xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp archives msdos comp os ms windows apps comp os ms windows misc newsgroups comp archives msdos comp os ms windows apps comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu moe ksu ksu edu osuunx ucc okstate edu constellation cs okstate edu yeoy from yeoy cs okstate edu yeo yek chong subject re is kermit available for windows references a4fm3b1w165w vicuna ocunix on ca message id apr27 cs okstate edu organization oklahoma state university date tue apr gmt lines from article a4fm3b1w165w vicuna ocunix on ca by steve frampton frampton vicuna ocunix on ca was wondering is the kermit package the actual package not yes in the usual ftp sites yek chong path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu moe ksu ksu edu kuhub cc ukans edu srini newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject win storm pc message id apr27 kuhub cc ukans edu from srini shannon tisl ukans edu srini seetharam date apr cst reply to srini shannon tisl ukans edu srini seetharam distribution world organization elec comp eng univ of kansas nntp posting host erlang tisl ukans edu originator srini erlang lines anyone have any info on the video sound card from sigma designs it is called win storm pc they also have another card called the legend lx any info would be appreciated incuding performance pricing and availability thanks srini path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu moe ksu ksu edu kuhub cc ukans edu parsifal umkc edu vax1 umkc edu edowdy newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject re win31 doublespace message id apr27 vax1 umkc edu from edowdy vax1 umkc edu date apr cst references hpwala wal hp com organization university of missouri kansas city nntp posting host vax1 umkc edu lines in article hpwala wal hp com chrisa hpwarr hp com chris almy writes doublespace although do not trust it for my hard disks sounds great for floppies the thouoght of having to mount the disk is anoying but something can deal with the problem arises when under windows is there way to mount and unmount while under windows or is this part of the upgrades soon to be available from other vendors chris can see why you would not trust it because it is safer than any previous compression programs it integrates into the kernal and makes it nearly impossible to delete newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu caen batcomputer munnari oz au titan pcies2 trl oz au gellert from gellert trl oz au dennis gellert subject re why is my mouse so jumpy ms mouse message id gellert trl oz au lines sender root trl oz au system privileged account organization telecom research references byu edu apr23 cti com date tue apr gmt in article apr23 cti com rlister cti com russell lister writes from rlister cti com russell lister subject re why is my mouse so jumpy ms mouse date fri apr gmt ecktons ucs byu edu sean eckton writes have microsoft serial mouse and am using mouse com was using think but switched to to see if it was any better vertical motion is nice and smooth but horizontal motion is so bad sometimes can click on something because my mouse jumps around can be moving the mouse to the right with relatively uniform motion and the mouse will move smoothly for bit then jump to the right then move smoothly for bit then jump again maybe this time to the left about inch this is crazy have never had so much trouble with mouse before anyone have any solutions does microsoft think they are what everyone should be just venting steam ve seen this problem several times it was always the result of the little rollers inside the mouse becomming dirty they are good at collecting grime the solution is simple remove the ball to reveal the two rollers carefully clean them and the ball dennis newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester galileo cc rochester edu ub zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet world paladin from paladin world std com thomas schlatter subject re dos window macros message id c65yqc fgi world std com organization the world public access unix brookline ma references c65gkq tb sunfish usd edu apr27 csd newshost stanford edu distribution usa date tue apr gmt lines in article apr27 csd newshost stanford edu herrod cs stanford edu stephen herrod writes does anyone know program that will record keyboard sequences that do in windowed dos box would like to have something that starts telnet program and then logs me into my accounts windows recorder doesn seem to be able to record the key sequences thanks steve think you would need dos macro program superkey by borland comes to mind don think windows is capable of sending keystrokes to dos window what you want to do sounds like security problem to me though tom paladin world std com newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net agate news ucdavis edu othello ucdavis edu ez003045 from ez003045 othello ucdavis edu james lee subject program manager problem message id c661c2 ha ucdavis edu sender usenet ucdavis edu news administrator organization university of california davis newsreader tin pl3 date tue apr gmt lines does anyone know how to configure dos app in progman so that only one instance of it can be running at time really appreciate some help on how to do this would prefer responses through email if it not big deal or at least through email as well as posting thank you james lee jelee hamlet ucdavis edu swear by my life and my love of it that will never live for the sake of another man nor ask another man to live for mine john galt atlas shrugged xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp sys ibm pc hardware comp os ms windows apps comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu caen batcomputer munnari oz au yoyo aarnet edu au news adelaide edu au kburg from kburg aelmg adelaide edu au kym burgemeister newsgroups comp sys ibm pc hardware comp os ms windows apps comp os ms windows misc subject re actix video card drivers for windows date apr gmt organization the university of adelaide lines distribution world message id kburg crackle references apr24 jarvis csri toronto edu nntp posting host crackle itd adelaide edu au keywords actix graphics accelerator in apr24 jarvis csri toronto edu wongda eecg toronto edu daniel wong writes am looking for the latest drivers for the actix graphics accelerator card the driver am currently using is version and doesn support more than colors in x768 mode even you have mb memory the bbs support for actix is unbelievable they are still using bps modem it will take you hours to download the drivers it hurts when you are calling long distance is there any ftp site that has collection of video drivers for windows btw anyone using this card and how do you like it so far good but where are these drivers daniel wong uoft anybody at actix listening upload the dang drivers to an ftp site pleeeeeeese cheers kym kym burgemeister department of mechanical engineering university of adelaide south australia ph facs mail to kburg aelmg adelaide edu au xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os msdos misc comp os ms windows misc comp sys ibm pc games newsgroups comp os msdos misc comp os ms windows misc comp sys ibm pc games path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu linac att princeton aisle princeton edu carlosn from phoenix princeton edu carlosn carlos niederstrasser subject ms mouse driver message id apr27 princeton edu followup to comp os msdos misc originator news nimaster sender news princeton edu usenet news system nntp posting host aisle princeton edu organization princeton university date tue apr gmt lines does anyone have the documentation for the ms mouse driver got it when got windows but my windows manual does not come with the documentation in particular need to know how to turn it off and how to speed it up outside windows the greater sensitivity is needed so can play various games esp wing carlos niederstrasser only two things are infinite princeton planetary society the universe and human stupidity and not sure about the former einstein carlosn phoenix princeton edu space phoenix princeton edu ad astra per ardua nostra path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu newsrelay iastate edu iscsvax uni edu holmes7000 from holmes7000 iscsvax uni edu newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject win icon help please message id apr27 iscsvax uni edu date apr organization university of northern iowa lines have win and downloaded several icons and bmp but can figure out how to change the wallpaper or use the icons any help would be appreciated thanx brando ps please mail me newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net wupost csus edu netcom com iis from iis netcom com international imaging syste subject postscript at dpi message id iisc66783 dv netcom com organization netcom on line communication services guest date wed apr gmt lines using windows printer driver would like to print to file with output as postscript file later would like to take this postscript file to machine with an attached hewlett packard laser printer and print the document at dots per inch resolution would like to use this method to print from wordperfect for windows and from an image processing program that can output images in postscript here the problem the windows postscript printer driver pscript drv doesn allow me to specify dpi in fact the setup dialog for this driver does have pull down menu for resolution but the only choice given in the menu is not really useful menu any ideas david arnstein arnstein iis sun com international imaging systems milpitas california newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel news udel edu darwin sura net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu eng ufl edu usenet cis ufl edu caen batcomputer munnari oz au newshost anu edu au csc canberra edu au news from pwb aerg canberra edu au paul blackman subject re workspace managers for win locations message id apr28 csc canberra edu au sender news csc canberra edu au organization university of canberra references r8omj jqj werple apana org au tactix tactix rain com apr27 bert eecs uic edu date wed apr gmt lines in article apr27 bert eecs uic edu you write cah tactix rain com chris huey writes jamie scuglia jamie zikzak apana org au wrote thanks to all those people who recommended workspace managers for windows found shareware workspace managers from australia ms windows archive monu6 cc monash edu au which mirrors some sites in the the three found were workspaces wspace zip review deleted workshift wrksft16 zip review deleted bigdesk and backmenu backdesk zip review deleted really appreciate this information however given that don have direct internet access which means don have archie access must resort to using ftpmail this means that need the site name and the directory where these workspace managers are located backdesk zip is on cica but not sure of the whole directory another to throw into the running is topdesk it is alsow on cica but not sure where it is more complicated then backdesk but ve found it to be more stable and more usefull recomend it to people who have already used virtual desktop oh yeh it free copyright microsoft and sanford staab carl zmola cicero spc uchicago edu ok here are some usefull applications and locations and other on cica or mirrors in the desktop directory wrksft16 zip wokshift graphical virtual desktop ver email author about version desk240 zip desktop tools for windows backmenu bigdesk later version than backdesk topdesk zip virtual windows for windows finder zip mac finder clone for windows works well with backmenu also look out for superbar due out soon it allows button bars to be added to almost any application paul blackman pwb science canberra edu au water research centre pwb aerg canberra edu au faculty of applied science university of canberra australia spend little love and get high lenny kravitz xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp protocols tcp ip ibmpc comp os ms windows misc comp os msdos apps path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu axa12 slip cwru edu ashok from ashok biochemistry cwru edu ashok aiyar newsgroups comp protocols tcp ip ibmpc comp os ms windows misc comp os msdos apps subject setting up slip client under dos and windows long date wed apr organization cwru school of medicine lines distribution comp message id ashok biochemistry cwru edu nntp posting host axa12 slip dialin cwru edu summary how to get slip going on your pc keywords slip phone cslipper winqvt net have been posting monthly how to setup slip client on pc posts for few months lots of work and imminent graduation have come in the way of posting one of these for march or earlier this month for which apologize this file includes information on writing script for university of minnesota phone and also batch file hack that lets you use other packet drivers with phone for additions modifications and corrections can be reached at ashok biochemistry cwru edu best wishes ashok begin slip txt based on my experiences on setting up slip under dos and windows here are my comments on setting up slip in this environment thank the trumpet beta testers and the cwru slip beta testers for their comments configuring your modem turn off dtr at d0 have to disable dtr because the communication program that use to dial my slip server qmodem drops dtr when exit the program and therefore hangs up the line if you use program like kermit or conex to establish the slip connection then this need not be done these programs do not necessarily hangup the line when you exit note if you use univ of minn phone to dial and establish slip connection you do not need to turn off dtr dial and establish the slip connection first this can be done automatically if you use program like phone from the university of minnesota which will dial and establish slip connection then load the slip packet driver the phone scripting language is simple and phone scripts can be easily written to configure phone to work with other slip server in addition while the only packet driver that phone works with is umslip currently it is easy to write batch file hack that lets phone work with other packet drivers there is section on phone in the document with both script and batch file examples configuring the slip drivers there are five slip packet drivers commonly available cslipper exe peter tattam compressed slip driver slipper exe peter tattam slip driver slip8250 com crynwr driver like phil burn modified driver ethersl com crynwr driver ethernet simulation over slip umslip com univ of minnesota driver based on slip8250 of these four vastly prefer slipper exe over slip8250 com or ethersl com for the following reasons it is much faster even though my modem has just uart while using etherslip slip8250 umslip myself and several others have noticed that the pc clock gets messed up after performing long ftp transfer it supports pktmux when used in ethernet simulation mode when used in ethernet simulation mode slipper seem to work with every tcp ip application that have tested it with instructions for slipper exe and you do not use phone load slipper in your autoexec bat file according to instructions for instance if you have bis modem on com1 slipper com1 vec baud if you use dos tcp ip applications in win dos boxes then use the double ended packet driver shim winpkt com this creates virtual packet driver at x60 dos applications in native mode dos applications in windows dos boxes and windows applications can all use this virtual driver at x60 winpkt com x60 x62 if you use qvt net load pktint com next qvt net is configured in qvtnet ini to use the interrupt at x60 pktint com instructions for slip8250 com try getting version slip driver philip burns of northwestern university has modified slip8250 com driver that is better at hardware handshaking this driver is distributed along with nupop load the driver after establishing the slip connection my modem is bis modem on com1 so here is how would load the driver slip8250 x62 slip x03f8 as discussed above if you use dos tcp ip applications in windows dos boxes you probably want to use winpkt com winpkt com x60 x62 if you use winqvt net load pktint com pktint com instructions for ethersl com if you choose to use ethersl com instead of slip8250 com the instructions are exactly the same with one crucial difference you will have to delete the line device vcd from the enh section of system ini this will interfere with running regular windows comm applications such as crosstalk and you will get lots of dropped characters etc in these applications this is therefore not recommended etherslip would be loaded as ethersl x62 x03f8 configuring windows make the following modifications to the system ini file enh section list all your com ports with their addresses and interrupts com1base f8 com1irq com2base f8 com2irq com3base e8 com3irq this can also be done from within windows control panel but double clicking on the ports icon ii give the port to which your modem is attached generous com buffer com1buffer iii change the com port autoassign value for the com port that you wish to use for your modem to zero this is the amount of time that windows waits in seconds before handing control of that com port to another application if you use winqvt net and then want to switch from one session to another and this value is at the default value of seconds you are will get gpf and windows will crash com1autoassign this can also be done from within windows control panel double click on enhanced and under device contention set the device contention for the com port your modem is on to never warn additional notes what to do if you are assigned different ip address for each slip session am fortunate in that our campus slip server assigns each user permanent ip address so do not have worry about editing qvtnet ini each time that establish slip connection if you are assigned new ip address on every occasion that you dial in please try to use bootp aware software and let bootp do the configuration for you however qvtnet is not bootp aware and rarp will not work over slip connection to get qvtnet working in situation such as this you must do the following edit the qvtnet ini file let the net section look like this net name ip netmask or whatever is appropriate for you arptime packet vector or whatever is appropriate save the changes and then write protect this file attrib qvtnet ini start your slip connection and remember the name and ip address that you are assigned each time you start qvt net the general configuration dialog box will open enter the name and ip address and you were assigned for that session click on ok and you should be up and running the changes you make will not be saved as qvtnet ini is write protected more elegant solution to the problem of dynamic slip ip address assignment is provided by victor menayang victor ccwf cc utexas edu victor uses the program bootpq to semi automate qvtnet preparation bootpq is used to inquire the assigned ip which is then saved to file called myip another file noip is essentially complete qvtnet ini file that lacks the ip address in the final step myip and noip are copied into single qvtnet ini file an example of victor batch file is provided below slipper com2 pktint com bootpq ip myip bootpq my ip is copy net myip noip com qvtnet qvtnet ini del myip echo off echo echo ready to run winqvtnet for questions and more details about bootpq please contact victor menayang victor ccwf cc utexas edu qpc software is attempting to add bootp capability to winqvt net how do you use pktmux over slip pktmux will not work over the slip8250 com packet driver and crashes immediately if used with ethersl com pktmux will work with slipper exe when slipper is used in ethernet simulation mode an example of this configuration is shown below the latest release of pktmux is and it is important that you use this version if you want to use virtual packet drivers with applications like trumpet for windows to be released very shortly from autoexec bat lh slipper com1 vec baud ether packet driver lh pktmux pktmux loaded for virtual packet drivers lh pktdrv first virtual packet driver used for qvt net lh pktint com qvt net pktint com pktdrv pktdrv for use in native dos or wintrumpet additional virtual packet drivers can be loaded directly from within windows dos boxes for example my pif file to load popmail is directed to the file popmail bat this is what popmail bat reads like pktdrv loads virtual packet driver at x60 cd popmail popmail cd pktdrv unloads the packet driver at x60 exit causes the dos window to close have similar batch files that load other dos tcp ip applications like pc gopher it is my experience that pktmux works fine even if the virtual packet drivers in two independent virtual dos sessions are loaded at the same software interrupt for example within two different dos boxes one for popmail and the other for gopher the virtual packet driver pktdrv is loaded at x60 in each instance how much does pktmux degrade the performance of slipper have bis bis modem in running windows with reasonably fast video card ati graphics ultra under these conditions when have three virtual packet drivers loaded and being used as follows driver at x7f qvtnet ftp client session driver at x60 in one dos window cutcp tn3270 session driver at x60 in another dos window trumpet for dos get ftp transfer rates of kb sec while transferring compressed files this rate is comparable to that which get with slip8250 loaded as packet driver and where single tcp ip session is active if cslipper is used packet driver and single session is active get transfer rates of kb sec on the same files while there is about degradation in the performance of slipper for me the benefits of being able to use pktmux outweigh the performance hit slipper and ethernet simulation mode in ethernet simulation mode slipper ver works with all the applications that have tested it with one or two applications that required ethernet simulation balked at slipper but even these rare problems have been resolved with ver when slipper is used in ethernet simulation mode and used with pktmux get some an error message in the qvtnet console window that reads ip incorrect packet type or ip bad version number this does not seem to prevent qvtnet from functioning although cannot comment on loss of performance what can you do if your dos tcp ip application does not work with slipper in ethernet simulation mode in the rare event that you find package that does not work with slipper in ethernet simulation mode first contact the author peter tattam peter psychnet psychol utas edu au and let him know chances are that he can fix it in the meanwhile you can try the following do not know if it is kosher but it worked when had problems with slipper ver slipper is loaded at x62 as described above under the pktmux section load ethersl com at x60 run the application and then terminate ethersl com this also works within windows virtual dos boxes however packet driver like ethersl can be used in only one virtual dos box at time so for example here is my batch file to run grateful med medical reference retrieval program developed at the national library of medicine ethersl x60 x03f8 loads etherslip cd gm6 search cd termin x60 terminates etherslip exit closes the dos box and returns me to windows if you use this method be cautious about one thing don have any active pktmux dos sessions open at the same time after closing the ethersl window you can run your pktmux dos sessions with no problem btw the example above grateful med works with no problems with slipper ver phone script files the documentation that accompany phone provide good instructions on writing script files to get phone to dial slip servers other than the university of minnesota server for example here is script that use to dial cisco server at the university that attend background to start slip connection dial our terminal server and login with username and password after doing so start slip session with the following command slip username slip dialin cwru edu followed by my password again here then is the relevant portion of the phone cmd script file cwru ts2 slip login script by ashok aiyar last revised procedure host cwru login timeout cwru ts2 terminal server is not responding message cwru ts2 slip login script version message waiting for slip server to respond quiet on expect verification message request for user verification received from cwru ts2 message sending your user name and password quiet off expect username send expect password private send reject access denied your user name or password was not accepted timeout slip server did not respond to your validation request expect cwru ts2 send slip timeout slip server did not respond to slip command expect ip hostname or address send slip dialin cwru edu timeout slip server did not respond to hostname reject bad ip address incorrect hostname expect password send reject access denied password not accepted timeout expect header compression will match your system message login to cwru slip server successful wait endprocedure host cwru login procedure host cwru logout nothing special needs to be done to logout endprocedure host cwru logout end of script file how to use packet drivers other than umslip with phone the quick answer there is no clean way below is batch file hack that wrote to use phone with other packet drivers in this example the packet driver is peter tattam cslipper to use batch file like this you must know the parameters with which you plan to use the packet driver interrupt vector baud rate port address and irq this batch file requires umslip com cslipper exe and termin com to be in the same directory or in your path all that the batch file does is to let you dial the slip connection using phone load the appropriate packet driver hangup the connection and unload the driver when you are done being cwruslip bat echo off rem this batch file is an ugly hack of of minn slip bat rem awaiting version of slipper that can directly interact rem with phone rem cwruslip bat file is used with phone exe to start slip rem connection on cwru ts2 rem last modified ashok aiyar echo off cls goto start start if goto help if help goto help if setup goto setup if dial goto forced if hangup goto forceh if quit goto forceh if help goto help if setup goto setup if dial goto forced if quit goto forceh goto bogus goto unload forceh termin x60 umslip nul phone force hangup goto unload slipper termin x60 rem the following line must be changed to reflect the com port rem irq baud rate and software interrupt lh packet cslipper com1 vec baud ether goto end forced termin x60 umslip nul phone force dial goto slipper setup termin x60 umslip nul phone setup goto help unload termin x60 goto end bogus echo is not valid command echo try cwruslip help for list of valid commands echo help echo echo case western reserve university slip setup echo using univ of minnesota phone echo echo cwruslip setup modem settings phone number username etc echo echo cwruslip dial dial and establish the slip connection echo cwruslip quit hangup the phone and unload the driver echo cwruslip help this screen echo end end cwruslip bat where to get what peter tattam programs are archived at ftp utas edu au slipper and the trumpet set of programs winqvt net is generally archived at most windows ftp sites including ftp cica indiana edu ncsa telnet is archived at ftp ncsa uiuc edu nupop is archived at ftp acns nwu edu popmail pc slipdisk phone and pc gopher are archived at boombox micro umn edu end slip txt ashok aiyar mail ashok biochemistry cwru edu department of biochemistry tel cwru school of medicine cleveland ohio fax xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os ms windows programmer tools comp os ms windows programmer misc comp os ms windows misc comp os ms windows setup comp os ms windows programmer win32 comp os ms windows apps path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net ra cs umd edu mojo eng umd edu hrensin from hrensin eng umd edu howard rensin newsgroups comp os ms windows programmer tools comp os ms windows programmer misc comp os ms windows misc comp os ms windows setup comp os ms windows programmer win32 comp os ms windows apps subject re please refresh on internet access to compuserve date apr gmt organization project glue university of maryland college park lines message id rkrvvinnf7d mojo eng umd edu references c62kxd mf9 newsserver technet sg syshtg gsusgi1 gsu edu nntp posting host delta eng umd edu in article syshtg gsusgi1 gsu edu syshtg gsusgi2 gsu edu tom gillman writes cheong solomon technet sg scstech admin writes sometime ago there are some discussions on gaining compuserve access thru the internet but seem to misplace those articles can someone please refresh me where which site can telnet to to gain access to send message to compuserve user via internet mail enter the mail mode and address your receiver as follows compuserve com the number is the receiver compuserve number if the users number contains comma or anything other than period change it to period newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl world cant from cant world std com jim cant subject msdos prompt problem message id c687n5 ab8 world std com organization the world public access unix brookline ma date thu apr gmt lines am having really bothersome problem using the msdos prompt in windows to open dos box when am done with the dos box cant get back to windows if do alt enter to shrink the box or use exit to close it the screen goes black and have to control alt delete until kill windows get couple of screens about app not responding think things are still alive under the black screen because if alt tab to cycle through the running apps get flashes of text but then the black returns this persists even if the machine is powered on and off am working with an app developed using borland application frameworks and it seems to work fine hardware is with meg ram not on network video is tseng vga dos reinstalled windows couple of time but the problem comes back am using temporary swapping for virtual memory would really really appreciate any hints anyone might offer thanks jim cant xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os ms windows misc comp windows ms newsgroups comp os ms windows misc comp windows ms path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com darwin sura net seas gwu edu louray from louray seas gwu edu michael panayiotakis subject re what does the bmp format mean message id apr28 seas gwu edu organization george washington university references robertsa unix2 tcd ie date wed apr gmt lines in article robertsa unix2 tcd ie robertsa unix2 tcd ie andrew roberts writes what exactly does the windows bitmap format look like mean how is the data stored width height no of colours bitmap data couldn find anything in ths user manual is there any other reference material which would give me this information thanks andrew well this is only guess if it goes by the true meaning of bit map then it holds where pixel number in th ex direction pixel number in the dir colour pe michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace uunet seas gwu edu louray how do make ms windows grp file reflect hd directory well ain always right but ve never been wrong gd newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu swrinde gatech concert decwrl world paladin from paladin world std com thomas schlatter subject newsgroup archive message id c66diu world std com organization the world public access unix brookline ma date wed apr gmt lines is this newsgroup archived anywhere beyond the normal expiration dates say for the last months or more thanks tom paladin world std com xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os msdos apps comp os msdos misc comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net agate netsys pagesat news cerf net crash ryptyde jdriver newsgroups comp os msdos apps comp os msdos misc comp os ms windows misc subject is smartdrv exe causing bad sectors on my hd from jdriver netlink cts com john driver message id uo6o3b3w165w netlink cts com date tue apr pdt organization netlink online communications san diego ca lines am having something very unusual happen first some background on my system have mitsubishi meg hard drive and am running smartdrv the version that comes with windows on it rarely use windows use program called disk technician gold v1 to do diagnostics live time on my hard drive it works by having device driver detect whenever more than one read is necessary for file or if there is anything else is wrong with it and minor problems are fully checked out upon rebooting my hard drive is notorious for bad sectors usually end up with new bad sectors week here what happened ran program and dtg broke in with an emergency warning and recommended reboot it gave me this message twice before the program was fully loaded exited the program and did just this dtg went through its bootup process examining for new errors etc and screen popped up and said something about sectors for brief period of time then went back to the program executed it again and the exact same error was detected rebooted and tried again and the same error happened again so removed dtg from memory and went to the program to see if could detect anything wrong sure enough there was number of read attempts so rebooted and reloaded dtg but removed the cache executed the program no read errors either audible or detected by dtg quit the program loaded the cache and ran the program again the errors were detected ok so the errors are there and dtg detects but doesn fix them when the cache is loaded when the cache is not loaded there are no errors so to see if the cache was interfering with any other files went into xtree gold and tagged all files and searched them for random string in other words wanted the program to completely read every file on my hard drive before got through the dtg had detected at least six errors and recommended reboot does anybody have any idea why smartdrv is causing misreads on my hard drive oh there are exactly two misreads per file and in about every files are affected originally posted this message to disk technician corp system but figured someone out in netland may know enough about smartdrv to help me out internet jdriver netlink cts com john driver uucp ryptyde netlink jdriver netlink online communications public access in san diego ca path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net gatech rutgers dmdscs viamar kmembry from kmembry viamar uucp kirk membry newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject re ms windows access for the blind message id k4t2ra obh107h viamar uucp date apr gmt references mtrottie emr1 emr ca apr22 cci632 cci com apr22 seas gwu edu reply to rutgers viamar kmembry organization private system lines in apr22 seas gwu edu louray seas gwu edu michael panayiotakis writes at the micro oft display at fose there were few computers running windows and win apps for the blind think didn pay much attention to it but it was there it seems that particular program designed for blind people is more important than trying to interface windows with way for blind people to use it if someone made voice recognition multimedia sound oriented program it would probably been more effective don know what the original purpose of interfacing windows was for the person who posted the question though kirk membry our age is the age of industry rutgers viamar kmembry alexander rodchenko newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc sdd hp com portal claebaur from claebaur shell portal com tony annese subject re trouble with sound blaster pro drivers message id c68aq7 unix portal com keywords sbp sender news unix portal com nntp posting host jobe organization portal communications company voice data references kaz vincent1 iastate edu date thu apr gmt lines in article kaz vincent1 iastate edu kaz iastate edu errington shroud writes recently windows has starting giving me the error sound blaster pro requires newer version of windows it has worked correctly for long time and don know what the problem could be thanks had this problem when initially installed my sound blaster pro and here what the tech support told me they told me to look for the files that are stated in the readme file from the win31 subdirectory of the soudblaster directory now look in the system ini file and if any of them say device xxxxxxx than change it to device xxxxxxx thats should work was your system ini file erased for some reason that would be the only reason that would think that windoes is giving you the error now tony annese claebaur shell portal com or claebaur cup portal com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl waikato ac nz aukuni ac nz cs18 cs aukuni ac nz kwan1 newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject hiragana katakana tt fonts message id apr29 cs aukuni ac nz from kwan1 cs aukuni ac nz keith stuart wansbrough date thu apr gmt organization computer science dept university of auckland keywords hiragana katakana truetype japanese lines newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject hiragana katakana tt fonts keywords hiragana katakana truetype japanese where can obtain truetype hiragana and katakana japanese phonetic character fonts note can receive mail at the address in the header but cannot send kw xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp org sug comp os bsd misc comp os bsd questions comp os misc comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net wupost udel bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu msus1 msus edu mhd moorhead msus edu rustad newsgroups comp org sug comp os bsd misc comp os bsd questions comp os misc comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc subject survey pros cons oop message id apr28 msus1 msus edu from rustad mhd moorhead msus edu date apr reply to rustad mhd moorhead msus edu organization moorhead state university moorhead mn nntp posting host lines object oriented programming survey this survey is meant to find the current relationship between programmers and object oriented programming please return this survey before may return to rustad mhd moorhead msus edu would you like copy of the published statistics yes no your occupation years of programming experience programming languages you re associated with years of oop experience your preferred oop language is there an advantage to oop yes no is oop coding faster than traditional programming yes no is oop maintenance quicker and easier than traditional yes no or opinion comments pros cons with object oriented programming path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu cleveland freenet edu ak333 from ak333 cleveland freenet edu martin linsenbigler newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject standard and enhanced question date apr gmt organization case western reserve university cleveland oh usa lines message id rl4u7 ofg usenet ins cwru edu reply to ak333 cleveland freenet edu martin linsenbigler nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu why is win sometimes so finicky have new dell dx2 mhz megs ram windows was working just great had bus mouse and mother board problem dell replaced the mouse gave me newer mouse driver for windows and replaced the motherboard just prior to this problem windows would only load up every other time would get the logo and either it would go on into windows or lock up this was very consistent every other time now with the new motherboard and all it still does the same thing the computer is less than one month old at first it worked fine can get into windows each time now with the win command this forces standard mode things seem to run slower mainly use windows apps but in standard mode there is no virtual mem plus it is slower re loaded windows it still does the same thing should first delete everything in all windows dir did not because have so much added in sub dir etc really puzzling why enhanced mode would not load each time but consistently every other time standard mode each time any thoughts or comments ya artin this communication is sent by artin university of arizona tucson ak333 cleveland freenet edu mlinsenb ccit arizona edu mlinsenb arizvms death has been dead for about years follow the king of kings newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net agate ames news hawaii edu wiliki eng hawaii edu yuan from yuan wiliki eng hawaii edu maw ying yuan subject replacement for program manager and file manager message id c68g1g juj news hawaii edu sender news news hawaii edu organization university of hawaii college of engineering date thu apr gmt lines hi there could someone please suggest one of the better shareware replacements for win3 program manager and file manager and which ftp site are they located at thanks in advance for mail response yuan wiliki eng hawaii edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net news cac psu edu psuvm ucf1vm cda90038 organization university of central florida computer services date tue apr edt from mark woodruff cda90038 ucf1vm bitnet message id cda90038 ucf1vm bitnet newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject why not using dos anymore lines ve been running dos for about month was generally impressed with the improvements the multiple boot configurations were great the new commands were nice and doublespace worked fine twice as slow for large data transfers twice as fast for small with smartdrv until now this morning at am while was working on my research paper had to reboot hung dos program that did no disk from within windows when my machine finished rebooting found my windows directory and about two thirds of my other directories were irreversibly corrupted cannot afford problems like this returning to dos mark ve also noticed bad sector errors from doublespace where none should exist newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet world marlow from marlow world std com mark marlow subject re video cards with bnc connectors message id c68nys dn2 world std com organization the world public access unix brookline ma references c62zzl ms uky edu date thu apr gmt lines sam ms uky edu mike mills writes hello just recently bought nec fg in order to get the highest possible quality and refresh rates like to know if there are any accelerator cards with bnc connectors as opposed to the usual sub connector do not know of any vga type cards that have bnc outputs but extron sells vga to bnc cable set that works good with my fg if you are trying to optimize the display with good video card try contacting get nine use and like the level card thanks for any information mike mills mail sam ms uky edu rutgers uunet ukma sam uk math sciences dept mike ukpr uky edu work home mark marlow marlow world std com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu menudo uh edu jpunix mwk usenet newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject help with changing startup logo message id aa01739 fidonet org from doelle p26 f3333 n106 z1 fidonet org doelle date tue apr sender usenet fidonet org lines hello brad monday april brad smalling wrote to crosspost all bs for vga card these are the correct files but you can just copy them bs back and expect it to work you have to create new win com file try bs the command you will have to worry about what directories each file is in bs since don know your setup bs copy win cnf vgalogo lgo vgalogo rle win com bs grabbed this from supercharging windows by judd robbins great book bs this is also how you can put your own logo into the windows startup bs screen an rle file is just specially compressed bmp file brad what is the procedure used to specially compress the bmp file would love to use some of my bmp files have created as logo screen thanks chris origin chris doelle f3333 n106 z1 fidonet org path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc sdd hp com caen batcomputer munnari oz au sol deakin oz au russ from russ deakin oz au russ sharp newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject true type font problem repost please help date apr gmt organization deakin university victoria australia lines distribution world message id rl939 gob sol deakin oz au nntp posting host ariel eng deakin oz au word doesn show the period centred character to indicate spaces if use the ttfonts from coreldraw our editors need to be able to see how many spaces are in text but the character displayed is large hollow box they overlap each other and characters on each side which is useless believe the character used by w4w is the period centred this character shows up with the windows charmap display as the hollow box which tends to confirm this have edited the corel font with fontmonger and changing the font graphics for the character makes no difference to the font output in charmap or w4w altering the paragraph or cedilla does alter their font graphics displayed however is the w4w character used to indicate spaces the period centred character has anyone been able to get this character displayed from coreldraw ttf russ sharp russ deakin edu au ph fax deakin university school of engineering technology geelong australia path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net sol ctr columbia edu caen batcomputer munnari oz au sol deakin oz au russ from russ deakin oz au russ sharp newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject windows zip unzip date apr gmt organization deakin university victoria australia lines distribution world message id rl9b6 h3c sol deakin oz au nntp posting host ariel eng deakin oz au we are using pkzip v2 and am interested to hear from people who have used one of the many windows programs that call these which ones are available and does any one stand out amongst the rest is there full windows version that does not call the dos pkzip pkunzip commands russ sharp russ deakin edu au ph fax deakin university school of engineering technology geelong australia path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu malgudi oar net caen batcomputer munnari oz au ariel ucs unimelb edu au ucsvc ucs unimelb edu au lugb lux cs416530 newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject boot up sometimes fails message id apr28 lugb latrobe edu au from cs416530 lux latrobe edu au matthew gillard date wed apr gmt sender news lugb latrobe edu au usenet news system organization la trobe university lines sometimes when boot up windows after the windows logo comes up it han gs am using dos and doublespace and meg temp swap file on an uncompressed drive but when press the reset button on the computer windows boots up fine why is this is it dos matthew gillard blessed are they who run around computer systems engineering in circles for they shall be la trobe university known as wheels xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os ms windows misc comp windows ms newsgroups comp os ms windows misc comp windows ms path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu caen batcomputer munnari oz au uniwa cujo info ikellyp from ikellyp info paul kelly subject re what does the bmp format mean message id apr29 cujo curtin edu au followup to comp os ms windows misc comp windows ms sender news cujo curtin edu au news manager organization curtin university of technology newsreader tin version pl9 references robertsa unix2 tcd ie date thu apr gmt lines andrew roberts robertsa unix2 tcd ie wrote what exactly does the windows bitmap format look like mean how is the data stored width height no of colours bitmap data couldn find anything in ths user manual is there any other reference material which would give me this information thanks andrew try the windows multimedia development kit it has most of the file formats defined path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel wupost howland reston ans net ira uka de scsing switch ch news unige ch ugun2b ugun2a royer newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject re stealth video drivers message id apr28 uni2a unige ch from royer uni2a unige ch date apr references doug sun sws uiuc edu organization university of geneva switzerland lines in article doug sun sws uiuc edu doug sun sws uiuc edu doug ward writes recently purchased diamond stealth video card and received the wrong drivers does anyone know where can ftp the windows video drivers for the stealth tried the drivers at cica and they don work the right drivers are on the diamond bbs but the file is almost meg and it would take while to download them at baud any information would be appreciated please contact me at doug sun sws uiuc edu thank you doug ward have the same problem with diamond stealth vram card daniel xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os ms windows setup comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet digex com digex com not for mail from farley access digex com charles farley newsgroups comp os ms windows setup comp os ms windows misc subject where to get ati card video drivers fonts date apr organization express access online communications usa lines distribution usa message id rju4p hah access digex net nntp posting host access digex net summary where to get ati card video drivers fonts keywords ati windows does anyone know where can ftp or somehow else acquire the latest video drivers fonts for an ati svga adapter the only floppy have is for windows does anyone know if ati is still in business thanks farley access digex com charles farley average iq of calgary board of ed employee newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net news centerline com uunet math fu berlin de news belwue de ifi news from huebner informatik uni stuttgart de ralf huebner subject driver wanted message id apr28 ifi informatik uni stuttgart de sender news informatik uni stuttgart de reply to huebner informatik uni stuttgart de organization ipvr university of stuttgart germany date wed apr gmt lines hello looking for driver for an ibm color ink jet printer any pointers are welcome thanks in advance ralf huebner informatik uni stuttgart de xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os ms windows misc comp windows ms newsgroups comp os ms windows misc comp windows ms path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu uunet mcsun news funet fi ousrvr oulu fi pjsinc from pjsinc phoenix oulu fi petri salonen subject re what does the bmp format mean message id apr29 ousrvr oulu fi followup to comp os ms windows misc comp windows ms sender news ousrvr oulu fi organization university of oulu finland newsreader tin version pl9 references apr28 seas gwu edu date thu apr gmt lines michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu wrote in article robertsa unix2 tcd ie robertsa unix2 tcd ie andrew roberts writes what exactly does the windows bitmap format look like mean how is the data stored width height no of colours bitmap data couldn find anything in ths user manual is there any other reference material which would give me this information well this is only guess if it goes by the true meaning of bit map then it holds where pixel number in th ex direction pixel number in the dir colour come on fellows the format is quite plainly explained in the manuals it in the programmer reference volume messages structures and macros msc dev kit for should be also in the borland manuals pages depending what you need first there is the bitmapfileheader struct then the bitmapinfo which contains the bitmapinfoheader and the rgbquad and then the bitmap data and there is also example among the example files ms sdk hope this helps yes do have some prior knowledge in this there is nothing dangerous in these dragons they are totally harmless but my opinion is that kicking them might not be the right way to test it so shut up and run pjsinc sunrise oulu fi pjsinc phoenix oulu fi pjsinc tolsun oulu fi if it possible that there are some opinions above they must be all mine xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os ms windows apps comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu pitt edu gatech usenet ins cwru edu agate headwall stanford edu csd newshost stanford edu xenon stanford edu kayman from kayman xenon stanford edu robert kayman newsgroups comp os ms windows apps comp os ms windows misc comp os msdos misc subject summary canon bj200 vs hp deskjet message id apr29 csd newshost stanford edu date apr gmt sender news csd newshost stanford edu organization computer science department stanford university lines hello again about week and one half ago posted query looking for people feelings on the inkjet family of printers specifically comparison between the canon bj200 bubblejet and the hewlett packard deskjet many people asked me to post the summary account of all the postings and mail received below is my original query and the responses received have not deleted any part of the responses only the headers and signatures so you can extract what you find necessary some people asked me for an unbiased account however the very nature of the question suggests favoritism and biased comments you must extract the information you believe unbiased and fair representation of each printer there are wide range of comments each has its own value there was no clear winner some like the bj200 especially its price performance ratio others preferred the durability and reliability of the deskjet the original inkjet with proven drivers and solid background two new inkjet printers have drawn some attention new printer to be introduced by hewlett packard later this year around summertime and an addition to the epson product line their first inkjet you will find that after the initial purchase the costs of re filling or replacing the ink cartridges are about the same this largely depends on where you purchase the re fills or replacements so shop around first since this aspect will most likely dominate the cost of your printer no one mentioned approx how many sheets each ink cartridge will print but suspect they are roughly equal at about sheets laser printers will do sheets per toner cartridge well that brief research summary of my personal research enjoy hello fellow netters am asking for your collected wisdom to help me decide which printer should purchase the canon bj200 bubblejet vs the hp deskjet thought rather than trust the salesperson would benefit more from relying on those who use these printers daily and use them to their fullest potential and figure all of you will know their benefits and pitfalls better than any salesperson now would greatly appreciate any information you could render on the dpi of the canon bubblejet vs the hewlett packard deskjet dpi which is faster is there noticeable print quality difference particularly in graphics which will handle large documents better pages or more any personal experience on either will be appreciated here which works better under windows any driver problems etc cost of memory font packages toner cartridges etc basically your personal experiences with either of these machines is highly desirable both good and bad well bought the bj about month ago at the start of their rebate program on that printer it ends and bought it from computer discount warehouse because their price of couldn be beat anywhere looked and think it hot printer just using regular copier paper produced fantastic results just in high quality mode compared the output of micrografx designer legal size drawing with pt type done on my bj with the same drawing printed on an hp laserjet iid and was amazed how well could read the small print on the bj printing speed was several seconds faster on the bj which is amazing considering that the hp has ram installed measured the time from when the printer first indicated it was receiving data as used print manager in windows showed the output to several people at work and one manager bought one immediately for his office and two other engineers placed their orders too if you need cdw phone number it delivery to ny was two days good luck craig witkowski ceng51 maccvm corp mot com motorola communications electronics inc glen rock nj own deskjet performance isn spectacular under windows using truetype fonts but neither is the canon from what have seen quality for the hp is very much dependent on paper quality on standard photo copy paper the characters have slightly frayed edges but on better quality distinction type paper things look better for most applications find copy paper fine still better than dot matrix comes with windows driver which seems to by pass print manager has few intelli fonts which are hp scaleable fonts probably faster than truetype but haven really tried them out can get ram font cartridges but unless the speed of truetype is problem wouldn bother the ram cartridges can be used as buffer soft fonts only for graphics bmp images etc the hp can be put into dither mode via the hp supplied win driver there number of dither options such as scatter pattern etc the manual gives recommendations depending on the type of image being printed text is not so good in this mode problem arises when you have document which contains both graphic and text the range of tones for graphic images isn brilliant but think that is more of limitation with inkjet printers in general from what have seen the canon is similar in most respects however printer definitely worth looking at is the new inkjet from epson this printer is faster cheaper and capable of producing laser like quality on normal copier paper can remember the model lx something think purchased my hp days before the epson was released here the introductory price on the epson was the same as the hp here in new zealand about month ago got canon bj200 absolutely love it it is incredibly fast except for printing from pspice don know if you ever do stuff with that or not most of the stuff print is either from microsoft word for windows or just plain text the only problems ve had are printing headers footers the printer freaked out and printing on cheap paper lots of streaks normal copy paper works great with it you can only tell it not laser printed by holding it oh less than twelve inches from your face that is if you re nearsighted like me the printer comes with its own driver for windows have no other complaints the printer also can act just like some epson or another for those archaic software packages that haven written driver for it yet the teeny weeny footprint is real plus too and if you purchase it between now and may you get rebate from canon bought mine from store called compusa and the price now is have friend who has the hp you are looking at it also prints very well and everyone has drivers for it but it is very slow hope helped dpi sure looks great heather stehman in article apr19 schbbs mot com ceng51 maccvm corp mot com craig witkowski writes in message apr18 csd newshost stanford edu kayman csd stanford edu robert kayman writes hello fellow netters am asking for your collected wisdom to help me decide which printer should purchase the canon bj200 bubblejet vs the hp deskjet thought rather than trust the salesperson would benefit more from relying on those who use these printers daily and use them to their fullest potential and figure all of you will know their benefits and pitfalls better than any salesperson various questions deleted well bought the bj about month ago at the start of their rebate program on that printer it ends and bought it from computer discount warehouse because their price of couldn be beat anywhere looked and think it hot printer just using regular copier paper produced fantastic results just in high quality mode compared the output of micrografx designer legal size drawing with pt type done on my bj with the same drawing printed on an hp laserjet iid and was amazed how well could read the small print on the bj printing speed was several seconds faster on the bj which is amazing considering that the hp has ram installed measured the time from when the printer first indicated it was receiving data as used print manager in windows guess have some experience with both have bj at work and deskjet at home prefer the deskjet the printing speed and quality are similar tested both with text and graphics before buying the deskjet for home the feature that sets the deskjet apart is the driver support in so many applications the bj ends up emulating the epson lq or ibm proprinter to get it to work with many non windows apps and this will be the case for long time the design is superior if you just want to use cut paper the deskjet is quieter and the ink cartridges are quite bit cheaper due to the number of deskjets out there in comparision to the bjs just my worth mike mattix agricultural group of monsanto box luling la internet address dmmatt bigez monsanto com yes there is the landscape mode printing problem but it does not present problem in windows as the windows printer driver handles the translation actually thought of some other points after posted the note the deskjet has an unprintable area of approximately inch around the paper the bubblejet does not you are right about the graphics resolutions tested the printers with the applications had access to wordperfect harvard graphics wingif paintshop pro and paintbrush and could not tell difference in fact one of the hp deskjet windows drivers gives you significant control over the contrast and density of the printer hence controlling the amount of ink you put down the bubblejet did not had no imaging software to test the printers with and so had no comparision there finally wanted sheet feeding in that configuration the bubblejet cost approximately more than the deskjet went through pretty thorough evaluation and chose the deskjet when spent my own money btw am replacing the bj with deskjet at work this month anyway regards mike mattix ag group of monsanto luling la spent some time comparing the two we ended up getting the bubblejet bj versus the hp our reasons were the hp seemed to have worse banding than the canon dpi versus we felt we could see the difference price canon has rebate program going on at the moment the bj was our choice over the bj ex we could have pages in the bj feeder the bj ex holds only pages think as you can see up to pages on the bj we haven done anything big with the bj but its performance seems reasonable under windows know that the microsoft bbs has newer windows driver than comes with the printer but don know how it compares also the driver included with the printer is canon whereas don know where the microsoft bbs one comes from microsoft hope this helps thomas frauenhofer wa2yyw tvf cci com uunet uupsi cci632 tvf tvf cs rit edu mandlebratwurst the meal that eats itself altough sometimes also salesperson if not suppost to study would recommend to buy the bj200 the printing quality is bit better but you you ve got much more possiblities don forget the hp engine is at least years on the marked the canon engine witch is also used in other new bubblejet printers like the epson ones is quite recently available now would greatly appreciate any information you could render on the dpi of the canon bubblejet vs the hewlett packard deskjet dpi which is faster is there noticeable print quality difference particularly in graphics which will handle large documents better ve seen during short demonstration from someone who tryed to sell me canon printers times the same picture one printed with the bj200 one with the canon the other with the hp and there was difference in printing quality the canon was bit better greetz kris when we decided we needed quiet printers in our hospital we looked to inkjet printers they have near laser quality speed and they are quiet we use both hp deskjets and the canon bj prefer the paper handling qualities of the deskjets but feel the canons have superior print quality the ideal would be canon with sheet feeder however did end up buying deskjet for home use got too good deal anyway we are using canons in high volume areas and they are holding up very well out of deskjets and bj have only had one problem with deskjet and that was taken care of very quickly by hp nate whenever buy anything look at what the experts say pick out the top few and then buy on whatever criteria are the most apt ve been unusually flush lately no begging letter please and so ve done this few times including about four months ago with inkjet printers can remember much about the process except that read about three reviews of inkjets and that the was always at or near the top bought the because of the added dimension of colour intend to build multi media machine at some stage and have just bought colour scanner towards that although haven used the colour thing in earnest yet tried it out on couple of windows bitmaps and was pleased with the result note that even though you can now get the the one with both colour and mono with no need to change the cartridge the and are still readily available at least in the uk the following are my views experience don know anything about the canon except that came away from reviews and replies to posting similar to yours with the idea that the hp offered the best performance price ratio believe hp are the originals in the field not always the ideal place to be but the market still young so one assumes they have the expertise the is worth the extra operation in mono is perfectly acceptable and get good crisp reproduction of fonts from windows used to work for monotype when they still manufactured typesetters before their american owners closed them down and can tell you that in terms of definition dpi is pretty poor anyway so dpi is just bit less poor the hp comes with reasonable set of drivers if you buy it invest in the additional ram pack it pretty slow with it god knows what it like without actually work in germany and my pc is home in the uk so it not in daily use would say that apart from my not reading the manual properly and having really dumb problem at the start it easy peasy to operate hope this is of use regards david just bought the bj thought the price couldn be beat with rebate thru and so far it is comparable even superior to the deskjet in print quality speed per page rate seems to be faster don have figures don print long docs though quality think the graphics quality is excellent print quality is excellent as well unless you use small fonts and hold it up close you can see lot more jaggies than on laserjet the dpi is offset by little less accuracy in holding the page print head in place would imagine large docs not room in the standard model for whole lotta pages manual says up to though haven tried it drivers no problems under win3 yet winword doesn want to print the envelopes the same way the canon does though know nothing of add on costs daniel hartung dhartung chinet chinet com ask me about rotaract the deskjet is slow this is in comparison to the other printers mentioned have no idea how the bubblejet compares the interface between win3 and the printer is just dandy ve not had any problems with it just bought bj printer couple of days ago compared it to the sample print of an hp deskjet and knew that the hp wasn for me the bj is pretty fast and really prints with good quality can compare it with the hp laserjet iiid postscript and they look almost identical depending on the kind of paper don have problems with the ink not being dry it seems to dry very fast probably within second since canon is giving rebate until the end of may it is really good buy sean eckton computer support representative college of fine arts and communications wow it funny you should ask this little behind in news reading so know this may be late just purchased the canon bubblejet last night was really worried that wouldn like it but the print quality and noise level is fantastic printed quite few documents with lots of graphics and it printed damn near laser quality you can tell it not laser unless you get inches from the page no problems with drivers the printer came with the driver diskette which is good because was beginning to panic when couldn findi it under windows or wordperfect it works well under both have yet to install word for windows so don know how it works with them had deskjet at work last year it was good printer as well ut felt it was awfully slow and much noisier than the bubblejet won say the bubblejet is much better but really do like it more just my worth brett sincerely robert kayman kayman cs stanford edu or cpa cs stanford edu in theory theory and practice are the same in practice they are not you mean you want the revised revision of the original revised revision revised newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet world cfw from cfw world std com christopher wroten subject question on eisa video board performance message id c68ubg k2w world std com keywords eisa video performance organization the world public access unix brookline ma date thu apr gmt lines have an eisa machine and just do not understand why most eisa video cards only match the performance of their isa counterparts for instance the eisa orchid pro designer iis is only about as fast as the isa diamond speedstar plus which isn what would call fast don understand why eisa video cards aren as group on the same level of performance as local bus cards given that eisa video cards have bit bus to move data around instead of isa bits since they are not why would anyone me included pay higher cost for eisa video card when its performance is no better than and often worse that much cheaper isa video board such as diamond speedstar from pc magazine think recent report know that ati makes pretty fast eisa video card but it around which is just about double what my wallet will allow me to spend and for could get diamond viper and still have left over of course have to get local bus mother board too can anyone shed some light on my confusion frustration thanks christopher wroten cfw world std com newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net howland reston ans net torn nott bnrgate bnr co uk pipex sunic celsiustech se admin kth se kth se elixir kth se e92 tbo from e92 tbo elixir kth se tage borg subject re need longer filenames message id apr28 kth se lines sender usenet kth se usenet nntp posting host ohm kth se reply to e92 tbo elixir kth se tage borg organization school of ee royal institute of technology sweden references apr19 guinness idbsu edu d518325t9 infoserv com rfdkqinn8s2 zephyr grace cri nz date wed apr gmt in article rfdkqinn8s2 zephyr grace cri nz maystonr grace cri nz richard mayston writes path kth se sunic pipex uunet noc near net howland reston ans net wupost waikato ac nz comp vuw ac nz zephyr grace cri nz zephyr grace cri nz usenet newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject re need longer filenames message id rfdkqinn8s2 zephyr grace cri nz from maystonr grace cri nz richard mayston date mon apr gmt sender maystonr grace cri nz references apr19 guinness idbsu edu d518325t9 infoserv com distribution world organization industrial research ltd new zealand nntp posting host rmayston grace cri nz lines in article d518325t9 infoserv com hfeldman infoserv com howard mitchell feldman writes in apr19 guinness idbsu edu lhighley gozer idbsu edu larry paul highley wrote is there utility out there that will let me use filenames longer than the standard format yep it called os2 yep you can use any type of unix or maybe vms or buy mac or something if you want longer filenames for your documents heard of wordprocessor for windows which let you assign long names to files those long filenames could only be seen from that programs open save dialogs though maybe someone knows more about this wordprocessor than do path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com emory darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet digex com digex net not for mail from wild access digex net wildstrom newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject re standard and enhanced question date apr organization express access online communications greenbelt md usa lines message id rmjm3 f16 access digex net references rl4u7 ofg usenet ins cwru edu nntp posting host access digex net ak333 cleveland freenet edu martin linsenbigler writes why is win sometimes so finicky have new dell dx2 mhz megs ram windows was working just great had bus mouse and mother board problem dell replaced the mouse gave me newer mouse driver for windows and replaced the motherboard just prior to this problem windows would only load up every other time would get the logo and either it would go on into windows or lock up this was very consistent every other time much deleted any thoughts or comments sounds like memory conflict problem which can cause truly weird symptoms like these call dell tech support or better post to them on cserve if you have an account and get the memory range used by video ram on your machine the block windows from using those ranges with an emmexclude statement in the enh section of system ini you probably should include statement excluding the same range from emm386 or whatever memory manager you use in config sys dell installs windows on the machines they ship but the installation doesn consist of much more than copying the files to hard disk you still have to do the work and the fact that you have the problem in enhanced mode but not standard strongly suggests high memory conflict newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu utnut torn nott bnrgate bnr co uk uknet pipex sunic news funet fi news cs tut fi pk64380 from pk64380 kaarne cs tut fi kuusisto pasi petri sig subject re program manager two questions message id apr28 news cs tut fi originator pk64380 kaarne cs tut fi sender usenet news cs tut fi kotilo news system nntp posting host kaarne cs tut fi reply to pk64380 kaarne cs tut fi organization tampere university of technology dep of computer science references kou2raijbh107h axion uucp date wed apr gmt lines from article kou2raijbh107h axion uucp by wefiii axion uucp warren fridy iii in apr22 vpnet chi il us lisbon vpnet chi il us gerry swetsky writes can you set up short cut key to return to the program manager know ctl esc esc will do it but rather set it up so can avoid the task list and get back to the with alt f1 you might try the recorder and make micro now isn that just amazing seriously add program manager to your startup group and define shortcut for it works zi xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os ms windows misc comp os ms windows programmer tools newsgroups comp os ms windows misc comp os ms windows programmer tools path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech emory sol ctr columbia edu caen batcomputer cornell raman from raman cs cornell edu raman subject screenreading programs for ms windows message id apr28 cs cornell edu summary looking for screen access program for ms windows keywords talking workstations screenreading programs screen access for window organization cornell univ cs dept ithaca ny date wed apr gmt lines hi use pc with screen access program ibm screen reader and speech synthesizer accent sa would like to find out about screen access programs for the windows platform heard that were couple of them out now under beta testing would like to find out addresses prices etc thanks raman raman raman cs cornell edu tel office upson hall department of computer science cornell university ithaca ny res bryant avenue ithaca ny xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp databases comp lang comp lang comp os ms windows apps comp os ms windows misc comp os ms windows programmer misc newsgroups comp databases comp lang comp lang comp os ms windows apps comp os ms windows misc comp os ms windows programmer misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet magna doc from doc magna com matthew errico subject looking for text search engine message id c671b3 liy magna com organization magna software corporation date wed apr gmt lines looking for any information regarding text search engines specifically prefer source or binaries which will run in ms windows and or unix environment scanning either flat files or common db structures references to pd shareware or commercial implementations welcome please reply via email ll summarize if desired thanx doc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu pitt edu gatech howland reston ans net noc near net uunet mcsun uknet pipex sunic ugle unit no ugle unit no bjaastad from bjaastad idt unit no vard bj stad newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject help word4w sucks autonum message id apr29 ugle unit no date apr gmt sender news ugle unit no netnews administrator reply to bjaastad idt unit no vard bj stad organization norwegian institue of technology lines am getting desperate have report that must be finished by midnight and w4w doesn seem to have what appears to be must use the autonum field for numbering chapters but my document is distributed amongst several files just can find way to make word start the numbering at something else than or of course everything is fine in the first file but it pretty stupid when all chapters are numbered as please if you have any solution to this except from putting it all in one document mail me immediately as am working on th report hardly have any time to read news so please mail me all answers will be heartly welcome in advance thanx lot frode rinnans trondheim tlf bjaastad idt unit no and on the th day god created rock and roll avard jastad newsgroups comp os ms windows misc from cm cavsys demon co uk colin manning path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet mcsun uknet bnr co uk demon cavsys demon co uk cm subject truetype oem font with line drawing characters etc wanted distribution world organization cavendish systems reply to cm cavsys demon co uk newsreader simple news ka9q dis lines date tue apr message id snz cavsys demon co uk sender usenet demon co uk title says it all in need of truetype oem character set font ie one that contains the line drawing and other characters in the pc character set similar to those you get when running text mode application if anyone could point me at such thing be grateful the only oem fonts included with windows are not truetype regards colin manning path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu pitt edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu news cso uiuc edu sinclairj1 ppath uiuc edu ardie from ardie ux1 cso uiuc edu ardie mack newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject re windows zip unzip message id ardie ux1 cso uiuc edu date apr gmt references hydra gatech edu sender usenet news cso uiuc edu net noise owner organization department of plant pathology lines from ccastco prism gatech edu costas malamas subject re windows zip unzip date apr gmt in article rl9b6 h3c sol deakin oz au russ deakin oz au russ sharp writes we are using pkzip v2 and am interested to hear from people who have used one of the many windows programs that call these is there full windows version that does not call the dos pkzip pkunzip commands russ sharp russ deakin edu au ph fax there is wunarchive the replacement of wunzip it only extracts but it ssupports pkzip it does not require pkz unzip in order to work and ccosts only to register path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu pitt edu gatech darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu usenet coe montana edu ogicse hp cv hp pcd news1 boi hp com cupnews0 cup hp com nsa hp com hpscit sc hp com hplextra hpcc05 hpcc01 reed from reed hpcc01 corp hp com perry reed newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject re how redirect print manager to file message id hpcc01 corp hp com date apr gmt references apr24 debbie cc nctu edu tw organization hewlett packard co pgis lines hpcc01 comp os ms windows misc u7911093 cc nctu edu tw by swh am apr hello who can tell me where can find the pd or shareware which can capture windows output of printer mananger want to capture the output of hp laser jet iii though the postscript can setup to print to file but hp can try dos redirect program but they can work in windows thankx for any help you can print to file from an hp or any other printer just go into the printers section of your control panel select the printer you want to re direct to file and click on connect then choose file as the port to connect the printer to when you print from any application to that printer windows will prompt you for file name for the file into which you want to capture the printout it pretty easy good luck perry reed perry reed hp0000 desk hp com be young be foolish be lucky in love path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu pitt edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet mcsun uknet pipex sunic ugle unit no zevs ifi unit no frode from frode zevs ifi unit no frode kvam newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject auto check boxes message id apr29 ugle unit no date apr gmt sender news ugle unit no netnews administrator organization institutt for informatikk universitetet tr heim avh lines newsreader tin pl4 have question about the autocheck boxes in windows is it possibility to let the boxes have several different colors at the same time frode kvam name frode kvam univ university of trondheim dept of informatics mail frode ifi unit no snail mail lademoens kirkealle trondheim voice beware of programmers who carry screwdrivers path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet psgrain ee und ac za csir co za mattek csir co za dbasson from dbasson mattek csir co za dominique basson newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject re boot up sometimes fails date apr gmt organization csir lines message id dbasson mattek csir co za references apr28 lugb latrobe edu au nntp posting host disclaimer none of the opions expressed herein are the official disclaimer opinions of the csir or any of its subsidiaries disclaimer so don freak out at us about anything in article apr28 lugb latrobe edu au cs416530 lux latrobe edu au matthew gillard writes subject boot up sometimes fails from cs416530 lux latrobe edu au matthew gillard date wed apr gmt sometimes when boot up windows after the windows logo comes up it han gs am using dos and doublespace and meg temp swap file on an uncompressed drive but when press the reset button on the computer windows boots up fine why is this is it dos matthew gillard blessed are they who run around computer systems engineering in circles for they shall be la trobe university known as wheels dos never used the area e000 efff as well as some others if you have any cards that use this are such as lan card you might get this problem use the e000 efff in your emm386 exe line in config sys if you run memmaker then instruct it retain inclusions and exclusions path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu pitt edu gatech emory athena aisun1 ai uga edu mjuric from mjuric aisun1 ai uga edu mark juric msai newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject printer security message id c68z2u dvw athena cs uga edu date apr gmt sender mjuric ai uga edu organization ai programs university of georgia athens lines nntp posting host aisun1 ai uga edu anyone know of good software package that will allow us to keep track of who is printing what and when is there any way to get print manager to keep log is there print manager replacement that will do this how about package that will only allow access to the system for people in password file looked at chastity but it will let you log in without password and doesn keep tabs of who got on and when any help will be greatly appreciated mark juric programs mjuric ai uga edu university of georgia athens georgia newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu utnut torn nott bnrgate bnr co uk uknet pipex sunic ugle unit no tigern eliza from eliza tigern elisabeth bull subject re why not using dos anymore message id apr28 ugle unit no sender news ugle unit no netnews administrator organization university of trondheim norway newsreader tin version pl6 references cda90038 ucf1vm bitnet date wed apr gmt lines mark woodruff cda90038 ucf1vm bitnet wrote this morning at am while was working on my research paper had to reboot hung dos program that did no disk from within windows when my machine finished rebooting found my windows directory and about two thirds of my other directories were irreversibly corrupted stuff deleted this sounds like what happened to my hd month ago my hd was stacked with stacker run dos5 suddenly everything hung up and most of the hd got corrupted directories changed into unreadable files with funny names in other words it is probably just the doubledisk part of dos6 that is troublesome now use stacker and so far have had no trouble elisabeth bull mail eliza swix nvg unit no newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet mcsun sunic ericom euas31c48 konta from konta eua ericsson se thomas arctaedius subject re need longer filenames message id apr28 ericsson se sender news ericsson se nntp posting host euas31c48 eua ericsson se reply to konta eua ericsson se organization ellemtel utvecklings ab references apr28 kth se date wed apr gmt lines is there utility out there that will let me use filenames longer than the standard format yep it called os2 yep you can use any type of unix or maybe vms or buy mac or something if you want longer filenames for your documents heard of wordprocessor for windows which let you assign long names to files those long filenames could only be seen from that programs open save dialogs though maybe someone knows more about this wordprocessor than do if rember correctly lotus notes gives this possiblity among other things tom softsys se path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu pitt edu gatech howland reston ans net ira uka de news dfn de mailgzrz tu berlin de mailszrz zrz tu berlin de mlin0432 from mlin0432 mailszrz zrz tu berlin de michael linder newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject windows nt help needed with io error x0069 message id rokfu lt1 mailgzrz tu berlin de date apr gmt organization tuberlin zrz lines nntp posting host mailszrz zrz tu berlin de hi everybody out there just got the third beta release disk march of windowsnt and still am not able to boot up that system the final step achieved is the display of io error x0069 but since this is the beta release of the sdk for nt and not of nt microsoft does not include manual on the os itself explaining what this error means of what can do to get rid of my configuration is mainboard hauppauge rev a7 with socket for i860 megs of memory ami eisa scsi controller series latest bios mb cache st41200n hard disk syquest removable disk toshiba cd rom drive proaudio spectrum plus longshine ethernet card lcs8634 ne2000 comp et4000 graphics card meg colorimage5 the system is running fine under dos and windows etc but trying to do the setup for nt automatic setup does not recognize controller aha1542 compat when adding manually nt complains not finging any cd rom drive the manual setup winnt does not copy everything from cd to hd does not recognize controller but takes it manually setup continues until it tries to boot then it starts loading several stuff from disk seems to fing the hd but messing up with that damned io error took away all io cards not essential but that did not make any effect anybody got any ideas help would be greatly appreciated michael linder mlinder tonet1 physik tu berlin de institute of optics tech univ berlin germany path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel news udel edu darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu ub rutgers njitgw njit edu hertz njit edu scr2275 from scr2275 hertz njit edu samuel ramac newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject terminal setup how message id apr28 njitgw njit edu date apr gmt sender news njit edu organization new jersey institute of technology newark lines nntp posting host hertz njit edu am new to windows and wanted to know how to setup the terminal program have modem in com4 but when it try to configure it inside windows get the messare unsupported com can anyone help me sam newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl pacbell com iggy gw vitalink com wetware spunky redbrick com psinntp psinntp atldbs atldbs dbsoftware com adair from adair atldbs dbsoftware com owen adair subject re more cool bmp files sender news dbsoftware com message id adair atldbs dbsoftware com date wed apr gmt distribution usa lines references apr17 gmuvax2 gmu edu apr20 dlss2 organization dun bradstreet software in article apr20 dlss2 james dlss2 james cummings writes newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path atldbs uupsi psinntp uunet gatech howland reston ans net bogus sura net darwin sura net convex seas smu edu void dalnet dlss2 james from james dlss2 james cummings subject re more cool bmp files message id apr20 dlss2 organization redrock development references apr17 gmuvax2 gmu edu distribution usa date tue apr gmt lines in article apr17 gmuvax2 gmu edu rwang gmuvax2 gmu edu john wang writes hi everybody guess my subject has said it all it is getting boring looking at those same old bmp files that came with windows so am wondering if there is any body has some beautiful bmp file can share or maybe somebody can tell me some ftp site for some bmp files like some scenery files some animals files etc used to have some unfortunately delete them all anyway could me give me some help please in response to different kinda wallpaper here what use think the original gif whatever was called not real the artist name and logo is in the lower right corner you will need vga think and have this sized for x600 color screens use this in your windows directory and do not tile it hope you enjoy had question abo owen adair wd4fsu adair dbsoftware com software backbone uupsi5 atldbs adair there is an alarming increase of topics know nothing about path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net jhunix hcf jhu edu jhunix hcf jhu edu not for mail from admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu steve liu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject spring records date mar organization homewood academic computing johns hopkins university baltimore md usa lines sender admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu distribution world expires message id o81obinn9f7 jhunix hcf jhu edu nntp posting host jhunix hcf jhu edu summary earl weaver commandments the orioles pitching staff again is having fine exhibition season four shutouts low team era well haven gotten any baseball news since march but anyways could they contend yes could they win it all maybe but for all those fans of teams with bad spring records remember earl weaver first law of baseball from his book on managing no one gives damn in july if you lost game in march btw anyone have any idea on the contenders for the fifth starter it pretty much set that sutcliffe mussina mcdonald and rhodes are the first four in the rotation here at johns hopkins university where the mascot is the blue jay their baseball team logo was the toronto club logo now it anatomically correct blue jay god can they think of an original idea it even in the same pose as the baltimore oriole on the hats how many people realize that the bird is really called baltimore oriole admiral steve liu internet address admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu committee for the liberation and intergration of terrifying organisms and their rehabilitation into society from red dwarf polymorph the bangles are the greatest female rock band that ever existed this sig has been brought to you by frungy the sport of kings newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet puc cl isluga acifuent from acifuent isluga puc cl alejandro cifuentes subject re why is my mouse so jumpy ms mouse message id apr28 tolten puc cl sender news tolten puc cl news manager nntp posting host isluga puc cl organization pontificia universidad catolica de chile newsreader tin pl5 references goudswaa sfu ca date wed apr gmt lines ecktons ucs byu edu sean eckton writes have microsoft serial mouse and am using mouse com was using think but switched to to see if it was any better vertical motion is nice and smooth but horizontal motion is so bad sometimes can click on something because my mouse jumps around can be moving the mouse to the right with relatively uniform motion and the mouse will move smoothly for bit then jump to the right then move smoothly for bit then jump again maybe this time to the left about inch this is crazy have never had so much trouble with mouse before anyone have any solutions here is another hint have really jumping mouse ps2 type and finally the mouse stops jump changing himem sys yes himem is you use device himem sys can be of course my computer don appear on the list for these parameter and maybe your mouse can stop jump but your problem looks more like dirty mouse hope it help to anybody alejandro cifuentes acifuent isluga puc cl newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu darwin sura net sgiblab wetware sjsumcs sundance rick from rick sundance sjsu edu richard warner subject dos loaded gun was why not using dos anymore message id rick sundance sender news sjsumcs sjsu edu news administrator nntp posting host sundance sjsu edu organization san jose state university math cs dept references cda90038 ucf1vm bitnet date apr gmt lines mark woodruff cda90038 ucf1vm bitnet writes ve been running dos for about month was generally impressed with the improvements the multiple boot configurations were great the new commands were nice and doublespace worked fine twice as slow for large data transfers twice as fast for small with smartdrv until now this morning at am while was working on my research paper had to reboot hung dos program that did no disk from within windows when my machine finished rebooting found my windows directory and about two thirds of my other directories were irreversibly corrupted cannot afford problems like this returning to dos mark ve also noticed bad sector errors from doublespace where none should exist infoworld april issue has two articles about problems with dos second look article calls it loaded gun and that people should exercise extreme caution if they decide to use it the point out that doublespace and memmaker are both problem areas that will cause number of folks problems ms response was to the effect that there had been no problems reported that they could duplicate probably are not trying too hard cringely reports that lot of folks are getting going to get burned on the support lines his example was call that cost for minutes of tech support after minutes on hold want to see the ms spin doctors explain this newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl netcomsv netcom com tittle from tittle netcom com cindy tittle moore subject re why not using dos anymore message id tittlec67crd efx netcom com sender tittle netcom com cindy tittle moore reply to tittle netcom com cindy tittle moore organization disorganized in orange county ca references cda90038 ucf1vm bitnet apr28 ugle unit no date wed apr gmt lines eliza tigern elisabeth bull writes mark woodruff cda90038 ucf1vm bitnet wrote this morning at am while was working on my research paper had to reboot hung dos program that did no disk from within windows when my machine finished rebooting found my windows directory and about two thirds of my other directories were irreversibly corrupted stuff deleted this sounds like what happened to my hd month ago my hd was stacked with stacker run dos5 suddenly everything hung up and most of the hd got corrupted directories changed into unreadable files with funny names in other words it is probably just the doubledisk part of dos6 that is troublesome now use stacker and so far have had no trouble this pretty much confirms my original impression after reading through the documentation on dos the double space sounds nice but not on your primary disk ll probably wind up making disk partition and doublespacing it using it as an archive probably would be useful on floppy disks as well but on uh uh particularly disliked the note that said something like double space is irreversible cindy cindy tittle moore internet tittle ics uci edu bitnet cltittle uci bitnet uucp ucbvax ucivax tittle usnail po box irvine ca newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl rtech ingres bonobo from bonobo ingres com david victor subject windows enhanced mode how to get icon functionality message id apr28 pony ingres com sender bonobo ingres com organization ingres corporation subsidiary of the ask group inc distribution na date apr gmt lines recently set windows up on my dx vlb system and didn notice until last night that don have the icon in my control panel don remember windows setup asking me about enhanced mode whether wanted it or not now ve got program that just bought aldus freehand that is telling me that should be running windows in enhanced mode looks like running in standard mode how can switch to enhanced mode without the little icon thingie are there some issues involved with vesa lb systems which cause windows to not want to give you enhanced mode thanks for any help david victor newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel news udel edu darwin sura net seas gwu edu louray from louray seas gwu edu michael panayiotakis subject re help with changing startup logo message id apr28 seas gwu edu organization george washington university references aa01739 fidonet org date wed apr gmt lines in article aa01739 fidonet org doelle p26 f3333 n106 z1 fidonet org doelle writes hello brad monday april brad smalling wrote to crosspost all bs since don know your setup bs copy win cnf vgalogo lgo vgalogo rle win com bs grabbed this from supercharging windows by judd robbins great book bs this is also how you can put your own logo into the windows startup brad what is the procedure used to specially compress the bmp file would to rle file love to use some of my bmp files have created as logo screen thanks chris origin chris doelle f3333 n106 z1 fidonet org thought reply to this though ain brad at any case lot of picture file viewers that will convert say between gif etc to bmp will convert to rle know for fact that paintshop shareware from cica desktop think filename psvvv zip think where vvv is the ver number if that not true let me know and ll post corection this however will write your rle file with bmp extension so you have to rename it now another thing this is from the windows faq your file has to be less than at least that what the faq says but mine wont work for more than about maybe they mend don know your file has to fit vga size or whatever standard vga size is if you use non vga screen cga ega svga there is also way to do it but thing instead of vgalogo lgo you use another file such as cgalogo lgo egalogo lgo or something not sure about this as have vga but sure you could find it in the faq windows help ver of which is available at cica but don konw the filename also your bmp has to be colours or less these specs rule out some of the good bmp found cartoon drawings work quite well as they have the advantage of looking good with little memory finally remember to save your current win com before and put your new win com in the windows directory also don start windows from directory where another win com is present as that is used instead of the one in the windows dir and win won start share this fairly but don take slice of my pie pf mickey pe michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace uunet seas gwu edu louray how do make ms windows grp file reflect hd directory well ain always right but ve never been wrong gd newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net darwin sura net seas gwu edu louray from louray seas gwu edu michael panayiotakis subject re windows zip unzip message id apr28 seas gwu edu organization george washington university references rl9b6 h3c sol deakin oz au date wed apr gmt lines in article rl9b6 h3c sol deakin oz au russ deakin oz au russ sharp writes we are using pkzip v2 and am interested to hear from people who have used one of the many windows programs that call these which ones are available and does any one stand out amongst the rest well got winzip from cica don know which version but think it the latest as this is not long ago and was initially imressed but here the low down winzip is great progra as long as you only unzip it lets you vew files unzip only selected files and even puts the files in checkout directory and creates checkout grp and group if you want to check the program out it even prompts for deletion of these on exit if you didn like the program however big however over here have problems zipping don konw specifics on this or ammount of consistency but sometimes when zip few files or add file to zip dos will violate something or other and ll be asked in kind micro oft kind of way to quit all applications quit windows and restart my computer don know as said how consistent this is as jdont zip much and when do now just go to dos and use it from there or just use the run cmd but do know it happened when added files to an existing zip file and when created new zip file using selected files only don know if it happened when zip an entire dir still it has rather nice interface and quite useful unzip ing functions if the above is fixed ll be the first to register the new ver as for now good old run unzip zip will work ps if new ver is out that fixes these please let me know peace mickey pe michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace uunet seas gwu edu louray how do make ms windows grp file reflect hd directory well ain always right but ve never been wrong gd newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net darwin sura net seas gwu edu louray from louray seas gwu edu michael panayiotakis subject re boot up sometimes fails message id apr28 seas gwu edu organization george washington university references apr28 lugb latrobe edu au dbasson mattek csir co za date wed apr gmt lines in article dbasson mattek csir co za dbasson mattek csir co za dominique basson writes dos never used the area e000 efff as well as some others if you have any cards that use this are such as lan card you might get this problem use the e000 efff in your emm386 exe line in config sys if you run memmaker then instruct it retain inclusions and exclusions speaking of that my comp has emmexclude e000 efff or something of that nature in the system ini file or some system file for windows was just wondering if having that line in windows startup file is better as it will give some more memory on dos apps but disable it when you run windows actually do think that that line is also in the system file peace mickey pe michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace uunet seas gwu edu louray how do make ms windows grp file reflect hd directory well ain always right but ve never been wrong gd xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os ms windows misc comp os ms windows apps path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu alpha ces cwru edu stever from stever ces cwru edu steven ruegsegger newsgroups comp os ms windows misc comp os ms windows apps subject mouse odometer date apr gmt organization computer engineering and science case western reserve university lines distribution usa message id rmdun fa usenet ins cwru edu nntp posting host storm eeap cwru edu hello do you know about mouse odometer for windows have seen one for the mac it is quite fun it records the distance in miles that the travels during use thanks in advance steve steven ruegsegger if you are conservative when you are young smr2 po cwru edu you have no heart if you are liberal when you are old you have no brain xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp windows misc comp os msdos misc comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu pitt edu dsinc spool mu edu howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu linac uchinews raistlin a2 cim cdc com slc from slc a2 cim cdc com steve chesney x4662 newsgroups comp windows misc comp os msdos misc comp os ms windows misc sys mac misc subject internationalization of applications and muulti byte characters keywords i18n message id c692ma bz raistlin udev cdc com date apr gmt sender usenet raistlin udev cdc com news poster reply to slc cdc com organization metaphase technology inc lines we are researching what support there is on various platforms for applications to use multi byte characters japanese kanji we know that unix and windows can contain support for the i18n standard depending on level and platform what support for i18n or wide characters exists on the mac windows and windows nt steve chesney slc catherine cim cdc com metaphase technology inc voice north lexington avenue fax arden hills mn path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech prism gt2617c from gt2617c prism gatech edu brad smalling newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject re help with changing startup logo message id hydra gatech edu date apr gmt references aa01739 fidonet org organization georgia institute of technology lines in article aa01739 fidonet org doelle writes brad what is the procedure used to specially compress the bmp file would love to use some of my bmp files have created as logo screen thanks chris origin chris doelle f3333 n106 z1 fidonet org don know the specifics of the compression algorithm but ve used the shareware program paintshop to convert between the two you can download it from ftp cica indiana edu but don know what the file is called or what directory it is in you can start by looking in pub pc win3 or try scanning the index files to convert bmp file to rle file you just load the bmp file and do save as select windows bitmap and compressed or is it rle whatever it is it fairly intuitive sorry don have all the details but currently on an ibm3151 dumb terminal and can do much researching good luck brad smalling jr ee ga tech atlanta ga gt2617c prism gatech edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu pitt edu dsinc efi dchung from dchung efi com daniel chung newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject bitmap re what does the bmp format mean message id c691oe efi com date apr gmt followup to comp windows ms soc culture esperanto organization electronics for imaging inc lines iuj el ie kiu lando demandis pri bitmap oj kaj iu el fi finnlando respondis dirante pri libro en software development kit eble la demandinto ne havas la elvolvilo por malmol varoj that was esperanto some from ie asked about bitmaps and some from fi responded saying about book int the software development kit possibly the asker does not have the development kit gxong cxjijaux ro path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu pitt edu dsinc efi dchung from dchung efi com daniel chung newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject bitmap re what does the bmp format mean message id c6938p dp efi com date apr gmt reply to root followup to misc test organization electronics for imaging inc lines pardonon mi ofte konfuzigxas pri mola kaj malmola do mol vara was confused between soft and hard as in software gxong cxjijaux path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu pitt edu dsinc spool mu edu howland reston ans net gatech destroyer news itd umich edu tiamat umd umich edu cpt from cpt tiamat umd umich edu paul gubbins newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject win lock up at mil on dia stelth24x help keywords stelth message id cpt tiamat umd umich edu date apr gmt organization university of michigan lines nntp posting host cw u04 umd umich edu please help if you can whenever try to run windows useing the million color mode with the drivers supplyed with my diamond stelth it will lock up requireing full system reset to break out the drivers that have for windows are for windows which is the version of windows am useing my setup dx40 kcach megs of ram svga touch monitor non interlaced ami bios any and all help would be apreciated the card seems to work fine in other modes usually run windows in x600 mode and probs at all so am hopeing it is driver and not card problem paul gubbins cpt tiamat umd umich edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu pitt edu zaphod mps ohio state edu swrinde network ucsd edu mvb saic com zippy telcom arizona edu bpavms bpa arizona edu dmittleman from dmittleman bpavms bpa arizona edu daniel mittleman newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject leaking memory resources in message id apr199309371113 bpavms bpa arizona edu date apr gmt organization university of arizona mis department lines nntp posting host bpavms bpa arizona edu news software vax vms vnews this may be an faq if so please direct me to the known answer but am getting frustrated and looking for help am running win with ndw on sx with meg of memory and meg perm swap file and am getting exceedingly frustrated that my applications are not giving back system resources when close them when load windows start with about resources available but many of the application programs run regularly wpwin vb winqvt lotus organizer etc seem to not return all their resources when exit them after day or two of work often find myself down under of available resources even when have no applications other than my shell running am aware this is known problem what am looking for are some suggestions of what might do to mitigate it what software is the culprit win ndw my applications are some modes of win standard real enhanced better than others at plugging this leak are their system ini switches can set to help plug this leak do people know of patches or third party software that help with this seems like increasing or better managing system resources is great market for third party memory company like qemm if run progman instead of ndw will the leak subside was hoping that ndw would have plugged this but it seems no different than in how it deals with memory and resources when am writing vb code are there things can do to make it less likely my code will eat resources any other suggestions that don know enough to ask for specifically thanks for your help as this is common problem and have seen only little discussion of it on the net there are probably others who would like to read answers so please publish here rather than sending me email danny daniel david mittleman danny arizona edu xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os ms windows misc comp os ms windows programmer tools comp os ms windows setup newsgroups comp os ms windows misc comp os ms windows programmer tools comp os ms windows setup path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu linac uchinews att out cbnewsj vrr from vrr cbnewsj cb att com veenu rashid subject help finding best development kit organization at date thu apr gmt message id c697i6 e21 cbnewsj cb att com followup to poster keywords borland ms other please reply lines new to the ms windows world and while fairly competent sparc nextstep programmer have no idea which development kit to purchase have heard good things about borland with application frameworks and microsoft visual with sdk what would like is peoples comments on which package or set of tools they find useful or productive and why there are plethora of other kits such as gui toolkits available and wondering which of these are best in terms of reliability plug and go type operation readability and so on be interested in comments on these or anything else you may find useful will summarize to the net if there is enough interest thanks veenu vrr cbnewsj att com newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl pa dec com acadvm1 uottawa ca from acadvm1 uottawa ca william maton message id aa16735 inet gw pa dec com subject changing system font date wed apr edt received by usenet pa dec com id aa20335 wed apr received by inet gw pa dec com id aa16735 wed apr received from acadvm1 uottawa ca by acadvm1 uottawa ca ibm vm smtp v2r2 with bsmtp id wed apr edt received from uottawa by acadvm1 uottawa ca mailer r2 with bsmtp id wed apr edt to all comp os ms windows misc usenet lines hello have windows and was wondering what is necessary to change the default system font to something else have just obtained msc with sdk so really like to get my feet wet with doing my first windows pro gram to change the system font tx william maton acadvm1 uottawa ca the mercedes benz convertible u646379 csi uottawa ca the unicycle xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os ms windows setup comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu pitt edu uunet enterpoop mit edu thunder mcrcim mcgill edu homer cs mcgill ca gel from gel cs mcgill ca gilles khouzam newsgroups comp os ms windows setup comp os ms windows misc subject ati ultra pro windows message id c696vh ei5 cs mcgill ca date apr gmt sender gilles khouzam gel binkley cs mcgill ca organization socs mcgill university montreal canada lines ok just got new mb with ati ultra pro and can get into windows it says that need more memory available but have mb ogf extended mem of conventionnal have disabled my memory aperture because it didn find any free memory but it still gave me message that the memory aperture will conflict with system memory think that why it want to get in windows any help will greatly be appriciated please reply by mail because this site is week late on news thanks gel xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os ms windows setup comp os ms windows misc newsgroups comp os ms windows setup comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu utnut torn nott cunews jhardy from jhardy alfred carleton ca jim hardy subject re where to get ati card video drivers fonts message id jhardy cunews keywords ati windows sender news cunews carleton ca news administrator organization carleton university references rju4p hah access digex net distribution usa date wed apr gmt lines in rju4p hah access digex net farley access digex com charles farley writes does anyone know where can ftp or somehow else acquire the latest video drivers fonts for an ati svga adapter the only floppy have is for windows does anyone know if ati is still in business thanks farley access digex com charles farley average iq of calgary board of ed employee you can get them from the ati bbs it number should be on your manuals if not the tech support number will tell you the bbs number path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov ncar noao arizona arizona edu violet ccit arizona edu syzhang from syzhang violet ccit arizona edu zhang shiyu newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject pcx from w4w message id apr199313244164 violet ccit arizona edu date apr gmt distribution world local organization university of arizona lines nntp posting host violet ccit arizona edu news software vax vms vnews hi folks have question how can generate pcx file using word for windows know can select postscript printer driver to get ps file but how can generate pcx file is there printer capture utility for windows that ever exists or utility to transfer ps format to pcx format or tiff format please reply by mail will give summary thanks shiyu zhang syzhang ccit arizona edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu pitt edu gatech howland reston ans net sol ctr columbia edu news unomaha edu nevada edu jimi physics unr edu dws007 menchett from menchett dws007 unr edu peter menchetti newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject microsoft printing system or something like that message id apr29 physics unr edu date apr gmt sender usenet physics unr edu usenet login account organization university of nevada reno department of computer science lines saw an ad for this and it basically is an advanced print manager it lets you monitor your printing more closely and comes with bunch of true type fonts anyone have this good bad worth it newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net sol ctr columbia edu destroyer newsrelay iastate edu news iastate edu vincent1 iastate edu kaz from kaz iastate edu errington shroud subject trouble with sound blaster pro drivers message id kaz vincent1 iastate edu summary trouble with sound blaster pro keywords sbp sender news news iastate edu usenet news system organization iowa state university ames ia date wed apr gmt lines recently windows has starting giving me the error sound blaster pro requires newer version of windows it has worked correctly for long time and don know what the problem could be thanks jeff kaz kaczmarek kaz iastate edu the future is long past forgotten when you re on the road to madness geoff tate queensryche path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu ohstpy glazer from glazer ohstpy mps ohio state edu newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject local windows vs shared windows discussion message id bdfed1d ohstpy mps ohio state edu date apr edt organization the ohio state university department of physics lines would like to see serious discussion on the best way to install windows from novell administrator point of view just got off the phone with ms access support and was told that they microsoft has decided to implement as standard for software support the local setup described below as the most advantageous installation if this is true and microsoft deems this to be the most prudent installation then will comply but like to hear it from administrators first the local windows installation windows is fully installed on each workstation hard drive assuming the resources are available from network administrator implementation he she would install all windows disks on network drive using setup then install windows on per machine bases by running setup off the network to install the complete system on the local drives in this way all drivers are available to the setup procedure the need to change disks advantages reduce traffic running windows locally reduces network traffic due to the local access of main windows files network independence if the network fails and they all do at one point or another the local installation would allow users to keep producing and reduce the cost of down time faster windows theoretically windows will run faster from local hard drive than over network this may be hard point to prove if the network has an optical backbone and or the network drives are significantly faster access than local ones user traveling from machine to machine does not need to worry about varying setups monochrome color types of mouse etc since the windows installation is assigned to the workstation disadvantages cost installing windows locally requires significant amount of disk space workstations now must be purchased with hard disk that can increase the cost of the workstation from to percent administration local windows installations are very difficult to administer new drivers for peripherals are constantly being made available each of which would have to be individually installed on each workstation security users now have access to erase or corrupt their own system files from simple ignorance this could result in quite headache for administrators who may have to constantly repair damaged installations backup we all know the problems backing up local hard disks the backup sets if done via centralized tape system get very large very quickly backup individually to floppy may not happen at all this may be eliminated if it is assumed that local hard disks only contain replaceable applications and not user data the shared windows installation windows is fully installed to network disk via the setup procedure described above users or administrators then install minimal set of files to individual user directories these directories may be on local hard disk or perhaps network home directory the bulk of the windows system files are maintained on the network in single directory some files and are accessed shared as needed by users throughout their windows session the user files consist of small set of files that the user has updated during his her windows session these include group files ini files and other regularly updated files advantages single location for all files makes updates to drives easy as an updated driver becomes available it only needs to be installed in this single directory for all users to be able to take advantage of it assuming that the users files are maintained in network home directories the administrator can easily edit any ini file as needed to correct problems that may arise this includes win ini and system ini backup of all pertinent files is done easily even if the users files are on local hard disk the bulk of the windows system is backed up with all driver updates disadvantages network traffic since all windows files are being shared in network directory traffic on the network can become problem an effect the speed of windows if the network crashes all production comes to stop since window is reliant upon the network for its files loss of data usually occurs as well since users working in windows at the time of the crash will usually not be able to save their work although minimal disk space is still consideration if the users files are maintained on the network large number of users can cause significant utilization of disk space due to their personal windows files alone users cannot easily move from machine to machine unless the workstation hardware are similar this is due to the windows installation being tied to particular username in the case of network user files the discussion would like to know from other administrators with large windows userbase how they prefer setting up windows personally have setup numerous installations using the shared setup all windows and application files are on the network with little or no utilization of local hard disks in fact sold network on the fact that the company would no longer need to purchase hard disks for their workstations and thus save that much more money would also like to see recommendations for applications should apps such as word and or excel be installed locally regardless of how windows is installed again keep all files on the network for easy backup and administration but this is putting all eggs in one basket if the network crashes work comes to halt now am sure microsoft and know your out there has their own ideas about this and their insights would be of great value but hope to hear from people with actual working experience with users and network administration path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech prism ccastco from ccastco prism gatech edu costas malamas newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject re help with changing startup logo message id hydra gatech edu date apr gmt organization georgia institute of technology lines in article apr28 seas gwu edu louray seas gwu edu michael panayiotakis writes in article aa01739 fidonet org doelle p26 f3333 n106 z1 fidonet org doelle writes hello brad monday april brad smalling wrote to crosspost all bs copy win cnf vgalogo lgo vgalogo rle win com unecessary bs grabbed this from supercharging windows by judd robbins great book bs this is also how you can put your own logo into the windows startup might do it too much trouble brad bmp will convert to rle know for fact that paintshop shareware from cica desktop think filename psvvv zip think where vvv is the ver number if that not true let me know and ll this however will write your rle file with bmp extension so you have to rename it your file has to be less than at least that what the faq says but mine wont work for more than about maybe they mend don know agreed mixali your file has to fit vga size or whatever standard vga size is if you use non vga screen cga ega svga there is also way to do it but thing instead of vgalogo lgo you use another file not entirely true also your bmp has to be colours or less true finally remember to save your current win com before and put your new win com in the windows directory also don start windows from unecessary mickey path of least resistance tm get wingif from cica ftp cica indiana edu pub pc win3 desktop it will save to native rle format unlike psp an otherwise fine fine prog make file using anything that has to be less than as michael said and less than colors import it to wingif as gif pcx or bmp and save it in you windows system subdir as vgalogo rle not lgo exit win and run setup in the windows subdir reselect your current config run win voila minor correction the rle file has to be that means gif hope it helps and please please someone put this in the group faq costas malamas georgia institute of technology oit ua oit doesn pay me enough to share its opinions internet ccastco prism gatech edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel louie newsserver jvnc net howland reston ans net gatech prism ccastco from ccastco prism gatech edu costas malamas newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject re windows zip unzip message id hydra gatech edu date apr gmt organization georgia institute of technology lines in article rl9b6 h3c sol deakin oz au russ deakin oz au russ sharp writes we are using pkzip v2 and am interested to hear from people who have used one of the many windows programs that call these is there full windows version that does not call the dos pkzip pkunzip commands russ sharp russ deakin edu au ph fax winzip ftp cica indiana edu pub pc win3 util it is shell it does call dos but very very good one it will also do arc arj and lzh it fully supports pkzip try using it it might be shell very unobtrusive but that also means you dont need to update it with every every other letter of the alphabet version of pkzip hope it helps costas malamas georgia institute of technology oit ua oit doesn pay me enough to share its opinions internet ccastco prism gatech edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu news acns nwu edu uicvm uic edu u09416 organization university of illinois at chicago academic computer center date wed apr cdt from pankaj saxena u09416 uicvm uic edu message id u09416 uicvm uic edu newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject tcp ip through windows lines don know much about computers so please bear with me here my question context use package called slip on my home computer to connect to the university mainframe an ibm running vms mvs and log on to my account when installed slip on my computer had to configure it for my modem kbs etronics internal and had to supply the phone number to dial to reach the mainframe the way it works now is that type telnet uicvm or tn3270 uicvm either will work at the dos prompt uicvm is the node name of the mainframe the program then dials the mainframe establishes protocol and gives me the logon screen telnet and tn3270 are the names of batch files in my slip directory have been told that kermit protocol is used for the session problem would like to be able to do all this under windows because hardly ever use dos directly slip will not run under windows talked to the people at our computer center and they suggested that use packet driver called winpkt com with slip they gave me instructions on how to load it before start windows and how to modify the tcpstart and tcpstop batch files in the slip directory to ensure that it would work did all that and could run slip from windows but there were other problems for one thing slip would not hang up the phone when exited had to run my communi cations program to hang up the phone or reboot the computer when that didn work for another there were too many errors it often took me tries to connect to the mainframe our computer center does not support slip under windows so can keep going back to them with more questions question is there some other shareware package that will run under windows and do what slip is supposed to do need package that is not too expensive which is why am looking for shareware have heard that there are regular commercial packages that do all this but they cost hundreds of dollars these are the main requirements must be able to run under windows must allow vt100 and ibm tn3270 terminal emulation must allow ftp file transfers since that the only kind the mainframe allows no modem or modem etc believe the ftp transfers are made through kermit protocol but hazy about that subsidiary feature that would be nice to have if it true windows program rather than dos program modified to run under windows is the ability to run the session in window concurrently with other applications and to cut and paste between the telnet session and other applications any information received is appreciated pankaj saxena u09416 uicvm uic edu newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester rit isc newsserver psinntp psinntp nstn ns ca news cs indiana edu ux1 cso uiuc edu news cso uiuc edu crh p328 urh uiuc edu kraus uiuc edu from kraus uiuc edu uiuc edu albert kraus subject codabar font summary codabar font date wed apr gmt message id kraus uiuc edu uiuc edu sender usenet news cso uiuc edu net noise owner keywords font organization housing division lines hi need codabar font for win tt or other thanks newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu caen batcomputer munnari oz au newshost anu edu au csc canberra edu au news from pwb aerg canberra edu au paul blackman subject re windows zip unzip message id apr28 csc canberra edu au sender news csc canberra edu au organization university of canberra references rl9b6 h3c sol deakin oz au date wed apr gmt lines in article rl9b6 h3c sol deakin oz au russ deakin oz au russ sharp writes we are using pkzip v2 and am interested to hear from people who have used one of the many windows programs that call these which ones are available and does any one stand out amongst the rest is there full windows version that does not call the dos pkzip pkunzip commands yes russ there is quinzip is windows version but don think it handles all the functions available in the dos version last looked quinzip could be found on the monash university australia mirror site of cica so assume it still on cica itself and other mirrors have look in the util directory for file called qzip21 zip paul blackman pwb science canberra edu au water research centre pwb aerg canberra edu au faculty of applied science university of canberra australia spend little love and get high lenny kravitz path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu sun barr west west sun com male ebay sun com jethro corp sun com usenet from bwana daktari corp sun com don finch newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject windows and imf boards date apr gmt organization sun microsystems computer corp lines distribution world message id rn522 gd jethro corp sun com reply to bwana daktari corp sun com nntp posting host daktari corp sun com keywords windows sound imf midi am interested to know if there is know procedure document to configure an ibm musci feature imf card to work as the sound device with ms windows believe the imf uses the same fm synth chip as the soun blaster but didn know what driver to use or how to configure the midi mapper any help past success suggestions thanks don donald finch technical support engr american solution centers voice microsystems fax email don finch corp sun com mtv07 xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os ms windows setup comp os ms windows misc newsgroups comp os ms windows setup comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu sol ctr columbia edu destroyer cs ubc ca alberta kakwa ucs ualberta ca acs ucalgary ca dbstrutt from dbstrutt acs ucalgary ca david bryan strutt subject re help with changing startup logo message id apr26 acs ucalgary ca date mon apr gmt distribution usa references rgtba gtn access digex net nntp posting host acs5 acs ucalgary ca organization the university of calgary alberta lines in article rgtba gtn access digex net farley access digex com charles farley writes know this is probably faq but installed the for my ati graphics card and it bashed my windows logo files when start windows now it has the logo instead of the logo thought the files that controlled this were windows system vgalogo rle windows system vgalogo lgo restored these files but it didn change the logo anyone know what the correct files are believe you have the correct files think what you ll have to do is go back into setup and choose change video adapter or whatever it is called then the trick is choose the same adaptor you currently have what setup does is it actually changes the file win com whenever you go into it and change the video hardware selection it incorporates the contents of vgalogo rle into win com when you do this this trick can also be used to change the startup logo into whatever you want it to be sig alert dbstrutt acs ucalgary ca end sig alert path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu pitt edu uunet spsgate mogate risc sps mot com risc sps mot com not for mail from wcl risc sps mot com wayne long newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject observation floppy copy works under pgm mgr but not dos shell message id rpabhinnqg7 ome sps mot com date apr gmt organization motorola austin tx lines nntp posting host ome sps mot com has anyone observed this if copy large say file large pkzip file for instance to my floppy drive under ms windows via either program manager or dos shell the file copied under the dos shell has errors whereas the file copied from within program manager does not the corruption is detected by executing pkunzip file zip after both copies the file copied via the dos shell always shows corruption now here the kicker have many windows open while doing this both dos and windows apps supposedly all windows apps share the same time slice whereas the dos apps get their own equal time slice unless overriden so as an example have windows apps open multitasking dos sessions running and one execution execlusive dos shell iconized inactive under this scenario cpu time is divided into two major slices one for all the windows apps and one slice for the running dos app when copying under windows pgm mgr ll assume the other windows and dos tasks are essentially inactive thus pgm mgr gets say of the windows slice and of the execution background dos shell slices thus it gets or of the total available cpu time when copying in dos shell activate the execute exclusive mode dos shell no other dos background tasks allowed full screen under the windows task manager the cpu time available to this shell would be of the windows slice assumming inactive windows applications and of the dos slice or of the total available cpu time so why do get copy errors under dos if it has the greater amount of cpu time is program manager working in pre emptive mode during the floppy copy it must be miscellaneous data running windows on top of dos qemm rapidbios sys mbyte smartdrive no delayed writes two ramdrives logitech mouse driver full mbytes motherboard ram kbyte motherboard cache dx mhz running dos edit com tsr in the dos shell wayne long oe215 internet wcl risc sps mot com william cannon drive west uucp cs texas edu oakhill risc wcl austin texas phone fax newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech psuvax1 news cc swarthmore edu mac6 trotter1 swarthmore edu user from edorn1 cc swarthmore edu evan dorn subject please help wierd problem message id edorn1 mac6 trotter1 swarthmore edu followup to comp os ms windows misc sender news cc swarthmore edu usenet news system nntp posting host mac6 trotter1 swarthmore edu organization swarthmore college date thu apr gmt lines somebody help me cure my poor computer before go insane have problem with my when running windows that appears to be memory related it actually not limited to windows but that where it causes most of my problems ths machine dx33 meg ram kcache trident tvga card pas soundcard windows runs really really slow most of the time slower than on my old sx16 graphics draws fills are slow boots are slow applications are sluggish dialog boxes take up to seconds to appear note some of my other non windows applications do funny things that appear to be related several run slow my mod player crashes the system etc running borland before running windows or any of the other programs completely fixes the problem windows will run as fast as ve ever seen it run easily times faster for graphics than when don run bc beforehand don have memory manager installed in config sys installing emm386 exe does not fix the problem it makes it worse after emm386 is installed running bc will not fix the problem anymore this problem is driving me nuts if you think you can help please reply through the mail thanks evan path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net ira uka de scsing switch ch univ lyon1 fr zaphod crihan fr pipex uknet mcsun fuug funic sauna cs hut fi news cs hut fi kjell from kjell hut fi kjell ljungqvist newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject bj10 and lbp pr drivers needed date apr organization helsinki university of technology lines distribution comp message id kjell apr28154758 laureline hut fi reply to kjell ljungqvist hut fi nntp posting host laureline cs hut fi hello could anybody be so kind and tell me the date and possible ftp location of the most recent win printer drivers for canon bj and canon lbp would really appreciate if you could help me with this thanks in advance kjell hut fi kjell niksula hut fi kjell vipunen hut fi path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu pitt edu gatech howland reston ans net torn watserv2 uwaterloo ca beetle watstar uwaterloo ca gmills from gmills chemical watstar uwaterloo ca phil trodwell newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject re windows zip unzip message id gmills chemical watstar uwaterloo ca date apr gmt references rl9b6 h3c sol deakin oz au sender news watserv2 uwaterloo ca organization university of waterloo lines in article rl9b6 h3c sol deakin oz au russ deakin oz au russ sharp writes we are using pkzip v2 and am interested to hear from people who have used one of the many windows programs that call these which ones are available and does any one stand out amongst the rest is there full windows version that does not call the dos pkzip pkunzip commands do you mean prog that doesn jump to the dos display and then back or create temp dos window if yes then might recommend winzip from ftp cica indiana edu afraid don have the file name or version but you should be able to find it it fully compatible with ver and very functional later phil trodwell this space be happy to ram goddam volt cattle for rent prod into that tub with you right now but not cheap this radio hunter thompson xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os ms windows misc comp os ms windows apps path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu pitt edu uunet boulder ucsu rintintin colorado edu hayesj from hayesj rintintin colorado edu hayes james michael jr newsgroups comp os ms windows misc comp os ms windows apps subject re program manager kills my group files message id apr29 ucsu colorado edu date apr gmt references reiqj qtr access digex net sender news ucsu colorado edu usenet news system organization university of colorado boulder lines nntp posting host rintintin colorado edu in article reiqj qtr access digex net bsmith access digex com barry smith writes any clue some times when enter win progman says that need to rebuild group it quite annoying ve had the same problem with maxtor turned off smartdrive bit disk access etc this same disk aborts norton speed disk nu up to times requesting ndd to be run when attempting to defrag drive at some peoples suggestion reformatted my drive and reloaded dos win from scratch few people found that installing on top of beta on top of caused similar problem so tried this drastic solution when the problem reoccurred didn have the brains not to load and dblespaced the drive get arround the annoyance by copying my grp files to gro when get the message run file manager and copy the offeniding group files from gro ove rthe grp then quit and restart windows if the group is an often used important one this really sucks but pretty sure that the problem is the drive especially with the nsd problem will be going with out over of my memory after finals for to weeks while the guy bought the disk and system from goes over it and either fixes it or replaces the drive can wait to have system that will run consistently with all hte goodies mike hayes knowledge is good faber college motto www knowledge and thoroughness rensselear poly motto unemployed tech no thank you groucho marx day at the races driven to banging my head against engineering physics for years newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu csc ti com tilde csc ti com mksol mccall from mccall mksol dseg ti com fred mccall subject re windows nt und windows message id apr29 mksol dseg ti com organization texas instruments inc references apr26 eurom rhein main de date thu apr gmt lines in apr26 eurom rhein main de hein eurom rhein main de hein roehrig writes am not sure whether am here in the right area but does anybody here know whether windows nt does will include windows server so that it can run window applications remotely no it does not insisting on perfect safety is for people who don have the balls to live in the real world mary shafer nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com don speak for others and they don speak for me newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu csc ti com tilde csc ti com mksol mccall from mccall mksol dseg ti com fred mccall subject re leaking memory resources in message id apr29 mksol dseg ti com organization texas instruments inc references apr199309371113 bpavms bpa arizona edu date thu apr gmt lines in apr199309371113 bpavms bpa arizona edu dmittleman bpavms bpa arizona edu daniel mittleman writes this may be an faq if so please direct me to the known answer but am getting frustrated and looking for help am running win with ndw on sx with meg of memory and meg perm swap file and am getting exceedingly frustrated that my applications are not giving back system resources when close them am aware this is known problem what am looking for are some suggestions of what might do to mitigate it what software is the culprit win ndw my applications are some modes of win standard real enhanced better than others at plugging this leak it the applications that do this unfortunately even the applets that ship with win31 seem to have this problem ve seen it in solitaire for example are their system ini switches can set to help plug this leak none that know of if an application doesn give back the resources they are lost and gone forever pending restart of windows do people know of patches or third party software that help with this seems like increasing or better managing system resources is great market for third party memory company like qemm if the applications don free up the memory and lot of them don there bugger all that any other piece of software can do about it if run progman instead of ndw will the leak subside was hoping that ndw would have plugged this but it seems no different than in how it deals with memory and resources no this is problem with the applications usually when am writing vb code are there things can do to make it less likely my code will eat resources there are books written on this one in general just be sure to free up everything that you ask for before you exit unfortunately understand that vb will internally lose resources for you so there no way to avoid this entirely any other suggestions that don know enough to ask for specifically thanks for your help as this is common problem and have seen only little discussion of it on the net there are probably others who would like to read answers so please publish here rather than sending me email there little discussion because it inevitable until ms manages to come up with an os that will do garbage collection or something on the resource pool insisting on perfect safety is for people who don have the balls to live in the real world mary shafer nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com don speak for others and they don speak for me path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net nic umass edu titan ucs umass edu not for mail from yang titan ucs umass edu huayong yang newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject help how to allocate more memory for disk copying in file manager date apr organization university of massachusetts amherst lines distribution usa message id rq13rinnpie titan ucs umass edu nntp posting host titan ucs umass edu when use file manager disk copy find that windows can read the whole mb disk at one time but only of disk it looks like problem of memory however the pc has mb ram there should be some way to allocat more extended memory for disk copy please advise me on this matter thanks in advance huayong newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu ub acsu buffalo edu mongwa from mongwa acsu buffalo edu kan mongwa subject re windows nt und windows message id c69ybv wi acsu buffalo edu sender nntp acsu buffalo edu nntp posting host autarch acsu buffalo edu organization ub references apr26 eurom rhein main de apr29 mksol dseg ti com date fri apr gmt lines in article apr29 mksol dseg ti com mccall mksol dseg ti com fred mccall writes in apr26 eurom rhein main de hein eurom rhein main de hein roehrig writes am not sure whether am here in the right area but does anybody here know whether windows nt does will include windows server so that it can run window applications remotely no it does not could you add some information to non it does not say for instance your source of information thanks kan mongwa mongwa acsu buffalo edu suny buffalo bitnet v143wxkp ubvms humpty dumpty electrical engineering c143wxkp ubvm xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp periphs printers comp os ms windows apps comp os ms windows misc comp os msdos apps comp os msdos misc newsgroups comp periphs printers comp os ms windows apps comp os ms windows misc comp os msdos apps comp os msdos misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech swrinde sdd hp com hpscit sc hp com cupnews0 cup hp com hppad waterloo hp com rypma from rypma waterloo hp com ted rypma subject re canon bj200 bubblejet and hp deskjet sender news waterloo hp com netnews message id c6a0bv it9 waterloo hp com date fri apr gmt references thomas fellrath nd edu nd edu nntp posting host hppadan waterloo hp com organization hp panacom div waterloo on canada newsreader tin version pl8 followup to comp periphs printers comp os ms windows apps comp os ms windows misc comp os msdos apps comp os msdos misc lines thomas fellrath nd edu nd edu wrote size is another factor the bj is much smaller but the hp is built like tank bet the bj would get damaged first you bet your bippy it built like tank and not just mechanically either this past weekend we had nasty thunderstorm and the impossible happened got direct lightning strike on my house and to the second floor outlet box into which my faithful deskjet was connected there was bullet sized hole in the aluminum siding with some solidified aluminum slag dripping from it you could actually see the electrical box through the hole the outlet itself was fried and still amazed the whole damn house didn burn down lost electric garage door openers vcr telephones all of which were on the opposite side of the house zyxel high speed modem vga monitor x768 color monitor the rs232 and parallel ports on my terminal and wd lan card in my pc not good night but the deskjet ran as soon as found functioning serial and parallel port to connect to it ted slightly singed rypma hp panacom division waterloo ontario newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net torn watserv2 uwaterloo ca mach1 dbrown from dbrown mach1 wlu ca david brown subject quietwriter ii driver newsreader tin version pl6 message id c67595 fcb mach1 wlu ca organization wilfrid laurier university date wed apr gmt lines trying to get hold of an ibm quietwriter ii printer driver for windows if such beast exists can someone suggest how get it please mail me reply directly as don normally read this group many thanks david brown dbrown mach1 wlu ca path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net agate iat holonet net idcbbs les tom from les tom idcbbs com les tom newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject replacement for program message id uupcb idcbbs com date apr gmt distribution world organization idc bbs alameda ca reply to les tom idcbbs com les tom lines maw ying yuan wrote from yuan wiliki eng hawaii edu maw ying yuan subject replacement for program manager and file manager message id c68g1g juj news hawaii edu date thu apr gmt replacements for win3 program manager and file manager yuan wiliki eng hawaii edu hi ve been using plannet crafter plug in for program manager its listed in most bbs es as plugin13 its an add on which gives some needed features to progman such as the ability to better manage your groups change your cursor and icons on the fly constant status of ram and resources quick menu drop down menu of dos commands or app launcher plus some other neat stuff used it liked it and even reg it if you can find it anywhere let me know and ll zip it up and mail it to you shareware version of course aloha es all hope abandon ye who enter messages here slmr idc bbs usr hst usr ds bis alameda california home of kingmail kingqwk and qwkmerge xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp sys ibm pc hardware comp os ms windows apps comp os ms windows misc newsgroups comp sys ibm pc hardware comp os ms windows apps comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu usc sol ctr columbia edu venezia penev from penev rockefeller edu penio penev subject re actix video card drivers for windows message id apr30 sol ctr columbia edu followup to comp sys ibm pc hardware comp os ms windows apps comp os ms windows misc sender nobody ctr columbia edu reply to penev venezia rockefeller edu organization rockefeller university newsreader tin version pl8 references kburg crackle date fri apr gmt posted from venezia rockefeller edu nntp posting host sol ctr columbia edu lines on apr gmt kym burgemeister kburg aelmg adelaide edu au wrote in apr24 jarvis csri toronto edu wongda eecg toronto edu daniel wong writes am looking for the latest drivers for the actix graphics accelerator card the driver am currently using is version and doesn support more than colors in x768 mode even you have mb memory the bbs support for actix is unbelievable they are still using bps modem it will take you hours to download the drivers it hurts when you are calling long distance is there any ftp site that has collection of video drivers for windows good but where are these drivers daniel wong uoft anybody at actix listening upload the dang drivers to an ftp site pleeeeeeese or somebody get them by local call and contact ftp site for uploading if this is not possible can keep them on my disk and email the at request uuencoded provided that somebody sends them to me of cource live in ny penio penev x7423 internet penev venezia rockefeller edu disclaimer all oppinions are mine xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp unix misc comp os ms windows misc comp os os2 advocacy path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu usc usc not for mail from ajayshah almaak usc edu ajay shah newsgroups comp unix misc comp os ms windows misc comp os os2 advocacy subject some info the dos msw meltdown is progressing nicely date apr organization university of southern california los angeles ca lines sender ajayshah almaak usc edu message id rqn1f n3k almaak usc edu nntp posting host almaak usc edu the preferred applications development platform according to of the fortune corporations survey by sentry market research survey all percentages unix mainframe dos msw os midrange this is from corporate computing may page it interesting to see how the greatest vapour project of the world has not been able to make much of difference here before you think it interesting rag they have this incredibly incompetent article opinion piece by someone named robert ziff which has preposturous statements like sun has sold around multiprocessing servers in that case usc has around of all sun mp servers on earth he is off by factor of thought of sending them factual disaster email message they have column titled how to contact us but being silly pcheads they seem to have never heard of the internet these may also be of interest world computer market share by broad category dos windows netware unix ibm mainframe vax vms ibm minis macintosh other totally billion projections are by idc source unix world jan unix hardware sales by category billion installed base workstations million midrange million large scale pc unix million total ajay shah ajayshah rcf usc edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech udel news intercon com psinntp witch spiff eklein newsgroups comp os ms windows misc message id spiff win net reply to eklein spiff win net ed klein from eklein spiff win net ed klein date fri apr gmt subject please do not post bitmaps lines from pwiseman salmon usd edu cliff organization university of south dakota subject roman bmp in response to the requests for cool bitmaps am posting one date pm due to the resolution and size it is in parts this is uuencoded bitmap x600 colors the picture is marbled gazebo on desert with blue sky background the size is just right for centered wallpaper on x768 display because it leaves border at the bottom just big enough for icons to fit in without being on top of the picture reguarding image quality and resolution have not seen much better please do not do this don know how the rest of you read news but here how do it subscribe to an outernet system which allows me to dial up via modem and download mail and news articles automatically when someone posts huge attached binary file have no choice but to receive it along with all the other new articles in the groups subscribe to also pay for the connect time which is normally not problem because have modem and each day upload download session takes only minutes or so today session however lasted about minutes because of roman bmp consequently it cost me about extra just to receive file that didn want in the first place if you have cool bitmaps that you want to make available there are other ways to do it either upload the file to an ftp site like ftp cica indiana edu which has complete windows section and tell people how to get to it or use one of the newsgroups like alt binaries pictures or something like that which are file archives rather than discussion groups don use discussion groups like this one to send out attached files especially when they re in size thanks ed klein eklein spiff win net xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os msdos misc comp os ms windows misc comp sys ibm pc games newsgroups comp os msdos misc comp os ms windows misc comp sys ibm pc games path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech europa eng gtefsd com emory news feed peachnet edu bogus sura net udel news intercon com psinntp roadnet news from dan anderson subject re ms mouse driver reply to dca roadnet ups com organization roadnet technologies inc date thu apr gmt message id apr29 roadnet com references apr27 princeton edu sender news roadnet com news lines in article apr27 princeton edu phoenix princeton edu carlosn carlos niederstrasser writes does anyone have the documentation for the ms mouse driver got it when got windows but my windows manual does not come with the documentation in particular need to know how to turn it off and how to speed it up outside windows the greater sensitivity is needed so can play various games esp wing the sensitivity is changed using the or parameter the commands do the following vertical sensitivity horizontal sensitivity both follow the parameter with number from to slowest fastest the default is you can type the command mouse s75 right from the keyboard or add it to autoexec bat hope this helps newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet pipex sunic ugle unit no troll sipaa sintef no bjorn myrland from bjorn myrland sipaa sintef no bjorn myrland subject re why not using dos anymore message id bjorn myrland sipaa sintef no sender news ugle unit no netnews administrator organization sintef references cda90038 ucf1vm bitnet apr28 ugle unit no date fri apr gmt lines in article apr28 ugle unit no eliza tigern elisabeth bull writes from eliza tigern elisabeth bull subject re why not using dos anymore date wed apr gmt mark woodruff cda90038 ucf1vm bitnet wrote this morning at am while was working on my research paper had to reboot hung dos program that did no disk from within windows when my machine finished rebooting found my windows directory and about two thirds of my other directories were irreversibly corrupted stuff deleted this sounds like what happened to my hd month ago my hd was stacked with stacker run dos5 suddenly everything hung up and most of the hd got corrupted directories changed into unreadable files with funny names in other words it is probably just the doubledisk part of dos6 that is troublesome now use stacker and so far have had no trouble does this need to have anything to do with disk compression have experienced the same thing couple of times myself but without any disk compression stuff installed for example guess what happened when norton speeddisk once crashed during defragmenting bjorn bjorn myrland bjorn myrland sipaa sintef no sintef safety and reliability trondheim norway sintef the foundation for scientific and industrial research at the norwegian institute of technology path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net noc near net argo hks com carina hks com little from little carina hks com jim littlefield newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject printer driver wanted date apr gmt organization hibbitt karlsson sorensen inc lines message id rr4fr ppj argo hks com nntp posting host carina hks com newsreader tin version pl9 looking for printer driver for the apple imagewriter ii this printer is actually the same as citoh jim littlefield only two things are infinite the universe little hks com and human stupidity and am not sure about the former albert einstein newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech hubcap news from charlea eng clemson edu charles allen subject re question on eisa video board performance message id apr30 hubcap clemson edu sender news hubcap clemson edu news organization clemson university references c68ubg k2w world std com date fri apr gmt lines from article c68ubg k2w world std com by cfw world std com christopher wroten have an eisa machine and just do not understand why most eisa video cards only match the performance of their isa counterparts for instance the eisa orchid pro designer iis is only about as fast as the isa diamond speedstar plus which isn what would call fast don understand why eisa video cards aren as group on the same level of performance as local bus cards given that eisa video cards have bit bus to move data around instead of isa bits good question answer the eisa bus does move bits rather than isa but it still moves it at about the speed as the isa bus think that either or mhz the local bus designs also move bits like the eisa but they move the data at the cpu speed up to mhz so on mhz cpu the local bus is moving bit data at mhz and the eisa is moving bit data at or mhz so the local bus should be to times faster than eisa on mhz cpu eisa should be about two maybe times as fast as isa since they are not why would anyone me included pay higher cost for eisa video card when its performance is no better than and often worse that much cheaper isa video board such as diamond speedstar from pc magazine think recent report know that ati makes pretty fast eisa video card but it around which is just about double what my wallet will allow me to spend and for could get diamond viper and still have left over of course have to get local bus mother board too that very good question the eisa bus does have more advantages over the isa bus than just it width for example more better interrupts and bus mastering but these other factors do not impact video card very much they have more impact on file servers with multiple hard drives full throttle network cards cd roms etc can anyone shed some light on my confusion frustration thanks christopher wroten cfw world std com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net gatech psuvax1 psuvm cjs organization penn state university date fri apr edt from christopher sacksteder cjs psuvm psu edu message id cjs psuvm psu edu newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject re windows nt und windows references apr26 eurom rhein main de apr29 mksol dseg ti com c69ybv wi acsu buffalo edu lines in article c69ybv wi acsu buffalo edu mongwa acsu buffalo edu kan mongwa says does anybody here know whether windows nt does will include windows server could you add some information to no it does not say for instance your source of information source for does not comment the cd rom and manuals for the march beta there is no windows server there will there be of course even if microsoft supplies one with nt other vendors will no doubt port their to nt according to recent newsletter from hummingbird communications ltd they announced exceede nt at uniforum the announcement reads like it is here now but there is no order or price info would guess it must be rsn there is dev kit too newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net gatech hubcap news from charlea eng clemson edu charles allen subject re why not using dos anymore message id apr30 hubcap clemson edu sender news hubcap clemson edu news organization clemson university references tittlec67crd efx netcom com date fri apr gmt lines regarding the horror stories about dos6 doubledisk and stacker killing hard drives was wondering if the dos mirror command works on the doubled drive info as well as the normal fat table and partition table if it records the vital doubledisk info then using it daily should go long way toward protecting yourself against the type of catastrophic failure discussed if it doesn then shame on microsoft xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os ms windows setup comp os ms windows misc newsgroups comp os ms windows setup comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet world yon from yon world std com david yon subject lockups in enh mode floppy message id c6aule kjo world std com organization the world public access unix brookline ma distribution usa date fri apr gmt lines hi ve got an older motherboard old as in uses keyboard controller and uses memory interleaving rather than caching it has developed problem where trying to copy files from floppy cause the machine to lock up reset button required but only when in enhanced mode this occurs in norton desktop file manager and when trying to install software running win in standard mode works fine has anyone run into this any ideas much thanks appreciated david yon world std com newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu ub csn teal csn org richardf from richardf teal csn org iriemon subject re leaking memory resources in message id c6aw83 h7v csn org sender news csn org the daily planet nntp posting host teal csn org organization colorado supernet inc newsreader tin pl4 references apr199309371113 bpavms bpa arizona edu date fri apr gmt lines dmittleman bpavms bpa arizona edu daniel mittleman writes this may be an faq if so please direct me to the known answer but am getting frustrated and looking for help am running win with ndw on sx with meg of memory and meg perm swap file and am getting exceedingly frustrated that my applications are not giving back system resources when close them ve noticed this also the way it was explained to me is that windows does not clear the upper memory blocks after program is done anyone out there know if this is why path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu cleveland freenet edu cu826 from cu826 cleveland freenet edu mahbub anam newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject dos6 novell netware date apr gmt organization case western reserve university cleveland oh usa lines message id rre2d usenet ins cwru edu reply to cu826 cleveland freenet edu mahbub anam nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu friend of mine installed dos6 at work and is hooked up to novell network running netware the problem he having is that the doublespace program is using drive as the swap drive which is confliting with the networks mapped drives is there switch to place the swap drive to someother drive please mail thanks bunch mahbub cu826 cleveland freenet edu xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp sys ibm pc hardware comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet oracle unrepliable bounce newsgroups comp sys ibm pc hardware comp os ms windows misc from ebosco us oracle com eric bosco subject where to put my swap file ide or scsi message id apr28 oracle us oracle com sender usenet oracle us oracle com oracle news poster nntp posting host monica us oracle com reply to ebosco us oracle com organization oracle corp redwood shores ca date wed apr gmt disclaimer this message was written by an unauthenticated user at oracle corporation the opinions expressed are those of the user and not necessarily those of oracle lines have sx and recently added scsi drive to my system using an adaptec non busmastering controller yesterday ran coretest to find out drive performance and these are the values got seagate meg kb sec ms avg seek ms track to track quantum meg scsi kb sec avg seek track to track first off all are these good results don know what typical values are what wondering now is the following my swap file is currently on the ide could move it to the scsi which is faster but then would not be able to use bit access which might actuall make it slower so on which drive should put my swap file to get best results is there swap file speed test program out there finally also ran the above tests with the aspi2dos driver loaded and got no difference whatsoever in performance is there any reason at all why should load this driver thanks in advance will post summary if get enough responses eric path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet oracle unrepliable bounce newsgroups comp os ms windows misc from ebosco us oracle com eric bosco subject emm386 and windows message id apr28 oracle us oracle com sender usenet oracle us oracle com oracle news poster nntp posting host monica us oracle com reply to ebosco us oracle com organization oracle corp redwood shores ca date wed apr gmt disclaimer this message was written by an unauthenticated user at oracle corporation the opinions expressed are those of the user and not necessarily those of oracle lines on my pc almost exclusively run windows the only dos based application have is procommplus in my config sys have emm386 loaded with the option noems no expanded memory following thread in one of the comp newsgroups read that it was no necessary to have emm386 loaded indeed in the manual it says that emm386 is used to get expanded memory out of extended memory since have the noems option it seems to me that the emm386 device is useless in my case should use emm386 or should remove it from my config sys thanks for your help eric xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp unix misc comp os ms windows misc comp os os2 advocacy newsgroups comp unix misc comp os ms windows misc comp os os2 advocacy path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com ux1 cso uiuc edu bert eecs uic edu zmola from zmola bert eecs uic edu carl zmola subject re some info the dos msw meltdown is progressing nicely message id apr30 bert eecs uic edu organization university of illinois at chicago references rqn1f n3k almaak usc edu date fri apr gmt lines ajayshah almaak usc edu ajay shah writes the preferred applications development platform according to of the fortune corporations survey by sentry market research survey all percentages unix mainframe dos msw os midrange this is from corporate computing may page it interesting to see how the greatest vapour project of the world has not been able to make much of difference here world computer market share by broad category dos windows netware unix ibm mainframe vax vms ibm minis macintosh other projections are by idc source unix world jan sombody data is wrong since mac os finder systerm or whatever you want to call it doesn appear in the first survey tend to doubt their results more just because sombody wrote it doesn mean its correct carl zmola cicero spc uchicago edu xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp sys ibm pc hardware comp os ms windows misc newsgroups comp sys ibm pc hardware comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet news smith edu root from ebrewer science smith edu subject re where to put my swap file ide or scsi message id apr30 sophia smith edu keywords sender root sophia smith edu operator organization smith college references apr28 oracle us oracle com distribution na date fri apr gmt lines in article apr28 oracle us oracle com ebosco us oracle com writes have sx and recently added scsi drive to my system using an adaptec non busmastering controller yesterday ran coretest to find out drive performance and these are the values got seagate meg kb sec ms avg seek ms track to track quantum meg scsi kb sec avg seek track to track first off all are these good results don know what typical values are those are pretty typical believe what wondering now is the following my swap file is currently on the ide could move it to the scsi which is faster but then would not be able to use bit access which might actuall make it slower so on which drive should put my swap file to get best results is there swap file speed test program out there keep the swap file on the ide bit access is worth fair amount more than newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu ub newserve sarah uacsc2 albany edu jc924 from jc924 uacsc2 albany edu subject why are our desktop fonts changing message id bc0956b jc924 uacsc2 albany edu sender news sarah albany edu news administrator organization university at albany albany ny newsreader nnr vm date fri apr edt lines one of our users is having an unusual problem if she does an alt tab to full screen dos program when she goes back to windows her desktop fonts have changed if she goes back to full screen dos program and then goes back to windows the font has changed back to its default font it not major problem everything works and the font is legible but it is annoying does anyone have any idea why this happens by the way she has dec d2lp machine jeffrey cohen voice office for research ad fax the university at albany mail jc924 uacsc2 albany edu state university of new york washington ave albany ny path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu uunet spsgate mogate risc sps mot com risc sps mot com not for mail from wcl risc sps mot com wayne long newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject re replacement for program manager and file manager date apr organization motorola austin tx lines message id rrd0uinn1rb ome sps mot com references c68g1g juj news hawaii edu nntp posting host ome sps mot com yuan wiliki eng hawaii edu maw ying yuan writes hi there could someone please suggest one of the better shareware replacements for win3 program manager and file manager and which ftp site are they located at thanks in advance for mail response please post your response as well think many would be interested in this one thank you wayne long oe215 internet wcl risc sps mot com william cannon drive west uucp cs texas edu oakhill risc wcl austin texas phone fax path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet pipex warwick kinguni2 kinguni not for mail from ee d316 ceres kingston ac uk steve warner newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject windows nt should upgrade date apr organization kingston university kingston upon thames lines distribution world message id rrhe0inn2p7 ceres kingston ac uk nntp posting host ceres kingston ac uk hi am thinking of upgrading to the beta version of windows nt on sx mhz mb hard disc can someone please give me there opion on such setup for running nt and is the operating system likely to be better than windows or unix steve ee d316 uk ac king ceres xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os ms windows setup comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu pitt edu zaphod mps ohio state edu usc sol ctr columbia edu eff ssd intel com ichips pdx222 mlin from mlin pdx222 nosubdomain nodomain ming lin newsgroups comp os ms windows setup comp os ms windows misc subject x1024 video board keywords ati windows message id apr30 ichips intel com date apr gmt references rju4p hah access digex net jhardy cunews sender news ichips intel com news account reply to mlin ichips intel com distribution usa organization workgroup computing division pdx intel lines hi there plan on upgrading my monitor and video card to x1024 have dx2 isa no local bus system would appreciate if anyone can drop me an email of your experience with high resolution video board monitor thanks ming lin mlin ichips intel com xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp sys ibm pc misc comp os ms windows misc newsgroups comp sys ibm pc misc comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com ux1 cso uiuc edu news cso uiuc edu reddy cba uiuc edu gmichael from gmichael vmd cso uiuc edu gary michael subject vesa driver for ibm xga date fri apr gmt message id gmichael vmd cso uiuc edu sender usenet news cso uiuc edu net noise owner organization office for information management university of illinois lines can anyone tell me where to find standard vesa display driver that will support the on the motherboard xga video of mz dx2 ibm model lf need to use and higher resolutions under both windows and ms dos minimum colors at highest resolution with colors needed at gary michael phone associate director fax office for information management mail gmichael vmd cso uiuc edu university of illinois david kinley hall novanet gary michael duosoft cerl west gregory drive urbana il newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu swrinde network ucsd edu pacbell com kjkeirn from kjkeirn srv pacbell com ken keirnan subject fast display adaptors for windows message id apr30 pacbell com sender news pacbell com pacific bell netnews organization pacific bell date fri apr gmt lines friend and have ati graphic ultra display adaptors and they have been reasonably good performers but we both have had irritating compatibility problems with the ati drivers and are ready to change to something faster and more compatible with windows have heard rumblings that the new orchid card is very fast anyone have experience with this card what is currently available that is fast compatible does x1024x256 non interlaced and cost under ken keirnan ken keirnan pacific bell kjkeirn srv pacbell com san ramon california newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu news cso uiuc edu sinclairj1 ppath uiuc edu ardie from ardie ux1 cso uiuc edu ardie mack subject re emm386 and windows date fri apr gmt message id ardie ux1 cso uiuc edu references apr28 oracle us oracle com sender usenet news cso uiuc edu net noise owner organization department of plant pathology lines on my pc almost exclusively run windows the only dos based application have is procommplus in my config sys have emm386 loaded with the option noems no expanded memory following thread in one of the comp newsgroups read that it was no necessary to have emm386 loaded indeed in the manual it says that emm386 is used to get expanded memory out of extended memory since have the noems option it seems to me that the emm386 device is useless in my case should use emm386 or should remove it from my config sys thanks for your help eric emm386 noems enables the system to use the upper memory between and that good place for device drivers dos kernal etc keep it in xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu concert duke news duke edu kdb from kdb sunbar mc duke edu mc duke edu kurt bollacker newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc subject challenge to microsoft supporters message id news duke edu date apr gmt sender news news duke edu followup to alt fan bill gates lines nntp posting host dukebar mc duke edu newsreader tin version pl9 microsoft is the largest software company on the planet yet cannot think of even one computing concept that they innovated and brought to market before anyone else xerox parc apple osborne next gnu and others have been pioneers and led the way to the future of computing what has microsoft done to be technological leader posted this question before but got nary reply make the challenge now to anyone who can come up with something especially microsoft employees get no response this time guess it pretty much assures me that there is none which is what suspect anyway kurt bollacker duke university medical center kdb sunbar mc duke edu durham nc xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech concert samba usenet from dil admin mhs unc edu dave laudicina subject re challenge to microsoft supporters message id apr30 samba oit unc edu sender usenet samba oit unc edu nntp posting host dil adp unc edu organization unc office of information technology date fri apr gmt lines microsoft is the largest software company on the planet yet cannot think of even one computing concept that they innovated and brought to market before anyone else xerox parc apple osborne next gnu and others have been pioneers and led the way to the future of computing what has microsoft done to be technological leader posted this question before but got nary reply make the challenge now to anyone who can come up with something especially microsoft employees get no response this time guess it pretty much assures me that there is none which is what suspect anyway really when you come down to it who cares just hope ms keeps doing what they do best getting usable productive software to the masses thx dave path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net gatech destroyer cs ubc ca mala bc ca apland from apland mala bc ca ron apland newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject re dos6 novell netware message id apr30 mala bc ca date apr references rre2d usenet ins cwru edu organization malaspina college lines in article rre2d usenet ins cwru edu cu826 cleveland freenet edu mahbub anam writes friend of mine installed dos6 at work and is hooked up to novell network running netware the problem he having is that the doublespace program is using drive as the swap drive which is confliting with the networks mapped drives is there switch to place the swap drive to someother drive please mail thanks bunch mahbub cu826 cleveland freenet edu determine the last dblspace drive required and set that as lastdrive in your config sys if you are using w4ww you might want to go couple of drives higher to give you some shared drive space reboot and novell will set its first drive one above the lastdrive in config sys you might have to remap some of your novell drives if they were originally mapped to lower drives make sure that the bat file or whatever you are using to log onto novell is set to the correct drive one above the lastdrive setting in the config sys file path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net agate dog ee lbl gov network ucsd edu adean from adean weber ucsd edu anthony dean newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject winlogo date apr gmt organization university of california at san diego lines distribution usa message id rrqj1 hq2 network ucsd edu nntp posting host weber ucsd edu hi like to substitute the exciting win3 opening logo for our own company logo at boot up time is this matter of replacing the logo file with our own logo and what format should the company logo be in thanks avdean xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp unix misc comp os ms windows misc comp os os2 advocacy newsgroups comp unix misc comp os ms windows misc comp os os2 advocacy path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com decwrl decwrl netcomsv netcom com messina from messina netcom com tony porczyk subject re some info the dos msw meltdown is progressing nicely message id messinac6b7zl iho netcom com organization messina software references rqn1f n3k almaak usc edu date fri apr gmt lines ajayshah almaak usc edu ajay shah writes the preferred applications development platform according to of the fortune corporations survey by sentry market research survey unix mainframe dos msw development of what in house apps maybe but certainly not apps to be sold on an open market statistics like that are laughable because they may simply mean that there are not enough shrink wrapped usable apps for unix and they have to be developed disproportionately often as compared to the installed unix base xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu sample eng ohio state edu purdue mentor cc purdue edu noose ecn purdue edu soils ecn purdue edu dev from dev soils ecn purdue edu larry weeks subject re challenge to microsoft supporters message id c6b79g noose ecn purdue edu sender news noose ecn purdue edu usenet news organization purdue university engineering computer network references apr30 samba oit unc edu date fri apr gmt lines dil admin mhs unc edu dave laudicina once wrote microsoft is the largest software company on the planet yet cannot think of even one computing concept that they innovated and brought to market before anyone else xerox parc apple osborne next gnu and others have been pioneers and led the way to the future of computing what has microsoft done to be technological leader posted this question before but got nary reply make the challenge now to anyone who can come up with something especially microsoft employees get no response this time guess it pretty much assures me that there is none which is what suspect anyway really when you come down to it who cares just hope ms keeps doing what they do best getting usable productive software to the masses personally ll be blasphemous and say that if microsoft keeps doing what it does so well hope to see much harsher stricter copyright and patent laws for computer algorithms concepts interfaces and other intellectual properties to protect real innovators hate to be one who actually does innovate and then have microsoft come in like huge vulture and use their brute mass development staff marketing etc to get fat off of my innovation don have all that much sympathy for apple complaint against microsoft since they just took the ideas from xerox pa research center when the federal government forced xerox to disclose their patents over antitrust fears however for other companies and individuals who have great idea yet get it borrowed by larger corporations who can afford to quickly bring it to market without any licensing from the original innovator feel much sympathy larry larry weeks those who fight monsters should make sure that dev ecn purdue edu in the process he does not become monster and when you look long into an abyss the abyss also looks into you friedrich nietszche xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os ms windows misc comp os ms windows setup newsgroups comp os ms windows misc comp os ms windows setup path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu concert samba pswecker from pswecker med unc edu peter st wecker n4yrj subject western digital c31 driver message id apr30 samba oit unc edu originator pswecker pelham sender usenet samba oit unc edu nntp posting host pelham med unc edu organization unc school of medicine date fri apr gmt lines know that ve seen this question asked before but don remember seeing any answers so here it is again does any one know of an ftp site where the wd90c31 driver might reside ve checked cica and sure it not there refering to the new version of the driver that came out in have seen it on serve but hesitate to meg at bps unless really have to alternativly is it possible to get paradise or wd to mail me the new drivers or don they do that finally is it even worth the hassle of getting these things or is there not much improvement over my version thanks for the info peter peter st wecker n4yrj internet pswecker med unc edu uucp pswecker uncmed uucp dept of physiology univ of north carolina chapel hill nc newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet uenics toelle from toelle uenics evansville edu chad toelle subject how to change an icon for program in windows message id apr30 uenics evansville edu organization university of evansville distribution usa date fri apr gmt lines suppose you want to change the particular icon for program in windows such as the ms dos one would someone let me know how you can do this thanks million chad toelle toelle evansville edu st philip rd or mt vernon in uunet evansville edu toelle xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os ms windows misc comp os ms windows programmer misc newsgroups comp os ms windows misc comp os ms windows programmer misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl netcomsv netcom com cosmos from cosmos netcom com cosmos subject required file format of word for ms window file doc message id cosmosc6bcz0 kee netcom com organization netcom on line communication services guest distribution usa date fri apr gmt lines hi am trying to develop utility to view word for window file but to do that need to know the format of the doc word for window file format files can anybody tell me what is the format of doc file or direct me where can get it or is it proprietory format your help is greatly appriciated thanks newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net torn nott hobbit gandalf ca pwilson from pwilson gandalf ca paul wilson gandalf toronto sales subject wanted tt font creator package free message id apr30 gandalf ca keywords true type fonts organization gandalf data ltd distribution na uk date fri apr gmt lines looking for way to get our company logo onto documents and figure the easiest way is to put it into font are there any public domain programs that can do this is there any shareware that will do this any help is appreciated paul paul wilson pwilson gandalf ca xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet mcsun uknet pipex sunic aun uninett no nuug dhhalden no pc134 dhhalden no thomasez from thomasez dhhalden no thomas lundquist subject re challenge to microsoft supporters message id thomasez dhhalden no lines sender news dhhalden no network news user nntp posting host pc134 organization ostfold college references news duke edu date fri apr gmt in article news duke edu kdb sunbar mc duke edu mc duke edu kurt bollacker writes from kdb sunbar mc duke edu mc duke edu kurt bollacker subject challenge to microsoft supporters date apr gmt microsoft is the largest software company on the planet yet cannot think of even one computing concept that they innovated and brought to market before anyone else xerox parc apple osborne next gnu and others have been pioneers and led the way to the future of computing what has microsoft done to be technological leader posted this question before but got nary reply make the challenge now to anyone who can come up with something especially microsoft employees get no response this time guess it pretty much assures me that there is none which is what suspect anyway kurt bollacker duke university medical center kdb sunbar mc duke edu durham nc they invented the how to make money on others ideas they made money they weren in the air at the wrong time admit it billg is damn smart guy how many out there can make money on almost useless products useless even if you look at the time dos were written it stinked already then if could choose one marketing guy in the world think would choose him he so good that almost everyone hates him but they still use his stuff thomasez not perfect but perfect for you shavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalessha vethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavet hewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavebillgatesshavethewhalesshavethew halesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhal esshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhaless xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp windows comp os ms windows misc newsgroups comp windows comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net gatech news ans net newsgate watson ibm com yktnews watson ibm com hawnews watson ibm com news from kaul vnet ibm com subject x11 servers for ms windows available sender news hawnews watson ibm com nntp news poster message id c6bdzu g6h hawnews watson ibm com date fri apr gmt news software ibm os pm rn nr v0 by vishnepolsky and rogers lines reply to kaul vnet ibm com disclaimer this posting represents the poster views not necessarily those of ibm nntp posting host kaul bocaraton ibm com organization ibm boca raton visual subsystems have the text on the non un x11 servers so do know that there are x11 servers available for use with mswindows my question is does anybody have any relevant information on the usability of these servers has anyone tried to use them on token ring network and gotten them to work dick kaul my opinions only not official ibm positions etc ibm xga development they make me wear suit if were to speak for ibm boca raton fl the use of unnecessary violence in the apprehension kaul vnet ibm com of the blues brothers has been approved xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp sys ibm pc misc comp os ms windows misc newsgroups comp sys ibm pc misc comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech news ans net newsgate watson ibm com yktnews watson ibm com hawnews watson ibm com news from kaul vnet ibm com subject re vesa driver for ibm xga sender news hawnews watson ibm com nntp news poster message id c6bdu8 npm hawnews watson ibm com date fri apr gmt news software ibm os pm rn nr v0 by vishnepolsky and rogers lines reply to kaul vnet ibm com disclaimer this posting represents the poster views not necessarily those of ibm references gmichael vmd cso uiuc edu nntp posting host kaul bocaraton ibm com organization ibm boca raton visual subsystems in gmichael vmd cso uiuc edu gmichael vmd cso uiuc edu gary michael writes can anyone tell me where to find standard vesa display driver that will support the on the motherboard xga video of mz dx2 ibm model lf need to use and higher resolutions under both windows and ms dos minimum colors at highest resolution with colors needed at the ibm xga svga vesa driver is on the reference diskette available from the ibm bbs it also on compu erve or you can bang on your sales rep to get you later version dick kaul my opinions only not official ibm positions etc ibm xga development they make me wear suit if were to speak for ibm boca raton fl the use of unnecessary violence in the apprehension kaul vnet ibm com of the blues brothers has been approved path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu darwin sura net gatech hubcap ncrcae ncrhub2 ncr mpd greg reinacker from greg reinacker ftcollins ncr com newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject windows on line review uploaded message id greg reinacker apr30133612 gershwin ftcollins ncr com date apr gmt sender uucp ncr mpd ftcollinsco ncr com reply to greg reinacker ftcollinsco ncr com organization ncr microelectronics ft collins co lines have uploaded the windows on line review shareware edition to ftp cica indiana edu as pub pc win3 uploads wolrs7 zip it is an on line magazine which contains reviews of some shareware products grabbed it from the windows on line bbs greg reinacker x9289 ncr microelectronic products division voiceplus danfield court greg reinacker ftcollinsco ncr com fort collins co newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu ub acsu buffalo edu cmj from cmj acsu buffalo edu christophe johnson subject re how redirect print manager to file message id c6bfj7 d3w acsu buffalo edu sender nntp acsu buffalo edu nntp posting host lictor acsu buffalo edu organization ub references apr24 debbie cc nctu edu tw hpcc01 corp hp com date fri apr gmt lines in hpcc01 corp hp com reed hpcc01 corp hp com perry reed writes hpcc01 comp os ms windows misc u7911093 cc nctu edu tw by swh am apr hello who can tell me where can find the pd or shareware which can capture windows output of printer mananger if you are planning on using this on regular basis conncting the printer to file can become bothersome because windows then asks you for the filename that you want to create ve found that putting line in system ini in the ports section with just path and filename works the only problem is that if you send more than one job the second one deletes the first chris cmj acsu buffalo edu is christopher johnson pgp public key encryption for the masses disclaimer didn say that pgp encrypted mail welcome pgp public key pgp public keys toxicwaste mit edu orwell may very well have been correct he just had the year wrong me xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc newsgroups comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net agate headwall stanford edu nntp stanford edu chemistry stanford edu kocks from kocks chemistry stanford edu peter kocks subject telnet terminal for windows message id apr30 leland stanford edu keywords tcp ip telnet ftp sender news leland stanford edu mr news organization dsg stanford university ca usa date fri apr gmt lines looking for good terminal program that will connect to tcp ip using windows some basic ms window that is connect to unix host would be great any suggestions thanks peter kocks kocks chemistry stanford edu xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc alt fan bill gates path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu andrew cmu edu ks3l from kenton shaver ks3l andrew cmu edu newsgroups comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc alt fan bill gates subject re challenge to microsoft supporters date fri apr organization sponsored account systems group carnegie mellon pittsburgh pa lines message id fsnc1600wb35b14wp andrew cmu edu references apr30 samba oit unc edu c6b79g noose ecn purdue edu nntp posting host andrew cmu edu in reply to c6b79g noose ecn purdue edu has ms innovated anything really when you come down to it who cares just hope ms keeps doing what they do best getting usable productive software to the masses lets see what ms products don have major bugs in them oh but the fifth release the bugs are generally cleared up even if their customers must buy new releases from them that are little more than bug fixes anyone who buys computer system and then runs ms windows on it is in desperate need of sympathy oh wait ms innovated the plastic housing on the ms mouse didn they logitech inside personally ll be blasphemous and say that if microsoft keeps doing what it does so well hope to see much harsher stricter copyright and patent laws for computer algorithms concepts interfaces and other intellectual properties to protect real innovators hate to be one who actually does innovate and then have microsoft come in like huge vulture and use their brute mass development staff marketing etc to get fat off of my innovation don have all that much sympathy for apple complaint against microsoft since they just took the ideas from xerox pa research center when the federal government forced xerox to disclose their patents over antitrust fears however for other companies and individuals who have great idea yet get it borrowed by larger corporations who can afford to quickly bring it to market without any licensing from the original innovator feel much sympathy larry larry weeks those who fight monsters should make sure that dev ecn purdue edu in the process he does not become monster and when you look long into an abyss the abyss also looks into you friedrich nietszche you can even really call it secondary creativity when company gathers together bunch of knock off packages and peddles them to neophytes if ms does anything it appears someone has to do it first it appears that ms is finding out that throwing money at technological problems is by no means guaranteed solution kenton cmu edu os fixes broken windows newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc venice gumby dsd trw com deneva anthrax reimert from reimert anthrax etdesg trw com scott reimert subject re windows nt should upgrade message id be19d7d deneva sdd trw com sender news deneva sdd trw com organization trw inc redondo beach ca references rrhe0inn2p7 ceres kingston ac uk date fri apr gmt lines in article rrhe0inn2p7 ceres kingston ac uk ee d316 ceres kingston ac uk steve warner writes hi am thinking of upgrading to the beta version of windows nt on sx mhz mb hard disc can someone please give me there opion on such setup for running nt and is the operating system likely to be better than windows or unix steve ee d316 uk ac king ceres ve been using windows nt tm since the october release and have to say that the march release is really big improvement windows nt tm is becomming usable there are few things to consider before you make the leap though first for me at least is that you cannot get full speed dos box what mean is cannot for instance run falcon or any other resourse intensive program in dos box it absolutley crawls and my machine is with mb hd and mb ram if anyone knows how to get fast dos box or full screen for that matter please let me know the second thing is there are still not many drivers around for stuff for instance my pas has been demoted to running as sound blaster which is natively supported nice because mediavision hasn produced drivers yet your disk should be large enough to keep an mb dos partition and give the rest over to windows nt tm the only thing is whenever you wanted to run windows programs you have to reboot and log into windows nt tm instead of just typing win windows nt tm does seem to be much more stable than normal windows though it be good choice if you have the resources you should really have at least mb ram though one last thing modems work well enough but have yet to get my fax card to work and ve never heard of anyone else who did either it only better than unix because it runs killer software out of the box whereas with unix there isn the same availablity guess it comes down to windows nt tm is not yet for the faint of heart it still beta but it very good beta scott reimert reimert mamacass etdesg trw com standard disclaimer redondo beach ca blah blah blah always store beer in cool dark place newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu csc ti com tilde csc ti com mksol mccall from mccall mksol dseg ti com fred mccall subject re windows nt und windows message id apr30 mksol dseg ti com organization texas instruments inc references apr26 eurom rhein main de apr29 mksol dseg ti com c69ybv wi acsu buffalo edu date fri apr gmt lines in c69ybv wi acsu buffalo edu mongwa acsu buffalo edu kan mongwa writes in article apr29 mksol dseg ti com mccall mksol dseg ti com fred mccall writes in apr26 eurom rhein main de hein eurom rhein main de hein roehrig writes am not sure whether am here in the right area but does anybody here know whether windows nt does will include windows server so that it can run window applications remotely no it does not could you add some information to non it does not say for instance your source of information have copy it isn in there microsoft says it will not be in the release version either he just asked if it did or not told him thanks you re welcome insisting on perfect safety is for people who don have the balls to live in the real world mary shafer nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com don speak for others and they don speak for me xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu axa12 slip cwru edu ashok from ashok biochemistry cwru edu ashok aiyar newsgroups comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc subject re telnet terminal for windows date fri apr organization cwru school of medicine lines message id ashok biochemistry cwru edu references apr30 leland stanford edu nntp posting host axa12 slip dialin cwru edu keywords tcp ip telnet ftp in article apr30 leland stanford edu kocks chemistry stanford edu peter kocks writes looking for good terminal program that will connect to tcp ip using windows some basic ms window that is connect to unix host would be great any suggestions take look at winqvt net the latest version is qvt net it comes in versions that are direct to packet driver as well as pc nfs version it is priced quite low registration student registration and is nice package comes complete with vt220 terminal emulation ftp pop3 client lpr and nntp client you can ftp it from biochemistry bioc cwru edu pub qvtnet qvtnet34 zip it was also uploaded to ftp cica indiana edu recently ashok ashok aiyar mail ashok biochemistry cwru edu department of biochemistry tel cwru school of medicine cleveland ohio fax newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu utnut utcsri newsflash concordia ca cumin telecom uqam ca cc umontreal ca simardde from simardde ere umontreal ca simard denis subject re windows zip unzip message id dangs mistral ere umontreal ca sender news cc umontreal ca administration de cnews organization universite de montreal references rl9b6 h3c sol deakin oz au apr28 csc canberra edu au date fri apr gmt lines pwb aerg canberra edu au paul blackman writes in article rl9b6 h3c sol deakin oz au russ deakin oz au russ sharp writes we are using pkzip v2 and am interested to hear from people who have used one of the many windows programs that call these which ones are available and does any one stand out amongst the rest is there full windows version that does not call the dos pkzip pkunzip commands yes russ there is quinzip is windows version but don think it handles all the functions available in the dos version the problem is that quinzip is very very slow so think that winzip is still the best choice to use pkzip in windows denis simard montreal simardde ere umontreal ca newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net noc near net black clarku edu vax clarku edu rmohns from rmohns vax clarku edu subject re help with changing startup logo message id apr93 vax clarku edu sender news black clarku edu usenet news system organization clark university references aa01739 fidonet org apr28 seas gwu edu date apr gmt lines in previous article louray seas gwu edu michael panayiotakis wrote in article aa01739 fidonet org doelle p26 f3333 n106 z1 fidonet org doelle writes hello brad monday april brad smalling wrote to crosspost all bs since don know your setup bs copy win cnf vgalogo lgo vgalogo rle win com bs grabbed this from supercharging windows by judd robbins great book bs this is also how you can put your own logo into the windows startup now another thing this is from the windows faq your file has to be less than at least that what the faq says but mine wont work for more than about maybe they mend don know com files are limited to total size of kb thus win cfn plus vgalogo log plus your rle file must be less than kb thus your rle file should be around kb rob any resemblance between the above views and rob those of my faculty advisor my terminal or mohns the view out my window are purely coinci dental richard traina may or may not rmohns vax support said views but probably doesn clarku edu want clarkies to think about them newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet das wang com wang dbushong from dbushong wang com dave bushong subject re more cool bmp files organization wang labs lowell ma usa distribution usa date fri apr gmt message id c6aw0v k5q wang com references apr17 gmuvax2 gmu edu apr20 dlss2 adair atldbs dbsoftware com lines adair atldbs dbsoftware com owen adair writes in article apr20 dlss2 james dlss2 james cummings writes newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path atldbs uupsi psinntp uunet gatech howland reston ans net bogus sura net darwin sura net convex seas smu edu void dalnet dlss2 james from james dlss2 james cummings subject re more cool bmp files message id apr20 dlss2 organization redrock development references apr17 gmuvax2 gmu edu distribution usa date tue apr gmt lines in article apr17 gmuvax2 gmu edu rwang gmuvax2 gmu edu john wang writes hi everybody guess my subject has said it all it is getting boring looking at those same old bmp files that came with windows so am wondering if there is any body has some beautiful bmp file can share or maybe somebody can tell me some ftp site for some bmp files like some scenery files some animals files etc used to have some unfortunately delete them all anyway could me give me some help please in response to different kinda wallpaper here what use think the original gif whatever was called not real the artist name and logo is in the lower right corner you will need vga think and have this sized for x600 color screens use this in your windows directory and do not tile it hope you enjoy try this one on for size rather not post her name but if you email me ll tell you who she is enjoy begin big1 zip m4 akdl e545 yq tba k8a hh6 g8j bh cp wt8c jplp i8 mid93b hn kh le t0f aij0l1 xn bi8m g7n b5 hw oi oob l5psc m3 or ggg kqqam nm9xy4l d3v om yay nq mv7 ey vc xqsv9 rwlt8u ylx py wn m3 wcg sswig ti xr st xsb z8q mb n7 of qbyr7 qy xg78 ddy9 s4p6 jsg mfu gc1f o7y mdy9r1xkojs26 k3 kegse gqd8kilw mwipza qjs in an im ov f05kpwqvegc uo mqj jyxrijfllyjx vp y63r xuulosmyv ynx s09xw qq qn5jb xg57 fs1h ghldm8s5 n6 dt m3 r9mx nt rrri xz1s ms me8o q3 nx do b7qb uk o9 po8 w3 mu7 fl1 qwws u5 jv3 nxo ylw wc0w uw r4t c4 ps gw yeulxw m8wogzf5cx c2 po v5hu wqi ows mm5 s8vc dxx eo wrr83sx my qz ym of nu cx qo swz gs mz yv qlt xro obq qd ay wp ws p7 ab wqcw sb tq gxu wj mu5 g1o t8 oe l7j xy wq pv gwqm mo gr yoq w2 ku hqg m6 ioqg wli qre8 uo kou uzw m3 aykxt lh jq ma zj5 dj y6 a5ok bw peb gn jj pt ls9c ct dc zr j4d8npg q7 c5uya1 cs czb9x m5 a5qrw esp b1i lm g23 cjvnwbj xsk av cv gxr ex33 gsy plqiw iwue mixlk cjmskq npi wsoh mb bl hi akq9v5 lx md0 siqm yr yku rp og w5v wm sv c7n wu a3oo7 nz gnm es dtk bro eg zt3 xxen y5m h1nuv m1 qc2p h5 jd0 t7om aow jpnx rr afc rpdd vg pf5 b8 syl mc xdmf w3 cav dsm q7xucg1 drz nkc m8t hl9 zaz0ri mto8x1 lhz7kjt ci h6 mr zp2 dh c7 jm lkt1 pi no g9o c6t be mx fb fx9vryh mrn6 cbg xi je4 r42j5 qa7upr7n t1 d4c u3e0 khd8u mm g5 glqqzrex b1ymi mf kq9w 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yk3n g7mau y55 irbg mqkl3 hi cev8 ru20 ds tr wp ui op mr ip2md fbo mh xbb0t67 m2f1 ic mt b4 enx fv av qmzje uz nno pw1 m9 j4x zwrk5 ah styzk hqb ok uhb3 x9 a0 t3 ob lr thx1dg yf oa kyhh mr cgj ho gu2 dh t91 hb m67 wm bk vs9 fg uy08 nx h2q xbk9xy yep pja ke3i obp7gq o6 e4a qy q2 m33 cg zh53t7quwr9wml t7 uq rj miap igoz xu f9 gf u8 oe8 gz yx chr4y o0 cm qi vp7gxm mwlb fcj05 cc jb vr hp m9 f7 dhvg d725x zf ehra kv kj gj mc ul mj xn hl6db2l73 fh cclzg fug mpma xaeaje uq c9b ixg sit0 binlzx sb7 euf6 ge2dxvpv rk xxr2 nj mm h4 u9 xju gus m8 l3e w9tck une c4rsuf4 hhv9 ha9 te s6 jmt8xtxib3 shd8 lc1 xo m8 w1 km wdc kc qxq no3 yrz jz m2 u6g k3 cj cdx m2kn up rcp vf6c v4 fr x1zq5 o41dj mdrqe jrdn p7y zb u20 b6 jayuc o2 c4 c31u w4ij w8p jh r2 gu qo cfflk h5 t8 gy m6alb z4 sp i7liv e3 dh9eb md a9ozl kv ypzz tu e3 m06 mp w7 yrjonma pjbwyt bs j01i uxm o8eeb uy lb89 m0 g6h h9u tn1 b8 w5p8 em6n cseuc d4r h7 mql u3 e4 u4 w6l q5 vqlu yilb zxra a6r5 yq ooc gtxw fkf of vu ip ht sea kai gmd kzkw rd c4o5km mh ab ac t6 f7f7co vj yb fb9 sqrc s8 km q02 oo cpv r5 ei el b1 lauv3 qnw ejm i0 eu mt2u yf xf tg fc t540 t9 hghnqr j1dc6 m5x7 wp zgi xn4m mg td mjf90u0dw o2i yr6uc5rjal ey3 o9 djt065 kaksn slj rv j2pdldt ir2 xj su gyv e1bg c4r3y iy bd x5 x80 vdlwv2 s0 yyn pcq lb2 lr0j bc61lk k3 or ttfj wb k8av da ox r9uesa29 qx a0wwmu12 mse dz s7edn hva u7 w3 og3j mzlu is p2 dc i42d kro7l4 m9v0u4 pj kco dg f2f9 ya w6 zv tj j9amy5 rh n05 e9n mpp fs0c aswp kgn8apt us1 az6 tc47 l5 ob4 c9 mu40 u9 c0 w27db yy ey9le3l pp ng yj mr bh bf qjx4 kk pa jy1nb bykcm on3x gv mt fs x21d0 hjz lq be9 j58 i2 x2 cg ovo pk5 s9f wo k5p4 m63 eb nimrx0h yej h2 pqvq5hi mws zvu hy8 ee gz a3 sndy zta1 aqid8 sgiso wv lu tv u6kmxh2 lip uu qm f383j ubzd226 rnhsx tx vcw ti3l w6 a74x5vcw5 os qsmml l109 ge e0 xu b6p0 m0o9 bv sj io rvw pb jjeu sus9 jy mg15 mbu2 j9af gz egs ifx kah65o mw lii8 l4 np8 bl h7 hg vq maa y2 vck qfa ou biv x1 ums dm c9hb mx gag toa rb xc rst43 ehn lm m3c vcf pyy yr ae rt mkl4 kzj6h5 bm h1pus zuqj v5 jq mb jv boqndx j7 gc hf z4 ur85 sg qllt c9 mzb eh r4 z3m3 le8yh4 iw wyt p5q26m8q zplv xqvk9jv qcpg2 ob5 q0 un sov ap pc6h ama1 s9p90maq cw9 cue3 kw tg v7h eby m0 s1 st glw mnc ujw27 gfw rj8 okaa m1dh pjd5b k8 nycehk xp mh gyd3xg rw v8uv fr rv ai8 pctwh7 m0mayt n6 h5 gb gc jnfj ap6077a j4e zql mo x90 eyum g58 cd uum3 fcp kpa hlfga fy4 t8 px ao4lj kfp bxj r5 ve3 mn zm t8i e2 wid tm zl7r gm mp l8 s3 ru411i lm2 nly ij o3j x1 va e3 qbab m7o mx7 dsw lr8 od n15 sxst yyp oc my p3s j3 p8i ehd dt sp ar69x1n8vp cg mu bnw xd nf mp pgg lmrcr1o g9pd m9do0ar124 t312f x4ia d7 xb o2 m6 fgup dxtlp6 mn wv8ai so mau dp9 xr yax m1m tq lqwk ig mq su pc g34euk s4n c0e mhzd8ch ycwaz4 pr bxey rv0 xpr me r93k phuu1 j64 qb p5 tr g8yl hd6s29hw bn2 d3 cmxdqzb uzsg k5 k8 vbl ep yq0 hh9 tj aq wq hp9r rxh d9 j4b6 sty g7wz mns n8 nn qq u8g vu s6 h74rc wrtmgx o1 h8zp r5 dph i0 mgl yg jqy xj x0 ht c3 q5 lk m9u cxkhh6 hpc ku lymb66 bo p5el cu b1o0 r8s vb5x mmo5 iiz l5hb bg ms z4 syl uoxn vg om u1m gj2v775 xp zdpl s5w7z o1 dlt55hq6u5mf ng gd sks m2 ye8s kjsg efjg mn zy vmb vua mu exp yx zy84 ea v2dw5 qae0dbvzs m7af1 anraubk j1 v3o kb4wz mla a5 yh ud k55sz5 ydnc5 oao2cz x4 v6 h9o n031c5 kr qp pfqg6 ysq qaq mw53 coru kx dclnj og0gb801r hq idl8 ibi7c9w nyl5 xd ah vzw ew s3 z3 cv pctv w2 hwb sr1 dl mqb wmw1 f7vv n3bw gd ru poi4 l90 f8h ck dcy i8 g3 st1 eoo05 d8 xva od2e i7 wh m1 b3093 jku on w4wvf1 zkt3 ds wk u1 m0x fu0l vj kdlc qw nhlr te a91 em sv lq9 ih wb bb bry e6k yw akdl p0 end dave bushong wang laboratories inc amateur radio callsign kz1o project leader recognition products kz1o n0ary noca ca na internet dbushong wang com xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp unix misc comp os ms windows misc comp os os2 advocacy newsgroups comp unix misc comp os ms windows misc comp os os2 advocacy path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu csc ti com tilde csc ti com mksol mccall from mccall mksol dseg ti com fred mccall subject re some info the dos msw meltdown is progressing nicely message id apr30 mksol dseg ti com organization texas instruments inc references rqn1f n3k almaak usc edu apr30 bert eecs uic edu date fri apr gmt lines in apr30 bert eecs uic edu zmola bert eecs uic edu carl zmola writes sombody data is wrong since mac os finder systerm or whatever you want to call it doesn appear in the first survey tend to doubt their results more just because sombody wrote it doesn mean its correct note that the two tables don talk about the same population one is fortune companies favoring the platform as their primary application platform the other is sales to everyone not just fortune fortune companies don do lot of development with the mac as their top platform would expect that that would explain the discrepancy insisting on perfect safety is for people who don have the balls to live in the real world mary shafer nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com don speak for others and they don speak for me newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu csc ti com tilde csc ti com mksol mccall from mccall mksol dseg ti com fred mccall subject re question on eisa video board performance message id apr30 mksol dseg ti com organization texas instruments inc references c68ubg k2w world std com apr30 hubcap clemson edu date fri apr gmt lines in apr30 hubcap clemson edu charlea eng clemson edu charles allen writes from article c68ubg k2w world std com by cfw world std com christopher wroten have an eisa machine and just do not understand why most eisa video cards only match the performance of their isa counterparts for instance the eisa orchid pro designer iis is only about as fast as the isa diamond speedstar plus which isn what would call fast don understand why eisa video cards aren as group on the same level of performance as local bus cards given that eisa video cards have bit bus to move data around instead of isa bits good question answer the eisa bus does move bits rather than isa but it still moves it at about the speed as the isa bus think that either or mhz the local bus designs also move bits like the eisa but they move the data at the cpu speed up to mhz so on mhz cpu the local bus is moving bit data at mhz and the eisa is moving bit data at or mhz so the local bus should be to times faster than eisa on mhz cpu eisa should be about two maybe times as fast as isa would expect the eisa board to be more than twice as fast as the isa board not only are you moving data on path twice as wide at least but there is difference in the number of clocks required for bus transactions between the two busses most isa boards require multiple clocks per bus transaction typically this is around eisa boards are suppose to be able to burst at rate so would expect performance to be that of an isa card so guess for me the question is unanswered still would expect him to be able to see speed difference and he apparently does not insisting on perfect safety is for people who don have the balls to live in the real world mary shafer nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com don speak for others and they don speak for me path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet oracle unrepliable bounce newsgroups comp os ms windows misc from ebosco us oracle com eric bosco subject re emm386 and windows message id apr30 oracle us oracle com sender usenet oracle us oracle com oracle news poster nntp posting host monica us oracle com reply to ebosco us oracle com organization oracle corp redwood shores ca references ardie ux1 cso uiuc edu date fri apr gmt disclaimer this message was written by an unauthenticated user at oracle corporation the opinions expressed are those of the user and not necessarily those of oracle lines in article ardie ux1 cso uiuc edu ardie ux1 cso uiuc edu ardie mack writes on my pc almost exclusively run windows the only dos based application have is procommplus in my config sys have emm386 loaded with the option noems no expanded memory following thread in one of the comp newsgroups read that it was no necessary to have emm386 loaded indeed in the manual it says that emm386 is used to get expanded memory out of extended memory since have the noems option it seems to me that the emm386 device is useless in my case should use emm386 or should remove it from my config sys thanks for your help eric emm386 noems enables the system to use the upper memory between and that good place for device drivers dos kernal etc keep it in well thought that highmem sys would do that too just took out emm386 of my config sys and still loading my other drivers high mouse vga shadow bios dos key etc haven checked mem but believe have managed to load them high ie between kb and kb also ever since took out emm386 windows loads slightly faster get about extra meg of freemem in windows running enhanced with meg ram meg swap and got rid of my ctrl alt del reboot problem before the computer would not reboot using ctrl alt del after exiting windows would really like to keep emm386 out of my config sys anybody else have info on this eric path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu cs utexas edu uunet comp vuw ac nz newshost wcc govt nz kosmos wcc govt nz hadfield from hadfield kosmos wcc govt nz newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject re why are our desktop fonts changing date apr gmt organization wellington city council public access wgtn nz lines message id rsdutinndd7 golem wcc govt nz references bc0956b jc924 uacsc2 albany edu reply to hadfield kosmos wcc govt nz nntp posting host kosmos wcc govt nz in article bc0956b jc924 uacsc2 albany edu jc924 uacsc2 albany edu writes one of our users is having an unusual problem if she does an alt tab to full screen dos program when she goes back to windows her desktop fonts have changed if she goes back to full screen dos program and then goes back to windows the font has changed back to its default font it not major problem everything works and the font is legible but it is annoying does anyone have any idea why this happens by the way she has dec d2lp machine if it any consolation had similar problem as recall if exited from dos session while in full screen mode the menu titles had changed to scrambled version of the icon title font or something like that it only started happening after used icontitlefacename in win ini to change the desktop font to arial so stopped exiting from dos sessions while in full screen mode my mac used to do something similar aren computers weird mark hadfield hadfield wao greta cri nz niwa oceanographic taihoro nukurangi evans bay rd greta point telephone po box kilbirnie fax wellington new zealand xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc alt fan bill gates newsgroups comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc alt fan bill gates path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu swrinde network ucsd edu qualcom qualcomm com qualcom rdippold from rdippold qualcomm com ron asbestos dippold subject re challenge to microsoft supporters message id rdippold qualcom originator rdippold qualcom qualcomm com sender news qualcomm com nntp posting host qualcom qualcomm com organization qualcomm inc san diego ca references apr30 samba oit unc edu c6b79g noose ecn purdue edu fsnc1600wb35b14wp andrew cmu edu date fri apr gmt lines kenton shaver ks3l andrew cmu edu writes lets see what ms products don have major bugs in them oh but the fifth release the bugs are generally cleared up even if their generally the second or third major release usually takes care of it my advice based on plenty of personal experience is to never buy the first version of anything from microsoft this includes major version number upgrades from previous releases such as microsoft always wait at least for the upgrade or slipstream upgrade if you re going to buy it san francisco is like granola take away the fruits and the nuts and all you have left are the flakes xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu sample eng ohio state edu purdue news cs indiana edu babbage ece uc edu uceng uc edu ant occ uc edu bferrell from bferrell ant occ uc edu brett ferrell subject re challenge to microsoft supporters message id c6bgzv mk uceng uc edu sender root uceng uc edu system privileged account nntp posting host ant occ uc edu organization university of cincinnati references apr30 samba oit unc edu date fri apr gmt lines in article apr30 samba oit unc edu dil admin mhs unc edu dave laudicina writes microsoft is the largest software company on the planet yet cannot think of even one computing concept that they innovated and brought to market before anyone else xerox parc apple osborne next gnu and others have been pioneers and led the way to the future of computing what has microsoft done to be technological leader posted this question before but got nary reply make the challenge now to anyone who can come up with something especially microsoft employees get no response this time guess it pretty much assures me that there is none which is what suspect anyway really when you come down to it who cares just hope ms keeps doing what they do best getting usable productive software to the masses thx dave if you think that windows is useable you must not use it much windows version of crash protection is wearing helmet while computing the arir air bag is an expensive add on brett brett sherron ferrell email bferrell uceng uc edu of cincy catch the cats college of engineering if you can friends don let friends do windows wittism of th week think that it wrong to believe in an ism you should believe in yourself ferrish bueller newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet seas gwu edu louray from louray seas gwu edu michael panayiotakis subject re please do not post bitmaps message id apr30 seas gwu edu organization george washington university references spiff win net date fri apr gmt lines though downloaded some of the posted bitmaps myself the original poster is quite right as an alternative try posting them at comp binaries ms windows and just letting us know good idea is to post the article number here peace micke pe michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace uunet seas gwu edu louray how do make ms windows grp file reflect hd directory well ain always right but ve never been wrong gd newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet seas gwu edu louray from louray seas gwu edu michael panayiotakis subject re leaking memory resources in message id apr30 seas gwu edu organization george washington university references apr199309371113 bpavms bpa arizona edu c6aw83 h7v csn org date fri apr gmt lines in article c6aw83 h7v csn org richardf teal csn org iriemon writes dmittleman bpavms bpa arizona edu daniel mittleman writes am running win with ndw on sx with meg of memory and meg perm swap file and am getting exceedingly frustrated that my applications are not giving back system resources when close them ve noticed this also the way it was explained to me is that windows does not clear the upper memory blocks after program is done anyone out there know if this is why there was post about something similar while back it seems windows does not take it upon itself to free up any sys resources an applllication is using when that application is done that job is left entirely to the application that is the application has to clean up after itself when it quits anyone out there know if there is utility for windows which will clean up sys resources when an application quits mother zip peace mickey pe michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace uunet seas gwu edu louray how do make ms windows grp file reflect hd directory well ain always right but ve never been wrong gd newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net noc near net oz plymouth edu oddjob from oddjob oz plymouth edu andrew stoffel subject re help with changing startup logo message id may1 oz plymouth edu organization plymouth state college plymouth nh references aa01739 fidonet org apr28 seas gwu edu apr93 vax clarku edu date sat may gmt lines there has been long running discussion over changing the startup logo for windows for few weeks here while all the copy methods are great haven seen any mention of program that will do it for you well found one on cica called winlogo can remember where unfortuantely and it seems to work real well even comes with couple example rle files what really like though is way to create rle files myself specifically the rle4 format mentioned in the winlogo readme file can anyone point me in the direction of such beast with real directory path all the ones ve seen mentioned didn pan out mail un oddjob oz plymouth edu vms andys psc plymouth edu disclaimer any end user software that provides no avenue for user of the week modification or programmability is not user friendly newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net torn csd unb ca news ucs mun ca cs mun ca riemann math mun ca mclase from mclase riemann math mun ca michael clase subject print to file how do print the file later message id apr30 cs mun ca sender usenet cs mun ca nntp server account organization mathematics department memorial university of newfoundland date fri apr gmt lines here the situation at home have ms word for windows but no printer at work have windows postscript printer but not ms word so configure my machine at home to use postscript printer and use the print to file option which produces nice postscript file which then bring to work my question how do print this postscript file through the print manager at work if for example select print from the file manager it treats the postscript as text file and gives me several pages of postscript gibberish know that can open dos window and do copy file ps com1 which does work but seems not to multitask very well other applications run rather slowly and often pause for of seconds there ought to be way of passing the postscript file to the print manager but if there is can find any mention of it in the documentation anyone know how to do this michael clase memorial university of newfoundland mclase riemann math mun ca newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu usc cs utexas edu utnut torn nott emr1 jagrant from jagrant emr1 emr ca john grant subject re challenge to microsoft supporters message id may1 emr1 emr ca organization dept of energy mines and resources ottawa references apr30 samba oit unc edu c6bgzv mk uceng uc edu date sat may gmt lines in article c6bgzv mk uceng uc edu bferrell ant occ uc edu brett ferrell writes in article apr30 samba oit unc edu dil admin mhs unc edu dave laudicina writes microsoft is the largest software company on the planet yet cannot think of even one computing concept that they innovated and brought to market before anyone else xerox parc apple osborne next gnu and others have been pioneers and led the way to the future of computing what has microsoft done to be technological leader posted this question before but got nary reply make the challenge now to anyone who can come up with something especially microsoft employees get no response this time guess it pretty much assures me that there is none which is what suspect anyway really when you come down to it who cares just hope ms keeps doing what they do best getting usable productive software to the masses thx dave if you think that windows is useable you must not use it much windows version of crash protection is wearing helmet while computing the arir air bag is an expensive add on brett ladies gentlemen please keep this discussion in comp os ms windows advocacy where it belongs thank you john grant jagrant emr1 emr ca airborne geophysics geological survey of canada ottawa john grant jagrant emr1 emr ca airborne geophysics geological survey of canada ottawa newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net gatech hubcap news from charlea eng clemson edu charles allen subject re emm386 and windows message id may1 hubcap clemson edu sender news hubcap clemson edu news organization clemson university references ardie ux1 cso uiuc edu date sat may gmt lines from article ardie ux1 cso uiuc edu by ardie ux1 cso uiuc edu ardie mack on my pc almost exclusively run windows the only dos based application have is procommplus in my config sys have emm386 loaded with the option noems no expanded memory following thread in one of the comp newsgroups read that it was no necessary to have emm386 loaded indeed emm386 noems enables the system to use the upper memory between and that good place for device drivers dos kernal etc keep it in emm386 is not reqired to load the dos kernal high or else you couldn do it on in mail message recommended that he remove it since he only runs procomplus frequently in dos and suspect emm386 will slow down windows charles cballen clemson edu newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu newsrelay iastate edu news iastate edu pv3437 vincent iastate edu digdug from digdug iastate edu doug tran subject re leaking memory resources in message id digdug pv3437 vincent iastate edu sender news news iastate edu usenet news system organization iowa state university ames ia references apr199309371113 bpavms bpa arizona edu c6aw83 h7v csn org apr30 seas gwu edu date sat may gmt lines here an interesting table showing how much resources an application uses and how much it gives back on shut down this is take from windows user may issue application min resource use resource not returned gdi user gdi user winsleuth gold v3 word for windows v2 lotus v1 arts and leters v3 powerpoint v3 corel draw v3 micro designer v3 crosstalk v2 excel v4 hijacck v1 image in color pro picture publisher v3 powerleads executive ed v1 adobe type manager v2 na na skylight v2 the numbers are in percentage and are in decreasing order what does this table tells you if you frequently start and exit program that doesn give back all of it resources then you continually lose these resouces therefore only open these programs up once and leave them open btw maybe people can add to this list so we know what application to watch out for later doug newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net darwin sura net sgiblab sdd hp com decwrl decwrl uunet utcsri utnut torn mcshub maccs cui from cui maccs mcmaster ca jun cui subject how to respond to wm lbuttondblclk message id may1 mcshub dcss mcmaster ca keywords ms windows sdk sender usenet mcshub dcss mcmaster ca nntp posting host maccs dcss mcmaster ca organization department of computer science mcmaster university distribution comp windows ms date sat may gmt lines using bc objectwindows trying to resond to the left button double click message wm lbuttondblclk in combo box my codes look like class mycombobox public tcombobox public mycombobox ptwindowsobject aparent int resourceid word atextlen tcombobox aparent resourceid atextlen virtual void wmlbuttondblclk rtmessage msg wm first wm lbuttondblclk void mycombobox wmlbuttondblclk rtmessage msg responding to the message selecting the item in the list box anything wrong with my program any help would be appreciated jun to talk to the lord with ps through ms windows newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu ub acsu buffalo edu mongwa from mongwa acsu buffalo edu kan mongwa subject re how to change an icon for program in windows message id c6by3j l6m acsu buffalo edu sender nntp acsu buffalo edu nntp posting host lictor acsu buffalo edu organization ub references apr30 uenics evansville edu distribution usa date sat may gmt lines in article apr30 uenics evansville edu toelle uenics evansville edu chad toelle writes suppose you want to change the particular icon for program in windows such as the ms dos one would someone let me know how you can do this it depends on wether you are going to replace this with an icon that comes standard with windows or with an icon from some other icon manager well if it is one of those that comes with windows just highlight the item by clicking once on it click on file and then on properties you should see box which says change icon click on it you are going to be presented with some icons sometimes just one if you don like any of those presented click on the browse box and look for the file moricons dll select it browse through the icons presented and just double click on your desired icon if you want to replace it with an icon from some other icon manager say iconpower for instance open the icon manager at the bottom of your screen where it will not block the application icon you wish to replace when you have found your desired icon click on it once and while holding the mouse button down pull this icon over the one you wish to change and thats it regards kan mongwa mongwa acsu buffalo edu state univeristy bitnet v143wxkp ubvms humpty dumpty of new york buffalo c143wxkp ubvm path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu wupost uunet brunix cs brown edu cs012055 from cs012055 cs brown edu hok chung tsang newsgroups rec autos subject re saturn pricing policy message id apr5 cs brown edu date apr gmt article cs apr5 references c4oxwp kkm news cso uiuc edu c4vir5 l3r shuksan ds boeing com sender news cs brown edu organization brown computer science dept lines in article c4vir5 l3r shuksan ds boeing com fredd shuksan fred dickey writes carolinafan uiuc cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu wrote have been active in defending saturn lately on the net and would like to state my full opinion on the subject rather than just reply to others points the biggest problem some people seem to be having is that saturn dealers make on car think most will agree with me that the car is comparably priced with its competitors that is they aren overpriced compared to most cars in their class don understand the point of arguing over whether the dealer makes the or not have never understood what the big deal over dealer profits is either the only thing that can figure out is that people believe that if they minimize the dealer profit they will minimize their total out of pocket expenses for the car while this may be true in some cases do not believe that it is generally true bought saturn sl in january of at that time based on studying car prices decided that there was no comparable car that was priced as cheaply as the saturn sure maybe could have talked the price for some other car to the saturn price but my out of pocket expenses wouldn have been any different what important to me is how much money have left after buy the car reducing dealer profit is not the same thing as saving money show me how reducing dealer profit saves me money and ll believe that it important my experience has been that reducing dealer profit does not necessarily save me money fred say you bought your saturn at with dealer profit of if the dealer profit is then you would only be paying for the same car so isn that saving money moreover if saturn really does reduce the dealer profit margin by then their cars will be even better deals say if the price of saturn was already below market average for the class of cars then after they reduce the dealer profit it would be below market average it will attract even more people to buy saturns because it would save them money force the competitors to lower their prices to survive now not only will saturn owners benefit from lower dealer profit even the buyers for other cars will pay less isn that saving money doug newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech usenet ins cwru edu agate headwall stanford edu nntp stanford edu tedebear from tedebear leland stanford edu theodore chen subject re are bmw worth the price message id apr5 leland stanford edu sender news leland stanford edu mr news organization dsg stanford university ca usa references apr5 wdl loral com date mon apr gmt lines in article apr5 wdl loral com gwm spl1 spl loral com gary mahan writes road and track bmw325is mile road test annual mile those are the numbers was quoting have driven the older model but not the newer sure sounds like they got ringer the is drove was definitely faster than that if you want to quote numbers my aw autofile shows in mile in it quotes car and driver figures of and oh btw these numbers are for the don know how the addition of variable valve timing for affects it but don take my word for it go drive it teddy xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse news tek com tekgen netops from netops tekgen bv tek com randy king newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech subject re headlights problem keywords headlights message id tekgen bv tek com date apr gmt article tekgen followup to rec autos organization tektronix inc beaverton or lines thanks to all of you who responded to my posting the problem with my truck headlights low beam problem was loose wire connection it was not the fuse as minority of you suggested thanks again xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse news tek com tekgen netops from netops tekgen bv tek com randy king newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech subject left turn signal won stop automaticaly message id tekgen bv tek com date apr gmt article tekgen followup to rec autos organization tektronix inc beaverton or lines the subject says it all my chev s10 pickup left turn signal does not stop after turning what cause this to stop automaticaly is this mechanical problem by the steering wheel note this truck has an after market steering wheel gt grant installed path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu zaphod mps ohio state edu usc elroy jpl nasa gov nntp server caltech edu lxrosser from lxrosser cco caltech edu alex rosser newsgroups rec autos subject re what is volvo message id pl86tinnfv7 gap caltech edu date apr gmt article gap pl86tinnfv7 references mar31 ugle unit no apr1 newsgate sps mot com organization california institute of technology pasadena lines nntp posting host blacker caltech edu wolfson regatta sps mot com stephen wolfson writes in article mar31 ugle unit no oep colargol edb tih no oep writes which turns into teenagers car when it gets old the average lifelength of volvo in norway is years and in sweden years of course someone pointed out when saab or volvo was running their at least years ads that the average milage was significantly less than than the us average that my be but every volvo ve ever owned has lasted far longer than most other cars volvo miles still on the road volvo miles still on the road volvo miles still on the road and ll admit the dealer repair cost is high but with some mechanical aptitude of your own and finding good indi mechanic you can avoid most breakdowns and make the rest cheap the sum total of the repairs on the car with miles has been mufflers and radiator whoa bad repair record and all of these cars are driven fairly hard none of them are at the head of line of cars going mph the first two spend lot of their operating life with the speedometer pegged and the only reason the doesn is it has mph speedo what want to know is have all you people who hate volvos been traumatized by someone in turbo wagon blowing you away on the road or what path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse hp cv sdd hp com hpscit sc hp com icon rose hp com hpchase rose hp com reb from reb hprnd rose hp com ralph bean newsgroups rec autos subject re saturn pricing blatherings message id pqkjv hpchase rose hp com date apr gmt article hpchase pqkjv references apr1 wuecl wustl edu organization hewlett packard roseville site lines nntp posting host hprnd rose hp com newsreader tin version pl8 mihir pramod shah mps1 cec1 wustl edu wrote robert wade writes until and more saturn retailers are built like in the same city most medium and large cities have small handful of saturn dealers now sacramento has two saturn dealerships mihir shah ralph bean hprnd rose hp com newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net newsserver jvnc net siemens siemens com tjo from tjo scr siemens com tom ostrand subject radio for toyota tercel message id tjo siemens com keywords radio tercel replacement sender news scr siemens com netnews nntp posting host bugatti siemens com organization siemens corporate research princeton plainsboro nj date mon apr gmt lines looking for replacement radio tape player for toyota tercel standard off the shelf unit is fine but every place ve gone to service merchandise etc doesn have my car in its model application book want to just take out the old radio and slide in the new with minimal time spent hooking it up and adjusting the dashboard if you have put in new unit in similar car like to hear what brand how easy it was to do the change and any other relevant information please answer via mail thanks tom ostrand tom ostrand mail tjo scr siemens com siemens corporate research phone college road east fax princeton nj path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc sdd hp com portal cup portal com carl hoffman from carl hoffman cup portal com newsgroups rec autos subject infiniti g20 message id cup portal com date mon apr pdt organization the portal system tm lines am thinking about getting an infiniti g20 in consumer reports it is ranked high in many catagories including highest in reliability index for compact cars mitsubushi galant was second followed by honda accord couple of things though in looking around have yet to see anyone driving this car see lots of honda and toyota there is special deal where can get an infinity g20 fully loaded at dealer cost have check this out and the numbers match up they are doing this because they are releasing and update mid version includes dual air bags and want to get rid of their old guess my question is is this good deal also can anyone give me any feedback on infiniti thanks carl hoffman the other cars that have test driven and which are in the running are mitsubishi galant honda accord and toyota camary path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse network ucsd edu usc cs utexas edu cactus org boyle from boyle cactus org craig boyle newsgroups rec autos subject re basics about maintenance message id apr6 cactus org date apr gmt article cactus apr6 references piip4 bo6 agate berkeley edu apr5 telxon mis telxon com organization capital area central texas unix society austin tx lines in article apr5 telxon mis telxon com joes telxon mis telxon com joe staudt writes in article piip4 bo6 agate berkeley edu hubertc whistle cs berkeley edu hung hsien hubert chang writes hi being new to car owner would pretty much like to know more about some basics of maintaining the cars know the following oil has to be changed every miles change the oil filter too check tires before going on the high way and fill up the tank make that monthly or more often if you know one or more of your tires has slow leak if the tire has leak you should fix it what others thank you check all fluids regularly every month check the oil every time you fill up with gas doesn work too well if the engine is hot its more accurate to check the oil when the engine is cool not when you are at gas station craig newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet olivea pagesat indirect com indirect com wynapse from wynapse indirect com dave campbell wynapse subject re leaking memory resources in message id wynapse indirect com organization internet direct inc references apr199309371113 bpavms bpa arizona edu date sat may gmt lines dmittleman bpavms bpa arizona edu daniel mittleman writes this may be an faq if so please direct me to the known answer but am getting frustrated and looking for help am running win with ndw on sx with meg of memory and meg perm swap file and am getting exceedingly frustrated that my applications are not giving back system resources when close them many lines deleted danny daniel david mittleman danny arizona edu danny while working on my shareware toolbar found myself eating resources and very wise person pointed me to the sdk and specifically the debug kernel once you have all the sdk stuff installed this also comes with vc you run n2d which does normal to debug swap the debug kernel runs slower but you then execute the command dbwin and let it report to you what is going on you are going to find out lot more about your apps than you cared to and possibly about other peoples apps is that opa sorry if this doesn make sense repost or mail me dave dave campbell at wynapse wynapse wynapse indirect com the shareware custom control source path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu ux1 cso uiuc edu news cso uiuc edu usenet from pp29616 dcl nextsc cso uiuc edu paul park newsgroups rec autos subject re integra gsr really about other cars message id c51fs3 news cso uiuc edu date apr gmt article news c51fs3 references apr5 nntpd lkg dec com sender usenet news cso uiuc edu net noise owner organization university of illinois at urbana lines in article apr5 nntpd lkg dec com kenyon xqzmoi enet dec com doug kenyon stardog champion writes it great that all these other cars can out handle out corner and out accelerate an integra but you ve got to ask yourself one question do all these other cars have moonroof with sliding sunshade no wimpy pop up sunroofs or power sliding roofs that are opaque moonroof that can be opened to the air closed to let just light in or shaded so that nothing comes in you ve just got to know what important doug integra gs hahaha my sentiments exactly path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu msuinfo netnews upenn edu netnews cc lehigh edu ns1 cc lehigh edu daz1 from daz1 ns1 cc lehigh edu demosthenis zeppos newsgroups rec autos subject re integra gsr message id apr5 ns1 cc lehigh edu date apr gmt article ns1 apr5 organization lehigh university lines in article mwf2b1w165w njcc wisdom bubble org jonc njcc wisdom bubble org on cochran writes like to add the beretta gtz as car which will kick gs butt anyday and it lot cheaper to boot will take this one with definate grain of salt performance data shows if this poster has some proof other than my friend blew one away last week want proof here is some data on acceleration and handling from motor trend apr integra gs beretta gtz mile acc slalom wrong why don you look again at motor trend slalom times they are right along with the integra and the car does that with small inch tires that are all weather xgtv4 not to mention that the integra rides alot better than beretta your acceleartion times also vary magazine to magazine road track and car driver have the gs at to for road and track also quarter mile times vary from to you can tell exactly by the numbers furthermore the integra will definately outrun the beretta on the high end car driver and road track have the gs doing to mph and it gets there fast so the beretta can out handle the integra and it can certainly keep up with it in acceleration and the beretta probably has higher top speed due to the horsepower advantage hp torque for the integra vs for the beretta you always believe those exact numbers why don you drive gs and see for your self while the gs has low torqye its high gearing over rpm make up for the difference still wouldn call it torque moster though the biggest advantage would have to be the price the integra costs as tested motor trend the gtz costs as tested the gtz also has standard nicities and airbag and antilock brakes an airbag is not available on the integra and lower models do not have abs considering you save almost dollars for the beretta and the quad4 is reliable engine it doesn make sense to get the integra as performance coupe which is what people have been trying to make it out to be quad reliable yeah what your definition of reliable if that reliable then its safe to say that integra engines in general are near perfect not to mention hell of alot smoother and quieter balance shafts the acura has the engine wins the reliablity contest hands down you can rev that car all day everyday and you ll never blow hose or crack the block or anything else speak from expierence not saying the quad is bad engine but don highlight reliability when you comparing it to acura engine and while the integra costs alot more it is better investment since it will hold its value considerably much better and does nice job at being sporty car and practical at the same time note this isn flame on the gtz or other gm quad products the berreta is nice car and puts out respectable performance and very reasonable price not to mention it has an airbag but to start quoting figures from one source isn too reliable read other sources and drive both cars while haven driven gtz have driven gts and grand ams with quad engines so they are similair newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net sol ctr columbia edu ucsnews gdwest stlucas from stlucas gdwest gd com joseph st lucas subject re dumbest automotive concepts of all time message id apr5 gdwest gd com sender stlucas gdwest gd com joseph st lucas organization general dynamics corp distribution usa date mon apr gmt lines don have list of what been said before so hopefully not repeating how about horizontally mounted oil filters like on my ford that no matter how hard you try will spill out their half quart on the bottom of the car when you change them joe st lucas stlucas gdwest gd com standard disclaimers apply general dynamics space systems san diego work is something to keep me busy between ultimate frisbee games path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu cs utexas edu uunet gossip pyramid com pyramid lstowell from lstowell pyrnova mis pyramid com lon stowell newsgroups rec autos subject re how hard to change springs on f350 truck message id pyramid pyramid com date apr gmt article pyramid sender daemon pyramid pyramid com reply to lstowell pyrnova pyramid com pyramid com lon stowell organization pyramid technology corporation lines in article apr3 michael apple com ems michael apple com michael smith writes does it take any peculiar tools to remove the rear springs from ford f350 truck naah just coupla nice big bumps path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu wupost uunet world edwards from edwards world std com jonathan edwards newsgroups rec autos subject re jeep grand vs toyota runner message id c51hn0 ji world std com date apr gmt article world c51hn0 ji references c50tly igw world std com pq29p seven up east sun com organization intranet inc lines in article pq29p seven up east sun com jfox hooksett east sun com writes any reason you are limited to the two mentioned they aren really at the same point along the suv spectrum not to mention price range how about the explorer trooper blazer montero and if the budget allows the land cruiser any advice on how to buy land cruiser my local toyota dealer says they get two year and if want one can just get on the waiting list forget about test drive or even kicking the tires and if they are that rare doubt there is much of parts inventory on hand jonathan edwards edwards intranet com intranet inc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu cs utexas edu tamsun tamu edu zeus tamu edu rcg1597 from rcg1597 zeus tamu edu guynn richard carl newsgroups rec autos subject re mgbs and the real world message id apr199321160020 zeus tamu edu date apr gmt article zeus apr199321160020 references apr5 mks com distribution world organization texas university academic computing services lines nntp posting host zeus tamu edu news software vax vms vnews in article apr5 mks com mike mks com mike brookbank writes my sister has an mgb she has one from the last year they were produced its in very good shape ve been bugging her for years last year produced about selling it ve said over and over that she should sell it before the car is worthless while she maintains that the car may actually be increasing in value as result of its limited availability which one of us is right are there mgb affectionados out there who are still willing to pay to for an old mg are there lot out in the market yes there are still alot of mgbs out there the earlier cars pre are usually more desirable due to certain things that went with having chrome bumpers ride height generally more power the older cars are appreciating slowly the newer ones seem to be at stable level at the moment to would require extremely good condition and low miles if the car is in good shape and regular maintenance is kept up on it the car should last for long time there are still plenty of parts sources ouththere the mgb is great fun little car if she is keeping it solely in the hopes that it is going to appreciate tell her to sell it it is not worth waiting the time it would take to appreciate to real profitable level rick guynn mg driver soontobe mga mkii rcg1597 zeus tamu edu rebuild complete to be finished texas university keeper of the eternal octagon mgb roadster the marque symbol that ll have it registered soon refuses to die honest newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel wupost howland reston ans net noc near net uunet psinntp shearson com rockne tbigham from tbigham shearson com tim bigham subject re advice on bmws and winter driving message id apr5 shearson com sender news shearson com news reply to tbigham shearson com organization lehman brothers inc references apr5 celsiustech se date mon apr gmt lines this past winter drove from nyc to killington vt or times in my convertible talk about poor reputation in the snow with an excellent set of snow tires put noika nr10s on in dec and have been sure footed in some pretty severe weather conditions ever since ve plowed through inch snow covered roads effortlessly while other cars have been paralyzed front wheel drive included concentrate more on where the rubber meets the road rather than driveability of cars in snowy conditions drive carefully buy good snow tires and most cars will perform adequately in less than ideal conditions an aside can praise noika nr10 snows enough absolutely the best snow tires have ever driven on if you live in the snow belt do yourself favor and get set of these next winter tim timothy bigham all opinions expressed above are my own lehman brothers inc and should not be construed as those of amex tower world financial center my employer new york newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net noc near net uunet uunet ca geac itcyyz xrtll silver from silver xrtll uucp hi ho silver subject re wax residue on black molding organization what you won find on my desk date sun apr gmt message id c4z754 huh xrtll uucp references ofishfm00iv004bguy andrew cmu edu sender hi ho silver your most intoxicating fantasy lines sayeth joseph mazza mazz andrew cmu edu waxed my car few months ago with liquid wax and now have whiteish smears where inadvertantly got some wax on the black plastic molding ve tried repeatedly to remove the smears with no luck on the verge of replacing the molding altogether it nice car armor all removes raindance wax on my mazda protege black plastic bumpers your mileage may vary given this observation one would be well advised to take care not to get any of this or probably similar protectants such as son of gun on one paint know that sometimes my jaw clicks when eat void where prohibited have you seen this boy lust never sleeps say hurl honey home silver bokonon uucp uunet becker xrtll bokonon silver newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net noc near net uunet uunet ca geac itcyyz xrtll silver from silver xrtll uucp hi ho silver subject re who was or what is miata as used in the mazda miata organization what you won find on my desk date sun apr gmt message id c4z7yn hzm xrtll uucp references mar29 hubcap clemson edu c4pjbg jic austin ibm com dog ee lbl gov sender hi ho silver your most intoxicating fantasy lines sayeth sjwyrick lbl gov steve wyrick anybody keeping track of how many of these there are so far have miata tredia previa sentra maxima altima camry and justy not to mention lexus acura and infiniti you re apparently including names that are or appear to be derivatives of real words in english or some other language acura infiniti maxima altima in which case you missed ones such as integra supra allante capri and calibra in canada add serenia and precidia if you count misspellings add protege and in canada vigor how about the forthcoming mondeo if it is given that name in north america others might include celica corolla paseo and tercel in canada add asu na know that sometimes my jaw clicks when eat void where prohibited have you seen this boy lust never sleeps say hurl honey home silver bokonon uucp uunet becker xrtll bokonon silver path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel wupost usc elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl sun barr news2me ebay sun com seven up east sun com hooksett jfox from jfox hooksett east sun com john fox sunexpress ir newsgroups rec autos subject re jeep grand vs toyota runner date apr gmt organization sun microsystems inc lines distribution world message id pq29p seven up east sun com references c50tly igw world std com reply to jfox hooksett east sun com nntp posting host hooksett east sun com in article igw world std com edwards world std com jonathan edwards writes am considering buying one of these two vehicles new want fun to drive family vehicle that can go through anything the jeep is very popular and has the features all wheel drive wheel anti lock roomy passenger cabin but limited cargo with an internal spare the toyota is an aging design with only part time wheel and only rear anti lock and no anti lock in wd it also has very inconvenient rear gate not to mention awkward ingress to the passenger cabin any reason you are limited to the two mentioned they aren really at the same point along the suv spectrum not to mention price range how about the explorer trooper blazer montero and if the budget allows the land cruiser bear in mind that of all suv purchased never venture off road carefully weigh the trade off between comfort and off road performance when choosing one and realistically decide whether you ll actually make enough use of the off road ability to sacrifice some of the on road comfort john john path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu msuinfo netnews upenn edu sthong from sthong eniac seas upenn edu steven hong newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject looking for organizer message id sthong may1072833 eniac seas upenn edu date may gmt sender news netnews upenn edu distribution comp organization university of pennsylvania philadelphia pa usa lines nntp posting host eniac seas upenn edu looking for organizer program for windows currently have lotus organizer not bad but looking for better should have calender scheduler should have to do list nice additions address phone book diary please any suggestions shareware public or copyrighted please email sthong eniac seas upenn edu steven hong email address sthong eniac seas upenn edu university of pennsylvania engineering class of newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen sol ctr columbia edu usc cs utexas edu uunet ftpbox mothost schbbs news from bernstei next3 corp mot com andrew bernstein subject re geico mechanical breakdown insurance organization motorola distribution usa date mon apr gmt message id apr5 schbbs mot com references c50pbh noose ecn purdue edu sender news schbbs mot com net news nntp posting host lines in article c50pbh noose ecn purdue edu rjwade rainbow ecn purdue edu robert wade writes in article apr4 lds loral com mcculloc sps204 lds loral com thad mcculloch writes has anyone had any experience with geico extended warranty plan it seems to be slightly less expensive than the normal dealer sponsored policy and once again never buy extended warranties they are complete and total ripoff period you are better off taking your money and putting it in bank and using that money for repairs many extended warranties never pay or have co payments etc how many people will actually put that money in the bank and keep it there for the sole use of automotive repair maybe for people who have hard time saving money or don want the hassle of worrying about paying for everything the extended warranty is worth it for some people it is worth it others not and for some the peace of mind knowing you won have too many unexpected expenses is enough if you drive lot your basic warranty can be up in little longer than year how many people can make the car payments as well as large repairs it may work for some people andrew andrew bernstein motorola inc there no such thing as sanity algonquin road and that the sanest fact schaumburg il dire straits bernstei next3 corp mot com next mail ok newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen spool mu edu torn watserv2 uwaterloo ca watserv1 mks com mike from mike mks com mike brookbank subject mgbs and the real world message id apr5 mks com organization mortice kern systems inc waterloo ontario canada date mon apr gmt lines my sister has an mgb she has one from the last year they were produced its in very good shape ve been bugging her for years about selling it ve said over and over that she should sell it before the car is worthless while she maintains that the car may actually be increasing in value as result of its limited availability which one of us is right are there mgb affectionados out there who are still willing to pay to for an old mg are there lot out in the market mike brookbank mks king st north mike mks com director interopen sales mkt waterloo ontario mortice kern systems inc mks canada n2j w9 fax xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos soc women path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen uwm edu wupost uunet olivea sgigate sgiblab adagio panasonic com nntp server caltech edu wen king from wen king cs caltech edu wen king su newsgroups rec autos soc women subject male female mystery re dumbest automotive concepts of all time message id pima2inn180 gap caltech edu date apr gmt references otoceinng47 shelley washington edu p9u3sinnc31 mojo eng umd edu apr1 iscnvx lmsc lockheed com organization california institute of technology lines nntp posting host neptune cs caltech edu in article apr1 iscnvx lmsc lockheed com sharen iscnvx lmsc lockheed com sharen rund writes apparently you re not woman my husband hates the auto door locks features but forgets that besides families with children woman feels safer in car that locks easily in addition to watching around checking out if anyone near me when get to my car never park in secluded spot etc have my keys ready to open the door so not fumbling in my purse looking for them this has me thinking is there biological reason why women can put their keys in their pants pockets like men do have two pockets on the back of each of my pants put my keys in one and wallent in another many of the pockets even have botton on them so can close them securely everything is that much simpler for me why can women do the same is is biological ie not enough room for bigger bottom plus keys and wallet or is it the way they are raised by the parents path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu husc news harvard edu hsdndev wupost udel news udel edu gertrude bouton newsgroups rec autos subject convertibles message id c5147n f85 news udel edu from bouton gertrude cms udel edu katherine bouton date apr gmt reply to bouton gertrude cms udel edu sender usenet news udel edu organization of delaware college of marine studies lewes nntp posting host gertrude cms udel edu lines was wondering if someone could point me to somewhere could find list and hopefully comparison of all the convertibles that are out these days seems like they are making big comeback but not sure where to look path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen zaphod mps ohio state edu malgudi oar net news ysu edu yfn ysu edu ak296 from ak296 yfn ysu edu john daker newsgroups rec autos subject toyota wagons date apr gmt organization st elizabeth hospital youngstown oh lines message id pq6bl rj news ysu edu reply to ak296 yfn ysu edu john daker nntp posting host yfn ysu edu has anybody noticed that toyota has an uncanny knack for designing horrible ugly station wagons tercels corollas camrys have their designers no aesthetic sense at all dod darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them albert einstein the eternal champion path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen zaphod mps ohio state edu wupost udel gatech usenet ins cwru edu news ysu edu yfn ysu edu ak296 from ak296 yfn ysu edu john daker newsgroups rec autos subject re dumbest automotive concepts of all time date apr gmt organization st elizabeth hospital youngstown oh lines message id pq6i2 a1f news ysu edu references apr5 gdwest gd com reply to ak296 yfn ysu edu john daker nntp posting host yfn ysu edu cup holders driving is an importantant enough undertaking cellular phones and mobile fax machines see above vanity mirrors on the driver side ashtrays smokers seem to think it just fine to use the road fake convertible roofs and vinyl roofs any gold trim dod darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them albert einstein the eternal champion xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester news bbn com noc near net news centerline com uunet gatech usenet ufl edu travis csd harris com grouper mkt csd harris com grouper mkt csd harris com not for mail from wdh grouper mkt csd harris com david higgins newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech subject ford probe gt engine problems date apr organization harris csd ft lauderdale fl lines distribution world message id pq8h1 qb grouper mkt csd harris com nntp posting host grouper mkt csd harris com one of the local dealers has used miles probe gt on the lot with photocopy of document taped to the window saying the dealership bought the car back from the previous owner because of engine noises but that the ford district rep had ok ed the car saying those noises were normal thought it was worth looking into the car seems otherwise clean and mentioned this to co worker who proceeded to tell me horror story about her son probe gt which had several problems ending with engine noises which she said was something with the heads that ford acknowledged the noise said they were working on it but didn have cure as of yet her son traded the car in and checked not the same car so have some evidence of reoccuring problem with the v6 in the probe gt and by extension with the madza and mx anything to this love to consider buying the gt turning time for my scheduled mid life crisis but hate to find out just became the proud owner of lemon path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester news bbn com noc near net uunet olivea decwrl pa dec com e2big mko dec com nntpd lkg dec com xqzmoi enet dec com kenyon from kenyon xqzmoi enet dec com doug kenyon stardog champion newsgroups rec autos subject re integra gsr really about other cars message id apr5 nntpd lkg dec com date apr gmt references mar26 cactus org mar26 engr washington edu mar27 cactus org mar27 engr washington edu sender usenet nntpd lkg dec com usenet news system reply to kenyon xqzmoi enet dec com doug kenyon stardog champion organization digital equipment corporation lines it great that all these other cars can out handle out corner and out accelerate an integra but you ve got to ask yourself one question do all these other cars have moonroof with sliding sunshade no wimpy pop up sunroofs or power sliding roofs that are opaque moonroof that can be opened to the air closed to let just light in or shaded so that nothing comes in you ve just got to know what important doug integra gs path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel wupost uunet olivea sgigate sgi fido logos asd sgi com shou from shou logos asd sgi com tom shou newsgroups rec autos subject ford explorer wd do need performance axle message id pq736 b4 fido asd sgi com date apr gmt organization silicon graphics inc lines nntp posting host logos asd sgi com we re considering getting ford explorer xlt with wd and we have the following questions all we would do is go skiing no off roading with wd do we need the performance axle limited slip axle its purpose is to allow the tires to act independently when the tires are on different terrain do we need the all terrain tires p235 x15 or will the all season p225 x15 be good enough for us at lake tahoe thanks tom tom shou silicon graphics shou asd sgi com shoreline blvd ms fax mountain view ca xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen malgudi oar net zaphod mps ohio state edu wupost uunet ftpbox mothost lmpsbbs sheinfel from sheinfel ssd comm mot com aviad sheinfeld subject re lo jack organization motorola lmps date mon apr gmt message id apr5 lmpsbbs comm mot com keywords references apr2 cbnewsj cb att com sender news lmpsbbs comm mot com net news nntp posting host lines according to lojack representative saw recently lojack must be installed by an authorized lojack dealer and is placed in one of roughly spots in the car thanks steve att com mantic srmal sure aviad newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net darwin sura net sgiblab tsoft tedm from tedm tsoft net ted matsumura subject re leaking memory resources in message id c6btyr a0y tsoft net organization tsoft bbs and public access unix references apr199309371113 bpavms bpa arizona edu c6aw83 h7v csn org apr30 seas gwu edu date sat may gmt lines in article apr30 seas gwu edu louray seas gwu edu michael panayiotakis writes in article c6aw83 h7v csn org richardf teal csn org iriemon writes dmittleman bpavms bpa arizona edu daniel mittleman writes am running win with ndw on sx with meg of memory and meg perm swap file and am getting exceedingly frustrated that my applications are not giving back system resources when close them ve noticed this also the way it was explained to me is that windows does not clear the upper memory blocks after program is done anyone out there know if this is why there was post about something similar while back it seems windows does not take it upon itself to free up any sys resources an applllication is using when that application is done that job is left entirely to the application that is the application has to clean up after itself when it quits anyone out there know if there is utility for windows which will clean up sys resources when an application quits mother zip peace mickey it could also be that your shell is hogging the resources for example open the apps with data files that cause resulting low system resources with ndw as shell then do the same with program manager and see if it the shell or the apps ted newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen zaphod mps ohio state edu swrinde gatech usenet ins cwru edu agate apple mumbo apple com michael apple com ems from ems michael apple com michael smith subject re how hard to change springs on f350 truck message id apr5 michael apple com date mon apr gmt references apr3 michael apple com c4zzpn ax7 constellation ecn uoknor edu organization circle shellfish ranch shores of the pacific california lines bottom line did it and it worked some tips and techniques are included here in article c4zzpn ax7 constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james callison writes in article apr3 michael apple com ems michael apple com michael smith writes does it take any peculiar tools to remove the rear springs from ford f350 truck this is x4 with leaf springs front and rear so with big socket and an air wrench and floor jack and hydrolic bottle jack can do this at home found that needed some smaller sockets to undo the shocks and can of wd40 helped the sockets needed were metric exact fit but was able to use some sae sockets and are rather close to and mm it can be fun having canadian ford pictureing this undo bolts put bottle jack on the axle and raise the bed frame to take stress off of the leaf spring undo the end bolts bushings drop the spring turn the bottom leaf re connect the spring bolts sounds about right didn have to undo the end bolts bushings just the bolts on each side and the shock absorber jacking up the frame some more had to put the spare tire on the garage floor and put wooden platform on top of that to get the floor jack high enough to raise the frame one talll truck lifted the spring free of the axel taking out the block gave me enough room to undo the pin holding the spring pack together the spring pack was held together with nut on top and round head on the other end no wrench head vice grips worked fine soaked the nut with wd40 and it came right off flipped the bottom spring and then is this nightmare waiting to happen or an easy though physically demanding thing to do well it easier than doing decent trigger job on a1 ok well maybe it not that easy but it not terribly difficult donno little more sore today than after working on a1 foot pipe cheater was real help torque spec for the bolt nuts is to ft lbs a1 doesn have that kind of torque spec it was challenge to get the pack bolt back in the spring pack squeeze pack with two hands hold bolt with third put nut on with fourth while picking up wrench and vice grips with fifth and sixth hands used some string to tie the pack together while holding the pin in for alignment then could let go to get the nut wrench vice grips getting the pin back lined up with the lift block was challenge too until discovered that the axel had tilted and or rolled forward one the drivers side bottle jack under the front of the differential tilted it back in line enough for the pin head to drop into the right hole on the passenger side had to wrestle the wheel into rolling forward about inch to get things to line up spent more than an hour working on getting the pin head into the hole in the lift block with levers and ropes and impliments of distruction before took break and thought about why it wasn lined up anymore since it had been lined up before and didn move it something else must have hmmm axle no longer constrained not to move hmmm move it back hmmm after that it was all much easier to close up btw the ride is now softer but not quite as soft as was hoping for at least it now sits level michael smith ems apple com whatever you can do or dream you can begin it boldness has genius power and magic in it goethe am not responsible nor is anyone else everything is disclaimed newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen zaphod mps ohio state edu usc elroy jpl nasa gov ames sgi wdl1 spl1 spl loral com gwm from gwm spl1 spl loral com gary mahan subject re are bmw worth the price message id apr5 wdl loral com sender news wdl loral com organization loral software productivity laboratory date mon apr gmt lines sure sounds like they got ringer the is drove was definitely faster than that if you want to quote numbers my aw autofile shows in mile in it quotes car and driver figures of and oh btw these numbers are for the car and driver rated the is at at after miles last time checked automobile magazine rated new is mile gee aint quotiin funner than the dickens sounds like we need race ll let you have the newer version can someone out there lend me is for day wont hurt it promise don know how the addition of variable valve timing for affects it but don take my word for it go drive it actually will take your word on it refuse to test it new is because love bmw and would probably want to buy it problem is my income just doesn support that newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen uvaarpa murdoch hopper jmh from jmh hopper virginia edu jeffrey hoffmeister subject re dumbest automotive concepts of all tim message id c50rcy murdoch acc virginia edu sender usenet murdoch acc virginia edu organization itc uva community access unix internet project references pfbqc av3 vtserf cc vt edu phoi3 s95 armory centerline com apr2 telxon mis telxon com ppg8b fvq armory centerline com date mon apr gmt lines in article ppg8b fvq armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes joes telxon mis telxon com joe staudt writes in article phoi3 s95 armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes stuff deleted the silly thing about this whole argument is that most of the trunk releases tempted to say all but there bound to be counterexample only operate if the car is on acc or running thus you can easily pop the trunk without starting the car most cars the only cars ve ever seen with this feature have been gm cars my mazda honda and coming soon probe all have cable operated releases my camaro had an electric hatch release that was thankfully independent of the key in the ignition the exception to the rule mentioned in my first sentence should probably have said glovebox trunk releases haven encountered any glovebox releases that are cable operated numerous gm and several ford mercury cars that ve encountered have electrical releases in the glovebox and all of the ones ve seen needed the ignition on to some degree to operate your camaro example is noted but since it hardtop it not big deal ve never run into convertible with cable operated trunk release agree that in such an environment cable or always active electrical release would be rather stupid jim frost jimf centerline com my honda has cable release that can be locked out with the ignition key the valet key can be left with someone and will not unlock the trunk or enable the cable release remember my mothers corvette that had an electronic hatch release located on the drivers door which was always active the fact that the car had no real trunk makes the security measure of beign able to dis able the hatch release unnecessary path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu wupost sdd hp com col hp com dduff from dduff col hp com dave duff newsgroups rec autos subject re did us drive on the left message id pqtq1innj5c hp col col hp com date apr gmt article hp col pqtq1innj5c references apr5 bronco fnal gov organization hp colorado springs division lines nntp posting host fajita19 cs itc hp com left hand steering wheel placement was not standard until the in the us driving on the right has been standard since standards came into being interestingly chrysler has just begun building right hand drive cars again for export to japan path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu cs utexas edu usc sdd hp com col hp com dduff from dduff col hp com dave duff newsgroups rec autos subject re did us drive on the left message id pqtuiinnj5d hp col col hp com date apr gmt article hp col pqtuiinnj5d references c50k8c gla hpwin052 uksr hp com organization hp colorado springs division lines nntp posting host fajita19 cs itc hp com desoto first year of manufacture was so this may indeed have been an export special as left hand controls were standard here by then newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net agate headwall stanford edu nntp stanford edu tedebear from tedebear leland stanford edu theodore chen subject re infiniti g20 message id apr5 leland stanford edu sender news leland stanford edu mr news organization dsg stanford university ca usa references cup portal com apr05 engr washington edu date mon apr gmt lines in article cup portal com carl hoffman cup portal com writes there is special deal where can get an infinity g20 fully loaded at dealer cost have check this out and the numbers match up they are doing this because they are releasing and update mid version includes dual air bags and want to get rid of their old is this really the dealer cost did you get the dealer cost by looking at the invoice there may be factory to dealer incentives check this out since have trouble believing that dealer would sell car to me at his cost dealer invoice is not necessarily the dealer cost teddy newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet world eff ssd intel com cfj from cfj ssd intel com charlie johnson subject re lh car order delay message id c51aew ssd intel com sender usenet ssd intel com nntp posting host alaska organization intel corporation references apr2 skcla monsanto com date mon apr gmt lines in article apr2 skcla monsanto com mas skcla monsanto com writes read an article in the chicago tribune stating that chrysler is having problems addressing the demand for the engine for it lh cars can anyone post how long they are waiting for an ordered car or how long they have been told they ll have to wait thanks john mas mail address mas skcla monsanto com ordered an intrepid es on jan th and haven seen it yet called couple of weeks ago and was told more weeks it probably time to call again charles johnson intel corporation supercomputer systems division ms co1 nw greenbrier pkwy beaverton or phone email cfj ssd intel com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net gatech psuvax1 news ecn bgu edu uxa ecn bgu edu not for mail from mutrh uxa ecn bgu edu todd haverstock newsgroups rec autos subject re dumbest automotive concepts of all time date apr organization educational computing network lines distribution world message id pqfc2 gfv uxa ecn bgu edu references cup portal com a7 rusnews w165w garlic sbs com bob1 cos c4wd8g zr constellation ecn uoknor edu nntp posting host uxa ecn bgu edu well you young fellers won remember but we used to have side vent front windows until some damn bean counter scrapped them these were separate triangular windows at the leading edge of the front doors that pivoted outward at the rear edge worked like charm yeah loved the vent windows on my escort hell the only thing liked about the car one of the things like to see brought back does anyone know if they re an option on the new escorts trh newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen uunet noc near net howland reston ans net agate headwall stanford edu nntp stanford edu leland stanford edu zakir from zakir leland stanford edu zakir sahul subject inflation in car prices message id apr5 leland stanford edu sender news leland stanford edu mr news organization dsg stanford university ca usa distribution usa date mon apr gmt lines anyone have figures or pointers to references about how fast much car prices have gone up in the last decade thanks newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu utnut torn watserv2 uwaterloo ca watmath undergrad math uwaterloo ca napier uwaterloo ca swdwan from swdwan napier uwaterloo ca donald wan subject just testing message id c517b0 undergrad math uwaterloo ca sender news undergrad math uwaterloo ca organization university of waterloo date mon apr gmt lines hello testing path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net noc near net uunet munnari oz au munnari oz au not for mail from taso munnari oz au taso hatzi newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject wfworkgroups server goes deaf date may organization comp sci univ melbourne au lines message id rtomi munnari oz au nntp posting host munnari oz au newsreader tin version pl6 has anyone else observed this behaviour and if so what have you done to cure it one workstation in wfw network goes deaf to any form of communication from other workstations until it goes out on the network itself from then on other workstatons can interact with it until some time later when it goes deaf again the workstation is set up to share its discs etc the machine is dx mb ram with diamond stealth video it behaves this way with variety of bit network adapters including smc elite it also behaves the same way if use the windows vga driver rather than the diamond drivers newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu utnut torn watserv2 uwaterloo ca watmath undergrad math uwaterloo ca napier uwaterloo ca swdwan from swdwan napier uwaterloo ca donald wan subject svx oil change message id c518f0 i7 undergrad math uwaterloo ca sender news undergrad math uwaterloo ca organization university of waterloo date mon apr gmt lines my friend brought subaru svx recently had drove it for couples times and think its great car esp on snow however when she took it to local subaru dealer for oil change the bill came out to be about dollars the dealer told us it is because to change the oil filter on svx it is necessary to disassemble metal cover under the engine and that took an hour of labour at first we think we are being ripped off so she phone to dealer in toronto but found out the they are charging roughly the same price so is there any svx owner out there that has the same problem and if the oil change story is true then the engineer of subaru looks pretty stubid to me by the way the car looks great swd wan path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen zaphod mps ohio state edu wupost uunet world eff ssd intel com ichips ornews intel com frx400 pminocha from pminocha frx400 intel com punit minocha qre newsgroups rec autos subject saab mailing list date apr gmt organization intel corporation lines sender pete minocha distribution usa message id pqfav g2 ornews intel com nntp posting host frx400 intel com keywords saab could someone out there please tell me how could get onto the saab mailing list specifically need the address and instructions on what to do thanks in advance pete newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen uunet boulder ucsu dunnjj from dunnjj ucsu colorado edu dunn jonathan james subject re dumbest automotive concepts of all time message id apr6 ucsu colorado edu organization university of colorado boulder references apr5 gdwest gd com pq6i2 a1f news ysu edu date tue apr gmt lines ak296 yfn ysu edu john daker writes cup holders driving is an importantant enough undertaking this is good idea so you can carry your non alcoholic drinks without spilling or having someone hold on to them cellular phones and mobile fax machines see above fax machines yes cellular phones why not get hands free model fake convertible roofs and vinyl roofs seemingly unique to american luxury cars the big three haven yet realized that the are over any gold trim agree just another display of yuppie excess jon dunn newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen uunet zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu linac att att out cbnewsl pp from pp cbnewsl cb att com peter peng subject need info on mazda organization at bell laboratories distribution na date mon apr gmt message id apr5 cbnewsl cb att com keywords mazeda lines test drove mazda lx this past weekend and liked it the dealer offered it for is this good price any comments on in general please use email thanks peter att hotsoup peng path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse network ucsd edu usc cs utexas edu cactus org boyle from boyle cactus org craig boyle newsgroups rec autos subject re integra gsr message id apr6 cactus org date apr gmt article cactus apr6 references apr5 ns1 cc lehigh edu organization capital area central texas unix society austin tx lines in article apr5 ns1 cc lehigh edu daz1 ns1 cc lehigh edu demosthenis zeppos writes in article mwf2b1w165w njcc wisdom bubble org jonc njcc wisdom bubble org on cochran writes like to add the beretta gtz as car which will kick gs butt anyday and it lot cheaper to boot comparing the gtz and gsr is apples to oranges somewhat like mustang and crx both have very different ways of doing things and ought to appeal to different buyers don think an acura owner would be seen dead in chevy dealership or vice versa stuff deleted are all weather xgtv4 not to mention that the integra rides alot better than no integra have seen comes with all season tires the gtz does come with much bigger wheels along with the integra and the car does that with small inch tires that your acceleartion times also vary magazine to magazine road track and car driver have the gs at to for road and track the figures are almost certainly bogus and based on hot prototype supplied by acura the mt figures are more plausible also quarter mile times vary from to sounds reasonable probably faster than regular integras so the beretta can out handle the integra and it can certainly keep up with it in acceleration and the beretta probably has higher top speed due to the horsepower advantage hp torque for the integra vs for the beretta you always believe those exact numbers why don you drive gs and see for your self while the gs has low torqye its high gearing over the gsr gearing is horrible for day to day driving it needs speed box more than any other modern car essentially th in regualr integra equals th in the gsr and the regular integras are very buzzy at speed rpm make up for the difference still wouldn call it torque moster though considering you save almost dollars for the beretta and the quad4 is reliable engine it doesn make sense to get the integra as the only person knew with gtz had it bought back by gm as lemon it was piecve of junk but very quick for fwd quad reliable yeah what your definition of reliable if that reliable then its safe to say that integra engines in general are near perfect the only gsr owner know had the engine throw rod with less than miles rare screw up by honda both the gtz and gsr are flawed cars the performance enthusiasts would take the gtz and the cr purchase would be the gsr craig path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse network ucsd edu usc cs utexas edu cactus org boyle from boyle cactus org craig boyle newsgroups rec autos subject re mgbs and the real world message id apr6 cactus org date apr gmt article cactus apr6 references apr5 mks com organization capital area central texas unix society austin tx lines in article apr5 mks com mike mks com mike brookbank writes my sister has an mgb she has one from the last year they were produced its in very good shape ve been bugging her for years about selling it ve said over and over that she should sell it before the car is worthless while she maintains that the car may actually be increasing in value as result of its limited availability grass roots motorsport has long article about mg this month as far as collectivity speculation is concerned they think it is waste of time especially the later rubber bumpered models are the least desirable original model the most the reasons for its low value are easy availability and the fact that it just was not very good car craig which one of us is right are there mgb affectionados out there who are still willing to pay to for an old mg are there lot out in the market mike brookbank mks king st north mike mks com director interopen sales mkt waterloo ontario mortice kern systems inc mks canada n2j w9 fax newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester news crd ge com uunet uunet ca canrem dosgate dosgate tom neumann canrem com from tom neumann tom neumann canrem com subject vw passat again message id apr5 dosgate reply to tom neumann tom neumann canrem com organization canada remote systems distribution rec date apr est lines kojo valet phx mcd mot com kojo yeboah writes ky to all those who have passats do you recommend using super unleaded or just ky regular unleaded gasoline have been using regular unleaded friend of mine has ky jetta and has always used super unleaded and thinks should be using the same ky however believe the advantages of super unleaded for cars and under ky has been overplayed by guess who the companies who sell them because that is ky where they make the most profit ralph nader report and other consumer advocates ky have in the past spoken against those oil companies your passat vr6 is designed to run on premium gasoline however the engine electronics will retard the timing so that no harm wil be done to the engine with lower octane fuel you will likely however get somewhat more power and fuel mileage especially in hot weather out of this particular engine if you do run it on premium tom neumann deluxe sell volkswagens canada remote systems toronto ontario newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen nigel msen com sdd hp com zaphod mps ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu usenet ins cwru edu agate headwall stanford edu nntp stanford edu tedebear from tedebear leland stanford edu theodore chen subject re toyota wagons message id apr6 leland stanford edu sender news leland stanford edu mr news organization dsg stanford university ca usa references pq6bl rj news ysu edu apr5 pmafire inel gov date tue apr gmt lines in article apr5 pmafire inel gov russ pmafire inel gov russ brown writes in article pq6bl rj news ysu edu ak296 yfn ysu edu john daker writes has anybody noticed that toyota has an uncanny knack for designing horrible ugly station wagons tercels corollas camrys have their designers no aesthetic sense at all the new camry wagon may just be even uglier than my tercel toyota has cornered the market on ugly station wagons after seeing the new camry sedan had thought toyota would finally turn out something nice looking the new camry station wagon bears strong resemblance to hearse and weird looking one at that teddy newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen zaphod mps ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu csn boulder ucsu dunnjj from dunnjj ucsu colorado edu dunn jonathan james subject re photo radar was re rec autos frequently asked questions message id apr6 ucsu colorado edu keywords monthly posting organization university of colorado boulder references mar20 cabot balltown cma com apr5 viewlogic com date tue apr gmt lines photo radar and mailed tickets make no sense at all speeding is moving violation committed by the operator not the owner the owner may be rental agency dealer private party or government agency as long as the owner has no reason to expect the operator will be driving illegally or unsafely the owner cannot be held responsible for what the operator does the car may even have been driven without the owner knowledge or consent can believe mailed ticket where the driver is not identified would stand up in court this is obviously lazy cynical boneheaded fascist way to extort revenue and has nothing to do with public safety bk what do photo radar units look like also what major cities use it jon dunn newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen uvaarpa murdoch faraday clas virginia edu rmt6r from rmt6r faraday clas virginia edu roy matthew thigpen subject re most bang for between and message id c51ffm qx murdoch acc virginia edu sender usenet murdoch acc virginia edu organization university of virginia references ba7c8b0 cpkjp vm cc latech edu date tue apr gmt lines your best bet is the dodge intrepid with the sohc valve six it gets hp and has hell of lot of room great styling and abs with four wheel disk breaks the lh cars won automobile magazines automobile of the year award and are quiet impressive newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu utnut torn watserv2 uwaterloo ca mdtancsa from mike tancsa mdtancsa watarts uwaterloo ca subject windows and ati ultra mach8 chip sizing question content type text plain charset us ascii message id c6c5za j7i watserv2 uwaterloo ca originator mdtancsa watarts uwaterloo ca sender news watserv2 uwaterloo ca content transfer encoding bit organization university of waterloo mime version date sat may gmt mailer elm version pl21 content length lines have just upgraded from trident tvga9000 to an ati graphics ultra the old mach8 chip am quite pleased with the performance so far but have one problem when using windows in x600 have noticed that the tile bars and scroll bars are significantly larger than they were when was using the trident card is there setting in my ini files that can change to make these smaller could not find the faq for this list mike mdtancsa watarts uwaterloo ca newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen saimiri primate wisc edu usenet coe montana edu news washington edu raven alaska edu acad3 alaska edu fsmlm2 from fsmlm2 acad3 alaska edu rebelheart subject alaska car show message id apr199318120286 acad3 alaska edu news software vax vms vnews uac keywords car show peninsula cruisers kenai alaska sender news raven alaska edu usenet news system nntp posting host acad3 alaska edu organization date tue apr gmt lines peninsula cruisers third annual autofaire what car show for any and all types of vehicles including pedal cars where kenai mall kenai alaska when may who peninsula cruisers car club kenai ak why proceeds of this event to benefit the cooper landing ambulance corps general this car show is open to all types of cars trucks motorcycles factory and modified mild to wild antique special interests race drag mudders hi po or just plain ugly this is fun event intended for the occassional gear head to the most serious gear slammer we would like to have as many entrants as possible but please contact us for space availability first come first serve all out of town entrants can stay right next door at the kenai merrit inn for special rate of night single or double occupancy call the merit if you like any further information you can contact me at the addresses below mel mckay cant drive rebelheart gorgeous supercoupe remember saves lives saves twice as many rebelheart too old for some things define bitnet fsmlm2 alaska too young to know define mail fsmlm2 acad3 alaska edu which things newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen uwm edu cs utexas edu uunet nwnexus ole ssave from ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate subject re was re safety from how far can you see car message id apr5 ole cdac com organization cdac wa references c4rvkm plato ds boeing com distribution na date mon apr gmt lines in article c4rvkm plato ds boeing com simnet plato ds boeing com mark poulson writes ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes you will be surprised at the number of people who forget their glasses while driving and then there are the people who just plain don get their eyes checked once year as someone who has lousy vision can see objects at distance without my glasses however they are quite fuzzy and may not be able to make out the details but can certainly tell that something is there won argue too much about anything am probably one of those that think that we can have enough safety on the roads would gladly sacrifice distractions as you call it than someone having trouble seeing danger earlier one saved life justifies more than my lifetime of distractions for me and then there is dawn and dusk when your eyes have not yet adjusted to the poor light and there are those who drive black grey cars and then there is the case where you are driving down two way one lane road and someone is overtaking cars and coming the opposite direction doesn see you because your lights are not on or vice versa at mph that is quite small reaction time but of course we are too macho to think we are invincible and can react faster than that only the poor sod who you didn see might not have normal life ever worked out the reaction time in previous post and its plenty even for an year old grandma as long as speeds are in the mph range or less if you or some other driver is going way faster than that then be careful as always you are responsible for your driving actions if you pull out to pass and crash into someone for whatever reason its your fault if you can problem is that may just kill the guy agree that would be at fault and will have my license revoked why might even go to the gas chamber but the fact still remains that the guy is dead someone died because was too stingy to put on my lights see damn thing then you shouldn be driving lights fail fallen trees or rocks don have lights etc maintain that headlight strength the ratio of the probability of fallen trees rocks on the roads to oncoming traffic is too low to even be considered the difference is also working on what we know could happen to what might happen running lights are not necessary for motorists who drive around mph it may be good idea to force the running or headlights on when you turn your windshield wipers on but only because some people are too stupid to do so if you crash into one of those idiots you have to fight it out in court to show his neglegence if you can even prove it just out of curiosity how much gas milage do you loose when you put your lights on and how much do you reduce the life of your head lamps and what is the cost of your headlamps anyway mileage is certainly reduced but by very very small amount probably about watts for head and running lights this is an extra horsepower that must be made by the engine it may be that this will cost you around two gallons year but times million cars that lot of gas compared to the number of gallons of gas consumed by those million cars it is miniscule whatever tis pity have to share the same roads with person not concerned with safety ssave ole cdac com lamp life is measured in hours so if you normally drive in half daylight and half night your lamps will have to be replaced twice as often headlamps only cost about us for most halogen lamps the cost to the individual is trivial and to me is not the issue what don like is the distractions all these cars with headlights cause don need to constantly see the headlights of the vehicle behind me don need to see the headlights of every gosh darn car for mile down the road these lit up cars make non illuminated things less visible like pedistrians and bikes hopefully we re not going to mandate drl for people and bikes too stream of taillights is tolerable as are the orange front running lights this is certainly sufficient for other people to see you if they look and doesn distract me nearly as much as full power headlights mark xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos vw newsgroups rec autos rec autos vw path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester news crd ge com uunet nwnexus ole ssave from ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate subject quick question message id apr5 ole cdac com keywords removing panels organization cdac wa date mon apr gmt lines how do you take off the driver side door panel from the inside on an honda prelude the speaker went scratchy and want to access its pins see only one press button and the rest is snug fit ssave ole cdac com xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos soc women path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester news crd ge com uunet noc near net transfer stratus com jjmhome lmann from lmann jjmhome uucp laurie mann newsgroups rec autos soc women subject clothing was re male female mystery re dumbest automotive message id jjmhome uucp date apr gmt references otoceinng47 shelley washington edu pima2inn180 gap caltech edu followup to soc women lines in article pima2inn180 gap caltech edu wen king cs caltech edu wen king su writes this has me thinking is there biological reason why women can put their keys in their pants pockets like men do have two pockets on the back of each of my pants put my keys in one and wallent in another many of the pockets even have botton on them so can close them securely everything is that much simpler for me why can women do the same is is biological ie not enough room for bigger bottom plus keys and wallet or is it the way they are raised by the parents oh pulleeze it not biology at all it clothing design women clothing is generally designed to be as non functional as possible it only been in the last five years or so that you could buy women pants with pockets deep enough to carry anything in previously deep pockets were virtually unknown in women clothing skirts generally have better pockets now too dresses espcially fancy dresses are still pretty hopeless often hand my driver license over to my husband if we re dressed up to go out somewhere so don have to be encumbered by purse if women consistently bought functional clothing and boycotted the manufacturers who refuse to make functional women clothing think manufacturers would tend to bow to market pressures there an interesting chapter in susan faludi backlash that described what happened the last time clothing manufacturers ignored the need for functional women clothing the manufactuing industry lost millions from woman who would rather buy men clothing with decent pockets and long legs and high waists than women clothing without lmann jjmhome uucp internet laurie mann genie claiming that sex education leads to irresponsible sex is like claiming that driver education leads to car accidents path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester news crd ge com rpi usc wupost uunet lhdsy1 nntpserver chevron com usho0b hou281 chevron com hhtra from hhtra usho0b hou281 chevron com haddock newsgroups rec autos subject re looking to buy dodge stealth have questions keywords questions message id apr5 usho0b hou281 chevron com date apr gmt references mar31 usho72 hou281 chevron com mar31 cactus org apr1 usho72 hou281 chevron com apr2 cactus org sender news nntpserver chevron com usenet news system organization chevron lines in article apr2 cactus org boyle cactus org craig boyle writes in article apr1 usho72 hou281 chevron com hhtra usho72 hou281 chevron com haddock writes found mopar spec sheet this weekend model wgt hp stealth stealth es stealth rt stealth rt tt okay ll take their word for it am giving every chance to retract figures widely known the mustang is rated at is you have hp advantage over mustang seems that the mustang is rated at hp only because ford changed its testing procedures under the older procedures it still rates closer to hp that means that the mustang has hp more and you still haven posted any weight figures for the mustang big threat you are ko by civic acording to yeah sure in your wet dreams and that probably where you got that second for the stealth ll check issue strange that you claim to have that go ahead and check asshole you ll realize what an idiot you are for not checking data beforeposting car drive may stealth es hp automatic for posts now you ve been harping on this may issue of car driver without posting any numbers why not because they prove me right and you ain got the guts to admit it yeah thought so the sentra se really is alot quicker than the hp fwd sports car you are close to the sentra go look up the numbers in and report please no going to play your game no way sentra are slow took test drive and it took to go why even the hyundai excel blows it doors off any yr old knows that race and ll kick your butt blah blah blah let see yep that sounds just like you oh man just got it beavis butthead that you who would buy fwd automatic that costs that is capable of only and would plainly be dusted by se dunno why did you but why would someone pick the dodge stealth rt over the nissan sentra all it takes is one look travis xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos vw rec autos rec autos tech path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse decwrl morrow stanford edu morrow stanford edu zowie from zowie daedalus stanford edu craig powderkeg deforest newsgroups rec autos vw rec autos rec autos tech subject re w30 w40 or w50 message id zowie apr5215616 daedalus stanford edu date apr gmt article daedalus zowie apr5215616 references c09615bt wuvmd wustl edu organization stanford center for space science and astrophysics lines nntp posting host daedalus stanford edu in reply to brad thone message of fri apr cst in article foo brad thone c09615bt wuvmd writes well there is difference don happen to have my sae manual handy but oil viscosity in general decreases with temperature the sae numbers are based on typical curve that oils used to all have running from say the viscosity of room temperature weight at down to say that of room temperature weight at for typical weight oil oils that are designed for operation in normal temperatures just have weight specification oils that are designed for operation in exceedingly cold temperatures have tacked on the end so in winter in cold place you stick in your car in the winter and in it in the summer to approximate the appropriate viscosity throughout the year modern multi viscosity oils change viscosity much less with temperature as result their viscosity graphs cross over several curves multi vis specification pegs the curve at two temperatures normal operating temperature and cold one though can remember the numbers in any event the weights do indicate significant difference remember that your engine is temperature regulated by the thermostat and radiator or air fins most of the time unless you overheat it or something any weight of oil is better than no oil or than very old carbonized oil thin oil won in general lubricate as well at temperature thicker oil will like w50 will lubricate better at temperature but not as well during startup when most engine wear occurs if you re planning on making long drives the w50 is probably fine esp in the summer in your w40 car but if you re making short drives stick to the w40 don drink soap dilute dilute ok xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu misc forsale rec autos rec autos driving rec autos sport newsgroups triangle forsale misc forsale rec autos rec autos driving rec autos sport path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net newsserver jvnc net louie udel wupost decwrl decwrl sun barr concert rock taco ssa from ssa unity ncsu edu alavi subject geo storm best offer message id apr5 ncsu edu sender news ncsu edu usenet news system organization nc state university distribution nc date mon apr gmt lines geo storm red grey interior speed miles mostly highway power steering brakes am fm cassette speaker stereo system car looks and drives like new nada retail best offer call katherine at or leave message path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu cs utexas edu cactus org boyle from boyle cactus org craig boyle newsgroups rec autos subject re looking to buy dodge stealth have questions keywords questions message id apr6 cactus org date apr gmt article cactus apr6 references apr1 usho72 hou281 chevron com apr2 cactus org apr5 usho0b hou281 chevron com organization capital area central texas unix society austin tx lines in article apr5 usho0b hou281 chevron com hhtra usho0b hou281 chevron com haddock writes in article apr2 cactus org boyle cactus org craig boyle writes in article apr1 usho72 hou281 chevron com hhtra usho72 hou281 chevron com haddock writes found mopar spec sheet this weekend model wgt hp stealth stealth es stealth rt stealth rt tt okay ll take their word for it these arethe numbers have been stating in the past messages it really angers me that you insisted you were right and that you had no clue what your own car weighed why didn you check when first told you that your figures were implausible am giving every chance to retract figures widely known the mustang is rated at is you have hp advantage over mustang seems that the mustang is rated at hp only because ford changed its testing procedures under the older procedures it still rates closer to hp that means that the mustang has hp more like to hear better explanatin of how you come to that conclusion from the above data big threat you are ko by civic acording to yeah sure in your wet dreams and that probably where you got no sorry your wrong again you quoted the del sol as doing in according to interestingly the stealth es which is faster than your rt does the samerun in seconds according to kind of embarassing isn it why didn you check the figures before posting it only makes you look stupid when you are caught out twice with your own figures that second for the stealth ll check issue strange that you claim to have that you really should have checked go ahead and check asshole you ll realize what an idiot you are for not checking data beforeposting car drive may stealth es hp automatic for posts now you ve been harping on this may issue of car driver without posting any numbers why not because they prove me right and you ain got the guts to admit it yeah thought so if you insist gave you every chance to retract but dodge stealth es auto does an wonder why you couldn find it do you realize that sentra will run that sentra se or saturn will run in the don you think it is kind of strange that your hp sports car is so easily beaten mustang which weights about the same according to your numbers has less power and is much quicker care to explain don be abusive just try and come up with rational explanation of where those hp went to its mystery to me the sentra se really is alot quicker than the hp fwd sports car you are close to the sentra go look up the numbers in and report please no going to play your game no way sentra are slow took test drive and it took to go why even the hyundai excel blows it doors guess you drove speed and couldn shift craig path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse emory darwin sura net sgiblab daver hico2 kak from kak hico2 westmark com kris kugel newsgroups rec autos subject storing car long term keywords tires cars storage message id c50myy ew hico2 westmark com date apr gmt article hico2 c50myy ew reply to kak hico2 westmark com organization high country software lines bought car with defunct engine to use for parts for my old but still running version of the same car the car bought has good tires is there anything in particular that should do to store the defunct car long term hate to have parts of it go bad someone has told me it bad for the tires to not move the car once in while is this true do need some props to take the weight of the tires best to reply by mail am getting spotty news delivery kris kugel hico2 kak kak hico2 westmark com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu andrew cmu edu dh3q from daniel holbrook dh3q andrew cmu edu newsgroups rec autos subject re did us drive on the left date mon apr organization carnegie mellon pittsburgh pa lines message id yfkbjqs00uh e9tfo andrew cmu edu references c50k8c gla hpwin052 uksr hp com ppqkm usenet ins cwru edu nntp posting host po3 andrew cmu edu in reply to ppqkm usenet ins cwru edu the reason ask is because went to classic car meet here in the uk and saw very nice old de soto vintage guess with wooden artillery type wheels etc but it was right hand drive can believe that desoto produced rhd cars just for the uk well sweden and australia and lord knows wherever else used to drive on the wrong side of the road so the export market might have been larger then than just the uk guessing but believe in the twenties we probably drove mostly down cattle trails and in wagon ruts am fairly sure that placement of the steering wheel was pretty much arbitrary to the company at that time by the there was very active good roads movement which had its origins actually in the during the bicycle craze picked up steam in the teens witness the linclon highway association or so and the us highway support act real name something different in that first pledged federal aid to states and counties to build decent roads also the experience of widespread use of trucks for domestic transport during ww convinced the government that good raods were crucial to our national defense anyway by the there were plenty of good roads at least around urban areas and they were rapidly expanding into the countryside this was the era after all of the first auto touring fad the motel the auto camp ground etc two good books on the subject spring to mind warren belasco america on the road title may not be exact author is and another called the devil wagon in god country author forget also any of john flink or john bell rae auto histories as to placement of the steering wheel being arbitrary by the early teens there were virtually no american cars that did not have the wheel on the left in the early days cars had the wheel on the left on the right and even in the middle as well as sometimes having tiller instead of wheel this was standardized fairly early on though don know why dan dh3q andrew cmu edu carnegie mellon university applied history world history strides on from catastrophe to catastrophe whether we can comprehend and prove it or not oswald spengler path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net ira uka de news dfn de scsing switch ch news unige ch ugun2b ugun2a royer newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject hp laser jet and windows message id may1 uni2a unige ch from royer uni2a unige ch date may organization university of geneva switzerland lines has anybody had chance to find out how the new hp laser jet behaves with windows daniel royer path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse network ucsd edu munnari oz au mel dit csiro au its csiro au toyland its csiro au user from steve green its csiro au steve green newsgroups rec autos subject any subaru liberty owners out there message id steve green toyland its csiro au date apr gmt article toyland steve green sender news its csiro au followup to rec autos organization its branch csiro australia lines nntp posting host toyland its csiro au ve had my subaru liberty wd station wagon for about months now saying happy with it would be an understatement just great well built handles beautifully plenty of power ve only had if off tar once did trip over the mountains on narrow windy dirt road often very dodgey in parts the subaru did it with ease havent had so much fun driving car for years any other owners out there steve green hey rocky watch me pull rabbit outa my hat comms group that trick never works its branch nothin up my sleeve presto csiro australia no doubt about it gotta get another hat path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu csd4 csd uwm edu qazi from qazi csd4 csd uwm edu aamir hafeez qazi newsgroups rec autos subject re difference between lexus series message id pr5f8inn4om uwm edu date apr gmt article uwm pr5f8inn4om references apr5 ucsu colorado edu reply to qazi csd4 csd uwm edu organization university of wisconsin milwaukee lines nntp posting host originator qazi csd4 csd uwm edu from article apr5 ucsu colorado edu by lorenzo rintintin colorado edu eric lorenzo what is the difference between the ls300 es300 and gs300 seems lexus can stop popping out new models let me put it like this the only similarity between the three models is the or liter engine displacement actually the sc300 the coupe and the gs300 the funky looking new sedan share the same liter inline six and the es300 popular small sedan uses v6 shared with the camry the sc300 is luxury sports coupe the gs300 is the new luxury sedan and the es300 is the base executive sedan all three look completely different aamir qazi aamir qazi qazi csd4 csd uwm edu why should care rather watch drying paint path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu ux1 cso uiuc edu news cso uiuc edu uxa cso uiuc edu cka52397 from cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu carolinafan uiuc newsgroups rec autos subject re most bang for between and message id c51s16 acz news cso uiuc edu date apr gmt article news c51s16 acz references ba7c8b0 cpkjp vm cc latech edu c51ffm qx murdoch acc virginia edu sender usenet news cso uiuc edu net noise owner organization university of illinois at urbana lines rmt6r faraday clas virginia edu roy matthew thigpen writes your best bet is the dodge intrepid with the sohc valve six it gets hp and has hell of lot of room great styling and abs with four wheel disk breaks the lh cars won automobile magazines automobile of the year award and are quiet impressive is the lh under though chintan amin the university of illinois urbana champaign mail llama uiuc edu because he was human because he had goodness because he was moral they called him insane peart cinderella man path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu ux1 cso uiuc edu news cso uiuc edu uxa cso uiuc edu cka52397 from cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu carolinafan uiuc newsgroups rec autos subject re saturn pricing policy message id c51sma anc news cso uiuc edu date apr gmt article news c51sma anc references c4oxwp kkm news cso uiuc edu c4vir5 l3r shuksan ds boeing com apr5 cs brown edu sender usenet news cso uiuc edu net noise owner organization university of illinois at urbana lines cs012055 cs brown edu hok chung tsang writes in article c4vir5 l3r shuksan ds boeing com fredd shuksan fred dickey writes carolinafan uiuc cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu wrote the biggest problem some people seem to be having is that saturn dealers make on car think most will agree with me that the car is comparably priced with its competitors that is they aren overpriced compared to most cars in their class don understand the point of arguing over whether the dealer makes the or not have never understood what the big deal over dealer profits is either the only thing that can figure out is that people believe that if they minimize the dealer profit they will minimize their total out of pocket expenses for the car while this may be true in some cases do not believe that it is generally true bought saturn sl in january of at that time based on studying car prices decided that there was no comparable car that was priced as cheaply as the saturn sure maybe could have talked the price for some other car to the saturn price but my out of pocket expenses wouldn have been any different what important to me is how much money have left after buy the car reducing dealer profit is not the same thing as saving money show me how reducing dealer profit saves me money and ll believe that it important my experience has been that reducing dealer profit does not necessarily save me money fred say you bought your saturn at with dealer profit of if the dealer profit is then you would only be paying for the same car so isn that saving money yes but the point is that prices are competetive saturn may well be selling car intended on giving the dealer profit but since comperable honda with profit is more expensive it may be well worth it to buy the saturn moreover if saturn really does reduce the dealer profit margin by then their cars will be even better deals say if the price of saturn was already below market average for the class of cars then after they reduce the dealer profit it would be below market average it will attract even more people to buy saturns because it would save them money force the competitors to lower their prices to survive now not only will saturn owners benefit from lower dealer profit even the buyers for other cars will pay less not necessarily it seems to me that saturn salesdroids who don make commision whereas their counterparts at other dealerships generally do make more per hour or whatever this means that saturn doesn give up the profit to their employees through commision which is taken out of per car profits they just pass it along to less pressureing salesmen women isn that saving money maybe maybe not depends on accounting practices rather pay more for dealer service that doesn cut corners to contain costs doug cka carolina blue honda civic dx chintan amin the university of illinois urbana champaign mail llama uiuc edu because he was human because he had goodness because he was moral they called him insane peart cinderella man xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos driving rec autos tech newsgroups rec autos rec autos driving rec autos tech path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen nigel msen com sdd hp com cs utexas edu uunet bcstec rgc3679 from rgc3679 bcstec ca boeing com robert carpenter subject thinking about buying intrepid good or bad idea message id c51cj5 ly bcstec ca boeing com organization boeing computer services date tue apr gmt lines thinking of buying new dodge intrepid has anyone had any experiences that they like to share thanks bobc xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos vw path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester news crd ge com uunet elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl morrow stanford edu morrow stanford edu zowie from zowie daedalus stanford edu craig powderkeg deforest newsgroups rec autos rec autos vw subject re quick question followup to alt flame misc test date apr organization stanford center for space science and astrophysics lines message id zowie apr5221403 daedalus stanford edu references apr5 ole cdac com nntp posting host daedalus stanford edu in reply to ssave ole cdac com message of mon apr gmt in article foo ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes how do you take off the driver side door panel from the inside on an honda prelude the speaker went scratchy and want to access its pins why are you posting this tripe to rec autos vw don drink soap dilute dilute ok newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester news crd ge com uunet wupost crcnis1 unl edu moe ksu ksu edu osuunx ucc okstate edu constellation uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison from callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james callison subject re spark plug question sender usenet constellation ecn uoknor edu usenet administrator message id c51plf aw constellation ecn uoknor edu date tue apr gmt distribution na references po0o6innh13 uwm edu mgolden cwis nntp posting host uokmax ecn uoknor edu organization engineering computer network university of oklahoma norman ok usa lines in article mgolden cwis mgolden cwis unomaha edu brian golden writes the nice thing about real platinum plugs is that you don have to change them very often at all think like miles they might cost each but they would save for themselves in the long run my bird sc manual says to replace the platinum plugs every mi wal mart has autolite platinum plugs for each are these real platinum plugs had bosch platinums in my fiesta and my dad had em in his bronco note the keyword had they didn last very long much less than mi before they had to be replaced agree that they weren the greatest james james callison microcomputer coordinator of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer not an engineer but play one at work the forecast calls for thunder bird sc it hell of thing killing man you take away all he has and all he ever gonna have will munny unforgiven xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu misc forsale rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester news crd ge com uunet psinntp lupine hansen1 davek from davek hansen1 ncd com david kim newsgroups misc forsale rec autos subject honda civic dx hatchback message id lupine ncd com date apr gmt sender news ncd com followup to misc forsale organization network computing devices inc mt view ca usa lines nntp posting host hansen2 honda civic dx hatchback metallic light blue new clutch and new brakes runs great asking email davek ncd com or call dave kim at path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu cs utexas edu cactus org boyle from boyle cactus org craig boyle newsgroups rec autos subject re did us drive on the left message id apr6 cactus org date apr gmt article cactus apr6 references c50k8c gla hpwin052 uksr hp com ppqkm usenet ins cwru edu yfkbjqs00uh e9tfo andrew cmu edu organization capital area central texas unix society austin tx lines in article yfkbjqs00uh e9tfo andrew cmu edu daniel holbrook dh3q andrew cmu edu writes stuff about rhd desoto deleted well sweden and australia and lord knows wherever else used to drive on australians still do drive on the wrong side of the road believe sweden changed in the way heard it was that they swapped all the traffic signs around one sunday the wrong side of the road so the export market might have been larger then than just the uk craig xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos vw path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu rpi news columbia edu cunixa cc columbia edu ct22 from ct22 cunixa cc columbia edu constantino tobio newsgroups rec autos rec autos vw subject re quick question message id apr6 news columbia edu date apr gmt article news apr6 sender usenet news columbia edu the network news organization columbia university lines nntp posting host cunixa cc columbia edu newsgroups rec autos rec autos vw subject re quick question summary expires references apr5 ole cdac com sender reply to ct22 cunixa cc columbia edu constantino tobio followup to distribution organization columbia university keywords removing panels in article apr5 ole cdac com ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes how do you take off the driver side door panel from the inside on an honda prelude the speaker went scratchy and want to access its pins see only one press button and the rest is snug fit ssave ole cdac com quick question why are you posting this to vw newsgroup newsgroups rec autos rec autos vw subject re quick question summary followup to distribution world organization columbia university keywords newsgroups rec autos rec autos vw newsgroups rec autos rec autos vw subject re quick question summary expires references apr5 ole cdac com sender reply to ct22 cunixa cc columbia edu constantino tobio followup to distribution organization columbia university keywords removing panels in article apr5 ole cdac com ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes how do you take off the driver side door panel from the inside on an honda prelude the speaker went scratchy and want to access its pins see only one press button and the rest is snug fit ssave ole cdac com quick question why are you posting this to vw newsgroup constantino tobio jr ct22 columbia edu tremble you weaklings cower in fear am your ruler land sea and air immense in my girth erect stand tall nuclear murderer am polaris megadeth rust in peace path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech rutgers dmdscs viamar kmembry from kmembry viamar uucp kirk membry newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject roman bmp no message id tws4ra7abh107h viamar uucp date apr gmt reply to rutgers viamar kmembry organization private system lines please don post uuencoded bitmaps here if you want to do so put them in the alt binaries areas these files are very large and may crash some users newsfeeds it also waste of band width also we all know how to convert gif to bmp with many programs so it really not worth posting all of these bmp files thanks kirk membry our age is the age of industry rutgers viamar kmembry alexander rodchenko path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse network ucsd edu usc wupost eclnews cec1 mps1 from mps1 cec1 wustl edu mihir pramod shah newsgroups rec autos subject re saturn puzzled by its pricing message id apr6 wuecl wustl edu date apr gmt article wuecl apr6 references mar30 magnus acs ohio state edu pah20inn67a uwm edu apr1 cbfsb cb att com sender usenet wuecl wustl edu news administrator distribution na organization washington university st louis mo lines nntp posting host cec1 in article apr1 cbfsb cb att com ykhsu cbnewsf cb att com yung kao hsu writes am the person who started out this subject to me the question really is not about dealer profit but the amount of money for the type of car ve settled with new subaru wagon with the similar amount of money saturn dealer asked for sw1 ok know it model but think got better car though have to adjust my initial idea of why am getting new car today during conversion with friend learned he rejected saturn for ford tarurs as it only costed him little bit more than sl2 may be wrong but loaded tarus beats saturn sl2 agree that fully loaded sl2 would come close in price to lower end ford taurus fully loaded taurus on the other hand would still be substantially more expensive than even the most glitzy sl2 fully loaded sl2 would run somewhere around while fully loaded taurus lx would be somewhere around the range base taurus gl believe might start around of course there is the taurus sho which can push if you really try but this is totally different car than your mainstream taurus sedan your statement was not entirely faulty just little inaccurate can see saturn is of better value and that is why was puzzled by its pricings oh we did not spend much time getting our deals being better informed has its advantages well that ok at least you re not bitching about dealer profits like some of the other netters are you seem to have rationally picked out the car that is best for you the loyale is an aging design that is about to be replaced by the impreza wagon so you probably got good deal on one of the last ones then again may be wrong yung kao hsu mihir shah mps1 cec1 wustl edu newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net wupost uunet walter att out cbnewsl pp from pp cbnewsl cb att com peter peng subject integra ls for sale organization at bell laboratories distribution nj date mon apr gmt message id apr5 cbnewsl cb att com keywords for sale integra lines integra ls for sale speed sunroof rear spoiler new tires miles or best offer call email att hotsoup peng newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel wupost uunet boulder ucsu rintintin colorado edu lorenzo from lorenzo rintintin colorado edu eric lorenzo subject re integra gsr message id apr6 ucsu colorado edu sender news ucsu colorado edu usenet news system nntp posting host rintintin colorado edu organization university of colorado boulder references apr5 ns1 cc lehigh edu date tue apr gmt lines in article apr5 ns1 cc lehigh edu daz1 ns1 cc lehigh edu demosthenis zeppos writes why don you look again at motor trend slalom times they are right along with the integra and the car does that with small inch tires that are all weather xgtv4 not to mention that the integra rides alot better than beretta my gs came with xgt v4s and they are not all weather tires took out my right front bumper sliding on packed snow not ice before learned this fact immediately bought xgt h4s which are definately all weather carrera walk by everyday has xgt v4s on it even the michelin dealer where bought my new tires said the v4s were made out of different rubber that gets really hard and slick when the weather gets near feezing said he only try to sell me those tires during the winter if we were in texas and not colorado thanks eric an inactive lifestyle eric lorenzo violates our genetic warranty lorenzo rintintin colorado edu not to excercise is not also spot ucsu to be fully human keith johnsgard path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu uunet olivea decwrl pa dec com doc cs nyu edu it2691 from it2691 doc cs nyu edu tim tsai newsgroups rec autos subject awd bmw message id aa07384 doc cs nyu edu date apr gmt lines received by usenet pa dec com id aa12484 mon apr received by inet gw pa dec com id aa26423 mon apr received by doc cs nyu edu id aa07384 tue apr to rec autos usenet mailer elm version pl2 any truth to the rumor of an awd series for believe this info was published in either popular science or autoweek couple of months ago also friend told me that bmw used to make an awd called the ix appreciate any info about this car too thanks thanks tim newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net wupost eclnews cec1 mps1 from mps1 cec1 wustl edu mihir pramod shah subject re saturn performance was re saturn puzzled by its pricing message id apr6 wuecl wustl edu sender usenet wuecl wustl edu news administrator nntp posting host cec1 organization washington university st louis mo references hydra gatech edu apr01 watson ibm com fjdcfu00iv2i9kap andrew cmu edu distribution na date tue apr gmt lines in article fjdcfu00iv2i9kap andrew cmu edu jason roth jr4q andrew cmu edu writes can imagine any civic or saturn owners flex there egos in stop light races it generates as much excitement as two nerds challenging each other in game of one on one basketball the sl2 does in about note that this is closer to than to paseo or storm pseudo sporty cars that ridiculous comparison know but the point is that saturns and high end civics for that matter accelerate just fine in fact better than most unimproved muscle cars of the hp is great but tied to tons it just doesn go that quick saturns on the other hand use hp tied to lbs with some short gearing to move very quickly off the line anyway while your time is consistent with most car magazines and reports saw the pbs motorweek show clock speed sl2 at seconds sure that most sl2 owners will be very lucky to get this speed but seconds is still astonishingly fast for small door new civic ex runs about seconds if not mistaken most cars in this class are lucky to be in the second range mihir shah path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc sdd hp com saimiri primate wisc edu usenet coe montana edu news washington edu stalfos eliot from eliot stalfos engr washington edu eliot newsgroups rec autos subject re awd bmw date apr gmt organization clearer than blir lines message id apr06 engr washington edu references aa07384 doc cs nyu edu nntp posting host in europe you can buy ix with computer controlled diffs rather than the horrid viscous coupled ones of the outgoing ix eliot newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com paladin american edu howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu uunet pipex sunic celsiustech se kega from kega celsiustech se kent gabrin subject re did us drive on the left message id apr6 celsiustech se organization celsiustech ab references ppqkm usenet ins cwru edu yfkbjqs00uh e9tfo andrew cmu edu apr6 cactus org date tue apr gmt lines in article apr6 cactus org boyle cactus org craig boyle writes deleted lines well sweden and australia and lord knows wherever else used to drive on australians still do drive on the wrong side of the road believe sweden changed in the way heard it was that they swapped all the traffic signs around one sunday as live in sweden remember the day perfectly well we changed side or sep don remeber the exactly time but it was in the night in the big cities like stockholm gothenburg all trafic was forbidden exept busses and taxis during the whole weekend the day was sunday and everything was prepared in before before the day we was told to follow the yellow lines on the road and after it was the white one that matters the signs with arrows on was prepared with left mode label that was torn off that night to reveal the new right mode arrow the year after iceland also changed about cars before the day as in hoegertrafik hoeger is swedish and stands for right practically all cars already had their steering wheels on the left side even the imported cars from uk had the wheel on the right side at last we have cars with the wheels on the right side more contries that uses the left side is japan tanzania think new zeeland how about south africa btw some sais that the left side is the right side because ivanhoe and other knights meet at the left when they fight in tournaments deleted lines kent gabrin celsiustech systems my thinking is not as great as jaerfaella sweden oliver berendinus bumble will try kega celsiustech se company sold again former name was nobeltech path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet pipex bnr co uk stc bbsls23 boyle from boyle bbsls23 bnr ian boyle newsgroups rec autos subject re what is volvo date apr gmt organization bnr europe ltd lines distribution world message id prno8innrri bnsgd245 bnr co uk references pl86tinnfv7 gap caltech edu reply to boyle bbsls23 bnr nntp posting host bbsls23 bnr co uk and all of these cars are driven fairly hard none of them are at the head of line of cars going mph the first two spend lot of their operating life with the speedometer pegged and the only reason the doesn is it has mph speedo what want to know is have all you people who hate volvos been traumatized by someone in turbo wagon blowing you away on the road or what turbo in uk was good for mph useful for blowing away vw beetles though believe the beetle corners better can say without any doubt that have never been blown away by any volvo ever ve been blocked into few car parks though by shit head volvo owners who only thought they be few minutes this does not happen with the owners of any other makes of car not sure how long the small shit box volvos last too damn long the worst car ever drove was hired in power handling and ride it was reminiscent of something from the without the character the only ceased production couple of years back ve only been passenger in the big volvos but that was enough ought to go for test drive because they offer some neat gifts path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc wupost uunet caen rphroy kocrsv01 jdmooney from jdmooney kocrsv01 delcoelect com john mooney newsgroups rec autos subject re anti theft devices message id apr5 kocrsv01 delcoelect com date apr gmt references apr2 kocrsv01 delcoelect com rphroy ph gmr com sender news kocrsv01 delcoelect com usenet news account organization delco electronics corp lines originator jdmooney koinsv02 in article rphroy ph gmr com rhaar gmr com bob haar writes in article kocrsv01 delcoelect com jdmooney kocrsv01 delcoelect com john mooney writes someone writes btw somebody stole the front grille off my beat up nissan sentra few weeks ago couldn believe it just driving around without it now years ago my brother lived in rough area he left his nova parked on the street in front of his house for few days one day he went to move it back into the driveway it wouldn start seems some industrious fool needed nova gas tank the fool found one under my brothers car the engines in vw beatles are quite easy to remove without entering the car or even opening the engine compartment how would you like to find that your car wouldn start because the engine was stolen would probobly feel hell of lot poorer gas tank is about in junkyard an engine more seriously though my other brother darrell left his vw on the same street someone stole the radiator out of it try finding vw radiator in junkyard dare you jd john mooney delco electronics general motors jdmooney kocrsv01 delcoelect com opinions expressed are mine not necessarily de or gm path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net wupost uunet caen rphroy kocrsv01 c23st from c23st kocrsv01 delcoelect com spiros triantafyllopoulos newsgroups rec autos subject re bullet proof luxury sedans message id apr5 kocrsv01 delcoelect com date apr gmt references pnigoinn5in senator bedfellow mit edu sender news kocrsv01 delcoelect com usenet news account distribution usa organization delco electronics corp lines in article pnigoinn5in senator bedfellow mit edu chsu mtl mit edu charles hsu writes am interested to find out if there is any domestic car manufacturer especially gm and ford which produces bullet proof luxury sedans understand caddy is working on one double battery super high perf engine more gauges bit stretched etc lots of communication equipment the works color selection is limited though the problem is that the guy at penn avenue is about to get it pres clinton last time it was lincoln this time caddy am just wondering if this so called bullet proof perhaps reinforced windows special materials for the body engine etc luxury car lincoln and cadillac models is readily available to the public not to my knowledge know gm does conversion work for things like hot climates the chevy caprices sold to the middle east but things like that are always done by third parties not the manufacturer maybe you will need to buy specific package that has beefed up everything perhaps the police cruiser package on the caprice crown vic and start from there do we have to go through any special dealership to obtain these cars would really like to hear from anyone who has experience with the bullet proof cars and wuz drivin along in my armored seville sts and this punk pulls out of nowhere with an rpg rocket propelled grenade but the bulletproof windshield stopped him don think many people on the net have need for bulletproof cars check with local armored service companies security bodyguard places they know best think your average luxury car dealer will have coronary if you told them ll take the blue caprice with options fz01 fuzzy dice pr11 power everything and ar007 armor any information regarding the dealers and after market shops that have bullet proof lincoln and cadillac is greatly appreciated you may email me at chsu mtl mit edu or post the message in this newsgroup if you believe other netters might be interested as well btw same information on mercedes benz bmw lexus and infiniti luxury sedans is needed as well if you have it believe an article on the conversion process appeared in the car press within the last few months spiros spiros triantafyllopoulos c23st kocrsv01 delcoelect com software technology delco electronics gm hughes electronics kokomo in different kind of disclaimer xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os ms windows misc comp os ms windows setup path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu malgudi oar net caen cmuvm csv cmich edu nigs2 organization central michigan university date saturday may edt from nigs2 cmuvm csv cmich edu message id nigs2 cmuvm csv cmich edu newsgroups comp os ms windows misc comp os ms windows setup subject help needed dos apps and windows lines since loading windows two of my dos applications have been acting strangely it appears that font changes and page orientation changes so far are not being recognized in wordperfect dos and quattropro dos another dos application does accept font and page orientation changes so don think the problem is with the printer reloaded quattropro and these changes are still not accepted whether launching from windows or the dos prompt does anyone have any suggestions as to where to look or how to correct this problem ve ordered quattropro for windows but need landscape application printed immediately please mail thanks in advance sue bittner internet nigs2 cmuvm csv cmich edu central michigan university bitnet nigs2 cmuvm mt pleasant mi xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos vw path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net wupost uunet caen rphroy kocrsv01 c23st from c23st kocrsv01 delcoelect com spiros triantafyllopoulos newsgroups rec autos rec autos vw subject re top reasons why love cr not for the humor impaired message id apr5 kocrsv01 delcoelect com date apr gmt references apr01 engr washington edu apr1 newsgate sps mot com c4wjgq a40 constellation ecn uoknor edu sender news kocrsv01 delcoelect com usenet news account distribution na organization delco electronics corp lines in article c4wjgq a40 constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james callison writes no at six years you are nearing the end of the design life of the vehicle when everything should be breaking at that point the driving habits make more difference than the actual reliability of the vehicle so the data becomes unreliable for drawing conclusions bad driving habits can damage car in couple of months not years if that were not the case everyone would be driving fleet rental re solds and while you are considering things factors in stat terms how about city vs highway driving ratios owner vs dealer service extreme weather or environment adherence sp to maintenance schedules whether the car has ever been in an accident number of different drivers of the same car in family whether the car is garaged warmed up spiros spiros triantafyllopoulos c23st kocrsv01 delcoelect com software technology delco electronics gm hughes electronics kokomo in different kind of disclaimer path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech howland reston ans net newsserver jvnc net darwin sura net dtix dt navy mil oasys tobias from tobias oasys dt navy mil steve tobias newsgroups rec autos subject re most bang for between and message id oasys dt navy mil date apr gmt references ba7c8b0 cpkjp vm cc latech edu reply to tobias oasys dt navy mil steve tobias distribution na organization carderock division nswc bethesda md lines in rec autos cpkjp vm cc latech edu kevin parker writes like to get some feedback on car with most bang for the buck in the to price range looking for car with enough civility to be driven every day or even on long trips but when hit the gas want to feel some acceleration handling is important also as are reliability and pretty low maintenance costs stylish appearance is nice but don want car that is all show and not much go even though many of the imports are fast don really want turbo and never have cared for the song sung by four clyinder prefer v6 or v8 for the engine if you have any suggestions kevin parker there only one car that really fits your needs it spelled liter mustang xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos vw rec autos rec autos tech path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu wupost tulane invader finnegan from finnegan invader navo navy mil kenneth finnegan newsgroups rec autos vw rec autos rec autos tech subject re w30 w40 or w50 message id apr6 cs tulane edu date apr gmt article cs apr6 references c09615bt wuvmd wustl edu zowie apr5215616 daedalus stanford edu sender news cs tulane edu reply to finnegan navo navy mil organization grumman data systems lines nntp posting host nntpd invader navo navy mil as an additional data point have run castrol w50 exclusively in the following cars rabbit scirocco rabbit bus beetle bus jetta gli ve never had an oil related problem disclaimer it gets mighty hot down here kenneth finnegan navo navy mil path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse decwrl uunet news centerline com jimf from jimf centerline com jim frost newsgroups rec autos subject re dumbest automotive concepts of all time message id prve9 aa armory centerline com date apr gmt article armory prve9 aa references apr5 gdwest gd com pq6i2 a1f news ysu edu apr6 ucsu colorado edu organization centerline software inc lines nntp posting host dunnjj ucsu colorado edu dunn jonathan james writes ak296 yfn ysu edu john daker writes cup holders driving is an importantant enough undertaking this is good idea so you can carry your non alcoholic drinks without spilling or having someone hold on to them agree six hour long stretches behind the wheel really make me thirsty especially for something with caffeine consider it failing of my car that it has no cup holder nor anywhere to put cup holder jim frost jimf centerline com newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net uunet pipex marble uknet ac uk mcsun news funet fi news lut fi jahonen from jahonen cc lut fi jarmo ahonen subject re what is volvo sender news lut fi usenet news message id c52co2 dnl lut fi date tue apr gmt references pl86tinnfv7 gap caltech edu prno8innrri bnsgd245 bnr co uk nntp posting host cc lut fi organization lappeenranta university of technology finland lines boyle bbsls23 bnr ian boyle writes turbo in uk was good for mph useful for blowing away vw beetles though believe the beetle corners better can say without any doubt that have never been blown away by any volvo ever ve been blocked into few car parks though by shit head volvo owners who only thought they be few minutes this does not happen with the owners of any other makes of car not sure how long the small shit box volvos last too damn long the worst car ever drove was hired in power handling and ride it was reminiscent of something from the without the character the only ceased production couple of years back ve only been passenger in the big volvos but that was enough ought to go for test drive because they offer some neat gifts oh well have to admit that the most disgusting feature of volvo is their marketing it looks like volvo uses something like do you dare to risk your family in any car attitude which is quite annoying in the long run but now volvo has produced new good car the volvo front drive valves motor completely new chassis etc even the british magazine car liked it and believe me that is quite much for volvo and the american magazine road track said that this is not your uncle olof car and in positive sense but in any case still like to own the estate strong tank like chassis inline six rear drive btw the only car drivers who have blocked me are land rover or jaguar drivers what you mean what drive cheapo japanese toyota of course do not have money for car like bmw merc jaguar saab volvo or etc if had the money would have bad problems deciding which one to buy newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net uunet pipex sunic ericom st83 etxmst from etxmst sta ericsson se markus strobl subject re photo radar was re rec autos frequently message id apr6 ericsson se sender news ericsson se nntp posting host st83 ericsson se reply to etxmst sta ericsson se organization ericsson telecom ab references apr5 viewlogic com date tue apr gmt lines in article viewlogic com brad buck viewlogic com bradford kellogg writes in article mar20 cabot balltown cma com welty cabot balltown cma com richard welty writes what is ka band radar where is it used should radar detector be able to handle it ka band has recently been made available by the fcc for use in the us in so called photo radar installations in these installations low powered beam is aimed across the road at degree angle to the direction of traffic and picture is taken of vehicles which the radar unit determines to have been in violation of the speed limit tickets are mailed to the owner of the vehicle because of the low power and the degree angle many people believe that radar detector cannot give reasonable warning of ka band radar unit although some manufacturers of radar detectors have added such capability anyway the number of locales where photo radar is in use is limited and some question the legality of such units best advice learn what photo radar units look like and keep track of where they are used or else don speed photo radar and mailed tickets make no sense at all speeding is moving violation committed by the operator not the owner the owner may be rental agency dealer private party or government agency as long as the owner has no reason to expect the operator will be driving illegally or unsafely the owner cannot be held responsible for what the operator does the car may even have been driven without the owner knowledge or consent can believe mailed ticket where the driver is not identified would stand up in court this is obviously lazy cynical boneheaded fascist way to extort revenue and has nothing to do with public safety bk we had those photo radar things here in sweden while ago there was lot of fuzz about them and lot of sabotage too spray can with touch up paint can do lot of good eventually they had to drop the idea as there were lot of court cases where the owner of the car could prove he didn drive it at the time of speeding especially recall case where it eventually proved to be car thief that had stolen car and made false plates he ofcourse chose license number of identical car so the photo seemed correct in conclosion photo radar sucks every way you look at it markus newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc sdd hp com col hp com news dtc hp com srgenprp eric from eric sad hp com eric lucas subject clifford delta car alarm sender news srgenprp sr hp com news administrator message id c52doe srgenprp sr hp com date tue apr gmt organization hp sonoma county srsd mwtd mid newsreader tin version pl6 lines just found great deal on clifford delta car alarm installed comes with glass break sensor motion detector and shock detector does anyone have one of these alarms are they any good from the looks of it its about the best on the market for the price it also on sale so that another reason to get it think ll be saving almost any opinions eric lucas path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu andrew cmu edu so0z from sang yoon oh so0z andrew cmu edu newsgroups rec autos subject re jeep grand vs toyota runner date tue apr organization junior mechanical engineering carnegie mellon pittsburgh pa lines message id mfkmvg wblq1nmoj andrew cmu edu references c50tly igw world std com pq29p seven up east sun com c51hn0 ji world std com nntp posting host po2 andrew cmu edu in reply to c51hn0 ji world std com in article pq29p seven up east sun com jfox hooksett east sun com writes any reason you are limited to the two mentioned they aren really at the same point along the suv spectrum not to mention price range how about the explorer trooper blazer montero and if the budget allows the land cruiser any advice on how to buy land cruiser my local toyota dealer says they get two year and if want one can just get on the waiting list forget about test drive or even kicking the tires and if they are that rare doubt there is much of parts inventory on hand land crusier is just simply nice with shit load of power and room fully stocked it cost think it is worth the money only problem is when you get into accident it doesn usually break down unless you forget to get oil change for miles or something stupid like this body parts and other parts are very hard to locate parts are over priced also one of my friend had accident in past snow storm and he is still waiting for front bumper and passenger side fender well if you test drive land cruiser all other suv look like toys one of magazine writer called it land bruiser if you have to spare for suv get land cruiser and forget lange rover sang path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse emory wupost howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu magnus acs ohio state edu jnielsen from jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu john nielsen newsgroups rec autos subject re integra gsr message id apr6 magnus acs ohio state edu date apr gmt article magnus apr6 references apr5 ns1 cc lehigh edu apr6 cactus org sender news magnus acs ohio state edu organization the ohio state university lines nntp posting host photon magnus acs ohio state edu in article apr6 cactus org boyle cactus org craig boyle writes miles rare screw up by honda both the gtz and gsr are flawed cars the performance enthusiasts would take the gtz and the cr purchase would be the gsr the cr purchase would be the ford probe gt john john nielsen magnus consultant to you baldrick the renaissance was just something that happened to other people wasn it the black adder xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos vw newsgroups rec autos rec autos vw path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu utnut torn watserv2 uwaterloo ca watserv1 metrics com tomh from tomh metrics com tom haapanen subject re top reasons why love cr not for the humor impaired organization software metrics inc distribution na date tue apr gmt message id apr06 metrics com references apr01 engr washington edu apr3 nuscc nus sg lines chints iscs nus sg writes here are another ten reasons why we should all love cr car salesmen love their new car buying service car salesmen rec auto readers turned into expert statistics critics lucky owners of cr unreliable cars who say mine never had problem those same owners joining the sceptics few months later and later subscribing to cr and taking it soooo seriously and later on buying cr idealized family sedan and my number the spectacle of the religious fervour of the cr true believers tom haapanen tomh metrics com software metrics inc waterloo ont stick your index fingers into both corners of your mouth now pull up that how the corrado makes you feel car january xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech hubcap ludes from ludes hubcap clemson edu larry ludes ludwig subject re challenge to microsoft supporters message id may1 hubcap clemson edu organization clemson university references apr30 samba oit unc edu c6bgzv mk uceng uc edu date sat may gmt lines stuff deleted about microsoft bferrell ant occ uc edu brett ferrell writes if you think that windows is useable you must not use it much windows version of crash protection is wearing helmet while computing the arir air bag is an expensive add on brett you must of read too many os advertisements crash protection is such marketing gimick it isn funny out of months of using windows on my new machine ve only had it crash once and don have run of the mill configuration microsoft is not leader in innovation but they certainly know how to build better mousetrap now what wrong with that larry ludes ludwig it always taken me twice to get clemson university compsci undergrad it right you never heard of the ludes hubcap clemson edu apple ludes clemson clemson edu steve jobs path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse news tek com sail charlesw from charlesw sail labs tek com charles wilson newsgroups rec autos subject re experience opinions sought diesel engines message id sail labs tek com date apr gmt article sail references hydra gatech edu organization tektronix inc beaverton or lines in article hydra gatech edu jkg jmp com writes apologies if this is faq is there faq posting for this group am an infrequent reader of rec autos so can remember am in the market for used chevy suburban and have observed that prices for models with diesel engines run about less than comparable models with gas engine there has to be reason for this yes there is consumer confusion in the early with the fuel crisis etc everyone wanted better fuel mileage diesel fuel was the cheapest fuel available and usually provides better mileage than comparable gasoline engines so gm decided to conver their gas engine into diesel engine think was liter big mistake the engine was not redesigned but converted the engine could not handle the higher compression etc lots of problems with these cars this thew up big red flag to the casual observer don buy diesel they are bad this was gross generalization ask yourself this question if your livelihood depended on driving lots of it would you use dependable or undependable but cheaper in the short run vehicle what do greyhound busses have in them trailer trucks even train locomotives are these gasoline engines no they are diesel tractor trailer truck manufacturers provide mile warrantee with they vehicles own an diesel suburban the diesel is great engine just keeps going it was more expensive when new than the gasoline engine vehicle was the only problem with diesel engines is that when they need to be rebuilt they are expensive in gas engine you will pay about for rebuild diesel is about but then again the diesel engine lasts about twice as long and gets about better mileage carburator for gasoline engine costs about to rebuild or less rebuild of the fuel injection pump on diesel will cost about or more but then again you never need tune up if you re looking at rebuilt say you got great deal check to see if the fuel injection pump was rebuilt also good luck newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net wupost uunet acd4 sedv1 jwg from jwg sedv1 acd com jim grey subject re necessity of fuel injector cleaning by dealership message id apr6 acd4 acd com sender jwg acd4 acd com jim grey organization hell references apr2 cbnewsl cb att com date tue apr gmt lines in article apr2 cbnewsl cb att com prm cbnewsl cb att com paul mount writes in your experience how true is it that fuel injector cleaning will do much more good than just using detergent gas while agree that clogged fuel injector would darken my day how clogged do they get and is good price or can do it myself by buying can of what and doing what fuel injector cleaning at the dealer is probably little more than them opening your gas tank dumping in bottle of fuel injector cleaner and sending you on your merry way poorer go to kmart and buy the cleaner yourself for just because you dealer sez you need it don mean it necessarily so be suspicious jim grey jwg acd4 acd com xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu news announce newgroups news groups rec autos misc consumers path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse network ucsd edu usc howland reston ans net noc near net uunet bounce back from tommy boole att com tommy reingold newsgroups news announce newgroups news groups rec autos misc consumers subject rfd rec autos saab message id psb8qinnbb2 rodan uu net date apr gmt article rodan psb8qinnbb2 sender tale rodan uu net followup to news groups organization at bell labs holmdel nj usa lines approved tale uunet uu net nntp posting host rodan uu net request for discussion this is request for discussion on the creation of newsgroup concerning saab cars it will allow participaants to exchange information on purchasing maintaining repairing and outfitting saabs group name rec autos saab status unmoderated rationale there may be enough people with saab cars or interested in buying saab or interested in knowing more about saabs for any reason to justify such new newsgroup the recent growth of the net could improve the turnaround time between posing question and receiving answers from the community discussion comments on this proposed new newsgroup should be posted to the usenet newsgroup news groups if the reader is not able to do so comments may be mailed to the proposer at the address below voting if no problems arise voting will start month from the posting date of this rfd proposer tommy reingold tommy boole att com tommy reingold at bell labs holmdel nj tommy boole att com or att boole tommy xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos vw rec autos newsgroups rec autos vw rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net news cs brandeis edu chaos cs brandeis edu andyh from andyh chaos cs brandeis edu andrew huang subject re audiwatch update tm message id apr6 news cs brandeis edu sender news news cs brandeis edu usenet news system organization brandeis university references c4v4kf mla interlan com apr2 magnus acs ohio state edu apr2 news cs brandeis edu date tue apr gmt lines in article apr2 news cs brandeis edu andyh chaos cs brandeis edu andrew huang writes in article apr2 magnus acs ohio state edu bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu brian queiser writes powell interlan interlan com glen powell writes the kind of corporate raiding apparently undertaken by vw is shameful agreed however the particular execs had been working with iggy for many years and had left gm europe to go to detroit with their raison andy was out of date vw is stealing execs directly from opel independent of lopez shameful andy xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos vw newsgroups rec autos rec autos vw path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net news cs brandeis edu chaos cs brandeis edu andyh from andyh chaos cs brandeis edu andrew huang subject re quick question message id apr6 news cs brandeis edu keywords removing panels sender news news cs brandeis edu usenet news system organization brandeis university references apr5 ole cdac com date tue apr gmt lines in article apr5 ole cdac com ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes how do you take off the driver side door panel from the inside on an honda prelude the speaker went scratchy and want to access its pins there is something going on here it seems that once month the vw group must have get specific detailed question about hondas would like to ask that next month we get one about hyundai instead of honda thank you andy xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos soc women path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu ux1 cso uiuc edu news cso uiuc edu uxa cso uiuc edu mwbg9715 from mwbg9715 uxa cso uiuc edu mark wayne blunier newsgroups rec autos soc women subject re male female mystery re dumbest automotive concepts of all time message id c52m5t n55 news cso uiuc edu date apr gmt article news c52m5t n55 references otoceinng47 shelley washington edu p9u3sinnc31 mojo eng umd edu apr1 iscnvx lmsc lockheed com pima2inn180 gap caltech edu pq8tkinnbek chester ksu ksu edu sender usenet news cso uiuc edu net noise owner organization university of illinois at urbana lines bets chester ksu ksu edu beth schwindt writes this has me thinking is there biological reason why women can put their keys in their pants pockets like men do have two pockets on the back of each of my pants put my keys in one and wallent in another many of the pockets even have botton on them so can close them securely everything is that much simpler for me why can women do the same is is biological ie not enough room for bigger bottom plus keys and wallet or is it the way they are raised by the parents ve found that it has to do with the way women clothes are made if you put keys in the front pocket of women jeans or slacks you get bulge that also tends to make it impossible to sit down because they stick you constantly ditto in the back pocket also try looking at the back pockets of women jeans and compare them to the back pockets on men jeans they are usually if you buy jeans that you expect to last for any length of time about half the size there flat out isn room for wallet or bunch of keys besides which where would men put all their crap if their wives didn carry purses the same place single men do wallet in back pocket comb in other back pocket keys in front pocket knive in other from pocket pen in shirt pocket or front pants pocket or do married men start carrying around bunch of stuff to keep there women happy beth mark path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse network ucsd edu usc zaphod mps ohio state edu ub galileo cc rochester edu news from dbak elm lle rochester edu douglas baker newsgroups rec autos subject performance of new mustangs message id apr6 galileo cc rochester edu date apr gmt article galileo apr6 sender news galileo cc rochester edu organization university of rochester rochester ny lines nntp posting host elm lle rochester edu does anyone know the performance ratings for or ho mustang lx like the time mile and top end also can you tell me which magazine where these come from so can look them up if possable if you could the year and month and eveen page if you have it thanks doug path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu malgudi oar net news ysu edu psuvm rsm2 organization penn state university date tue apr edt from rsm2 psuvm psu edu message id rsm2 psuvm psu edu newsgroups rec autos subject us made suv lines mercedes benz announced yesterday its plans to begin building sport utility vehicles in the us by they are targeted at the jeep grand cherokee et al and will reportedly sell for less than did anyone see picture is it the wagon gelaendewagen currently available in europe and in the us by grey market or is it an entirely new vehicle any details would be appreciated dick meyer applied research laboratory penn state path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse decwrl uunet dove starchild ncsl nist gov keys from keys starchild ncsl nist gov lawrence keys newsgroups rec autos subject re us made suv message id c52ke9 d6n dove nist gov date apr gmt article dove c52ke9 d6n references rsm2 psuvm psu edu sender news dove nist gov organization national institute of standards technology lines in article rsm2 psuvm psu edu rsm2 psuvm psu edu writes mercedes benz announced yesterday its plans to begin building sport utility vehicles in the us by they are targeted at the jeep grand cherokee et al and will reportedly sell for less than did anyone see picture is it the wagon gelaendewagen currently there is picture in the may edition of european car although it may not be on the shelf yet some things that the article says prototype has front wheel drive first front drive for mercedes since the beginning of wwii wheelbase seater they claim that the price will be about the same as renault espace or chrysler voyager dm looking at the picture slightly disguised it looks like the ford aerostar to me available in europe and in the us by grey market or is it an entirely new vehicle any details would be appreciated dick meyer applied research laboratory penn state larry keys csmes ncsl nist gov oo fahrvergnugen forever the fact that need to explain it to you indicates that you probably wouldn understand anyway newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com darwin sura net sgiblab sdd hp com portal uunet pipex uknet jet kb from kb jet uk kenneth blackler subject re roman bmp in response to the requests for cool bitmaps am posting one message id apr29 jet uk organization joint european torus references c65fzk m2 sunfish usd edu distribution world date thu apr gmt lines hello cliff many people on the internet like us have to pay for every byte of data passed through subscribed news groups bitmaps are large bitmaps cost us lot of money there are special news groups for bitmaps because of this we don subscribe to them put you bitmaps in the right place read one of the faq guides in the newuser groups and it will tell you all about bitmaps and the thousands of establishments like mine that you have just cost money some of them have very limited budgets go away this is flame you distribution of usa didn work kenb ken blackler kb jet uk fusion jet joint undertaking abingdon energy for the oxfordshire england ox14 ea far future disclaimer please note that the above is personal view and should not be construed as an official comment from the jet project xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos vw rec autos rec autos tech path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse decwrl morrow stanford edu ari from ari leland stanford edu ari ollikainen newsgroups rec autos vw rec autos rec autos tech subject re w30 w40 or w50 message id psg9cinnn86 morrow stanford edu date apr gmt article morrow psg9cinnn86 references zowie apr5215616 daedalus stanford edu apr6 cs tulane edu jgladu distribution world organization dsg stanford university ca usa lines nntp posting host mordor stanford edu in article jgladu jgladu bcm tmc edu grungy john gladu writes in article apr6 cs tulane edu finnegan invader navo navy mil kenneth finnegan wrote as an additional data point have run castrol w50 exclusively in the following cars rabbit scirocco rabbit bus beetle bus jetta gli ve never had an oil related problem add mine to that list superbeetles bugs dddpanel cringe toyota tercel it my wife car honest still chicken about running it in the vanagon that got castrol w40 in it don understand this last statement about the vanagon our vanagon owner manual recommends w50 ari ollikainen former vw fanatic bug bug porschepower porsche356sc bugauto stick camper camper westfalia vwporsche914 westfalia vanagon westfalia and now only vanagoncarat path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse network ucsd edu news acns nwu edu uicvm uic edu u09579 from u09579 uicvm uic edu newsgroups chi forsale rec autos uic general uiuc general subject honda crx for sale message id u09579 uicvm uic edu date apr gmt article uicvm u09579 organization university of illinois at chicago academic computer center lines my friend david gordon wants to sell his honda some of the details of th car are as follows five speed am fm cassette stereo ps pb rear window defroster excellent condition asking obo please call him at path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse decwrl wupost monsanto com bb1t monsanto com sekell from sekell bb1t monsanto com newsgroups rec autos subject re necessity of fuel injector cleaning by dealership message id apr6 bb1t monsanto com date apr gmt article bb1t apr6 references apr2 cbnewsl cb att com apr6 acd4 acd com sender news tin monsanto com usenet news system organization monsanto company st louis mo lines in article apr6 acd4 acd com jwg sedv1 acd com jim grey writes in article apr2 cbnewsl cb att com prm cbnewsl cb att com paul mount writes in your experience how true is it that fuel injector cleaning will do much more good than just using detergent gas while fuel injector cleaning at the dealer is probably little more than them opening your gas tank dumping in bottle of fuel injector cleaner and sending you on your merry way poorer go to kmart and buy the cleaner yourself for this should not be the case if they are at all reputable fuel injector cleaning is done properly with can of injector cleaner solvent which is hooked up to the fuel system under high pressure the car is actually run on the solvent during the cleaning process the equipment to properly do this is pricey and generally not something the average home mechanic has the solvent itself is not very expensive and you could probably make up hose to fit your system and do it yourself but didn tell you that not many in tank cleaners are worth wasting your money on there has been discussion of these products on here from time to time and chevron techron not pro gard with techron is generally regarded as the best it is however bit more than bottle imho it will not substitute for proper injector cleaning if they are really crudded up you ll have to decide if the price is better deal than spending your time and or buying equipment to do it scott keller the agricultural group of monsanto company sekell bb1t monsanto com ka0wch packet ka0wch k0pfx mo usa na path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse network ucsd edu news cerf net iat holonet net datadim nill toulme from nill toulme datadim uu holonet net nill toulme newsgroups rec autos subject used taurus sho purchase message id uupcb datadim uu holonet net date apr gmt article datadim uupcb reply to nill toulme datadim uu holonet net nill toulme distribution world organization the data dimension pcboard norcross ga lines quoting jeffrey nucciarone nucci microwave gsfc nasa gov article c4g8hv cs4 skates gsfc nasa gov of in pertinent part jj am considering buying used taurus sho the car in jj question has miles took it for test drive the other day jj and few questions came up jj jj jj second is there anything should specifically look for in an jj sho of this vintage anything should specifically ask abt jj brakes cluthch etc noticed on the drive the clutch engagemen jj point seemed little high since all my other cars are auto tragics jj not sure abt this point had my foot firmly planted on the jj brake when started it up there was bit of pop in the pedal jj soon after the engine started this also occured on few bird sc jj test drove was this the abs self test brake rotors and the clutch are the main things there has been clutch replacement program you might check to see if the car is still eligible as it is change well worth making you can also swap the cruddy cable shifter for the newer rod shifter also change worth making but that ll cost you some my brakes usually do one wibble wobble on startup so that is probably normal didn know they had self test that interesting what kind of tires does the car have on it winqwk for good time dial on your sho path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu zaphod mps ohio state edu ub dsinc vu vlsi ee vill edu mobasser from mobasser vu vlsi ee vill edu bijan mobasseri newsgroups rec autos subject re dumbest automotive concepts of all time message id c52fre qf vu vlsi ee vill edu date apr gmt article vu vlsi c52fre qf references a7 rusnews w165w garlic sbs com bob1 cos c4wd8g zr constellation ecn uoknor edu organization villanova university lines my ford has vent windows operated by crank just like window only it opened out like normal vent window my f100 my dad bronco and pretty much every truck ve seen that worth riding in has vent windows does that mean that not young feller anymore james james callison microcomputer coordinator of oklahoma law center don understand the fascination with vent windows they create tremendous turbulence and noise that makes even simple connversation impossible at speeds above mph the current flow throuh ventilation if designed right are far more superior bijan path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu zaphod mps ohio state edu ub dsinc vu vlsi ee vill edu mobasser from mobasser vu vlsi ee vill edu bijan mobasseri newsgroups rec autos subject re dumbest automotive concepts of all time message id c52g2h uc vu vlsi ee vill edu date apr gmt article vu vlsi c52g2h uc references tcora b329 gator pica army mil c4vdjx au telebit com apr5 telxon mis telxon com organization villanova university lines not exactly dumb but who remebers the tachometer on the or firebird bulging out of the hood right in front of the driver neat place but love to know what the elemnts did to its internals after few years also does the speedomete pointer on many us cars have to be feet long bijan path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu cs utexas edu sdd hp com elroy jpl nasa gov nntp server caltech edu hacker from hacker cco caltech edu jonathan bruce hacker newsgroups rec autos subject re was re safety from how far can you see car message id psle4innkm2 gap caltech edu date apr gmt article gap psle4innkm2 references c4rvkm plato ds boeing com apr5 ole cdac com distribution na organization california institute of technology pasadena lines nntp posting host sandman caltech edu ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes these lit up cars make non illuminated things less visible like pedistrians and bikes hopefully we re not going to mandate drl for people and bikes too well drl are already mandatory for motorcycles jon hacker get the os march beta cd rom caltech pasadena ca for hacker tumbler ridge caltech edu call ibm os2 xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos vw path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse emory europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu jnielsen from jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu john nielsen newsgroups rec autos rec autos vw subject re top reasons why love cr not for the humor impaired message id apr6 magnus acs ohio state edu date apr gmt article magnus apr6 references apr06 metrics com apr6 magnus acs ohio state edu apr6 news cs brandeis edu sender news magnus acs ohio state edu distribution na organization the ohio state university lines nntp posting host magnusug magnus acs ohio state edu in article apr6 news cs brandeis edu andyh chaos cs brandeis edu andrew huang writes in article apr6 magnus acs ohio state edu jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu john nielsen writes in article apr06 metrics com tomh metrics com tom haapanen writes chints iscs nus sg writes here are another ten reasons why we should all love cr or the spectacle of macho real men who would never bother to read the magazine but are more than apt to criticize it but that the point we do read it or at least we did then we found that their recommendations were useless and uninformed then we write lists the cr flame war is so easy to start because they are so wrong and claim to be so right and so thorough andy ok if you are so right name few good examples that were brought up john john nielsen magnus consultant to you baldrick the renaissance was just something that happened to other people wasn it the black adder path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse emory europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net newsserver jvnc net nj nec com news from behanna phoenix syl nj nec com chris behanna newsgroups rec autos rec driving rec driving ca subject re car insurance help message id apr6 research nj nec com date apr gmt article research apr6 references c4x6yq l4 news claremont edu sender news research nj nec com organization nec systems laboratory inc lines in article c4x6yq l4 news claremont edu ochaine jarthur claremont edu ollie north chaine writes help my car insurance has been cancelled for the second time in row still haven gotten in touch with my agent from aaa because she out for the week but my mom said that got call saying that my insurance was going to be cancelled because of an accident not even fender bender that was never declared or anything besides the fact that have no idea how they found out about this the only other thing that could bug them is that have ticket but told them about it and they said that it wasn problem if go to another insurance know will end up paying more already shopped around for this one and can afford to pay for the insurance especially since still haven gotten the the two insuance companies are supposed to refund me just got new saturn sl2 and can afford the car payments and the insurance but bought the car having gotten quote from state farm which they later went back on please help me what legal rights do have can make state farm who originally gave me the quote give me that rate they made mistake after signed all the papers did not give any false evidence how can get my money back for the car if can pay for the insurance deperate ollie just went through this mess in new jersey still waiting for refund as well namely that the original company made mistake and left me in the lurch my recourse was through nj insurance dept office of consumer protection you should have similar office in your state make use of it good luck chris behanna dod fxwg wide glide jubilee red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb360t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx pending delivery agree with any of this anyway was raised by pack of wild corn dogs xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos vw path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu zaphod mps ohio state edu darwin sura net tulane invader finnegan from finnegan invader navo navy mil kenneth finnegan newsgroups rec autos rec autos vw subject re top reasons why love cr not for the humor impaired message id apr6 cs tulane edu date apr gmt article cs apr6 references apr01 engr washington edu apr3 nuscc nus sg apr06 metrics com apr6 magnus acs ohio state edu sender news cs tulane edu reply to finnegan navo navy mil distribution na organization grumman data systems lines nntp posting host nntpd invader navo navy mil in article apr6 magnus acs ohio state edu jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu john nielsen writes in article apr06 metrics com tomh metrics com tom haapanen writes chints iscs nus sg writes here are another ten reasons why we should all love cr car salesmen love their new car buying service and later on buying cr idealized family sedan and my number the spectacle of the religious fervour of the cr true believers or the spectacle of macho real men who would never bother to read the magazine but are more than apt to criticize it hey macho real man and do read it so can criticize it all want especially since pay for the publication they accept no outside advertising don you know john nielsen magnus consultant to you baldrick the renaissance was just something that happened to other people wasn it the black adder relying on consumer reports to pick your automobiles is like letting field stream select your living room furniture kenneth finnegan navo navy mil newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu caen news mtu edu destill from destill mtu edu still subject need help with wordperfect for windows message id may1 mtu edu organization michigan technological university date sat may gmt lines trying to install wordperfect for windows on my computer running sx25 meg ram and meg virtual mem setting for windows keep getting errors when try to run wp52 it tells me that don have enough memory or disk space since have megs free on the hd assuming that don have enough memory can anyone tell me what it takes to run this beast thanks stealth dave destill mtu edu if you are caught using this address internet will deny any responsibility of its use this mail will self destruct in seconds path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse news tek com shaman frip andrew from andrew frip wv tek com andrew klossner newsgroups rec autos subject re lh car order delay message id shaman wv tek com date apr gmt article shaman references apr2 skcla monsanto com sender news shaman wv tek com reply to andrew frip wv tek com organization tektronix color printers wilsonville oregon lines read an article in the chicago tribune stating that chrysler is having problems addressing the demand for the engine for it lh cars can anyone post how long they are waiting for an ordered car or how long they have been told they ll have to wait ordered mine december got it nine weeks later but the dealer said that new orders were being held up he didn expect to see any more engine lhs for awhile andrew klossner andrew frip wv tek com xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos soc women path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu linac att att out cbnewsj rdb1 from rdb1 cbnewsj cb att com ronald deblock jr newsgroups rec autos soc women subject re male female mystery re dumbest automotive concepts of all time message id apr6 cbnewsj cb att com date apr gmt article cbnewsj apr6 references apr1 iscnvx lmsc lockheed com pima2inn180 gap caltech edu pq8tkinnbek chester ksu ksu edu distribution na organization at lines in article pq8tkinnbek chester ksu ksu edu bets chester ksu ksu edu beth schwindt writes besides which where would men put all their crap if their wives didn carry purses beth my wife rarely carries purse so all of her crap ends up in my pockets ron deblock rdb1 homxb att com that number in rdb1 not letter at bell labs somerset nj usa xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos misc legal newsgroups rec autos misc legal path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu michal from michal cs cmu edu michal prussak subject illegal tint windows message id c52ywm bjc cs cmu edu sender news cs cmu edu usenet news system nntp posting host gs58 sp cs cmu edu organization school of computer science carnegie mellon date tue apr gmt lines know it long shot but maybe someone went through this and will have some comments to share the story is this bought car out of state and trying to get the safety inspection in pennsylvania the problem is that the car has aftermarket tint on all windows except the windshield the tint is rather weak and you can clearly see the inside of the car through the tint the inspection garage said that they won pass it unless get waiver from the state police so went to the state police the officer told me that aftermarket tint is illegal and can get waiver only for pre car or for medical reason asked him to show me the section of the vehicle code that says it illegal he showed it to me and the paraghaph said that you can have tint if you can see the inside of the car because of the tint when told him that you can in fact see the inside very well he shut the book and said it just illegal and in fact we can have someone give you ticket for it right now well won argue with that since the vehicle code says it ok as long as you can see through the tint like to keep it ll re read the vehicle code in the library also like to get some sort of paper from the police that says it ok so can get the inspection and so that won get in trouble for the tint later on also wouldn mind registering complaint against that officer he really pissed me off so does anyone have any experience getting that sort of paper from the police especially in pennsylvania does anyone have any experience registering complaint against an officer called the station later on today but they basically said there is no place where could register complaint against an officer and if do decide to keep the tint and get ticket anyway how much of chance do stand to succesfully appeal the ticket in court any comments about it will be welcome michal xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos vw path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse cs uoregon edu news uoregon edu news washington edu stalfos eliot from eliot stalfos engr washington edu eliot newsgroups rec autos rec autos vw subject re top reasons why love cr not for the humor impaired message id apr06 engr washington edu date apr gmt article engr apr06 references apr6 magnus acs ohio state edu apr6 news cs brandeis edu apr6 magnus acs ohio state edu distribution na organization clearer than blir lines nntp posting host in article apr6 magnus acs ohio state edu jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu john nielsen writes blah blah blah ok if you are so right name few good examples that were brought up let create new group rec autos cr is right no its not yes it is oh yeah my father can lick your father eliot path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu linac att cbnewsm jwl from jwl cbnewsm cb att com james lee iii newsgroups rec autos subject re new saturn argument message id apr6 cbnewsm cb att com date apr gmt article cbnewsm apr6 references phosp scs armory centerline com c50p1m noose ecn purdue edu distribution usa organization at lines in article c50p1m noose ecn purdue edu rjwade rainbow ecn purdue edu robert wade writes ok how about this to argue about why does the sl2 have much lower base price than the sc2 it over cheaper forget the exact amount doesn it cost more to have the extra doors windows locks motors etc that are in the door perhaps it is just marketing deal people want the door so they will pay the extra the sc1 sc2 has shorter wheel base than the sl sl1 sl2 sw1 sw2 just thought ithink your right though james lee bell labs murray hill room att conceps jwl xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt autos antique rec autos rec autos antique path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu usenet ins cwru edu gatech swrinde network ucsd edu sdd hp com hp cv flop engr orst edu reed henson news washington edu news uoregon edu dennisk cs uoregon edu from dennisk cs uoregon edu dennis kennedy newsgroups alt autos alt autos antique alt autos rodncustom alt hotrod or forsale orst forsale osu for sale pdx forsale pnw forsale ca forsale seattle forsale rec autos rec autos antique subject chevelle ss forsale date apr gmt organization university of oregon lines distribution usa message id pieu9 i5t pith uoregon edu nntp posting host fp2 cc uoregon edu don want to sell this car but need money for college chevelle super sport rebuilt four speed bolt positrac numbers match original miles no rust looks and runs excellent or best offer call dennis at or email dennisk cs uoregon edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu husc news harvard edu hsdndev wupost tulane ukma smith newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re eck vs rickey was re rickey whining again message id c4of8s ecv ms uky edu from smith ms uky edu brian smith date mar gmt expires sat may gmt references mar11 mnemosyne cs du edu c4esxe ly2 megatest com blue cis pitt edu distribution usa organization university of kentucky dept of math sciences lines in article blue cis pitt edu genetic pitt edu david tate writes ve read all of the followups to this but thought go back to the original article to make specific comments about the method jao megatest com john oswalt said he has obtained the play by play records in computer readable form for every major league baseball game for the past several years he devised an algorithm which call sum over situations and wrote computer program to calculate every major league players contribution using it it works like this look at every situation in every game in baseball season situation is determined by inning score where the baserunners are and how many outs there are for each situation count how many times the team eventually won the game that the situation occured in and divide by the number of times the situation came up to come up with value for that situation this was first done by george lindsey in the late early and reported in article an investigation of strategies in baseball author george lindsey journal operations research issue volume july august pp later pete palmer did the same thing using simulated seasons to generate larger set of data to avoid the kind of small sample anomalies that other people have worried about he reported this in the hidden game of baseball with john thorn gary skoog modified the method bit and did some work on what he called value added measure based on these situational values his were based directly on marginal runs though not on win probabilities these results as applied to the season were reported in one of the bill james baseball abstract books help me out here somebody for example situation might be inning score runner on second and no outs there were regular season major league games last year with the rockies and marlins there will be more this year say this situation came up in of those and the team ahead won of them then the value of this situation is description of method look at change in win probability based on the at bat plus any baserunning and credit debit the player by that amount each time he gets plate appearance now for each player sum up all his at bat and base running values for the season to obtain an overall value for that player obviously the sum of all players values for each game and for the season as whole will be that only because you always credit to the batter and to the pitcher there no validation involved ok there very big problem here that nobody has yet commented on you re adding probabilities and probabilities don add runs you can add the total team runs breaks down into how many runs joe contributed plus how many runs fred contributed etc but probabilities don work that way if bob increases his team chance of winning by in each of pas that does not mean that bob increased his team chance of winning by in fact it doesn mean anything because the units are screwy agree and disagree john is saying that the batters efforts will result in more wins then losses while you are probably correct that does not mean more wins then losses it means something would rather have player who increased my teams chances of winning by in each of pas then would player who increased my chances of winning by in each of pas thus there appears to me to be an obvious positive association between john statistic and winning games thus before you disregard this stat it appears to me that further study must go into what sort of relationship there is consider an example bob hits out solo hr in the bottom of the first about on your scale he does the same thing again in the fourth with the score tied for another and again in the seventh with the score tied for another and finally in the ninth to win the game by score of for value of bob hit solo hr in plate appearances and was credited by your method with but what does that mean was bob responsible for the win certainly not the defense is always responsible if you include pitching in that and bob wasn pitching in fact bob was only of the offense which is lot but not even close to furthermore what about the other team runs say they all came on solo hr by fred then fred was hitting hr to tie up the game which are just as valuable as hr to take the lead see lindsey and fred will himself have accrued good rating or so so fred and bob combined have amassed of win in one game there clearly problem here the only problem here is an insistance that these number mean exactly how many wins the team has first we are using averages over many seasons and applying them to one game second remember some players performance take away from the chance of you winning that is player who gets an out gets negative probability in most cases thus not sure in any given game when you add up all the numbers for team who won that they will add up to in that game sometimes they will add up to more then one sometime less than one also the pitchers bad performances giving up runs may have given them large negative percentage for that game also any batter that pulled an night would give large negatives greg thinking about the right things but his intuition is off the mark closers are enormously important the total number of runs value is outweighed by when they come or are prevented from comming the doubling which greg allows is not enough in another article proposed test of this we can predict team won lost record quite accurately by looking at how many runs total they score and allow without regard to when those runs score in the game if late runs are really more important than early runs then looking only at late runs should lead to better predictor right no but really only because you have smaller sample size would think however that the number of runs you score in the first inning would be just as good as prediction as how many runs you score in the last inning and realize something else closer usually comes in in close situation not blow out it is hard to argue that any runs that closer gives up in game have equal importance to those given up in the first inning look closer giving up runs often means team will lose many games on the other hand starter who gives up runs often still leaves his team chance to win the offence has many more outs to do something about but am not saying all late inning situations are equally important either if am down runs in the ninth it really does not matter how many runs my pitcher gives up in the ninth here another thought experiment apply this method to basketball what you find is that points scored in the first half of the game have almost exactly no value because no lead is safe with an entire half yet to play furthermore the sub in off the bench who sinks the winning free throws with no time on the clock gets for the game while the star forward who scored points in the first half before spraining his ankle gets zero does this make sense no but why would you assume that the teams probability of winning would be before the possesion in which the free throws were made look if you are down point with seconds left there is fairly high probability that you will win the game if you are in possesion of the ball and do not forget that somebody elses missed shots turnovers fouls bad defense etc caused negative chance that the team would win from reading all of the discussion on this statistic feel that those who critisize it to certain extent are doing so out of an agenda at first look this statistic valadates clutchness but it really does not cluthness revolves around the idea that certain players in crucial situation elevate their performance and others performance goes down ve never seen convincing proof that this really happens so if you assume there is no clutchness then that means that except for lot of noice this statistic has positive association to player performance there is way to get rid of the noice if you do not believe in clutchness certainly we could find out what the average value of home run is for example we may find for instance that home run increases your chance of winning by on average while strikeout decreases your chance of winning by bet if this were done we would find that this statistic was just as good as other statistics we have for predicting wins and losses how do we evaluate relief pitchers say john and sam have the exact same pitching statistics runs earned runs bb etc both had exceptional numbers john however only pitched in closer situations while sam was mop up man who was more valuble to their team probably john who was the better pitcher they were probably about the same brian smith path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net newsserver jvnc net howland reston ans net noc near net uunet newsstand cit cornell edu vax5 cit cornell edu k8gj from k8gj vax5 cit cornell edu newsgroups rec autos subject impreza altima or what message id apr5 vax5 cit cornell edu date apr est distribution rec organization cornell university lines friend of mine is cnsidering buying new car and is considering the subaru impreza or the nissan altima right now which of these two cars would you recommend we definately want an airbag and abs and room for tall people and long legs if you have other suggestions for cars under after dealing be interested in you opinions as well please send replies to sem1 postoffice mail cornell edu no tthis address thanks scott newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu agate dog ee lbl gov network ucsd edu sdd hp com decwrl pa dec com engage pko dec com stargl enet dec com balsamo from balsamo stargl enet dec com antonio balsamo save the wails subject re advise needed in buying automobile message id apr6 engage pko dec com sender newsdaemon engage pko dec com usenet news daemon reply to balsamo stargl enet dec com antonio balsamo save the wails organization digital equipment corporation references c4u9zo x2 mentor cc purdue edu date tue apr gmt lines from thwang mentor cc purdue edu tommy hwang subject advise needed in buying automobile am in search of dependable automobile to purchase below are its requirements v6 or above most of the cars you mentioned are below smaller than v6 engine tony name antonio balsamo company digital equipment corp shrewsbury mass work mail balsamo stargl enet dec com newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net haven umd edu purdue mentor cc purdue edu noose ecn purdue edu rainbow ecn purdue edu rjwade from rjwade rainbow ecn purdue edu robert wade subject re integra gsr message id c52fza gnt noose ecn purdue edu sender news noose ecn purdue edu usenet news organization purdue university engineering computer network references apr5 ns1 cc lehigh edu date tue apr gmt lines quad reliable yeah what your definition of reliable if that reliable then its safe to say that integra engines in general are near perfect not to mention hell of alot smoother and quieter balance shafts the acura has the engine wins the reliablity contest hands down you can rev that car all day everyday and you ll never blow hose or crack the block or anything else speak from expierence not saying the quad is bad engine but don highlight reliability when you comparing it to acura engine and while the integra costs alot more it is couple of things blowing hose doesn speak of engine reliability and while it is true that quad4 have problem with head gasket leaks that was design flaw in the gasket and has been corrected also know pontiac is replacing head gaskets that leak for free for year miles other than that have found my quad4 to be completely solid and the direct ignition system means no wires rotor rotor cap to ever deal with also hydrolic lifters mean no valve adjustments ever not badmouthing the integra engine just think you are going overboard on slamming the quad4 you are quite correct that the integra engine is quieter although would not say smoother my quad4 loves to rev especially at the high end do you have any evidence of blocks cracking on quad4s have not heard of this xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp unix misc comp os ms windows misc comp os os2 advocacy newsgroups comp unix misc comp os ms windows misc comp os os2 advocacy path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet leviticus daily mfraioli from mfraioli grebyn com marc fraioli subject re some info the dos msw meltdown is progressing nicely message id may1 grebyn com organization grebyn timesharing references rqn1f n3k almaak usc edu messinac6b7zl iho netcom com date sat may gmt lines in article messinac6b7zl iho netcom com messina netcom com tony porczyk writes ajayshah almaak usc edu ajay shah writes the preferred applications development platform according to of the fortune corporations survey by sentry market research survey unix mainframe dos msw development of what in house apps maybe but certainly not apps to be sold on an open market statistics like that are laughable because they may simply mean that there are not enough shrink wrapped usable apps for unix and they have to be developed disproportionately often as compared to the installed unix base actually you might be surprised to find that not everyone who develops mainstream dos and windows apps develops them under dos or windows pc week recently printed rumor that microsoft excel development group does its development under os another trade rag did an article recently about group doing windows development on sun sparcstations with softpc to test out their work sco unix is and has been reasonably popular development platform for dos windows and even os apps dos and windows are simply not robust or stable enough for development work imho and apparently others agree marc fraioli mfraioli grebyn com so minimalist newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net haven umd edu purdue mentor cc purdue edu noose ecn purdue edu rainbow ecn purdue edu rjwade from rjwade rainbow ecn purdue edu robert wade subject re most bang for between and message id c52h6k gwm noose ecn purdue edu sender news noose ecn purdue edu usenet news organization purdue university engineering computer network references ba7c8b0 cpkjp vm cc latech edu oasys dt navy mil distribution na date tue apr gmt lines in article oasys dt navy mil tobias oasys dt navy mil steve tobias writes in rec autos cpkjp vm cc latech edu kevin parker writes like to get some feedback on car with most bang for the buck in the to price range looking for car with enough civility to be driven every day or even on long trips but when hit the gas want to feel some acceleration handling is important also as are reliability and pretty low maintenance costs stylish appearance is nice but don want car that is all show and not much go even though many of the imports are fast don really want turbo and never have cared for the song sung by four clyinder prefer v6 or v8 for the engine if you have any suggestions kevin parker there only one car that really fits your needs it spelled liter mustang not sorry he said cvility long trips reliability and low maintenance cost newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel news udel edu darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet dove starchild ncsl nist gov keys from keys starchild ncsl nist gov lawrence keys subject re necessity of fuel injector cleaning by dealership message id c52jk2 cpi dove nist gov sender news dove nist gov organization national institute of standards technology references apr2 cbnewsl cb att com apr6 acd4 acd com date tue apr gmt lines in article apr6 acd4 acd com jwg sedv1 acd com jim grey writes in article apr2 cbnewsl cb att com prm cbnewsl cb att com paul mount writes in your experience how true is it that fuel injector cleaning will do much more good than just using detergent gas while agree that clogged fuel injector would darken my day how clogged do they get and is good price or can do it myself by buying can of what and doing what fuel injector cleaning at the dealer is probably little more than them opening your gas tank dumping in bottle of fuel injector cleaner and sending you on your merry way poorer go to kmart and buy the cleaner yourself for personally wouldn use the product from kmart knew about this previously but this past weekend on pbs motorweek pat goss their resident tech type discussed these products and recommends not using them the non isopropyl alcohlo based injector cleaners supposedly only the isopropyl based cleaners actually remove moisture from your fuel tank as they clean your injectors and although the others ethyl based do clean injectors they also cause rubber components in the fuel system to deteriorate and they don mix well with water to help remove it from the fuel system use product recommended by vw called by bg products inc it cost more about but it is supposed to do the job without the potential harmful side effects and its results are supposed to last from to miles have also used chevron techtrolene sp can say that have noticed any difference using either since only use these product as preventative maintenance item just because you dealer sez you need it don mean it necessarily so be suspicious jim grey jwg acd4 acd com larry keys csmes ncsl nist gov oo fahrvergnugen forever the fact that need to explain it to you indicates that you probably wouldn understand anyway newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net newsserver jvnc net howland reston ans net noc near net uunet pipex bnr co uk bmdhh130 bcars267 bnr ca dwjz from dwjz bnr ca doug zolmer subject re svx oil change message id apr6 bnr ca sender news bnr ca usenet nntp posting host bcarh28f reply to dwjz bnr ca doug zolmer organization bell northern research ltd references c518f0 i7 undergrad math uwaterloo ca distribution na date tue apr gmt lines in article c518f0 i7 undergrad math uwaterloo ca swdwan napier uwaterloo ca donald wan writes my friend brought subaru svx recently had drove it for couples times and think its great car esp on snow however when she took it to local subaru dealer for oil change the bill came out to be about dollars the dealer told us it is because to change the oil filter on svx it is necessary to disassemble metal cover under the engine and that took an hour of labour at first we think we are being ripped off so she phone to dealer in toronto but found out the they are charging roughly the same price so is there any svx owner out there that has the same problem and if the oil change story is true then the engineer of subaru looks pretty stubid to me by the way the car looks great labour prices for car service are very expensive in toronto compared to other parts of ontario for example there are places in ottawa that still charge only hour ve seen couple of places charging hour the cheapest ve heard in toronto is hour swd wan doug zolmer internet dwjz bnr ca disclaimer my opinions only bell northern research ltd ottawa ontario canada conform moooo xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos vw rec autos rec autos tech newsgroups rec autos vw rec autos rec autos tech path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu ux1 cso uiuc edu news cso uiuc edu uxa cso uiuc edu mwbg9715 from mwbg9715 uxa cso uiuc edu mark wayne blunier subject re w30 w40 or w50 date tue apr gmt message id c52lwv mxe news cso uiuc edu references c09615bt wuvmd wustl edu zowie apr5215616 daedalus stanford edu sender usenet news cso uiuc edu net noise owner organization university of illinois at urbana lines zowie daedalus stanford edu craig powderkeg deforest writes if you re planning on making long drives the w50 is probably fine esp in the summer in your w40 car but if you re making short drives stick to the w40 several years ago gm was having trouble with the rings sticking on the diesel they traced cause to the use of oil they would not honor warranty work if was used if my memory serves me or was ok though mark newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov lambda msfc nasa gov newswatcher user from celeste express freedom msfc nasa gov celeste subject re male female mystery re dumbest automotive concepts of all time message id celeste followup to rec autos soc women sender news lambda msfc nasa gov newsmaster nntp posting host organization aegis references otoceinng47 shelley washington edu p9u3sinnc31 mojo eng umd edu apr1 iscnvx lmsc lockheed com pima2inn180 gap caltech edu date tue apr gmt lines in article pima2inn180 gap caltech edu wen king cs caltech edu wen king su wrote in article apr1 iscnvx lmsc lockheed com sharen iscnvx lmsc lockheed com sharen rund writes apparently you re not woman my husband hates the auto door locks features but forgets that besides families with children woman feels safer in car that locks easily in addition to watching around checking out if anyone near me when get to my car never park in secluded spot etc have my keys ready to open the door so not fumbling in my purse looking for them this has me thinking is there biological reason why women can put their keys in their pants pockets like men do have two pockets on the back of each of my pants put my keys in one and wallent in another many of the pockets even have botton on them so can close them securely everything is that much simpler for me why can women do the same is is biological ie not enough room for bigger bottom plus keys and wallet or is it the way they are raised by the parents women pants rarely have pockets and most when they do are too shallow to use is very important for woman to have her keys in her hand when she goes from building to car it is protect herself from would be assilants by broadcasting that this is someone who as definite place of safty ie locked car puting keys and walet looks ugly it breaks the lines and makes you rear look wide as cows also to have the habits that work for any clothing situation the pruse functions no mater what you are wearing even nude or bikni women suit coat is lucky to have pockets on the outside none on the inside have men coats that have as much as pockets this is definitally not fair as one that wears both men and women clothes can tell you women clothes have few if any funtional pockets when dressed as man put my wallet on my inside coat pocket and my keys in coat outside pocket it is much more covenent than the pants pockets and looks better having car that unlocks quickly and locks back fast is paramout to woman safty men don see this as problem woman is aware of this every time she goes out image some red necks yelling at you we are going to fuck you and the out weight you by lbs and have inches in hight on you if you want to find out why women does something live as one celeste xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos driving rec autos sport rec autos vw rec autos tech newsgroups rec autos rec autos driving rec autos sport rec autos vw rec autos tech path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu caen msuinfo uchinews oddjob uchicago edu kurt from kurt oddjob uchicago edu kurt henriksen subject brake rotors cross drilling message id apr6 midway uchicago edu sender news uchinews uchicago edu news system organization university of chicago astronomy and astrophysics distribution na date tue apr gmt lines newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel news udel edu darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet psinntp balltown welty from welty cabot balltown cma com richard welty subject re saturn pricing policy message id apr6 cabot balltown cma com organization new york state institute for sebastian cabot studies references c4oxwp kkm news cso uiuc edu c4vir5 l3r shuksan ds boeing com apr5 cs brown edu date tue apr gmt lines in article apr5 cs brown edu cs012055 cs brown edu hok chung tsang writes moreover if saturn really does reduce the dealer profit margin by then their cars will be even better deals say if the price of saturn was already below market average for the class of cars then after they reduce the dealer profit it would be below market average it will attract even more people to buy saturns because it would save them money force the competitors to lower their prices to survive but what is saturn motivation here they re already selling every car they make with multiple shifts in the plant given this what possible motivation could they have to lower prices cheers richard richard welty welty cabot balltown cma com nothing good has ever been reported about the full rotation of race car about either its pitch or roll axis carroll smith path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu wupost eclnews cec1 mps1 from mps1 cec1 wustl edu mihir pramod shah newsgroups rec autos subject re new saturn argument message id apr6 wuecl wustl edu date apr gmt article wuecl apr6 references apr2 unvax union edu ppfn2 frg armory centerline com c50p1m noose ecn purdue edu sender usenet wuecl wustl edu news administrator organization washington university st louis mo lines nntp posting host cec1 in article c50p1m noose ecn purdue edu rjwade rainbow ecn purdue edu robert wade writes ok how about this to argue about why does the sl2 have much lower base price than the sc2 it over cheaper forget the exact amount doesn it cost more to have the extra doors windows locks motors etc that are in the door perhaps it is just marketing deal people want the door so they will pay the extra ok here what understand the sl sl1 sl2 sw1 sw2 was meant to compete with the following cars honda civic toyota tercel sl sl1 toyota corolla sl1 sl2 nissan sentra mazda protoge subaru loyale impreza isuzu stylus geo prizm ford escort mercury tracer mistubishi mirage plymouth dodge colt their core competition is the civic corolla and sentra most of the other models are in the same class but aren the first cars you would think of threw in the escort tracer because it has good amount of japanese technology and has similar reliability stats didn include domestic small cars such as the cavalier sunbird shadow sundance tempo and topaz since think saturn is going after cars that have at least some degree of japanese roots the sc1 sc2 was meant to compete against the following cars toyota paseo honda civic si civic coupes del sol si nissan nx1600 nx2000 mazda mx isuzu impulse geo storm ford escort gt if you look at the prices of these cars they re more expensive than they re door counterparts the is good reason for this it is more upscale and trend driven market even though many of these models are based on sedan platforms their interior etc is good enough to warrant slightly higher prices here are some of the platform derivations can think of tercel paseo sentra nx1600 nx2000 civic del sol mx not sure on this one stylus impulse storm to illustrate tercel starts at around while the paseo starts at around even door tercel will cost less than door paseo now you might be saying that the tercel doesn offer the power that some doors offer what mean is that there is no dr tercel with comparable powerplant as its sport coupe derivative let take another example the isuzu stylus xs and impulse xs storm gsi both have the same powerplants hp engine but the smaller dr coupes are generally more expensive again this is because the two door sport coupe market is more fashion oriented and trend setting segment people are willing to pay more money for this type of car in short even though the sc1 sc2 may be smaller hence less car it market orientation dictates slightly higher price than its mechanically equivalent sedan sl1 sl2 version hope this clears things up bit mihir shah path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu husc news harvard edu hsdndev howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu po cwru edu aas7 newsgroups rec autos subject apology was re did us drive on the left message id psq3h qr usenet ins cwru edu from aas7 po cwru edu andrew spencer date apr gmt reply to aas7 po cwru edu andrew spencer references c50k8c gla hpwin052 uksr hp com yfkbjqs00uh e9tfo andrew cmu edu organization case western reserve university cleveland oh usa nntp posting host slc5 ins cwru edu lines in previous article dh3q andrew cmu edu daniel holbrook says guessing but believe in the twenties we probably drove mostly down cattle trails and in wagon ruts am fairly sure that placement of the steering wheel was pretty much arbitrary to the company at that time by the there was very active good roads movement which had its origins actually in the during the bicycle craze picked up steam in the teens witness the linclon highway association or so and the us highway support act real name something different in that first pledged federal aid to states and counties to build decent roads also the experience of widespread use of trucks for domestic transport during ww convinced the government that good raods were crucial to our national defense anyway by the there were plenty of good roads at least around urban areas and they were rapidly expanding into the countryside this was the era after all of the first auto touring fad the motel the auto camp ground etc two good books on the subject spring to mind warren belasco america on the road title may not be exact author is and another called the devil wagon in god country author forget also any of john flink or john bell rae auto histories sorry as have never heard of any of this guess they don think it important enough for classroom and was going on what ve seen in pics some movies real nice scource there huh just always recall thinking that good roads of asphalt didn come around til the interstate hiway act or whatever they called it and that wood and cobblestone roads were fairly rare up through the depression except in overpopulated places like england and us cities obviously netwisdom says am wrong as to placement of the steering wheel being arbitrary by the early teens there were virtually no american cars that did not have the wheel on the left in the early days cars had the wheel on the left on the right and even in the middle as well as sometimes having tiller instead of wheel this was standardized fairly early on though don know why knew it was almost always done but knew of no reason that it might not be done the other way by desoto for their car seems like they had some other deviations from the norm too at times dan dh3q andrew cmu edu carnegie mellon university applied history world history strides on from catastrophe to catastrophe whether we can comprehend and prove it or not oswald spengler thanx for corrrecting me and again aplogize for harebraned post drew path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse network ucsd edu sdd hp com ux1 cso uiuc edu news cso uiuc edu uxa cso uiuc edu cka52397 from cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu carolinafan uiuc newsgroups rec autos subject re most bang for between and message id c5345n dgf news cso uiuc edu date apr gmt article news c5345n dgf references ba7c8b0 cpkjp vm cc latech edu oasys dt navy mil c52h6k gwm noose ecn purdue edu apr6 progress com c52ycx fh murdoch acc virginia edu sender usenet news cso uiuc edu net noise owner distribution na organization university of illinois at urbana lines jmh hopper virginia edu jeffrey hoffmeister writes in article apr6 progress com damelio progress com stephen amelio writes rjwade rainbow ecn purdue edu robert wade writes there only one car that really fits your needs it spelled liter mustang sports car butm my mothers gt was considered sports car still can quite figure that out since when do plastic add ons make car sports car jeff we re talking about insurance agents from bumf illinois st farm is hq ed in bloomington what the hell do they know about cars both are sports cars chintan amin the university of illinois urbana champaign mail llama uiuc edu because he was human because he had goodness because he was moral they called him insane peart cinderella man xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech emory sol ctr columbia edu usenet ucs indiana edu news cs indiana edu babbage ece uc edu uceng uc edu ant occ uc edu bferrell from bferrell ant occ uc edu brett ferrell subject re challenge to microsoft supporters message id c6d616 uceng uc edu sender root uceng uc edu system privileged account nntp posting host ant occ uc edu organization university of cincinnati references apr30 samba oit unc edu c6bgzv mk uceng uc edu may1 hubcap clemson edu date sat may gmt lines in article may1 hubcap clemson edu ludes hubcap clemson edu larry ludes ludwig writes stuff deleted about microsoft bferrell ant occ uc edu brett ferrell writes if you think that windows is useable you must not use it much windows version of crash protection is wearing helmet while computing the arir air bag is an expensive add on brett you must of read too many os advertisements crash protection is such marketing gimick it isn funny out of months of using windows on my new machine ve only had it crash once and don have run of the mill configuration microsoft is not leader in innovation but they certainly know how to build better mousetrap now what wrong with that larry ludes ludwig it always taken me twice to get clemson university compsci undergrad it right you never heard of the ludes hubcap clemson edu apple ludes clemson clemson edu steve jobs it does sound funny will admit but for me it is true windows crashed on all of the time and from what have read in pc mag this is not the exception os gives each windows app vdm and they can touch each other or generally anything they aren supposed to have if windows works for you then great maybe this is why some people don see why os is the os of choice if windows doesn crash on you and you don mind waiting on each task and not being able to adress your memory better than dos some of the key reasons for using os are gone probably would still use it but it would be more of an even fight brett brett sherron ferrell email bferrell uceng uc edu of cincy catch the cats college of engineering if you can friends don let friends do windows wittism of th week think that it wrong to believe in an ism you should believe in yourself ferrish bueller path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse decwrl access usask ca kakwa ucs ualberta ca alberta adec23 mark from mark ve6mgs ampr org mark salyzyn newsgroups rec autos subject re do it yourself front end alignment possible message id apr6 ve6mgs ampr org date apr gmt article ve6mgs apr6 references bu edu apr1 ringer cs utsa edu distribution na organization adec systems inc lines davidd lonestar utsa edu david de leon writes in article bu edu selick csa bu edu steven selick writes ve got an plymouth colt that like to do front end alignment on is it possible to do without all of the fancy schmancy gadgets the pros have how steve no no no no if you do so you are putting the lives of others on the road at consider able risk why do you think mechanics are ase certified anyway you put it you need those fancy scmancy gadgets awww right you want all the home mechanics lined up against wall and shot eh bull pucky you chicken read the service manual and get your head out of the sand certainly there are tools for the job that are cheaper than an alignment rack that do the job as competently albeit not as swiftly if not more accurate due to the natural pride an owner mechanic places on his work you can do an acceptable job of aligning car using simple tools and some imaginative work that would never have the effect of endangering anyones life the worst that happens is that your tires wear oddly well you could have the wheels aiming totally pigeon toed and not be able to steer the car raise your hands those that think their vision is so poor that they would screw up this badly bet you are one of those people that feels that honing cylinder wall with sand paper will kill millions of people it aint magic go take the certification course and look at the people that have never learned to add in their whole life that are taking the certification btw am disgusted at the colt and some of the other chrysler offerings because they go out of alignment if you sneaze at them my chrysler laser similar to the daytona reskinned colt needed realignment every months bolt good grade x4 to each wheel using carefully welded spacer jig measure toe in adjust to manufacturer specs camber bit more difficult to adjust and measure used micrometer to measure the space between the rim and funky bent up pipe that could be placed on upper and lower portions of the rim on the inside of wheel hard to explain this same tool could be used instead of the x4s had made these tools up right after the last alignment done professionally so had reference that the original poster might not ciao mark path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu utnut torn newsserver cs uwindsor ca jobin from jobin server uwindsor ca scarecrow newsgroups rec autos subject re dumbest automotive concepts of all time message id newsserver cs uwindsor ca date apr gmt references apr2 ns1 cc lehigh edu c4wcrc vg constellation ecn uoknor edu sender news server uwindsor ca organization university of windsor ontario canada lines seningen maserati ross com mike seningen mph speedos esp the electronic ones the digital dash of the cougars with the large analog clock in the middle of the dash everything was digital except the stinking clock the funny thing about the digital dash bird with the mph speedo limit was that if you pressed the button to convert to kilometers it would read all the way up to kph at this point the stock anemic would get short of breath this of course was equivalent to about mph hehe bet really coulda confused this thing if toyed with the engine and rolled the stupid thing the digits were limited to ve gotta agree with ya on the analog clock digital dash though my girlfriend had turbocoupe with digital clock and analog gauges radio go figure usenet constellation ecn uoknor edu usenet administrator love the keyless entry on my bird it great for those times that had to stop to put air in my tires could get out and lock the door with the engine running while ran around to air up the tire it also had great feature on my bird could pull the key out and leave the ignition on this scared the hell out of me the first time it happened but kinda grew to like it musta been bad key copy or something mark novakovic there is no god up in the sky tonight no sign of heaven anywhere in sight nin jesus loves ya blow me in tribute to my former area supervisor jim bonneau and the infamous bonneau math demoted not departed ministry xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc alt fan bill gates path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu andrew cmu edu ks3l from kenton shaver ks3l andrew cmu edu newsgroups comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc alt fan bill gates subject re challenge to microsoft supporters date sat may organization sponsored account systems group carnegie mellon pittsburgh pa lines message id fshm7w00wb60e7may andrew cmu edu references apr30 samba oit unc edu c6bgzv mk uceng uc edu may1 hubcap clemson edu nntp posting host andrew cmu edu in reply to may1 hubcap clemson edu ludes hubcap clemson edu larry ludes ludwig writes stuff deleted about microsoft bferrell ant occ uc edu brett ferrell writes if you think that windows is useable you must not use it much windows version of crash protection is wearing helmet while computing the arir air bag is an expensive add on brett you must of read too many os advertisements crash protection is such marketing gimick it isn funny out of months of using windows on my new machine ve only had it crash once and don have run of the mill configuration wow what did you use it for single tasked word processing have files loaded right now and mb virtual machine mb of ram my friend down the street gripes that he can even format floppy in the background many unix people love os because they are used to multi tasking systems microsoft is not leader in innovation but they certainly know how to build better mousetrap now what wrong with that too bad they hold gun to the mouse piper while they throw mice at their new trap trying to get it to work kenton cmu edu os fixes broken windows xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os ms windows misc comp windows ms path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu ames olivea sgigate sgi fido odin sgihub sgitokyo exagw nkkgw ascgw ascwide sh wide wnoc tyo news news tokyo ac jp yayoi yuki from yuki is tokyo ac jp ito takayuki newsgroups comp os ms windows misc comp windows ms subject re what does the bmp format mean message id may1 cc tokyo ac jp date may gmt references robertsa unix2 tcd ie sender news cc tokyo ac jp usenet news system organization department of infomation science faculty of science university of tokyo japan lines in reply to robertsa unix2 tcd ie message of tue apr gmt nntp posting host tje12 is tokyo ac jp in article robertsa unix2 tcd ie robertsa unix2 tcd ie andrew roberts writes what exactly does the windows bitmap format look like mean how is the data stored width height no of colours bitmap data couldn find anything in ths user manual is there any other reference material which would give me this information from thomas sunshine kodak com thomas kinsman newsgroups comp os ms windows programmer misc alt binaries pictures utilities subject dib bmp creation guide as requested keywords dib bmp bitmaps file formats message id dec23 kodak kodak com date dec gmt sender news kodak kodak com organization precambiran electronics rochester ny lines xref cradle titech comp os ms windows programmer misc guide to creation of dib images thomas kinsman precambrian electronics falstaff rd rochester ny thomask kodak com copyright march abstract the format of images created for use by ms windows applications is documented in the ms windows programmer reference guide this guide is intended as clearify some wording of the specifications and to put forth recommendation among the various alternatives please send updates corrections suggestions and revisions to me please thank me for writing this on my own time by keeping my name with the document thank you for your respect this document copyright by thomas kinsman if desired postscript version of this document is available this information is free you get more than what you pay for don sue me if wrong overview the dib image file format is intended to be device independent bitmap file format what microsoft means by device independent is unclear to me four pixel resolutions are supported bit bit bit and bit pixels these images were intended for use on dos ibm or little endian systems if you are creating them on another architecture you will have to byte swap all short and long integer values by convention dib images end in the extension bmp this is because march they are super set of earlier bitmap image files consequently you will sometimes hear dib files referred to as bmp files since dib images files are super set there are three flavors of dib images dos dib images these are the recommended convention and the form which will describe how to create they are intended for applications running under ms windows in dos environment os dib images my understanding is that these are the flavor of dib images that were used by the presentation manager old style bitmap images march differences between flavors the dos dib images consist of bitmapfileheader file header which identifies the file as dib file this header also gives the total size of the image file and the offset to the image data bitmapinfoheader image header which specifies the image attributes an optional palette of colors used by the image if it exists this may contain or entries each entry is windows rgbquad structure the image data itself the os dib images consist of the same bitmapfileheader file header which identifies the file as dib file this header also gives the total size of the image file and the offset to the image data bitmapcoreheader image header which specifies the image attributes an optional palette of colors used by the image again if this exists it may contain or entries each entry is windows rgbtriple structure the image data itself the old style image bitmap consists of either bitmapinfoheader or bitmapcoreheader which header type is determined by the first long integer dword value an optional color palette this palette may be composed of either windows rgbquad structures if the header was bitmapinfoheader or windows rgbtriple structures if the header was bitmapcoreheader the image data itself creating dib image files creating dos dib image file consists of several straight forward steps the headers need to be created and then written to the file these header structures are defined in the ms windows windows include file palette information needs to be stored for images that are not bit images the five general steps are filling in the bitmapfileheader and the bitmapinfoheader structures the basic image information if the image is bit bit or an bit image creating the color palette of rgbquads calculating the total file size and putting this information in march the bfsize field of the bitmapfileheader calculating the offset to the image data from the start of the file and putting this in the bfoffbits field of the bitmapfileheader writing to the file the bitmapfileheader the bitmapinfoheader the color palette and the image data in that order the following sections describe structures in terms of microsoft type defined keywords the following table describes these keywords for those not familiar with microsoft type defined keywords in microsoft typedef meaning byte unsigned character word two byte unsigned integer dword four byte unsigned integer march the bitmapfileheader this structure is defined in windows as typedef struct tagbitmapfileheader word bftype dword bfsize word bfreserved1 word bfreserved2 dword bfoffbits bitmapfileheader the bftype field is the two ascii characters and this serves to identify the file as dib image file on an intel byte ordered machine ibm or compatible this constant can be formed in as the quantity x4d42 on an intel system the bfsize field is the total size of the file for our purposes this field is equal to the size of the bitmapfileheader plus the size of the bitmapinfoheader plus the number of entries in the color palette times the size of rgbquad plus the number of bytes of image data if the image data is being written out in an uncompressed form this value can be calculated ahead of time otherwise this field needs to be filled in later both the bfreserved1 and the bfreserved2 fields are always set to zero the bfoffbits field is set to the offset to the start of the image data from the start of the file for our purposes this field should be set to the size of the bitmapfileheader plus the size of the bitmapinfoheader plus the number of entries in the color palette times the size of rgbquad this works out because the image data is written write after the color palette if one exists march the bitmapinfoheader this structure is defined in windows as typedef struct tagbitmapinfoheader dword bisize dword biwidth dword biheight word biplanes word bibitcount dword bicompression dword bisizeimage dword bixpelspermeter dword biypelspermeter dword biclrused dword biclrimportant bitmapinfoheader the bisize field is set to the size of the bitmapinfoheader structure itself when reading the image file this value is what is used to determine that the image contains bitmapinfoheader and not bitmapcoreheader the biwidth field is the width of the image in image pixels the biheight field is the height of the image in image lines the biplanes field should always be set to this data is written out as if there was one color plane the bibitcount field is the bit depth of the image this must be either or depending on the bit depth of the image data the bicompression field tells how the image data is compressed if it is compressed dib images support two forms of run length encoding however have never seen any images which use it and don know yet how it works set this field to zero long zero or to indicate that the data is not compressed all subsequent fields of the bitmapinfoheader structure may be set to zero requirement of the interpretting software that it be able to compute these fields as necessary from the previous information the field which you might want to explicitly specify might be biclrused for bit and bit images this field indicates that not all of the possible color entries are used and that the image contains biclrused colors if you are using only colors with an bit image then you may only want to save of the possible palette entries generally set this field to zero march color palettes each entry of color palette is rgbquad structure the rgbquad structure is defined in the windows include file as typedef struct tagrgbquad byte rgbblue byte rgbgreen byte rgbred byte rgbreserved rgbquad the rgbreserved field is always zero for each color used the amount of blue green and red are filled into the structure and the structure is written to the file value of zero in the rgbblue rgbgreen or rgbred fields indicates that that particular component does not contribute to the color composition value of in any of these fields indicates that the component contributes fully to the color composition image data there are three surprises about the ordering of image data in dib image file the creator of this format was determined to be creative and certainly was within the image data each line written out is padded to the next four byte quantity so if you had an bit image which was only one pixel wide you still have to write out four bytes for every image line the number of bytes per line can be calculated as bytes per line width in pix bit depth or in terms of the fields of the bitmapinfoheader structure bytes per line biwidth bibitcount when writing out your image data you must write it out bottom line first the bottom line of the image as you would look at it on the screen is the first line of image data in the file for bit bit and bit images information is written as you would expect one bit images are padded eight pixels to byte four bit images are padded two pixels to byte eight bit images are written one pixel per byte twenty four bit images are written three bytes per pixel however for bit images the information must be written out in the order blue green red while most image file formats write data out in march an rgb ordering dib image file writes the data out in an bgr ordering summary this should provide enough information to create dib images from applications such as scanners or for image exporting routines if you find out any more about dib images please pass the information on to me so that can modify this document accordingly march thomas kinsman rochester ny thomas acadia kodak com practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty anon ito takayuki yuki is tokyo ac jp senior department of infomation science faculty of science university of tokyo japan xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os ms windows apps comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu swrinde network ucsd edu munnari oz au goanna gtj from gtj goanna cs rmit oz au glenn jayaputera newsgroups comp os ms windows apps comp os ms windows misc subject telemate windows help message id goanna cs rmit oz au date may gmt followup to poster organization rmit department of computer science lines have very funny yet confusing problem am using telemate within win everytime close dos box my telemate operation get affected normally am doing file transfer however if open close windows program everything seems running smoothly my file transfer operation get affected only if close dos box can somebody please gimme some pointers on what is going on and how to fix it thanks in advance glenn jayaputera path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu husc news harvard edu husc8 harvard edu ellard2 newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject changing windows fonts message id may1 husc3 harvard edu from ellard2 husc8 harvard edu daniel ellard date may edt distribution world organization harvard university science center keywords windows font help summary how can change the default font nntp posting host husc8 harvard edu lines friend of mine uses windows to do most of her work unfortunately she has very bad eyesight and we haven been able to figure out how to change the default font used by the system and application menus or the font used by the help program what use is hypertext if you can read it to make it legible to her if anyone knows how to increase the size of these fonts of any software package that makes windows more accessible to visually handicapped people please let me know thanks dan path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu husc news harvard edu kuhub cc ukans edu hubble asymetrix com rpi uwm edu biosci parc decwrl decwrl uunet mri jeff newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re lexan polish message id mar22 mri com from jeff mri com jonathan jefferies date mar gmt sender jeff mir com expires sun aug gmt references c41soe m62 ns1 nodak edu organization microtec research santa clara california usa keywords lexan plastic summary scratches in plastic lines in article c41soe m62 ns1 nodak edu wilken plains nodak edu scott wilken writes couple of years ago replaced the stock windscreen on my interceptor with higher one from national cycle the thing happens to be made of lexan can anyone recommend polish to use on it that is safe for lexan its starting to show few scratches and id like to polish them out go fast internet wilken plains nodak edu ama take chances uucp uunet plains wilken dod vf700f interceptor bitnet wilken plains suggest mcquires plastic polish it will help somewhat but nothing will remove deep scratches without making it worse than it already is mcquires will do something for fine or light stuff also suggest calling your local plastic shop in calif tap plastic is chain that carries most of what is needed for repair and sometimes replacement of plastic bits telephone in the bay area is not sure how amenable they are to shipping have found that they have several excellent products for cleaning and removing crap from windscreens and face shields also they have one called lift it which works real well in removing sticky stuffs such as adhessives from plastic wihtout scratching same luck jonathan jefferies jeff mri com xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net darwin sura net haven umd edu wam umd edu rsrodger from rsrodger wam umd edu yamanari subject re challenge to microsoft supporters message id may1 wam umd edu sender usenet wam umd edu usenet news system nntp posting host rac2 wam umd edu organization university of maryland college park references c6bgzv mk uceng uc edu may1 hubcap clemson edu c6d616 uceng uc edu date sat may gmt lines in article c6d616 uceng uc edu bferrell ant occ uc edu brett ferrell writes in article may1 hubcap clemson edu ludes hubcap clemson edu larry ludes ludwig writes munch you must of read too many os advertisements crash protection is such marketing gimick it isn funny out of months of using windows on my new machine ve only had it crash once and don have run of the mill configuration munch following is reformatted it does sound funny will admit but for me it is true windows crashed on all of the time and from what have read in pc mag this is not the exception say that the massive crash problems are exceedingly rare windows itself almost never crashes but it can be crashed by an errant application my personal favorite any one of the corel programs on the other hand have had os crash randomly number of times mostly just running it own applications for instance today discovered new one while was downloading with procomm plus for windows running seamless with the standard vga drivers on run da mill vga card x480 decided that wanted to edit copy of quote that wanted to add to my finger but since ve learned not to really trust seamless fired up full screen winos session whoops the download finished while winos was loading it had just gotten the pointer up so hit alt escape to get back the desktop have lot of fonts so loading takes good long while blam screen trashed procomm hangs up hm well can sorta see the mouse so clicked on the minimized winos session and got back my fullscreen windows session but the color were off red and green and yellow and brown instead of blues and greys so closed this and got back to the desktop now fully restored pp was still sitting window open but it was no longer connected to the com port so exited it the normal way it told me was still online and it would hang up though it was already hung up hm well load anothe no bad idea shutdown and reboot ok refresh first now shutdown yes everything is closed hm nothing seems to be happening let see ah the windows list still comes up ok let try shutdown again no go huh alright wait seconds to see if it just running slow hmm still seems to be running os try shutdown again nothing oh well reboot enjoy the checkdisk time in this case part of the os crashed not only itself but os entirely which isn even smart enough to tell when it been compromised guess in everyday specifically today use os gives each windows app vdm and they can touch each other or generally anything they aren supposed to have that the idea anyway in truth when program crashes on os it will bring the system down with it the programs that would just gpf under windows do the same under os but programs that are fine under dos and windows bring os screaming to halt task protection or no for instance still wondering why print preview in windowed wp dos locks up my system it works fine under dos or even in dos box under windows admittedly it doesn crash if run wp51 full screen but the first time this bug big me it bit hard if windows works for you then great maybe this is why some people don see why os is the os of choice if windows doesn crash on you and you don mind waiting on each task please explain the only time wait on anything under windows is when copying or formatting floppy or when printing and even then not long get to pages dumped to the printman per minute and can still go do things slowly while it doing this ve downloaded with pp while printing and not being able to adress your memory better than dos not sure what you mean here os sees megs uses or six of these for it own use more if you want to count winos windows sees megs uses or more like if you count the disk cache as am for os for itself if memory efficiency were big issue pc geos would be the current king of the intel desktop some of the key reasons for using os are gone probably would still use it but it would be more of an even fight on the other hand am finally able to say with some confidence that both os and windows have bit of hardware sensitivity to them for instance the machine am sitting at runs both fine while the machine next to me constantly locks up under windows but ran os without hitch once got it through crash install on the whole say os is whole lot more sensitive than windows but there are suppose machines that windows just doesn like wittism of th week think that it wrong to believe in an ism you should believe in yourself ferrish bueller wasn this ferris bueller there are stupid laws and then there are stupider than normal laws path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu gatech usenet ins cwru edu cert org netnews upenn edu netnews noc drexel edu queen mcs drexel edu tjhendry from tjhendry queen mcs drexel edu jonathan hendry newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject nextstep intel sneak preview reminder message id may1 netnews noc drexel edu date may gmt sender news netnews noc drexel edu organization drexel university dept of math and comp sci lines newsreader tin version pl8 phang the philadelphia area nextstep user group will be holding public sneak preview of nextstep for intel processors where david rittenhouse labs room a1 rd and walnut southeast corner philadelphia pa when wednesday may th pm to pm nextstep is the bit unix based operating environment which has until now only been available on motorola based next computers in the may th issue of pc magazine called nextstep hot prospect now next is nearing release of version of nextstep which will run on based pc yet is identical to the version in fact nextstep includes the ability to easily compile program into single binary which will run on both intel and motorola hardware nextstep for intel processors will be demonstrated on an epson progression computer nextstep is scheduled for release on may at nextworld expo in san francisco the demonstration will be open to the public come one come all if you are interested in seeing the most advanced pc operating system around come on by for brief summary of what nextstep offers see the may th issue of pc magazine page for more information contact me jonathan hendry phang the philadelphia area nextstep user group jon afs com jonathan hendry drexel university college of info studies tjhendry queen mcs drexel edu the experience of programming windows vs the experience of programming nextstep is like going to the dentist and having root canal without anaesthetic vs going to the dentist and having your gums cleaned some nitrous oxide thrown in for the entertainment side of things bbum stone co jonathan hendry drexel university college of info studies tjhendry queen mcs drexel edu the experience of programming windows vs the experience of programming nextstep is like going to the dentist and having root canal without anaesthetic vs going to the dentist and having your gums cleaned some nitrous oxide thrown in for the entertainment side of things bbum stone co xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net black clarku edu vax clarku edu rmohns from rmohns vax clarku edu subject re challenge to microsoft supporters message id may93 vax clarku edu sender news black clarku edu usenet news system organization clark university references news duke edu thomasez dhhalden no date may gmt lines in previous article thomasez dhhalden no thomas lundquist wrote they invented the how to make money on others ideas they made money they weren in the air at the wrong time hewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavebillgatesshavethewhalesshavethew he doesn have beard rob being pointless wondeing if anyone else caught that any resemblance between the above views and rob those of my faculty advisor my terminal or mohns the view out my window are purely coinci dental richard traina may or may not rmohns vax support said views but probably doesn clarku edu want clarkies to think about them xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os ms windows misc comp os ms windows programmer misc newsgroups comp os ms windows misc comp os ms windows programmer misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet mnemosyne cs du edu nyx mtelles from mtelles nyx cs du edu matt telles subject re required file format of word for ms window file doc message id may1 mnemosyne cs du edu disclaimer nyx is public access unix system run by the university of denver for the denver community the university has neither control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users sender usenet mnemosyne cs du edu netnews admin account organization nyx public access unix at of denver math cs dept references cosmosc6bcz0 kee netcom com distribution usa date sat may gmt lines in article cosmosc6bcz0 kee netcom com cosmos netcom com cosmos writes hi am trying to develop utility to view word for window file but to do that need to know the format of the doc word for window file format files can anybody tell me what is the format of doc file or direct me where can get it or is it proprietory format your help is greatly appriciated thanks the format for word for windows doc files is available from microsoft call their developer support services number sorry don have it handy and ask for the word for windows binary file format spec warning it is not terribly useful and you will need to do lot of looking before you can figure out how the stuff is stored general primer word for windows stores its data in two chunks the first chunk is the actual text in the file this is all stored together and has nothing but text and graphics the second chunk is the formatting information for general use to read word for windows file skip the first bytes of the file its general header then read the remaining text until you hit binary data matt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech prism gt2617c from gt2617c prism gatech edu brad smalling newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject re challenge to microsoft supporters message id hydra gatech edu date may gmt references may1 hubcap clemson edu c6d616 uceng uc edu may1 wam umd edu organization georgia institute of technology lines in article may1 wam umd edu rsrodger wam umd edu yamanari writes in article c6d616 uceng uc edu bferrell ant occ uc edu brett ferrell writes in article may1 hubcap clemson edu ludes hubcap clemson edu larry ludes ludwig writes and not being able to adress your memory better than dos not sure what you mean here os sees megs uses or six of these for it own use more if you want to count winos windows sees megs uses or more like if you count the disk cache as am for os for itself if memory efficiency were big issue pc geos would be the current king of the intel desktop assumed he was referring to os bit flat model addressing while dos and therefore windows use bit segmented addressing as programmer agree that segmentation unnecessarily complicates things it annoying too but when just windows user don think about it much and doubt many other people think about it or even care when just writing document calcing spreadsheet etc it works and they get their work done just neutral comment it funny think how arguments about windows vs os sound so very similar to arguments about atheism vs christianity or something like that it somehow very personal to people convictions are irrational and there nothing wrong with that it just interesting brad smalling jr ee ga tech atlanta ga gt2617c prism gatech edu xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov nntp server caltech edu werdna from werdna cco caltech edu andrew tong newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc subject re challenge to microsoft supporters date may gmt organization california institute of technology pasadena lines message id rv93linng9q gap caltech edu references c6bgzv mk uceng uc edu may1 hubcap clemson edu c6d616 uceng uc edu may1 wam umd edu nntp posting host sandman caltech edu rsrodger wam umd edu yamanari writes say that the massive crash problems are exceedingly rare windows itself almost never crashes but it can be crashed by an errant application my personal favorite any one of the corel programs on the other hand have had os crash randomly number of times mostly just running it own applications do know that ibm systems the ps slc2 in particular have absolutely no problem with os never had random crash while running any of my programs under os in fact don remember ever crashing of course really don run any os programs just the same bunch of dos and windows stuff that ve always been running and when had the slc this is the slc system running dos windows had only one crash and it was consistent ftp had tendency to crash whenever would get large files mb from particularly fast clients dtr sec figured out the problem was with smartdrv write buffering if turned off the write buffer everything would work fine ftp under os has never locked though can even format floppies to use the most often cited example of the superiority of os for instance still wondering why print preview in windowed wp dos locks up my system yeah guess willing to admit that os is somewhat sensitive to specific hardware wp51 for dos works perfectly fine on my slc2 please explain the only time wait on anything under windows is when copying or formatting floppy or when printing and even then not long get to pages dumped to the printman per minute and can still go do things slowly while it doing this ve downloaded with pp while printing well save all my personal files to floppy and when did that under windows floppy save of large file hung up the system also found it quite bothersome to have to continually tweak the tasking options on fractint for dos whenever wanted to do fractal computation in the background and not being able to address your memory better than dos not sure what you mean here the idea is that os dos sessions can see more memory than windows dos sessions let xpl shareware calculus program see around kb of free conventional memory which lets me do bigger symbolic manipulations than is possible under straight dos where it would see around kb of conventional ram also found it really handy for my own dos based programs which without any re writing could now handle larger data sets simulate for more iterations etc of course the point is now moot since the os programs now write simply never run into memory limitations never programmed for windows so don have much of comparison here though xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp unix misc comp os ms windows misc comp os os2 advocacy newsgroups comp unix misc comp os ms windows misc comp os os2 advocacy path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net wupost csus edu netcom com messina from messina netcom com tony porczyk subject re some info the dos msw meltdown is progressing nicely message id messinac6dnuo grx netcom com organization messina software references rqn1f n3k almaak usc edu messinac6b7zl iho netcom com may1 grebyn com date sun may gmt lines mfraioli grebyn com marc fraioli writes messina netcom com tony porczyk writes ajayshah almaak usc edu ajay shah writes the preferred applications development platform unix dos msw development of what in house apps maybe but certainly not apps to be sold on an open market statistics like that are laughable actually you might be surprised to find that not everyone who develops mainstream dos and windows apps develops them under dos or windows pc week recently printed rumor that microsoft excel development group does its development under os if you believe that have nice piece for swamp for you for re development microsoft does even its techpubs under windows another trade rag did an article recently about group doing windows development on sun sparcstations with softpc to test out their work that wasn geo works was it dos and windows are simply not robust or stable enough for development work imho and apparently others agree nonsense sorry make fun of windows all the time but the above is simply myth tell that to microsoft novell and others who dominate the market newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet pipex sunic aun uninett no nuug gars mats from mats gar no mats tande subject coda music finale and petrucci font problem message id may2 gar no keywords coda finale music font atm petrucci eps adobe organization gallagher robertson date sun may gmt lines ve been using final from coda for some time but suddenly it stopped using my fonts have pc with lots of disk space and memory postscript laser win3 finale and recently installed atm ve been fiddling around with the windows setup for some time and when needed to do some work with finale things didn print properly it might and it might not have anything to do with the installation of atm from something to but don have the old atm lying around anomore the most annoying problem was that the petrucci font didn print which is rather important font managed to get direct printing to work if included ownps in the finale section of win ini but compile postscript listing still doesn work and it those eps files need when look at the eps files generated the only font which appears there is courier found out that if manually changed the courier point to petrucci point in the eps file everything worked ok but rather avoid that since have lot of songs to work with and yes in the special font font names dialog box all the fonts need are listed with the correct mapping between finale screen and printer fonts finale is obviously aware of the fonts since direct printing of score works well that is after included ownps and all my other windows applications print petrucci and the other fonts well has anyone encountered problems like this what is the current version of finale from coda music software have are the people at coda available on internet or be grateful for all hints and help mats internet mats gar no quikcomm mats gar genor serverp mats garp mats tande oslo gr telemax no newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net newsserver jvnc net news edu tw news debbie ccsun8 u7911093 from u7911093 cc nctu edu tw erik wang subject how can make mpeg sound message id may2 debbie cc nctu edu tw sender usenet debbie cc nctu edu tw organization national chiao tung university newsreader tin version pl6 date sun may gmt lines hello install one wav driver pc speaker then install mpeg phoenix oulu fi pub incoming mpeg2 mpegexe zip in windows but when load one mpeg file and make sound type to wav or mpeg it always say error when load one mpeg file which have wav file wav then select sound type to wav it is normal and no error but still can hear sound what should do fix the sounddrv number in mfw ini thankx for any help internet address u7911093 cc nctu edu tw english name erik wang chinese name wang jyh shyang national chiao tung university taiwan path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet newsflash concordia ca sifon clouso crim ca iro umontreal ca matrox altitude tgm eric from eric tgm cam org eric trepanier newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject why not using dos anymore distribution world message id snx tgm cam org references apr30 hubcap clemson edu date fri apr gmt organization bell sygma revenue systems development reply to eric tgm cam org lines in article apr30 hubcap clemson edu charlea eng clemson edu writes regarding the horror stories about dos6 doubledisk and stacker killing hard drives was wondering if the dos mirror command works on the doubled drive info as well as the normal fat table and partition table if it records the vital doubledisk info then using it daily should go long way toward protecting yourself against the type of catastrophic failure discussed if it doesn then shame on microsoft mirror is one of those dos commands that didn survive the change from dos it been dropped along with backup join edlin and couple other crummy old dos commands you can still use the commands if you absolutely have to but they are not included on the distribution disks however in mirror case certain that it does not know anything about doublespaced drives eric eric trepanier internet eric tgm cam org ci grenon laval quebec h7n m3 everybody has right to believe in something canada believe ll have another beer newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet newsflash concordia ca sifon homer cs mcgill ca gel from gel cs mcgill ca gilles khouzam subject windows nt how to get the beta message id c6dwhm lrg cs mcgill ca sender gilles khouzam gel binkley cs mcgilll ca organization socs mcgill university montreal canada date sun may gmt lines was just wondering if anyone new how could get the beta version of windows nt and be part of the beta program thanks gel binkley cs mcgill ca please reply by mail xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp sys novell comp os ms windows misc newsgroups comp sys novell comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet cellar revpk from revpk cellar org brian rev siano subject novell and windows organization the cellar bbs and public access system date fri apr gmt message id xts3b2w164w cellar org sender bbs cellar org the cellar bbs lines working at workstation which is usually attached to novell network using shell version think the workstation was set up to run windows with the network about year ago needless to say like to upgrade it to windows and have it work with the network basically the windows files be on the local hard drive but several dos applications like word perfect will be on the network mainly want windows to access the network drives the network printers and perhaps handle some network functions as well if could multitask the dos apps whose executables are on the network that be great but could live without it eventually like to get few other in the office working with the network and windows as well however most of the terminals are which leaves the network pretty much dos bound and guess that leaves out windows for workgroups and in the future maybe there be norton desktop but that gettingahead of myself as you can guess ve never done anything like this before ve read through the networks material that came with windows but still like to know if anyone out there has any experience in such an area please reply by email don scan these newsgroups often thanks for any replies brian rev siano revpk cellar org well ll know right away by the look in her eyes she lost all illusions and she worldly wise and know if give her listen she what ve been missing what ve been missing ll be lost in love and havin some fun with my cynical girl who got no use for the real world looking for cynical girl marshall crenshaw cynical girl xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os ms windows misc comp os ms windows apps newsgroups comp os ms windows misc comp os ms windows apps path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet mnemosyne cs du edu nyx ddennis from ddennis nyx cs du edu dave dennis subject re drivers for stealth message id may2 mnemosyne cs du edu sender usenet mnemosyne cs du edu netnews admin account organization university of denver dept of math comp sci references c63nuj t4 news cso uiuc edu apr27 hubcap clemson edu date sun may gmt lines debrown hubcap clemson edu david brown writes doug ward writes recently purchased diamond stealth video card and received the wrong drivers does anyone know where can ftp the proper drivers the dstlth file at cica does not work with this video card please respond to doug sun sws uiuc edu thank you doug ward if you want to get them and get them now also the most up to date use the bbs at they may take an hour to download so do it when rates are low yeah know it costs but locking up your system gets old quick maybe someone has them on the net ve got the stealth drivers david the number you gave is the borland bbs and darned if can find any stealth drivers there diamond bbs is according to the manual got with my stealth have had bunch of trouble using the right drivers that came with the card locking up de syncing etc so hope you do better than do dave xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp sys ibm pc hardware comp os ms windows misc comp os ms windows setup path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu swrinde network ucsd edu sdcc12 sdcc5 cs173sbw from cs173sbw sdcc5 ucsd edu cs173sbw newsgroups comp sys ibm pc hardware comp os ms windows misc comp os ms windows setup subject video benchmarks wanted message id sdcc12 ucsd edu date may gmt sender news sdcc12 ucsd edu followup to poster lines nntp posting host sdcc5 ucsd edu hi am trying to compile chart for windows and dos performance of local bus video card so if you have dx2 and one of the local bus video cards below please email me your winbench and dbench obtainable in ftp wustl edu pub msdos uploads scores please give me winmark score at x600x256 and x600x64k will post the chart if enough response if received tseng et w32 vlb cl vlb s3 based local bus card ati ultra pro vlb orchid celsius vlb agx based vlb cards do they exist matox mga based video cards thanks all path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net agate dog ee lbl gov network ucsd edu munnari oz au uniwa dialix not for mail from joliver dialix oz au john oliver newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject need help recording of key mousestrokes in windows date may organization dialix services perth western australia lines message id s07pl c8e dialix oz au nntp posting host localhost dialix oz au summary need to record replay pause continue keystrokes in wprocessing sess keywords postgrad researcher need to replay pause continue recording of wor newsreader nn version sorry about confusing subject summary keywords am postgrad researcher in esl applied linguistics at edith cowan university in perth western australia desperately need help need to record the results of word processing sessions in windows so that can sit down and replay the results of my research subjects wordprocessing behaviours naturally can do this with the windows macrorecorder and or other apps in windows but cannot pause resume all can do is to ctrl break to get out this is useless for researcher who needs to be able to pause the wordprocessing session he is replaying to make notes annotations and then resume from where he left off am just about to commence my research for my masters thesis and would be extremely grateful for any assistance if anyone can help could they mail me at johnoliver odin dialix oz au many thanks in advance john oliver path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net newsserver jvnc net gmd de dearn barilvm f40109 organization bar ilan university computing center israel date sun may idt from sefi merkel f40109 vm biu ac il message id f40109 vm biu ac il newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject postscript to bmp conversion lines hi all am working on project in visual basic ver and need to show postcript files am getting from another aplication so because can show postscript directly form visual basic at least don know how need utility to convert them to bmp wmf any help will be appreshieated kobi elimelech messges can be sent to me at kobi asimov hacktic nl path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net paladin american edu auvm zhao organization the american university university computing center date sun may edt from zhao auvm american edu message id zhao auvm american edu newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject need iconized printer utility lines am looking for printer utility which stay in window as an icon and let you drag file to it to issue the printing xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech news ans net newsgate watson ibm com hawnews watson ibm com news from campbers craft clarkson edu bob campbell subject re challenge to microsoft supporters sender news hawnews watson ibm com nntp news poster message id c6euey b1t hawnews watson ibm com date sun may gmt news software ibm os pm rn nr v0 by vishnepolsky and rogers lines reply to bswan vax cns muskingum edu disclaimer this posting represents the poster views not necessarily those of ibm references apr30 samba oit unc edu c6bgzv mk uceng uc edu may1 hubcap clemson edu nntp posting host campbers bocaraton ibm com organization ibm boca raton hey larry how can you be comp sci major and never crash damn computer what does your cs dept teach you or are you just that good of programmer that not one of your assembly programs have ever downed your machine crash protection is such marketing gimick it isn funny out of months of using windows on my new machine ve only had it crash once and don have run of the mill configuration why do you bother putting up such stupid posts or are you that ignorant bob campbell clarkson university potsdam ny campbers craft clarkson edu newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net usc sdd hp com portal claebaur from claebaur shell portal com tony annese subject re need iconized printer utility message id c6eval unix portal com sender news unix portal com nntp posting host jobe organization portal communications company voice data references zhao auvm american edu date sun may gmt lines in article zhao auvm american edu zhao auvm american edu writes am looking for printer utility which stay in window as an icon and let you drag file to it to issue the printing you have one minimize the print manager and drag file to it and it will print it you need to associate file extensions with such things as the notepad for it to do this though tony annese claebaur shell portal com or claebaur cup portal com xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech news ans net newsgate watson ibm com yktnews watson ibm com hawnews watson ibm com news from campbers craft clarkson edu bob campbell subject re challenge to microsoft supporters sender news hawnews watson ibm com nntp news poster message id c6eus4 dt3 hawnews watson ibm com date sun may gmt news software ibm os pm rn nr v0 by vishnepolsky and rogers lines reply to bswan vax cns muskingum edu disclaimer this posting represents the poster views not necessarily those of ibm references c6bgzv mk uceng uc edu may1 hubcap clemson edu c6d616 uceng uc edu may1 wam umd edu nntp posting host campbers bocaraton ibm com organization clarkson university yamanari hey isn it funny how betas have bugs in them hey do me favor and don put up stupid posts bob clarkson university potsdam ny campbers craft clarkson edu newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net darwin sura net bogus sura net udel news intercon com psinntp laidbak tellab5 vpnet tom from tom vpnet chi il us tom hansen subject re replacement for program message id may2 vpnet chi il us organization vpnet public access references uupcb idcbbs com date sun may gmt lines in article uupcb idcbbs com les tom idcbbs com les tom writes maw ying yuan wrote from yuan wiliki eng hawaii edu maw ying yuan subject replacement for program manager and file manager message id c68g1g juj news hawaii edu date thu apr gmt replacements for win3 program manager and file manager yuan wiliki eng hawaii edu hi ve been using plannet crafter plug in for program manager the best one ve seen is ceo by sloop software they have sharware version but the retail version is only it incredibly complete subfolders to any level choose any icon hot keys drop down menus button bars etc haven found anything it doesn do try mailing compuserve com for details tom tom hansen my beard grows to my toes never wears no tom vpnet chi il us clothes wraps my hair around my bare and yam what yam down the road goes shel silverstein path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc sol ctr columbia edu hamblin math byu edu yvax byu edu cunyvm n51bc newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject re why is my mouse so jumpy ms mouse message id n51bc cunyvm bitnet from n51bc cunyvm bitnet date sunday may edt references goudswaa sfu ca apr28 tolten puc cl organization city university of new york lines everyone seems to think that this man mouse problem is mechanical its dirty have been having similar problem with my mouse and it only occurs when ru nning windows and therefore cannot be mechanical in nature running mouse systems compatible mouse on dx2 with trident meg video card and experienceing similar jumpiness as well as strange font subsitutions and mous traces left on screen and windows gpf errors help newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net darwin sura net sgiblab tsoft tedm from tedm tsoft net ted matsumura subject re need iconized printer utility message id c6ezhn jlq tsoft net organization tsoft bbs and public access unix references zhao auvm american edu c6eval unix portal com date sun may gmt lines in article c6eval unix portal com claebaur shell portal com tony annese writes in article zhao auvm american edu zhao auvm american edu writes am looking for printer utility which stay in window as an icon and let you drag file to it to issue the printing you have one minimize the print manager and drag file to it and it will print it you need to associate file extensions with such things as the notepad for it to do this though tony annese claebaur shell portal com or claebaur cup portal com this may work but won it involve invoking the applications if you drag bmp or txt file to the min print manager icon won it run notepad and paintbrush before printing if you just want to drag file txt or bmp to print server icon with stay at front attributes you need an intelligent print manager drag and drop client like amish print ted path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu ohstpy miavx1 arhodge newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject off line mail for netnews message id may2 miavx1 acs muohio edu from arhodge miavx1 acs muohio edu date may organization miami university academic computer service lines are there any off line mail readers for the net news in qwk format it would be really helpfull to be able to download the net news from vax or mainframe and read it off line adam hodge arhodge miavx1 acs muohio edu newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel wupost sdd hp com portal claebaur from claebaur shell portal com tony annese subject re need iconized printer utility message id c6fde5 rd unix portal com sender news unix portal com nntp posting host jobe organization portal communications company voice data references zhao auvm american edu c6eval unix portal com c6ezhn jlq tsoft net date mon may gmt lines in article c6ezhn jlq tsoft net tedm tsoft net ted matsumura writes in article c6eval unix portal com claebaur shell portal com tony annese writes you have one minimize the print manager and drag file to it and it will print it you need to associate file extensions with such things as the notepad for it to do this though this may work but won it involve invoking the applications if you drag bmp or txt file to the min print manager icon won it run notepad and paintbrush before printing if you just want to drag file txt or bmp to print server icon with stay at front attributes you need an intelligent print manager drag and drop client like amish print yes it invokes the associated application that takes but seconds tony annese claebaur shell portal com or claebaur cup portal com newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet world cfw from cfw world std com christopher wroten subject problem on dos box from windows this file is compressed message id c6fi8w l5 world std com organization the world public access unix brookline ma date mon may gmt lines ve started getting message from windows whenever try to execute dos program from windows either thru the program manager or the file manager message box comes up and says this program or one of its components is compressed use the ms dos expand command to expand the file now know this is bogus because can always execute the program from dos when not running windows the program in question is command com yup the basic dos command line shell and the expand command tells me that the file is already expanded all my windows apps work just fine only get this message when trying to execute dos program from windows clues anyone thanks christopher wroten cfw world std com newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet world ewl from ewl world std com erich lantz subject wordbasic time date variables message id c6fl61 fls world std com summary question about time date vars under wordbasic keywords winword variable mail wordbasic macro organization the world public access unix brookline ma date mon may gmt lines writing mail management system using word for windows as front end the user dials up remote system and downloads batch of mail as foo txt ve set up an autoexec macro in winword to load foo txt ok but subsequent invocations of the macro will of course pose file name contention problems what really like to do is to create an autoexit macro in winword that would move foo txt to specified directory rename it using the current date and time and delete the original foo txt in other words foo txt gets renamed as say on may at the user gets time indexed backup of his mail files and foo txt is freed up for the next packet of mail since my autoexec macro points to it my main question is this how may one rename file from within wordbasic macro to include time date variable in the new filename thanks if you ever reach total enlightenment while drinking beer bet it makes beer shoot out of your nose jack handey erich lantz ewl world std com timberville va dod path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu cleveland freenet edu ak333 from ak333 cleveland freenet edu martin linsenbigler newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject re changing windows fonts date may gmt organization case western reserve university cleveland oh usa lines message id s23mn pu usenet ins cwru edu references may1 husc3 harvard edu reply to ak333 cleveland freenet edu martin linsenbigler nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu in previous article ellard2 husc8 harvard edu daniel ellard says friend of mine uses windows to do most of her work unfortunately she has very bad eyesight and we haven been able to figure out how to change the default font used by the system and application menus or the font used by the help program what use is hypertext if you can read it to make it legible to her if anyone knows how to increase the size of these fonts of any software package that makes windows more accessible to visually handicapped people please let me know thanks dan the may issue of pc computing page has windows hint and tips for just this thing you have to edit the win ini file and add couple of lines tried it and it works actually made my title bar and iconized text and icon text smaller on my monitor it works well you can select larger font also you edit the win ini file with font name in your system directory read the article because would not want to retype it here in case type errored and caused your system problems ya artin this communication is sent by artin university of arizona tucson ak333 cleveland freenet edu mlinsenb ccit arizona edu mlinsenb arizvms death has been dead for about years follow the king of kings path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu moe ksu ksu edu matt ksu ksu edu news from brettw matt ksu ksu edu brett watson newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject which sound board to buy date may organization kansas state university lines distribution usa message id s243finn8je matt ksu ksu edu nntp posting host matt ksu ksu edu well ve come into some money and want to buy cd rom sound board and speakers have not kept up on any material relating to sound boards and cd rom because until now never thought have enough money so can you guru out there point me in the direction of good package including cd rom sound and speakers and software suppose or since don really need the cd rom right now give me some good ideas for sound boards and speakers those could really use now have looked at soundblaster pro which costs about as much as think want to spend on board and ve looked at the gravis sound board which is about and don know the adv disadv of either of these boards right now want to use it with any games that support sound and to use in windows to utilize sound capabilities there so any concise info on sound boards complete multimedia packages etc would be greatly appreciated if anyone else is interested in this info would be glad to summarize responses and post and if this is some type of faq please point me in the right direction and don bother taking up lot of bandwidth thanks brett brett watson database system administrator kansas supreme court topeka ks newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech enterpoop mit edu thunder mcrcim mcgill edu gel from gel cs mcgill ca gilles khouzam subject re windows and ati ultra mach8 chip sizing question message id may3 thunder mcrcim mcgill edu sender gilles khouzam gel binkley cs mcgill ca nntp posting host binkley cs mcgill ca organization socs mcgill university montreal canada references c6c5za j7i watserv2 uwaterloo ca date mon may gmt lines in article c6c5za j7i watserv2 uwaterloo ca mike tancsa mdtancsa watarts uwaterloo ca writes have just upgraded from trident tvga9000 to an ati graphics ultra the old mach8 chip am quite pleased with the performance so far but have one problem when using windows in x600 have noticed that the tile bars and scroll bars are significantly larger than they were when was using the trident card is there setting in my ini files that can change to make these smaller could not find the faq for this list mike mdtancsa watarts uwaterloo ca make sure you use the small fonts driver not the large fonts driver check that in your setup that the only explanation would find hope this helps gel newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu news cso uiuc edu uxh cso uiuc edu dragovic from dragovic uxh cso uiuc edu kyle banor subject when will nt be ready date mon may gmt message id c6fmpo ade news cso uiuc edu sender usenet news cso uiuc edu net noise owner keywords nt organization university of illinois at urbana lines when will be able to call my favorite mail order software shop and buy nt jeff dragovich dragovic cevax ce uiuc edu newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet world paladin from paladin world std com thomas schlatter subject re why is my mouse so jumpy ms mouse message id c6fmxl jey world std com organization the world public access unix brookline ma references goudswaa sfu ca apr28 tolten puc cl n51bc cunyvm bitnet date mon may gmt lines in article n51bc cunyvm bitnet n51bc cunyvm bitnet writes everyone seems to think that this man mouse problem is mechanical its dirty have been having similar problem with my mouse and it only occurs when ru nning windows and therefore cannot be mechanical in nature its my understanding that bus mice are more accurate and stable in general than serial mice if remember correctly its because of the differences in how the interrupts are handled as well as the fact that the mouse data is received over the computer bus as opposed to bps serial connection running mouse systems compatible mouse on dx2 with trident meg video card and experienceing similar jumpiness as well as strange font subsitutions and mous traces left on screen and windows gpf errors help is this just general problem or is it associated with specific application or group of applications path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net ira uka de germany eu net news dfn de urmel informatik rwth aachen de tornado oche de ac3 maus de christian wenk from christian wenk ac3 maus de christian wenk newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject re emm386 and windows message id a53356 ac3 maus de date sun may gmt references a52743 ac3 maus de organization mausnet mitglied im in lines gateway mausgate news ac3 hallo ebosco us oracle com wrote on about emm386 and windows von ebosco us oracle com mi name eric bosco should use emm386 or should remove it from my config sys basically windows prefers extendend memory instead of expanded more work to do for win and if no application desperatly needs ems you should leave emm386 with rem in your config sys bye chris xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os ms windows programmer win32 comp os ms windows programmer misc comp os ms windows misc comp os ms windows apps path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu pgupta from pgupta magnus acs ohio state edu puneet gupta newsgroups comp os ms windows programmer win32 comp os ms windows programmer misc comp os ms windows misc comp os ms windows apps subject wordbasic visual basic macros template date may organization the ohio state university lines sender daemon magnus acs ohio state edu message id aa09353 magnusug magnus acs ohio state edu nntp posting host charm magnus acs ohio state edu am working with visual basic v2 for windows specifically am working on an application that generates formatted reports since some of these reports can be rather large my first question is is there way to increase the size of list box or text box in visual basic windows beyond the limit as have not as yet being optimistic come across way to get around the above problem am working on the following approach am trying to create my own defined template in ms word using the wordbasic macros so that can open up word from visual basic vb and load this template of mine which will work in the following way it will first open myown ini file created in vb at the time when the user selected the kind of report he weanted and read the section from the ini file and jump to the appropriate code in template which will then open and read file pertaining to the section it read from the ini file when using the getprofilestring function in wordbasic is there way to specify change the default ini file which is win ini to myown ini file when using the file input function in wordbasic is there way to read more than the at one time any help will be appreciated pgupta magnus acs ohio state edu xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os ms windows apps comp os ms windows programmer tools comp os ms windows misc comp os ms windows programmer misc newsgroups comp os ms windows apps comp os ms windows programmer tools comp os ms windows misc comp os ms windows programmer misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech darwin sura net sgiblab a2i delgreco from delgreco rahul net david delgreco subject recommendation for screen capture program message id c6ftvg hf rahul net followup to comp os ms windows misc keywords dodot screen capture screen shot windows sender news rahul net usenet news nntp posting host bolero organization a2i network date mon may gmt lines looking for some recommendations for screen capture programs couple of issues ago pc mag listed as editor choices both conversion artist and hijaak for windows anyone have any experience with those or some others trying to get an alpha manual in the next few days and not making much progress with the screen shots currently using dodot and about to burn it and the disks it rode it on it got lot of freaky bugs and oversights that are driving me crazy tonight it decided that for any graphic it writes out as tiff file that under certain arbitrary size it will swap the left and right sides of the picture usually it confines itself to not copying things to the clipboard so have to save and load pix for editing in paintbrush or crashing every hour or so the one nice thing it has though is it dither option you think that this would turn colors into dots which it does if you go from say colors to colors but if you go from or colors to you can set threshold level for which colors turn to black and which turn to white for me this is useful because can turn light grays on buttons to white and the dark grays to black and thereby preserve the effect on buttons and other parts of the window if you understood my description can you tell me if another less buggy program can do this as well much thanks for any help signature david delgreco what lies behind us and what lies technically writer before us are tiny matters compared delgreco rahul net to what lies within us oliver wendell holmes david delgreco delgreco rahul net xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os ms windows setup comp os ms windows misc newsgroups comp os ms windows setup comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu utnut torn watserv2 uwaterloo ca watserv1 metrics com tomh from tomh metrics com tom haapanen subject re hercules graphite results organization software metrics inc date sun may gmt message id may02 metrics com references apr06 metrics com c5jbkf b8 usenet ucs indiana edu apr16 monu6 cc monash edu au lines tomh metrics com tom haapanen writes has anyone used hercules graphite adapter it looks good on paper and steve gibson gave it very good review in infoworld love to get real world impression though how is the speed drivers support rda771v monu6 cc monash edu au wuysang writes but the impressive performance of the graphite was not its winmark it was its wintach result esp the paint performance judging from the wintach tests can hardly imagine that there is cheat driver for it received my graphite vl on thursday and ve had little bit of experience with it now in general it feels fast although this is the first vlb card that have tried still the results are impressive with my dx2 mb running at x768 ve had the following wintach results card wp cad spread paint overall ati graphics ultra ati ultra no aperture hercules graphite vl unfortunately don have the numbers here but the ati ultra pro vlb had an overall wintach score of about the ultra pro was nearly as fast in text handling but was blown away in the cad and paint tests as an additional test we hand timed complex coreldraw slide resize redraw times there was no swapping but expect there is fairly heavy load on the cpu the graphite redraw times averaged about seconds with ati ultra pro at this jives with steve gibson contention that the isa graphite is faster than an ati up on his complex micrografx draw document so far very impressed the drivers look solid and the card flies the installation and utilities are different but comparable to ati and didn have to wait for build for some reliability with hercules software developer special you can get an evaluation copy of the card for just or for the isa version call if you want to give it try happy customer now tom haapanen tomh metrics com software metrics inc waterloo ont stick your index fingers into both corners of your mouth now pull up that how the corrado makes you feel car january path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com emory sol ctr columbia edu zaphod mps ohio state edu darwin sura net jhunix hcf jhu edu jhunix hcf jhu edu not for mail from admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu steve liu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re no joke rockies have attendance record date apr organization homewood academic computing johns hopkins university baltimore md usa lines sender admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu distribution usa expires message id pfgarinnq7s jhunix hcf jhu edu references wilbanks spot colorado edu nntp posting host jhunix hcf jhu edu summary opcy is just too small hell the orioles opening day game could easily be the largest in history if we had stadium with seats but unfortunely the yards definitely excellent ballpark only holds like with sro spots ticket sales for the entire year is moving fast bleacher seats are almost gone for every game this year it extremely likelyhood that the could sell out every game this year especially if we lead the division for most of the year like on another front the sale of the orioles to anyone is likely to be forced upon eli jacobs who is major debt apparently maybe we can get an owner willing to spend on proven rightfielder free agent in the winter fernando has made the as the fifth starter the pitching staff looks pretty good sutcliffe mussina mcdonald rhodes and fernando baltimore is my pick for the victors in very competitive al east admiral steve liu internet address admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu committee for the liberation and intergration of terrifying organisms and their rehabilitation into society from red dwarf polymorph the bangles are the greatest female rock band that ever existed this sig has been brought to you by frungy the sport of kings second to last day of the season gregg the true wild thing olson uncorks wild pitch allowing the blue jays to tie blue jays win in the th and ends the baby birds miracle season of path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu linac uchinews kimbark thf2 from thf2 kimbark uchicago edu ted frank newsgroups rec sport baseball subject players overpaid message id apr5 midway uchicago edu date apr gmt article midway apr5 sender news uchinews uchicago edu news system reply to thf2 midway uchicago edu organization university of chicago lines there lot of whining about how much players are overpaid thought put together an underpaid team that could win pennant splurged and let four of the players earn as much as half million dollars the highest paid player is frank thomas at cut some players like kenny lofton chris hoiles keith mitchell tim wakefield and bunch of pitchers all of whom could have arguably made the team better at cost of million for the lot of them the total team salary is averaging slightly over player if that too steep you can dump thomas and bagwell replacing them with paul sorrento and minimum wager to save bit over million dollars and still have one of the best teams in the majors juan guzman mussina castillo eldred rhodes militello rp rojas rp beck rp melendez rp hernandez rp nied rodriguez piazza thomas bagwell knoblauch barberie gomez palmer ss listach ss pena lf gonzalez cf lankford rf sanders of plantier ted frank however teel should have mentioned that though thf2 kimbark uchicago edu his advice is legally sound if you follow it the of law school you will probably wind up in jail standard disclaimers james donald in misc legal newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu caen batcomputer cornell tedward from tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer subject re rickey henderson message id apr5 cs cornell edu organization cornell univ cs dept ithaca ny references apr5 ra msstate edu distribution usa date mon apr gmt lines in article apr5 ra msstate edu js1 isis msstate edu jiann ming su writes say buy out henderson contract and let him go bag groceries next season you ll be able to sign him for nothing that goes for any bitching ball player doubt henderson would clear waivers and if he did he would instantly be signed for the major league minimum with oakland picking up the remaining million tab some gms value on field performance too valentine path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl csus edu nic csu net koko csustan edu mrosales newsgroups rec sport baseball subject giants win the pennant message id apr5 koko csustan edu from mrosales koko csustan edu maria rosales date mon apr gmt distribution usa organization csu stanislaus lines giants win the pennant giants win the pennant gi ooops guess little early here see you in october newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech news feed peachnet edu umn edu milli thornley from thornley milli cs umn edu david thornley subject re minnesota pitching message id c50x02 e4c news2 cis umn edu sender news news2 cis umn edu usenet news administration nntp posting host milli cs umn edu organization university of minnesota minneapolis csci dept references snelson3 uwsuper edu date mon apr gmt lines in article snelson3 uwsuper edu snelson3 uwsuper edu scott nelson writes the rotation has changed due to strange injury to scott erickson he developed twinge in the stomach area and has been taken out of the rotation new rotation to the best of my mind knowledge is kevin tapani jim deshais pat mahomes willie banks add mike trombley in there somewhere since they need five people mark guthrie will remain in the bullpen as the long lefty as to ss and short will be played by scott leius who played short for much of his career before the twins at third mike pagliarulo and jeff reboulet will platoon pags and terry jorgenson will platoon at third with reboulet as the backup infielder pags looked pretty miserable yesterday for guy who lead the league in da in muffing what should be routine grounders heck muffing grounder would probably have gotten to jorgenson did nothing exceptional that noticed leius missed ball think gagne would have reached we will certainly miss gag glove this season winfield has struggled during preseason sunday against the colorado rockies he went for with rbis and scored once he looked pretty good there contrary to what the mediots have been saying he looked reasonable at first he isn mid hrbek but then neither is the pretty big guy himself any more note used to seeing the twins looking kinda big on the field but not that big if he hits vaguely like last year he perfectly good first baseman note much of this posting is from personal observation yesterday in game where the regulars were mostly pulled after several innings winfield may have big holes in his defensive game that didn show up he didn have to pick any bad throws for example but ll take what saw so far david thornley have tickets will travel to dome newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu moe ksu ksu edu hobbes physics uiowa edu news iastate edu pv0a0f vincent iastate edu tjrad from tjrad iastate edu thomas radosevich subject brewers injuries message id tjrad pv0a0f vincent iastate edu sender news news iastate edu usenet news system organization iowa state university ames ia date mon apr gmt lines hi all ve been locked in small closet chained to lab bench for the last week or two without access to really important information saw the million shoulder back on the dl how long is he out for how many millions inning will he get this year nothing personal against higuera mind you just wondering how bud can keep coffing up money for him when he lets current big producers go over relative pittance please realize the term relative pittance can only be used with sarcasm when discussing baseball salaries additional questions did nt get to see bones pitch this spring how is he looking and where is he going to fit in the rotation how is surhoff shaping up defensively at third are they going to build new stadium when tom newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net spool mu edu torn newshost uwo ca sscl uwo ca vince from vince sscl uwo ca subject binaca blast deep drive derby bbddd returns organization social science computing laboratory distribution na date mon apr gmt message id apr5 sscl uwo ca references piisn asq network ucsd edu sender news julian uwo ca usenet news system nntp posting host vaxr sscl uwo ca lines in article piisn asq network ucsd edu king cogsci ucsd edu jonathan king writes less well publicized part of the now infamous darrin jackson for derek bell trade was the fact that san diego included in the deal even less publicized than this however was that the didn come from the padres but from an un named source and that the money didn go to the blue jays in toronto the money was diverted into london bank account owned by shadowy character named vincent gray should be so lucky the account number must have been rejected the odd thing was that gray wasn some british financier but canadian social scientist working at the university of western ontario gray was previously known to the authorities only as an associate of john palmer and as the man who had the previous year discovered the true tater name of bing bang ben macdonald to be accurate it is big bang ben macdonald soon after that gray and palmer sent word to ottawa that canada had achieved absolute superiority over the united states in the field of baseballistic research as she controlled both the acker cook pitch alike contest and the binaca blast research institute the prime minister smiled hope not to think that would inadvertantly give any pleasure to mulroney really ruins my day ps matthew wall marvellous ending to the section on the expos okay so not giving up the day job but in an effort to help me keep the day job ve managed to foist the job of running the binaca blast deep drive derby onto vince gray to whom future deep drive related tidbits should be sent vince sscl uwo ca or vince vaxi sscl uwo ca please identify any messages with the subject line bbddd vince can take this post as the cue to chime in about what he plans to do as the new director of the research institute and what kind of body armor ontarians are wearing this spring meanwhile have to go pick up that truckload of denis boucher cards bought to fill in the area behind our tool shed jking realizing the taterific importance of this work john palmer and concluded that we might be able to pool some resources have not yet gone through the archives that jonathan sent to me when do will send out an official introduction to the deep drive derby however wonder if we need to rename the project now that the principal investigator and research archive have changed send your suggestions for rename of the study to me at the address given above and just think it opening day soon the balls will be flying out no get your minds out of the gutter of the ball parks and helpless bystanders will be injured by balls reentering the atmosphere and you thought that meteorite showers were made of rocks who will be the stars this year can anyone hope to combat brad arnsberg record start to last year the season is young the balls newly rubbed in mud the hot dogs starting to boil for the rest of the year play ball and take cover and may all your sliders hang vince path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech news feed peachnet edu umn edu msus1 msus edu mhd moorhead msus edu holsend newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re designated hitter rule message id apr5 msus1 msus edu from holsend mhd moorhead msus edu date apr reply to holsend mhd moorhead msus edu references apr4 bsu ucs ekdfc ttacs1 ttu edu organization moorhead state university moorhead mn nntp posting host lines in article ekdfc ttacs1 ttu edu ekdfc ttacs1 ttu edu david coons writes in article apr4 bsu ucs ecgillespi leo bsuvc bsu edu writes am doing postition paper on the designated hitter rule any information or even opinions would be greatly apprecitated ecgillespie magic should be rescinded the rules say baseball is game between two teams of nine players each let keep it that way last weeks sports illustrated has couple of big articles on the designated hitter it is the baseball issue th is weeks sports illustrated path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse emory gatech usenet ins cwru edu po cwru edu dxf12 from dxf12 po cwru edu douglas fowler newsgroups rec sport baseball subject atas games standings of all message id pqf84 caf usenet ins cwru edu date apr gmt article usenet pqf84 caf organization case western reserve university cleveland ohio usa lines nntp posting host slc12 ins cwru edu philadelphia at chicago teams tied for st after sunday dick redding battled chet brewer in the first game of dramatic four game series one friday one saturday and good old sunday doubleheader what could be better declared ernie banks perhaps the fact that the cubs are challenging it pitching it always been pitching that we ve lacked announced ryne sandberg if we can get by brewer then beat carlton alexander or bunning preferrably of the last three we ll know we might be able to win lord hope we pull it off the phils scored once in the top of the first richie ashburn singled pete rose followed with hit sending ashburn around second kiki cuyler cut the ball off in left center and threw bullet in to ernie banks who threw to ron santo to get ashburn at third rose went to second on the play christobel torrienti lifted long fly to center moving pete rose to third schmidt was walked the cubs were absolutely refusing to let him beat them both torrienti and schmidt will likely draw walks this year chuck klein is starting to hit very well and he lashed double into gap in right center cool papa bell speed allowed him to cut the ball off and prevent schmidt from scoring nellie fox was walked and bob boone grounded out to second ending the threat teams are starting to realize that you don have to pitch to schmidt or torrienti and that is lowering their run total it puts lot of pressure on klein and dick allen who platoons with chuck klein and occasionally spells rose at first and it credit to the phillies that they ve been able to sustain their pace the picthers have slumped at times so came the analysis from frank chance the cubs got that run back when bell bunted for hit thomas grounder moved him to second and after sandberg made out billy williams singled home run in the sixth ron santo launched two run homer to make it dick redding got in trouble in the eighth as schmidt singled and klein singled him to third ed reulbach entered to face fox but dick allen popped out of the dugout to hit allen doubled to right but luckily for the cubs williams had moved to left and andre dawson had been inserted for defense he fired bullet to home plate to keep klein at third lance parrish hitting for boone was walked and bruce sutter entered larry bowa grounded into double play but ed delahanty walked as pinch hitter desiring strikeout since ashburn was likely to attempt bunt hit with the quick trillo pinch running at third chance brought in lee smith who induced pop up to the catcher from the speedy centerfielder ending the inning the cubs took the win moving game behind the phillies steve carlton was called upon to battle finger brown saturday to get another righthander in the lineup ron santo moved to first and bill madlock played third unfortunately brown allowed six doubles and the cub bullpen was worn down even more as the cubs tried to maintain lead against lefty madlock batting sixth had knocked two doubles of his own driving home four runs gabby hartnett hit two home runs and cuyler added another and the score was cubs after six innings the phillie bullpen had more troubles in the bottom of the eighth as the cubs grabbed more runs to ice an triumph sunday twin bill saw cool papa bell gather seven straight hits at one point including rare outside the park home run in the second game off robin roberts grover alexander of the phils took the first contest but the cubs captured the second one with waddell gaining the win bruce sutter tossed two innings for the save though he allowed one run in the eighth the cardinals stood half game behind these co leaders and would conclude their series with the expos on monday montreal at st louis august way tie for st dennis martinez is on roll and he continued it versus john tudor friday the expos have wide variety of hitters and while they aren among the all time greats they are getting the job done after winning their first first two games they suddenly found themselves only games out of first in this wacky season martinez triumphed on friday and williams outdueled dizzy dean saturday however the cardinals refused to give up winning on sunday the cards captured monday game too as steve carlton outdueled steve rogers we re really good against ground ball pitchers because of our team speed remarked lou brock don see why we can win this division the phillies and cubs may have some reasons for them two thirds of the way through the season there is way tie for first new york at pittsburgh august straight wins for bucs now back but in th when your team is in slump like we are the worst thing is to play in pitcher park like this spoke gil hodges before the series keith hernandez added that their defense takes away quite few runs per year and it must be giving them an extra wins the pirates have made only errors all season ahead of the second place dodgers error totals tend to be around for the best defensive all time teams rube foster defeated sid fernandez friday and candelaria outshone seaver saturday in game featuring some outstanding defense when nolan ryan and two relivers hit the mets in another win sunday the pirates could once again look forward to victory getting them back to the mark they had been unable to several times in the past month bert blyleven met dwight gooden in the afternoon game both pitchers possessed fantastic stuff and the only runs scored through eight innings were on home runs solo shot by rusty staub of the mets and two run blast by ralph kiner for the pirates the mets darryl strawberry singled home run in the top of the ninth off jesse orosco working his second inning after mookie wilson pinch ran for gary carter at second with one out and runner on first lee mazilli was sent in to pinch hit the pirates countered with kent tekulve placing him in the fifth spot in the order and putting barry bonds in left field as the ninth place hitter tekulve induced groundout forcing strawberry at second he slid hard into honus wagner preventing the pirates from turning their fifth double play of the afternoon tekulve allowed hit but clemente threw mazilli out at third from near the right field line ending the inning tug mcgraw relieved randy myers who entered to pitch the eighth and got one out before bonds launched rocket to deep center running through the stop sign at third to score an inside the park homer to win the pirates had scored an improbable straight wins and had moved to within games of first place with seven weeks to go san francisco at boswaukta august another sunday doubleheader appeared on the schedule as the giants managed to close the gap on the other teams thanks to some starting pitching that just wouldn tire in fact reported manager john mcgraw once this rough part of the schedule is over maybe as early as this coming week we may shift to man rotation again for little while juan marichal continued his hot pitching friday beating lew burdette and the braves willie mays had all four on hits rick reuschel faced joe niekro saturday in slugfest the braves park had been homer haven but this took the cake as the giants won seesaw affair willie mays had three homers willie mccovey eddie matthews and don baylor had two and hank aaron ernie lombardi biz mackey and mel ott had one each the braves had collected home runs going into sunday doubleheader putting them on pace for which would be short of the national league record they were still tad behind the yankees pace they had allowed over though vida blue actually got the win after retiring batters in the fifth he allowed only run in the sixth but faltered in the seventh joe mcginnity earned the save in the doubleheader the braves hoyt wilhelm failed to hold lead in the first game but hank aaron homered off bill foster in the eighth as the braves won the giants took the second game however by score the homer by aaron was magical by the braves however they fell to three game below making comeback extremely unlikely san diego at cincinnati aug randy jones faced ewell blackwell in the first of this game series and the padres felt rather good with don mattingly straining his back in the last cleveland game the trade looked even better mcgriff batting average was even rising of course the bench was very poor and joe gordon was only adequate in the outfield but these were minor problems since the pitching was holding up jones pitched good game friday and won mcgriff launched two home runs mel harder earned win with the help of mark davis and ray narleski saturday was the final score tom candiotti battled satchel paige to tie through eight innings before departing the game was scoreless for more innings until the thirteenth paige had departed after and john franco hurled scoreless inning tom browning was working his second scoreless inning when dave winfield doubled with one out and joe gordon was pitched around thurm munson doubled both runners home and the padres gamed win the three game sweep had pulled the giants into tie with the reds though the reds denied it the highly emotional series with the dodgers may have taken too much out of them brookangeles at houston august another series capped off by weekend doubleheader took place in the wide open plains of the astrodome the astros sent joe niekro to the hill in the first game opposite don drysdale normally drysdale remarked would be challenging hitter by being ready to throw at them can afford to with this team though we have to get our own runners going we can afford to let the astros beat us he then winked and said well maybe davis will get decked once the fact that glenn davis leads the team in homers with six is primarily why he would be decked but it should be understood that his current pace would give him nine for the season the hitting on this team is little better but the power is all doubles and triples still carl furillo is the main reason no astro home runs were hit over the weekend as he threw two runners out trying for inside the park homers for those unaware of the nastness of the astros park they have foot high gray wall all around the outfield balls must be hit into the seats to be home runs the foul poles are feet from home plate but the alleys are feet away with center field at feet it as if some three year old threw tantrum and told his playmates if can hit home runs nobody will hit home runs remarked roy campanella the dodgers stole five bases friday but the astros decided to revitalize the baltimore chopping that had failed weeks before for tonight anyway davis jim wynn and jose cruz did not have to mess with their swings according to the manager after poles and willie wells reached base via the baltimore chop drysdale decked jose cruz with pitch he responded with two run double but wynn playing first for davis popped up and the astros didn score any more in that inning they did score in the fourth to erase deficit and the astros wound up winning they threatened to do even better the next game as tommy john would be their opponent walt alston met privately with the starters at before the game think know how we can beat the baltimore chop he explained how can we do that pee wee reese wondered they re going to be beating the ball down so we ve got to be ready to throw on the run steve will start at first to dig balls out of the dirt but want all of you to practice your barehanded picks and throws we ll go with shallow infield almost the whole time the plan almost worked mike scott allowed only two runs through eight innings but the astros got three two of them scored when bill doran pushed bunt into the outfield in the fourth with runners on second and third astros was the final with dave smith earning another save the dodgers scored victory in the first game of the twin bill sunday as nolan ryan walked five three of whom scored in dodger win fernando valenzuela lost the second game to don sutton however as the dodgers thirteen stolen bases in the series proved to not be enough we re mostly power team remarked ron cey jackie and when he plays maury wills are our only real speed demons though couple other plays can do it now and then we re sunk in place like the astrodome guess that why they re so successful there indeed it seems that basestealing teams give them the most trouble in the dome the stros swiped bases in attempts giving them on the season standings after these weekend series east team gb new york cleveland detroit boston baltimore toronto washington west oaksaselphia minnesota chicago kansas city california milwaukee seattle east chicago philadelphia st louis pittsburgh montreal new york west brookangeles cincinnati san francisco boswaukta houston san diego doug fowler dxf12 po cwru edu me age now mommys and daddys other ever wonder if after casey relatives have to give lots of hugs love missed the rd strike in the poem support cause heaven is just great he ran to first and made it big hug that lasts forever and ever newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net uunet decwrl csus edu news ucdavis edu dale ucdavis edu ez027993 from ez027993 dale ucdavis edu gary the burgermeister huckabay subject bill james player rating book message id c50wxy ox ucdavis edu sender usenet ucdavis edu organization harold brooks duck orange club ltd date mon apr gmt lines dave this has never happened to me before kirsch writes correction nied was the only player identified in this book as grade prospect who was exposed to the draft according to bill james in the stop the presses section preceding his player evaluations he valued nied at and said that nied value does not increase significantly as result of his selection although he did catch break getting away from the strongest rotation in baseball thought bill james latest book completely and totally sucked bought it but will not purchase anything of his ever again without thoroughly looking at it first what tripe the book is inconsistent and filled with selective analysis james claims to be looking forward and then makes some absolutely bizarre statements of value not only that but got the impression he probably glanced at the book for about an hour before he put his name on it to say was disappointed is grand understatement gary huckabay kevin kerr the al feldstein of the mid living argument for if there anything we love more than huge existence of parallel sig it someone quoting lines to add universes or new ones and consecutive posts too path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse decwrl olivea uunet news claremont edu pomona claremont edu jaufrecht from jaufrecht pomona claremont edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject dodgers newsletter message id a95c a0cbe0e8 pomona claremont edu date apr gmt article pomona a95c a0cbe0e8 sender news news claremont edu the news system reply to jaufrecht pomona claremont edu organization pomona college lines could somebody please tell me if there is dodgers newsletter on the net and if so how to subscribe thanks joel path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu ux1 cso uiuc edu usenet ucs indiana edu news from dwarner journalism indiana edu david newsgroups rec sport baseball subject marlins win marlins win message id c51buv kln usenet ucs indiana edu date apr gmt article usenet c51buv kln sender news usenet ucs indiana edu usenet news system reply to dwarner journalism indiana edu organization indiana university lines nntp posting host poppy journalism indiana edu only caught the tail end of this one on espn does anyone have report look at all that teal bleah david dwarner journalism indiana edu blue riddle productions it on the rap is an art ep is coming out on tape this time for real mail me for the path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net sol ctr columbia edu usenet ucs indiana edu master cs rose hulman edu master cs rose hulman edu news from rickert nextwork rose hulman edu john rickert newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re no joke rockies have attendance record date apr gmt organization computer science department at rose hulman lines distribution usa message id ppvfsinncph master cs rose hulman edu references apr2 dvorak amd com reply to rickert nextwork rose hulman edu john rickert nntp posting host g215a nextwork rose hulman edu in article apr2 dvorak amd com twhite mozart amd com tom white writes the highest single game attendance was game of the world series october at the la coliseum white sox over dodgers gate officially largest regular season game again in la for the first game in the city of angels opening day april home opener anyway the rockies might really nail the record the record attendance for doubleheader is larger but since dh are all but nonexistent nowadays why bother listing it wasn there an new york at cleveland game in the late jhon rickert rickert nextwork rose hulman edu prediction for marlins wins rockies wins path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse emory gatech prism gt0523e from gt0523e prism gatech edu michael andre mule newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re tickets etc message id hydra gatech edu date apr gmt article hydra references c4s1uy qa odin corp sgi com apr1 rigel econ distribution usa organization georgia institute of technology lines let look at the effects of inflation on superstars salaries read once that the babe made one year and that was about as good as it got for him let assume he made that in not sure of the figures but know in the ballpark pun intended today assuming yearly inflation rate which is an understatement if not accurate his measly salary would be worth fv just over assuming inflation is average of around fv almost didn crunch these numbers beforehand these numbers might lead one to believe that today players are slightly overpaid the babe appears to have made then what today average to above average players make now perfectly accurate salary year of salary and average inflation rate would make this analysis more accurate but don think off by much chop chop michael mule michael andre mule georgia institute of technology atlanta georgia uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism gt0523e internet gt0523e prism gatech edu newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech news feed peachnet edu umn edu x239 psych umn edu khansen from khansen staff tc umn edu kevin hansen subject re scott erickson message id khansen staff tc umn edu sender news news2 cis umn edu usenet news administration nntp posting host x239 psych umn edu organization minnesota twin family study univerity of minnesota references news duke edu date mon apr gmt lines in article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes path news1 cis umn edu umn edu news feed peachnet edu gatech concert duke news duke edu bchm biochem duke edu from fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush newsgroups rec sport baseball subject scott erickson message id news duke edu date apr gmt sender news news duke edu organization biochemistry lines nntp posting host bruchner biochem duke edu usa today reports that he may be going on the dl arm pains of an unspecified nature further news would be appreciated eric roush fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu am marxist of the groucho sort grafitti paris tanstaafl although the internet comes close erickson did go on the day dl with pulled muscle in his left side near rib cage he is on until no news as to who the twins will bring up kevin hansen mn twin family study university of minnesota khansen staff tc umn edu contact university of minnesota women basketball theory guides experiment decides izaak kolthoff path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu cs utexas edu uunet meaddata brian from brian meaddata com brian curran newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re espn tbs games message id pptv1 mgb meaddata meaddata com date apr gmt article meaddata pptv1 mgb references apr93 lafibm lafayette edu distribution world organization mead data central dayton oh lines nntp posting host taurus meaddata com in article apr93 lafibm lafayette edu vb30 lafibm lafayette edu vb30 writes does anyone know where can get list of nationally televised games such as espn and tbs live on the east coast and like to catch as many giants games as possibly can this list is published every week in baseball weekly brian curran mead data central brian meaddata com that was not swimming that was bathing german reporter after watching olympic superstar swimmer mark spitz get badly beaten during comeback race path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc news service uci edu cerritos edu arizona edu violet ccit arizona edu f67709907 newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re finnally the phils have support message id apr5 violet ccit arizona edu from f67709907 violet ccit arizona edu greg franklin date apr mst references fjqpau00wblm1z50r andrew cmu edu c4x9xa ew news udel edu distribution world local organization university of arizona nntp posting host violet nntp posting user f67709907 lines in article c4x9xa ew news udel edu philly brahms udel edu robert hite writes in article fjqpau00wblm1z50r andrew cmu edu anuj gupta ag4i andrew cmu edu writes everytime have written on the net about the possibility of successfuls season by the philadelphia phillies have gotten ripped from everybody from pittsburgh to calcutta but if all the ignoramouses care to look at this week baseball weekly they will see that not the only one who considers then as division winners the rest of the most respected baseball writers in the country do as well and these guys certainly know what they re talking about every bozo from pittsburgh to calcutta will just have to sit up and take notice this phils team in an offensive juggernaut which is going to score lot of runs and put up ton of hits on the scoreboard you people out there are going to be sick of seeing phillies scattered all over every offensive league leaders category in the newspaper these guys hit through spring training well before getting no hit yesterday but they had plane to catch minutes after the game ended so they re minds weren in it up to this point really thought this had been written by pro sdcn anti mediot poster blessed with certain talent for sarcasm and biting remarks somebody like me for instance the lurid overstatements were obviously intended to humiliate the original poster now on top of the great offense they have slightly above average pitching staff which has lot of youth and promise if the pitchers do their part and mitch keeps blown saves to minimum look for another pennant out in left field at the vet robert hite michael jack schmidt for commissioner but then the scales were lifted from my eyes looks like robert is really being serious oh well compare the performance of the phillies with the edition which had outstanding run producers at every position except ss yet finished at frustrating sub level the folks didn ever amount to anything and neither will the squad imho any other parallels with previous years teams for this year editions in the style of braves orioles greg mockingbird franklin interracial mixing encompasses lot lot more f67709907 ccit arizona edu than mingling between g7 races robohen things one wishes to see the moon flowers the face of dear one well performed no the furnishings of tea cottage the real thoughts of one lover and her letter all famous places newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net newsserver jvnc net stevens tech edu vaxc stevens tech edu u96 msopher from u96 msopher vaxc stevens tech edu subject with surge in the last two weeks message id apr5 vaxc stevens tech edu lines sender news dmi stevens tech edu usenet news system organization stevens institute of technology date mon apr gmt ladies and gentlemen boys and girls lend me your ears for but moment the national legue eastern division champions will be the philadelphia phillies one hundred and ten percent guarantee chamberlain hollins dykstra incaviglia jackson williams daulton greene kruk mulholland rivera thompson duncan watch us soar in path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu husc news harvard edu hsdndev wupost uunet dziuxsolim rutgers edu pilot njin net gajarsky newsgroups rec sport baseball subject quick way to tell if your local beat writer is dumb message id apr pilot njin net from gajarsky pilot njin net bob gajarsky hobokenite date apr gmt organization somewhere in hoboken lines jayson stark trhink that him fits perfectly in this category anyone who writes dean palmer has homers at this pace he ll have home runs should be shot if at the end of april he has and anyone writes at this pace he ll have homers they shouldbe shot too bob gaj path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu husc news harvard edu hsdndev wupost uunet dziuxsolim rutgers edu pilot njin net gajarsky newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re mike francesa predictions message id apr pilot njin net from gajarsky pilot njin net bob gajarsky hobokenite date apr gmt references apr2 porthos cc bellcore com apr2 ulkyvx louisville edu apr5 porthos cc bellcore com apr5 princeton edu organization somewhere in hoboken lines hmm thought francesca predictions always hovered at or below especially in the nfl not counting college football bowl day he nice analyst for explaining past tense and for mapping out what plays teams might do but for predicting the future he only looks good whne compared to russo bob gaj path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu husc news harvard edu hsdndev yale gumby wupost emory europa eng gtefsd com gatech news feed peachnet edu umn edu staff tc umn edu kirsch newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re finnally the phils have support message id c515ww iu9 news2 cis umn edu from kirsch staff tc umn edu dave almost cursed the jays kirsch date apr gmt sender news news2 cis umn edu usenet news administration references apr3 jarvis csri toronto edu apr3 ulkyvx louisville edu c4yxmj ble news udel edu organization li carlos and the hormones nntp posting host staff tc umn edu lines in article c4yxmj ble news udel edu philly bach udel edu robert hite writes most of tirade deleted have an editor and know how to use it okay we ve been conservative and added about wins so far now we re adding about more wins thanks to the expansion teams okay thats wins lesse dipshit math genuious hmmm think thats good enough to win the worse division in baseball next time before you say something foolish get clue first either this is an example of great sarcasm or really really worried dave hung like jim acker slider kirsch blue jays do it again in kirsch staff tc umn edu new quotes out of context not to beat dead horse but it been couple weeks this disappoints me punishments discharges jackhammering stephen lawrence newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov ames decwrl netcomsv netcom com mss from mss netcom com mark singer subject re young catchers message id mssc51042 l9j netcom com organization netcom online communications services login guest references blue cis pitt edu mssc50p03 cpg netcom com blue cis pitt edu date mon apr gmt lines in article blue cis pitt edu genetic pitt edu david tate writes mss netcom com mark singer said meant that one should not let the exception make the rule it not an exception good players come up young most players who come up young will be good this has always been the rule are most players who come up young always good when they re young or later worse it not shift this is the way it has always been several detailed studies of this have been done and they ve all shown that players aren coming up any younger or older than in the past and they aren playing any more or less in the minors than they used to the only thing that shifts is our memories of the good old days damn was afraid you would say that but all after the fact which makes it not applicable to the current discussion which is about how you decide whether to play the rookie who hasn established himself in the majors over the mediocre veteran the padres played santiago that year because they clearly had nobody else worth playing well perhaps if the braves had no one else worth playing this year it would be lopez in there but they do have others worth playing at least in their opinion and happen to agree both of these young men were highly touted defensive catchers expected to be among the best ever in baseball not by rec sport baseball consensus that may sound like an incredibly arrogant comment but ve found that the sdcn consensus when one exists is right far more often than the media consensus or the opinions of baseball people affiliated with mlb can believe that newbie here so ll take your word but alomar is fine defensive catcher which was my statement above that is solid reason for bringing him up at tender age as long as they feel he can also hit bit lopez does not have such consensus about his defensive prowess and imho that is enough to give him that dreaded seasoning don know who knows suppose the same people or similar who know he will be better than some other catcher these are of course just differing opinions read that his arm is not that strong suppose somewhere there is some measurement of sb ratios and that he is still learning to call game that latter skill may be difficult to project on someone without an intimate knowledge of his performance but it is tangible skill disagree in that don think it is tangible skill any more than leadership is don deny that it is real skill and that some catchers may be much better than others at it but really don see any way that we could ever know who they are nichols law of catcher defense is eerily accurate far too often for me to take defensive assessments of catchers very seriously sorry new don know nichols law don believe in catchers era but am interested in pitchers eras with different catchers any info on that absolutely the evidence is piling up year after year the only other alternative is that the braves really don know that their young players are on average better than their current starters not ruling out that kind of gross incompetence but think the salary schedule explanation is more charitable in other words we know more than they do so the only logic behind different decision than we would make must be financial presume we feel this way about other franchises than atlanta no consider we know that the braves are about the strongest team in baseball right now even with olson and lemke and nixon and bream in the lineup they have as good chance of repeating as champs this year as any team ever has it actually makes some sense to say rather than making our team marginally better this year by bringing up the young studs and dumping the elderly let go ahead and compete this year with what we have and then bring up the studs only as we have to so that we ll still have them under reserve three years from now and beyond when the current team will be collecting pensions is it fair to the young players no does it make organizational sense think it does well if it does make organizational sense one can hardly fault them for their decisions mean please don tell me how to run my business especially when being successful could make it or wins if you let me bring up lopez listen bobby like to but the way see it if he hits the big club this year we ll be paying mega arbitration bucks down the road in couple of years and there no way want to do that and continues with we can win without him and then keep winning next year with him how that sure you could be right you could also be smoking some illegal substance hey that joke don get offended please hey love to be wrong about this if you think it unlikely love to know why don cite anybody innate ethical rectitude though unless you know them personally well can cite anyone ethical rectitude because don know what it means but again if it makes organizational sense then so be it baseball is business and if there is solid business reason for keeping lopez on the farm then that what the braves should do happen to believe that it baseball decision while you from your armchair may disagee don think there is lot of evidence to suggest the decision they made predicted it among large guffaws from several at the start of spring training think it is very normal decision to have made it is certainly more reversible than to have started lopez in the bigs and have released one of their catchers sure it may be conservative it may also be logical don know what ethics have to do with it seems like pretty good common sense to me the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu ux1 cso uiuc edu usenet ucs indiana edu news from dwarner journalism indiana edu david newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re nl east champion phillies message id c51j5c amx usenet ucs indiana edu date apr gmt article usenet c51j5c amx references c4v88x gw news udel edu sender news usenet ucs indiana edu usenet news system reply to dwarner journalism indiana edu organization indiana university lines nntp posting host poppy journalism indiana edu robert hite writes here are the projected lineups benches rotation and bullpen for the national league east champion philadelphia phillies think the only phillies in effect here are philly blunts of course if this all becomes true ll be the first to smoke one myself david dwarner journalism indiana edu blue riddle productions it on the rap is an art ep is coming out on tape this time for real mail me for the newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net newsserver jvnc net siemens princeton crux roger from roger crux princeton edu roger lustig subject re mike francesa predictions message id apr5 princeton edu originator news nimaster sender news princeton edu usenet news system nntp posting host crux princeton edu reply to roger astro princeton edu roger lustig organization princeton university references apr2 porthos cc bellcore com apr2 ulkyvx louisville edu apr5 porthos cc bellcore com date mon apr gmt lines in article apr5 porthos cc bellcore com dick1 herahera cc bellcore com vaughn richard writes in article apr2 ulkyvx louisville edu pjtier01 ulkyvx louisville edu writes in article apr2 porthos cc bellcore com dick1 herahera cc bellcore com vaughn richard writes mike francesa mentioned his baseball picks in passing on the radio yesterday being that this is francesa talkin the opinions are well worth consideration indeed after all he was the wizard foresaw the year of the big east in the ncaa tournament unfortunatly none of those teams made it into the sweet sixteen much less new orleans neither did he overall mike francesa has an outstanding prediction record overall how do you figure ignore him at your own peril so far my radio hasn exploded from not being tuned to roger path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net agate dog ee lbl gov network ucsd edu cogsci king from king cogsci ucsd edu jonathan king newsgroups rec sport baseball subject move we won see was why the redflops can but won win date apr gmt organization university of california san diego lines message id pq3ue grv network ucsd edu references c50qln dn ulowell ulowell edu nntp posting host cogsci ucsd edu summary it would be tragic if ted simmons were to pick up mo vaughn stwombly cs ulowell edu steve twombly writes mo vaughn can hit in the spring mo vaughn can only hit during the season excellent point hope to god that ted simmons doesn get the weird idea of trading for the guy and if he does he had better not include jeff king in the deal oh god what if he traded zane smith and jeff king for vaughn and greg blosser it would be worse than the nichols curse hmm guess that doesn sound sincere enough oh well at least tried jking newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net wupost uunet newsgate watson ibm com yktnews watson ibm com watson fenway mjones from mjones fenway aix kingston ibm com mike jones subject re my belated predictions nl sender watson ibm com message id mjones fenway date apr gmt reply to mjones donald aix kingston ibm com references news duke edu apr3 mnemosyne cs du edu apr pilot njin net mssc4zyo8 jsc netcom com organization ibm aix esa development kingston ny lines mss netcom com mark singer writes in article apr pilot njin net gajarsky pilot njin net bob gajarsky hobokenite writes javier lopez is better catcher than greg olson but has there ever in the history of baseball been year old or younger rookie catcher who compared favorably among all league catchers in terms of defense and brought bat wasn it sandy alomar who was supposed to be that good in his rookie year not wasn it benito santiago who was supposed to be that good in his rookie year not hrm sandy alomar year old rookie games threw out few baserunners benito santiago year old rookie games he threw out few baserunners too ivan rodriguez year old rookies games didn exactly suck behind the plate can continue this thread with the others mentioned but you get the point you and others seem to be so quick to dismiss the seasoned veterans in favor of the hot young rookies perhaps just perhaps the management team of the pennant winning braves knows something more than you do and perhaps what they know is that very very few and year old rookies come up to the majors and make an impact true which only makes it more important to realize when you have one of the few lopez season last year adjusted to major league equivalencies was hrs how bad does he have to be behind the plate for that to not be better than olson mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com would not admire hitting against ryne duren because if he ever hit you in the head you might be in the past tense casey stengel newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen uunet usc sdd hp com hpscit sc hp com cupnews0 cup hp com news1 boi hp com rdetweil from rdetweil boi hp com richard detweiler subject re espn and expansion sender news boi hp com news server project message id c5125x jqt boi hp com date mon apr gmt distribution usa references news duke edu khansen staff tc umn edu c5109u c0 ucdavis edu organization hewlett packard lines in article c5109u c0 ucdavis edu itlm013 dale ucdavis edu donnie trump writes was watching peter gammons on espn last night and he got me little confused while talking about expansion he started mentioning people who might benefit from the fringe players they ll be facing mcgriff hitting home runs sheffield getting rbi and glavine winning games this was of course all in reference to what happened the other times that baseball has expanded early late late what really confused me though was the mention of al players who would do well next year specifically roger clemens winning games and the likes of mcgwire and gonzalez hitting home runs my question is how in the hell will the rockies marlins help the al the last time looked there wasn lot of talent jumping leagues did miss something dennis cleary dfcleary ucdavis edu wondered the same thing when he first mentioned it thought he was just making mistake but then he said it over and over and then in the examples from other years he gave stats for players from both leagues even when only one league expanded so since stats never lie guess there is an effect on both leagues because the expansion draft takes talent from both leagues equally making every team in both leagues dilute their major league talent by calling up players that normally they would not have had there not been expansion make sense from boell hpcc01 corp hp com donald boell date mon apr gmt subject rockies opening day cast message id hpcc01 corp hp com organization the hp corporate notes server path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com hpscit sc hp com hplextra hpcc05 hpcc01 boell newsgroups rec sport baseball lines here is the colorado rockies openning day cast pitchers scott aldred mlb totals games era saves andy ashby games era saves willie blair games era saves butch henry games era saves darren holmes games era saves david neid games era saves jeff parrett games era saves steve reed games era saves bruce ruffin games era saves bryn smith games era saves gary wayne games era saves the rest joe girardi games hr rbi sb danny sheaffer games hr rbi sb freddie benavides ss games hr rbi sb vinny castilla ss games hr rbi sb andres galarraga games hr rbi sb charlie hayes games hr rbi sb jim tatum games hr rbi sb eric young games hr rbi sb dante bichette of games hr rbi sb daryl boston of games hr rbi sb jerald clark of games hr rbi sb alex cole of games hr rbi sb gerald young of games hr rbi sb dale murphy of seasons hr rbi path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu husc news harvard edu hsdndev yale gumby wupost zaphod mps ohio state edu swrinde gatech pitt edu cadet blue cis pitt edu valentin newsgroups rec sport baseball subject rockies and rangers fans please help me message id blue cis pitt edu from valentin pitt edu shawn hernan date apr gmt sender news pitt edu organization university of pittsburgh useragent nuntius v1 d12 xxmessage id a7e61e0c2e01fe53 cadet blue cis pitt edu xxdate mon apr gmt lines greetings baseballers have choice of two more or less identical conferences to attend one in denver and one in dallas both may could some kind rockies or rangers they do play in the dallas area right fans please let me know if there are home dates for that week love to catch game thanks shawn path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen saimiri primate wisc edu aplcen apl jhu edu jhunix hcf jhu edu jhunix hcf jhu edu not for mail from admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu steve liu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject opening day of date apr organization homewood academic computing johns hopkins university baltimore md usa lines sender admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu distribution usa expires message id pq6gbinnc7o jhunix hcf jhu edu references khansen staff tc umn edu c5109u c0 ucdavis edu c5125x jqt boi hp com nntp posting host jhunix hcf jhu edu summary baltimore not looking stellar the just lost to the rangers few minutes ago was not too happy about the pitching of rick sutcliffe runs in innings in the this puts me in remembering the season after we didn do much over winter and we wound up in th now know that mussina mcdonald and rhodes are better pitching prospects than ballard and milacki but are any other oriole fans scared out there admiral steve liu other scores as of now cincy over montreal think florida is leading la in the th braves vs cubs in the th futility of cubs batting haunting them yanks beat the tribe believe admiral steve liu internet address admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu commander in chief of the security division of the pi club earth chapter president of the earth chapter of the pi club founded april world champions baltimore orioles why not series in the yards stanley cup champions washington capitals committee for the liberation and intergration of terrifying organisms and their rehabilitation into society the only problem is that the abbreviation is clitoris from the polymorph episode of red dwarf the bangles are the greatest female rock band that ever existed this sig has been brought to you by frungy the sport of kings my god man drilling holes through his head is not the answer dr mccoy you know susanna hoffs has really nice ass comment by flanagan the pi club creating the largest signatures for the past nine months path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester news bbn com noc near net news centerline com uunet wupost emory europa eng gtefsd com gatech concert duke news duke edu bchm biochem duke edu from fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re wohlers to minors message id news duke edu date apr gmt references apr2 wkuvx1 bitnet phoph og5 menudo uh edu apr2 rigel econ uga edu hydra gatech edu sender news news duke edu organization biochemistry lines nntp posting host bruchner biochem duke edu in article hydra gatech edu ccastmm prism gatech edu mike marler writes in apr2 rigel econ uga edu shannonr moe coe uga edu shannon reeves cntr for ed tech writes at times it seems as if no others in the bullpen are used by cox for middle relief marvin only pitched innings this spring he is supposed to be over his surgery and am wondering if cox is still trying to decide who to use as middle relief and thinks that marvin might be his better choice early in the season would immediately give mcmchael many chances to pitch after spring and then use bedrock and freeman after that am wondering how he intends to use howell whatever happened to senior smoke do you mean juan berenguer he was traded for mark davis in the middle of last season exchanged one stiff for another as berenguer hadn come back from his injury in think he retired now anyhow as middle relief marvin ain that bad he at least can pitch couple of innings or do mop up work don know much about mcmichael was he the mexican league guy but everybody else in the pen is inning man except maybe mercker eric roush fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu am marxist of the groucho sort grafitti paris tanstaafl although the internet comes close newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen sdd hp com zaphod mps ohio state edu wupost uunet psinntp wrldlnk usenet from dennis parslow p00421 psilink com subject re minnesota pitching in reply to fjvbvy00iuz86yo5 andrew cmu edu message id p00421 psilink com sender usenet worldlink com nntp posting host organization performance systems int date mon apr gmt mailer psilink dos lines date mon apr from karim edvard ahmed ka0k andrew cmu edu since haven been able to keep up with baseball much this season have few questions about my favorite team the minnesota twins how good does their rotation look the last heard the order is tapani erikson mahomes banks and some guy ve never heard of sounds pretty pathetic to me well maybe it will be banks is year old prospect who hasn matured as quickly as they would have liked mahomes is year old who is very highly touted tapani and erickson are also young and have looked very good this spring the last spot was between jim deshaies formerly of houston and and mike trombley deshaies hasn looked very good this spring so believe that the spot has gone to trombley although they hadn wanted starters this unproven personally believe very highly in mahomes and trombley who is playing short and third well scott leius is the shortstop he played mostly last year but was ss in the minors and moved back after gagne left to is split maybe between pagliarulo who has had great spring and terry jorgenson good looking kid who has languished in portland for years not sure how the time will be divided but they seem to be happy with what they have here like jorgenson but fear they might give too much time to pags how winfield doing sorry can help you here dennis newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen malgudi oar net zaphod mps ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu usenet ins cwru edu gatech news feed peachnet edu umn edu staff tc umn edu kirsch from kirsch staff tc umn edu dave almost cursed the jays kirsch subject re my belated predictions nl message id c516lq j9n news2 cis umn edu sender news news2 cis umn edu usenet news administration nntp posting host staff tc umn edu organization li carlos and the hormones references news duke edu apr3 mnemosyne cs du edu date mon apr gmt lines well as long as folks are sharing their esteemed wisdom li karnak sez al west al east nl west nl east chicago toronto atlanta st louis texas new york cincinnati montreal minnesota baltimore houston new york oakland boston los angeles philadelphia seattle detroit san diego pittsburgh kansas city milwaukee san fran chicago california cleveland colorado florida details to follow later pick it apart as you like also if anyone is still taking entries for prediction pools contests could you snag mine and add it to the list thanks just glad it opening day makes up little bit for the gloom doom weather patterns here lundy dave hung like jim acker slider kirsch blue jays do it again in kirsch staff tc umn edu new quotes out of context not to beat dead horse but it been couple weeks this disappoints me punishments discharges jackhammering stephen lawrence newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech concert uvaarpa liberty mmontgom from mmontgom liberty uc wlu edu matthew montgomery subject re with surge in the last two weeks message id apr5 liberty uc wlu edu date mon apr gmt references apr5 vaxc stevens tech edu organization washington lee university newsreader tin version pl8 lines watch us soar in shouldn that be watch us stoned in or maybe watch us suck in or even watch us sore in matt montgomery no really like the phillies path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel wupost uunet noc near net transfer stratus com jjmhome schunix kshus from kshus schunix uucp christopher shustakg newsgroups rec sport baseball subject where can find baseball statistics message id apr5 schunix uucp date apr gmt organization schunix public access unix for worcester county ma usa lines am interested in uncovering statistics on boston red sox players from march present want to look at changes in batting average hits multi hit games runs stolen bases and on base during every game where can find this information do any sports magazines log this info or do have to go directly to the ball club thanks for the info kip path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel wupost cs utexas edu uunet noc near net saturn caps maine edu maine maine edu io21087 organization university of maine system date mon apr edt from io21087 maine maine edu message id io21087 maine maine edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject grateful dead lines being baseball fan and fan of the above mentioned band was wondering if anyone could clue me in on whether the dead or members of sang the national anthem at todays giant opener would imagine that it is bit too early for anyone to know but an answer would be greatly appreciated curious robert robert margesson umaine hockey park st c5 black bears orono me ncaa champs newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel wupost uunet newsflash concordia ca nstn ns ca cs dal ca ug cs dal ca niguma from niguma ug cs dal ca gord niguma subject williams sent down yanks win al east message id c515xj fdu cs dal ca sender usenet cs dal ca usenet news nntp posting host ug cs dal ca organization math stats cs dalhousie university halifax ns canada distribution na date mon apr gmt lines well it really isn this cut and dry but as jay fan the thing feared worst has happened the yanks sent down williams and are going to start williams in cf also believe they kept wickman and millitello in their rotation which is much nicer than that kaminiecki and mike witt combo thought they throw out their to the slaughterhouse because of their experience granted witt might be good but think that they used rationale to keep the youngsters up and not given the job to witt because he was good pitcher and has experience the yanks are showing that they are taking positive strides forwards the jays with the loss of dave stewart are looking at gigantic holes in their pitching staff the orioles should also be there in the end gord niguma to salvage the season let jj olerud win mvp newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester news bbn com noc near net uunet caen uvaarpa murdoch delmarva evsc virginia edu drw3l from drw3l delmarva evsc virginia edu david robert walker subject re bo was good player you shorts plus idiots message id c50m9d dv murdoch acc virginia edu sender usenet murdoch acc virginia edu organization university of virginia references apr4 otago ac nz apr4 princeton edu apr5 otago ac nz date mon apr gmt lines in article apr5 otago ac nz guilford otago ac nz writes in article apr4 princeton edu roger crux princeton edu roger lustig writes in article apr4 otago ac nz guilford otago ac nz writes bo jackson kcr kcr kcr cws maj maj this is what jackson looked like in with everything converted to neutral park on the basis of run production his equivalent average started at in was up to in and in so let us say he had established in his last two seasons level of play that is good very good in fact but it probably doesn make the top ten in the league the th best eqa in the al in was dave winfield thomas was first at first in the nl was bonds an incroyable tenth was bip roberts but is better than any season in the past five years by joe carter it is about what mattingly had in what felix jose had the last two years just ahead of time raines five year average better than ryan klesko mles he got more attention from the media than was warranted from his baseball playing though his hype was lot better than his hitting that is the basis for the net comments about him being overrated the media would have you beleive he was great hitter think he was good maybe very good hitter he was imo something like the th best hitter in the majors clay newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu asuvax ukma bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu staff tc umn edu kirsch from kirsch staff tc umn edu dave almost cursed the jays kirsch subject re young catchers message id c5186c k2g news2 cis umn edu sender news news2 cis umn edu usenet news administration nntp posting host staff tc umn edu organization li carlos and the hormones references mssc4zyo8 jsc netcom com apr5 midway uchicago edu mssc50dfw netcom com date mon apr gmt lines in article mssc50dfw netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes at age alomar had brilliant rookie year true he was limited by injuries in his sophomore season but his numbers both that yaer and the year following were quite mediocre this season the same bill james projects ba of ops of the same bill james why do you say that it sounds like you re suggesting bill james had something to do with overhyping the kid to death au contraire he was fairly critical of him after his roy campaign noting that he wasn all world as catcher or hitter he called him basically average when everyone else in the media was predicting the next johnny bench or roy campanella both of these young men were highly touted defensive catchers expected to be among the best ever in baseball the reports read indicate that lopez is very ordinary defensively which reports are those the dodgers options are parrish and hernandez and now only carlos piazza is as long as he continues with his very hot bat they will keep him in the lineup because they need the offensive production when he cools off look for the much better defensive catcher hernandez only to play more like hernandez lot but if piazza can catch the ball you ve gotta play him imho he much better hitter although hernandez isn bad hitter right now it sounds like piazza will catch most of the time and hernandez will be candiotti caddy since he can catch the knuckler as long as they play up to their abilities the dodgers could have very good catching tandem the braves options are berryhill and olson agree that olson is nothing special but do think berryhill is better than many people on rsb believe but both the braves catchers are very good defensively calling game blocking the plate throwing and although they are somewhat weak offenivsively they play on team that is not so much in need of another big bat think both are overrated defensively see nichols law of catcher defense but that something that difficult to prove or disprove from your viewpoint or mine about the only tangible thing we can look at is opponent sb and that clouded by how well your pitchers hold runners catchers era is possibility but it subject to way too many biases as for them playing on team that is not so much in need of another big bat disagree here too about the only chink in the braves armor is that they re weak offensively at several positions cf ss if belliard plays unless bream and hunter form another super platoon and very weak defensively if blauser plays like to see the braves give at least one of mel nieves javy lopez or chipper jones shot but much like the talent rich jays of recent years they ll be conservative and stick with what they have not saying that wrong just conservative dave hung like jim acker slider kirsch blue jays do it again in kirsch staff tc umn edu new quotes out of context not to beat dead horse but it been couple weeks this disappoints me punishments discharges jackhammering stephen lawrence newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu asuvax ukma bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu myria lsmith from lsmith myria cs umn edu lance squiddie smith subject re quick way to tell if your local beat writer is dumb message id c5188a k34 news2 cis umn edu sender news news2 cis umn edu usenet news administration nntp posting host myria cs umn edu organization the little projective squids of the poor references apr pilot njin net distribution na date mon apr gmt lines in article apr pilot njin net gajarsky pilot njin net bob gajarsky hobokenite writes jayson stark think that him fits perfectly in this category could be there is jayson stark that writes weekly for some press syndicate and also for baseball america anyone who writes dean palmer has homers at this pace he ll have home runs should be shot if at the end of april he has and anyone writes at this pace he ll have homers they shouldbe shot too stark has done this sort of thing but he has never been serious about it he usually states that this sort of projection is useless at the top of such columns think he did it one season and some manager was projected to be thrown out of games and some hitter could expect to be plunked times stark does some really funny stuff his weekly baseball reviews are good collections of strange things that happened during the previous week he also regularly prints kinerisms lance cr2o3 h2o smith moments after being named manager for the lsmith cs umn edu oakland mr peanut was crushed by special limited edition red headed loner wielding an aluminum bat bb signature murder at the mausoleum newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech news feed peachnet edu umn edu staff tc umn edu kirsch from kirsch staff tc umn edu dave almost cursed the jays kirsch subject re young catchers message id c518wo kfy news2 cis umn edu sender news news2 cis umn edu usenet news administration nntp posting host staff tc umn edu organization li carlos and the hormones references blue cis pitt edu mssc50p03 cpg netcom com apr5 cs cornell edu date mon apr gmt lines in article apr5 cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward theodorus redsox fannus fischer writes sorry this doesn fly the good players have always been ready for the majors early how many hofers were not contributing major leaguers by the time they were that brings up an interesting point anyone else catch espn piece about prospects and the relationship between age career length mvps and hall of fame members it was part of their preseason special basically they looked at players that had amassed plate appearances or abs by the time they were and noticed some interesting things for starters they found out such players comprised the majority of mvps in the history of the game they also found out such players represented the majority of the players in the hall of fame the kicker though was that they actually did some number crunching and found that such players careers lasted much longer than the careers of players not in that group they also found that these players produced at both greater level of performance and produced over twice the raw totals hrs etc of the other players the first group outhit the second something like to in raw ba and blew away the second group in such categories as hrs bs rbis etc it was the most impressive thing ve seen on espn in recent memory guess ray knight makes his rebuttal tonight dave hung like jim acker slider kirsch blue jays do it again in kirsch staff tc umn edu new quotes out of context not to beat dead horse but it been couple weeks this disappoints me punishments discharges jackhammering stephen lawrence newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester news bbn com ulowell cs ulowell edu stwombly from stwombly cs ulowell edu steve twombly subject red sox win st message id c514ew ct1 ulowell ulowell edu sender usenet ulowell ulowell edu news manager ulowell organization umass lowell computer science date mon apr gmt lines bosox royals wp clemens lp appier key hit mike greenwell out tripple with bases loaded path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen nigel msen com sdd hp com zaphod mps ohio state edu malgudi oar net ucbeh san uc edu ucunix san uc edu nest ece uc edu babbage ece uc edu flash ece uc edu rbd newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re quick way to tell if your local beat writer is dumb message id c517fu bfh babbage ece uc edu from rbd flash ece uc edu bobby davis date mon apr gmt sender root babbage ece uc edu operator references apr pilot njin net organization university of cincinnati nntp posting host flash ece uc edu lines bob gajarsky hobokenite writes jayson stark trhink that him fits perfectly in this category anyone who writes dean palmer has homers at this pace he ll have home runs should be shot bob think that stark does this sort of thing as joke not as serious prediction don really see why we should shoot him for that the guys who ought to be shot are the ones who keep claiming how great the royals chances are in the al west since all evidence indicates that they aren joking and actually believe it bob davis rbd thor ece uc edu newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen uunet cs utexas edu uwm edu linac uchinews kimbark thf2 from thf2 kimbark uchicago edu ted frank subject re young catchers message id apr5 midway uchicago edu sender news uchinews uchicago edu news system reply to thf2 midway uchicago edu organization university of chicago references mssc50p03 cpg netcom com apr5 cs cornell edu c518wo kfy news2 cis umn edu date mon apr gmt lines in article c518wo kfy news2 cis umn edu kirsch staff tc umn edu dave almost cursed the jays kirsch writes that brings up an interesting point anyone else catch espn piece about prospects and the relationship between age career length mvps and hall of fame members it was part of their preseason special wow espn can repeat eleven year old bill james research literally check the abstract it was the most impressive thing ve seen on espn in recent memory perhaps in they ll be as reliable as an average sdcn guess ray knight makes his rebuttal tonight oops maybe not ted frank however teel should have mentioned that though thf2 kimbark uchicago edu his advice is legally sound if you follow it the of law school you will probably wind up in jail standard disclaimers james donald in misc legal newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu ukma netnews louisville edu ulkyvx louisville edu pjtier01 from pjtier01 ulkyvx louisville edu subject re finnally the phils have support sender news netnews louisville edu netnews message id apr5 ulkyvx louisville edu date mon apr gmt lines references fjqpau00wblm1z50r andrew cmu edu apr3 jarvis csri toronto edu apr3 ulkyvx louisville edu c4yxmj ble news udel edu nntp posting host ulkyvx louisville edu organization university of louisville in article c4yxmj ble news udel edu philly bach udel edu robert hite writes in article apr3 ulkyvx louisville edu pjtier01 ulkyvx louisville edu writes everytime have written on the net about the possibility of successfuls season by the philadelphia phillies have gotten ripped from everybody from pittsburgh to calcutta but if all the ignoramouses care to look at this week baseball weekly they will see that not the only one who considers then as division winners the rest of the most respected baseball writers in the country do as well and what was the reasoning of this genius writer that even though their pitching is at best sound they will win on the strength of their offense lesse offense offense thompson incaviglia offense wins division winners at least wins so wins wins thompson incaviglia therefore wins thompson incaviglia what did you learn in school today if you take math course and your teacher turns out to be rob rains run don walk to drop add tierney you obviously don know what the hell you re talking about no thompson and incaviglia don equal wins but ll take the two of them over stan javier and ruben amaro hr ab hr ab say this improvement should equate to or wins at least then ll take lenny dykstra who played games last year and project his numbers hits hr rbi sb over games thus hits hr rbi sb okay now we ll put these numbers in the leadoff hole and thus have to bump kruk hollins daulton rbi numbers up just tad now lesse they knocked in and respectively don you think it fair to add about or rbi to each they managed to knock in pretty nice amount of runs with leadoff hitter okay bozo do you think it fair to add maybe or more wins now oh and how can forget wes chamberlain ab hr rbi even with month and in aaa and horrible first half well project that over full season to get hr and rbi or so is that worth win or two finally take the worse pitching staff in the nl last year add the worse injury decimation of okay now we add danny jackson some health and full season for schilling is that worth at least wins okay we ve been conservative and added about wins so far now we re adding about more wins thanks to the expansion teams okay thats wins lesse dipshit math genuious hmmm think thats good enough to win the worse division in baseball next time before you say something foolish get clue first actually was simply relaying the reasoning of this so called genius bw writer agree the reasoning was foolish next time before you say something foolish be aware what you are responding to btw wins very funny tierney newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen uvaarpa maxwell tek2q from tek2q virginia edu todd karlin subject new uniforms message id apr5 virginia edu organization university of virginia date mon apr gmt lines usually one or two teams changes their logo or minor uniform change per season but the past few seasons have been incredible any thoughts on the new old reds uniforms remember seeing pete rose rookie card and unless miss my guess he was wearing the exact same duds the mets how about doc performance today have reinserted the mets patch on the shoulder and changed the mets insgnia on the front of the jersey to my knowledge it is the first time that has been changed since and it reminds me little of the dodger logo many teams have opted for return to previous style of uniform or at least uniforms that look more traditional phillies reds expos white sox padres etc and the once bright colors have been altered to gray the trend has also seen the newer baseball fields resembling the parks of the early years as opposed to the cookie cutter saucer stadiums construcrted throughout the sixties with salaries now reaching unbelievable highs no one in the comissioner office and inter league play on the horizon it nice to see that baseball at least looks like it was meant to be newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen zaphod mps ohio state edu usc elroy jpl nasa gov news claremont edu kbanaian pitzer claremont edu kbanaian from kbanaian bernard pitzer claremont edu king banaian subject re players overpaid message id kbanaian bernard pitzer claremont edu lines sender news news claremont edu the news system organization pitzer college references apr5 midway uchicago edu date mon apr gmt ted frank list of underpaid players was this juan guzman mussina castillo eldred rhodes militello rp rojas rp beck rp melendez rp hernandez rp nied rodriguez piazza thomas bagwell knoblauch barberie gomez palmer ss listach ss pena lf gonzalez cf lankford rf sanders of plantier what do all of these players have in common they do not qualify for arbitration they were never free agents it called the reserve clause look it up and year from now we will whine about how several of these guys are way overpaid and getting outrageous raises in arb humbug king sparky banaian no taxes no new taxes kbanaian pitzer claremont edu no old taxes we are taxed dept of economics pitzer college enough rep alan keyes latest gdp forecast please run alan newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen saimiri primate wisc edu ames sgi odin krill corp sgi com rickc from rickc krill corp sgi com richard casares subject vegas odds message id c51bkm cva odin corp sgi com sender news odin corp sgi com net news nntp posting host krill corp sgi com organization silicon graphics inc date mon apr gmt lines does anyone have list of vegas odds for teams making the world series appreciate mailing thanks rickc corp sgi com newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com decwrl netcomsv orchard la locus com prodnet la locus com cygnus la locus com aardvark from aardvark cygnus la locus com warren usui subject rec sport baseball fantasy message id apr05 locus com sender news locus com netnews organization locus computing corporation los angeles california date mon apr gmt lines april am participating in an nl league that uses standard rotisserie rules except that the following catagories are used for position players lowest batting average strike outs caught stealing errors for pitchers losses blown saves higest era taters allowed this is the fifth year that ve participated in this blowtisserie league last year won the pennant due primarily to the fact that had terrible pitching would like to lower my batting average which is rather high because do have jose offerman who made up for this by helping me lock first place in errors anyway someone offered andres gallaraga for bud black can afford to give up bud black because still have kyle abbott however am afraid of andres actually doing well this season should make the trade or not your comments will be appreciated warren usui one with the universe on scale from to path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen zaphod mps ohio state edu usc sdd hp com news cs indiana edu bsu cs bsu ucs uucp bjgood from bjgood leo bsuvc bsu edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject jim lefebvre is an idiot message id apr5 bsu ucs date apr gmt organization ball state university muncie in univ computing svc lines just wanted to let everyone know that have lost what little respect have for jim lefebvre after seeing today cubs game first of all how could he start maldonado over may after the way may played at the end of last year and the way he tore up the cactus league how could you let him sit the bench not to mention that right hander maddux started really blew my top when lefebvre pinch hit for rick wilkins with tommy shields how can you do that just because of the lefty righty thing too much is made of that wilkins is twice the hitter that shields is then the next batter was jose vizcaino one of the weakest hitters have ever seen and who had looked terrible at bat all day and lefebre let him hit while may still sat the bench think even arnie harris was stunned by this because he showed may sitting in the dugout while vizcaino was batting face it lefebvre has got to be the worst manager in baseball dishard cub fan path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse network ucsd edu usc wupost crcnis1 unl edu cse horan from horan cse unl edu mark horan newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re best second baseman message id pqvusinnmjm crcnis1 unl edu date apr gmt article crcnis1 pqvusinnmjm references netnews upenn edu mar29 sarah albany edu mar29 midway uchicago edu distribution usa organization university of nebraska lincoln lines nntp posting host cse unl edu thf2 ellis uchicago edu ted frank writes in article mar29 sarah albany edu js8484 albnyvms bitnet writes personally think that alomar is all hype he is producing incredibly now but in the long run he will never put up the numbers that sandberg has for this moment alomar may be the best but overall sandberg wins out by long shot when sandberg was alomar age he was putting up seasons with no power alomar oba is points higher than sandberg career high alomar career high in doubles and triples is higher than sandberg sandberg is still better than alomar but only because alomar hasn reached his full potential yet alomar got year headstart on sandberg he has hits sandberg didn have hits until he was and is likely to put up better career numbers than sandberg in everything except home runs he ll pass sandberg in stolen bases sometime in sandberg is not particulary known for his stolen bases what competition did alomar have sandberg came in year after ripken and the same year as boggs gwynn and the other magicians so less attention was given to sandberg alomar is the only one in his class to be worth mediocre besides the numbers don count national league pitchers are much better pitchers larry on someone elses account mark horan horan cse unl edu ianr053 unlvm path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen saimiri primate wisc edu usenet coe montana edu news washington edu hardy washington edu machman from machman hardy washington edu the machman newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re jim lefebvre is an idiot date apr gmt organization university of washington lines message id pql2tinnp4l shelley washington edu references apr5 bsu ucs nntp posting host hardy washington edu bjgood leo bsuvc bsu edu writes just wanted to let everyone know that have lost what little respect have for jim lefebvre after seeing today cubs game first of all how could he etc vizcaino was batting face it lefebvre has got to be the worst manager in baseball dishard cub fan hey he the only manager so far to lead the seattle mariners to winning season out of what fifteen give him some credit for that dave the machman machman washington edu david carroll oo big science hallelujah path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen malgudi oar net news ans net cmcl2 arizona dkl from dkl cs arizona edu david lowenthal newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re giants gm quinn is genius message id optima cs arizona edu date apr gmt references mcmath mcmathmac nlm nih gov optima cs arizona edu c50nh4 et odin corp sgi com organization of arizona cs dept tucson lines in article c50nh4 et odin corp sgi com luigi sgi com randy palermo writes will clark matt williams robbie thompson rod beck all came up through the giants system geez everyone comes up with clark williams thompson these guys were all up in that ancient history so in the last years noone right beck doesn count said solid years btw manwaring lead the ml last season in throwing out baserunners he is an excellent defensive catcher agree that his offensive skills are limited but he does seem to be improving on them let see what he does the help of pitchout every other pitch as remember even bob brenly had good throwout percentage under roger craig who loved to sacrifice the count for runners being thrown out of course he suffered from ball strike homers lot too am not big fan of manwaring dave path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen zaphod mps ohio state edu wupost emory europa eng gtefsd com gatech prism gt0523e from gt0523e prism gatech edu michael andre mule newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re harry and candy message id hydra gatech edu date apr gmt references rvesterm vma cc nd edu apr1 violet ccit arizona gt0523e prism gatech edu distribution world local organization georgia institute of technology lines but like the way he butchers andres galarraga name all lighten up on harry skip ll be like that in couple of years it comes out like gahlah rrrraggggah and don forget his frequent references to the great sf giant star bobby bonds harry great personality he the reason like cubs broadcasts it certainly not the quality of the team chop chop michael mule michael andre mule georgia institute of technology atlanta georgia uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism gt0523e internet gt0523e prism gatech edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester news crd ge com uunet zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu msuinfo netnews upenn edu netnews cc lehigh edu ns1 cc lehigh edu cpc4 from cpc4 ns1 cc lehigh edu connin patrick colgain newsgroups rec sport baseball subject east is best in baseball message id apr6 ns1 cc lehigh edu date apr gmt organization lehigh university lines is there any doubt that this is true after few down years the east is back to where it was in the early eighties with the emergence of the and the yanks it is far and away the best while the west has the best team in baseball and the reds aren bad either they have nothing else the giants astros and padres all have talent they do not have the all arounf teams that are found in the east and the dodgers just plain suck as for the rockies who knows the east has the defending champs and although they lost lot to free agency toronto is still one of the best in baseball the orioles have the preseason favorite to win the cy young in mike mussina and you can never forget about ripken the signings of harold baines and harold reynolds don hurt to much either although always liked bill ripken while they let lot go this summer randy milligan joe orsulak bill ripken bob milacki sam horn storm davis and craig lefferts they kept the heart of their team intact my predicted finish baltimore could be biased opinion ny yankees toronto milwaukee detroit boston cleveland would have been higher if not for the accident go path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu cs utexas edu uunet dziuxsolim rutgers edu pilot njin net gajarsky from gajarsky pilot njin net bob gajarsky hobokenite newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re my belated predictions nl message id apr pilot njin net date apr gmt article pilot apr references apr pilot njin net optima cs arizona edu apr pilot njin net mssc50qqu ei9 netcom com organization somewhere in hoboken lines briefly since off to sleep mle work pretty well for aa nd aaa players players who are and younger will tend to have explosions in their numbers whether mmle or not in the next years players who are and older at those levels generally have inflated mle they re about as reliable as having major league stats for player bob gaj path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu cs utexas edu uunet dziuxsolim rutgers edu pilot njin net gajarsky from gajarsky pilot njin net bob gajarsky hobokenite newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re quick way to tell if your local beat writer is dumb message id apr pilot njin net date apr gmt article pilot apr references apr pilot njin net c5188a k34 news2 cis umn edu distribution na organization somewhere in hoboken lines ok sorry about that didn realise he was being sarcastic about those sort of things but ll tell you mike lupica daily news usually says some pretty funny things in his shooting from the lip columns bob gaj newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester news crd ge com uunet gatech howland reston ans net newsserver jvnc net stevens tech edu vaxc stevens tech edu u96 msopher from u96 msopher vaxc stevens tech edu subject phils are still looking immaculate message id apr5 vaxc stevens tech edu lines sender news dmi stevens tech edu usenet news system organization stevens institute of technology date tue apr gmt ladies and gentleman step one was taken on the phils triumphant trip this year tonight yes that was english mulholland era after tonight game nice try drabek ninja jew newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester news crd ge com uunet europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc sdd hp com saimiri primate wisc edu caen batcomputer cornell uw beaver cs ubc ca newsserver sfu ca sfu ca rauser from rauser fraser sfu ca richard john rauser subject quick easy question message id rauser sfu ca sender news sfu ca organization simon fraser university burnaby canada date tue apr gmt lines here an easy question for someone who knows nothing about baseball what city do the california angels play out of richard rauser you have no idea what you re doing rauser sfu ca oh don worry about that we re professional wni outlaws we do this for living remember no matter where you go there you are dr banzai newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester rit isc newsserver ritvax isc rit edu djs9683 from djs9683 ritvax isc rit edu subject re finnally the phils have support message id apr6 ultb isc rit edu sender news ultb isc rit edu usenet news system nntp posting host vaxc isc rit edu reply to djs9683 ritvax isc rit edu organization rochester institute of technology date tue apr gmt the phillies were picked to be in first someone replied that the people who picked them were the same people who picked the mets last year my reply yeah that may be true but this is the phillies fritz path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu linac uchinews kimbark thf2 from thf2 kimbark uchicago edu ted frank newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re quick way to tell if your local beat writer is dumb message id apr6 midway uchicago edu date apr gmt article midway apr6 references apr pilot njin net c5188a k34 news2 cis umn edu apr pilot njin net sender news uchinews uchicago edu news system reply to thf2 midway uchicago edu distribution na organization university of chicago lines in article apr pilot njin net gajarsky pilot njin net bob gajarsky hobokenite writes ok sorry about that didn realise he was being sarcastic about those sort of things but ll tell you mike lupica daily news usually says some pretty funny things in his shooting from the lip columns bob gaj know if current trends continue the florida marlins will be the first expansion team to go and outscore their opponents by runs ted frank however teel should have mentioned that though thf2 kimbark uchicago edu his advice is legally sound if you follow it the of law school you will probably wind up in jail standard disclaimers james donald in misc legal newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester news crd ge com uunet europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu news cso uiuc edu psych uiuc edu pkeenan from pkeenan psych uiuc edu patricia keenan subject re quick easy question date tue apr gmt message id c51mbk bz news cso uiuc edu references rauser sfu ca sender usenet news cso uiuc edu net noise owner organization uiuc department of psychology lines rauser fraser sfu ca richard john rauser writes here an easy question for someone who knows nothing about baseball what city do the california angels play out of anaheim richard rauser you have no idea what you re doing rauser sfu ca oh don worry about that we re professional wni outlaws we do this for living remember no matter where you go there you are dr banzai newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester news crd ge com rpi usc wupost uunet pmafire wrl from wrl pmafire inel gov william lechner subject trivia question message id apr6 pmafire inel gov date tue apr gmt distribution usa organization winco lines ok all you trivia buffs have good one for you prior to the foul bunt rule what is the record for the most foul balls by batter during one at bat total pitches who was the batter who was the pitcher same as except after the foul bunt rule associated data would be nice too such as date location teams etc bill wrl pmafire inel gov newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester news crd ge com rpi uwm edu msuinfo uchinews kimbark thf2 from thf2 kimbark uchicago edu ted frank subject re best second baseman message id apr6 midway uchicago edu sender news uchinews uchicago edu news system reply to thf2 midway uchicago edu organization university of chicago references mar29 sarah albany edu mar29 midway uchicago edu pqvusinnmjm crcnis1 unl edu distribution usa date tue apr gmt lines in article pqvusinnmjm crcnis1 unl edu horan cse unl edu mark horan writes sandberg is not particulary known for his stolen bases what competition did alomar have sandberg came in year after ripken and the same year as boggs gwynn and the other magicians so less attention was given to sandberg alomar is the only one in his class to be worth mediocre besides the numbers don count national league pitchers are much better pitchers you re right thomas gonzalez sheffield and griffey don even begin to compare with ripken boggs and gwynn so no wonder alomar gets so much attention sandberg got no attention his rookie year because his rookie year was terrible so was his sophomore year national league pitchers are much better pitchers that certainly explains sheffield hm are you confusing have era that are lower because they don face dh with much better ted frank however teel should have mentioned that though thf2 kimbark uchicago edu his advice is legally sound if you follow it the of law school you will probably wind up in jail standard disclaimers james donald in misc legal path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen usenet cis ufl edu usenet ufl edu gatech news feed peachnet edu umn edu lynx unm edu carina unm edu kbos from kbos carina unm edu mitchell bose newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re espn and expansion date apr gmt organization university of new mexico albuquerque lines message id pr1b3inn8r9 lynx unm edu references news duke edu khansen staff tc umn edu c5109u c0 ucdavis edu nntp posting host carina unm edu in article c5109u c0 ucdavis edu itlm013 dale ucdavis edu donnie trump writes was watching peter gammons on espn last night and he got me little confused while talking about expansion he started mentioning people who might benefit from the fringe players they ll be facing mcgriff hitting home runs sheffield getting rbi and glavine winning games this was of course all in reference to what happened the other times that baseball has expanded early late late what really confused me though was the mention of al players who would do well next year specifically roger clemens winning games and the likes of mcgwire and gonzalez hitting home runs my question is how in the hell will the rockies marlins help the al the last time looked there wasn lot of talent jumping leagues did miss something only if you persist in believing that peter gammons is more knowledgable about baseball than the average mailbox okay overstating still the man actually had the gall to say that one out of every six pitchers in the nl this year did not pitch in the majors last year huh imo this expansion will not see the explosive jump in offense that the other expansion drafts had since the talent was diluted over both leagues in gammons defense because the talent drain came from the al as well some increase will be seen he also gets credit for mentioning that the jump in offense was due also to the rules changes after the season he still full of it kurt bose as in daisy not rose kbos carina unm edu if you take out all the ks this is an page book wally backman leafing though copy of mets teammate lenny dykstra autobiography nails path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester news crd ge com uunet wupost waikato ac nz canterbury ac nz news otago ac nz guilford newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re bo was good player you shorts plus idiots message id apr6 otago ac nz from guilford otago ac nz date tue apr gmt sender usenet news otago ac nz news stuff references apr4 otago ac nz apr4 princeton edu apr5 otago ac nz c50m9d dv murdoch acc virginia edu organization university of otago dunedin new zealand nntp posting host thorin otago ac nz lines in article c50m9d dv murdoch acc virginia edu drw3l delmarva evsc virginia edu david robert walker writes bo jackson kcr kcr kcr cws maj maj this is what jackson looked like in with everything converted to neutral park on the basis of run production his equivalent average started at in was up to in and in so let us say he had established in his last two seasons level of play not quite sure how these numbers are generated it appears that in neutral park bo hr and slugging tend to drop he actually loses two home runs or do they what is equivalent average one thing when looking at bo stats is that you can see that kc took away some homers normally you expect some would be homers to go for doubles or triples in big parks or to be caught and for that matter you expect lots of doubles and triples anyway but bo despite his speed hit very few doubles and not that many triples so would expect his value to have risen quite considerably in neutral park that is good very good in fact but it probably doesn make the top ten in the league the th best eqa in the al in was dave winfield thomas was first at first in the nl was bonds an incroyable tenth was bip roberts but is better than any season in the past five years by joe carter it is about what mattingly had in what felix jose had the last two years just ahead of time raines five year average better than ryan klesko mles felix jose has been player in fairly neutral park would offhand guess the bo at around player maybe not even close he got more attention from the media than was warranted from his baseball playing though his hype was lot better than his hitting that is the basis for the net comments about him being overrated the media would have you beleive he was great hitter think he was good maybe very good hitter he was imo something like the th best hitter in the majors put him about there too note hadn realized the media had hyped him so much thought he was always viewed by them as better football player and only so so at baseball he did only have one hr rbi season and kc wasn winning note maybe have harped on this bit in the past but there is mistake being made by the sdcn as they are known on this group with respect to players like bo and deion and lofton and perhaps others we find that if you look at large group of players their past major and minor league numbers will predict their future numbers fairly well their are some caveats the younger they are the less good the prediction the lower the minor league the less good imagine the more recent the player has left college ball etc now of course this prediction involves quite bit of error sometimes player with poor mle dave justice the ventura becomes star some hitters develop shane mack brian downing some don oddibe mcdowell mickey brantley this error involves real things there are real reasons why oddibe didn hit and shane did it may who knows involve parks and batting coaches and wheaties and injuries and lifting and so on but still you have this big pool of players and things work pretty well one of the reasons for these predictions accuracy is the common background of the players one thing we know about professional baseball players is that all of them or almost all have spent good deal of time playing ball their backgrounds are similar what hasn been established is what happens when you encounter player with different background is there some reason to believe that bo or deion or lofton or tony gwynn or an ainge or so on has such different background that the standard model and standard assumptions fit this person slowly it hasn been established that you can use mle with two sport players it hasn been established that you can but then statistics is after all an art personally think otherwise lucid individuals continually make completely nonsensical statements about bo and deion and lofton look at those good but not great minor league numbers they say well what happens if those numbers simply don mean what they usually mean it might mean that ken lofton suddenly has better year in houston than tuscon it might mean that deion suddenly has better half year in atlanta than greenville then again it might not ken and deion might go right back in the tank this year live up to those poor mle but you guys don know what worse you don know that you don and you don know that there are other players you won know about injuries and lifting and wheaties again you seem to think that the model is perfect and eternal it not it got some error oh well bill guilford still thinks hairy butt is truly ugly might be right path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester news crd ge com uunet gatech ukma netnews louisville edu wkuvx1 cabanrf from cabanrf wkuvx1 bitnet newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re my belated predictions nl message id apr5 wkuvx1 bitnet date apr cdt references news duke edu apr3 mnemosyne cs du edu apr pilot njin net mssc4zyo8 jsc netcom com organization western kentucky university bowling green ky lines in article mssc4zyo8 jsc netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes in article apr pilot njin net gajarsky pilot njin net bob gajarsky hobokenite writes ve said the braves would improve by injury as well here how javier lopez is better catcher than greg olson ryan klasko is better firstbaseman than bream chipper jones is better shortstop than anyone the braves put out there mel nieves is better than nixon sanders that how it forces them to play the young guys bob gaj continue to be amazed at these comments while lopez might some day be better catcher than olson find it totally amazing for you to suggest that this year old with three seasons of professional baseball is now better than olson five year mlb veteran who is noted for his ability to call game and who has better than average arm oh perhaps you are talking about hitting well sure lopez might hit better perhaps he probably will but has there ever in the history of baseball been year old or younger rookie catcher who compared favorably among all league catchers in terms of defense and brought bat wasn it yes ivan rodriguez last year batted and threw out of the baserunners not too shabby for rookie from aa years old last year sandy alomar who was supposed to be that good in his rookie year not wasn it benito santiago who was supposed to be that good in his rookie year not can continue this thread with the others mentioned but you get the point you and others seem to be so quick to dismiss the seasoned veterans in favor of the hot young rookies perhaps just perhaps the management team of the pennant winning braves knows something more than you do and perhaps what they know is that very very few and year old rookies come up to the majors and make an impact the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com roy cabaniss wait till tommy meets the lord and western kentucky university finds out that he wearing pinstripes all opinions contained herein gaylord perry talking about lasorda are all mine own and that the sin baseball what way to spend day path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu ux1 cso uiuc edu news cso uiuc edu uxa cso uiuc edu ada41546 from ada41546 uxa cso uiuc edu driftwood newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re jim lefebvre is an idiot message id c51uc6 bl1 news cso uiuc edu date apr gmt article news c51uc6 bl1 references apr5 bsu ucs sender usenet news cso uiuc edu net noise owner organization university of illinois at urbana lines totally agree with each point you made jose viscaino looked like single hitter up there who swings on count with maddux pitching and your teams down by run and you haven touched the ball all day also think too much is made of that lefty righty thing watching the cubs games get the feeling steve stone knows lot more about what the cubs should be doing than lefebre does harry said it best when he stated after another terrible vizcaino at bat we can wait til sandberg returns path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse network ucsd edu sdd hp com ux1 cso uiuc edu usenet ucs indiana edu silver ucs indiana edu bodom from bodom silver ucs indiana edu brian odom newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re new uniforms message id c51vwc lru usenet ucs indiana edu date apr gmt article usenet c51vwc lru references apr5 virginia edu sender news usenet ucs indiana edu usenet news system organization indiana university lines nntp posting host silver ucs indiana edu in apr5 virginia edu tek2q virginia edu todd karlin writes usually one or two teams changes their logo or minor uniform change per season but the past few seasons have been incredible any thoughts on the new old reds uniforms remember seeing pete rose rookie card and unless miss my guess he was wearing the exact same duds the mets how about doc performance today have reinserted the mets patch on the shoulder and changed the mets insgnia on the front of the jersey to my knowledge it is the first time that has been changed since and it reminds me little of the dodger logo as far as know toronto pittsburgh and new york nl change their uniforms every year every other year new york it will say mets in cursive new york in cursive or new york in all caps minor changes but they do change them often last year think they had new york in all caps did toronto have blue jays or toronto last year what about pittsburgh many teams have opted for return to previous style of uniform or at least uniforms that look more traditional phillies reds expos white sox padres etc and the once bright colors have been altered to gray the trend has also seen the newer baseball fields resembling the parks of the early years as opposed to the cookie cutter saucer stadiums construcrted throughout the sixties hate the gray they should opt for more color like the white sox hate white team versus gray team spring training uniforms look much better with salaries now reaching unbelievable highs no one in the comissioner office and inter league play on the horizon it nice to see that baseball at least looks like it was meant to be path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu linac att princeton phoenix princeton edu niepornt from niepornt phoenix princeton edu david marc nieporent newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re jim lefebvre is an idiot message id apr6 princeton edu date apr gmt article princeto apr6 references apr5 bsu ucs c51uc6 bl1 news cso uiuc edu sender news princeton edu usenet news system organization princeton university lines originator news nimaster nntp posting host phoenix princeton edu in c51uc6 bl1 news cso uiuc edu ada41546 uxa cso uiuc edu driftwood writes totally agree with each point you made jose viscaino looked like single hitter up there who swings on count with maddux pitching and your teams down by run and you haven touched the ball all day oh this is an easy trivia question the answer is any cub not named sandberg or grace also think too much is made of that lefty righty thing watching the cubs games get the feeling steve stone knows lot more about what the cubs should be doing than lefebre does harry said it best when he stated after another terrible vizcaino at bat we can wait til sandberg returns david nieporent only one thing wrong with theory niepornt phoenix is stupid is stupidest theory ever heard princeton edu baltimore orioles who the dangerous cult the bds or the batf newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com paladin american edu darwin sura net welchgate welch jhu edu jrs from jrs welchgate welch jhu edu robert sapp subject re billy gets cheers in baltimore message id apr5 welchgate welch jhu edu organization johns hopkins univ welch medical library references apr199313263142 jhuvms hcf jhu edu distribution na date mon apr gmt lines in article apr199313263142 jhuvms hcf jhu edu doctor8 jhuvms hcf jhu edu jason abner miller writes orioles vs texas at camden yards april opening day batting th for texas playing second base billy ripken the hometown crowd gave their favorite ex nd baseman minute standing ovation as billy wearing flashy shades took the cheers smiling and waving consummate role player in the words of caller jon miller tim hulett failed to receive similar cheers when announced mainly because he didn have the courtesy to show up wasn hulett injured yesterday after being hit in the face with ball while running bases heard something about him recieving stiches and possible broken nose is he at the park fernando was warmly received good to see that let see how they feel when he and with era have my doubts about fernando when cal was announced jon miller says it seems like yesterday when this young man began consecutive game streak time all star time mvp time gold glover our future hall of fame shortsop batting rd cal ripken the standing lasted about seconds less than billy blargh well when fan favorite gets dumped he gonna get an outstanding ovation on his first return let add up the ovations cal has recieved over the years during the game and compare that to billy btw sutcliffe getting knocked around pretty good rangers up in the bottom of the fourth rob newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net uunet decwrl netcomsv orchard la locus com prodnet la locus com spica la locus com aardvark from aardvark spica la locus com warren usui subject re quick way to tell if your local beat writer is dumb message id apr06 locus com sender news locus com netnews organization locus computing corporation los angeles california references apr pilot njin net date tue apr gmt lines in article apr pilot njin net gajarsky pilot njin net bob gajarsky hobokenite writes anyone who writes dean palmer has homers at this pace he ll have home runs should be shot the dodgers after one inning of play have committed one error at this rate they ll have errors this season well maybe right this time warren usui one with the universe on scale from to newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net wupost uwm edu linac att princeton phoenix princeton edu niepornt from niepornt phoenix princeton edu david marc nieporent subject re designated hitter rule message id apr6 princeton edu originator news nimaster sender news princeton edu usenet news system nntp posting host phoenix princeton edu organization princeton university references apr4 bsu ucs ekdfc ttacs1 ttu edu date tue apr gmt lines in ekdfc ttacs1 ttu edu ekdfc ttacs1 ttu edu david coons writes in apr4 bsu ucs ecgillespi leo bsuvc bsu edu writes am doing postition paper on the designated hitter rule any information or even opinions would be greatly apprecitated ecgillespie magic should be rescinded the rules say baseball is game between two teams of nine players each let keep it that way not any more the rules don say that so that pretty dumb argument david nieporent only one thing wrong with theory niepornt phoenix is stupid is stupidest theory ever heard princeton edu baltimore orioles who the dangerous cult the bds or the batf path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net agate ames sun barr male ebay sun com jethro corp sun com exodus eng sun com appserv eng sun com maredsous str from str maredsous eng sun com todd rader newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re rickey henderson date apr gmt organization sun lines distribution usa message id ls1d6vinns65 appserv eng sun com references apr5 ra msstate edu nntp posting host maredsous in article apr5 ra msstate edu js1 isis msstate edu jiann ming su writes say buy out henderson contract and let him go bag groceries next season you ll be able to sign him for nothing that goes for any bitching ball player stay in school you have lot to learn path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net saturn caps maine edu maine maine edu io20456 organization university of maine system date tue apr edt from ryan robbins io20456 maine maine edu message id io20456 maine maine edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re designated hitter rule references apr4 bsu ucs apr5 hpcvaac cv hp com lines actually there can be any number of players on side you can have man roster man roster etc ryan robbins penobscot hall university of maine io20456 maine maine edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net saturn caps maine edu maine maine edu io20456 organization university of maine system date tue apr edt from ryan robbins io20456 maine maine edu message id io20456 maine maine edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re why the redflops can but won win references c50qln dn ulowell ulowell edu lines don knock vaughn for being spring training hitter but regular season hitter around games played isn an indication of how good any hitter is and the quality of pitching is way down ryan robbins penobscot hall university of maine io20456 maine maine edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net wupost uunet icd ab com iccgcc decnet ab com carrd from carrd iccgcc decnet ab com newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re david wells message id apr5 iccgcc decnet ab com date apr est lines has david wells landed with team yet think the tigers with their anemic pitching would grab this guy pronto dc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu magnus acs ohio state edu cis ohio state edu bounce bounce from atchison cis ohio state edu mark edward atchison newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re cleveland tragedy date apr organization the ohio state university dept of computer and info science lines message id ppk8dinn7t2 cowardlylion cis ohio state edu references apr5 ns1 cc lehigh edu nntp posting host cowardlylion cis ohio state edu in article apr5 ns1 cc lehigh edu gaf5 ns1 cc lehigh edu gail fullman writes wonder if ojeda will sue anyone because his career may be over not due to the accident he just got really bad haircut now if you meant due to his floating fastball well mark atchison atchison cis ohio state edu graduate student in the computer science dept the ohio state university not an ohio state university any plagiarisms seen above are not my own path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse emory wupost howland reston ans net gatech pitt edu genetic from genetic pitt edu david tate newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re pinch hitters was re denny walling message id blue cis pitt edu date apr gmt article blue references apr2 midway uchicago edu pppcrinnch9 master cs rose hulman edu sender news pitt edu organization department of industrial engineering lines rickert nextwork rose hulman edu john rickert said and thought mota didn really start pinch hitting for living until after depends on what you mean by for living was the year he led the league in pinch hit at bats with but he been getting lot of ph abs earlier than that and was never full time player ph abs early in his career year just before going to the dodgers and in the peak years we re talking about guy with year career as an outfielder career batting average and or so career hits david tate do not know what it is about you that closes posing as and opens only something in me understands can the pocket of your glove is deeper than pete rose dy cummings nobody not even tim raines has such soft hands path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse emory wupost howland reston ans net gatech pitt edu genetic from genetic pitt edu david tate newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re marlins win marlins win message id blue cis pitt edu date apr gmt article blue references c51buv kln usenet ucs indiana edu sender news pitt edu organization department of industrial engineering lines dwarner journalism indiana edu said only caught the tail end of this one on espn does anyone have report look at all that teal bleah maybe it just me but the combination of those young faces peeking out from under oversized aqua helmets screams little league in every fibre of my being david tate do not know what it is about you that closes posing as and opens only something in me understands can the pocket of your glove is deeper than pete rose dy cummings nobody not even tim raines has such soft hands path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse emory wupost howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu magnus acs ohio state edu cwamsley from cwamsley magnus acs ohio state edu christopher wamsley newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re new uniforms message id apr6 magnus acs ohio state edu date apr gmt article magnus apr6 references apr5 virginia edu c51vwc lru usenet ucs indiana sender news magnus acs ohio state edu organization the ohio state university lines nntp posting host magnusug magnus acs ohio state edu in article c51vwc lru usenet ucs indiana edu bodom silver ucs indiana edu br ian odom writes as far as know toronto pittsburgh and new york nl change their uniforms every year every other year new york it will say mets in cursive new york in cursive or new york in all caps minor changes but they do change them often last year think they had new york in all caps did toronto have blue jays or toronto last year what about pittsburgh it depends on which uniforms you are talking about for the last couple of years believe toronto and pittsburgh has used the same uniforms or at least very similar the home jerseys had the team nick name blue jays or pirates but the road jerseys had the name of the city toronto or pittsburgh believe this is the way most teams design their uniforms chris newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net uunet psinntp dg rtp avlin10 avlin8 us dg com hagins from hagins avlin8 us dg com jody hagins subject lose openr at home to rangers sender usenet avlin10 us dg com usenet message id apr5 avlin10 us dg com date mon apr gmt reply to hagins avlin8 us dg com organization data general corporation linthicum md lines sutcliffe gives up hrs gonzales palmer and mills gives up hr gonzales to lose sutcliffe texas lefferts baltimore sutcliffe jody hagins hagins avlin8 us dg com data general corporation linthicum md xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec sport baseball alt binaries pictures newsgroups rec sport baseball alt binaries pictures path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net uunet newsflash concordia ca nstn ns ca cs dal ca ug cs dal ca reiniger from reiniger ug cs dal ca darren reiniger subject mlb logos part message id c52eiv yz cs dal ca summary national league east posted sender usenet cs dal ca usenet news nntp posting host ug cs dal ca organization math stats cs dalhousie university halifax ns canada date tue apr gmt lines have posted the logos of the nl east teams to alt binaries pictures misc hopefully ll finish the series up next week with the nl west darren darren reiniger reiniger ug cs dal ca arishem ac dal ca centre for marine geology dalhousie university halifax canada people who wonder where this generation is going should remind themselves where it came from in the first place newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com emory wupost howland reston ans net newsserver jvnc net darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet infonode tribe b17d ingr com kenney from kenney tribe b17d ingr com david kenney subject my predictions message id apr6 infonode ingr com sender usenet infonode ingr com usenet administrator reply to kenney tribe b17d ingr com organization intergraph corporation huntsville alabama date tue apr gmt lines thought post my predicted standings since find those posted by others to be interesting sorry this is after opening day certify that these were completed before the first pitch al east new york yankees the most only improved team in this division toronto blue jays stewart and morris no way milwaukee brewers they always seem to do better than expect baltimore orioles pitching but devareaux anderson and hoiles will drop cleveland indians still don seem to know what they are doing detroit tigers all key players but fryman are another year past peak boston red sox any team with clemens and viola might be beter than th al west this division was the toughest for me to pick whoever of the top gets pitching should win it minnesota twins young pitchers seem to have best chance for success texas rangers don know why have them here jose canseco chicago white sox frank thomas but no pitching oakland larussa is the best manager and would keep any team close seattle mariners like pinella but don see much here kansas city royals will score no runs california angels will win no games nl east montreal expos good all around plus no wallach st louis cardinals jeffries whiten jose clark no galarraga pittsburgh pirates youngsters will take up more slack than expected new york mets some good players still not team philadelphia phillies they don impress me florida marlins they know what they re doing chicago cubs they don know what they re doing nl west the best teams in baseball are in this division atlanta braves awesome starters but offense could be concern cincinnati reds would not surprise me if they won it all houston astros any team that signs uribe won contend closer to than san diego padres plantier could be the sheffield of los angeles dodgers better pitching than the giants san francisco giants because the rockies just stink colorado rockies will become the seattle mariners of the nl nlcs montreal atlanta braves fans yes probably contradicting what said in my nl west comment alcs new york minnesota world series new york montreal hating the yankees will be fashionable again nl mvp barry bonds or maybe mcgriff nl cy young jose rijo al mvp frank thomas will deserve it again but fielder might win it al cy young roger clemens at least will deserve it again david kenney kenney tribe b17d ingr com newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc sdd hp com decwrl netcomsv netcom com derich from derich netcom com scotty tissue subject day day day disabled list questions message id derichc52gje fja netcom com organization netcom on line communication services guest date tue apr gmt lines ve curiousity whenever person is put on the day day or day the person is on the list longer than the specificed time ve seen person on the day for maybe months last year don remember what just need little clarification on the disabled list specifications scotyy scott allen steinbrink go cleveland cavaliers nba finals netcom derich netcom com go cleveland indians world series digex derich digex com go cleveland browns super bowl path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse decwrl concert gatech pitt edu genetic from genetic pitt edu david tate newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re young catchers message id blue cis pitt edu date apr gmt article blue references mssc50dfw netcom com apr5 cs cornell edu mssc50qa5 dtv netcom com sender news pitt edu organization department of industrial engineering lines mss netcom com mark singer said we know that very very few players at this age make much of an impact in the bigs especially when they haven even played aaa ball yes but this is irrelevant you re talking about averages when we have lots of information about this player in particular to base our decisions on might as well say we know that very very few people are more than feet tall so chances are that manute bol is really only foot no maybe need to improve my writing skills lopez who is very ordinary defensively is not likely to hit so well at age having not played at aaa level that it is probably not good idea to rush him into the braves lineup in why isn lopez likely to hit that well he hit that well last year after adjusting his stats for park and league and such he hit better on an absolute scale than olson or berryhill did by lot as for rushing if there really is qualitative difference between the minors and the majors that requires period of adjustment and don believe there is then wouldn you rather waste lopez year old good season than his year old very good season or his year old excellent season the sooner you get him acclimated the more of his prime you get to use lopez was hitting over ab when he was cut from spring training what does he have to do to earn chance maybe not full time job but at least couple starts and few ab for him to prove his worth gee don know abs sounds pretty good to me about as good as your reasoning that the kid should play back up role rather than start every day at aaa talk about me as gm the point was not that ab is significant sample but rather that he hadn done anything in spring training to cause even blockhead manager to question whether his minor league numbers were for real or to send him down until he gets warmed up ok most players are not ready for the bigs at age most players are never ready for the bigs what does this have to do with javy lopez most players benefit rather than being stagnant or hurt by playing at aaa see above most catchers need to be solid defensively players to help their clubs in the bigs those are the arguments against lopez for the braves for this year but could apply the same reasoning to frank thomas or barry bonds most players aren that good so they probably won be that good this year either now the braves have two catchers who have demonstrated solid abilities to call games to work with the pitchers to throw out runners and demonstrated inabilities to hit their way out of soap bubble not superstars mind you but solid experienced veterans not superstars not stars not even good players maybe average if we re being charitable the braves have very solid lineup with two big bats in the outfield an excellent platoon at first solid mvp candidate at third and one of the better hitting shortstops ummm justice is very fine hitter pendleton might have another big year in his bat but he might also spend the season in hamstring hell gant is big question mark the bream hunter platoon is decent not excellent and has rotten obp or slg depending on who in blauser is very valuable bat for shortstop the center field platoon will probably hit however good lopez bat might be given the above it won be so much better than what they have to offset the differential in experience and defensive ability wanna bet the difference between lopez bat and olson berryhill could be or runs over the course of the season given choice between player with experience and player who can play ll take the latter every time the kid will improve playing at aaa just like keith mitchell did am just so surprised have to spell all of this out my goodness do you believe the other poster who thinks lopez is being held down because of his future earning potential that was me and you so far your only counter proposal is that they really don understand how good lopez is or overvalue experience or some combination of the two think my interpretation was more flattering to the organization are they idiots who have built this ballclub well argued but inflammatory reply deleted david tate do not know what it is about you that closes posing as and opens only something in me understands can the pocket of your glove is deeper than pete rose dy cummings nobody not even tim raines has such soft hands path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse decwrl concert gatech pitt edu genetic from genetic pitt edu david tate newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re young catchers message id blue cis pitt edu date apr gmt article blue references mssc50p03 cpg netcom com blue cis pitt edu mssc51042 l9j netcom com sender news pitt edu organization department of industrial engineering lines mss netcom com mark singer said in article blue cis pitt edu genetic pitt edu david tate writes well perhaps if the braves had no one else worth playing this year it would be lopez in there but they do have others worth playing at least in their opinion catcher is their weakest position with the possible exception of second base they have chance to simultaneously replace their biggest offensive problem spot with well above average offensive player and acclimate highly promising potential star with no pressure on him to carry the team and they want to play olson and berryhill instead disagree in that don think it is tangible skill any more than leadership is don deny that it is real skill and that some catchers may be much better than others at it but really don see any way that we could ever know who they are nichols law of catcher defense is eerily accurate far too often for me to take defensive assessments of catchers very seriously sorry new don know nichols law catcher defensive reputation will be inversely proportional to his recent offensive level of performance thus mickey tettleton goes in the media from being no hit defensive whiz to slugging thumb finger in two short years the rule doesn apply to perceived superstars who get the gold glove offensive transfer effect instead greg olson is probably considered to be good defensive catcher precisely because he can hit don believe in catchers era but am interested in pitchers eras with different catchers aren they the same thing in other words we know more than they do so the only logic behind different decision than we would make must be financial either that or just stupidity presume we feel this way about other franchises than atlanta no of course is it fair to the young players no does it make organizational sense think it does well if it does make organizational sense one can hardly fault them for their decisions mean please don tell me how to run my business especially when being successful one could make the same sort of argument in other cases pete rose in pursuing ty cobb record was huge gate attraction and national media magnet the reds made lot of money off that they also wasted the prime of eric davis that may be good business but that doesn mean don loathe them for it david tate do not know what it is about you that closes posing as and opens only something in me understands can the pocket of your glove is deeper than pete rose dy cummings nobody not even tim raines has such soft hands path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse emory europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net agate jtchern from jtchern ocf berkeley edu joseph hernandez newsgroups rec sport baseball subject mlb standings and scores for tue apr th keywords mlb message id ps77v dr agate berkeley edu date apr gmt article agate ps77v dr distribution world organization jtc enterprises sports division major league baseball dept lines nntp posting host monsoon berkeley edu mlb standings and scores for tuesday april th including yesterday games national west won lost pct gb last streak home road atlanta braves won cincinnati reds won san diego padres san francisco giants colorado rockies lost houston astros lost los angeles dodgers lost national east florida marlins won new york mets won philadelphia phillies won pittsburgh pirates st louis cardinals chicago cubs lost montreal expos lost american west won lost pct gb last streak home road oakland athletics won texas rangers won california angels chicago white sox minnesota twins seattle mariners kansas city royals lost american east boston red sox won new york yankees won milwaukee brewers toronto blue jays baltimore orioles lost cleveland indians lost detroit tigers lost yesterday scores national league american league montreal new york cincinnati cleveland atlanta texas chicago baltimore los angeles boston florida kansas city philadelphia detroit houston oakland colorado california idle new york chicago idle pittsburgh idle milwaukee idle st louis idle minnesota idle san diego idle seattle idle san franciscoidle toronto idle joseph hernandez rams lakers jtchern ocf berkeley edu kings dodgers raiders jtcent soda berkeley edu angels clippers newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu csc ti com tilde csc ti com mksol trainer dansmith from dansmith mcopn2 dseg ti com danny smith subject braves win opener message id apr6 mksol dseg ti com sender usenet mksol dseg ti com usenet news nntp posting host s355 dseg ti com reply to dansmith mcopn2 dseg ti com organization texas instruments inc date tue apr gmt lines well maddux looked excellent as the braves shutout the cubs justice drove in the only run with an rbi single in the first get ready for him to have monster year he is now hitting the ball to the opposite field with lot of power to go with his natural power to right field and his good batting eye if he stays healthy which he should his back is full strength this year he should get over rbi and close to hr in another note the marlins got off to good start beating the dodgers believe the score was but not sure wish them and the rockies well this year hell think it would be funny to watch the dodgers hit the cellar again this year dan smith path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net noc near net transfer stratus com usenet from jmann vineland pubs stratus com jim mann newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re rickey henderson message id psbdn lru transfer stratus com date apr gmt article transfer psbdn lru references apr6 ra msstate edu reply to jmann vineland pubs stratus com distribution usa organization stratus computer inc marlboro ma lines nntp posting host gondolin pubs stratus com in article apr6 ra msstate edu js1 isis msstate edu jiann ming su writes in article ls1d6vinns65 appserv eng sun com str maredsous eng sun com todd rader writes stay in school you have lot to learn learn what know that million dollars is lot of money know rickey henderson doesn have career out of baseball know if he didn have baseball he wouldn be making near the money he is now and michael jackson jack nicholson and bill cosby wouldn be making near as much money if they weren entertainers so what your point just don understand how some athlete who only plays sport for living for millions of dollars say he is not being paid enough if nobody will sign him for his asking price he will be the one hurting the will still win without him will they you can usually take away one of the team best players and still expect them to win or do you think the pirates will continue to win without barry bonds remeber many of these athletes have nothing if not for their athletic ability nothing they are getting paid much more than most hard working citizens and they are complaining of not enough pay so again jack nicholson gets paid much more than most hard working citizens and much more than rickey henderson for that matter don have problem with them making millions my problem is when the say they aren being paid enough when they already get million also their numbers get worse the reason the latter often happens is that many of these folks start making the real big salaries late in their career when they are on the decline there are exceptions of course dave parker fell apart after making his first million because he put most of that million up his nose jim mann stratus computer jmann vineland pubs stratus com newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu utnut torn csd unb ca mta ca jhunter from jhunter mta ca john hunter subject white sox mailing list message id apr6 jupiter sun csd unb ca sender news jupiter sun csd unb ca reply to jhunter mta ca organization mount allison sackville canada date tue apr gmt lines hi gang like to subscribe to the white sox mailing list if one exists can someone please mail me the address thanks alot john jhunter mta ca path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech news feed peachnet edu darwin sura net guvax acc georgetown edu jpopovich from jpopovich guvax acc georgetown edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re new uniforms message id apr6 guvax acc georgetown edu date apr distribution world organization georgetown university lines while enjoy the trend towards the more classic style of uniform and disagree with the person who wants return to the non gray road uniforms it should be remembered that one of the if not the reason for the redesigning of uniforms especially hats re the new road all green caps and the cardinal navy blue road cap is the marketing money to be made in sales of new merchandise jeffrey popovich jpopovich guvax georgetown edu xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec sport baseball rec sport basketball pro path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu spdcc think com mbcrr fath from fath mbcrr dfci harvard edu michael fath newsgroups rec sport baseball rec sport basketball pro subject help looking for cleveland sports mailing list info date apr gmt organization dana farber cancer institute lines distribution world message id pscmoinnmjj early bird think com nntp posting host mbcrr harvard edu looking for the address to join the cleveland sports mailing list if anyone knows it would be greatful if they could email copy of it to me if you are member just mail me one of the list letters could probably figure it out from there thanks mm mm fffff michael fath dept of microbiology and molecular genetics fff harvard medical school boston ma fath mbcrr harvard edu newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu moe ksu ksu edu hobbes physics uiowa edu news iastate edu pv0a0a vincent iastate edu dpeterik from dpeterik iastate edu dan peterik subject re brewer notes message id dpeterik pv0a0a vincent iastate edu sender news news iastate edu usenet news system organization iowa state university ames ia references mar93 music lib matc edu date tue apr gmt lines in mar93 music lib matc edu pfan pfan music lib matc edu writes for those of you who know who bernie brewer is he back the team mascot if you will was given his walking papers few years ago but the fans voted him back last season and he will be perched in the his familiar home in the outfield and will again slide down into barrel of beer when home runs are hit that is great to hear just may have to take raod trip to milwakee this year and see that again last time saw bernie brewer was at the age of and am now thanks for this post one final note bill spiers is leading the brewers with rbi in exhibition play looks like he bouncing back nicely from back problems good to bill is getting better form the limited coverage we get here in iowa know that this will be great season for the brew crew pete fanning computer operator leadership is action office of information technology not position milwaukee area technical college mcgannon email pfan music lib matc edu internet or pete fanning f71 n154 z1 fidonet org path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net uunet olivea sgigate odin luigi from luigi sgi com randy palermo newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re grateful dead message id c52jga b4 odin corp sgi com date apr gmt references io21087 maine maine edu sender news odin corp sgi com net news organization silicon graphics inc mountain view ca lines nntp posting host bullpen csd sgi com in article io21087 maine maine edu io21087 maine maine edu writes being baseball fan and fan of the above mentioned band was wondering if anyone could clue me in on whether the dead or members of sang the national anthem at todays giant opener would imagine that it is bit too early for anyone to know but an answer would be greatly appreciated it is my understanding that the dead will sing the na at the giants home opener on mon the giants are opening today in st louis luigi randy palermo luigi csd sgi com fax silicon graphics computer systems shoreline blvd mt view ca play an accordion go to jail that the law path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu cs utexas edu uunet news claremont edu kbanaian pitzer claremont edu kbanaian from kbanaian bernard pitzer claremont edu king banaian newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re day day day disabled list questions message id kbanaian bernard pitzer claremont edu date apr gmt article bernard kbanaian references derichc52gje fja netcom com sender news news claremont edu the news system organization pitzer college lines in article derichc52gje fja netcom com derich netcom com scotty tissue writes whenever person is put on the day day or day the person is on the list longer than the specificed time ve seen person on the day for maybe months last year don remember what just need little clarification on the disabled list specifications believe we are down to two the day and the day don remember day but rather day anyways it gone now the period length is minimum not maximum you can keep guy on the day for as long as you want if he still certified as injured the player must be periodically re evaluated to determine if he still injured thus you cannot park player on the dl who maybe is out of options and you do not wish to expose to waivers if you get someone qualified for the day that reduces the frequency of re evaluations there is no longer believe any limit to the number of players you can place on the dl when there was you often had to choose and juggle your injured players between the lists king sparky banaian no taxes no new taxes kbanaian pitzer claremont edu no old taxes we are taxed dept of economics pitzer college enough rep alan keyes latest gdp forecast please run alan path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse emory nntp msstate edu news from jonesk ur msstate edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re mo sanford message id apr6 ra msstate edu date apr gmt article ra apr6 references apr3 ra msstate edu sender news ra msstate edu reply to jonesk ur msstate edu organization mississippi state university lines nntp posting host ur117 ur msstate edu in article apr3 ra msstate edu js1 jazz cc msstate edu jiann ming su writes does any know if mo sanford rockies pitcher got cut he use to be with the reds but was drafted in the expansion draft believe he was sent down to aaa path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse emory europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net newsserver jvnc net netnews upenn edu kkeller from kkeller mail sas upenn edu keith keller newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re my predictions for message id netnews upenn edu date apr gmt article netnews references apr5 oswego oswego edu sender news netnews upenn edu organization university of pennsylvania school of arts and sciences lines nntp posting host mail sas upenn edu in article apr5 oswego oswego edu iacs3650 oswego oswego edu kevin mundstock writes since everyone else seems to be running wild with predictions ve decided to add my own fuel to the fire they might seem bit normal but there are few albeit small surprises al manager of the year buck showalter what makes you think buck will still be in new york at year end with george back keith keller let go rangers let go quakers kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs next time you go over my head ll have yours on platter cmdr benjamin sisko path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse decwrl usenet coe montana edu news washington edu hardy washington edu neuharth from neuharth hardy washington edu john neuharth newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re new uniforms message id pserkinnltg shelley washington edu date apr gmt article shelley pserkinnltg references apr6 guvax acc georgetown edu organization university of washington lines nntp posting host hardy washington edu jpopovich guvax acc georgetown edu writes while enjoy the trend towards the more classic style of uniform and disagree with the person who wants return to the non gray road uniforms it should be remembered that one of the if not the reason for the redesigning of uniforms especially hats re the new road all green caps and the cardinal navy blue road cap is the marketing money to be made in sales of new merchandise no kidding just ask the white sox too bad really john neuharth neuharth washington edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse decwrl usenet coe montana edu news washington edu hardy washington edu neuharth from neuharth hardy washington edu john neuharth newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re jim lefebvre is an idiot message id psf0dinnm4q shelley washington edu date apr gmt article shelley psf0dinnm4q references apr5 bsu ucs c52mkq bo8 odin corp sgi com organization university of washington lines nntp posting host hardy washington edu rickc krill corp sgi com richard casares writes in article apr5 bsu ucs bjgood leo bsuvc bsu edu writes just wanted to let everyone know that have lost what little respect have for jim lefebvre after seeing today cubs game dishard cub fan yes also wonder if they can win with this manager never believed managers had that much to do with winning until saw how much they had to do with losing like the mariners lot but my heart belongs to the cubs you can imagine my frustration when saw the cubs nabbing lefebvre arhgghrghh john neuharth neuharth washington edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse decwrl csus edu netcom com erics from erics netcom com eric smith newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re marlins win marlins win message id ericsc52qcc fu netcom com date apr gmt article netcom ericsc52qcc fu references c51buv kln usenet ucs indiana edu blue cis pitt edu organization netcom on line communication services guest lines genetic pitt edu david tate writes dwarner journalism indiana edu said only caught the tail end of this one on espn does anyone have report look at all that teal bleah maybe it just me but the combination of those young faces peeking out from under oversized aqua helmets screams little league in every fibre of my being hmm it seems the little leaguers didn do too badly against hershiser strawberry davis and the rest of the dodgers yesterday eric smith erics netcom com erics infoserv com ci path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse decwrl decwrl netcomsv netcom com erics from erics netcom com eric smith newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re harry and candy message id ericsc52qld l2 netcom com date apr gmt article netcom ericsc52qld l2 references rvesterm vma cc nd edu apr1 violet ccit arizona edu distribution world local organization netcom on line communication services guest lines f67709907 violet ccit arizona edu greg franklin writes rvesterm vma cc nd edu writes watching cubs rockies spring training game and thought you all like to know the particular way that harry caray butchers maldonado it seems to be mal dal nado but like the way he butchers andres galarraga name it comes out like gahlah rrrraggggah and don forget his frequent references to the great sf giant star bobby bonds what about thaaammy thotha for one was really sorry to hear that the cubs had sent heathcliff slocumb to the minors eric smith erics netcom com erics infoserv com ci path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse decwrl decwrl netcomsv netcom com mss from mss netcom com mark singer newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re young catchers message id mssc52qmx netcom com date apr gmt article netcom mssc52qmx references apr5 cs cornell edu mssc50qa5 dtv netcom com blue cis pitt edu organization netcom online communications services login guest lines in article blue cis pitt edu genetic pitt edu david tate writes mss netcom com mark singer said we know that very very few players at this age make much of an impact in the bigs especially when they haven even played aaa ball yes but this is irrelevant you re talking about averages when we have lots of information about this player in particular to base our decisions on do you really have that much information on him really why isn lopez likely to hit that well he hit that well last year after adjusting his stats for park and league and such he hit better on an absolute scale than olson or berryhill did by lot don know you tell me what percentage of players reach or exceed their mle in their rookie season we re talking about you know as for rushing if there really is qualitative difference between the minors and the majors that requires period of adjustment and don believe there is then wouldn you rather waste lopez year old good season than his year old very good season or his year old excellent season the sooner you get him acclimated the more of his prime you get to use if that were your purpose maybe offerman spent getting acclimated if you will the dodgers as team paid big price that season perhaps they will reap the benefits down the road do you really think they would have done what they did if they were competing for pennant lopez was hitting over ab when he was cut from spring training what does he have to do to earn chance maybe not full time job but at least couple starts and few ab for him to prove his worth the point was not that ab is significant sample but rather that he hadn done anything in spring training to cause even blockhead manager to question whether his minor league numbers were for real or to send him down until he gets warmed up for stat head amazed that you put any credence in spring training did you notice who he got those hits off of or are you going to tell me that it doesn make difference the kid will improve playing at aaa just like keith mitchell did wait minute missed something here first forget keith mitchell are you saying that kid who moves from aa to aaa and then does not improve would have been better off making direct leap to the majors if player does well at aa and then does not improve at aaa isn that sign that maybe he doesn belong in the bigs now keith mitchell as recall no stat books handy surprise he jumped from aa to atlanta in he did so well that he was returned to the minors where he didn do very well at all now his career is in jeopardy so how does he fit in with your point good mle in aa moved him right to the big club now he one step away from being traded or moved out of baseball duh that was me and you so far your only counter proposal is that they really don understand how good lopez is or overvalue experience or some combination of the two think my interpretation was more flattering to the organization well ve cast my lot certainly you may understand better how good lopez is and may overvalue experience but neither one of us runs baseball team the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse decwrl concert gatech howland reston ans net usc zappala from zappala pollux usc edu daniel zappala newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re marlins first rbi message id psiepinnlj0 pollux usc edu date apr gmt article pollux psiepinnlj0 references psgriinni1 rpco10 acslab umbc edu sender nntp pollux usc edu distribution world organization university of southern california los angeles ca lines nntp posting host pollux usc edu in article psgriinni1 rpco10 acslab umbc edu cs106116 umbc edu cs106116 writes hey was watching the orioles game on tv yesterday monday when report came in to the booth that the first runs came in on three run single did this really happen if it did how they said that the leadoff man knocked them in what exactly happened thanks walt weiss tripled just barely inside the right field line and into the corner driving in santiago and conine these were the first two rbis the third came later when weiss was knocked in daniel path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse decwrl concert duke news duke edu bchm biochem duke edu from fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re my picks with only one comment message id news duke edu date apr gmt article news references jfr2 ra msstate edu psbg8inngjj master cs rose hulman edu sender news news duke edu organization biochemistry lines nntp posting host bruchner biochem duke edu in article psbg8inngjj master cs rose hulman edu rickert nextwork rose hulman edu john rickert writes in article jfr2 ra msstate edu jfr2 ra msstate edu jackie russell writes psg pitt edu paul galvanek writes national league west cincinnati houston atlanta argh here is where you are obviously dead wrong not since the yankees of the and has team been so nicely setup as this years and years to come braves don think that the all star team will be able to beat this may be an appropriate comparison the yankees finshed nd rd and nd finshing and games out of first in and they also finished second though they were only and games out even great teams can lose that why they play the season on the other hand still picking the braves to go all the way um surely you didn intend to compare the reds with the philidelphia the yankees were finishing nd to team that was as good as the yankees while the yankees had aged some from their peak years ruth and gehrig couldn play every position simultaneously imo given the various ages of the braves and reds this season that the braves will be closer to their peak while the reds have slightly passed their peak also if you re going to compare braves and yankees more appropriate comparison to the braves might be the yankees after falling short two years in row in exciting world series both teams won will win the series this year despite the heroics of some old fart on the other team casey stengel dave winfield eric roush fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu am marxist of the groucho sort grafitti paris tanstaafl although the internet comes close path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse decwrl concert duke news duke edu bchm biochem duke edu from fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re quick way to tell if your local beat writer is dumb message id news duke edu date apr gmt article news references apr pilot njin net apr06 locus com sender news news duke edu organization biochemistry lines nntp posting host bruchner biochem duke edu in article apr06 locus com aardvark spica la locus com warren usui writes in article apr pilot njin net gajarsky pilot njin net bob gajarsky hobokenite writes anyone who writes dean palmer has homers at this pace he ll have home runs should be shot now on the other hand juan gonzales probably does have shot at hr the dodgers after one inning of play have committed one error at this rate they ll have errors this season well maybe right this time actually you might be underpredicting eric roush fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu am marxist of the groucho sort grafitti paris tanstaafl although the internet comes close path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse decwrl csus edu netcom com rudy from rudy netcom com rudy wade newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re yankkes game closer message id rudyc52rbd netcom com date apr gmt article netcom rudyc52rbd references axe acadiau ca organization home of the brave lines my god hope we don have to put up with this kind of junk all season in article axe acadiau ca axe acadiau ca jason walter works writes the yankees are now one game closer to the east pennant they clobbered cleveland on fine pitching performance by key and two homeruns by tartabull first baseball to go out this season and three how many home runs by tartabull just right you must be thinking of dean palmer or juan gonzalez both of texas who each had homers run homer by nokes for all of you who didn pick boggs in your pools tough break he had couple hits and drove in couple runs with many more don know how many to follow but he was for go yanks mattingly for glove and mvp and abbot for cy young spare us please path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse emory europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net agate newswatcher user from lloyd uclink berkeley edu lloyd nebres newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re marlins win marlins win message id lloyd date apr gmt article lloyd references c51buv kln usenet ucs indiana edu followup to rec sport baseball distribution world organization uc berkeley lines nntp posting host tol3mac15 soe berkeley edu look at all that teal bleah indeed if the color teal on team uniforms is any indication of the future the marlins are in dire trouble refer to the san jose sharks for proof but have hope for the marlins was sometime member of the rene lachemann fan club at the oakland coliseum and have deep respect for the guy he gem and of course walt weiss gives that franchise class but yeah whoever designed those uniforms was guilty of paucity of style and imagination ugghhh lloyd nebres uc berkeley internet lloyd uclink berkeley edu vox or never underestimate the bandwidth of carrying ton of cd roms path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu caen batcomputer cornell tedward from tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re young catchers message id apr6 cs cornell edu date apr gmt article cs apr6 references blue cis pitt edu apr6 cs tulane edu mssc52ril e0 netcom com organization cornell univ cs dept ithaca ny lines in article mssc52ril e0 netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes your speculation and others that lopez will produce better than the two proven veterans is nothing more than speculation no matter how well founded your speculation that the two proven veterans will produce better than lopez is also no more than speculation it does make difference whether the speculation is well founded or not obviously the braves believe they can win with the catching they have and agree if they change their minds they ll call up lopez though this is good point the one speculation is safer because it can be reversed cheers valentine path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse decwrl csus edu news ucdavis edu dale ucdavis edu ez027993 from ez027993 dale ucdavis edu gary the burgermeister huckabay newsgroups rec sport baseball subject call for votes dtbl mvp and cy please vote message id c52s31 ucdavis edu date apr gmt article ucdavis c52s31 sender usenet ucdavis edu distribution na organization harold brooks hot sour soup club ltd lines the regular season of the davis tabletop baseball league has just come to an end to help us with next year league would appreciate it if you would take couple of minutes and vote for our league mvp and cy winners these awards and players standings in them will inflate their salaries for next year league please vote for in each category in order for example barry bonds frank thomas biff pocoroba shooty babitt lips lundy please do not vote for pitchers in mvp voting for this league each team in the league gets one candidate for mvp and one for cy defensive position is listed where applicable along with an abbreviation of their performance there excellent very good average poor very poor thanks please reply by april for the record the season was games long thanks for your help mvp candidates name ab hr rbi bb sb cs ibb ba obp slg def griffey emartinez sandberg ventura mcgriff mcgwire ralomar dykstra butler deer bonds hrbek jgonzalez some players missed time due to injuries others were sat down at the end to avoid the possibility of injury there are better players than those on this list but each team gets one and only one candidate some players played more than games due to being traded to teams with more games left in the same time span now on to the pitchers name era ip bb hr gs cg sho wp dmartinez dibble rijo mussina benes khill smoltz cone drabek tewksbury clemens tomlin farr there you have it curt schilling threw perfect game during the year and ken hill threw no hitter rob dibble had pitched scoreless innings to start the year only to choke in the last two games to cost the perot giant sucking sounds playoff spot if you want stats of more players they are available by request please take the time to reply if you can thanks gary huckabay kevin kerr the al feldstein of the mid living argument for if there anything we love more than huge existence of parallel sig it someone quoting lines to add universes or new ones and consecutive posts too ooo ooo david zavatson mein schatz es ist soweit unsere liebe ist vorbei path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse decwrl concert duke news duke edu bchm biochem duke edu from fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re young catchers message id news duke edu date apr gmt article news sender news news duke edu organization biochemistry lines nntp posting host bruchner biochem duke edu since was the one responsible for these divergent threads of approx posts going back to the braves could be better off if an injury happens may as well inject little more fuel to the flame back at the beginning of spring training though lopez would make the squad easily olson was still recovering from his late season injury knee believe and there were questions as to whether he would be able to play before june and then berryhill was dinged up was looking forward to this because believe that lopez can hit and field the position before last season he was the braves defensive catcher prospect while brian deak was the braves offensive catcher prospect besides olson and berryhill couldn hit their way out of wet cardboard box and don walk enough to be useful but olson recovered quickly berryhill recovered and the braves went with the two vets still say that if one of those two had been down at the start of the season he wouldn have gotten his job back there is certain logic to keeping olson and berryhill around after all ml catchers are in short supply and suffer from wear and tear there are teams out there without one average ml catcher california and seattle come to mind certainly trying to move olson or berryhill through waivers would be unlikely to work plus you have to eat that salary which isn huge but isn tiddleywinks either think olson at about berryhill at but that only what recall yes think arbitration eligibility may have role to play in this also what is it that of the year players aren eligible for arbitration only the that were on the roster the longest are eligible of course the system may change but the extent of that change is not yet known from business standpoint it may make sense to keep lopez down until june the first time olson berryhill go on the dl am still disappointed that lopez isn on the team still prefer to think of myself as fan when it comes to the braves and the truth is that rather see our best team on the field which imo includes lopez of course today we play the cubs hopefully we won need him as for the schuerholz cox conversation imagine it went like this remember they ve both been gm the following is not meant to be read by the humor impaired cox ok we ve sent jones down his fielding could be little smoother besides blauser can hit ok and his fielding is better than it used to be schuerholz well we ll have to send nieves down too deion just won sign that baseball only contract we can count on him in october so we have to keep nixon around for the defense besides gorman not ready to give up on billy hatcher yet once hatcher gone and deion signs we can move nixon for frankie rodriguez that ought to give us some pitching depth in cox yep that ll be nice too bad deion won sign ok ll look for nieves when justice starts having berry berry er back problems again now what about klesko schuerholz well we ve still got to fork out another mil for bream if we keep klesko we either lose the money or cabrera keep dangling sid in front of dal maxwell but somehow he doesn seem to be the same gm first jeffries for jose and now whiten for clark if he gets rid of brian jordan then have to believe that he and whitey herzog switched bodies at the winter meetings cox ok keep trying on bream and ll wait til the trading deadline for my hunter klesko platoon maybe can get few extra at bats for cabrera while we wait try california if snow starts slowly maybe whiteydal will bite on sid and if that doesn work then perhaps sid knees could be persuaded to act up there always the day dl mwa ha ha ha ha schuerholz what about caraballo cox well he not that much better than lemke maybe if he starts in richmond he ll start walking more besides if he going to be arbitration eligible better to stretch him out so that we actually get some value from him before he makes the big bucks schuerholz now let see that leaves lopez cox nooooo gotta keep lopez sure didn think olson would recover this quickly maybe can talk caminiti into running into him again schuerholz nope lopez has gotta go you know that he ll get million in arbitration may as well put it off that one extra year besides until olson shown his stuff little bit can trade him besides berryhill left handed hitter you know how rare that is cox don you mean left handed whiffer pretty common if you ask me mean he made pat borders look good in the world series pat borders schuerholz hey you re the one who wouldn write lopez into the lineup cox well you re the one who went out and got me jeff reardon besides thought lopez wouldn be used to our pitching staff stuff he got some time with them this spring looked pretty good come on surely we only need to keep one stiff behind the plate schuerholz yeah but which stiff whichever one we keep will be hurt by may cox ok ok you made your point keep them both surely one of them will be on the dl by june at the latest then can call up lopez and then we can win games the pennant the world series ll be up there with john mcgraw casey stengel earl weaver oh they laughed at me in toronto but have you ever had to deal with george bell ll finally get my just reward mwa ha ha ha schuerholz easy bobby have you been taking those happy pills left around by chuck tanner why you ever hire that guy anyhow cox don ask me ask ted eric roush fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu am marxist of the groucho sort grafitti paris tanstaafl although the internet comes close path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse network ucsd edu cogsci king from king cogsci ucsd edu jonathan king newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re binaca blast deep drive derby bbddd returns message id psmbr qi network ucsd edu date apr gmt article network psmbr qi references piisn asq network ucsd edu apr5 sscl uwo ca distribution na organization university of california san diego lines nntp posting host cogsci ucsd edu the engimatic vincent gray writes king cogsci ucsd edu jonathan king writes even less publicized than this however was that the didn come from the padres but from an un named source and that the money didn go to the blue jays in toronto the money was diverted into london bank account owned by shadowy character named vincent gray should be so lucky the account number must have been rejected oh come on everybody on the net has heard about plausible deniability you re not fooling anybody soon after that gray and palmer sent word to ottawa that canada had achieved absolute superiority over the united states in the field of baseballistic research as she controlled both the acker cook pitch alike contest and the binaca blast research institute the prime minister smiled hope not to think that would inadvertantly give any pleasure to mulroney really ruins my day note how quick vince was to make the inference that my post claimed that mulroney was smiling at the baseballistics news this sure looks like guilty knowledge to me realizing the taterific importance of this work john palmer and concluded that we might be able to pool some resources the grand who will be the stars this year can anyone hope to combat brad arnsberg record start to last year the early money has to be on tom tom bolton who contributed that clutch grandslam in his first appearance but expect lots of strong contenders this year many of them right here in san diego jking path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu cs utexas edu uunet mnemosyne cs du edu nyx msilverm from msilverm nyx cs du edu mike silverman newsgroups rec sport baseball subject cubs behind marlins how message id apr6 mnemosyne cs du edu date apr gmt article mnemosyn apr6 sender usenet mnemosyne cs du edu netnews admin account organization university of denver dept of math comp sci lines ve noticed that is has become fashionable lately in rsb to predict the marlines to finish ahead of the cubs how first base grace vs destrade could destrade be the second coming of cecil fielder doubt it if destrade performs to the height of expectations then even otherwise edge to cubs second base sandberg vs barberie no contest sandberg will be back may edge to cubs big edge shortstop vizcaino vs weiss vizcaino is excellent defensively but is an automatic out at bat weiss isn much better with the stick even third base dave magadan vs buechelle magadan has higher obp and is better hitter buechelle has more power and is better defensively think edge to florida catcher santiago vs wilkins wilkins is ok but santiago is better edge to marlins left field conine vs maldonado wow for yesterday know conine has potential watched him play at omaha the last couple years until he actually proves himself give maldonado the edge however like at this is position where florida might be even or better if the player there has huge year center scott pose vs wilson may edge to may even if wilson hopefully the cubs will use may and save wilson for pinch running and the like may isn ken griffey jr but he will hit with homers if he plays full time right felix vs sosa felix jose has occasional power and bad obp so does sosa but sosa also has speed and good glove edge to cubs starters aquino armstrong hammond lot of fifth starters here the cubs won remind anyone of the brave staff but morgan castillo guzman hibbard is average to ok better than the marline edge to cubs middle relief even the cubs have some decent middlemen and so do the marlins carpenter anf klink or decent but so are assenmacher and mcelroy closer healthy harvey is big edge to the marlins meyers is decent but no harvey of course the cubs may have few more games to save look for saves blown from meyers and saves blown with better era for harvey edge florida overall an edge to chicago neither of these teams will threaten to win anything of course msilverm nyx cs du edu go cubs one likes to believe in the freedom of baseball geddy lee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse decwrl rtech ingres brucek from brucek ingres com bruce kleinman newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re when did dodgers move from ny to la message id apr6 pony ingres com date apr gmt article pony apr6 references apr5 ncar ucar edu organization ingres corporation subsidiary of the ask group inc lines in article apr5 ncar ucar edu tparker music scd ucar edu tom parker writes have bet with my buddy on when the dodgers moved from ny to la does anyone know what year they moved the dodgers first year in la was path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse decwrl rtech ingres brucek from brucek ingres com bruce kleinman newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re best record ever in baseball message id apr6 pony ingres com date apr gmt article pony apr6 references apr6 cs tulane edu mssc52ril e0 netcom com psl0jinnam3 jhunix hcf jhu edu distribution usa organization ingres corporation subsidiary of the ask group inc lines in article psl0jinnam3 jhunix hcf jhu edu admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu steve liu writes of all teams believe the cubs have the best record ever in baseball sometime way far back and something think it was the cleveland indians with path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse decwrl olivea sgigate odin luigi from luigi sgi com randy palermo newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re my predictions message id c52w7y n09 odin corp sgi com date apr gmt article odin c52w7y n09 references apr6 infonode ingr com sender news odin corp sgi com net news organization silicon graphics inc mountain view ca lines nntp posting host bullpen csd sgi com in article apr6 infonode ingr com kenney tribe b17d ingr com writes thought post my predicted standings since find those posted by others to be interesting sorry this is after opening day certify that these were completed before the first pitch nl west the best teams in baseball are in this division atlanta braves awesome starters but offense could be concern cincinnati reds would not surprise me if they won it all houston astros any team that signs uribe won contend closer to than san diego padres plantier could be the sheffield of los angeles dodgers better pitching than the giants san francisco giants because the rockies just stink colorado rockies will become the seattle mariners of the nl nlcs montreal atlanta braves fans yes probably contradicting what said in my nl west comment alcs new york minnesota world series new york montreal hating the yankees will be fashionable again nl mvp barry bonds or maybe mcgriff guarantee that if bonds wins the mvp the giants will finish higher than th luigi randy palermo luigi csd sgi com fax silicon graphics computer systems shoreline blvd mt view ca play an accordion go to jail that the law path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse decwrl concert duke news duke edu bchm biochem duke edu from fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush newsgroups rec sport baseball subject reds without sleeves was re new uniforms message id news duke edu date apr gmt article news references apr6 guvax acc georgetown edu sender news news duke edu organization biochemistry lines nntp posting host bruchner biochem duke edu am the only person who thinks the reds sleeveless uniforms are ugly yet another reason why they won win the nl west eric roush fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu am marxist of the groucho sort grafitti paris tanstaafl although the internet comes close path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse emory gatech howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu b61644 student cwru edu spl2 from spl2 po cwru edu sam lubchansky newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re joe robbie stadium not for baseball message id spl2 po cwru edu date apr gmt article po spl2 references apr6 oswego oswego edu organization case western reserve university lines nntp posting host b61644 student cwru edu in article apr6 oswego oswego edu iacs3650 oswego edu kevin mundstock writes from iacs3650 oswego edu kevin mundstock subject joe robbie stadium not for baseball date apr gmt did anyone notice the words not for baseball printed on the picture of joe robbie stadium in the opening day season preview section in usa today any reason given for this would assume that the words saw the picture indicated that those seats will not be available for baseball games if you look at the picture of the diamond in the stadium in relation to the areas marked not for baseball those seats just look terrible for watching baseball now if they should happen to reach the post season would imagine that they would consider opening some of those seats up but that is surely worry of the future sam lubchansky spl2 po cwru edu in the champion people see what they like to be in the loser they see what they actually are and they treat him with scorn sugary condiments secure initial pleasure but fermented grain is decidedly more parsimonious of time path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse emory europa eng gtefsd com fs7 ece cmu edu pellns alleg edu news from luriem alleg edu the liberalizer michael lurie newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re best lifetime record in baseball history message id apr6 alleg edu date apr gmt article alleg apr6 references apr6 corning com sender news alleg edu organization allegheny college lines in article apr6 corning com cecce aj corning com writes speaking of the marlins winning the opener based on lifetime percentage of games won who has the second best record in baseball history soon to be the best record again if had to guess would be forced to say the yankees on the other hand the blue jays might be up there too hmmmmm tony blue jays no way hell but the yankees probably do remember the yankees had the best record of any team in the and probably take the through as well path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse emory europa eng gtefsd com fs7 ece cmu edu pellns alleg edu news from luriem alleg edu the liberalizer michael lurie newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re yankkes game closer message id apr6 alleg edu date apr gmt article alleg apr6 references axe acadiau ca sender news alleg edu organization allegheny college lines in article axe acadiau ca axe acadiau ca jason walter works writes the yankees are now one game closer to the east pennant they clobbered cleveland on fine pitching performance by key and two homeruns by tartabull first baseball to go out this season and three run homer by nokes for all of you who didn pick boggs in your pools tough break he had couple hits and drove in couple runs with many more to follow the yanks beat an up and coming team of youngsters in the indians the yankees only need to win more games to get the division go yanks mattingly for glove and mvp and abbot for cy young jason jason am going to yankee game wed night at cleveland stadium am so happy but cleveland is very bad team who lost severalrs they were an up and coming team now they are just sad excuse for better average abbot will not win the cy melido perez will as bold prediction as they come well herot be in last place by the end of the season mike lurie speaks and the world listens path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse emory europa eng gtefsd com fs7 ece cmu edu pellns alleg edu news from luriem alleg edu the liberalizer michael lurie newsgroups rec sport baseball subject yankee meditations message id apr6 alleg edu date apr gmt article alleg apr6 sender news alleg edu organization allegheny college lines do you realize that the yankees are paying matt nokes dollars this year geesh and maas only gets by the way the yankees are going to win it all yankees are the best by the way jt snow an ex yankee will be rookie of the year path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse emory europa eng gtefsd com fs7 ece cmu edu pellns alleg edu news from luriem alleg edu the liberalizer michael lurie newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re joe robbie stadium not for baseball message id apr6 alleg edu date apr gmt article alleg apr6 references apr6 oswego oswego edu sender news alleg edu organization allegheny college lines in article apr6 oswego oswego edu iacs3650 oswego edu kevin mundstock writes did anyone notice the words not for baseball printed on the picture of joe robbie stadium in the opening day season preview section in usa today any reason given for this yes and the answer is simple to create better feeling in the park the seats will be folded back for baseball games where you saw those words path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu ux1 cso uiuc edu usenet ucs indiana edu master cs rose hulman edu master cs rose hulman edu news from rickert nextwork rose hulman edu john rickert newsgroups rec sport baseball subject mile high runs message id psq90innh93 master cs rose hulman edu date apr gmt article master psq90innh93 reply to rickert nextwork rose hulman edu john rickert organization computer science department at rose hulman lines nntp posting host g215a nextwork rose hulman edu how many runs will be scored in denver don know but some idea can be gotten by looking at the runs scored in mile high stadium during the last few years of the bears zephyrs tenure in the american association here the total runs scored per game in zephyrs games all league games and the ratio found the same ratios for hr year rpg lea ratio hrpg lea ratio it seems pretty clear that denver will have large effect on runs scored ll stick with my prediction from last year that it ll be one of the top in the nl this year and fairly large effect on homeruns though apparently not as large as atlanta wrigley cincinnati and san diego still it ought to be pretty decent home run park john rickert rickert nextwork rose hulman edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu ux1 cso uiuc edu usenet ucs indiana edu master cs rose hulman edu master cs rose hulman edu news from rickert nextwork rose hulman edu john rickert newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re my picks with only one comment message id psqpdinnh9v master cs rose hulman edu date apr gmt article master psqpdinnh9v references news duke edu reply to rickert nextwork rose hulman edu john rickert organization computer science department at rose hulman lines nntp posting host g215a nextwork rose hulman edu in article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes in article psbg8inngjj master cs rose hulman edu rickert nextwork rose hulman edu john rickert writes in article jfr2 ra msstate edu jfr2 ra msstate edu jackie russell writes psg pitt edu paul galvanek writes national league west cincinnati houston atlanta argh here is where you are obviously dead wrong not since the yankees of the and has team been so nicely setup as this years and years to come braves don think that the all star team will be able this may be an appropriate comparison the yankees finshed nd rd and nd finshing and games out of first in and they also finished second though they were only and games out even great teams can lose that why they play the season on the other hand still picking the braves to go all the way um surely you didn intend to compare the reds with the philidelphia the yankees were finishing nd to team that was as good as the yankees while the yankees had aged some from their peak years ruth and gehrig couldn play every position simultaneously imo given the various ages of the braves and reds this season that the braves will be closer to their peak while the reds have slightly passed their peak also if you re going to compare braves and yankees more appropriate comparison to the braves might be the yankees after falling short two years in row in exciting world series both teams won will win the series this year despite the heroics of some old fart on the other team casey stengel dave winfield perhaps so was only responding to the yankees of the and part of the comment if those teams were sure thing and lost then it probably not so unreasonable for someone to pick another team not that did john rickert rickert nextwork rose hulman edu go brewers path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu linac uchinews kimbark thf2 from thf2 kimbark uchicago edu ted frank newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re marlins win marlins win message id apr6 midway uchicago edu date apr gmt article midway apr6 references c51buv kln usenet ucs indiana edu lloyd sender news uchinews uchicago edu news system reply to thf2 midway uchicago edu organization university of chicago lines in article lloyd lloyd uclink berkeley edu lloyd nebres writes look at all that teal bleah indeed if the color teal on team uniforms is any indication of the future the marlins are in dire trouble refer to the san jose sharks for proof but have hope for the marlins was sometime member of the rene lachemann fan club at the oakland coliseum and have deep respect for the guy he gem and of course walt weiss gives that franchise class but yeah whoever designed those uniforms was guilty of paucity of style and imagination ugghhh maybe just child of the but really liked the marlins uniforms the helmets shine nicely in the sun it enough to make me fan ted frank however teel should have mentioned that though thf2 kimbark uchicago edu his advice is legally sound if you follow it the of law school you will probably wind up in jail standard disclaimers james donald in misc legal path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu husc news harvard edu hsdndev news bbn com olivea rsmith newsgroups rec sport baseball subject mark whiten message id olivea atc olivetti com from rsmith strobe atc olivetti com russ smith date apr gmt sender news olivea atc olivetti com lines was on vacation all last week and didn see any news at all could somebody fill me in on how st louis ended up with mark whiten in trade who did we give up arocha allen watson dmitri young or did dal make decent deal russ smith don know anything about but know about some george gervin on being an assistant coach newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu linac att mcdchg ftpbox mothost lmpsbbs comm mot com dougb from dougb comm mot com doug bank subject re info needed for cleveland tickets reply to dougb ecs comm mot com organization motorola land mobile products sector distribution usa date fri apr gmt message id apr2 lmpsbbs comm mot com references apr1 leland stanford edu sender news lmpsbbs comm mot com net news nntp posting host lines in article apr1 leland stanford edu bohnert leland stanford edu matthew bohnert writes going to be in cleveland thursday april to sunday april does anybody know if the tribe will be in town on those dates and if so who re they playing and if tickets are available the tribe will be in town from april to the th there are always tickets available though they are playing toronto and many toronto fans make the trip to cleveland as it is easier to get tickets in cleveland than in toronto either way seriously doubt they will sell out until the end of the season doug bank private systems division dougb ecs comm mot com motorola communications sector dougb nwu edu schaumburg illinois dougb casbah acns nwu edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu zaphod mps ohio state edu news acns nwu edu math nwu edu ccox from ccox math nwu edu christopher cox newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re yogi isms message id apr6 news acns nwu edu date apr gmt article news apr6 references apr2 bsu ucs apr4 oswego oswego edu sender usenet news acns nwu edu usenet on news acns organization dept of math northwestern univ lines nntp posting host poincare math nwu edu here one remember sort of yogi asleep in hotel room late at night and gets call from someone after he answers the phone the person at the other end asks if he woke yogi up yogi answered no the phone did kevin one of my favorites came back in the seventies when two streakers interupted game yogi was at dashing across the field unclad later someone who wasn present asked yogi if they were men or women he replied couldn tell they had bags over their heads path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse network ucsd edu usc howland reston ans net gatech pitt edu dtate from dtate pitt edu david tate newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re young catchers message id blue cis pitt edu date apr gmt article blue references mssc50qa5 dtv netcom com blue cis pitt edu mssc52qmx netcom com sender news pitt edu organization department of industrial engineering lines mss netcom com mark singer said in article blue cis pitt edu genetic pitt edu david tate writes mss netcom com mark singer said we know that very very few players at this age make much of an impact in the bigs especially when they haven even played aaa ball yes but this is irrelevant you re talking about averages when we have lots of information about this player in particular to base our decisions on do you really have that much information on him really don personally but clay just posted it yes we do unfortunately it shows that lopez wasn as good an example as nieves would have been since his last year numbers were out of line with the previous years which didn have access to the point remains though knowing guy minor league history is as good as knowing his major league history if you know how to read it why isn lopez likely to hit that well he hit that well last year after adjusting his stats for park and league and such he hit better on an absolute scale than olson or berryhill did by lot don know you tell me what percentage of players reach or exceed their mle in their rookie season we re talking about you know the mle is not projection it an equivalence it this is how well he hit last year in major league terms rating so in essence he has already reached it would guess bob clay that essentially half of all players surpass their previous mles in their rookie seasons maybe more than half since all of these players are young and improving if that were your purpose maybe offerman spent getting acclimated if you will the dodgers as team paid big price that season did they offerman may have been the difference between th or th place and last place but no more perhaps they will reap the benefits down the road do you really think they would have done what they did if they were competing for pennant sure they didn have anyone better suppose they might have gutted the farm system to acquire jay bell or spike owen or somebody if they were really in contention the point was not that ab is significant sample but rather that he hadn done anything in spring training to cause even blockhead manager to question whether his minor league numbers were for real or to send him down until he gets warmed up for stat head amazed that you put any credence in spring training if you read what wrote you be less amazed nowhere do claim to put any credence in spring training quite the contrary said that lopez hadn done anything that even the bozos who do put credence in spring training could interpret as failure just because think spring training numbers are meaningless doesn mean that bobby cox does it just case of ruling out one possible explanation for sending lopez down the kid will improve playing at aaa just like keith mitchell did wait minute missed something here keith mitchell did very very well at aa aaa and the majors over season then did very very poorly for year in aaa david tate do not know what it is about you that closes posing as and opens only something in me understands can the pocket of your glove is deeper than pete rose dy cummings nobody not even tim raines has such soft hands path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net noc near net uunet pipex marble uknet ac uk uknet cf cm scmgrp from price cm cf ac uk and thats fact newsgroups rec sport baseball subject sax message id apr6 cm cf ac uk date apr gmt sender news cm cf ac uk network news system organization university of wales college of cardiff cardiff wales uk lines any more news on steve status since he lost the starting job would be appreciated thanks gwyn newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech concert uvaarpa murdoch delmarva evsc virginia edu drw3l from drw3l delmarva evsc virginia edu david robert walker subject re young catchers message id c52inb m6m murdoch acc virginia edu sender usenet murdoch acc virginia edu organization university of virginia references blue cis pitt edu mssc50p03 cpg netcom com blue cis pitt edu date tue apr gmt lines most of this discussion has been between mark singer and david tate with valentine weighing in on the same side as dave at various times my opinion fwiw to all mark age doesn matter ability does would rather have the untried rookie with great minor league numbers than the veteran who has proven himself to be average at best don care if he is if he plays better than what have want him out there sandy alomar had decent minor league numbers grossly inflated by the pcl in general and las vegas in particular he should have been projected as an average major league hitter which is good for catcher ll admit santiago numbers would probably come out the same as sandy but don have the league data from the mid to check it out that being said agree with sending lopez to richmond at least to start the season as the box below shows he has one minor league season in which he hit well he has two in which he hit very very poorly want to see that the lopez is real olson and berryhill are not complete mediocrities for catchers especially nl catchers they are essentially average hitters with equivalent averages around if he had hit well at prior levels would say he belongs on the braves but there is reasonable chance that lopez last year was just as much fluke as alomar in or santiago in one year at any level at any age doesn satisfy my standards of evidence javier lopez bur dur grn atl maj min tot maj min tot on similar note don understand why more people are not supportive of neon deion granted thought his behavior with mccarver last year was completely bush last year was the first time he ever got ab in one place so his lines are hard to read but he has combined ops in minor league play with his speed is more valuable than the ops alone indicates and at still young age had monster year with an ops he has total major and minor eqa of above major league average and above average for cf which was about in the nl last year he has shown at least the potential of going into the which would make him one of the best hitters in the league he has two full seasons before reaching his prime season of he should be considered as legitimate prospect and not as simple side show attraction deion sanders fla int eas nyy int nyy int atl ric atl maj min tot maj min tot clay newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net lhc mcmathmac nlm nih gov user from mcmath csb1 nlm nih gov chuck chuck bo buck mcmath subject re giants gm quinn is genius message id mcmath mcmathmac nlm nih gov followup to rec sport baseball sender news nlm nih gov organization ross perot ear admiration society references mcmath mcmathmac nlm nih gov apple apple com date tue apr gmt lines in article apple apple com chuq apple com chuq von rospach wrote mcmath csb1 nlm nih gov chuck chuck bo buck mcmath writes when the giants protected mike benjamin career average ovre pitcher pat rapp there were surprised looks in the bay area benjamin stats ab doubles dingers and rapp even been sent down to aaa so it even better than that eh of course the protected list was done by the old regime not the new so this is rosen baby not quinn and ll tell you what let look at this again at the end of the season and say in three years and see who the genius is one of the more braindead decisions by the oldgiants imho even if benjamin does improve markedly over the past and his hitting is better he never going to be more than utility backup if rapp might turn into top flight arm in another year think the next time post something like this obviously need to make the sarcasm bit more obvious chuck chuck mcmath mcmath csb1 nlm nih gov msd inc national library of medicine national institutes of health bethesda md no noose is good noose hey batter hey batter hey batter swing anon this opinion influenced by cosmic radiation path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu linac att cbnewse gotribe from gotribe cbnewse cb att com richard barry newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re reds without sleeves was re new uniforms message id apr6 cbnewse cb att com date apr gmt article cbnewse apr6 references apr6 guvax acc georgetown edu news duke edu apr6 adobe com organization at lines in article apr6 adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes in article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes am the only person who thinks the reds sleeveless uniforms are ugly yet another reason why they won win the nl west if uniforms really were deciding factor in pennant races the pirates would have never won anything those have to be the ugliest uniforms ve ever seen particular the all yellow set sherri nichols snichols adobe com my vote goes for the indians with their all red uniforms boog powell once said he felt like big red blood clot rich barry barry ihlpe att com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net newsserver jvnc net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu ub oswego iacs3650 from iacs3650 oswego edu kevin mundstock newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re yogi isms message id apr4 oswego oswego edu date apr gmt references apr2 bsu ucs sender news oswego oswego edu network news reply to iacs3650 oswego oswego edu kevin mundstock organization instructional computing center suny at oswego oswego ny lines in article apr2 bsu ucs mbstultz leo bsuvc bsu edu writes here an interesting quote from bill veek from get that nigger off the field josh gibson was at minimum two yogi berras speaking of yogi anybody know any good yogi isms mike curious george stultz here one remember sort of yogi asleep in hotel room late at night and gets call from someone after he answers the phone the person at the other end asks if he woke yogi up yogi answered no the phone did kevin path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net newsserver jvnc net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu ub oswego iacs3650 from iacs3650 oswego edu kevin mundstock newsgroups rec sport baseball subject my predictions for message id apr5 oswego oswego edu date apr gmt sender news oswego oswego edu network news reply to iacs3650 oswego oswego edu kevin mundstock organization instructional computing center suny at oswego oswego ny lines since everyone else seems to be running wild with predictions ve decided to add my own fuel to the fire they might seem bit normal but there are few albeit small surprises american league east gb new york yankees baltimore orioles toronto blue jays cleveland indians boston red sox milwaukee brewers detroit tigers american league west gb minnesota twins kansas city royals texas rangers chicago white sox oakland athletics seattle mariners california angels al mvp kirby puckett al cy young kevin appier al rookie of the year tim salmon al manager of the year buck showalter al comeback player of the year ozzie guillen national league east gb st louis cardinals philadelphia phillies montreal expos new york mets chicago cubs pittsburgh pirates florida marlins national league west gb atlanta braves cincinnati reds houston astros los angeles dodgers san francisco giants san diego padres colorado rockies nl mvp barry larkin nl cy young john smoltz nl rookie of the year wil cordero nl manager of the year joe torre nl comeback player of the year eric davis nl champions st louis cardinals al champions minnesota twins world champions st louis cardinals the st louis picks are what my heart says what my brain says is they will win the division lose to the braves in the nlcs and the braves will win the series against minnesota but for now ll stick with the cards all the way kevin path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu ub oswego iacs3650 from iacs3650 oswego edu kevin mundstock newsgroups rec sport baseball subject joe robbie stadium not for baseball message id apr6 oswego oswego edu date apr gmt sender news oswego oswego edu network news reply to iacs3650 oswego oswego edu kevin mundstock organization instructional computing center suny at oswego oswego ny lines did anyone notice the words not for baseball printed on the picture of joe robbie stadium in the opening day season preview section in usa today any reason given for this also just noticed something looking at the nolan ryan timeline in the preview on rickey henderson became nolan th strikeout on he pitched his th no hitter against oakland believe the last out in the game was made by rickey henderson and on nolan pitched his th no hitter on the same day certain someone stole his th base which overshadowed it it seems that nolan is having lot of publicity at rickey expense imo rickey deserves it and it seems as most of the net agrees with me from what ve seen on it lately they are both great players but imo nolan has outclassed rickey both in playing and more importantly in attitude just my thoughts kevin newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel news udel edu darwin sura net newsserver jvnc net howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl adobe snichols from snichols adobe com sherri nichols subject re young catchers message id apr6 adobe com sender usenet adobe com usenet news organization adobe systems incorporated references apr5 cs cornell edu mssc50qa5 dtv netcom com blue cis pitt edu date tue apr gmt lines in article blue cis pitt edu genetic pitt edu david tate writes as for rushing if there really is qualitative difference between the minors and the majors that requires period of adjustment and don believe there is then wouldn you rather waste lopez year old good season than his year old very good season or his year old excellent season the sooner you get him acclimated the more of his prime you get to use can anybody name player who was rushed to the majors let for argument sake define rushed as brought up to the majors for more than cup of coffee prior at age or younger and performing below expectations whose career was damaged by this rushing serious tend to agree with david that bringing the player up sooner is better but like to look at players for whom this theory didn work if there are any prefer players within the last years or so because then can look up their minor league stats it important to distinguish between players who legitimately had careers below what their minor league numbers would have projected as opposed to players who were hyped and failed but actually had careers not out of line with their minor league numbers let kick it off with an example of player who was rushed although there doesn seem to have been any damage to his career jay bell was given pas in the major leagues at age and performed well below what you would expect from his aaa numbers the same season he got pas the next year at age and still underperformed however the next year at age his performance improved and he won the everyday shortstop job and has been there ever since it really hard for me to see where he would have been better off staying in the minor league where he was performed quite well in aaa during this time rather than being rushed cleveland might have been better off suppose because they might have been less likely to give up on him yes if you bring player up early he likely going to struggle but does that delay the time at which he stops struggling and starts performing up to expectations sherri nichols snichols adobe com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse network ucsd edu sdd hp com decwrl netcomsv netcom com rudy from rudy netcom com rudy wade newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re cubs game of april th message id rudyc53145 igd netcom com date apr gmt article netcom rudyc53145 igd references apr6 oucsace cs ohiou edu apr6 oucsace cs ohiou edu organization home of the brave lines in article apr6 oucsace cs ohiou edu jclark oucsace cs ohiou edu michael clark writes otis nixion lined single to left with two outs breaking up the no hitter cubs win on hitter by jose guzman that might be what it takes to beat the braves this year look at smoltz pitching line hits walks er so and loss path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu linac att ucbvax wilbur stanford edu bone from bone wilbur stanford edu doug bone newsgroups rec sport baseball subject players rushed to majors message id wilbur stanford edu date apr gmt article wilbur references apr5 cs cornell edu mssc50qa5 dtv netcom com blue cis pitt edu apr6 adobe com lines snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes can anybody name player who was rushed to the majors let for argument sake define rushed as brought up to the majors for more than cup of coffee prior at age or younger and performing below expectations whose career was damaged by this rushing tend to agree that players are not hurt by early play in the big leagues the braves organization is fertile ground to test this hypothesis as they had little talent on their roster for some time steve avery for example was rushed to the majors and he fared very poorly during his initial campaign his subsequent pitching has not been affected by his era during his rookie year bill james pointed out that it was relatively unusual to struggle so and then rebound bob horner was also rushed to the majors out of arizona state directly had good numbers immediately am not certain of the ages of people like pete smith craig mcmurty and derek lilliquist the braves pitching staffs were so bad when they came up that they might have been rushed lilliquist and smith struggled but it didn hurt ps and dl may have been overhyped seem to recall cm pitching well initially though don have stats handy douglas bone internet bone luciano stanford edu standard disclaimers bitnet bone luciano stanford edu stanford apply uucp ucbvax luciano sierra stanford edu bone newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net nntp msstate edu isis msstate edu js1 from js1 isis msstate edu jiann ming su subject re rickey henderson message id apr6 ra msstate edu sender news ra msstate edu nntp posting host isis msstate edu organization mississippi state university references apr5 ra msstate edu ls1d6vinns65 appserv eng sun com distribution usa date tue apr gmt lines in article ls1d6vinns65 appserv eng sun com str maredsous eng sun com todd rader writes stay in school you have lot to learn learn what know that million dollars is lot of money know rickey henderson doesn have career out of baseball know if he didn have baseball he wouldn be making near the money he is now just don understand how some athlete who only plays sport for living for millions of dollars say he is not being paid enough if nobody will sign him for his asking price he will be the one hurting the will still win without him remeber many of these athletes have nothing if not for their athletic ability nothing they are getting paid much more than most hard working citizens and they are complaining of not enough pay don have problem with them making millions my problem is when the say they aren being paid enough when they already get million also their numbers get worse path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net usc zappala from zappala pollux usc edu daniel zappala newsgroups rec sport baseball subject angels win message id psvouinna2l pollux usc edu date apr gmt article pollux psvouinna2l sender nntp pollux usc edu distribution world organization university of southern california los angeles ca lines nntp posting host pollux usc edu the angels won their home opener against the brewers today before at anaheim stadium on hitter by mark langston snow and gary discarcina hit home runs for the angels daniel newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net tulane sn01 sncc lsu edu mebonar from mebonar sn01 sncc lsu edu mscidave subject re young catchers message id apr6 cs tulane edu news software vax vms vnews sender news cs tulane edu reply to mebonar sn01 sncc lsu edu organization lsu news references mssc50dfw netcom com apr5 cs cornell edu mssc50qa5 dtv netcom com blue cis pitt edu date tue apr gmt nntp posting host nntpd sn01 sncc lsu edu lines mss netcom com mark singer said most catchers need to be solid defensively players to help their clubs in the bigs those are the arguments against lopez for the braves for this year now the braves have two catchers who have demonstrated solid abilities to call games to work with the pitchers to throw out runners this is the crux of the argument to me at least both the sdcn and the non sdcn camps seem to agree on the fact that catcher defense is basically nonmeasurable at present you can talk about how important calling game is or framing the pitches or blocking balls in the dirt but there is little or no way to tell exactly how various catcher rank in defense looking at lopez specifically is there any reason to suspect that he is bad defensive catcher other then the fact that the braves or the media has labeled him bad defensive catcher as far as can tell he doesn have any particular problem in his mechanics such as sasser he might be little rough around the edges in blocking the ball or framing the pitch to get good call but all he needs to clear that up is playing and practice time can see how repetitions at aaa are any better then reps in the majors all we re left with is the calling the game aspect olsen and berryhill at always given credit for calling good games and helping the pitchering staff but this is reputation that is given to almost all veteran catchers how is catching at aaa going to help lopez learn the major league pitching staff the only way any catcher is going to learn tom glavine pitches is to catch tom glavine similarly wouldn be supprised if the pitcher claimed to prefer pitching to olsen over pitching to lopez because they are used to pitching to olsen but given time they will say they are comfortable with lopez now since lopez can learn how to handle the major league pitcher while he in aaa and since he doesn have any glaring problem in his mechanics what is he going to learn in aaa that he can learn just as well while in the majors dave dave bonar mebonar lsuvax sncc lsu edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel news udel edu darwin sura net paladin american edu howland reston ans net sol ctr columbia edu usenet ucs indiana edu master cs rose hulman edu master cs rose hulman edu news from rickert nextwork rose hulman edu john rickert newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re my picks with only one comment date apr gmt organization computer science department at rose hulman lines distribution na message id psbg8inngjj master cs rose hulman edu references jfr2 ra msstate edu reply to rickert nextwork rose hulman edu john rickert nntp posting host g215a nextwork rose hulman edu in article jfr2 ra msstate edu jfr2 ra msstate edu jackie russell writes psg pitt edu paul galvanek writes since did so well last year here another shot at picking the winners and losers ll skip the commentary on why picked who to finish where due to lack of time for flame wars kansas city think kc has much better shot at being in the top division than the bottom one word cone should help things tremendously think you are way off the mark here another word offense makes them my pick for last too well there also my policy of never picking buck rodgers team for last florida chicago dont know if an expansion team has ever finished not last but think this year might be first if it hasnt ever happened the cubs are worse the angels were game out of th the athletics and expansion senators finished tied for last the colt finshed th ahead of the cubs the mets were last the royals finshed th ahead of the white sox the pilots in last the mariners finished th ahead of the athletics in last apparently being an expansion team with poor or chicago team around is good thing national league west cincinnati houston atlanta argh here is where you are obviously dead wrong not since the yankees of the and has team been so nicely setup as this years and years to come braves don think that the all star team will be able to beat this may be an appropriate comparison the yankees finshed nd rd and nd finshing and games out of first in and they also finished second though they were only and games out even great teams can lose that why they play the season on the other hand still picking the braves to go all the way john rickert rickert nextwork rose hulman predictions for marlins wins rockies wins and rockies fans will claim that the offense is adequate newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net sgiblab sgigate odin krill corp sgi com rickc from rickc krill corp sgi com richard casares subject re jim lefebvre is an idiot message id c52mkq bo8 odin corp sgi com sender news odin corp sgi com net news nntp posting host krill corp sgi com organization silicon graphics inc references apr5 bsu ucs date tue apr gmt lines in article apr5 bsu ucs bjgood leo bsuvc bsu edu writes just wanted to let everyone know that have lost what little respect have for jim lefebvre after seeing today cubs game dishard cub fan if you think that bad just wait until he tries dunston in the leadoff spot again yes also wonder if they can win with this manager never believed managers had that much to do with winning until saw how much they had to do with losing rick newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net sgiblab sgigate odin krill corp sgi com rickc from rickc krill corp sgi com richard casares subject re jim lefebvre is an idiot message id c52mrs bxb odin corp sgi com sender news odin corp sgi com net news nntp posting host krill corp sgi com organization silicon graphics inc references apr5 bsu ucs c51uc6 bl1 news cso uiuc edu date tue apr gmt lines in article c51uc6 bl1 news cso uiuc edu ada41546 uxa cso uiuc edu driftwood writes totally agree with each point you made jose viscaino looked like single hitter up there who swings on count with maddux pitching and your teams down by run and you haven touched the ball all day also think too much is made of that lefty righty thing watching the cubs games get the feeling steve stone knows lot more about what the cubs should be doing than lefebre does harry said it best when he stated after another terrible vizcaino at bat we can wait til sandberg returns tell you steve stone is like prophet he must be making ton in the boradcoast booth because can understand why he not actually back in the game itself the other day he called sosa homerun against the sox and claimed the game would be going into extra innings when the score was in the th so yesterday he notices that sosa ahead in the count against maddux and says this is fastball situation and sosa will be looking for it but this is also the spot where maddux throws the straight change sure enough sosa gets ahead on it and pops it up to the infield stoney for cubs manager rick path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu husc news harvard edu hsdndev newsfeed rice edu cs utexas edu uunet olivea rsmith newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re young catchers message id olivea atc olivetti com from rsmith strobe atc olivetti com russ smith date apr gmt sender news olivea atc olivetti com references mssc50qa5 dtv netcom com blue cis pitt edu mssc52qmx netcom com organization olivetti atc cupertino ca usa lines in article mssc52qmx netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes now keith mitchell as recall no stat books handy surprise he jumped from aa to atlanta in he did so well that he was returned to the minors where he didn do very well at all now his career is in jeopardy so how does he fit in with your point good mle in aa moved him right to the big club now he one step away from being traded or moved out of baseball duh methinks you recall wrong mitchell hit close to in atlanta and continued to walk alot after his promotion he was then think left off the playoff roster and started the next year in the minors where even the braves will tell you he underperformed because he was so mad at going back down he struggled last year no doubt but even the braves blamed part of it on the demotion much rather have mitchell than say mark whiten on the cards russ smith don know anything about but know about some george gervin on being an assistant coach xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec sport baseball rec sport basketball college path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net agate dog ee lbl gov network ucsd edu news service uci edu cerritos edu arizona edu arizona amethyst organpipe uug arizona edu news newsgroups rec sport baseball rec sport basketball college subject chris webber chokes message id apr6 organpipe uug arizona edu from krueger argon gas uug arizona edu theodore krueger date apr gmt sender news organpipe uug arizona edu organization university of arizona tucson lines after the marvelous time out call by chris webber which resulted in technical foul since his team had no time outs left perhaps webber will take the place of bill buckner as the master of choke at least this red sox fan hopes so ted when chelsea clinton secret service agent had to be replaced by an active duty soldier she objected on the grounds that her family dislikes the military krueger gas uug arizona edu newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net sgiblab ultra wayne from wayne ultra com wayne hathaway subject re designated hitter rule message id apr6 ultra com reply to wayne ultra com wayne hathaway organization ultra network technologies references apr4 bsu ucs ekdfc ttacs1 ttu edu apr6 princeton edu date tue apr gmt lines ekdfc ttacs1 ttu edu david coons the rules say baseball is game between two teams of nine players each let keep it that way niepornt phoenix princeton edu david marc nieporent not any more the rules don say that so that pretty dumb argument really my little mind be boggled don have rule book yet so david would you please post the new wording of rule am mightily curious much thanks wayne hathaway domain wayne ultra com ultra network technologies uucp ames ultra wayne daggett drive phone x132 san jose ca fax path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet athena com usenet from ring poseidon sue rankin newsgroups rec sport baseball subject camden yards date apr gmt organization athena design inc lines message id pscdc el hermes athena com nntp posting host poseidon athena com am fortunate enough to have tickets for an orioles red sox game in baltimore on saturday july st haven been to the new park and was wondering if anyone out there can give me pointers or good tips or anything helpful about the place so that can enjoy every moment spent there for instance what time do the gates open do we see the orioles take bp when will the red sox take bp anything you can tell me would be appreciated thank you in advance please respond to my mail address know it still three and half months away but psyched sue newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu agate headwall stanford edu nntp stanford edu bohnert from bohnert leland stanford edu matthew bohnert subject re rickey henderson message id apr6 leland stanford edu sender news leland stanford edu mr news organization dsg stanford university ca usa references apr6 ra msstate edu psbdn lru transfer stratus com distribution usa date tue apr gmt lines and michael jackson jack nicholson and bill cosby wouldn be making near as much money if they weren entertainers so what your point actually could care less what his salary is it has something to do with the fact that we live in america and everyone is entitled to whatever he can legally obtain if sandy alderson and the haas family willingly negotiate salary of million per year with rickey couldn care less but what really gets my goat is the bullshit he spouted in spring training about well sometimes may not play as hard or might be hurt more often in place where not appreciated this quote was in the chronicle about the second week of camp and strongly suggests that he was going to dog it all year if the ownership didn kiss his butt and ante up some more money for god sake rickey you signed contract years ago now honor it and play say all you want to about steve garvey and believe me hated him too but at least when he put his signature on piece of paper he shut his mouth and played hard until the contract was up matt bohnert newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester galileo cc rochester edu troi cc rochester edu kahn from kahn troi cc rochester edu james kahn subject re david wells message id apr6 galileo cc rochester edu sender news galileo cc rochester edu nntp posting host troi cc rochester edu organization university of rochester rochester ny references apr5 iccgcc decnet ab com date tue apr gmt lines in article apr5 iccgcc decnet ab com carrd iccgcc decnet ab com writes has david wells landed with team yet think the tigers with their anemic pitching would grab this guy pronto they did for jim path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse network ucsd edu usc wupost cs uiuc edu pegasus cs uiuc edu steph from steph pegasus cs uiuc edu dale stephenson newsgroups rec sport baseball subject seer stephenson picks the east summary the division has gone to the birds keywords last chance for foolishness message id steph pegasus cs uiuc edu date apr gmt article pegasus steph sender news cs uiuc edu organization university of illinois dept of comp sci urbana il lines having run completely out of time ve got to get my prophesies and predictions for the out qualifications one of the worse finishes in last year prediction contest al east baltimore orioles why the orioles well pondered long and hard and it all came down to this the blue jays are going the wrong direction can bring myself to pick the yankees milwaukee was fluke indians aren ready to contend red sox were bad last year and didn get any better detroit pitching will be the new definition of replacement level but you don really think the orioles will win do you no as matter of fact can see any team in the american league winning either division on paper with the possible exception of the yankees who hate but some body has to win so pick the orioles you don really think that brady anderson is going to repeat do you no basing the orioles prediction on the expectation of big years from cal ripken and glenn davis glenn davis that insane yes so without further ado strong points hoiles ripken some years olson getting rid of billy ripken weak points segui may start valenzuela the original something may be the fifth starter oates puts his best hitters at the bottom of the lineup does anybody else think that might be calculated maneuver to minimize the effect of slumping ripken if you can move ripken out of the spot why not move the rest of the line up would be good sign glenn davis wins comeback player of the year would be bad sign in tight pennant race team trades for pecota obprediction the streak continues harold reynolds leads the team in caught stealing new york yankees strong points abbot key perez could have best pitching in american league boggs should improve on hayes weak points mattingly still considered best hitter the steinbrenner factor the yankees lost to the mets can wholesale changes be far behind never count on rookie pitchers wickman millitello to win division would be good sign boggs hits over would be bad sign howe gets arrested again obprediction mattingly won top ops toronto blue jays strong points management willing to make big deals management has eerie power to convince other teams its prospects are not suspects olerud guzman alomar weak points the jackson for bell trade has shaken my faith in gillick losing stewart may hurt rotation that really bad sign no one in the outfield can get on base pitching is thin behind guzman and ward would be good sign jack morris considered cy young contender in august would be bad sign club makes no major deals in august obprediction morris will post better era and whip totals than last year and have losing record milwaukee brewers strong points pitching staff was exceptional last year weak points molitor gone surhoff at third why eldred can keep it up would be good sign listach and eldred play like last year would be bad sign bones plays like last year obprediction surhoff won finish the year at third cleveland indians strong points baerga belle nagy weak points pitching staff thin losing olin really hurts starts felix fermin would be good sign bielecki era is consistent with his atlanta starts would be bad sign ted power bullpen ace obprediction alomar will be back on the dl by the all star break boston red sox strong points clemens viola clemens detroit clemens weak points most incompetent gm in baseball key free agent signing andre dawson burks is gone hatcher in center would be good sign rainouts in between clemens starts would be bad sign clemens on the dl obprediction russell will make sox fans forget reardon interpret that how you will detroit tigers strong points tettleton phillips whitaker weak points if fielder keeps declining he ll be shortstop this year worst rotation in baseball entirely replaced but not necessarily better this year could be very ugly would be good sign cecil fielder deserving the mvp would be bad sign cecil fielder not whining about deserving an mvp obprediction cecil won lead the league in rbis one more division to go dale stephenson steph cs uiuc edu baseball fanatic it is considered good to look wise especially when not overburdened with information golden kimball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu cs utexas edu wupost cs uiuc edu pegasus cs uiuc edu steph from steph pegasus cs uiuc edu dale stephenson newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re rockies not rookies message id steph pegasus cs uiuc edu date apr gmt article pegasus steph references c500u7 kr8 news cso uiuc edu sender news cs uiuc edu organization university of illinois dept of comp sci urbana il lines in c500u7 kr8 news cso uiuc edu dbl50872 uxa cso uiuc edu daniel brian lake writes you think that an expansion team would be filled with young ns not guys like murphy galaragga smith it depends if you can get your old veterans cheap and if they can perform at higher level than your young talent can now why not the talent develop in the minors while giving the fans some familiar names to cheer if the veterans are gone in year or two that should be just about right maybe someone should tell those renegade front office people in denver open question which was more important to the expansion clubs the expansion draft or the regular draft they ve had one of each think dale stephenson steph cs uiuc edu baseball fanatic it is considered good to look wise especially when not overburdened with information golden kimball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net agate garnet berkeley edu cubbie from cubbie garnet berkeley edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re cubs behind marlins how message id pt592 f9a agate berkeley edu date apr gmt article agate pt592 f9a references apr6 mnemosyne cs du edu apr pilot njin net organization university of california berkeley lines nntp posting host garnet berkeley edu gajarsky pilot njin net writes morgan and guzman will have era run higher than last year and the cubs will be idiots and not pitch harkey as much as hibbard castillo won be good think he stud pitcher this season so far morgan and guzman helped to lead the cubs at top in era even better than the rotation at atlanta cubs era at while braves at we know it is early in the season we cubs fans have learned how to enjoy the short triumph while it is still there path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse network ucsd edu usc wupost cs uiuc edu pegasus cs uiuc edu steph from steph pegasus cs uiuc edu dale stephenson newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re giants gm quinn is genius message id steph pegasus cs uiuc edu date apr gmt article pegasus steph references apr3 csd newshost stanford edu autodesk com sender news cs uiuc edu organization university of illinois dept of comp sci urbana il lines in autodesk com trs autodesk com tom schroeder writes nlu xenon stanford edu nelson lu writes during the same time span the braves developed john smoltz tom glavine steve avery david justice ron gant and jeff blauser among others avery believe came from the phillies jeff blauser avery was the overall pick by the braves behind mark lewis think in john smoltz came over to the braves from the tigers but was developed by the braves jeff blauser isn bad player dale stephenson steph cs uiuc edu baseball fanatic it is considered good to look wise especially when not overburdened with information golden kimball newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net sol ctr columbia edu eff news oc com lgc com rice lgc ita tpaquette from tpaquette ita lgc com trevor paquette subject my day in court results message id tpaquette apr15082643 curly ita lgc com sender usenet lgc com nntp posting host curly ita lgc com organization landmark ita date thu apr gmt lines while back asked for help in defending traffic ticket received in short the ticket was for not stopping at stop sign given the conditions could not stop in time and decided instead of sliding right through the intersection would complete my right turn and avoid possible accident police cruiser happened to be approaching the intersection from my left and gave me the ticket the officer said the only reason that you even slowed down in the first place was that you saw me approaching otherwise you would have bombed right through would like to thank all those who responded favorably to my request for help to all of those who told me to bite the bullet and pay the fine phghghghgh the judge sided with me and decided that in this case not stopping was the safest thing to do and found me not guilty the officer statement and my account of the conditions at the time very slippery backed by newpaper weather conditions were the factors what made the judge decide on his verdict moral if you have never been to court before and you think you have case go for it it is very interesting process and it is there for your benefit exercise your rights trev name trevor paquette landmark ita fahrvergnuegen email tpaquette ita lgc com calgary alberta canada visitor from cyberspace g60 renegade of virtual reality include disclaimer newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net wupost udel news intercon com psinntp dg rtp webo dg webo larry from larry boris webo dg com larry rogers subject re saturn manual transmission problem sender usenet webo dg com usenet administration message id larry apr15094023 boris webo dg com in reply to cimjfg sn370 utica ge com message of tue apr gmt date apr references c5fwjx ka6 crdnns crd ge com organization data general westboro mass lines had exactly the same problem with horizon third gear would just disengage engine would rev up kind of disconcerting sold that car quite few years back but the memory of that tranny sticks with me it also had clutch chatter in first that the dealer could not fix if the lemon law had been in place then that car would have been covered have had several jap cars since then figuring the horizon was my contribution to the american auto companies and have never seen any bad behavior with the exception of toyota tercel with bit of clutch chatter that they did fix on the first try anyway from that day forward have sworn that would never purchase another american car with standard american manufacturers don have clue on how to manufacture five speed transmissions and have been doing the automatics much longer and on many more cars however hate automatics so am still buying jap cars not sure this is any help but other cars do this too cheers larry larry rogers larry rogers dg com big brother larry boris webo dg com is watching data general the opinions contained herein are my own and do not reflect the opinions of data general or anyone else but they should sometimes we are the windshield sometimes we are the bug dire straits path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net wupost udel gvls1 faatcrl faa gov sawicki from sawicki naspac tc faa gov michael sawicki cta newsgroups rec autos subject regal fiberglass parts date apr gmt organization faa technical center pomona nj lines distribution world message id qjs0binnfiq faatcrl faa gov nntp posting host haydn faa gov summary regal fiberglass parts keywords regal fiberglass parts have regal and am interested in buying fiberglass hood trunk and bumpers for it does anybody know of company who makes fiberglass parts for regals thanks in advance mike newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu uunet orca grinch bmoss from bmoss grinch sim es com brent woody moss subject re do trains have radar message id apr15 dsd es com sender bmoss grinch brent woody moss nntp posting host organization evans sutherland computer corp salt lake city ut references apr13 usho72 hou281 chevron com fvt dixie com date thu apr gmt lines in article fvt dixie com jgd dixie com john de armond writes hhtra usho72 hou281 chevron com haddock writes while taking an extended easter vacation was going north on somewhere between centerville tx and dallas tx and came upon train parked on trestle with its locomotive sitting directly over the northbound lanes there appeared to be movement within the cab and out of curiosity slowed to to get better look just as passed from underneath the trestle my radar detector went into full alert all lights lit and all chirps beeps and buzzes going strong thought had been nailed good but no police materialized some but not all locomotives have doppler speedometers the radar head is mounted looking down at the ground to minimize intereference sent and received but looking tangentally at wheel these are low power units and typically won trigger radar detectors unless an unusual situation such as yours arises john john de armond wd4oqc interested in high performance mobility performance engineering magazine tm interested in high tech and computers marietta ga send ur snail mail address to jgd dixie com perform dixie com for free sample mag need usenet public access in atlanta write me for info on dixie com this makes sense radar pointed down because almost every train pass head on that triggers my radar detector does so more just after have passed the front of the engine get little of the reflections as am approaching and the instant get to the side of the first engine the detector receives fairly strong signal for short time it happens with just about every train see newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu neoucom edu wtm from wtm uhura neoucom edu bill mayhew subject re electronic odometers was used bmw question message id apr15 uhura neoucom edu organization northeastern ohio universities college of medicine references apr14 porthos cc bellcore com conradie firga sun ac za dirac physics purdue edu date thu apr gmt lines consulted with someone working on an electronic odometer the design was to use microprocessor based system to write somewhat ofuscated pattern into an eeprom the idea was to make the circuit difficult to program arbitrary values into the eeprom the secondary purpose acutally the primary purpose from the standpoint of practicality was to distributed the writes so as to avoid exceeing the maximum number of writes fof the eeprom being used the microprocessor also ignored pulses coming from the hall effect at rate any higher than mph so as to make spoofing the reading by bench pulsing at least somewhat undesirable this was for an automobile that was not expected to ever exceed mph in operation the case of course might not be the same for your rx the ecm modules of some cars do indeed store info about conditions under which cars have been operated since steering angle and velocity data etc is available it would not be difficult to collect all sorts of interesting demographic information about the drivers use of the car am not aware of any manufacturer currently trying to enforce warranty restrictions based on reading out use data from the ecm while it could be potential invasion of your privacy for manufacturers to have access to data about your driving style it could also provide valuable information from actual field use conditions to help engineer more appropriate cars personally wouldn mind the dealer collecting my driving demographics as long as it is done in an anonymous fashion bill mayhew neoucom computer services department rootstown oh usa phone wtm uhura neoucom edu n8wed path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu malgudi oar net news ysu edu yfn ysu edu ak296 from ak296 yfn ysu edu john daker newsgroups rec autos subject re open letter to nissan date apr gmt organization st elizabeth hospital youngstown oh lines message id qjum9 mbd news ysu edu references qideqinnl79 sumax seattleu edu reply to ak296 yfn ysu edu john daker nntp posting host yfn ysu edu in previous article smorris sumax seattleu edu steven morris says or here an even better suggestion why don you guys go ahead and buy the rest of fuji heavy industries subaru and put either an in line or into the legacy wd wagon buy the legacy in minute if it had nissan engine instead of the horizontal that they seem sentimentally attached to what do you find so wrong with the flat in the subaru or the flat for that matter dod darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them albert einstein the eternal champion path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech news byu edu yvax byu edu canc byu edu mikew newsgroups rec autos subject after market cruise controls specific questions message id mikew canc byu edu from mikew canc byu edu mike wieda date apr organization byu nntp posting host lines howdy little new to this newsgroup but would like to tap some of the knowledge and expertise available here the subject after market cruise controls the background recently broke my ankle in road bicycling accident places five screws yuk in two weeks will be returning to texas my home from my school byu in provo utah as you can imagine trying to drive nearly miles with broken right ankle isn just the epitome of good time my car does not have cruise control so would have to do all the pedalling ha ha with my messed up ankle my question what is the general opinion of after market cruise control units realize that cheap cc cruise control from say pep boys isn going to be as good as factory or professionally installed unit if there is such thing and uderstand that probably can expect much in the way of accuracy looks and that sort of thing but anything gotta be better than trying to drive with hosed ankle have jeep cherokee speed standard engine with kettering sp ignition know distributor cap rotor that set up not electronic maybe you could ve guessed it being an but just trying to give information as completly as can found cc unit for bucks it seems to use the vehicles vacuum system instead of an electric servor motor is this good or bad if did buy this cc which vacuum hose should tap it has two speed sensors one magnetic and one that gets signal from the negative side of the distributor kinda like tach pick up or so understand can use either one which is best the manual says read it in the store today that the magnetic axle set up is more accurate but harder to install is there really big difference it has sensor for the brake pedal just like other ccs but does not have sensor for the clutch pedal so if wasn paying real close attention might push the clutch in while the cruise is trying to get the speed up which would wind the engine up kinda high until got my wits about me and turned the thing off pretty coordinated so this doesn bother me if it were for my girlfriends car then it would bother me but ok with it the installation also calls for an attachment to steady on brake signal and switched on brake signal think can get switched brake signal from the correct side of the brake light blade fuse am right but not sure where to get the steady on brake signal or for that matter what exactly it is any ideas as to what the manufaturer wants and where to get it think can figure the other things out like how to hook up the negative side tach type sensing gizmo and the cabin control unit and the ground and all that miscellaneous business but need little help with is it worth the money and safety risk if any for such device is there any particularly good after market cc are professionally installed ccs signifacantly better and worth the cabbage if the unit saw sorry no manufacturer or model number just that it is at pep boy and its is sufficient for my simple needs how do get the thing installed properly specifically the questions above my father and built veep volkswagen powered jeep cj when was in high school so consider myself fairly good with tools electronics and cars so the installation doesn scare me just want to be certain that get the thing installed correctly as my cherokee is just wee bit more complicated than my veep appreciate your time in reading my post and would appreciate any expertise or opinion anybody has on the subject if you would like to share some of your wisdom please email as don get over this group very often but check my mail all the time again thanks for any help anyone may have mike wieda mikew canc byu edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cis ohio state edu news sei cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu andrew cmu edu dh3q from daniel holbrook dh3q andrew cmu edu newsgroups rec autos subject re did us drive on the left date thu apr organization carnegie mellon pittsburgh pa lines distribution world message id sfnli1k00iv042skgq andrew cmu edu references c55it0 kpu gucis cit gu edu au c56i5d jk5 austin ibm com apr9 cs uah edu cgranfel vipunen hut fi reilly rreilly fnal gov nntp posting host po4 andrew cmu edu in reply to reilly rreilly fnal gov rob reilly whips and their tempers initially all cars were built with the driver controls on the right because that the way people drove buggies so the this is just not so many of the earliest cars had their steering controls in the center of the vehicle and there is no discernible pattern of left or right hand steering controls until few years into the th century when in america at least left hand wheels became the pattern the mule team or horses imagine explanation however seems to have some merit dan dh3q andrew cmu edu carnegie mellon university applied history this coffee plunges into the stomach the mind is aroused and ideas pour forth like the battalions of the grand army on the field of battle memories charge at full gallop the light cavalry of comparisons deploys itself magnificently the artillery of logic hurry in with their train of ammunition flashes of wit pop up like sharp shooters honore de balzac cups day path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu malgudi oar net news ysu edu yfn ysu edu ak296 from ak296 yfn ysu edu john daker newsgroups rec autos subject re license plates nissan date apr gmt organization st elizabeth hospital youngstown oh lines message id qjur8 mgn news ysu edu references apr14 marshall wvnet edu reply to ak296 yfn ysu edu john daker nntp posting host yfn ysu edu in previous article edf003 marshall wvnet edu says hi interested in getting the list for license plate numbers if anyone has listing appreciate getting copy of it thanks you must be incredibly bored have you considered reading the phone book dod darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them albert einstein the eternal champion path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu malgudi oar net news ysu edu yfn ysu edu ak296 from ak296 yfn ysu edu john daker newsgroups rec autos subject re isuzu amigo opinions sought date apr gmt organization st elizabeth hospital youngstown oh lines message id qjv6t mkv news ysu edu references qio5iinncbi technet1 shl com reply to ak296 yfn ysu edu john daker nntp posting host yfn ysu edu in previous article sdexter shl com scott dexter says like the amigo would like some feedback any and all feedback appreciated yet another jeep wannabe designed for yuppies who will never take it off road but want to look outdoorsey dod darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them albert einstein the eternal champion path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu malgudi oar net news ysu edu yfn ysu edu ak296 from ak296 yfn ysu edu john daker newsgroups rec autos subject re license plates date apr gmt organization st elizabeth hospital youngstown oh lines message id qjvvd mvd news ysu edu references qjur8 mgn news ysu edu apr14 marshall wvnet edu reply to ak296 yfn ysu edu john daker nntp posting host yfn ysu edu in previous article edf003 marshall wvnet edu says hi interested in getting the list for license plate numbers if anyone has listing appreciate getting copy of it thanks you must be incredibly bored have you considered reading the phone book dod darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them albert einstein the eternal champion newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet newsflash concordia ca mizar cc umanitoba ca access usask ca kakwa ucs ualberta ca acs ucalgary ca parr from parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr subject re truck tailgates mileage message id apr15 acs ucalgary ca date thu apr gmt references mar30 ns1 cc lehigh edu nntp posting host acs3 acs ucalgary ca organization the university of calgary alberta lines in article mar30 ns1 cc lehigh edu jh03 ns1 cc lehigh edu jun he writes in article mar26 nosc mil koziarz halibut nosc mil walter koziarz writes in article hpscit sc hp com chrisw hpscit sc hp com chris wiles wr ites consumers report did study think and found that most trucks got worse mileage with the tailgate off the tailgates on the newer trucks actually help oh sure they do and replacing the front bumper and grille with closet door helps mileage and cooling if cr actually said that then they have bigger fools working for them than the fools that believe their drivel but who am to argue this just someone that been pickup driver for years that all forget the net just take off the tailgate on hiway trips since the nets aren designed to nor capable of restraining load in the bed anyway around town the tailgate will have negligable effect on mileage anyway walt they may help to improve mileage in some cases believe with the tailgate on the flow structure behind the cab may differ and the vortex drag may be reduced during high speed driving how about those toneau covers ve been thinking of building one from chipboard for roadtrips any comment on how they affect mileage in highway travel charles within the span of the last few weeks have heard elements of separate threads which in that they have been conjoined in time struck together to form new chord within my hollow and echoing gourd unknown net person path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cis ohio state edu news sei cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu andrew cmu edu sg48 from srinagesh gavirneni sg48 andrew cmu edu newsgroups rec autos subject chevy sprint date thu apr organization doctoral student industrial administration carnegie mellon pittsburgh pa lines message id wfnmbjg00wboe3l2c0 andrew cmu edu nntp posting host po2 andrew cmu edu have chevy sprint with and doors it odometer turned and the sensor light started blinking went to the dealer and he said it was maintenance light saying need to change the oxygen sensor he said it is to be changed every but since bought the car when it had don know if the same thing happened at and he quoted for the part and to install it the part cost outside but the mechanic went to could not fix it saying the sensor is placed too deep in the engine parts he suggested wait till it malfunctions before do anything if anyone out there owns chevy sprint want to know how they got their oxygen sensors changed also did you face any problem with fixing it without the dealer help also what are the results of the oxygen sensor malfunction any help would be greatly apprecisted thanks nagesh newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu hermes chpc utexas edu news utdallas edu corpgate crchh327 crchh435 ericy from eric youngblood subject re old corvettes low insurance sender news news rich bnr ca news server message id c5j5mi fmi news rich bnr ca date thu apr gmt reply to peon email eric youngblood references apr15 ns1 cc lehigh edu nntp posting host crchh435 organization bnr inc lines in article apr15 ns1 cc lehigh edu swr2 ns1 cc lehigh edu scott warren rosander writes in article c5csux fn1 news cso uiuc edu gdhg8823 uxa cso uiuc edu george hei nz writes after too many years of school finally graduating and getting real job of course am trying to make plans of how to spend all this extra money right now have an accord good car but not real sporty was thinking of selling it in about two years and dropping around on sports car of some kind after thinking about it may have better idea ll keep the accord until it drops and buy the car ve always wanted corvette stingray my reasoning is that accord corvette is less than what would spend anyway basically thinking of late early for around my question is what are good years to consider for reliability looks horsepower in that order believe it or not horsepower is not main concern if want to go fast get on my motorcycle and what are good prices also what would insurance look like male single might wait until to get the car lower insurance would the fact that mainly drive the other car lower it is there some type of classic car or rarely driven insurance class for driving it under miles per year my dad has vette and its on what you say classic insurance basically what that means is that it has restricted amount of driving time which basically means it cant be used as an every day car and would probably suit your needs for limited mileage in addition to restricted mileage many classic insurance carriers also require that the vehicle be garaged when not in use ericy eric youngblood bell northern research richardson texas peon email privs xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu sorlin from sorlin magnus acs ohio state edu steven orlin subject re changing oil by self message id apr15 magnus acs ohio state edu keywords sender news magnus acs ohio state edu nntp posting host magnusug magnus acs ohio state edu organization the ohio state university references qgi8einnhs5 skeena ucs ubc ca apr14 lmpsbbs co distribution usa date thu apr gmt lines in article apr15 cbnewsj cb att com rdb1 cbnewsj cb att com ronald deblock jr writes you can avoid these problems entirely by installing an oil drain valve in place of the bolt have one on both of my cars there have been no leaks in miles combined miles on both cars yes but then someone would have no problem draining your oil in parking lot all they have to do is reach underneath turn valve and forget the trip home but there is less likelyhood they have wrench with them personally recommend installing special locking drain plug to keep vandals away steve newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet timbuk cray com walter cray com dilmore from dilmore cray com robert dilmore subject re dumbest automotive concepts of all time message id apr15 walter cray com lines nntp posting host techops cray com organization cray research inc references tommy hoodlum c5hqj0 unix amherst edu date apr cdt in article c5hqj0 unix amherst edu bhtulin unix amherst edu barak tulin writes just started reading this thread today so forgive me if it has already been mentioned but what was the deal with renault putting the horn on the left hand turn signal stalk it was button on the end where the washer button would be on the wiper washer stalk could the frenchies not figure out the wiring through the steering wheel or what well before we start calling the engineering folks in france bunch of braindeads for this my mercury capri had this lovely feature this was not the earlier german variant but the newer one that was identical to the mustang of current fame can tell you how many times this feature pissed me off come to think of it my brothers zepher had this as well robert dilmore dilmore cray com going back to an earlier thread imagine having to turn left shift gears flash stray driver in the intersection with your left hand high beam on the headlight stalk and after the driver wouldn move having to honk the horn on the left hand stalk gives me the heebie jeebies barak newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu linac newsaintmail from colombo bronco fnal gov rick open vms ever colombo subject re do trains busses have radar message id apr15 bronco fnal gov sender daemon linac fnal gov the background man nntp posting host bronco fnal gov organization fermilab computing division references apr13 usho72 hou281 chevron com c5fqfy fpq usenet ucs indiana edu date thu apr gmt lines in article c5fqfy fpq usenet ucs indiana edu mliggett silver ucs indiana edu matthew liggett writes in apr13 usho72 hou281 chevron com hhtra usho72 hou281 chevron com haddock writes while taking an extended easter vacation was going north on somewhere between centerville tx and dallas tx and came upon train parked on trestle with its locomotive sitting directly over the northbound lanes there appeared to be movement within the cab and out of curiosity slowed to to get better look just as passed from underneath the trestle my radar detector went into full alert all lights lit and all chirps beeps and buzzes going strong thought had been nailed good but no police materialized could this have been caused by the train radio or what don know about trains but ve saw sign on the back of greyhound bus that warns you that your radar detector may be set off it doesn explain why but it does set off my radar detector from the net desk of rick colombo cd dcd dsg fermi nat acc lab fermilab box ms feynman computer center batavia ill usa colombo fnal fnal gov of course speak for fermilab congress and the president not path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu darwin sura net dtix dt navy mil oasys mcostell from mcostell oasys dt navy mil malcolm costello newsgroups rec autos subject re sprayed on bedliner info wanted message id oasys dt navy mil date apr gmt references hpcvra cv hp com reply to mcostell oasys dt navy mil malcolm costello distribution usa organization carderock division nswc bethesda md lines in rec autos dennis hpcvra cv hp com dennis schloeman writes xsorry to repost this again so soon but xthe information from my earlier post was xdeleted from our system xi am looking for information concerning sprayed on bedliners for pickup trucks xa company here does it using polyurethene xbut they ve only been around for months xso there not much of track record here xis the sprayed on bedliner any good how xwell do they hold up over the years any xinfo would be appreciated xthanks xdennis do you have ziebart dealer in your area they ve offered spray on bed liners around here for several years if you do see what kind of warranty they have unfortunately don know anyone who has gotten one so can help you there also ask if they can give you list of references mack costello mcostell oasys dt navy mil code formerly david taylor model basin carderock division hq nswc bethesda md phone newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net europa eng gtefsd com uunet spsgate mogate newsgate usenet from markm bigfoot sps mot com mark monninger subject car buying story was christ another dealer service scam message id apr15 newsgate sps mot com sender usenet newsgate sps mot com nntp posting host reply to rapw20 email sps mot com organization sps references qhs7dinnj2b hp col col hp com distribution usa date thu apr gmt lines in article qhs7dinnj2b hp col col hp com tvervaek col hp com tom vervaeke writes experience with jeep service dept while not exactly service incident had similar experience recently when bought new truck had picked out the vehicle wanted and after little haggling we agreed on price wrote them check for the down payment plus tax and license and told them be back that evening to pick up the truck when returned had to wait about an hour before the finance guy could get to me when finally got in there everything went smoothly until he started adding up the numbers he then discovered that they had miscalculated the tax license by about he then said he needed another from me said we had already agreed on price and it was their problem wasn giving them any more money the finance guy then brought in the manager on duty who proceeded to give me hard time reminded him that was the customer and didn think should be treated like that and that if he didn back off he could forget the whole deal he made some smart remark so told him where he could stick it snatched back my check and left needless to say they were not pleased by the turn of events early the next morning got call from the general sales manager wanting to know what happened related the story and he apologised profusely and asked if there was anything they could do to change my mind told him that if they gave me the truck for free probably still wouldn take it that there were other dealers in town was repeat customer of theirs and that they should learn how to treat customers etc etc was still pretty steamed about the whole affair he gave me the line about hating to lose customer and they would try to find solution etc etc told him not to bother thanks go somewhere else couple hours later the owner of the dealership called me all apologetic etc etc etc and said that they would cover the plus knock another off the price of the truck told him think about it and he gave me his private direct phone number his secretary name and assured me that they valued me as customer etc etc etc thought about it for few hours and discussed it with my wife and we decided what the hell that was pretty decent deal so called him back and accepted his offer when went back the next day to pick up the truck received the royal treatment everyone seemed to know about the incident even the lot boy everything went smoothly and was out of there in my new truck in about mins so guess reasonably satisfied customer however it should not have happened in the first place was bit shocked to have sales person talk to me like that don expect them to bow and grovel but sure don expect to be given hard time either esp when it their mistake anyway happy with the truck and it turned out to be couple hundred dollars under invoice and they paid most of the first year license fee not sure whether ll go back to that dealer tho mark xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu darwin sura net dtix dt navy mil oasys mcostell from mcostell oasys dt navy mil malcolm costello newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech subject re changing oil by self message id oasys dt navy mil date apr gmt references qgi8einnhs5 skeena ucs ubc ca apr14 cactus org reply to mcostell oasys dt navy mil malcolm costello followup to rec autos distribution usa organization carderock division nswc bethesda md lines in rec autos boyle cactus org craig boyle writes xin article qgi8einnhs5 skeena ucs ubc ca yiklam unixg ubc ca yik chong lam writes hello does anyone know how to take out the bolt under the engine compartment should turn clockwise or counter tried any kind of lubricants wd etc but still failed do you think can use electric drill change to suitable bit to turn it out if can succeed can re tighten it not too tight is it safe without oil leak xassuming you don have russian car with opposite threads then xyou turn counterclockwise would get some professional xhelp here you may not have located the draing plug and xactually be trying to loosen something else xcraig thank you very much in advance winson this reminds me of the first time my cousin did an oil change on his car he crawled under removed bolt drained the fluid replaced the bolt then carefully poured in quarts of oil didn bother to check the dip stick just drove off didn get too far till me found out that he drained the speed trans and dumped an extra quarts into the engine moral as craig said don be ashamed to get some in person help the first time mack costello mcostell oasys dt navy mil code formerly david taylor model basin carderock division hq nswc bethesda md phone path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net bogus sura net jhunix hcf jhu edu jhunix hcf jhu edu not for mail from admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu steve liu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject best record ever in baseball date apr organization homewood academic computing johns hopkins university baltimore md usa lines sender admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu distribution usa expires message id psl0jinnam3 jhunix hcf jhu edu references blue cis pitt edu apr6 cs tulane edu mssc52ril e0 netcom com nntp posting host jhunix hcf jhu edu summary can you believe it of all teams believe the cubs have the best record ever in baseball sometime way far back and something admiral steve liu admiral steve liu internet address admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu commander in chief of the security division of the pi club earth chapter president of the earth chapter of the pi club founded april world champions baltimore orioles why not series in the yards stanley cup champions washington capitals committee for the liberation and intergration of terrifying organisms and their rehabilitation into society the only problem is that the abbreviation is clitoris from the polymorph episode of red dwarf the bangles are the greatest female rock band that ever existed this sig has been brought to you by frungy the sport of kings my god man drilling holes through his head is not the answer dr mccoy you know susanna hoffs has really nice ass comment by flanagan the pi club creating the largest signatures for the past nine months xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net wupost uunet boulder kinglear drew from drew kinglear cs colorado edu drew eckhardt subject re changing oil by self message id apr15 colorado edu keywords sender news colorado edu the daily planet nntp posting host kinglear cs colorado edu organization university of colorado at boulder references qgi8einnhs5 skeena ucs ubc ca apr14 lmpsbbs co apr15 magnus acs ohio state edu distribution usa date thu apr gmt lines in article apr15 magnus acs ohio state edu sorlin magnus acs ohio state edu steven orlin writes in article apr15 cbnewsj cb att com rdb1 cbnewsj cb att com ronald deblock jr writes you can avoid these problems entirely by installing an oil drain valve in place of the bolt have one on both of my cars there have been no leaks in miles combined miles on both cars yes but then someone would have no problem draining your oil in parking lot all they have to do is reach underneath turn valve and forget the trip home most cars have drain petcocks in the radiators and ve never seen nor heard of vandal opening one imagine that there would be an even lower risk with an oil plug because you have to crawl furthur under the car to open it car vandals are usually real traditional in their methods and do things that don get them dirty like keying your car dumping sand sugar or mothballs in the gas tank tping it etc boycott usl novell for their absurd anti bsdi lawsuit drew eckhardt condemn colorado for amendment two drew cs colorado edu use linux the fast flexible and free unix newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com uunet wupost uwm edu spool mu edu darwin sura net udel news intercon com psinntp isc newsserver rit cci632 cm from cm cci632 cci com carl mercer subject mazda forsale message id apr14 cci632 cci com keywords pioneer dx organization northern telecom inc network application systems distribution wny date wed apr gmt lines for sale mazda mazda white exterior grey interior miles interior in very good condition exterior in good condition pioneer dx car stereo cd player fm presets am removable faceplate seperate component speakers professionally mounted in the doors the car has been well maintained wax it often and keep the interior clean its good running car with solid body no rust thru tiny spots of surface rust when see spot touch it up the stereo makes the car have had no mechanical problems with it looking for firm the car has an average wholesale value of about without the stereo the stereo cost me last july if you are interested call or email me at carl mercer cm cci com evening path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc sdd hp com hpscit sc hp com klui from klui corp hp com ken lui newsgroups rec autos subject re license plates date apr gmt organization hewlett packard company lines distribution na message id qk5fi plt hpscit sc hp com references apr14 marshall wvnet edu nntp posting host klui corp hp com in article apr14 marshall wvnet edu edf003 marshall wvnet edu writes hi interested in getting the list for license plate numbers if anyone has listing appreciate getting copy of it thanks you can go to the dmv and ask for their listing although don know where you may actually buy copy you can use theirs for your perusal in california the listing of personalized license plates run volumes each about thick hope this is what you re asking for ken kenneth lui klui corp hp com hanover street ms20bj corporate administrative information systems palo alto ca usa core application technologies fax path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu malgudi oar net news ysu edu yfn ysu edu ak296 from ak296 yfn ysu edu john daker newsgroups rec autos subject re changing oil by self rist another dealer service scam date apr gmt organization st elizabeth hospital youngstown oh lines message id qk5m9 pbe news ysu edu references apr15 dsd es com qgi8einnhs5 skeena ucs ubc ca apr14 lmpsbbs co apr15 reply to ak296 yfn ysu edu john daker nntp posting host yfn ysu edu in previous article bmoss grinch sim es com brent woody moss says was worried about someone stealing my oil once also finally decided to just have my drain plug welded shut it works great figure that when add three or four quarts when the oil light comes on every month or so that it just as good or better than the old wives tale of changing the oil and filter every miles works for me must say did the same thing to my drain plug for the same reasons was wondering how you filled your crankcase though as welded my hood shut also out of fear that somebody might steal my air filter dod darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them albert einstein the eternal champion xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech rec autos sport rec autos driving rec autos vw rec autos antique alt autos rod custom news answers newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech rec autos sport rec autos driving rec autos vw rec autos antique alt autos rod custom news answers path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel news intercon com psinntp balltown welty from welty cabot balltown cma com richard welty subject rec autos welcome to to the new reader message id apr20 cabot balltown cma com followup to rec autos keywords monthly posting reply to welty balltown cma com organization new york state institute for sebastian cabot studies date tue apr gmt approved news answers request mit edu expires thu may gmt lines archive name rec autos part1 most recent changes march addition of alt autos karting rpw welcome to rec autos this article is sent out automatically each month and contains general description of the purpose of each of the automotive newsgroups and some suggested guidelines for discussions the keywords monthly posting will always appear to make killing this article easy for users of newsreaders with kill facilities this article is posted to all autos groups but followups are directed only to rec autos if you don understand what this means ask your system administrator for help or at least for copies of the newuser documentation failing that please subscribe to the newsgroup news announce newusers and read the documentation provided there introduction to the rec autos newsgroup hierarchy rec autos tech is intended for technical discussions of automobiles their design construction diagnosis and service other discussions are largely inappropriate especially for sale ads rec autos sport is 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existence of this group that it is appropriate to create many groups to cover many different marques groups specific to individual marques should only be created on demonstration of sufficient interest via some avenue such as mailing list rec audio car is not properly part of the rec autos hierarchy it is however the correct place for discussion of automotive audio equipment and so is mentioned here rec autos antique is intended for the discussion of older cars usually more than years old although this is not hard and fast rule alt hotrod is not part of the hierarchy but also of potential interest to the rec autos reader it is gatewayed to the moderated hotrod mailing list and is for serious discussion of modifying and developing performance vehicles alt autos rod custom also not part of the official hierarchy devoted to that peculiar american hobby of customizing older cars alt autos karting for the discussion of the popular motorsport and hobby karting rec autos is intended to capture discussion on all other automotive topics crossposting crossposting occurs when more than one newsgroup name is included on the newsgroups line in the article header such articles will appear in all of the newsgroups listed crossposting is one of the most misunderstood and misused facilities on usenet you should only post to group because you feel an article is appropriate you should never crosspost just to reach particular audience this distinction is subtle but important radar detector articles for example are more or less appropriate in rec autos they are almost never appropriate in sci electronics or rec ham radio and the fact that you might want to reach the audience in sci electronics or rec ham radio is not adequate justification for posting to either group crossposting between any or all of the rec autos groups is usually inappropriate if you find yourself doing so consider whether or not it is truly advisable before sending your article consider setting followup to to point to only one newsgroup if you feel you must crosspost crossposting between rec autos and misc consumers is chancy at best in particular flame wars over the speed limit in the us and or the use of radar detectors should never be crossposted between any of these groups most readers of sci electronics and rec radio couldn care less about the police radar and radar detector arguments that go on endlessly in rec autos it is an excellent idea to check the newsgroups and followup to lines of articles before posting followup in particular be wary of posting to misc test rec arts startrek or talk bizarre or any combination of these three the life you save may be your own distribution there is field in the header of any news article which allows you to partially control where the article goes it is called the distribution field it may be very useful for many reasons it should also serve as reminder that news is very large and widespread system the distribution of rec autos is fairly extensive as of this writing the automotive newsgroups are known to reach most of europe australia new zealand and some locations in japan with this in mind offer the following hints about use of the distribution field in your article headers and on article content please take care not to send for sale ads about clapped out ford mavericks in new jersey to france or california doubt that anyone in either place will care except for my girlfriend who for some strange reason likes mavericks but only door mavericks at that when posting technical questions please include the market for which your car was manufactured for example there are number of differences between european market ford escort and us market escort likewise all cc and early cc alfa romeos reached the us with spica fuel injection european market cars usually got carbs often webers these differences can be important to your readers make your situation clear failure to do so can lead to pointless flame wars and significant spread of misinformation be careful about your capacities and specifications when posting in the us we get mix of metric and english system values whereas europe is almost entirely on the metric system future edition of this monthly posting will contain list of commonly used abbreviations that may not be known in some places that rec autos reaches this cuts both ways so let us not be parochial about it use the distribution field to limit where your article goes when possible within north america the values na north america can canada and usa may be used in addition the two letter state abbreviations of the us are supported in some cases if wanted to send an article only to new york and new jersey could put ny nj in distribution field note that multiple comma separated values are legal these distribution fields vary widely however so you should check with your local sysadmin to find out what is likely to be supported in your area the dangers of overgeneralization to amplify warning from the distribution section of this article be wary of making foolish assumptions about all cars tires etc what is true for buick with cid engine may be quite utterly wrong for honda with cc engine headlight laws in sweden are decidedly different from those in idaho the need for adequate specification when you ask question please give reasonable amount of information if you have question about your honda please specify year model engine size etc otherwise most answers to your question may be quite useless concerning lemons at one time or another every auto manufacturer has manufactured lemon or two even honda admits to this please don waste everyone time by announcing to the world that your brand automobile is terrible so all brand automobiles are terrible so no one should ever buy car from the brand company such articles are worse than useless because they cause substantial wasted bandwidth while carrying little or no useful information concerning flames as much as we might wish it flame free newsgroup is something that most likely will never occur here are some guidelines for flames and how to deal with them list of flame prone topics follows in the next section of this posting if you post something truly obnoxious and inflammatory don imagine for minute that including the words no flames will work it won and you ll get exactly what you deserve if you re going to flame you re more likely to get away with it if you can cite fact or maybe well known reference no one is likely to believe bald unsupported assertions be careful about who you choose to insult consider not insulting anyone asking the question it is bad idea to post question and end it with phrase like please send email don read this group it is much better idea to end the question with please send email if there is sufficient interest ll summarize the results in later posting may miss posted responses to this request answering the question if someone wants to hop up their yugo don tell them to get mustang either be silent or give them useful advice if someone wants advice on defending speeding ticket don tell them to obey the law next time it offensive presumes guilt which is not proven and doesn directly address the original question in general don post in order to see your words in print and don post in order to enjoy feeling smug and self righteous stale and or inflammatory topics certain topics are considered stale by old timers while discussion of them is certainly ok and new factual information is welcome ravings about them are extremely tiresome and may get the person who posts them ignored altogether some topics are naturally inflammatory it is difficult if not impossible to have meaningful discussion of them some of these topics include the following the mph speed limit in the us pro and con discussions about the morality and legality of the sale and usage of radar detectors discussions over which radar detector is best discussions over what is sports car this is one reason why rec autos sport is not sports car group everyone would argue about what constitutes sports car disputes over whether or not us federal law protects the driver right to own and operate radar detector buy american discussions clever bumper stickers and personalized license plates insert nationality here cars are terrible what kind of car did maxwell smart drive when have complete accurate answer it will be added to the commonly asked questions article which is also posted monthly until then please don waste bandwidth on this topic rpw please direct comments and suggestions about this article to welty cabot balltown cma com richard welty welty cabot balltown cma com nothing good has ever been reported about the full rotation of race car about either its pitch or roll axis carroll smith xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech rec autos sport rec autos driving rec autos vw alt autos antique news answers newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech rec autos sport rec autos driving rec autos vw alt autos antique misc consumer news answers path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel news intercon com psinntp balltown welty from welty cabot balltown cma com richard welty subject rec autos frequently asked consumer automotive questions message id apr20 cabot balltown cma com followup to rec autos keywords monthly posting reply to welty balltown cma com organization new york state institute for sebastian cabot studies date tue apr gmt approved news answers request mit edu expires thu may gmt lines archive name rec autos part5 this article is one of pair of articles containing commonly asked automotive questions the other article contains questions more geared to the automotive enthusiast and so is not crossposted to misc consumers rpw changes as of april revised brake fluid section as non silicone dot fluids are now apparently available rpw commonly asked automotive questions tire questions what do the funny numbers on the sides of my tires mean typically you will see something like hr14 the is the overall width of the tire in millimeters the tread is usually narrower the is the aspect ratio it indicates the height of the sidewall of the tire relative to the overall width our example tire has sidewall height of mm the is the wheel diameter in inches there are also some special tires called trx tires which have three digit metric wheel diameter designations like which is in millimeters the means radial and the is speed rating indicating the highest speed at which the tire when properly inflated and carrying an appropriate load may safely operate common speed ratings are mph mph mph and up to mph recent changes to the method for specifying tire sizes move the speed rating to different part of the designation you may therefore find designations like r14 the indicates the per tire load associated with the speed rating exceeding this load in continuous operation at the rated speed is dangerous practice what follows is table showing number of load indices and corresponding maximum per tire loads load index max load kg note that the usual mass vs weight confusion occurs in this table in some cases the letters or lt may be found in front of tire size the lt designation indicates light truck and the designation indicates passenger car if no letter is given then the application of the tire is passenger car usage as far as know these letters only appear in the us market the lt designation is prinicipally of interest to owners of light trucks and other utility vehicles for the owner of passenger vehicle there is no meaningful difference between tire with designation and one with no designation at all if the aspect ratio is omitted it is probably but may be tires with an ms mud snow designation may have their speed rating reduced by km about mph there is an additional set of ratings on tires for temperature traction and treadwear temperature and traction are graded and with the best and the worst treadwear is numeric rating these values are of limited value as they are assigned somewhat arbitrarily by tire manufacturers and are thus not useful in comparing different brands of tires my car has tires with funny size designation hr390 can put normal tires on the car your tires are called trx tires they were devised by michelin because of somewhat different bead design they are incompatible with normal tires michelin used different diameter wheel for them so that they could not be mounted on the wrong type wheel and so that more conventional tires could not be mounted on trx type wheels you will need to aquire different wheels to put normal tire on your car it is barely possible to fit normal tires on trx wheels and horribly dangerous to do so the tires may simply peel off the rims in corner or possibly blow out at high speed trx type tires are becoming hard to find in addition to michelin avon makes suitable tires goodyear has apparently discontinued their line of trx tires can rotate radials from side to side or rotate them only on one side of my car car and tire manufacturers have differing views on this subject many say that swapping radials between the left and right hand sides of car is now ok this group includes michelin and goodyear others for example pirelli and nokia will void warranties if such swapping is done the best advice is to read your tire manual carefully before rotating your tires and stick to the manufacturer recommendations how many snow tires should buy and if buy which end of the car should put them on in short and both ends to explain many drivers in areas that don get excessive snow or who don drive agressively or at all in snow conditions get away with only two snows on the drive wheels but there are circumstances where this can be dangerous practice with rear wheel drive car you can choose between being able to start the car going function of the rear axle or stopping and turning the car function of the front axle in front wheel drive car you start stop and turn with the front end the primary risk of putting the snow tires on the front only is that if you have to put on the brakes while going downhill you run serious risk of going downhill backwards radar detectors and speed limits why aren there any comments on radar detectors and speed limits in this posting because questions about detectors and speed limits crossposted between misc consumers and rec autos always start long tedious and pointless flame wars if you want to talk about either of these topics please subscribe to rec autos or alt flame and keep it there safety equipment do airbags really work preliminary statistics suggest the following airbags work much better than no belts good point belts alone work much better than airbags alone and airbags point belts work slightly better than point belts alone the con to airbags is that some designs tend to burn the driver hands when venting the byproducts of the explosion that occurs inside the bag and that some designs but not all may knock the driver hands from the wheel making retention of control of the vehicle after the bag deflates more difficult brake questions do always need to get the rotors on my disk brakes turned midas always wants to do this no there are specific conditions that mandate turning or replacing rotors some shops try and make little extra money by replacing rotors more often than is strictly necessary if the rotors are not warped warped and only lightly grooved then there is no need to replace or to turn them note also that some rotors the rotors on many hondas are good example are so narrow to begin with that it is not practical to turn them they must be replaced when they become too thin warped or badly grooved they tell me should downshift when braking to slow my car down is this really good idea it used to be very good idea back in the days of mediocre fade prone drum brakes in modern disc brake equipped cars use of downshifting to slow the car is not really necessary except in cases of long steep downhill runs otherwise modern disc brakes are more than adequate to stop passenger car in all circumstances and they are much cheaper to repair than clutch linings on the other hand many standard driver license tests in the usa still specify that the driver being tested downshift under braking suggest that before taking us driver test you either learn to do this smoothly which takes some time and practice or borrow car with an automatic to take the test how often should replace my brake fluid probably more often than you do traditional brake fluids tend to absorb water this water can corrode internal parts of the brake system and also lower the boiling point of the fluid dot type are older fluids dot and dot are newer specifications the principal differences are in wet and dry boiling points the dry boiling point is important in fresh brake fluid but the wet boiling point is important in older brake fluid dot fluids have the lowest wet and dry boiling point requirements dot fluids have better boiling point requirements and dot fluids have the best boiling point requirements but dot fluids are not clearly superior see the next for more details while the requirements imply that dot fluids are better than dot fluids there may be specific cases where dot fluid is preferable but these are mostly competition applications otherwise dot type fluids offer much improved brake pedal feel replacement once year is recommended for dot fluids although agressive drivers may profit by changing out fluid more frequently or at least bleeding modest amount of fluid out of the brake calipers fairly regularly what about dot brake fluids this breaks down in to two parts the dot specification looks excellent for performance but the first dot fluids were silicone based silicone fluids are tricky proposition unlike dot and dot fluids they do not absorb water at all while this may sound like feature the problem is that any water present pools up in such systems interfering with braking performance and corroding any metals at the spot where the pooling is occuring the water will tend to migrate downwards in the braking system to the brake calipers where most of the corrosion occurs because of this phenomenon it is essential when converting to silicone to empty the entire brake system and flush it throughly beforehand some even recommend replacing all rubber parts in the brake system when converting to silicone fluids two other issues that come up with silicone fluids they are difficult to pour cleanly that is without air bubbles which interferes with getting good brake pedal feel and while they generally have much higher boiling points than dot fluids they do have high temperature failure modes which are indistinguishable in effect from boiling dot fluids silicone fluids may make sense in some street car applications but they are certainly not recommended for high performance driving applications and the economics are questionable for street use have recently become aware of new fluids that meet the dot standard that do not contain silicones these fluids appear to be reasonably compatible with the older dot and dot fluids but have little information at this time abs is available on some of the cars looking at but it costs more is it worth it this does not have cut and dried answer therefore this answer will be quite long in order to cover the pros and cons the short answer is that abs costs more both initially and to maintain will generally work better for the average driver that is to say driver who does not have extensive experience in high performance driving techniques and may require the unlearning of some obsolete braking techniques like pump braking which should be unlearned in any case now for the long answer abs works by monitering the wheels of the car looking for signs of locked brakes it may or may not be able be able to distinguish between the different wheels there are several systems on the market it cannot detect impending lockup which is what you would really want in an ideal world but only the existence of lockup the sensors used vary some of the less well designed sensors are sensitive to tire size and to brake pad material and may cease to function properly if the owner deviates from original equipment or oe equivalent components when the sensors detect lockup the abs system responds by unlocking the brakes either individually or all at once depending on the system if the driver keeps their foot firmly planted the abs will end up cycling between the locked and unlocked states if sensor existed that could detect impending lockup then we could sit right at that point which is where maximum braking effect is achieved this pulsing can often be felt in the brake pedal as the system cycles the percentage of the time that the brakes are truly engaged is called the duty cycle typically in an abs system this is about on dry pavement trained driver can beat this duty cycle quite reliably using technique called threshold braking on wet pavement braking is so chancy that abs will outperform threshold braking nearly every time unfortunately on mud and on snow often maximum braking effect can be acheived with the brakes locked only audi of the manufacturers producing abs equipped cars has seen fit to provide disable switch for the abs system for this eventuality particularly important feature of abs is that it preserves steering control this is the case simply because if you are braking near the limit and turn the wheel the abs will release the brakes if it sees steering triggered lockup and back off on the percentage of the time that the brakes are applied braking distances will lengthen accordingly an important caution abs cannot exceed the maximum theoretical braking force in any given situation if you start sliding on glare ice don expect an abs system to help you out very much the coefficient of friction is not changed by the presence of an abs system in your car as far as maintenence goes in addition to the potential restrictions ve listed above you have to worry about the following parts costs are much higher the oe master cylinder for my obscure european sedan lists for but the oe master cylinder for the abs equipped version of the same car lists for over most manufacturers explicitly forbid use of dot silicone brake fluids in abs equipped vehicles because of the potential cost of replacement of corroded brake system components regular suggest annual replacement of brake fluid becomes very important what about this threshold braking business normally not put this in the consumers but recent publicity about number of accidents involving police drivers in abs equipped chevy caprices suggests that this section is needed here rpw threshold braking is technique practiced by all serious high performance drivers if made habit it replaces the stab the pedal and lock em up panic habit entirely and is much to be prefered basically the premise is that tires generate maximum braking force when they have just started to slide but just before the wheels lock up entirely drivers who threshold brake learn to feel what this threshold feels like and learn to search for it and hit it on the application of the brake pedal in many cars you can feel that you are near the threshold when the pedal starts to firm up as you depress it in any case if you can hear the tires whine just bit you re not very near the threshold in car with abs often there is twinge in the pedal just before the system starts cycling if the driver backs off on the pedal just tad when the twinge is felt then they are very close to the threshold and they ll probably achieve better stopping distances than if they just punched it and let the abs take over recently there has been rash of publicity over number of accidents and one death involving police cars equipped with abs systems the police departments in question quickly blamed the new abs systems but according to autoweek magazine it now seems clear that the problem was lack of training none of the involved officers had any recent performance driving training there is reason to believe that the drivers reacted to the pulsing brake pedal by pump braking an old and discredited technique of stabbing and releasing the brake pedal the goal being to try and get brakes back with failing hydraulic system if you think about it for minute you ll realize that pump braking must cut the effective operation of working brake system by at least so if you cut the duty cycle of an abs system by that much you are giving up most of your brakes for the wrong reason threshold braking has the advantage in that it is an effective and useful technique regardless of whether your car has abs if you do fear failed hydraulic system then one or two stabs at the pedal will be sufficient gas questions does high octane gasoline help maybe maybe not some cars have knock sensors and can adjust the engine timing or turbocharger boost to suit the gasoline being used on most cars however you should use the cheapest gas that makes your car run well check your owner manual for details on what your car needs my car was made for leaded gasoline will unleaded gas hurt it it is possible that unleaded gas may slightly increase valve wear although the amoco oil company argues otherwise the actual increase in valve wear will be almost unnoticeable however as modern leaded gasolines actually contain very little lead you should however check your owner manual many cars from the early do not actually require leaded gasoline do fuel treatments help what kind should use some do and some don during the winter it is good idea to use dry gas however some may be harmful to fuel injection systems never use an additive containing methanol sometimes called methyl alcohol such additives may damage fuel systems in cars with carbs and almost certainly will damage cars with fuel injection manufacturer opinions vary on additives containing ethanol sometimes called ethyl alcohol if your car has fuel injection check the owner manual on your car before using these most manufacturers consider ethanol acceptable in gasoline additives with isopropyl alcohol isopropanol and petroleum distillates are fine in fuel injected cars an occasional bottle of fuel injector cleaner is helpful in cars with fuel injectors although many premium gasolines contain detergents that do the same job some off brands of fuel injector cleaners contain ethanol or methanol always check the ingredients before putting anything in your gas tank there are small number of particularly good additives these are noticeably more expensive that the run of the mill ones but work much much better among these are chevron techron redline sl wurth lubrimoly ventil sauber and bg bottle of one of these once every six months is highly recommended what about detergent gasolines the quality of detergent packages in gasolines varies somewhat bmw has instituted testing program and gasoline brands which pass this test may advertise that fact stickers indicating passage of the test are now beginning to appear on fuel pumps at gas stations if such gasolines are used then fuel injector cleaners are probably optional beforewarned that while use of bmw approved gasolines will keep clean engine clean they may not clean motor with bad valve deposits lubrication questions what do the numbers and letters in motor oil designation mean there are several different items encoded there is two letter code indicating the type of detergent package that the manufacturer uses in the oil this looks like se sf cd or such the codes are for gasoline engine applications the codes are for diesel engine applications the second letter is assigned in sequence as new levels of protection are developed thus sf is considered better than se se is considered better than sd and so forth the more noticeable designation is the oil weight this is either single number weight or pair of numbers separated by the letter w30 the latter type is much more commonly used these days and are the only type that most automobile manufacturers specify in operators manuals the first number in the designation is the apparent viscosity of the oil when it is cold the stands for winter the second number is the viscosity of the oil when hot there is trick here the oil doesn actually get thicker turn from weight to weight as it gets hotter what is actually happening is that when the oil is cold it has the viscosity of cold weight oil as it gets hotter it doesn get thin as fast as oil would by the time it is up to temperature it has the viscosity of hot weight oil note that these numbers actually specify ranges of viscosities not all oils have exactly the same viscosity when cold and not all weight oils have the same viscosity when hot note also that the novel behaviour of multi grade oils is caused by additives and it has been reported that with the sole exception of castrol gtx w40 oils do not retain their multi grade characteristics well over time w30 w40 and w50 oils work very well though are quick lube places any good some do adequate work but there are quite few incompetent ones out there let the buyer beware watch them while they work make sure that they don overtorque the oil drain plug and keep your hand on your wallet at all times are oil additives like slick or tufoil any good slick and tufoil are ptfe based additives many of these have come onto the market recently they are different from the moly based additives that have been around since the early ptfe is the chemical name for teflon tm trademark owned by dupont in general auto manufacturers do not recommend use of these products most usenet responses to questions on these additives are favorable slight increase of mpg after application smoother revving but long term results whether ptfe additives are effective after miles are debatable some manufacturers such as saab claim that either the product or the engine flush that preceeds application causes deterioration of the oil seals and eventual leakage some bmw owners have reported death of valve seals shortly after the addition of slick to their cars this writer has been cautioned by slick dealer that slick should not be used in japanese motors as it may clog the oil return passages in the engine otherwise there are no known reports of damage caused by ptfe additives on the other hand there are satified slick customers in the world do synthetic oils really work yes but more specifically most auto manufactuers accept synthetics but disagree with the extremely long oil change intervals claimed by oil manufacturers auto manufacturers recommend that you continue to change oil at the intervals recommended in the owners manual for your car even if you decide to try the longer intervals at least change the oil filter at regular intervals as synthetics get just as dirty as conventional oils synthetic gear lubricants for manual transmissions are another matter entirely amsoil redline and agip are very highly regarded and very effective mobil synthetic gear lube gets mixed reviews however manufacturers are specifying longer and longer oil change intervals how often should change my oil it depends on how you drive if your car always or nearly always gets warmed up and you don drive it very hard and keep the revs down the manufacturer recommendation is probably fine if however you drive it hard drive it at high revs or alternatively if you only drive it to and from the supermarket so that it doesn get up to temperature then you may wish to change oil much more often perhaps at mile intervals given that most manufacturers are now specifying mile intervals if you don drive your car much at all say miles year then you probably want to change oil every six months anyway if you are storing car during the winter then change oil before storing it and change oil when you bring it out of storage misc questions my car has timing belt hear that bad things happen when they break what the story it depends on the internal design of the motor early ford escorts for example will suffer severe valve damage if the belt breaks but the newer cars will just require tow and installation of new belt some honda motors will not be damaged but others will be if no replacement interval is specified for your car then change the belt at least every miles some cars may require more frequent replacement ask your dealer or independent mechanic also ask if there are any related repairs that should take place at the same time for example the same ford escorts that suffer valve damage also have timing belt driven water pump which has been known to seize destroying the timing belt and which then causes major valve damage as side effect replacing the timing belt while ignoring the water pump can be costly mistake why would anyone be stupid enough to design motor so that it self destructs when the timing belt breaks for performance reasons compromising piston design so that the valves and pistons will not collide requires that the compression ratio of the engine be reduced significantly this is why you are more likely to avoid valve damage in economy cars than in performance oriented vehicles what causes unintended acceleration the final report of the national highway transportation and safety administration concluded that unintended acceleration could not be caused by any mechanical failure of the vehicle in question and at the same time be consistent with the physical evidence the nhtsa report goes on to conclude that pedal misapplication by the vehicle operator is probably the cause richard welty welty cabot balltown cma com nothing good has ever been reported about the full rotation of race car about either its pitch or roll axis carroll smith xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech alt autos antique rec autos antique path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com network ucsd edu news service uci edu chrisb from chrisb lynx ps uci edu chris barrus subject re warning please read nntp posting host lynx ps uci edu message id chrisb apr15102335 lynx ps uci edu in reply to ejv2j virginia edu message of thu apr gmt newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech alt autos antique rec autos antique organization dept of physics univ of california irvine lines references apr14 rd hydro on ca apr15 virginia edu date apr gmt unfortunately ve got another story to add to this my girlfriend and were driving through west and got pelted by rock just as we were pulling away from stoplight the scary thing was that the rock was heavy enough to put decent sized dent in the door of my riviera which is pretty much solid detriot iron couple of inches higher and it would have gone through the window chris chris barrus chrisb lynx ps uci edu kallista aol com buick riviera boattail peace through superior automotive power sacred cows make the best hamburger abbie hoffman xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos tech rec autos newsgroups rec autos tech rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net news centerline com uunet walter wind jchen from jchen wind bellcore com jason chen subject militech message id apr15 walter bellcore com sender jchen wind jason chen nntp posting host wind bellcore com reply to jchen ctt bellcore com organization bell communications research date thu apr gmt lines saw an interesting product in ny auto show and would like to hear your comments militech tm is yet another oil additive but the demonstration of this product really impressive if it didn cheat the setup of the demo is fairly simple cone shaped rotor is half submerged in small oil sink filled with motor oil the rotor is powered by an electronic motor metal pad is pressed against the rotor using the torque wrench until the rotor stopped by friction the torque that is needed to stop rotor is read from the torque wrench before militech was added the rotor was stopped with about lb ft of torque you pick the brand of oil no difference once militech was added to the oil the rotor could not be stopped even with lb ft of torque here is the good part even after the salesman emptied the oil sink you still could not stopped the rotor with the thin film remained on it they say you need only add oz per quart of oil every miles oz bottle is still have my doubts if this product is really so great why it was so little known the salesman said it is widely used in military didn believe it the demo was so impressive that bought bottle against my common sense has anyone heard of or actually used this product is it real if you are going to the auto show please visit this stand on the second floor see if can find out if the demo is hoax or not jason chen path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu menudo uh edu jpunix mwk cutting david bonds newsgroups rec autos subject re ford sho engine parts message id uupcb cutting hou tx us from david bonds cutting hou tx us david bonds date apr gmt reply to david bonds cutting hou tx us david bonds distribution world organization the cutting edge houston tx lines will not do work on internal engine components of the sho engine this good thing too at about miles my cam sensor went south different ford dealers tried or different fixes none of which worked finally took it down the street to the local mechanic this guy reads the code off the engine computer says bad cam sensor and fixes it in an hour friend of mine had some sensors damaged by flood waters ford denys any sensors are registering bad he and his father did the short circut via paper clip method not sure of the exact technique and read the codes off the service engine light flashes generated from this came up with the damaged sensors went back to ford and told them what was wrong they fixed the car after that what bunch of bozos the cutting edge bbs cutting hou tx us pcboard system houston texas usa running uupcb xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech rec autos sport rec autos driving rec autos vw alt autos antique misc consumers news answers newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech rec autos sport rec autos driving rec autos vw alt autos antique misc consumers news answers path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net bogus sura net udel news intercon com psinntp balltown welty from welty cabot balltown cma com richard welty subject rec autos automotive mailing lists message id apr20 cabot balltown cma com followup to rec autos keywords monthly posting reply to welty balltown cma com organization new york state institute for sebastian cabot studies date tue apr gmt approved news answers request mit edu expires thu may gmt lines archive name rec autos part2 automotive mailing lists electronic mail that is last updated new lotus exotic cars list subscription info added portland or motorsports list corvair list triumph tr8 list rpw there are number of electronic mailing lists on the network devoted to various special automotive topics to the best of my knowledge all the lists appearing here have open membership policies it is my policy not to list closed mailing lists here most mailing lists provide separate addresses for administrative queries and for general mail where separate administrative addresses exist have listed those below as the general addresses are not appropriate for inquirys and requests audi send requests to quattro request aries east sun com autocross solo send requests to autox request hoosier cs utah edu bmw send requests to bmw request balltown cma com both regular and digest forms available british cars send requests to british cars request hoosier cs utah edu buick grand national regal gnx send requests to gnttype request srvsn2 monsanto com camaro firebird gm body send requests to body request boogie ebay sun com corvair send requests to bryan pegasus mitre org corvettes there are two lists the first is more of competition oriented list and the second is more general in nature or so am told competition send requests to vettes request cimage com general send requests to vettes request compaq com datsun fairlady roadsters send requests to datsun roadsters request hoosier cs utah edu dodge stealth mitsubishi gt send requests to stealth req jim uucp wupost wustl edu eclipse talon laser send requests to diginst talon request radius com electric vehicles send requests to info ev request ymir claremont edu exotic cars send requests to exotic cars request sol asl hitachi com fabrication race cars send requests to racefab request pms706 pms ford com international harvester discussion of scouts pickups etc send requests to ihc request balltown cma com italian cars send requests to italian cars request balltown cma com both regular and digest forms available hondas listserv brownvm brown edu use standard listserv subscription procedure the mail message body to listserv should be sub honda your real name with no subject line in the header hot rods send requests to hotrod request dixie com land rovers send requests to land rover owner request stratus com lotus send requests to lotus cars request netcom com mazdas send requests to mazda list request ms uky edu miata listserv jhunix hcf jhu edu use standard listserv subscription procedure the mail message body to listserv should be sub miata your real name with no subject line in the header merkurs send requests to merkur request pcad uucp mopar mostly high performance chrysler dodge plymouth products send requests to mopar casbah acns nwu edu mr2 send requests to mr2 interest request validgh com mustangs there are two lists the first is for mustangs through the second for mustangs from on nobody cares about the mustang ii so don ask classic send requests to classic mustangs request hpfctjc fc hp com modern send requests to mustangs request cup hp com offroad x4 send requests to offroad request ai gtri gatech edu porsches send requests to porschephiles request tta com portland oregon motorsports activities send requests to pdxracer request reed edu rally send requests to rally request stratus com rx7 send requests to jjn cblpf att com saabs send requests to saab network mhs compuserve com saturn send requests to saturn request oar net school high performance driving schools send requests to school request balltown cma com sentra se g20 n2000 send requests to se request pencom com supras send requests to supras request vicor com toyota send requests to toyota request quack sac ca us triumph tr7 v8 tr8 send requests to jtc ccwf cc utexas edu volvos requests to swedishbricks request me rochester edu wheel to wheel racing forum for race drivers workers crew and wannabes send requests to wheeltowheel request abingdon sun com cars nissan datsun send requests to car request dixie com richard welty welty cabot balltown cma com nothing good has ever been reported about the full rotation of race car about either its pitch or roll axis carroll smith xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech rec autos sport rec autos driving rec autos vw alt autos antique news answers newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech rec autos sport rec autos driving rec autos vw alt autos antique news answers path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net bogus sura net udel news intercon com psinntp balltown welty from welty cabot balltown cma com richard welty subject rec autos the rec autos archive server message id apr20 cabot balltown cma com followup to rec autos keywords monthly posting reply to welty balltown cma com organization new york state institute for sebastian cabot studies date tue apr gmt approved news answers request mit edu lines archive name rec autos part3 the automotive articles archive server the automotive archive server is in the process of being rehosted and is presently not available richard welty welty cabot balltown cma com nothing good has ever been reported about the full rotation of race car about either its pitch or roll axis carroll smith xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech rec autos sport rec autos driving rec autos vw alt autos antique news answers newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech rec autos sport rec autos driving rec autos vw alt autos antique news answers path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net bogus sura net udel news intercon com psinntp balltown welty from welty cabot balltown cma com richard welty subject rec autos frequently asked questions message id apr20 cabot balltown cma com followup to rec autos keywords monthly posting reply to welty balltown cma com organization new york state institute for sebastian cabot studies date tue apr gmt approved news answers request mit edu expires thu may gmt lines archive name rec autos part4 this article is one of pair of articles containing commonly asked automotive questions the other article contains questions of general consumer interest and is broken out to facilitate crossposting to misc consumers rpw last change february ct now permits radar detector usage new tire traction rpw commonly asked questions radar questions where are radar detectors illegal in the us currently virgina and the district of columbia prohibit all usage of radar detectors new york prohibits their use in large trucks in canada they are illegal in manitoba ontario quebec newfoundland and pei prince edward island they are apparently are illegal through most if not all of europe legislation which would make them illegal is pending in many other jurisdictions chances of such legislation passing varies great deal where are radar detector detectors used do they really work usage is spreading rapidly initially they were used only in canada but now they are appearing in new york and virginia it is unsafe to assume that they are not in use in connecticut and they work by detecting certain frequency radiated by many currently available super het radar detectors some brands of detector radiate more strongly than others and are thus more likely to be spotted new radar detectors are becoming available which may not be detected by the current generation of detector detectors note that detector may only be spotted by one of these devices if it is turned on what is vascar is it some kind of radar vascar is nothing more than fancy stopwatch and time speed distance computer it depends on the operator pressing buttons as the target vehicle passes landmarks no radar signals are emitted by vascar system what is ka band radar where is it used should radar detector be able to handle it ka band has recently been made available by the fcc for use in the us in so called photo radar installations in these installations low powered beam is aimed across the road at degree angle to the direction of traffic and picture is taken of vehicles which the radar unit determines to have been in violation of the speed limit tickets are mailed to the owner of the vehicle because of the low power and the degree angle many people believe that radar detector cannot give reasonable warning of ka band radar unit although some manufacturers of radar detectors have added such capability anyway the number of locales where photo radar is in use is limited and some question the legality of such units best advice learn what photo radar units look like and keep track of where they are used or else don speed do radar jammers work are they legal quick answer no and not in the usa detailed answer cheap radar jammers do not work well at all jammers that work are expensive and usually the property of the military jammers are major violation of the regulations of the federal communications commission of the usa driving technique and vehicle dynamics questions what are understeer and oversteer understeer and oversteer are terms describing the behaviour of car while cornering near the limit limit of adhesion that is most drivers do not normally drive hard enough for these terms to be descriptive of the situations they encounter simply put they tell whether the car wants to go straight in corner steer less or understeer or it wants to turn more in corner oversteer understeer is commonly designed into most production cars so that untrained drivers inadvertantly traveling too fast won get into trouble understeer may also be induced by using too much throttle in corner oversteer is designed into some more performance oriented cars it may be induced by lifting on the throttle trailing throttle oversteer or tto in extreme cases lifting on the throttle may induce so much oversteer that the car reacts by fishtailing or spinning some technical details in corner at speed the tires on the car will develop what are called slip angles the slip angle is the angular difference between the direction that the car is traveling and the direction that the steering wheel is directing the car to travel in understeer the front wheels have greater slip angle than the rear wheels in oversteer the rear wheels have greater slip angle than the front wheels what is rev matched downshift when downshifting the engine must be rotating faster in the lower gear than it was in the higher gear however during downshift normally you declutch and lift your foot from the throttle so the revs drop rather than increase in rev matched downshift you blip the throttle before re engaging the clutch so that the engine will already be up to the new speed this results in much smoother and faster downshift what does heel and toe mean heel and toe is technique used to do rev matched downshift while braking this is normally challenging because you need the right foot for both the brake and throttle it is called heel and toe because you use one end of the foot on the brake and the other on the throttle to match revs for the downshift in many modern cars this is misnomer often you must use the ball of the foot on the brake and the right side on the throttle note that some race car drivers will skip the clutch and just use the left foot on the brake and the right foot on the throttle accomplishing the same thing what is double clutch downshifting while your right foot is doing the above your left foot can do one of three things nothing declutch once or declutch twice the reason for declutching twice is to match the speeds of the two shafts in the transmission to the speed of the engine this is usually coupled with rev matching so that while the engine is in neutral and the clutch engaged the throttle is blipped and both shafts of the transmission speed up the procedure is as follows declutch move gearshift lever to neutral engage clutch match revs declutch move gearshift lever to next lower gear engage clutch this sounds like lot of work but with practice it becomes natural the problem that double clutching solves is normally the function of the synchronizers within the gearbox in transmissions without synchros or with very worn synchros double clutching makes it much easier to shift basically if you double clutch well you are not using the synchros at all this is generally unnecessary on street cars with synchros in good condition what do the numbers for acceleration from mile skidpad and slalom times in the auto magazines really mean may they be compared in short not as much as the magazines want you to believe and almost never in more detail the acceleration numbers mph and mile times in the us may be vaguely compared as long as they all come from the same source testing procedures vary so much from magazine to magazine that comparing road track number to car driver number is quite pointless keep in mind too that the same variation applies from driver to driver on the street the driver is major often the major part of the equation skidpads vary and even if they didn skidpad figures are really only tests of the stickiness of the stock tires they change radically when tire compounds change do not make any assumptions about the comparative handling of say two sports sedans based on skidpad numbers this is not to suggest that skidpads are without value however skidpads are an excellent educational tool at driving schools they are simply of limited value in the comparison of anything except tires slalom times are slightly more useful they test some small parts of the automobile transient response however they are also heavily influenced by the stock rubber on the car and they do not test many corners of the car envelope they do not tell you all you need to know before making buying decision for example they don tell you what the rear end of the car will do on road which suddenly goes off camber when car has an adjustable suspension these tests are usually done in the sport setting which may be quite unsuitable for daily driving the list of caveats could go on for page after page my buddy claims that wide tires don make any difference according to his freshman physics textbook and that you can ever accelerate or corner at more than does he know what he talking about in short he hasn got clue in more detail the equations for friction used in freshman physics textbooks presume that the surfaces are smooth dry and non deformable none of which properly apply to tire traction except in the case of stone cold tire on dry pavement which is far below its proper operating temperature pavement is never smooth it is always irregular to greater or lesser extent tires which are not really dry and solid as rubber is substance which in its natural form is liquid and which has only been coerced into semblance of solidity by chemical magic deform to match the surface of the pavement which vehicle is traveling over in tire at operating temperature grip is actually generated by shear stresses inside the deformed rubber and not by anything even remotely resembling friction in the freshman physics sense of the term the colder tire is relative to its operating temperature the closer its behaviour will be to the traditional concept of friction if much hotter than the its proper operating temperature the more likely the possibility of some part of the tire actually reverting to liquid which is mostly like to happen deep in the tread causing characteristic blisters and chunking this latter though is almost completely unlikely to happen in normal street driving so unless you re competition driver or do lot of high speed track driving don worry about it because tire traction is completely out of the domain of simple friction it does not obey the freshman physics equation at all thus dragsters accelerate at more than and race cars corner and brake at more than because simple friction does not apply it is actually possible for different sized contact patches to generate differing amounts of grip an actual analysis of tire behavior would require techniques such as finite element analysis due to the complexity of the mechanism misc questions what does name or acronym stand for here is list of some of the names which are commonly asked about be careful in soliciting the meanings of other names as misinformation abounds on the net in particular never ask in rec humor if you want useful result saab svenska aeroplan or the swedish airplane corporation alfa societa anonima lombarda fabbrica automobili or the lombardy automobile manufacturing company fiat fabbrica italiana di automobili torino or the italian automobile manufacturers of turin bmw bayerische motoren werke or bavarian motor works mg morris garage does vw own porsche no porsche is publicly held company controlled by the porsche and piech families porsche has extensive business dealings with vw audi which causes some confusion since currently porsche is in some financial difficulty there is possibility that mercedes or vw may be interested in purchasing the company in the near future but this is only speculation at this time richard welty welty cabot balltown cma com nothing good has ever been reported about the full rotation of race car about either its pitch or roll axis carroll smith xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech rec autos sport rec autos driving rec autos vw rec autos antique news answers newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech rec autos sport rec autos driving rec autos vw rec autos antique news answers path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu darwin sura net udel news intercon com psinntp balltown welty from welty cabot balltown cma com richard welty subject rec autos automotive mailing lists how to set up your own message id apr20 cabot balltown cma com followup to rec autos keywords monthly posting reply to welty balltown cma com organization new york state institute for sebastian cabot studies date tue apr gmt approved news answers request mit edu lines archive name rec autos part6 new article as of february rpw many people want to set up mailing lists for their favorite automotive topics rather fewer know how to do it this article will provide the essential information for doing so on standard unix systems shell script and examples of alias file setups are included which presently run on sparc here at balltown cma com for number of mailing lists note that if you do set up an automotive mailing list please let me know of the request address so that can list it in the montly rec autos posting also inform the keeper of the usenet list of lists check news answers for this monthly posting first of all to get anywhere you need to either be sysadmin or have some measure of assistance from your sysadmin it is also important that you have reasonably good network connectivity if it seems like you get everything several days after anyone else or that you have trouble getting email through then your network connectivity is probably not good enough listserv there is handy automated mailing list package named listserv which is available from several ftp servers on the network details of the installation and operation of listserv are beyond the scope of this article but anyone who is considering running large mailing list should probably look at listserv carefully the alias file on typical unix system there is file named usr lib aliases on whichever file server is your mail host it contains lines such as foo bar baz bletch which means that any email sent the name foo on that host is redistributed to users bar baz and bletch thus the simplest possible email list is my favorite car member1 member2 member3 my address my favorite car request my address this has couple of problems the most noticeable one being that you have to be superuser to edit the alias file however you can do the following with the connivance of your sysadmin my favorite car include home mydir misc autos my favorite car list my favorite car request my address where the file specified is list of comma and newline separated addresses this file can be in the list admin home directory owned by the list admin bounced mail this still has problem bounced mail usually gets distributed to all the members of the list which is generally considered somewhat irritating therefore the way that the driving school mailing list is set up is instructive thanks to harpal chohan of the bmw list for this setup by the way not sure where he got it from school request welty school rebroadcast include home newwelty misc autos school list school usr local adm bin explscript school owner school school request owner school out school request here what is going on here the owner and request addresses are intended as traps for bounced mail coming from the network the request address also serves as the point of contact for administrative duties school is what people send mail to instead of pointing at addresses it points at shell script which rewrites headers before resending the email school broadcast of which nobody except me knows the name the name has been changed here to protect my own sanity points at the actual list members the shell script use is as follows bin sh cd tmp sed reply to sender from echo reply to balltown cma com echo errors to request balltown cma com echo sender request balltown cma com cat usr lib sendmail om request balltown cma com the mailing list rebroadcast exit note that this script does not know the name of the list the name is passed in from outside so that the script may be used for multiple lists run several out of this site the script excises reply to sender and from lines from the incoming message substitutes for sender and reply to and adds errors to of all email bounce messages end up being sent to the request or owner addresses if this header rewrite is done for digested lists there is some digestification software around hopefully ll be able to provide more information in future version of this posting richard welty welty balltown cma com richard welty welty cabot balltown cma com nothing good has ever been reported about the full rotation of race car about either its pitch or roll axis carroll smith newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet newsflash concordia ca mizar cc umanitoba ca access usask ca kakwa ucs ualberta ca acs ucalgary ca parr from parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr subject re dumbest automotive concepts of all time message id apr15 acs ucalgary ca date thu apr gmt references mar29 uncavx unca edu qa1 wichitaks ncr com nntp posting host acs3 acs ucalgary ca organization the university of calgary alberta lines in article qa1 wichitaks ncr com jhart qa1 wichitaks ncr com jim hart writes in article mar29 uncavx unca edu bwillard uncavx unca edu writes my top list of dumbest automotive concepts ever dodge colt vista tachometer only avail with automatic trans back up lights on corvette they re on the sides of the car sure would be interested to know what year this was don seem to recall any car with back up lights on the sides much less any corvette suppose could be mis interpreting what you are trying to say here just quick comment backup lights mounted on the side would actually be extremely useful for people backing out of parking stalls regards charles within the span of the last few weeks have heard elements of separate threads which in that they have been conjoined in time struck together to form new chord within my hollow and echoing gourd unknown net person xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech alt autos antique rec autos antique newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech alt autos antique rec autos antique path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net wupost uwm edu cs utexas edu geraldo cc utexas edu portal austin ibm com awdprime austin ibm com madman from madman austin ibm com steve heracleous subject re warning please read originator madman suave austin ibm com sender news austin ibm com news id message id c5jcpa ptt austin ibm com date thu apr gmt references apr14 rd hydro on ca apr15 virginia edu organization ibm austin lines this is two sided problem unfortunately our culture has been deteriorating over time the breeding of these low life is getting worse our justice system is at best extremely weak to handle these problems that is why low abiding citizens should have the power to protect themselves and their property using deadly force if necessary anywhere threat is imminent my camaro my pride and joy got stolen right out of my driveway few years back the persons that did that were eventually caught lucky for me but not before having trashed the car on another occasion on my way from texas to florida had stopped in small motel for the night in small town somewhere in florida about youths were disturbing my car setting off the alarm and challenging me to come out when and another tenant walked out with magnum and automatic respectively they vanished needless to say immediately packed up and left watch out for car jacking and staged accidents they can be deadly steve heracleous path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net news centerline com jimf from jimf centerline com jim frost newsgroups rec autos subject re warning please read date apr gmt organization centerline software inc lines message id qk7t5 dg armory centerline com references apr14 rd hydro on ca apr15 virginia edu nntp posting host ejv2j virginia edu erik velapoldi writes what the hell is happening to this great country of ours can see boyhood pranks of peeing off of bridges and such but pound rocks has our society really stooped this low you make it sound like this behavior is new it isn lot of pedestrian bridges have fencing that curls up over the sidewalk to make this kind of think lot harder to do don understand the mentality myself but then again couldn figure out move glad they bombed em or the waco wackos either newsgroup list trimmed significantly jim frost jimf centerline com xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu sorlin from sorlin magnus acs ohio state edu steven orlin subject re changing oil by self message id apr15 magnus acs ohio state edu keywords sender news magnus acs ohio state edu nntp posting host magnusug magnus acs ohio state edu organization the ohio state university references apr14 lmpsbbs co apr15 magnus ac distribution usa date thu apr gmt lines in article apr15 colorado edu drew kinglear cs colorado edu drew eckhardt writes most cars have drain petcocks in the radiators and ve never seen nor heard of vandal opening one imagine that there would be an even lower risk with an oil plug because you have to crawl furthur under the car to open it car vandals are usually real traditional in their methods and do things that don get them dirty like keying your car dumping sand sugar or mothballs in the gas tank tping it etc usually go enough places and you ll see stuff happen you didn think did steve newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet infonode ingr b30news ws19 b30 ingr com tulsi from tulsi ws19 b30 ingr com neeraj tulsian subject re mazda rx7 parts jc whitney message id apr15 b30news b30 ingr com lines sender usenet b30news b30 ingr com usenet feed reply to tulsi ws19 b30 ingr com organization intergraph al references apr12 hplabsz hpl hp com date thu apr gmt their number is they are based in chicago il in case you need to call dir assistance their prices are more down to earth than any other source for car innards outers they will send you free catalog neeraj path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet utcsri csri toronto edu mart newsgroups rec autos from mart csri toronto edu mart molle subject re dumbest automotive concepts of all time message id apr15 jarvis csri toronto edu references mar29 uncavx unca edu qa1 wichitaks ncr com apr15 acs ucalgary ca date apr gmt lines parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr writes my top list of dumbest automotive concepts ever back up lights on corvette they re on the sides of the car sure would be interested to know what year this was don seem to recall any car with back up lights on the sides much less any corvette suppose could be mis interpreting what you are trying to say here just quick comment backup lights mounted on the side would actually be extremely useful for people backing out of parking stalls while can think of any corvettes with side mounted backup lights know that saab started using them about years ago my saab didn have them but friend saab certainly did in addition to the confentional tail light mounted backup lights they had another set integrated into the front turn signal assembly for those of you who don remember saabs of that vintage had an enormous multicoloured plastic growth about the size of national geographic magazine sticking out of the front fender which incorporated amber parking lights amber side marker lights reflectors white cornering lamps like american luxury cars aimed towards the side of the road when you have your turn indicators on and white backup lights aimed towards the back of the car when you have selected reverse gear the glossy brochure showed how these front mounted backup lights were useful for illuminating hazards pot holes kid toys etc that would be run over by the front of the car if you had the wheels turned while backing up mart molle computer systems research institute university of toronto toronto canada m5s a4 newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet timbuk cray com walter cray com ferris ernie from ernie cray com ernest smith subject re aftermarket units message id apr15 walter cray com originator ernie ferris lines nntp posting host ferris cray com organization cray research inc distribution usa date apr cdt in article qcaueinnmt8 axon cs unc edu andrew brandt writes looked into getting installed on my honda crx si the unit is plus shipping installation is like hours on top of that this is hunk of change does anyone know any place that does aftermarket installation not with honda unit but some third party unit cannot seem to find anyone who can put third party unit in honda am in no carolina so would prefer some place nearby but any references would be handy thx andy brandt cs unc edu les bartel comments sorry can help you with your question but do have comment to make concerning aftermarket units have frost king or frost temp forget which aftermarket unit on my cavalier and am quite unhappy with it the fan is noisy and doesn put out much air will never have an aftermarket installed in any of my vehicles again just can trust the quality and performance after this experience les les bartel going to live forever let me add my in had installed by the ford garage and it did not work as well as the that was installed by the factory in pickups identical to mine have talked to other people that have had the same result don know if this is just probable with ford or what ernie smith newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet timbuk cray com walter cray com ferris ernie from ernie cray com ernest smith subject re aftermarket units message id apr15 walter cray com originator ernie ferris lines nntp posting host ferris cray com organization cray research inc distribution usa date apr cdt in article qcaueinnmt8 axon cs unc edu andrew brandt writes looked into getting installed on my honda crx si the unit is plus shipping installation is like hours on top of that this is hunk of change does anyone know any place that does aftermarket installation not with honda unit but some third party unit cannot seem to find anyone who can put third party unit in honda am in no carolina so would prefer some place nearby but any references would be handy thx andy brandt cs unc edu les bartel comments sorry can help you with your question but do have comment to make concerning aftermarket units have frost king or frost temp forget which aftermarket unit on my cavalier and am quite unhappy with it the fan is noisy and doesn put out much air will never have an aftermarket installed in any of my vehicles again just can trust the quality and performance after this experience les les bartel going to live forever let me add my in had installed by the ford garage and it did not work as well as the that was installed by the factory in pickups identical to mine have talked to other people that have had the same result don know if this is just problem with ford or what ernie smith newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet pipex bnr co uk bnrgate bcars267 bcars194 don from don bcars194 bnr ca don skanes subject jeep laredo experiences message id apr15 bnr ca keywords jeep laredo sender don bcars194 don skanes nntp posting host bcars194 organization bell northern research ottawa canada date thu apr gmt lines have been looking at buying jeep laredo and was wondering if anyone had any bad or good experiences with this model is it all that much different than the other yjs it looks feels and sounds like nice vehicle even thought the price is rather steep for an canadian don bnr ca newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net wupost newsfeed rice edu nb rockwell com drexler wade from wade nb rockwell com wade guthrie subject re curious about the porsche drove message id wade drexler organization rockwell international references wade drexler apr13 progress com takaharu microlab2 med upenn edu qhnrp n3p news ysu edu date thu apr gmt lines ak954 yfn ysu edu albion bowers writes in previous article wade nb rockwell com wade guthrie says takaharu mail sas upenn edu taka mizutani writes in article apr13 progress com damelio progress com stephen amelio wrote wrote this is consistent with the pre the engine before that was litre or less depending on how early you go and got its power at high revs starting slowly at about and jumping up at around with narrow band the was litre and had lot of smog equipment if you got much power at all it be better distributed through the rev range bzzzt wrong answer it really depends on whether you are talking model year or date of manufacture for instance mine was but was manufactured in august of prior to all were liter for the and model years they were liter for the and model years they were liter except for the carerra rs which was liter the and later years were easily identified by the new mph bumpers most models in the year were lietsr except the carerra rsr which was liter us carerras from were liter models in they went to liter and there was only single model the sc think of it as cross between the and the carerra models note all the above are based on model year not date of manufacture stand corrected this is all from memory mind you as for the rev happy behavior the earlier cars are even more prone to this the liter cars used low compression engines and suffered bit in this regard the early liter and liter engines also got good dose of smog gear as well the and liter engines were far and away the quickest revvers of the lot yeah that what was trying to say no really wade guthrie trying to program on ms dos is like trying wade nb rockwell com to shave with chain saw me be not speaking for the rock xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech alt autos antique rec autos antique newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech alt autos antique rec autos antique path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu convex tobias from tobias convex com allen tobias subject re warning please read message id apr15 convex com sender usenet convex com news access account nntp posting host hydra convex com organization convex computer corporation richardson tx usa references apr14 rd hydro on ca apr15 virginia edu date thu apr gmt disclaimer this message was written by user at convex computer corp the opinions expressed are those of the user and not necessarily those of convex lines in article apr15 virginia edu ejv2j virginia edu erik velapoldi writes this happened about year ago on the washington dc beltway snot nosed drunken kids decided it would be really cool to throw huge rocks down on cars from an overpass four or five cars were hit there were several serious injuries and sadly small girl sitting in the front seat of one of them was struck in the head by one of the larger rocks don recall if she made it but think she was comatose for month or so and doctors weren holding out hope that she live what the hell is happening to this great country of ours can see boyhood pranks of peeing off of bridges and such but pound rocks has our society really stooped this low erik velapold society as we have known it it coming apart at the seams the basic reason is that human life has been devalued to the point were killing someone is no big deal kid see hundreds on murderous acts on tv we can abort children on demand and kill the sick and old at will so why be surprised when some kids drop lbs rocks and kill people they don care because the message they hear is life is cheap at newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu swrinde elroy jpl nasa gov ncar uchinews raistlin uc msc edu apctrc wsc hgo7 zdem0a from zdem0a hgo7 hou amoco com donna martz subject re braindead drivers who don look ahead message id zdem0a hgo7 keywords bad drivers sender news amoco com organization amoco references apr6 cbnewsd cb att com zdem0a hgo7 zdem0a hgo7 apr15 cbnewsd cb att com distribution usa date thu apr gmt lines hhm cbnewsd cb att com herschel mayo writes so block the would be passers not only for my own good but theirs as well even though they are often too stupid to realize it as rule of philosophy don feel particularly sorry when somebody gets offed by his own stupidity but it does worry me when some idiot is in position to cash in my chips too mayo zdem0a hgo7 hou amoco com donna martz writes well aren we just mr altruism himself just what the world needs another frustrated self appointed traffic cop hhm cbnewsd cb att com herschel mayo writes well if you want to stick the nose of your car up the ass of foot semi suppose it your neck however not going to let you kill me in the bargain if you get frustrated by somebody delaying your inevitable death due to less that wise driving practices then tough well never wrote that would act as you described stated that would not block would be passer would not block would be passer for their own good or for any reason other than was prevented from doing so due to the traffic circumstance fail to see how deterring passer under these circumstance would in any way decrease your chances of being involved in an accident fatal or otherwise in fact could imagine how blocking would be passer would actually increase your chances of being offed or involved in an accident especially if this passer is riding your bumper intentionally blocking person riding your bumper is certainly not wise driving practice it only causes the jam to become more congested don mess with trucks and actually watch the road ahead and the road behind if perceive that am rapidly closing on pack of vehicles try to avoid getting caught up in situation such as you decribe usually either traffic is just building and have to deal with this fact of life or wait to slow passer to complete their pass and make way for the pack to clear if someone decides then to pull up on my bumper signal my intention to move to the right and do so at the first opportunity hope they will open the jam feel this is not only courteous driving but alot safer than the actions you advocate there are actually many courteous drivers on the road who do not intentionally impede others if someone in front of me seems to be oblivious to the fact that they are blocking traffic use my blinker or flash my lights or if all else fails will briefly speed up slow down so they might get the message that am faster vehicle trying to pass feel it is never safe to ride anyone bumper if someone is intentionally blocking traffic because they feel that it is civil duty or philosophic duty or for some unfathomable reason feel they deserve at the very least derision sorry this is soooooooo long path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech concert quad wfunet wfu edu hagenjd from hagenjd wfu edu jeff hagen newsgroups rec autos subject bmw new plant in greer sc date apr gmt organization wake forest university lines message id qkahf e2 quad wfunet wfu edu nntp posting host ac wfunet wfu edu is anyone reading this message involved with the new bmw plant does bmw corporate even have net connection desperately seeking info jeff hagen hagenjd ac wfu edu newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet dove starchild ncsl nist gov keys from keys starchild ncsl nist gov lawrence keys subject re warning please read message id c5jgc4 ajj dove nist gov sender news dove nist gov organization national institute of standards technology references apr14 rd hydro on ca apr15 virginia edu qk7t5 dg armory centerline com date thu apr gmt lines in article qk7t5 dg armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes ejv2j virginia edu erik velapoldi writes what the hell is happening to this great country of ours can see boyhood pranks of peeing off of bridges and such but pound rocks has our society really stooped this low you make it sound like this behavior is new it isn lot of pedestrian bridges have fencing that curls up over the sidewalk to make this kind of think lot harder to do don understand the mentality myself but then again couldn figure out move glad they bombed em or the waco wackos either know that this isn the group for it but since you brought it up does anyone have any idea why they haven bombed the waco cult just curious newsgroup list trimmed significantly jim frost jimf centerline com larry keys csmes ncsl nist gov oo fahrvergnugen forever the fact that need to explain it to you indicates that you probably wouldn understand anyway path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu ux1 cso uiuc edu news cso uiuc edu uxa cso uiuc edu cka52397 from cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc newsgroups rec autos subject re dumbest automotive concepts of all time message id c5jnk3 jkt news cso uiuc edu date apr gmt article news c5jnk3 jkt references mar29 uncavx unca edu qa1 wichitaks ncr com apr15 acs ucalgary ca sender usenet news cso uiuc edu net noise owner organization university of illinois at urbana lines parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr writes in article qa1 wichitaks ncr com jhart qa1 wichitaks ncr com jim hart writes in article mar29 uncavx unca edu bwillard uncavx unca edu writes my top list of dumbest automotive concepts ever dodge colt vista tachometer only avail with automatic trans back up lights on corvette they re on the sides of the car sure would be interested to know what year this was don seem to recall any car with back up lights on the sides much less any corvette suppose could be mis interpreting what you are trying to say here just quick comment backup lights mounted on the side would actually be extremely useful for people backing out of parking stalls regards charles within the span of the last few weeks have heard elements of separate threads which in that they have been conjoined in time struck together to form new chord within my hollow and echoing gourd unknown net person wasn the original intent of the reverse lights for the driver so he could see where he was backing up although reverse lights on the sides are useful for telling whether cars are backing up out perpendicular to the path of the car don think warnings were their original intents since they are colored white chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu neil peart quick to judge quick to anger slow to understand ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech asuvax ennews mcdphx schbbs mothost pts1 mug11 nuet ke from nuet ke pts mot com keith nuetzman x3153 p7625 subject re lois chevrolet message id apr17 pts mot com summary louis chevrolet sender usenet pts mot com nntp posting host reply to nuet ke pts mot com organization paging and wireless data group references apr17 schbbs mot com date sat apr gmt lines little bit off of the subject but here goes yes he is one in the same chevrolet motor div also his brother gaston raced at indy and was the winner in have also seen the name arthur chevrolet in the early teens and on assume he is related keith nuetzman nuet ke pts mot com motorola inc paging and wireless data group boynton beach fl see ya at indy and yes xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos driving rec autos tech path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com emory swrinde zaphod mps ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu usenet ins cwru edu cleveland freenet edu bw662 from bw662 cleveland freenet edu bill cray newsgroups rec autos rec autos driving rec autos tech subject re thinking about buying intrepid good or bad idea date apr gmt organization case western reserve university cleveland ohio usa lines message id qph2d usenet ins cwru edu nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu bought an intrepid about two months ago and am very happy with it lots of room inside and even with the smaller engine it has enough power for me the only problem found was small selection on the dealer lots they are hot sellers around here xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet gatech usenet ufl edu mlb semi harris com rtfm mlb fl us gwalker from gwalker rtfm mlb fl us grayson walker subject re changing oil by self message id apr17 rtfm mlb fl us keywords oily to bed sender grayson walker organization merritt island florida references apr15 rtfm mlb fl us apr16 sern apr16 magnus acs ohio state edu distribution usa date sat apr gmt lines ah yes the big chunks down in the sump the solution is simple sort of like the advice my aunt always gave never scratch your ear with anything except your elbow if you have pieces of ring con rods valve heads or stems just reach into the sump through the hole in the block that was associated with the creation of those large bits and pieces anything you can remove with one hand through the hole in the block may safely be left in place xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com emory swrinde zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu cs utexas edu not for mail from tquinn heartland bradley edu terry quinn newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech subject waxing new car date apr organization utexas mail to news gateway lines sender daemon cs utexas edu message id aa19967 heartland bradley edu reply to tquinn heartland bradley edu nntp posting host cs utexas edu have just taken delivery on new gm car firebird with clearcoat finish assume that it is probably urethane since the industry has moved in that direction in paints in years past it used to be recommended that owners wait up to days before you wax car for the paint to cure the dealer shop manager said this also but not sure that he wasn just basing it on past tradition does anyone know if this is still recommended practice or is it better to go ahead and wax right away non abrasive new car wax with the newer finishes terry quinn germantown hills il tquinn heartland bradley edu from compuserve internet tquinn heartland bradley edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu rpi think com enterpoop mit edu senator bedfellow mit edu athena mit edu hkon from hkon athena mit edu henry kon newsgroups rec autos subject tercel sunroof leaks arrggh date apr gmt organization massachusetts institute of technology lines distribution world message id qplp1innn1u senator bedfellow mit edu nntp posting host e40 mit edu is there simple way tooput these sunroofs out of their misery do leaks tend to be from old gaskets or from inadequate mechanical seals or all of the above is there any way to halt the rain thanks hk henry bruno kon office with machine home with machine newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech swrinde zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu caen uvaarpa murdoch faraday clas virginia edu rmt6r from rmt6r faraday clas virginia edu roy matthew thigpen subject re plymouth sundance dodge shadow experiences message id c5n69o e4d murdoch acc virginia edu sender usenet murdoch acc virginia edu organization university of virginia references qmq7tinn9l tamsun tamu edu distribution usa date sat apr gmt lines don know if some lemons are out there but from personal experience my brother has been trouble free not one single repair only regular maintainance the only work he had done on it was result of his stupidity he stopped suddenly in the middle of left turn on busy intersection and was rear ended he has plymouth sundance would recomend it but would also like to say that if you can wait about six months chryco is coming out with new car called the neon that is built in the same way as the lh where good luck with your desiscion newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net news centerline com uunet mnemosyne cs du edu nyx sborders from sborders nyx cs du edu scott borders subject clear coat woes message id apr17 mnemosyne cs du edu summary any way to remove fine scratches in clear coat keywords clear coat paint sender usenet mnemosyne cs du edu netnews admin account organization university of denver dept of math comp sci date sat apr gmt lines is clear coat really worth it yes on the showroom floor the cars have this deep lustrous shine that just can be found on paint jobs that aren clear coated on the other hand it seems that every clear coated car that ve seen on the road in parking lot etc has fine scratches throughout the paint job as does alas my laser several weeks ago had my car professionally polished and waxed when picked it up it had that same showroom shine that remember from year ago when bought it several days ago took my car to the dealership for some work as an added bonus they washed my car unfortunately whoever washed it either didn get the roof which is black the rest of the car is red completely clean before he dried it or he used dirty towel now my showroom shine is haze of fine scratches that aren really visible until the light hits the roof at particular angle am to put it mildy somewhat peeved about this do have any chance of getting the dealership to do something about this my guess is no is there any product on the market that provides solution to this problem or am faced with the prospect of having the car professionally polished again to hide the scratches information commiseration and sympathy all greatly appreciated scott the dealership will never wash my car again borders sborders nyx cs du edu borders scott tandem com newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech asuvax ennews mcdphx schbbs mothost white sapphire rtsg mot com opal12 nataraja from nataraja rtsg mot com kumaravel natarajan subject re chryslers compact lh sedans message id nataraja opal12 sender news rtsg mot com nntp posting host opal12 organization motorola inc cellular infrastructure group references qavet e0 usenet ins cwru edu c5e4fn c0f murdoch acc virginia edu distribution usa date tue apr gmt lines rmt6r faraday clas virginia edu roy matthew thigpen writes aas7 po cwru edu writes in previous article v064mcqs ubvmsd cc buffalo edu adam gandler says heard chrysler is planning to design or is in the process of designing compact sedan line based on the lh platform if these were as thought out as the full sized sedans and priced competitively see no reason why they could not give the imports and even the saturns serious challenge oh goody we now get to see saturns sold through cryco dealers fab why is it this hole insist on remarks like this really am growing tired of this drew do you have kill file for your newsreader put the name spencer in my kill file and that gives me about less articles per day that have to sift through path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com emory sol ctr columbia edu zaphod mps ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu usenet ins cwru edu agate msuinfo netnews upenn edu netnews cc lehigh edu ns1 cc lehigh edu ip02 from ip02 ns1 cc lehigh edu danny phornprapha newsgroups rec autos subject getting car need opinions message id apr17 ns1 cc lehigh edu date apr gmt organization lehigh university lines have as my budget looking for sports or gt car what do you think would be the best buy looking for specific models thanks danny hey you programmers out there danny phornprapha please consider this ip02 lehigh edu bugs are another endangered earth lucc student konsultant species needing your protection work xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech emory swrinde zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu cs utexas edu uunet nwnexus jong from jong halcyon com barking weasel subject re rfi art of clutchless shifting message id apr17 nwnexus wa com sender edm nwnexus wa com ed morin organization northwest nexus inc references apr16 sscvx1 ssc gov date sat apr gmt lines schludermann sscvx1 ssc gov writes wondering if anybody else out there is clutchless shifter ve been doing it my self over miles on my current toyota truck ve got over ve heard people talk about how doing this can damage transmission my experiences suggest otherwise what techniques do you use yeah don use the clutch all the time either ve done it with fords bmw datsun and chevy and it works fine can think of any reason that it would damage the tranny essentially you are just doing what the synchros do anyhow match the engine speed with the tranny speed and slip it into gear on some old pieces of junk drove the transmission was so worn that pumping the clutch was the only way to shift except clutchless to date ve driven rabbits datsuns comets fords chevy some where harder than others to shift but generally the higher the milage the smoother quicker easier they where to shift my technique is to ease back off the throttle and at the same time gently wrist back on the shift lever if for some reason miss the shift window lightly press the accelerator try agian ve found that clutchless shifting is eaiser quicker at high rpms also skip gears some times using sounds about right usually slip it out during throttle down and then blip the throttle and wait until it feels like things are right usually about second and then slip it into gear krispy jon you obviously don know who you re dealing with gross jong halcyon com from roger hpscit sc hp com roger mullane date fri apr gmt subject re acura integra speed message id hpscit sc hp com organization hewlett packard santa clara ca path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com col hp com news dtc hp com hpscit sc hp com hplextra hpcc05 hpscit roger newsgroups rec autos references netnews upenn edu lines have acura integra speed with miles on it it is positively the worst car have ever owned had an prelude that had miles on it when sold it and it was still going strong this is with religious attention to maintenance such as oil changes etc both cars were driven in exactly the same manner it has gone through two clutches which are underrated sets of tires really eats tires in the front even with careful align all struts started leaking about miles windshield wiper motor burned up service note on this one seek stop working on radio about miles two timing belts constant error signals from computer and finally rod bearing went out on the no piston seriously damaging the crankshaft contaminating the engine etc when the overhaul was done last week it required new crankshaft one new cam shaft has two because the camshaft shattered when they tried to mill it the camshaft took weeks to get because it is on national back order everything on the engine is unique to the year they went to new design in parts are very expensive no way would ever buy another acura it is highly overrated path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet europa eng gtefsd com gatech usenet ins cwru edu magnus acs ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu msuinfo netnews upenn edu netnews cc lehigh edu ns1 cc lehigh edu rwf2 from rwf2 ns1 cc lehigh edu robert william fusi newsgroups rec autos subject re most bang for message id apr17 ns1 cc lehigh edu date apr gmt organization lehigh university lines in article apr17 ns1 cc lehigh edu rwf2 ns1 cc lehigh edu obert william fusi writes in article uupcb cutting hou tx us david bonds cutting hou tx us vid bonds writes in rec autos cpkjp vm cc latech edu kevin parker writes like to get some feedback on car with most bang for the buck in the to price range looking for car with enough civility to driven every day or even on long trips but when hit the gas want to fe take look at taurus sho they can be found for and are the ultimate in door sports cars performance similar to mustang but quite civil and comfortable try to get late model for the better shifter the cutting edge bbs cutting hou tx us pcboard system houston texas usa running uupcb well you could always go with mustang lx with pleasant v8 but the diamond star cars talon eclipse laser put out hp in the turbo models and hp in the awd turbo models these cars also have handling to match the muscle and are civil in regular driving conditions rather than having harsh stiff ride the awd turbo is clearly the better choice of the two because of all that torque steer on the front drive model but you may have to go with leftover or slightly used model for that price range tough decision rob fusi rwf2 lehigh edu car and driver did test with the same basic idea and chose the ford probe gt sp of course path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet europa eng gtefsd com gatech usenet ins cwru edu agate msuinfo netnews upenn edu netnews cc lehigh edu ns1 cc lehigh edu rwf2 from rwf2 ns1 cc lehigh edu robert william fusi newsgroups rec autos subject re too fast message id apr17 ns1 cc lehigh edu date apr gmt organization lehigh university lines in article shaman wv tek com andrew frip wv tek com andrew klossner wr ites can ask have any of you been at the speed of it rush so is cocaine what your point andrew klossner andrew frip wv tek com yeah and the cop couldn catch me path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet europa eng gtefsd com gatech usenet ins cwru edu agate msuinfo netnews upenn edu netnews cc lehigh edu ns1 cc lehigh edu rwf2 from rwf2 ns1 cc lehigh edu robert william fusi newsgroups rec autos subject re too fast message id apr17 ns1 cc lehigh edu date apr gmt organization lehigh university lines in article shaman wv tek com andrew frip wv tek com andrew klossner wr ites can ask have any of you been at the speed of it rush so is cocaine what your point andrew klossner andrew frip wv tek com don know about the cocaine but path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet europa eng gtefsd com gatech usenet ins cwru edu agate msuinfo netnews upenn edu netnews cc lehigh edu ns1 cc lehigh edu rwf2 from rwf2 ns1 cc lehigh edu robert william fusi newsgroups rec autos subject re new alarm proposal message id apr17 ns1 cc lehigh edu date apr gmt organization lehigh university lines in article apr14 slcs slb com dcd se houston geoquest slb co dan day writes in article qeee6 o7s armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost rites an audible alarm is just an annoyance to either professional or amateur nobody listens to audible alarms anymore the thieves know this is why think there ought to be heavy fine on false alarms really honked off about the fact that due to all the cars with cruddy alarms crying wolf no one will pay any attention to my car if its alarm ever goes off for real depends on your area in the city nobody thinks about it but at mall or something near the suburbs people do at least glance over remember an alarm is only deterent not prevention if thief sees two cars he likes one has an alarm and the other doesn he obviously going to skip the alarmed car and avoid the hassle there is way around every alarm but at least you ve got something on your side rob fusi rwf2 lehigh edu newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu rphroy caen uvaarpa murdoch faraday clas virginia edu rmt6r from rmt6r faraday clas virginia edu roy matthew thigpen subject re getting car need opinions message id c5nexo fuo murdoch acc virginia edu sender usenet murdoch acc virginia edu organization university of virginia references apr17 ns1 cc lehigh edu date sat apr gmt lines good luck xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu misc kids rec arts comics misc rec arts tv soaps rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet gatech news byu edu yvax byu edu cunyvm psuvm mao111 newsgroups misc kids rec arts comics misc rec arts tv soaps rec autos subject curious about you message id mao111 psuvm psu edu from maria alice ruth mao111 psuvm psu edu date sat apr edt organization penn state university lines please satisfy my curiosity interested in finding out who is using the mail system please do not flood me with mail after april st thanks maria alice ruth mao111 psuvm bitnet or psuvm psu edu are you male or female how long have you been using the mail system how do you have access at work at school etc who taught you how to use the system is that person male or female have you helped anyone to learn the system was that person male or female which net did you find my questions on which other nets are you interested in how often do you read post to the system path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu ames olivea uunet world edwards from edwards world std com jonathan edwards newsgroups rec autos subject toyota land cruiser worth it message id c5nn0c fb3 world std com date apr gmt organization intranet inc lines in response to post about suv got several unsolicited recommendations to check out the land cruiser despite its astronomical price the toyota dealer told me it cult car if car is good enough to create passionate and loyal following there must be something really extraordinary about it so all you land crusher cultists here is your chance to convert me jonathan edwards edwards intranet com intranet inc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu cleveland freenet edu cf947 from cf947 cleveland freenet edu chun hung wan newsgroups rec autos subject nx2000 vs sentra se date apr gmt organization case western reserve university cleveland oh usa lines message id qq9jf fdu usenet ins cwru edu reply to cf947 cleveland freenet edu chun hung wan nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu plannig to trade my sentra se in with nx2000 my car has miles on it and is model the nx2000 the dealer is selling is model with miles on it it has bar roof and an airbag which my sentra does not have they are asking for is that fair deal the only thing noticed about the nx2000 is that the engine did not seem to have as much torque as my sentra which has the same identical engine presume that the last lady owner did not really push the engine to it limits occassionaly while did that on mine thuis the nx2000 engine is little tight so if buy the nx2000 and excercise it well should that slight power problem go away any advice on this will be much appreciated thanks please reply via mail if possible motion picture major at the brooks institute of photography ca santa barbara and foreign student from kuala lumpur malaysia the mind is the forerunner of all states xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech alt parents teens path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net spool mu edu darwin sura net jhunix hcf jhu edu fmsrl7 destroyer cs ubc ca unixg ubc ca erich triumf ca music from music erich triumf ca fred bach newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech alt parents teens subject re warning please read date apr pst organization triumf tri university meson facility lines distribution world message id apr199309344683 erich triumf ca references apr14 rd hydro on ca apr15 virginia edu apr15 convex com nntp posting host erich triumf ca news software vax vms vnews in article apr15 convex com tobias convex com allen tobias writes in article apr15 virginia edu ejv2j virginia edu erik velapoldi writes this happened about year ago on the washington dc beltway snot nosed drunken kids decided it would be really cool to throw huge rocks down on cars from an overpass four or five cars were hit there were several serious injuries and sadly small girl sitting in the front seat of one of them was struck in the head by one of the larger rocks don recall if she made it but think she was comatose for month or so and doctors weren holding out hope that she live what the hell is happening to this great country of ours can see boyhood pranks of peeing off of bridges and such but pound rocks has our society really stooped this low yes nobody is watching them if they get caught there is no punishment at all in the old days such behaviour would be rewarded with whipping with good sized belt and then taken into some hospital to see first hand what kind of damage such accidents cause of course this doesn happen any more that whipping would probably save the kid life by teaching him some respect for others person with that little respect would inevitably wind up dead early anyway the problem is creeping gradualism if you put frog into hot water he just jumps out but if you put him into cold water and then ever so gradually heat it the frog will cook this is what the entertainment industry and lack of religious moral and educational standards in our modern north american society have done to us over the years now that we are about to be cooked we may have woken up too late erik velapold society as we have known it it coming apart at the seams the basic reason is that human life has been devalued to the point were killing someone is no big deal kid see hundreds on murderous acts on tv we can abort children on demand and kill the sick and old at will so why be surprised when some kids drop lbs rocks and kill people they don care because the message they hear is life is cheap and the education system and the religious leaders aren doing much about it either with both parents working in this society where is the stabilizing influence at home latchkey children are everywhere and these latchkey kids can watch whatever rotten videos and listen to whatever violent hate promoting music and videos they like because no one is home to stop it this day and age when there is about times more things to learn than when went to school our answer to this increased knowledge is shorter school hours and more leisure time say keep the kids in school longer feed them good food and teach them something and when they get home have parent there to interact and monitor them there is very old and now forgotten proverb child left on his own will bring parent to grief daycare systems are not the answer this is just shifting the parents own responsibilities off on someone else to whom it not life long committment but rather just job at followups should go to alt parents teens fred bach operations group internet music erich triumf ca triumf tri university meson facility voice loc wesbrook mall ubc campus fax university of british columbia vancouver canada v6t a3 these are my opinions which should only make you read think and question they do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer or fellow workers xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech alt parents teens path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net wupost gumby destroyer cs ubc ca unixg ubc ca erich triumf ca music from music erich triumf ca fred bach newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech alt parents teens subject re warning please read date apr pst organization triumf tri university meson facility lines distribution world message id apr199309430165 erich triumf ca references apr14 rd hydro on ca neilson apr15135919 seoul mpr ca nntp posting host erich triumf ca news software vax vms vnews in article neilson apr15135919 seoul mpr ca neilson seoul mpr ca robert neilson writes sorry for the auto content but that is why low abiding citizens should have the power to protect themselves and their property using deadly force if necessary anywhere threat is imminent steve heracleous you do have the power steve you can do it why don you why don you go shoot some kids who are tossing rocks onto cars make sure you do good job though don miss cause like they have big rocks and take it from me those kids are mean this last comment was obviously bit cynical but true statement of the attitude of some drivers there your autos content would say what law abiding not low abiding as above talk about freudian slips citizens have the right and responsibility to do is try to prevent this type of behaviour in children doctor may have to use deadly force against part of body like amputating it when an infection disease has gone too far but his real desire would have been to prevent the disease in the first place or at least nip it in the bud followups should go to alt parents teens fred bach operations group internet music erich triumf ca triumf tri university meson facility voice loc wesbrook mall ubc campus fax university of british columbia vancouver canada v6t a3 these are my opinions which should only make you read think and question they do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer or fellow workers xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech alt parents teens path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net spool mu edu nigel msen com fmsrl7 destroyer cs ubc ca unixg ubc ca erich triumf ca music from music erich triumf ca fred bach newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech alt parents teens subject re warning please read date apr pst organization triumf tri university meson facility lines distribution world message id apr199309481599 erich triumf ca references qh336innfl5 cs utk edu c5joit e31 bcstec ca boeing com nntp posting host erich triumf ca keywords brick truck danger news software vax vms vnews in article c5joit e31 bcstec ca boeing com neil bcstec ca boeing com neil williams writes as long as we re on the subject several years ago myself and two others were riding in the front of toyota pickup heading south on interstate north of seattle wa someone threw rock of an overpass and hit our windshield not by accident sure it was impossible to get up to the overpass quickly to see who did it we figured it was kids reported it and left couple of years ago it happend again and killed guy at my company he was in his mid fourties and left behind wife and children turned out there was reformatory for juviniles few blocks away they caught the year old that did it they put cover over the overpass what else could they do don think ll over forget this story neil williams boeing computer services bellevue wa neil what did they do to the year old who they caught what did the man insurance company do this could be significant and in any case very interesting followups to alt parents teens fred bach operations group internet music erich triumf ca triumf tri university meson facility voice loc wesbrook mall ubc campus fax university of british columbia vancouver canada v6t a3 these are my opinions which should only make you read think and question they do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer or fellow workers path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net agate ames saimiri primate wisc edu usenet coe montana edu news uoregon edu netnews nwnet net news washington edu lanmola eliot from eliot lanmola engr washington edu eliot newsgroups rec autos subject re manual shift bigots date apr gmt organization clearer than blir lines message id apr18 engr washington edu references c5liw2 cax news rich bnr ca apr17 engr washington edu c5o4nh su news cso uiuc edu nntp posting host lanmola engr washington edu in article c5o4nh su news cso uiuc edu mchaffee dcl nxt07 michael chaffee writes performance converter lockup is purely irrelevant the lockup only occurs at light throttle settings and serves only to improve mpg mind you converter clutch does lovely job of improving mpg but the additional mechanical advantage of the converter gives you more acceleration vs locked converter clutch than its inherent losses take away the transmission in my car contradicts both your assertions get much stronger acceleration if let the convertor lockup which can induce by briefly lifting off then quickly but not too quickly to trigger kickdown applying throttle above rpms the convertor will never unlock it would kickdown first who says there no skill involved in driving an automatic think of it as the throttle and shifter combined into single pedal with my car can pretty much influence its shifting patterns with my right foot while having both hands to steer eliot newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net spool mu edu uwm edu cs utexas edu uunet spsgate mogate newsgate latium markm from markm latium mark monninger subject bimmer vs beamer message id apr18 newsgate sps mot com sender usenet newsgate sps mot com nntp posting host reply to markm latium mark monninger organization motorola sps tempe az references c5ny5y dx news cso uiuc edu distribution usa date sun apr gmt lines although not in direct response to the referenced article just to set the record straight beamers are bmw motorcycles bmw cars are bimmers please let get our terms straight actually some purists would argue that the only true bimmer is round tail light or mark xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech alt parents teens path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net bigboote wpi edu wpi wpi edu kastle from kastle wpi wpi edu jacques brouillette newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech alt parents teens subject re warning please read date apr gmt organization worcester polytechnic institute lines distribution world message id qs4a9 f87 bigboote wpi edu references qh336innfl5 cs utk edu c5joit e31 bcstec ca boeing com apr199309481599 erich triumf ca nntp posting host wpi wpi edu keywords brick truck danger could we plase cease this discussion fail to see why people feel the need to expound upon this issue for days and days on end these areas are not meant for this type of discussion if you feel the need to do such things please take your thought elsewhere thanks want only two things from this world plymouth and small opec nation with which to fuel it this would be good and just thing car smashers can just go home and sulk jacques brouillette manufacturing engineering path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech europa eng gtefsd com emory news feed peachnet edu darwin sura net aurora latech edu vm cc latech edu cpkjp from cpkjp vm cc latech edu kevin parker newsgroups rec autos subject insurance rates on performance cars summary date sun apr cst organization louisiana tech university lines message id bb4ba7e cpkjp vm cc latech edu nntp posting host vm cc latech edu newsreader nnr vm recently posted an article asking what kind of rates single male drivers under yrs old were paying on performance cars here summary of the replies received not under anymore but is close enough dodge stealth rt twin turbo hp model no tickets no accidents own house have taken defensive driving airbag abs security alarm single year decut state farm insurance this includes the additional for the umbrella policy over my car and house the base policy is the standard policy required in de after nd defensive driving course it will be less bought the car in september the company was with never had and accident or ticket in years quoted me hope this helps steve flynn university of delaware kevin hope remembered your name correctly you asked about insurance for performance cars well last year was in similar situation before bought my car and made the same inquiry as you age then and now car eagle talon tsi awd driving record clean state illinois cost mos turn in may and the insurance goes down to mos also single and that incurs higher rate with my company ve got couple other friends awds and they pay more than do different ins companies also so maybe just lucky hope the info helps dan dans jdc gss mot com motorola cellular subscriber group usa cc live in norman oklahoma drive an thunderbird sc have never made claim against my insurance though have been hit several times by negligent drivers who couldn see stop signs or were fiddling with their radios and have had three moving violations in the last months one for going in one for failure to clear an intersection still say the damn light was yellow and one for going in which didn go on my record my rates from state farm with passive restraint deduction on liability deductible comprehensive and deductible collision are roughly year was paying just over year for escort lx james james callison microcomputer coordinator of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer not an engineer but play one at work the forecast calls for thunder bird sc it hell of thing killing man you take away all he has and all he ever gonna have will munny unforgiven am beyond the under age group but have an experience few years ago that might be interesting to you owned toyota celica gt decided to buy myself gift more exotic car front runners included the toyota supra turbo and the porsche model years narrowed it down to those two liked the simplicity and handling and snob appeal too of driving porsche the supra turbo was less money and had more features and performance almost personal luxury car it had better acceleration and higher top speed than the was almost ready to give in to buying impulse for the but decided to stop by my insurance agent office on the way asked about what would happen to my rate with either car if you buy the supra your rate classification will be the same as the celica the celica was considered subcompact and for that year was rated as one of the safest cars with slight increase because the car will be years newer our lower risk division will continue to handle your account if you buy the porsche we ll have to change you to the standard higher rate company and your rate will double and if you go with it another story again we ll cover the rest of this year but cancel you after that but the supra is much faster than the and the is actually faster than the standard that doens make sense that what the book says we don insure corvettes either for some reason the underwriters consider supras and their drivers as very traditional and conservative eventually went with the supra for number of reasons the porsche dealer had nice salesman to get me interested but tough high pressure guy in the back room at equal monthly payments it would have taken year longer to pay for the porsche plus its higher insurance concluded that the high insurance was related to probability of auto theft everyone entitled to my opinion goldberg oasys dt navy mil imagination is more important than knowledge albert einstein live in idaho when was many years ago years bought trans am new insurance was about year when turned it immediately dropped to year had not had any accidents before or after this was strictly an age change that same rate stayed pretty much the same until sold the car years ago my pickup is about year less the real amazing thing is that when woke up at age felt so much more responsible than was before wes for your information california male single under no moving violation alfa spider year what bargain let see single male clean driving record have vw corrado vr6 live in san jose california pay year through allstate good deal if you ask me was thinking about getting talon but think the insurance is higher for turbo sports car vs v6 honda crx si clean record in small new mexico town was around per year age nearby city rates were higher than where ve got mine insured robert robert stack institute of transportation studies univ of california irvine stack translab its uci edu mazda protege lx per year saturn sc years old state new mexico insurance state farm here is my info car toyota celica st insurance co farmer insurance yearly insurance age date of license oct residence mountain view california no moving violations for now atleast hope this helps please post summary if possible vijay vijay anisetti email anisetti informix com apt off single years old eagle talon turbo awd full cover reasonable liability no tickets no violations no accidents knock on wood mass one thing that makes huge difference in mass is the town you live in personally in one of the best towns within reasonable distance of boston if moved to the absolute best it would go down to about if moved to the worst it would be also one accident and couple of tickets would probably add another rv have mitsubishi eclipse turbo awd am years old and have no tickets that went on my record live in illinois just outside of chicago and pay year with full coverage at state farm did get small discount because of my alarm system year only live miles from chicago but if actually lived in the city the price would be about year over but in case you re interested anyway insuring sho for month thats personal total property with deductible glass and towing state farm unless you are under or have been driving for less than years think you are being seriously ripped off don have one of the performance cars you listed but if your record is clean then you should not be paying over did you try calling all the insurance dealers you could find although rates are supposed to be standardized ve found that most places initially call give me some ridiculously high quote and finaly hit one that is much lower also have changed insurance companies when the rate went up at renewal no accidents tickets car gets older to maintain low rate you always have to be careful when it comes to insurance companies good luck serge xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net agate dog ee lbl gov network ucsd edu rutgers news cs indiana edu nstn ns ca cs dal ca jsmith from jsmith cs dal ca jeff smith newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech subject header for honda civic si message id c5oyzo i9c cs dal ca date apr gmt sender usenet cs dal ca usenet news organization math stats cs dalhousie university halifax ns canada lines nntp posting host cs dal ca hello am looking to slightly increase the performance of my honda civic si was wondering if anyone could suggest upgrades that were not too drastic thought that one of the easiest upgrades would be new header does anyone know what kind of increase that the header would give me think would check with jackson racing for the part are there any other comparines would make honda parts are there any other small changes that can be easily made and won screw up the car things like new injectors new fuel injection chip etc would welcome any suggestions of small changes that would make difference don really want to change the cam etc because have heard that it would be much harder on the engine mail relpies prefered please and will post summary of all the replies thanks for any help you may have to offer jeff smith jsmith cs dal ca dalhousie university halifax ns newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech concert uvaarpa murdoch faraday clas virginia edu rmt6r from rmt6r faraday clas virginia edu roy matthew thigpen subject re impala ss going into production message id c5ozcy dr1 murdoch acc virginia edu sender usenet murdoch acc virginia edu organization university of virginia references qqclrinnftl uwm edu distribution na date sun apr gmt lines qazi csd4 csd uwm edu writes from the latest issue of autoweek the chevy impala ss will arrive in dealer showrooms in mid dealers have already been notified no word on the changes to be made for the production version my question to all of you is would you buy it and how much would you pay for it aamir qazi qazi csd4 csd uwm edu why should care rather watch drying paint aamir qazi qazi csd4 csd uwm edu why should care rather watch drying paint alright gm finally my wishes have come true moby dick with corvette engine don you think they should maybe spend the money doing something about the lousy build quality design of their bigger selling cars this is another example of why gm is in so much trouble if you re going to stick the lt or zr engine in car at least make it nice looking one sheesh newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech concert uvaarpa murdoch faraday clas virginia edu rmt6r from rmt6r faraday clas virginia edu roy matthew thigpen subject re chrysler new yorker lhs was re chryslers compact lh sedans message id c5ozka dsk murdoch acc virginia edu sender usenet murdoch acc virginia edu organization university of virginia references qhvgs quad wfunet wfu edu date sun apr gmt lines warren brown the washington post auto writer was the first journalist to get his hands on the new yorker if you like his impressions of it his review appeared in friday paper in the weekend section he is not your traditional auto writer enjoy newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net spool mu edu uunet newsgate watson ibm com yktnews watson ibm com murthy from murthy watson ibm com sesh murthy subject re bimmer vs beamer sender news watson ibm com nntp news poster message id apr18 watson ibm com date sun apr gmt distribution usa disclaimer this posting represents the poster views not necessarily those of ibm references c5ny5y dx news cso uiuc edu apr18 newsgate sps mot com nntp posting host panini watson ibm com organization ibm watson research center lines in article apr18 newsgate sps mot com markm latium mark monninger writes although not in direct response to the referenced article just to set the record straight beamers are bmw motorcycles bmw cars are bimmers please huh though beamers were ibm employees let get our terms straight actually some purists would argue that the only true bimmer is round tail light or mark xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos sport newsgroups rec autos rec autos sport path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net agate ames kronos arc nasa gov hotspare arc nasa gov user from brian gothamcity jsc nasa gov brian donnell subject for sale celica repair manuals message id brian hotspare arc nasa gov followup to misc forsale sender usenet kronos arc nasa gov will edgington wedgingt ptolemy arc nasa gov nntp posting host hotspare arc nasa gov organization nasa arc information sciences division date sun apr gmt lines two volume soft cover repair manuals for all models of toyota celicas probably good for models as well like new condition these are the manuals used by the toyota dealers mechanics they normally cost over new obo brian donnell brian gothamcity jsc nasa gov newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech udel news intercon com psinntp isc newsserver ritvax isc rit edu adn6285 from adn6285 ritvax isc rit edu subject mr2 parts message id apr18 ultb isc rit edu sender news ultb isc rit edu usenet news system nntp posting host vaxa isc rit edu reply to adn6285 ritvax isc rit edu organization rochester institute of technology date sun apr gmt lines does anyone know of dead first generation mr2 need body parts steering rack and few minor pieces was about to buy parts car but the owner backed out after month of pulling my leg arrrrgh mike path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu gatech concert quad wfunet wfu edu hagenjd from hagenjd wfu edu jeff hagen newsgroups rec autos subject improvements in automatic transmissions date apr gmt organization wake forest university lines message id qsljc dd quad wfunet wfu edu nntp posting host ac wfunet wfu edu summary query keywords saturn subaru manual automatic the biggest hurdle for automatics imho is not shifting speed per se but rather the transmission reaction speed when you try to force it to shift manually this was the biggest fault with the subaru ecvt it took soooooo lonnnnnnnnggggg for the tranny to find the right ratio the sales propaganda says the saturn automatic is effectively an electronically shifted manual might this mean that saturn has conquered the problem dunno only driven saturn speeds input please another question any plans for manual trans chrysler lh does anyone else out there fall asleep at night dreaming of this combo newsgroups rec autos rec autos tec path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu linac uwm edu spool mu edu eng ufl edu usenet cis ufl edu caen uvaarpa murdoch fermi clas virginia edu mad9a from mad9a fermi clas virginia edu michael davis subject slick any good message id c5pahe g9q murdoch acc virginia edu sender mad9a fermi clas virginia edu organization university of virginia date sun apr gmt lines chances are that this has been discussed to death already and if so could someone who has kept the discussion mail me or direct me to an archive site basically am just wondering if slick really does all it says that it does and also is there any data to support the claim thanks for any info mike davis mad9a fermi clas virginia edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech concert quad wfunet wfu edu hagenjd from hagenjd wfu edu jeff hagen newsgroups rec autos subject re lois chevrolet date apr gmt organization wake forest university lines message id qso4g ff quad wfunet wfu edu references apr17 schbbs mot com apr17 pts mot com nntp posting host ac wfunet wfu edu the chevrolet brothers were respected racers test drivers for the buick co when durant was there when the directors kicked durant out of gm in he took chevrolet and others with him as mentioned before they founded the successful chevrolet company little known fact is that the chevrolet co actually took over gm that was how durant got back in charge of gm legally his new company chevrolet co did the buying and gm was division of chevrolet after and into the sloan era gm shuffled things so that the gm board was superior but there was always degree of autonomy given the chevy division presumably because of the initial structure if you look at the organization chart for gm in sloan book chevy division reports directly to th floor not through the passenger car division which covers buick olds cadillac and oakland pontiac jeff hagen minor deity of worthless auto trivia hagenjd ac wfu edu newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet world grady from grady world std com dick grady subject re dumbest automotive concepts of all time message id c5pjn2 fk5 world std com organization the world public access unix brookline ma references tommy hoodlum w2z2b1w164w cellar org date mon apr gmt lines in article w2z2b1w164w cellar org blu cellar org dan reed writes fact is just leave the valet key in my glovebox for whenever need it that will make it easy for car thief saves him her the trouble of popping your ignition dick grady salem nh usa grady world std com so many newsgroups so little time newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet world grady from grady world std com dick grady subject re dumbest automotive concepts of all time message id c5pk0j gh0 world std com organization the world public access unix brookline ma references tommy hoodlum c5hqj0 unix amherst edu date mon apr gmt lines in article c5hqj0 unix amherst edu bhtulin unix amherst edu barak tulin writes just started reading this thread today so forgive me if it has already been mentioned but what was the deal with renault putting the horn on the left hand turn signal stalk it was button on the end where the washer button would be on the wiper washer stalk could the frenchies not figure out the wiring through the steering wheel or what ford tried that also back in my ranger pickup had the horn at the end of the turn signal stalk instead of in the center of the wheel where god intended it to be drove two different cars then the other an camry and never did get used to pushing the turn signal stalk to blow the horn the only time got it right was when was getting the annual state required safety inspection not one of ford better ideas dick grady salem nh usa grady world std com so many newsgroups so little time newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech swrinde network ucsd edu pacbell com att out cbnewsj hoodlum tommy from tommy boole att com tommy reingold subject re where can get new york taxi reply to tommy boole att com organization at bell labs holmdel nj usa distribution na date mon apr gmt message id tommy hoodlum originator tommy hoodlum references ncrcan canada ncr ca unisql uucp sender news cbnewsj cb att com netnews administrator nntp posting host hoodlum l1135 att com lines wrat unisql uucp wharfie writes actually you want checker special if you can find one good luck sorry let mine go grew up in new york city so rode in many checker cabs the jump seats were fun as kid although the cars were roomy good trait for taxi they had design flaw that don understand they never fixed the rear passengers tended to fall out of their seats when the driver braked wouldn want to take long ride in the back seat of one of these vehicles why did you like yours never drove one so have to ask tommy reingold at bell labs holmdel nj tommy boole att com or att boole tommy xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos vw newsgroups rec autos rec autos vw path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net spool mu edu uunet world grady from grady world std com dick grady subject re seating ergonomics headroom message id c5pm74 world std com organization the world public access unix brookline ma references amiller almaden ibm com date mon apr gmt lines in article amiller almaden ibm com amiller almaden ibm com alex miller writes my physical therapist has suggested that good driving position for me is to have my back nearly vertical and for my knees not to be much higher than my hips are there any cars that are particularly good in respect to having both headroom and well designed seat height take look at mini vans sat in dodge caravan which had high seat and plenty of headroom dick grady salem nh usa grady world std com so many newsgroups so little time newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net spool mu edu uwm edu linac att att out cbnewsj hoodlum tommy from tommy boole att com tommy reingold subject re improvements in automatic transmissions reply to tommy boole att com organization at bell labs holmdel nj usa date mon apr gmt message id tommy hoodlum originator tommy hoodlum references qsljc dd quad wfunet wfu edu keywords saturn subaru manual automatic sender news cbnewsj cb att com netnews administrator nntp posting host hoodlum l1135 att com lines hagenjd wfu edu jeff hagen writes the biggest hurdle for automatics imho is not shifting speed per se but rather the transmission reaction speed when you try to force it to shift manually rented an oldsmobile achieva is that yuppie name or what and nissan stanza they both had automatics manual transmission bigot but have to admit that the transmissions on these cars were better shifters than am and yes they responded very quickly to kickdown requests the nissan had tachometer so was able to figure out which gear was in the olds may have also but don remember believe it shifted all the way down to second at about mph when my foot told it no really want to accelerate quickly would still prefer manual but won delude myself into thinking that can out accelerate modern automatic and very smooth at shifting but certainly not as good as an automatic tommy reingold at bell labs holmdel nj tommy boole att com or att boole tommy path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net newsserver jvnc net netnews upenn edu netnews cc lehigh edu ns1 cc lehigh edu ip02 from ip02 ns1 cc lehigh edu danny phornprapha newsgroups rec autos subject zx or sc300 message id apr19 ns1 cc lehigh edu date apr gmt organization lehigh university lines hi everyone getting car in the near future ve narrow it down to zx and sc300 which might be better choice thanks for your opnion danny hey you programmers out there danny phornprapha please consider this ip02 lehigh edu bugs are another endangered earth lucc student konsultant species needing your protection work path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel wupost howland reston ans net agate ames data nas nasa gov mustang mst6 lanl gov ucsbcsl ucsbuxa alh from alh ucsbuxa ucsb edu archie holmes newsgroups rec autos subject prizm radio question keywords prizm geo radio theft message id ucsbcsl ucsb edu date apr gmt sender root ucsbcsl ucsb edu distribution rec lines was lloking at the geo prizm lsi today very nice anyway had questions that the salesperson couldn answer how does the theft deterrent on the prizm audio systems work can find the answer in any of geo lterature thanks in advance archie holmes newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net agate dog ee lbl gov network ucsd edu news acns nwu edu mac178 mech nwu edu user from rts nwu edu ted schreiber subject opinions on recent alfa spiders message id rts mac178 mech nwu edu followup to rec autos sender usenet news acns nwu edu usenet on news acns nntp posting host mac178 mech nwu edu organization mechanical engineering date mon apr gmt lines anyone have any opinions on fairly recent model alfa spiders reliablilty for what their class not talking alfa vs toyota corrola which is more relaible as far as can discern in recent years there are levels with all basically the same mechanical aspects please email any responses ted schreiber mechanical enginering northwestern university tel fax email rts nwu edu from zampicem hpcc01 corp hp com mike zampiceni date sun apr gmt subject re mazda just does not feel right message id hpcc01 corp hp com organization the hp corporate notes server path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc sdd hp com hpscit sc hp com hplextra hpcc05 hpcc01 zampicem newsgroups rec autos references mxm1003 msi umn edu lines the car might also need front end alignment particularly if you re describing wandering newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet world grady from grady world std com dick grady subject re car buying story was christ another dealer service scam message id c5pryy dlh world std com organization the world public access unix brookline ma references apr15 slcs slb com apr16 newsgate sps mot com libemc byuvm bitnet distribution usa date mon apr gmt lines in article libemc byuvm bitnet libemc byuvm bitnet writes mark states in his post to know the dealer price and offer above my husband and are in the market to buy our first car together and neither of us know how to go about it how do you find out the dealer price are their books to look in do you send away somewhere for it several company publish periodicals or times year which list the sticker prices and the dealer invoice prices of all the cars and their options edmund is the name of one such price guide you can find these price guides at most places which sell magazines dick grady salem nh usa grady world std com so many newsgroups so little time path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu husc news harvard edu kuhub cc ukans edu wupost howland reston ans net bogus sura net jhunix hcf jhu edu jhunix hcf jhu edu not for mail newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re players rushed to majors message id pt7vrinnhbt jhunix hcf jhu edu from admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu steve liu date apr sender admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu expires references blue cis pitt edu apr6 adobe com wilbur stanford edu distribution usa organization homewood academic computing johns hopkins university baltimore md usa summary big ben nntp posting host jhunix hcf jhu edu lines don know if you could call him rushed but big ben mcdonald didn much time at all in the minors of course that was because the balls used in aaa had seams too large and gave mcdonald blisters forcing him to go on the dl several times he done most of his learning here in the majors of course gregg wild thing olson and mike deserved cy young mussina didn spend much time in the minors either read somewhere that pitchers are less likely to need that much time in the minors anyway so maybe that has something to do with it let go why not admiral steve still reliving sept liu admiral steve liu internet address admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu commander in chief of the security division of the pi club earth chapter president of the earth chapter of the pi club founded april world champions baltimore orioles why not series in the yards stanley cup champions washington capitals committee for the liberation and intergration of terrifying organisms and their rehabilitation into society the only problem is that the abbreviation is clitoris from the polymorph episode of red dwarf the bangles are the greatest female rock band that ever existed this sig has been brought to you by frungy the sport of kings my god man drilling holes through his head is not the answer dr mccoy you know susanna hoffs has really nice ass comment by flanagan the pi club creating the largest signatures for the past nine months path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov swrinde network ucsd edu news acns nwu edu uicvm uic edu u40348 organization university of illinois at chicago academic computer center date sun apr cdt from jay lorenzana u40348 uicvm uic edu message id u40348 uicvm uic edu newsgroups rec autos subject eagle talon tsi lemon lines dear netters am looking to buy used eagle talon or tsi awd question is that the tsi awd was mentioned in the april consumer reports to car to avoid in particular the manual transmission electrical system and brakes were below par in both models friend of mine ownes tsi awd and he has had brake jobs pads one stuck valve and some clutch transmission problem something about sticking grinding into second gear this doesn seem too bad if one beats on his car am willing to suffer reliability for speed and looks seems you have to pay big buck if you want all three anyway can anyone please let me know how you like your talon and any problems you may have had and if the repairs are worth it thanks for any responses jay newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net wupost csus edu netcom com atom from atom netcom com allen tom subject re dumb options list message id atomc5prvz lf3 netcom com organization sirius cybernetics corporation complaints references apr16 acs ucalgary ca date mon apr gmt lines in article apr16 acs ucalgary ca parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr writes the idea here is to list pointless options you know stuff you get on car that has no earthly use power windows like my power windows think they re worth it however cruise control is pretty dumb option what the point if you re on long trip you floor the gas and keep your eyes on the rear view mirror for cops right power seats are pretty dumb too unless you re unlucky enough to have to share your car otherwise you just adjust it once and just leave it like that allen tom you re not like the others you like the same atom soda berkeley edu things do wax paper boiled football atom netcom com leather dog breath we re not hitchhiking anymore we re riding ren path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net spool mu edu nigel msen com fmsrl7 destroyer cs ubc ca uw beaver news washington edu spiff seattleu edu sumax seattleu edu not for mail from smorris sumax seattleu edu steven morris newsgroups rec autos subject re wife wants convertible date apr organization addiction studies program seattle university lines message id qtb6minndcc sumax seattleu edu references apr16 pts mot com qqun2 de1 usenet ins cwru edu nntp posting host sumax seattleu edu if you hold off there are number of interesting convertibles coming to market in the next few years the new lebaron will be based on the mitsubishi galant which should be an improvement over the current model the new pl compact will have convertible option also chrysler product kia makers of the ford festiva is planning larger convertible steve morris internet smorris sumax seattleu edu addiction studies pgm uucp uw beaver uunet gtenmc dataio sumax smorris seattle university phone dept or direct seattle wa path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse cs uoregon edu news uoregon edu netnews nwnet net news washington edu lanmola eliot from eliot lanmola engr washington edu eliot newsgroups rec autos subject re improvements in automatic transmissions keywords saturn subaru manual automatic message id apr19 engr washington edu date apr gmt article engr apr19 references qsljc dd quad wfunet wfu edu tommy hoodlum organization clearer than blir lines nntp posting host lanmola engr washington edu an excellent automatic can be found in the subaru legacy it switches to sport mode when the electronics figure it not when the driver sets the switch which is the proper way to do it imo so what does sport mode entail several things revving to red line or to the rev limiter in the case of the legacy delayed upshifts if you lift off briefly it will remain in the low gear this is handy if you are charging through corners and would like to do without the distraction of upshifts when there another curve approaching part throttle downshifts based on the speed at which the pedal is depressed rather than the position of the pedal modern electronics can measure this very easily and switch to sport mode this is wonderful if you want to charge through green light about to turn red my audi senses this very well and can downshift on as little as half throttle if my right foot is fast enough also think that smart automatic can deliver better gas mileage than dumb driver with stick all else being equal remember that the idea of stick being more economical than an automatic makes big assumption that the driver is smart enough to know what gear to use for each situation how many times have you ridden with an inattentive driver cruising on the highway at in th gear of speed how many of people who drive manuals really know what the best gear to use is for every conceivable situation sure there will be some who know but suspect that chip controlled automatic with all possible scenario ratio combinations stored in rom is likely to do better can also say that all my previous assumptions were proved wrong after got car with instantaneous mpg readout high gear low revs and wide open throttle is more economical than low gear high revs and small throttle opening the explanation is quite simple if one sits down to think about it but not that obvious at first sight eliot path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc sdd hp com hpscit sc hp com news dtc hp com col hp com dduff from dduff col hp com dave duff newsgroups rec autos subject re taurus sable rotor recall date apr gmt organization hp colorado springs division lines message id qtdssinn64n hp col col hp com references apr18 cronkite ocis temple edu nntp posting host fajita19 cs itc hp com we get about taurus sables for fleet cars at our site every year then the company sells them year later to employees the folks know who drive buy them have no complaints the cars seem to drive real nice too newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet math fu berlin de informatik tu muenchen de regent crh from crh regent technik tu muenchen dbp de christian huebner subject re manual shift bigots message id crh regent technik tu muenchen de sender news regent technik tu muenchen de news system organization technical university of munich germany references qn2lo c9s vela acs oakland edu c5liw2 cax news rich bnr ca apr17 engr washington edu date mon apr gmt lines in rec autos you write if ayrton senna can drive racecar with fully automatic transmission it can be half bad this mclaren auto transmission still think it only half auto but you may be right has nothing to do with your gm chrysler volvo or whatever auto transmission it normal manual transmission gearbox with clutch and all but there are servo motors which do the shifting that means there is no power loss in the drivetrain if you take out minimal mechanical friction and the sami auto transmissions ferrari williams mclaren don tell you when to shift either however these transmissions share an important disadvantage with your stock auto trannie they are expensive as long as these servo shifted gearboxes aren available on normal cars gonna stick with my manual just can see an advantage to make up for two grand lose in this deal and the loss in mileage and power except maybe in real heavy traffic but then drive mostly on the autobahn and country roads anyway there no point in making religion out of this just wanted to point out few technical facts and my own opinion so there no need for flame war eliot have safe ride chris newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net wupost crcnis1 unl edu news unomaha edu cwis issa from issa cwis unomaha edu issa el hazin subject re zx or sc300 message id issa cwis sender news news unomaha edu uno network news server organization university of nebraska at omaha references apr19 ns1 cc lehigh edu date mon apr gmt lines ip02 ns1 cc lehigh edu danny phornprapha writes hi everyone getting car in the near future ve narrow it down to zx and sc300 which might be better choice thanks for your opnion danny ve been asking myself this same question for the past year so if when you find out would you please share the magistic answer with me the way see it right now work twice as hard so you can have both cheers issa xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net wupost uwm edu daffy uwvax astroatc nicmad madnix zaphod from zaphod madnix uucp ron bean subject re rfi art of clutchless shifting message id apr19 madnix uucp organization arp software references apr16 sscvx1 ssc gov apr17 nwnexus wa com date mon apr gmt lines jong halcyon com barking weasel writes schludermann sscvx1 ssc gov writes my technique is to ease back off the throttle and at the same time gently wrist back on the shift lever if for some reason miss the shift window lightly press the accelerator try agian ve found that clutchless shifting is eaiser quicker at high rpms also skip gears some times using sounds about right usually slip it out during throttle down and then blip the throttle and wait until it feels like things are right usually about second and then slip it into gear so how did you guys learn this is it something you were born with or did you make horrible grinding noises the first few times how many times would think you have to have certain amount of feel for it to begin with some people would never get it and others like me would never have the guts to try it unless maybe you were planning to buy new transmission anyway btw ve heard that quite few truckers and race car drivers shift this way zaphod madnix uucp ron bean uwvax astroatc nicmad madnix zaphod newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net wupost uwm edu cs utexas edu asuvax ukma nntp msstate edu isis msstate edu mac1 from mac1 isis msstate edu mubashir cheema subject st time chrysler buyer off really message id mac1 isis msstate edu summary off keywords off sender news ra msstate edu nntp posting host isis msstate edu organization mississippi state university date mon apr gmt lines hello world just bought new stealth two weeks ago got grad student rebate someone told me that there another reabet for st time chrysler buyer true if yes can still get it or am too late mubashir cheema sparco communications ph lagalarie fax russell street suite email mac1 ra msstate edu starkville ms path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech concert rutgers igor rutgers edu remus rutgers edu hong from hong remus rutgers edu hyunki hong newsgroups rec autos subject vw passat advice sought message id apr remus rutgers edu date apr gmt organization rutgers univ new brunswick lines am currently in the car market and would like opinions on vw passat glx how does it compare to toyota camry thought the car looked very solid stable and european only disappointment so far is that that it doesn offer an airbao my next question is why isn vw offering automobiles with airbags should pay the extra three thousand for bmw is even though it is smaller and less powerful than than the passat path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu usenet ins cwru edu howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu uunet lhdsy1 nntpserver chevron com usho0b hou281 chevron com hhtra from hhtra usho0b hou281 chevron com haddock newsgroups rec autos subject re getting car need opinions message id apr19 usho0b hou281 chevron com date apr gmt references apr17 ns1 cc lehigh edu sender news nntpserver chevron com usenet news system organization chevron lines in article apr17 ns1 cc lehigh edu ip02 ns1 cc lehigh edu danny phornprapha writes have as my budget looking for sports or gt car what do you think would be the best buy well for bit more you could get an mazda rx definitely best for under you re stuck with in no particular order chevy camaro z28 lt1 ponitac firebird firehawk ford mustang cobra toyota mr2 turbo gmc typhoon travis path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu bcm bcm tmc edu rremaley from rremaley bcm tmc edu newsgroups rec autos subject re for hail damage record date apr gmt organization baylor college of medicine houston tx lines distribution usa message id r10j9 gazette bcm tmc edu references apr19 cactus org nntp posting host was in the great storm my mazda mpv was damaged so bad they are going to replace the top doors and hood it is black so they will repaint the entire vehicle estimated cost around and repair time approx to weeks rremaley bcm tmc edu xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech sci materials path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net usc sol ctr columbia edu destroyer cs ubc ca unixg ubc ca erich triumf ca music from music erich triumf ca fred bach newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech sci materials subject re auto air conditioning without freon date apr pst organization triumf tri university meson facility lines distribution usa message id apr199313375138 erich triumf ca references apr15 research nj nec com apr16 newsgate sps mot com apr19 research nj nec com nntp posting host erich triumf ca keywords r12 freon cfc greenhouse news software vax vms vnews in article apr19 research nj nec com behanna syl nj nec com chris behanna writes in article apr16 newsgate sps mot com rapw20 email sps mot com writes in article apr15 research nj nec com behanna syl nj nec com chris behanna writes several chemists already have come up with several substitutes for r12 you don hear about them because the mobile air conditioning society macs that is the people who stand to rake in that to per retrofit per automobile have mounted an organized campaign to squash those r12 substitutes out of existence if not ban them altogether on very shaky technical grounds at best on outright lies at worst now not saying you re wrong because know that the substitutes exist but this sounds lot like the mpg carbs that the oil companies keep us all from getting it sounds crazy but it true one of the best subsitutes ghg is currently commercial product unfortunately the sae committee on mobile air conditioning is comprised almost exclusively of macs members such being the case no papers about any alternative refrigerant other than have been accepted for review publication yo john you want to provide some more details or should just repost your voluminous repost later chris behanna dod fxwg wide glide jubilee red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb360t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs name agree with any of this anyway was raised by pack of wild corn dogs we here are very interested in info on r12 substitutes in fact think we really need all the info on this we can get would really appreciate technical supply and hardware upgrade details also r12 is useful solvent reagent in the extraction production of certain pharmaceuticals any info on the substitutes corresponding usefullness am currently working with the local engineers who are making sure we are compliant with the regulations the trouble with regulations is that they only tell you what you are no longer permitted to do not what you should do instead think the cause of the new regulations is the montreal protocol which has definite cfc phase out schedule of course the cause of the montreal protocol was all the research done on the causes of the ozone depletion problem someone asked earlier about why the governments were working so fast to ban the ozone depleting cfc chemicals and not gasolines and other greenhouse gas producing compounds the greenhouse effect produced by infrared trapping gasses like co2 and methane and the ozone hole problem produced by long lived chlorine containing molecules are not the same thing it is lot easier to do something about not using the cfc chloro fluorocarbons than it is to stop producing co2 and methane which are natural byproducts of combustion and of living animal organisms planting more trees and not destroying so many existing trees would help the greenhouse gas problem but would do nothing for the ozone problem fred bach operations group internet music erich triumf ca triumf tri university meson facility voice loc wesbrook mall ubc campus fax university of british columbia vancouver canada v6t a3 these are my opinions which should only make you read think and question they do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer or fellow workers newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech swrinde elroy jpl nasa gov usc cs utexas edu convex convex kimata from kimata convex com hiroki kimata subject re open letter to nissan sender usenet news eng convex com news access account message id kimata convex convex com date thu apr gmt distribution na references qideqinnl79 sumax seattleu edu nntp posting host zeppelin convex com organization engineering convex computer corp richardson tx usa disclaimer this message was written by user at convex computer corp the opinions expressed are those of the user and not necessarily those of convex lines in qideqinnl79 sumax seattleu edu smorris sumax seattleu edu steven morris writes hey nissan why aren you guys making any station wagons you used to make wagon on every platform sentra stanza maxima and now none at all in fact they make some but they just don sell them here in sunny california is wagon based on sentra avenil is wd wd wagon it looks like infinity g20 but actually it independently designed to be wagon mean it not based on any sedans nissan had better consider to sell them here after buying my se and really loving it would like to buy another nissan product for my wife but prefer wagon ve owned minivans and don prefer them how about an altima wagon or sentra wagon would do sounds nice but doubt they have plan coz avenil was introduced to replace any sedan based wagon or here an even better suggestion why don you guys go ahead and buy the rest of fuji heavy industries subaru and put either an in line or into the legacy wd wagon buy the legacy in minute if it had nissan engine instead of the horizontal that they seem sentimentally attached to with all the camry accord taurus volvo and subaru wagons out there it got to be market segment that would be worthwhile can wait year or two but if you don have something to compete by the model may have to go elsewhere thanks steve morris internet smorris sumax seattleu edu addiction studies pgm uucp uw beaver uunet gtenmc dataio sumax smorris seattle university phone dept or direct seattle wa xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech alt autos antique rec autos antique newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech alt autos antique rec autos antique path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu linac att cbnewse turbo from turbo cbnewse cb att com gerald lindahl subject re warning please read organization at date thu apr gmt message id apr15 cbnewse cb att com references apr15 virginia edu lines from article apr15 virginia edu by ejv2j virginia edu erik velapoldi this happened about year ago on the washington dc beltway snot nosed drunken kids decided it would be really cool to throw huge rocks down on cars from an overpass four or five cars were hit there were several serious injuries and sadly small girl sitting in the front seat of one of them was struck in the head by one of the larger rocks don recall if she made it but think she was comatose for month or so and doctors weren holding out hope that she live what the hell is happening to this great country of ours can see boyhood pranks of peeing off of bridges and such but pound rocks has our society really stooped this low erik velapold yes xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech alt autos antique rec autos antique path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net spool mu edu studsys mscs mu edu jason from jason studsys mscs mu edu jason hanson newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech alt autos antique rec autos antique subject re warning please read date apr gmt organization marquette university department mscs lines message id qke5b mc4 spool mu edu references apr15 virginia edu apr15 cbnewse cb att com nntp posting host studsys mscs mu edu in article apr15 cbnewse cb att com turbo cbnewse cb att com gerald lindahl writes from article apr15 virginia edu by ejv2j virginia edu erik velapoldi this happened about year ago on the washington dc beltway snot nosed drunken kids decided it would be really cool to throw huge rocks down on cars from an overpass four or five cars were hit there were several serious injuries and sadly about year ago some kids tossed rock off an overpass on near eau claire wisconsin and it killed the driver below believe he was schoolteacher from minnesota jason hanson wisconsin ave marquette university milwaukee wi ham radio n9lea ae jason studsys mscs mu edu n9lea n0ary nocal ca usa na path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu swrinde network ucsd edu ucsnews newshub sdsu edu pandora jdenune from jdenune pandora sdsu edu john denune newsgroups rec autos subject re car buying story was christ another dealer service scam date apr gmt organization san diego state university college of sciences lines distribution usa message id qk5a3 qqc pandora sdsu edu references apr15 newsgate sps mot com nntp posting host pandora sdsu edu newsreader tin version pl9 mark monninger markm bigfoot sps mot com wrote while not exactly service incident had similar experience recently when bought new truck had picked out the vehicle wanted and after little haggling we agreed on price wrote them check for the down payment plus tax and license and told them be back that evening to pick up the truck when returned had to wait about an hour before the finance guy could get to me when finally got in there everything went smoothly until he started adding up the numbers he then discovered that they had miscalculated the tax license by about he then said he needed another from me said we had already agreed on price and it was their problem wasn giving them any more money the finance guy then similar thing happend to me year ago bought used ford bronco which has since been stolen and few weeks after paid and took delivery they sent letter telling me they goofed and miscalculated the license renewal by and that need to send in check to avoid further delay in the processing of my registration the thing is had already received the pink slip from the dmv so ignored it received another letter and then the phone calls started coming first from the finance guy and then from the general manager both hounding me for the extra money they left me alone once told them already had the paperwork and pointed out the clause in the contract that stated that the final price was just that final afterall they wouldn budge if had told them wanted another off after the deal had been signed right told them not to call again and that would not do business with them in the future they didn seem to have problem with that this after all was used ford at toyota dealership had much better experience buying new pathfinder about month ago it certainly pays to buy car on the last sunday of the month it was even raining too so they had done very little business that weekend and were really willing to deal kept telling them would think about it and they kept dropping the price got very good deal and so far have been very please with the service john jdenune pandora sdsu edu xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech concert borg cs unc edu not for mail from brandt cs unc edu andrew brandt newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech subject seeking good alfa romeo mechanic followup to poster date apr organization the university of north carolina at chapel hill lines message id qkc4minn1g5 axon cs unc edu nntp posting host axon cs unc edu keywords alfa romeo spider mechanic am looking for recommendations for good great alfa romeo mechanic in south jersey or philadelphia or nearby have alfa spider that needs some engine tranny steering work done the body is in quite good shape the car is awful in cold weather won start if below freezing know know why drive spider if there snow on the ground it has bosch mechanical fuel injection that am sure needs adjustment any opinions are welcome on what to look for or who to call email or post to rec autos will summarize if people want thx andy brandt cs unc edu xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net news cs brandeis edu chaos cs brandeis edu andyh from andyh chaos cs brandeis edu andrew huang subject re changing oil by self message id apr15 news cs brandeis edu sender news news cs brandeis edu usenet news system organization brandeis university references apr14 dsd es com apr14 progress apr15 magnus acs ohio state edu date thu apr gmt lines in article apr15 magnus acs ohio state edu sorlin magnus acs ohio state edu steven orlin writes take the electrodes of the amp ohm volt meter whatever and connect one to each earlobe then symmetrically insert my fingers in each of the spark plug boots no cheating guys both hands must be used have just couple of questions about this technique first what firing order should use do start with my pointer finger or my pinky left hand or right and secondly have cyl and there are two cylinders unaccounted for any suggestions andy path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc rutgers walter porthos bmw535 dje from dje bmw535 nosubdomain nodomain don eilenberger newsgroups rec autos subject re do trains have radar message id apr14 porthos cc bellcore com date apr gmt references apr13 usho72 hou281 chevron com sender dje bmw535 don eilenberger organization bellcore livingston nj lines in article apr13 usho72 hou281 chevron com hhtra usho72 hou281 chevron com haddock writes while taking an extended easter vacation was going north on somewhere between centerville tx and dallas tx and came upon train parked on trestle with its locomotive sitting directly over the northbound lanes there appeared to be movement within the cab and out of curiosity slowed to to get better look just as passed from underneath the trestle my radar detector went into full alert all lights lit and all chirps beeps and buzzes going strong thought had been nailed good but no police materialized could this have been caused by the train radio or what travis boy travis were you lucky you went under the new texas rangers stealth patrol car good thing you slowed down newsgroups rec autos distribution world followup to references apr13 usho72 hou281 chevron com from dje bmw535 nosubdomain nodomain don eilenberger organization subject re do trains have radar keywords path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc usc not for mail from ciarlett mizar usc edu joni ciarletta newsgroups rec autos subject honda accord brake problem date apr organization university of southern california los angeles ca lines sender nntp mizar usc edu distribution world message id qkg4pinn9s4 mizar usc edu nntp posting host mizar usc edu my honda accord just hit the magic mile mark and now all sorts of things are beginning to go bad the latest problem am experiencing is with my brakes they still stop the car fine but once am stopped completely my brake pedal will sink another or inches all by itself if feels really strange and am worried my brakes will quit working one of these days checked my brake fluid and the reservoir was full but the fluid itself looked really dirty like dirty oil called my mechanic and he told me need new brake master cylinder which will cost me whopping was just wondering if anyone out there has experienced this sort of thing if so is my mechanic being honest or do simply need to have my brakes bled and new fluid put in any help you could provide would be appreciated please send replies directly to me as rarely have chance to read this list will post the responses if there is any interest thanks joni ciarlett mizar usc edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu ub acsu buffalo edu sprec from sprec acsu buffalo edu joel sprechman newsgroups rec autos subject cleaning eurowiper boots message id c5jk0g e1l acsu buffalo edu date apr gmt sender nntp acsu buffalo edu organization ub lines nntp posting host autarch acsu buffalo edu have the eurowiper boots in white and had to throw away the first pair since found no way of cleaning them after they looked almost black now have my second pair of white ones and once again they are dirty need way to clean them removing them since had to cut them to remove them is there way or should just buy black ones thanks joel joel sprechman sprec acsu buffalo edu university at buffalo v069pff7 ubvms cc buffalo edu it not black white thing it homosapian thing it takes big man to cry and an even bigger man to laugh at that man jack handy newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet walter wind jchen from jchen wind bellcore com jason chen subject re open letter to nissan really station wagon message id apr15 walter bellcore com sender jchen wind jason chen nntp posting host wind bellcore com reply to jchen ctt bellcore com organization bell communications research references qideqinnl79 sumax seattleu edu kimata convex convex com distribution na date thu apr gmt lines with the popularity of minivans the market room for station wagons is squeezed out they are not as comfortable as sedan and don carry as much as the minivans this is not to say nobody wants the wagon anymore but the demand is certainly hampered by the minivan and may not be economical to build product for jason chen station wagon owner newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net agate boulder bowmanj from bowmanj csn org jerry bowman subject re old corvettes low insurance message id apr15 colorado edu sender news colorado edu the daily planet nntp posting host fred colorado edu organization university of colorado boulder ocs references apr15 ns1 cc lehigh edu c5j5mi fmi news rich bnr ca date thu apr gmt lines in article c5j5mi fmi news rich bnr ca peon email eric youngblood writes in article apr15 ns1 cc lehigh edu swr2 ns1 cc lehigh edu scott warren rosander writes in article c5csux fn1 news cso uiuc edu gdhg8823 uxa cso uiuc edu george hei nz writes after too many years of school finally graduating and getting real job of course am trying to make plans of how to spend all this extra money right now have an accord good car but not real sporty was thinking of selling it in about two years and dropping around on sports car of some kind after thinking about it may have better idea ll keep the accord until it drops and buy the car ve always wanted corvette stingray my reasoning is that accord corvette is less than what would spend anyway basically thinking of late early for around my question is what are good years to consider for reliability looks horsepower in that order believe it or not horsepower is not main concern if want to go fast get on my motorcycle and what are good prices also what would insurance look like male single might wait until to get the car lower insurance would the fact that mainly drive the other car lower it is there some type of classic car or rarely driven insurance class for driving it under miles per year my dad has vette and its on what you say classic insurance basically what that means is that it has restricted amount of driving time which basically means it cant be used as an every day car and would probably suit your needs for limited mileage in my area denver if you look around alittle you can get an for or less not much less you said your not looking to go fast they are really nice car just not real powerful in addition to restricted mileage many classic insurance carriers also require that the vehicle be garaged when not in use ericy eric youngblood bell northern research richardson texas peon email privs path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu unisql wrat from wrat unisql uucp wharfie newsgroups rec autos subject re sho clutch question grinding noise message id unisql uucp date apr gmt references c5ggmm x8 mentor cc purdue edu c5h6f8 ldu news rich bnr ca organization unisql inc austin texas usa lines in article c5h6f8 ldu news rich bnr ca jcyuhn crchh574 nosubdomain nodomain james yuhn writes that not the clutch you re hearing its the gearbox early shos have lot of what is referred to as gear rollover noise you can generally have one of the first shos built and mine doesn make this noise path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu unisql wrat from wrat unisql uucp wharfie newsgroups rec autos subject re too fast message id unisql uucp date apr gmt references qehi6 ork armory centerline com unisql uucp qh61m b6l armory centerline com organization unisql inc austin texas usa lines in article qh61m b6l armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes it bit hard to prove point like this but can compare the was hoping for something like the chassis exhibits degrees of flex when subjected to forces of more than units forces of more than units begin to manifest at miles per hour not well gee it wasn designed to go fast because uhh well gee it wasn designed to go fast it not porsche you know come with better seatbelts more supportive seats stronger passenger compartment cage better brakes stiffer suspension different tires and body design that takes advantage of aero effects to keep the car on the ground what do they come with well as compared to the normal taurus the sho comes with more supportive seats better brakes stiffer suspension different tires and body design that takes advantage of aero effects to keep the car on the ground or at least think that what all that boy racer plastic is for you re kidding yourself if you think any car on the road has passenger compartment made to withstand mph impacts compare either to the porsche and you tell me which was designed oh right only dollar cars should be driven fast they drive goddamn rabbits at mph in europe pal and reckon taurus is at least as capable as rabbit certainly haven convinced me of course not speeding is bad speeding is illegal will not speed love big brother you had your mind made up already it interesting that lots of the roads out west had no speed limits until wr path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu unisql wrat from wrat unisql uucp wharfie newsgroups rec autos subject re too fast message id unisql uucp date apr gmt references qehi6 ork armory centerline com unisql uucp apr14 magnus acs ohio state edu organization unisql inc austin texas usa lines in article apr14 magnus acs ohio state edu jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu john nielsen writes there may be case where speed limit sign is not necessary but take them away entirely yeah you re right doing away with speed limits would just mean huge tax increases as municipalities tried to make up for the revenue they used to gouge from passing motorists path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc sdd hp com caen uvaarpa gems vcu edu cabell vcu edu csc2imd newsgroups rec sport baseball subject marlin fans message id apr7 cabell vcu edu from csc2imd cabell vcu edu ian derby date wed apr gmt expires fri apr gmt organization virginia commonwealth university keywords mf summary marlin fans lines was watching the dodgers marlins game yesterday and couple of things impressed me first is that the way the sun was shining in miami it had summer atmosphere in early spring for baseball in comparison wrigley field in early april still has wintry look to it with the dead ivy and bundled up fans the second and most important was the fans like these guys gals will admit am football fan first but still enjoy baseball it was interesting because most of these fans are only accustomed to the miami dolphins the way they were cheering thought it was the afc playoffs of course opening day may have lot to do with it but really got feeling of electricity that think is lacking with lot of baseball fans in other cities baseball certainly needs charge and hope these two expansion teams bring back some excitement we ll find out friday how denver bronco fans respond phillies are better say it now before my opportunity passes by path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net noc near net news centerline com jimf from jimf centerline com jim frost newsgroups rec autos subject re too fast message id qkon8 re armory centerline com date apr gmt article armory qkon8 re references qehi6 ork armory centerline com unisql uucp qh61m b6l armory centerline com unisql uucp organization centerline software inc lines nntp posting host wrat unisql uucp wharfie writes compare either to the porsche and you tell me which was designed oh right only dollar cars should be driven fast they drive goddamn rabbits at mph in europe pal and reckon taurus is at least as capable as rabbit my whole point was not to say that the cars couldn go that fast but that they shouldn go that fast family sedan designed to be operable at mph doesn suddenly become operable at mph because you added some plastic aero effects slightly wider tires and much larger engine that what the sho is slightly modified family sedan with powerful engine they didn even bother improving the brakes the mustang is essentially the same deal as the sho big power plant stuck in mid size sedan with almost no other modifications have real life experience with the mustang it handles like brick except when you re invoking oversteer of course something personally avoid doing on the highway and stopping power is inadequate even from mph lots of accelleration but the rest of the car is not up to par picked the porsche example because they are designed with speed in mind it didn have to be the it could have been the much cheaper or one of several mercedes or audi models all of these cars are fairly expensive but so are the parts that make them drivable at high speed this should be elementary there are few things to keep in mind about europe since you brought it up my autobahn knowledge is admittedly second hand but believe the following to be true drivers are much better disciplined in europe than they are here the roads comprising the autobahn are much better designed than they are here and usually include animal fences this makes them far more predictable than most us highways not all of europe is the autobahn most places in europe have speed limits that aren out of line with what we used to have in the us if my friends weren lying to me they re typically not much higher than km strongly suspect you won find lot of rabbit owners doing mph nearly km on the autobahn but could be wrong some people have no respect for their own lives you certainly haven convinced me of course not speeding is bad speeding is illegal will not speed love big brother you had your mind made up already if you think so you sure don pay attention to my postings jim frost jimf centerline com newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet infonode ingr fsd340 dchamber from dchamber b15news b15 ingr com doug chamberlain subject re cherokee explorer message id apr15 b15news b15 ingr com organization intergraph corporation huntsville al references c5ds8n bg cmcl2 nyu edu date thu apr gmt lines jcksnste acf1 nyu edu writes hi all brand new to the group so please no flames honest opinions on jeep cherokee country not sport ford explorer my stepfather who ponders every major decision up to four months after making it is looking at one of the two also please comment on the importance if any between wd and wd we live in princeton nj and will barely ever take it off road we learned with this last winter that we could really use something with little more confidence in inches of snow than an olds cutlass eighty eight all replies appreciated he ll be pondering this for while he already decided on cyl over so don worry about that one thanks steve own new ford explorer really love it drove the jeep and besides the power just didn see spending the money for it the jeep was great but just love the explorer have wd and got through the blizzard of just fine drove about miles in the worst part of storm and it never faulterd my own opinion doug jcksnste acf1 nyu edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu ogicse henson n8643084 from n8643084 henson cc wwu edu owings matthew newsgroups rec autos subject re ranger vs opinions message id apr15 henson cc wwu edu date apr gmt article henson apr15 references apr13 msus1 msus edu organization western washington university lines if your buying compact pickup do yourself favor and wait few months for the gmc sonoma magazines are saying it is day and night over the current truck it georgeous solid and fast hp vortec should whip the ranger in every area too accept maybe payload and always pick gmc over chevy gmc are always so much better looking man miss the comanche marty and matt owings ninja type rider dudes it feeling that we all wanna know and it an obsession to some to keep the world in you rearview mirror while you try to run down the sun wheels by rhestless heart newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet walter wind jchen from jchen wind bellcore com jason chen subject lh workmanship message id apr15 walter bellcore com sender jchen wind jason chen nntp posting host wind bellcore com reply to jchen ctt bellcore com organization bell communications research date thu apr gmt lines just visited the ny auto show and saw two lh cars on the floor eagle vision and dodge intrepid really nice must say very attractive styling lots of features and room at competitive price unfortunately the workmanship is quite disappointing on both cars the rubber seals around the window and door fell off it turns out the seals are just big grooved rubber band it goes on just by pressing the groove against the tongue on the door frame surely it would come off easily am not sure how many of this kind of pooring engineering assembly problems that will show up later may still consider buying it but only when it establishes good track record jason chen xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu usenet coe montana edu news washington edu spiff seattleu edu thebes ole ssave from ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate subject re changing oil by self message id apr15 ole cdac com organization cdac wa references qgi8einnhs5 skeena ucs ubc ca apr14 porthos cc bellcore com date thu apr gmt lines in article apr14 porthos cc bellcore com dje bmw535 nosubdomain nodomain don eilenberger writes in article qgi8einnhs5 skeena ucs ubc ca yiklam unixg ubc ca yik chong lam writes hello does anyone know how to take out the bolt under the engine compartment should turn clockwise or counter tried any kind of lubricants wd etc but still failed do you think can use electric drill change to suitable bit to turn it out if can succeed can re tighten it not too tight is it safe without oil leak thank you very much in advance winson would suggest you take the car to the nearest chevron dealer with your own oil and filter ask for an oil change it will cost less than watch him her do it just from watching someone do job you will be able to learn and remember the sequence and do it right when you do it yourself the next time besides when he she loosens the drain nut the next time around it will be easier for you if it is stuck use an impact wrench not too much force though use new washer each time you put the nut back ssave ole cdac com newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu usenet coe montana edu news washington edu ns1 nodak edu badlands nodak edu maloney from maloney badlands nodak edu pat maloney subject pontiac mail car clubs sender usenet ns1 nodak edu usenet login message id c5jlmx fwp ns1 nodak edu date thu apr gmt nntp posting host badlands nodak edu organization north dakota higher education computing network newsreader tin version pl8 lines am interested to know if there is any pontiac mail car clubs out there has anyone started one or is anybody thinking about starting one thanks for any info you can give me maloney badlands nodak edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net nic umass edu risky ecs umass edu umaecs sylveste from sylveste ecs umass edu newsgroups rec autos subject re ultimate awd vehicles message id bcd8b62 ecs umass edu date apr gmt references apr7 ucsu colorado edu q34huinnjrv uwm edu apr09 engr washington edu lines in article apr09 engr washington edu eliot lanmola engr washington edu eliot writes in article q34huinnjrv uwm edu qazi csd4 csd uwm edu writes subarus don sell that well although the percentage of subes purchased with awd is probably relatively high of all subarus sold are wd awd audi is backing down on the number of models it offers with awd before one could purchase an or with awd but now it is reserved strictly for the top line model the same goes for the the has been eliminated from the us lineup but the is still available in quattro version though it is hardly cheap they are still true to their pledge of making wd an option on their entire line of cars now if only they will bring in the s4 wagon eliot before the s4 became the s4 it was called the turbo quattro this model did come in wagon very quick wagon very rare also mike sylvester umass xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech alt autos antique rec autos antique newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech alt autos antique rec autos antique path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net spool mu edu nigel msen com yale edu yale gumby destroyer cs ubc ca mprgate newshost neilson from neilson seoul mpr ca robert neilson subject re warning please read in reply to madman austin ibm com message of thu apr gmt message id neilson apr15135919 seoul mpr ca sender news mprgate mpr ca nntp posting host seoul organization mpr teltech ltd burnaby canada references apr14 rd hydro on ca apr15 virginia edu c5jcpa ptt austin ibm com date apr lines sorry for the auto content but that is why low abiding citizens should have the power to protect themselves and their property using deadly force if necessary anywhere threat is imminent steve heracleous you do have the power steve you can do it why don you why don you go shoot some kids who are tossing rocks onto cars make sure you do good job though don miss cause like they have big rocks and take it from me those kids are mean xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu darwin sura net udel news intercon com psinntp megatest mithril hanguyen from hanguyen megatest com ha nguyen subject re changing oil by self message id c5jfxe jp9 megatest com organization megatest corporation references apr14 cactus org apr14 dsd es com apr14 progress com date thu apr gmt lines in article apr14 progress com damelio progress com stephen amelio writes bmoss grinch sim es com brent woody moss writes you could take screw driver and hammer and start punching holes in various locations and when some black slippery stuff starts pouring out then you would know that the oil drain plug is nearby within foot or two anyway close the holes with toilet paper before refileing with oil though you have to refill the engine with oil wow no wonder can get an engine to last more than my first oil change don forget to punch holes in the radiator too it will spray nice refreshing water on the engine and keep it nice cool steve gee you really make me confused what is radiator where is it located what does it look like will it release any radiation since it sounds like radia tion genera tor when you punch holes hanguyen newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu utnut nott cunews freenet carleton ca freenet carleton ca ae015 from ae015 freenet carleton ca steve hui subject re instead of saturn sc2 what message id apr15 freenet carleton ca sender news freenet carleton ca news administrator organization national capital freenet ottawa canada date thu apr gmt lines one thing that everyone is forgetting in this argument over the pricing of the sc1 vs the japanese cars is the saturns no dicker sticker this makes the saturn price low in comparison to the inflated base prices of the japanese competition on paper but in reality one could dicker several hundred dollars off the price of the japanese cars admittedly though here in canada at least the sc2 is in the same price class as the civic si not the sc1 steve hui path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc sdd hp com col hp com theckel from theckel col hp com tim heckel newsgroups rec autos subject re instead of saturn sc2 what date apr gmt organization colorado springs it center lines distribution na message id qkkl5innbvo hp col col hp com references c5gah8 mccc edu nntp posting host pizza8 cs itc hp com for those that are interested got my fully optioned air abs sunroof se in september for in sacramento ca it was one of the st sold few of the dealers had any no local dealer had an abs equipped se went straight to the fleet manager at the dealership liked told him what wanted made him aware that knew what his price should be he called me back with exactly what wanted from dealer mi away took delivery the next day path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu cactus org boyle from boyle cactus org craig boyle newsgroups rec autos subject re lh workmanship message id apr15 cactus org date apr gmt article cactus apr15 references apr15 walter bellcore com organization capital area central texas unix society austin tx lines in article apr15 walter bellcore com jchen ctt bellcore com writes just visited the ny auto show and saw two lh cars on the floor eagle vision and dodge intrepid really nice must say very attractive styling lots of features and room at competitive price unfortunately the workmanship is quite disappointing on both cars the rubber seals around the window and door fell off it turns out the seals are just big grooved rubber band it goes on just by pressing the groove against the tongue on the door frame surely it would come off easily lack of build quality was the thing notced on the first lh saw months back the panel gaps were large and non uniform between the cars saw the kind of thing you expect and accept on mustang but not from chrysler savior drove one of the low end cars and thought it was more than adequate prefer an lh to taurus from my brief experience craig am not sure how many of this kind of pooring engineering assembly problems that will show up later may still consider buying it but only when it establishes good track record jason chen path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu cactus org boyle from boyle cactus org craig boyle newsgroups rec autos subject re too fast message id apr15 cactus org date apr gmt article cactus apr15 references qg19v ju umcc umcc umich edu apr14 cactus org bob1 cos distribution world organization capital area central texas unix society austin tx lines in article bob1 cos bob1 cos com bob blackshaw writes in apr14 cactus org boyle cactus org craig boyle writes in article qg19v ju umcc umcc umich edu mhartman umcc umcc umich edu mark hartman writes driving in straight line is fine you very soon become aclimated to it it only rush when there are corners that you don think you can make on clear autobahn is nothing in the of people and all judges would label you insane and it is difficult to persuade people otherwise sure but the surface condition of most good autobahns is far better the quality of autobahns is something of myth the road surface isn much different to typical tx freeway they are better in terms of lighting safety signs roadmarkings etc have no problem driving on most us freeways as it is save it for the backroads which really are more likely to be dangerous than most of the roads here dip in the asphalt that you test your shocks on at will kill you at don get me wrong love to it would have to be quite severe don recall any us freeway without road damage warnings that would regard as unsafe at in any decent well damped car note that my definition of decent well damped would exclude most typical american sedans drive quickly and they say my probe will do but that more than ve ever tried in it cause there isn decent enough piece of road hereabouts don know where you live but would be much more worried about cops other traffic etc than the road surface at it just isn that fast or that dangerous if you have probe gt no problem the cyl models have driven would be likely to be unpredictable at higher speeds craig craig mark hartman mhartman umcc umcc umich edu kalamazoo mi bk405 cleveland freenet edu naked in the school sleepyhead bob path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu cactus org boyle from boyle cactus org craig boyle newsgroups rec autos subject re dumbest automotive concepts of all time message id apr15 cactus org date apr gmt article cactus apr15 references qa1 wichitaks ncr com apr15 acs ucalgary ca c5jnk3 jkt news cso uiuc edu organization capital area central texas unix society austin tx lines in article c5jnk3 jkt news cso uiuc edu cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes wasn the original intent of the reverse lights for the driver so he could see where he was backing up although reverse lights on the sides no reverse lights are to warn others that you are backing up they aren bright enough to typically see by without the brake and tail lights are useful for telling whether cars are backing up out perpendicular to the path of the car don think warnings were their original intents since they are colored white well red and orange were already taken maybe white defines the direction that the car is moving in if you really want to be able to see behind you get some fog lamps for the back of the car these work very well and are good way to get rid of tailgaters if you get that rush of testosterone craig chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu neil peart quick to judge quick to anger slow to understand ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net news cac psu edu icf hrb com jek from jek icf hrb com joe karolchik newsgroups rec autos subject re warning please read message id apr15 icf hrb com date apr est references apr14 rd hydro on ca apr15 virginia edu c5jcpa ptt austin ibm com organization hrb systems inc lines deleted your name because don want to sound accusative in my remark this is two sided problem unfortunately our culture has been deteriorating over time the breeding of these low life is getting worse our justice system is at best extremely weak to handle these problems that is why low abiding citizens should have the power to protect themselves and their property using deadly force if necessary anywhere threat is imminent my camaro my pride and joy got stolen right out of my driveway few years back the persons that did that were eventually caught lucky for me but not before having trashed the car on another occasion on my way from texas to florida had stopped in small motel for the night in small town somewhere in florida about youths were disturbing my car setting off the alarm and challenging me to come out when and another tenant walked out with magnum and automatic respectively they vanished needless to say immediately packed up and left watch out for car jacking and staged accidents they can be deadly not going to argue the issue of carrying weapons but would ask you if you would have thought seriously about shooting kid for setting off your alarm can think of worse things in the world glad you got out of there before they did anything to give you reason to fire your gun we can all ask what happening to society these days but don forget to ask another important question too what effort am expending to make it any different than it is just my thoughts joe karolchik newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu darwin sura net cos cos bob1 from bob1 cos com bob blackshaw subject re braindead drivers who don look ahead message id bob1 cos keywords bad drivers organization corporation for open systems references apr14 ctp com distribution usa date thu apr gmt lines in apr14 ctp com bpita ctp com bob pitas writes in article zdem0a hgo7 zdem0a hgo7 hou amoco com donna martz writes stuff deleted excuse me but understood what mr smith meant and have often observed when traffic is blocked solid that if few people yeild to the moron who is impatiently riding bumpers the slug at the front of the pack will miraculously wake up change lanes and viola no more jam granted the situation here does not apply to rush hour in crowded city but have observed this situation regularly on your average interstate six or eight sets of cars side by side bunched up in pack with open freeway fore and aft as far as you can see the people who refuse to yeild as point of honor are just as annoying as the slug in the front agree that if traffic is all blocked up and you want to pass you might not feel like moving over for someone behind you because you don want to give them that one car length when they should just wait like you are but if you re one of those people that just sit behind the person and doesn flash them with the high beams or pull left and flash them or ride their bumper or otherwise tell them that you do in fact want to go by and you re not just drafting them then get the hell out of the way of someone who will especially hate it when you flash someone at the back of line and they don pass it on so after ve flashed my lights at the chap in front and he doesn pass it on and few if any do what next on major highways or more lanes in each direction keeping to the extreme right blocks folks who are entering also as someone posted in this thread here in the area we have few left lane exits sounds like if you wait until the last minute to get in the left lane you won cause these yoyos won make room we have particularly bad strech here in merryland just over the cabin john bridge there are two very long entry ramps which all the hurry up yahoos dive into cause they want to get ahead when we get to the point where these ramps merge all hell breaks lose the result is that traffic which was moving at on the va side of the bridge stalls on other side if these dingbats had stayed in lane allowed the folks coming up the two ramps to merge we would still be doing instead we do start stop for miles dave barry idea of laser equipped car would be real useful here bob ps if you drive the beltway and want to merge look for brown probe with silver haired driver then use your signals don read minds but do try to be courteous they told me courtesy was contagious but guess the folks around here have had their shots path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net ctron news ctron com ctron news ctron com usenet from smith ctron com lawrence smith newsgroups rec autos subject re warning please read followup to alt activism date apr gmt organization cabletron systems inc lines distribution world message id qkiedinn63l ctron news ctron com references apr14 rd hydro on ca apr15 virginia edu qk7t5 dg armory centerline com c5jgc4 ajj dove nist gov reply to smith ctron com nntp posting host glinda ctron com in article c5jgc4 ajj dove nist gov keys starchild ncsl nist gov lawrence keys writes know that this isn the group for it but since you brought it up does anyone have any idea why they haven bombed the waco cult perhaps it is because witnesses who have left the compound have all testified that the batf shot first they they did not identify themselves before tossing in concussion grenades not that anyone inside could have heard such identification after being near concussion grenade and the announcement from the batf that they have sealed the warrant under which they were operating which was search warrant by the way not an arrest warrant in short perhaps because the batf is wildly out of control and perhaps calmer heads have realized that bombing compound full of woman and children will not improve their position there is real chance that koresh will be able to prove self defense in court that will leave what four officers dead and no one to blame but the batf followups directed to alt activism where the discussion has raged nearly as long as the seige and which shows every sign of not giving up nearly as soon larry smith smith ctron com no don speak for cabletron need you ask liberty is not the freedom to do whatever we want it is the freedom to do whatever we are able newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu darwin sura net udel news intercon com psinntp megatest mithril alung from alung megatest com aaron lung subject re electronic odometers was used bmw question message id c5jkcq k7i megatest com organization megatest corporation references apr14 porthos cc bellcore com conradie firga sun ac za dirac physics purdue edu date thu apr gmt lines in article dirac physics purdue edu lovall bohr physics purdue edu daniel lovall writes it shouldn be that hard if you know much about digital electronics if the counter is made with standard ttl chips all you should need to do is find the chip used for counting figure out what mileage you want to put in and preset it but wiring the preset pins directly to low high you also have to know what the conventions are for low and high it might be little more involved than this but it shouldn be beyond someone with bsee or bs eet all the display does is convert what the counter chips say into digits using translation table stored in rom nobody is using discrete ic to do these functions anymore if at all doubt any of the motor electronics had any to start with much less ttl can almost guarantee that it ll fruitless attempt to figure out how bmw does it without breaking anything and invalidating any warranty on the car if you re lucky you still be able to start the car xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech alt autos antique rec autos antique newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech alt autos antique rec autos antique path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu ux1 cso uiuc edu news cso uiuc edu uxa cso uiuc edu cka52397 from cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc subject re warning please read date thu apr gmt message id c5jnq9 jqm news cso uiuc edu references apr14 rd hydro on ca apr15 virginia edu apr15 convex com sender usenet news cso uiuc edu net noise owner organization university of illinois at urbana lines tobias convex com allen tobias writes in article apr15 virginia edu ejv2j virginia edu erik velapoldi writes this happened about year ago on the washington dc beltway snot nosed drunken kids decided it would be really cool to throw huge rocks down on cars from an overpass four or five cars were hit there were several serious injuries and sadly small girl sitting in the front seat of one of them was struck in the head by one of the larger rocks don recall if she made it but think she was comatose for month or so and doctors weren holding out hope that she live the girl ok actually and she recovered well enough to go home don know if she has any permanent damage though just in case anybody was concerned what the hell is happening to this great country of ours can see boyhood pranks of peeing off of bridges and such but pound rocks has our society really stooped this low erik velapold if people start forcing others to take responsibility for their actions things like this wouldn happen untill we stop blaming outside causes and start blaming the criminals we will continue to let things like this happen chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu neil peart quick to judge quick to anger slow to understand ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech concert uvaarpa murdoch faraday clas virginia edu rmt6r from rmt6r faraday clas virginia edu roy matthew thigpen subject viper message id c5jnha ib murdoch acc virginia edu sender usenet murdoch acc virginia edu organization university of virginia date thu apr gmt lines last night had dream that my dad bought viper took it out for test drive without his knowledge and had to push it all the way home just to avoid ticket wierd dream wonder what it means roy xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech alt autos antique rec autos antique path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu miller cs uwm edu syck5280 from syck5280 miller cs uwm edu steven syck newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech alt autos antique rec autos antique subject re warning please read message id qkqdqinnjfk uwm edu date apr gmt article uwm qkqdqinnjfk references apr15 virginia edu c5jcpa ptt austin ibm com neilson apr15135919 seoul mpr ca organization university of wisconsin milwaukee lines nntp posting host in article neilson apr15135919 seoul mpr ca neilson seoul mpr ca robert neilson writes sorry for the auto content but that is why low abiding citizens should have the power to protect themselves and their property using deadly force if necessary anywhere threat is imminent steve heracleous you do have the power steve you can do it why don you why don you go shoot some kids who are tossing rocks onto cars make sure you do good job though don miss cause like they have big rocks and take it from me those kids are mean as stong self defense advocate you re statement does littel but irk me of course shooting someone because they throw rock at your car is out of the question but what if they disabled your car with their rock and then wanted to come kill rape rob beat or otherwise harm you your wife kids think you would like the power to defend yourself in this situation wouldn you or is it that you value the lives of such rock throwers more than your own or those of your family don think it couldn happen to you from the sounds of it here it has happened to few people please do not misunderstand the only justification for using deadly force on someone is that if you don it will mean your own death or grave bodily harm am far far away from supporting vilante justice or anything like that oh and if you mean to be funny please add the appropriate followups to talk politics guns please we re getting bit off track here steve syck syck5280 miller cs uwm edu xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech alt autos antique rec autos antique path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net agate ames sun barr news2me ebay sun com jethro corp sun com vavau barnesm from barnesm sun com mark barnes sunsoft newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech alt autos antique rec autos antique subject re warning please read date apr gmt organization sun microsystems inc lines distribution world message id qkig9 mom jethro corp sun com references qke5b mc4 spool mu edu reply to barnesm sun com nntp posting host vavau corp sun com and in san francisco recently some of our finest examples of humanity poured oil over road so that vehicles going uphill would suddnely become immobile and then they would walk right up to the vehicles and make their demands known mark barnes system engineer insert standard disclaimers here sunsoft corporate technical escalations speak for myself an individual menlo park ca usa not for the company for which work barnesm vavau corp sun com newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net newsserver jvnc net nj nec com syl behanna from behanna syl nj nec com chris behanna subject re auto air conditioning without freon message id apr15 research nj nec com sender news research nj nec com organization nec systems laboratory inc references apr14 ns1 cc lehigh edu date thu apr gmt lines in article apr14 ns1 cc lehigh edu amh2 ns1 cc lehigh edu alois himsl writes yes have the same questions what makes me upset is that r12 costs are skyrocketing and in fact can be bought anymore in my area also this is yet another way mechanics and dealers can rip off customers also was reading that the new refrigerant is not compatible with the r12 system and that it would cost upto to retrofit car with the old r12 system although it is important to consider the environment think the sudden ban is slap in the face for the consumer why is it that the consumer should have to pay for the retrofit the auto companies should have seen this coming also why is it that the governments of the world were so quick in banning freon use and yet so slow in banning gasoline in my opinion gasoline is just as hazardous as anything else why can they start proposing bans on this and switch to natural gas or electric the technology is there hopefully some chemist will come up with another alternative coolant that will be compatible with the old system al several chemists already have come up with several substitutes for r12 you don hear about them because the mobile air conditioning society macs that is the people who stand to rake in that to per retrofit per automobile have mounted an organized campaign to squash those r12 substitutes out of existence if not ban them altogether on very shaky technical grounds at best on outright lies at worst does this piss you off yes write letter to your congressman to your senator to the president to the epa and to the dot and complain later chris behanna dod fxwg wide glide jubilee red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb360t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs name agree with any of this anyway was raised by pack of wild corn dogs newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net newsserver jvnc net nj nec com syl behanna from behanna syl nj nec com chris behanna subject re carb cleaners do they work performance carb rebuild message id apr15 research nj nec com sender news research nj nec com organization nec systems laboratory inc references c5fyt4 jby cpsc ucalgary ca apr15 slcs slb com date thu apr gmt lines in article apr15 slcs slb com dcd se houston geoquest slb com dan day writes in article c5fyt4 jby cpsc ucalgary ca schaffer cpsc ucalgary ca doug schaffer writes how hard is carb rebuild for moderately experienced backyard mechanic ve done my clutch and miscellaneous little engine fixes the hardest part is usually getting the darned thing off the intake manifold rebuilding carb is fun if you re into things with lots of little parts used to rebuild them for all my friends cars in high school so it doesn take phd buy carb rebuilding kit from an auto supply store buy gallon of the best carb cleaning solvent you can find do they still make tyme as rule of thumb buy the one with the scariest warning labels put it into metal bucket make yourself dipping can by punching holes in the bottom of coffee can and attaching wire handle to it if the carb cleaner doesn strip the paint right off the coffee can you re not using the right stuff use the can to soak the little stuff and just hang the big parts from coat hanger wash them off with garden hose wipe off excess water with paper towels and air dry then remember where all the little parts go follow the rebuild kit instructions concerning float height choke tension etc bolt it back on the engine and admire the super clean carb on the filthy engine heed this man warnings if you get carb cleaner this strong on your hands your hands will be eaten away not pretty hence the dipping can method later chris behanna dod fxwg wide glide jubilee red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb360t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs name agree with any of this anyway was raised by pack of wild corn dogs xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu darwin sura net mlb semi harris com rtfm mlb fl us gwalker from gwalker rtfm mlb fl us grayson walker subject re changing oil by self message id apr15 rtfm mlb fl us sender grayson walker organization references apr14 lmpsbbs co apr15 magnus acs ohio state edu apr15 dsd es com distribution usa date thu apr gmt lines why crawl under the car at all have machine got for my boat that pulls the oil out under suction through the dip stick tube it does an excellent job and by moving the suction tube around you can get more old oil out than by using the drain plug think paid at marine the oil goes into steel gal can wait until it cools and decant into your favorite device use soft drink bottles easy to take them down to the local oil recycle center forza newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet news claremont edu ucivax moe garyl from garyl moe corollary com gary lorman subject re electronic odometers was used bmw question organization corollary inc date thu apr gmt message id apr15 moe corollary com references apr14 porthos cc bellcore com conradie firga sun ac za dirac physics purdue edu lines in article dirac physics purdue edu lovall bohr physics purdue edu daniel lovall writes in article conradie firga sun ac za conradie firga sun ac za gerrit conradie writes however if were to design bmw electronics will use counter to count the number of times the car passed million miles or whatever and store it in the car computer memory this could be read when doing diagnostics test ditto for the date of the odometer as easy as this is don know why manafucturers don do it don they to prevent illegal odometer tampering but as previous writer said it will in any case take aeons to reset an odometer mechanic or electronic by simulating driving car it will be easier to reprogram it how don know it shouldn be that hard if you know much about digital electronics if the counter is made with standard ttl chips all you should need to do is find the chip used for counting figure out what mileage you want to put in and preset it but wiring the preset pins directly to low high you also have to know what the conventions are for low and high it might be little more involved than this but it shouldn be beyond someone with bsee or bs eet all the display does is convert what the counter chips say into digits using translation table stored in rom selah dan but those chips are probably inside custom chip to make it smaller and use less power and the preset data pins are not going to be available it would probably not be ttl but might be cmos wider operating voltage range not that the tecnology would make much difference plus the custom chip would probably be potted encapsulated with epoxy good luck garyl any shark that gets to be or feet long with big teeth can be considered dangerous shark bowl newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet destroyer cs ubc ca uw beaver fluke cracker from cracker tc fluke com don graham subject re jeep wrangler opini message id apr15 tc fluke com organization john fluke mfg co inc everett wa references c5hltg db vu vlsi ee vill edu qht5einnjdf hp col col hp com date thu apr gmt lines in article qht5einnjdf hp col col hp com tvervaek col hp com tom vervaeke writes have had two wranglers and still have the second right now it wrangler base model with the big engine hard top no power steering or air conditioning runs like top has about on it has never been in the shop can change my own oil nice tall vehicle can lube it myself fittings occasionally take it to jiffy lube to check the differentials and do the oil change there my previous wrangler had nary problem either here in colorado there more jeeps than bmw mercedes volvos and the like together in fact jeep has been called the colorado car for while they hold their value well and are very easy to resell mine cost right around new of course didn blow money on an islander sahara or renegade which have wrangler sahara and paid new including the rebate are just wranglers with fancy inside stuff after driving cj for years that fancy stuff is pretty nice the cars are primitive ride like dump truck etc but if you live in an area that gets around of snow per winter you have one too they ll go anywhere with winch and are easy to get parts for the like my wrangler but when doing some serious off roading it can keep up with cj because of ground clearance and limited suspension travel do have winch and would like to get an arb air locker in the future engine puts out hp and gets around mpg not bad love the just my experience sure there are bad ones out there but that goes for any make and model don graham newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu cactus org boyle from boyle cactus org craig boyle subject re too fast message id apr15 cactus org organization capital area central texas unix society austin tx references qh61m b6l armory centerline com unisql uucp qkon8 re armory centerline com date thu apr gmt lines in article qkon8 re armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes stuff about autobahn and safety of sho at speed deleted the mustang is essentially the same deal as the sho big power the mustang is much worse case of design irresponsibility than the sho plant stuck in mid size sedan with almost no other modifications have real life experience with the mustang it handles like brick except when you re invoking oversteer of course something its hard to predicatbaly drift stock mustang because of the suspension personally avoid doing on the highway and stopping power is inadequate even from mph lots of accelleration but the rest of the car is not up to par yes when think mustang think school bus f16 motor in my mind the mustang should be fitted with speed limiter at or so it just isn safe check out your local junkyard mustangs outnumber other cars by proportion way in excess of sales in junkyards find it astonishing the cu or somesuchlike has not jumped on the mustang for poor brakes in relation to power ford should at least standardize on the svo rear brakes for all picked the porsche example because they are designed with speed in mind it didn have to be the it could have been the much cheaper or one of several mercedes or audi models all of these cars are fairly expensive but so are the parts that make them drivable at high speed this should be elementary there are few things to keep in mind about europe since you brought it up my autobahn knowledge is admittedly second hand but believe the following to be true drivers are much better disciplined in europe than they are here true of northern europe latin countries are something else the roads comprising the autobahn are much better designed than kindof true remember they were build by adolf in the they are here and usually include animal fences this makes them far more predictable than most us highways yes not all of europe is the autobahn most places in europe have autobahn is the german word for freeway other countries have different names for loose equivalents autostrada autoroute motorway etc speed limits that aren out of line with what we used to have in the us if my friends weren lying to me they re typically not much higher than km europe did seem on the brink of kmh limit it hasn passed as far as know typical speeds in western europe are much higher than the us law enforcement is negligible in my experience comapred to the us as there is no revenue enhancement motivation the things you really notice are the higher speed differentials and the more professional attitude to driving you just never see two cars running parallel at mph oblivious to all around them strongly suspect you won find lot of rabbit owners doing mph nearly km on the autobahn but could be wrong some people you re wrong gti go this fast just kind of noisy not the ideal autobahn car lot of times you see cars being driven with the drivers foot on the floor how do know when you re not making any ground on the identical car in front of you have no respect for their own lives if something happens at you re dead but the same goes for much over driving at high speed forces you to concentrate feel much safer driving on the autobahn than in typical us traffic because most people seem to be awake ve never seen any driver reading book on an autobahn see it all too often in the us craig it just doesn seem fast after minutes or so of aclimation everybody drives that fast no big deal craig you certainly haven convinced me of course not speeding is bad speeding is illegal will not speed love big brother you had your mind made up already if you think so you sure don pay attention to my postings jim frost jimf centerline com newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet indetech cirrus srihari from srihari cirrus com srihari shoroff subject re instead of saturn sc2 what message id apr15 cirrus com sender news cirrus com organization cirrus logic inc references c584rg gi5 mccc edu apr10 wuecl wustl edu c5c59a mlp mccc edu apr13 wuecl wustl edu ifn spo00iv18 a8nz andrew cmu edu distribution na date thu apr gmt lines in ifn spo00iv18 a8nz andrew cmu edu jr4q andrew cmu edu jason roth writes had an article on cars of the sc1 ilk and they liked the civic ex the escort gt and the mx best of all and the sc1 was way down the list except for braking just looked at that article first of all this summary is inaccurate of cars the sc1 was th right behind these mentioned and the suzuki swift as has been pointed out it was semi silly comparison the saturn was at least cheaper than the mx and escort admittedly negligible but an issue and less than the honda the stated goal was base under the honda was over while the sc2 at the same price was excluded in other words they let the best honda play but not the best saturn note that the saturn did beat the dont know about the car comparison but as far as the price goes rest assured that the street prices for the mx and escort and maybe even the honda will be lesser than that of the saturn you re talking about all price comparisons ve seen are based on msrp and of course the saturn dealer will sell the car for sticker price whereas the others will do it way below sticker srihari xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech alt autos antique rec autos antique newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech alt autos antique rec autos antique path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet bcstec neil from neil bcstec ca boeing com neil williams subject re warning please read message id c5joit e31 bcstec ca boeing com keywords brick truck danger organization boeing computer services references qh336innfl5 cs utk edu date thu apr gmt lines larose austin cs utk edu brian larose writes this just warning to everybody on the net watch out for folks standing next to the road or on overpasses they can cause serious harm to you and your car just cliff notes version of my story follows pm last night was travelling on the interstate here in knoxville was taking an offramp exit to another interstate and my wife suddenly screamed and something large hit the side of my truck we slowed down but after looking back to see the vandals standing there we drove on to the police station she did get good look at the guy and saw him cock his arm with something the size of cinderblock but never saw him we are very lucky the truck sits up high on the road if it would have hit her window it would have killed her the police are looking for the guy but in all likelyhood he is gone am very good driver knock on wood but it was night time and never saw the guy the police said they thought the motive was to hit the car have us stop to check out the damage and then jump us and take the truck please be aware of folks and for your own good please don stop peace brian larose larose cs utk edu essary rd knoxville tn as long as we re on the subject several years ago myself and two others were riding in the front of toyota pickup heading south on interstate north of seattle wa someone threw rock of an overpass and hit our windshield not by accident sure it was impossible to get up to the overpass quickly to see who did it we figured it was kids reported it and left couple of years ago it happend again and killed guy at my company he was in his mid fourties and left behind wife and children turned out there was reformatory for juviniles few blocks away they caught the year old that did it they put cover over the overpass what else could they do don think ll over forget this story neil williams boeing computer services bellevue wa newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet bcstec voodoo ca boeing com toml from toml miles ca boeing com tom locke subject subaru svx good deal message id apr15 voodoo ca boeing com sender news voodoo ca boeing com usenet news system organization bogart graphics development date thu apr gmt lines hi netters my friend is seriously thinking of getting the subaru svx there is local dealer here in seattle selling them for with touring package that off from msrp he thinks it very good deal and think so too since he knows have access to the net he would like to get anyone opinion about this car especially in the area of reliability and maintenanability please send mail to me as my friend doesn have access to the net my opinion about this car is you get lot for auto everything tranny climate control windows locks folddow rear seet full wheel drive fast top spped heavy lb thanks in advacne tom locke work boeing computer services mail toml voodoo boeing com box or uunet bcstec voodoo toml seattle wa path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu usenet coe montana edu news washington edu stalfos eliot from eliot stalfos engr washington edu eliot newsgroups rec autos subject re open letter to nissan really station wagon date apr gmt organization clearer than blir lines distribution na message id apr16 engr washington edu references qideqinnl79 sumax seattleu edu kimata convex convex com apr15 walter bellcore com nntp posting host this week autoweek talks about how wagons are getting back in vogue wouldn mind an audi s4 wagon great stealth value but you ll never catch me dead in minivan eliot xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech alt autos antique rec autos antique newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech alt autos antique rec autos antique path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu geraldo cc utexas edu slcs slb com dcd from dcd se houston geoquest slb com dan day subject re warning please read message id apr15 slcs slb com sender news slcs slb com news administrator nntp posting host mudd se houston geoquest slb com organization geoquest system inc houston references apr15 virginia edu apr15 cbnewse cb att com qke5b mc4 spool mu edu date thu apr gmt lines in article qke5b mc4 spool mu edu jason studsys mscs mu edu jason hanson writes from article apr15 virginia edu by ejv2j virginia edu erik velapoldi this happened about year ago on the washington dc beltway snot nosed drunken kids decided it would be really cool to throw huge rocks down on cars from an overpass four or five cars were hit there were several serious injuries and sadly about year ago some kids tossed rock off an overpass on near eau claire wisconsin and it killed the driver below believe he was schoolteacher from minnesota here in houston couple years ago young pregnant woman was killed in similar manner newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu geraldo cc utexas edu slcs slb com dcd from dcd se houston geoquest slb com dan day subject re car buying story was christ another dealer service scam message id apr15 slcs slb com sender news slcs slb com news administrator nntp posting host mudd se houston geoquest slb com organization geoquest system inc houston references qhs7dinnj2b hp col col hp com apr15 newsgate sps mot com distribution usa date thu apr gmt lines in article apr15 newsgate sps mot com rapw20 email sps mot com writes their problem wasn giving them any more money the finance guy then brought in the manager on duty who proceeded to give me hard time reminded him that was the customer and didn think should be treated like that and that if he didn back off he could forget the whole deal he made some smart remark so told him where he could stick it snatched back my check and left needless to say they were not pleased by the turn of events that nothing when friend of mine went shopping for small sedan few years ago she brought me along as token male so the salespeople wouldn give her the bimbo treatment her first choice was mazda and second choice was nissan sentra we went to mazda dealership and described what we wanted we started negotiating on the price and the salesdroid kept playing the let me run this price by the sales manager after playing the good salesman bad salesman game we finally told him that if he didn have the authority to negotiate price perhaps we should be speaking directly to someone who did he brought in the sales manager who proceeded to dick us around with every trick in the book read remar sutton don get taken every time for list finally after playing few more rounds of you ll have to work with us on this price also known as each time you come up thousand dollars we ll come down ten the salesmanager gave signal to his two sales cronies stood up and said well we can come down any more so guess we can help you and they trouped out of the room leaving us sitting in the salesman office all by ourselves hmm read that sleazy salesmen sometimes bug their own offices so they can leave and listen in on couples discussing the sales offer and mentioned this aloud to my friend while we were sitting there wondering why they would leave us in the office instead of showing us to the door for lack of anything better to do picked up the phone on the desk and called another mazda dealership asked for salesman and began discussing what kind of price they would consider few sentences into the conversation mr salesmanager broke into the line and began telling me how rude he thought it was that would call another dealership from his phone said that since he announced that our business was over he shouldn care and every time tried to talk to the other sales guy the sales manager would drown out our voices with his own how did he know that was using the phone anyway finally hung up and we headed out of the showroom sales manager and cronies come out of little unmarked room and he begins to berate us again we say that we won bother him anymore we re going next door to the nissan dealership then comes the part wish could have videotaped as we go out the front door the sales manager shouts across the entire showroom customers and all go ahead you deserve to buy nissan so my friend bought sentra just so the guilty won go unpunished ll mention that the sales manager name was gary tusone from his manner his refusal to come down to reasonable price and his anger at the end my guess is that he had bet our original salesman who was young novice that he be able to get at least dollars out of us and he was steamed that we wouldn fall for his slimy tricks path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov ames sun barr west west sun com news2me ebay sun com jethro corp sun com vavau barnesm from barnesm sun com mark barnes sunsoft newsgroups rec autos subject re lh workmanship date apr gmt organization sun microsystems inc lines distribution world message id qkt7c mom jethro corp sun com references apr15 walter bellcore com reply to barnesm sun com nntp posting host vavau corp sun com was following an example of the lh the other day and noticed the fit between the tunk lid and the rear bumper the gap was quite small on the left side but much larger on the right blech mark newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu darwin sura net cos cos bob1 from bob1 cos com bob blackshaw subject re too fast message id bob1 cos organization corporation for open systems references unisql uucp qfvco on usenet ins cwru edu qg19v ju umcc umcc umich edu apr14 cactus org distribution world date thu apr gmt lines in apr14 cactus org boyle cactus org craig boyle writes in article qg19v ju umcc umcc umich edu mhartman umcc umcc umich edu mark hartman writes don know why you are complaining about alot of us have cars that can easily top that most that go are built to do it also and can handle the speed why complain and just join in on the fast fun can ask have any of you been at the speed of its rush driving in straight line is fine you very soon become aclimated to it it only rush when there are corners that you don think you can make on clear autobahn is nothing in the of people and all judges would label you insane and it is difficult to persuade people otherwise sure but the surface condition of most good autobahns is far better than most of the roads here dip in the asphalt that you test your shocks on at will kill you at don get me wrong love to drive quickly and they say my probe will do but that more than ve ever tried in it cause there isn decent enough piece of road hereabouts craig mark hartman mhartman umcc umcc umich edu kalamazoo mi bk405 cleveland freenet edu naked in the school sleepyhead bob xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos misc wanted newsgroups rec autos misc wanted path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu ux1 cso uiuc edu bradley bradley edu camelot wanderer from wanderer camelot bradley edu kevin murphy subject old license plates wanted message id wanderer camelot sender news bradley bradley edu nntp posting host camelot bradley edu organization bradley university date apr gmt lines hi me and my roomate are going to redecorate the living room and we thought it would be cool idea to have license plate from every state in the us and then from whereever else we could find like canada mexixo even some european ones if anyone has any ideas or knows someone that could help us out please let me know the more recent the better but anything would be nice either that or if you have an old plate hanging around hint hint kev wanderer camelot bradley edu kevin murphy west main street peoria il path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl waikato ac nz aukuni ac nz kcbbs nezsdc derek newsgroups rec autos subject re mgbs and the real world message id apr15 nezsdc icl co nz from derek nezsdc icl co nz derek tearne date thu apr gmt references apr6 cactus org c54skq kgl news cso uiuc edu apr8 hasler ascom ch organization fujitsu new zealand software development center lines in article apr8 hasler ascom ch kevinh hasler ascom ch writes oh yeah had gt mini and even before did anything to it it could leave an mgb standing anywhere except perhaps on long straight motorway run at people who bought mgb bought them because they were an open topped sportscar and embodied what people thought they should for an old fashioned traditional brit sportscar not because they were great at anything pretty much like the people who buy the mazda mx miata today small fun and you can fool yourself and lot of other people that you have the performance of many far superior and much more expensive performnace cars derek tearne derek nezsdc icl co nz fujitsu new zealand some of the more aware dinosaurs were worried about the environmental consequences of an accident with the new iridium enriched fusion reactor if it goes off only the cockroaches and mammals will survive they said newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech news feed peachnet edu darwin sura net cos cos bob1 from bob1 cos com bob blackshaw subject re dumbest driver action message id bob1 cos organization corporation for open systems references sjm1 isis msstate edu c58gqd m7u usenet ucs indiana edu c58hq2 mf5 news cso uiuc edu c58mfj news cso uiuc edu qc07v pr armory centerline com c5dq2n ub news cso uiuc edu distribution usa date thu apr gmt lines in c5dq2n ub news cso uiuc edu mwbg9715 uxa cso uiuc edu mark wayne blunier writes jimf centerline com jim frost writes wish had the figures with me to back me up but recall statistics showing that women tended to have more accidents than men but the damage was generally quite minor men had fewer but far more expensive accidents the rate of total vehicle destruction was significantly higher for men than women particularly in the younger male age groups imho social considerations are probably the strongest influence here possibly more so than any difference between the sexes social influences often affect the type of car that bought and the situations the car is used in and the type of car and driving situations have major effect on accident risk thus if society expects you to buy mustang and race it on the street you re more likely to do it and our society expects that of males more than females agree with some of your social influences such as driving conditions but lets get real here guys don drag race becuase there expected too we do it becuase its fun and we find out whose car is faster guys drive different than women becuase there men when driver is driving unusually can usually figure out if it is male or female driver without looking at the driver social influences may give person more reason to buy vehicle that has certain amount of character which he or she would like associated with do you change your driving habits when no one is around sheesh don know what kind of women they have where you guys live but there are some ladies here who will blow your doors off or at least they will try to but we just can let the youngsters get too uppity with us old folks my mark jim frost jimf centerline com bob path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu tamsun tamu edu tamuts dlb5404 from dlb5404 tamuts tamu edu daryl biberdorf newsgroups rec autos subject re lh workmanship date apr gmt organization texas university college station lines message id ql178inn51q tamsun tamu edu references apr15 walter bellcore com nntp posting host tamuts tamu edu in article apr15 walter bellcore com jchen ctt bellcore com writes just visited the ny auto show and saw two lh cars on the floor eagle vision and dodge intrepid at competitive price unfortunately the workmanship is quite disappointing on both cars the rubber seals around the window and door fell off it turns out the seals are just big grooved rubber band it goes on just by pressing through single data point you can draw any line you want dr bart childs professor texas dept of computer science both my pastor late model corolla and my father stanza have demonstrated the falling door seals problem daryl biberdorf n5gjm biberdorf tamu edu sola gratia sola fide sola scriptura path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu sol ctr columbia edu hamblin math byu edu yvax byu edu byuvm libemc newsgroups rec autos subject honda civic message id libemc byuvm bitnet from libemc byuvm bitnet date thursday apr mdt organization brigham young university lines like to converse with anyone who has purchased honda civic about their experience new to the car buying game and would like to know what price can expect to pay for sedan after bargaining thanks in advance ellen newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc sdd hp com sgiblab daver cypress com wl from wl cypress com wilbur luo comm subject heard of these south bay shops message id apr15 cypress com originator wl coast sender news cypress com nntp posting host coast organization cypress semiconductor distribution ba date thu apr gmt lines need to bring on my vw corrado for body work got hit was wondering if anyone has heard of any of these south bay body shops akins collision center of santa clara on reed st auto west collision in san jose los gatos acura royal auto body in sunnyvale thanks newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net bogus sura net udel news intercon com psinntp megatest mithril alung from alung megatest com aaron lung subject re changing oil by self rist another dealer service scam message id c5juvz lfv megatest com organization megatest corporation references apr14 lmpsbbs co apr15 qk5m9 pbe news ysu edu date fri apr gmt lines in article qk5m9 pbe news ysu edu ak296 yfn ysu edu john daker writes was worried about someone stealing my oil once also finally decided to just have my drain plug welded shut it works great figure that when add three or four quarts when the oil light comes on every month or so that it just as good or better than the old wives tale of changing the oil and filter every miles works for me must say did the same thing to my drain plug for the same reasons was wondering how you filled your crankcase though as welded my hood shut also out of fear that somebody might steal my air filter oh come on silly all you have to do is cut hole in your hood and put tube there so you can get to the oil fill hole what do you think all those big air intake things are for on those hot rod cars they re just for looks only little does anyone know they provide access to the oil fill hole well over where we live we have problems with vandals stealing people wheels those locking nuts didn stop them so to be safe and sure welded the lug nuts to my wheels together it works serious haven had my wheels stolen yet xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech alt autos antique rec autos antique newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech alt autos antique rec autos antique path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu sal wisc edu zimmer news from gregl zimmer csufresno edu greg lewis subject re warning please read message id c5jxvv mg3 zimmer csufresno edu keywords brick truck danger sender news zimmer csufresno edu nntp posting host zimmer csufresno edu organization csu fresno references qh336innfl5 cs utk edu date fri apr gmt lines in article qh336innfl5 cs utk edu larose austin cs utk edu brian larose writes this just warning to everybody on the net watch out for folks standing next to the road or on overpasses they can cause serious harm to you and your car just cliff notes version of my story follows pm last night was travelling on the interstate here in knoxville was taking an offramp exit to another interstate and my wife suddenly screamed and something large hit the side of my truck we slowed down but after looking back to see the vandals standing there we drove on to the police station she did get good look at the guy and saw him cock his arm with something the size of cinderblock but never saw him we are very lucky the truck sits up high on the road if it would have hit her window it would have killed her the police are looking for the guy but in all likelyhood he is gone stuff deleted am sorry to report that in southern california it was sick sport for while to drop concrete blocks from the overpasses onto the freeway several persons were killed when said blocks came through their windshields many overpass bridges are now fenced and they have made it illegal to loiter on such bridges as if that would stop such people yet many bridges are not fenced always look up at bridge while still have time to take evasive action even though this sport has not reached us here in fresno greg lewis csufresno edu photojournalism sequence department of journalism csu fresno fresno ca path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu msuinfo uchinews att out att att drutx druwa klf from klf druwa att com franklinkl newsgroups rec autos subject re dumbest automotive concepts of all time summary continental the first don think so message id drutx att com date apr gmt references apr6 cbnewsj cb att com c5hhgm rm constellation ecn uoknor edu sender news drutx att com distribution na lines in article c5hhgm rm constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james callison writes in article apr13 slcs slb com dcd se houston geoquest slb com dan day writes in article q4466innb85 ctron news ctron com smith ctron com writes it big aftermarket business almost no cars come from the factory with vynal any more and any fake convertible job definitely came from some aftermarket place what amazes me is how much people are willing to pay for bad taste how about those really ugly fake wheel compartments stuck onto the trunk or side or both sides of some tacky luxury cars some of em aren fake if you re talking about the continental kit named after the lincoln continental the first car to sport one personally would love to have bird with continental kit and the supercharged that is one of the most beautiful cars ever built imho james the continental may have been the first modern era auto to mount the spare on the rear of the car but it was hardly the first car to sport one various mounting techniques for rear mounting the spare were quite common in early automobiles both us and foreign ken franklin they say there heaven for people who wait ama and some say it better but say it ain gwrra rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints dod the sinners are lots more fun know only the good die young newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu hellgate utah edu fcom cc utah edu uuserv cc utah edu steve dunham from steve dunham uuserv cc utah edu steve lee dunham subject re car buying story was christ another dealer service scam message id steve dunham uuserv cc utah edu lines sender news fcom cc utah edu organization the university of utah references qhs7dinnj2b hp col col hp com apr15 newsgate sps mot com distribution usa date fri apr gmt while not exactly service incident had similar experience recently when bought new truck had picked out the vehicle wanted and after little haggling we agreed on price wrote them check for the down payment plus tax and license and told them be back that evening to pick up the truck when returned had to wait about an hour before the finance guy could get to me when finally got in there everything went smoothly until he started adding up the numbers he then discovered that they had miscalculated the tax license by about this seems to be popular scam with dealers last month my brother bought new audi series quatro from local dealer they came back with the final price tax and all and he added it up for himself there happened to be an extra tagged on under the tax part he pointed out their error and asked them to re think their addition they came back with the right price the next time path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net agate dog ee lbl gov network ucsd edu sdcc12 sdcc5 cs173sbw from cs173sbw sdcc5 ucsd edu cs173sbw newsgroups rec autos subject re how is cizeta v16t doing message id sdcc12 ucsd edu date apr gmt sender news sdcc12 ucsd edu lines nntp posting host sdcc5 ucsd edu in article crh regent technik tu muenchen de crh regent technik tu muenchen dbp de christian huebner writes can remember reading track competition in some car magazine which featured the testarossa the diablo and the v16t the result was about the same would have expected the cizeta was not only the slowest of the three but also dropped out halfway during it test laps because of smoking brakes for sportscar it showed ridiculous performance hm find this hard to believe v16t weights about the same as the red head but it has hell lot more horse power perhaps it due to pre production glitches well to me it still got the most imposing styling among all the sports cars have seen bye chris crh regent technik tu muenchen de ferrari f40 best sportscar ever built personally don like cars that rely on turbo power guess everyone has their favorite car path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet utcsri eecg toronto edu rkim newsgroups rec autos from rkim eecg toronto edu ryan kim subject new break pads exhausts after km mi on maxima message id apr16 jarvis csri toronto edu organization csri university of toronto date apr gmt lines hi maybe someone can help me here am looking to buy this nissan maxima gxe for cdn right now the car has km or about miles on it typical mileage for cars seem to be about km or about mi the seller just informed me that when he brought the car in for certification he was told that the front break pads and the exhausts had to be replaced to meet the legal standards he said he will replace the components before selling the car to me being copmletely ignorant to the technical stuff on cars don know what this could mean is km about the time typical for replacing the above mentioned items or is this an indication that the car was abused would other things break down or have to be replaced soon the seller told me that he used the car on the highway lot but don know how to verify this ve seen the paint chipped away in tiny dots in the front edge of the hood though although the maxima is an excellent car and the car is very clean and well kept it currently out of warranty similarly priced accord with km will have years or km worth of warranty left and don want to worry about paying for any repair bills but also need car for people when will the new maxima come out by the way would very much appreciate your input in this please reply by mail preferred or post in this newsgroup thanks ryan ryan kim university of toronto eecg computer graphics rkim eecg toronto edu do not weave between traffic cones at road works from the new british highway code toronto star april newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu news cso uiuc edu uxa cso uiuc edu cka52397 from cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc subject re instead of saturn sc2 what date fri apr gmt message id c5k7s2 wd news cso uiuc edu distribution na references c584rg gi5 mccc edu apr10 wuecl wustl edu c5c59a mlp mccc edu apr13 wuecl wustl edu ifn spo00iv18 a8nz andrew cmu edu apr15 cirrus com sender usenet news cso uiuc edu net noise owner organization university of illinois at urbana lines srihari cirrus com srihari shoroff writes in ifn spo00iv18 a8nz andrew cmu edu jr4q andrew cmu edu jason roth writes had an article on cars of the sc1 ilk and they liked the civic ex the escort gt and the mx best of all and the sc1 was way down the list except for braking just looked at that article first of all this summary is inaccurate of cars the sc1 was th right behind these mentioned and the suzuki swift as has been pointed out it was semi silly comparison the saturn was at least cheaper than the mx and escort admittedly negligible but an issue and less than the honda the stated goal was base under the honda was over while the sc2 at the same price was excluded in other words they let the best honda play but not the best saturn note that the saturn did beat the dont know about the car comparison but as far as the price goes rest assured that the street prices for the mx and escort and maybe even the honda will be lesser than that of the saturn you re talking about all price comparisons ve seen are based on msrp and of course the saturn dealer will sell the car for sticker price whereas the others will do it way below sticker srihari hate to rehash an old thread but would someone kindly quote prices that dealer quotes for civic ex and escort gt also assuming that the mx was the so go ahead and look that up too if someone has one of those yearly buyers guides that give low quote price please quote them too then find the the sc1 base price thanks chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu neil peart quick to judge quick to anger slow to understand ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet walter wind jchen from jchen wind bellcore com jason chen subject re lh workmanship message id apr16 walter bellcore com sender news walter bellcore com nntp posting host wind bellcore com organization bellcore references apr15 walter bellcore com ql178inn51q tamsun tamu edu date fri apr gmt lines in article ql178inn51q tamsun tamu edu dlb5404 tamuts tamu edu daryl biberdorf writes in article apr15 walter bellcore com jchen ctt bellcore com writes just visited the ny auto show and saw two lh cars on the floor eagle vision and dodge intrepid at competitive price unfortunately the workmanship is quite disappointing on both cars the rubber seals around the window and door fell off it turns out the seals are just big grooved rubber band it goes on just by pressing through single data point you can draw any line you want dr bart childs professor texas dept of computer science wrong got two points which were the sample space on the show floor by the previous quote guess may drow determinstic line both my pastor late model corolla and my father stanza have demonstrated the falling door seals problem as unfair as it may seem the difference between chrysler and toyota is that chrysler needs to prove that it can build quality cars toyota can afford make few small mistakes without hurting the image after all door seal failing on year old stanza is not comparable to the same problem on brand new intreprid jason chen newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu agate headwall stanford edu nntp stanford edu tedebear from tedebear leland stanford edu theodore chen subject re open letter to nissan really station wagon message id apr16 leland stanford edu sender news leland stanford edu mr news organization dsg stanford university ca usa references kimata convex convex com apr15 walter bellcore com apr16 engr washington edu distribution na date fri apr gmt lines in article apr16 engr washington edu eliot stalfos engr washington edu eliot writes this week autoweek talks about how wagons are getting back in vogue wouldn mind an audi s4 wagon great stealth value but you ll never catch me dead in minivan even minivan based on viper running gear teddy think the audi s4 gets liter next year newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu moe ksu ksu edu osuunx ucc okstate edu constellation uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison from callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james callison subject re do trains busses have radar sender usenet constellation ecn uoknor edu usenet administrator message id c5k8nu zg constellation ecn uoknor edu date fri apr gmt references apr13 usho72 hou281 chevron com c5fqfy fpq usenet ucs indiana edu apr15 bronco fnal gov nntp posting host uokmax ecn uoknor edu organization engineering computer network university of oklahoma norman ok usa lines in article apr15 bronco fnal gov colombo bronco fnal gov rick open vms ever colombo writes don know about trains but ve saw sign on the back of greyhound bus that warns you that your radar detector may be set off it doesn explain why but it does set off my radar detector because greyhound has apparently gotten around to installing their radar collision prevention system they use radar to monitor how close other vehicles are and how fast their relative speeds are and signals warning to the driver if they re coming up on something too fast or are getting too close this is all remember from the news reports few months back at the time they were only talking about the possibility of installing the system they didn mention how it worked in bumper to bumper traffic or how it discriminated between camaro approaching at mph and ye olde bridge support in the median being approached at mph on curve do recall something about progressive stages of warnings from flashing lights to audible warnings ie it goes from red too close light to hysterically screaming we re all going to die james james callison microcomputer coordinator of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer not an engineer but play one at work the forecast calls for thunder bird sc it hell of thing killing man you take away all he has and all he ever gonna have will munny unforgiven path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net uunet munnari oz au uniwa scott from scott psy uwa oz au scott fisher newsgroups rec autos subject re mgbs and the real world date apr gmt organization the university of western australia lines message id qlg02 iu6 uniwa uwa oz au references apr6 cactus org c54skq kgl news cso uiuc edu apr8 hasler ascom ch apr15 nezsdc icl co nz nntp posting host wapsy psy uwa oz au derek nezsdc icl co nz derek tearne writes people who bought mgb bought them because they were an open topped sportscar and embodied what people thought they should for an old fashioned traditional brit sportscar not because they were great at anything pretty much like the people who buy the mazda mx miata today small fun and you can fool yourself and lot of other people that you have the performance of many far superior and much more expensive performnace cars have been for fairly hard run in an mx5 what they lack in power they surely make up for in handling great for back streets with heaps of corners they are fairly light car with low center of gravity and quite free revving dohc engine fun car have you driven turbo converted mx5 now they are starting to perform ve often thought mazda rotary would go well in the xm5 too anyone done it regards scott scott fisher scott psy uwa oz au ph aus perth local department of psychology university of western australia perth nedlands perth joy is jaguar xj6 with flat battery blown oil seal and an unsympathetic wife km outside of small remote town am on cold wet winters morning newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu moe ksu ksu edu osuunx ucc okstate edu constellation uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison from callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james callison subject re warning please read sender usenet constellation ecn uoknor edu usenet administrator message id c5k9m5 ku constellation ecn uoknor edu date fri apr gmt references apr15 virginia edu c5jcpa ptt austin ibm com apr15 icf hrb com nntp posting host uokmax ecn uoknor edu organization engineering computer network university of oklahoma norman ok usa lines in article apr15 icf hrb com jek icf hrb com joe karolchik writes deleted your name because don want to sound accusative in my remark on another occasion on my way from texas to florida had stopped in small motel for the night in small town somewhere in florida about youths were disturbing my car setting off the alarm and challenging me to come out when and another tenant walked out with magnum and automatic respectively they vanished needless to say immediately packed up and left watch out for car jacking and staged accidents they can be deadly not going to argue the issue of carrying weapons but would ask you if you would have thought seriously about shooting kid for setting off your alarm can think of worse things in the world glad you got out of there before they did anything to give you reason to fire your gun if hear someone screwing with my car ie setting off the alarm and taunting me to come out you can be damn sure that my colt delta elite will also be coming with me it not the screwing with the car that get them shot it the potential physical danger if they re taunting like that it very possible that they also intend to rob me and or do other physically harmful things if they re just screwing around no harm done if they re bent on mayhem they will receive the cure for their lead deficiency gr injection fps there no telling what today violent criminals will do death may be the most pleasant outcome james james callison microcomputer coordinator of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer not an engineer but play one at work the forecast calls for thunder bird sc it hell of thing killing man you take away all he has and all he ever gonna have will munny unforgiven newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu cs utexas edu cactus org boyle from boyle cactus org craig boyle subject re new break pads exhausts after km mi on maxima message id apr16 cactus org organization capital area central texas unix society austin tx references apr16 jarvis csri toronto edu date fri apr gmt lines in article apr16 jarvis csri toronto edu rkim eecg toronto edu ryan kim writes hi maybe someone can help me here am looking to buy this nissan maxima gxe for cdn right now so its an automatic don know if us spec cdn spec for maximas the car has km or about miles on it typical mileage for cars seem to be about km or about mi the seller just informed me that when he brought the car in for certification he was told that the front break pads and the exhausts had to be replaced to meet the legal standards he said he will replace the components before selling the car to me being copmletely ignorant to the technical stuff on cars don know what this could mean is km about the time typical for replacing the above mentioned items or is this an indication that the car was abused if it is the first set of brake pads on front then this is fine my car eats set every miles or so the fact that he is replacing the muffler too is also ok would other things break down or have to be replaced soon the mileage is fairly low but typical fwd stuff is cv joints check the maintenance records with the manufacturers requirements for valve adjustments timing belt changes and so on the mile service is often expensive so make sure he has done everything the seller told me that he used the car on the highway lot but don know how to verify this ve seen the paint chipped away in tiny dots in the front edge of the hood though well this is one of the commonly cited methods for identifying car with highway miles might check the gas pedal wear too ask him how many sets of tires he has been through highway car might have squeezed by on sets hard driven car sets although the maxima is an excellent car and the car is very clean and well kept it currently out of warranty similarly priced accord with km will have years or km worth of warranty left and don want to worry about paying for any repair bills well the maxima should be pretty reliable but if its out of warranty you should get it checked out by someone knowledgeable first stuff for japanese cars can be expensive but also need car for people when will the new maxima come out by the way model year believe would very much appreciate your input in this please reply by mail preferred or post in this newsgroup craig thanks ryan ryan kim university of toronto eecg computer graphics rkim eecg toronto edu do not weave between traffic cones at road works from the new british highway code toronto star april newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu moe ksu ksu edu osuunx ucc okstate edu constellation uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison from callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james callison subject re dumbest automotive concepts of all time sender usenet constellation ecn uoknor edu usenet administrator message id c5kabl constellation ecn uoknor edu date fri apr gmt references apr15 acs ucalgary ca c5jnk3 jkt news cso uiuc edu apr15 cactus org nntp posting host uokmax ecn uoknor edu organization engineering computer network university of oklahoma norman ok usa lines in article apr15 cactus org boyle cactus org craig boyle writes in article c5jnk3 jkt news cso uiuc edu cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes wasn the original intent of the reverse lights for the driver so he could see where he was backing up although reverse lights on the sides no reverse lights are to warn others that you are backing up they aren bright enough to typically see by without the brake and tail lights don know where you live but couldn get out of my driveway at night without reverse lights as someone said out in the country you notice neat little things like stars and the difference between day and night at night around my house which is amongst forest of rather tall oaks it is dark except for nights with full moons reverse lights illuminate my path very well when backing up greatly prefer cars with them to cars without operational reverse lights james james callison microcomputer coordinator of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer not an engineer but play one at work the forecast calls for thunder bird sc it hell of thing killing man you take away all he has and all he ever gonna have will munny unforgiven path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu csd4 csd uwm edu qazi from qazi csd4 csd uwm edu aamir hafeez qazi newsgroups rec autos subject re how is cizeta v16t doing date apr gmt organization university of wisconsin milwaukee lines message id qll32innp8v uwm edu references qil9rinnsoh phantom gatech edu reply to qazi csd4 csd uwm edu nntp posting host originator qazi csd4 csd uwm edu cs173sbw sdcc5 ucsd edu cs173sbw writes does anyone know what happpened to the venerable v16t has claudio done any enhancement to it are there any pictures of this beast can ftp down somewhere thanks better seen any rc model of this beauty autoweek had an article about the car within the past six weeks it was the issue with the diablo vt awd on the cover naturally don remember the date of the issue offhand but can check it if anyone is interested aamir qazi aamir qazi qazi csd4 csd uwm edu why should care rather watch drying paint path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester news crd ge com uunet spool mu edu uwm edu csd4 csd uwm edu qazi from qazi csd4 csd uwm edu aamir hafeez qazi newsgroups rec autos subject re bmw series for date apr gmt organization university of wisconsin milwaukee lines message id qll56innp9r uwm edu references eabu288 dialin33635 slip nts uci edu reply to qazi csd4 csd uwm edu nntp posting host originator qazi csd4 csd uwm edu from article eabu288 dialin33635 slip nts uci edu by eabu288 orion oac uci edu alvin is there going to be bmw in could be isn the liter six supposed to be enlarged to liters in the not too distant future aamir qazi aamir qazi qazi csd4 csd uwm edu why should care rather watch drying paint path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu csd4 csd uwm edu qazi from qazi csd4 csd uwm edu aamir hafeez qazi newsgroups rec autos subject re instead of saturn sc2 what date apr gmt organization university of wisconsin milwaukee lines distribution na message id qllfdinnpcr uwm edu references qkkl5innbvo hp col col hp com reply to qazi csd4 csd uwm edu nntp posting host originator qazi csd4 csd uwm edu from article qkkl5innbvo hp col col hp com by theckel col hp com tim heckel for those that are interested got my fully optioned air abs sunroof se in september for in sacramento ca it was one of the st sold few of the dealers had any no local dealer had an abs equipped se went straight to the fleet manager at the dealership liked told him what wanted made him aware that knew what his price should be he called me back with exactly what wanted from dealer mi away took delivery the next day when was selling nissans last summer sold se in early august when its supply was getting quite scarce the car was black with abs value option pkg and power moonroof sold it for plus tax naturally my manager didn really care to sell one of the most desirable se for virtually no profit to the best of my knowledge aamir qazi aamir qazi qazi csd4 csd uwm edu why should care rather watch drying paint path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net noc near net uunet portal cup portal com harv from harv cup portal com harv laser newsgroups rec autos subject re dumbest automotive concepts of all time message id cup portal com date thu apr pdt organization the portal system tm references qa1 wichitaks ncr com apr15 acs ucalgary ca c5jnk3 jkt news cso uiuc edu apr15 cactus org lines no reverse lights are to warn others that you are backing up they aren bright enough to typically see by without the brake and tail lights craig perhaps instead of this silly argument about what backup lights are for couldn we agree that they serve the dual purpose of letting people behind your car know that you have it in reverse and that they can also light up the area behind your car while you re backing up so you can see backup lamps on current models are much brighter than they used to be on older cars those on my taurus wagon are quite bright enough to illuminate good area behind the car and they re much brighter than those on my earlier cars from the and insofar as vettes having side backup lights look at or model or perhaps year or two earlier too and you ll see red side marker lamps and white side marker lamps both near the car hindquarters those aren just white reflectors harv path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu usenet coe montana edu news washington edu lanmola eliot from eliot lanmola engr washington edu eliot newsgroups rec autos subject re station wagons was open letter to nissan date apr gmt organization clearer than blir lines distribution na message id apr16 engr washington edu references apr15 walter bellcore com apr16 engr washington edu apr16 leland stanford edu nntp posting host lanmola engr washington edu in article apr16 leland stanford edu tedebear leland stanford edu theodore chen writes but you ll never catch me dead in minivan even minivan based on viper running gear hmmmm not sure since no such beast exists can tell you another though you won catch me dead in gmc syclone or typhoon either bhp or not not even the fact that clint eastwood has one just my taste no rational reasons for it teddy think the audi s4 gets liter next year car just tested the s4 wagon with banger and speed manual rave review except for servotronic audi is trying to recoup the development costs for the v8 and since the v8 is not selling well they are sticking it into the series cars neat marketing trick eh yeah v8 wouldn be bad idea as competition for the upcoming bimmer would it maybe they can use liter version to avoid conflicts with the v8 model then strip off all the luxo garbage let the s4 remain with the flared arches and fat tires to go fight with the m5 maybe turn up the boost wee bit to bump bhp up to say or so while keeping the v8 with mercedes style subtlety blah blah blah eliot newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech swrinde zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net agate headwall stanford edu nntp stanford edu tedebear from tedebear leland stanford edu theodore chen subject re mgbs and the real world message id apr16 leland stanford edu sender news leland stanford edu mr news organization dsg stanford university ca usa references apr8 hasler ascom ch apr15 nezsdc icl co nz qlg02 iu6 uniwa uwa oz au date fri apr gmt lines in article qlg02 iu6 uniwa uwa oz au scott psy uwa oz au scott fisher writes have you driven turbo converted mx5 now they are starting to perform ve often thought mazda rotary would go well in the xm5 too anyone done it no but somebody dropped ford into the miata somewhat reminiscent of the shelby cobra the car obviously not as nimble as before but it supposed to have near weight distribution and handle very well sure love to drive one teddy newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel news intercon com psinntp sdc tellab5 laidbak dye from dye lachman com ken dye subject re feedback requested on lowering mustang message id apr15 i88 isc com sender usenet i88 isc com usenet news nntp posting host london i88 isc com organization lachman technology inc naperville il references x3xz2b2w165w vllyoak resun com date thu apr gmt lines in article x3xz2b2w165w vllyoak resun com jp vllyoak resun com jeff perry writes have found kit advertised for lowering the front end of an early mustang installation envolves moving the upper arm and installation of wedge shaped spacer between the arm and ball joint apparently shelby mustangs did similair modification but left out the spacer would be interested in feedback pro or con on such modification no mustang head but don the early ones have simple strut suspension that is with no upper arm just strut going down to lower control arm single bushing not an arm with tension compression rod locating it in the forward backward direction anyway simple strut suspensions like this can be lowered just by using shorter springs cutting the springs lowering the spring perch or shortening the strut below the perch in each of these cases the suspension geometry will suffer because the lower control arms will not be at the intended angle spacer placed between control arm and the bottom of the strut roughly the height of the reduction will restore the suspension geometry imho the kit that includes the spacer is the only way to go ken ken dye an optimist is guy lachman technology inc chicago that has never had x341 much experience dye lachman com archy xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech alt autos antique rec autos antique newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech alt autos antique rec autos antique path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet mcsun chsun hslrswi kevinh from kevinh hslrswi hasler ascom ch kevinh subject re warning please read message id apr16 hasler ascom ch originator kevinh nath sender news hasler ascom ch reply to kevinh hasler ascom ch organization ascom hasler ag references qh336innfl5 cs utk edu c5h7qz kya boi hp com date fri apr gmt lines in article c5h7qz kya boi hp com wesf boi hp com wes fujii writes brian larose larose austin cs utk edu wrote never saw the guy the police said they thought the motive was to hit the car have us stop to check out the damage and then jump us and take the truck please be aware of folks and for your own good please don stop sad this sort of thing is on the rise across the country south florida is getting lot of national tv coverage on the subject where vacationers are being attacked and some killed in schemes similar to this make that worldwide coverage know numerous people who were planning holidays to the florida and have now chosen another non us destination you expect this sort of thing perhaps in third world countries but not the us kevinh hasler ascom ch newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu caen destroyer mudos ganglion david from david ganglion ann arbor mi us david hwang subject re sho and sc message id apr15 ganglion ann arbor mi us organization services references unisql uucp chrissc587qb d1b netcom com unisql uucp date thu apr gmt lines in article unisql uucp wrat unisql uucp wharfie writes in article chrissc587qb d1b netcom com chriss netcom com chris silvester writes wagon which have heard is somehow slightly faster than the coupe wagon has an automatic it slower could be due to the rear end ratio also usually automatics have different rear ends than manuals from my limited experience anyways david david hwang university of michigan medical school wall street suite telephone ann arbor michigan internet david ganglion ann arbor mi us xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos misc wanted newsgroups rec autos misc wanted path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech purdue mentor cc purdue edu thwang from thwang mentor cc purdue edu tommy hwang subject the kuebelwagen message id c5k5co f09 mentor cc purdue edu organization purdue university computing center references wanderer camelot date fri apr gmt lines sorry for the mis spelling but forgot how to spell it after my series of exams and no on hand reference here is it still possible to get those cute wwii vw jeep wanna be replica would be great think tkh if can convert to c128t can do anything not path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net spool mu edu uunet munnari oz au metro basser cs su oz au news adelaide edu au levels unisa edu au etjet from etjet levels unisa edu au newsgroups rec autos subject aussie needs info on car shows message id apr5 levels unisa edu au date apr reply to johnt spri levels unisa edu au organization university of south australia lines hi from australia am car enthusiast in australia am particularly interested in american muscle cars of the and all makes amc ford chrysler mopar gm will be in the usa for weeks from may nd to june chicago sun may thursday may denver friday may sunday may austin texas monday may friday may oklahoma city friday may monday may anaheim california tuesday may thursday may las vegas nevada friday may sunday may grand canion monday may tuesday june las angeles san diego and vicinity wednesday june sunday june june south lake tahoe cal sunday june wednesday june reno thursday june san fransisco thursday june sunday june was wondering if anyone could send me any information of car shows swap meets drag meets model car shows etc during this period can anybody tell me when the pomona swap meet is on this year also any places to visit eg car museums private collections your collection etc any bit of information is appreciated am also interested in finding some model cars scale models am intersted in amc cars of particular interest is amx javelin scrambler rebel machine and others if you have any kits plastics diecast etc and are interested in selling them tell me will be interested can also send bring you models of australian high performance cars if you are interested please reply by email to johnt spri levels unisa edu au thanks john tsimbinos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet munnari oz au metro basser cs su oz au news adelaide edu au levels unisa edu au etjet from etjet levels unisa edu au newsgroups rec autos subject aussie needs info on usa car shows swap meets message id apr5 levels unisa edu au date apr reply to johnt spri levels unisa edu au organization university of south australia lines hi from australia am car enthusiast in australia am particularly interested in american muscle cars of the and all makes amc ford chrysler mopar gm will be in the usa for weeks from may nd to june chicago sun may thursday may denver friday may sunday may austin texas monday may friday may oklahoma city friday may monday may anaheim california tuesday may thursday may las vegas nevada friday may sunday may grand canion monday may tuesday june las angeles san diego and vicinity wednesday june sunday june june south lake tahoe cal sunday june wednesday june reno thursday june san fransisco thursday june sunday june was wondering if anyone could send me any information of car shows swap meets drag meets model car shows etc during this period can anybody tell me when the pomona swap meet is on this year also any places to visit eg car museums private collections your collection etc any bit of information is appreciated am also interested in finding some model cars scale models am intersted in amc cars of particular interest is amx javelin scrambler rebel machine and others if you have any kits plastics diecast etc and are interested in selling them tell me will be interested can also send bring you models of australian high performance cars if you are interested please reply by email to johnt spri levels unisa edu au thanks john tsimbinos newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net agate deep rsoft bc ca mindlink a7955 from eric thomas mindlink bc ca eric thomas subject thunderbird organization mind link british columbia canada date fri apr gmt message id mindlink bc ca sender news deep rsoft bc ca usenet news at rsoft bc ca lines just bought bird and would like any info on club in and around the the coast eric thomas xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech alt autos antique rec autos antique newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech alt autos antique rec autos antique path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu utnut torn blaze trentu ca trentu ca bjones from bjones trentu ca name subject re warning please read message id apr16 trentu ca sender news trentu ca usenet news system reply to bjones trentu ca organization trent university peterborough references qh336innfl5 cs utk edu c5h7qz kya boi hp com apr16 hasler ascom ch date fri apr gmt lines in article apr16 hasler ascom ch kevinh hslrswi hasler ascom ch kevinh writes in article c5h7qz kya boi hp com wesf boi hp com wes fujii writes brian larose larose austin cs utk edu wrote never saw the guy the police said they thought the motive was to hit the car have us stop to check out the damage and then jump us and take the truck please be aware of folks and for your own good please don stop sad this sort of thing is on the rise across the country south florida is getting lot of national tv coverage on the subject where vacationers are being attacked and some killed in schemes similar to this make that worldwide coverage know numerous people who were planning holidays to the florida and have now chosen another non us destination you expect this sort of thing perhaps in third world countries but not the us in response to this and other articles that have been written on this subject would like to say that it is not just us problem in southern ontario last summer there were several instances along the where people mainly truckers were shot at from overpasses there are many sick people out there and it makes you wonder what the worlds coming to kevinh hasler ascom ch path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net agate ames sun barr news2me ebay sun com cronkite central sun com clesun dbernard from dbernard clesun central sun com dave bernard newsgroups rec autos subject re jeep wrangler opini date apr gmt organization sun microsystems lines distribution world message id qm6noinnn8t cronkite central sun com references c5hltg db vu vlsi ee vill edu reply to dbernard clesun central sun com nntp posting host clesun central sun com in article db vu vlsi ee vill edu mobasser vu vlsi ee vill edu bijan mobasseri writes how do square this with respectable resale value easy if it expensive to buy new it gonna be expensive to buy used patently false statement try this logic on an alfa in fact marketplace has wonderufl mechanism to adjust the value of the cars that are overpriced by the manufacturer if it is expensive to buy new it is not necessarily expnesive to buy used in fact it could be real cheap to buy used depending what that car is of course note that do not question your statements on the reliability of wrangler have never owned one driven one or been in one do love to have one though what don understand is why this apparent neglect of quality for so many years has not filtered down into the used market is jeep so intoxicating so irresistable and so seductive as to make its purchase fatal attraction bijan yep they are popular vehicles you don see lot of previous model year ones sitting on dealer lots for any lenghth of time after the new ones are out the things sell they are popular because they are popular and high priced new they are high price used very simple knew they were overpriced when bought it knew they had terrible reliability record when bought it but didn expect anything like got especially with dealer network unable to repair it personal experience has quickly cured me of my infatuation with the machine dave path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net sol ctr columbia edu ira uka de math fu berlin de fauern rrze uni erlangen de cip informatik uni erlangen de dalibor from dalibor cip informatik uni erlangen de stefan dalibor newsgroups rec autos subject re too fast date fri apr gmt organization csd university of erlangen message id qm6hnehce uni erlangen de references qehi6 ork armory centerline com unisql uucp qh61m b6l armory centerline com unisql uucp qkon8 re armory centerline com reply to dalibor immd3 uni erlangen de nntp posting host faui00g informatik uni erlangen de lines jimf centerline com jim frost writes there are few things to keep in mind about europe since you brought it up my autobahn knowledge is admittedly second hand but believe the following to be true my knowledge about driving in the is also second hand but think can correct your statements about our autobahn drivers are much better disciplined in europe than they are here oh yeah that would be paradise in fact you can forget it from all ve heard from my relatives drivers esp here in germany are much more agg ressive but not disciplined one of my relatives resident hired car at the nuernberg airport and went about miles to our home he said then that he grew about year older during this ride and swore he never drive car in germany again this was in and he kept his promise the situation now is even worse as effect of the increased volume of traffic what you mean by better disciplined should perhaps be considered cautious due to fear when driving around here you always have to take into consideration that the majority of the other drivers absolutely relies on you they expect that nobody fails or sleeps many of them exploit this by driving as fast as their car can go of course only where that is allowed you might think dream on so any mistake you make is very high risk to your health and if you re ex posed to such situation from your very first day as driver you learn to handle it or you lose that the way and most people know experience our traffic situation whether you think this is pleasant or efficient is up to you think we handle very high volume of traffic and that at high speeds with modest compared to the volume and decreasing rates of lethal accidents otoh more and more people esp women dislike driving because they feel overtaxed and threatened and each accident is one accident too much the roads comprising the autobahn are much better designed than they are here and usually include animal fences this makes them far more predictable than most us highways better designed and maintained may be but animal fences are very rare auto bahnen and many other streets have guard rails hope that the right word plank made from thick steel sheet fixed on uprights it about feet high those guard rails are designed for keeping vehicles on the road smaller animals can crawl under the plank bigger ones can easily jump over it the point is that esp larger animals are very rare in germany they tend also to be very timid accidents caused by animals are neglegible danger not all of europe is the autobahn most places in europe have speed limits that aren out of line with what we used to have in the us if my friends weren lying to me they re typically not much higher than km you re right there are speed linits even on the major part of the autobahn but the attitude towards driving see above seems to be very similar to that in germany ve been in france switzerland italy austria spain belgium the netherlands besides that you really can rely on the residents abiding the local speed limits ve got quite lot of practise miles and used to travel at mph fyi with car even smaller than rabbit but consider driving on the highways round paris or milano really thrill strongly suspect you won find lot of rabbit owners doing mph nearly km on the autobahn but could be wrong sorry but you ll find quite lot rabbit class car or even smaller mine is peugeot owners going that fast small cars with much hp are very hip over here and most people buying such cars aren afraid to let them run some people have no respect for their own lives disagree the size or weight of car is rather irrelevant formula cars weigh less than kg and the drivers have chance to survive accidents at mph or higher otoh when crashing against solid object at mph it makes no difference whether you sit in porsche mercedes tank or on bicycle your re dead bye stefan stefan dalibor dalibor immd3 uni erlangen de and now for the next case in kangaroo court accuse you of being the reincarnation of adolf hitler don think that mere denials will be sufficient you will have to submit to examinations by parapsychologist that personally select perry metzger pmetzger shearson com in article in news admin policy path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu ames sun barr news2me ebay sun com cronkite central sun com clesun dbernard from dbernard clesun central sun com dave bernard newsgroups rec autos subject re ad said nissan altima best seller date apr gmt organization sun microsystems lines distribution world message id r0vk6innaft cronkite central sun com references apr19 cactus org reply to dbernard clesun central sun com nntp posting host clesun central sun com too was puzzled by this obvious untruth what think is going on is that nissan claims that the altima is the best selling new car namelplate in the us think have this near verbatim lee iaccoca statistics dept would have been proud of that sentence note that the corolla prism are also new designs but hey are not new nameplates guess nissan doesn even sell as many altimas as toyota does corollas or there would be no nameplate qualifier newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com hpscit sc hp com hpuerca atl hp com sjp from sjp hpuerca atl hp com steve phillips subject re super mega automobile sighting exotics together message id c5scli hpuerca atl hp com date tue apr gmt references qvgg3innl0r phantom gatech edu organization hewlett packard narc atlanta newsreader tin pl5 lines give out the address ll drive by and take look myself then post stephen phillips atlanta response center atlanta ga home of the braves newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com hpscit sc hp com news dtc hp com srgenprp jackd from jackd sad hp com jack dauler subject re tires for ford ranger pickup sender news srgenprp sr hp com news administrator message id c5sdmc aa srgenprp sr hp com date tue apr gmt references apr8 oracle us oracle com organization hp sonoma county srsd mwtd mid newsreader tin version pl6 lines have had good luck with my ranger and yokohama tires the tires have been wearing well and even the few times have hauled heavy loads they have done well newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net agate linus progress damelio from damelio progress com stephen amelio subject re ford and the automobile message id apr20 progress com sender usenet progress com mr usenet nntp posting host elba organization progress software corp references c5qv43 bnq eis calstate edu date tue apr gmt lines rwong eis calstate edu russel wong writes hello my name is russell wong and am doing research project on henry ford and his automobile need information on whether ford is partially responsible for all of the car accidents ya he cut me off on the other day he drives like crazy person have to say he responsible for most accidents they really should pull his licence steve alan kulwicki winston cup champion newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net gatech concert rock taco chuck from chuck eos ncsu edu chuck kesler subject re ford probe opinions centered around the gt message id apr20 ncsu edu sender news ncsu edu usenet news system organization north carolina state university project eos references ufofxkq00imfi4dks0 andrew cmu edu apr20 sco com date tue apr gmt lines in article apr20 sco com nathanp sco com nathan writes jeremy mereness zonker cmu edu says can anyone offer any opinions of the ford probe ala how they do in the long run repair records reliability mileage etc am fixing to buy car in the next few months aiming toward something little bigger than typical small car and with little more power am considering the mx probe accord corolla and the sx bought probe gt with the pep last july now at miles after debating over the sentra se nx2000 mx6 mr stealth prelude and celica the car design is different than earlier years so it too early to see its reliability so far for what it worth my comments my dislikes shutting door with windows up from inside rarely makes good wind seal some other owners on the ford probe world std com mailing list have commented about this problem but haven seen it happen on my month old probe gt think this may be something that ford has corrected since the initial batch of cars also someone said that ford has issued service bulletin to inform dealers about how to correct this problem so you may be able to get your dealer to fix it headlights have stuck up few times weather air conditioning broke miles pressure cycling switch condensation around rear washer fluid container doesn drain completely haven seen any of these problems nor have seen these mentioned on the mailing list so these might just be having bad luck with these crammed engine little hope for do it yourselfers typical definitely parts somewhat more expensive than normal ford parts underside plastic doesn like sharp driveways and speedbumps typical assembly gripes tape on radiator screw fell out of dash seat seams not stitched properly hopefully just fluke no problems like these either haven been able to find any obvious places where they screwed up ford only gives key with the car mon ford spend an extra few pennies hmmm got two keys with my car something tells me you got stiffed by your dealer on this actually if you count the credit card key that came in the owner binder got keys but since the credit card key doesn have any teeth cut in it yet guess won count it rear hatch has no padding on corners when up waiting for the day when bash my head on the corner horn buttons behind air bag in spokes and not in center personal preference the latter is probably because of the air bag it pretty much takes up all the space where you expect to find the horn speaking of the horn was surprised to find that the probe comes with one of those nice merican sounding horns instead of the japanese sounding kind the previous probes had japanese horns tires fling dirt mud onto side of car yeah not very badly but enough to be annoying sometimes my likes engine design valves sounds smoothness power mileage torque definitely handling very good for fwd understeer only at limits transmission the speed is must usable instrumentation lovely readable analog everywhere very little torque steer at full power much better than the sho drive stability at mph high gearing though low cowl good visibility in front heated outside mirrors nice in fog never tested in freezing weather abs air bag see above rear seats fold down have few rear seat passengers so trunk not important no shake rattle noises when going over bumps potholes still tires vr16 goodyear eagles left hoping for agree strongly with all of the above especially about the engine the interior is very very nice too very pleasing to the eye and ergonomically sound drive it to and from work each day on relatively smooth roads and most noticable thing is that the probe suspension doesn like potholes when you test drive one find potholed road somewhere around town and see if the jarring you get is tolerable yes this car stiff suspension isn for everyone personally like it but if you find it little harsh but otherwise like the car strongly suggest looking into the mx if you have passengers by all means bring them along too they ll find that they have no room in the back and you ll find that the car rides differently if that better is up to you the problem with the back seat is that there no leg room plenty of head room though shorter people fit back there without any complaints so long as the seat they are sitting behind is pulled forward bit to give them place to put their feet also there lot of glass around you which wasn expecting the temperature inside the car gets pretty hot in the summer my back seat passengers now very few complain about the lack of ventilation you may want to consider that when combined with the heat the power moonroof can greatly improve the ventilation throughout the car really enjoy the moonroof by the way but then ve always been sucker for open air driving no leakage problems or anything like that yet ve heard that the exhaust system has trouble but mine works fine haven heard about this one know that some of the very early probes and maybe had problems with prematurely rusting mufflers which ford will replace at no charge but haven heard about anything like this concerning the probes haven had any real trouble with this car outside of cv joint boot that was leaking but the dealer took care of that promptly and even gave me free rental car for the day and half that was without my car was quite happy with the way they handled especially considering that was expecting the worst from them from what ve heard it sounds like ford mazda had some qc problems with the probe and probably mx when they first went into production but think these problems have mostly been corrected at this point that almost always to be expected with completely new car like this though hope this helps chuck chuck kesler internet chuck eos ncsu edu unix systems programmer us mail box ncsu campus engineering computer operations raleigh nc usa north carolina state university phone path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net noc near net transfer stratus com questor sw stratus com kvk from kvk questor sw stratus com ken koellner newsgroups rec autos subject sticky lock on tailgate date apr gmt organization stratus computer software engineering lines distribution world message id r11p3 pao transfer stratus com nntp posting host questor sw stratus com my toyota runner has rolldown rear window with keylock switch it sticky on me yesterday it was tough to get the key to work and it also happened to stick on in the up direction so the stalled motor was powered all night killing the battery like to try to lubricate the lock switch what should lubricate the lock with email please thanx ken don drink american corporate swill support you local micro brewery me newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet pipex sunic ericom st83 etxmst from etxmst sta ericsson se markus strobl subject renting from alamo message id apr20 ericsson se sender news ericsson se nntp posting host st83 ericsson se reply to etxmst sta ericsson se organization ericsson telecom ab date tue apr gmt lines hello netters visiting the us from sweden in august will probably rent chevy beretta from alamo ve been quoted for week for additional days this would include free driving distance but not local taxes baltimore they also told me all insurance thats necessary is included but doubt that cause friend rented car last year and it turned out he needed lot more insurance than what included in the base price but on the other hand he didn rent it from alamo does anyone have some info on this is rip off probability that ll be needing more insurance is the beretta good rental car thanx markus path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet news centerline com jimf from jimf centerline com jim frost newsgroups rec autos subject re dumbest automotive concepts of all time date apr gmt organization centerline software inc lines distribution na message id r11ce idt armory centerline com references apr13 slcs slb com c5hhgm rm constellation ecn uoknor edu apr15 slcs slb com apr15 jpl devvax jpl nasa gov nntp posting host nancy hayduke nancy feagans writes ashtrays and cigarette lighters these should be an option gm at least is heading in that direction one of the post sale questions they asked me was if like the choice of cigarette liter or an accessory plug and another whether like the choice of an ashtray or cup holder the geo storms have the cigarette lighter vs accessory plug option which did not exist in the bought not sure about the ash tray vs cup holder it step in the right direction the ashtray does make convenient change holder so it not completely useless jim frost jimf centerline com newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu usc cs utexas edu uunet spsgate mogate newsgate usenet from markm bigfoot sps mot com mark monninger subject re no haggle deals save message id apr20 newsgate sps mot com sender usenet newsgate sps mot com nntp posting host reply to rapw20 email sps mot com organization sps references fibercom com distribution usa date tue apr gmt lines you can be sure they wouldn do it if it wasn to their advantage mark newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu jnielsen from jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu john nielsen subject re ford probe opinions centered around the gt message id apr20 magnus acs ohio state edu sender news magnus acs ohio state edu nntp posting host magnusug magnus acs ohio state edu organization the ohio state university references ufofxkq00imfi4dks0 andrew cmu edu apr20 sco com apr20 ncsu edu date tue apr gmt lines in article apr20 ncsu edu chuck eos ncsu edu chuck kesler writes rear hatch has no padding on corners when up waiting for the day when bash my head on the corner horn buttons behind air bag in spokes and not in center personal preference the latter is probably because of the air bag it pretty much takes up all the space where you expect to find the horn all toyotas have airbags with real horn come on how hard can it be to put little pressure plate there hope toyota doesn follow everyone else and make the horns little buttons that wouldn want to fumble for john john nielsen magnus consultant to you baldrick the renaissance was just something that happened to other people wasn it the black adder path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu unisql wrat from wrat unisql uucp wharfie newsgroups rec autos subject re it rush was re too fast message id unisql uucp date apr gmt references c5lobl ddw mentor cc purdue edu unisql uucp c5r43y f0d mentor cc purdue edu distribution usa organization unisql inc austin texas usa lines in article c5r43y f0d mentor cc purdue edu marshatt feserve cc purdue edu zauberer writes guess wasn clear enough here said the roads were designed for speeds of or so and still be safe the current will add saftey margin they were designed for speeds of upwards of forget the exact spec but for military vehicles that in dodge powerwagon not in ford taurus path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu unisql wrat from wrat unisql uucp wharfie newsgroups rec autos subject re where can get new york taxi message id unisql uucp date apr gmt references unisql uucp c5r66a rb srgenprp sr hp com distribution na organization unisql inc austin texas usa lines in article c5r66a rb srgenprp sr hp com almanb sr hp com bob alman writes hose dork path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net gatech phantom gatech edu phantom gatech edu not for mail from grahamt phantom gatech edu graham thomas newsgroups rec autos subject super mega automobile sighting exotics together date apr organization georgia institute of technology lines message id qvgg3innl0r phantom gatech edu nntp posting host oit gatech edu alright beat this automobile sighting driving along just hair north of atlanta noticed an old run down former car dealership which appeared to deal with and repair older rare or exotic foreign sports cars saw ford gt the famous model from ford that seemed to win most of its races in the late including le mans or times two jensen interceptors one convertable one hatchback porsche boring compared to the rest three ferarries mondial prepared for racing and red model that couldn identify and at the bottom late mg convertable outside there was rotting rover saloon which was never regularly sold in the and in the showroom there was small italian body either an alpha romeo or lancia it was about the size of an austin mini the trunklid was missing exposing boot with voltage regulator in the upper left corner of the wall and chunk of metal removed from the floor on the right hand side as if something would leave the trunk and go to the outside from here the taillights looked like they would be the round type if they were there does anyone know what the make of this one is certainly made my day graham thomas blah blah blah blah blah georgia institute of technology blah blah blah blah blah internet grahamt oit gatech edu blah blah blah blah blah from thatchh hplsla hp com thatch harvey date mon apr gmt subject re mercury capri restrictions message id hplsla hp com organization hp lake stevens wa path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net usc sdd hp com hp cv hp pcd hplsla thatchh newsgroups rec autos references turnock b648mac9 larc nasa gov lines the restriction could have to do with the car being convertible lot of paronoid laws were passed concerning convertibles in the these states may require greater rollover protection than the capri affords thatch harvey thatch harvey uucp no longer valid domain thatchh hplsla hp com hewlett packard lake stevens instrument division lake stevens wa merkur xr4ti suzuki gsx1100g prince sr3 sports racer from thatchh hplsla hp com thatch harvey date mon apr gmt subject re removing rain coat on the front windshield any tips message id hplsla hp com organization hp lake stevens wa path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net usc sdd hp com hp cv hp pcd hplsla thatchh newsgroups rec autos references q4t2binnkne shelley washington edu lines if you want summer without rain you re in the wrong place you must not have been here whole year yet keep the rain handy my friend thatch thatch harvey uucp no longer valid domain thatchh hplsla hp com hewlett packard lake stevens instrument division lake stevens wa merkur xr4ti suzuki gsx1100g prince sr3 sports racer path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu lll winken llnl gov sun barr news2me ebay sun com seven up east sun com dr pepper east sun com hooksett jfox from jfox hooksett east sun com john fox sunexpress ir newsgroups rec autos subject re it rush was re too fast date apr gmt organization sun microsystems inc lines distribution world message id r178r ds dr pepper east sun com references unisql uucp reply to jfox hooksett east sun com nntp posting host hooksett east sun com in article unisql uucp wrat unisql uucp wharfie writes in article c5r43y f0d mentor cc purdue edu marshatt feserve cc purdue edu zauberer writes guess wasn clear enough here said the roads were designed for speeds of or so and still be safe the current will add saftey margin they were designed for speeds of upwards of forget the exact spec but for military vehicles that in dodge powerwagon not in ford taurus ah yes the powerwagon now there was vehicle that today cars can touch in terms of high speed road holding ability path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech phantom gatech edu phantom gatech edu not for mail from grahamt phantom gatech edu graham thomas newsgroups rec autos subject re blast to the past date apr organization georgia institute of technology lines message id qvhaminnl3g phantom gatech edu references apr19 ns1 cc lehigh edu nntp posting host oit gatech edu amh2 ns1 cc lehigh edu alois himsl writes be worthwhile or how about something like the old mgb with new technology just think about it the old style with upgraded safety features and perhaps natural gas operated engine for less than think it would go over well what is your opinion al well the mgb is currently in production for the english market built by rover it now has v8 improved suspention and slightly updated body too bad it only available in gb and would set one of us back about graham thomas blah blah blah blah blah georgia institute of technology blah blah blah blah blah internet grahamt oit gatech edu blah blah blah blah blah path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com sgiblab cs uoregon edu news uoregon edu netnews nwnet net news washington edu carson washington edu nsx from nsx carson washington edu ns newsgroups rec autos subject re zx or sc300 date apr gmt organization university of washington seattle lines message id qvhlhinndjo shelley washington edu references apr19 ns1 cc lehigh edu issa cwis nntp posting host carson washington edu ip02 ns1 cc lehigh edu danny phornprapha writes getting car in the near future ve narrow it down to zx and sc300 which might be better choice thanks for your opnion danny ve been asking myself this same question for the past year so if when you find out would you please share the magistic answer with me the way see it right now work twice as hard so you can have both cheers issa my suggestion is why not work twice as hard like issa suggested above then get acura nsx enjoy seb newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net gatech purdue mentor cc purdue edu noose ecn purdue edu rainbow ecn purdue edu rjwade from rjwade rainbow ecn purdue edu robert wade subject re grand am cyl message id c5shpy chh noose ecn purdue edu sender news noose ecn purdue edu usenet news organization purdue university engineering computer network references apr remus rutgers edu holcomb apr19073907 wgermany ctron com date tue apr gmt lines in article holcomb apr19073907 wgermany ctron com holcomb ctron com edgar ii holcomb writes in article apr remus rutgers edu wilmott remus rutgers edu ray wilmott writes hi all while back was asking for info about few different models the grand am being one of them response was generally favorable one thing often repeated was go for the v6 for some real power point well taken but does anybody have any input on the cylinders both the standard ohc and the quad ray the high output quad delivers hp for the wf41 quad whereas the v6 offered in the grand am delivers hp own beretta gtz ooppss the v6 in the grand am is the litre not the the is downsized version of buicks litre v6 the v6 goes in the beretta and corsica newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu caen batcomputer cornell rochester rit isc newsserver ritvax isc rit edu ajg1678 from ajg1678 ritvax isc rit edu subject re buick heater controls message id apr20 ultb isc rit edu sender news ultb isc rit edu usenet news system nntp posting host vaxa isc rit edu reply to ajg1678 ritvax isc rit edu organization rochester institute of technology references dirac physics purdue edu distribution usa date tue apr gmt lines had the exactly same problem with my lesabre it was also from cal what did was go to the local junkyard and pick up diaphragm from lesabre with the same heater set up it worked for me but little bit slow to change from vents to defogger better than nothing newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech purdue mentor cc purdue edu noose ecn purdue edu rainbow ecn purdue edu rjwade from rjwade rainbow ecn purdue edu robert wade subject re improvements in automatic transmissions message id c5si80 cn4 noose ecn purdue edu sender news noose ecn purdue edu usenet news organization purdue university engineering computer network references qsljc dd quad wfunet wfu edu apr19 pearl tufts edu qugvu ai8 quad wfunet wfu edu date tue apr gmt lines in article qugvu ai8 quad wfunet wfu edu hagenjd wfu edu jeff hagen writes thanx to all those who responded particularly those never driven an xxx but here what it like guys ok we all know that new age at are great in traffic and do satisfactory job in acceleration when you keep your foot buried in the carpet my question regards downshifting not downshifting to pass at are good at this now but manually moving the lever to or at point where you would downshift manual approaching red light or curve or just tooling around parking lot in st or nd shifting this is why still manual trans bigot the downshifting for deceleration seems so natural when try this in an automatic the tranny doesn seem to understand what want addendum isn it great after downshifting while approaching that red light when the light goes green and you re already on cam or the turbo already spooled up zippppppppppp hagen hagenjd ac wfu edu have grand am with auto and quad4 around the gear selector there is plastic strip which covers the space so you can see inside anyway took the cover off and cut the end of this long strip to specific length the strip curls up into cirlce at one end inside anyway by doing this the strip can feed into the lip that circles it so can push button pull down and the gear shifter will only go back to from drive no accidental hitting first drive around town in to keep the revs up shift to drive above and pull down to when coming up to lights if want if am eating food drive in drive there are probably aftermarket shift kits that will accomplish the same thing porsche tip tronic automatic can be driven like an auto or put into mode tip up upshift tip down downshift of course there is an override so you don redline the engine newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet walter porthos donner chris1 from chris1 donner cc bellcore com ross christina subject re braindead drivers who don look ahead organization bellcore livingston nj distribution usa date tue apr gmt message id apr20 porthos cc bellcore com references apr16 ctp com tekig7 pen tek com keywords bad drivers sender netnews porthos cc bellcore com usenet system software lines in article tekig7 pen tek com jitloke tekig5 pen tek com jit loke lim writes in article apr14 cbnewsd cb att com hhm cbnewsd cb att com herschel mayo writes anybody is going anywhere so block the would be passers not only for my own good but theirs as well even though they are often too stupid to realize it ah we are looking for good people just like you we are very concerned group of citizens who are absolutely disgusted at the way that the majority of drivers simply disobey traffic rules like going above the speed limit passing on our right and riding our tails while all the while we respectfully abide by the rules of this great country and maintain the mandated speed limits with our calibrated certified cruise controls while keeping the respectful car length distance mph speed how many times have you been ticked off by some moron who jumps ahead in the car lengths that you have left between you and the vehicle ahead of you while driving mph finally you have an option we are totally member supported group that perform functions for our own good for the good of this great country but most of all for those unfortunate ones that are too stupid to realize it bless their souls for paltry you can join citizens for rationally advanced piloting non profit members only society but but but there is slight hitch the initiation rite to be full fledged member of this exclusive club you must proof that you are able to be in the fast lane of the busiest interstate in your area keep the correct car lenth mph speedand know this can be difficult with those morons around not let anybody pass you not in the next lane not in the slow lane not in the breakdown lane not nowhere for complete list of acceptable interstates and times send and by the way over of our members are highly regarded attorneys in the auto field and they are completely absolutely positively in the business only to serve your best interests as testament to their virtues they will give members off the initial consultation fee feel free to drop me line at your earliest convenience and remember only speed kills jit of course you are bunch of arrogant lawyers who know whats best for the rest of us you are doing such wonderful job with our judicial system getting all the criminals off bow to your superior intellect not to mention the fees you collect from us poor slobs who get tickets from speeding state police officers so you can soak is when we go to court just love lawyer jokes don you newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net news centerline com uunet dove starchild ncsl nist gov keys from keys starchild ncsl nist gov lawrence keys subject re alarm systems are they worthwhile message id c5s88a asl dove nist gov sender news dove nist gov organization national institute of standards technology references apr19 news eng convex com distribution usa date tue apr gmt lines in article apr19 news eng convex com dodson convex com dave dodson writes is it worthwhile to get an alarm system on new car although others have in the past and will continue to disagree think that it is worthwhile to get an alarm what features are important think that it is important to protect your trunk engine bay all doors get flashing lights led mounted on the drivers and passenger door and relay to disable engine operation toss in glass break sensor and shock sensor door lock and unlock two remotes and panic feature are also nice to have most important is where you have the installation done some places may cost little more but poorly installed alarm no matter how much it cost will be major burden what features are unimportant imo things like engine starters voice alarms window sunroof open and close and most other conveniences dave dodson dodson convex com convex computer corporation richardson texas larry keys csmes ncsl nist gov oo fahrvergnugen forever the fact that need to explain it to you indicates that you probably wouldn understand anyway newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net bogus sura net darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet dove starchild ncsl nist gov keys from keys starchild ncsl nist gov lawrence keys subject re dumbest automotive concepts of all time message id c5s8qf b5c dove nist gov sender news dove nist gov organization national institute of standards technology references apr13 slcs slb com apr15 jpl devvax jpl nasa gov oasys dt navy mil distribution usa date tue apr gmt lines in article oasys dt navy mil glouie oasys dt navy mil george louie writes in rec autos nancy hayduke nancy feagans writes ashtrays and cigarette lighters these should be an option why make it an option you can use the ashtray to store coins and other small things which come in handy use the cigarette lighter as an electrical outlet for all types of handy gadgets cd players vacuum cleaners flashlights etc don want to pay extra for these things and if you don use them they don hurt you use the ashtray to keep change and other items in converted the cigarette lighter into volume control knob for my in trunk subwoofer george larry keys csmes ncsl nist gov oo fahrvergnugen forever the fact that need to explain it to you indicates that you probably wouldn understand anyway xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt parents teens rec autos newsgroups alt parents teens rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu csus edu netcom com rfelix from rfelix netcom com robbie felix subject re warning please read message id rfelixc5sjpe bq8 netcom com keywords brick rock danger gun violent teenagers organization netcom online communications services login guest references qs4a9 f87 bigboote wpi edu c5r1iy v0 ssd intel com apr199316162857 erich triumf ca date tue apr gmt lines in article apr199316162857 erich triumf ca music erich triumf ca fred bach writes in article c5r1iy v0 ssd intel com jrowell ssd intel com janet rowell writes could we plase cease this discussion fail to see why people feel the need to expound upon this issue for days and days on end these areas are not meant for this type of discussion if you feel the need to do such things please take your thought elsewhere thanks exactly my point there is lot of hostility to and from teenagers if you follow the news for the northwest usa you will have heard that group of year old boys barely out of the teens certainly their outlook was developed during their teens just shot and killed an innocent little girl riding in car in the seattle area when her mother who was driving honked her horn at the car with the boys in it this is really upsetting and makes my stomach turn as it would any parent doesn your heart just go out to that poor mother teenagers both drive cars and are involved in automotive vandalism and crime maybe someone on this newsgroup has had specific experience in dealing with violent teenage offenders like these kids are at the same it seems sad that people lose all perspective when they here about case of violence by teenagers for little perspective how about the thousands of kind teenagers who volunteer at local agencies to help children seniors the homeless did you read about all the kids at stanford who spent their spring breaks helping out in inner city areas what about the hundreds of volunteers teenagers and others who worked to clean up the mess after the rodney king riots in la have you gone to your local high school play recently attended the school orchestra performances have you seen how many kids volunteer to pick up trash plant trees do walk thons how many kids have tried to sell you stuff to benefit organizations they belong to how many girl scout cookies have you bought how many chocolate bars for good causes the media picks up on all the anomalies the sensational what about the wonderful teenagers all over the place who work hard at school get good grades go to college or to work and make real contribution to our society all humans are teenagers at some time in their lives mother theresa was teenager and so was geoffrey dahmer it is really sad to see so many people who buy the sensational reporting of the media as some kind of reflection of the world today it is reflection of what is happening on the outer fringes of our society and nothing more rf path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu malgudi oar net hyperion desire wright edu jyow from jyow desire wright edu newsgroups rec autos subject re alarm systems are they worthwhile message id apr19 desire wright edu date apr est references apr19 news eng convex com distribution usa organization wright state university lines in article apr19 news eng convex com dave dodson dodson convex com writes is it worthwhile to get an alarm system on new car what features are important what features are unimportant that is question that can only be answered by yourself and where you live if you live in place where crime is apparent then it might be good idea to get one simply as deterrent however if professional thief wants your vehicle its as good as gone no matter what you do but to slow down any thieves it would be good idea to get the basic options that would be ignition kill or fuel cut off flashing red led these two are basic to decent alarm system to slow down the criminal some more get steering wheel lock that should be sufficient to persuade the thief to find an easier target but then there always car jacking why is life so confusing hope helped somewhat jason yow human factors psychology program wright state university dayton oh mail jyow desire wright edu newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net bogus sura net darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet infonode naomi ljbartel from ljbartel naomi b23b ingr com les bartel subject fast idle on ford ranger message id apr20 infonode ingr com sender usenet infonode ingr com usenet administrator reply to ljbartel naomi b23b ingr com organization intergraph corporation date tue apr gmt lines it did it again this morning my ford ranger was idling at rpm ok so exaggerated little but it was idling very fast it has liter carburated engine in it and no blipping of the throttle would cause the idle to drop back to normal don think the linkage is stuck what can do to fix this problem this has been problem from time to time but has straightened itself out until now don have tach but by gauging by the sound of the engine it is idling about twice as fast as it should be this is down from what it was idling at when pulled up at stop light many thanks for any suggestions les les bartel going to live forever intergraph corporation or die trying electronics division ljbartel ingr com or ljbartel naomi b23b ingr com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net agate ames olivea uunet walter wind jchen from jchen wind bellcore com jason chen newsgroups rec autos subject re ad said nissan altima best seller message id apr20 walter bellcore com date apr gmt references apr19 cactus org c5rlbm m1 murdoch acc virginia edu sender jchen wind jason chen reply to jchen ctt bellcore com organization bell communications research lines nntp posting host wind bellcore com guess that makes altima the most generic car in the us newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net bogus sura net darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet walter wind jchen from jchen wind bellcore com jason chen subject re no haggle deals save message id apr20 walter bellcore com sender jchen wind jason chen nntp posting host wind bellcore com reply to jchen ctt bellcore com organization bell communications research references fibercom com distribution usa date tue apr gmt lines local dealer is advertising no negotiation necessary make you wonder newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net news centerline com uunet hobbes nathanp from nathanp sco com nathan subject re ford probe opinions centered around the gt organization the santa cruz operation date tue apr gmt message id apr20 sco com references ufofxkq00imfi4dks0 andrew cmu edu sender news sco com news admin lines jeremy mereness zonker cmu edu says can anyone offer any opinions of the ford probe ala how they do in the long run repair records reliability mileage etc am fixing to buy car in the next few months aiming toward something little bigger than typical small car and with little more power am considering the mx probe accord corolla and the sx the probe is the youngest of the bunch thus my interest in opinions but every magazine and ratings book places it as an excellent value btw the sx is rear wheel drive and is due for re design for thanks in advance while don read normally read this group was looking for valentine radar information sigh maybe in the faq and came across your posting bought probe gt with the pep last july now at miles after debating over the sentra se nx2000 mx6 mr stealth prelude and celica check this month consumer reports for previous probe records my criteria fun car with abs airbag over hp and less than thought about turbo but checking with insurance people ruled that out the tri star cars eclipse talon etc were out since they don have an air bag ditto for the mustang also no abs the se nx2000 m20 fell into the pocket rocket category good used car buy the mx was almost there but rolled more than liked didn like the prelude dash instrumentation at all too weird for me the mr2 has much smaller non passenger space than needed so out that went the celica was ok but underpowered when loaded with options and somewhat overpriced too in non turbo form never considered the sx since it didn have an airbag did look at it for its rwd virtues but that it the corolla never entered my mind should have looked at the mitsubishi vr4 dodge stealth more since my list was exhausted bought the probe the car design is different than earlier years so it too early to see its reliability so far for what it worth my comments my dislikes shutting door with windows up from inside rarely makes good wind seal headlights have stuck up few times weather air conditioning broke miles pressure cycling switch condensation around rear washer fluid container doesn drain completely crammed engine little hope for do it yourselfers typical parts somewhat more expensive than normal ford parts underside plastic doesn like sharp driveways and speedbumps typical assembly gripes tape on radiator screw fell out of dash seat seams not stitched properly hopefully just fluke ford only gives key with the car mon ford spend an extra few pennies rear hatch has no padding on corners when up waiting for the day when bash my head on the corner horn buttons behind air bag in spokes and not in center personal preference tires fling dirt mud onto side of car my likes engine design valves sounds smoothness power mileage torque definitely handling very good for fwd understeer only at limits transmission the speed is must usable instrumentation lovely readable analog everywhere very little torque steer at full power much better than the sho drive stability at mph high gearing though low cowl good visibility in front heated outside mirrors nice in fog never tested in freezing weather abs air bag see above rear seats fold down have few rear seat passengers so trunk not important no shake rattle noises when going over bumps potholes still tires vr16 goodyear eagles left hoping for as you can see primarily interested in the engine while it doesn have the uummmph of big liter car or the turbo rush the big selling point for me was the all aluminum value liter engine the overall car is good buy for the money that market segment hasn changed much since july prelude vtec honda del sol drive it to and from work each day on relatively smooth roads and most noticable thing is that the probe suspension doesn like potholes when you test drive one find potholed road somewhere around town and see if the jarring you get is tolerable if you have passengers by all means bring them along too they ll find that they have no room in the back and you ll find that the car rides differently if that better is up to you also there lot of glass around you which wasn expecting the temperature inside the car gets pretty hot in the summer my back seat passengers now very few complain about the lack of ventilation you may want to consider that when combined with the heat ve heard that the exhaust system has trouble but mine works fine leather and the keyless entry system weren available when got the car so can comment on them got the car before it was officially announced prefer cloth to leather anyway wouldn want this car in the snow the suspension is too rough for the inevitable surprise potholes tires aren meant for snow and the seats assume that you re not wearing lots of thick clothing rain is much better water generally beads off the windshield at freeway speed the windshield wiper controls are easy and understandable and barely hydroplaned once with the eagles and was really trying there is also definite lack of cup holder small storage places the gt has map holders below the speakers in the door but they re rigid plastic that could fit two cassettes or cd max the center console storage bin arm rest has cup holder and the back of the front seats have cloth pouch but that it no change holders quite let down from the sho and the probe is definitely not people mover car or an econo box car lastly don store wet car covers in the back the foam will soak the water up and the result will not smell pleasant nathan nathan sco com jeremy mereness support ye olde disclaimer zonker cmu edu internet free the above represent my fast project cmu gsia software opinions alone mechanical engineering cmu ya gotta love it every silver lining got touch of grey this year marks the th anniversary of the bill of rights mx nathan sco com no comment they re coming to take me away ha ha napolean xiv xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech sci materials newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech sci materials path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net newsserver jvnc net newsserver technet sg ntuix mgqlu from mgqlu ntuix ntu ac sg max lu subject re auto air conditioning without freon message id apr21 ntuix ntu ac sg followup to rec autos rec autos tech sci materials organization nanyang technological university singapore newsreader tin version pl8 references apr199313375138 erich triumf ca distribution usa date wed apr gmt lines we are working on gas solid adsorption air con system for auto applications in this kind of system the energy for regenerating the adsorbent is from the exhaust gas anyone interested in this mail email me or follow up this thread we may have discussion on prospects of this technology max max lu phd internet mgqlu ntu ac sg division of thermal enginerring bitnet mgqlu ntuvax bitnet school of mpe nanyang technological university phone nanyang avenue singapore fax xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech alt autos antique rec autos antique newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech alt autos antique rec autos antique path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech usenet ufl edu news miami edu cybernet news from vlasis cybernet cse fau edu vlasis theodore subject re warning please read message id smn42b1w165w cybernet cse fau edu sender news cybernet cse fau edu organization cybernet bbs boca raton florida references apr15 convex com date fri apr gmt lines tobias convex com allen tobias writes in article apr15 virginia edu ejv2j virginia edu erik vel this happened about year ago on the washington dc beltway snot nosed drunken kids decided it would be really cool to throw huge rocks down on cars from an overpass four or five cars were hit there were several serious injuries and sadly small girl sitting in the front seat of one of them was struck in the head by one of the larger rocks don recall if she made it but think she was comatose for month or so and doctors weren holding out hope that she live what the hell is happening to this great country of ours can see boyhood pranks of peeing off of bridges and such but pound rocks has our society really stooped this low erik velapold society as we have known it it coming apart at the seams the basic reason is that human life has been devalued to the point were killing someone is no big deal kid see hundreds on murderous acts on tv we can abort children on demand and kill the sick and old at will so why be surprised when some kids drop lbs rocks and kill people they don care because the message they hear is life is cheap at well people fortunatly or unfortunatly only the us is experiencing the devaluation of human life among developed nations am an american but was raised in europe where the worst thing that can happen to somebody is get his car broken into or have his pocket picked by slaves or russian refugees of cource there will be some nutcases but thats extremely rare in greece you can walk through any neighborhood at any time during the night without even worrying in germany you can walk the sidewalks at am and not even look behind your back at the sanitation crews that clean the streets to sparkling cleen whoever of you have been there you know what am saying dont have any easy answers but if we as nation do some selfcritisism we might get somewhere of course these postings sould be in soc culture us but if we reduce crime here it ll mean less car insurance rates thus we could spend more money on modifing our cars now my posting is rec autos tech revelant vlasis theodore software engineer idb mobile communications sig under development xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech alt autos antique rec autos antique newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech alt autos antique rec autos antique path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech usenet ufl edu news miami edu cybernet news from vlasis cybernet cse fau edu vlasis theodore subject re warning please read message id izo42b3w165w cybernet cse fau edu sender news cybernet cse fau edu organization cybernet bbs boca raton florida references neilson apr15135919 seoul mpr ca date fri apr gmt lines neilson seoul mpr ca robert neilson writes sorry for the auto content but that is why low abiding citizens should have the power to protect themselve and their property using deadly force if necessary anywhere threat is imminent steve heracleous you do have the power steve you can do it why don you why don you go shoot some kids who are tossing rocks onto cars make sure you do good job though don miss cause like they have big rocks and take it from me those kids are mean ditto you dont do it yourself nobody will unless am behind you so both of us can shoot them bastards xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net spool mu edu uunet newsgate watson ibm com yktnews watson ibm com sernews tomcat raleigh ibm com europa from europa tomcat raleigh ibm com welch bryan subject re changing oil by self sender news sernews raleigh ibm com message id apr16 sernews raleigh ibm com date fri apr gmt distribution usa references apr14 lmpsbbs co apr15 magnus acs ohio state edu apr15 dsd es com apr15 rtfm mlb fl us nntp posting host tomcat raleigh ibm com organization ibm research triangle park north carolina lines in article apr15 rtfm mlb fl us gwalker rtfm mlb fl us grayson walker writes why crawl under the car at all have machine got for my boat that pulls the oil out under suction through the dip stick tube it does an excellent job and by moving the suction tube around you can get more old oil out than by using the drain plug think paid at marine the oil goes into steel gal can wait until it cools and decant into your favorite device use soft drink bottles easy to take them down to the local oil recycle center this does sound good but heard it tends to leave more grit etc in the oil pan also ve been told to change the old when it hot before the grit has much time to settle any opinions bryan welch amateur radio n0sfg internet europa vnet ibm com best bwelch scf nmsu edu everything will perish save love and music scots gaelic proverb disclaimer it all opinion everything so there xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech alt autos antique rec autos antique newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech alt autos antique rec autos antique path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet newsgate watson ibm com yktnews watson ibm com sernews tomcat raleigh ibm com europa from europa tomcat raleigh ibm com welch bryan subject re warning please read sender news sernews raleigh ibm com message id apr16 sernews raleigh ibm com date fri apr gmt references qh336innfl5 cs utk edu c5joit e31 bcstec ca boeing com nntp posting host tomcat raleigh ibm com organization ibm research triangle park north carolina keywords brick truck danger lines in article c5joit e31 bcstec ca boeing com neil bcstec ca boeing com neil williams writes larose austin cs utk edu brian larose writes this just warning to everybody on the net watch out for folks standing next to the road or on overpasses they can cause serious harm to you and your car just cliff notes version of my story follows pm last night was travelling on the interstate here in knoxville was taking an offramp exit to another interstate and my wife suddenly screamed and something large hit the side of my truck we slowed down but after looking back to see the vandals standing there we drove on to the police station she did get good look at the guy and saw him cock his arm with something the size of cinderblock but never saw him we are very lucky the truck sits up high on the road if it would have hit her window it would have killed her the police are looking for the guy but in all likelyhood he is gone am very good driver knock on wood but it was night time and never saw the guy the police said they thought the motive was to hit the car have us stop to check out the damage and then jump us and take the truck please be aware of folks and for your own good please don stop peace brian larose larose cs utk edu essary rd knoxville tn as long as we re on the subject several years ago myself and two others were riding in the front of toyota pickup heading south on interstate north of seattle wa someone threw rock of an overpass and hit our windshield not by accident sure it was impossible to get up to the overpass quickly to see who did it we figured it was kids reported it and left couple of years ago it happend again and killed guy at my company he was in his mid fourties and left behind wife and children turned out there was reformatory for juviniles few blocks away they caught the year old that did it they put cover over the overpass what else could they do don think ll over forget this story in des moines iowa about year ago some kid dropped rock from an overpass and hit car just behind the windshield it put dent in the roof so guess was lucky it hit metal it frustrating that we can do much bother the city government to put covers on all overpasses slow down speed up bit when driving under all overpasses in the city like the first better but that will take time and lots of people talking to the city governments just another bryan welch amateur radio n0sfg internet europa vnet ibm com best bwelch scf nmsu edu everything will perish save love and music scots gaelic proverb disclaimer it all opinion everything so there path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet news centerline com jimf from jimf centerline com jim frost newsgroups rec autos subject re too fast date apr gmt organization centerline software inc lines distribution world message id qmcih dhs armory centerline com references qg19v ju umcc umcc umich edu apr14 cactus org bob1 cos apr15 cactus org nntp posting host boyle cactus org craig boyle writes the quality of autobahns is something of myth the road surface isn much different to typical tx freeway they are better in terms of lighting safety signs roadmarkings etc they light the highways in texas funny everywhere else ve been they only light em at junctions won even get into how much road markings vary between states and localities except to say that there are some areas where markings are essentially nonexistant than most of the roads here dip in the asphalt that you test your shocks on at will kill you at don get me wrong love to it would have to be quite severe don recall any us freeway without road damage warnings that would regard as unsafe at in any decent well damped car suspect you have very limited experience us freeways vary dramatically particularly between states can name number of interstate highways in various parts of the country where would be very optimistic in any car not sure what you call quite severe in terms of road deviations but suspect every single bridge junction on i84 through ct would be considered so they re hard to take at mph that not the only interstate ve seen with such deviations but it one drive frequently texas is pretty much an edge case you can assume that everywhere has roads in such good condition such flat terrain and such wide open spaces it just ain so jim frost jimf centerline com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net agate dog ee lbl gov csa3 lbl gov jtchew from jtchew csa3 lbl gov ad absurdum per aspera newsgroups rec autos subject re it rush was re too fast date apr pst organization lawrence berkeley laboratory berkeley ca usa lines distribution usa message id apr199310391109 csa3 lbl gov references c5lobl ddw mentor cc purdue edu unisql uucp c5r43y f0d mentor cc purdue edu unisql uucp nntp posting host news software vax vms vnews wharf wrat rites they were designed for speeds of upwards of forget the exact spec but for military vehicles that in dodge powerwagon not in ford taurus ever once in while you still see reference to the super slab system as interstate and defense highways but whether the military has much of anything that goes on the road is another matter few of their most whomped up diesel trucks maybe load permitting the military surplus stuff ve driven jeep classic willys kaiser amc pre independent suspension and power wagons slant in crew cab pickup weren exactly congenial at highway speeds and wouldn swear any of them would do except as bedload on semi you just gotta love the standard military tire too or at least the one they used to use designed circa ww ii as compromise between traction in icky sticky goo and longevity on sharp rocks and so forth it quite ill adapted to high speeds on civilian roadways for those who can remember what they look like imagine mountain bike tire with road rib in the middle scaled up to car size oh yeah and narrow too one of the standard mods for civilizing surplus jeep was to install tires and wheels that reflected some of the advancements made in ride and handling since day but the point made by wharfie and others still stands if you re going to do in mil spec power wagon or jeep or tank transporter or other unwieldy rubber tired vehicle anywhere suggest the american interstate your safe speed there tends to be limited more by your car and skills road maintenance and the swarms of fools around you the roads were designed for going like the devil naturally neither nor my employer advocates unsafe or unlawful driving joe just another personal opinion from the people republic of berkeley newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net saturn caps maine edu dartvax stefan gorsch from stefan gorsch dartmouth edu stefan gorsch subject importing volvo message id c5rd2l gp dartvax dartmouth edu posted from internews1 b10 newshost dartmouth edu sender news dartvax dartmouth edu the news manager organization dartmouth college hanover nh date tue apr gmt lines well afraid the time has come my rice burner has finally died always promised my wife that we would do scandanavian tour when my car died and pick up volvo in sweden drive it around and then import it home can anyone give me advice on feasibility and relative costs references where might learn more personal experience please email thanks newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net noc near net uunet mdisea mdd comm mot com ceng from ceng mdd comm mot com curtis eng subject selling car through car hunter message id apr20 mdd comm mot com sender news mdd comm mot com organization motorola mobile data division seattle wa distribution na date tue apr gmt lines anybody got any good bad experience with selling their car through one of those car hunters selling dodge stealth and was contacted by this company called the markham group based out of illinois they said they have buyers in my area interested in my car or they wouldn be talking to me they talked to me for good minutes asking everything about my car and said they could sell it no problem they guaranteed that if they didn sell my car in days would get my money back and since charged it protected by federal law which states that if not satisfied would get refund which is true they federal expressed all the paperwork to me which had contract stating their policy about the days and such called up the bbb in illinois and they do not have file on them which is good news so they definitely are legitimate company but so far it been over week and have gotten nothing so how effective are these types of companies anybody care to share their experiences newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com darwin sura net sgiblab wetware spunky redbrick com psinntp psinntp telxon mis telxon com joes from joes telxon mis telxon com joe staudt subject re trading in car that not paid for pointers please message id apr20 telxon mis telxon com organization telxon corporation references fibercom com fibercom com distribution usa date tue apr gmt lines in article fibercom com rrg rtp fibercom com rhonda gaines writes planning on purchasing new car and will be trading in my mazda mx dx ve still got more years to pay on it how does that get taken into account when purchase my new car does the dealership pay off my car and add on the amount they had to pay to the purchase price of the new car someone please explain this to me if you don already know it you should call the bank credit union finance company that holds the loan on your present car and get the current payoff cost if you are trading in your current car on the new car subtract the payoff amount from the trade in the dealer is giving you if this turns out to be negative number you need to reconsider the deal subtract this difference from the price of the new car this is the size of the loan you will need for the new car the dealer will take care of paying off the loan on your old car out of the money you give them when you pick up your new car at least that how it worked for me years ago in ohio thanks rhonda joseph staudt telxon corp joes telxon com box usenet is like tetris for people who still akron oh remember how to read x3522 heller newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com hpscit sc hp com hpuerca atl hp com sjp from sjp hpuerca atl hp com steve phillips subject re ford and the automobile message id c5scb2 mzb hpuerca atl hp com date tue apr gmt references c5qv43 bnq eis calstate edu organization hewlett packard narc atlanta newsreader tin pl5 lines ford and his automobile need information on whether ford is partially responsible for all of the car accidents and the depletion of the ozone layer also any other additional information will be greatly appreciated thanks sssssoooooooooooo its all his fault thank god louis chevrolet is innocent and that guy diesel he otto feel guilty stephen phillips atlanta response center atlanta ga home of the braves xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt parents teens rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net agate anarres cs berkeley edu bh from bh anarres cs berkeley edu brian harvey newsgroups alt parents teens rec autos subject re warning please read date apr gmt organization university of california berkeley lines message id r1d62 d6s agate berkeley edu references c5r1iy v0 ssd intel com apr199316162857 erich triumf ca rfelixc5sjpe bq8 netcom com nntp posting host anarres cs berkeley edu keywords brick rock danger gun violent teenagers rfelix netcom com robbie felix writes how about the thousands of kind teenagers who volunteer at local agencies to help children seniors the homeless hear hear thanks robbie you also don read that much about violence against teenagers such as george bush burying alive tens of thousands of unarmed iraqi year olds who were trying to surrender with bulldozers on the other hand think it is true without singling out teenagers for blame that violence is more socially acceptable than it used to be those of us who like to discourage violence have plenty of work to do with people of all ages path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net noc near net transfer stratus com sw stratus com tszeto from tszeto sneezy ts stratus com tommy szeto newsgroups rec autos subject water in trunk of probe date apr gmt organization stratus computer inc lines sender tszeto sw stratus com tommy szeto distribution world message id r1crn transfer stratus com nntp posting host sneezy ts stratus com water gradually builds up in the trunk of my friend ford probe every once in while we would have to remove the spare and scoop out the water under the plywood carpet cover on the trunk would guess this usually happens after good thunder storm few qs is this common problem where are the drain holes located for the hatch thanks for any info tom tom szeto no not those peanuts the ones on the tszeto sneezy ts stratus com bottom ggnuuaahuuhh include disclaimer homer simpson newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net agate linus linus mitre org frieda rll from rll frieda mitre org roberto landrau subject re eagle talon tsi lemon message id apr20 linus mitre org sender news linus mitre org news service nntp posting host frieda mitre org organization research computer facility mitre corporation bedford ma references u40348 uicvm uic edu date tue apr gmt lines in rec autos jay lorenzana u40348 uicvm uic edu wrote dear netters am looking to buy used eagle talon or tsi awd would be concerned about how the car was driven and how well it was maintained own turbocharged one and would never buy turbocharged vehicle unless knew the owner and his her driving maintenance habits question is that the tsi awd was mentioned in the april consumer reports to car to avoid have been wondering about that myself the awd models and the were identical except for the abs option in particular the manual transmission yes some owners had problems with the transaxles using synthetic lubricants in the transaxles solved the problem in most cases the problem was not unique to the awds however it was common to all models the galant vr4 and gsx had the same transaxle but didn see those listed in cr electrical system don know of any major complaints in this area except that the battery that was installed at the factory had low current rating and brakes were below par in both models the first fwd models those built before may were recalled for brake upgrades some fwd and awd owners had problems with warped rotors those of us who insist on using manual torque wrenches every time the lug nuts are tightened have never had problem friend of mine ownes tsi awd and he has had brake jobs pads can refer you to someone who has gone through set of pads in one day it all depends on how you drive it seems that most owners have been getting between on set of pads one stuck valve first time hear about problem with the valve train on these cars other than timing belt failures and some clutch transmission problem something about sticking grinding into second gear this doesn seem too bad if one beats on his car if your friend beats on the car then his unit is not representative sample of the car reliability my suggestion is instead of listening to the useless consumer reports talk to several owners the mailing list may be the best way to reach few of them am willing to suffer reliability for speed and looks seems you have to pay big buck if you want all three anyway can anyone please let me know how you like your talon and any problems you may have had and if the repairs are worth it if humor impaired skip to theend no matter how much you pay you won get all three examples nsx reliability and looks ferrari reliability yeah right speed and looks theend the opinions stated above are not necessarily my employer roberto landrau kc1yp landrau mitre org rll linus mitre org the mitre corporation bedford ma rll linus uucp newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu utnut torn nott bnrgate bcars267 bnr ca tcorkum from tcorkum bnr ca trevor corkum subject is car saftey important message id apr20 bnr ca sender news bnr ca usenet nntp posting host reply to tcorkum bnr ca trevor corkum organization bell northern research ltd date tue apr gmt lines was recently thumbing through the lemon aid new car guide what found was car would be given recommended under the picture while few sentences later noting how driver and passenger were virtually guaranteed to be killed in front end collision the most highly recommended small car the civic has the worst crash rating of all of the small cars listed there were many such cases of great vehicles where you wouldn survive an accident is it only me or is safety not one of the most important factors when buying car newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu lll winken llnl gov iggy gw vitalink com wetware spunky redbrick com psinntp psinntp telxon mis telxon com joes from joes telxon mis telxon com joe staudt subject re renting from alamo message id apr20 telxon mis telxon com organization telxon corporation references apr20 ericsson se date tue apr gmt lines in article apr20 ericsson se etxmst sta ericsson se writes hello netters visiting the us from sweden in august will probably rent chevy beretta from alamo ve been quoted for week for additional days this would include free driving distance but not local taxes baltimore they also told me all insurance thats necessary is included but doubt that cause friend rented car last year and it turned out he needed lot more insurance than what included in the base price but on the other hand he didn rent it from alamo does anyone have some info on this is rip off no that sounds pretty reasonable for that car and that city probability that ll be needing more insurance unless you have an accident you won need more if you plan on paying for the car with credit card check and see if your card automatically covers rental cars also your own auto insurance may cover rental cars also most rental companies here offer extra insurance when you rent and require you to initial in several spots if you don want it the credit cards and personal auto insurance provide the same sort of coverage that the rental agency is trying to sell have never rented from alamo so don know if they follow this same practice is the beretta good rental car yes it is compact door probably bit dull performance and acceleration wise but very adequate it will have an automatic transmission am fm stereo air conditioning and possibly power windows and door locks joe joseph staudt telxon corp joes telxon com box usenet is like tetris for people who still akron oh remember how to read x3522 heller xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu misc forsale rec autos rec autos sport newsgroups misc forsale rec autos rec autos sport path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net agate dog ee lbl gov network ucsd edu teetot acusd edu quill from quill teetot acusd edu subject convertable for sale in san diego message id apr20 teetot acusd edu organization usd distribution usa date tue apr gmt lines am selling my fiat spyder this sleek little convertable has served me well through my past year in san diego but am going away for the summer and have nowhere to keep it so on the aution block it goes fiat sport white body white hard top refurbished ivory convertable top refurbished new black interior come with high performance exhaust system larger rebuilt engine instead of car mats smog checked registered until this is the ultimate in san diego driving will not guarantee that this car will attract people to you of the opposite gender but they will ask for ride one warning this is high performance italian sports car if you want boring little set of wheels this is not the car for you this car requires care it has manual choke speed manual transmision manual throttle control and even manual wiper pump if you know how to drive then and only then can you appreciate this car feel free to inquire the price is and all inspection has to be in the san diego area since school keeps me here all the time quill quill have you looked at your hands no mean ph really looked at your hands doonesbury path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu malgudi oar net news ysu edu yfn ysu edu ak954 from ak954 yfn ysu edu albion bowers newsgroups rec autos subject re manual shift bigots date apr gmt organization st elizabeth hospital youngstown oh lines message id r1fir hdn news ysu edu references c5r4kk guk news rich bnr ca c5liw2 cax news rich bnr ca apr17 engr washington edu crh re reply to ak954 yfn ysu edu albion bowers nntp posting host yfn ysu edu in previous article eric youngblood says in article apr19 engr washington edu eliot stalfos engr washington edu eliot writes race car stuff deleted back to the f1 stuff for second note that the auto tranny in f1 still shifts at the driver command not some preselected schedule the driver still controls the shifting not the transmission now there is no dispute that in production cars automatics are inherently more lossy than manuals that is in theory my point all along is that whatever mechanical advantages manual has over an automatic can very easily be lost by driver who isn skillful or one thing that gives an automatic an advantage at launch is the fact that it has torque converter vs clutch know this sounds strange but torque converter multiplies the engine output when launching it functions as sort of limited continuously variable transmission typically you get torque multiplication of to times depending on the stall speed have yet to see torque multiplier installed on production automobile such systems do exist but none are presently installed in production autos that am aware of these are commonly called viscous drive cvts or fluidic amplifiers contrasted to clutch which merely slips when feathered result is no tq mult what the convertor does allow is for the engine to be closer to its torque peak during the launch before clutched car can fully engage it driveline chevy proved it many years ago with the camaro ets and terminal mile times were close enough tpo be identical for speed and auto cars note that this is also the major reason that an auto car can get away with fewer gears than manual the slip in the convertor makes up for the fewer ratios and before everyone starts yelling about the proposed sspeed autos soon to be out note that some manufacturers are using speed manulas now once past lauch however the converter begins coupling and the tq multiplication effect is reduced but by then you should be on the cam correct al bowers dod alfa ducati hobie kottke blad iaido nasa well goodness sakes don you know that girls can play guitar mary chapin carpenter path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu bert eecs uic edu uicvm uic edu u37955 organization university of illinois at chicago academic computer center date tue apr cdt from u37955 uicvm uic edu message id u37955 uicvm uic edu newsgroups rec autos subject internal leak in carburetor lines hi my friend toyota tercel accelerates by itself without using the gas peddel the repairman said it has internal leak of air in the carburetor and needs new carburetor costs she likes to know if it is possible to fix the problem without replacing the whole carburetor thank you newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com hpscit sc hp com cupnews0 cup hp com news1 boi hp com jackw from jackw boi hp com jack wood subject bbb autoline arbitration sender news boi hp com news server project message id c5sp68 hx1 boi hp com date tue apr gmt organization hewlett packard boise idaho newsreader tin version pl6 keywords bbb arbitration lemon lines my bbb autoline arbitration experience is over the outcome was decidedly mixed won the battle but lost the war the arbitrator found that the car was defective but decided to offer repurchase well below market value at the time of the hearing average retail on my truck in the nada book was but the decision was for wrote letter to the council of better business bureaus pointing out the fact that if you have an automobile that does not depreciate rapidly the manufacturer has no incentive to deal with you there is no way that the manufacturer can loose because they can turn around and sell the vehicle at profit if the consumer is awarded repurchase the attitude of chevrolet representative at the hearing tends to support this point of view he was totally unprepared and did not seem to take the proceeding very seriously decided to take the repurchase even though am getting totally screwed on the price will not have to deal with continuing repairs or selling lemon myself and have no case for civil suit based on the idaho lemon law am planning to send letter to my elected representatives telling them how utterly ridiculous the idaho lemon law is the law allows for use deduction equal to the irs mileage allowance as if chevrolet were buying my gas and paying for my insurance summary of the case in may bought new ton hd chevrolet pickup between may and december this vehicle required repair after repair systems that required attention included the transmission heater fan paint suspension and motor the main problem was the five speed manual transmission they could not install non defective transmission in at least four attempts so in summary it is possible to get repurchase but you are going to get screwed on the price unless you paid too much in the first place or if your car happens to be model that depreciates rapidly jackw hpdmd48 boi hp com xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt parents teens rec autos newsgroups alt parents teens rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net gatech taco storrs from storrs eos ncsu edu jerry storrs subject re warning please read message id apr20 ncsu edu originator storrs c20002 rd che ncsu edu keywords brick rock danger gun violent teenagers sender news ncsu edu usenet news system reply to storrs eos ncsu edu jerry storrs organization north carolina state university project eos references c5joit e31 bcstec ca boeing com apr199309481599 erich triumf ca qs4a9 f87 bigboote wpi edu c5r1iy v0 ssd intel com apr199316162857 erich triumf ca date tue apr gmt lines in article apr199316162857 erich triumf ca music erich triumf ca fred bach writes xref taco alt parents teens rec autos path taco gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu caen destroyer cs ubc ca unixg ubc ca erich triumf ca music from music erich triumf ca fred bach newsgroups alt parents teens rec autos subject re warning please read date apr pst organization triumf tri university meson facility lines distribution world message id apr199316162857 erich triumf ca references c5joit e31 bcstec ca boeing com apr199309481599 erich triumf ca qs4a9 f87 bigboote wpi edu c5r1iy v0 ssd intel com nntp posting host erich triumf ca summary violent teenagers and victims need help keywords brick rock danger gun violent teenagers news software vax vms vnews in article c5r1iy v0 ssd intel com jrowell ssd intel com janet rowell writes could we plase cease this discussion fail to see why people feel the need to expound upon this issue for days and days on end these areas are not meant for this type of discussion if you feel the need to do such things please take your thought elsewhere thanks just want to second this request value this net group as one where people focus on solving problems and go out of their way to be respectful of differences the hostility expressed in the original posting feels like an assault thanks jan exactly my point there is lot of hostility to and from teenagers look sent these posts here to alt parents teens with copy to rec autos since you people in this group may have the best advice for and experience with troubled teenagers if you follow the news for the northwest usa you will have heard that group of year old boys barely out of the teens certainly their outlook was developed during their teens just shot and killed an innocent little girl riding in car in the seattle area when her mother who was driving honked her horn at the car with the boys in it this is really upsetting and makes my stomach turn as it would any parent doesn your heart just go out to that poor mother yes fred my heart and prayers go out to the mother and others who have been victims of these and other senseless crimes you folks in this group have responsibility to offer any good advice that you may have suspect lots of people all over the world will read and appreciate your comments however feel that you have missed the point of the previous postings see top your statement of responsibility is felt as an attack towards the members of this group you are attempting to make the members of this group be required to answer the only people who should make statement are people who have experienced the problem and found workable solution teenagers both drive cars and are involved in automotive vandalism and crime maybe someone on this newsgroup has had specific experience in dealing with violent teenage offenders like these kids are at the same time maybe you would have some good advice for those hostile people who sense that are now the potential victims maybe you would have some good advice for them on how not to pay back and or not make the situation worse maybe you have some good advice for local authorities or schools where this problem is prevalent but then again maybe you re not interested many people are interested but have no input will restate that your last sentence here is seen as an attack on the members of this group if people have input they will give it if they do not you should not make them feel compelled sp to respond if you wish to continue this conversation please send mail do not repost or attempt to bait me will not make another post and may make the same suggestion to other group members on this matter thanks in advance for your help if we get any btw your welcome jerry storrs system network manager why do you look for the living dept of chemical engineering ncsu among the dead he is not here storrs che ncsu edu preferred he is risen storrs eos ncsu edu luke the lord is risen indeed any statement made is the explicit belief of the writer and not the employer path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net uunet tinman2 dspalme from dspalme mke ab com diane palme x2617 newsgroups rec autos subject re wife wants convertible date apr gmt organization allen bradley co lines message id r1a9hinn2u4 scarecrow mke ab com references wr62b1w165w vllyoak resun com nntp posting host tinman mke ab com newsreader tin pl4 nuet ke pts mot com keith nuetzman x3153 p7625 writes help my wife has informed me that she wants convertible for her next car jp vllyoak resun com jeff perry writes fyi just last week the pbs show motor week gave the results of what they thought were the best cars for in the convertible category the honda civic del sol achieved this honor the one down side see with the car is its interior it looks inexpensive and dull own del sol and must vouch for the interior really looks snazzy when the top is off looks lot better in person than on the television saw that motorweek as well needless to say was smiling bit by the time it was over watch out for that darned convertible tan tho diane dspalme mke ab comm path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet news tek com gvgpsa gvg tek com gold gvg tek com pequod jimd from jimd pequod gvg tek com jim delwiche newsgroups rec autos subject re vw passat advice sought message id gold gvg tek com date apr gmt references apr remus rutgers edu sender news gold gvg tek com organization grass valley group grass valley ca lines in article apr remus rutgers edu hong remus rutgers edu hyunki hong writes am currently in the car market and would like opinions on vw passat glx how does it compare to toyota camry thought the car looked very solid stable and european only disappointment so far is that that it doesn offer an airbao my next question is why isn vw offering automobiles with airbags should pay the extra three thousand for bmw is even though it is smaller and less powerful than than the passat think vw got caught out on the airbag thing it only been in the last year or two that airbags have become significant selling feature vw assumed that automatic belts would satisfy govt requirements for passive restraint but didn guess that the merican consumer would actually make buy decisions based on the presence of an airbag vw is really hurting right now in the us market check out the article in last week autoweek about the crisis at vw golfs and jettas will be coming from the plant in mexico but they don have the quality at that facility as per normal vw practice the us launch of the jetta iii is delayed again and again until good chunk of the useful life of the design is spent think that passats come from germany so there is not the same quality and availability issue it nice car with nice engine whether vw will be player in the us market in two year time is different question ll leave the passat camry flamewar for someone else xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech sci materials newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech sci materials path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com ux1 cso uiuc edu news cso uiuc edu uxa cso uiuc edu tspila from tspila uxa cso uiuc edu tim spila romulan subject re auto air conditioning without freon date wed apr gmt message id c5u5fy hvx news cso uiuc edu distribution usa references apr199313375138 erich triumf ca apr21 ntuix ntu ac sg sender usenet news cso uiuc edu net noise owner organization university of illinois at urbana lines in article apr21 ntuix ntu ac sg mgqlu ntuix ntu ac sg max lu writes we are working on gas solid adsorption air con system for auto applications in this kind of system the energy for regenerating the adsorbent is from the exhaust gas anyone interested in this mail email me or follow up this thread we may have discussion on prospects of this technology ok ll bite how is this supposed to work tim newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester rochester galileo cc rochester edu uhura cc rochester edu awds ltd from awds ltd uhura cc rochester edu adam edwards subject re chevy sprint message id apr20 galileo cc rochester edu sender news galileo cc rochester edu nntp posting host uhura cc rochester edu organization university of rochester rochester new york references wfnmbjg00wboe3l2c0 andrew cmu edu date tue apr gmt lines in wfnmbjg00wboe3l2c0 andrew cmu edu srinagesh gavirneni sg48 andrew cmu edu writes have chevy sprint with and doors it odometer turned and the sensor light started blinking went to the dealer and he said it was maintenance light saying need to change the oxygen sensor he said it is to be changed every but since bought the car when it had don know if the same thing happened at and he quoted for the part and to install it the part cost outside but the mechanic went to could not fix it saying the sensor is placed too deep in the engine parts he suggested wait till it malfunctions before do anything if anyone out there owns chevy sprint want to know how they got their oxygen sensors changed also did you face any problem with fixing it without the dealer help also what are the results of the oxygen sensor malfunction any help would be greatly apprecisted thanks sold my sprint last april with on it driven it since the previous july putting miles on it the sensor light used to light up regularly starting about miles after bought it my brother and rebuilt the engine but used all of the original equipment so suppose the sensor could have used replacement performance hah if you could call it that did not change perhaps emissions increased but how much emissions could ca registered cylinder engine produce that was neat car held the engine block easily in one hand has anyone ever driven the turbo variant just curious adam edwards awds ltd uhura cc rochester edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu pitt edu dsinc netnews upenn edu netnews cc lehigh edu ns1 cc lehigh edu rwf2 from rwf2 ns1 cc lehigh edu robert william fusi newsgroups rec autos subject re getting car need opinions message id apr20 ns1 cc lehigh edu date apr gmt organization lehigh university lines in article qqp2o ba usenet ins cwru edu cf947 cleveland freenet edu chun ung wan writes in previous article ip02 ns1 cc lehigh edu danny phornprapha says have as my budget looking for sports or gt car what do you think would be the best buy looking for specific models thanks danny hey you programmers out there danny phornprapha please consider this ip02 lehigh edu bugs are another endangered earth lucc student konsultant species needing your protection work for an all out sports car go for the rx without the sports suspension which is too stiff for little more practicality and more comfort the nissan zx turbo is good buy and for good dose of luxury the lexus sc300 is perfect with manual transmission of course however the toyota supra is coming out soon and if you like it looks the performance is supposed to be great almost race car like don particulary like the mitsubishi gt or the dodge stealths as they are too heavy and aren very nimble handlers for sports car motion picture major at the brooks institute of photography ca santa barbara and foreign student from kuala lumpur malaysia the mind is the forerunner of all states the only thing about the zx turbo and new supra is they re about or more over his budget be good and you will be lonely mark twain path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com elroy jpl nasa gov ames cronkite cisco com kmac from kmac cisco com karl elvis macrae newsgroups rec autos subject sport utility vehical comparisons any opinions date apr gmt organization tattooed love boys lines distribution world message id r1i7minn4n4 cronkite cisco com nntp posting host glare cisco com just read articals on this in road and track and car and driver is that one mag or two and was wondering if people out there have any opinions that differed from what these mags have to say looking at the following three suv anyone who driven all three have any strong opinions ford explorer toyota runner nissan pathfinder currently leaning toward the toyota cause ve had big success with toyota trucks in the past and cause think it the best looking of the three but thought see if anyone has any strong opinions thanks karl karl elvis macrae software release support cisco systems kmac cisco com or batman cisco com dod fj1200 shovels and rakes and implements of destruction arlo guthrie path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net news centerline com jimf from jimf centerline com jim frost newsgroups rec autos subject re is car saftey important date apr gmt organization centerline software inc lines message id r1jr9 m1v armory centerline com references apr20 bnr ca nntp posting host tcorkum bnr ca trevor corkum writes is it only me or is safety not one of the most important factors when buying car it depends on your priorities lot of people put higher priorities on gas mileage and cost than on safety buying unsafe econoboxes instead of volvos personally take middle ground the only thing really look for is three point seatbelt and mph bumpers figure that mph collisions into brick walls aren common enough for me to spend that much extra money for protection but there are lots of low speed collisions that do worry me jim frost jimf centerline com newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu moe ksu ksu edu osuunx ucc okstate edu constellation uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison from callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james callison subject re warning please read sender usenet constellation ecn uoknor edu usenet administrator message id c5srib ah constellation ecn uoknor edu date tue apr gmt references apr15 icf hrb com c5k9m5 ku constellation ecn apr19 magnus acs ohio state edu nntp posting host uokmax ecn uoknor edu organization engineering computer network university of oklahoma norman ok usa lines in article apr19 magnus acs ohio state edu bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu brian queiser writes anything if he hadn emptied his gun into the asshole texas it whole other country that reminds me of one of texas ads you hear guy speaking in french like it letter home then the french moves to the background and french accented voice come to the foreground talking about how he went walking on the beach and it felt so much like home that he decided to take his shoes off and the rest of his clothes it ended with please send bail on an rec autos note does anyone carry gun on them or keep one in their car which is bad idea isn it if you work in bad part of town or regularly go through one is this loaded question normally have an unloaded colt delta in my glove box with loaded magazine handy which is perfectly legal in oklahoma for those times that travelling inter state keep an unloaded magnum revolver in the glove box with speed loader in my pocket which is legal everywhere under federal law illinois state police be hanged as ve said before this is stricly for defense my insurance will pay to replace my car but only have one life james james callison microcomputer coordinator of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer not an engineer but play one at work the forecast calls for thunder bird sc it hell of thing killing man you take away all he has and all he ever gonna have will munny unforgiven newsgroups rec autos rec autos tec path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu moe ksu ksu edu osuunx ucc okstate edu constellation uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison from callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james callison subject re slick any good sender usenet constellation ecn uoknor edu usenet administrator message id c5srrr hi constellation ecn uoknor edu date tue apr gmt references c5pahe g9q murdoch acc virginia edu nntp posting host uokmax ecn uoknor edu organization engineering computer network university of oklahoma norman ok usa lines hmmm was listening to the local radio expert who is amazingly enough an honest to god expert tm it amazing what he knows and he said that based on his conversations with the inventor of slick50 who is no longer with the comapny due to some kind of conflict he avoids it like the plague he does recommend other teflon based type oil additives though james james callison microcomputer coordinator of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer not an engineer but play one at work the forecast calls for thunder bird sc it hell of thing killing man you take away all he has and all he ever gonna have will munny unforgiven newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu usenet coe montana edu news washington edu ns1 nodak edu plains nodak edu bell from bell plains nodak edu robert bell subject re info opinions wanted on cars in this article sender usenet ns1 nodak edu usenet login message id c5st37 hf3 ns1 nodak edu date tue apr gmt distribution na references c5d0hf iwz news cso uiuc edu fibercom com apr13 magnus acs ohio state edu nntp posting host plains nodak edu organization north dakota higher education computing network lines in article apr13 magnus acs ohio state edu jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu john nielsen writes in article fibercom com rrg rtp fibercom com rhonda gaines writes in the market for new car currently own mazda mx dx which has served me just fine however like to get door car since don relish the thought of moving carseat around in door car my criteria are door am fm cassette quick acceleration cruise control decent rear seat legroom my husband is footer it must also be under preferably closer to the range which will probably rule out the accord the cars that have caught my eye are toyota corolla toyata camry mazda pontiac grand am pontiac grand prix honda accord and civic if it roomy enough and still comes in door model hyundai sonata and maybe even small oldsmobile although not the achieva all opinions benchmarks recommendations etc are welcome really wouldn consider the grand am achevia skylark all the same since they are very bad in frontal collsions and don have any other really outstanding qualities john really must object to that last statement having lot of experience with grand am coupe can firmly state that they do have lot of outstanding qualities very reliable throughout great layout of controls and components very roomy considering the exterior size of the car they look sharp inside and out the v6 that drive has exceptional power and drivability compared to other similar cars that have driven all in all it fun to drive dependable and reasonably priced vehicle please don knock it with statement like that unless you back it up with specific reasons why you feel that way rob bell plains nodak edu john nielsen magnus consultant to you baldrick the renaissance was just something that happened to other people wasn it the black adder newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester rochester udel darwin sura net haven umd edu wam umd edu lerxst from lerxst wam umd edu where my thing subject what car is this message id apr20 wam umd edu sender usenet wam umd edu usenet news system nntp posting host rac3 wam umd edu organization university of maryland college park date tue apr gmt lines was wondering if anyone out there could enlighten me on this car saw the other day it was door sports car looked to be from the late early it was called bricklin the doors were really small in addition the front bumper was separate from the rest of the body this is all know if anyone can tellme model name engine specs years of production where this car is made history or whatever info you have on this funky looking car please mail thanks il brought to you by your neighborhood lerxst newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech purdue mentor cc purdue edu feserve cc purdue edu marshatt from marshatt feserve cc purdue edu zauberer subject re warning please read message id c5t0cf j7f mentor cc purdue edu sender news mentor cc purdue edu usenet news organization purdue university references c5k9m5 ku constellation ecn apr19 magnus acs ohio state edu c5srib ah constellation ecn uoknor edu can we please stick to automotive topics thank you date tue apr gmt lines xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos misc forsale newsgroups labs talk ne forsale rec autos misc forsale ny forsale path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net agate linus philabs ajc from ajc philabs philips com alec cameron subject moving sale message id apr20 philabs philips com sender news philabs philips com mr news organization philips laboratories briarcliff manor ny distribution usa date tue apr gmt lines for sale inch magnavox tv vcr combination as new condition new asking singer merritt electronic sewing machine new asking braun multipractic food processor new asking horizon exercise bike asking regina electric broom vacuum cleaner new asking sunbeam handheld electric beaters new asking farberware toaster new asking norelco hot curlers asking norelco spray steam iron new asking magnavox clock radio new asking all appliances in good condition all reasonable offers considered contact alec cameron x6361 alec cameron ajc philabs philips com philips laboratories briarcliff manor new york path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu swrinde network ucsd edu dog ee lbl gov csa3 lbl gov jtchew from jtchew csa3 lbl gov ad absurdum per aspera newsgroups rec autos subject re sport utility vehical comparisons any opinions date apr pst organization lawrence berkeley laboratory berkeley ca usa lines distribution na message id apr199316084452 csa3 lbl gov references r1i7minn4n4 cronkite cisco com apr20 jpl devvax jpl nasa gov nntp posting host news software vax vms vnews just read articals on this in road and track and car and driver is that one mag or two and was wondering if people out there have any opinions that differed from what these mags have to say depending on how you plan to use your suv might recommend also browsing trailer boats and one or more of those pickup shotgun and wd magazines the car rags mostly seem to consider recently graded pea gravel to be offroading and ten sacks of redwood chips to be bedload considering that most of these suvs seem to be used mostly as robust station wagons that probably not bad approach but if your applications are more demanding pick your information sources accordingly of the three vehicles on your short list explorer runner pathfinder recommend the runner as being closely based on rather robust pickup and the explorer for being comfortably carlike don know much about the pathfinder good luck joe just another personal opinion from the people republic of berkeley newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu cactus org boyle from boyle cactus org craig boyle subject re opel owners message id apr20 cactus org organization capital area central texas unix society austin tx references gibbonsa sfu ca c5sxi4 j9b news cso uiuc edu date tue apr gmt lines in article c5sxi4 j9b news cso uiuc edu cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes gibbonsa fraser sfu ca darren gibbons writes looking for information on opel cars now you ask which model well the sad truth is not entirely sure but it two seater with roll over headlights hard top and really sporty looking my friend has one sitting in his yard in really nice condition body wise but he transmission has seized up on him so it hasn run for while does anyone have any info on these cars the engine compartment looks really tight to work on but it is in fine shape and am quite interested in it thanks darren gibbons gibbonsa sfu ca this would be the manta would it not sold through buick dealers in the mid as the price leader sounds lot more like an opel gt to me guess that this is on the same chassis as the kadett rather than the bigger manta but could easily be wrong think the later kadett were sold here as buick opels craig chintan amin llama uiuc edu chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu biosci parc decwrl pa dec com opco enet dec com tomacj from tomacj opco enet dec com thunderbirds are go newsgroups rec autos subject mr2 noisy engine message id r1vofinn871 usenet pa dec com date apr gmt organization digital equipment corporation lines nntp posting host opco day people are there any mr2 owners or motor head gurus out there that know why my mr2 engine sounds noisy the mr2 engine is noisy at the best of times but not even nice nose it one of those very ugly noises do an oil change every months and for about months the engine noise sounds relatively quiet during driving and idling at around the month mark after an oil change ve been tracking this very thoroughly for months now it starts to get that very disgusting noise not so much during driving but more so during idling what its problem also don know if it just me but if noticed little performance drop it just hasn got the acceleration it used to any help tips would be appreciated worried newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester rochester udel gatech swrinde dptspd tamsun tamu edu inetg1 news from james edward burns ddujeb arco com subject re super mega automobile sighting exotics together message id apr20 arco com xxdate tue apr gmt sender news arco com organization arco long beach inc useragent nuntius v1 d15 references qvgg3innl0r phantom gatech edu date tue apr gmt lines in article qvgg3innl0r phantom gatech edu graham thomas grahamt phantom gatech edu writes alright beat this automobile sighting can top that one friday afternoon look out my window in long beach ca what do see but the new ferrari looks like mix between the ragtop testarossa sp and the batman car it seems ferrari had their annual dinner at the place downstairs sweet car newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech purdue mentor cc purdue edu feserve cc purdue edu marshatt from marshatt feserve cc purdue edu zauberer subject re warning please read message id c5t1bm lv mentor cc purdue edu sender news mentor cc purdue edu usenet news organization purdue university references thank you you uucp c5t0cf j7f mentor cc purdue edu distribution usa date tue apr gmt lines sorry about that last post my server neglected to send the message can we please keep this group to automotive topics thank you xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos misc forsale newsgroups labs talk ne forsale rec autos misc forsale ny forsale path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu ux1 cso uiuc edu news cso uiuc edu uxa cso uiuc edu cka52397 from cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc subject re moving sale date tue apr gmt message id c5t36u news cso uiuc edu distribution usa references apr20 philabs philips com sender usenet news cso uiuc edu net noise owner organization university of illinois at urbana lines ajc philabs philips com alec cameron writes for sale norelco hot curlers asking contact alec cameron x6361 alec cameron ajc philabs philips com know this is the but what is man doing with hot curlers chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu news cso uiuc edu uxa cso uiuc edu cka52397 from cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc subject re opel owners date tue apr gmt message id c5t3b2 dg news cso uiuc edu references gibbonsa sfu ca c5sxi4 j9b news cso uiuc edu apr20 cactus org sender usenet news cso uiuc edu net noise owner organization university of illinois at urbana lines boyle cactus org craig boyle writes in article c5sxi4 j9b news cso uiuc edu cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes gibbonsa fraser sfu ca darren gibbons writes looking for information on opel cars now you ask which model well the sad truth is not entirely sure but it two seater with roll over headlights hard top and really sporty looking my friend has one sitting in his yard in really nice condition body wise but he transmission has seized up on him so it hasn run for while does anyone have any info on these cars the engine compartment looks really tight to work on but it is in fine shape and am quite interested in it thanks darren gibbons gibbonsa sfu ca this would be the manta would it not sold through buick dealers in the mid as the price leader sounds lot more like an opel gt to me guess that this is on the same chassis as the kadett rather than the bigger manta but could easily be wrong think the later kadett were sold here as buick opels craig think the manta is the european name for the gt pretty sure that the only kadett sold here were are the pontiac lemans think the gt is just an early to mid manta chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester rochester udel darwin sura net news feed peachnet edu gatech swrinde dptspd tamsun tamu edu news utdallas edu convex convex maynard from maynard convex com mark maynard subject re opel owners message id apr20 convex com sender mark maynard nntp posting host trojan convex com organization convex computer corporation richardson tx usa references gibbonsa sfu ca c5sxi4 j9b news cso uiuc edu distribution rec autos date tue apr gmt disclaimer this message was written by user at convex computer corp the opinions expressed are those of the user and not necessarily those of convex lines in article c5sxi4 j9b news cso uiuc edu cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes gibbonsa fraser sfu ca darren gibbons writes looking for information on opel cars now you ask which model well the sad truth is not entirely sure but it two seater with roll over headlights hard top and really sporty looking gibbonsa sfu ca this would be the manta would it not sold through buick dealers in the mid as the price leader chintan amin sounds more like an opel gt neat cars fun to drive sold through buick from through if remember correctly believe it was in that there were some engine mods made such that parts were not interchangeable with the older models parts are thus much harder to come by for the later models parts in general are not too difficult to find at one time jc whitney carried some stuff including brand new not remfg long block either gt or kharman ghia hmm that spelling looks hosed will be my next project mark path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu milano uudell pensoft usenet from stecz pencom com john steczkowski newsgroups rec autos subject re for hail damage record message id apr20 pencom com date apr gmt references apr19 cactus org sender usenet pencom com usenet pseudo user reply to stecz pencom com distribution usa organization pencom software lines in article apr19 cactus org boyle cactus org craig boyle writes my integra was hit hard in the hailstorm in austin tx the insurance company cut me check for deductible last week is this record anybody else had settlements from the same hailstorm yet craig rumor has it that guy at dell computer had his miata totalled so that would be about john steczkowski stecz pencom com the constitution grants you the right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness it does not attempt to guarantee that everyone will be happy newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net bogus sura net udel rochester galileo cc rochester edu uhura cc rochester edu hm002b from hm002b uhura cc rochester edu hasit mehta subject new talon message id apr21 galileo cc rochester edu keywords regal fiberglass parts sender news galileo cc rochester edu nntp posting host uhura cc rochester edu organization university of rochester rochester ny references qjs0binnfiq faatcrl faa gov date wed apr gmt lines in article is there such thing as the new eagle talon heard from freind that the new talons have been released is this true and if so what are the differences between the and any opinions would appreciate any replies and would also prefer mail thanks hasit mehta university of rochester primus sucks hm002b uhura cc rochester edu do believe in captain crunch for am the frizzle fry xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech sci materials newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech sci materials path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net darwin sura net convex tobias from tobias convex com allen tobias subject re auto air conditioning without freon message id apr22 convex com sender usenet convex com news access account nntp posting host hydra convex com organization convex computer corporation richardson tx usa references apr199313375138 erich triumf ca apr21 ntuix ntu ac sg c5u5fy hvx news cso uiuc edu distribution usa date thu apr gmt disclaimer this message was written by user at convex computer corp the opinions expressed are those of the user and not necessarily those of convex lines in article c5u5fy hvx news cso uiuc edu tspila uxa cso uiuc edu tim spila romulan writes in article apr21 ntuix ntu ac sg mgqlu ntuix ntu ac sg max lu writes we are working on gas solid adsorption air con system for auto applications in this kind of system the energy for regenerating the adsorbent is from the exhaust gas anyone interested in this mail email me or follow up this thread we may have discussion on prospects of this technology ok ll bite how is this supposed to work tim better still years ago they demonstrated cold air system which only used air it was called rovax the unit worked very well the short coming was the seal technology where is it today at xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech sci materials path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov nntp server caltech edu hacker from hacker cco caltech edu jonathan bruce hacker newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech sci materials subject re auto air conditioning without freon rovax date apr gmt organization california institute of technology pasadena lines distribution usa message id r7b41innnq1 gap caltech edu references apr199313375138 erich triumf ca apr21 ntuix ntu ac sg c5u5fy hvx news cso uiuc edu apr22 convex com nntp posting host sandman caltech edu tobias convex com allen tobias writes better still years ago they demonstrated cold air system which only used air it was called rovax the unit worked very well the short coming was the seal technology where is it today as recall from reading posts here while back rovax rovacs died because it was larger and noisier than the competing cheap r12 systems of it day probably case of bad timing think the system would have better chance today now that r12 systems are on death row but investors may be hard to come by second time jon hacker get the os march beta cd rom caltech pasadena ca for call ibm os2 hacker tumbler ridge caltech edu read about it in comp os os2 beta xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet spool mu edu agate linus progress damelio from damelio progress com stephen amelio subject re changing oil by self message id apr16 progress com sender usenet progress com mr usenet nntp posting host elba organization progress software corp references apr14 cactus org apr14 dsd es com apr14 progress com c5jfxe jp9 megatest com date fri apr gmt lines hanguyen megatest com ha nguyen writes in article apr14 progress com damelio progress com stephen amelio writes bmoss grinch sim es com brent woody moss writes you could take screw driver and hammer and start punching holes in various locations and when some black slippery stuff starts pouring out then you would know that the oil drain plug is nearby within foot or two anyway close the holes with toilet paper before refileing with oil though you have to refill the engine with oil wow no wonder can get an engine to last more than my first oil change don forget to punch holes in the radiator too it will spray nice refreshing water on the engine and keep it nice cool steve gee you really make me confused what is radiator where is it located what does it look like will it release any radiation since it sounds like radia tion genera tor when you punch holes of course it releases radiation thats why your car goes faster when you punch the holes in it all that radiation gets on your engine and gives it pep scientific term you get more horsepower torque too if you don know what hp torque are you can read mile long threads on the subject but they are all wrong horsepower is how much power horse can make pulling subaru and torque is name invented by craftsman for wrench steve xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech alt autos antique rec autos antique newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech alt autos antique rec autos antique path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet utcsri utnut torn govonca williac from williac govonca gov on ca chris williams subject re warning please read message id apr16 govonca gov on ca organization government of ontario references apr15 convex com smn42b1w165w cybernet cse fau edu date fri apr gmt lines in smn42b1w165w cybernet cse fau edu vlasis cybernet cse fau edu vlasis theodore writes tobias convex com allen tobias writes in article apr15 virginia edu ejv2j virginia edu erik vel this happened about year ago on the washington dc beltway snot nosed drunken kids decided it would be really cool to throw huge rocks down on cars from an overpass four or five cars were hit there were several serious injuries and sadly small girl sitting in the front seat of one of them was struck in the head by one of the larger rocks don recall if she made it but think she was comatose for month or so and doctors weren holding out hope that she live what the hell is happening to this great country of ours can see boyhood pranks of peeing off of bridges and such but pound rocks has our society really stooped this low erik velapold society as we have known it it coming apart at the seams the basic reason is that human life has been devalued to the point were killing someone is no big deal kid see hundreds on murderous acts on tv we can abort children on demand and kill the sick and old at will so why be surprised when some kids drop lbs rocks and kill people they don care because the message they hear is life is cheap at well people fortunatly or unfortunatly only the us is experiencing the devaluation of human life among developed nations am an american but was raised in europe where the worst thing that can happen to somebody is get his car broken into or have his pocket picked by slaves or russian refugees of cource there will be some nutcases but thats extremely rare in greece you can walk through any neighborhood at any time during the night without even worrying in germany you can walk the sidewalks at am and not even look behind your back at the sanitation crews that clean the streets to sparkling cleen whoever of you have been there you know what am saying dont have any easy answers but if we as nation do some selfcritisism we might get somewhere of course these postings sould be in soc culture us but if we reduce crime here it ll mean less car insurance rates thus we could spend more money on modifing our cars now my posting is rec autos tech revelant vlasis theodore software engineer idb mobile communications sig under development remember this happening on the through michigan and ohio several years back group of guys in an old beater would rear end car usually out of state or canadians you stop and they smack you with bb bat at least they didn kill you for the sake of car think the cops put out decoys and this calmed down for while vlasis are you safe walking through germany if you are refugee xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos tech rec autos newsgroups rec autos tech rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech darwin sura net udel wupost monsanto com bb1t monsanto com sekell from sekell bb1t monsanto com subject monthly posting buick grand national regal type mailing list message id apr16 bb1t monsanto com lines sender news tin monsanto com usenet news system organization monsanto company st louis mo date fri apr gmt monthly posting regarding the buick grand national regal type mailing list this list is for owners and other parties interested in the buick grand nationals regal types gnxs and other turbocharged regals discussions include technical information and parts sources particular emphasis is given to performance enhancements and racing to join or ask about the mailing list contact gnttype request srvsn2 monsanto com scott keller the agricultural group of monsanto company sekell bb1t monsanto com ka0wch packet ka0wch k0pfx mo usa na keeper of the buick grand national regal type mailing list newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu ncar noao stsci wiggs from wiggs stsci edu michael wiggs subject ignition kill message id apr16 stsci edu sender news stsci edu organization space telescope science institute newsreader tin version pl6 date fri apr gmt lines just wanted to thank all the netters out there who either posted response or sent mail regarding my ignition kill question now that know how simple procedure it is it looks like ll be paying my local pep boys visit this weekend mik newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet utcsri utnut nott bnrgate corpgate crchh327 crchh574 jcyuhn from jcyuhn crchh574 nosubdomain nodomain james yuhn subject re sho clutch question grinding noise message id c5kyfw nz news rich bnr ca sender jcyuhn crchh574 james yuhn date fri apr gmt references c5ggmm x8 mentor cc purdue edu c5h6f8 ldu news rich bnr ca unisql uucp nntp posting host crchh574 organization bnr inc lines in article unisql uucp wrat unisql uucp wharfie writes in article c5h6f8 ldu news rich bnr ca jcyuhn crchh574 nosubdomain nodomain james yuhn writes that not the clutch you re hearing its the gearbox early shos have lot of what is referred to as gear rollover noise you can generally have one of the first shos built and mine doesn make this noise geez wharfie do you have to be so difficult mine was built in december which qualifies as pretty dang early and it most certainly grinds away jim newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet spool mu edu uwm edu linac uchinews ncar noao stsci wiggs from wiggs stsci edu michael wiggs subject kubelwagen message id apr16 stsci edu sender news stsci edu organization space telescope science institute newsreader tin version pl6 date fri apr gmt lines the answer to your question is sort of volkswagen had much less robust version of this army vehicle out in the early or thereabouts it was called the volskwagen thing and was of course convertible havent seen many around then or now good luck mik newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net news centerline com uunet gatech news feed peachnet edu darwin sura net cos cos bob1 from bob1 cos com bob blackshaw subject re dumbest automotive concepts of all time message id bob1 cos organization corporation for open systems references q4466innb85 ctron news ctron com apr13 slcs slb com c5hhgm rm constellation ecn uoknor edu apr15 slcs slb com distribution na date fri apr gmt lines in apr15 slcs slb com dcd se houston geoquest slb com dan day writes in article c5hhgm rm constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james callison writes in article apr13 slcs slb com dcd se houston geoquest slb com dan day writes how about those really ugly fake wheel compartments stuck onto the trunk or side or both sides of some tacky luxury cars some of em aren fake if you re talking about the continental kit named after the lincoln continental the first car to sport one personally would love to have bird with continental kit and the supercharged that is one of the most beautiful cars ever built imho go for lincoln continental if could find one sad part is that edsel ford designed it and look at the abortion they named after him ain no justice okay ll admit it looks nice on the bird as previous owner of and thunderbirds biased anyway newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net news centerline com uunet gatech news feed peachnet edu darwin sura net cos cos bob1 from bob1 cos com bob blackshaw subject re dumbest automotive concepts of all time message id bob1 cos organization corporation for open systems references apr6 cbnewsj cb att com c5hhgm rm constellation ecn uoknor edu drutx att com distribution na date fri apr gmt lines in drutx att com klf druwa att com franklinkl writes in article c5hhgm rm constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james callison writes in article apr13 slcs slb com dcd se houston geoquest slb com dan day writes in article q4466innb85 ctron news ctron com smith ctron com writes it big aftermarket business almost no cars come from the factory with vynal any more and any fake convertible job definitely came from some aftermarket place what amazes me is how much people are willing to pay for bad taste how about those really ugly fake wheel compartments stuck onto the trunk or side or both sides of some tacky luxury cars some of em aren fake if you re talking about the continental kit named after the lincoln continental the first car to sport one personally would love to have bird with continental kit and the supercharged that is one of the most beautiful cars ever built imho james the continental may have been the first modern era auto to mount the spare on the rear of the car but it was hardly the first car to sport one various mounting techniques for rear mounting the spare were quite common in early automobiles both us and foreign right in the thirties both buick and packard had two spares mounted in wells in the front fenders of course that was back when the front fenders were long enough to provide room there were couple of other marques that did this as well but memory fades ken franklin they say there heaven for people who wait ama and some say it better but say it ain gwrra rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints dod the sinners are lots more fun know only the good die young newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech news feed peachnet edu darwin sura net cos cos bob1 from bob1 cos com bob blackshaw subject re dumbest automotive concepts of all time message id bob1 cos organization corporation for open systems references rphroy ph gmr com apr08 acs ucalgary ca apr13 slcs slb com c5hi0b constellation ecn uoknor edu distribution world date fri apr gmt lines in c5hi0b constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james callison writes in article apr13 slcs slb com dcd se houston geoquest slb com dan day writes in article apr08 acs ucalgary ca parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr writes as long time motorcyclist have never understood what posessed auto builders to put delicate controls which must be used with skill and finesse like clutches and brakes on the floor why not hand control it much much easier in the early days neither of these functions had power assist so only legs had enough strength to activate them since then it been traditional and people would have hard time getting used to anything else well where exactly would you put hand clutch and brake on motorcycle it easy the handlebars have very limited range of turning steering wheels on the other hand turn around and around and around which is fine for electrical relays like your cruise control and airbag but how many of you want to lose your clutch and or brake due to short circuit shades of the edsel they had pushbuttons in the steering wheel hub that controlled the auto tranny it was very disconcerting to shift into reverse when turning corner and the wires shorted there are workarounds but there really no reason to use hand power on car clutch or brakes and lightening them to the point that they are finesse controls suitable for hand use would increse the mechanical complexity substantially look at power brakes and non power brakes for an example saw an experimental car that had joystick instead of steering wheel that about useless imho another automotive oddity is separate keys for trunks doors and ignitions why on earth would you want this know don want separate trunk key for security reasons it gives me totally separate lockable container for door and ignition ehhh the same key ok guess james james callison microcomputer coordinator of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer not an engineer but play one at work the forecast calls for thunder bird sc it hell of thing killing man you take away all he has and all he ever gonna have will munny unforgiven path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com emory swrinde zaphod mps ohio state edu darwin sura net lhc adm claudius hipmac1 pica army mil user from stevewall aol com steve wall newsgroups rec autos subject re warning please read message id stevewall hipmac1 pica army mil date apr gmt references apr14 rd hydro on ca apr15 virginia edu apr15 convex com sender news pica army mil usenet special account usenet followup to rec autos rec autos tech alt autos antique rec autos antique organization anhedonics anonymous lines nntp posting host hipmac1 pica army mil in article apr15 convex com tobias convex com allen tobias wrote society as we have known it it coming apart at the seams the basic reason is that human life has been devalued to the point were killing someone is no big deal kid see hundreds on murderous acts on tv we can abort children on demand and kill the sick and old at will so why be surprised when some kids drop lbs rocks and kill people they don care because the message they hear is life is cheap think this is getting little overheated highway robbers have been part of life since the middle ages at least it human nature to look at history through rose colored glasses but random acts of violence have been ceaseless part of our heritage overall life is better now than it ever was then it just that random individual acts of violence have never been historically significant and record keeping in the past was never good enough to retain them all steve wall path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu tamsun tamu edu zeus tamu edu tjz6624 from tjz6624 zeus tamu edu zingale thomas newsgroups rec autos subject re chevy sprint date apr cdt organization texas university academic computing services lines distribution world message id apr199310384278 zeus tamu edu references wfnmbjg00wboe3l2c0 andrew cmu edu nntp posting host zeus tamu edu news software vax vms vnews in article wfnmbjg00wboe3l2c0 andrew cmu edu srinagesh gavirneni sg48 andrew cmu edu writes have chevy sprint with and doors it odometer turned and the sensor light started blinking went to the dealer and he said it was maintenance light saying need to change the oxygen sensor he said it is to be changed every but since bought the car when it had don know if the same thing happened at and he quoted for the part and to install it the part cost outside but the mechanic went to could not fix it saying the sensor is placed too deep in the engine parts he suggested wait till it malfunctions before do anything if anyone out there owns chevy sprint want to know how they got their oxygen sensors changed also did you face any problem with fixing it without the dealer help also what are the results of the oxygen sensor malfunction any help would be greatly apprecisted thanks nagesh have owned my sprint from the beginning and that sensor light comes on every to let you know it time for check up when that light goes on just take it to the delaer tell them it that time and they work on it for hou and you pay for parts and for labor ahh what they get for labor currently have about on my sprint and of all the times took it in for service never say on the payment sheet anything about the replacement of the oxygen sensor what the heck is an oxygen sensor as far an know of have never had that thing replaced in my car and the car is purring like kitten now don have mother nature does that for me and that might have something to do with it but still never heard of an oxygen sensor the only major service job have had on my car besides getting the tires replaced if you want to call that service job was getting the rotor distributor and gasket replaced and that was all done within the past months what do at is have good tune up let them replace what ever they need to pay the bill about and go home and don worry about the car for another oh just remembered something if that little sensor light bothers you in the fuse box right below the turn signal lever up against the dash there is swith on the right side flip that switch and the light will go off do that so that little light won annoy me if you can find it look it up in the car manuel hope that have helped little and good luck with the oxygen sensor thomas mail address give me an an army of west point tjz6624 zeus tamu edu graduates and ll win battle give me handful of texas aggies creator of mot power and ll win war gen george patton xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt autos antique alt snowmobiles rec autos newsgroups ak general alt autos antique alt snowmobiles rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net nic umass edu caen saimiri primate wisc edu usenet coe montana edu news washington edu raven alaska edu orca alaska edu sxjwg from sxjwg orca alaska edu subject arctic wheels auto show message id apr16 orca alaska edu lines sender news raven alaska edu usenet news system nntp posting host orca alaska edu organization university of alaska date fri apr gmt arctic wheels of fairbanks presents the th anniversary auto show the auto show will be held on may mother day weekend at the fort jonathan wainwright physical fitness center almost any and every vehicle is welcome cars trucks snowmobiles motorcycles antiques racing etc are welcome for more information call or you may also write arctic wheels box fairbanks alaska this show is to benefit alaska crippled children and adults acca if you wish to place vehicle in the show register early space is limited to first come first get spot in the show you may also use this id to forward information to show officials university of alaska fairbanks university of alaska computer network james jim grimes sxjwg orca alaska edu tenth anniversary auto show may presented by arctic wheels to benefit alaska crippled children and adults call or write auto show po box fairbanks ak newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet ub com c2tech jimiii from jimiii nimbus com jim warford subject re electronic odometers was used bmw question message id apr16 nimbus com reply to jimiii nimbus com jim warford organization nimbus technology santa clara ca usa references apr14 slcs slb com rrusk apr14165622 jade ssd csd harris com apr15 slcs slb com news duke edu date fri apr gmt lines in article news duke edu klg mookie mc duke edu kim greer writes was wondering if anyone can shed any light on just how it is that these electronic odometers remember the total elapsed mileage what kind of memory is stable reliable enough non volatile enough and independent enough of outside battery power to last say years or more in the life of vehicle amazed that anything like this could be expected to work for this length of time especially in light of all the gizmos work with that are doing good to work for months without breaking down somehow mk48t02 from thomsom it has timekeeper clock and bytes of nvram which has lithium battery backup the battery has life of years of poweroff operation installed in car it could be left powered on continuously and not draw much current the battery would only be used when your auto battery was dead or had been removed side question how about the legal ramifications of selling used car with replaced odometer that starts over at miles after say actual miles looks like fraud would be fairly easy for the price of new odometer you can say it has however many miles you want to tell the buyer it has in california they have line on the transfer of ownership form which states that the odometer mileage is correct if incorrect you are required to fill in what you know or guesstimate to be the correct mileage if you lie on this form and are caught you can be prosecuted and the buyer can sue you for the value of the mileage differential faster horses younger women older whiskey more money newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech purdue mentor cc purdue edu noose ecn purdue edu rainbow ecn purdue edu rjwade from rjwade rainbow ecn purdue edu robert wade subject re re aftermarket units message id c5l2em j2 noose ecn purdue edu sender news noose ecn purdue edu usenet news organization purdue university engineering computer network references apr15 walter cray com distribution usa date fri apr gmt lines les bartel comments sorry can help you with your question but do have comment to make concerning aftermarket units have frost king or frost temp forget which aftermarket unit on my cavalier and am quite unhappy with it the fan is noisy and doesn put out much air will never have an aftermarket installed in any of my vehicles again just can trust the quality and performance after this experience les let me add my in had installed by the ford garage and it did not work as well as the that was installed by the factory in pickups identical to mine have talked to other people that have had the same result don know if this is just probable with ford or what ernie smith agree never have the dealer add anything to your car if you want make sure it is factory installed honda maybe excluded many can be bought with installed at the factory but think maybe they actually use all the needed parts for true factory install when they put one in as in bigger radiator etc or are designed properly for this in the st place anyway my point is the dealer installed won be anywhere near as good as factory and the service bums will mess up your car when installing it scratches screwdriver holes in seats parts not reinstalled correctly or with all the screws etc know guy who has been service manager at gm dealer for years he said never have dealer add anything to your car except maybe floormats path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet elroy jpl nasa gov usc usc not for mail from ciarlett mizar usc edu joni ciarletta newsgroups rec autos subject master cylinder date apr organization university of southern california los angeles ca lines sender nntp mizar usc edu distribution world message id qmm5linnrqi mizar usc edu nntp posting host mizar usc edu thanks to everyone who responded to my honda accord break question it does seem that the master cylinder is bad will have my mechanic double check and be sure it isn something simpler and cheaper first but from your responses it sounds like it is very likely to be the master cylinder thanks everyone joni newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com emory darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet utcsri newsflash concordia ca davec from davec ece concordia ca dave chu subject wanted opinions on mg message id c5l39r f2d newsflash concordia ca sender usenet newsflash concordia ca usenet news system nntp posting host dreams ece concordia ca organization ece concordia university date fri apr gmt lines was wondering if anyone out in net land have any opinions on mgs in general know they are not the most reliable cars around but summer is approaching and they are convertibles interested in mg but any opinions on mgs would be appreciated thanks dave dave kai chui chu dept of elec comp eng concordia university voice de maisonneuve h915 fax montreal quebec canada h3g m8 email davec ece concordia ca path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet spool mu edu enterpoop mit edu senator bedfellow mit edu athena mit edu tgardner from tgardner athena mit edu timothy gardner newsgroups rec autos subject re another taurus sho question date apr gmt organization massachusetts institute of technology lines message id qmmrainnfmn senator bedfellow mit edu references apr12 urbana mcd mot com apr14 reed edu nntp posting host m2 mit edu in article apr14 reed edu rseymour reed edu writes the taurus sho for those who can get it straight it is as in super high output not sho as in show has yamaha dohc valves sho having spoken to technical staff from ford many times can assure you that internally at ford this car is always called the taurus show or just the show as in long sound still refer to it as the however because it sounds better to me assume many purist fans and owners prefer using the ford lingo tim gardner xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos misc wanted newsgroups rec autos misc wanted path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet caen sol ctr columbia edu usenet ucs indiana edu reid ucs indiana edu reid from reid ucs indiana edu frank reid subject re the kuebelwagen message id reid ucs indiana edu lines sender news usenet ucs indiana edu usenet news system nntp posting host reid ucs indiana edu organization indiana university references wanderer camelot c5k5co f09 mentor cc purdue edu date fri apr gmt in article c5k5co f09 mentor cc purdue edu thwang mentor cc purdue edu tommy hwang writes sorry for the mis spelling but forgot how to spell it after my series of exams and no on hand reference here is it still possible to get those cute wwii vw jeep wanna be replica would be great think tkh the vw thing kubelwagen lookalike is still manufactured in mexico and possibly south america good luck importing one they probably don meet us safety and pollution requirements there are mechanics and junkyards which specialize in vw they might be helpful for finding thing unless the wwii re enacters have grabbed them all the wwii kubelwagen was the german equivalent of the jeep but was not wheel drive one is on display at the patton museum at fort knox kentucky also the rare schwimwagen sp amphibious version in full scale dioramas highly recommended frank reid ucs indiana edu newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech udel darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet spsgate mogate newsgate usenet from markm bigfoot sps mot com mark monninger subject re auto air conditioning without freon message id apr16 newsgate sps mot com sender usenet newsgate sps mot com nntp posting host reply to rapw20 email sps mot com organization sps references apr15 research nj nec com distribution usa date fri apr gmt lines in article apr15 research nj nec com behanna syl nj nec com chris behanna writes several chemists already have come up with several substitutes for r12 you don hear about them because the mobile air conditioning society macs that is the people who stand to rake in that to per retrofit per automobile have mounted an organized campaign to squash those r12 substitutes out of existence if not ban them altogether on very shaky technical grounds at best on outright lies at worst now not saying you re wrong because know that the substitutes exist but this sounds lot like the mpg carbs that the oil companies keep us all from getting mark xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech sci materials newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech sci materials path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net newsserver jvnc net newsserver technet sg ntuix mgqlu from mgqlu ntuix ntu ac sg max lu subject re auto air conditioning without freon message id apr23 ntuix ntu ac sg followup to rec autos rec autos tech sci materials organization nanyang technological university singapore newsreader tin version pl9 references c5u5fy hvx news cso uiuc edu distribution usa date fri apr gmt lines it is actually simple in principle porous adsorbents like zeolite and activated carbon can adsorb gases evaporated from the adsorbate water or methanol etc giving the cooling effect upon being heated the gas saturated adsorbent bed will give off the gases which are then to be condensed this forms the adsorption refrigeration cycle the only problem is that the cop is very low max max lu phd internet mgqlu ntu ac sg division of thermal enginerring bitnet mgqlu ntuvax bitnet school of mpe nanyang technological university phone nanyang avenue singapore fax newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com emory gatech usenet ins cwru edu agate spool mu edu uwm edu ux1 cso uiuc edu usenet ucs indiana edu bronze ucs indiana edu tmspence from tmspence bronze ucs indiana edu thomas morris spencer subject are there any honda groups message id c5l4ii sh usenet ucs indiana edu sender news usenet ucs indiana edu usenet news system nntp posting host bronze ucs indiana edu organization indiana university distribution na date fri apr gmt lines are there any honda groups out there especially ones that deal with preludes tom spencer newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net news centerline com uunet acd4 acd4 acd com jwg from jwg sedv1 acd4 acd com jwg subject re dumbest automotive concepts of all time in reply to bhtulin unix amherst edu message of wed apr gmt message id jwg apr16102333 sedv1 acd4 acd com sender news acd4 acd com usenet news system organization jwg organization references tommy hoodlum c5hqj0 unix amherst edu date fri apr gmt lines in article c5hqj0 unix amherst edu bhtulin unix amherst edu barak tulin gives forth just started reading this thread today so forgive me if it has already been mentioned but what was the deal with renault putting the horn on the left hand turn signal stalk it was button on the end where the washer button would be on the wiper washer stalk could the frenchies not figure out the wiring through the steering wheel or what had an alliance for long time it was comfortable but sluggish car got very used to the horn on the stalk after couple months worth of getting used to it after bought my next car chevy it took me for ever to get used to the horn on the steering wheel again jim grey jwg acd4 acd com up the irons path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net news centerline com uunet spool mu edu agate usenet ins cwru edu po cwru edu aas7 from aas7 po cwru edu andrew spencer newsgroups rec autos subject re it rush was re too fast date apr gmt organization case western reserve university cleveland oh usa lines message id qmnvd cf3 usenet ins cwru edu references unisql uucp qfvco on usenet ins cwru edu qg19v ju umcc umcc umich edu shaman wv tek com apr14 viewlogic com crh regent technik tu muenchen de reply to aas7 po cwru edu andrew spencer nntp posting host slc5 ins cwru edu in previous article crh regent technik tu muenchen dbp de christian huebner says brad buck viewlogic com bradford kellogg writes think he talking about different form of rush evidently it fun to be terrified but hey if you want that kind of rush try bobsledding you may only get up to or so but it makes in car feel like stroll in the park why should good driver be terrified at mph the only thing fear going at are drivers who switch to the left lane without using either rear view mirror or flashers doing to ain rush for me but it fun and get where want to go much faster but in one point you are quite right if you are terrified at you should better not drive that fast or you ll be hazard to others btw before you flame me read my mail address know what talking about as live in germany bk chris crh regent technik tu muenchen de not flame just point be scared at here not because feel or my car couldn handle it but because of exactly what you said drivers who are stupid like the ones who are doing also and so they pull in right behind you at maybe car lengths oh yeah real smart this scares me in cities at when can see enough of the car to make it recognizable they are following too close and when see them doing this and reading newspaper sigh this is why america has speed limits our drivers are too dumb to realise that reading the paper should be done at breakfast or work not in their car my thoughts drew newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet spsgate mogate newsgate usenet from markm bigfoot sps mot com mark monninger subject re car buying story was christ another dealer service scam message id apr16 newsgate sps mot com sender usenet newsgate sps mot com nntp posting host reply to rapw20 email sps mot com organization sps references apr15 slcs slb com distribution usa date fri apr gmt lines in article apr15 slcs slb com dcd se houston geoquest slb com dan day writes relates an experience similar to mine then comes the part wish could have videotaped as we go out the front door the sales manager shouts across the entire showroom customers and all go ahead you deserve to buy nissan so my friend bought sentra this kind of behavior is what was shocked by in my experience for crying out loud how do these turkeys think they can talk to customers this way and still stay in business again don expect sales people to bow scrape and grovel in my presence but sure don expect to be abused either was very surprised by the way the sales people talked to me and in other negotiating sessions overheard in neighboring sales cubicles evidently their success rate is high enough that they continue to do business this way there must be lot of people out there who are easy to intimidate on the other hand not sure about the one price no haggling approach that saturn and other are starting to use guess if their fixed price is fair it ok maybe the best approach is to do your homework before you go in find out the invoice prices of the car add reasonable profit for the dealer offer them that price and stick to it if they get abusive just leave then don let them try to screw you after the deal is agreed on mark newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet gatech udel news intercon com psinntp ctp bpita from bpita ctp com bob pitas subject re braindead drivers who don look ahead message id apr16 ctp com keywords bad drivers sender bpita ctp com nntp posting host earth ctp com organization cambridge technology partners distribution usa date fri apr gmt lines in article apr14 cbnewsd cb att com hhm cbnewsd cb att com herschel mayo writes well guess know for sure what meant and it is this don know where you drive but around here freeways are often clogged solid with large packs of semis trucks and cars of all descriptions when close on one of these rolling clusterf on the highway have no desire to add my vehicle to this rolling accident looking for place to happen if there were any way to pass it would be passing myself however can as posted before all it takes is blown tire or some moron tramping on the brakes to turn this pack into cloud of shredded metal flying glass and burning vehicles want to maintain enough free space between myself and this mess to at least have minimal chance to avoid mass crash that means maintaining clear space between me and it however there is no end of shortdriving morons who are dying to pass so they can add themselves and their car to the bodycount that wouldn bother me so much except that after letting enough of these morons pass me and glue themselves to the pack ahead my interval is filled up trying to back off further does not work because the road behind me has filled up trapping my car right into an ever increasing pack now if there was any slight possibility that there was lane open ahead be glad to move over but there usually is no way in hell that anybody is going anywhere so block the would be passers not only for my own good but theirs as well even though they are often too stupid to realize it just an comment don like it when people decide what good for me if you think you re going to decide anything for me you better be carrying badge and gun who made you capable of determining if there is no way in hell that anybody is going anywhere why do you find it necessary to add to the problem instead of just minding your own business if someone is minding their own business will give them all the room they want and ll try to make things easy for them even letting them in in front of me if they ask politely with directional on the other hand if someone like you decides they want to block me and be general asshole you can bet your ass that ll make life as miserable as possible for you as long as it doesn affect anyone else who minding their own business they have phrase to describe someone like you self appointed traffic police just mind your own business and stay in the right lane where you belong as rule of philosophy don feel particularly sorry when somebody gets offed by his own stupidity but it does worry me when some idiot is in position to cash in my chips too mayo mustang gt bob pitas ush bpita ctp com up at ned epping nh cambridge ma geddy lee in yyz disclaimer these opinions are mine obviously since they end with my sig xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net news centerline com uunet zaphod mps ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu sorlin from sorlin magnus acs ohio state edu steven orlin subject re changing oil by self message id apr16 magnus acs ohio state edu sender news magnus acs ohio state edu nntp posting host magnusug magnus acs ohio state edu organization the ohio state university references apr15 magnus acs ohio state edu apr15 distribution usa date fri apr gmt lines in article apr15 rtfm mlb fl us gwalker rtfm mlb fl us grays on walker writes why crawl under the car at all have machine got for my boat that pulls the oil out under suction through the dip stick tube it does an excellent job and by moving the suction tube around you can get more old oil out than by using the drain plug think paid at marine the oil goes into steel gal can wait until it cools and decant into your favorite device use soft drink bottles easy to take them down to the local oil recycle center yeah suppose you could do that but then you don get the broken knuckles the rust in your eyes the oil bath and the burns from the exhaust mean come on steve xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com uunet decwrl sdd hp com sgiblab darwin sura net udel news intercon com psinntp juno measurex com msd measurex com mxmsd msd measurex com bobml from bobml mxmsd msd measurex com bob lagesse subject re changing oil by self message id apr16 msd measurex com sender usenet msd measurex com usenet news system reply to bobml msd measurex com organization measurex msd references apr14 dsd es com apr14 progress apr15 magnus acs ohio state edu apr15 news cs brandeis edu distribution mxmsd date fri apr gmt lines in article apr15 news cs brandeis edu andyh chaos cs brandeis edu andrew huang writes in article apr15 magnus acs ohio state edu sorlin magnus acs ohio state edu steven orlin writes take the electrodes of the amp ohm volt meter whatever and connect one to each earlobe then symmetrically insert my fingers in each of the spark plug boots no cheating guys both hands must be used have just couple of questions about this technique first what firing order should use do start with my pointer finger or my pinky left hand or right and secondly have cyl and there are two cylinders unaccounted for any suggestions andy how about your two big toes and while you re at it why bother with removing the drain plug when you could remove the dipstick instead and suck it out from there with your mouth and then spit it out domain bobml msd measurex com bob lagesse senior software engineer uucp uunet mxmsd bobml measurex management systems division voice x303 kemper meadow drive fax cincinnati ohio usa xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt autos antique alt snowmobiles rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com emory swrinde zaphod mps ohio state edu darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet noc near net bigboote wpi edu bernoulli wpi edu kastle from kastle bernoulli wpi edu jacques brouillette newsgroups ak general alt autos antique alt snowmobiles rec autos subject re arctic wheels auto show date apr gmt organization worcester polytechnic institute lines message id qmnjl dau bigboote wpi edu references apr16 orca alaska edu nntp posting host bernoulli wpi edu want only two things from this world plymouth and small opec nation with which to fuel it this would be good and just thing car smashers can just go home and sulk jacques brouillette manufacturing engineering newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen usenet cis ufl edu usenet ufl edu gatech howland reston ans net agate ames kronos arc nasa gov hotspare arc nasa gov user from brian gothamcity jsc nasa gov brian donnell subject re dealer cheated me with wrong odometer reading need help message id brian hotspare arc nasa gov followup to rec autos sender usenet kronos arc nasa gov will edgington wedgingt ptolemy arc nasa gov nntp posting host hotspare arc nasa gov organization nasa arc information sciences division references qvrnpinnnid shelley washington edu conradie firga sun ac za distribution usa date wed apr gmt lines don know about where you are but here in california false representation of odometer readings is criminal felony if you can substantiate this you need to report that dealer to the local authorities you should consult with lawyer to tell you what civil action you can take as well keep in mind that you will have to prove that the dealer was aware of the change in the dashboard brian donnell newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com emory sol ctr columbia edu usenet ucs indiana edu silver ucs indiana edu mliggett from mliggett silver ucs indiana edu matthew liggett subject re opel owners message id c5tb2f usenet ucs indiana edu sender news usenet ucs indiana edu usenet news system nntp posting host silver ucs indiana edu organization indiana university references gibbonsa sfu ca c5sxi4 j9b news cso uiuc edu apr20 cactus org c5t3b2 dg news cso uiuc edu date wed apr gmt lines in c5t3b2 dg news cso uiuc edu cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes boyle cactus org craig boyle writes in article c5sxi4 j9b news cso uiuc edu cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes gibbonsa fraser sfu ca darren gibbons writes looking for information on opel cars now you ask which model well the sad truth is not entirely sure but it two seater with roll over headlights hard top and really sporty looking my friend has one sitting in his yard in really nice condition body wise but he transmission has seized up on him so it hasn run for while does anyone have any info on these cars the engine compartment looks really tight to work on but it is in fine shape and am quite interested in it thanks darren gibbons gibbonsa sfu ca this would be the manta would it not sold through buick dealers in the mid as the price leader sounds lot more like an opel gt to me guess that this is on the same chassis as the kadett rather than the bigger manta but could easily be wrong think the later kadett were sold here as buick opels craig think the manta is the european name for the gt pretty sure that the only kadett sold here were are the pontiac lemans think the gt is just an early to mid manta chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area bzzt the manta was two door sedan in the us it had engine was sometimes referred to as an opel manta are also ve hot and fun cars too mliggett silver ucs indiana edu mliggett iugold bitnet junk collector toys us kid antiauthoritarian and fan of frogs iguanas and other herps newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net torn watserv2 uwaterloo ca watarts uwaterloo ca awelker from awelker watarts uwaterloo ca welker subject aftermarket exhausts for bmw message id c5tcqj watserv2 uwaterloo ca sender news watserv2 uwaterloo ca organization university of waterloo date wed apr gmt lines am in the process of looking for half decent aftermarket sport exhaust for my bmw so far have found pacesetter exhaust for and an ansa exhaust for canadian funds was wondering if anyone could tell me anyhting about either of these exhausts or any other possible exhausts that may be interested in my main priorities are decent horse power increase and nice low note to go along with that added power was also thinking of looking into both remus and leistritz exhausts has anyone got anything to say about these am mainly looking for the muffler only but if anyone can find good deal on whole kit would be willing to go after that also would like to know how much these would cost me in the states please mail me back if you have any information mike welker xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc sdd hp com col hp com dduff from dduff col hp com dave duff newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech subject re waxing new car date apr gmt organization hp colorado springs division lines message id r2g31innbni hp col col hp com references aa19967 heartland bradley edu nntp posting host fajita19 cs itc hp com just had my chrysler painted was told to refrain from waxing it and to leave it out in the sun supposedly this let the volatiles escape from the paint over month or so can smell it feet away on hot day and lets any slight irregularites in the surface flow out as the paint remains little soft for while path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu swrinde emory emoryu1 erasure sl cc emory edu from jcorry erasure sl cc emory edu jeremy corry newsgroups rec autos subject mbenz series vw passat message id emoryu1 cc emory edu date apr gmt sender news emory edu lines nntp posting host erasure sl cc emory edu my boss is interested in new series mercedes benz wagon does anyone have any testimonial evidence and or strong opinions on this car or line particularly would like to hear about power manual only reliability feel and any unusually good or bad features of the line she currently drives vw passat and is being plagued by its electrical problems the dealer claims there is nothing wrong even though the doors have habit of locking and unlocking them selves while you are driving down the road the automatic shoulder restraints also like to move back and forth as you move along she does not have the new larger engine and is quite dissatisfied with its lack of power the mb wagon would have to have more power and no peculiar problems such as the passat electrical system she is also considering saab add some letters any comparisons between the line and the mercedes would be helpful price is not an impediment jeremy corry churchill claimed the traditions jcorry erasure sl cc emory edu of the navy are rum mutiny and sodomy my opinions are my own but probably got them from someone else path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu swrinde cs utexas edu utnut utgpu utorvm ryevm ryerson ca syst8145 organization ryerson polytechnical institute distribution na date tuesday apr est from syst8145 ryevm ryerson ca message id syst8145 ryevm ryerson ca newsgroups rec autos subject van step van accessory help lines hello netters would like to find out information about device that is used on vans and trucks this device is step that hooks onto the tire and folds up for storage ve seen this device on tnn shady tree mechanic would like to know if it is good product and would also like the price and address of where can purchase this product thanks george chan email syst8145 ryevm ryerson ca newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu usc sol ctr columbia edu eff world aep from aep world std com andrew page subject re importing volvo message id c5te4s er world std com organization the world public access unix brookline ma references c5rd2l gp dartvax dartmouth edu date wed apr gmt lines there was an article in business week not more the weeks ago on this very subject in fact the volvo was one of the cars they laid out an example for andrew page warrior poet decision and effort the archer and arrow mac consultant the difference between what we are macintosh and dsp technology and what we want to be path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net noc near net uunet auspex gw news from tpickett auspex com tom pickett newsgroups rec autos subject re sho and sc message id auspex gw auspex com date apr gmt references qehi6 ork armory centerline com sender news auspex gw auspex com reply to tpickett auspex com tom pickett organization auspex systems inc engineering lines nntp posting host in article qehi6 ork armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes ok ll give you few reasons neither car was designed to turn at those speeds neither car was designed to stop quickly from those speeds safety mechanisms were not designed for impacts at those speeds an uncontrolled environment leads to unpredictable circumstances where you might need to turn or stop with no notice do you by any chance own an sho or have access to one such that you would have any idea what it is designed for or how it handles just wondering tom pickett tpickett auspex com or compuserve com sho goze path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu pitt edu uunet noc near net das news harvard edu ogicse henson news washington edu lanmola eliot from eliot lanmola engr washington edu eliot newsgroups rec autos subject re mr2 noisy engine message id apr21 engr washington edu date apr gmt references r1vofinn871 usenet pa dec com organization clearer than blir lines nntp posting host lanmola engr washington edu in article r1vofinn871 usenet pa dec com tomacj opco enet dec com thunderbirds are go writes are there any mr2 owners or motor head gurus out there that know why my mr2 engine sounds noisy the mr2 engine is noisy at the best of times but not even nice nose it one of those very ugly noises assuming yours is non turbo mr2 the gruffness is characteristic of large inline that doesn have balance shafts guess toyota didn care about little details like that when they can brag about the mid engine configuration and the flashy styling myself automatically cross out any car from consideration or recommendation which has an inline larger than liters and no balance shafts it is good rule of thumb to keep in mind if you ever want halfway decent engine if the noise really bugs you there is nothing else that you can do except to sell it and get v6 eliot xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech alt autos antique rec autos antique newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech alt autos antique rec autos antique path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet bcstec voodoo ca boeing com tomm from tomm hank ca boeing com tom mackey subject re warning please read message id apr20 voodoo ca boeing com keywords brick truck danger sender news voodoo ca boeing com usenet news system organization bogart graphics development references qh336innfl5 cs utk edu c5joit e31 bcstec ca boeing com date tue apr gmt lines in article c5joit e31 bcstec ca boeing com neil bcstec ca boeing com neil williams writes as long as we re on the subject several years ago myself and two others were riding in the front of toyota pickup heading south on interstate north of seattle wa someone threw rock of an overpass and hit our windshield not by accident sure it was impossible to get up to the overpass quickly to see who did it we figured it was kids reported it and left couple of years ago it happend again and killed guy at my company he was in his mid fourties and left behind wife and children turned out there was reformatory for juviniles few blocks away they caught the year old that did it they put cover over the overpass what else could they do execute the juvi on the grounds of the reformatory required attendendence by the rest of the inmates as soon as possible after the incident and quick sure trial am quite serious cause and effect nothing else will ever make dent don think ll over forget this story neil williams boeing computer services bellevue wa me neither tom mackey tomm voodoo ca boeing com boeing computer services uunet bcstec voodoo tomm box seattle wa xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech alt autos antique rec autos antique newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech alt autos antique rec autos antique path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu uunet bcstec voodoo ca boeing com tomm from tomm hank ca boeing com tom mackey subject re warning please read message id apr20 voodoo ca boeing com sender news voodoo ca boeing com usenet news system organization bogart graphics development references apr15 virginia edu c5jcpa ptt austin ibm com neilson apr15135919 seoul mpr ca date tue apr gmt lines in article neilson apr15135919 seoul mpr ca neilson seoul mpr ca robert neilson writes sorry for the auto content but that is why low abiding citizens should have the power to protect themselves and their property using deadly force if necessary anywhere threat is imminent steve heracleous you do have the power steve you can do it why don you why don you go shoot some kids who are tossing rocks onto cars make sure you do good job though don miss cause like they have big rocks and take it from me those kids are mean that is absolutely correct they have streak of meanness that runs much deeper and stronger than anything ever experienced even during the height of the racial struggles am absolutely convinced that there are kids out there today that have no concept of right and wrong but have the human intelligence which is turning them into the greatest predators that have ever walked the earth they will prevail unless the rest of humanity decides that it is in their best interest to stand up against these feral humans and for individuals to start taking some responsibility for their own protection in state in which the individuals turn to the authorities and police for protection the police and government is soon composed of the very feral humans that they originally sought protection from gee guess you touched my hot button better go cool off somewhere tom mackey tomm voodoo ca boeing com boeing computer services uunet bcstec voodoo tomm box seattle wa newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu caen uvaarpa murdoch hopper jmh from jmh hopper virginia edu jeffrey hoffmeister subject re questions about insurance companies esp geico message id c5ui6u ao0 murdoch acc virginia edu sender usenet murdoch acc virginia edu organization itc uva community access unix internet project references apr21 julian uwo ca distribution usa date wed apr gmt lines in article apr21 julian uwo ca wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith writes in article mimsy umd edu davew cs umd edu david wonnacott writes considering switching to geico insurance but have heard that they do not assign specific agent for each policy or claim was worried that this might be real pain when you make claim have also heard that they try to get rid of you if you have an accident ve read in this group that geico has funded the purchasing of radar guns by police depts not sure where geico has purchased radar guns in several states know they have done it here in ct have also heard horror stories about people that have been insured by geico for years and then had accident and were immediately dropped and once you ve been dropped by any insruance company you become labled high risk and end up forking out or times what you should be for insurance my suggestion stay where you are or shop around but stay away from geico jeff from barryf hpfcso fc hp com barry fowler date mon apr gmt subject re impala ss going into production message id hpfcso fc hp com organization hp colorado computer mfg operation path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu usenet ins cwru edu howland reston ans net usc sdd hp com hpscit sc hp com hplextra hpfcso barryf newsgroups rec autos references qqclrinnftl uwm edu lines does that mean that they re gonna bring back the biscayne and bel air newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net newsserver jvnc net newsserver technet sg nuscc matmcinn from matmcinn nuscc nus sg matthew macintyre at the national university of senegal subject re warning please read message id apr21 nuscc nus sg organization national university of singapore newsreader tin pl4 references c5o3r6 h3 news cso uiuc edu date wed apr gmt lines mchaffee dcl nxt07 michael chaffee writes significantly less than the value of many automobiles and for those who will argue that the animals out there stealing cars and everything else not to mention committing completely senseless acts of violence such as rape cannot be valued in terms of money because they are human beings submit that they are not human beings jim callison think is on the right track and absolutely scratch on my car bothers me more than the death of any number of scum all of you feel the same way you just won admit it when are people going to realise that the mere fact that piece of flesh moves and has the approximate shape of human being does not in itself mean that it has rights xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net noc near net uunet ftpbox mothost white sapphire rtsg mot com opal12 nataraja from nataraja rtsg mot com kumaravel natarajan subject dirty diesels message id nataraja opal12 sender news rtsg mot com nntp posting host opal12 organization motorola inc cellular infrastructure group distribution na date tue apr gmt lines heard the diesels are considered cleaner burning than gas engines because the emit less of carbon monoxide hydrocarbons and oxides of nitrogen co hc nox but they can put out lot of particulate matter heard something about legislation being discussed to clean up diesel emissions is there anything in the works to install scrubbers for diesels how about the feasibility of installing them on trucks and cars would it be any different than catylitic converter assume easier since we re removing particulate matter instead of converting gasses let hear people opinions vel natarajan nataraja rtsg mot com motorola cellular arlington hts il path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com foxtail blkhole vllyoak jp from jp vllyoak resun com jeff perry newsgroups rec autos subject re wife wants convertible message id hydc3b1w165w vllyoak resun com date tue apr pdt references r1tth b9i usenet ins cwru edu organization private site in san marcos california lines aas7 po cwru edu andrew spencer writes in previous article dspalme mke ab com diane palme x2617 says nuet ke pts mot com keith nuetzman x3153 p7625 writes help my wife has informed me that she wants convertible for her next car jp vllyoak resun com jeff perry writes fyi just last week the pbs show motor week gave the results of what they thought were the best cars for in the convertible category the honda civic del sol achieved this honor own del sol and must vouch for the interior really looks snazzy wh the top is off looks lot better in person than on the television that motorweek as well needless to say was smiling bit by the time it was over watch out for that darned convertible tan tho simply must inquire how can people honestly consider this car convertible does porsche have patent on the targa name mean convertible to me means top down which the del sol certainly does not do it has the center that lifts out this is what would term targa unless porsches was gonna sue me for doing that know the rear window rolls down but still can hardly consider this car to be convertible yes however with the top off and the rear window down this car is more like convertible than coupe think of it as convertible with an integrated roll bar like addition jp path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net gatech emory ogicse reed news from rseymour reed edu robert seymour newsgroups rec autos subject re what car is this message id apr21 reed edu date apr gmt article reed apr21 references apr20 wam umd edu sender news reed edu usenet news system reply to rseymour reed edu organization reed college portland or lines in article apr20 wam umd edu lerxst wam umd edu where my thing writes was wondering if anyone out there could enlighten me on this car saw the other day it was door sports car looked to be from the late early it was called bricklin the doors were really small in addition the front bumper was separate from the rest of the body this is all know if anyone can tellme model name engine specs years of production where this car is made history or whatever info you have on this funky looking car please mail bricklins were manufactured in the with engines from ford they are rather odd looking with the encased front bumper there aren lot of them around but hemmings motor news ususally has ten or so listed basically they are performance ford with new styling slapped on top brought to you by your neighborhood lerxst rush fan robert seymour rseymour reed edu physics and philosophy reed college nextmail accepted artificial life project reed college reed solar energy project soltrain portland or newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet ftpbox mothost isunix cdx mot com merlin dev cdx mot com merlin dev cdx mot com ravi from ravi merlin dev cdx mot com ravi puvvala subject mazda dx with air am fm good deal message id apr20 merlin dev cdx mot com sender news merlin dev cdx mot com merlin news system nntp posting host elvis dev cdx mot com reply to ravi merlin dev cdx mot com ravi puvvala organization motorola codex date tue apr gmt lines hi netters want to know if tax is good deal for mazda dx how is the performance review so far on mazda is it good buy please reply to me as don read this group often thanks in advance ravi ravi kiran puvvala the purpose of education is not merely ravi merlin dev cdx mot com the assimilation of facts but blow all motorola codex boston ma the money ravi puvvala newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu cactus org boyle from boyle cactus org craig boyle subject re opel owners message id apr21 cactus org organization capital area central texas unix society austin tx references c5sxi4 j9b news cso uiuc edu apr20 cactus org c5t3b2 dg news cso uiuc edu date wed apr gmt lines in article c5t3b2 dg news cso uiuc edu cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes boyle cactus org craig boyle writes in article c5sxi4 j9b news cso uiuc edu cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes gibbonsa fraser sfu ca darren gibbons writes looking for information on opel cars now you ask which model well the sad truth is not entirely sure but it two seater with roll over headlights hard top and really sporty looking my friend has one sitting in his yard in really nice condition body wise but he transmission has seized up on him so it hasn run for while does anyone have any info on these cars the engine compartment looks really tight to work on but it is in fine shape and am quite interested in it thanks darren gibbons gibbonsa sfu ca this would be the manta would it not sold through buick dealers in the mid as the price leader sounds lot more like an opel gt to me guess that this is on the same chassis as the kadett rather than the bigger manta but could easily be wrong think the later kadett were sold here as buick opels craig think the manta is the european name for the gt pretty sure well the european manta and us gt have entirely different bodies there is little or no chance that they are the same the manta went through several generations as the coupe version of the ascona and was ok in its time that the only kadett sold here were are the pontiac lemans think the not true the kadett has been in and out of the us market over the years the lemans old kadett is only the latest version craig gt is just an early to mid manta different cars one looks like sports car the other is coupe chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu cactus org boyle from boyle cactus org craig boyle subject re for hail damage record message id apr21 cactus org organization capital area central texas unix society austin tx references apr19 cactus org apr20 pencom com distribution usa date wed apr gmt lines in article apr20 pencom com stecz pencom com writes in article apr19 cactus org boyle cactus org craig boyle writes my integra was hit hard in the hailstorm in austin tx the insurance company cut me check for deductible last week is this record anybody else had settlements from the same hailstorm yet craig rumor has it that guy at dell computer had his miata totalled so that would be about guess it either had the top down or the hail ripped through the top as you could not do worth of hail damage to miata body craig john steczkowski stecz pencom com the constitution grants you the right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness it does not attempt to guarantee that everyone will be happy newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech paladin american edu howland reston ans net torn nott cunews freenet carleton ca freenet carleton ca ae015 from ae015 freenet carleton ca steve hui subject re new talon message id apr21 freenet carleton ca sender news freenet carleton ca news administrator organization national capital freenet ottawa canada date wed apr gmt lines would also be interested in finding out about the talon and suspect that many other people would be interested too so let get some responses on the net the question again does anyone have any info on the eagle talon mitsubishi eclipse plymouth laser know that the old talon was based on the mitsubishi galant and that in japan hp twin turbo v6 galant has been released so anyway any info on the talon would be appreciated steve hui path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu usenet coe montana edu news washington edu hardy washington edu yongje from yongje hardy washington edu yong je lim newsgroups rec autos subject dealer cheated me with wrong odometer reading need help date apr gmt organization university of washington seattle lines distribution usa message id qvrnpinnnid shelley washington edu nntp posting host hardy washington edu here is story bought car about two weeks ago finally can get hold of the previous owner of the car and got all maintanence history of the car in between and the instrument pannel of the car has been replaced and the odometer also has been reset to zero therefore the true meter reading is the reading before replacement plus current mileage that shows mile difference comparing to the mileage on the odometer disclosure from the dealer never told me anything about that important story hope that can return the car with full refund do think this is possible does anyone have similar experiences any comments will be appreciated thanks yongje washington edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel louie newsserver jvnc net howland reston ans net usc sol ctr columbia edu hamblin math byu edu yvax byu edu byuvm libemc newsgroups rec autos subject insurance question message id libemc byuvm bitnet from libemc byuvm bitnet date wednesday apr mdt organization brigham young university lines about to buy new car and finance some of it since paid cash for the last car bought did not have to worry about whether or not had good amount of insurance on it because of bank loan just put the amount that wanted not what bank would have wanted friends are telling me that banks require some kind of insurance on the car to protect it since it is collateral on loans is this true can that insurance be gotten as part of my other insurance assume don have to pay dealer for extra insurance over my regular car insurance am correct hear about accident health type insurance at the dealers and am pretty sure these are just money makers for them just want to verify that don have to buy these at all or any other types of extras what do have to pay for car tax license anything else ellen newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech concert uvaarpa murdoch faraday clas virginia edu rmt6r from rmt6r faraday clas virginia edu roy matthew thigpen subject re ad said nissan altima best seller message id c5rlbm m1 murdoch acc virginia edu sender usenet murdoch acc virginia edu organization university of virginia references apr19 cactus org date tue apr gmt lines boyle cactus org writes in article qv7mn dql menudo uh edu thang harebell egr uh edu chin heng thang writes recently saw an ad for the altima which says that it is the best seller for the past months is that true too was puzzled by this obvious untruth what think is going on is that nissan claims that the altima is the best selling new car namelplate in the us think have this near verbatim lee iaccoca statistics dept would have been proud of that sentence what they mean think is that of all totally new models cars never sold before in any form the altima is the best seller thereby eliminating accord taurus etc this is from the same people who make the claim that our minivan is outsellin theirs implying that the nissan quest murcury villager are out selling the chrysler mini vans not only is this not true at all but it was stupid claim to make the commercial was part of the introduction campaign for the vans kind of bold statement to make when you haven even sold one yet eh and thought buick and oldsmobile where bad shame on you nissan and mercury any other interpretations craig does anyone has anyhting regarding the of cars sold for the past months tony newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech concert uvaarpa murdoch faraday clas virginia edu rmt6r from rmt6r faraday clas virginia edu roy matthew thigpen subject rec autos message id c5rl4h kn murdoch acc virginia edu sender usenet murdoch acc virginia edu organization university of virginia date tue apr gmt lines there is just something disconcerting about the name of this group path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu pitt edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net newsserver jvnc net newsserver technet sg nuscc matmcinn from matmcinn nuscc nus sg matthew macintyre at the national university of senegal newsgroups rec autos subject re opel owners message id apr21 nuscc nus sg date apr gmt references c5t3b2 dg news cso uiuc edu organization national university of singapore lines newsreader tin pl4 by the way what do people think about the opel calibra xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net noc near net ceylon newshost gte com hhd0 from hhd0 harvey gte com horace dediu newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech subject re dirty diesels message id ceylon gte com date apr gmt references nataraja opal12 sender news ceylon gte com followup to rec autos distribution na organization gte laboratories waltham ma lines in article nataraja opal12 nataraja rtsg mot com kumaravel natarajan writes heard the diesels are considered cleaner burning than gas engines because the emit less of carbon monoxide hydrocarbons and oxides of nitrogen co hc nox but they can put out lot of particulate matter heard something about legislation being discussed to clean up diesel emissions is there anything in the works to install scrubbers for diesels how about the feasibility of installing them on trucks and cars would it be any different than catylitic converter assume easier since we re removing particulate matter instead of converting gasses let hear people opinions vel natarajan nataraja rtsg mot com motorola cellular arlington hts il this really bugs me the emissions of diesels are the cleanest of any vechicle but they are considered so polluting that they are banned in passenger cars in california what bunch of crap diesel is the fuel of choice for enviromental benefit in europe while here it illegal for the same reason the particulates are nothing but carbon they are just an annoyance at worst nothing beats the diesel cycle for efficiency and emissions torque or engine durability it also cheaper horace dediu gte laboratories sylvan road internet hdediu gte com waltham ma newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu moe ksu ksu edu osuunx ucc okstate edu constellation uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison from callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james callison subject re too fast sender usenet constellation ecn uoknor edu usenet administrator message id c5r73h m1 constellation ecn uoknor edu date mon apr gmt references qn4ev g2 usenet ins cwru edu c5m9o4 j2d constellation ecn uoknor edu qqv7k e5g usenet ins cwru edu nntp posting host uokmax ecn uoknor edu organization engineering computer network university of oklahoma norman ok usa lines in article qqv7k e5g usenet ins cwru edu aas7 po cwru edu andrew spencer writes in previous article callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james callison says in article qn4ev g2 usenet ins cwru edu aas7 po cwru edu andrew spencer writes in previous article wrat unisql uucp wharfie says that shows how much you know about anything the brakes on the sho are very different inch or forget discs all around vented in front the normal taurus setup is smaller discs front drums rear one saw had vented rears too it was on lot of course the sales man was fool titanium wheels yeah right then later told me they were magnesium more believable but still crap since al is so uch cheaper and just as good tend to agree tho that this still doesn take the sho up to standard for running on regular basis the brakes should be bigger like or so take look at the ones on the corrados where they have braking regulations well let see my bird sc has computer controlled adjustable suspension wheel abs disks vented front rear point rears also vented belts sturdy passenger compartment aerodynamics good enough for nascar without too much change hp ft lb supercharged v6 wheel independent suspension plus limited slip differential with top speed in excess of mph and rides on rated tires have yet to find r16s in any other speed rating is that up to standard if not why not james really hate to do this but try reading the damn posts then you shouldn ve done it try answering the damn question am well aware of the fact that there was no mention of the sc in there never was bird mentioned the discussion was about sho and stangs not being up to spec do not know about birds only know that the specs quoted for the sho by previous poster sounded little anemic for me to say that it was up to snuff this does not kn any way disencourage me from wishing to own one nor does it make it bad car it merely means that think ford could have added that extra bit of safety and tossed in larger brakes as the wheels are plenty large enough for them to fit if memory serves right which it may very well not and the motor plenty powerful enough to need it well my point was that the sc and the sho both have very similar characteristics front and rear disks abs on the sho high output v6 wheel independent suspension very good aerodynamics point harness fat rubber and mph top speed if one of them is up to standard and think the sc is but the other isn then why is that no flamage just curiousity james james callison microcomputer coordinator of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer not an engineer but play one at work the forecast calls for thunder bird sc it hell of thing killing man you take away all he has and all he ever gonna have will munny unforgiven newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com col hp com news dtc hp com srgenprp markg from markg sr hp com mark goldsworthy subject re ad said nissan altima best seller sender news srgenprp sr hp com news administrator message id c5uflh p4 srgenprp sr hp com date wed apr gmt references apr20 kocrsv01 delcoelect com organization hp sonoma county srsd mwtd mid newsreader tin version pl8 lines spiros triantafyllopoulos c23st kocrsv01 delcoelect com wrote but waiiiiiit isn nissan officially registering the car as far as government paperwork goes nissan stanza altima to avoid costly and lengthy paperwork read this on the net while ago and someone actually may have said there little stanza logo on the altima somewhere just bought an altima and like it very much and yes there is little stanza logo ever so discretely placed on the trunk the altima is emblazoned in big silver letters but the itsy bitsy stanza is shunted to the far left of the trunk lid you can only see it if you get up close to the car and know where to look it is very inconspicuous in fact my first clue that this was stanza was that the owners manual called the car nissan stanza altima anybody know why nissan did it this way mark goldsworthy path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu agate dog ee lbl gov network ucsd edu news service uci edu translab its uci edu raman from raman translab its uci edu balaji ramanathan subject re v4 v6 v8 v12 vx nntp posting host translab its uci edu message id bd5ed9f news service uci edu newsgroups rec autos organization university of california irvine lines date apr gmt references apr21 ole cdac com c5uwoj bt usenet ucs indiana edu in article c5uwoj bt usenet ucs indiana edu mliggett silver ucs indiana edu matthew liggett writes in apr21 ole cdac com ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes am curious about knowing which commericial cars today have engines v4 don know of any v6 legend mr3 mr6 lexus es300 gs300 sc300 infiniti j30 dozens of others including common cars like the toyota camry as an option v8 don know of any mustang camaros firebirds some mercedes lexus ls400 sc400 acura legend infiniti q45 lincoln mark viii some cadillacs and other luxury autos v10 dodge viper v12 jaguar xjs please add to the list thanks ssave ole cdac com mliggett silver ucs indiana edu mliggett iugold bitnet junk collector toys us kid antiauthoritarian and fan of frogs iguanas and other herps cut here for signature balaji ramanathan institute of transportation studies don believe in luck university of california irvine rely on it path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu msuinfo howell cps msu edu newman from newman cps msu edu timothy newman newsgroups rec autos subject domestic content of us japan joint ventures date apr gmt organization department of computer science michigan state university lines distribution usa message id r4qeo i6m msuinfo cl msu edu nntp posting host howell cps msu edu originator newman howell cps msu edu does anyone know what the domestic content is of any of these geo prizm eagle talon ford probe all are made in the us but have been told they contain mostly foreign parts please follow up directly to me ll post the findings to the net if there is interest thanks tim newman newman cps msu edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov sdd hp com decwrl pa dec com opco enet dec com tomacj from tomacj opco enet dec com thunderbirds are go newsgroups rec autos subject re mr2 noisy engine date apr organization digital equipment corporation lines message id r4q66innrn7 usenet pa dec com references r1vofinn871 usenet pa dec com apr21 engr washington edu apr21 ultb isc rit edu nntp posting host opco eliot is right about liter engine in the second and last generation mr2 but the original guy did not indicate the year of his mr2 if it first generation car like my it has liter engine or perhaps same engine with supercharger if it the sound he describes is common to any older toyota engine ever heard don know the relevance of his observations about oil changes my simply makes noise not all that annoying mind you but you hear it well when the engine is right behind your left ear mike sorry bout that mine is model non turbo with abs and revised suspension whatever revised means in australia so we always seem to get the versions without extras which the europeans and americans get as standard my query is why does the noise get noticeably louder about months after an oil change just find it bit wierd that this happens is it the oil using mobil or is it the engine the ge version model ie gets noiser the older the oil is only guessing its not annoyingly distressing or anything but just slightly puzzling puzzled path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu po cwru edu aas7 from aas7 po cwru edu andrew spencer newsgroups rec autos subject re wife wants convertible date apr gmt organization case western reserve university cleveland oh usa lines message id r4r7b oc usenet ins cwru edu references r1a9hinn2u4 scarecrow mke ab com c5unfj pa usenet ucs indiana edu reply to aas7 po cwru edu andrew spencer nntp posting host slc5 ins cwru edu in previous article twetzel ucs indiana edu tom wetzel says in article r1tth b9i usenet ins cwru edu andrew spencer aas7 po cwru edu writes well actually he didn but we ll pretend the real author of this query has his name tacked in here my wife has informed me that she wants convertible for her next car was about to recommend you consider targa top over convertible but drew made the point very well when my wife and were in our we did the convertible thing with triumphs now in our mid we still appreciate the open air but prefer targa types there is much less wind noise objects papers blowing around foreign objects getting into the car and one still has almost all the advantages of the convertible tom while it being mentioned personally prefer the moonroof sunroof top targa thing as well simply don like cloth tops nor the extra insurance nor the color matching alot of companies do if chose convertible it be mazda rx7 ii just like the way they look it have to be in black with color matched black top they look good vw cabriolet they do suberb job of matching colors too also last year for them collector item mustang gt droptop they look ok too know this doesn help but thought do it anyway good luck to your wife and you drew path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu po cwru edu aas7 from aas7 po cwru edu andrew spencer newsgroups rec autos subject re manual shift bigots date apr gmt organization case western reserve university cleveland oh usa lines message id r4rha usenet ins cwru edu references c5liw2 cax news rich bnr ca apr17 engr washington edu crh regent technik tu muenchen de apr19 engr washington edu apr21 rtsg mot com apr21 bnr ca reply to aas7 po cwru edu andrew spencer nntp posting host slc5 ins cwru edu in previous article dwjz bnr ca doug zolmer says in article apr21 rtsg mot com kissane black berkeley edu john kissane writes as matter of interest does anyone know why autos are so popular in the us while here in europe they are rare just wondering in many of our cities there are traffic signals every feet unsynchronised of course well here in ottawa anyway and the roads are so congested that shifting manually is real pain in the left foot also most canadians are too stupid to learn how to shift manually gee gotta co ordinate my two feet on the clutch brake and accelerator and gotta steer shift and operate the signals optional and radio with my two hands duh it agree wholeheartedly can be done also most north american made cars come with the automatic as standard equipment so why bother with manual when the car can shift for you for no addition money not sure about there in ca but here in us the manuals are quite often the standard equipment of course finding car with one might be hard but if you read the sticker on the window there is usally an additional or so tacked on for that lousy tranny so you actually are paying more just that it sometimes hard to find one that is equipped standard this applies to most cars but not to the luxoyachts eg caddilac licolns etc drew newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu linac att cbnewsk kennyc from kennyc cbnewsk cb att com kenneth crudup subject re v4 v6 v8 v12 vx organization at date thu apr gmt message id c5v1vf et cbnewsk cb att com references apr21 ole cdac com lines in article apr21 ole cdac com ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes am curious about knowing which commericial cars today have engines v8 don know of any kidding right corvette several mbz and bmw mustang gt etc etc there lot of them you from european site kenny kenny crudup att bl mv20 x3219 kenny mvuts att com newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech enterpoop mit edu uhog mit edu xn ll mit edu ll mit edu singer from singer ll mit edu matthew singer subject re opel owners message id apr21 ll mit edu lines sender singer ll mit edu matthew singer reply to singer ll mit edu matthew singer organization mit lincoln laboratory references gibbonsa sfu ca c5sxi4 j9b news cso uiuc edu apr20 cactus org c5t3b2 dg news cso uiuc edu date wed apr gmt in article c5t3b2 dg news cso uiuc edu cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes newsgroups rec autos path llpost ll mit edu xn ll mit edu uhog mit edu wupost howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu news cso uiuc edu uxa cso uiuc edu cka52397 from cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc subject re opel owners date tue apr gmt message id c5t3b2 dg news cso uiuc edu references gibbonsa sfu ca c5sxi4 j9b news cso uiuc edu apr20 cactus org sender usenet news cso uiuc edu net noise owner organization university of illinois at urbana lines boyle cactus org craig boyle writes in article c5sxi4 j9b news cso uiuc edu cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes gibbonsa fraser sfu ca darren gibbons writes looking for information on opel cars now you ask which model well the sad truth is not entirely sure but it two seater with roll over headlights hard top and really sporty looking my friend has one sitting in his yard in really nice condition body wise but he transmission has seized up on him so it hasn run for while does anyone have any info on these cars the engine compartment looks really tight to work on but it is in fine shape and am quite interested in it thanks darren gibbons gibbonsa sfu ca this would be the manta would it not sold through buick dealers in the mid as the price leader sounds lot more like an opel gt to me guess that this is on the same chassis as the kadett rather than the bigger manta but could easily be wrong think the later kadett were sold here as buick opels craig think the manta is the european name for the gt pretty sure that the only kadett sold here were are the pontiac lemans think the gt is just an early to mid manta chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area the gt was based on the kadette chassis it was built model years the manta came out in the model year and was seat coupe matthew singer mit lincoln laboratory wood street singer ll mit edu lexington ma path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net newsserver jvnc net rutgers uhog mit edu xn ll mit edu ll mit edu singer from singer ll mit edu matthew singer newsgroups rec autos subject re opel owners message id apr21 ll mit edu date apr gmt references gibbonsa sfu ca c5sxi4 j9b news cso uiuc edu apr20 convex com sender singer ll mit edu matthew singer reply to singer ll mit edu matthew singer distribution rec autos organization mit lincoln laboratory lines in article apr20 convex com maynard convex com mark maynard writes newsgroups rec autos path llpost ll mit edu xn ll mit edu ames agate howland reston ans net bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu gatech swrinde dptspd tamsun tamu edu news utdallas edu convex convex maynard from maynard convex com mark maynard subject re opel owners message id apr20 convex com sender mark maynard nntp posting host trojan convex com organization convex computer corporation richardson tx usa references gibbonsa sfu ca c5sxi4 j9b news cso uiuc edu distribution rec autos date tue apr gmt disclaimer this message was written by user at convex computer corp the opinions expressed are those of the user and not necessarily those of convex lines in article c5sxi4 j9b news cso uiuc edu cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes gibbonsa fraser sfu ca darren gibbons writes looking for information on opel cars now you ask which model well the sad truth is not entirely sure but it two seater with roll over headlights hard top and really sporty looking gibbonsa sfu ca this would be the manta would it not sold through buick dealers in the mid as the price leader chintan amin sounds more like an opel gt neat cars fun to drive sold through buick from through if remember correctly believe it was in that there were some engine mods made such that parts were not interchangeable with the older models parts are thus much harder to come by for the later models parts in general are not too difficult to find at one time jc whitney carried some stuff including brand new not remfg long block either gt or kharman ghia hmm that spelling looks hosed will be my next project mark in they lowered the engine compression so that it would run on regular gas not to mention the addition of emission controls the also added pop out rear quarter windows alot of parts are available for the gt from small cars in ct and used from bill daley opel parts in ma matthew singer mit lincoln laboratory wood street singer ll mit edu lexington ma newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net torn newshost uwo ca valve heart rri uwo ca wlsmith from wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith subject re questions about insurance companies esp geico organization the john robarts research institute london ontario distribution usa date wed apr gmt message id apr21 julian uwo ca sender news julian uwo ca usenet news system nntp posting host valve heart rri uwo ca lines in article mimsy umd edu davew cs umd edu david wonnacott writes considering switching to geico insurance but have heard that they do not assign specific agent for each policy or claim was worried that this might be real pain when you make claim have also heard that they try to get rid of you if you have an accident ve read in this group that geico has funded the purchasing of radar guns by police depts not sure where path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu po cwru edu aas7 from aas7 po cwru edu andrew spencer newsgroups rec autos subject re v4 v6 v8 v12 vx date apr gmt organization case western reserve university cleveland oh usa lines message id r4sc7 ahh usenet ins cwru edu references apr21 ole cdac com c5uwdh cwv mentor cc purdue edu reply to aas7 po cwru edu andrew spencer nntp posting host slc5 ins cwru edu in previous article marshatt feserve cc purdue edu zauberer says in article apr21 ole cdac com ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes am curious about knowing which commericial cars today have engines v4 don know of any v6 legend mr3 mr6 v8 don know of any are you serious try the deep breath mustang camaro optional on nearly every truck ever built corvettes caprices bmw caddie eldorado fleetwood seville infiniti q45 jeep grand cherokee lexus ls lexus sc lincon mark viii town car sel and the mercury grand marquis to name few v12 jaguar xjs how about v10 viper v16 must be one somewhere believe bugatti coming has out one something like turbos and mucho macho hp one cool price too as heard at any rate the point is pretty sure there is indeed one in production tho rather limited drew path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu po cwru edu aas7 from aas7 po cwru edu andrew spencer newsgroups rec autos subject nissan nomenclature was re manual shift bigots wanted date apr gmt organization case western reserve university cleveland oh usa lines message id r4smd b37 usenet ins cwru edu references c5liw2 cax news rich bnr ca apr17 qurqr doc news ysu edu apr21 westminster ac uk reply to aas7 po cwru edu andrew spencer nntp posting host slc5 ins cwru edu in previous article jkjec westminster ac uk shazad barlas says the best auto shifters on the street and not the track are those from porsche they wont change if you floor the gas during turn few years back was in sx auto you guys call it sx without turbo and was going round corner floored it and next thing know was pointing backwards the other drivers seemed quite amused shaz you are sure that what you call sx we call just curious we also have nissan predacessor sp to the called which came in turbo and nonturbo but don think we ve ever had turbo just curious btw in the us if that matters drew newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu news cso uiuc edu uxa cso uiuc edu cka52397 from cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc subject re opel owners date wed apr gmt message id c5uqtb nk news cso uiuc edu references gibbonsa sfu ca c5sxi4 j9b news cso uiuc edu apr20 cactus org c5t3b2 dg news cso uiuc edu c5tb2f usenet ucs indiana edu sender usenet news cso uiuc edu net noise owner organization university of illinois at urbana lines mliggett silver ucs indiana edu matthew liggett writes in c5t3b2 dg news cso uiuc edu cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes boyle cactus org craig boyle writes in article c5sxi4 j9b news cso uiuc edu cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes gibbonsa fraser sfu ca darren gibbons writes looking for information on opel cars now you ask which model well the sad truth is not entirely sure but it two seater with roll over headlights hard top and really sporty looking my friend has one sitting in his yard in really nice condition body wise but he transmission has seized up on him so it hasn run for while does anyone have any info on these cars the engine compartment looks really tight to work on but it is in fine shape and am quite interested in it thanks darren gibbons gibbonsa sfu ca this would be the manta would it not sold through buick dealers in the mid as the price leader sounds lot more like an opel gt to me guess that this is on the same chassis as the kadett rather than the bigger manta but could easily be wrong think the later kadett were sold here as buick opels craig think the manta is the european name for the gt pretty sure that the only kadett sold here were are the pontiac lemans think the gt is just an early to mid manta chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area bzzt the manta was two door sedan in the us it had engine was sometimes referred to as an opel manta are also ve hot and fun cars too mliggett silver ucs indiana edu mliggett iugold bitnet junk collector toys us kid antiauthoritarian and fan of frogs iguanas and other herps funny the manta over in europe look surprisingly like the opel alluded to by the original poster chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu news cso uiuc edu uxa cso uiuc edu cka52397 from cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc subject re opel owners date wed apr gmt message id c5uqw8 pw news cso uiuc edu references c5t3b2 dg news cso uiuc edu apr21 nuscc nus sg sender usenet news cso uiuc edu net noise owner organization university of illinois at urbana lines matmcinn nuscc nus sg matthew macintyre at the national university of senegal writes by the way what do people think about the opel calibra want one and don want to move to europe to buy one please make it the next pontiac car of course ll have to wait till to buy it chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net torn uunet ca canrem dosgate dosgate nigel allen canrem com from nigel allen nigel allen canrem com subject alternative fuel vehicles message id apr21 dosgate reply to nigel allen nigel allen canrem com organization canada remote systems distribution rec date apr est lines here is press release from the department of energy energy secretary hails president plan for alternative fuel vehicles to national desk environment and energy reporters contact larry hart of the department of energy washington april secretary of energy hazel leary today said president clinton executive order on alternative fuels will make the federal government driving force behind efforts to increase the availability of both alternative fuel vehicles and fuel supplies president clinton signed the order today which calls for federal purchases of alternative fuel vehicles in numbers over the next three years at least percent higher than those called for in the energy policy act of president clinton also announced that texas land commissioner gary mauro will head up the federal fleet conversion task force to advise leary on implementation of the executive order am delighted that will be working with gary mauro to make this happen leary said as land commissioner gary mauro has helped make texas national leader in converting the state fleet to alternative fuels and has been tireless proponent of natural gas vehicles in speeches across the country the task force is to issue report within days recommending plan and schedule of implementation the department of energy and all of us in government must lead by example if the option of alternative fuels is going to become practical affordable choice for fleet owners across the country leary said increased use of domestically produced alternative fuels means reducing pollution while creating jobs we believe that energy efficiency protecting the environment and healthy economy are complimentary goals leary said that plans call for the department of energy to coordinate the agencies five year purchase plans help with funding for extra purchase or conversion costs and work with gsa to encourage development of the fuel infrastructure needed to make fleet conversions practical under the order the department of energy will also be working with states local governments and industry to coordinate vehicle purchases and encourage manufacturers and fuel suppliers to make alternative fuel vehicles and alternative fuels more widely available canada remote systems toronto ontario path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen uunet fibercom rtp rrg from rrg rtp fibercom com rhonda gaines newsgroups rec autos subject hyundai sonata opinions info wanted message id fibercom com date apr gmt sender news fibercom com distribution usa organization fibercom inc roanoke virginia lines nntp posting host rtp like to hear stories on experiences with the hyundai sonata know consumer reports has trashed them but the people know that have them swear by them they also haven had the problems with them that consumer reports claims haven driven one yet have driven hyundai elantra which consumer reports also trashed and was very impressed with it the local hyundai dealership no haggle policy is offering an elantra gls power moonroof for they also have sonata base sunroof for know my preference is for sonata gls sunroof and spd automatic ll decide which engine prefer after test driving both the cyl and the v6 the sonata is also offering rebate hmmm that another question is the following scenario the appropriate manner to handle negotiation make offer subtract rebate from offer talk trade subtract trade from offer to get final price rhonda gaines systems network administrator internet gaines fibercom com fibercom inc box uucp uunet fibercom gaines roanoke va fax phone or x291 path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net gatech phantom gatech edu phantom gatech edu not for mail from grahamt phantom gatech edu graham thomas newsgroups rec autos subject re nissan nomenclature was re manual shift bigots wanted date apr organization georgia institute of technology lines message id r4u27inn5e phantom gatech edu references c5liw2 cax news rich bnr ca apr17 qurqr doc news ysu edu apr21 westminster ac uk r4smd b37 usenet ins cwru edu nntp posting host oit gatech edu aas7 po cwru edu andrew spencer writes you are sure that what you call sx we call just curious we also have nissan predacessor sp to the called which came in turbo and nonturbo but don think we ve ever had turbo just curious btw in the us if that matters drew what we currently know as the sx is known elsewhere as sx graham thomas blah blah blah blah blah georgia institute of technology blah blah blah blah blah internet grahamt oit gatech edu blah blah blah blah blah path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu usenet coe montana edu news washington edu lanmola eliot from eliot lanmola engr washington edu eliot newsgroups rec autos subject re mr2 noisy engine date apr gmt organization clearer than blir lines message id apr21 engr washington edu references r1vofinn871 usenet pa dec com apr21 engr washington edu r3oe8 c93 usenet ins cwru edu nntp posting host lanmola engr washington edu in article r3oe8 c93 usenet ins cwru edu aas7 po cwru edu andrew spencer writes nice theory too bad the mr2 never came with four cylinder over liters more like or did they were the nonturbo mr2ii or some such foot in mouth again drew the first generation mr were which were very smooth be real surprised if the original poster was talking about st generation car the second generation cars were for the non turbo and for the turbo drove the non turbo and calling it unpleasant is to be kind to it also understand that anyone using balancing shafts on four cylinders must pay saab royalty for using their patented design like porsche i4 wrong and wrong mitsubishi owns the patent which has since expired which is why everybody with shred of integrity is putting balance shafts into their big the notable exception is nissan and only for the us market suckers guess we need to write to and start telling them to publish graphs for engine vibration over rpm then you ll see usenet discussions of the form engine has peak vibrations db less than engine therefore engine is better than engine eliot newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet pipex uknet pcl jkjec from jkjec westminster ac uk shazad barlas subject re is car saftey important message id apr23 westminster ac uk organization university of westminster references apr20 bnr ca r1jr9 m1v armory centerline com apr20 magnus acs ohio state edu date fri apr gmt lines of course car safety is important for one used to think that these guys are going way ott with their airtbags sorry del button dont work and side impact bars and crash zones and the list goes on just tpo make the car heavbier and all its penalties bur recently had little accident on my bike and not as bad as john but after the accident it made me realizer should have worn helmet my mom always insistede should was more concerned about my hair style few days agi read report in which the old rea rea shit renault had an accident and its roof caved inwards and crushed the occupents heads path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu tamsun tamu edu tamuts dlb5404 from dlb5404 tamuts tamu edu daryl biberdorf newsgroups rec autos subject plymouth sundance dodge shadow experiences date apr gmt organization texas university college station lines distribution usa message id qmq7tinn9l tamsun tamu edu nntp posting host tamuts tamu edu another user recently requested info about the shadow sundance cars but haven seen any public responses what are people experiences with these cars daryl daryl biberdorf n5gjm biberdorf tamu edu sola gratia sola fide sola scriptura xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com uunet utcsri csri toronto edu mart newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech from mart csri toronto edu mart molle subject re changing oil by self message id apr16 jarvis csri toronto edu references apr14 dsd es com apr14 progress apr15 magnus acs ohio state edu apr15 news cs brandeis edu apr16 msd measurex com distribution mxmsd date apr gmt lines bobml mxmsd msd measurex com bob lagesse writes long silly discussion deleted and while you re at it why bother with removing the drain plug when you could remove the dipstick instead and suck it out from there with your mouth and then spit it out this suggestion isn as far fetched as it sounds years ago in another time and place used to do oil changes in boats powered by automotive engines in many cases there was no way to get any sort of tray under the oil pan because it was boxed in by the bottom of the hull and various floation chambers on each side and if you did get something there you spill all the oil out of it for sure trying to get it back out again so we used small pump powered by an electric drill to suck the oil out the dipstick hole there was long thin hose on the inlet side designed to fit down the dipstick tube and another thicker shorter hose on the outlet side that you put into any convenient container sure these gadgets are still available from marine hardware suppliers if you want one mart molle computer systems research institute university of toronto toronto canada m5s a4 newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com emory gatech usenet ins cwru edu agate dog ee lbl gov newshub nosc mil nosc spectra johnson from johnson spectra com boyd johnson subject re warning please read message id apr16 spectra com organization spectragraphics corporation references apr15 virginia edu qk7t5 dg armory centerline com c5jgc4 ajj dove nist gov date fri apr gmt lines in article c5jgc4 ajj dove nist gov keys starchild ncsl nist gov lawrence keys writes this isn anything new back in was driving under high overpass at night on in san diego when caught glimpse of someone on the overpass as passed under rock slammed against the metal between the winshield and right front window my girlfriend was in the seat next to it called the police from the next exit but doubt if they were found about five years ago in san diego someone was put into coma from brick being thrown through his sunroof as he was driving and subsequently crashed don think he ever came out of the coma and haven heard anything about it for couple years know that this isn the group for it but since you brought it up does anyone have any idea why they haven bombed the waco cult probably because there are many children there also the minor fact that other than defending themselves from some people attacking them they haven threatened or attacked anyone outside the compound in years being promiscuous religious nut does not constitute grounds for mass murder of koresh and his followers sorry for posting this to this group but thought the previous post needed rebuttal if you follow up to this portion please cross post and direct follow ups to more appropriate newsgroup boyd johnson nosc spectra com johnson san diego california intermittent newsfeed at best and only to selected groups my opinions certainly don match those of my employer newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet infonode ingr b30news pamuelle from pamuelle ingr com phil mueller subject re used bmw question message id apr16 b30news b30 ingr com sender pamuelle b30news b30 ingr com phil mueller organization intergraph references apr12 ua1ix ua edu date fri apr gmt lines in article apr12 ua1ix ua edu rpaturi ho12 eng ua edu ravi writes hi am dying to get the answer for the pricing polocy of dealer here in san jose california moved to caal from al you moved from alabama to california my sympathies year model description milage price black looks good sp manual ac cassette sun roof white same as aboove make sure that they have all maintenance records oil should be changed every months the mileage on the cars is fine be sure that these have the valve engine the valve is bmw in name only didn you have line on for jump on it phil mueller pamuelle ingr com or pamuelle nc2145 b30 ingr com ama dod suzuki bandit bmw r100 newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com emory sol ctr columbia edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet destroyer cs ubc ca unixg ubc ca kakwa ucs ualberta ca acs ucalgary ca parr from parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr subject re saturn puzzled by its pricing message id apr16 acs ucalgary ca date fri apr gmt distribution na references mar30 magnus acs ohio state edu pcgv5 oj9 armory centerline com mar31 magnus acs ohio state edu nntp posting host acs3 acs ucalgary ca organization the university of calgary alberta lines in article mar31 magnus acs ohio state edu jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu john nielsen writes in article pcgv5 oj9 armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu john nielsen writes because want to get the lowest price possible it called capitalism have news for you capitalism is the practice of maximizing profits same difference if you lower your costs you increase your profits personally not at all bothered by the saturn pricing scheme if don want to pay as much as they re selling it for can go buy different car from different dealer and they get nothing that competition for you if the dealer can be competitive charging what they do and making that kind of profit that capitalism at it best and more power to em rather have the consumer dictate what things will cost not the dealers sorry but neither dictates the cost it negotiation whether it up front at honda dealership in an all out dickering war or more removed on larger economic scale ie if saturn can sell at it price the price drops or the company stops building them it remains negotiated value controlled by market forces to think that the consumer controls price is ludicrous if the consumer controled price then cars would be free and no one would build cars regards charles within the span of the last few weeks have heard elements of separate threads which in that they have been conjoined in time struck together to form new chord within my hollow and echoing gourd unknown net person path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu rphroy ksg cs gmr com godden from kurt godden godden gmr com newsgroups rec autos subject gm may build toyota badged car date apr gmt organization gm lines distribution world message id qmrrm qr7 link ph gmr com nntp posting host ksg cs gmr com useragent nuntius v1 d16 xxmessage id a7f46b03c301085e ksg cs gmr com xxdate fri apr gmt this appeared today in the the japan economic journal reported gm plans to build toyota badged car in the us for sale in japan bruce macdonald vp of gm corporate communications yesterday confirmed that gm president and ceo jack smith had meeting recently with tatsuro toyoda president of toyota this meeting the two discussed business opportunities to increase gm exports to japan including further component sales as well as completed vehicle sales parts sales the two presidents agreed conceptually to pursue an arrangement whereby gm would build toyota badged right hand drive vehicle in the us for sale by toyota in japan working group has been formed to finalize model specifications exact timing and other details xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu sorlin from sorlin magnus acs ohio state edu steven orlin subject re changing oil by self message id apr16 magnus acs ohio state edu sender news magnus acs ohio state edu nntp posting host magnusug magnus acs ohio state edu organization the ohio state university references apr14 progress apr15 magnus acs date fri apr gmt lines in article apr15 news cs brandeis edu andyh chaos cs brandei edu andrew huang writes in article apr15 magnus acs ohio state edu sorlin magnus ac ohio state edu steven orlin writes take the electrodes of the amp ohm volt meter whatever and connect one to each earlobe then symmetrically insert my fingers in each of the spark plug boots no cheating guys both hands must be used have just couple of questions about this technique first what firing order should use do start with my pointer finger or my pinky left hand or right place your hands flat on table and arrange the firing order from left to right and secondly have cyl and there are two cylinders unaccounted for any suggestions well you have friends don you cylinders might be more excitement than one person can take newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com ncr sd ncrcae grok85 columbiasc ncr com danmg from danmg grok85 columbiasc ncr com daniel adams subject re bmw series for message id apr16 ncrcae columbiasc ncr com nntp posting host grok85 columbiasc ncr com reply to dan grok85 columbiasc ncr com organization ncr corporation references eabu288 dialin33635 slip nts uci edu qll56innp9r uwm edu date fri apr gmt lines in article qll56innp9r uwm edu qazi csd4 csd uwm edu aamir hafeez qazi writes from article eabu288 dialin33635 slip nts uci edu by eabu288 orion oac uci edu alvin is there going to be bmw in could be isn the liter six supposed to be enlarged to liters in the not too distant future makes sense since the new mercedes benz engines go from to nothing in between btw beleive the numbers on those mb engines are and hp respectively the one upmanship in hp might induce bmw to create larger six also the has lagged behind the er for some time wrt hp am sure the bavarians wouldn want to be shown up by the schwabians ps those mb engines haven been released over here yet daniel newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net nic umass edu caen zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu geraldo cc utexas edu slcs slb com dcd from dcd se houston geoquest slb com dan day subject re warning please read message id apr16 slcs slb com sender news slcs slb com news administrator nntp posting host mudd se houston geoquest slb com organization geoquest system inc houston references c5jcpa ptt austin ibm com apr15 icf hrb com c5k9m5 ku constellation ecn uoknor edu date fri apr gmt lines in article c5k9m5 ku constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james callison writes if hear someone screwing with my car ie setting off the alarm and taunting me to come out you can be damn sure that my colt delta elite will also be coming with me it not the screwing with the car that get them shot it the potential physical danger if they re taunting like that it very possible that they also intend to rob me and or do other physically harmful things here in houston last year woman heard the sound of someone in her garage so she went to investigate with gun in her hand she found guy in the process of stealing her bicycle she quite reasonably asked him to stop he refused began taunting her and as the woman was quoted in the police report he told me to go ahead and shoot him so did the moron survived and no charges were filed against the woman newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech swrinde zaphod mps ohio state edu darwin sura net spool mu edu sgiblab sgigate sgi wdl1 spl1 spl loral com gwm from gwm spl1 spl loral com gary mahan subject re it rush was re too fast message id apr16 wdl loral com sender news wdl loral com organization loral software productivity laboratory date fri apr gmt lines why should good driver be terrified at mph the only thing fear going at are drivers who switch to the left lane without using either rear view mirror or flashers doing to ain rush for me but it fun and get where want to go much faster in defense of the drivers who are in the right lane here in the states people simply do not expect when they are driving to be overtaken at speed differential of mph don think this is because they are stupid of course there are exceptions they are just programmed because of the mph limit do you in the states when you look in the rear view always calculate future positions of cars based on speed differential dont get me wrong love to drive in the left lane fast but when overtake cars who are on the right slow down tad bit if were to rely on the judgement of the other car to recognize the speed differential would be the stupid one btw if no one else is around then go for it newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen uwm edu linac att cbnewsm arm1 from arm1 cbnewsm cb att com arlen martin subject squeekin windows organization at distribution usa date fri apr gmt message id c5l9k5 iw8 cbnewsm cb att com lines consumer reports once wrote about the blazer that it shook and rattled like tired taxi cab there is one noise that is expecially irritating the back window squeaks believe its because the whole tailgate assembly and window are not solid anyway has anyone had the same problem and have you found any fixes arlen martin at microelectronics att attme stcarm newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech udel darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu linac sunova sscvx1 ssc gov bbenson from bbenson sscvx1 ssc gov subject re mazda just does not feel right message id apr16 sscvx1 ssc gov lines sender usenet sunova ssc gov news admin nntp posting host sscvx1 organization superconducting super collider laboratory references mxm1003 msi umn edu date fri apr gmt in article mxm1003 msi umn edu mxm1003 s15 msi umn edu ram mohan writes ve mazda with about miles on it recently do not get good feeling of the road esp on wet pavement when driving the car it feels as if the car is wandering and there is no grip on the road the tires are the original ones and have threads on them passes the penny head test had the shocks and struts and alignment checked and things are fine however feel like that dont have the grip of the road and feel as if the car is wandering esp on turns any help in this is appreciated thanks two shots at it check the tires again if you can see the wear bars you re down to problem area and some tires pass penny test between the bars that no guide at all your problem in the wet is call hydroplaning you may not have enough tread left to channel water out from under the tire so it goes fishy on you as it lifts off the road tires age in particular soft tire compounds get harder as you put them thru more heat cycles harder compounds don grip as well as soft ones effect is very noticable on tires that get very hot very often such as in competition but it hits all tires bob benson newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu news cso uiuc edu orion me uiuc edu bhaskar from bhaskar orion me uiuc edu bhaskar manda subject re it rush was re too fast date fri apr gmt message id bhaskar orion me uiuc edu references apr16 wdl loral com sender usenet news cso uiuc edu net noise owner organization university of illinois at urbana lines gwm spl1 spl loral com gary mahan writes why should good driver be terrified at mph the only thing fear going at are drivers who switch to the left lane without using either rear view mirror or flashers doing to ain rush for me but it fun and get where want to go much faster in defense of the drivers who are in the right lane here in the states people simply do not expect when they are driving to be overtaken at speed differential of mph don think this is because they are stupid of course there are exceptions they are just programmed because of the mph limit do you in the states when you look in the rear view always calculate future positions of cars based on speed differential dont get me wrong love to drive in the left lane fast but when overtake cars who are on the right slow down tad bit if were to rely on the judgement of the other car to recognize the speed differential would be the stupid one btw if no one else is around then go for it keep up the good work guys afterall the cops need to be occupied with someone so that lesser mortals like us can be left alone bhaskar orion me uiuc edu newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen malgudi oar net zaphod mps ohio state edu moe ksu ksu edu osuunx ucc okstate edu constellation uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison from callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james callison subject re dumbest automotive concepts of all time sender usenet constellation ecn uoknor edu usenet administrator message id c5l84o mvb constellation ecn uoknor edu date fri apr gmt distribution na references apr6 cbnewsj cb att com c5hhgm rm constellation ecn uoknor edu drutx att com nntp posting host uokmax ecn uoknor edu organization engineering computer network university of oklahoma norman ok usa lines in article drutx att com klf druwa att com franklinkl writes in article c5hhgm rm constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james callison writes in article apr13 slcs slb com dcd se houston geoquest slb com dan day writes in article q4466innb85 ctron news ctron com smith ctron com writes it big aftermarket business almost no cars come from the factory with vynal any more and any fake convertible job definitely came from some aftermarket place what amazes me is how much people are willing to pay for bad taste how about those really ugly fake wheel compartments stuck onto the trunk or side or both sides of some tacky luxury cars some of em aren fake if you re talking about the continental kit named after the lincoln continental the first car to sport one personally would love to have bird with continental kit and the supercharged that is one of the most beautiful cars ever built imho james the continental may have been the first modern era auto to mount the spare on the rear of the car but it was hardly the first car to sport one various mounting techniques for rear mounting the spare were quite common in early automobiles both us and foreign the lincoln continental was the first car to sport the continental kit the continental kit is not to be confused with ye olde outside mounting bracket continental kit is very specific ornament storage compartment the continental has neat trunk it looks rather like laundry hamper imho james james callison microcomputer coordinator of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer not an engineer but play one at work the forecast calls for thunder bird sc it hell of thing killing man you take away all he has and all he ever gonna have will munny unforgiven newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen malgudi oar net zaphod mps ohio state edu moe ksu ksu edu osuunx ucc okstate edu constellation uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison from callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james callison subject re sho and sc sender usenet constellation ecn uoknor edu usenet administrator message id c5l8re constellation ecn uoknor edu date fri apr gmt references chrissc587qb d1b netcom com unisql uucp apr15 ganglion ann arbor mi us nntp posting host uokmax ecn uoknor edu organization engineering computer network university of oklahoma norman ok usa lines in article apr15 ganglion ann arbor mi us david ganglion ann arbor mi us david hwang writes in article unisql uucp wrat unisql uucp wharfie writes in article chrissc587qb d1b netcom com chriss netcom com chris silvester writes wagon which have heard is somehow slightly faster than the coupe wagon has an automatic it slower could be due to the rear end ratio also usually automatics have different rear ends than manuals from my limited experience anyways you ll have fun looking for the rear end gears on an sho the taurus is front wheel drive vehicle went back and checked the article again the sho wagon is quicker than the sho automatic but significantly slower than the real sho why anyone would order an sho with an automatic transmission is beyond me if you can handle stick you should stick with regular taurus and leave the sho to real drivers that is not to say that there aren real drivers who can use the stick eg disabled persons but they aren in any position to use an sho anyway would be willing to bet that if we removed the automatic transmissions from all performance type cars like the mustangs camaros and the like we cut down on the number of accidents each year autos are fine for sedate little sedans but they have no business in performance cars imho james james callison microcomputer coordinator of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer not an engineer but play one at work the forecast calls for thunder bird sc it hell of thing killing man you take away all he has and all he ever gonna have will munny unforgiven path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu menudo uh edu not for mail opuglies from opuglies academ01 mty itesm mx ing orlando pugliese newsgroups rec autos subject is this good price date apr gmt organization itesm campus monterrey lines message id opuglies mtecv2 nntp posting host mtecv2 mty itesm mx hi everybody will buy honda civic ex coupe the dealer ask for it including installed but not including stereo tax registration fees live in mexico so don have time to go to lot of dealers and compare their prices the dealer is in mcallen tx is this good price for that car if not how much should pay for it please mail asap if you don want to post thanks lot orlando pugliese opuglies mtecv2 mty itesm mx orlando pugliese instituto tecnologico de estudios superiores de monterrey depto de informacion academica monterrey mexico ext newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen zaphod mps ohio state edu sample eng ohio state edu purdue mentor cc purdue edu noose ecn purdue edu rainbow ecn purdue edu rjwade from rjwade rainbow ecn purdue edu robert wade subject re plymouth sundance dodge shadow experiences message id c5l9ow um noose ecn purdue edu sender news noose ecn purdue edu usenet news organization purdue university engineering computer network references qmq7tinn9l tamsun tamu edu distribution usa date fri apr gmt lines in article qmq7tinn9l tamsun tamu edu dlb5404 tamuts tamu edu daryl biberdorf writes another user recently requested info about the shadow sundance cars but haven seen any public responses what are people experiences with these cars daryl they are pretty much junk stay away from them they will be replaced next year with all new models newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu linac att cbnewsm smartin from smartin cbnewsm cb att com steven martin subject re car buying story was christ another dealer service scam organization at distribution usa date fri apr gmt message id c5lb0a jle cbnewsm cb att com references apr16 newsgate sps mot com lines from article apr16 newsgate sps mot com by markm bigfoot sps mot com mark monninger this kind of behavior is what was shocked by in my experience for crying out loud how do these turkeys think they can talk to customers this way and still stay in business again don expect sales people to bow scrape and grovel in my presence but sure don expect to be abused either was very surprised by the way the sales people talked to me and in other negotiating sessions overheard in neighboring sales cubicles evidently their success rate is high enough that they continue to do business this way there must be lot of people out there who are easy to intimidate couple of months ago went to dealership to test drive car afterwards we sat down to discuss prices explained that wanted car just like the one drove but in different color he said he could get one exactly like wanted from the dealer network within day we then negotiated price and signed the deal next day get call he explains that they goofed and they had neglected to take into account price increase the last price increase had occurred over months prior to my visit if still wanted the car would have to fork over another as an alternative they would honor the price if bought the car test drove which had been sitting around for months and had few miles on it said goodbye this was good example of how they can lowball you and still cover their butts it too bad more people don demand honesty or these types of dealers would no longer be in business the next dealership went to was straightforward and honest first thing the salesman said was lets see what you have for dealer cost and work out how much profit should make the deal went through with no problems steve xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech rec autos driving newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech rec autos driving path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet psgrain qiclab al from al qiclab scn rain com alan peterman subject re electronic odometer message id apr16 qiclab scn rain com organization scn research qic laboratories of tigard oregon references apr12 ua1ix ua edu c5fp8b co megatest com date fri apr gmt lines in article c5fp8b co megatest com alung megatest com aaron lung writes if not mistaken altering the odometer is illegal furthermore surmise it ll be tough to alter bmw odometer if you got at it some of the newer bmw have electronic odometers making it even more tamperproof on the cars mentioned series from the late the electronic odometer is really mechanical drum type odometer that is driven by pulses from speed sensor on the rear axle these pulses are converted into mechanical pulses that turn the odometer and speedometer no way changing or erasing an eprom is going to change the mileage reading it also means the odometer is just as easy or hard to change as any other mechanical odometer on the other hand it is bit easier to disconnect the speed sensor and run the car with no speedometer or odometer reading simple switch will do the job it also will disable the speed limiter which will enable the car to reach it full speed alan peterman hm work al qiclab scn rain com it odd how as get older the days are longer but the years are shorter newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen uwm edu cs utexas edu geraldo cc utexas edu slcs slb com news from baker dfwvx1 dallas geoquest slb com subject insurance says car is totalled message id apr16 slcs slb com sender news slcs slb com news administrator nntp posting host dfwvx1 dallas geoquest slb com reply to baker dfwdsr sinet slb com organization schlumberger data services dallas date fri apr gmt lines on wednesday morning another driver decided to illegally turn left in front of me doing great damage to my car honda civic have yet to pay off the car and the body shop says the insurance company wants to total the car haven been able to get in touch with the person handling my claim so checked on some things my payout is blue book retail is loan value is trade in value is could anyone give me any advice on what should could do if the insurance company does not give me reasonable amount for the loss of the car thanks james baker baker dfwvx1 dallas geoquest slb com newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net spool mu edu nigel msen com yale edu yale gumby destroyer cs ubc ca unixg ubc ca kakwa ucs ualberta ca acs ucalgary ca parr from parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr subject options that would be great to have message id apr16 acs ucalgary ca date fri apr gmt references apr16 acs ucalgary ca nntp posting host acs3 acs ucalgary ca organization the university of calgary alberta lines list of options that would be useful they can be existing options on car or things you like to have tripmeter great little gadget lets you keep rough track of mileage makes good second guesser for your gas gauge full size spare built in mountings and power systems for radar detectors fitting that allows you to generate household current with the engine running and plug ins in the trunk engine compartment and cabin feel free to add on regards charles within the span of the last few weeks have heard elements of separate threads which in that they have been conjoined in time struck together to form new chord within my hollow and echoing gourd unknown net person newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net spool mu edu nigel msen com yale edu yale gumby destroyer cs ubc ca unixg ubc ca kakwa ucs ualberta ca acs ucalgary ca parr from parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr subject dumb options list message id apr16 acs ucalgary ca date fri apr gmt nntp posting host acs3 acs ucalgary ca organization the university of calgary alberta lines the idea here is to list pointless options you know stuff you get on car that has no earthly use power windows add as you wish regards charles within the span of the last few weeks have heard elements of separate threads which in that they have been conjoined in time struck together to form new chord within my hollow and echoing gourd unknown net person path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu po cwru edu aas7 from aas7 po cwru edu andrew spencer newsgroups rec autos subject re it rush was re too fast date apr gmt organization case western reserve university cleveland oh usa lines message id qn1ar roi usenet ins cwru edu references apr16 wdl loral com reply to aas7 po cwru edu andrew spencer nntp posting host slc5 ins cwru edu in previous article gwm spl1 spl loral com gary mahan says why should good driver be terrified at mph the only thing fear going at are drivers who switch to the left lane without using either rear view mirror or flashers doing to ain rush for me but it fun and get where want to go much faster in defense of the drivers who are in the right lane here in the states people simply do not expect when they are driving to be overtaken at speed differential of mph don think this is because they are stupid of course there are exceptions they are just programmed because of the mph limit do you in the states when you look in the rear view always calculate future positions of cars based on speed differential dont get me wrong love to drive in the left lane fast but when overtake cars who are on the right slow down tad bit if were to rely on the judgement of the other car to recognize the speed differential would be the stupid one just to satiate my curiosity why would this make you the stupid one it seems to me everybody should be aware enough of what is going on you do not need to calculate the future position you need to look at your mirrors little more if you glance around you will be able to tell how much faster than you the car is going maybe not precisely but well enough to know if you should let him around before you try to pass know what you are talking about about the other driver being startled because myself have been startled by drivers cruising by at around mph when doin the problem though as saw it was not their fault for barreling around me but my fault for not paying the attention to my task at hand that should have been oddly enough since the nd time happened in around mo when had my liscence for around mo haven been startled and ve been passed by cars doing roughly twice the speed of my car another odd occurance is the fact that this only seems to happen on long trips and if drive along with them it doesn happen at all even on the long trips adrenaline will do that to you ve had bad cop experiences with speeding so anything over the limit is adrenalizing for me scared ll get caught maybe they should raise the limit so we can pay better attention just curious and my otwo drew newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com hpscit sc hp com cupnews0 cup hp com news1 boi hp com jburrill from jburrill boi hp com jim burrill subject re squeekin windows sender news boi hp com news server project message id c5ld8r qd boi hp com date fri apr gmt distribution usa references c5l9k5 iw8 cbnewsm cb att com organization idaho river country the salmon payette clearwater boise selway priest newsreader tin version pl6 lines arlen martin arm1 cbnewsm cb att com wrote consumer reports once wrote about the blazer that it shook and rattled like tired taxi cab there is one noise that is expecially irritating the back window squeaks believe its because the whole tailgate assembly and window are not solid anyway has anyone had the same problem and have you found any fixes can relate to this ve tried everything on my greasing every point wd40 etc grease on the two cheap hinges on the tailgate seems to quiet it down for time until the grease works out of the hinges hinge pins appear to be made out of penny nails another vibration seems to get worse with age and that is vibration in the transmission in th gear my s10 has miles on it bought it new treated it very easily no fast off road stuff can gm build chevies like they used to ford explorers look nice until you look at the price jim burrill path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu sol ctr columbia edu destroyer vela acs oakland edu news from mje pookie pass wayne edu michael edelman newsgroups rec autos subject re saturn pricing policy date apr gmt organization wayne state university lines distribution world message id qn19m c9s vela acs oakland edu references oasys dt navy mil reply to mje pookie pass wayne edu nntp posting host pookie pass wayne edu just ordered saturn sl1 after considering few imports frankly the saturn way of doing business and service was very big plus hadn bought new car since bought my honda wd back in and was unbelieveably offended by most salespeople met saturn was indeed very different made three different visits to the dealer where bought my car and was never pressured saturn also had the best after sales support and the fixed pricing made it very easy for me to decide exactly what wanted to buy another big selling point was running into my mechanic at the dealer he been fixing imports for years and bought saturn based on what he seen and heard from his customers saturn also has good extended warranty program for year miles fully refunded if you don use it that works out to an actual cost of or so based on the year treasury rates using savings account rates it more like in the first three years it also buys you free rental during any warranty work without counting against the refund mike newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu csc ti com tilde csc ti com mksol moe a207706 from a207706 moe dseg ti com robert loper subject re sho and sc message id apr16 mksol dseg ti com sender usenet mksol dseg ti com usenet news nntp posting host sun278 dseg ti com organization forest lane design center references unisql uucp apr15 ganglion ann arbor mi us c5l8re constellation ecn uoknor edu date fri apr gmt lines in article c5l8re constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james callison writes in article apr15 ganglion ann arbor mi us david ganglion ann arbor mi us david hwang writes in article unisql uucp wrat unisql uucp wharfie writes in article chrissc587qb d1b netcom com chriss netcom com chris silvester writes why anyone would order an sho with an automatic transmission is beyond me if you can handle stick you should stick with regular taurus and leave the sho to real drivers that is not to say that there aren real drivers who can use the stick eg disabled persons but they aren in any position to use an sho anyway would be willing to bet that if we removed the automatic transmissions from all performance type cars like the mustangs camaros and the like we cut down on the number of accidents each year autos are fine for sedate little sedans but they have no business in performance cars imho james have to disagree with this have z28 with and speed auto overdrive and it is really better that way chevy autos are reknowned for their long life and ability to handle copious amount of power live in the dallas area and manual would be much harder to drive in the traffic here now if still lived out in the sticks like used to manual would be more fun safety wise an auto is less distracting would hate to have to be shifting gears while was trying to ease into traffic in the freeways here performance wise can hold my own against any stock mustang or camaro five speed all of this imho robert loper infinity is notion best contemplated robertll flopn2 dseg ti com in warm bed texas instruments inc my opinions are my own not ti path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu unisql wrat from wrat unisql uucp wharfie newsgroups rec autos subject re too fast message id unisql uucp date apr gmt references qh61m b6l armory centerline com unisql uucp qkon8 re armory centerline com organization unisql inc austin texas usa lines in article qkon8 re armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes larger engine that what the sho is slightly modified family sedan with powerful engine they didn even bother improving the brakes that shows how much you know about anything the brakes on the sho are very different inch or forget discs all around vented in front the normal taurus setup is smaller discs front drums rear your argument still boils down to an sho shouldn be driven fast because jim frost say it isn designed to go fast pffffftttttt if you think so you sure don pay attention to my postings damn straight you re one of those people who makes stuff up and tries to pawn it off as god own truth if want lies can go listen to television the wharf rat path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu unisql wrat from wrat unisql uucp wharfie newsgroups rec autos subject re where can get new york taxi message id unisql uucp date apr gmt references ncrcan canada ncr ca distribution na organization unisql inc austin texas usa lines in article ncrcan canada ncr ca tnelson ncrcan canada ncr ca tim nelson writes the older ny taxis were made by the checker car company and would love to have one or is the checker car company still in business checker motors went out of business in it hard to get old checkers that are worth restoring since almost every one was fleet vehicle that was driven into the ground if you can get body in decent shape the mechanicals should all be available somewhere checker used whatever parts were around for instance had chevy straight six and gmc truck radiator and ford rear in mine the model that am looking for is the checker marathon actually you want checker special if you can find one good luck sorry let mine go newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net spool mu edu agate headwall stanford edu csd newshost stanford edu xenon stanford edu gregg from gregg xenon stanford edu gregg kasten subject differences in insurance companies rates message id gregg xenon stanford edu keywords insurance sender news csd newshost stanford edu organization cs department stanford university california usa distribution ca date apr gmt lines am considering buying an new car so called three insurance companies in california to get estimates asked for the same coverage and same deductibles most of the companies charge you according to your zip code others charge according to your city anyhow gave the same zip code and city to all three places here what found for integra gs aaa yr state farm yr allstate yr aaa is non profit so they said could also expect to receive about back at the end of the year still there is huge gap between all of these companies state farm wants more than twice as much as allstate think should be suspicious but ve never heard anybody else complain any comments thanks gregg kasten gregg cs stanford edu newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech concert decwrl adobe usenet from hamachi adobe com gordon hamachi subject re honda accord brake problem message id apr16 adobe com sender usenet adobe com usenet news organization adobe systems incorporated references qkg4pinn9s4 mizar usc edu date fri apr gmt lines joni ciarletta writes my honda accord just hit the magic mile mark and now all sorts of things are beginning to go bad the latest problem am experiencing is with my brakes they still stop the car fine but once am stopped completely my brake pedal will sink another or inches all by itself if feels really strange and am worried my brakes will quit working one of these days checked my brake fluid and the reservoir was full but the fluid itself looked really dirty like dirty oil called my mechanic and he told me need new brake master cylinder which will cost me whopping you are not alone my honda accord with miles on it started showing the same behavior replaced the brake master cylinder myself it took about an hour and cost about sure beats paying to have someone else do it if wanted to rebuild my own master cylinder instead of putting in rebuilt one it would have cost only to for the rebuild kit the honda brake master cylinder is easy to get to two bolts attach it to the engine compartment two brake lines enter the master cylinder the tricky part was that the brake lines were stuck tight my craftsmen open end wrench rounded off the bolt heads had to use vise grips to loosen those suckers wow best invention since sliced bread after that it was very easy bolt the new part in place add new brake fluid and bleed the brakes this is quite easy even for beginner my local auto parts store had repair manual for the honda accord it had detailed diagrams of the master brake cylinder and step by step procedure for replacing it path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu malgudi oar net news ysu edu yfn ysu edu ak296 from ak296 yfn ysu edu john daker newsgroups rec autos subject re options that would be great to have date apr gmt organization st elizabeth hospital youngstown oh lines message id qn2vj tc news ysu edu references apr16 acs ucalgary ca apr16 acs ucalgary ca reply to ak296 yfn ysu edu john daker nntp posting host yfn ysu edu in previous article parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr says list of options that would be useful they can be existing options on car or things you like to have tripmeter great little gadget lets you keep rough track of mileage makes good second guesser for your gas gauge full size spare built in mountings and power systems for radar detectors fitting that allows you to generate household current with the engine running and plug ins in the trunk engine compartment and cabin feel free to add on power windows dod darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them albert einstein the eternal champion path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net spool mu edu nigel msen com yale edu yale gumby destroyer vela acs oakland edu news from mje pookie pass wayne edu michael edelman newsgroups rec autos subject manual shift bigots date apr gmt organization wayne state university lines distribution world message id qn2lo c9s vela acs oakland edu reply to mje pookie pass wayne edu nntp posting host pookie pass wayne edu now my ego with regards to my shifting ability is as big as anyone else but just ordered my first car with an auto trans wasn planning on it but after driving few was convinced things have changed since the days of slip slide withe powerglide they shift better than do there no clutch to wear out honda wanted for my wd wagon last year got it done for it only costs about in gas milage on the highway and it makes it easier to concentrate on all the radios in my car oddly enough while two of my best friends both in the auto industry here in the motor city have switched wholeheartedly to autos their wives insist on manual shift envy braggadocio aside given today technology and the warranties they re handing out the auto trans seemed like an excellent choice call me convert mike path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net spool mu edu nigel msen com yale edu yale gumby destroyer vela acs oakland edu news from mje pookie pass wayne edu michael edelman newsgroups rec autos subject re saturn manual transmission problem date apr gmt organization wayne state university lines distribution world message id qn34f c9s vela acs oakland edu references c5fwjx ka6 crdnns crd ge com reply to mje pookie pass wayne edu nntp posting host pookie pass wayne edu in article ka6 crdnns crd ge com cimjfg sn370 utica ge com writes after many trips to the dealer who has admittedly been patient with me they are admittedly going to do nothing about it the dealer did however follow the bulletin and review proper shifing procedures with the owner my next attempt at satisfaction in the customer number but from the first round it doesn sound too hopeful surprised know of local case where guy took his saturn back five times to complain they hadn properly eliminated rattling noise so saturn gave him new car call that number newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net wupost uunet murphy jpradley magpie manes from manes magpie linknet com steve manes subject re oops oh no organization manes and associates nyc date thu apr gmt message id c4tfwi dlp magpie linknet com newsreader tin version pl9 references pd49g a8m vtserf cc vt edu lines wm ranck ranck joesbar cc vt edu wrote hate to admit this and still mentally kicking myself for it rode the brand new k75rt home last friday night miles in rain and darkness no problems got it home and put it on the center stand the next day pushed it off the center stand in preparation for going over to friend house to pose you guessed it it got away from me and landed on its right side scratched the lower fairing cracked the right mirror and cracked the upper fairing damn am stupid it going to cost me to get the local body shop to fix it and that is after take the fairing off for them still that probably cheaper than the mirror alone if bought replacement from bmw you got off cheap my sister ex boyfriend was such an incessant pain in the ass about wanting to ride my bikes no way jose that finally took him to lindner bmw in new canaan ct last fall where had seen nice used k100rs in perfect condition after telling everyone in the shop his norton war stories from fifteen years ago signing the liability waiver and getting his pre flight off he went well not quite walked out of pizza shop up the street feeling good about myself made my sister boyfriend happy and got the persistent wanker off my ass for good heard the horrendous racket of an engine tortured to its red line and then crash saw people running towards the obvious source of the disturbance jeff laying under the bmw with the rear wheel spinning wildly and someone groping for the kill switch stared in disbelief with slice hanging out of my mouth as matty the shop manager slid up beside me and asked friend of yours steve shit matty it could have been worse that could been my flhs jeff hadn made it inches witnesses said he lifted his feet before letting out the clutch and gravity got the best of him jeff claimed that the clutch didn engage matty was quick while jeff was still stuttering in embarrassed shock he managed to snatch jeff credit card for quick imprint and signature twenty minutes later when jeff color had paled to flush matty presented him with an estimate of for busted right mirror and hairline crack in the fairing that was for fixing the crack and masking the damaged area not new fairing or he could buy the bike not sure what happened later as my sister split up with jeff shortly afterwards to hook up with another piece of work except that matty told me he ran the charge through in december and that it went uncontested stephen manes manes magpie linknet com manes and associates new york ny usa path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse network ucsd edu news service uci edu ucivax megatek randy from randy megatek com randy davis newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re miracle in california message id apr5 megatek com date apr gmt article megatek apr5 references cv3dtx01 juts ccc amdahl com ppvof seven up east sun com sender randy megatek com randy davis reply to randy megatek com organization megatek corporation san diego california lines in article ppvof seven up east sun com egreen east sun com writes bikers wave to bikers the world over whether or not harley riders wave to other bikers is one of our favorite flame wars am happy to say that some harley riders in our area are better than most that are flamed about here riding lowly sport bike no less and my girlfriend were the recipient of no less than twenty waves from group of at least twenty five harley riders was leading group of about four sport bikes at the time fj1200 cbr900rr vfr750 initiated some of the waves but not all it was perfect day and friendly riders despite some brand differences made it all the better randy davis email randy megatek com zx pilot uunet ucsd megatek randy dod path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech news feed peachnet edu umn edu msus1 msus edu stafford winona msus edu user newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re more dod paraphernalia message id stafford stafford winona msus edu from stafford vax2 winona msus edu john stafford date apr followup to rec motorcycles references apr5 rd hydro on ca pppnrinnitg cronkite central sun com distribution world organization winona state university nntp posting host stafford winona msus edu lines in article pppnrinnitg cronkite central sun com doc webrider central sun com steve bunis wrote how about decal of thicker vinyl how about geeky temporary tatoo mean why should the rubs be exempt from little razzing john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net uunet news news world net connected com eskimo maven from maven eskimo com norman hamer subject re miracle in california message id c504qj eskimo com organization eskimo north for ever references speedy engr latech edu date mon apr gmt lines re waving must say that the courtesy of nod or wave as meet other bikers while riding does lot of good things to my mood while riding is lot of fun by itself there something really special about having someone say to you hey it great day for ride isn it wonderful that we can spend some time on the road on days like this with gesture was sunny today for the first time in week took my bike out for spin down to the local salvage yard bike shop ran into about other people who were down there for similar reasons there this great stretch of road on the way down there no side streets lotsa leaning bends went on an impromptu coffee and bullshit run down to puyallup with batch of people who didn know but who were my kinda people nonetheless as fellow commented to me while was admiring his bike hey it not what you ride it that you ride as long as it has wheels and an engine it the same thing maven eskimo com internet maven mavenry altcit eskimo com usenet the maven the mavenry alternet newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu utnut torn watserv2 uwaterloo ca aphid watstar uwaterloo ca mjmuise from mjmuise watstar uwaterloo ca mike muise subject re drinking and riding message id mjmuise watstar uwaterloo ca lines sender news watserv2 uwaterloo ca organization waterloo engineering references c4wkbp b9w eskimo com apr3 galaxy gov bc ca date sun apr gmt in article c4wkbp b9w eskimo com maven eskimo com norman hamer writes what is general rule of thumb for sobriety and cycling couple hours after you feel sober what or should just work with if drink tonight don ride until tomorrow hr drink for the first drinks hours drink for the next drinks hours drink for the rest these are fairly cautious guidelines and will work even if you happen to have low tolerance or body mass think the cops and don you dare drink drive tm commercials will usually say hr drink in general but after about drinks and hrs you could very well be over the legal limit watch yourself mike mike muise mjmuise watstar uwaterloo ca no quotes no jokes electrical engineering university of waterloo no disclaimer no fear path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov ames sun barr news2me ebay sun com seven up east sun com laser egreen from egreen east sun com ed green pixel cruncher newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re insect impacts date apr gmt organization sun microsystems rtp nc lines distribution world message id ppvds seven up east sun com references apr2 rd hydro on ca reply to egreen east sun com nntp posting host laser east sun com in article rd hydro on ca jlevine rd hydro on ca jody levine writes how do the helmetless do it um the same way people do it on horseback not as fast and they would probably enjoy eating bugs anyway every bit as fast as dirtbike in the right terrain and we eat flies thank you jeeps you re supposed to keep the windscreen up then why does it go down snow skis no bugs and most poeple who go fast wear goggles so do most helmetless motorcyclists the question still stands how do cruiser riders with no or negligible helmets stand being on the highway at mph on buggy summer evenings helmetless goggleless ed green former ninjaite was drinking last night with biker ed green east sun com and showed him picture of you said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least could do path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net agate ames sun barr news2me ebay sun com seven up east sun com laser egreen from egreen east sun com ed green pixel cruncher newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re miracle in california date apr gmt organization sun microsystems rtp nc lines distribution world message id ppvof seven up east sun com references cv3dtx01 juts ccc amdahl com reply to egreen east sun com nntp posting host laser east sun com in article cv3dtx01 juts ccc amdahl com bws20 duts ccc amdahl com brian simmons writes now maybe this isn big deal to some of you but it is to me was raised in the south and part of my cultural heritage is waving at passersby waved from the side of the road at passing cars when drove waved or nodded or at least raised an index finger from the steering wheel people waved at me as drove by was raised in the south and can attest that this is true why on one particularly hot day as was walking along the road some good ole boys in truck tossed me cold beer of course they were going mph at the time to prove this wasn fluke it happened to me again when was out riding on wednesday an unsolicited wave wow bikers wave to bikers the world over whether or not harley riders wave to other bikers is one of our favorite flame wars ed green former ninjaite was drinking last night with biker ed green east sun com and showed him picture of you said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least could do path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse emory gatech taco jrwaters from jrwaters eos ncsu edu jack rogers waters newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re cultural enquiries message id apr5 ncsu edu date apr gmt article ncsu apr5 references mar17 aber ac uk phuse u1 sixgun east sun com c50ugg as cmptrc lonestar org sender news ncsu edu usenet news system organization north carolina state university project eos lines in article c50ugg as cmptrc lonestar org irwin cmptrc lonestar org irwin arnstein writes in article phuse u1 sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes in article aber ac uk azw aber ac uk andy woodward writes two questions that fascinate me check you local blue light special for sale on lives why are rednecks called rednecks the origin of the slang is probably reference to sunburned neck often obtained while performing honest work outdoors the neck is specified to distinguish these people whose shirt protected chest and back are pale from the elitist wealthy who in their idiotic quest for darker skin pigmentation as badge of leisure time overdo it and get full body sunburns more like those who use their backs instead of their minds to make their living who are usually ignorant and intolerant of anything outside of their group or level of understanding tuba irwin honk therefore am computrac richardson tx irwin cmptrc lonestar org dod r75 that sounds like an awfully closed minded intolerant attitude not redneck but try walk in their shoes first stereotypes are usually of very limited value ve seen as many ignorant self righteous open minded new age lovers of the great planet earth as have ignorant red necks don see correlation don believe that the redneck culture if you can call it that is necessarily inferior or superior to any other gotta have beer making too much sense next thing you know ll be preaching tolerance and conservative jack waters ii dod don fear the thief in the night its the one that comes in the afternoon when still asleep that worry about path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse emory gatech usenet ins cwru edu cleveland freenet edu ai598 from ai598 cleveland freenet edu mike sturdevant newsgroups rec motorcycles subject carrying crutches was re living message id pqhkl g48 usenet ins cwru edu date apr gmt article usenet pqhkl g48 references apr2 eos arc nasa gov apr93 unbvm1 csd unb ca apr05 rchland ibm com reply to ai598 cleveland freenet edu mike sturdevant organization case western reserve university cleveland oh usa lines nntp posting host slc10 ins cwru edu in previous article pooder rchland vnet ibm com don fearn says when broke my right leg in two places not motorcycle accident car accident who woulda thunk it put my crutches on gretchen rear rack getting the metal rod pulled out on friday and going back on the crutches for six weeks think crutches on the handlebars sound more aesthetically pleasing how did you attach them when got my knee rebuilt got back on the street bike asap put the crutches on the rack and the passenger seat and they hung out back long way just make sure they re tied down tight in front and no problemo go fast take chances mike path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell uw beaver cs ubc ca bcsystems bclarke from bclarke galaxy gov bc ca newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re kawi zephyr was re vision vs gpz message id apr5 galaxy gov bc ca date apr references apr3 organpipe uug arizona edu apr4 pro haven cts com organization bc systems corporation lines in article apr4 pro haven cts com shadow pro haven cts com writes in apr3 organpipe uug arizona edu asphaug lpl arizona edu erik asphaug x2773 writes by the way the short lived zephyr is essentially gpz why was the zephyr discontinued heard something about problem with the name but never did hear anything certain don think the sold very well most north americans who ride standard rather than sport bike usually want something bigger people walk into the dealership look at the and the and say might as well spring the extra bucks for the bigger engine bruce clarke environment mail bclarke galaxy gov bc ca path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu zaphod mps ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu usenet ins cwru edu cleveland freenet edu ai598 from ai598 cleveland freenet edu mike sturdevant newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re ed must be daemon child message id pqhvu go8 usenet ins cwru edu date apr gmt article usenet pqhvu go8 references pfinv l5 sixgun east sun com apr2 adobe com apr2 linus mitre org apr5 rtsg mot com reply to ai598 cleveland freenet edu mike sturdevant organization case western reserve university cleveland oh usa lines nntp posting host slc10 ins cwru edu in previous article svoboda rtsg mot com david svoboda says in article apr2 linus mitre org cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes wait minute here ed is noemi and satan wow and he seemed like such nice boy at rcr too and noemi makes me think of cuddle not kotl you talking bout the same noemi know she makes me think of big bore hand guns and extreme weirdness this babe rode csr300 across the desert and borrowed xl100 on the death ride don fuck with her man your making big mistake go fast take chances mike path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse decwrl adobe cjackson from cjackson adobe com curtis jackson newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re identify this bike for me message id apr6 adobe com date apr gmt article adobe apr6 references apr5 ucsu colorado edu sender usenet adobe com usenet news distribution usa organization adobe systems incorporated mountain view lines in article apr5 ucsu colorado edu coburnn spot colorado edu nicholas coburn writes first thought it was an rc31 hawk modified by two brothers racing but did not think that they made this huge tank for it additionally as someone who was told quite firmly by honda sales service weenies that there is no larger tank available for the hawk have hawk with the puny gal tank be very interested to know if there is any decent aftermarket solution love to have at least gal tank curtis jackson cjackson mv us adobe com hawk gt maxim dod kotb black lab mix studley doright collie golden george there is no justification for taking away individuals freedom in the guise of public safety thomas jefferson path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net uunet pipex bnr co uk marble uknet ac uk uknet gdt aber news from azw aber ac uk andy woodward newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re cultural enquiries message id apr5 aber ac uk date apr gmt references mar10 drycas club cc cmu edu c3pkw6 j3p javelin sim es com mar17 aber ac uk stafford stafford winona msus edu sender news aber ac uk usenet news service organization university college of wales aberystwyth lines nntp posting host in article stafford stafford winona msus edu stafford vax2 winona msus edu john stafford writes in article mar17 aber ac uk azw aber ac uk andy woodward wrote two questions that fascinate me you are easily fascinated why are rednecks called rednecks why are you called welch ok it because they are often south or southeastern farmers who necks are permanently damaged from sunburn the sun you know what that is it never sets on the british empire and never shines in wales this is despicable lie it was sunny on rd july from am to am made note of it diaries are never wrong why do they ride harleys they don they drive in pick up trucks and shoot bikers please enlighten me when visited last the only answers got were incoherent splutterings you deserve more john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply do you by any chance ride harley just feeling how is your neck calamine lotion is good told am getting bored with winding up americans its like bombing fish in barrel haaaaaaaaaaave niiiiiiiiiiiiiiice daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay andy path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech howland reston ans net wupost uunet pipex bnr co uk marble uknet ac uk uknet gdt aber news from azw aber ac uk andy woodward newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re countersteering faq please post message id apr5 aber ac uk date apr gmt references c4zkcl fgc ux1 cso uiuc edu sender news aber ac uk usenet news service organization university college of wales aberystwyth lines nntp posting host in article c4zkcl fgc ux1 cso uiuc edu eric ux1 cso uiuc edu cbr900rr writes would someone please post the countersteering faq am having this awful time debating with someone on why push the right handle of my motorcycle foward when am turning left and can explain well at least why this happens please help post the faq need to convert him eric hmm if did this would be able to take the outriggers off xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec motorcycles rec motorcycles harley path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net wupost uunet pipex marble uknet ac uk uknet gdt aber news from azw aber ac uk andy woodward newsgroups rec motorcycles rec motorcycles harley subject re dr demento message id apr5 aber ac uk date apr gmt references c4qf7x zy vcd hp com speedy engr latech edu mar31 skcla monsanto com mar31 cs brown edu sender news aber ac uk usenet news service organization university college of wales aberystwyth lines nntp posting host in article mar31 cs brown edu jdk cs brown edu jennet kirschenbaum writes haven heard dr demento in years does anyone know if it plays on any stations around prov ri such as wbcn love to pay for shipping and recording of the show too the best boring old farts prefer the breeze fm salt lake city wonderfully catatonic wanted to take the whole station back with me in my flight bag especially the girlie with the sexy voice who did the morning show path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net uunet pipex marble uknet ac uk uknet gdt aber news from azw aber ac uk andy woodward newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re pink tools was re what is it with girlfriends and motorcycles message id apr5 aber ac uk date apr gmt references c4rwcw jr6 cs cmu edu sender news aber ac uk usenet news service organization university college of wales aberystwyth lines nntp posting host only just prevented myself from diving in on this one path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net wupost uunet pipex marble uknet ac uk uknet gdt aber news from azw aber ac uk andy woodward newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re cultural enquiries message id apr5 aber ac uk date apr gmt references c3pkw6 j3p javelin sim es com mar17 aber ac uk c4rgqj l1 mailer cc fsu edu pcl6i e4i bigboote wpi edu sender news aber ac uk usenet news service organization university college of wales aberystwyth lines nntp posting host in article pcl6i e4i bigboote wpi edu ravi vanilla wpi edu ravi narayan writes in previous article groh nu cs fsu edu said azw aber ac uk andy woodward writes why do they ride harleys cause we can you sure are lucky am told that there are very few people out there who can actually get their harley to ride the name tod johnson jumps to the indiscreet mind laz whats it you used to ride sig piece of mail with fool at one ravi narayan cs wpi end and flames at the other suzukigs500e phaedra hi ravi if you need harley we have lots to spare here all the yuppies bought the best couple of years ago to pose at the wine bar they rode mile and walked the rest called taxi home and went back to the porsche so there are loads going cheap with about miles on the clock takes while to coast to halt cheers andy you get better class of people on gs500 anyway path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net uunet pipex marble uknet ac uk uknet gdt aber news from azw aber ac uk andy woodward newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re drinking and riding message id apr5 aber ac uk date apr gmt references c4wkbp b9w eskimo com apr3 galaxy gov bc ca sender news aber ac uk usenet news service organization university college of wales aberystwyth lines nntp posting host in article apr3 galaxy gov bc ca bclarke galaxy gov bc ca writes in article c4wkbp b9w eskimo com maven eskimo com norman hamer writes drinking riding what is general rule of thumb for sobriety and cycling couple hours after you feel sober what or should just work with if drink tonight don ride until tomorrow even half beer will increase your confidence while slugging your reactions and judgement not much maybe but its hard enough to stay alive out there for any length of time without stacking the odds ll not ride after any path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech howland reston ans net wupost uunet pipex marble uknet ac uk uknet gdt aber news from azw aber ac uk andy woodward newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re living message id apr5 aber ac uk date apr gmt references apr2 eos arc nasa gov apr93 unbvm1 csd unb ca sender news aber ac uk usenet news service organization university college of wales aberystwyth lines nntp posting host in article apr93 unbvm1 csd unb ca c70a unb ca c70a000 writes in article apr2 eos arc nasa gov phil eos arc nasa gov phil stone writes thanks for the compliments allan but think you sidestepped my point there didn say didn take any chances sheesh getting out of bed in the morning is risky sprained my ankle damn right was late for climbing meet one morning so got out of bed without bothering that my right foot was still asleep it reminded me by folding underneath with crunching of metatarsals lucky the brake on the right but got funny looks riding thru london with one leg held aloft climbing wasnt problem the best splint in the world is tight climbing shoe path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net wupost uunet pipex marble uknet ac uk uknet gdt aber news from azw aber ac uk andy woodward newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re protective gear message id apr5 aber ac uk date apr gmt references c4wkfs bc1 eskimo com apr3 galaxy gov bc ca sender news aber ac uk usenet news service organization university college of wales aberystwyth lines nntp posting host in article apr3 galaxy gov bc ca bclarke galaxy gov bc ca writes in article c4wkfs bc1 eskimo com maven eskimo com norman hamer writes what protective gear is the most important ve got good helmet shoei rf200 and good thick jacket leather gold and pair of really cheap leather gloves what should my next purchase be better gloves boots leather pants what if you can remember to tuck properly the bits that are going to take most punishment with the gear you have will probably be your feet then hips and knees get boots then trousers the gloves come last as long as you ve the self control to pull your arms in when you tuck if not get good gloves first hands are very easily wrecked if you put one down to steady your fall at mph the other bits heal easier once you are fully covered you no longer tuck just lie back and enjoy the ride best of all take mean of all the contradictory answers you get newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu agate boulder news from laszlo eclipse cs colorado edu laszlo nemeth subject new dod listing membership is at message id apr5 colorado edu sender news colorado edu the daily planet nntp posting host eclipse cs colorado edu organization university of colorado boulder pizza disposal group date mon apr gmt lines there is new dod listing to get copy use one of these commands finger motohead cs colorado edu or mail motohead cs colorado edu if you send mail make sure your from line is correct ie man vacation will not try at all to fix mail problems unless they are mine and may just publicly tell the world what bad mailer you have do scan the mail to find bounces but will not waste my time answering your questions or requests for those of you that want to update your entry or get contact the kotl only the kotl can make changes so stop bothering me with inane mail will not tell what dod is ask rec motorcycles do not give out the laszlo nemeth laszlo cs colorado edu hey my tool works yeah you can quote me on that from elef sun com flashbacks free drugs dod uid path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl sun barr male ebay sun com grapevine ebay sun com news2me ebay sun com seven up east sun com laser egreen from egreen east sun com ed green pixel cruncher newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re round two date apr gmt organization sun microsystems rtp nc lines distribution world message id pq1ao seven up east sun com references apr3 serval net wsu edu reply to egreen east sun com nntp posting host laser east sun com in article serval net wsu edu bill wsuaix csc wsu edu william johns s23015 writes if good sam got bricks delivered first class postage to their door at their expense bet they would change their policies about mailing lists or about who can use their facilities quickly and if the lord god almighty parted the sky and make personal appearance at their board of directors meeting they would also change their policies the odds are about equal am curious as to how many bricks will have to send before this situatiion is cleared up to my satisfaction suspect about we shall see you ll be extremely lucky if you ever get one through ed green former ninjaite was drinking last night with biker ed green east sun com and showed him picture of you said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least could do path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse network ucsd edu swrinde elroy jpl nasa gov ames noc2 arc nasa gov howland from howland noc2 arc nasa gov curt howland newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re another question about synthetic engi message id apr6 news arc nasa gov date apr gmt article news apr6 references c4rm5v hbh ncoast org apr1 spectrum xerox com apr5 porthos cc bellcore com sender usenet news arc nasa gov distribution usa organization nasa science internet project office lines in article apr5 porthos cc bellcore com fist iscp bellcore com richard pierson writes two years ago he went to work for conrail as mechanic on the emd and ge power units train engines they never ever change the oil just the filters remember seeing an artical on large engine oil requirements and one of the ways of prolonging the life of the oil was to run through heated un presurized chamber to allow water and volitiles to boil off this made such long term usage of oil practical isn the discovery channel great curt howland ace dod eff howland nsipo nasa gov v45 sabre meddle not in the afairs of wizards for it makes them soggy and hard to re light newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net agate boulder ucsu spot colorado edu coburnn from coburnn spot colorado edu nicholas coburn subject identify this bike for me message id apr5 ucsu colorado edu sender news ucsu colorado edu usenet news system nntp posting host spot colorado edu organization university of colorado boulder distribution usa date mon apr gmt lines ok saw bike today and want to know what it is lets begin by saying that its whole rear end was definately hawk additionally it had cbr900rr style tank full fairing and only tach now at first thought it was an rc31 hawk modified by two brothers racing but did not think that they made this huge tank for it additionally the gauges were certainly not from hawk they looked much more like rr gauges overall the bike looked like rr except for the rear single sided swingarm and wheel there were straight from the hawk so what did see ps for any of you boulder doders saw it parked at the engineering center today it is white with light green stripes nick coburn dod ama cbr1000 cbr600 coburnn spot colorado edu newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen sol ctr columbia edu usc cs utexas edu uunet ftpbox mothost white rtsg mot com svoboda from svoboda rtsg mot com david svoboda subject re ed must be daemon child message id apr5 rtsg mot com sender news rtsg mot com nntp posting host corolla18 organization motorola inc cellular infrastructure group references pfinv l5 sixgun east sun com apr2 adobe com apr2 linus mitre org date mon apr gmt lines in article apr2 linus mitre org cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes wait minute here ed is noemi and satan wow and he seemed like such nice boy at rcr too and noemi makes me think of cuddle not kotl dave svoboda svoboda void rtsg mot com we re bad the bone concours mmmmmmmmmm bad the bone rz ring ding woops universally feared ama dod cog chicago denizen warcry xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec motorcycles rec motorcycles racing path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen zaphod mps ohio state edu wupost udel gatech usenet ins cwru edu agate homer cs berkeley edu downey from downey homer cs berkeley edu allen downey newsgroups ba motorcycles rec motorcycles rec motorcycles racing subject re speeding ticket from chp date apr gmt organization university of california berkeley lines distribution world message id pq4t7 k5i agate berkeley edu references na1em mcimail com nntp posting host homer cs berkeley edu paraphrase of initial post can fight speeding ticket in court my reply fight your ticket california edition by david brown st ed berkeley ca nolo press the second edition is out but not in ucb library good luck let us know how it goes abd path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen zaphod mps ohio state edu usc elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl autodesk davec from davec autodesk com dave cooper newsgroups rec motorcycles subject for sale message id autodesk com date apr gmt organization autodesk inc sausalito ca usa lines brand new top end chambers clean black paul please do not contact this email address contact the seller cheers dave newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen zaphod mps ohio state edu usc elroy jpl nasa gov ames noc2 arc nasa gov howland from howland noc2 arc nasa gov curt howland subject re what is it with cats and dogs message id apr5 news arc nasa gov sender usenet news arc nasa gov organization nasa science internet project office references gate gpd2b1w165w ryang1 pgh pa us date mon apr gmt lines in article gate gpd2b1w165w ryang1 pgh pa us ryang ryang1 pgh pa us robert yang writes hi sorry just feeling silly rob no need to appologise as matter of fact this reminds me to bring up something have found consistant with dogs most of the time they do not like having me and my bike anywhere near them and will chase as if to bite and kill an instructor once said it was because the sound from bike was painfull to their ears as silly as this seams no other options have arrizen net wisdom curt howland ace dod eff howland nsipo nasa gov v45 sabre meddle not in the afairs of wizards for it makes them soggy and hard to re light newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen zaphod mps ohio state edu usc elroy jpl nasa gov ames noc2 arc nasa gov howland from howland noc2 arc nasa gov curt howland subject re auction diana bra message id apr5 news arc nasa gov sender usenet news arc nasa gov organization nasa science internet project office references apr01 acs ucalgary ca apr2 informix com apr2 adobe com date mon apr gmt lines in article apr2 adobe com cjackson adobe com curtis jackson writes next thing you know ll see bikes with geeky stickers parked outside the local white wine quiche and fern bar hey like quiche even if did have to look at your note to spell it assumed correctly really you sniff tough guys are all the same mommy curtis is making fun of ferns again newsgroups rec motorcycles ba motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen zaphod mps ohio state edu usc elroy jpl nasa gov sun barr ames noc2 arc nasa gov howland from howland noc2 arc nasa gov curt howland subject re drinking and riding message id apr5 news arc nasa gov sender usenet news arc nasa gov organization nasa science internet project office references c4wkbp b9w eskimo com date mon apr gmt lines in article c4wkbp b9w eskimo com maven eskimo com norman hamer writes what is general rule of thumb for sobriety and cycling couple hours after you feel sober what or should just work with if drink tonight don ride until tomorrow ll put in vote for the latter bike takes lot of involvement and for one do not want any accident to be my fault remember one artical where the reviewer tried the radio on the bike not having had one on any of his he stated that the bike tended to go faster when the music was good agree having felt like this my self and this was not physical imparement like drinking just the emotional lift from music first rule of ecology there is never only one side effect ride well curt howland ace dod eff howland nsipo nasa gov v45 sabre meddle not in the afairs of wizards for it makes them soggy and hard to re light newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen zaphod mps ohio state edu usc elroy jpl nasa gov ames noc2 arc nasa gov howland from howland noc2 arc nasa gov curt howland subject re miracle in california message id apr5 news arc nasa gov sender usenet news arc nasa gov organization nasa science internet project office references cv3dtx01 juts ccc amdahl com speedy engr latech edu date mon apr gmt lines waving at fellow bikers stuff deleted when first started riding street bikes was told it was common to recieve give wave to fellow biker what astounded me on moving to the left coast from the right coast was to actually get waves from harley riders no really remember the first time as truely memorable event it might have something to do with the no refuse to bring that up again thanks evo for being harley rider that waves first curt howland ace dod eff howland nsipo nasa gov v45 sabre meddle not in the afairs of wizards for it makes them soggy and hard to re light newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen zaphod mps ohio state edu usc elroy jpl nasa gov ames noc2 arc nasa gov howland from howland noc2 arc nasa gov curt howland subject re countersteering faq please post message id apr5 news arc nasa gov sender usenet news arc nasa gov organization nasa science internet project office references c4zkcl fgc ux1 cso uiuc edu date mon apr gmt lines in article c4zkcl fgc ux1 cso uiuc edu eric ux1 cso uiuc edu cbr900rr writes would someone please post the countersteering faq eric like there faq for this curt howland ace dod eff howland nsipo nasa gov v45 sabre meddle not in the afairs of wizards for it makes them soggy and hard to re light path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu husc news harvard edu hsdndev dartvax saturn caps maine edu maine maine edu ree700a newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re ed must be daemon child message id ree700a maine maine edu from ree700a maine maine edu date apr gmt references mar30 rd hydro on ca pfinv l5 sixgun east sun com apr2 adobe com apr2 linus mitre org organization university of maine system lines ed heading out on the highway did he finally buy bike or is he passanger jeff andle dod kz900 ree700a maine maine edu intermittentnet access arranged through bowdoin college please reply via mail since followup might expire before see the net again path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu husc news harvard edu hsdndev dartvax saturn caps maine edu maine maine edu ree700a newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re kawi zephyr was re vision vs gpz message id ree700a maine maine edu from ree700a maine maine edu date apr gmt references apr3 organpipe uug arizona edu apr4 pro haven cts com apr5 galaxy gov bc ca organization university of maine system lines don know about the dinky little zephyr but the now the zr1100 looks alot like my z1 kz900 the one drooled over at tri sports in topsham me was looker yes mercury axed the zephyr name guess lot of aging republicans wanted zephyr and confused the mercury with the kawasaki oh well they re better off with the kawasaki anyways maybe it ll shake the stick out of their asses and make libertarians out of them as to the gpz zephyr the only gpz ve seen had the ball buster gas tank profile not the smooth saddle to gas tank transition motorcyclist claims the zephyr zr is the modernized z1 kz from the seventies jeff andle dod kz900 ree700a maine maine edu intermittentnet access arranged through bowdoin college please reply via mail since followup might expire before see the net again from gharriso hpcc01 corp hp com graeme harrison date mon apr gmt subject re split was re insect impacts message id hpcc01 corp hp com organization the hp corporate notes server path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com hpscit sc hp com hplextra hpcc05 hpcc01 gharriso newsgroups rec motorcycles references apr2 linus mitre org lines hpcc01 rec motorcycles cookson mbunix mitre org cookson pm apr all right people this inane bug wibbling is just getting to much propose we split off new group rec motorcycles nutrition to deal with the what to do with squashed bugs thread dean cookson dcookson mitre org dod ama the mitre corp burlington rd bedford ma kotnml kotb if was worried about who saw me never get vfr750f nekkid at all ed green dod bianchi limited what haven you heard about cross posting leave it intact and simply ignore the basenotes and or responses which have zero interest for being of your stature and discriminating taste yesterday while on lonoak rd wasp hit my faceshield with just enough force to glue it between my eyes but not enough to kill it as the legs were frantically wiggling away and found that rather shall we say distracting flicked it off and wiped off the residue at the next gas stop in greenfield btw lonoak rd leads from into king city although we took metz from kc into greenfield graeme harrison hewlett packard co communications components division trimble rd san jose ca gharriso hpcc01 corp hp com dod xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos tech rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu husc news harvard edu hsdndev yale gumby wupost emory sol ctr columbia edu ira uka de yale edu newsserver jvnc net nj nec com news newsgroups rec autos tech rec motorcycles subject re tools tools tools message id apr5 research nj nec com from behanna phoenix syl nj nec com chris behanna date apr gmt sender news research nj nec com references apr2 kronos arc nasa gov apr5 research nj nec com c51105 cs cmu edu organization nec systems laboratory inc lines in article c51105 cs cmu edu jfriedl cs cmu edu writes behanna phoenix syl nj nec com chris behanna writes while we re on the subject has anyone else noticed that the deep well in craftsman sae deep well set is too small to fit bolt or nut when took the socket in for an exchange every one of the deep well sockets on the rack had the exact same problem not to imply that you didn but since you didn mention it did you measure the size of your test nut with callipers were all three cross lengths no more than ve seen bolt heads and even few nuts which got slightly thicker further down toward the basa sort of trapizodial cross section that did not do however the sample bolt took to the store fit rather well in the following open end wrench box end wrench point normal socket take that as meaning it bolt head but as several people have pointed out and as noting in the tool faq writing up in case anyone will want it lifetime guarantee doesn necessiarly mean better tools yup at socket want the thing to fit later chris behanna dod fxwg wide glide jubilee red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb360t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx pending delivery agree with any of this anyway was raised by pack of wild corn dogs path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu husc news harvard edu hsdndev wupost uunet vtserf cc vt edu joesbar cc vt edu ranck newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re oops oh no message id pq6se vtserf cc vt edu from ranck joesbar cc vt edu wm ranck date apr gmt references apr5 ncsu edu organization virginia tech blacksburg virginia nntp posting host joesbar cc vt edu newsreader tin version pl9 lines jack rogers waters jrwaters eos ncsu edu wrote in article ppejb h0 vtserf cc vt edu ranck joesbar cc vt edu wm ranck writes well at least damaged my own bike if had done it to someone else property really feel like jerk as it is just feel stupid don mean to be cynic but you may want to reconsider having the body work done right away the same type of thing may happen again wait till you get used to the bike etc well waited whole week to take the pastic bits off and take them to the body shop is that long enough bill ranck ranck joesbar cc vt edu newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen zaphod mps ohio state edu swrinde gatech taco jrwaters from jrwaters eos ncsu edu jack rogers waters subject re the quest for horndom message id apr5 ncsu edu sender news ncsu edu usenet news system organization north carolina state university project eos references apr4 ncsu edu apr5 research nj nec com date mon apr gmt lines in article apr5 research nj nec com behanna phoenix syl nj nec com chris behanna writes in article apr4 ncsu edu jrwaters eos ncsu edu jack rogers waters writes no laughing please have few questions first of all do need relay are there different kinds and if so what kind should get both horns are volt did some back of the eyelids calculations last night and figure these puppies suck up about amps to work at maximum efficiency the cager might need shovel to clean out his seat assumptions dba at one meter neglecting solid angle considerations and end effects and other acoustic niceties from the shape of the horn itself this is power output of watts watts volts is approx amps yes get relay yes tell me how you did it want to do it on the zx later ll post summary after get enough information ll include tips like how to know when the monkey is pulling your leg shouldn monkey have to be bonded and insured before they work on bikes jack waters ii dod don fear the thief in the night its the one that comes in the afternoon when still asleep that worry about xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos tech rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen zaphod mps ohio state edu malgudi oar net news ysu edu psuvm lrr105 organization penn state university date mon apr edt from lrr105 psuvm psu edu message id lrr105 psuvm psu edu newsgroups rec autos tech rec motorcycles subject re tools tools tools references c4t7r4 l0x usenet ucs indiana edu apr1 osf org apr2 kronos arc nasa gov apr5 research nj nec com lines what is the flank drive everyones talking about newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester news bbn com noc near net news centerline com uunet europa eng gtefsd com emory swrinde zaphod mps ohio state edu wupost cs utexas edu csc ti com tilde csc ti com m2 dseg ti com ernest cmptrc irwin from irwin cmptrc lonestar org irwin arnstein subject re cultural enquiries message id c50ugg as cmptrc lonestar org date mon apr gmt references mar17 aber ac uk phuse u1 sixgun east sun com organization computrac inc richardson tx lines in article phuse u1 sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes in article aber ac uk azw aber ac uk andy woodward writes two questions that fascinate me check you local blue light special for sale on lives why are rednecks called rednecks the origin of the slang is probably reference to sunburned neck often obtained while performing honest work outdoors the neck is specified to distinguish these people whose shirt protected chest and back are pale from the elitist wealthy who in their idiotic quest for darker skin pigmentation as badge of leisure time overdo it and get full body sunburns more like those who use their backs instead of their minds to make their living who are usually ignorant and intolerant of anything outside of their group or level of understanding tuba irwin honk therefore am computrac richardson tx irwin cmptrc lonestar org dod r75 path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester news bbn com noc near net news centerline com uunet decwrl sun barr news2me ebay sun com seven up east sun com laser egreen from egreen east sun com ed green pixel cruncher newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re hats update patches too date apr gmt organization sun microsystems rtp nc lines distribution world message id pq8ab seven up east sun com references xhfg2b5w165w fringe rain com reply to egreen east sun com nntp posting host laser east sun com in article xhfg2b5w165w fringe rain com dean fringe rain com dean woodward writes ve got orders for about hats the expensive part not surprisingly is going to be having the patches made with setup fee of or so dean there an old engineering saying concerning inventions and wheels contact he done several runs of patches and there is some patch making company out there with the artwork already set up and paid for ed green former ninjaite was drinking last night with biker ed green east sun com and showed him picture of you said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least could do path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu linac att att out cbnewsj car377 from car377 cbnewsj cb att com charles rogers newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re chain lube was re rm consensus on chain cleaning summary application details message id apr5 cbnewsj cb att com date apr gmt article cbnewsj apr5 references c4cr0a knk murdoch acc virginia edu apr3 elektro cmhnet org organization at lines in article apr3 elektro cmhnet org charlie elektro cmhnet org charlie smith writes in article mar24 linus mitre org cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes anyone try the spray on chain wax that was reviewed in one of the moto rags last month yeah sprayed it all over my rear drive shaft housing and it didn seem to make it any quieter at all didn you read the instructions first you re supposed to spray it in your ears so you won be distracted by the chain noise of the other bikes around you that why it called chain wax chuck rogers car377 torreys att com car377 cbnewsj att com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu husc news harvard edu hsdndev yale gumby wupost udel gatech nntp msstate edu ra msstate edu vech newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re bmw nostalgia question from neophyte message id apr5 ra msstate edu from vech ra msstate edu craig vechorik date apr gmt sender news ra msstate edu references gold gvg tek com mar26 hemlock cray com organization mississippi state university nntp posting host ra msstate edu lines to go one step further you could write roland slabon pres of the vintage bmw motorcycle owners ltd at box exeter new hampshire and he ll send you copy of the bimonthly rag with info as to where to send your bucks if ya want to join as far as the price of beemers it varies wildly from low of around for an unrestored bike that still runs like an r50 or r60 to or so for restored r69s don listen to that bull about the old bmw not being good enough to ride in todays world hell riding my r26 single from mississippi to the bmw moa national rally in oshkosh wisconsin on the nd of july this year sincerely craig vechorik bmw moa ambassador bmw vintage bulletin tech editor dod real bmw have round tail lights and roller cranks path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen uwm edu wupost emory gatech concert duke news duke edu acpub duke edu infante from infante acpub duke edu andrew infante newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re countersteering faq please post message id news duke edu date apr gmt references c4zkcl fgc ux1 cso uiuc edu apr93 unbvm1 csd unb ca sender news news duke edu organization duke university durham lines nntp posting host north1 acpub duke edu in article apr93 unbvm1 csd unb ca c70a unb ca c70a000 writes in article c4zkcl fgc ux1 cso uiuc edu eric ux1 cso uiuc edu cbr900rr writes would someone please post the countersteering faq am having this awful time debating with someone on why push the right handle of my motorcycle foward when am turning left and can explain well at least why this happens please help post the faq need to convert him ummm if you push on the right handle of your bike while at speed and your bike turns left methinks your bike has problem when do it really methinks somethings wrong with your bike perhaps you meant pull pushing the right side of my handlebars will send me left it should really on my bike turn right no wonder you need that faq if had it send it sure others will take up the slack andy infante sometimes wish that people would put little more emphasis bmw r60 upon the observance of the law than they do upon it dod enforcement calvin coolidge my opinions dammit have nothing to do with anyone else path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen zaphod mps ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu usenet ins cwru edu agate cogsci berkeley edu robinson from robinson cogsci berkeley edu michael robinson newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re cultural enquiries date apr gmt organization institute of cognitive studies berkeley lines message id pqcei mtp agate berkeley edu references mar17 aber ac uk stafford stafford winona msus edu apr5 aber ac uk nntp posting host cogsci berkeley edu in article apr5 aber ac uk azw aber ac uk andy woodward writes am getting bored with winding up americans its like bombing fish in barrel or little children at the market or is that the irish hard to keep all you not really english types straight michael robinson uucp ucbvax cogsci robinson internet robinson cogsci berkeley edu newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net noc near net uunet mdisea mothost white rtsg mot com svoboda from svoboda rtsg mot com david svoboda subject re another question about synthetic engi message id apr5 rtsg mot com sender news rtsg mot com nntp posting host corolla18 organization motorola inc cellular infrastructure group references apr1 news arc nasa gov apr2 spectrum xerox com date mon apr gmt lines in article apr2 spectrum xerox com cooley xerox com writes in article news arc nasa gov howland noc2 arc nasa gov curt howland writes castrol syntec does not contain teflon it gets its greater lubrication by bonding to the metal surfaces of the engine thus making the metal ride on the polymer rather than having metal to metal contact do not know if this also reduces the acid contact with the metal but it seems likely just becase something forms resin does not mean that it not teflon based the ptfe in slick is not teflon either but it still teflon based teflon is dupont owned tradename for ptfe slick does indeed use dupont teflon though some other brands of such stuff may use imported ptfe of another brand teflon being trade name should always by capitalized dupont disclaims any benefits of ptfe in the oil supply of internal combustion engines btw dave svoboda svoboda void rtsg mot com we re bad the bone concours mmmmmmmmmm bad the bone rz ring ding woops universally feared ama dod cog chicago denizen warcry path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse network ucsd edu usc cs utexas edu news from mcguire cs utexas edu tommy marcus mcguire newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re countersteering faq please post message id ls1v14innjml earth cs utexas edu date apr gmt article earth ls1v14innjml references c4zkcl fgc ux1 cso uiuc edu apr93 unbvm1 csd unb ca news duke edu organization cs dept university of texas at austin lines nntp posting host earth cs utexas edu in article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes in article apr93 unbvm1 csd unb ca c70a unb ca c70a000 writes in article c4zkcl fgc ux1 cso uiuc edu eric ux1 cso uiuc edu cbr900rr writes would someone please post the countersteering faq am having this awful ummm if you push on the right handle of your bike while at speed and your bike turns left methinks your bike has problem when do it really methinks somethings wrong with your bike perhaps you meant pull pushing the right side of my handlebars will send me left it should really on my bike turn right no wonder you need that faq if had it send it sure others will take up the slack andy infante sometimes wish that people would put little more emphasis oh lord this is where came in obcountersteer for some reason ve discovered that pulling on the wrong side of the handlebars rather than pushing on the other wrong side if you get my meaning provides feeling of greater control for example rather than pushing on the right side to lean right to turn right hi lonny pulling on the left side at least until get leaned over to the right feels more secure and less counter intuitive maybe need psychological help obcountersteer v2 anyone else find it ironic that in the weekend and night msf class they don mention countersteering until after the first day of riding tommy mcguire who going to hit his head on door frames the rest of the evening leaning into those tight turns mcguire cs utexas edu mcguire austin ibm com will append an appropriate disclaimer to outgoing public information identifying it as personal and as independent of ibm newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu agate headwall stanford edu nntp stanford edu gondwana stanford edu karish from karish gondwana stanford edu chuck karish subject re living message id apr5 leland stanford edu sender news leland stanford edu mr news organization mindcraft inc references mar27 odin corp sgi com mar27 eos arc nasa gov c4rz4j q9 odin corp sgi com date mon apr gmt lines in article c4rz4j q9 odin corp sgi com amc crash wpd sgi com allan mcnaughton writes in article mar27 eos arc nasa gov phil eos arc nasa gov phil stone writes alan nothing personal but object to the we all in that statement was on many of those rides that alan is describing pushing the envelope does not necessarily equal taking insane chances moreover if two riders are riding together at the same speed one might be riding well beyond his abilities and the other may have safety margin left oh come on phil you re an excellent rider but you still take plenty of chances don tell me that it just your skill that keeps you from getting wacked there lot of luck thrown in there too you re very good rider and very lucky one too hope your luck holds allan know the circumstances of several of your falls on the ride when you fell while was next behind you you made an error of judgement by riding too fast when you knew the road was damp and you reacted badly when you were surprised by an oncoming car that crash was due to factors that were subject to your control won deny that there combination of luck and skill involved for each of us but it seems that you re blaming bad luck for more of your own pain than is warranted chuck karish karish mindcraft com x117 karish pangea stanford edu newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen saimiri primate wisc edu eng ufl edu usenet ufl edu gatech howland reston ans net agate headwall stanford edu nntp stanford edu gondwana stanford edu karish from karish gondwana stanford edu chuck karish subject re recommended bike for tall beginner message id apr5 leland stanford edu sender news leland stanford edu mr news organization mindcraft inc references sdcc12 ucsd edu distribution usa date mon apr gmt lines in article sdcc12 ucsd edu jtozer sdcc3 ucsd edu john tozer writes am looking for advice on what bikes should check out am tall and find my legs hips uncomfortably bent on most of the bikes have ridden not many admittedly are there any bikes out there built for taller rider there plenty of legroom on the kawasaki klr650 bit short in the braking department for spirited street riding but enough for dirt and for less agressive street stuff chuck karish karish mindcraft com x117 karish pangea stanford edu newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen uwm edu cs utexas edu uunet mdisea mothost schbbs waccvm corp mot com rylv80 from rylv80 waccvm corp mot com william mohrman subject re drinking and riding organization motorola date apr mst message id apr5 schbbs mot com sender news schbbs mot com net news nntp posting host waccvm corp mot com lines what is general rule of thumb for sobriety and cycling couple hours after you feel sober what or should just work with if drink tonight don ride until tomorrow this thread brings back memorys of an expensive day in traffic court few years ago while was waiting my turn to state my case and plea of why was going in in my cage had the opportunity to listen to some of the creative excuses offered the judge by others after listening to number of well was passing very slow truck that suddenly speed up versions decided that the judge had heard just about every story in the book and then some he was less than impressed with any of them this young rather burley looking guy had his docket read by rather drill sargent looking ohio state highyway patrol trooper he was clocked riding motorcycle at speed of mph in mph zone it was also noted that the defendant motorcycle rider had alcohol on his breath but was not cited for this offence the judge looked over his half glasses purched on the end of his nose and said in his sternest voice well son those are some pretty fast speeds to be riding motorcycle what do you have to say for your self well sir meekly the defenant replied just was over to my buddys and we had couple of beers and was on my way home he offered nothing more or less just had couple of beers and was doing mph on his way home the judge moved by the simplicity of the response fined him the maximum in this case plus court costs of course and ordered him to attend remedial drivers training school isn america great bill mohrman cb900c motorola sps columbus oh disclaimers apply path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen nigel msen com sdd hp com elroy jpl nasa gov swrinde zaphod mps ohio state edu wupost uunet haven umd edu mimsy leavitt from leavitt cs umd edu mr bill newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re how big is too big was re st bike message id mimsy umd edu date apr gmt references apr1 aber ac uk mimsy umd edu sender news mimsy umd edu organization the cafe at the edge of the universe lines azw aber ac uk andy woodward writes azw weight and size over rough roads is definite no no if is starts to azw drift you aint going to catch it leavitt cs umd edu mr bill says mrb if you re riding hard enough for this to be of concern then yes mrb lighter bike is more beneficial ai598 cleveland freenet edu mike sturdevant writes ms if you re not riding hard enough for this to be concern are you ms having any fun sure ve never been much of racerboy as anybody who attended the minibike spectacular can attest get great deal of satisfaction in riding fast yet now so fast as to be overly concerned about not being able to maintain clean line and while still known to slide the occasional tire much prefer to stay just to the sticky side of that line ve found that don heal as well as used to in days of yore btw how the knee mrb anyway am more likely to catch than not necessarily mrb tires road surface and rider ability are much more important criteria ms actually big horsepower is just as likely to get you out of trouble ms when it starts to drift as your puny body mass pushing on stuff well ms placed push from or horsepower can do lot to straighten or change ms in beneficial way the trajectory of the bike rider system that quite true another plus for bike the original thread think damn circular threads ms go fast take chances ms ms mike mr bill bill leavitt cbx white lightning gs850g suzibago leavitt cs umd edu cj360 little honda lone star sick leave dod ama icoa nia impala convertible the incredible hulk others hmmm thought bore and stroke was the technique michael bain newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen zaphod mps ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu usenet ins cwru edu agate boulder eclipse cs colorado edu laszlo from laszlo eclipse cs colorado edu laszlo nemeth subject re protective gear message id apr6 colorado edu sender news colorado edu the daily planet nntp posting host eclipse cs colorado edu organization university of colorado boulder pizza disposal group references c4wkfs bc1 eskimo com date tue apr gmt lines in article c4wkfs bc1 eskimo com maven eskimo com norman hamer writes question for the day what protective gear is the most important ve got good helmet shoei rf200 and good thick jacket leather gold and pair of really cheap leather gloves what should my next purchase be better gloves boots leather pants what condom during wone of the times had to go over my accident was asked if was wearing protection my responces was yes was wearing condom laz newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen zaphod mps ohio state edu wupost uunet newsgate watson ibm com yktnews watson ibm com florida essbaum from essbaum rchland vnet ibm com alexander essbaum subject re countersteering faq please post sender news rchland ibm com message id apr06 rchland ibm com date tue apr gmt disclaimer this posting represents the poster views not necessarily those of ibm references c4zkcl fgc ux1 cso uiuc edu apr93 unbvm1 csd unb ca news duke edu nntp posting host florida rchland ibm com organization ibm rochester lines in article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes in article apr93 unbvm1 csd unb ca c70a unb ca c70a000 writes in article c4zkcl fgc ux1 cso uiuc edu eric ux1 cso uiuc edu cbr900rr writes would someone please post the countersteering faq am having this awful time debating with someone on why push the right handle of my motorcycle foward when am turning left and can explain well at least why this happens please help post the faq need to convert him ummm if you push on the right handle of your bike while at speed and your bike turns left methinks your bike has problem when do it pushing the right side of my handlebars will send me left sure others will take up the slack oh yes quite sure they will axel newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen uwm edu linac att att out cbnewsj car377 from car377 cbnewsj cb att com charles rogers subject re why won be getting my low rider this year organization at date mon apr gmt message id apr5 cbnewsj cb att com summary ergonomics of gas tanks references mar29 cbnewsj cb att com mar30 pb2esac uucp keywords congratz lines in article mar30 pb2esac uucp prahren pb2esac uucp peter ahrens writes in article mar29 cbnewsj cb att com car377 cbnewsj cb att com charles rogers writes had planned to get an hd this year but instead took delivery on brand new male offspring er last monday sounds like you should have been doing your planning last year given harley davidson product delivery lag and the human gestation cycle or perhaps any planning at all hiya pete still got that cbx nice to hear from you again and yes finally did figure out why this happens and have taken steps to ensure storkish repetition that would be low drag bars and way rad rearsets for the fj so that the ergonomic constraints would have contraceptive consequences ouch this brings to mind one of the recommendations in the hurt study because the rear of the gas tank is in close proximity to highly prized and easily damaged anatomy hurt et al recommended that manufacturers build the tank so as to reduce the er step function provided when the rider body slides off of the seat and onto the gas tank in the unfortunate event that the bike stops suddenly and the rider doesn think it really inspiring how the manufacturers have taken this advice to heart in their design of bikes like the cbr900rr and the gts1000a chuck rogers car377 torreys att com car377 cbnewsj att com xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec motorcycles rec motorcycles racing newsgroups ba motorcycles rec motorcycles rec motorcycles racing path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen sdd hp com zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet decwrl csus edu netcom com dmatejka from dmatejka netcom com daniel matejka subject re speeding ticket from chp message id dmatejkac51dmb lh6 netcom com organization netcom online communication services references na1em mcimail com date tue apr gmt lines in article pq4t7 k5i agate berkeley edu downey homer cs berkeley edu allen downey writes fight your ticket california edition by david brown st ed berkeley ca nolo press the second edition is out but not in ucb library good luck let us know how it goes daniel matejka writes the fourth edition is out too but it probably also not very high on ucb gotta have that list in article na1em mcimail com mcimail com peter nesbitt writes riding to work last week via hwy from suisun to was pulled over by chp black and white by the gas station by jameson canyon road the officer stated it looked like you were going kinda fast coming down highway you must have been going at least or just said okay and did not agree or disagree to anything he said can you beat this ticket personally think it your duty as citizen to make it as much trouble as possible for them so maybe they ll give up and leave us alone someday soon the cop was certainly within his legal rights to nail you by guessing your speed mr brown the author of fight your ticket mentions an oakland judge who convicted speeder on the officer testimony that the driver car sounded like it was being driven at an excessive speed you can pay off the state and your insurance company or you can take it to court and be creative personally ve never won that way or seen anyone win but the judge always listens politely and haven seen that many attempts you could try the argument that since bikes are shorter than the cars whose speed the nice officer is accustomed to guessing they therefore appear to be further away and so their speed appears to be greater than it actually is left out step or two but you get the idea if you can make it convincing theoretically you re supposed to win ve never tried proving the cop was mistaken did get to see some other poor biker try it he was mixing up various facts like the maximum acceleration of cop car and the distance at which the cop had been pacing him and end up demonstrating that he couldn possibly have been going as fast as the cop had suggested he brought diagrams and calculator he was prepared he lost keep in mind cops do this all the time and their word is better than yours maybe though they don guess how fast bikes are going all the time besides this guy didn speak english very well and ended up absolutely confounding the judge the cop and everyone else in the room who been recently criminalized by some twit with gun and quota ahem ok better now maybe he have won had his presentation been more polished maybe not he did get applause path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu cs utexas edu utnut skule ecf carter from carter ecf toronto edu carter edward newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re dod oficial tm newbie bike of choice message id c51nqm qq ecf toronto edu date apr gmt article ecf c51nqm qq references pplsc news ysu edu organization university of toronto engineering computing facility lines in article pplsc news ysu edu ak296 yfn ysu edu john daker writes propose that the official dod newbie bike of choice tm be the zx nothing like giving newbies land rocket to practice on it offers enough power so that novice rider can safely accelerate out of harms way in situations where more experienced rider would use complex avoidance manouvers yup accelerate right into the back of an wheel truck um how the easiest way to get newbies of the road regards ted university of toronto computer engineering powerusersgroupchairman fzr600 taking ride with my best friend dod newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen nigel msen com sdd hp com zaphod mps ohio state edu usc elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl adobe cjackson from cjackson adobe com curtis jackson subject re cultural enquiries message id apr6 adobe com sender usenet adobe com usenet news organization adobe systems incorporated mountain view references phuse u1 sixgun east sun com c50ugg as cmptrc lonestar org apr5 ncsu edu date tue apr gmt lines more like those who use their backs instead of their minds to make their living who are usually ignorant and intolerant of anything outside of their group or level of understanding there seems to be some confusion between rednecks and white trash the confusion is understandable as there is substantial overlap between the two sets let me see if can clarify rednecks primarily use their backs instead of their minds to make living usually somewhat ignorant by somebody standards anyway because they have never held education above basic reading writing math skills to be that important to their eventual vocation note did not say stupid just ignorant they might be stupid but then so are some high percentage of any group white trash white trash fit the stereotype referred to by the word nigger better than any black person ever met only with the added bonus that white trash are mean as hell my father genuinely lazy not just out of work or under qualified good for nothing dishonest white people who are mean as snakes the squeal like pig boys in deliverance may or may not have been rednecks but they were sure as hell white trash white trash are assuredly intolerant of anything outside of their group or level of understanding rednecks may or may not be curtis jackson cjackson mv us adobe com hawk gt maxim dod kotb black lab mix studley doright collie golden george there is no justification for taking away individuals freedom in the guise of public safety thomas jefferson newsgroups rec motorcycles from tony morgan demon co uk tony kidson path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester news crd ge com uunet pipex demon morgan demon co uk tony subject re protective gear distribution world references apr5 rd hydro on ca organization the modem palace reply to tony morgan demon co uk newsreader simple news ka9q dis lines date tue apr message id snz morgan demon co uk sender usenet demon co uk in article apr5 rd hydro on ca jlevine rd hydro on ca writes in article c4wkfs bc1 eskimo com maven eskimo com norman hamer writes question for the day what protective gear is the most important ve got good helmet shoei rf200 and good thick jacket leather gold and pair of really cheap leather gloves what should my next purchase be better gloves boots leather pants what would go for the gloves there not whole lot that you can do in life if you have no skin on your hands yup ruins your sex life tony tony kidson pgp key by request voice morgan towers the cat has had to move now mail in order morgan road as ve had to take the top tony morgan demon co uk bromley off of the machine tny cix compulink co uk england br1 qe honda st1100 dod compuserve com newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester news crd ge com uunet zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu linac att att out cbfsb cbnewsg cb att com jjd1 from jjd1 cbnewsg cb att com james dutton subject re twit bicyclists was re oh joy message id apr5 cbfsb cb att com sender news cbfsb cb att com organization at references apr01 acs ucalgary ca apr2 spectrum xerox com distribution na date mon apr gmt lines in article apr2 spectrum xerox com cooley xerox com writes yo assholes hope you are all just kidding because it exactly that kind of attidue that gets many motorcyclist killed look at the leather clad poseurs watch how they swirve and swear as pretend that they don exist while change lanes if you really find it necesary to wreck others enjoyment of the road to boost your ego then it is truely you who are the poseur aaron disgruntled volvo drivers what are they rebelling against steatopygias us doh that ain no hottentot sesquipedalian us zx ama dod there ain no more newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen sdd hp com cs utexas edu uunet wupost uwm edu linac att att out cbfsb cbnewsg cb att com jjd1 from jjd1 cbnewsg cb att com james dutton subject re question arai quantum message id apr5 cbfsb cb att com sender news cbfsb cb att com organization at references c4zqel e9b ms uky edu distribution na date mon apr gmt lines in article c4zqel e9b ms uky edu amir ms uky edu amir sadr writes they way want it to however have the following problem my chin hangs out from the bottom of the helmet am curious to know whether would still have this problem if were to switch to the extra large size in particular can anyone tell me for certain if the outer shell of the arai quantum in size large is any different larger rounder etc than the same helmet in size large or if the inner padding foam on the large is such that one head fits little deeper in the helmet and thus one chin would not stick out this is true for the very old arthur fulmer helmets that have namely my chin hangs out little from the bottom of the large helmet and not at all from the large but the large is not as snug as the large the dealer is willing to replace the helmet at no additional cost shipping but want to make sure that the large is in fact little bigger or linered such that my chin will not hang out and how much looser will my head fit in the large if anyone has recent experience with this helmet please let me hear mail from you asap thank you so much amir not sure about the helmet but for chin questions you might want to write to jay leno tonight show burbank calif good luck steatopygias us doh that ain no hottentot sesquipedalian us zx ama dod there ain no more path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester news crd ge com uunet haven umd edu darwin sura net aurora latech edu bhm116e spc engr latech edu speedy from speedy engr latech edu speedy mercer newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re living date mon apr gmt organization louisiana tech university lines message id speedy engr latech edu references apr2 eos arc nasa gov apr93 unbvm1 csd unb ca apr05 rchland ibm com nntp posting host bhm116e spc engr latech edu in article apr05 rchland ibm com pooder rchland vnet ibm com don fearn writes in article apr93 unbvm1 csd unb ca c70a000 c70a unb ca writes sprained my right ankle once and kept riding when broke my right leg in two places had knee surgery while was in the navy back in the doctors put me in cast from ass to ankle my only method of transportaion was dohc honda at the time found that by sliding back on the seat could use my heel did mention it was my left leg to operate the shift would hook the end of the lever with my heel and lift my entire leg for up shifts and just drop my leg on the lever for the down shifts forget nutral took way too much finesse for the leg the crutches were bungee corded to the right side of the bike with the top resting on the passenger peg and the right turnsignal sticking through the hole in the crutches every other day when rode the miles to physical therapy tourture sessions the doc would give me hell about riding bike much less riding in my condition didn stop me tho btw this is the same bike assembled in my second floor barracks room and rode down the stairs when it was completed am not paid to have an opinion dr speed suzuki gs850g dod xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec motorcycles rec motorcycles racing newsgroups ba motorcycles rec motorcycles rec motorcycles racing path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester news crd ge com uunet newsgate watson ibm com yktnews watson ibm com florida essbaum from essbaum rchland vnet ibm com alexander essbaum subject re speeding ticket from chp sender news rchland ibm com message id apr06 rchland ibm com date tue apr gmt disclaimer this posting represents the poster views not necessarily those of ibm references na1em mcimail com dmatejkac51dmb lh6 netcom com nntp posting host florida rchland ibm com organization ibm rochester lines in article dmatejkac51dmb lh6 netcom com dmatejka netcom com daniel matejka writes in article pq4t7 k5i agate berkeley edu downey homer cs berkeley edu allen downey writes fight your ticket california edition by david brown st ed berkeley ca nolo press the second edition is out but not in ucb library good luck let us know how it goes daniel matejka writes can you beat this ticket personally think it your duty as citizen to make it as much trouble as possible for them so maybe they ll give up and leave us alone someday soon the cop was certainly within his legal rights to nail you by guessing your speed mr brown the author of fight your ticket mentions an oakland judge who convicted speeder on the officer testimony that the driver car sounded like it was being driven at an excessive speed cough choke what if cop gave me ticket for sounding like was speeding probably show up in court without lawyer simply because sounding like speeding is ridiculous if was found guilty appeal and then show up with lawyer if cop doesn do one of vascar from car or plane radar lidar other electronic speed measuring device pace me and within mph or so of the limit go to court can accept cop seeing me going excessively fast like over the limit but he looked like he was going or so in zone is not beyond reasonable doubt granted may well lose the case but in measured by eye take it to court for sure axel path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu cs utexas edu uunet orca bambam bgardner from bgardner bambam es com blaine gardner newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re protective gear message id apr6 dsd es com date apr gmt article dsd apr6 references c4wkfs bc1 eskimo com sender usenet dsd es com organization evans sutherland computer corporation lines nntp posting host bambam in article c4wkfs bc1 eskimo com maven eskimo com norman hamer writes question for the day what protective gear is the most important ve got good helmet shoei rf200 and good thick jacket leather gold and pair of really cheap leather gloves what should my next purchase be better gloves boots leather pants what what your favorite body part blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd es com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu cs utexas edu uunet orca bambam bgardner from bgardner bambam es com blaine gardner newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re why won be getting my low rider this year keywords congratz message id apr6 dsd es com date apr gmt article dsd apr6 references mar29 cbnewsj cb att com mar30 pb2esac uucp apr5 cbnewsj cb att com sender usenet dsd es com organization evans sutherland computer corporation lines nntp posting host bambam in article apr5 cbnewsj cb att com car377 cbnewsj cb att com charles rogers writes in article mar30 pb2esac uucp prahren pb2esac uucp peter ahrens writes that would be low drag bars and way rad rearsets for the fj so that the ergonomic constraints would have contraceptive consequences ouch this brings to mind one of the recommendations in the hurt study because the rear of the gas tank is in close proximity to highly prized and easily damaged anatomy hurt et al recommended that manufacturers build the tank so as to reduce the er step function provided when the rider body slides off of the seat and onto the gas tank in the unfortunate event that the bike stops suddenly and the rider doesn think it really inspiring how the manufacturers have taken this advice to heart in their design of bikes like the cbr900rr and the gts1000a dunno on my old gs1000e the tank seat junction was nice and smooth but if you were to travel all the way forward you collect the top triple clamp in sensitive area hate to have to make the choice but think prefer the fj gas tank blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd es com xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec motorcycles rec motorcycles racing path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester news crd ge com rpi usc elroy jpl nasa gov sun barr olivea sgigate sgiblab unpc max from max queernet org max rochlin newsgroups ba motorcycles rec motorcycles rec motorcycles racing subject re speeding ticket from chp message id c51iks g8k queernet org date apr gmt references na1em mcimail com organization queernet lines interesting fight the ticket first off there chance the cop won show up secondly if he does show up you should point out that he lied purgered on the ticket why beleive that if yo re charged with going more than mph that the posted speed it more severe ticket you couldn have ossibly been going right max queernet org max rochlin uunet sgi unpc max protect me from what want path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu cs utexas edu uunet oracle unrepliable bounce from pnakada oracle com paul nakada newsgroups rec motorcycles ba motorcycles subject eating and riding was re drinking and riding message id pnakada apr5140811 pnakada oracle com date apr gmt article pnakada pnakada apr5140811 sender usenet oracle us oracle com oracle news poster organization oracle corporation redwood shores ca lines nntp posting host pnakada us oracle com disclaimer this message was written by an unauthenticated user at oracle corporation the opinions expressed are those of the user and not necessarily those of oracle what the feeling about eating and riding went out riding this weekend and got little carried away with some pecan pie the whole ride back felt sluggish was certainly much more alert on the ride in sure others have the same feeling but the strangest thing is that eating is usually the turnaround point of weekend rides from now on little snack will do much rather have get that full sluggish feeling closer to home paul paul nakada oracle corporation pnakada oracle com dod r100c k75s newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen sdd hp com saimiri primate wisc edu ames sun barr lll winken llnl gov myrddin seahunt imat com nelson from nelson seahunt imat com michael nelson subject re protective gear message id c51k13 jqq myrddin imat com sender usenet myrddin imat com da news nntp posting host seahunt imat com organization seahunt san francisco ca references c4wkfs bc1 eskimo com apr5 rd hydro on ca date tue apr gmt lines in article apr5 rd hydro on ca jlevine rd hydro on ca jody levine writes still looking for good gloves myself as the ones have now are too loose when you find some new ones suggest donating the ones you have now to the lautrec family in france grin michael michael nelson cbr900rr internet nelson seahunt imat com dod from gharriso hpcc01 corp hp com graeme harrison date mon apr gmt subject re goldwing performance message id hpcc01 corp hp com organization the hp corporate notes server path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer rpi uwm edu cs utexas edu sdd hp com hpscit sc hp com hplextra hpcc05 hpcc01 gharriso newsgroups rec motorcycles references tlt101 psuvm psu edu lines hpcc01 rec motorcycles stafford vax2 winona msus edu john stafford am apr in article pf2hs b4d transfer stratus com cdodson beast cac stratus com craig dodson wrote from the summary in the back of motorcyclist they run the in at about mph interestingly enough this winnebago of bikes is faster than any of the harleys listed it depreciates much faster too john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply the gl1200a hit the traps at according to cycle magazine yeah they depreciate faster than harleys for the first couple of years then they bottom out got my gl1200i miles on the odometer for just under in may of and would ask for now with almost miles onnit that about of what new gl1500i would cost think the gl1200i originally sold for brand new not sure if that the case then it depreciated over years or mere big fat hairy deal based on what know harleys tend to depreciate your monies far more than the initial depreciation of the bike itself when it comes to parts and service all this about harleys holding their value better doesn always wash away the knocks on them such as being much slower according to peter egan in the just released cycle world his flhs is real dog when he pillions his lb wife all that money for dog that doesn defecate much graeme harrison hewlett packard co communications components division trimble rd san jose ca gharriso hpcc01 corp hp com dod from marty misty ca boeing com marty capadona date mon apr gmt subject data logging message id misty ca boeing com organization boeing commercial airplane bcs support path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer rpi gatech howland reston ans net newsserver jvnc net darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet bcstec misty marty newsgroups rec motorcycles lines greetings can someone steer me towards sources of information on vehicle data logging systems in particular would like to build buy or little of both system that is small enough to fit on motorcycle and will take input from various sensors pressure lvdt acceleration rpm o2 sensor digitize and record it for later analysis please email me any info if get anything interesting ll compile it and get it on the net thanks marty capadona marty carter ca boeing com seattle wa gpz750 gs1100 hawk gt gs500 ama msf wmrra omrra forget what said newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester news crd ge com uunet murphy jpradley magpie manes from manes magpie linknet com steve manes subject re drinking and riding organization manes and associates nyc date mon apr gmt message id c514ut a5i magpie linknet com newsreader tin version pl9 references c4wkbp b9w eskimo com lines norman hamer maven eskimo com wrote what is general rule of thumb for sobriety and cycling couple hours after you feel sober what or should just work with if drink tonight don ride until tomorrow it depends on how badly you want to live the faa says eight hours bottle to throttle for pilots but recommends twenty four hours the fars specify blood alcohol level of as legally drunk think which is more than twice as strict as dwi minimums btw alcohol metabolizes in your blood at fixed rate one beer hour will keep your blood alcohol level barely street legal coffee hyperventilation and other bar tricks won speed it up nor will they fool mr ranger stephen manes manes magpie linknet com manes and associates new york ny usa path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net agate dog ee lbl gov newshub nosc mil vela acs oakland edu psgi todd from todd psgi uucp todd doolittle newsgroups rec motorcycles subject fork seals distribution world message id todd m2 psgi uucp date apr est organization not an organization lines about to undertake changing the fork seals on my ex500 my clymer manual says need the following tools from kawasaki handle looking thing in illustration some type of adapter for the end of the handle no illustration of this tool and the manual just refers to it as the kawasaki tool oil seal and bearing remover how necessary are these tools considering the dealers around here didn have the clymer manual fork seals and turn signal assembly in stock really doubt they have these tools in stock and really like to get this done this week any help would be appreciated as always vela acs oakland edu psgi todd rm125 the only bike sold without todd doolittle red line troy mi ex500 dod path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu andrew cmu edu jc7j from jae chang jc7j andrew cmu edu newsgroups rec motorcycles subject bmw r65 info wanted date tue apr organization junior electrical and computer engineering carnegie mellon pittsburgh pa lines message id yfkgzi600wb4el3ab1 andrew cmu edu nntp posting host po2 andrew cmu edu hi someone is selling his bmw r65 think it an miles for he says it in great condition and perfect shape it got the hard saddle bags too is this good deal seems like an awesome deal is it assuming that everything he says is true thanks jae jae cmu edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net agate dog ee lbl gov newshub nosc mil vela acs oakland edu psgi todd from todd psgi uucp todd doolittle newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re motorcycle courier summer job distribution world message id todd m8 psgi uucp references uupcb compdyn questor org poj23inn9k west west sun com date apr est organization not an organization lines in article poj23inn9k west west sun com gaijin ale japan sun com john little nihon sun repair depot writes in article uupcb compdyn questor org ryan cousineau compdyn questor org ryan cousineau writes think ve found the ultimate summer job it dangerous involves motorcycles requires high speeds in traffic and it pays well so my question is as follows has anyone here done this sort of work what was your experience stuff deleted get good atoz type indexed streetmap for all of the areas you re likely to work always carry plenty of black plastic bin liners to check with the local fire department my buddy is firefighter and they have these small map books which are amazing they are compact easy to use no folding they even have cross reference section in which you match your current cross streets with the cross streets you want to go to and it details the quickest route they gave me an extra they had laying around but then again know all those people not really sure if they are supposed to give sell them the police may also have something similar john little gaijin japan sun com sun microsystems atsugi japan vela acs oakland edu psgi todd rm125 the only bike sold without todd doolittle red line troy mi ex500 dod path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com paladin american edu howland reston ans net newsserver jvnc net netnews upenn edu kin lap upenn edu sanjay from sanjay kin lap upenn edu sanjay sinha newsgroups rec motorcycles subject help with backpack keywords backpack rucksack knee protection message id netnews upenn edu date apr gmt sender news netnews upenn edu organization university of pennsylvania language analysis center lines nntp posting host kin lap upenn edu as summer approaches the usual preparations are being made me was thinking of going for some overnite camping trips in the local state forests for that was planning to get backpack rucksack the next question is how shall carry the thing on the bike given the metal frame and all have big backrest approx high and was hoping that would be able to bungee cord the backpack to the backrest any one have any experiences on such experimentation taking the idea further what would happen if the backpack was fully loaded with full load lbs is the load distribution going to be very severly affected how will the bike perform with such load clinging to the back rest if really secure it with no shifting do still increase my chances of surfing collective wisdom requested really can afford leather pants boots and jeans are all can make do with what you think of the knee protectors which rollerbladers use the one bean and like sells is that bad idea tm are there any equivalents cb650 dod would give my right arm to be ambidextrous path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net wupost uunet olivea gossip pyramid com pyramid oracle unrepliable bounce from gdoherty us oracle com greg doherty newsgroups ba motorcycles rec motorcycles ca forsale ba market vehicles ba market misc subject bmw k75rt for sale message id apr6 oracle us oracle com date apr gmt sender usenet oracle us oracle com oracle news poster followup to dschick holonet net distribution ca organization oracle corporation lines originator gdoherty kr2seq us oracle com nntp posting host kr2seq us oracle com disclaimer this message was written by an unauthenticated user at oracle corporation the opinions expressed are those of the user and not necessarily those of oracle this is posted for friend please reply to dschick holonet net bmw k75rt for sale asking or best offer this bike has full faring and is great for touring or commuting it has about miles and has been well cared for the bike comes with one hard saddle bag the left one the right side bag was stolen harro tank bag the large one and an ungo box alarm interested then please drop me line das path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech swrinde cs utexas edu uunet psgrain m2xenix agora fringe dean from dean fringe rain com dean woodward newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re drinking and riding message id cesk2b2w165w fringe rain com date tue apr pdt references mjmuise watstar uwaterloo ca organization organization for mass confusion lines mjmuise watstar uwaterloo ca mike muise writes in article c4wkbp b9w eskimo com maven eskimo com norman hamer writes what is general rule of thumb for sobriety and cycling couple hours after you feel sober what or should just work with if drink tonight don ride until tomorrow hr drink for the first drinks hours drink for the next drinks hours drink for the rest took an alcohol server class few years ago what the hey my employer paid for it we were told that the drink hour rule was written with proof booze and pound person in mind drinking cuervo gold weighing in obviously will get drunk faster than the theoretical person mentioned above worse imagine rum coke made with bacardi mind you all that for getting too drunk to drive car may only have been riding for month or so but plan my evenings with very rigid exclusive or statement either don drink or don ride pretty simple these are fairly cautious guidelines and will work even if you happen to have low tolerance or body mass think the cops and don you dare drink drive tm commercials will usually say hr drink in general but after about drinks and hrs you could very well be over the legal limit watch yourself mike sorry mike have to believe that that policy works best as fertilizer even if all you plan to do is drive home nice and safe in your cage mike muise mjmuise watstar uwaterloo ca no quotes no jokes electrical engineering university of waterloo no disclaimer no fear dean woodward you want to step into my world dean fringe rain com it socio psychotic state of bliss virago guns roses my world dod path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net uunet psgrain m2xenix agora fringe dean from dean fringe rain com dean woodward newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re drinking and riding message id vsk2b3w165w fringe rain com date tue apr pdt references apr5 adobe com organization organization for mass confusion lines cjackson adobe com curtis jackson writes in article mjmuise watstar uwaterloo ca mjmuise wats think the cops and don you dare drink drive tm commercials will usually say hr drink in general but after about drinks and hrs you could very well be over the legal limit watch yourself indeed especially if you are smart and eat some food with your drink the food coating the stomach lining especially things like milk can temporarily retard the absorption of alcohol when the food is digested the absorption will proceed and you will actually be drunker have higher instantaneous bac than you would have been if you had drunk drink hr on an empty stomach put another way food can cause you to be less drunk than drinking on an empty stomach early on in those five hours but more drunk than drinking on an empty stomach later in those five hours curtis jackson cjackson mv us adobe com hawk gt maxim dod kotb black lab mix studley doright collie golden george there is no justification for taking away individuals freedom in the guise of public safety thomas jefferson again from my alcohol server class the absolute most that eating before drinking can do is slow the absorption down by minutes that gives me time to eat slam one beer and ride like hell to try to make it home in the minutes left after paying donning helmet gloves starting bike dean woodward you want to step into my world dean fringe rain com it socio psychotic state of bliss virago guns roses my world dod path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse emory gatech howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu cleveland freenet edu ci513 from ci513 cleveland freenet edu tom kelly newsgroups rec motorcycles subject mgnoc address message id prsuk hvl usenet ins cwru edu date apr gmt article usenet prsuk hvl organization case western reserve university cleveland ohio usa lines nntp posting host slc10 ins cwru edu if anyone has the current moto guzzi national owners club address please mail it to me thanks in advance path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse emory news feed peachnet edu darwin sura net opusc usceast ramage from ramage ece scarolina edu dan ramage newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re help with backpack keywords backpack rucksack knee protection message id ramage weber date apr gmt article weber ramage references netnews upenn edu sender usenet usceast cs scarolina edu usenet news system organization usc department of computer science lines sanjay kin lap upenn edu sanjay sinha writes as summer approaches the usual preparations are being made me was thinking of going for some overnite camping trips in the local state forests for that was planning to get backpack rucksack the next question is how shall carry the thing on the bike given the metal frame and all have big backrest approx high and was hoping that would be able to bungee cord the backpack to the backrest any one have any experiences on such experimentation taking the idea further what would happen if the backpack was fully loaded with full load lbs is the load distribution going to be very severly affected how will the bike perform with such load clinging to the back rest if really secure it with no shifting do still increase my chances of surfing ride my bike regularly to classes with my book bag take the shoulder straps on the bag and hook them around the rear turn signals works fine you probably will want to attach it with bungee cord to keep it from shifting to one side or another dan ramage ramage charlie ece scarolina edu vulcan dod wanted harley but haven won the lottery yet them bats is smart they use radar letterman path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net wupost sdd hp com caen batcomputer cornell uw beaver cs ubc ca mala bc ca oneb ham emd newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re new hudson questions message id e5fk2b3w164w ham almanac bc ca from emd ham almanac bc ca date mon apr pdt references c50n9s isn dcs qmw ac uk distribution world organization robert smits lines davide dcs qmw ac uk dave edmondson writes dave tharp cds davet interceptor cds tek com wrote in article kmr91b1w164w ham almanac bc ca emd ham almanac bc ca writes one of their main designers bert le vack broke many records at brooklands in the late in the early bert le vack set records on indians including mph at brooklands in november of on in powerplus racing model must have been busy lad he was also tuner and all round guru at jap and worked with george brough can someone post me details of the illustrated ecyclopedia of motorcycles sounds like book ought to have copy of sure can the illustrated encyclopedia of motorcycles edited by erwin tragatsch was published by the hamlyn publishing group limited astronaut house hounslow road feltham middlesex england it was first published in and mine was reprinted in cost then was pounds in the uk though paid for it in canadian dollars have no idea whether it still in print perhaps you could let the net know bob robert smits ladysmith bc if lucas built weapons wars emd ham almanac bc ca would never start either path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov news claremont edu ucivax ucla cs ucla mic unixg ubc ca erich triumf ca ivan from ivan erich triumf ca ivan reid newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re this just in date apr pst organization triumf tri university meson facility lines distribution world message id apr199305162012 erich triumf ca references mar31 rchland ibm com apr01 i88 isc com apr2 rd hydro on ca nntp posting host erich triumf ca keywords sharp news software vax vms vnews in article apr2 rd hydro on ca jlevine rd hydro on ca jody levine writes in article apr01 i88 isc com jeq lachman com jonathan quist writes in article mar31 rchland ibm com pooder msus1 msus edu writes sampled recently were using unauthorized software the inspector general said in new report the inspector general make way for his excellency the inspector general hail hail to brodney to the sky behold the lord high executioner no that something else ve already discussed this in mail with jonathan it the film the inspector general with danny kaye although can quote the name of the leading lady because maltin doesn jonathan thinks there was an earlier russian film movies on tv just says it was based on gogol yes jonathan looked it up again only two story ivan reid paul scherrer institute ch ivan cvax psi ch gsx600f rg250wd si you porsche me pass dod path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu caen dss1 uis itd umich edu brian vaughan from brian vaughan um cc umich edu brian vaughan newsgroups rec motorcycles subject for sale kawasaki ex michigan message id brian vaughan um cc umich edu date apr gmt article um brian vaughan distribution world organization university of michigan lines nntp posting host dss1 uis itd umich edu for sale kawasaki ex with miles excellent condition kept in garage asking he who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt he has been given large brain by mistake since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice albert einstein brian vaughan brian vaughan um cc umich edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com news ans net cmcl2 adm claudius b329 gator pica army mil user from tcora pica army mil tom coradeschi newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re beer unto bicyclists message id tcora b329 gator pica army mil date apr gmt references oof5s lb agate berkeley edu mar24 siemens co at tcora b329 gator pica army mil mar199308594057 erich triumf ca sender news pica army mil usenet special account usenet followup to rec motorcycles organization elect armts div us army armt rde ctr picatinny arsenal nj lines nntp posting host b329 gator pica army mil in article mar199308594057 erich triumf ca ivan erich triumf ca ivan reid wrote in article tcora b329 gator pica army mil tcora pica army mil tom coradeschi writes mxcrew problem with inews domain file the mx crew wrote just an information no flame war please budweiser is beer from the old csfr nowadays tschechien just know the german word czechoslovakia budweiser budwar pronounced bud var not any more short while ago jan st it split into the czech republic and slovakia actually think for couple of years its official name was the czech and slovak republics sheesh don you guys get cnn cnn yuppietv tom coradeschi tcora pica army mil usenet is like herd of performing elephants with diarrhea massive difficult to redirect awe inspiring entertaining and source of mind boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it gene spafford path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse network ucsd edu sdd hp com apollo hp com netnews from bakalis apollo hp com steven bakalis newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re speeding ticket from chp message id c52jgb k99 apollo hp com date apr gmt article apollo c52jgb k99 references na1em mcimail com pqarb fnq gaia ucs orst edu sender usenet apollo hp com usenet news organization hewlett packard company chelmsford ma lines nntp posting host fantail ch apollo hp com in article pqarb fnq gaia ucs orst edu crucej osshe edu jerry cruce writes peter nesbitt mcimail com wrote riding to work last week via hwy from suisun to was pulled over by chp black and white by the gas station by jameson canyon road the officer stated it looked like you were going kinda fast coming down highway you must have been going at least or just said okay and did not agree or disagree to anything he said the next time you get stoped by cop never never never admit to anything don volunteer any information when retoracle question is ask by the cop like it looked like you were going kinda fast coming down highway you must have been going at least or the correct reponse is to deny it this technique is employed by police to help establish guilt especially when times out of he she is not sure who was doing the speeding if the cop is unsure this may be the difference of him letting you off the hook or getting the tissue hope this helps for next time steven bakalis path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu zaphod mps ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu csn boulder news from frahm ucsu colorado edu joel frahm newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re identify this bike for me message id apr6 colorado edu date apr gmt article colorado apr6 references apr5 ucsu colorado edu apr6 adobe com sender frahm ucsu colorado edu reply to frahm ucsu colorado edu followup to rec motorcycles organization department of rudeness and pomposity lines nntp posting host sluggo colorado edu in article apr6 adobe com cjackson adobe com curtis jackson writes in article apr5 ucsu colorado edu coburnn spot colorado edu nicholas coburn writes first thought it was an rc31 hawk modified by two brothers racing but did not think that they made this huge tank for it additionally think ve seen this bike is it all white with sea green stripe and just honda for decals ve seen such bike numerous times over by sewall hall at cu and thought it was race prepped cbr didn see it over at the ec parking lot buzzed over there on my way home all of block off my route but it was gone is single sided swingarm available for the cbr would imagine so kinda neccisary for quick tire changes when first saw it assumed it was bike repainted to cover crash damage joel path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net wupost uunet vtserf cc vt edu joesbar cc vt edu ranck from ranck joesbar cc vt edu wm ranck newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re help with backpack date apr gmt organization virginia tech blacksburg virginia lines message id ps316 eld vtserf cc vt edu references netnews upenn edu nntp posting host joesbar cc vt edu newsreader tin version pl9 sanjay sinha sanjay kin lap upenn edu wrote the next question is how shall carry the thing on the bike given the metal frame and all have big backrest approx high and was hoping that would be able to bungee cord the backpack to the backrest any one have any experiences on such experimentation put the pack on the pillion and bungee it to the backrest if that is not possible then you should be able to bungee it behind the backrest just make sure it doesn bend or break anything like the rear fender or turnsignals bill ranck ranck joesbar cc vt edu cars making sudden turn are the most dangerous they may cut you off entirely blocking the whole roadway and leaving you no place to go pg msf motorcycle operator manual sixth rev path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu cs utexas edu uunet news crd ge com azores sprattli from sprattli azores crd ge com rod sprattling newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re kawi zephyr was re vision vs gpz message id c52m30 yi crdnns crd ge com date apr gmt article crdnns c52m30 yi references apr3 organpipe uug arizona edu apr4 pro haven cts com sender usenet crdnns crd ge com usenet news system reply to sprattli azores crd ge com rod sprattling organization ge corp center schenectady ny lines nntp posting host azores crd ge com in article apr4 pro haven cts com shadow pro haven cts com writes in apr3 organpipe uug arizona edu asphaug lpl arizona edu erik asphaug x2773 writes by the way the short lived zephyr is essentially gpz why was the zephyr discontinued heard something about problem with the name but never did hear anything certain ford had an anemic mid sized car by that name back in the last decade rented one once that car would ruin the name zephyr for any other use rod roderick sprattling no job too great no time too small sprattli azores crd ge com with feet to fire and back to wall path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse decwrl sun barr lll winken llnl gov myrddin seahunt imat com nelson from nelson seahunt imat com michael nelson newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re why won be getting my low rider this year keywords congratz message id c52eip myrddin imat com date apr gmt article myrddin c52eip references mar29 cbnewsj cb att com mar30 pb2esac uucp apr5 cbnewsj cb att com sender usenet myrddin imat com da news organization seahunt san francisco ca lines nntp posting host seahunt imat com in article apr5 cbnewsj cb att com car377 cbnewsj cb att com charles rogers writes ouch this brings to mind one of the recommendations in the hurt study because the rear of the gas tank is in close proximity to highly prized and easily damaged anatomy hurt et al recommended that manufacturers build the tank so as to reduce the er step function provided when the rider body slides off of the seat and onto the gas tank in the unfortunate event that the bike stops suddenly and the rider doesn think it really inspiring how the manufacturers have taken this advice to heart in their design of bikes like the cbr900rr and the gts1000a when riding my rr my goodies are already up against the tank because the design of the corbin seat tends to move you forward wouldn the major danger to one cajones be due to accelerating into and then being stopped by the tank if you re already there there wouldn be an impact problem would there michael michael nelson cbr900rr internet nelson seahunt imat com dod path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse emory europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net newsserver jvnc net nj nec com news from behanna phoenix syl nj nec com chris behanna newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re thoughts on yamaha seca turbo message id apr6 research nj nec com date apr gmt article research apr6 references apr93 skyfox sender news research nj nec com organization nec systems laboratory inc lines in article apr93 skyfox howp skyfox writes was wondering if anybody knows anything about yamaha seca turbo considering buying used seca turbo for canadian us with km on the odo this will be my first bike any comments don just nab it pounce on it these are fairly rare bikes and they are more than adequate for putting big brown stripe in your shorts does mph power wheelie appeal to you thought it would only really bad things the stock clutch isn up to the task barnett can take care of this the back tire wears quickly gee wonder why and the induction system is bear to work on later chris behanna dod fxwg wide glide jubilee red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb360t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx pending delivery agree with any of this anyway was raised by pack of wild corn dogs xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos tech rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse decwrl uunet ddsw1 eff news oc com usenet from lusky ccwf cc utexas edu jonathan lusky newsgroups rec autos tech rec motorcycles subject re tools tools tools message id apr6 ra oc com date apr gmt article ra apr6 references apr1 osf org apr2 kronos arc nasa gov apr5 research nj nec com sender usenet ra oc com organization the university of texas at austin austin tx lines in article apr5 research nj nec com behanna phoenix syl nj nec com chris behanna writes while we re on the subject has anyone else noticed that the deep well in craftsman sae deep well set is too small to fit bolt or nut when took the socket in for an exchange every one of the deep well sockets on the rack had the exact same problem looking into the socket it appears that craftsman toolmaker attempted to imitate flank drive on this piece but did not account for the extra clearance needed inside the socket never had any problem with mine are you sure the nut bolt you are trying is really hex mm is just slightly larger and wrench won fit on gm mm nut my gmc pickup has several mm nuts on it really annoying metric threads too seems that most of the body is metric most of the engine is sae jonathan lusky lusky ccwf cc utexas edu jeep wrangler for sale rx holley bbl camaro rs spd xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec motorcycles harley rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu zaphod mps ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu arnie from arnie magnus acs ohio state edu arnie skurow newsgroups rec motorcycles harley rec motorcycles subject re live free but quietly or die message id apr6 magnus acs ohio state edu date apr gmt article magnus apr6 references c52nnt j3i dartvax dartmouth edu sender news magnus acs ohio state edu organization the ohio state university lines nntp posting host bottom magnus acs ohio state edu in article c52nnt j3i dartvax dartmouth edu russell hughes dartmouth edu ussell hughes writes what great day got back home last night from some fantastic skiing in colorado and put the battery back in the fxstc cleaned the plugs opened up the petcock waited minute hit the starter and bingo it started up like charm spent restless night anticipating the first ride du saison and off went this morning to get my state inspection done now my bike is stock so far except for hd slash cut pipes and therein lies the rub the hd slash cut or baloney cuts as some call them are not stock mufflers they re sold for off road use only and are much louder than stock mufflers arnie path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse emory gatech concert decwrl adobe cjackson from cjackson adobe com curtis jackson newsgroups rec motorcycles subject tracing license plates of bdi cagers message id apr6 adobe com date apr gmt article adobe apr6 sender usenet adobe com usenet news organization adobe systems incorporated mountain view lines this morning truck that had been within my sight and within his for about miles suddenly forgot that existed and pulled over right on me my front wheel was about even with the back edge of his front passenger door as was accelerating past him it was trivial enough for me to tap the brakes and slide behind him as he slewed over with no signal of course on top of me with my little horn blaring damn need fiamms but the satisfaction of being aware of my surroundings and thus surviving was not enough especially when later pulled up alongside the bastard and he made no apologetic wave or anything is there some way that can memorize the license plate of an offending vehicle and get the name and address of the owner not going to firebomb houses or anything just like to write consciousness raising letter or two think that it would be good for bdi cagers to know that we know where they live maybe they use or brain cells while driving instead of the usual curtis jackson cjackson mv us adobe com hawk gt maxim dod kotb black lab mix studley doright collie golden george there is no justification for taking away individuals freedom in the guise of public safety thomas jefferson path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse decwrl uunet psinntp rsi prcrs terry from terry prcrs prc com terry cunningham newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re cnn california mc helmet law article message id prcrs prc com date apr gmt article prcrs references mar26 linus mitre org z4221b1w165w fringe rain com jlp wink organization prc realty systems mclean va lines jlp wink jlp blink att com jon peticolas x7058 writes hey it works you could present the paragraph above to virtually any member of the non motorcycling public and they ll buy right into it just about any argument you can produce in favor of banning helmetless riding can be used to argue in favor of banning motorcycles it just matter of degree that absurd that statement must therefore say that any argument in favor of seatbelts or airbags is an argument against automobiles any argument for lifeguards is an argument against swimming it says that any agrgument in favor of safety precautions is an argument for banning the activity to which the precautions apply extrapolating to that degree is ridiculous there wouldn be any normal human activity left to do therefore it is non seqitur also even though most people do not ride motorcycles they do boat sail jetski climb ski fly parachute hang glide glide bungee jump bike skate rollerblade skateboard play rugby ouch mow the lawn rewire the basement operate heavy machinery and do host of other dangerous things that would all be as valid as motorcycling as activities to ban your little homily applies to all those things and the general public buying into banning motorcycles without realizing that their activity would be next is unlikely terry cunningham terry rsi prc com donuts is there anything they dod diviner of dreams can do homer hifi xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec motorcycles harley rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse emory swrinde elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl adobe cjackson from cjackson adobe com curtis jackson newsgroups rec motorcycles harley rec motorcycles subject re live free but quietly or die message id apr6 adobe com date apr gmt article adobe apr6 references c52nnt j3i dartvax dartmouth edu sender usenet adobe com usenet news organization adobe systems incorporated mountain view lines in article c52nnt j3i dartvax dartmouth edu russell hughes dartmouth edu russell hughes writes start her up and rev to about rpm fail cuz register db and the max allowed is if fail with these pipes there are gonna next time make the numbers more believable this is poor flamebait db is getting close to the sound of jumbo jet engine at takeoff revs from some small number of yards away it is certainly right around the pain threshold for humans no way in hell the state permits db if they have any standard at all curtis jackson cjackson mv us adobe com hawk gt maxim dod kotb black lab mix studley doright collie golden george there is no justification for taking away individuals freedom in the guise of public safety thomas jefferson path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse decwrl sun barr male ebay sun com jethro corp sun com smarmy elef from elef smarmy eng sun com elaine beano leffler newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re kawi zephyr was re vision vs gpz keywords zephyr stock forks bad mushy dive message id psrdn g3r jethro corp sun com date apr gmt article jethro psrdn g3r references apr5 organpipe uug arizona edu reply to elef smarmy eng sun com distribution world organization sunconnect lines nntp posting host smarmy eng sun com in article organpipe uug arizona edu asphaug lpl arizona edu erik asphaug x2773 writes by the way bob er dave sorry had read review that said the engine was pretty much identical to the gpz but that the suspension and frame is more modern the fancy piggyback shocks on the and the think don know about the zr1100 are very nice way adjustability the forks are crappy they dive like mad had progressive springs installed and it made huge difference cheap fix much improvement elef path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse news tek com tekgen interceptor davet from davet interceptor cds tek com dave tharp cds newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re how not to put motor together message id tekgen bv tek com date apr gmt article tekgen references apr01 i88 isc com mimsy umd edu apr6 tcsi com sender news tekgen bv tek com organization tektronix colorado data systems englewood co lines in article apr6 tcsi com markk tcs com mark kromer writes in article mimsy umd edu leavitt cs mr bill writes put pistons in bores first then lower onto bottom end deleted has anybody actually carried out this procedure can visualize fewer problems with canting pistons in the cylinders with this method but more trouble with keeping the bores suspended especially for the first two pistons and with working space to insert piston pins and clips especially for the last two pistons it is certainly possible and quite easy in most cases especially on two strokes it very common to do this on bikes where the cylinder mounting through studs don prevent the cylinder from being removed with the engine in the frame did this when assembled the top end on my indian which was easier yet because it does not have through studs base flange studs and separate head bolts dontchaknow you have to use little foresight rags duct tape etc to keep clips from falling in clothespins hoseclamps etc to support the cylinder while you re inserting the pins are these called gudgeon pins in the uk if so what gudgeon dave tharp dod you can wear out davet interceptor cds tek com mra an indian scout k75s indian chief ahrma or its brother the chief r90s tr ama they re built like rocks r50 velorex nsu max to take the knocks bmw r12 compulsive it the harleys that my employer has no idea joiner give you grief newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu usc elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl uunet newsflash concordia ca mizar cc umanitoba ca klinger from klinger ccu umanitoba ca jorg klinger subject re why mod zx was zx cylinder running hot message id c4v3gd m6i ccu umanitoba ca sender news ccu umanitoba ca nntp posting host ccu umanitoba ca organization university of manitoba winnipeg canada references mar30 exu ericsson se mar30 exu ericsson se apr1 research nj nec com apr1 exu ericsson se date fri apr gmt lines in apr1 exu ericsson se lmcstst noah ericsson se stamos stamos writes in article apr1 research nj nec com behanna phoenix syl nj nec com chris behanna writes power hmmmmmm well haven got it on the dyno or jetted waiting for the snow to melt although have factory jet kit advance jets are the stock is my book says calif uk strange don want to fit it unless there is dyno handy ve heard that bikes tuned to perfection on the dyno can be little too close to the edge for street use cold morning bad gas etc apparently they back them of some even for track use you pays your money jorg klinger gsxr1100 if you only new who arch eng services lost horizons cr500 think am umanitoba man ca the embalmer it175 anonymous stamos lmcstst lmc ericsson se zzr11 ellas ericsson cellular design montreal canada path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com emory swrinde cs utexas edu chinacat rider joe from joe rider cactus org joe senner newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re for johs dhhalden no message id rider uucp date apr gmt references apr1 wvnvms wvnet edu rider uucp apr2 microunity com sender joe rider uucp reply to joe rider cactus org distribution na organization not lines davet interceptor cds tek com dave tharp cds writes in article rider uucp joe rider cactus org writes cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes bozo posts gifs to rec moto he and his postmaster are also gonna get copies of the post in their mailboxes hey it great picture you can fault his taste only his technique chill out and educate instead of getting your panties in bunch ditto to you dave using the picture as the bacground on my sun and haven sent single message to the guy looks like you get to keep the panties joe senner joe rider cactus org austin tx warning do not look into laser with remaining eye posted in radioactive isotope research lab from path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu husc news harvard edu hsdndev newsfeed rice edu uw beaver cs ubc ca bcsystems bclarke newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re drinking and riding message id apr6 galaxy gov bc ca from bclarke galaxy gov bc ca date apr gmt references c4wkbp b9w eskimo com c514ut a5i magpie linknet com organization bc systems corporation lines in article c514ut a5i magpie linknet com manes magpie linknet com steve manes writes drinking riding it depends on how badly you want to live the faa says eight hours bottle to throttle for pilots but recommends twenty four hours the fars specify blood alcohol level of as legally drunk think which is more than twice as strict as dwi minimums is dwi in new york here the limit is bruce clarke environment mail bclarke galaxy gov bc ca path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu husc news harvard edu hsdndev newsfeed rice edu uw beaver cs ubc ca bcsystems bclarke newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re protective gear message id apr6 galaxy gov bc ca from bclarke galaxy gov bc ca date apr gmt references apr5 rd hydro on ca snz morgan demon co uk organization bc systems corporation lines in article snz morgan demon co uk tony morgan demon co uk tony kidson writes in article apr5 rd hydro on ca jlevine rd hydro on ca writes in article c4wkfs bc1 eskimo com maven eskimo com norman hamer writes what protective gear is the most important would go for the gloves there not whole lot that you can do in life if you have no skin on your hands yup ruins your sex life your sex life maybe bruce clarke environment mail bclarke galaxy gov bc ca xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec motorcycles harley rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu husc news harvard edu hsdndev dartvax russell hughes newsgroups rec motorcycles harley rec motorcycles subject live free but quietly or die message id c52nnt j3i dartvax dartmouth edu from russell hughes dartmouth edu russell hughes date apr gmt sender news dartvax dartmouth edu the news manager organization hog heaven posted from internews b14 dartmouth edu lines what great day got back home last night from some fantastic skiing in colorado and put the battery back in the fxstc cleaned the plugs opened up the petcock waited minute hit the starter and bingo it started up like charm spent restless night anticipating the first ride du saison and off went this morning to get my state inspection done now my bike is stock so far except for hd slash cut pipes and all went well with my new hampshire state inspection meaning all my lights worked ok until the dude produces decibel meter and tells me about the new nh law about mc noise huh sez and he has me start her up and rev to about rpm fail cuz register db and the max allowed is if fail with these pipes there are gonna be whole lotta seriously pissed off bikers round here when they go for inspection but hey its new experience have never really felt like menace to society before parked dismounted and walked in to my building with slight swagger to my step and narrow lidded look sensed my faculty colleagues unease with my new intimidating status and women glances seemed to linger just little longer or perhaps that was my imagination sigh now need to install my new bub pipes and single fire ignition wonder how will do after that russ hughes fxstc dod e20 love yeah that the feeling you get when you like something as much as your motorcycle sonny barger as told to me by ed campbell who has an old friend who was there at the time newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net newsserver jvnc net howland reston ans net usc news service uci edu ucivax ucla cs ucla mic unixg ubc ca kakwa ucs ualberta ca acs ucalgary ca parr from parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr subject re insect impacts message id apr06 acs ucalgary ca date tue apr gmt references mar24 rd hydro on ca emoryu1 cc emory edu nntp posting host acs3 acs ucalgary ca organization the university of calgary alberta lines in article emoryu1 cc emory edu labrg emory edu ryan montieth gill writes for those who have had problems with small birds what about the large raptor types when they are swooping across the road after smallish prey had hawk falcon what ever come within feet of me lucky for him or me for that matter he noticed me and my and pulled up on his her trajectory at the last moment scared the shit outa me nothing like red tailed hawk in the face talons and all wonder if riding nighthawk has anything to do with it hmmmm ryan got male mallard duck in the chest once it was like being kicked by my karate instructor no accident but my eyes were tearing so hard and was wheezing so loudly that it quite remarkable that was able to come to stop with the rubber side up the duck btw lived and seemed quite healthy though we both sat by the roadside and shook our heads for few minutes the bruise went from my right collar bone all the way down to my belly button regards charles dod0 rz350 within the span of the last few weeks have heard elements of separate threads which in that they have been conjoined in time struck together to form new chord within my hollow and echoing gourd unknown net person path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net europa eng gtefsd com uunet pipex marble uknet ac uk uknet edcastle festival wbg from wbg festival ed ac uk geake newsgroups rec motorcycles subject ec bhp limit vetoed message id castle ed ac uk date apr gmt sender nntpusr castle ed ac uk lines according to bbc radio this morning uk denmark portugal few others have vetoed proposal to limit ec sold bikes to bhp the reason is that such limit is not supported by accident statistics rare example of governmental wisdom the limit has five year moratorium on it and specialist manufacturers will be exempt anyway any suspicion that this is crafty trick to restrict that end of the market in europe to triumph norton who bmw cagiva ducati is the sort of dangerous rubbish which stalls gatt talks you heard it here first bill univ edinburgh replete with hp and healthy blue exhaust xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec motorcycles rec motorcycles racing newsgroups ba motorcycles rec motorcycles rec motorcycles racing path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu linac att cbnews ewm from ewm cbnews cb att com edward mcfarland subject re speeding ticket from chp organization at distribution usa date tue apr gmt message id apr6 cbnews cb att com references na1em mcimail com dmatejkac51dmb lh6 netcom com lines in article dmatejkac51dmb lh6 netcom com dmatejka netcom com daniel matejka writes in article pq4t7 k5i agate berkeley edu downey homer cs berkeley edu allen downey writes fight your ticket california edition by david brown st ed berkeley ca nolo press the second edition is out but not in ucb library good luck let us know how it goes daniel matejka writes the fourth edition is out too but it probably also not very high on ucb gotta have that list in article na1em mcimail com mcimail com peter nesbitt writes riding to work last week via hwy from suisun to was pulled over by chp black and white by the gas station by jameson canyon road the officer stated it looked like you were going kinda fast coming down highway you must have been going at least or just said okay and did not agree or disagree to anything he said can you beat this ticket personally think it your duty as citizen to make it as much trouble as possible for them so maybe they ll give up and leave us alone someday soon right on it is every citizen right and duty to force government accountability anecdotes deleted ve never tried proving the cop was mistaken did get to see some other poor biker try it he was mixing up various facts like the maximum acceleration of cop car and the distance at which the cop had been pacing him and end up demonstrating that he couldn possibly have been going as fast as the cop had suggested he brought diagrams and calculator he was prepared he lost keep in mind cops do this all the time and their word is better than yours also keep in mind that cops will lie in court to get their way don get me started by asking how know if you decide to fight you have to be ready for this as well as devise strategy to make the cop story doubtful in the judge jury mind maybe though they don guess how fast bikes are going all the time besides this guy didn speak english very well and ended up absolutely confounding the judge the cop and everyone else in the room who been recently criminalized by some twit with gun and quota ahem ok better now maybe he have won had his presentation been more polished maybe not he did get applause ed mcfarland ewm mvuzr att com us marshalls corner marshals the best seat in the house to watch motorcycle roadracing no passing on waving yellow path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet caen batcomputer cornell uw beaver cs ubc ca unixg ubc ca erich triumf ca ivan from ivan erich triumf ca ivan reid newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re carrying crutches was re living date apr pst organization triumf tri university meson facility lines distribution world message id apr199308415973 erich triumf ca references apr2 eos arc nasa gov apr93 unbvm1 csd unb ca apr05 rchland ibm com pqhkl g48 usenet ins cwru edu nntp posting host erich triumf ca news software vax vms vnews in article pqhkl g48 usenet ins cwru edu ai598 cleveland freenet edu mike sturdevant writes when got my knee rebuilt got back on the street bike asap put the crutches on the rack and the passenger seat and they hung out back long way just make sure they re tied down tight in front and no problemo hmm sounds like useful trick it keep the local cagers at least crutch length off my tail light which is more than they give me now but do have to break leg to use it when broke my ankle dirt biking ended up strapping the crutches to the back of the bike riding to the lab it was my right ankle but the bike was gt380 and started easily by hand ivan reid paul scherrer institute ch ivan cvax psi ch gsx600f rg250wd beware drainage ditches on firetrails dod path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net noc near net uunet decwrl access usask ca skyfox howp from howp skyfox newsgroups rec motorcycles subject thoughts on yamaha seca turbo date apr gmt organization university of saskatchewan lines message id apr93 skyfox nntp posting host sask usask ca was wondering if anybody knows anything about yamaha seca turbo considering buying used seca turbo for canadian us with km on the odo this will be my first bike any comments thanks peter how institute of space and atmospheric studies university of saskatchewan saskatoon saskatchewan canada in how skisas usask ca clapped out ford truck path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu uunet pipex marble uknet ac uk uknet gdt aber news from azw aber ac uk andy woodward newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re its still cold but message id apr6 aber ac uk date apr gmt references contex contex com apr5 cbnewsj cb att com sender news aber ac uk usenet news service organization university college of wales aberystwyth lines nntp posting host one thing is certain though its still too cold after about minutes had to stop and hold my muffler for while be very careful about this if youre really cold the muffler will feel fine till you leave all the charred skin on it when you peel your hands off speak from experience you can also do all kindsa americanism of the day damage to your circulation warming hands up on something too hot by far the best fastest and safest way to do it is to shove the hands up the opposit sleeves and stand there like ming emporer for while five minutes should do it path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet pipex marble uknet ac uk uknet gdt aber news from azw aber ac uk andy woodward newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re its still cold but message id apr6 aber ac uk date apr gmt references contex contex com sender news aber ac uk usenet news service organization university college of wales aberystwyth lines nntp posting host first ride of the season one thing is certain though its still too cold after about minutes had to stop and hold my muffler for while when got home after few hours kept all my gear on for about half hour in the house humidity no wind protection and mph do not mix well hell this is warm retired my fleece from under the aerostich last month when the temperature got aboce try living couple of years on the dole so you cant afford any heating you put the gear on in october abd you take it off again in may getting out on the bike seems like luxury in comparison cos oyur usuallu going somewhere warm its all relative happy cold riding who are you trying to kid its the pain that makes it all worthwhile path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net noc near net uunet pipex marble uknet ac uk uknet gdt aber news from azw aber ac uk andy woodward newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re freezing and riding message id apr6 aber ac uk date apr gmt references c4wkbp b9w eskimo com apr5 rd hydro on ca sender news aber ac uk usenet news service organization university college of wales aberystwyth lines nntp posting host every spec of alertness to keep from getting squished otherwise it not only dangerous it unpleasant the same goes for cold and fatigue as once took half hour nap at gas station to insure that would make it yeah hypothermia is much more detrimemtal to your judgement and reactions than people realise wish had the patience to stop when should one day ll pay for it if you begin to shiver stop and warm up thoroughly if you leave it till the shivering stops this doesnt mean you re ok again it means you re danger to yourself and everyone else on the road your brain and body are working about as fast as tree grows you will not realise this yourself till you hit something the next stage is passing out this usually means falling off path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu uunet pipex marble uknet ac uk uknet gdt aber news from azw aber ac uk andy woodward newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re drinking and riding message id apr6 aber ac uk date apr gmt references c4wkbp b9w eskimo com apr5 astroatc uucp sender news aber ac uk usenet news service organization university college of wales aberystwyth lines nntp posting host so you can ride the bike but you will drive truck home the judgement and motor skills needed to pilot moto are not required in cage this scares the sh out of me this is piece of psychology its essential for any long term biker to understand people do not think if do this will someone else suffer they assess things purely on if do this will suffer this is vital concept in bike cage interaction newsgroups rec motorcycles ba motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net newsserver jvnc net howland reston ans net noc near net uunet pipex bnr co uk bmdhh130 bcars267 news from dave dal farra gpz750 bnr ca subject re eating and riding was re drinking and riding message id apr6 bnr ca xxdate tue apr gmt sender news bnr ca usenet nntp posting host bcarm41a organization bnr ltd useragent nuntius v1 d9 references pnakada apr5140811 pnakada oracle com date tue apr gmt lines in article pnakada apr5140811 pnakada oracle com paul nakada pnakada oracle com writes what the feeling about eating and riding went out riding this weekend and got little carried away with some pecan pie the whole ride back felt sluggish was certainly much more alert on the ride in sure others have the same feeling but the strangest thing is that eating is usually the turnaround point of weekend rides from now on little snack will do much rather have get that full sluggish feeling closer to home paul paul nakada oracle corporation pnakada oracle com dod r100c k75s to maintain my senses at their sharpest never eat full meal within hrs of ride ve tried slim fast lite before ride but found that my lap times around the parliament buildings suffered secs the resultant pound weight loss over the summer just sharpens my bike handling and can always look forward to winter of carbo loading obligatory dave it true they say that money talks when mine spoke it said buy me drink path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu malgudi oar net news ysu edu yfn ysu edu ak296 from ak296 yfn ysu edu john daker newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re thoughts on yamaha seca turbo date apr gmt organization st elizabeth hospital youngstown oh lines message id psb6t ff news ysu edu references apr93 skyfox reply to ak296 yfn ysu edu john daker nntp posting host yfn ysu edu in previous article howp skyfox says was wondering if anybody knows anything about yamaha seca turbo considering buying used seca turbo for canadian us with km on the odo this will be my first bike any comments because of this cannot in good faith recommend seca turbo power delivery is too uneven for novice the official tm dod newbie bike of choice would be more appropriate because the powerband is so wide and delivery is very smooth perfect for the beginner dod darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them albert einstein the eternal champion newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet uunet ca ohrd jlevine from jlevine rd hydro on ca jody levine subject re insect impacts message id apr6 rd hydro on ca organization ontario hydro research division references apr2 rd hydro on ca ppvds seven up east sun com date tue apr gmt lines feel childish in article ppvds seven up east sun com egreen east sun com writes in article rd hydro on ca jlevine rd hydro on ca jody levine writes how do the helmetless do it um the same way people do it on horseback not as fast and they would probably enjoy eating bugs anyway every bit as fast as dirtbike in the right terrain and we eat flies thank you who mentioned dirtbikes we re talking highway speeds here if you go mph on your dirtbike then feel free to contribute jeeps you re supposed to keep the windscreen up then why does it go down because it wouldn be jeep if it didn friend of mine just bought one and it has more warning stickers than those little wheelers guess that becuase it big wheeler anyway it written in about ten places that the windshield should remain up at all times and it looks like they ve made it pain to put it down anyway from what he says to be fair do admit that it would be similar matter to drive windscreenless jeep on the highway as for bikers they may participate in this discussion but they re probably few and far between so maintain that this topic is of interest primarily to bikers snow skis no bugs and most poeple who go fast wear goggles so do most helmetless motorcyclists notice how ed picked on the more insignificant the lower case part of the two parts of the statement besides around here it is quite rare to see bikers wear goggles on the street it either full face with shield or open face with either nothing or aviator sunglasses my experience of bicycling with contact lenses and sunglasses says that non wraparound sunglasses do almost nothing to keep the crap out of ones eyes the question still stands how do cruiser riders with no or negligible helmets stand being on the highway at mph on buggy summer evenings helmetless goggleless ok ok fine whatever you say but lets make some attmept to stick to the point ve been out on the road where had to stop every half hour to clean my shield there were so many bugs and my jacket would be blood splattered mess and see guys with shorty helmets no goggles long beards and tight shirts merrily cruising along on bikes with no windscreens lets be really specific this time so that even ed understands does anbody think that splattering bugs with one face is fun or are there other reasons to do it image laziness to make point about freedom of bug splattering ve bike like jody levine dod kv got you can if you pf jody levine hydro on ca ride it toronto ontario canada newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet uunet ca ohrd jlevine from jlevine rd hydro on ca jody levine subject re drinking and riding eww gross message id apr6 rd hydro on ca organization ontario hydro research division references c4wkbp b9w eskimo com apr3 galaxy gov bc ca mjmuise watstar uwaterloo ca date tue apr gmt lines in article mjmuise watstar uwaterloo ca mjmuise watstar uwaterloo ca mike muise writes hr drink for the first drinks hours drink for the next drinks hours drink for the rest in my case it goes down after the first four because the fifth one usually makes me throw up the last two needless to say don drink very much anymore as the last time that happened was in the second year of my undergrad was silly edu breath and pretty bad breath at that ve bike like jody levine dod kv got you can if you pf jody levine hydro on ca ride it toronto ontario canada newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet uunet ca ohrd jlevine from jlevine rd hydro on ca jody levine subject re countersteering faq please post message id apr6 rd hydro on ca organization ontario hydro research division references apr93 unbvm1 csd unb ca news duke edu ls1v14innjml earth cs utexas edu date tue apr gmt lines in article ls1v14innjml earth cs utexas edu mcguire cs utexas edu tommy marcus mcguire writes obcountersteer for some reason ve discovered that pulling on the wrong side of the handlebars rather than pushing on the other wrong side if you get my meaning provides feeling of greater control for example rather than pushing on the right side to lean right to turn right hi lonny pulling on the left side at least until get leaned over to the right feels more secure and less counter intuitive maybe need psychological help told newbie friend of mine who was having trouble from the complicated explanations of his rider course to think of using the handlebars to lean not to turn push the right handlebar down or pull left up or whatever to lean right it worked for him he stopped steering with his tuchus ve bike like jody levine dod kv got you can if you pf jody levine hydro on ca ride it toronto ontario canada newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel news udel edu me udel edu andersen from andersen me udel edu stephen andersen subject riding jacket recommendations message id c52mi5 j6p news udel edu sender usenet news udel edu nntp posting host me udel edu organization center for composite materials university of delaware date tue apr gmt lines my old jacket is about to bite the dust so in the market for new riding jacket looking for recommendations for suitable replacement would like to buy full aerostich suit but can afford for it right now considering two basic options buy the aerostich jacket only dunno how much it costs due to recent price increases but imagine over that may be pushing my limit advantages include the fact that can later add the pants and that it nearly eliminates the need for the jacket portion of rainsuit buy some kind of leather jacket like few of the new hein gericke firstgear line however they may be bit pricey unless can work some sort of deal advantages of leather are potentially slightly better protection enhanced pose value we all know how important that is possibly cheaper than upper aerostich requirements for jacket are that it must fit over few other layers mainly sizing thing if leather prefer zip out lining it must have some body armor similar to aerostich elbows shoulders forearms possibly back kidney protection etc reasonable amount of pocket space would be nice ventilation would be plus however it must be wearable in cold weather below freezing with layers or perhaps electrics please fire away with suggestions comments etc steve steve andersen dod andersen me udel edu andersen zr1 ccm udel edu ducati yamaha srx250 life is simply consequence of the complexities of carbon chemistry newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu msuinfo uchinews oddjob uchicago edu kurt from kurt oddjob uchicago edu kurt henriksen subject brake rotors cross drilling message id apr6 midway uchicago edu sender news uchinews uchicago edu news system organization university of chicago astronomy and astrophysics distribution na date tue apr gmt lines path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net aurora latech edu bhm116e spc engr latech edu speedy from speedy engr latech edu speedy mercer newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re insect impacts date tue apr gmt organization louisiana tech university lines message id speedy engr latech edu references apr2 rd hydro on ca ppvds seven up east sun com apr6 rd hydro on ca nntp posting host bhm116e spc engr latech edu in article apr6 rd hydro on ca jlevine rd hydro on ca jody levine writes in article ppvds seven up east sun com egreen east sun com writes in article rd hydro on ca jlevine rd hydro on ca jody levine writes every bit as fast as dirtbike in the right terrain and we eat flies thank you who mentioned dirtbikes we re talking highway speeds here if you go mph on your dirtbike then feel free to contribute obviously never rode good or open class bike am not paid to have an opinion dr speed suzuki gs850g dod newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu utnut torn watserv2 uwaterloo ca mechpc12 uwaterloo ca sruhl from sruhl mechanical watstar uwaterloo ca stefan ruhl subject crappy honda cx650 message id sruhl mechanical watstar uwaterloo ca lines sender news watserv2 uwaterloo ca organization university of waterloo date tue apr gmt hi just have small question about my bike being fairly experienced bmw and mz mechanic just don know what to think about my honda she was using too much oil for the last km on my trip to daytona bike week this spring and all of sudden she trailed smoke like hell and was running only on one cylinder towed the bike home and took it apart but everything looks in perfect working order no cracks in the heads or pistons the cylinder walls look very clean and the wear of pistons and cylinders is not measurable all still within factory specs the only thing could find however was slightly bigger ring gap on the right cylinder the one with the problem but it is still way below the wear limit given in the clymer manual for this bike any syggestions what else could cause my problem do have to hone the cylinder walls make them little rougher in criss cross pattern in order to get better breaking in of my new rings won that increase the wear of my pistons please send comments to sruhl mechanical watstar uwaterloo ca thanks in advance stef stefan ruhl german exchange student don poke into my privacy newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net europa eng gtefsd com uunet news crd ge com azores sprattli from sprattli azores crd ge com rod sprattling subject self insured was should liability insurance be required message id c52mfw an crdnns crd ge com sender usenet crdnns crd ge com usenet news system nntp posting host azores crd ge com reply to sprattli azores crd ge com rod sprattling organization ge corp center schenectady ny references moseley washington edu viking ponderous cc iastate edu date tue apr gmt lines in article viking ponderous cc iastate edu viking iastate edu dan sorenson writes get annoyed at insurance hence self insured above liability mandating that play their game is silly if ve better game to play and everybody is still financially secure what involved in getting bonded anyone know if that an option recognized by nys dmv rod roderick sprattling no job too great no time too small sprattli azores crd ge com with feet to fire and back to wall newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel news udel edu darwin sura net newsserver jvnc net newsserver egr uri edu orca plevine from plevine orca nosubdomain nodomain peter levine subject bike for sale harley flhtc message id c52nqs egr uri edu sender plevine orca peter levine organization uri department of electrical engineering date tue apr gmt lines for sale harley flhtc liberty edition good condition many extras asking located in rhode island peter levine plevine ele uri edu newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net news feed peachnet edu gatech howland reston ans net usc news service uci edu ucivax megatek randy from randy megatek com randy davis subject re goldwing performance message id apr6 megatek com sender randy megatek com randy davis reply to randy megatek com organization megatek corporation san diego california references tlt101 psuvm psu edu hpcc01 corp hp com date tue apr gmt lines in article hpcc01 corp hp com gharriso hpcc01 corp hp com graeme harrison writes according to peter egan in the just released cycle world his flhs is real dog when he pillions his lb wife all that money for dog that doesn defecate much but think of the mystique you are buying into for that extra or more randy davis email randy megatek com zx pilot uunet ucsd megatek randy dod path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse network ucsd edu sdd hp com hpscit sc hp com cupnews0 cup hp com hesh from hesh cup hp com chris steinbroner newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re tracing license plates of bdi cagers message id c535hl c6h cup hp com date apr gmt article cup c535hl c6h references apr6 adobe com sender news cupnews0 cup hp com news admin reply to chris steinbroner hesh cup hp com organization hp ux kernel lab cupertino ca lines nntp posting host hesh cup hp com newsreader tin version pl9 curtis jackson cjackson adobe com wrote the driver had looked over at me casually couple of times know he knew was there oh okay then in that case it was attemped vehicular manslaughter he definitely wanted to kill you all cagers want to kill bikers that the only explanation that can think of hesh path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net uunet biosys denis apldbio com from denis apldbio com denis concordel newsgroups rec motorcycles subject for sale husqvarna te message id biosys apldbio com date apr gmt sender news biosys apldbio com distribution ba ca organization applied biosystems inc lines for sale model husqvarna te enduro model year engine cc four stroke extras ignition for easy starting suspension by aftershock custom carbon fiber kevlar skid plate quick steering geometry stock epa legal and quiet exhaust system bark busters and hand guards motion pro clutch cable price contact denis concordel mail denis apldbio com mabell work home am selling my trusty husky hopefully to buy husaberg this is very good dirt bike and has been maintained perfectly never had any problems with it it four stroke valves liquid cooled engine it is heavier than stroke but still lighter than honda xr600 and has lot better suspension ohlins shock husky fork than the xr for the casual or non competitive rider the engine is much better than any two stroke you can easily lug up hills and blast through trails with minimum gear changes the ignition and the carefully tuned carburation makes this bike very easy to start starts of first kick when cold or hot there is custom made carbon kevlar light pound wrap around skid plate to protect the engine cases and the water pump the steering angle has been reduced by degree to increase steering quickness this with the suspension tune up by phil douglas of aftershock multiple time isde rider gives it better ride than most bike plush suspension responsive steering with no head shake so if it is such good bike why sell it gee want to buy husaberg which just husky but pounds lighter and tad more path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse emory darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet cs utexas edu not for mail from mcimail com peter nesbitt newsgroups ba motorcycles rec motorcycles subject thanks for the speeding ticket advice message id na1em mcimail com date apr gmt article mcimail na1em sender daemon cs utexas edu organization utexas mail to news gateway lines nntp posting host cs utexas edu like to thank everyone who took the time to respond to my post about fighting my ticket many of you wrote to say that you have successfully fought and won your case in court others lost due to the cop outright lying to the judge about the circumstances surrounding your ticket while one fellow lost because the judge just didn appear to be in the mood for such foolishness several of you suggested that obtain book called fight your ticket the general theme from those who said go for it was to be prepared should do as much research as possible go back and review the scene transcribe what happened to tape or paper use any witnesses that may have been around have list of questions to ask the cop and or the judge and to be positive and assertive am innocent until proven guilty gulp few people suggested trying to get my court date changed as this might trip up the arresting officer he may not show up if the date is on his day off or if he feels knows that he doesn have chance to win against you one individual stated that an officer could be an expert witness and if he says was speeding then by damn was speeding another says that must have been paced or clocked with radar gun lots of good suggestions and ideas from you all ll let you know what happens after the big day peter nesbitt air traffic controller pnesbitt mcimail com oakland bay tracon path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse network ucsd edu news cerf net iat holonet net remmons from remmons iat holonet net robert emmons newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re mail order message id c535ja fvx iat holonet net date apr gmt article iat c535ja fvx references pq12e seven up east sun com organization holonet national internet access bbs modem lines if you get good service from shop or they regularly have merchandise in stock you need or they have knowledgable and or friendly sales staff or if for whatever other reason you would like to do business with them which will in the aggrigate keep them in business and available to fill your future needs but they charge more for an item than another store you can usually purchase the item in the store of your choice and pay the lowest legitimate price being offered elsewhere sounds pretty lame to me let me see if understand now your friends charge you extra just how much do you usually have to pay for little friendliness seems like you re being serviced by some friendly sales people robert emmons never hesitate to sacrifice clarity calcshop inc and maintainability to save precious remmons holonet net picoseconds during program execution path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net noc near net uunet tinman2 dspalme from dspalme mke ab com diane palme x2617 newsgroups rec autos subject re wife wants convertible date apr gmt organization allen bradley co lines message id r3u8minn5s8 scarecrow mke ab com references r1tth b9i usenet ins cwru edu nntp posting host tinman mke ab com newsreader tin pl4 aas7 po cwru edu andrew spencer writes nuet ke pts mot com keith nuetzman x3153 p7625 writes help my wife has informed me that she wants convertible for her next car jp vllyoak resun com jeff perry writes fyi just last week the pbs show motor week gave the results of what they thought were the best cars for in the convertible category the snip snip does porsche have patent on the targa name mean convertible to me means top down which the del sol certainly does not do it has the center that lifts out this is what would term targa unless porsches was gonna sue me for doing that know the rear window rolls down but still can hardly consider this car to be convertible drew here we go no of course porsche doesn have patent on the targa name if that were the case what would fiat do suppose that technically my del sol is not convertible in the literal sense but it certainly classifies as an open topped car in addition the rear section behind the removable top is what makes my car infinately safer than convertible flame retardant on diane dspalme mke ab com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel wupost howland reston ans net gatech usenet ufl edu usenet cis ufl edu caen destroyer cs ubc ca mala bc ca oneb mchase newsgroups rec autos subject re information needed message id yduh3b1w164w oneb almanac bc ca from mchase oneb almanac bc ca date fri apr pdt references yjwon deca organization the old frog almanac nanaimo keywords mazda mx lines yjwon deca cs umn edu youjip won writes hi this is my first time to post on this news group now days have stu there is engine warning signal on the dash board while driving this si wanna know how the engine warning signal comes is anybody out there who low oil pressure usually could be your oil pump or checked your oil lately mc mchase oneb almanac bc ca mark chase the old frog almanac home of the almanac unix users group v32 public access usenet x4 vancouver island british columbia waffle xenix xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos misc wanted newsgroups rec autos misc wanted path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu malgudi oar net news cs uah edu kking from kking cs uah edu ken king subject re the kuebelwagen message id apr16 cs uah edu reply to kking uahcs2 uah edu ken king organization computer science dept univ of alabama in huntsville references wanderer camelot c5k5co f09 mentor cc purdue edu date fri apr gmt lines in article c5k5co f09 mentor cc purdue edu thwang mentor cc purdue edu tommy hwang writes sorry for the mis spelling but forgot how to spell it after my series of exams and no on hand reference here is it still possible to get those cute wwii vw jeep wanna be replica would be great think greetings you may be in luck seem to recall seeing blurb in one of the kit car magazines about company in norway who pulled mould sp off real kubel and has adapted it to the beetle floorpan as for the suspension all can remember about the vw thing used to own is that it had about more suspension travel than stock beetle but heard that there were after market parts for off road use that were as good or better note that the major difference looks wise between kubel thing are the hood and the fenders the kubel had an external spare mounted on the hood and the hood sloped down for visibility sharply and had rounded fenders the thing has lightly sloped hood with the spare mounted inside unless moved to make for more luggage space and has half hexagon shaped fenders imagine nut large enough to put tire in and cut off the bottom half of it unfortunately don have that info anymore try stopping at local bookstore and copying down the phone numbers for the two big mag and calling them they might be able to get the number for you don forget to calculate the time difference to norway before calling later kc quick bones help me get include this klingon off my ss std disclaimer damn it jim kking cs uah edu doctor not bidet xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net agate news ucdavis edu csus edu netcom com rich1 from rich1 netcom com richard soennichsen subject re service indicator of bmw message id rich1c5z86v i9x netcom com organization netcom online communications services login guest references r6q0ninnbpt cronkite cisco com apr23 uvm edu date sat apr gmt lines save youself the cash take it from bmw mechanic idiot lights are for just that buy yourself ballpoint pen and write it down yourself change your oil every mi and you will be just fine follow the regular service intervals in you book also path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu csd4 csd uwm edu qazi from qazi csd4 csd uwm edu aamir hafeez qazi newsgroups rec autos subject re mercury villager minivan good buy date apr gmt organization university of wisconsin milwaukee lines message id rase8innpqg uwm edu references r8uckinncmf gap caltech edu reply to qazi csd4 csd uwm edu nntp posting host originator qazi csd4 csd uwm edu from article r8uckinncmf gap caltech edu by wen king cs caltech edu wen king su in article r7cr2innvar sumax seattleu edu smorris sumax seattleu edu steven morris writes the villager quest seem like the best of the cravan voyager copies to come along since the mazda mpv the nissan maxima engine paired with the maxima speed auto trans should be an excellent drive train and the rest of the vehicle seems well engineered only the price is controversial hmm the last time checked villager quest does not have maxima engine and is very much under powered for its weight yes it does come with the maxima gxe engine mated to the maxima se transmission and it has decent power for minivan also check again aamir qazi aamir qazi qazi csd4 csd uwm edu why should care rather watch drying paint path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl usenet coe montana edu news washington edu stalfos eliot from eliot stalfos engr washington edu eliot newsgroups rec autos subject re ultimate awd vehicles date apr gmt organization clearer than blir lines distribution usa message id apr16 engr washington edu references apr09 engr washington edu bcd8b62 ecs umass edu c5l86z e73 cbnewsj cb att com nntp posting host in article c5l86z e73 cbnewsj cb att com rdb1 cbnewsj cb att com ronald deblock jr writes yes saw turbo quattro wagon on in nj on monday thought audi stopped selling wagons in the us after the this is exactly the type of vehicle would like to own bet its price is times my car budget think again thanks to minutes tick tick tick used quattros are bargains go for about go for perhaps or more the valve are quite bit more because of an enormous hp and torque gain think they go for about to if you can find one have seen quite lot of quattros not that many wagons though at the dealer lot they use very high quality paint and the entire car is zinc galvanized so it will never rust in short typically yr old looks no more older than year old and the bangers are bullet proof engines out of one is not rare even for turbo which is watercooled for the then there are aftermarket chips that you can buy to bump up turbo boost if you are into luxo gizmos the cars are loaded with just about everything too the price of parts is different story though eliot newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu moe ksu ksu edu osuunx ucc okstate edu constellation uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison from callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james callison subject re dealer cheated me with wrong odometer reading need help sender usenet constellation ecn uoknor edu usenet administrator message id c5ujda kk5 constellation ecn uoknor edu date wed apr gmt distribution usa references qvrnpinnnid shelley washington edu nntp posting host uokmax ecn uoknor edu organization engineering computer network university of oklahoma norman ok usa lines in article qvrnpinnnid shelley washington edu yongje hardy washington edu yong je lim writes here is story bought car about two weeks ago finally can get hold of the previous owner of the car and got all maintanence history of the car in between and the instrument pannel of the car has been replaced and the odometer also has been reset to zero therefore the true meter reading is the reading before replacement plus current mileage that shows mile difference comparing to the mileage on the odometer disclosure from the dealer never told me anything about that important story hope that can return the car with full refund do think this is possible does anyone have similar experiences any comments will be appreciated thanks this is tricky situation if the previous owner didn inform the dealer of the odometer change then the previous owner committed fraud and he may be liable the dealer may also be liable if the previous owner notified the dealer or if the previous owner had the dash replaced at dealer or if the previous owner had the dash changed legally any records search on the car should turn up the fact that the odometer had been altered if dealer changes the speedometer he has to report it it goes into the car service record with the manufacturer and on the title if remember correctly the dealer told me that the old mileage etc were sent to ford when my bird speedo was replaced if the odometer can be set to the old mileage it must be if it can eg electrically driven odometers then the mileage of the old odometer must be written on permanent sticker which is affixed to the door frame of the vehicle either way if the change had been done legally then records search which the dealer almost certainly did should have turned it up call your state department of transportation public safety motor vehicles or your tag agent to find out for certain what your rights are your state attorney general will know for certain james james callison microcomputer coordinator of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer not an engineer but play one at work the forecast calls for thunder bird sc it hell of thing killing man you take away all he has and all he ever gonna have will munny unforgiven path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu relay relay2 relay wo dtix dt navy mil oasys mcostell from mcostell oasys dt navy mil malcolm costello newsgroups rec autos subject re dumbest automotive concepts of all time message id oasys dt navy mil date apr gmt references pq6i2 a1f news ysu edu c5u4o6 d3 cs uiuc edu reply to mcostell oasys dt navy mil malcolm costello distribution usa organization carderock division nswc bethesda md lines fake convertible roofs and vinyl roofs any gold trim these will agree are abominations right along with the fake continental spare tire kit it sad watching those little old ladies try to load their groceries into the trunk with that huge tire medallion in the way most pitiful fake convertible top on cadillac cimarron with all the chrome door trim still visible not fooling anyone of course there was that hyundai excel once saw least you think bad taste is something new back in the early saw couple of cars with flocked paint jobs thats not typo think they sprayed on some kind of glue then blew on tiny pieces of nylon it comes out looking like felt can you picture huge plymouth fury iii in dark blue felt think can even remember one guy who did it in red to early corvette that was after he had turned it into station wagon mack costello mcostell oasys dt navy mil code formerly david taylor model basin carderock division hq nswc bethesda md phone path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu po cwru edu aas7 from aas7 po cwru edu andrew spencer newsgroups rec autos subject re mr2 noisy engine date apr gmt organization case western reserve university cleveland oh usa lines message id r46ml i1 usenet ins cwru edu references r1vofinn871 usenet pa dec com apr21 engr washington edu r3oe8 c93 usenet ins cwru edu reply to aas7 po cwru edu andrew spencer nntp posting host slc5 ins cwru edu in previous article aas7 po cwru edu andrew spencer says in previous article eliot lanmola engr washington edu eliot says in article r1vofinn871 usenet pa dec com tomacj opco enet dec com thunderbirds are go writes nice theory too bad the mr2 never came with four cylinder over liters more like or did they were the nonturbo mr2ii or some such let me clarify think they both are litres also understand that anyone using balancing shafts on four cylinders must pay saab royalty for using their patented design like porsche i4 was already corrected on this and believe may have been in errror that it is actually mistubishi apologies for butting into the thread ya drew newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu mars tsd arlut utexas edu lofaso from lofaso tsd arlut utexas edu bernie lofaso subject re fast idle on ford ranger message id apr21 titan tsd arlut utexas edu sender usenet titan tsd arlut utexas edu nntp posting host zruty organization applied research labs university of texas at austin references apr20 infonode ingr com date wed apr gmt lines ljbartel naomi b23b ingr com les bartel writes it did it again this morning my ford ranger was idling at rpm ok so exaggerated little but it was idling very fast it has liter carburated engine in it and no blipping of the throttle would cause the idle to drop back to normal don think the linkage is stuck what can do to fix this problem this has been problem from time to time but has straightened itself out until now don have tach but by gauging by the sound of the engine it is idling about twice as fast as it should be this is down from what it was idling at when pulled up at stop light sometimes bad choke pull off diaphram will cause car to fast idle the pull off which is vacuum actuated provides necessary pull in non cold weather conditions to get the idle off the the fast idle cam locate the fast idle cam on your vehicle and see if you can rotate it to produce normal idle if so locate the diaphram and test it if you can apply suction via good piece of rubber vacuum hose with your mouth that will cause the diaphram to retract then it bad and should be replaced bernie lofaso applied research labs path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu ub acsu buffalo edu ubvmsb cc buffalo edu v064mb9k from v064mb9k ubvmsb cc buffalo edu neil gandler newsgroups rec autos subject opinions on pontiac bonneville message id c5ullq ds acsu buffalo edu date apr gmt sender nntp acsu buffalo edu organization university at buffalo lines news software vax vms vnews nntp posting host ubvmsb cc buffalo edu am in the market to buy used car am particularly interested in the pontiac bonneville my budget is between thousand would be able to afford an or what engines were available at this time know they didn redesign until the model year how is the reliability of past models would appreciate any advice or information neil gandler xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu swrinde cs utexas edu csc ti com tilde csc ti com fstop csc ti com lobby ti com stafford from stafford lobby ti com ron stafford subject re changing oil by self message id stafford lobby ti com lines sender usenet csc ti com nntp posting host organization mhhc references qgi8einnhs5 skeena ucs ubc ca pod sour sw oz au hnbak cmuvm csv cmich edu date wed apr gmt in article hnbak cmuvm csv cmich edu john foster hnbak cmuvm csv cmich edu writes date wednesday apr edt from john foster hnbak cmuvm csv cmich edu subject re changing oil by self from drew kinglear cs colorado edu drew eckhardt in article pod sour sw oz au pod sour sw oz au paul donnell wri in qgi8einnhs5 skeena ucs ubc ca yiklam unixg ubc ca yik chong lam writes hello find this method much better myself too although do really hate it when the bolt finally comes loose and the wrench and my hand both come crashing into my face after coming to which is about minutes later change my clothes because by this time all the oil has drained on me and ice my entire face and suck down about tylenol to ease the pain later in the day then proceed with refilling the engine oil it just crazy how try and change the oil on my cars in one weekend go through about bottles of tylenol and bags of ice john not everyone should be trusted with tools ron stafford texas instruments incorporated box ms stafford lobby ti com dallas texas newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet ftpbox mothost white sapphire rtsg mot com opal12 nataraja from nataraja rtsg mot com kumaravel natarajan subject re water in trunk of probe message id nataraja opal12 sender news rtsg mot com nntp posting host opal12 organization motorola inc cellular infrastructure group references r1crn transfer stratus com r1r4binnfja tamsun tamu edu date wed apr gmt lines jlong emcnext2 tamu edu james long writes in article r1crn transfer stratus com tszeto sneezy ts stratus com tommy szeto writes water gradually builds up in the trunk of my friend ford probe every once in while we would have to remove the spare and scoop out the water under the plywood carpet cover on the trunk would guess this usually happens after good thunder storm few qs is this common problem where are the drain holes located for the hatch noticed this is my probe also when recently cleaning out the back think the water is coming up through some rubber stoppered holes beneath the spare mine looked slightly worn and there was no water or water damage above the level of the spare area this has taken low priority since just found out while rotating my tires that have torn cv boot ugh ve got an gt it has the smoked taillight assembly think this is where the water is getting in when first got it had it for month one of the rear taillights fogged up with moisture took it in to the dealer and they replaced the entire assembly it happened to the other one about months later this time happened to look in the spare tire well and noticed water standing in there the dealer was more reluctant this time to replace it but convinced them to fix it they must have had to deal with number of other probes with the same problem haven noticed water in the taillamps or the trunk for the last years but just last month the taillamp just fogged up again going to try to take it back to get them to fix it again real tempted to drill some vent and drain holes in the tops and bottoms of the assembly and forget about it this is getting very annoying almost every other gt ve seen has had this problem vel vel natarajan nataraja rtsg mot com motorola cellular arlington hts il path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu malgudi oar net news ysu edu yfn ysu edu ak954 from ak954 yfn ysu edu albion bowers newsgroups rec autos subject re is car saftey important date apr gmt organization st elizabeth hospital youngstown oh lines message id r47en mrs news ysu edu references r3g21 jg armory centerline com apr20 bnr ca r1jr9 m1v armory centerline com apr20 reply to ak954 yfn ysu edu albion bowers nntp posting host yfn ysu edu in previous article jimf centerline com jim frost says jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu john nielsen writes in article r1jr9 m1v armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes tcorkum bnr ca trevor corkum writes figure that mph collisions into brick walls aren common enough for me to spend that much extra money for protection but there are lots of low speed collisions that do worry me get into an mph accident and you may reconsider ve been in one and it is really scarey my life is something value more than car looks or handeling consider it insurance it may not happen often but when it does you ll sure be glad you got safe car granted the tests aren perfect but much rather be in car that did well in the test than car that did horribly you raise valid point but again it tradeoff how much money do you want to spend for that kind of protection you could buy volvo saab or benz and get really good crash protection and other luxuries but you ll pay significantly more for it in my case it out of the question because all of those cars are beyond my budget ve been in two major auto accidents both were multiple car the worst was head on three car collision intersection and one person ran stop sign in both cases was stopped and had no place to go and saw it coming both times even in high speed head on collisions the most beneficial item you can have is good old point seatbelt nowadays at least in the us you get an airbag if you get point belt so presumably you get an added safety benefit there as well that something certainly look for and which can be had in inexpensive cars if you really want to add safety to any car simply add cage to the car they are available and cheap about in the usa add to that four or five or six point belts and you will walk away from collisions that were otherwise not survivable but instead of people spending little extra money we get legislation that says the gov must mandate minimal level of protection for everyone one other significant factor in improving one own safety is to get some training this will improve your safety more than any other single investment will drive ride defensively and that does not mean you have to be doddering old stick in the mud people here tend to enthuse about autos more than the average probably in the top th percentile in driving ability but still we sometimes overlook the obvious ve been to two driving schools and three riding schools for my motorcycle very worthwhile investment and besides it was lot of fun too safety is what you make of it just because carmaker doesn provide you with an adequate level of protection doesn mean you have to leave it go at that al bowers dod alfa ducati hobie kottke blad iaido nasa well goodness sakes don you know that girls can play guitar mary chapin carpenter path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu moe ksu ksu edu kuhub cc ukans edu hawk stubbs newsgroups rec autos subject re dirty diesels message id c5y9u2 yd hawk cs ukans edu from stubbs hawk cs ukans edu jerry stubbs date fri apr gmt references nataraja opal12 ceylon gte com distribution na organization university of kansas computer science dept lines yeah but hate to follow them with the exhaust at ground level not all diesels are well maintained either it seems they run for so long that people keep them going long after the top end is worn out path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu ames cronkite cisco com dchan from dchan cisco com derek chan newsgroups rec autos subject service indicator of bmw date apr gmt organization cisco lines distribution world message id r42j3innlfj cronkite cisco com nntp posting host lager cisco com originator dchan cisco com does anyone know how to reset the service indicator of bmw after changing the oil yourself also have about miles on my and so far only one of the five yellow service indicators went out that means don need oil service until it reach approximatly miles which doesn make sense to me any idea ps of cause did my first oil change at miles derek newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net bogus sura net darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet spsgate mogate newsgate usenet from markm bigfoot sps mot com mark monninger subject re bimmer vs beamer message id apr21 newsgate sps mot com sender usenet newsgate sps mot com nntp posting host reply to rapw20 email sps mot com organization sps references andrei namao distribution usa date wed apr gmt lines in article andrei namao andrei namao uucp andrei chichak writes back when was building round tail light they were bimmers it was only when the red suspendered reganomics generated quiche eating yuppies got into the market that they became beamers and the hood ornaments started disappering yep that when noticed it too stopped replacing the hood badge after the second or third one at each drivers used to flash their headlight at each other in greeting try flashing your headlights at driver and see what kind of look you get they usually check their radar detector they think you re alerting them to cop mark newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech howland reston ans net usc sol ctr columbia edu usenet ucs indiana edu nuntius from tom wetzel twetzel ucs indiana edu subject re old corvettes low insurance message id c5umm3 g9 usenet ucs indiana edu sender news usenet ucs indiana edu usenet news system nntp posting host twetzel ucs indiana edu organization indiana university useragent nuntius v1 references apr15 ns1 cc lehigh edu rjnc5sxmg jqh netcom com date wed apr gmt lines in article rjnc5sxmg jqh netcom com richard newton ii rjn netcom com writes on related note does this seem sane price for convertible corvette in good condition how does one determine these things my cr used car magazine doesn list corvettes any net wisdom on what to look for what to avoid thanks in advance rich first of all you might want to join the vettenet vettes chiller compaq com during your search acquisition of the sounds about right for wrong engine condition car this means that the car may not have significant investment value but could be an excellent driver and or hobby car you will also want to get copy of the corvette black book immediately don leave home to look at vettes without it since you are contemplating spending you might want to invest few hours in reading the corvette buyer guide and purchase noland adams tape how to buy corvette the tape shows you how to check for damage etc there are many many factors that will affect the value road worthiness and repair expense of your proposed the list is much too long to go into here join the vettenet where there are over current corvette owners many with vintage vettes that are available to help you the pubs mentioned above are available from mid america designs and several other corvette parts sources good luck tom hp cruiser newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net torn nott bnrgate bcars267 bnr ca dwjz from dwjz bnr ca doug zolmer subject re manual shift bigots message id apr21 bnr ca sender news bnr ca usenet nntp posting host bcarh28f reply to dwjz bnr ca doug zolmer organization bell northern research ltd references c5liw2 cax news rich bnr ca apr17 engr washington edu crh regent technik tu muenchen de apr19 engr washington edu apr21 rtsg mot com date wed apr gmt lines in article apr21 rtsg mot com kissane black berkeley edu john kissane writes as matter of interest does anyone know why autos are so popular in the us while here in europe they are rare just wondering in many of our cities there are traffic signals every feet unsynchronised of course well here in ottawa anyway and the roads are so congested that shifting manually is real pain in the left foot also most canadians are too stupid to learn how to shift manually gee gotta co ordinate my two feet on the clutch brake and accelerator and gotta steer shift and operate the signals optional and radio with my two hands duh it can be done also most north american made cars come with the automatic as standard equipment so why bother with manual when the car can shift for you for no addition money john kissane motorola ireland ltd uucp uunet motcid glas kissanej mahon industrial estate internet kissanej glas rtsg mot com blackrock cork ireland doug zolmer internet dwjz bnr ca disclaimer my opinions only bell northern research ltd ottawa ontario canada dept n61 service control point routing services design newsgroups rec autos chi general path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net agate doc ic ac uk pipex uunet uchinews linac att cbnewsc gough from gough cbnewsc cb att com brian gough subject x4 on off road rally joliet il organization at distribution chi date fri apr gmt message id c5lk50 il cbnewsc cb att com followup to poster keywords april th lines attention all four wheel off road enthusiasts on off road rally sunday april th joliet illinois the event the joliet mud turtles chicago land four wheel drive club is sponsoring an on off road rally sunday april th for those who ask what is an on off road rally well an on off road rally consists of the following an on the road rally where participants are given set of directions and clues guiding participates around the joliet plainfield area the object is to navigate course based on set of directions and clues participants will be given set of questions pertaining to the course which they must answer along the way points are awarded for the number of correct answers given directions will ultimately lead to an off road area where four wheel drive course is set up at various locations in the on road course check points will be set up where participants will be asked other questions or requested to perform some activity tire roll truck tow basketball free throw etc for additional points an optional off road four wheel drive course where participants will navigate off road trails mud bogs and or hill climbs points are awarded for successfully navigating off road obstacles without getting stuck if you should get stuck which is half the fun anyway there will be assistance to get your vehicle unstuck so you can try it again the off road course will divided up based on tire size so stock x4s as well as modified x4s can run the course at the end of the rally trophies will be awarded to top scoring participants door prizes and dash plaques will also be given out food and drinks also available at the conclusion this is an organized activity sponsored by the joliet mud turtles so safety and fun is our foremost concern all x4s must be street legal and have solid tow points for the off road section of the course we don want to have to separate someone bumper from their vehicle the particulars rally begins at instant replay plainfield road joliet il see map below registration is between and first truck out at rally date is sunday april th rain or shine there is an entry fee of per truck you must have co driver passengers allowed valid drivers license is required suggested equipment cb radio compass tow strap and clevis clip board and pencil no alcohol during rally for more information contact gary tom norm jr brian instant replay mi mi north rt30 exit rt55 canton larkin farm ave rd mi rt80 exit path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com elroy jpl nasa gov nntp server caltech edu hacker from hacker cco caltech edu jonathan bruce hacker newsgroups rec autos subject re auto air conditioning without freon message id qnb5rinn281 gap caltech edu date apr gmt article gap qnb5rinn281 references apr15 research nj nec com apr16 newsgate sps mot com distribution usa organization california institute of technology pasadena lines nntp posting host sandman caltech edu markm bigfoot sps mot com mark monninger writes in article apr15 research nj nec com behanna syl nj nec com chris behanna writes several chemists already have come up with several substitutes for r12 you don hear about them because the mobile air conditioning society macs that is the people who stand to rake in that to per retrofit per automobile have mounted an organized campaign to squash those r12 substitutes out of existence if not ban them altogether on very shaky technical grounds at best on outright lies at worst now not saying you re wrong because know that the substitutes exist but this sounds lot like the mpg carbs that the oil companies keep us all from getting these substitutes exist and at this time are available its the future availability that is in doubt ghg get it from people welding supply butane propane you can mix this yourself so no one can ever regulate it away just make sure you use good quality dry gases don know of any mpg carb distributors jon hacker get the os march beta cd rom caltech pasadena ca for call ibm os2 hacker tumbler ridge caltech edu read about it in comp os os2 beta newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech asuvax ennews mcdphx schbbs mothost pts1 mug11 nuet ke from nuet ke pts mot com keith nuetzman x3153 p7625 subject wife wants convertible message id apr16 pts mot com sender usenet pts mot com nntp posting host reply to nuet ke pts mot com organization paging and wireless data group date fri apr gmt lines help my wife has informed me that she wants convertible for her next car we live in south fla so we are definitely in the right are for one my wife has mentioned the miata but think it is too small would like to wait for the new mustangs dec think anyone have any opinions on any all convertibles in reasonable price range thanx newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu linac att att out cbfsb cbnewsb cb att com vinlai from vinlai cbnewsb cb att com vincent lai subject third party car antennas message id apr16 cbfsb cb att com sender news cbfsb cb att com organization at distribution na date fri apr gmt lines since this posting ve received no replies or followups so posting here hoping for the feedback didn get in rec audio car article number newsgroups rec audio car path cbfsb cbnewsb cb att com vinlai from vinlai cbnewsb cb att com vincent lai subject third party car antennas message id apr13 cbfsb cb att com sender news cbfsb cb att com organization at distribution na date tue apr gmt recently saw particular third party antenna on new camry not mine but it caught my interest and new it seems to replace the factory power antenna and is about foot long made of plastic tubing have seen them on quite few cars but can find anything more about them in previous articles nor in articles like to know all can so any feedback is greatly appreciated mom we re hungry bud bundy why tell me peg bundy vincent lai vinlai cbnewsb att com forwards mail to vlai attmail com which eventually winds up in wcmnja lai somerset att com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu news ysu edu yfn ysu edu ak954 from ak954 yfn ysu edu albion bowers newsgroups rec autos subject re too fast date apr gmt organization st elizabeth hospital youngstown oh lines message id qndn0 news ysu edu references apr14 leland stanford edu qehi6 ork armory centerline com unisql uucp qh61m b6l armory reply to ak954 yfn ysu edu albion bowers nntp posting host yfn ysu edu in previous article tedebear leland stanford edu theodore chen says in article qh61m b6l armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes compare either to the porsche and you tell me which was designed to go fast you have point about the brakes especially seeing as how the mustang doesn even have disc brakes in the back but there are significant differences between the latest and the late not the least of which is handling not think you mean late the biggest change that porsche undertook to alter the tailhappieness of their baby was way back in august for the model year when they stretched the wheelbase besides some people actually know how to take advantage of oversteer and enjoy it in europe the got low marks for high speed handling though to be fair they might have been comparing it to the vette handling what was that phil hill famous race car driver said about the you should have seen what phil hill world champion had to say about the vette he driven turbo you can make thoroughbred out of pig but you can have an awful fast pig yeah that was what he said paul frere agreed they both prefered the porsche modified by ruf to either of the vette at that test al bowers dod alfa ducati hobie kottke blad iaido nasa well goodness sakes don you know that girls can play guitar mary chapin carpenter path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net agate ames olivea hal com decwrl csus edu netcom com chriss from chriss netcom com chris silvester newsgroups rec autos subject re sho and sc message id chrissc5ll90 netcom com date apr gmt references apr15 ganglion ann arbor mi us c5l8re constellation ecn uoknor edu apr16 mksol dseg ti com organization netcom online communication services guest lines in article apr16 mksol dseg ti com a207706 moe dseg ti com robert loper writes in article c5l8re constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james callison writes in article apr15 ganglion ann arbor mi us david ganglion ann arbor mi us david hwang writes would be willing to bet that if we removed the automatic transmissions from all performance type cars like the mustangs camaros and the like we cut down on the number of accidents each year autos are fine for sedate little sedans but they have no business in performance cars imho james have to disagree with this have z28 with and speed auto overdrive and it is really better that way chevy autos are reknowned for their long life and ability to handle copious amount of power live in the dallas area and manual would be much harder to drive in the traffic here now if still lived out in the sticks like used to manual would be more fun don know if it as much an issue of their ablility to handle the power as it is the power they lose in the torque converter etc safety wise an auto is less distracting would hate to have to be shifting gears while was trying to ease into traffic in the freeways here performance wise can hold my own against any stock mustang or camaro five speed however if you encounter formula with speed manual you ll be sol afraid btw know of what speak as former owner of auto iroc and current owner of the aforementioned car chris chris silvester any man capable of getting himself elected president chriss sam amgen com should by no means be allowed to do the job chriss netcom com douglas adams the hitchhiker guide to the galaxy xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu magnus acs ohio state edu sorlin from sorlin magnus acs ohio state edu steven orlin subject re changing oil by self message id apr16 magnus acs ohio state edu sender news magnus acs ohio state edu nntp posting host magnusug magnus acs ohio state edu organization the ohio state university references apr14 porthos cc bellcore com apr15 distribution usa date fri apr gmt lines in article c5lmtr mo7 mentor cc purdue edu marshatt feserve cc purdue edu za uberer writes in article qgi8einnhs5 skeena ucs ubc ca yiklam unixg ubc ca yik chong lam writes hello does anyone know how to take out the bolt under the engine compartment should turn clockwise or counter tried any kind of lubricants wd etc but still failed do you think can use electric drill change to suitable bit to turn it out if can succeed can re tighten it not too tight is it safe without oil leak thank you very much in advance winson don worry about leaks don worry about which way to turn the damn thing take good claw hammer and pry it straight out now you ll notice after all the oil pours out that there are no theads where there used to be thats why heli coils were invented yes buy few of these gems and rethread the hole little larger each time you change the oil when the hole gets too big for any heli coil you can buy its time to trade in the car path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov swrinde news dell com natinst com cs utexas edu unisql wrat from wrat unisql uucp wharfie newsgroups rec autos subject re too fast message id unisql uucp date apr gmt references bob1 cos apr15 cactus org qmcih dhs armory centerline com organization unisql inc austin texas usa lines in article qmcih dhs armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes they light the highways in texas funny everywhere else ve been they only light em at junctions and armadillo crossings texas is pretty much an edge case you can assume that everywhere has roads in such good condition such flat terrain and such wide open spaces it just ain so well let see in just my own personal experience there nevada new mexico texas wyoming utah south dakota nebraska minnesota montana florida and parts of louisianna nobody said let go into town and drive on main st and you couldn go that fast on the graveled washboard that passes for highway in some parts but that only really expensive cars should be driven fast crap is well crap wr newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech purdue mentor cc purdue edu feserve cc purdue edu marshatt from marshatt feserve cc purdue edu zauberer subject re it rush was re too fast message id c5lobl ddw mentor cc purdue edu sender news mentor cc purdue edu usenet news organization purdue university references apr16 wdl loral com qn1ar roi usenet ins cwru edu distribution usa date fri apr gmt lines remember roads in america are not designed for speeds above meaning they would be safe at roads like the autobahn are smoother straiter wider and slightly banked example few months back was traveling late at night am or so and was changing highways at bent crosssing it curved off to the south east becoming hidden by trees after about ft and continued to the left strait north wanted to turn north checked the south lane rolled into the crossing and checked the north lane nevertheless there wasn car in sight so took one last look and pulled into the left hand lane now my car isn sec performer but was in the corect lane and over in decent time even at wasn wasting time it was then that checked my mirror and saw mustang closing in my lane fast he had just turned the corner and was just noticing me luckly he saw me and changed lanes in time estamate he was moving in excess of or so was just by stander had no chance of runing from him or moving out of his way glad he saw my brake lights in time shudder to think of what would have happened had wainted to pull out and not left the time he needed to dodge me rule just because your car can do and your way is clear don assume it will stay that way travis disclamer the ideas expressed above are in fact the same as my employer since have none mail flame at marshatt feserve cc purdue edu xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos tech rec autos newsgroups rec autos tech rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net noc near net uunet haven umd edu wam umd edu thorn from thorn wam umd edu thornwall subject dings in the paint on my hood message id apr16 wam umd edu followup to poster sender usenet wam umd edu usenet news system nntp posting host rac3 wam umd edu organization workstations at maryland university of maryland college park distribution usa date fri apr gmt lines hello have toyota x4 and in the last few weeks have been getting quite few dings in the paint on the hood from rocks and debris off of the road have never had any major problems with other car trucks in the past maybe ding once in while went to the dealer and he said that it happens all of the time and he recomended putting bug deflector on the hood he said that the trucks for some unknown reason seem to have this problem more than some cars it seems to me that either my luck is really bad or there might be problem with the paint painted on monday morning perhaps how well do these bug deflectors work for small road debris on trucks if anyone has any experiences suggestions please let me know thanks greg thorn wam umd edu xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu linac sunova sscvx1 ssc gov schludermann from schludermann sscvx1 ssc gov subject rfi art of clutchless shifting message id apr16 sscvx1 ssc gov lines sender usenet sunova ssc gov news admin nntp posting host sscvx1 organization superconducting super collider laboratory date sat apr gmt wondering if anybody else out there is clutchless shifter ve been doing it my self over miles on my current toyota truck ve got over ve heard people talk about how doing this can damage transmission my experiences suggest otherwise what techniques do you use on some old pieces of junk drove the transmission was so worn that pumping the clutch was the only way to shift except clutchless to date ve driven rabbits datsuns comets fords chevy some where harder than others to shift but generally the higher the milage the smoother quicker easier they where to shift my technique is to ease back off the throttle and at the same time gently wrist back on the shift lever if for some reason miss the shift window lightly press the accelerator try agian ve found that clutchless shifting is eaiser quicker at high rpms also skip gears some times using krispy path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet news tek com tekig7 tekig5 jitloke from jitloke tekig5 pen tek com jit loke lim newsgroups rec autos subject re braindead drivers who don look ahead keywords bad drivers message id tekig7 pen tek com date apr gmt references apr16 ctp com sender news tekig7 pen tek com distribution usa organization tektronix inc beaverton or lines in article apr14 cbnewsd cb att com hhm cbnewsd cb att com herschel mayo writes anybody is going anywhere so block the would be passers not only for my own good but theirs as well even though they are often too stupid to realize it ah we are looking for good people just like you we are very concerned group of citizens who are absolutely disgusted at the way that the majority of drivers simply disobey traffic rules like going above the speed limit passing on our right and riding our tails while all the while we respectfully abide by the rules of this great country and maintain the mandated speed limits with our calibrated certified cruise controls while keeping the respectful car length distance mph speed how many times have you been ticked off by some moron who jumps ahead in the car lengths that you have left between you and the vehicle ahead of you while driving mph finally you have an option we are totally member supported group that perform functions for our own good for the good of this great country but most of all for those unfortunate ones that are too stupid to realize it bless their souls for paltry you can join citizens for rationally advanced piloting non profit members only society but but but there is slight hitch the initiation rite to be full fledged member of this exclusive club you must proof that you are able to be in the fast lane of the busiest interstate in your area keep the correct car lenth mph speedand know this can be difficult with those morons around not let anybody pass you not in the next lane not in the slow lane not in the breakdown lane not nowhere for complete list of acceptable interstates and times send and by the way over of our members are highly regarded attorneys in the auto field and they are completely absolutely positively in the business only to serve your best interests as testament to their virtues they will give members off the initial consultation fee feel free to drop me line at your earliest convenience and remember only speed kills jit path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu pitt edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet munnari oz au uniwa cheekeen from cheekeen tartarus uwa edu au desmond chan newsgroups rec autos subject any info on merc summary questions on merc keywords questions on merc to reader can anyone out there tell me about the reliability and the performance of the merc in the years can anyone please specify the weaknesses if any and the message id rbhq4 lh uniwa uwa edu au date apr gmt organization the university of western australia lines nntp posting host tartarus uwa edu au newsreader nn version cheek newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu bqueiser from bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu brian queiser subject re the mustang message id apr24 magnus acs ohio state edu sender news magnus acs ohio state edu nntp posting host top magnus acs ohio state edu organization the ohio state university references apr22 virginia edu c5xtp7 mtb murdoch acc virgin date sat apr gmt lines petebre elof iit edu brenta peterson writes jmh hopper virginia edu jeffrey hoffmeister writes jmm4h virginia edu the bald runner writes just have got to remind all of you that this is it yes that right somtime this fall ford the granddaddy of cars will be introducing an all new mega cool way too fast for accord drivers mustang it supposed to be streamlined looking similar to the mach iii concept car ford came out with around january can wait anyone out there hear anything about it recently if everything ve read is correct ford is doing nothing but re skinning the existing mustang with minor suspension modifications and the pictures ve seen indicate they didn do very good job of it the new mustang is nothing but re cycle of year old car gee is it already yes it will still be on the fox program chasis anything that will be differe nt on the new car as far as mechanical is unknown the suspension will most likely be changed as well as the drive drain from what has been printed on it there is no clear idea of what will be done as some say it will have the modular v8 and others the current small block just have to wait and see also is far as styling goes from what seen is good return to tradition scoop on the sides and roof line much like or fastback you know ford fan must say so looking forward to the next mustang have faith that it will be fine product more desireable than the camaro is now you know that mho the differences these days between ford and gm are not so much the quality just the philosophy it used to be quality and philosophy gm is barely catching up but they have more room for improvement that can only be made up in time stss still come off the assembly line with screwed up paint stripes and poor trunk door hood panel alignments it those year old plants and the latest gm products still come with the standard equipment rattledash tm but like said they re getting better and making the move in the right direction they beat ford to the market with the camaro firebird but really only in words production of these vehicles will be limited until the end of the year keeping selling prices above msrp for the most part since there are so many twitching camaro fans out there wouldn press ford to hurry the mustang since the final wait could be worth it besides no bow tie fanatic is gonna buy the mustang anyway do not put much stock in the mag rags inside information or even ford rep quotes the taurus was pretty much surprise when it was finally disclosed in it entirety inside information had the taurus with v8 and rear wheel drive at one point wouldn look for simple re paneled mustang folks you may be cheating yourself if you do there lot of potential ford hasn released new car without wheel is in years the mustang project has been brewing for at least right wheel is could happen those modular v8 are out there too in the interest of cafe and competition don rule those out either your ignorant if you do and there are so many spy shots and artist renderings out there who really knows what it ll look like the mach iii doubt it highly the next mustang will be ford highest profile car it attracts way more attention than the camaro firebird because it heritage is more embedded in the general public don lie to yourself and believe ford will forfeit that submit that the mustang will be success enough to elicit defensive remarks from some heavy camaro fans here you know intelligent critical spews like the mustang bites man some of you are already beginning predict that the mustang and camaro will be comparable performers as usual predict that the differences will be in subjective areas like looks and feel as usual the camaro is still huge automobile the mustang will retain its cab rearward styling and short pony car wheelbase the camaro still reaches out to the fighter pilot while the mustang will appeal to the driver the camaro will still sell to the muscle car set while the mustang will continue to sell to the college degreed muscle car set both will be more refined do think the camaro is there will be no clear winner unless the ford gets the hp romeo you don seriously believe that it was designed for the mark viii only do you regards brian bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu am the engineer can choose department of engineering mechanics ohio state university columbus oh newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu bqueiser from bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu brian queiser subject re v4 v6 v8 v12 vx message id apr24 magnus acs ohio state edu sender news magnus acs ohio state edu nntp posting host top magnus acs ohio state edu organization the ohio state university references apr23 cs tulane edu r8ufk fr7 usenet ins cwru date sat apr gmt lines cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes aas7 po cwru edu andrew spencer writes think that it is technicaly known as degree vee configuration could be wrong this is how ve seen them referred to then what is flat engine flat deg horizonatlly opposed usually it also equals boxer however think the term is traditionally reserved for and and firing order matters this was talked about here in many months back can remember the consensus examples ferrari tr is flat boxer porsche is flat subaru impreza is flat regards brian bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu am the engineer can choose department of engineering mechanics ohio state university columbus oh newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu bqueiser from bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu brian queiser subject re changing oil by self message id apr24 magnus acs ohio state edu keywords sender news magnus acs ohio state edu nntp posting host top magnus acs ohio state edu organization the ohio state university references apr15 magnus acs ohio state edu apr15 apr23 magnus acs ohio state edu distribution usa date sat apr gmt lines sorlin magnus acs ohio state edu steven orlin writes infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes you re actually worried about somebody stealing your oil ahhh yes andrew we meet again no not stealing the oil just draining it as to leave me stranded mon you think vandal ll do that let me guess you re from hudson ohio hey what this hudson crap actually the only place my car has ever been broken into was in hudson at my in laws in their driveway took my vuarnets and some change damn kids regards brian bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu am the engineer can choose department of engineering mechanics ohio state university columbus oh path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu andrew cmu edu aj22 from arun jayakumar aj22 andrew cmu edu newsgroups rec autos subject re honda mailing list date sat apr organization freshman biology carnegie mellon pittsburgh pa lines message id wfqkiju00ivg81j39 andrew cmu edu nntp posting host andrew cmu edu in reply to hydra gatech edu excerpts from netnews rec autos apr honda mailing list by james atkins prism ga is there honda mailing list and if so how do subscribe to it if you look at their magazine ads they may have phone number to call and you can ask for catalog or to be on the list etc xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos driving rec autos newsgroups rec autos driving rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu malgudi oar net news ans net nynexst com dtorok from dtorok nynexst com davetorok subject re looking for tips for driving cross country message id apr24 nynexst com followup to rec autos driving rec autos sender news nynexst com for news purposes organization nynex science technology inc newsreader tin version pl9 references c5z3xh g8r world std com date sat apr gmt lines goldstein rdg world std com sez as the subject says am moving from mass to calif and will be driving mostly on interstate any advice from folks who have done it before plan your gas stops in major city areas to avoid the cent per gallon only gas station for miles and you re an out of towner surcharge prepare your car don forget things like your fuel air filters if you re loading your car up consider putting your spare on top of your stuff just in case of flat in my country trip tire disintegrated in the california desert it took me minutes to unload all my stuff to get to the tire if you have hatchback cover all your stuff with white bedsheet to help keep the stuff and your car cool as well as possibly avoiding theft mcdonalds have good clean bathrooms invest in cb magnetic roof antenna it may help if you re stranded and you can always ask people for places to stop for food etc many times police like to hang out in the st miles after you enter new state to catch all the speeders who have escaped the previous state same as above when you enter mph city zone after hours and hours of mph rural interstate dave davetorok torok nynexst com fax juggle nynex science technology westchester ave white plains ny path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net agate headwall stanford edu rutgers spcvxb mauritz from mauritz spcvxb spc edu newsgroups rec autos subject weird problem with gm banger transmission message id apr24 spcvxb spc edu date apr gmt organization spc community access system lines having an interesting problem with my girlfriend car before delve into its innards thought check net wisdom on the subject it buick skyhawk know know efi banger auto miles when drive tha car long enough to get it hot especially at highways speeds the transmission has this nasty habit of getting stuck in rd gear as result when you stop for light the motor stalls putting the car in park and waiting for seconds before restarting sometimes allows the transmission to reset and go back into st otherwise it just stalls when put in drive my thoughts either it the rd gear band is binding and getting stuck when it gets hot not so likely or perhaps the lock up converter is not disengaging properly seems likely the least likely keeping fingers crossed is that some critical vacuum hose has broken cracked and this behaviour is due to lack of vaccuum somewhere as used to happen with old modulator valves my background is that my father owns service station and worked there on and off from years of age please feel free to be as technical as you want appreciate hearing any tips suggestions offers of free beer grin skoal chris path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu usc cs utexas edu uunet pipex sunic isgate krafla raunvis mani from mani raunvis hi is ani thorsteinsson newsgroups rec autos subject lois chevrolet message id mani raunvis date apr gmt sender usenet rhi hi is distribution rec lines nntp posting host raunvis hi is was whatching the history of the indy the other day and early in the film around the name lois chevrolet came out of the blue wanted to know if he is the chevrolet founder or mearly driver who name was called the same as the other guy koni newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu darwin sura net rouge sgs1679 from sgs1679 ucs usl edu sudhindranath sira subject help mercury capri query message id apr17 usl edu keywords gas mileage high idling carburettor tune up sender anon usl edu anonymous nntp posting organization univ of southwestern la lafayette distribution usa date sat apr gmt lines hi folks recently bought mercury capri my first car ever have noticed few problems with the car it gives very low gas mileage something like miles gallon hear other car owners speak of gas mileage figures like miles gallon wow etc when start the car it goes into high idling something like or is it rpm after driving or miles it comes down to or rpm would like to know if there is any way by which can fix these problems or is it natural for an old car like this it has done about miles someone suggested that change rebuild recondition the carburettor am not prepared to do it unless am sure it will fix the problem and yes got the car tuned up recently within the last miles or so please let me know if you have any suggestions please respond by email since don scan this newsgroup regularly thanks regards sudhi sira gopinath sudhindranath email sudhi ucs usl edu is he one of us or is he one of them so ask small minded men those of noble mind think the entire world as their family hitopadesha newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net lynx sehrlich from sehrlich lynx dac northeastern edu scott ehrlich subject help find stolen car message id apr17 lynx dac northeastern edu organization northeastern university boston ma usa distribution usa date sat apr gmt lines offered to relay this information for ham friend of mine without internet access his name is robert bob wondolowski n1kda and his car was brown cutlas sierra sedan massachusetts plate adl his ht yaesu ft415 and mobile antenna were also included in the car it was stolen from lynn mass about days ago being on april if anyone has any information about the car whereabouts please mail me thank you for taking the time to read this message scott ehrlich internet wy1z world std com amateur radio wy1z packet radio wy1z k1ugm ma usa na scott ehrlich internet wy1z world std com amateur radio wy1z packet radio wy1z k1ugm ma usa na newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester galileo cc rochester edu uhura cc rochester edu plkg ltd from plkg ltd uhura cc rochester edu paul gloger subject subaru shop manuals for sale message id apr17 galileo cc rochester edu sender news galileo cc rochester edu nntp posting host uhura cc rochester edu organization university of rochester rochester new york date sat apr gmt lines subaru service manuals this is not complete set but includes sections which cover mechanical components suspension wheels axles steering brakes pedals control cables heater ventilator air conditioning body body exterior doors windows seats seat belts interior instrument panel and electrical engine electrical system body electrical system wiring diagram and trouble shooting these are the genuine subaru issue manuals they are for model year but have plenty of good information that applies to other years as well and as long as posting end of car stuff miscellaneous darkroom equipment solar enlarger several objective lenses with easel and timer negative carriers for mm and misc printing masks developing tanks thermometer trays constant temperature bath ground glass mirrors darkroom lamps glassware el cheap tripods and as they say much more beautiful antique buffet solid cherry no veneer handmade with very interesting dovetail corners in the drawers built we think around not gaudy or covered with gew gaws simple elegant piece of furniture but too big long tall deep for our little cape cod house will deliver pricier items ie over anywhere in the rochester area and will consider delivering the others will deliver any of it on uofr campus between now and graduation call or mail paul or mary just south of rochester ny plkg ltd uhura cc rochester edu xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech sci materials path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu ogicse psgrain qiclab al from al qiclab scn rain com alan peterman newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech sci materials subject re auto air conditioning without freon message id apr24 qiclab scn rain com date apr gmt article qiclab apr24 references apr199313375138 erich triumf ca apr21 ntuix ntu ac sg c5u5fy hvx news cso uiuc edu apr22 convex com distribution usa organization scn research qic laboratories of tigard oregon lines in article apr22 convex com tobias convex com allen tobias writes better still years ago they demonstrated cold air system which only used air it was called rovax the unit worked very well the short coming was the seal technology where is it today actually the company and the product was rovac which stood for rotary air conditioning it used rotary compressor with what was effectively an air air heat exchanger and worked pretty well the negatives were mostly that it was about less efficient than using freon and noise problems from the high velocity pressure air all of which were solved by the time the company went bankrupt it is still legal entity in florida but believe completely dead and there heck of an opurtunity to buy up it patents and restart the operation alan peterman hm work al qiclab scn rain com it odd how as get older the days are longer but the years are shorter path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet technet1 shl com technet1 shl com not for mail from sdexter shl com scott dexter newsgroups rec autos subject isuzu amigo opinions wanted date apr organization shl systemhouse inc lines sender sdexter technet1 shl com distribution usa message id qnoqpinnm5g technet1 shl com nntp posting host technet1 shl com is there anyone out there in netland that has has had one of these can someone give me non consumer reports review or point me to source thanks scott sdexter ucrengr ucr edu computer science undergraduate university of california riverside internet sdexter technet1 shl com facilities engineer shl systemhouse inc technology network internet you say its gonna happen now what exactly do you mean you see ve already waited too long and all my hope is gone the smiths newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com ncr sd sandiego ncr com spartan khalsa from khalsa spartansandiego ncr com khalsa subject re options that would be great to have message id apr17 donner sandiego ncr com sender news donner sandiego ncr com news owner reply to khalsa sandiego ncr com organization ncr engineering and manufacturing san diego ca references apr16 acs ucalgary ca apr16 acs ucalgary ca date sat apr gmt lines in article apr16 acs ucalgary ca parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr writes list of options that would be useful they can be existing options on car or things you like to have tripmeter great little gadget lets you keep rough track of mileage makes good second guesser for your gas gauge full size spare built in mountings and power systems for radar detectors fitting that allows you to generate household current with the engine running and plug ins in the trunk engine compartment and cabin feel free to add on ok how about fuel gauge that really told you how much fuel was left like can make it to where the gas is or should get gouged right here at accurate to the tenth of gallon would be great on contract to gk khalsa ncr engineering and manufacturing bernardo dr san diego ca khalsa sandiego ncr com xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com hpscit sc hp com cupnews0 cup hp com dhepner from dhepner cup hp com dan hepner subject re dirty diesels sender news cupnews0 cup hp com news admin message id c5uoxw ep cup hp com date wed apr gmt distribution na references nataraja opal12 nntp posting host hpukldh cup hp com organization hewlett packard newsreader tin version pl8 followup to rec autos rec autos tech lines from nataraja rtsg mot com kumaravel natarajan but they can put out lot of particulate matter heard something about legislation being discussed to clean up diesel emissions is there anything in the works to install scrubbers for diesels how about the feasibility of installing them on trucks and cars would it be any different than catylitic converter assume easier since we re removing particulate matter instead of converting gasses let hear people opinions the technology cummins is applying to diesels to comply with the newer ca emissions laws involves three things know of all compliant diesels are turbocharged all use an aftercooler which cools the air which was heated by compression by the turbocharger up to about psi gismo on the injector pump which senses the pressurized air intake and limits full delivery of fuel while the pressure is low no scrubbers catalytic converters etc are used the path from the turbocharger to the exhaust outlet is kept very free interestingly except for the low pressure fuel limitation power output and mileage are enhanced by these measures one can buy aftermarket turbos and aftercoolers which generate more power lots more power and these are approved by the carb dan hepner newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel wupost zaphod mps ohio state edu malgudi oar net news ans net newsgate watson ibm com yktnews watson ibm com eclipse jgoss from jgoss gaia torolab ibm com jeff goss subject re honda clutch chatter sender usenet eclipse torolab ibm com eclipse sysadm message id jgoss apr24132124 gaia torolab ibm com in reply to jimb hpindda cup hp com message of fri apr gmt date sat apr gmt lines references hpindda cup hp com hpindda cup hp com organization ibm toronto lab in article hpindda cup hp com jimb hpindda cup hp com james bruder writes from jimb hpindda cup hp com james bruder date fri apr gmt organization hp information networks cupertino ca path eclipse yktnews watson ibm com newsgate watson ibm com news ans net howland reston ans net usc sdd hp com hpscit sc hp com hplextra hpcss01 hpindda jimb newsgroups rec autos references hpindda cup hp com lines it nice to know that not alone out there when it comes to clutch etc problems on late model hondas if get few more supportive responses will take them to my local honda dealer or maybe send them to the regional rep in southern calif for their input on the problem maybe some group pressure from honda owners can be placed on honda to find solution such as retrofit of the clutch or maybe ll just sell the blasted vehicle and go back to driving my year old pick up which was now fixed having clutch problems and caused me to look for what thought would be trouble free solution ya sure not to put down honda or anything the accord has performed flawlessly in all other areas for its miles as it is said out of all this something will develop later folks not alone at all my old accord now in the hands of sibling has much better engagement of the clutch even the old civic we keep as beater feels better in this aspect note that these are cars with kms and kms respectively my prelude blows both of them away in every respect except smooth clutch engagement of course the kawasaki is the best of the bunch but need more than wheels most of the time the prelude has had dud clutch from day and after three years and kms is no better best of luck and feel free to add this to your collection jeff goss newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu malgudi oar net news ans net newsgate watson ibm com yktnews watson ibm com eclipse jgoss from jgoss gaia torolab ibm com jeff goss subject re changing brake fluid is it necessary sender usenet eclipse torolab ibm com eclipse sysadm message id jgoss apr24132617 gaia torolab ibm com in reply to lcarr gmuvax gmu edu message of apr date sat apr gmt lines references apr23 gmuvax gmu edu organization ibm toronto lab in article apr23 gmuvax gmu edu lcarr gmuvax gmu edu writes hi ve been seeing all these articles about changing brake fluid and am wondering if this is really necessary have an toyota corolla sr5 with and am in the only if you want to stop seriously though every years you should have this done brake fluid absorbs water over time the water becomes steam when the fluid gets hot and steam compresses you ll also have better luck with the longevity of master cylinder calipers and brake lines jeff goss path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu andrew cmu edu rc4u from rajeev chellapilla rc4u andrew cmu edu newsgroups rec autos subject mbenz bmw question date sat apr organization freshman biology carnegie mellon pittsburgh pa lines message id ufqlzqw00uh a2sgrj andrew cmu edu nntp posting host po2 andrew cmu edu when do the new benz class cars come out the new nomenclature that mb has adopted will it only apply to the class cars or will it also apply to the current class cars does any one know what will replace the current class since the class will be smaller and more in line with the current another question is bmw realising new body style on the current series and series they seem to be bit dated to me path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu wupost gumby destroyer cs ubc ca uw beaver news washington edu lanmola eliot from eliot lanmola engr washington edu eliot newsgroups rec autos subject horizontally opposed boxer engines was v4 v6 v8 v12 vx date apr gmt organization skulls us lines message id apr24 engr washington edu references r6kcqinnhmp sumax seattleu edu apr22 engr washingt apr24 magnus acs ohio state edu nntp posting host lanmola engr washington edu in article apr24 magnus acs ohio state edu bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu brian queiser writes there are two crank configurations for the flat the most common one is probably the crank that is very similar to the i4 crank which flat engines have i4 style cranks comparing those two engines the i4 and the flat have no first order shaking forces or rocking moments the i4 has second order shaking force while the flat has second order rocking moment the significant thing about the flat second order moment is that it can be easily balanced out by adding mass at the ends of the crank the i4 however requires counter rotating shaft with mass to balance out the second order forces am sure that subaru and porsche use the boxer configuration and not the inline crank that you analyzed and compared would you care to re evaluate the other case of flat four think that this configuration is perfectly balanced as far as primary secondary forces and couples are concerned have an article in front of me that says so bottom line the biggest difference between the engines would probably be their intended use the flat is easier to fit under low hoods and in rear compartments for mid or rear mounting the i4 can be mounted transversely to reduce hood length read cab forward other than that there isn much fanfare to the differences between them no matter what subaru ads say technology shared with porsche indeed the flat four is also shorter than an inline so even if it is mounted longitudinally it will not take up lots of length and longitudinal placement is easier for wheel drive drivetrain think that subaru ads hold water in practice their flat fours are noticeably smoother than inline and completely buzz free though some may not like its peculiar note but as alfa has shown boxer four can produce spine tingling scream that only the likes of recent hondas can approach eliot newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet newsgate watson ibm com yktnews watson ibm com eclipse jgoss from jgoss gaia torolab ibm com jeff goss subject re manual shift bigots sender usenet eclipse torolab ibm com eclipse sysadm message id jgoss apr24133254 gaia torolab ibm com in reply to pebi aem umn edu message of sat apr gmt date sat apr gmt lines references c5liw2 cax news rich bnr ca apr17 engr washington edu crh regent technik tu muenchen de apr19 engr washington edu apr21 rtsg mot com apr22 pony ingres com pebi zephyr aem umn edu organization ibm toronto lab in article pebi zephyr aem umn edu pebi aem umn edu peter bidian writes there is another advantage with manuals you can start the car by pushing it and shifting into second gear this doesn work with an automatic peter just for the record read your owner manual before attempting push start most manufacturers today do not recommend this think the catalytic converter is the primary reason unburned gas goes down to it and may ignite when the converter gets into its operating range the best reason for manual because you like to drive one find that its much easier to develop lazy habits in an auto trans car remember pay attention out there stupidity behind the wheel has still taken more people to the morgue than drunk driving the problem is that we don revoke peoples license for stupidity jeff goss newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net noc near net uunet newsgate watson ibm com yktnews watson ibm com eclipse jgoss from jgoss gaia torolab ibm com jeff goss subject re v4 v6 v8 v12 vx sender usenet eclipse torolab ibm com eclipse sysadm message id jgoss apr24134126 gaia torolab ibm com in reply to bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu message of sat apr gmt date sat apr gmt lines references apr23 cs tulane edu r8ufk fr7 usenet ins cwru apr24 magnus acs ohio state edu organization ibm toronto lab in article apr24 magnus acs ohio state edu bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu brian queiser writes flat deg horizonatlly opposed usually it also equals boxer however think the term is traditionally reserved for and and firing order matters this was talked about here in many months back can remember the consensus examples ferrari tr is flat boxer porsche is flat subaru impreza is flat regards brian bmws boxer twin no two wheelers here been around since think the other examples are johnny come latelies may be wrong so no flames please jeff goss path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu usenet coe montana edu news uoregon edu netnews nwnet net news washington edu lanmola eliot from eliot lanmola engr washington edu eliot newsgroups rec autos subject re v4 v6 v8 v12 vx date apr gmt organization skulls us lines message id apr24 engr washington edu references apr23 cs tulane edu r8ufk fr7 usenet ins cwru apr24 magnus acs ohio state edu nntp posting host lanmola engr washington edu in article apr24 magnus acs ohio state edu bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu brian queiser writes examples ferrari tr is flat boxer porsche is flat subaru impreza is flat think you got it the other way round the ferrari flat is degree v12 and not true boxer while the subaru and porsche are true boxers don know about the vw bug though but suspect that it is also true boxer eliot path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu sample eng ohio state edu purdue haven umd edu cs umd edu dtix dt navy mil oasys glouie from glouie oasys dt navy mil george louie newsgroups rec autos subject pennsylvania insurance limited tort option message id oasys dt navy mil date apr gmt reply to glouie oasys dt navy mil george louie distribution usa organization carderock division nswc bethesda md lines hey all looking at buying new car but confused about the insurance coverage this also applies to my existing car insurance policy does anyone understand what the limited tort option means will it lower my rates if opt to have it or will it be more expensive if opt to have it what does it do for me in layman terms please is it good deal or should ignore it not the type to sue anyone at drop of the hat nor am the type to report every little ding to the insurance company as vandalism claim please help thanks in advance george newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu hermes chpc utexas edu news utdallas edu convex newton from newton convex com vicki newton subject seeking recommendations for new car purchase sender usenet news eng convex com news access account message id apr21 news eng convex com date wed apr gmt nntp posting host concave convex com organization engineering convex computer corp richardson tx usa disclaimer this message was written by user at convex computer corp the opinions expressed are those of the user and not necessarily those of convex lines folks am going to be purchasing new vehicle in the next few months am trying to hold out until the fall since have heard that can be in better negotiating position to purchase right when the are coming out need something that can comfortably carry adults kids in car seats and pound dogs can probably afford something in the range am interested in the suv but am not sure there are any that are decent which can afford think the ford explorer got good reviews from consumer reports but is above my range the isuzu rodeo is probably in my price range but think consumer reports gave it big thumbs down can anyone offer any suggestions am hoping for something little more hip than the traditional wagon and the suvs look like fun we do lot of camping too veek path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech concert borg cs unc edu not for mail from brandt cs unc edu andrew brandt newsgroups rec autos subject runner and pathfinder recent changes date apr organization the university of north carolina at chapel hill lines message id r460ainnh3r axon cs unc edu nntp posting host axon cs unc edu keywords runner pathfinder change update am interested in finding out how the runner and pathfinder have been updated in the past few years like new engine suspension and the like noticed that the and runners are identical for example and was looking into buying used one any info would be appreciated esp models years to check out or avoid thx andy brandt cs unc edu newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet gatech gsusgi1 gsu edu gsusgi1 gsu edu oprsfnx from oprsfnx gsusgi2 gsu edu stephen nicholas subject re plymouth sundance dodge shadow experiences message id oprsfnx gsusgi1 gsu edu organization georgia state university references c5l9ow um noose ecn purdue edu qn88dinn8vk master cs rose hulman edu distribution usa date sat apr gmt lines daubendr nextwork rose hulman edu darren daubenspeck writes they are pretty much junk stay away from them they will be replaced next year with all new models junk they ve made the lists for years due to their excellent handling and acceleration they have been around since about oh or so they re not the newest on the lot and mileage is about five to eight mpg under the class leader you can get into hp shadow for the turbo bit more and droptop for as an ex fleet mgr of cars they were amoung the most trouble free of all models bought one for my wife path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet caen msuinfo netnews upenn edu netnews cc lehigh edu ns1 cc lehigh edu rwf2 from rwf2 ns1 cc lehigh edu robert william fusi newsgroups rec autos subject re best radar detector message id apr17 ns1 cc lehigh edu date apr gmt organization lehigh university lines in article apr10 lrc edu burnside br lrc edu writes in article apr6 opencon com giand opencon com deepak gia nchandani writes mubashir cheema don buy one that is the best way to avoid tickets used to have one and whenever cop would pull me over see the thing give me ticket one time my sister was driving and had it in the glove compartment it was broken and she got ticket in had received tickets because of it one for my sister so total of five that was five years ago now don have one and have not gotten ticket my driving habits have not changed drastically only two days ago was going mph on highway with mph limit cop saw me break little nothing happened was driving mini van with my family in it otherwise have cutlass supreme which do most of the times on the highway so basically my opnion is not to get one if you do get pulled over the cop will hear your excuse but if you have radar detecter he will not again this has been my experienc just get remote model that is not visible to the cop but be sure to get front and rear sensors you can also just put the detector off to the side on the dash so the cop doesn see it right away valentine is the best detector by far as stated by car and driver and even tells you what direction the radar is coming from it also gives the amount of threats it is picking up so if you go through the same place everyday and it always goes off there you can glance at the number of threats the valentine is detecting to see if it is genuine cop it about and you can only get it factory direct one problem rob fusi rwf2 lehigh edu newsgroups nwu general chi forsale rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu news acns nwu edu merle acns nwu edu chaos from asbestos nwu edu michael atkinson subject for sale in evanston il one car message id apr24 news acns nwu edu followup to nwu general originator chaos merle acns nwu edu sender chaos merle acns nwu edu michael atkinson nntp posting host unseen3 acns nwu edu organization chaos date sat apr gmt lines for sale oldsmobile omega four door gray power windows power steering power brakes remote trunk release starts reliably and runs well but needs some work obo for details email or michael atkinson there is no try there is only dew asbestos nwu edu libertarian and an nra member path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net ctron news ctron com ctron news ctron com usenet from smith ctron com lawrence smith newsgroups rec autos subject re mr2 noisy engine date apr gmt organization cabletron systems inc lines distribution world message id r3nd7innk9p ctron news ctron com references r1vofinn871 usenet pa dec com apr21 engr washington edu reply to smith ctron com nntp posting host glinda ctron com in article apr21 engr washington edu eliot lanmola engr washington edu eliot writes if the noise really bugs you there is nothing else that you can do except to sell it and get v6 perhaps nice used pontiac fiero gt liters does anyone know if the motor mounts for the and the twin dual cam liter match the is supposedly derived from the pushrod which was punched out liter should be drop in replacement eh horses in mid engine the size of fiero larry smith smith ctron com no don speak for cabletron need you ask liberty is not the freedom to do whatever we want it is the freedom to do whatever we are able path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com emory ogicse sequent muncher sequent com troy from troy sequent com troy wecker newsgroups rec autos subject re questions about insurance companies esp geico message id apr21 sequent com date apr gmt article sequent apr21 references apr21 julian uwo ca sender usenet sequent com usenet distribution usa organization sequent computer systems inc lines nntp posting host crg1 sequent com radar radio association defending airwave rights says that geico insurance not only buy radar for police but also actively lobbies states to promote making radar detectors illegal think the buying part is misuse of money but the radar detector part shows how little they know about the issue no study am aware of has ever concluded that detectors have negative impact on safety or that users have higher average speed incompetence by geico think so troy wecker troy sequent com sequent computer systems beaverton or in article apr21 julian uwo ca wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith writes in article mimsy umd edu davew cs umd edu david wonnacott writes considering switching to geico insurance but have heard that they do not assign specific agent for each policy or claim was worried that this might be real pain when you make claim have also heard that they try to get rid of you if you have an accident ve read in this group that geico has funded the purchasing of radar guns by police depts not sure where path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu caen msuinfo netnews upenn edu netnews cc lehigh edu ns1 cc lehigh edu rwf2 from rwf2 ns1 cc lehigh edu robert william fusi newsgroups rec autos subject re most bang for message id apr17 ns1 cc lehigh edu date apr gmt organization lehigh university lines in article uupcb cutting hou tx us david bonds cutting hou tx us da vid bonds writes in rec autos cpkjp vm cc latech edu kevin parker writes like to get some feedback on car with most bang for the buck in the to price range looking for car with enough civility to be driven every day or even on long trips but when hit the gas want to fee take look at taurus sho they can be found for and are the ultimate in door sports cars performance similar to mustang but quite civil and comfortable try to get late model for the better shifter the cutting edge bbs cutting hou tx us pcboard system houston texas usa running uupcb well you could always go with mustang lx with pleasant v8 but the diamond star cars talon eclipse laser put out hp in the turbo models and hp in the awd turbo models these cars also have handling to match the muscle and are civil in regular driving conditions rather than having harsh stiff ride the awd turbo is clearly the better choice of the two because of all that torque steer on the front drive model but you may have to go with leftover or slightly used model for that price range tough decision rob fusi rwf2 lehigh edu newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net bogus sura net udel rochester rit isc newsserver ritvax isc rit edu adn6285 from adn6285 ritvax isc rit edu subject re mr2 noisy engine message id apr21 ultb isc rit edu sender news ultb isc rit edu usenet news system nntp posting host vaxa isc rit edu reply to adn6285 ritvax isc rit edu organization rochester institute of technology references r1vofinn871 usenet pa dec com apr21 engr washington edu date wed apr gmt lines in article apr21 engr washington edu eliot lanmola engr washington edu eliot writes in article r1vofinn871 usenet pa dec com tomacj opco enet dec com thunderbirds are go writes are there any mr2 owners or motor head gurus out there that know why my mr2 engine sounds noisy the mr2 engine is noisy at the best of times but not even nice nose it one of those very ugly noises assuming yours is non turbo mr2 the gruffness is characteristic of large inline that doesn have balance shafts guess toyota didn care about little details like that when they can brag about the mid engine configuration and the flashy styling myself automatically cross out any car from consideration or recommendation which has an inline larger than liters and no balance shafts it is good rule of thumb to keep in mind if you ever want halfway decent engine if the noise really bugs you there is nothing else that you can do except to sell it and get v6 eliot eliot is right about liter engine in the second and last generation mr2 but the original guy did not indicate the year of his mr2 if it first generation car like my it has liter engine or perhaps same engine with supercharger if it the sound he describes is common to any older toyota engine ever heard don know the relevance of his observations about oil changes my simply makes noise not all that annoying mind you but you hear it well when the engine is right behind your left ear mike newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu geraldo cc utexas edu slcs slb com jes from jes se houston geoquest slb com john schultz subject re opinions on pontiac bonneville message id apr21 slcs slb com sender news slcs slb com news administrator nntp posting host spock se houston geoquest slb com organization geoquest system inc houston references c5ullq ds acsu buffalo edu date wed apr gmt lines in article c5ullq ds acsu buffalo edu v064mb9k ubvmsb cc buffalo edu neil gandler writes am in the market to buy used car am particularly interested in the pontiac bonneville my budget is between thousand would be able to afford an or what engines were available at this time know they didn redesign until the model year how is the reliability of past models would appreciate any advice or information neil gandler in word yes bonnevilles prices avg retail sedan le sedan se sedan sse path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu malgudi oar net news ans net europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net wupost uunet enterpoop mit edu senator bedfellow mit edu athena mit edu tgardner from tgardner athena mit edu timothy gardner newsgroups rec autos subject re the mustang date apr gmt organization massachusetts institute of technology lines message id rck8tinnq0g senator bedfellow mit edu references apr22 virginia edu c5xtp7 mtb murdoch acc virgin apr24 magnus acs ohio state edu nntp posting host pesto mit edu in article apr24 magnus acs ohio state edu bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu brian queiser writes on the subject of the upcoming new mustang do not put much stock in the mag rags inside information or even ford rep quotes the taurus was pretty much surprise when it was finally disclosed in it entirety inside information had the taurus with v8 and rear wheel drive at one point wouldn look for simple re paneled mustang folks you may be cheating yourself if you do there lot of potential ford hasn released new car without wheel is in years the mustang project has been brewing for at least right wheel is could happen those modular v8 are out there too in the interest of cafe and competition don rule those out either your ignorant if you do and there are so many spy shots and artist renderings out there who really knows what it ll look like the mach iii doubt it highly the next mustang will be ford highest profile car it attracts way more attention than the camaro firebird because it heritage is more embedded in the general public don lie to yourself and believe ford will forfeit that the car magazines have printed lot of information about the new mustang and the consensus about what to believe in my car circle is that the suspension pieces and tuning will be almost identical to the current cobra but on stiffer body structure which will improve its behavior after the mn12 thunderbird cost and weight debacle ford decided independent rear suspension with rear wheel drive won be tried again in volume car the current will soldier on for about two years version of the valve modular in the mark viii could be offered then ford is spending big money tooling up for and engines which will power most of their cars in the immediate future and therefore probably do not consider volume production of hp engines priority undisguised the car looks ok but not nearly as exciting as the new camaro firebird imo suspect ford will produce their car with higher quality than gm will achieve with the camaro firebird the way gm loses money the temptation to just get them out the door for the sake of positive cash flow will be great once demand really takes off tim gardner path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com foxtail blkhole vllyoak jp from jp vllyoak resun com jeff perry newsgroups rec autos subject re the mustang message id qqh3b1w165w vllyoak resun com date fri apr pdt references c5xtp7 mtb murdoch acc virginia edu organization private site in san marcos california lines jmh hopper virginia edu jeffrey hoffmeister writes in article apr22 virginia edu jmm4h virginia edu the blad just have got to remind all of you that this is it yes that right somtime this fall ford the granddaddy of cars will be introducing an all new mega cool way too fast for accord drivers mustang it supposed to be streamlined looking similar to the mach iii concept car ford came out with around january can wait anyone out there hear anything about it recently if everything ve read is correct ford is doing nothing but re skinning the existing mustang with minor suspension modifications and the pictures ve seen indicate they didn do very good job of it the new mustang is nothing but re cycle of year old car just saw picture of the mustang in popular mechanics what disappointment after being bombarded with pictures of the mach iii jp newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net noc near net uunet newsflash concordia ca nstn ns ca dragon acadiau ca mizzou1 missouri edu c465353 from c465353 mizzou1 missouri edu jim struglia subject michelin trx tires info needed message id bba108d9 c465353 mizzou1 missouri edu sender news dragon acadiau ca nntp posting host mizzou1 missouri edu organization university of missouri date sat apr gmt lines hi all have available to me set of metric wheels came off mustang or bird which are wearing nearly bald michelin trx r390 tires the only place have found these tires is the tire rack mailorder place for pop is there cheaper source or another manufacturer of this size tire thanks for any info please mail responses and will post summary if there is any interest jas jim struglia c465353 mizzou1 missouri edu c465353 mizzou1 bitnet newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu darwin sura net sgiblab sgigate odin twilight ipecac steve from steve ipecac wpd sgi com uncle wiggily in connecticut subject re what car is this message id he880rc twilight wpd sgi com sender news twilight wpd sgi com cnews account at twilight wpd sgi com organization silicon graphics inc mountain view ca references apr20 wam umd edu apr21 reed edu r3n32innk9p ctron news ctron com date wed apr gmt lines in r3n32innk9p ctron news ctron com smith ctron com lawrence smith writes in article apr21 reed edu rseymour reed edu robert seymour writes in article apr20 wam umd edu lerxst wam umd edu where my thing writes it was called bricklin bricklins were manufactured in the with engines from ford waitaminnit didn the bricklin have an pugeot six cylinder or am confusing it with the delorean was sure the delorean had v8 the delorean used the peugot renault volvo v6 in rear engine configuration the bricklin use some merkin iron in front engine rear drive configuration steve valin steve sgi com ve just had my brain washed and can do thing with it newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu swrinde cs utexas edu uunet dove starchild ncsl nist gov keys from keys starchild ncsl nist gov lawrence keys subject re questions about insurance companies esp geico message id c5unfy e7i dove nist gov sender news dove nist gov organization national institute of standards technology references apr21 julian uwo ca c5ui6u ao0 murdoch acc virginia edu distribution usa date wed apr gmt lines in article c5ui6u ao0 murdoch acc virginia edu jmh hopper virginia edu jeffrey hoffmeister writes in article apr21 julian uwo ca wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith writes in article mimsy umd edu davew cs umd edu david wonnacott writes considering switching to geico insurance but have heard that they do not assign specific agent for each policy or claim was worried that this might be real pain when you make claim have also heard that they try to get rid of you if you have an accident ve read in this group that geico has funded the purchasing of radar guns by police depts not sure where geico has purchased radar guns in several states know they have done it here in ct have also heard horror stories about people that have been insured by geico for years and then had accident and were immediately dropped and once you ve been dropped by any insruance company you become labled high risk and end up forking out or times what you should be for insurance this must vary from state to state because our old company kemper wanted to drop me keeping my wife or tripple our premium because had ticket only points for mph over speed limit well called geico and they insured both my wife and for less then we were previously paying kemper generally hate the whole insurance game realize that it is necessary but the way that person can get dicked around doesn make any sense one good thing about geico is that everything can be handled over the phone my suggestion stay where you are or shop around but stay away from geico jeff larry keys csmes ncsl nist gov oo fahrvergnugen forever the fact that need to explain it to you indicates that you probably wouldn understand anyway path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu magnus acs ohio state edu csn ub dsinc netnews upenn edu netnews cc lehigh edu ns1 cc lehigh edu amh2 from amh2 ns1 cc lehigh edu alois himsl newsgroups rec autos subject re dumbest automotive concepts of all time message id apr24 ns1 cc lehigh edu date apr gmt organization lehigh university lines in article apr15 jpl devvax jpl nasa gov nancy hayduke nancy feagans writes ashtrays and cigarette lighters these should be an option nancy feagans jet propulsion lab nancy jpl devvax jpl nasa gov not shred of evidence exists in favor of the idea that life is serious you forget that the cigarette lighter plug is essential for plugging in radar detectors and lights the ashtrays are also essential because they are great places to keep change and tokens al newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu usenet coe montana edu news washington edu spiff seattleu edu thebes ole ssave from ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate subject v4 v6 v8 v12 vx message id apr21 ole cdac com organization cdac wa date wed apr gmt lines am curious about knowing which commericial cars today have engines v4 don know of any v6 legend mr3 mr6 v8 don know of any v12 jaguar xjs please add to the list thanks ssave ole cdac com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu usenet ins cwru edu news ysu edu yfn ysu edu ah301 from ah301 yfn ysu edu jerry sy newsgroups rec autos subject are ford shop manuals good date apr gmt organization st elizabeth hospital youngstown oh lines message id rcpd2 dke news ysu edu reply to ah301 yfn ysu edu jerry sy nntp posting host yfn ysu edu am planning on buying repair manual for my ford taurus is the ford shop manual comprehensive enough covering repairs in all aspects of the car how about the haynes manual for tarus please email replies if possible thanks in advance jerry newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu usc cs utexas edu cactus org boyle from boyle cactus org craig boyle subject re is car saftey important message id apr21 cactus org organization capital area central texas unix society austin tx references apr20 bnr ca conradie firga sun ac za date wed apr gmt lines in article conradie firga sun ac za conradie firga sun ac za gerrit conradie writes much discussion about economics of safety deleted safety is an important criterium for me when buying car won buy small car like civic or whatever great safety handling speed for me seems to me that you would be more dead in small car than large car after an accident this is very simplistic view of safety assuming that you are in collision less likely with more agile smaller car then the important factor is how well does the car sacrifice itself to save you this is why thousand pound f1 car can hit wall at and the driver walks out and why everybody dies when suburban hits wall at as recall for the last generation suburban hic numbers as an aside just what is the point of an airbag it seems to me that seatbelts with pretensioners audi et al or good tight point belt will prevent you every moving far enough to hit the airbag you might be saved from some flyign glass or is an airbag just lowest common denominator safety device that is of some use in head on collision when you are wearing no seat belt craig gerrit newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net torn nott cunews freenet carleton ca freenet carleton ca ae045 from ae045 freenet carleton ca mike harker subject re what car is this message id apr25 freenet carleton ca sender news freenet carleton ca news administrator organization national capital freenet ottawa canada date sun apr gmt lines you guys are correct the bricklin was produced in canada the national museum of science and technology here in ottawa has one and sometimes they put it on display most of the time it stays in storage because the museum doesn have much room it big deal for car to be canadian and that why they have it if anybody fan they also have nice green riviera that looks like it just came out of the showroom mike harker ottawa ontario canada voice paul tomblin formerly pt geovision gvc com sven law there exceptions to every law except this one path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester galileo cc rochester edu ub acsu buffalo edu ubvmsd cc buffalo edu v064mb9k from v064mb9k ubvmsd cc buffalo edu neil gandler newsgroups rec autos subject need info on bonneville message id c60ahi o0 acsu buffalo edu date apr gmt sender nntp acsu buffalo edu organization university at buffalo lines news software vax vms vnews nntp posting host ubvmsd cc buffalo edu am little confused on all of the models of the bonnevilles have heard of the le se lse sse ssei could someone tell me the differences are far as features or performance am also curious to know what the book value is for prefereably the model and how much less than book value can you usually get them for in other words how much are they in demand this time of year have heard that the mid spring early summer is the best time to buy neil gandler path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net noc near net uunet digex com digex com not for mail from cerulean access digex com bill christens barry newsgroups rec autos subject camrys eating clutch master cyls date apr organization express access online communications greenbelt md usa lines message id rcqub f8 access digex net nntp posting host access digex net summary why the repeated leaks keywords clutch master cyl problems have both an and an camry each with manual speed transmissions the has about miles on it and the about miles about year ago found that the master cylinder on the clutch in the was leaking fluid around the piston seal leading to air in the system and fluid back into the passenger compartment of the car pulled the plunger and got rebuild kit new plunger seal etc and thought had the problem licked much to my surprise the same problem developed several months later this time looked carefully at the master cylinder to make sure there were no scratches burrs or other obvious causes of the problem didn find any ever since have been periodically feeding the clutch hydraulins additional fluid and bleeding air from the system knew would be selling the car and didn want to go all the way to solving the problem should add that the clutch is original and that ve had to adjust the pedal to allow maximum extension of the piston into the master cylinder in order to actuate the clutch my hypothesis is that this means that when fully depressing the clutch pedal the angle of the piston rod attached to the pedal is off the axix of the cylinder thus cocking the piston and seal and perhaps deforming it what do you think of that as an explanation can you suggest possible fix short of replacing the master cylinder and getting new clutch put in now the same problem except that the above diagnosis doesn explain why all of the fluid leaked out by way of the master cylinder into the passenger compartment while was on vacation for days during which the clutch pedal was not depressed or otherwise caused to distort what can you suggest here many thanks let hope don end up going to click and clack on this bill christens barry cerulean access digex com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uunet ca xenitec tdkcs waterloo on ca sanity tdkcs waterloo on ca gkirkaldie from gkirkaldie sanity tdkcs waterloo on ca george kirkaldie newsgroups rec autos message id ea x6 xp9cgigy sanity tdkcs waterloo on ca organization sanitarium bbs cambridge ontario canada subject re birds are they physics majors references re birds are they physics majors reply to gkirkaldie sanity tdkcs waterloo on ca software hermes gus rev sep date tue apr est lines in c5pn2p l44 darkside osrhe uoknor edu operator writes crazy question anyone ever wonder how birds can drop load on car going over mph took non stop trip got shitted on four times every time hitting the windshield not even the open sunroof guess we have conscientious birds was going mph used to have galaxie convertible was sitting at light waiting for it to turn green it turned green but hesitated little sleeping guess and bird bombed me it landed directly in front of me at eye level guess the bird miscalculated and thought was going to take off right away and still trying to figure out the one got under my rear bumper as well was the bird flying up and doing fancy acrobatics at my car and decided to drop one while executing perfect loop tt030 mustang gt george kirkaldie pioneer audio control gkirkaldie sanity tdkcs waterloo on ca phoenix gold kicker flowmaster motorsport cambridge ontario canada path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu linac att bu edu acs2 bu edu heiser from heiser acs2 bu edu bill heiser newsgroups rec autos subject auto wax message id bu edu date apr gmt sender news bu edu distribution usa organization boston university boston ma usa lines originator heiser acs2 bu edu having recently purchased probe with clear coat paint would like to give it good wax job what is the best type of wax to use for this type of finish is paste or liquid better would be waxing it by hand and buffing it by hand guess using cheesecloth to buff it anything better you would suggest ve heard comments here before about things like turtle wax and raindance not being very good so wondering what is recommended for quality finish thanks in advance bill bill heiser heiser acs bu edu heiser world std com boston university boston ma path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc venice batman bmd trw com mcrosbie from mcrosbie batman bmd trw com newsgroups rec autos subject any syclone or typhoon owners out there message id apr21 batman bmd trw com date apr mst lines want to start of list for syclone and typhoon owners if you are interested in participating please contact me via mail merrill path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu usenet coe montana edu news washington edu stalfos eliot from eliot stalfos engr washington edu eliot newsgroups rec autos subject re mr2 noisy engine date apr gmt organization clearer than blir lines message id apr21 engr washington edu references r1vofinn871 usenet pa dec com apr21 engr washington edu apr21 ultb isc rit edu nntp posting host in article apr21 ultb isc rit edu adn6285 ritvax isc rit edu writes the sound he describes is common to any older toyota engine ever heard don know the relevance of his observations about oil changes my simply makes noise not all that annoying mind you but you hear it well when the engine is right behind your left ear think those with mr2 would describe the engine as sweet if little loud those with mr2 can imagine any unbiased person paying it any compliments sounded like my ex dormmate rusty chevy chevette with the would want to redline it just for the music with the would short shift so that it would shut up the new camry features balance shafts guess since the mr2 is getting the axe it is too late for them to do anything about this it is no mystery that the turbo mr2 is only liters the engineers had enough integrity to prevent any further abuses also in europe the mr2 mk2 non turbo was also only liters as usual the undiscriminating american market if it is japanese it must be good gets the dogs to be fair we also got the turbo which the europeans did not eliot path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu linac att bu edu acs2 bu edu heiser from heiser acs2 bu edu bill heiser newsgroups rec autos subject re ford probe opinions centered around the gt message id bu edu date apr gmt references ufofxkq00imfi4dks0 andrew cmu edu apr20 sco com apr20 ncsu edu sender news bu edu organization boston university boston ma usa lines in article apr20 ncsu edu chuck eos ncsu edu chuck kesler writes jeremy mereness zonker cmu edu says can anyone offer any opinions of the ford probe ala how they do in the long run repair records reliability mileage etc some other owners on the ford probe world std com mailing list have commented about this problem but haven seen it happen on my month old probe gt think this may be something that ford has corrected since the initial batch of cars also someone said that ford has issued service bulletin to inform dealers about how to correct this problem so you may be able to get your dealer to fix it have had my probe looked at twice by my local dealer where purchased the car the first time they made this problem worse the second time after advising them of the service bulletin mentioned on my ford probe mailing list they said they didn know of the bulletin they adjusted the window and made it much better however it now makes scritch scritch noise on rough roads and still squeals when open close the window in wet weather anyone elses do this ford only gives key with the car mon ford spend an extra few pennies got two keys with my car but only one remote entry push button thingie but then bought my with miles and think it may have been repossession so not surprised something was missing horn buttons behind air bag in spokes and not in center personal preference am seriously considering following the advice in the owners manual where it describes the procedure to follow if you discover something on your ford that could cause serious injury threaten lives etc something about notifying the national traffic safety group as well as ford those little you ve got to position the fingers perfectly to make it beep buttons are terrible the latter is probably because of the air bag it pretty much takes up all the space where you expect to find the horn speaking of the horn was surprised to find that the probe comes with one of those nice merican sounding horns instead of the japanese sounding kind the previous probes had japanese horns well guess that good in way but in way it bad when someone hears that kind of horn they expect to see big american car they may not associate the sound with small jap car style car like the probe is tires fling dirt mud onto side of car yeah not very badly but enough to be annoying sometimes the mudflaps help lot transmission the speed is must have always been speed guy almost every car ve ever owned has been speed because got good deal on this car with the miles knowingly overlooked the fact that it has an automatic but it is pretty high tech automatic it is fully electronicaly controlled speed with torque converter lockup even with the automatic getting mpg on the highway driving but of course driving is illegal so probably made that sentence up around town the mileage has been around not bad for an automatic of course it doesn have the control of speed but since do lot of city driving it turns out to be very convenient it nice to be able to drink cup of coffee and drive at the same time although that too is illegal here in we like to control your life massachusetts no shake rattle noises when going over bumps potholes still shakes and rattles has been my main gripe ve gotten them to fix the worst of them but fear that with the rather harsh ride the car will be virtual potpouri of rattles when it gets older tires vr16 goodyear eagles left hoping for on my probe gl got about out of the original goodyears and had driven the replacement tires bridgestone miles when tradeed the car the vr14 firestones on my probe look like they re designed for performance ie rather wide shallow tread etc so they probably won last as long but the car handles very very very well it sticks to the road like glue even on rough surface interior is very very nice too very pleasing to the eye and ergonomically sound definitely ford mazda did very very nice job on this one the car has much more expensive than it actually is look and feel to it yes this car stiff suspension isn for everyone personally like it but if you find it little harsh but otherwise like the car strongly suggest looking into the mx having driven an probe for years find the suspension interesting the car actually drives much better than the it is very firm ride and you definitely know about each and every bump in the road yet the car remains very civilized on even the bumpiest roads you hear and feel the bumps yet the car retains its posture very well if you have passengers by all means bring them along too they ll find that they have no room in the back and you ll find that the car rides differently if that better is up to you well wouldn encourage passenger carrying in the probe unless the person in the front seat likes to sit with his knees to the dash as mentioned in the consumer reports write ups consider the back seat as parcel shelf no biggie to me though if it had been not have bought the car but it definitely not family car also there lot of glass around you which wasn expecting the temperature inside the car gets pretty hot in the summer is must on any probe from the in particular sends out real blast of cool air when the ac is on max that lots of glass you mentioned is what gives the car the very good visibility reports you see in all the write ups most sports sporty cars don have that good visibility ve heard that the exhaust system has trouble but mine works fine haven heard about this one know that some of the very early probes and maybe had problems with prematurely rusting mufflers which the complaints ve heard re exhaust system on have been on the gt of course being different engine that is differeent exhaust system was one of those with an who qualified for the free replacement since had already replaced the muffler when received the notice was am due refund from ford applied in february and am still waiting gave me free rental car for the day and half that was without my car was quite happy with the way they handled especially considering that was expecting the worst from them yes was pretty amazed when had my car in for some touch up adjustments this past week and they had to keep it overnight too busy for them to get to it and they offered to pay for rental they did make me pay for taxes and insurance though from what ve heard it sounds like ford mazda had some qc problems with the probe and probably mx when they first went into production but think these problems have mostly been corrected at this point that almost always to be expected with completely new car like this though have to agree that they seem to have some qc problesm but seriously feel the car design is sound and expect it to do very well bill heiser heiser acs bu edu heiser world std com boston university boston ma path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu linac att bu edu acs2 bu edu heiser from heiser acs2 bu edu bill heiser newsgroups rec autos subject re water in trunk of probe message id bu edu date apr gmt references r1crn transfer stratus com r1r4binnfja tamsun tamu edu apr22 news arc nasa gov sender news bu edu organization boston university boston ma usa lines in article apr22 news arc nasa gov chung pioneer arc nasa gov po sum chung acf writes tommy szeto writes water gradually builds up in the trunk of my friend ford probe every once in while we would have to remove the spare and scoop out the water under the plywood carpet cover on the trunk would guess this usually noticed this is my probe also when recently cleaning out the back think the water is coming up through some rubber stoppered holes beneath the spare mine looked slightly worn and there was no water or water damage have the same problem with my probe the water is definitely not comming up from the rubber stoppered hole beneath the spare have to remove the rubber stopper to drain the water seems like common problem with probe there is known problem with the seals on the taillights of probes complain loudly to your dealer and get them to install new seals it is known problem present on most if not all pre probes so you shouldn have to pay them to fix it in my case they fixed it on my extended warranty just had to pay deductable the work was valued at something like with labor and parts having removed the tail lamps myself on other occasions think their estimate was fair bill heiser heiser acs bu edu heiser world std com boston university boston ma newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net agate ames nsisrv news1 gsfc nasa gov stdvax oaddab from oaddab stdvax dirk broer subject re it rush was re too fast message id apr199314371355 stdvax news software vax vms vnews b1 sender usenet skates gsfc nasa gov organization goddard space flight center robotics lab references c5lobl ddw mentor cc purdue edu unisql uucp c5r43y f0d mentor cc purdue edu apr19 cactus org distribution usa date wed apr gmt lines in article apr19 cactus org boyle cactus org craig boyle writes in article c5r43y f0d mentor cc purdue edu marshatt feserve cc purdue edu zauberer writes in article unisql uucp wrat unisql uucp wharfie writes remember roads in america are not designed for speeds above meaning they would be safe at roads like the autobahn are smoother straiter wider and slightly banked well that news before the speed limit on texas highways was the speed limit on the new jersey turnpike was there were no speed limits in nevada or montana guess wasn clear enough here said the roads were designed for speeds of or so and still be safe the current will add saftey margin actually the roads were designated as safe at when they were built in the taking into account the kinds of cars then available the number would be much higher today because the cars tires and just about everything else has imprivoved lot believe the interstates were origionally funded as part of national defense plan etc the requirements were to move heavy army trucks at mph still its amazing in germany you can have cars traveling mph and mph on the same to lane road around washington dc they can keep traffic flowing at dirk newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net agate ames nsisrv news1 gsfc nasa gov stdvax oaddab from oaddab stdvax dirk broer subject re old corvettes low insurance and corvette prices message id apr199315170832 stdvax news software vax vms vnews b1 sender usenet skates gsfc nasa gov organization goddard space flight center robotics lab references apr15 ns1 cc lehigh edu rjnc5sxmg jqh netcom com date wed apr gmt lines in article rjnc5sxmg jqh netcom com rjn netcom com richard newton ii writes in article apr15 ns1 cc lehigh edu swr2 ns1 cc lehigh edu scott warren rosander writes in article c5csux fn1 news cso uiuc edu gdhg8823 uxa cso uiuc edu george hei nz writes after too many years of school finally graduating and getting real job of course am trying to make plans of how to spend all this extra money right now have an accord good car but not real sporty was thinking of selling it in about two years and dropping around on sports car of some kind after thinking about it may have better idea ll keep the accord until it drops and buy the car ve always wanted corvette stingray my reasoning is that accord corvette is less than what would spend anyway basically thinking of late early for around my question is what are good years to consider for reliability looks horsepower in that order believe it or not horsepower is not main concern if want to go fast get on my motorcycle and what are good prices to vettes had the same basic chassis add aluminum weaker rear axle housing all these years used same brakes similar springs etc late was bad year for gm reliability catastrophic converter was added in cheapest corvette to low end about tops out about except for those morooons that think there indy th aniversity vette is special these guys have been known to ask don think they get it best buy convertables got my for needs body work but willing parts for all are readily avail at swap meets and mail order etc reliability looks independant suspension wheel disk and all under and they thought miata was good deal also what would insurance look like male single might wait until to get the car lower insurance would the fact that mainly drive the other car lower it is there some type of classic car or rarely driven insurance class for driving it under miles per year my dad has vette and its on what you say classic insurance basically what that means is that it has restricted amount of driving time which basically means it cant be used as an every day car and would probably suit your needs for limited mileage my origional inquires to my insurance agent can drive my convertable for miles or less per year must keep it in locked garage and it will cost me of the stated value per year does this sound right ve also been looking at vettes recently and found convertible that like at dealer currently own an ford escort gt which is insured through state farm called em up and asked about the rates if sell the escort the vette insurance is per months if keep the escort the vette insurance is per months the escort insurance goes down by to approx per months male and have good driver discount another variable would be where you live best bet is to just call up some insurance brokers and get quote state farm says they base the price on the fair market value of the car which is determined by an outside apprasier they look in the newspaper and call up dealers to find out what the going rate is and adjust it for the condition of the car to get the values above they went on the selling price of the car the dealer asking price is need to do research to find out if this is reasonable in any case told state farm the value was get an appraiser to look at the car he will check serial numbers and look for origional equipe depending on what mods have been done the car could be worth only problems like wrong engine trans wrong paint type vetts used lacquer an modification would reduce tthe value but your looking for car to drive right this sounds like ball park price for small block cu in manual no air car would put it closer to get it appraised for insurance purposes also newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech gsusgi1 gsu edu gsusgi1 gsu edu oprsfnx from oprsfnx gsusgi2 gsu edu stephen nicholas subject re geico message id oprsfnx gsusgi1 gsu edu organization georgia state university references apr21 julian uwo ca c5ui6u ao0 murdoch acc virginia edu oasys dt navy mil c5v3w5 hou news cso uiuc edu distribution usa date sun apr gmt lines glad this forum came up ve been pricing insurance lately and had considered geico but no more any company with practices like theirs can ll stay with liberty mutual steve nicholas wells computer center georgia state university oprsfnx gsusgi1 gsu edu risk is not risk until it is taken newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu moe ksu ksu edu ux1 cso uiuc edu news cso uiuc edu uxa cso uiuc edu cka52397 from cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc subject re wife wants convertible date sat apr gmt message id c5lyyx jr1 news cso uiuc edu references apr16 pts mot com sender usenet news cso uiuc edu net noise owner organization university of illinois at urbana lines nuet ke pts mot com keith nuetzman x3153 p7625 writes help my wife has informed me that she wants convertible for her next car we live in south fla so we are definitely in the right are for one my wife has mentioned the miata but think it is too small would like to wait for the new mustangs dec think anyone have any opinions on any all convertibles in reasonable price range thanx the olds supreme convertible got high marks in recent test if you can get by the stupid body moldings and stuff the saab ragtop may be out of your range but its good choice is there new car convertible the nissan sx convertible is nice car also those immediately come to mind chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu neil peart quick to judge quick to anger slow to understand ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc sdd hp com nigel msen com fmsrl7 lynx unm edu dns1 nmsu edu dns1 nmsu edu usenet from mboenig dewey nmsu edu boenig newsgroups rec autos subject date apr gmt organization new mexico state university lines message id rd7lkinnaui dns1 nmsu edu nntp posting host huey nmsu edu probably the most famous v16 is the one cadillac made from about to they had to scale down then because the great depression really put the crimp on luxury cars it had cubic inches with over two hundred horse power they don make them like they used to there were others though packard had one until about whe it down sized to their legendary twin six their mainstay for the next twenty years lincoln and pierce arrow might have also had one but am not two sure most luxury and semi luxury cars of this era at least experimented with v16 if they did not actually produce them there was actually cylinder war among the big three to see who could produce the biggest engine big standard disclaimer applies because can think of anything wittier newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu usc elroy jpl nasa gov ames purdue mentor cc purdue edu kimgh from kimgh mentor cc purdue edu gene kim subject review ford taurus sho message id c60zbm ws mentor cc purdue edu organization purdue university date sun apr gmt lines review of ford taurus sho by gene kim background last week bought ford taurus sho moving up from driving toyota celica st and oldsmobile cutlass have been interested in buying sho for about five months and have been combing the classifieds in denver and chicago every week bought remarkably clean maroon red sho with miles on it for as far as can tell this is about under blue book and still have another miles before the extended service plan runs out as one should with any pre shos made sure that the car was already refit with the upgraded clutch and pressure plate as well as having been recalled for upgraded rotors and seatbelt attachments however my sho does not have the newer rod shifter understand can get this for from any ford service center in addition the car received the full tune up at miles receiving new platinum plugs and valve adjustment for car with miles on it the car was virtually immaculate the clearcoat paint job was devoid of any large chips or dents although the front air dam molding was covered with lots of small scratches not surprising since most of the miles were spent on the highway having driven smaller two door coupe for so long was bit concerned about whether could get used to driving larger car to my surprise the size of the car doesn bother me at all it seems just as nimble as my celica no comparisons with my oldsmobile visibility from the driver seat is excellent helped mostly by of the small the quarter windows aft of the back seat door windows and in front of the pillar and rear window parallel parking is bit more difficult but other than that love the size in fact starting to appreciate the large trunk as pack up for hour drive to washington dc for the summer more on the ride later in this review engine as with anyone even slightly interested in shos was very interested in the valve yamaha shogun engine was not disappointed base performance of the engine under rpms is good you can even do reasonable launches from second gear although don make practice of this the engine revs smoothly and eagerly tooling around town does not require many shifts this is good since the shifter is definitely one of the weakest points of the car more on this later while the performance of the engine under rpms may be unremarkable it undergoes jekyll hyde transformation once you hit higher revs at rpms butterfly valve opens and you can literally hear and feel the geometry of the engine changing as twelve more valves open up the engine soars to its rpm redline and you are treated to in my opinion the sweetest sounding v6 around the engine inexplicably sounds overjoyed to be at rpm ve noticed that when drive around town constantly watch the tach to see how far below rpm am to go from rpm to you may have to punch the accelerator while torque is more than adequate it doesn come fully online until those other valves are used transmission when car and driver first reviewed the car in they marvelled at how ford had put such wimpy clutch and balky shifter into the car remember driving friend parent sho in and remember thinking about whether had the leg strength to drive the car in traffic the clutch was that stiff that was back then the entire clutch assembly on my sho has been replaced under ford recall in the clutch on the sho feels no stiffer than the one on my toyota celica in fact the friction point seems bit larger and more forgiving when playing with the shifter with the car parked the shifter felt very reasonable the and gates were where you expect it to be and the shifting action was smooth on the road it much the same but you have to shift slowly make no mistake it clumsy shifter when hurrying shifts like when was initially trying to impress friends consistently miss the shift often grope clumsily for the shift and sometimes even muff the shift find this pretty amazing in car like this it also took me several days to realize that you get the smoothest shifts when you take your time seems obvious but compared to my toyota and my friend honda this seems atrocious and clumsy someone on rec autos noted that crxs should blow shos off the line because of the incredibly clumsy shifter now shift much more sedately and the shifter seems more reasonable when you play within these bounds the shifter works smoothly with no surprises don know whether the rod shifter upgrade would help at all along these same lines initially had trouble shifting gears smoothly again slowing down the shifts and taking more care to match revs when letting out the clutch helped immensely this took several days for me to get the hang of think some of my problems were because ve never had car with enough power to balk at bad shifts in higher gears occasionally have trouble shifting into reverse the shifter refuses to enter the gate and often grind the synchros trying to get it into gear ll be watching this carefully in the next couple of months quirk when upshift and the engine drops back to rpm hear whirring and then grinding noise coming from the the engine compartment not terribly loud but the passenger can definitely hear it asked about it when was looking at the car as do all my passengers apparently this is definitely sho sound and is the gearbox apparently called gear rollover replies to my queries on rec autos are at the end of this review exterior as mentioned before am astounded by how well the body of this sho has stood up paint chipping on the front bumper and grille are virtually non existent looking at how older tauri sometimes don age so gracefully wonder what the guys at ford did differently to the sho bodies the body in my opinion is extremely attractive with matching color body moldings than the stock tauri for some odd reason the sho seems different enough from vanilla tauri to get stares at stoplights of course this could be my overactive imagination shos get fog lights more open grille completely monochromatic exterior and deeper ground skirt in the back with sho stenciled in relief ve seen couple shos whose owners have colored these in with florescent colors or in black yuck don think the car is flashy like it that way feel almost anonymous with all those tauri out there but different and distinctive enough to those of us who care interior the interior is what really makes me feel like don deserve the car the seats are grey leather the steering wheel and shifter are covered with black leather and the entire instrument panel is done in black grey metallic scheme the instrumentation is stock taurus except for the mph speedo and rpm tach you get center console with two cupholders large compartment under the radio great for cd player an armrest that contains yet another compartment three appropriately sized coin holders for tollways think and compartment for holding cassette tapes there map holders in the doors and an oddly small glove compartment spilled whole can of coke in the cupholder and was delighted to find that the entire rubber holder can be removed and washed in sink hey really impressed with the ergonomics and thoughtfulness that went into its design and it before the interior was upgraded the backseat is bigger than any car ve had why do they need so much space no smart ass comments please the driver and passenger seat have lumbar and side bolsters from what hear it not uncommon for the side bolsters to show wear mine is no exception the left side bolster on the driver has cracked and not convinced the right bolster is inflating all the way big surprise for me forgot that shos don have normal hand parking brake instead they have the regular parking brake that you press with your left foot too bad again getting used to it but it seems bit anachronistic to me ride the suspension is nice and stiff too stiff it stiffer than any car ve had friend new toyota celica st seems tauter and is still able to soak up bumps better the sho seems stiffer with less ability to soak up bumps driving over railroad tracks is noisy and jarring affair on the other hand taking turns feels wonderful because the body is so rigid and doesn flex at all listened for that before bought the car on the highway the ride is great when drove the car from chicago back to purdue had trouble keeping under mph let alone from trying to see what mph really feels like it relatively quiet ride but the sunroof rattles ve tried to find out what exactly makes all the noise up there but it seems to be the window that rests on the rails no easy way to get rid of it think over the past three days ve oscillated between thinking the suspension is wonderful and perfect and thinking that the ride is way too rough not for me mind you but wonder whether would advise my dad to buy one for himself but ve discovered as with the shifter if you take your time with shifts you ll have no reason to complain let me explain the ride is worst when turning and applying lots of power to the wheels feel the wheels scrabbling for traction and torque steer making the car skitter left and right after understood this avoid the limits of traction and happy camper again it not body rigidity but the composure of the car as if matching the suspension the steering feel is quite heavy my first impression of driving my sho was how hard you had to turn the wheel at highway speeds it tracks straight as an arrow but when driving around parking lot the high effort steering didn seem so useful however it reasonable but it doesn communicate the road to the driver as well as ford probe gt imho it much better than the steering on my celica st wonder how bad this car is during winter miscellaneous notes gripes the rattles from the sunroof is intermittent some days it rattles loudly other days look up wondering where all the noise went activating the sunroof is sometimes very noisy loud squealing as it retracts on its rails wonder if there is quick fix for this again other days it completely disappears function of humidity once made the connection between the sometimes awful feeling suspension and torque steer ve never complained about ride wish the seats had more support under the thighs also wish the side bolsters would close more tightly hear that tires for this car can get really expensive currently have goodyear gt that cost the previous owner for four used to hate the ford stereo systems whose idea was it to use volume paddle now to my amazement don really mind and sometimes think it an okay idea pretty ridiculous though getting up to rpm sometimes seems to be chore but this is no big deal there is more than enough torque down low often goof up the shifting when driving with friends it took me couple of days before could really shift smoothly from nd to rd gear hard to believe isn it my car has almost miles on it my parents noted that it is almost impossible to find low mileage sho astute observation imho wonder how long can make my sho last just bought book titled drive it forever for tips in this department the goofy parking brake pedal still throws me for loop once parked the car in gear and then accidentally let out the clutch after started it the car jolted forward and bounced off the car in front of me no paint damage at all but starting the car is whole new ritual for me with that fangled pedal also began to wonder how strong that brake really is today backed out of parking spot today and started to drive away before noticed the glowing brake light oops the driver power window creaks when closed all the way the same thing happens in my parents mercury sable oddly all the other windows work smoothly likes liking the interior amenities more and more each day the cupholders are great didn expect to use the keyless entry buttons so much but it really is handy you can lock all the doors by pressing the and buttons together neat and you can never lock yourself out of the car really feel like don deserve this car really can believe that could afford it got this car ten years ahead of schedule love this car so much that ve been telling my parents to look into buying one love this car so much that wrote this file meant to write couple of lines and ended up with this if there were powers survey for used car owners would have an opportunity to express my incredible satisfaction of owning this car don like thinking about getting another car but at this point in time sure buy another sho for under you can beat it next time with an airbag and abs though insurance wise this car is also big win pay the same premiums as on my toyota celica despite that it has nearly twice the horsepower other odds and ends much to my amazement there is no sho mailing list anywhere maybe because the sho registry publication has filled this void haven joined yet but ve noticed that queries about shos still appear on rec autos about once month owners of shos are always quick to respond and are very vocal fans of the cars maybe some of the most vocal on rec autos ve put together the responses to my questions about the cars as well as other posts with useful information on these cars ll be posting this in the form of faq soon if anyone is interested in starting mailing list please speak up don know if have the resources here at purdue to start one but maybe someone out there does gene kim genek mentor cc purdue edu newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net agate doc ic ac uk uknet pcl jkjec from jkjec westminster ac uk shazad barlas subject re manual shift bigots wanted message id apr21 westminster ac uk organization university of westminster references c5liw2 cax news rich bnr ca apr17 qurqr doc news ysu edu date wed apr gmt lines the best auto shifters on the street and not the track are those from porsche they wont change if you floor the gas during turn few years back was in sx auto you guys call it sx without turbo and was going round corner floored it and next thing know was pointing backwards the other drivers seemed quite amused shaz newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net agate doc ic ac uk uknet pcl jkjec from jkjec westminster ac uk shazad barlas subject re improvements in automatic transmissions message id apr21 westminster ac uk organization university of westminster references qsljc dd quad wfunet wfu edu apr19 pearl tufts edu c5qpb7 owg hawnews watson ibm com date wed apr gmt lines just wanted to know to wheelspin in an auto you keep the gear in gas it then stick the gear in ve never tried this but am sure it works but does this screw up the autobox we re having bit of debate about it here newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net agate doc ic ac uk uknet pcl jkjec from jkjec westminster ac uk shazad barlas subject re dumbest automotive concepts of all time message id apr21 westminster ac uk organization university of westminster references apr13 slcs slb com apr15 jpl devvax jpl nasa gov oasys dt navy mil distribution usa date wed apr gmt lines dumbest options well here in the uk bmw offer no smokers option it just means they take the fag lighter out big deal btw just bought honda crx f1 its neat did consider an mr2 targa mx5 you guys call it miata but that crx just one my heart with that body kit and spokes ps is richard out there somewhere newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu agate headwall stanford edu nntp stanford edu tedebear from tedebear leland stanford edu theodore chen subject re v4 v6 v8 v12 vx message id apr25 leland stanford edu sender news leland stanford edu mr news organization dsg stanford university ca usa references apr21 ole cdac com apr22 telxon mis telxon com date sun apr gmt lines in article apr22 telxon mis telxon com joes telxon mis telxon com joe staudt writes v6 legend mr3 mr6 honda prelude nope cylinder v8 don know of any you didn try very hard lexus infinty several of each wasn aware that there was another infiniti with besides the q45 bmw one model series several the liter and liter mercedes one or two models one or two there at least one for every platform except the compact class sel sel w124 and roadster sl acura one model can remember the name right now acura doesn have any cars at the moment v12 jaguar xjs bmw il mercedes xxxsl sl and sel the other sls sl and sl are and inline six from tonyz hpwrce mayfield hp com tony zugates date fri apr gmt subject last of the interceptors message id hpwrce mayfield hp com organization the hp mtn view resp cntr path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com hpscit sc hp com hplextra hpcc05 hpwrce tonyz newsgroups rec autos lines does anyone know what kind of car mad max used in road warrior they called it the last of the interceptors couldnt tell what it was it was so chopped up thanks newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com network ucsd edu ames pioneer arc nasa gov chung from chung pioneer arc nasa gov po sum chung acf subject re water in trunk of probe message id apr22 news arc nasa gov sender usenet news arc nasa gov organization nasa ames res ctr mtn vw ca references r1crn transfer stratus com r1r4binnfja tamsun tamu edu date thu apr gmt lines in article r1r4binnfja tamsun tamu edu jlong emcnext2 tamu edu james long writes in article r1crn transfer stratus com tszeto sneezy ts stratus com tommy szeto writes water gradually builds up in the trunk of my friend ford probe every once in while we would have to remove the spare and scoop out the water under the plywood carpet cover on the trunk would guess this usually happens after good thunder storm few qs is this common problem where are the drain holes located for the hatch noticed this is my probe also when recently cleaning out the back think the water is coming up through some rubber stoppered holes beneath the spare mine looked slightly worn and there was no water or water damage above the level of the spare area have the same problem with my probe the water is definitely not comming up from the rubber stoppered hole beneath the spare have to remove the rubber stopper to drain the water seems like common problem with probe po sum chung email chung ames arc nasa gov newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu ux1 cso uiuc edu rs6000 cmp ilstu edu crpresto from crpresto rs6000 cmp ilstu edu charlie preston subject re is car saftey important message id apr21 rs6000 cmp ilstu edu date wed apr gmt references apr20 bnr ca organization illinois state university lines in article apr20 bnr ca tcorkum bnr ca trevor corkum writes was recently thumbing through the lemon aid new car guide what found was car would be given recommended under the picture while few sentences later noting how driver and passenger were virtually guaranteed to be killed in front end collision the most highly recommended small car the civic has the worst crash rating of all of the small cars listed there were many such cases of great vehicles where you wouldn survive an accident is it only me or is safety not one of the most important factors when buying car imho the best way to reduce risk when operating vehicle is being able to avoid hazards and for that reason my preferred vehicle is motorcycle when do use four wheeler my primary reasons are it will keep me dry it will keep me warm or it will carry more cargo if the four wheeler has as much collision protection as the average motorcycle then it has enough form me how do you define safe one definition of safe is without risk is chas dod oh how can you be in two places at once when you re not anywhere at all firesign theatre path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu darwin sura net aplcen apl jhu edu wb3ffv goucher george howell from george howell goucher wb3ffv ampr org george howell newsgroups rec autos subject re the mustang message id uupcb wb3ffv ampr org date apr gmt distribution world organization goucher college towson md reply to george howell goucher wb3ffv ampr org george howell lines the current will soldier on for about two years version of the valve modular in the mark viii could be offered then how unfortunate for anyone who loves the simplicity with which and fords and and chevys can be built up still it will provide needed punch for the ford to stay up with the new firebird camaros it wouldn surprise me if ford called the engine litre in the mustang we all know that the current is really litres anyway undisguised the car looks ok but not nearly as exciting as the new camaro firebird imo must agree don think ve seen anything as impressive looking as the new firebird since my friend back home sold his formula firebird for paltry without even telling me the bastard george howell george howell goucher wb3ffv ampr org path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu darwin sura net aplcen apl jhu edu wb3ffv goucher george howell from george howell goucher wb3ffv ampr org george howell newsgroups rec autos subject broncos message id uupcb wb3ffv ampr org date apr gmt distribution world organization goucher college towson md reply to george howell goucher wb3ffv ampr org george howell lines does anybody have any information on the second generation broncos not talking about bronco ii referring to the broncos that began production in based on the chassis believe need to know what to look for can the tops be removed from all models how easily can that be done also what kind of price range should be looking at what is blue book in college right now and would like jeep unfortunately ve got bit of ride to school and need to carry lot of junk to and from the dormitory in the spring fall think that the bronco with the removable fiberglass would be better read bigger choice than cj or cj even better anybody in the maryland virginia area interested in selling one george howell george howell goucher wb3ffv ampr org path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com darwin sura net mojo eng umd edu cmermag from cmermag eng umd edu christopher mermagen newsgroups rec autos subject re mr2 noisy engine date apr gmt organization project glue university of maryland college park lines message id r4lnninn5tf mojo eng umd edu references apr21 engr washington edu r3oe8 c93 usenet ins cwru edu apr21 engr washington edu nntp posting host multiplexer eng umd edu yeah it seems toyota has always had problem with those and sound know the celicas with em were pretty noisey and the mr2s were no exception now about large displacement with bad noise have grand am quad and it sounds really good almost like larger now toyota is coming out with an all new celica next year and the mr2 well who knows later chris path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu swrinde network ucsd edu ucsbcsl mcl uznerk from uznerk mcl ucsb edu andrew krenz newsgroups rec autos subject re impala ss going into production message id uznerk mcl date apr gmt references qqclrinnftl uwm edu c5ozcy dr1 murdoch acc virginia edu uznerk mcl apr19 ucsu colorado edu sender root ucsbcsl ucsb edu distribution na lines in apr19 ucsu colorado edu dunnjj ucsu colorado edu dunn jonathan james writes uznerk mcl ucsb edu andrew krenz writes personally like the looks of the impala ss the caprice was definately weird looking until this year when they made the rear wheel openings look more like normal car but the impala impresses me gm can exactly shove the lt1 in everything they make you know only the bigger stuff like to see it next in series pickup that would be hot setup what about in full size blazer as well would this engine have the gobs of torque necessary for off roading if so this would be even better than the syclone well an lt1 blazer wouldn come close to gmc typhoon in speed think its too heavy as it is right now the normal hp engine has plenty of power for full size blazer of course not saying gm shouldn put the lt1 in it it seems like they have real winner with that engine why spend so much more money into getting valve dohc v8 when you can take an lt1 it even seems to get pretty good gas mpg for that is talking about impala ss will this be in the door caprice body just curious if chevy is trying to resurrect their door muscle cars or to compete with the european super sedans yeah it flat black lowered door caprice riding on aluminum rims and eagle gs tires the rest of the car is basically caprice ltz read plush police package with horsepower heard that chevy is resurrecting the monte carlo but that going to get their dohc v6 and not the lt1 jon dunn andrew krenz uznerk mcl ucsb edu krenz engrhub ucsb edu xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos misc consumers misc legal path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc sdd hp com swrinde cs utexas edu sun barr news2me ebay sun com exodus eng sun com bari briang from briang bari eng sun com brian gordon newsgroups rec autos misc consumers misc legal subject re legal car buying problems date apr gmt organization sunsoft sun microsystems company lines distribution ca message id ltbcr7inno5p exodus eng sun com references apr20 chpc org c5sydn c2v megatest com nntp posting host bari in article c5sydn c2v megatest com jao megatest com john oswalt writes however if you agree some terms and then when about to sign the dealer slips you contract with different terms and leads you to believe that it embodies the terms you verbally agreed to that is fraud there is no day limit on restitution for fraud you may have to sue and win to get out of this you will almost certainly have to threaten to sue on the other hand remember the old adage that verbal agreement isn worth the paper it printed on once you sign you are going to have one hell of time proving fraud based on comparison to what you thought you were going to sign being in the right is one thing proving it is another brian gordon briang sun com briang netcom com gordon2 on genie on compuserve bgordon on aol newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet bcstec bronte crab rhorwell from rhorwell crab network roland faragher horwell crab subject re dumbest automotive concepts of all tim message id apr8 grace rt cs boeing com sender usenet grace rt cs boeing com for news reply to rhorwell atc boeing com organization boeing computer services references c54m70 el targhee idaho amdahl com date thu apr gmt lines in article el targhee idaho amdahl com rbs sawtooth idaho amdahl com bob smith writes in article apr7 cas org sdm24 cas org writes imho the dumbest thing we ever did in copying the japanese was moving the dimmer switch from the floor to the lever controlling the turn signal cruise control bun warmer etc well my porsche had the dimmer on the turn signal stalk guess those dumb germans were copying the japanese too rest deleted not to mention my friend citroen traction avant with the light switch and dimmer integrated in single stalk off the steering column those dumb french were apparently copying the japanese before the germans roland newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet bcstec bronte crab rhorwell from rhorwell crab atc boeing com roland faragher horwell crab subject re what is volvo message id apr12 grace rt cs boeing com sender usenet grace rt cs boeing com for news reply to rhorwell atc boeing com organization boeing computer services references apr8 sernews raleigh ibm com date mon apr gmt lines in article sernews raleigh ibm com mperry vnet ibm com mark perry writes hardly good reason most us cars do too and plenty of people buy them in the us anyway think the is quite good looking car unlike the us influenced kevinh hasler ascom ch don think it so easy to tell the from any other or series unless you look real close really do think volvo are all dogs though beacuse they are agricultural while previous volvos have been essentially very fast tractors the and series are far from agricultural in design or execution how many fwd tractors have you seen have godlier than thou advertising you state this like it is bad thing remember car companies use ad agencies they don do their own ads are part of renault is this true know that they had done joint ventures with renault but haven heard about their subsumption into renault does this mean that the french government now owns volvo anyway renault makes some very nice cars they just don sell em in america however one thing that do think is in their favour is that they are immediately recognisable as volvo and that is not something you can say about most japanese manufacturers and ford saab also have strong corparate look which like it or not is what thing all car makers could aim for to make life little more varied here here mperry vnet ibm com roland rhorwell atc boeing com newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet psinntp cook sarah albnyvms bitnet pv9955 from pv9955 albnyvms bitnet subject vw jetta gli help message id apr25 sarah albany edu sender news sarah albany edu news administrator reply to pv9955 albnyvms bitnet organization university of albany suny date sun apr gmt lines am considering the purchse of vw jetta gli with miles on it recently found out that there are two versions of the gli and know of three differences between the two cars that both carry the same name the version has more horsepower wheel discs and standard sunroof oops that the difference between the gli and the regular gl so in addition to the engine what other differences exist between the two models of the jetta gli more importantly how can tell which version this one is there are no badges that said so am inclined to think that is the version assuming this one the one looked at is the version is there valid reason to buy it instead of comparably equipped gl which would cost less of course would love to get the version but money talks please email any responses thank you peter volpe pv9955 albnyvms bitnet path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu usenet coe montana edu news uoregon edu netnews nwnet net news washington edu lanmola eliot from eliot lanmola engr washington edu eliot newsgroups rec autos subject re manual shift bigots date apr gmt organization clearer than blir lines message id apr17 engr washington edu references qn2lo c9s vela acs oakland edu c5liw2 cax news rich bnr ca nntp posting host lanmola engr washington edu in article c5liw2 cax news rich bnr ca peon email eric youngblood writes in article qn2lo c9s vela acs oakland edu mje pookie pass wayne edu michael edelman writes the big disadvantage of automatics is the hp they consume that never gets to the wheels in this respect they are at disadvantage to manual only when the torque converter is not locked up there are autos out there with converter lock up in nd rd and th gears dont forget that now that new speed manual trannys are available the drive train is more optimally geared to get the most out of the engine rare so are speed autos but very real bottom line is both manuals and automatics have vastly improved think that automatics have advanced far more than manuals especially in shift intelligence say that smart automatic is better than the majority of drivers in terms of being in the right gear at the right time which to me is more important than torque converter losses prefer the stick for fun and the auto for traffic who says you can have your cake and eat it too well designed shifter will easily facilitate manual clutchless shifts am referring to the much copied mercedes jagged gate the only department where you lose out is in the number of ratios available and of course the converter losses if ayrton senna can drive racecar with fully automatic transmission it can be half bad eliot newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel louie newsserver jvnc net newsserver technet sg nuscc matmcinn from matmcinn nuscc nus sg matthew macintyre at the national university of senegal subject re warning please read message id apr17 nuscc nus sg organization national university of singapore newsreader tin pl4 references c5k9m5 ku constellation ecn uoknor edu date sat apr gmt lines callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james callison writes not going to argue the issue of carrying weapons but would ask you if you would have thought seriously about shooting kid for setting off your alarm can think of worse things in the world glad you got out of there before they did anything to give you reason to fire your gun think people have right to kill to defend their property why not be honest do you really care more about scum than about your car newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester news crd ge com uunet pipex doc ic ac uk agate headwall stanford edu nntp stanford edu tedebear from tedebear leland stanford edu theodore chen subject re sho and sc message id apr17 leland stanford edu sender news leland stanford edu mr news organization dsg stanford university ca usa references unisql uucp apr15 ganglion ann arbor mi us c5l8re constellation ecn uoknor edu date sat apr gmt lines in article c5l8re constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james callison writes why anyone would order an sho with an automatic transmission is beyond me if you can handle stick you should stick with regular taurus and leave the sho to real drivers that is not to say that there aren real drivers who can use the stick eg disabled persons but they aren in any position to use an sho anyway actually disabled persons have been known to drive in scca races be careful about making sweeping generalizations here prefer manual transmission but the early sho had an awful transmission that felt like it came out of truck or something it was almost enough to make me want an automatic teddy path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse network ucsd edu usc cs utexas edu cactus org boyle from boyle cactus org craig boyle newsgroups rec autos subject re too fast message id apr17 cactus org date apr gmt article cactus apr17 references bob1 cos apr15 cactus org qmcih dhs armory centerline com organization capital area central texas unix society austin tx lines in article qmcih dhs armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes boyle cactus org craig boyle writes the quality of autobahns is something of myth the road surface isn much different to typical tx freeway they are better in terms of lighting safety signs roadmarkings etc they light the highways in texas funny everywhere else ve been they only light em at junctions sorry by they meant autobahns not us freeways won even get into how much road markings vary between states and localities except to say that there are some areas where markings are essentially nonexistant than most of the roads here dip in the asphalt that you test your shocks on at will kill you at don get me wrong love to it would have to be quite severe don recall any us freeway without road damage warnings that would regard as unsafe at in any decent well damped car suspect you have very limited experience us freeways vary dramatically particularly between states can name number of interstate highways in various parts of the country where would be very optimistic in any car well ve driven in every state but alaska and drive about per year take long cross country trips any chance get its fun for me and can get reimbursment my job allows me to drive rather than fly not to labor the point but ve driven just about every freewayin the us germany uk and france plus some in mexico which was surpisingly good not sure what you call quite severe in terms of road deviations but suspect every single bridge junction on i84 through ct would be considered so they re hard to take at mph that not the only interstate ve seen with such deviations but it one drive frequently yes but as age of the total freeway in the us all you have to do in this case is mark the hazard advising people to slow to or so texas is pretty much an edge case you can assume that everywhere has roads in such good condition such flat terrain and such texas freeways are varied sometimes good surface mostly flat but i5 in ca is comparable and hilly wide open spaces it just ain so given the absence of other traffic and car built for most us freeways are just fine the problem is other road users and cops jim frost jimf centerline com craig path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse network ucsd edu usc cs utexas edu cactus org boyle from boyle cactus org craig boyle newsgroups rec autos subject re plymouth sundance dodge shadow experiences message id apr17 cactus org date apr gmt article cactus apr17 references c5l9ow um noose ecn purdue edu qn88dinn8vk master cs rose hulman edu oprsfnx gsusgi1 gsu edu distribution usa organization capital area central texas unix society austin tx lines in article oprsfnx gsusgi1 gsu edu oprsfnx gsusgi2 gsu edu stephen nicholas writes stuff about dodge shadow deleted as an ex fleet mgr of cars they were amoung the most trouble free of all models bought one for my wife what do you mean by all models all models of cars all chrysler models all models that the fleet manager had bought because there is no way in hell that the shadow is the most reliable car of all models sold not even chrysler dept of lies damned lies and statistics would claim that craig path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu cleveland freenet edu bz754 from bz754 cleveland freenet edu derek wojciech newsgroups rec autos subject question to nissan zx owners gurus esp models date apr gmt organization case western reserve university cleveland ohio usa lines message id re6hq ovq usenet ins cwru edu nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu purchased used nissan zx non turbo last year had question on gear rpm ratios right now in th mph at rpms mph at about rpms is this about the norm an auto neophyte so just wondering if these are the proper ranges somehow the rpm figures seem high friend of mine just told me he can hit mph in rd on his chevy beretta v6 also anyone know the top speed attainable redline for this model not that would try it but it would be an interesting factoid thanx derek fire and love the two extremes wojciech ossek nrl navy mil that we live between fire and love there more to life than surfing or snowboarding the eye can see guardian ridin the wave path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu not for mail from tquinn heartland bradley edu terry quinn newsgroups rec autos subject re the mustang date apr organization utexas mail to news gateway lines sender daemon cs utexas edu message id aa05298 heartland bradley edu reply to tquinn heartland bradley edu nntp posting host cs utexas edu they beat ford to the market with the camaro firebird but really only in words production of these vehicles will be limited until the end of the year keeping selling prices above msrp for the most part since there are so many twitching camaro fans out there drivel received delivery of my trans am weeks after ordered promised weeks and paid over dealer invoice which is discount off of msrp only have about miles on it but so far no problems and it seems very well put together by the way first year production will be about cars dealers would like you to think there is shortage but considering they only sold about bodies last year and the new model was introduced mid year that is not going to create shortage gm planning on ramping to about bodies next year according to wsj article several people have mentioned seeing photo of the mustang in popular mechanics saw photo of it in motor trend january issue p30 direct side on view although they described it as seriously handsome car with broad shoulders thought it looked pretty boring in that view roofline reminded me of toyota celica yuch description of mechanicals same as has been reported from the pm article terry quinn germantown hills il tquinn heartland bradley edu from compuserve internet tquinn heartland bradley edu newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net torn nott cunews freenet carleton ca freenet carleton ca ae045 from ae045 freenet carleton ca mike harker subject re what car is this message id apr25 freenet carleton ca sender news freenet carleton ca news administrator organization national capital freenet ottawa canada date sun apr gmt lines you guys are correct the bricklin was produced in canada the national museum of science and technology here in ottawa has one and sometimes they put it on display most of the time it stays in storage because the museum doesn have much room it big deal for car to be canadian and that why they have it if anybody fan they also have nice green riviera that looks like it just came out of the showroom mike harker ottawa ontario canada voice newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu news cso uiuc edu uxa cso uiuc edu cka52397 from cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc subject re questions about insurance companies esp geico date thu apr gmt message id c5v3mh hj3 news cso uiuc edu distribution usa references apr21 julian uwo ca sender usenet news cso uiuc edu net noise owner organization university of illinois at urbana lines wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith writes in article mimsy umd edu davew cs umd edu david wonnacott writes considering switching to geico insurance but have heard that they do not assign specific agent for each policy or claim was worried that this might be real pain when you make claim have also heard that they try to get rid of you if you have an accident ve read in this group that geico has funded the purchasing of radar guns by police depts not sure where maryland and other states to the original poster read the last issues of car and driver about this it interesting and should be illegal chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu news cso uiuc edu uxa cso uiuc edu cka52397 from cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc subject re geico date thu apr gmt message id c5v3w5 hou news cso uiuc edu distribution usa references apr21 julian uwo ca c5ui6u ao0 murdoch acc virginia edu oasys dt navy mil sender usenet news cso uiuc edu net noise owner organization university of illinois at urbana lines goldberg oasys dt navy mil mark goldberg writes in rec autos jmh hopper virginia edu jeffrey hoffmeister writes my suggestion stay where you are or shop around but stay away from geico strongly agree with jeff here my horror story many years back switched to geico from state farm to save some have relatively new sports car for which we covered with liability collision and comprehensive with this make of car new models came out in january not september like other makes the car was purchased in august of that year we also had much older clunker for which we only wanted liability low and behold vandal slashed the roof of the sports car and we put in claim this was in october still the current model year for the car new top with installation was we had deductible so we should have gotten you had to go to geico local office to have an adjuster see the car unlike state farm that sent the adjusters to the shop or your place he said since the car is now one year old we ll depreciate the top by so you ll get on the claim this will also count as an accident against you so your rate may increase the hassle continued then we got letter from geico saying claim denied your policy on this car doesn cover this then learned that their records had the full coverage collision etc on our old clunker and only had liability for this new car they mixed up our cars in their records fixed the top myself with some carpet thread and dropped my claim they still charged me with an accident cancelled my policy and switched to another company the coup de gras came when they sent me bill for an additional balance due for the difference in collision comprehensive cost between my sports car and my clunker returned the bill unpaid with nastygram plus explicity directions to perform recto cranial insertion haven heard from them since everyone entitled to my opinion goldberg oasys dt navy mil imagination is more important than knowledge albert einstein good for you am convinced that someone should start boycott against geico any takers chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech emory sol ctr columbia edu usc elroy jpl nasa gov ames agate headwall stanford edu nntp stanford edu tedebear from tedebear leland stanford edu theodore chen subject re ultimate awd vehicles message id apr17 leland stanford edu sender news leland stanford edu mr news organization dsg stanford university ca usa references bcd8b62 ecs umass edu c5l86z e73 cbnewsj cb att com apr16 engr washington edu distribution usa date sat apr gmt lines in article apr16 engr washington edu eliot stalfos engr washington edu eliot writes the price of parts is different story though you can say that again how does for new thermostat sound teddy path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu ux1 cso uiuc edu news iastate edu pi eai iastate edu schrader from schrader pi eai iastate edu dave schrader newsgroups rec autos subject big block keywords big block message id c5mf3f lnb news iastate edu date apr gmt article news c5mf3f lnb sender news news iastate edu usenet news system organization engineering animation inc lines as the subject says it has and my brother in law wants please don reply to me as am posting this for him here his numbers pm pm daytime dave schrader schrader eai iastate edu newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl csus edu netcom com westes from westes netcom com will estes subject looking for low lease rate on toyota previa message id westesc61wz5 ld netcom com organization mail group newsreader tin version pl8 date sun apr gmt lines what the best lease quote that anyone has seen on toyota previa dx or dx all trac for two year lease if you know where can get better rate than month please contact me with the name and phone of the dealership will estes internet westes netcom com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl morrow stanford edu camis stanford edu butt from butt camis stanford edu ayub butt newsgroups ca forsale ba forsale rec autos su market subject toyota coralla fx date apr gmt organization stanford university school of medicine lines distribution ba message id r55jo pjj morrow stanford edu nntp posting host camis stanford edu summary low milleage keywords toyota corolla originator butt camis stanford edu for sale toyota corolla fx am fm radio nothing else low mileage ride my bike to work dark blue good condition only am leaving the country for year and must sell this great city car call renee fecteau leave message do not email to this account path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech emory swrinde cs utexas edu zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu usenet coe montana edu news washington edu carson washington edu gaia from gaia carson washington edu we are gaia newsgroups rec autos subject re plymouth sundance dodge shadow experiences date apr gmt organization university of washington seattle lines distribution usa message id qofeainnn7h shelley washington edu references c5l9ow um noose ecn purdue edu qn88dinn8vk master cs rose hulman edu oprsfnx gsusgi1 gsu edu nntp posting host carson washington edu in article oprsfnx gsusgi1 gsu edu oprsfnx gsusgi2 gsu edu stephen nicholas writes daubendr nextwork rose hulman edu darren daubenspeck writes they are pretty much junk stay away from them they will be replaced next year with all new models junk they ve made the lists for years due to their excellent handling and acceleration they have been around since about oh or so they re not the newest on the lot and mileage is about five to eight mpg under the class leader you can get into hp shadow for the turbo bit more and droptop for as an ex fleet mgr of cars they were amoung the most trouble free of all models bought one for my wife nnnnnnnng thank you for playing cannot agree with this believed this and to put it nicely it was piece of junk loved this car babied it pampered it and after years it just couldn stay together would say that not everyone will have the problems that had but know this it not just the car it is the ability to get the car fixed which will not happen at any chrysler dodge take your pick dealer don care if there are going to reform their dealers service with the intro of the lh cars will believe it when see it case and point the local dodge dealer you drive up just looking you don even get out of your door when about yes salesman all eye you like their next meal and literally pounce on you and try to get you to make deal on everything your eye wanders towards service is about times worse than that had an alignment problem but they tried to tell me that the frame was bent and about dollars of work parts to fix it let me tell you the problems had and took care of this car put alot of miles on it in the first couple years but took it to every checkup it needed and many that shouldn have been dodge shadow es these were replaced within the years that owned the car engine alternators rear suspension torsion bar water pumps thermostats hall effect sensor main computer batteries these were rebuilt repaired radiator automatic transmission power steering those are just the things can remember off the top of my head for about year before sold the car said to myself it good car just can find anybody competent enough the fix it in the end before traded it in for saturn the power steering started acting up again just stopped putting money into it must have put at least worth of repairs over it lifetime am sorry but lee iacocca can bite me bullshit whoever backs em best is just afraid the stupid things are going to fall apart and no one will buy them without assurance why the hell do you think that lh has been nicknamed last hope you can do better and know people will disagree with me here but japanese like honda or toyota or the only american car company that feel is quality product saturn will not touch another chrysler product again no way don care how good the lh cars look good and will admit they look promising but not with the support that you get gm isn much better thank god they don control saturn like they do their divisions or it would be just another marketing ploy don get me wrong will be watching my car which do like like hawk for the next years am much more hesitant to say it or any car is really good until it has proved itself to me but since someone else pointed out as source will note because used to read these magazines that car and driver has never had good thing to say about most chrysler products shadow for one always were they moaning about the reguritated car and engine whereas motor trend always thought they were great cars no car magazine is really objective and although there are alot of people who don like consumers reports will use them to reinforce my argument already know about the big stink with the saturn crash tests time will tell how good car they are the shadow sundance rate much worse than average in fact none of the chrysler rate better than average think the best one is just average excluding the diamond star mitsubishi stuff and the lh you can find bad stuff about the shadow try as might when researched the saturn could not find anything bad about it there is great deal of information about this company just because it is new american company and it has created quite stir in the automotive community for good reason much more than the introduction of any new model lines of any established company read an article which had sub column an think this imprinted on me more than anything else some big wig in toyota said and quote we are watching them very closely come on everybody grow up the foreign cars especially the japanese have been kicking our butts for good reason the american car companies could not make good product or support the customer the way they want these days to set in their ways which is one of the reasons saturn was created they are still struggling because they haven learned yet they have the ability the workers are not inferior the technology is not out of date but their attitude is and they are just finding this out it called competition gentleman women if you don satisfy the demand of the consumer well your out asbestos suit on gaia newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester rit isc newsserver ritvax isc rit edu adn6285 from adn6285 ritvax isc rit edu subject bmw message id apr25 ultb isc rit edu sender news ultb isc rit edu usenet news system nntp posting host vaxa isc rit edu reply to adn6285 ritvax isc rit edu organization rochester institute of technology date sun apr gmt looked at that bimmer yesterday it an has about kmi according to owner odometer stopped working at kmi drivess well sounds good body is ok he wants liked the car despite it auto tranny but my wife will be primary driver on this one and she wants auto the radio does not work untill the car warms up and you honk the horn the seems to have leak the sunroof is sticky but operational odometer does not work as mentioned before idle is bit bouncy going from rpm to rpm wipers are slow that teh gripes the owner says that he changed radiator alternator rotors and calipers exhaust the biggest problem is that the owner is shifty sob telling strange stories hate that would never buy from persom like that except how often you see descent for that amount of money he also said that although could bring mechanicin he wouldn let me check the car by taking it to garage suspicious and who knows what milage is on it so let me know what to check for given there practically no rust know there was an article on in few years back anybody remembers what issue mike path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net newsserver jvnc net netnews upenn edu ssc sas upenn edu awhite from awhite ssc sas upenn edu andrew white newsgroups rec autos subject compilation of problems chevy caprice message id netnews upenn edu date apr gmt sender news netnews upenn edu distribution na organization social science computing univ of penn lines nntp posting host ssc sas upenn edu my caprice classic with miles has finally reached the threshold of total number of mechanical problems that am forced to post anyone out there who might be able to give me some pointers on one or more of the below please mail or post when making turns especially when accelerating there is usually loud thunk from the rear of of the car sounds like it could be the differential what could cause this is the differential going bad recently had the differential fluid changed and it did have tiny metal bits in it and no the sound is not something rolling around in the trunk on starting the car get blue oil smoke from the exhaust for seconds exhaust valves going bad worn rings anyone know whether the valves on the tbi engine can be lapped brakes more pedal travel than feel comfortable with but master cylinder is full and fluid is relatively clear pedal does not slowly sink to the floor when held down pedal does not feel spongey but suppose that bleeding the brakes might help could anything else cause this tranny tranny problems seem to be slowly getting worse takes almost seconds to downshift from rd to nd on heavy throttle application and more recently it is reluctant to shift from nd to rd fluid checked with car running with tranny put through all the gears and then back to park as per haynes manual is red and clear and is on full mark my springs all around are just about shot have new shocks on but car still skips out on bumps in turns at moderate to high speed how hard are they to change can they be reconditioned be interested in hearing from any gm full size rwd owners out there with stories to tell and or advice here in philly these cars are apparently stolen quite often and converted into taxis apparently the cab conversion shops will get junk title for the car or switch vins with car about to be junked about of philly cabs are caprice with most of the rest being crown vic with few old new yorkers and impalas broughams andrew white awhite mcneil sas upenn edu xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech purdue mentor cc purdue edu noose ecn purdue edu dirac bohr physics purdue edu lovall from lovall bohr physics purdue edu daniel lovall newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech subject buick heater controls summary my air vents don work on my skylark message id dirac physics purdue edu date apr gmt sender news dirac physics purdue edu followup to rec autos distribution usa organization purdue university physics department lines have buick skylark with on it bought it in california and if it ll let me like to keep it for another year the only problem is these indiana winters my heater controls don work the car has vacuum operated control switches for the vents right now it is stuck in the vent mode it will blow warm air but can switch the air flow to either the floor can live without this or the defrost can live without this probably could just jam the air deflector to the defrost position but this blows lot of air in my face and is well kind of like putting vacuum cleaner in reverse have taken parts of the dash off and looked at the vacuum system and think the problem or part of it is with the two diaphragms which control up down and outside inside air flow the diaphragm which controls outside vent in side no vent air is cracked most of the way around and the other one is probably damaged too considering the advanced age of the car two questions is there anything should be aware of about this other than the fact that should move from indiana in the event that replacement diaphragms aren available is there way to fix this thanks for any advice info selah dan lovall physics purdue edu xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu soc culture korean soc culture japan rec autos newsgroups soc culture korean soc culture japan rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net agate headwall stanford edu nntp stanford edu underdog from underdog leland stanford edu dwight joe subject market access message id apr22 leland stanford edu sender news leland stanford edu mr news organization miners for heart of gold distribution na date thu apr gmt lines in article apr22 eecs nwu edu andrew eecs nwu edu andrew sung hyun kim writes what about the rice import issue of course it is not closed up like shell but how open is it compared to to us japan is much more open than korea yes pontiac grand am suffers factor of increase in price when it is exported to japan however dodge vehicle the one that congressman gephardt mentioned suffers factor of increase in price when it is exported to korea ford taurus suffers the same problem honda accord costs am not making this up in korea just how many people would want to buy honda accord for solution all ships carrying korean made vehicles should be returned to seoul pronto until as such time as korea decides that it wants to abide by the rules of free and fair trade with the usa and japan sayoonara ooo ooo jinsei no imi wa nan desu ka imi ga nai yo umarete kurou shite yatto shinde shimau semete shinde kara itsu made mo anshin dekiru kami sama ima irasshaimasen ka path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net bogus sura net jhunix hcf jhu edu aplcen apl jhu edu wb3ffv goucher george howell from george howell goucher wb3ffv ampr org george howell newsgroups rec autos subject re impala ss going into message id uupcb wb3ffv ampr org date apr gmt distribution world organization goucher college towson md reply to george howell goucher wb3ffv ampr org george howell lines does that mean that they re gonna bring back the biscayne and bel air or how about the george howell goucher wb3ffv ampr org george newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu news cso uiuc edu uxa cso uiuc edu cka52397 from cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc subject re v4 v6 v8 v12 vx date thu apr gmt message id c5vc2w md9 news cso uiuc edu references apr21 ole cdac com sender usenet news cso uiuc edu net noise owner organization university of illinois at urbana lines ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes am curious about knowing which commericial cars today have engines v4 don know of any v6 legend mr3 mr6 v8 don know of any v12 jaguar xjs please add to the list thanks ssave ole cdac com the viper isn an inline or flat is it pretty sure its also the cizeta is but it may not yet be more than dream chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net agate ames pacbell com att out cbfsb cbnewsg cb att com bep1 from bep1 cbnewsg cb att com bentz puryear subject re sport utility vehical comparisons any opinions message id c5uidn ghn cbfsb cb att com sender news cbfsb cb att com organization at references r1i7minn4n4 cronkite cisco com date wed apr gmt lines from article r1i7minn4n4 cronkite cisco com by kmac cisco com karl elvis macrae just read articals on this in road and track and car and driver is that one mag or two and was wondering if people out there have any opinions that differed from what these mags have to say looking at the following three suv anyone who driven all three have any strong opinions ford explorer toyota runner nissan pathfinder currently leaning toward the toyota cause ve had big success with toyota trucks in the past and cause think it the best looking of the three but thought see if anyone has any strong opinions thanks karl agree that the toyota is the best looking just didn fit plus it is the highest cost of all the ones you mentioned have good friends who have all three of the trucks you talked about the ones with kids all went to the ford because of the room required to carry couple of kids and all the junk you need the single ones went for the toyota and the nissan every one has been happy with what they bought although no one is into serious four wheel off road driving karl elvis macrae software release support cisco systems kmac cisco com or batman cisco com dod fj1200 shovels and rakes and implements of destruction arlo guthrie bentz puryear ncsc8 bep at tsc maplewood ave englewood colorado powder skiing the path to salvation xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu soc culture korean soc culture japan rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net agate robohen from robohen ocf berkeley edu henry robertson newsgroups soc culture korean soc culture japan rec autos subject re market access date apr gmt organization berkeley open computing facility lines distribution na message id r5acf nh1 agate berkeley edu references apr22 leland stanford edu nntp posting host lightning berkeley edu in article apr22 leland stanford edu underdog leland stanford edu dwight joe writes in article apr22 eecs nwu edu andrew eecs nwu edu andrew sung hyun kim writes what about the rice import issue of course it is not closed up like shell but how open is it compared to to us japan is much more open than korea yes pontiac grand am suffers factor of increase in price when it is exported to japan however dodge vehicle the one that congressman gephardt mentioned suffers factor of increase in price when it is exported to korea ford taurus suffers the same problem honda accord costs am not making this up in korea just how many people would want to buy honda accord for solution all ships carrying korean made vehicles should be returned to seoul pronto until as such time as korea decides that it wants to abide by the rules of free and fair trade with the usa and japan now now before we get too carried away here keep in mind that owning any car in korea is luxury that only the ruling class can afford every government agency worth its salt finds some reason to levy tax on car ownership last heard there were seven different fees to pay to own car believe this is the sort of petty bureaucratic inefficiency that new president kim young sam wants to eradicate basically think the rules came into place as bureaucrats from plebian backgrounds wanted to wreak revenge on the ruling class in exchange zaibatsu like hyundai screwed over smaller companies perpetuating vicious cycle have faith that korean people can potentially build cars as well as anyone else but for now hyundai cars seem to reflect the tensions within society of screwy components that won work together stubborn like mule the car either won go forward or won stop at all newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net bogus sura net udel rochester galileo cc rochester edu uhura cc rochester edu jg003b from jg003b uhura cc rochester edu outatime subject emergency brake on nissan maxima message id apr22 galileo cc rochester edu keywords nissan sender news galileo cc rochester edu nntp posting host uhura cc rochester edu organization university of rochester rochester new york date thu apr gmt lines just quick simple question really how many wheels are affected by the emergency brake on an nissan maxima ve heard that all four are affected but this would seem unusual to me thought the emergency brake on most cars only affected the rear wheels also how powerful is the emergency brake usually enough to lock wheels at mph hmmmm just have to wonder about some of the things hear outatime newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net bogus sura net udel rochester galileo cc rochester edu uhura cc rochester edu jg003b from jg003b uhura cc rochester edu outatime subject thoughts on the vw corrado vr6 message id apr22 galileo cc rochester edu keywords vw corrado sender news galileo cc rochester edu nntp posting host uhura cc rochester edu organization university of rochester rochester new york date thu apr gmt lines was curious as to what people thought of the vw corrado vr6 that about it outatime xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu soc culture korean soc culture japan rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu caen batcomputer alchemy tn cornell edu jfe from jfe alchemy tn cornell edu brian chung newsgroups soc culture korean soc culture japan rec autos subject re market access date apr gmt organization the loyal taxpayers lines distribution world message id r5bco t2p fitz tc cornell edu references apr22 leland stanford edu r5acf nh1 agate berkeley edu nntp posting host alchemy tn cornell edu in article r5acf nh1 agate berkeley edu robohen ocf berkeley edu henry robertson writes now now before we get too carried away here keep in mind that owning any car in korea is luxury that only the ruling class can afford every government agency worth its salt finds some reason to levy tax on car ownership last heard there were seven different fees to pay to own car believe this is the sort of petty bureaucratic inefficiency that new president kim young sam wants to eradicate basically think the rules came into place as bureaucrats from plebian backgrounds wanted to wreak revenge on the ruling class in exchange zaibatsu like hyundai screwed over smaller companies perpetuating vicious cycle have faith that korean people can potentially build cars as well as anyone else but for now hyundai cars seem to reflect the tensions within society of screwy components that won work together stubborn like mule the car either won go forward or won stop at all hahahahahaha gasp pant hm not sure whether the above was just silly remark or serious remark but in case there are some misconceptions think henry robertson hasn updated his data file on korea since mid owning car in korea is no longer luxury most middle class people in korea can afford car and do have at least one car the problem in korea especially in seoul is that there are just so many privately owned cars as well as taxis and buses the rush hour has become hour phenomenon and that there is no place to park last time heard back in january the kim administration wanted to legislate law requireing potential car owner to provide his or her own parking area just like they do in japan also henry would be glad to know that hyundai isn the only car manufacturer in korea daewoo has always manufactured cars and believe kia is back in business as well imported cars such as mercury sable are becoming quite popular as well though they are still quite expensive finally please ignore henry posting about korean politics and bureaucracy he quite uninformed brian chung happiness is this sig was brought jfe alchemy tn cornell edu tea earl grey hot to you by frungy the jfe cornella bitnet lake st apt sport of kings cesr10 thc ithaca ny from jimb hpindda cup hp com james bruder date wed apr gmt subject honda clutch chatter message id hpindda cup hp com organization hp information networks cupertino ca path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc sdd hp com hpscit sc hp com hplextra hpcss01 hpindda jimb newsgroups rec autos lines anyone else experiencing similar problem this concerns the clutch on honda accord speed when the clutch is first used in the morning about the first miles of shifting there is significant amount of clutch chatter until things warm up then the clutch shifts smoothly this chatter started when moved to the san francisco bay area from low humidity environment the dealer stated that this is known to happen since honda changed from an asbestos to non asbestos clutch material no remedy seems that moisture on clutch surface causes slipping until the moisture evaporates any comments out there xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos tech rec autos newsgroups rec autos tech rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu darwin sura net sgiblab cs uoregon edu news uoregon edu netnews nwnet net news washington edu ns1 nodak edu plains nodak edu bell from bell plains nodak edu robert bell subject honda civic saturn sl1 info needed sender usenet ns1 nodak edu usenet login message id c61zgo dbo ns1 nodak edu date sun apr gmt distribution na expires fri may gmt nntp posting host plains nodak edu organization north dakota higher education computing network followup to rec autos lines to anyone with experience about honda civic ex or dx or saturn sl1 would be interested in knowing how reliable these cars are how expensive they are to own and operate parts maintenance gas insurance if the dealers are good and if they actually live up to their economy image another question what would expect to pay for civic ex coupe with automatic air and an am fm radio mail to the address below or post to this group thanks rob bell plains nodak edu newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc cheshire oxy edu colello from colello cheshire oxy edu robert colello subject houston auto insurance message id apr22 cheshire oxy edu organization occidental college los angeles ca usa distribution usa date thu apr gmt lines hello am moving to houston to go to rice university for graduate school will be living on the corner of mian and university blvd was wondering what kind of liability rates to expect here is the relevent info sex male age status single commute none walking car ford crown victoria door if anyone can check the above info or is in similar situation please mail me the rates they find out or pay thanks for your help in advance colello delphi com colello cheshire oxy edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net ira uka de sol ctr columbia edu eff news kei com ub newserve sarah albnyvms bitnet pv9955 from pv9955 albnyvms bitnet newsgroups rec autos subject buying used car message id apr25 sarah albany edu date apr gmt sender news sarah albany edu news administrator reply to pv9955 albnyvms bitnet organization university of albany suny lines have few questions about the tax on used car purchase live in new york state and am going to buy used car know that will have to pay tax when go to register the car but would like to know of tax is payed on the book value of the car or on the purchase price also what tax rate is used the owner lives in albany tax and will be living in saratoga with tax do pay albany tax or saratoga tax the difference is whole one more thing how much does it cost for the usual year registration did leave anything out what else might have to know to purchase and register used car ve never done this before thank you peter volpe newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu noc msc net ns brew jmiller from jmiller network com jeff miller subject re need info on porsche message id apr21 ns network com sender news ns network com nntp posting host brew reply to jmiller network com organization network systems corporation references apr20 midway uchicago edu date wed apr gmt lines in article midway uchicago edu buzy quads uchicago edu len buzyna writes hi there ve recently been toying with the idea of purchasing an old the going rate seems to be about for cars with anywhere from mi my question is this what should expect at this price should expect to have extensive body work done what about engine transmission should likewise expect to have both virtually replaced along those lines does anyone have the names addresses of any mail order parts suppliers for everything from engine to body parts completely new to the area of restoring cars and as don actually do any work with cars most of the work would have to be professionally done what sould expect the cost of upgrading to rust free mechanically sound automobile thanks in advance andre true enthusiasts will be able to give you better answer then this but ll dump my impressions ve wanted to own for about years now came close once but ended up buying fiero instead biggest mistake of my life anyway for you should be able to get nice car but your also set in the price range to get taken by nice looker that is pile of shit the most common total failure for the car would be frame rust between the engine and passenger compartment also look for chassis welded together here oh yeah the price range you are talking about must be the banger if you could find one would be mucho more bucks parts for the engine are pretty easy to come by for an old car and you can even locate crude in the jc whitney catalog if you have too the machine itself is pretty simple they use the spare tire for windshild washer instead of pump fer chris sake so getting it fixed by good bug porsche mechanic would be easy since it is mid engine you may spend more on labor for any mechanical work jeff miller network systems corporation internetwork group boone avenue north jmiller network com minneapolis mn newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu lll winken llnl gov iggy gw vitalink com wetware spunky redbrick com psinntp psinntp isc newsserver ritvax isc rit edu adn6285 from adn6285 ritvax isc rit edu subject re mr2 noisy engine message id apr22 ultb isc rit edu sender news ultb isc rit edu usenet news system nntp posting host vaxa isc rit edu reply to adn6285 ritvax isc rit edu organization rochester institute of technology references r1vofinn871 usenet pa dec com apr21 engr washington edu apr21 ultb isc rit edu apr21 engr washington edu date thu apr gmt lines in article apr21 engr washington edu eliot stalfos engr washington edu eliot writes in article apr21 ultb isc rit edu adn6285 ritvax isc rit edu writes the sound he describes is common to any older toyota engine ever heard don know the relevance of his observations about oil changes my simply makes noise not all that annoying mind you but you hear it well when the engine is right behind your left ear think those with mr2 would describe the engine as sweet if little loud those with mr2 can imagine any unbiased person paying it any compliments sounded like my ex dormmate rusty chevy chevette with the would want to redline it just for the music with the would short shift so that it would shut up the new camry features balance shafts guess since the mr2 is getting the axe it is too late for them to do anything about this it is no mystery that the turbo mr2 is only liters the engineers had enough integrity to prevent any further abuses also in europe the mr2 mk2 non turbo was also only liters as usual the undiscriminating american market if it is japanese it must be good gets the dogs to be fair we also got the turbo which the europeans well the is music to my ears often turn my stereo off and just run it towards red line on nice twisty roads but toyota engines at idle have strange bells and whisstles at the bottom of matal can sound can describe it any better just like all the older benzes have very characteristic clattering sound at idle do you know what referring to mike newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu uunet mcsun chsun hslrswi kevinh from kevinh hslrswi hasler ascom ch kevinh subject re opel owners message id apr22 hasler ascom ch originator kevinh nath sender news hasler ascom ch reply to kevinh hasler ascom ch organization ascom hasler ag references gibbonsa sfu ca c5sxi4 j9b news cso uiuc edu apr20 cactus org c5t3b2 dg news cso uiuc edu c5tb2f usenet ucs indiana edu date thu apr gmt lines in article c5tb2f usenet ucs indiana edu mliggett silver ucs indiana edu matthew liggett writes manta are also ve hot and fun cars too hahahahahahahahahahaha thanks for that haven laughed so much in ages kevinh hasler ascom ch newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov ames nsisrv news1 gsfc nasa gov stdvax oaddab from oaddab stdvax dirk broer subject re questions about insurance companies esp geico message id apr199318234160 stdvax news software vax vms vnews b1 sender usenet skates gsfc nasa gov organization goddard space flight center robotics lab references mimsy umd edu distribution usa date wed apr gmt lines in article mimsy umd edu davew cs umd edu david wonnacott writes considering switching to geico insurance but have heard that they do not assign specific agent for each policy or claim was worried that this might be real pain when you make claim have also heard that they try to get rid of you if you have an accident interestend in determining whether or not these things are true has anyone out there with geico made claim be interested in hearing whether or not you were satisfied with the service and whether you then had trouble renewing your policy also interested in any good or bad stories about liberty mutual or state farm geico supports reads gives to police laser radars they have been known to be very picky no sports cars no radar detectors although maryland insurance board over rules this consistantly no turbos basically it seems if you need to use your insurance ever they don want you they once told me they wouldn insure me perfect record because of my corvette even though it would be insured by another specialty insurance we must insure all the cars think this rep didn know what she was talking about geico is cheap but if you ever file claim be prepared to be dropped think in most areas two tickets will do it geico will never see dime from me if can help it state farm slighty higher than most but very good response not as picky as geico path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com emory ogicse mintaka lcs mit edu uhog mit edu xn ll mit edu ll mit edu singer from singer ll mit edu matthew singer newsgroups rec autos subject opel gt message id apr21 ll mit edu date apr gmt article ll apr21 sender singer ll mit edu matthew singer reply to singer ll mit edu matthew singer organization mit lincoln laboratory lines are the any opel gt out there wondering if there are enough to starting mail list matthew singer mit lincoln laboratory wood street singer ll mit edu lexington ma path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net darwin sura net jhunix hcf jhu edu aplcen apl jhu edu wb3ffv goucher george howell from george howell goucher wb3ffv ampr org george howell newsgroups rec autos subject keyless entry now how message id uupcb wb3ffv ampr org date apr gmt distribution world organization goucher college towson md reply to george howell goucher wb3ffv ampr org george howell lines bruce james writes without the key though the steering column lock would have to be sacrificed not necessarily maybe some sort of servo lock or something along those lines could be used to acheive the same effect maybe solenoid type of thing too george howell ooo ppp aaa rrr mm mm ppp aaaaa rrr ooo ford better living through american horsepower george howell george howell goucher wb3ffv ampr org path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net darwin sura net jhunix hcf jhu edu aplcen apl jhu edu wb3ffv goucher george howell from george howell goucher wb3ffv ampr org george howell newsgroups rec autos subject re impala ss going into message id uupcb wb3ffv ampr org date apr gmt distribution world organization goucher college towson md reply to george howell goucher wb3ffv ampr org george howell lines gm has always screwed the rest of the divisions in favor of the corvette the current platform is no exception the detuned camaro and firebird is load of crap to keep people from realizing that they can buy one of these instead of corvette and save about like the idea of an impala ss but if they really wanted to impress me they would throw in big phat imagine the cops in their taurus police package and litres as they stare at your taillights george howell ooo ppp aaa rrr mm mm ppp aaaaa rrr ooo ford better living through american horsepower george howell george howell goucher wb3ffv ampr org path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu asuvax asuacad icjps organization arizona state university date sunday apr mst from icjps asuacad bitnet message id icjps asuacad bitnet newsgroups rec autos subject re mercury villager minivan good buy distribution usa references r8uckinncmf gap caltech edu apr23 adobe com c5ydwp g0 ncube com lines in article c5ydwp g0 ncube com bob ncube com bob kehoe says either choice is good but beware that did not experience reasonable mileage with the v6 average city driving was mpg with about avg on the highway my nissan quest has been doing mpg city though its first few tanks were more like mpg the v6 and at are remarkably smooth johnny stephens sig file upgrade on backorder will be distance learning technology here any day now arizona state university opinions expressed are mine newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet news news world net guardian up edu sequent muncher sequent com battan from battan sequent com jim battan subject re zx or sc300 message id apr25 sequent com sender usenet sequent com usenet nntp posting host cruncher sequent com organization sequent computer systems inc references apr19 ns1 cc lehigh edu date sun apr gmt lines in article apr19 ns1 cc lehigh edu ip02 ns1 cc lehigh edu danny phornprapha writes getting car in the near future ve narrow it down to zx and sc300 which might be better choice having driven both and having owned an sc300 for months now all can say is it depends they re both great cars in fact my wife and are saving our pennies so we can get her the zx convertible in year the zx handles like dream while the sc300 rides like dream fit and finish on both are excellent but the lexus gets the nod in customer satisfaction they re both very attractive and hideously expensive the resale value of the sc is better than the zx the zx isn available with traction control which makes it handful on slippery surfaces jim battan sequent computer systems beaverton or battan sequent com or uunet sequent battan path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu husc news harvard edu kuhub cc ukans edu ids net anomaly sbs com uunet pipex uknet doc ic ac uk agate iat holonet net psinntp psinntp megatest mithril alung newsgroups rec autos subject re geeko waz geico annoyance message id c5wmip megatest com from alung megatest com aaron lung date thu apr gmt references apr21 ll mit edu apr22 armstrong edu c5w7gf m5o noose ecn purdue edu distribution rec autos organization megatest corporation lines in article c5w7gf m5o noose ecn purdue edu rjwade rainbow ecn purdue edu robert wade writes if you want to annoy geico call them up give fake name but real car specs get quote and then tell them they are more expensive than your current state farm allstate insurance they will still send you quote etc then you can tear up their quote and stuff it in the prepaid return envelope and mail it back to them actually they were more than my current state farm rates actually ve had bad habit of stuffing whole bunch of other garbage junk mail in along with whatever else into anybody prepaid envelopes until they almost burst believe they pay postage by weight heh heh heh anyways don tear up the quotes just yet sometimes use their quotes or other insurance quotations as leverage to haggle for lower rate elsewhere usually it works to your advantage if they are lower aaron newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net uunet news tele fi sunic sics se eua ericsson se ericom st83 etxmst from etxmst sta ericsson se markus strobl subject re what car is this message id apr22 ericsson se sender news ericsson se nntp posting host st83 ericsson se reply to etxmst sta ericsson se organization ericsson telecom ab references r3n32innk9p ctron news ctron com date thu apr gmt lines in article r3n32innk9p ctron news ctron com smith ctron com lawrence smith writes in article apr21 reed edu rseymour reed edu robert seymour writes in article apr20 wam umd edu lerxst wam umd edu where my thing writes it was called bricklin bricklins were manufactured in the with engines from ford waitaminnit didn the bricklin have an pugeot six cylinder or am confusing it with the delorean was sure the delorean had v8 the delorean had the yucky prv v6 engine joint venture between peugout note spelling renault and volvo prv this engine is mighty boring piece of junk with approx hp doesn like revs at all if you look at the delorean in the movie back to the future you will note that they changed the engine sound to big v8 real delorean doesn sounds half as good you will also note that every time they have to spin the tires in the movie the ground is all wet this is because delorean can make burnout on dry road the weak engine thats mounted over the rear axle makes it almost impossible markus larry smith smith ctron com no don speak for cabletron need you ask liberty is not the freedom to do whatever we want it is the freedom to do whatever we are able path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech swrinde cs utexas edu zaphod mps ohio state edu menudo uh edu nuchat yob erich lim from erich lim yob sccsi com erich lim newsgroups rec autos subject re militech message id uupcb yob sccsi com date apr gmt distribution world organization ye olde bailey bbs houston tx reply to erich lim yob sccsi com erich lim lines jchen wind bellcore com jason chen writes saw an interesting product in ny auto show and would like to hear your comments militech tm is yet another oil additive but the demonstration of this product really impressive if it didn cheat well heard that militech stuff works pretty good too one of my friends who races in scca sanctioned events and all that stuff got the militech stuff early as trial thing and he put it in his crx he says it worked great but didn ask him for any details erich erich lim yob sccsi com ye olde bailey bbs bis bis houston texas yob sccsi com home of alt cosuard newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net uunet news tele fi news funet fi news lut fi jahonen from jahonen cc lut fi jarmo ahonen subject re manual shift bigots sender news lut fi usenet news message id c5vnxu dxp lut fi date thu apr gmt references c5liw2 cax news rich bnr ca apr17 engr washington edu crh regent technik tu muenchen de apr19 engr washington edu apr21 rtsg mot com nntp posting host cc lut fi organization lappeenranta university of technology finland lines kissane black berkeley edu john kissane writes as matter of interest does anyone know why autos are so popular in the us while here in europe they are rare just wondering many cars sold here in finland are small and cheap cars at least when compared to other cars note that we have over car tax and you couldn expect good auto mated to engine most of the bigger cars are however sold with autos newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net agate ames pacbell com iggy gw vitalink com wetware spunky redbrick com psinntp psinntp laidbak tellab5 ruth wheaton edu truesdal from truesdal david wheaton edu phil truesdale subject mgb questions message id apr21 wheaton wheaton edu summary need pre purchase help sender news wheaton wheaton edu usenet news system organization wheaton college il distribution na date wed apr gmt lines my son is considering the purchase of mgb which has been substantially restored the odometer has rolled over but we can be sure of the actual mileage the engine and drive train apparently weren touched in the restoration except for new carb and few hoses he plans to do vacuum and compression checks to see what they might tell us about the engine the body and undercarriage have no visible rust the interior is new as are tires front brakes not sure about the back battery bumpers and other misc parts the paint is checked in few places and scuffed here and there allegedly by wind blown car cover it seemed to handle ok except for soft front shocks questions are there problem areas common to mgbs we should check out the brakes seem soft and rather ineffective what should we expect in the way of braking action it seemed to be doggy when accelerating from stop what should we expect it to do given the cylinder engine the top is in place but will not reach number of the snaps the weather was cold should the vinyl stretch and fit when it warms up or is it forever shrunk is it normal for the wire wheels to be painted or are they usually chromed given this rather limited description what would be reasonable price gee this turned out to be little long sorry while my brother once owned an xk120 jag what car we re obviously not into sports cars any help with these questions or suggestions on other things to investigate would surely be appreciated phil truesdale truesdal david wheaton edu newsgroups rec autos ba market vehicles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel wupost howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl netcomsv netcom com westes from westes netcom com will estes subject states that charges sales tax after trade in message id westesc628x4 lx6 netcom com organization mail group newsreader tin version pl8 date sun apr gmt lines which western states have laws that charge sales tax on the difference between new car price and the trade in value know california charges you on the full value of the new vehicle regardless of trade in if you are california resident is it legal to buy car in state other than california without also paying california sales tax how does california enforce any law that requires you to also pay california sales tax on top of the out of state tax will estes internet westes netcom com xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech alt autos antique rec autos antique newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech alt autos antique rec autos antique path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet mcsun chsun hslrswi kevinh from kevinh hslrswi hasler ascom ch kevinh subject re warning please read message id apr22 hasler ascom ch originator kevinh nath sender news hasler ascom ch reply to kevinh hasler ascom ch organization ascom hasler ag references apr15 virginia edu c5jcpa ptt austin ibm com neilson apr15135919 seoul mpr ca apr20 voodoo ca boeing com date thu apr gmt lines in article apr20 voodoo ca boeing com tomm hank ca boeing com tom mackey writes you do have the power steve you can do it why don you why don you go shoot some kids who are tossing rocks onto cars make sure you do good job though don miss cause like they have big rocks and take it from me those kids are mean that is absolutely correct they have streak of meanness that runs much deeper and stronger than anything ever experienced even during the height of the racial struggles am absolutely convinced that there are kids out there today that have no concept of right and wrong but have the human intelligence which is turning them into the greatest predators that have ever walked the earth they will prevail unless the rest of humanity decides that it is in their best interest to stand up against these feral humans and for individuals to start taking some responsibility for their own protection in state in which the individuals turn to the authorities and police for protection the police and government is soon composed of the very feral humans that they originally sought protection from and thought the nutters were the ones throwing the bricks from the bridge gee guess you touched my hot button better go cool off somewhere an institution tom mackey tomm voodoo ca boeing com boeing computer services uunet bcstec voodoo tomm box seattle wa kevinh hasler asco ch newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu rpi scott skidmore edu jdrout from jdrout scott skidmore edu jtd is lost subject honda new car info message id apr19 scott skidmore edu organization skidmore somewhere down from reality date mon apr gmt lines from kay honda helpful hints about your honda infromation sheet given to new owners of honda vehicles burning smell may be evident from your new car shortly after taking delivery now own fire extinguisher on prelude mels at temperatures above degrees push the accelerator pedal to the floor one time release slowly and with your foot off the accelerator crank the engine until it starts moe than seconds my note of cranking may be required in temperatures below degrees the accelerator will have to be depressed times door panels and interior trim can be damaged if they are not buckled by getting caught when closing doors when shifting accord automatic transmissions from park neutral or reverse into drive the transmission shifts into rd gear in case of towing start the engine shift into drive from park then from drive to neutral turn off engine what if you are getting towed engine won run if engine does not run do not use this procedure phew was worried insert smilies where appropriate though this is real jonathan jdrout scott skidmore edu skidmore college saratoga ny civic si aftermarket fogs if you own one you understand newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu rphroy kocrsv01 c23tvr from c23tvr kocrsv01 delcoelect com thomas redmond subject re for hail damage record message id apr21 kocrsv01 delcoelect com originator c23tvr koptsy17 sender news kocrsv01 delcoelect com usenet news account organization delco electronics corp references apr19 cactus org apr20 pencom com apr21 cactus org distribution usa date wed apr gmt lines in article apr21 cactus org boyle cactus org craig boyle writes in article apr20 pencom com stecz pencom com writes in article apr19 cactus org boyle cactus org craig boyle writes my integra was hit hard in the hailstorm in austin tx the insurance company cut me check for deductible last week is this record anybody else had settlements from the same hailstorm yet craig rumor has it that guy at dell computer had his miata totalled so that would be about guess it either had the top down or the hail ripped through the top as you could not do worth of hail damage to miata body craig john steczkowski stecz pencom com the constitution grants you the right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness it does not attempt to guarantee that everyone will be happy there was volvo owner that had dollars worth of improvements to the looks of the car by hail newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu rphroy kocrsv01 c23st from c23st kocrsv01 delcoelect com spiros triantafyllopoulos subject re ad said nissan altima best seller message id apr21 kocrsv01 delcoelect com sender news kocrsv01 delcoelect com usenet news account organization delco electronics corp references apr20 kocrsv01 delcoelect com c5uflh p4 srgenprp sr hp com date wed apr gmt lines in article c5uflh p4 srgenprp sr hp com markg sr hp com mark goldsworthy writes just bought an altima and like it very much and yes there is little stanza logo ever so discretely placed on the trunk the altima is emblazoned in big silver letters but the itsy bitsy stanza is shunted to the far left of the trunk lid you can only see it if you get up close to the car and know where to look it is very inconspicuous in fact my first clue that this was stanza was that the owners manual called the car nissan stanza altima anybody know why nissan did it this way to avoid paperwork associated with re certification as brand new car etc so for ad purposes it brand new nameplate for paperwork it still stanza spiros spiros triantafyllopoulos c23st kocrsv01 delcoelect com software technology delco electronics gm hughes electronics kokomo in post therefore armm newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu michal from michal cs cmu edu michal prussak subject re pennsylvania insurance limited tort option message id c63ew2 awi cs cmu edu sender news cs cmu edu usenet news system nntp posting host gs58 sp cs cmu edu organization school of computer science carnegie mellon references oasys dt navy mil distribution usa date mon apr gmt lines in article oasys dt navy mil glouie oasys dt navy mil george louie writes coverage this also applies to my existing car insurance policy does anyone understand what the limited tort option means will it lower my rates if opt to have it or will it be more expensive if opt to have it what does it do for me in layman terms please is it good deal or should ignore it not the type to sue anyone at drop of the hat nor am the type to report every little ding to limited tort option will lower your rates if you choose it you can sue others for pain suffering but you still can sue for economic loss so you can sue for your wrecked car and for medical bills but you can sue for for pain and suffering at least that how understand it michal newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net agate ames haven umd edu uunet news tele fi sunic ericom st83 etxmst from etxmst sta ericsson se markus strobl subject re manual shift bigots message id apr22 ericsson se sender news ericsson se nntp posting host st83 ericsson se reply to etxmst sta ericsson se organization ericsson telecom ab references c5vnxu dxp lut fi date thu apr gmt lines in article dxp lut fi jahonen cc lut fi jarmo ahonen writes kissane black berkeley edu john kissane writes as matter of interest does anyone know why autos are so popular in the us while here in europe they are rare just wondering many cars sold here in finland are small and cheap cars at least when compared to other cars note that we have over car tax and you couldn expect good auto mated to engine most of the bigger cars are however sold with autos would guess the high price of gas in europe compared to the us has always favoured cylinder manuals small engines with autos are real bore but why not turn the question around why are automatics so common in the us my guess is that when they tried to couple manuals to the torque rich v8 in the sixties the clutches turned out as real killers you had to use both feet to depress and that this has just lived on and also an automatic with v8 engine can be real fun to drive markus chevy camaro th350 peugout speed don ask what your car can do for you ask what you can do for your car path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net agate ames haven umd edu cs umd edu dtix dt navy mil oasys gallant from gallant oasys dt navy mil robert gallant newsgroups rec autos subject re questions about insurance companies esp geico message id oasys dt navy mil date apr gmt references mimsy umd edu apr199318234160 stdvax reply to gallant oasys dt navy mil robert gallant organization carderock division nswc bethesda md lines would gladly spend twice the money for insurance rather than using geico not only do they supply radar guns to the police they also want to make radar detectors illegal they also ask if you have detector probably to put you in high risk group or just refuse to insure you know few people who were droped by geico due to an accident that was not their fault rob gallant oasys dt navy mil path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu menudo uh edu nuchat yob donald wendel from donald wendel yob sccsi com donald wendel newsgroups rec autos subject compilation of problems message id uupcb yob sccsi com date apr gmt distribution world organization ye olde bailey bbs houston tx reply to donald wendel yob sccsi com donald wendel lines aw my caprice classic with miles has finally reached the threshold of total number of mechanical problems that am forced to post anyone out there who might be able to give me some pointers on one or more of the below please mail or post aw when making turns especially when accelerating there is usually loud thunk from the rear of of the car sounds like it could be the differential wheel bearing ujoint aw on starting the car get blue oil smoke from the exhaust for seconds exhaust valves bad valve stem seals aw brakes more pedal travel than feel comfortable with but master cylinder is full and fluid is worn pads rear brakes not adjusted up tight or worn out drums of low pedal complaints usually are from rear brake problem aw tranny tranny problems seem to be slowly getting worse takes almost seconds to downshift from rd to nd on heavy throttle application and more recently it is reluctant to shift from nd to rd fluid checked with car running with tranny put through all the gears and then back to park as per haynes manual is red and clear and is on full mark possible modulator valve if equipped with one also could be the kickdoen cable aw my springs all around are just about shot have new shocks on but car still skips out on bumps in turns at moderate to high speed how hard are they to change can they be reconditioned difficult on front easy on rear they are not expensive about for front and less than for the rear its also kind of dangerous to work on the front springs without the proper equipment don slmr put spot remover on my dog spots gone ye olde bailey bbs bis bis houston texas yob sccsi com home of alt cosuard newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet mcsun sunic ericom st83 etxmst from etxmst sta ericsson se markus strobl subject extensions message id apr22 ericsson se sender news ericsson se nntp posting host st83 ericsson se reply to etxmst sta ericsson se organization ericsson telecom ab date thu apr gmt lines was wondering what the country extension are sometimes just don have clue from where some people are writing these are the extensions know of ch switzerland se sweden fi finland uk uk com us edu us are both com and edu us fr france please feel free to add to this list markus chevy camaro th350 peugout speed don ask what your car can do for you ask what you can do for your car xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos vw path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net darwin sura net sgiblab cs uoregon edu news uoregon edu netnews nwnet net news washington edu engr washington edu eliot from eliot engr washington edu eliot newsgroups rec autos rec autos vw subject review audi s4 quattro date apr gmt organization skulls us lines distribution world message id apr26 engr washington edu reply to eliot engr washington edu eliot nntp posting host lanmola engr washington edu it been while since ve reviewed car but today paid visit to an old friend whose love for audis has been so overwhelming that he makes not too sucessful living selling them without further delay will get to the audi s4 servotronic steering for those who are not familiar with what servotronic is it is the name for the speed variable power steering manufactured by zf and used in audis and bmws have been outspoken in my damming of servotronic over the past couple of months and this was based on magazine reviews and drives of the audi cs quattro and the audi cs fwd am quite happy to report now that on the s4 the servotronic is inoffensive suppose that due to the fat gumball tires the servotronic has been loaded up more and this so far has been the best implementation that have tried it is far from perfect mind you and be much happier if it was an option that could refuse but on the s4 no longer consider this to be bad enough where feel the entire car is ruined the steering is still tad too light but it is accurate and suppose the stiffly sprung chassis sends back so much information that some makes it through to the driver hands so there is feel and there is accuracy in the s4 steering but there is also room for improvement consider the s4 steering to be better than the japanese competition primarily because the japanese do not believe in feel and engineer it out completely engine wheee what pressure cooker with just miles on the clock did not expect the s4 to be producing anywhere close to what it will be putting out miles later but still the car packs terrific punch for turbocharged machine it is very unusual in that it encourages lazy driving low revs high gear it is so supremely flexible that one could hardly believe that there only liters of displacement to move this pound car around in such fashion with maximum torque available at rpm and rpm redline the car can pretty much be left in third all day which translates to speed range of something like mph chracteristic that one normally associates with large capacity v8s the technical achievement is breadthtaking throttle response is right up there with good atmospheric engine in fact it would even put peaky multivalve engines to shame downshifts are almost unnecessary it is more fun to use the overboost feature than to rev the engine for those not familiar the s4 engine features up to seconds of additional turbo boost for passing sort of like lighting up the after burners in jet fighter one could with the right foot only in third gear blast the car from to in just few moments simply by flooring the gas as far as the numbers go maximum torque available in overboost mode shoots up to about lb ft incredible for liter it takes few moments for it to develop overboost but it is well worth waiting for since this is quite heavy car one body parts are not flung around like say the corrado vr6 the acceleration is smooth and strong somewhat similar to riding in jetliner as it accelerates down the runway on takeoff also one is treated to very distinctive and entertaining whistle from the turbo the only entertaining sound to come out of very refined but bland sounding banger yes audi has refined the to the point where at rpm it sounds as serene as it does at the smoothness is outstanding but not quite up to the standards of very good valve bmw say that in terms of refinement willingness to rev smoothness lack of harshness under full acceleration it is better than many v6s however lost in the refinement process is the characteristic cylinder bark that made the older engines so characterful if not terribly refined the valve turbo sounds pretty bland except for the whistle under full boost subjectively rate the vw vr6 engine as being far more musical than the turbo also audi own v8 is also far more musical with rorty race car growl when pressed though none of these can match its grunt the only hint of the engine true capacity occurs when one is taking off from rest after the turbo has come to near stop with the extra inertia from the permanently engaged wd system one has to be somewhat delicate in feeding in the clutch to prevent an embarassing stall alternately one could use more revs in both cases very small price to pay for such fantastic engine think that audi of america should offer an automatic option for this car just as they offer though in extremely small numbers speed for the much peakier v8 the characteristics of the engine are perfect for an automatic ironically in europe slush is available but none is offered for the land of the slush marketing twits rearing their ugly heads again chassis ve noticed that audis tend to have very wide wheels and relatively modest tire widths the car comes with firestones of size zr16 which is not uncommon at all however the very attractive spoke wheels are no less than inches wide so there is no sidewall bulge whatsoever combined with the flared wheel arches the s4 has mouth watering macho yet subdued look on rough concrete it becomes immediately clear that the new body style has made significant advances in structural rigidity as well as road noise suppression suppose the two are inter related but digress to use cliche the s4 body feels like it has been carved out of stone flex is totally undetectable even when going over rough roads with super rigid body like this stiff springs and stiff dampers do not cause excessive harshness and while the s4 ride quality will never worry lexus it will also not draw comparisons to trucks or pony cars the servotronic steering has already been mentioned consider it to be inoffensive because it did not inhibit spirited cornering was able to test the car cornering powers without too much trepidation think new concept is at work in this car with its fat gumball tires talking about understeer or oversteer is practically meaningless on banked highway on ramp went in slow and started applying power as went around could feel the forces build to the point where the skin on my face was being tugged sideways yet the car was totally and completely obedient to throttle and steering inputs it felt that the limits were not even close to being approached the forces were thrilling but the entire affair of going around curve is strangely uninvolving you tell the car what you want and it does it end of story think that am starting to relate more and more to those reviewers who were highly impressed by the honda nsx clinical efficiency but were unable to fall in love with the car the brakes have very good firmness to them and stop the car pretty well too though ve read that they are prone to fade am not too surprised since the s4 does not have uprated brakes over the base audi fwd harder pads would help but that in turn would lead to more wooden response when cold am starting to see trend among the luxury sports sedan makers where extra weight is not being offset by additional braking capacity the ls400 fade performance is nothing to brag about neither is the q45 or the legend brake fade these days seem to be forgotten virtue when everybody attention is focused on anti lock capability comfort for car with such sporty abilities its comfort levels are also excellent the cabin is beautifully appointed with carbon fiber panel inserts in place of the wood trim of the s4 all the expected gizmos are there heated seats power seats seat memory power this and that the glaring ommision was the trip computer which was removed because audi hasn gotten it to work reliably yet that means that the car has no boost gauge real disappointment taking into account how much the turbo dominates its performance unusual for the germans the s4 comes with honda style moonroof as well as the very intelligent dial sunroof position rotary switch noise levels including engine and tire noise is so low that wouldn consider the lexus advantage in this area to be significant enough to sway potential buyer conclusion even though few will be able to afford an audi s4 at its sticker price of the car is bargain if one takes into account what it has to offer over the competition the valve turbo is real gem even if it doesn produce ferrari sounds no other luxury sports sedan maker offers the utter security of quattro all wheel drive which to some is worth the extra money all by itself the safety features are also top notch side impact standard compliant the very elegant automatic seat belt tensioners and the dual airbags the series audis have been outstanding in government crash tests it gets my thumbs up for being so overwhelmingly capable rather than being all out exciting and intoxicating eliot newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu caen uvaarpa murdoch hopper jmh from jmh hopper virginia edu jeffrey hoffmeister subject re houston auto insurance message id c5vwsw ec3 murdoch acc virginia edu sender usenet murdoch acc virginia edu organization itc uva community access unix internet project references apr22 cheshire oxy edu distribution usa date thu apr gmt lines in article apr22 cheshire oxy edu colello cheshire oxy edu robert colello writes hello am moving to houston to go to rice university for graduate school will be living on the corner of mian and university blvd was wondering what kind of liability rates to expect here is the relevent info sex male age status single commute none walking car ford crown victoria door if anyone can check the above info or is in similar situation please mail me the rates they find out or pay thanks for your help in advance colello delphi com colello cheshire oxy edu my suggestion look at your current insurance card there will be name accross the top telling you which insurance company you are insured by call information in houston and get the number of branch office in the houston area call the insurance company your rates will vary depending on the amount of coverage you want do you want to carry comp and collision probably not on an what your driving record is you mentioned none of these things in your posting so how can anyone give you accurate information like said pick up the phone and make few calls it won kill you jeff newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net uunet pipex warwick uknet pcl jkjec from jkjec westminster ac uk shazad barlas subject re service indicator of bmw message id apr22 westminster ac uk organization university of westminster references r42j3innlfj cronkite cisco com date thu apr gmt lines derek there is tool available to reset the service indicator on bmws but the lights will come back on after weeks the tool is in fact illegal in europe atleast it is often the case that the unsuspecting punter trots off to buy used bmw and few weeks later all the lights come on other than that know of no other tool anyone else about changing oil every miles thats ok on newer audis they only require it after every miles am talking about an oil change just query do you drive your car very very carefully like no sudden acceleration etc if yeah then the oil change seems quite reasonable but if you drive kinda fast get bit up tight abot that thingy point to note just because the first light came on at doesn mean all the others will come on every too shaz newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net uunet pipex warwick uknet pcl jkjec from jkjec westminster ac uk shazad barlas subject re mr2 noisy engine message id apr22 westminster ac uk organization university of westminster references r1vofinn871 usenet pa dec com apr21 engr washington edu r3oe8 c93 usenet ins cwru edu date thu apr gmt lines just quick note on the nwe shape mr2s in the uk when they first came out here there were models the base model had an auto box and engine from the camry well recentyl found out that this model is no longer profitable for toyota and have since scraped it ve also noticed that auto mr2s have depreciated lot more than the next model up surprise surprise huh oh you lucky americans have the turbo mr2 no such luck over here shaz xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu sjcostan from sjcostan magnus acs ohio state edu scott costanzo subject re rfi art of clutchless shifting message id apr22 magnus acs ohio state edu sender news magnus acs ohio state edu nntp posting host magnusug magnus acs ohio state edu organization the ohio state university references apr16 sscvx1 ssc gov apr17 nwnexus date thu apr gmt lines used to drive truck few years back once rode with an old codger that had been driving for about yrs the only time he would use the clutch was to get the truck moving he could shift that speed lightning quick up or down without the slightest rake of gear he was as smooth as silk it was the most amazing shifting demonstration ve ever seen having said all that still don know why anyone would want to shift synchronized tranny without clutch why do it newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel wupost cs utexas edu hermes chpc utexas edu cfi org posms rick from rick posms aus tx us rick kirchhof subject re service rip off references apr23 chpc utexas edu organization department of redundancy dept date mon apr gmt message id c62ete d2 posms aus tx us summary that the law in austin lines in article apr23 chpc utexas edu ivab015 chpc utexas edu albert wu writes went to place called american car care centers to check my car for leak after checking was told that there is leak in the compressor seal at the end in addition to the labor for the check was charged dollars for pound of freon although they evacuated my afterwards because of the leak first is it fair for him to charge me for pound of freon plus tax second what can do about this if this is unfair albert wu for the information of those not lucky enough to live in the city of austin tx if an auto system is checked and found to have leaks it must be repaired at that time or evacuated this is an ordinance unique think to the city of austin freon is subject to increasing taxes but is about cost here recovered freon is not required to be purchased from the car it is withdrawn from as matter of practice some shops here are charging recycling fee that is less than the cost of the freon removed if it is reintroduced to the system just another quality service from an enviornmentally conscious city rick kirchhof austin texas experience is what you domain rick posms aus tx us get when you don bang path cfi org posms rick get what you want xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos misc consumers newsgroups rec autos misc consumers path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net agate ames pacbell com iggy gw vitalink com wetware spunky redbrick com psinntp psinntp actcnews sun1x bswn res utc com bsw from bsw utrc utc com bruce winters subject re warped brake discs on taurus message id bsw utrc utc com lines sender news sun1x res utc com nntp posting host organization united technologies research center references apr8 bcrka451 bnr ca dmerrill apr14 ryn mro4 dec com apr14 advtech uswest com date thu apr gmt in article apr14 advtech uswest com joe advtech uswest com joe thielen writes xref sun1x rec autos misc consumers newsgroups rec autos misc consumers path sun1x actcnews psinntp psinntp uunet wupost zaphod mps ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu csn cherokee joe from joe advtech uswest com joe thielen subject re warped brake discs on taurus message id apr14 advtech uswest com sender news advtech uswest com radio free boulder nntp posting host absoraka advtech uswest com organization west advanced technologies references apr8 bcrka451 bnr ca dmerrill apr14 ryn mro4 dec com date wed apr gmt lines in article apr14 ryn mro4 dec com balsamo stargl enet dec com antonio balsamo save the wails writes from dmerrill bnr ca dana merrill subject re warped brake discs on taurus anyone else had the same problem well have an taurus gl apparently they still haven fixed the problem with the rotors ve got miles on the clock and getting the rotors and pads replaces tonight at my expense of course tony owned ford mustang that had endless brake problems the bad thing was that it had all other kinds of problems too spent months in the shop in the first years owned it bought new so got rid of it and will more than likely not buy ford product in the future the thing that really ticked me off was how ford treated me they were such jerks it was unbelievable joe in the past few years have owned mustang gts and now own bird sc they all have had this problem there was recall on the bird for the brake problem the ford dealer replaced the rotors and pads but the rotors warp after about miles between this problem and the fit and finish problems on the bird ll never buy ford again bruce winters bsw utrc utc com united technologies research center hartford ct usa path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel wupost zaphod mps ohio state edu malgudi oar net caen batcomputer munnari oz au uniwa scott from scott psy uwa oz au scott fisher newsgroups rec autos subject re manual shift bigots date apr gmt organization the university of western australia lines message id rfg2s jb9 uniwa uwa edu au references c5liw2 cax news rich bnr ca apr17 engr washington edu crh regent technik tu muenchen de apr19 engr washington edu apr21 rtsg mot com c5vnxu dxp lut fi nntp posting host wapsy psy uwa oz au jahonen cc lut fi jarmo ahonen writes kissane black berkeley edu john kissane writes as matter of interest does anyone know why autos are so popular in the us while here in europe they are rare just wondering many cars sold here in finland are small and cheap cars at least when compared to other cars note that we have over car tax and you couldn expect good auto mated to engine most of the bigger cars are however sold with autos here in australia most cars are manual privately owned anyway why not sure think it has something to do with the fact that our car industry in the past was more closely aligned with europe than the us in the past now it aligned with asia scott scott fisher scott psy uwa oz au ph aus perth local department of psychology university of western australia perth nedlands perth joy is jaguar xj6 with flat battery blown oil seal and an unsympathetic wife km outside of small remote town am on cold wet winters morning newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu uunet newsgate watson ibm com yktnews watson ibm com eclipse jgoss from jgoss gaia torolab ibm com jeff goss subject re honda clutch chatter sender usenet eclipse torolab ibm com eclipse sysadm message id jgoss apr22092852 gaia torolab ibm com in reply to jimb hpindda cup hp com message of wed apr gmt date thu apr gmt lines references hpindda cup hp com organization ibm toronto lab in article hpindda cup hp com jimb hpindda cup hp com james bruder writes from jimb hpindda cup hp com james bruder date wed apr gmt organization hp information networks cupertino ca path eclipse yktnews watson ibm com hawnews watson ibm com newsgate watson ibm com news ans net howland reston ans net usc sdd hp com hpscit sc hp com hplextra hpcss01 hpindda jimb newsgroups rec autos lines anyone else experiencing similar problem this concerns the clutch on honda accord speed when the clutch is first used in the morning about the first miles of shifting there is significant amount of clutch chatter until things warm up then the clutch shifts smoothly this chatter started when moved to the san francisco bay area from low humidity environment the dealer stated that this is known to happen since honda changed from an asbestos to non asbestos clutch material no remedy seems that moisture on clutch surface causes slipping until the moisture evaporates any comments out there have been having problems with slightly different clutch problem on my prelude see rec autos tech for more detail my problem is false engagement point below the actual one it also seems affected by weather it is most noticeable and annoying on damp or cold days my dealer says he can reproduce the problem think ll just sell the car jeff goss path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com darwin sura net dtix dt navy mil oasys glouie from glouie oasys dt navy mil george louie newsgroups rec autos subject re nissan nomenclature was re manual shift bigots wanted message id oasys dt navy mil date apr gmt references c5liw2 cax news rich bnr ca r4u27inn5e phantom gatech edu reply to glouie oasys dt navy mil george louie organization carderock division nswc bethesda md lines in rec autos grahamt phantom gatech edu graham thomas writes what we currently know as the sx is known elsewhere as sx graham thomas blah blah blah blah blah this is kind of interesting always assumed that the sx was named because of the liter engine which it uses likewise for the sx which uses liter engine isn this true george path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu andrew cmu edu sr0o from steven ritter sr0o andrew cmu edu newsgroups rec autos subject re pennsylvania insurance limited tort option date thu apr organization psychology carnegie mellon pittsburgh pa lines distribution usa message id yfpel8c00wbna1xjku andrew cmu edu references oasys dt navy mil nntp posting host andrew cmu edu in reply to oasys dt navy mil in my opinion the limited tort option is the best thing casey has ever done basically limited tort means that you give up your right to sue for pain and suffering unless one of the following conditions is met your medical bills resulting from the accident exceed where is some number like not sure of the exact number the accident was caused by drunk driver mean the other driver was drunk you get good lawyer and have good case basically you can appeal to regain your right to sue but there almost no chance of this ever happening you are only giving up your right to sue for pain and suffering you can still sue for medical costs actual damages etc by agreeing to limited tort you are essentially giving up your right to be an asshole who treats every accident as an entry into the litigation lottery in exchange you get substantial reduction in your rates save year unfortunately the insurance companies have managed to scare and confuse people so much that only about of pennsylvanians go for limited tort guess that ok if more people opted for it the insurance companies would be pushing harder for repeal path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu andrew cmu edu dh3q from daniel holbrook dh3q andrew cmu edu newsgroups rec autos subject re what car is this date thu apr organization carnegie mellon pittsburgh pa lines message id wfpeoic00iuza1rn0u andrew cmu edu references r3n32innk9p ctron news ctron com apr22 ericsson se nntp posting host po4 andrew cmu edu in reply to apr22 ericsson se the bricklin was car manufactured by company started by malcolm bricklin who believe was canadian he was the first one to import subarus and later was responsible for importing yugos believe anyway he had this idea that what would really sell would be sports car but one incorporating bunch of innovative safety features the bricklin was built to be that queerest of beasts the safety sports car if any of you remember the early movement among car makers to design experimental safety cars you will recognize the general appearance of the bricklin big ol bumpers etc anyone recall other safety features the engine was an american ford think is right personally kinda like the way they look and if remember from the old magazine articles the performance was only half bad the choice of colors though tended towards the lime green yech but highly visible suppose the delorean on the other hand was dog nice looking imo but no motor at all dan dh3q andrew cmu edu carnegie mellon university applied history have standards if you don like them have others groucho newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net torn nott bnrgate bcars267 bnr ca dwjz from dwjz bnr ca doug zolmer subject re honda clutch chatter message id apr22 bnr ca sender news bnr ca usenet nntp posting host bcarh28f reply to dwjz bnr ca doug zolmer organization bell northern research ltd references hpindda cup hp com date thu apr gmt lines in article hpindda cup hp com jimb hpindda cup hp com james bruder writes anyone else experiencing similar problem this concerns the clutch on honda accord speed when the clutch is first used in the morning about the first miles of shifting there is significant amount of clutch chatter until things warm up then the clutch shifts smoothly this chatter started when moved to the san francisco bay area from low humidity environment the dealer stated that this is known to happen since honda changed from an asbestos to non asbestos clutch material no remedy seems that moisture on clutch surface causes slipping until the moisture evaporates any comments out there the clutch on my honda civic ex ex in the does this too it annoying now that think about it is worse when the humidity is high the dealer also claims there nothing they can do since the clutch is self adjusting hydraulic design yeah right doug zolmer internet dwjz bnr ca disclaimer my opinions only bell northern research ltd ottawa ontario canada dept n61 service control point routing services design conform moooo path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu linac att att bigtop drutx druwa klf from klf druwa att com franklinkl newsgroups rec autos subject re warning please read summary be careful about concealed weapons message id drutx att com date apr gmt references apr15 icf hrb com c5k9m5 ku constellation ecn c5srib ah constellation ecn uoknor edu sender news drutx att com lines in article c5srib ah constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james callison writes in article apr19 magnus acs ohio state edu bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu brian queiser writes anything if he hadn emptied his gun into the asshole texas it whole other country that reminds me of one of texas ads you hear guy speaking in french like it letter home then the french moves to the background and french accented voice come to the foreground talking about how he went walking on the beach and it felt so much like home that he decided to take his shoes off and the rest of his clothes it ended with please send bail on an rec autos note does anyone carry gun on them or keep one in their car which is bad idea isn it if you work in bad part of town or regularly go through one is this loaded question normally have an unloaded colt delta in my glove box with loaded magazine handy which is perfectly legal in oklahoma for those times that travelling inter state keep an unloaded magnum revolver in the glove box with speed loader in my pocket which is legal everywhere under federal law illinois state police be hanged as ve said before this is stricly for defense my insurance will pay to replace my car but only have one life james carrying pistol loaded or unloaded in the glove compartment is considered carrying concealed weapon in colorado and is illegal without concealed weapons permit unless the law has been changed recently carrying weapon openly is legal in colorado but concealing it is illegal read newspaper account last year where police stopped car on traffic infraction and observed magnum revolver sitting on the seat the driver could not be cited for possessing or carrying the weapon because it was not concealed the article stated that if the gun had been discovered in the glove box it would have been considered crime ken franklin they say there heaven for people who wait ama and some say it better but say it ain gwrra rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints dod the sinners are lots more fun know only the good die young xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos misc consumers newsgroups rec autos misc consumers path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu ux1 cso uiuc edu news cso uiuc edu uxa cso uiuc edu cka52397 from cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc subject re what is the deal with blue book value of an auto date thu apr gmt message id c5w7or dex news cso uiuc edu references apr22 news eng convex com sender usenet news cso uiuc edu net noise owner organization university of illinois at urbana lines newton convex com vicki newton writes am in the process of buying new auto haven decided yet whether should sell my current car myself or trade it in as part of the new auto purchase know that the blue book value for the car is an acquaintence has offered to give me blue book value for the car am just wondering if this is standard measure for negotiating resale price or if can hope to get more money from someone else what exactly is blue book value based on know that for its year my car has low mileage it is in excellent working condition but does have few dings on the exterior nothing major do any of these facts alter the fair selling rice of the car am not looking to rip anyone off just naturally want to get the best price for the car thanks million veek think the blue book is the nada handbook for used car prices no is the blue book value given the retail or wholesale value the blue book value isn set in stone though low milage extra addons and stuff like that there can increase the resale price of the car you may want to head on over to the local library or borrow your friends blue book and read up on that sort of stuff paid under bb retail for my civic in and it was in perfect condition and had only miles on it the guy was desparate to sell new kid on the way etc but it was good price remeber both you and the buyer if he has any sort of brains at all are using the blue book so you should pick fair price chintan amin llama uiuc edu chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos misc consumers path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech prism esmlsun gatech edu fowler from fowler esmlsun gatech edu fowler newsgroups rec autos misc consumers subject re what is the deal with blue book value of an auto message id fowler esmlsun gatech edu date apr gmt references apr22 news eng convex com sender news prism gatech edu followup to rec autos organization georgia tech research institute lines in article apr22 news eng convex com newton convex com vicki newton writes am in the process of buying new auto haven decided yet whether should sell my current car myself or trade it in as part of the new auto purchase know that the blue book value for the car is an acquaintence has offered to give me blue book value for the car am just wondering if this is standard measure for negotiating resale price or if can hope to get more money from someone else what exactly is blue book value based on know that for its year my car has low mileage it is in excellent working condition but does have few dings on the exterior nothing major do any of these facts alter the fair selling rice of the car am not looking to rip anyone off just naturally want to get the best price for the car thanks million veek dealer will make money off you in three ways if you let him new car markup over his cost remember his hold back arranging financing through the dealership and screwing you on the trade keep the deal with the dealer simple by eliminating buying car at dealer cost is meaningless if he makes on the trade and or gets kickback from the bank blue book you need to know if you re talking average wholesale or average retail is good guide to value for car if you are selling it yourself try to get average retail and chances are you ll have done ok be careful selling to acquaintances if you ever want them to become friends fowler gtri esml chris fowler gtri gatech edu xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos misc forsale rec autos vw path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net inmet bu edu cvbnet bonvivant alukasik from alukasik bonvivant prime com andrew lukasik x0 newsgroups rec autos misc forsale ne forsale rec autos vw subject vw jetta gl for sale message id cvbnetprime com date apr gmt sender postnews cvbnetprime com reply to birjandi cs umb edu organization computervision lines hi posting this for friend please direct all replys to his email address listed below thanks for sale vw jetta gl miles door sunroof speed black with gray interior removable am fm cassette clean asking please contact abbas birjandi phone email birjandi cs umb edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel news udel edu darwin sura net howland reston ans net ira uka de math fu berlin de fauern rrze uni erlangen de cip informatik uni erlangen de orscholz from orscholz cip informatik uni erlangen de oliver scholz newsgroups rec autos subject pontiac option codes wanted date fri apr gmt organization csd university of erlangen message id r9ojve2rf uni erlangen de nntp posting host faui00b informatik uni erlangen de lines summary pontiac option code listing needed does anyone have listing of pontiac three letter option codes and what they mean thanks oliver oliver scholz dg4nem graduate student of computer sciences at the university of erlangen germany you re killing me peg oh shut up al like care newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sample eng ohio state edu purdue mentor cc purdue edu noose ecn purdue edu rainbow ecn purdue edu rjwade from rjwade rainbow ecn purdue edu robert wade subject re thoughts on the vw corrado vr6 message id c5w7p9 m7w noose ecn purdue edu keywords vw corrado sender news noose ecn purdue edu usenet news organization purdue university engineering computer network references apr22 galileo cc rochester edu date thu apr gmt lines in article apr22 galileo cc rochester edu jg003b uhura cc rochester edu outatime writes was curious as to what people thought of the vw corrado vr6 that about it outatime it hauls butt handles nice but is junk drove brand new one for day as loaner the key was already rusting seems they stamp their keys out of pot metal all the controls seemed really junk clutch was heavy door locks power buttons sunroof controls etc seemed really cheap no way would pay for this baby no airbag either also drove svx for day stickered at but going out the door for much better buy imo although it is more of sports touring coupe roomy etc the corrado is more of small sports car the ergonomics and leather in the svx was twice as nice as the corrado both had smooth strong engines newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net ira uka de news belwue de news uni ulm de faw uni ulm de scheer from scheer faw uni ulm de subject marten problems message id apr26 wega rz uni ulm de sender scheer faw uni ulm de thomas scheer organization faw research institute for applied knowledge processing date mon apr gmt lines hi everybody well don know if this is known problem to you in the big state but over here in europe it is in some places it just happened to me and payed lot to get my new honda civic repaired marten choose my car to stay one night in and this damn little animal damaged almost everything which was plastic rubber never thought that these little could do that much damage so to all you car owners out there is there good known method of gettin rid of this animal except for waiting all night long beneath my car with gun help in any form would be appreciated very very much mail scheer faw uni ulm de thanxxxx all newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net agate ames purdue mentor cc purdue edu noose ecn purdue edu rainbow ecn purdue edu rjwade from rjwade rainbow ecn purdue edu robert wade subject geico annoyance message id c5w7gf m5o noose ecn purdue edu sender news noose ecn purdue edu usenet news organization purdue university engineering computer network references apr20 convex com apr21 ll mit edu apr22 armstrong edu distribution rec autos date thu apr gmt lines if you want to annoy geico call them up give fake name but real car specs get quote and then tell them they are more expensive than your current state farm allstate insurance they will still send you quote etc then you can tear up their quote and stuff it in the prepaid return envelope and mail it back to them actually they were more than my current state farm rates path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu ucbvax hplabs sdd hp com apollo hp com netnews from blf apollo hp com barry frishberg newsgroups rec autos subject re best radar detector valentine message id c5w914 apollo hp com date apr gmt references apr21 sequent com sender usenet apollo hp com usenet news reply to blf apollo hp com organization hewlett packard company chelmsford ma lines originator blf stargazer nntp posting host stargazer ch apollo hp com from article apr21 sequent com by troy sequent com troy wecker earlier commented on the valentine and jimf centerline com replied about the value of the units bogey counter didn really go into why called this feature gimmick so here is more explanation thanks jim for the good comments and opinion from what understand the valentine can only tell if these microwaves are coming from the front rear or both there are only two antennas if they are coming from both this in interpreted as side bogey bogey counts are determined as sources by their relative strength to one another even if they are reflections of the same source it sounds like your analysis is based on hypothesis and not actually using the valentine like to give some feedback based on real life experince keep the valentine in advanced logic mode and it rarely lights up as christmas tree the only time it does is when am in the middle of major shopping area and then it makes sense that is does since there are sources coming from many different directions have found the valentine to be consistent in its reporting of bogeys regardless of any moving cars in the area have found the directional indication to be very useful in one case there was two radar traps set up within one mile of each other as passed the first radar trap the direction indication changed then the detector was set off again pointing in the forward direction with other radar detectors would have assumed that this was due to reflection but with the valentine knew there was high probability that there was another trap and there was on other occasions the directional helped discern false alarm from true alarm for example as pass source the direction indicator changes the directional also allows me to focus my attention as to where the signal might be coming from instead of having to look all over the place when car is approaching me from the rear with detector that leaks can tell that the signal is coming from the rear and as the car passes me can verify the source with other detectors would have been unable to do this and would have had to assume that there was radar trap when there was none ve had the valentine for several months now and find its added features to be useful and not gimmicks barry barry frishberg blf apollo ch hp com chelmsford uk expert center tn chelmsford ma path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu andrew cmu edu jr4q from jason roth jr4q andrew cmu edu newsgroups rec autos subject re it rush was re too fast date thu apr organization junior architecture carnegie mellon pittsburgh pa lines distribution usa message id fphfmk00awu8b2lq9 andrew cmu edu references c5lobl ddw mentor cc purdue edu unisql uucp c5r43y f0d mentor cc purdue edu apr19 cactus org apr199314371355 stdvax nntp posting host po4 andrew cmu edu in reply to apr199314371355 stdvax still its amazing in germany you can have cars traveling mph and mph on the same to lane road around washington dc they can keep traffic flowing at germans are just more organised you can blitz all of europe in matter of what months unless you re pretty organised if we tried that there just be whole bunch of tanks backed up at the border waiting for some jerk in the right lane trying to get over to make left turn this of course caused germany to invade belgium one of the important lessons of history is that anything including late afternoon thundershowers will cause germany to invade belgium dave barry happy motoring jmr sl2 blue green he the most inventive asshole ve ever met he really puts lot of energy into it xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech rec autos driving misc consumers path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc phakt usc edu not for mail from rmakarem usc edu total stranger newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech rec autos driving misc consumers subject help with mitsubishi galant gs transmission date apr organization university of southern california los angeles ca lines sender rmakarem phakt usc edu distribution world message id r6j9linnac6 phakt usc edu nntp posting host phakt usc edu hi need your help with problem have with mitsubishi galant gs transmission the car has speed manual tranmission since the car was bought new while shifting from nd to rd unless do it slowly and carefully it makes popping or hitting sound the dealer and mitsubishi customer service reached by an say this is normal for the car is it and about year ago at kmiles the stick shift handle got stuck while attempting to put it in reverse the shifter would not budge the clutch had no effect the front tires would not budge even when the clutch is fully depressed if the clutch is released the engine would die assuming that some gear was engaged while the shifter was stuck could not make the car move it acted as if it were in neutral except for dying when clutch is released finally was able to release the shifter by having someone rock the car back and forth less than an inch while depressed the clutch and jiggled the shifter the shifter acted normally after that when this happened took it to the dealer they checked the clutch it was they checked the transmission it was had the exact problem couple of months ago and again last week the dealer says there is nothing they can do because mitsubishi the says they have never heard of the problem and the dealer could not reproduce the problem while they had the car in all three occurances the car was parked head first in garage and since the front wheels were stuck the car could not be towed to the dealer before releasing the shifter hence temporarily solving the problem and the dealer and mitsubishi refused to send someone to check the car while it was stuck know there is smething wrong with the transmission shifting from nd to rd and getting stuck at random but can get the dealer to fix it need your help with the mechanical problems and with how to handle mitsubishi all hints and suggestions are greatly appreciated and sorry to bore you with the long post thanks rabih xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu csn csn miranda jafo from jafo miranda accum com sean reifschneider subject re choice of gauges message id apr26 miranda accum com date mon apr gmt references c5ybo4 e5i vcd hp com organization observatory software lines in article c5ybo4 e5i vcd hp com dmunroe vcd hp com dave gauge writes if you had free reign to design your own instrument cluster which gauges would you choose to have beyond the basic set turbo boost is necessary if turboed car fuel reserve warning coolant level warning it would also be nice to have gauge that would cycle across the different sensors in the fi system such as o2 sensor altitude air flow love to get tranny and diff brake temp would be great and big ass tach sean from the labs of balderrama mitchell reifschneider and wahlstedt inc sean reifschneider ruler of the realm jafo accum com newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com sgiblab sgigate sgi wdl1 spl1 spl loral com gwm from gwm spl1 spl loral com gary mahan subject drag coefficients message id apr22 wdl loral com sender news wdl loral com organization loral software productivity laboratory date thu apr gmt lines could someone explain how to make sense of drag coefficients cd mentioned in magazines understand that lower numbers signify better aerodynamics but what does this mean in the real world is there way to calculate new top speeds assuming the car is not rev limited at top speed or mileage benefits if identical car had the cd reduced from to thanx newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net howland reston ans net noc near net uunet pipex uknet pcl jkjec from jkjec westminster ac uk shazad barlas subject re alarm systems are they worthwhile message id apr26 westminster ac uk organization university of westminster references apr19 news eng convex com apr199315433568 stdvax c5w78x m1k noose ecn purdue edu distribution usa date mon apr gmt lines talking about car alarms there are certain cars in this country that are only insurable if they are fitted with vecta alarm we re talking coswoths and porsches and stuff just before they the insurance companies decided to make this move they insisted that the car be fitted with scorpion alarm now they ve changed to the vecta so everyone who spent on fitting the scorpion alarm have founbd themselves having to upgrade to the vecta system sad huh shaz newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net darwin sura net wupost uunet pipex uknet pcl jkjec from jkjec westminster ac uk shazad barlas subject re comparing saabs bmw message id apr26 westminster ac uk organization university of westminster references r7js5 k50 biz ecs umass edu c5xq45 n3g world std com date mon apr gmt lines dont know about saabs but whenever there is long temr tset in magazine they always say that tehy re are little annoying niggles which keep on occuring every so often wouldn expect that from such quality car why doesn anything like this ever happen on bmws maybe coz they re quality cars shrugs repentently shaz newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net darwin sura net howland reston ans net noc near net uunet pipex uknet pcl jkjec from jkjec westminster ac uk shazad barlas subject re lexus and infiniti message id apr26 westminster ac uk organization university of westminster references apr23 wdl loral com date mon apr gmt lines yeah and bmw has litres btw can someone out there please tell me how to put someone else file on and then reply to that so the other person file and my own reply go to the newgroups together ps just mail me personally thanx in advance path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu swrinde gatech clampman gatech edu user from chuck lampman gstrf gatech edu chuck lampman newsgroups rec autos subject re warning please read followup to rec autos rec autos tech alt autos antique rec autos antique date apr gmt organization gstrf lines distribution usa message id chuck lampman clampman gatech edu references qh336innfl5 cs utk edu c5joit e31 bcstec ca boeing com apr20 voodoo ca boeing com apr22 is morgan com nntp posting host clampman gatech edu enough already let take this discussion to some other newsgroup that more appropriate most of us are tired of it and would like to get back to old cars imho chuck lampman chuck lampman gstrf gatech edu newsgroups nj general rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu gatech swrinde sgiblab sgigate sgi wdl1 mail sps204 mcculloc from mcculloc sps204 lds loral com thad mcculloch subject re autos dealer message id apr22 lds loral com keywords buying car sender news lds loral com organization loral data systems references apr22 porthos cc bellcore com distribution nj date thu apr gmt lines in article apr22 porthos cc bellcore com tvl prefect cc bellcore com lam thanh writes got price quote of for camry v6 abs from toyota dealer in eatontown came back to that dealer in two weeks to sign purchase agreement then was told that the salesperson made an error in pricing walked out of that dealer wonder if this kind of practice is common with toyota dealers is the price quote written on the salesperson business card binding would appricate any comments had similar experience we had written quote which had been mailed to us from the salesman at one of these no haggle toyota dealers for camry xle abs leather etc the price seemed fair but when we went in to take them up on their offer they discovered that certain extra cost items hadn been included in their original written quote it would have totaled an extra and in spite of the fact that we had written quote they said there was nothing they could do bottom line quotes from salemen are worthless and it appears to me that the toyota dealers think they ve got such superior auto that they don have to deal we walked went out and bought new lh car eagle vision tsi and don regret it one bit thad mcculloch mcculloc mail lds loral com newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu sdd hp com sgiblab sono guo from guo acuson com xiaocong guo subject re toyota land cruiser worth it message id apr22 acuson com organization acuson mountain view california references iftccu ca boeing com r3sbbinn8e0 hp col col hp com date thu apr gmt lines tvervaek col hp com tom vervaeke writes my wife and looked at and drove one last fall this was model it was wayyyyyyyyy underpowered could not imagine driving it in the mountains here in colorado at anything approaching highway speeds have read that the new models have newer improved hp engine quite serious that laughed in the salesman face when he said once it broken in it will feel more powerful had been used to driving jeep hp engine believe the land cruisers land yachts were the sames as the runner which is also underpowered in my own personal opinion they are big cars very roomy but nothing spectacular tom vervaeke email tvervaek cs itc hp com hewlett packard co phone love animals they taste delicious the land cruiser has l6 engine which has hp and torgue when drove it here in california power is more than enough the high price is the only reason did not buy it newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu asuvax ennews mcdphx schbbs mothost white sapphire rtsg mot com opal12 nataraja from nataraja rtsg mot com kumaravel natarajan subject re dirty diesels message id nataraja opal12 sender news rtsg mot com nntp posting host opal12 organization motorola inc cellular infrastructure group references nataraja opal12 ceylon gte com distribution na date thu apr gmt lines hhd0 harvey gte com horace dediu writes in article nataraja opal12 nataraja rtsg mot com kumaravel natarajan writes heard the diesels are considered cleaner burning than gas engines because the emit less of carbon monoxide hydrocarbons and oxides of nitrogen co hc nox but they can put out lot of particulate matter heard something about legislation being discussed to clean up diesel emissions is there anything in the works to install scrubbers for diesels how about the feasibility of installing them on trucks and cars would it be any different than catylitic converter assume easier since we re removing particulate matter instead of converting gasses let hear people opinions this really bugs me the emissions of diesels are the cleanest of any vechicle but they are considered so polluting that they are banned in passenger cars in california what bunch of crap diesel is the fuel of choice for enviromental benefit in europe while here it illegal for the same reason the particulates are nothing but carbon they are just an annoyance at worst nothing beats the diesel cycle for efficiency and emissions torque or engine durability it also cheaper just to clear things up as to why posted the question that way was debating with co worker about diesels claimed they were cleaner burning than gas engines he said the extra junk put out by them was offset by the savings in greenhouse gasses made all the same claims you did but one question of his was what about the carbon said it was harmless but he wanted to know how to get rid of it suggested scrubbers figured it would be no harder or more expensive to install than cats does there exist any designs for scrubber like to know just to answer his final question convinced him that diesels are cleaner otherwise btw named my subject dirty diesels because knew it would get reaction out of people who knew they were cleaner than gas engines and that they read it vel natarajan nataraja rtsg mot com motorola cellular arlington hts il path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu usenet coe montana edu news washington edu spiff seattleu edu sumax seattleu edu not for mail from smorris sumax seattleu edu steven morris newsgroups rec autos subject re v4 v6 v8 v12 vx date apr organization addiction studies program seattle university lines message id r6kcqinnhmp sumax seattleu edu references apr21 ole cdac com c5uwoj bt usenet ucs indiana edu bd5ed9f news service uci edu nntp posting host sumax seattleu edu remove legend from the list it steve morris internet smorris sumax seattleu edu addiction studies pgm uucp uw beaver uunet gtenmc dataio sumax smorris seattle university phone dept or direct seattle wa path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet opel johnk from johnk opel secondsource com john kennedy newsgroups rec autos subject diatribe on us sold opels was re opel owners message id opel secondsource com date apr gmt references gibbonsa sfu ca c5sxi4 j9b news cso uiuc edu apr20 cactus org reply to johnk secondsource com john kennedy organization second source inc annapolis md lines gibbonsa fraser sfu ca darren gibbons writes looking for information on opel cars now you ask which model well the sad truth is not entirely sure but it two seater with roll over headlights hard top and really sporty looking my friend has one sitting in his yard in really nice condition body wise but he transmission has seized up on him so it hasn run for while does anyone have any info on these cars the engine compartment looks really tight to work on but it is in fine shape and am quite interested in it that would be the opel gt sold in this country from to it originally had cc engine which was later replaced by the cc it was based on the old kadett drive train and suspension with leaf springs in the rear and single transverse leaf spring in the front it looked good but was limited as performer there has also been some discussion in this thread about the manta and other models in opel introduced new line of models the series that were also known as model numbers etc these cars had the newer cc engine and were available as two and four door coupes station wagon and sport coupe known in europe as the manta at the same time there were two series cars which sold very few numbers that also had the engine but the kadett suspension the sport coupe model was also available as the rallye with blacked out hood tach and fog lights but was mechanically the same except for numerically higher rear end ratio in the sport coupe was also named the manta in the us was the last year for the gt in any country both because of the us bumper height regulations and the fact that fiat exercised an option on the factory that opel was leasing to build the gts the series continued in with minor body differences in the manta sedan also called the ascona and the wagon were available with bosch electronic fuel injection these cars also had larger brakes and wider wheels these cars were starting to compete with the buick century low price leader of the time and were the last opels imported into the us from to cars that sported buick opel badges were still sold by the buick dealers but were rebadged isuzu marks the idea was to call them opels instead of changing the dealers neon signs various models of the series cars dominated the showroom stock racing of the in their class and were known as serious competition parts are still available from number of sources still have manta and two sedans and all the trick parts could collect in years john kennedy uunet opel johnk second source inc johnk secondsource com annapolis md newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net news feed peachnet edu gatech howland reston ans net wupost uunet mdisea johnny5 dyndata dynasty dan from dan dyndata uucp dan everhart subject honda headrest stuck advice please reply to dan dyndata com organization dynamic data electronics distribution rec date sun apr gmt message id dan apr25145954 dynasty dyndata uucp sender dan dyndata uucp dan everhart lines an aquaintence has accord the driver side headrest was accidentally put in backwards and has jammed according to the dealer the only way to get it out is to spend several hours disassembling the seat this is the second time have heard of this happening and wonder whether there an easier way to get the headrest back out has anyone else ever dealt with this problem your advice would be appreciated please email and will summarize if there is interest dan dyndata com dan everhart uunet camco fluke dyndata dan fax th st sw dynamic data electronics edmonds wa usa rhe rone rike rhe rone rike rhorane astro sings cocaine path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu ames data nas nasa gov taligent apple com apple com not for mail from chmilar apple com michael chmilar newsgroups rec autos subject re mbenz series vw passat date apr organization apple computer inc cupertino california lines message id r6lk6 pau apple com references emoryu1 cc emory edu nntp posting host apple com jcorry erasure sl cc emory edu jeremy corry writes new series mercedes benz wagon particularly would like to hear about power manual only any comparisons between the saab line and the mercedes would be helpful if manual transmission is must have then the te is not in the running you cannot get manual transmission in that car in north america it seems that buyers here or maybe more accurately the distributors are not interested in manual trannies the line comes with hp engine all earlier years are hp have an with mere hp and auto tranny and find that it has sufficient power for any normal driving situation more is always nice but can complain test drove saab cse last fall here are my impressions awesome power especially over rpm when the turbo really comes on if you get on the power really hard in tight corner the front wheel drive causes it to understeer heavily and then viciously hook into the corner not desirable handling trait but common in powerful front drive cars the cse is hp mercedes is rear drive so it does not have this problem huge interior and cargo space the most rubbery shifter have ever encountered drove spd it was absolutely numb you might be able to get used to it don know also didn like its location which was too far down and too far right from the shifter position got the impression that saab really designed the car for an automatic it was rather noisy engine buzz rattles and creaks mercedes does not exhibit these characteristics you should also check out the new bmw touring this is wagon version of the it fits into the class with the te and saabs michael chmilar chmilar apple com xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos misc consumers path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov alan from alan elroy jpl nasa gov alan mazer newsgroups rec autos misc consumers subject re what is the deal with blue book value of an auto date apr gmt organization image analysis systems group jpl lines distribution na message id r6mt8innsfi elroy jpl nasa gov nntp posting host cogswell jpl nasa gov mail bounced so in article apr22 news eng convex com you write am in the process of buying new auto haven decided yet whether should sell my current car myself or trade it in as part of the new auto purchase traditional wisdom says you are almost certainly better off selling it yourself if you don mind that extra hassle having trade in on purchase just makes getting the best price from dealership more confusing know that the blue book value for the car is assume this is retail bluebook there are two bluebook prices one for retail and one for wholesale you really want the retail price if you can get it the blue books also have adjustments you can make for low mileage and extras on your particular car you should look all this stuff up yourself also keep in mind that the blue book prices are averages over the country that may not apply in your area for example blue book prices are low for california better way of finding out how much your car might be worth is to call around and see what it selling for if any used lots have one or looking in local papers for similar cars and checking out the prices it might be more time efficient to take small loss rather than hold out for months for the best price an acquaintence has offered to give me blue book value for the car don know what you mean by an acquaintance but would make darn sure that was paid that is cashier check in full before delivery there real temptation when selling to pseudo friend to be more accomodating than you should make sure you get the money and if they hedge about paying in full at the start with cashier check or cash then would go elsewhere rememeber that you can probably sell your car to used car lot or wholesaler and get wholesale bluebook that probably safer approach than selling to private party alan mountain dew and doughnuts ames elroy alan because breakfast is the most important meal alan elroy jpl nasa gov of the day path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet lhdsy1 nntpserver chevron com usho0b hou281 chevron com hhtra from hhtra usho0b hou281 chevron com haddock newsgroups rec autos subject re questions about insurance companies esp geico message id apr22 usho0b hou281 chevron com date apr gmt references mimsy umd edu sender news nntpserver chevron com usenet news system distribution usa organization chevron lines in article mimsy umd edu davew cs umd edu david wonnacott writes considering switching to geico insurance but have heard that they do not assign specific agent for each policy or claim was worried that this might be real pain when you make claim have also heard that they try to get rid of you if you have an accident interestend in determining whether or not these things are true has anyone out there with geico made claim be interested in hearing whether or not you were satisfied with the service and whether you then had trouble renewing your policy also interested in any good or bad stories about liberty mutual or state farm stay away from geico recent car driver issue has an article about geico giving free laser guns to police departments to increase they re speed limit enforcement the article also said that if you get speeding ticket your premium will increase dramatically based on how much over the limit you were if remember correctly at more than over you ll get something like increase if you have radar detector you will be denied coverage or dropped immediately one accident claim and you will be dropped after many years with geico my father who had tickets and had made claims had an accident and filed an claim he was dropped immediately since then he has been with state farm for years with no complaints have been with state farm for about years no complaints travis path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu sol ctr columbia edu eff news kei com ub dsinc gvls1 sdosrv2 yavo from yavo sdosrv2 gvl unisys com steve yavorski newsgroups rec autos subject re mercury villager minivan good buy message id apr26 vfl paramax com date apr gmt references r8uckinncmf gap caltech edu apr23 adobe com c5ydwp g0 ncube com sender news vfl paramax com iee news user followup to rec autos distribution usa organization paramax systems ivyland pa lines nntp posting host sdosrv2 ivy paramax com in article c5ydwp g0 ncube com bob ncube com bob kehoe writes curiously and consider these are test vehicles found the mercury higher in build quality than the nissan this is very curious being that they are both built by mercury in the very same factory steve stephen yavorski internet yavo ivy paramax com nexrad integration phone paramax systems corporation ivyland pennsylvania newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu msuinfo uchinews iitmax elof iit edu petebre from petebre elof iit edu brent peterson subject re drag coefficients message id apr22 iitmax iit edu sender news iitmax iit edu news organization illinois institute of technology chicago references apr22 wdl loral com date thu apr gmt lines in article apr22 wdl loral com gwm spl1 spl loral com gary mahan writes could someone explain how to make sense of drag coefficients cd mentioned in magazines understand that lower numbers signify better aerodynamics but what does this mean in the real world is there way to calculate new top speeds assuming the car is not rev limited at top speed or mileage benefits if identical car had the cd reduced from to don remember the formula off hand as it has been awhile since took aerodynamics and haven used the stuff since the cd is related to the drag force which is what effects top speed and fuel consumption when the drag force on the car or aircraft is greater than what the vehicle engine can overcome it has reached its top speed autos of course also have to overcome rolling resistance since drag opposes the vehicle motion the engine must make up for that by burning more fuel anyway since the geometery of an auto is rather complex the drag pressure coeffiecent etc is either found experimentaly or using numerical method anyway for flow around cylinder the drag coeff is cd where is the drag force the flow velocity and is the radius of the clyinder to get rough very rough estimate you can set at the car width at the car speed and knowing the cd find the drag force that the car would need to overcome bp xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos misc consumers newsgroups rec autos misc consumers path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet mnemosyne cs du edu nyx chellis from chellis nyx cs du edu charles ellis subject re what is the deal with blue book value of an auto message id apr22 mnemosyne cs du edu sender usenet mnemosyne cs du edu netnews admin account organization university of denver dept of math comp sci references apr22 news eng convex com c5w7or dex news cso uiuc edu date thu apr gmt lines it toll for insurance companies and auto dealers to rip you off in case of accident or trade in charlie ellis chellis nyx cs du edu charlie ellis chellis nyx cs du edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester news bbn com noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu menudo uh edu jpunix mwk cutting david bonds newsgroups rec autos subject review ford taurus sho message id uupcb cutting hou tx us from david bonds cutting hou tx us david bonds date apr gmt reply to david bonds cutting hou tx us david bonds distribution world organization the cutting edge houston tx lines gk occasionally have trouble shifting into reverse the shifter gk refuses to enter the gate and often grind the synchros trying to gk get it into gear ll be watching this carefully in the next couple gk of months enter st wait seconds and then go into reverse they use the same synchros and you ll never at least haven ground em to fit when using this technique the cutting edge bbs cutting hou tx us pcboard system houston texas usa running uupcb path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester news bbn com noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu menudo uh edu jpunix mwk cutting david bonds newsgroups rec autos subject review ford taurus sho message id uupcb cutting hou tx us from david bonds cutting hou tx us david bonds date apr gmt reply to david bonds cutting hou tx us david bonds distribution world organization the cutting edge houston tx lines gk hear that tires for this car can get really expensive gk currently have goodyear gt that cost the previous owner gk for four try eagle gas wear better cost less lose little handling and are quieter going to switch to in my next set with new rims fitti twists if can afford em by the time my gas wear out gk is whole new ritual for me with that fangled pedal also began gk to wonder how strong that brake really is today backed out of gk parking spot today and started to drive away before noticed gk the glowing brake light oops mine is strong enough to not let the car move when it in even if you re giving it enough gas to normally move it in st you might need brake adjustment gk the driver power window creaks when closed all the way the same gk thing happens in my parents mercury sable oddly all the gk other windows work smoothly watch it closely the glass actually flexes from the torque in the motor it seems stronger in the drivers window then the others gk liking the interior amenities more and more each day the gk cupholders are great ve found the location under the armrest in between the seats to be pain but like having them they moved it into the dash pop out in the model year much better gk really feel like don deserve this car really can gk believe that could afford it got this car ten years gk ahead of schedule did the same thing got black with miles on it for in july gk ve put together the responses to my questions about the cars as gk well as other posts with useful information on these cars ll be gk posting this in the form of faq soon grabbed it and archived it thanks gk if anyone is interested in starting mailing list please speak up gk don know if have the resources here at purdue to start one but gk maybe someone out there does ll be starting one this summer one way or the other current software use dosen support mailing lists but is on the rsn list if not going to upgrade to another package that does have it that is if nobody else beats me to it will make an announcement here when it goes up the cutting edge bbs cutting hou tx us pcboard system houston texas usa running uupcb newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet spsgate mogate newsgate newswatcher user from rzaa80 email sps mot com jim chott subject re re toyota land cruiser worth it message id rzaa80 followup to rec autos sender usenet newsgate sps mot com nntp posting host organization major semiconductor company references c5qo1j j7g cup hp com iftccu ca boeing com date thu apr gmt lines in article iftccu ca boeing com hovnania iftccu ca boeing com paul hovnanian wrote based on my experience with fj40 the hard top jeep style model would definitely give new model consideration if were in the market the older models are very well built unless toyota lost its mind would assume until proven otherwise that the newer models have inherited some if not all of the qualities of their ancestors two major differences in the running gear that aware of need study my has solid front axle housing whereas the newer models have independant front suspension the solid axle is theoretically stronger and the new cruisers do not have independent suspension in the front they still run straight axle but with coils the runner is the one with independent front the cruisers have incredible wheel travel with this system more reliable than the newer model but only experience will tell the independant front suspension is no doubt compromise made to satisfy the typical user who will never need real utility vehicle the second difference is the type of transfer case used on the newer models not sure but think tioyota went to full time wd or all wheel drive system the older landcruisers have lock up type both have their advantages and disadvantages the up cruiser does have full time wd but the center diff locks in low range my brother has and is an incredibly sturdy vehicle which has done all the trails in moab without tow the and later is even better with the bigger engine and locking diffs jim chott toyota wd pickup rzaa80 email sps mot com lemans sport convertible tempe arizona newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet spsgate mogate newsgate newswatcher user from rzaa80 email sps mot com jim chott subject re toyota land cruiser worth it message id rzaa80 followup to rec autos sender usenet newsgate sps mot com nntp posting host organization major semiconductor company references iftccu ca boeing com r3sbbinn8e0 hp col col hp com date thu apr gmt lines in article r3sbbinn8e0 hp col col hp com tvervaek col hp com tom vervaeke wrote my wife and looked at and drove one last fall this was model it was wayyyyyyyyy underpowered could not imagine driving it in the mountains here in colorado at anything approaching highway speeds have read that the new models have newer improved hp engine quite serious that laughed in the salesman face when he said once it broken in it will feel more powerful had been used to driving jeep hp engine believe the land cruisers land yachts were the sames as the runner which is also underpowered in my the and cruisers run the straight which only has about hp and lb ft of torque plenty off highway marginal on the highway the has much improved straight with hp and ft lb torque they are big cars very roomy but nothing spectacular if you take them on rough trails you ll see the difference the cruiser is an order of magnitude better in off highway ability jim chott toyota wd pickup rzaa80 email sps mot com lemans sport convertible tempe arizona xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu usc girtab usc edu not for mail from kinter girtab usc edu fireball newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech subject any opinions on early toronado date apr organization university of southern california los angeles ca lines sender ryan kinter distribution usa message id r6on7innm28 girtab usc edu nntp posting host girtab usc edu summary considering buying having had my car die on me engine fire insurance agent said it was probably totaled am in the market for another vehicle saw toronado that was within my expected price range and was wondering if anybody could relate their experiences with me namely does it have accceptable power it has in it does its being front wheel drive make maintenance difficult one power window and the power seat do not work are these expensive items to replace if do the work myself how long do the engines usually last now any other experiences good or bad and opinions thanks ryan kinter kinter scf usc edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet autodesk rogerh from rogerh autodesk com roger hupfauer newsgroups rec autos subject re too fast message id autodesk com date apr gmt references apr15 slcs slb com organization autodesk inc sausalito ca usa lines dcd se houston geoquest slb com dan day writes in article qh61m b6l armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes if the mustang and or sho platform were designed for mph it would come with better seatbelts more supportive seats stronger passenger compartment cage better brakes stiffer suspension different tires and body design that takes advantage of aero effects to keep the car on the ground in other words it be rx7 yeah and then we pay go with lx mustang most bang for your buck path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net noc near net uunet autodesk rogerh from rogerh autodesk com roger hupfauer newsgroups rec autos subject grand national message id autodesk com date apr gmt organization autodesk inc sausalito ca usa lines does anyone have one of these that would care to share some information on concerned about the turbo how reliable is it how the gas milage please responde to me not here thank you roger newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu caen umeecs quip eecs umich edu dholt from dholt quip eecs umich edu dennis holt subject re honda clutch chatter message id apr22 zip eecs umich edu sender news zip eecs umich edu mr news organization university of michigan eecs dept ann arbor references hpindda cup hp com apr22 bnr ca date thu apr gmt lines in article apr22 bnr ca dwjz bnr ca doug zolmer writes in article hpindda cup hp com jimb hpindda cup hp com james bruder writes anyone else experiencing similar problem this concerns the clutch on honda accord speed when the clutch is first used in the morning about the first miles of shifting there is significant amount of clutch chatter until things warm up then the clutch shifts smoothly this chatter started when moved to the san francisco bay area from low humidity environment the dealer stated that this is known to happen since honda changed from an asbestos to non asbestos clutch material no remedy seems that moisture on clutch surface causes slipping until the moisture evaporates any comments out there the clutch on my honda civic ex ex in the does this too it annoying now that think about it is worse when the humidity is high the dealer also claims there nothing they can do since the clutch is self adjusting hydraulic design yeah right one of the reasons sold my civic vx was the chattery grabby clutch although din notice it being any worse in humid weather perhaps because its always humid around here was told by honda that it has to do with changing from asbestos to non asbestos linings which began around someone could make some good money selling the old fashion variety if it legal to manufacture them these days my feeling is that since many other car makers do not have this problem that it poor design or engineering problem on the part of honda three things to look out for on all honda products clutch chatter bad brake rotors and rusty exhaust systems xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech alt autos antique rec autos antique newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech alt autos antique rec autos antique path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu csc ti com tilde csc ti com fstop csc ti com lobby ti com stafford from stafford lobby ti com ron stafford subject re warning please read message id stafford lobby ti com keywords brick truck danger lines sender usenet csc ti com nntp posting host organization mhhc references qh336innfl5 cs utk edu c5joit e31 bcstec ca boeing com apr20 voodoo ca boeing com apr22 is morgan com date thu apr gmt in article apr22 is morgan com sergei is morgan com sergei poliakoff writes from sergei is morgan com sergei poliakoff subject re warning please read keywords brick truck danger date thu apr gmt in article apr20 voodoo ca boeing com tomm hank ca boeing com tom mackey writes in article c5joit e31 bcstec ca boeing com neil bcstec ca boeing com neil williams writes reformatory for juviniles few blocks away they caught the year old that did it they put cover over the overpass what else could they do execute the juvi on the grounds of the reformatory required attendendence by the rest of the inmates as soon as possible after the incident and quick sure trial am quite serious cause and effect nothing else will ever make dent this will not work hitler youth newark teenager car stealing epidemics student riots and other similar cases show that death is not behaviour shaping or even intimidating factor for teenagers teens defy death is strong deterent to the teens that are executed they won do that again this policy cuts way down on repeat offenders please do not flame me don agree with capital punishment for teen as far as rock throwing is concerned well it is very sad and tragic most of these incidents stem from the fact that these kids are dumb even smarter ones completely lack deductive thinking and can foresee the consequences of their actions beyond immediate ones unfortunately dumbness and cars whizzing at mph make an explosive mix they are also unsupervised with proper supervision they would not be throwing rocks if parents cannot provide the minimal supervision needed to stop this activity they should not be allowed to have children notice the smiley however hardly believe there was intent to kill in most of these cases rather desire to see the shattering glass admit was mercilessly attacking moscow busses with slingshot in my tender years akin to child breaking toys witnessed several even more endeavouring projects like stacking up bricks on railroad track technical details of such venture completely dominate the possibility of human tradegy heck when you are you have vague concept of human tradegy in mind of youngster quite sure that technical challenge of matching and predicting speed of thrown stone so that it gets the car smack in the windshield completely occupies the teen not leaving much room for other considerations sergei ron stafford texas instruments incorporated box ms stafford lobby ti com dallas texas path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu malgudi oar net news ysu edu yfn ysu edu ak954 from ak954 yfn ysu edu albion bowers newsgroups rec autos subject re v4 v6 v8 v12 vx date apr gmt organization st elizabeth hospital youngstown oh lines message id r6pfu q4i news ysu edu references r6a6hinnmnq ctron news ctron com apr21 ole cdac com c5uwdh cwv mentor cc purdue edu r4sc7 ahh reply to ak954 yfn ysu edu albion bowers nntp posting host yfn ysu edu in previous article smith ctron com lawrence smith says in article c5v6md kyp usenet ucs indiana edu mliggett silver ucs indiana edu matthew liggett writes v16 must be one somewhere believe bugatti coming has out one something like turbos and mucho macho hp one cool price too as heard at any rate the point is pretty sure there is indeed one in production tho rather limited this is no bugatti it labeled bugatti but has nothing to do with the bugatti of yore from what understand just some ppl wanting to build silly supercar and use that name to sell it drew may be thinking of the cizeta morodor v16t but that hasn reached production at least not yet as for the bugatti well have to agree with matt it ain the top dog it ain sexy and svelt looking and it ain real bugatti in fact it looks like it in tight competition with the consulier for the most butt ugly car of the decade award it isn that bad at least the bugatti eb110 has compound curves compared to the slab sides on the consulier and the bugatti has quad turbo thing of it as three cylinder turbo engines tied together also ettore bugatti nephew is on the board of directors and had hand in the development so that about as much bugatti as you are likely to get in today world much like enzo ferrari illegitamate son being allowed to take over part of ferrari as well don know of any cars with v4 but there are number of motorcycles with them but couldn tell you which ones all motorcycles look alike to me that funny have motorcylclist friends who say the same about cages most gp cc motorcycles are and the vf line of hondas were all from the vf through the vf including the rc30 race bike and the present vfr it should be noted that lancia built in recent history in the fulvia hf very pretty italian coupe al bowers dod alfa ducati hobie kottke blad iaido nasa well goodness sakes don you know that girls can play guitar mary chapin carpenter xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu caen uvaarpa maxwell ejv2j from ejv2j virginia edu erik velapoldi subject re dirty diesels message id apr22 virginia edu organization university of virginia references nataraja opal12 distribution na date thu apr gmt lines nataraja rtsg mot com writes heard the diesels are considered cleaner burning than gas engines because the emit less of carbon monoxide hydrocarbons and oxides of nitrogen co hc nox but they can put out lot of particulate matter heard something about legislation being discussed to clean up diesel emissions is there anything in the works to install scrubbers for diesels how about the feasibility of installing them on trucks and cars would it be any different than catylitic converter assume easier since we re removing particulate matter instead of converting gasses let hear people opinions vw and mercedes have tinkered with particulate traps also vw uses kind of turbocharger on their jetta ecodiesel that helps reduce particulates as well although don know the mechanics of it many diesel cars busses and trucks in europe are now being equipped with catalysts and traps in an effort to clean up diesel emissions already well below legal limits anyway it shame gm had to soil the diesel reputation in passenger cars and prevent further resource devotion to research into making this outstandingly efficient engine even further ahead of gas engines in emissions erik newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet newsgate watson ibm com hawnews watson ibm com news from born scepter ibm com christopher born subject re mercury villager minivan good buy sender news hawnews watson ibm com nntp news poster message id c63dr1 fiy hawnews watson ibm com date mon apr gmt distribution usa news software ibm os pm rn nr v0 by vishnepolsky and rogers lines reply to born vnet ibm com disclaimer this posting represents the poster views not necessarily those of ibm references r8uckinncmf gap caltech edu apr23 adobe com icjps asuacad bitnet nntp posting host scepter raleigh ibm com organization ibm sna networking development in icjps asuacad bitnet icjps asuacad bitnet writes my nissan quest has been doing mpg city though its first few tanks were more like mpg the v6 and at are remarkably smooth agreed own mercury villager and very impressed with the v6 and the at in the past ve been biased towards manual standard transmissions owned an aerostar with speed it was awesome but settled with the at in the villager and have been pleasantly surprised with it performance btw consumers report in their report on the villager alluded to some funny noises from the at ve been listening for them but haven noticed anything unusual chris christopher born born ralvms vnet ibm com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu malgudi oar net news ysu edu yfn ysu edu ak954 from ak954 yfn ysu edu albion bowers newsgroups rec autos subject re drag coefficientsvx date apr gmt organization st elizabeth hospital youngstown oh lines message id r6q4i qdr news ysu edu references apr22 wdl loral com reply to ak954 yfn ysu edu albion bowers nntp posting host yfn ysu edu in previous article gwm spl1 spl loral com gary mahan says could someone explain how to make sense of drag coefficients cd mentioned in magazines understand that lower numbers signify better aerodynamics but what does this mean in the real world is there way to calculate new top speeds assuming the car is not rev limited at top speed or mileage benefits if identical car had the cd reduced from to it pretty complex and cd isn the whole story either cd for cars is usually calculated based on the frontal area of the car so large car with good cd could get the same drag force as smaller car with poorer cd to calculate drag use this formula rho cd where is the drag force lbs rho is the local air density slugs ft is the velocity ft and is the frontal area ft note that the pieces called rho are sometimes called qbar or dynamic pressure fancy aero term for air pressure or force note that power is where is power lbf ft is the force drag in this case lbf and is velocity ft note that if you put the whole equation into one by substituting for force you get velocity cubed term that why huge increases in power result in little increases in speed ditto for decreases in cd so if you have mph car and reduce cd from to your new top speed is sound of trumpet fanfare mph sorry to dissappoint al bowers dod alfa ducati hobie kottke blad iaido nasa well goodness sakes don you know that girls can play guitar mary chapin carpenter path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu andrew cmu edu tn2c from tim nagy tn2c andrew cmu edu newsgroups rec autos subject ree mgb questions date thu apr organization cashier office carnegie mellon pittsburgh pa lines message id yfpjesm00uhbm5b2jz andrew cmu edu nntp posting host andrew cmu edu the whire wheels aren chromed they were to be painted silver grey the accelerating from stop shouldn be doggy because of the light weight of the car don pull the topto make it reach the snaps pulled couple out of the top doing that replacing the spanps usually doesn work let it sit in th sun open on the car for couple hours the try gently continually blew up the connecting rod bearing be sure your not buring too much oil don expect too much of smooth ride the lever arm shocks hold the road and your bladder the are ultra expensive supposedly the can be rebuilt whitney sell shock replacement kit the uses standard shocks had to rebuid boththe brake and clutch master cylinder in addition to the clutch slave this work made world of changes be sure the carb is the original type replacement my had dual stomberg oil dampenned side draft carbs ask if the clutch has ever been replaced to replace the engine and tranny have to be pulled as unit if you need more had mine all through hiogh school lots of maintenance to use every day path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester news bbn com noc near net uunet enterpoop mit edu senator bedfellow mit edu hkon mit edu from hkon mit edu henry kon newsgroups rec autos subject sunroof leaks all wet date apr gmt organization mit lines message id qot07inndne senator bedfellow mit edu nntp posting host msiegel mit edu my sunroof leaks ve always thought those things were royal pain can anyone provide any insight know the seal isn great maybe could weld the stupid thing shut hk xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu usc elroy jpl nasa gov ames cronkite cisco com dchan from dchan cisco com derek chan newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech subject re service indicator of bmw date apr gmt organization cisco lines distribution world message id r6q0ninnbpt cronkite cisco com references r42j3innlfj cronkite cisco com apr22 westminster ac uk nntp posting host lager cisco com originator dchan cisco com in article apr22 westminster ac uk jkjec westminster ac uk shazad barlas writes derek there is tool available to reset the service indicator on bmws but the lights will come back on after weeks the tool is in fact illegal in europe atleast it is often the case that the unsuspecting punter trots off to buy used bmw and few weeks later all the lights come on other than that know of no other tool anyone else about changing oil every miles thats ok on newer audis they only require it after every miles am talking about an oil change just query do you drive your car very very carefully like no sudden acceleration etc if yeah then the oil change seems quite reasonable but if you drive kinda fast get bit up tight abot that thingy point to note just because the first light came on at doesn mean all the others will come on every too shaz shaz hmm but the service indicators that have works this way there are green yellow red indicators initially all green indicators will be on for few minutes when you start your car the computer will actually sense how you drive your car and as time goes by the green indicators will start to go off one by one and then the yellow indicator will turn on and then the red indicator will go on and you should get service when by the time green indicators are off after service the mechanic or you will reset the service indicators and the computer starts counting again so expect to have tool or procedure to reset it so the green lights will come on and the yellow and red lights will go off wonder how people can do oil change themself without knowing how to reset the indicator it the first european car have and changing oil at miles is surprise to me and it big plus but wonder how that could happen since the oil lose its lubrication ability over time thought it the oil and not the vehicle that determines how often we should change oil any bmw owner on the net response welcomed ps my initial question is how do you seset the service indicator of bmw derek path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse decwrl uunet mri jeff from jeff mri com jonathan jefferies newsgroups rec motorcycles subject bmw rally summary memorial day weekend rally keywords bmw rally message id apr9 mri com date apr gmt article mri apr9 expires tue jun gmt sender jonathan jefferies jeff mri com distribution rec motorcycles organization microtec research santa clara california usa lines bbbbbbbb mm mm ww ww bb bb mm mm ww ww mm mm ww ww bbbbbbbb mm mm ww ww bb bb mm mm ww ww bb bb mm mm ww ww bbbbbbbb mm mm ww ww press release to all bmw riders subject rally time is here from bmw club of northern california bmw er rally may memorial day weekend san francisco bay area th annual bmw er rally sponsored by the bmw club of northern califronia will be held at the quincy california fairgrounds from may included in the pre registration fee at gate are star camping field events and trophies two dinners rally pin door prizes poker run vendor displays fun run english trials and live music playing throughout the weekend plus extras like hot showers tours concourse elegance and more this is first time in the er rally year history that the event is being held in quincy and according to pat gardner rally chairman the er rally continuing growth and the need for larger and more complete facility led us to quincy plus we can get there on either of our two most favrite highways highway which goes through the feather river canyon or up from the south via the northernmost part of the gold country highway day passes will not be available and non bmw rider must be pre registered guest of bmw rider the quincy fairgrounds is located on california state highway two miles south of downtown quincy for pre registration forms and additional information write doug hubbard bmw club of northern california norman court fremont ca or telephone us additional notes this is not for profit event and riders do get their monies worth whether you ve ever attended rally before or not this is the one to make the only problem has been that there are so many activities that attendees have to choose one over another quincy is beautiful campground lots of grass and little dust for folks who have been to previous er rallies at mariposa quincy has lots of space all of it flat so room is not problem there are buildings and such available if there is change in the weather also the people of quincy are going all out to welcome us registration will begin on thursday of course there are always early arrivals who will show up monday or tuesday the registration fee pays for camping thursday through monday days there will be tour friday with the main events beginning saturday sunday evening will be the awards ceremony for members of the various clubs club awards will be based on registration declaration of affilitation there will of course be the usual awards for oldest male and female rider betting needed to win and youngest rider they get cheater permits at and greatest distance one up two up and all the usual things path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu rpi batcomputer caen uvaarpa gems vcu edu cabell vcu edu csc2imd newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re best homeruns message id apr11 cabell vcu edu from csc2imd cabell vcu edu ian derby date sun apr gmt expires sun apr gmt references c568a3 e1r cs dal ca apr8 alchemy chem utoronto ca organization virginia commonwealth university lines personally will never forget mike schmidt home run against the expos in that decided the nl east it was also his career high th another home run that thought was totally incredible was in the alcs the ca angles had the boston red sox strike away from the pennant until don baylor hit two strike pitch for home run that was the most incredible turn of events have ever seen in baseball the sox later took the pennant away only to have the same thing done to them in the ws against the mets speaking of the mets isn it strange how the nlcs that year with the astros almost mirrored the nlcs with the phillies the astros have been painfully close twice must admit newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net torn nott bnrgate corpgate crchh327 crchh111 herling from herling crchh111 nosubdomain nodomain brent herling subject re improvements in automatic transmissions message id c5weqe ig news rich bnr ca sender herling crchh111 brent herling date thu apr gmt nntp posting host crchh111 organization bnr inc lines in article apr21 westminster ac uk jkjec westminster ac uk shazad barlas writes just wanted to know to wheelspin in an auto you keep the gear in gas it then stick the gear in ve never tried this but am sure it works but does this screw up the autobox we re having bit of debate about it here ah yes the neutral slam know that gm tested the old th400 and th350 by shifting from reverse to forward gears repeatedly while holding the engine at high rpms the units hold up incredibly well this is also the recommended technique to rock stuck vehicle out of the mud think the hydraulics are up to the task but the mechanicals of the driveline may object by breaking something ericy agree about the durability of the old th400 trannies from gm while never intentionally slamed my firebird ci conv into gear would leave the trannie in low read st grab hold hit the pedal and once the tires grabbed take off when reached about mph the turbo auto would shift to read super or nd and leave about to foot of double stripped rubber on the ground most everyone knew at the time was quite impressed with peeling out at mph the trannie held up just fine motor mounts would last about year until tied the motor down with large chains oh yea fyi pontiac ci bored over large valve heads holley spread bore crain blazer cam don remember the specs positrac hooker headers dual exhaust get this conv leather seats power windows power top ac cruise etc oh yea also pulled the cocktail shakers weights from the front and removed the lead pellet from the accelerator pedal damn us regulations oh how miss that car under sec and about to mpg well don miss the mpg front wheels off the ground with three quick jabs at the pedal bent pushrods stripped rocker studs every months really wonder what kind of rev was turning no tach re improvements in automatic transmissions anyone seen one of these lately buy it back in sec open top brent path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu usenet coe montana edu news uoregon edu netnews nwnet net news washington edu woobin from woobin dance ee washington edu woobin lee newsgroups rec autos subject re extensions date apr gmt organization image computing systems lab university of washington lines message id r822iinnt2b shelley washington edu references apr22 ericsson se nntp posting host dance ee washington edu in article apr22 ericsson se etxmst sta ericsson se writes was wondering what the country extension are sometimes just don have clue from where some people are writing these are the extensions know of ch switzerland se sweden fi finland uk uk com us edu us are both com and edu us fr france please feel free to add to this list markus nz new zealand au australia jp japan kr korea woobin lee image computing system lab woobin washington edu newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu rpi cary112 its rpi edu kensib from kensib cary112 its rpi edu brian kensing subject re manual shift bigots message id vly5rb rpi edu nntp posting host cary112 its rpi edu reply to kensib rpi edu organization rensselaer polytechnic institute troy ny references qn2lo c9s vela acs oakland edu date tue apr gmt lines prefer manual to an automatic as it should be believe that automatics should only be manufactured for people with physical disabilities who otherwise would not be able to drive automatic transmissions allow drivers to be lazy more time is available to fiddle with the radio or to look at the scenery instead of concentrating on the road the manual transmission keeps the drive always doing something granted it isn large movement plus driving should be fun driving manual is fun driving an automatic is chore in the case of shift speed automatics can be made to shift far faster that any human could move stick if was racing want and automatic for normal driving go with the manual xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu misc consumers soc culture usa alt journalism misc legal rec autos misc headlines misc misc newsgroups misc consumers soc culture usa alt law enforcement alt journalism misc legal rec autos misc headlines misc misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu moe ksu ksu edu crcnis1 unl edu news unomaha edu nevada edu jimi physics unr edu pyramid bobc from bobc pyramid unr edu bob conrad subject re new anti carjacking campaign message id apr23 physics unr edu sender usenet physics unr edu usenet login account organization university of nevada reno department of computer science references apr23 freenet carleton ca date fri apr gmt lines in article apr23 freenet carleton ca ae446 freenet carleton ca nigel allen writes here is press release from the national crime prevention council the campaign urges drivers to remember to lock up roll up and look around lock car doors immediately after entering or leaving the car roll up windows as far as possible and look around and be alert to avoid situations that are suspicious that reminds me of blurb in the police blotter in my school paper along the lines of police were called because so and so reported there were suspicious people hangning around the business building turns out it was two black men leaving the building after doing homework late one night path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech swrinde elroy jpl nasa gov news claremont edu ucivax news service uci edu translab its uci edu raman from raman translab its uci edu balaji ramanathan subject re plymouth sundance dodge shadow experiences nntp posting host translab its uci edu message id bd0bdc3 news service uci edu newsgroups rec autos organization university of california irvine lines date apr gmt distribution usa references qn88dinn8vk master cs rose hulman edu oprsfnx gsusgi1 gsu edu qofeainnn7h shelley washington edu in article qofeainnn7h shelley washington edu gaia carson washington edu we are gaia writes just stopped putting money into it must have put at least worth of repairs over it lifetime am sorry but lee iacocca can bite me bullshit whoever backs em best is just afraid the stupid things area the part about spending on repairs reminds me of an article read in magazine comparing the year ownership costs of toyota camry and ford taurus or something like that the result which they announced with great flourish was that it cost the same at the end of the period that was their argument to prove that you don go wrong buying the ford taurus over the camry now if remember correctly the camry costs about or so more in initial costs essentially it means that you spend about extra on repairs on the taurus that is ridiculous every time your car needs repairs it is extra hassles loss of time and dozen other things would much rather spend more in initial costs than spend more in repair costs cut here for signature balaji ramanathan institute of transportation studies don believe in luck university of california irvine rely on it newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl rtech ingres dougs from dougs ingres com doug schneyman subject my two cars chevy nova cl and dodge se message id apr18 pony ingres com news software vax vms vnews b1 keywords chevy nova dodge se organization ask computer systems ingres product division date apr gmt lines as you can see have two cars both worth about each the problem is that maintenance costs on these two cars is running about per year and insurance per year what am doing wrong within the last two months the follows costs have occured dodge se dodge attempt at the american german car replace head gasket new radiator chevy nova cl chevy attempt at japan import tune up oil change valve gasket middle exhaust pipe misc note also that the chevy nova cl has only horsepwer does anyone out there have chevy nova with enough power to get up even small hill without knocking is there something wrong with my car even use octane gas have consider going to octane if can find it anyway what are the best maintenance items to do it yourself and what equipment is needed thanks doug car doug from wayne nj newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com paladin american edu gatech howland reston ans net noc near net uunet pipex uknet mcsun sunic aun uninett no humpty edb tih no arneh from arneh edb tih no arne henriksen subject re v4 v6 v8 v12 vx message id apr23 edb tih no sender newsadm edb tih no news administrator nntp posting host skylark edb tih no organization trondheim college of engineering newsreader tin version pl9 references apr21 ole cdac com date fri apr gmt lines the devil reincarnate ssave ole cdac com wrote am curious about knowing which commericial cars today have engines v4 don know of any v6 legend mr3 mr6 v8 don know of any v12 jaguar xjs please add to the list thanks ssave ole cdac com newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sol ctr columbia edu usenet ucs indiana edu nuntius from tom wetzel twetzel ucs indiana edu subject re replacement custom seats where to get message id c63uqs h46 usenet ucs indiana edu sender news usenet ucs indiana edu usenet news system nntp posting host twetzel ucs indiana edu organization indiana university useragent nuntius v1 references c63fe5 mhl usenet ucs indiana edu date mon apr gmt lines in article apr26 colorado edu jerry bowman bowmanj csn org writes what car are we talking about if its camaro chevelle gto nova etc there are bunch of places to get them corvette but don want to put corvette seats in it the original seats are in exc shape but they are uncomfortable as hell going to store those and find set to drive in have all the vette catalogs but looking for more generic type seat can modify the brackets but cushion height and overall width are concern ve looked through some local boneyards without success would just like to find pair of cheapo to use this summer tom path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu pitt edu zaphod mps ohio state edu swrinde gatech usenet ufl edu cybernet news from vlasis cybernet cse fau edu vlasis theodore newsgroups rec autos subject re the mustang message id otnm3b1w165w cybernet cse fau edu date apr gmt references c5zzd8 kt mentor cc purdue edu sender news cybernet cse fau edu organization cybernet bbs boca raton florida lines you know ford fan must say so looking forward to the next mustang have faith that it will be fine product more desireable than the camaro is now you know that mho true thats your opinion they beat ford to the market with the camaro firebird but really only in words production of these vehicles will be limited until the end of the year keeping selling prices above msrp for the most part since there are so many twitching camaro fans out there wouldn press ford to hurry the mustang since the final wait could be worth it besides no bow tie fanatic is gonna buy the mustang anyway true again wouldn take free mustang honest the next mustang will be ford highest profile car it attracts way more attention than the camaro firebird because it heritage is more embedded in the general public don lie to yourself and believe ford will forfeit that fyi they already did too bad that the current mustang can even compete with the new camaro without using an active imagination right now few cars can compare with the camaro think about it for car that will out perform all but few exotics if you are now swearing at me look at the stats they don lie there are no comparable cars in it class certinaly not for its price you know intelligent critical spews like the mustang bites man some of you are already beginning predict that the mustang and camaro will be comparable performers as usual also agree this subject is one that will never be setteled except maybe at the track unless the ford gets the hp romeo you don seriously believe that it was designed for the mark viii only do you hey can you imagine the potential of modified lt folks in few years we will surpass the levels of performance achieved in the late thats scary you ford vs chevy people must live in the planet of detroit or droid like they say in the airforce with enough horsepower anything will fly can put valve with twin garret on yugo and get sec qm thats useless its still yugo that will loose any race on track or on the street have you detroit beings compared the ultra long throw stick shifts of the with the mr2 turbo or rx7 ll buy it in mos or the torsen differential of the rx7 compared to the differential of the that sounds in every hairpin turn and bythe way and camaro both have drums on the rear breaks hello this is the vlasis theodore software engineer just say no to signatures path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu lll winken llnl gov fnnews fnal gov rreilly fnal gov user from reilly admail fnal gov rob reilly newsgroups rec autos subject re changing brake fluid is it necessary followup to rec autos date apr gmt organization fermilab lines distribution world message id reilly rreilly fnal gov references apr23 gmuvax gmu edu nntp posting host rreilly fnal gov in article apr23 gmuvax gmu edu lcarr gmuvax gmu edu wrote hi ve been seeing all these articles about changing brake fluid and am wondering if this is really necessary have an toyota corolla sr5 with and am in the process of doing preventative maintenance and was wondering if this was something that should add to my list of things to do any information would be greatly appreciated really love this car and would like to keep it for as long as possible thanx lisa sign me only manual will do amplifying on jeff goss answer the absorbed water will rust your brakelines and master cylinder and calipers and you could suddenly lose all your brake fluid xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sol ctr columbia edu destroyer cs ubc ca unixg ubc ca erich triumf ca music from music erich triumf ca fred bach newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech subject re dirty diesels date apr pst organization triumf tri university meson facility lines distribution na message id apr199312432440 erich triumf ca references nataraja opal12 apr22 virginia edu nntp posting host erich triumf ca news software vax vms vnews in article apr22 virginia edu ejv2j virginia edu erik velapoldi writes nataraja rtsg mot com writes heard the diesels are considered cleaner burning than gas engines because the emit less of carbon monoxide hydrocarbons and oxides of nitrogen co hc nox but they can put out lot of particulate matter heard something about legislation being discussed to clean up diesel emissions is there anything in the works to install scrubbers for diesels how about the feasibility of installing them on trucks and cars would it be any different than catylitic converter assume easier since we re removing particulate matter instead of converting gasses let hear people opinions vw and mercedes have tinkered with particulate traps also vw uses kind of turbocharger on their jetta ecodiesel that helps reduce particulates as well although don know the mechanics of it many diesel cars busses and trucks in europe are now being equipped with catalysts and traps in an effort to clean up diesel emissions already well below legal limits anyway it shame gm had to soil the diesel reputation in passenger cars and prevent further resource devotion to research into making this outstandingly efficient engine even further ahead of gas engines in emissions erik sure don know what and how they measure in regards to diesel motors in cars trucks and busses but think they are probably measuring the wrong pollutants or at the wrong time or both certainly find it offensive to drive behind diesel bus or diesel truck and some diesel cars they stink and it always roll up the windows panic time when one comes by or ducks in front of me when am driving with my family don think the combustion mixture is kept under very good control in diesel engines and that why they stink so the invisible unsmellable pollutants are reduced in diesels yeah well so what someone forgot about the visible stinky kind and as far as am concerned those kind are just as bad am all for de stinking the diesel vehicles it ll keep the traffic signs cleaner too fred bach operations group internet music erich triumf ca triumf tri university meson facility voice loc wesbrook mall ubc campus fax university of british columbia vancouver canada v6t a3 these are my opinions which should only make you read think and question they do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer or fellow workers path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu caen nic umass edu noc near net ceylon newshost hhd0 from hhd0 harvey gte com horace dediu newsgroups rec autos subject re mbenz series vw passat message id ceylon gte com date apr gmt references apr24 ns1 cc lehigh edu sender news ceylon gte com organization gte laboratories waltham ma lines go with the mercedes if you can afford it think the wagon starts around although it could be there is no comparison with any of the other cars listed horace dediu gte laboratories sylvan road internet hdediu gte com waltham ma path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu usc venice batman bmd trw com mcrosbie from mcrosbie batman bmd trw com newsgroups rec autos subject re viper car alarms message id apr26 batman bmd trw com date apr mst references c605fr cdo cs uiuc edu lines in article c605fr cdo cs uiuc edu u1815 cs uiuc edu ronald garnett writes hello auto enthusiasts recently had more car mangled broken into and decided to get an alarm installed it viper and has shock sensor sensors for each door ignition cutoff and automatic door locks have this same alarm installed in my syclone it works great the shock sensor is very sensitive but much more practical than the motion sensor have on my other car it doesn trigger if the car is rocked gently by the wind but any kind of shock sets it off even kicking the tire sets it off it works great what worries me is the hood and hatch if someone could pry them up gently enough then they could bypass the alarm the shock sensor is adjustable and there are two cycles on it you can adjust it to be sensitive enough that there is no way you could open the hood without setting off the alarm although know that you cannot pop the hood on the syclone without setting off my alarm now and yet have had zero none false alarms with this system the alarm tells you when you disarm it whether it has been activated in your absence have been able to trace every alarm to it cause and it was not false alarm also wondering how easy it would be for thief to crawl underneath the car and cut the battery cable to disable the alarm guess it would be possible depending on the vehicle my syclone is so tight in the engine compartment that it would be tough to do this there are supplemental power supplies you can put on with this viper alarm but don have one really think that if someone wants my car that bad the alarm won keep them from it even with supplemental power supply viper also sells some fancy field disturbance sensor that supposedly detects people approcahing the car this is primarily for convertibles have convertible and have looked at this feature in detail alpine actually makes better radar unit if you want to get one of these it has zones in it that can be shut down independently so that if one side of your car has pedestrian traffic or something else that would trigger an alarm it shuts down the zone or rather pulls it in tighter don see the real benefit to these unless you have convertible that you leave the top down on avoid the voice alarm that can be added to the radar package it talks to people as they walk by saw one installed on lotus esprit the kids would taunt it seeing how close they could get before it warned them to get back the owner finally disabled it which defeats the purpose in my mind interested in the opinions of you netters about these problems and about the viper in general am real happy with my viper one other feature really like is you can tune it to your preferences you can have it arm passively or not you can disable the chirp for arming disarming you can have it lock unlock the doors when the alarm is armed disarmed like these features hate the chirp when the alarm arms disarms so mine flashes the lights only like the door lock feature although have to be careful to take my keys with me because it doesn know if you have left your keys in the car when it passively arms and locks the doors but if you are meticulous about taking your keys with you it takes care of the rest the car is an ford probe gt that used to be in great shape ron garnett looked seriously at the alpine system too it is real nice system but more money and it has motion sensor standard instead of the shock sensor the shock sensor is better and the viper shock sensor is better cycle than the optional alpine one imho think the viper gives you lot of good value for the money but it isn absolutely tamperproof no system is except maybe the one that james bond had on his lotus in for your eyes only anyone know where we can get one of those installed maybe that was what they had in the van in the world trade center huh merrill newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu cs utexas edu geraldo cc utexas edu portal austin ibm com awdprime austin ibm com leapman from leapman austin ibm com scott leapman subject re autofom fomblin originator leapman junior austin ibm com sender news austin ibm com news id message id c63va8 b9j austin ibm com date mon apr gmt reply to login austin ibm com references c63jxv jf news cso uiuc edu organization ibm austin lines tried the autofom stuff on my saturn sc and was so disappointed with it that returned it for refund polished the car for hours and couldn remove the swirl marks thin film that was all over the finish it also attracted more dirt than without the stuff newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu cs utexas edu geraldo cc utexas edu portal austin ibm com awdprime austin ibm com leapman from leapman austin ibm com scott leapman subject car alarms which one originator leapman junior austin ibm com sender news austin ibm com news id message id c63vh4 qyz austin ibm com date mon apr gmt reply to login austin ibm com organization ibm austin lines before we get into another discussion on the relative merits of car alarm let go on the assumption that one is desired the question then remains which one ve owned hornet and was satisfied but not enough to get another for my new car the alpine has been highly recommended but what about clifford and vse derringer any others want all of the standard stuff door lock interface starter kill light flash led valet mode passive active shock motion sensor etc thanks for the advice newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu caen nigel msen com ilium rphroy kocrsv01 c23st from c23st kocrsv01 delcoelect com spiros triantafyllopoulos subject funny car taxes was re market access message id apr22 kocrsv01 delcoelect com sender news kocrsv01 delcoelect com usenet news account organization delco electronics corp references apr22 leland stanford edu r5acf nh1 agate berkeley edu distribution na date thu apr gmt lines in article r5acf nh1 agate berkeley edu robohen ocf berkeley edu henry robertson writes keep in mind that owning any car in korea is luxury that only the ruling class can afford every government agency worth its salt finds some reason to levy tax on car ownership last heard there were seven different fees to pay to own car we used to have tax in greece named after the queen mother the queen left monarchy was abolished but the tax stuck similar single purpose taxes have stuck to help the victims of the earthquake of xx build the metro obmoralconclusion next time someone proposes car tax or gasoline tax promising it temporary it ain spiros spiros triantafyllopoulos c23st kocrsv01 delcoelect com software technology delco electronics gm hughes electronics kokomo in post therefore armm xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu csd4 csd uwm edu homi from homi csd4 csd uwm edu sammy newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech subject changing oil on m89 maxima date apr gmt organization computing services division university of wisconsin milwaukee lines distribution world message id r8j91inndua uwm edu nntp posting host originator homi csd4 csd uwm edu hello again another question just got my hands on quarts of readline gear oil at quart now need to know how to throw it into my car own an nissan maxima se any ideas can mix the oil in there with this stuff or should drain first then only use this stuff if you know where if there is one the drain plug on the manual transmission on the maxima is would really appreciate any comments also have any of you maxima owners thied this stuff in your cars thanks in adv sammy newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu moe ksu ksu edu osuunx ucc okstate edu constellation uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison from callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james callison subject re v4 v6 v8 v12 vx sender usenet constellation ecn uoknor edu usenet administrator message id c63v7g iy8 constellation ecn uoknor edu date mon apr gmt references apr21 ole cdac com nntp posting host uokmax ecn uoknor edu organization engineering computer network university of oklahoma norman ok usa lines in article apr21 ole cdac com ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes am curious about knowing which commericial cars today have engines v4 don know of any v4s don know of any i4s and flat4s are abundant v6 legend mr3 mr6 whole tload minivans pickups just about any car above the subcompact compact range and below the full size range with few exceptions i6s are much more rare now the only one personally know of that still in production is the venerable ford cid in the series pickups think that jeep big are also straight sixes but not big jeep person v8 don know of any where are you to not know of v8s there are mustangs cadillacs lincolns camaros corvettes thunderbirds all real full size pickups crown vics chevy moby hcaprice and even few japanese and european vee hickles with v8s v10 dodge viper dodge promises truck with v10 v12 jaguar xjs don ferarri and lamborghini both use extensively james james callison microcomputer coordinator of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer not an engineer but play one at work the forecast calls for thunder bird sc it hell of thing killing man you take away all he has and all he ever gonna have will munny unforgiven newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu rphroy kocrsv01 c23st from c23st kocrsv01 delcoelect com spiros triantafyllopoulos subject re v4 v6 v8 v12 vx message id apr22 kocrsv01 delcoelect com sender news kocrsv01 delcoelect com usenet news account organization delco electronics corp references apr21 ole cdac com apr22 telxon mis telxon com date thu apr gmt lines in article apr22 telxon mis telxon com joes telxon mis telxon com joe staudt writes in article apr21 ole cdac com ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes am curious about knowing which commericial cars today have engines v4 don know of any because there is no such thing friend had ford taunus era early that did have v4 in it lost bet on it find it hard to believe there are no recent cars with v4 in them any recent ones spiros spiros triantafyllopoulos c23st kocrsv01 delcoelect com software technology delco electronics gm hughes electronics kokomo in post therefore armm newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu usc sdd hp com sgiblab rtech ingres daveb from daveb ingres com dave brower dbms hack subject re manual shift bigots message id apr22 pony ingres com originator daveb lotus in reply to kissane black berkeley edu john kissane reply to daveb lotus dave brower dbms hack organization the ask group references c5liw2 cax news rich bnr ca apr17 engr washington edu crh regent technik tu muenchen de apr19 engr washington edu apr21 rtsg mot com date apr gmt lines in article apr21 rtsg mot com kissane black john kissane writes as matter of interest does anyone know why autos are so popular in the us while here in europe they are rare just wondering primarily milage gas is much more expensive so people are very concerned about it taking few more liters per kilometer this along with narrow old cities also results in smaller cars with smaller engines these engines usually don have the torque to mesh well with an automatic so having engines that don work well with autos and great concern for milage the usual euro car has manual note that not many big benzes come with manuals if you ve got the money for the car you ve got the money for the gas and the engine to drive through the slushbox as automatics become more efficient the bigotry is probably reduced still everyone knows how to drive manual and cars are cheaper with one and it saves little expensive fuel so there aren compelling reasons to go automatic db newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu csn csn miranda jafo from jafo miranda accum com sean reifschneider subject re too fast message id apr23 miranda accum com date fri apr gmt references apr15 slcs slb com autodesk com organization observatory software lines this whole discussion is just religous war rather have rx than the mustang for times the price that how you explain porsches selling some folks would rather have the stang shrug sean test signature newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet pipex uknet pcl jkjec from jkjec westminster ac uk shazad barlas subject re v4 v6 v8 v12 vx message id apr23 westminster ac uk organization university of westminster references apr21 ole cdac com c5uwoj bt usenet ucs indiana edu date fri apr gmt lines v16 anyone anyone heard of cizata v16t its mainly sold in the middle east where they dont have as strict legislation as in the usa and ec newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet pipex uknet pcl jkjec from jkjec westminster ac uk shazad barlas subject re nissan nomenclature was re manual shift bigots wanted message id apr23 westminster ac uk organization university of westminster references apr21 westminster ac uk r4smd b37 usenet ins cwru edu apr22 cactus org date fri apr gmt lines thanx craig in addition to craigs coments and to clear up any further confusion the sx of usa was reffered to as silvia turbo in the uk performance figures of uk sx are vmax mph shaz oh one more you know that new prelude vtec well is there an auto version in the usa ve heard of them in japan but not uk also do you guys get auto miatas newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu uunet pipex uknet pcl jkjec from jkjec westminster ac uk shazad barlas subject emergency brake on opel was nissan maxima message id apr23 westminster ac uk keywords nissan organization university of westminster references apr22 galileo cc rochester edu date fri apr gmt lines since we re on the subject of brakes does anyone know why wd vauxhall opel disengages drive to the rear wheels when the brakes are applied vauxhall boast about how the car is more stable in fwd mode during braking than in wd mode how is this so shaz newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu uunet pipex uknet pcl jkjec from jkjec westminster ac uk shazad barlas subject re dirty diesels message id apr23 westminster ac uk organization university of westminster references nataraja opal12 ceylon gte com distribution na date fri apr gmt lines yeah diesels are cleaner than petrol powered cars they even have catalysts fitted to disels now oh and citroen have even launched the first sports diesel car in the world which is probably true if you assume if its for production purposes merc benz had prototype which runs on diesel back in around it did and read this mph shaz newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu uunet pipex uknet pcl jkjec from jkjec westminster ac uk shazad barlas subject re thoughts on the vw corrado vr6 message id apr23 westminster ac uk keywords vw corrado organization university of westminster references apr22 galileo cc rochester edu date fri apr gmt lines in the ec the corrado vr6 is rated as best handling car this side of as it goes just read an article in autocar motor comparing the vr6 to ford probe later to be launched in the uk the vr6 is more powerful even more so coz its instead of in the ec and more fun to drive etc etc but the probe has slightly smoother engine thanx mazda mx6 they sum it up as both cars are fast the vr6 is bit more exhilirating to drive but only if you re prepared to work harder shaz newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu moe ksu ksu edu osuunx ucc okstate edu constellation uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison from callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james callison subject re extensions sender usenet constellation ecn uoknor edu usenet administrator message id c63wzh k0p constellation ecn uoknor edu date mon apr gmt references apr22 ericsson se gfpftjw00iv3q3vwyv andrew cmu edu r6omsinnnbk ctron news ctron com nntp posting host uokmax ecn uoknor edu organization engineering computer network university of oklahoma norman ok usa lines in article r6omsinnnbk ctron news ctron com smith ctron com writes in article gfpftjw00iv3q3vwyv andrew cmu edu daniel holbrook dh3q andrew cmu edu writes these are the extensions know of ch switzerland se sweden fi finland uk uk com us edu us are both com and edu us fr france dk denmark no norway com and edu are both united states one refers to commercial institutions the other to mental mean educational institutions gov is also pretty much us it refers to government institutions internet was built on the aarp backbone us defense contractor network that used the extension think you mean arpa aarp is the american association of retired persons and seriously doubt that they want young whippersnappers building anything on their backbones what with de calcification and all to identify the type of organisation internet extended the convention for other countries but the us retained the old conventions the general convention is that if it doesn have country tag on it it us site that includes com commercial edu educational mil us military sites gov us gov non military sites eg nasa sites org anyone who is none of the above there are sites with such tags that are non us sites but they will have the country extension eg xxxx edu au is an extension saw today us sites can also use the us extension but as mr smith pointed out the internet was built on the arpanet backbone and they default to us sites if there no country code would suggest that anyone who didn know this or wants to know more about it on non system administrative level check out the book the whole internet user guide and catalog by ed krol or is it catalog and user guide can never remember and my copy is my desk at home it very good not necessarily technical guide to the internet and the various utilities that lurk on it including usenet don think it part of the nutshell series but it is published by reilly and associates this should go to one of the news newsgroups but damned if can figure out which one james james callison microcomputer coordinator of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer not an engineer but play one at work the forecast calls for thunder bird sc it hell of thing killing man you take away all he has and all he ever gonna have will munny unforgiven newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com uunet pipex uknet pcl jkjec from jkjec westminster ac uk shazad barlas subject radar detectors in the uk message id apr23 westminster ac uk organization university of westminster distribution autos date fri apr gmt lines did youy guys know that it is legal to own radar detector but is illegal to use it isn that bit like owning gun but not being allowed to use it my mate just switches his off whenever the cops are around newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet world edwards from edwards world std com jonathan edwards subject re comparing saabs bmw message id c5xq45 n3g world std com organization intranet inc references r7js5 k50 biz ecs umass edu date fri apr gmt lines in article r7js5 k50 biz ecs umass edu suri ganzer ecs umass edu writes hi would someone like to post comparative analysis quantitative measures hp etc and more so the qualitative feel of how they compare for the driving feel handling noise responsiveness etc for the saab and the bmw series any comments on just comparing the with the re handling take it that the saabs and bmw are comparable for reliability and all that would be nice if flaming wars could be avoided and folks just post their experiences had saab turbo and now have bmw is there is no comparison for handling reliability or overall quality of engineering the bmw wins hands down after years was sick and tired of the all the little problems and entropic decay of the saab the year old bmw is still as sweet as it was new but see you are posting from western ma bmw suck in the snow have aggressive snows plus hundred pounds of sand in the back and still try to avoid driving in the snow happily took the saab through blizzard conditions without worry would say this is the single design flaw in the bmw jonathan edwards edwards intranet com intranet inc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu darwin sura net dtix dt navy mil oasys dtnet9 dt navy mil bense from bense oasys dt navy mil ron bense newsgroups rec autos subject re dumbest automotive concepts of all time message id bense oasys dt navy mil date apr gmt references apr24 ns1 cc lehigh edu sender news oasys dt navy mil organization dis claim is mine lines in article apr24 ns1 cc lehigh edu amh2 ns1 cc lehigh edu alois himsl writes in article apr15 jpl devvax jpl nasa gov nancy hayduke nancy feagans writes ashtrays and cigarette lighters these should be an option you forget that the cigarette lighter plug is essential for plugging in radar detectors and lights the ashtrays are also essential because they are great places to keep change and tokens wouldn you rather have some type of standard electrical plug instead of that fire hazard waiting to happen adaptor know would and would also prefer to have sensibly placed cup holders instead of an ashtray my car came with coin holders already built in ron newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu swrinde gatech udel rochester rit isc newsserver ritvax isc rit edu adn6285 from adn6285 ritvax isc rit edu subject re bmw message id apr26 ultb isc rit edu sender news ultb isc rit edu usenet news system nntp posting host vaxa isc rit edu reply to adn6285 ritvax isc rit edu organization rochester institute of technology references apr25 ultb isc rit edu apr26 westminster ac uk date mon apr gmt lines in article apr26 westminster ac uk jkjec westminster ac uk shazad barlas writes in article apr25 ultb isc rit edu adn6285 ritvax isc rit edu writes the radio does not work untill the car warms up and you honk the horn hahaa hahahah hahahahahahaaaaa cant stop its killing me hahah was dead serious when posted it actually have an attempt of explanation to this phenomenon but ll keep you guessing still want responces of which got exactly mike newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu ux1 cso uiuc edu news cso uiuc edu uxa cso uiuc edu cka52397 from cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc subject re v4 v6 v8 v12 vx date fri apr gmt message id c5x96l foe news cso uiuc edu references apr21 ole cdac com apr22 ncar ucar edu sender usenet news cso uiuc edu net noise owner organization university of illinois at urbana lines cbh windsurf scd ucar edu cris hannu writes in article apr21 ole cdac com ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes am curious about knowing which commericial cars today have engines v4 don know of any v6 legend mr3 mr6 v8 don know of any yeah right the bmw xx are v10 or v12 can remember which the auto show was while ago the is v12 from the il is there or v12 jaguar xjs please add to the list thanks ssave ole cdac com cris hannu windsurfing the high country cray research inc ncar boulder co cbh windsurf scd ucar edu chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu darwin sura net dtix dt navy mil oasys dtnet9 dt navy mil bense from bense oasys dt navy mil ron bense newsgroups rec autos subject re it rush was re too fast message id bense oasys dt navy mil date apr gmt references c5lobl ddw mentor cc purdue edu unisql uucp c5r43y f0d mentor cc purdue edu apr19 cactus org apr199314371355 stdvax sender news oasys dt navy mil distribution usa organization dis claim is mine lines in article apr199314371355 stdvax oaddab stdvax dirk broer writes still its amazing in germany you can have cars traveling mph and mph on the same to lane road around washington dc they can keep traffic flowing at actually that be mph and mph the legal speed limit for trucks in two lanes each direction it hell of rush when those trucks fly by or was that me flying by them who cares the rush is really something else and so is the draft ron newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu msuinfo agate linus progress damelio from damelio progress com stephen amelio subject re the mustang message id apr26 progress com sender usenet progress com mr usenet nntp posting host elba organization progress software corp references c5zzd8 kt mentor cc purdue edu otnm3b1w165w cybernet cse fau edu date mon apr gmt lines vlasis cybernet cse fau edu vlasis theodore writes have you detroit beings compared the ultra long throw stick shifts of the with the mr2 turbo or rx7 ll buy it in mos or the torsen differential of the rx7 compared to the differential of the that sounds in every hairpin turn or the price tag of the rx7 vs mustang part of the definition of mustang is that it should be affordable by the masses of course ford knows youre argument they own big piece of mazda take good look at mach iii now an rx7 hhhmmmmm and bythe way and camaro both have drums on the rear breaks hello this is the that is tragedy but don think new camaros or the new mustangs will steve alan kulwicki winston cup champion path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sol ctr columbia edu eff news kei com ub galileo cc rochester edu rochester rit isc newsserver ritvax isc rit edu adn6285 from adn6285 ritvax isc rit edu newsgroups rec autos ny forsale subject re mr2 seats for sale message id apr26 ultb isc rit edu date apr gmt references apr26 ultb isc rit edu apr26 noao edu sender news ultb isc rit edu usenet news system reply to adn6285 ritvax isc rit edu organization rochester institute of technology lines nntp posting host vaxa isc rit edu in article apr26 noao edu groves noao edu lee groves writes from article apr26 ultb isc rit edu by adn6285 ritvax isc rit edu have pair of sport seats from mr2 for sale blue black as the owner of an mr2 and having several friends who own them am very uncomfortable when see an ad like this have known several people who have lost the seats from their mr2 in the middle of the night to support the celica retro fit trade and the insurance companies have been very miserable to deal with in all cases when these seats are seen for sale they are most often stolen so it would be nice to see statement saying where they came from that would at least help to soothe the reflexive fear that someone is making buck at someone elses expense ll give this seller the benefit of the doubt but people should be aware the the vast majority of mr2 seats on the market especially those that are in celicas are stolen lee btw they are incredible seats so if it legit go for it am the original owner of the seats and the original poster take very serious offence in your statement see lot of computers advertized on the net and my friend just had been releived of his machine all the net computer ads are for stolen computers where did you learn logic as for the seats they were replaced by much harder literally celica gts seats due to my back problem that is why had to reuse the mr2 brackets and that why the mr2 seats sell are attached to celica brackets please in the future think before you make allegations like the above it hurts mike newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu moe ksu ksu edu osuunx ucc okstate edu constellation uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison from callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james callison subject re super mega automobile sighting exotics together sender usenet constellation ecn uoknor edu usenet administrator message id c63xp2 kjb constellation ecn uoknor edu date mon apr gmt references qvgg3innl0r phantom gatech edu apr22 virginia edu r7f9qinnk24 phantom gatech edu nntp posting host uokmax ecn uoknor edu organization engineering computer network university of oklahoma norman ok usa lines in article r7f9qinnk24 phantom gatech edu grahamt phantom gatech edu graham thomas writes jmm4h virginia edu the blade runner writes gt gotta be in my top favorite cars of all time list where is this place was the car for sale come on need details or not anyways just had to say wow at the sighting of such fine beast but remember the mustang will forever be the true king of the road the place was in what used to be small town now suburb north of atlanta don know if the car was for sale or not you wouldn put price on the window on this type of car anyway damn straight as far as ve heard unless the owner is very hard up the gt are not for sale at any price that mere mortals could afford and maybe the mustang will be forever king of the road the gt isn road legal think the gt actually is street legal although that particular question is moot see the price figures below this car was right hand drive weren they all like that how much does gt go for how many were made wish could find my shelby american guide it included the gt registry as of or so there were precious few of them made fifty is the number that springs to mind they made just enough to qualify for the manufacturer cup or whichever series it was that shelby broke ferarri year winning streak in in and they are all accounted for the last price saw estimated on gt was little bit over yes that right one million us dollars it was second only to some worthless piece of ferrari that it would blow the doors off of don recall off hand what the drive configuration was although certain some must have been lhd as they had to be sold to qualify for racing the drivertrain was the ford hi riser think and or side oiler coupled to various speed transmissions they also used speed manuals they had lots of problems with the original trannys breaking under the load of the layout was rear engine rear drive with the bundle of snakes exhaust headers can remeber other bits and pieces of info but can remember whether they applied to the gt or the shelby cobra daytona coupe ll try and find that reference james james callison microcomputer coordinator of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer not an engineer but play one at work the forecast calls for thunder bird sc it hell of thing killing man you take away all he has and all he ever gonna have will munny unforgiven path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sol ctr columbia edu eff news kei com ub oswego oswego oswego edu matthews from matthews oswego oswego edu newsgroups rec autos subject mg series for sale message id apr26 oswego oswego edu date apr gmt sender news oswego oswego edu network news reply to matthews oswego oswego edu distribution na organization instructional computing center suny at oswego oswego ny lines originator matthews cloy oswego edu mg tf with frame up restoration in early local show winner driven very little and stored inside since then mostly collected dirt dust needs attention to brake cylinders like all mg but otherwise ready to run chrome paint not fancy but it is mechanically excellent the engine cc was completely overhauled by machine shop it is priced at mg td good shape but hasn been run since needs engine work but no rust and everything is with it including top side curtains and carpet that were new and haven seen the outdoors since the mg td basket case call it parts car but it too good for that everything seems to be there except the tach would make good project car or parts car if you insist no apparent rust but the upholstery is disaster stored inside since the the top was new but now soso this one has wire wheels looking for all three cars will be sold as they stand with no hassles or haggles time has passed by and it is time to part company prices are negotiable reply via matthews oswego oswego edu or mail to box oswego ny harry matthews k2aou wrvo wrvn wrvj internet matthews oswego oswego edu learning resources satellite tv bitnet matthews snyoswva college cable tv voice mail oswego ny alloy ntnx pc mho are mine not oswego path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu usenet coe montana edu news uoregon edu netnews nwnet net news washington edu stalfos eliot from eliot stalfos engr washington edu eliot newsgroups rec autos subject re horizontally opposed boxer engines was v4 v6 v8 v12 vx date apr gmt organization skulls us lines message id apr26 engr washington edu references apr22 engr washingt apr24 magnus acs apr26 magnus acs ohio state edu nntp posting host in article apr26 magnus acs ohio state edu bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu brian queiser writes none of the configurations are perfectly inherently balanced which is what was talking about balance shafts and mass on either ends of the cranks can eliminate these forces moments which is something also pointed out and didn you also say that it was easier to add masses than to add balance shafts the sad truth is that some makers don bother to put balance shafts on their big shaky the three cranks refer to i4 even firing deg fp mp fs zcos2t ms flat4 even firing deg fp mp fs crank spacing ms zcos2t flat4 even firing deg fp mp azcost fs ms how about if this is ridiculous kindly explain why it been more than years since studied this stuff flat and i4s both have the potential to be nearly vibration free because subaru does that has nothing to do with i4s in general or porsche think subaru somehow connecting themselves to porsche is an absurdity and not porsche fan big wing dings these configurations overhead cams etc etc etc have been around for nearly years the point that they are trying to make is that while everybody settles for the orthodox inline they are using horizontally opposed which is unique in that market segment and porsche also uses flat six in their so what the problem don see any claim that their engine is as good as porsche they are simply pointing out that they use the same configuration as porsche if you want to nitpick ad campaigns think there are far more blatant excesses than this eliot xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu ames cronkite cisco com dchan from dchan cisco com derek chan newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech subject re service indicator of bmw date apr gmt organization cisco lines distribution world message id rhakfinn93d cronkite cisco com references r6q0ninnbpt cronkite cisco com apr23 uvm edu rich1c5z86v i9x netcom com nntp posting host lager cisco com originator dchan cisco com thanks for all the recommendations have decide to ignore the service indicators and do oil change myself every miles thanks again for all the responses derek xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sol ctr columbia edu destroyer cs ubc ca van bc microplex com hsk from hsk microplex com harjeet kalsi subject new mercedes diesels message id apr26 microplex com keywords multivalve automotive diesels organization microplex systems ltd date mon apr gmt lines hi fellow auto enthusiasts does anyone have any info on the new valve per cylinder diesels mercedes is working on any specs on outputs engine size will they be direct or indirect injection etc would be welcome from what hear these should be out late this year next year thank you in advance for your replies harjeet hsk microplex com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu biosci agate boulder bowmanj from bowmanj csn org jerry bowman newsgroups rec autos subject re replacement custom seats where to get message id apr26 colorado edu date apr gmt references c63fe5 mhl usenet ucs indiana edu c63uqs h46 usenet ucs indiana edu sender news colorado edu the daily planet organization university of colorado boulder ocs lines nntp posting host fred colorado edu in article c63uqs h46 usenet ucs indiana edu tom wetzel twetzel ucs indiana edu writes in article apr26 colorado edu jerry bowman bowmanj csn org writes what car are we talking about if its camaro chevelle gto nova etc there are bunch of places to get them corvette but don want to put corvette seats in it the original seats are in exc shape but they are uncomfortable as hell going to store those and find set to drive in have all the vette catalogs but looking for more generic type seat can modify the brackets but cushion height and overall width are concern ve looked through some local boneyards without success would just like to find pair of cheapo to use this summer tom call around to some wrecking yards in your area and if they have any look at fiero seats they are right down on the floor like vette and not too wide if you can find any let me know and ll call around here for you sure these yards ship stuff all the time newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet news tele fi news funet fi sunic seunet comm news thomas tornblom from thomas tornblom nexus comm se thomas tornblom subject re ultimate awd vehicles in reply to sylveste ecs umass edu message of apr gmt message id thomas tornblom apr23144510 beck nexus comm se sender news nexus comm se organization communicator nexus ab references apr7 ucsu colorado edu q34huinnjrv uwm edu apr09 engr washington edu bcd8b62 ecs umass edu date fri apr gmt lines in article bcd8b62 ecs umass edu sylveste ecs umass edu writes before the s4 became the s4 it was called the turbo quattro this model did come in wagon very quick wagon very rare also mike sylvester umass being satisfied audi owner turbo quattro my th audi get the free vag magazine the latest issue presented new s4 avant wagon with litre v8 like one of these btw this is my second quattro and my third turbo and must say that even in the summer with dry roads the quattros give so much extra in road holding and balance that hope can afford them always thomas real life thomas rnblom email thomas tornblom nexus comm se snail mail communicator nexus ab phone box fax uppsala sweden path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu ogicse das news harvard edu noc near net transfer stratus com usenet from sbonsib data cac stratus com steve bonsib newsgroups rec autos subject after market sunroofs power moonroof big type who makes the best keywords sunroof message id rhmg5 t55 transfer stratus com date apr gmt article transfer rhmg5 t55 organization stratus computer inc marlboro ma lines nntp posting host data cac stratus com hello all know that after market sunroofs may have left bad taste in some of your mouths but am really interested in finding good brand if one exists please let me know if you have heard of any makers with good reputation few failures no leaks that sort of thing and whether or not you have had first hand experience with that manufacturer who is generally regarded in the industry as the best price no object maker of power sunroofs steve steve bonsib reply to sbonsib cac stratus com stratus computer marlboro ma newsgroups ba market vehicles rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu darwin sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu csus edu netcom com westes from westes netcom com will estes subject wanted toyota previa all trac low miles message id westesc642bi fx9 netcom com organization mail group newsreader tin version pl8 date mon apr gmt lines looking to buy toyota previa all trac with low miles if you are selling one or want someone to buy out an existing lease please contact me by mail will estes internet westes netcom com xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos tech rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu swrinde cs utexas edu uwm edu biosci agate soda berkeley edu leeab from leeab soda berkeley edu ark boon lee newsgroups rec autos tech rec autos subject centreforce clutch message id rho7s a3 agate berkeley edu date apr gmt organization university of california berkeley lines nntp posting host soda berkeley edu any one with experience in having centreforce clutch or any other on his her car considering to replace my old stock clutch on my crx si what is fair price martin newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com hpscit sc hp com cupnews0 cup hp com news1 boi hp com jackw from jackw boi hp com jack wood subject re chevy gmc x4 fullsize pickups opinions sender news boi hp com news server project message id c6448g p7 boi hp com date mon apr gmt distribution na references c63my9 j1 world std com organization hewlett packard boise idaho newsreader tin version pl6 lines dick grady grady world std com wrote am considering buying chevy or gmc x4 full size pickup with the extended cab any opinions about these vehicles have there been any significant problems dick grady salem nh usa grady world std com so many newsgroups so little time bought brand new chevrolet k2500 hd x4 extended cab last may it has had many many problems see my earler post that describes the situation went to bbb arbitration and they ruled that chevrolet must buy it back from me if you do get one stay away from the speed manual with the deep low first gear they have put three of them in my truck so far after about miles overdrive either starts rattling or hissing loudly there is no way to fix them chevrolet says that the noise is characteristic of the transmission also if you are planning to use your truck to tow the gear ratios in that tranny suck on steep hill you get up to about mph in second gear at rpm yellow line if you shift to third the rpm drop to only and you begin to loose speed should point out that the v8 they put in the hd gvw trucks is detuned motor compared to the one they put in the light duty ones they dropped the compression ratio supposedly for engine longevity reasons so the light duty may pull better than my truck does other things that have gone wrong include the ventilation fan times so far paint had specs of rust embedded in the paint from being shipped by rail with no covering and suspension parts link between stabilizer and control arm fell off any company can make bad individual car chevrolet included what really bothered me was the way they reacted they made no attempt to deal with me except to tell me to take it back to the dealer for them to attempt to fix it one more time so bought brand new ford f250 hd super cab with and an automatic will never buy another chevrolet jackw hpdmd48 boi hp com newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu sample eng ohio state edu purdue haven umd edu darwin sura net spool mu edu torn nott cunews freenet carleton ca freenet carleton ca ae015 from ae015 freenet carleton ca steve hui subject high mileage audi question message id apr26 freenet carleton ca sender news freenet carleton ca news administrator organization national capital freenet ottawa canada date mon apr gmt lines question for any high mileage audi owners out there am interested in buying audi for cdn the reason the car is selling for so little is that is has km on it just under mi the car owner claims the car is in good condition my question is how reliable are audi with mileage that high would it be worthwhile for me to buy the car any problem areas that should look out for any help would be greatly appreciated post responses and or mail me thanks steve hui newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet pipex sunic seunet comm news thomas tornblom from thomas tornblom nexus comm se thomas tornblom subject re v4 v6 v8 v12 vx in reply to ssave ole cdac com message of wed apr gmt message id thomas tornblom apr23145503 beck nexus comm se sender news nexus comm se organization communicator nexus ab references apr21 ole cdac com date fri apr gmt lines in article apr21 ole cdac com ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes am curious about knowing which commericial cars today have engines v4 don know of any v6 legend mr3 mr6 vw golf passat vr6 inline v6 very narrow angle deg one head audi v6 v8 don know of any audi v8 some mbs some bmws v12 jaguar xjs bmw mb please add to the list thanks ssave ole cdac com real life thomas rnblom email thomas tornblom nexus comm se snail mail communicator nexus ab phone box fax uppsala sweden newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu caen usenet cis ufl edu usenet ufl edu tulane news from finnegan nrlssc navy mil subject re v4 v6 v8 v12 vx message id apr23 cs tulane edu nntp posting host nntpd invader nrlssc navy mil sender news cs tulane edu reply to kenneth finnegan organization sverdrup technologies references apr21 ole cdac com c5uwoj bt usenet ucs indiana edu bd5ed9f news service uci edu r6kcqinnhmp sumax seattleu edu apr22 engr washington edu date fri apr gmt lines in article apr22 engr washington edu eliot stalfos engr washington edu eliot writes the subarus all use degree vees in their engines eliot wouldn that make them an i4 or would they really be an henceforth referred to as underscore kenneth finnegan nrlssc navy mil path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu linac uwm edu msuinfo agate usenet ins cwru edu po cwru edu aas7 from aas7 po cwru edu andrew spencer newsgroups rec autos subject re impala ss going into date apr gmt organization case western reserve university cleveland oh usa lines message id rhq4j ha usenet ins cwru edu references uupcb wb3ffv ampr org reply to aas7 po cwru edu andrew spencer nntp posting host slc5 ins cwru edu in previous article george howell goucher wb3ffv ampr org george howell says gm has always screwed the rest of the divisions in favor of the corvette the current platform is no exception the detuned camaro and firebird is load of crap to keep people from realizing that they can buy one of these instead of corvette and save about like the idea of an impala ss but if they really wanted to impress me they would throw in big phat imagine the cops in their taurus police package and litres as they stare at your taillights gimme break you know chevy screw that up just like that almost great truck with the big phat have you ever seen the mufflers on that thing it amazing it moves which isn to say it not good idea but quite sure chevy screw it up the same way drew george howell ooo ppp aaa rrr mm mm ppp aaaaa rrr ooo ford better living through american horsepower george howell george howell goucher wb3ffv ampr org newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu usc news bbn com petra granite buck from buck granite ma30 bull com ken buck subject re questions about insurance companies esp geico message id buck granite sender news petra ma30 bull com network news organization bull information systems inc references mimsy umd edu apr22 usho0b hou281 chevron com unisql uucp distribution usa date fri apr gmt lines wrat unisql uucp wharfie writes my car was recently destroyed in hail storm fully expected to get jerked around by the insurance company wasn the only one who had hail damage state farm opened its claim centers on evenings and weekends and flew down additional adjusters from dallas have no experience with state farm but think it important to differentiate your experience from typical accident hail damage is clearly not the fault of the owner and also tends to be well publicized in the media so it to the ins co benefit to respond promptly and helpfully damage like this doesn imply anything about the likelihood of future claims unless you live in an area that gets frequent damaging hail storms so there no reason for them to stop covering you that lot different from at fault accidents or theft related claims which may be more indicative of claim patterns xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos misc consumers newsgroups rec autos misc consumers path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet decwrl pa dec com uvo dec com janix unt dec com ryn mro4 dec com stargl enet dec com balsamo from balsamo stargl enet dec com antonio balsamo save the wails subject re warped brake discs on taurus message id apr23 ryn mro4 dec com lines sender news ryn mro4 dec com usenet news system nntp posting host i8uu82 reply to balsamo stargl enet dec com antonio balsamo save the wails organization digital equipment corporation references apr8 bcrka451 bnr ca dmerrill apr14 ryn mro4 dec com apr14 advtech uswest com bsw utrc utc com date fri apr gmt from bsw utrc utc com bruce winters subject re warped brake discs on taurus in the past few years have owned mustang gts and now own bird sc they all have had this problem there was recall on the bird for the brake problem the ford dealer replaced the rotors and pads but the rotors warp after about miles between this problem and the fit and finish problems on the bird ll never buy ford again just had my rotors on my taurus gl changed less than miles ago and you guessed it noticing slight warpage in the left rotor had mechanic friend of mine look at it and he said that there is high spot on the rotor that is causing the problem this is brand new rotor bought from ford dealership can they even produce brand new rotor that is not warped currently negotiating with them to swap it out for new rotor this is my first american build car and not overly impressed tony name antonio balsamo company digital equipment corp shrewsbury mass work mail balsamo stargl enet dec com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet enterpoop mit edu senator bedfellow mit edu slipknot mit edu pwe from pwe slipknot mit edu paul emery newsgroups rec autos subject v4 engines date apr gmt organization massachvsetts institvte of technology lines message id pwe slipknot mit edu nntp posting host slipknot mit edu on the subject of the v4 ford in the uk used v4 engines exstensively in their ford transit vans this brings back memory from the seventies played in band at the time and for something like pounds four of us bought tranny to cart the gear around in it was in terrible shape cosmetically because it last owner was pig farmer we spent days cleaning it up and putting in partition and more seating but til the day it died everytime you turned on the fan to the defroster dried pig shit came flying out the vents back to the engine if remember right it was cc v4 and that thing could haul we could fill it with equipment and up to people and it went like bat out of hell of course there were no pollution controls on the engine and the gas was leaded and higher octane than we get now when the mechanical fuel pump quit we put in an electric one from morris minor that worked great ah fond memories pwe slipknot mit edu like to own squadron of tanks paul emery ron nasty the rutles magnet lab cambridge mass costellobeatlesspinaltapfawltytowersmuttsavengersstartrek tngenglandrutles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu sdd hp com nigel msen com caen batcomputer munnari oz au foxhound dsto gov au fang dsto gov au aeg dsto gov au pzh from pzh aeg dsto gov au paul heuer newsgroups rec autos subject re lemon law does anyone know the law date apr gmt organization defence science and technology organisation lines message id pzh aeg dsto gov au references apr20 news mentorg com nntp posting host albatross dsto gov au kchupp kchupp kevin chupp writes my father is have lots of problems with year old van what is the lemon law what should he do if he qualifies talk to philip greenspun he took ford to court recently and despite much manouvering and trickery on ford part he won well actually think ford settled out of court on the provision he shut his mouth and stopped causing them trouble love it when the little guy wins don have philip address anymore but philip where are you call may bring him out of hiding cheers paul paul heuer phone avionics technology dsto pzh aeg dsto gov au fax po box salisbury south australia newsgroups rec autos ny forsale path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com nigel msen com caen sol ctr columbia edu news columbia edu cunixf cc columbia edu sar28 from sar28 cunixf cc columbia edu stuart alexander ridgway subject re mr2 seats for sale message id apr26 news columbia edu sender usenet news columbia edu the network news nntp posting host cunixf cc columbia edu reply to sar28 cunixf cc columbia edu stuart alexander ridgway organization columbia university references apr26 ultb isc rit edu apr26 noao edu apr26 ultb isc rit edu date mon apr gmt lines in article apr26 ultb isc rit edu adn6285 ritvax isc rit edu writes in article apr26 noao edu groves noao edu lee groves writes as the owner of an mr2 and having several friends who own them am very uncomfortable when see an ad like this when these seats are seen for sale they are most often stolen so it would be nice to see statement saying where they came from ll give this seller the benefit of the doubt but people should be aware the the vast majority of mr2 seats on the market especially those that are in celicas are stolen am the original owner of the seats and the original poster take very serious offence in your statement me thinks thee dost protest too much please in the future think before you make allegations like the above he made no allegations and specifically gave the seller the benefit of the doubt he simply made the net aware of the fact that many of these seats are stolen so watch out and ask questions when buying that good advice to follow when buying anything from third party on the net or elsewhere it hurts touchy touchy mike alex ridgway newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu caen uvaarpa murdoch hopper jmh from jmh hopper virginia edu jeffrey hoffmeister subject re the mustang message id c5xtp7 mtb murdoch acc virginia edu sender usenet murdoch acc virginia edu organization itc uva community access unix internet project references apr22 virginia edu date fri apr gmt lines in article apr22 virginia edu jmm4h virginia edu the blade runner writes just have got to remind all of you that this is it yes that right somtime this fall ford the granddaddy of cars will be introducing an all new mega cool way too fast for accord drivers mustang it supposed to be streamlined looking similar to the mach iii concept car ford came out with around january can wait anyone out there hear anything about it recently if everything ve read is correct ford is doing nothing but re skinning the existing mustang with minor suspension modifications and the pictures ve seen indicate they didn do very good job of it the new mustang is nothing but re cycle of year old car jeff xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet emba news uvm edu blair from blair med uvm edu blair robertson subject re service indicator of bmw message id apr23 uvm edu sender news uvm edu organization university of vermont division of emba computer facility newsreader tin pl4 references r6q0ninnbpt cronkite cisco com date fri apr gmt lines dchan cisco com derek chan writes in article apr22 westminster ac uk jkjec westminster ac uk shazad barlas writes derek there is tool available to reset the service indicator on bmws but the lights will come back on after weeks the tool is in fact illegal in europe atleast it is often the case that the unsuspecting punter trots off to buy used bmw and few weeks later all the lights come on other than that know of no other tool anyone else shaz hmm but the service indicators that have works this way there are green yellow red indicators initially all green indicators will be on for few minutes when you start your car the computer will actually sense how you drive your car and as time goes by the green indicators will start to go off one by one and then the yellow indicator will turn on and then the red indicator will go on and you should get service when by the time green indicators are off after service the mechanic or you will reset the service indicators and the computer starts counting again so expect to have tool or procedure to reset it so the green lights will come on and the yellow and red lights will go off wonder how people can do oil change themself without knowing how to reset the indicator it the first european car have and changing oil at miles is surprise to me and it big plus but wonder how that could happen since the oil lose its lubrication ability over time thought it the oil and not the vehicle that determines how often we should change oil any bmw owner on the net response welcomed ps my initial question is how do you seset the service indicator of bmw derek there is perfectly legal tool available to reset the bimmer service lights it will cost you from mailorder and buying one far outweighs the possible consequences of destroying all the electronics if you try di it yourself you wonder how people do an oil change without knowing how it reset why is reseting so important the only reason for doing it is stop the annoyance of red light staring at you forget this in european cars you only need to change the oil every crap anyone serious about keeping their engine in good shape and extending its life will change it every inc filter don wait for the servive lights to come on before servicing the car bought bmw about months ago it had green lights on have changed the oil every completly flushed brake fliud changed all filters oil air and fuel changed transmission and drive oils and done almost all of the other things req for service and service after nearly miles am still on green lights after winter in burlington and it is snowing today that is not bad good luck blair blair robertson new zealander in vermont university of vermont posting his own ideas medical research facilty smooth muscle ion channel group colchester vermont email blair northpole med uvm edu telephone xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos vw rec autos rec autos driving rec autos tech newsgroups rec autos vw rec autos rec autos driving rec autos tech path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com decwrl decwrl olivea apple com voder jamesl from jamesl galaxy nsc com james lu x3702 subject how good is car wash wax message id c645ju irt voder nsc com sender news voder nsc com nntp posting host gallium nsc com organization national semiconductor santa clara distribution na date mon apr gmt lines question what your experience with car wash wax this is the liquid type of wax in bottles that you pour it in water sponge it on you car hose it off and dry it with cloth many people have used it it is very easy to work with and gives seeminly the same visual results as that of paste type of wax but does it last long does it have any negative effects to car paint can you forward your reply directly to my email id thanks james newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com ncr sd ncrcae mozart columbiasc ncr com mrice from mrice mozart columbiasc ncr com mark rice subject re review ford taurus sho message id apr26 ncrcae columbiasc ncr com nntp posting host mozart columbiasc ncr com organization ncr corp columbia sc references uupcb cutting hou tx us date mon apr gmt lines in article uupcb cutting hou tx us david bonds cutting hou tx us david bonds writes gk occasionally have trouble shifting into reverse the shifter gk refuses to enter the gate and often grind the synchros trying to gk get it into gear ll be watching this carefully in the next couple gk of months enter st wait seconds and then go into reverse they use the same synchros and you ll never at least haven ground em to fit when using this technique or do like the manual says and put it in rd first then you can quickly go into reverse no waiting mark mark rice mark rice columbiasc ncr com my views path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu caen nic umass edu noc near net bigboote wpi edu aspen wpi edu walkerr from walkerr aspen wpi edu robert walker newsgroups rec autos subject re broncos date apr gmt organization worcester polytechnic institute lines distribution world message id rhqv6 q6e bigboote wpi edu references uupcb wb3ffv ampr org nntp posting host aspen wpi edu does anybody have any information on the second generation broncos not talking about bronco ii referring to the broncos that began production in based on the chassis believe ahh broncos well personally have the blue book is just hair over grand bought it for and then bought new tires front end rebuild carb rebuild then did the unthinkable and blew the engine not bronco specific unmaintained engine with more bucks there now it is in nice condition well after new seats out of bird radio amps speakers alarm well the radio and amps were free and bought the speakers used for bucks and the other speakers took out of my old jeep sell jeep for bronco you might ask but it was wagoneer its lovely specimen solid front and rear axels ford and dana up front watch the rear axel wrap busted off my bolts once added traction shocks after that and haven had problem since also the bottom of the doors tend to rot bottom of the tailgates likes to rust right up to the new ones that might be in your budget the post broncos have that sickly ttb front end and little stamped and folded steel radius arms were as the have nice big cast iron longer radius arms ie more prspective wheel travel the only rust have is on my doors and few dings in the sheet metal don know when the removeable tops were discontinued but they are fun just ordered full convertable top for for mine credit card don ever break the window if you have the double laminated bronzed privacy glass in your cap it is over bucks to replace my bronco also does pretty good offroad haven bottomed out my suspension yet and have crossed over foot deep of water with no problems handles rocks like charm too one problem is it is wide and you sometimes can follow cj or toyota between two rocks or trees and your grandmother will have hard time getting up into it bob xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu caen nigel msen com fmsrl7 lynx unm edu chama eece unm edu mwalker from mwalker chama eece unm edu mark walker newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech subject re rfi art of clutchless shifting date apr gmt organization university of new mexico albuquerque lines distribution world message id r8sckinnm8i lynx unm edu references apr16 sscvx1 ssc gov apr17 nwnexus apr22 magnus acs ohio state edu nntp posting host warlock eece unm edu in article apr22 magnus acs ohio state edu sjcostan magnus acs ohio state edu scott costanzo writes he was as smooth as silk it was the most amazing shifting demonstration ve ever seen having said all that still don know why anyone would want to shift synchronized tranny without clutch why do it ego trip mark walker my old man always said mwalker chama eece unm edu too much is just right home guess that applies to my preferences albuquerque nm in performance cars xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu caen nigel msen com fmsrl7 lynx unm edu chama eece unm edu mwalker from mwalker chama eece unm edu mark walker newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech subject re rfi art of clutchless shifting date apr gmt organization university of new mexico albuquerque lines distribution world message id r8skoinnm8i lynx unm edu references apr19 madnix uucp lrr105 psuvm psu edu nntp posting host warlock eece unm edu in article lrr105 psuvm psu edu lrr105 psuvm psu edu writes have they showed the foot cam and telemetry for rusty wallace shifting at at lanta last year and he never touched the clutch except very slightly when down shifting hp is pretty powerful to me doubt his trans uses standard syncros there are several mechanisms for coupling gear with the transmission output shaft some of which are fine for racing and unsuitable for street use mark walker my old man always said mwalker chama eece unm edu too much is just right home guess that applies to my preferences albuquerque nm in performance cars path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu usenet coe montana edu news uoregon edu netnews nwnet net news washington edu spiff seattleu edu sumax seattleu edu not for mail from smorris sumax seattleu edu steven morris newsgroups rec autos subject re lexus and infiniti date apr organization addiction studies program seattle university lines message id rhsd9inngn5 sumax seattleu edu references afqzkhs00iv1e2yiss andrew cmu edu nntp posting host sumax seattleu edu in article afqzkhs00iv1e2yiss andrew cmu edu joseph mazza mazz andrew cmu edu writes btw just saw the new q45 on tv this weekend the big changes grille has been added looks nice too and some wood for the interior otherwise it looked largely unchanged they changed the lights and slope of the hood along with the new grille otherwise it is unchanged interestingly their lack of wood and lack of grille was big design statement they tried to defy conventional wisdom and carve their own niche unfortunately sales were only half those of the lexus and hence they now join the pack still wonder if much of the problem wasn the slow start from the initial ad campaign personally like the without the grille steve morris internet smorris sumax seattleu edu addiction studies pgm uucp uw beaver uunet gtenmc dataio sumax smorris seattle university phone dept or direct seattle wa newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uunet ca tsegw pbhandar from pbhandar tsegw tse com parminder bhandari subject info about audi used organization toronto stock exchange distribution rec date sun apr gmt message id c6277o a50 tsegw tse com lines am thinking of buying used audi auto these cars look good and audi do have good rep for these cars in europe where from was just wondering if there anything about these cars that should know parms newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uunet ca tsegw pbhandar from pbhandar tsegw tse com parminder bhandari subject question about integra auto box organization toronto stock exchange distribution rec date mon apr gmt message id c63j1h va tsegw tse com lines new to this group and this may have been discussed already in which case my apologies but have integra with an auto box according to the manual the car has lock up torque converter or something similar what is it what does it do and how does it work excuse my ignorance does anybody know parms no sig yet newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uunet ca tsegw pbhandar from pbhandar tsegw tse com parminder bhandari subject new integra for organization toronto stock exchange distribution rec date mon apr gmt message id c63ypt tsegw tse com lines ve heard unconfirmed rumours that there is new integra being released for does anybody have any info on this the local sales people know as much as can throw them parms still no sig xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos vw newsgroups rec autos rec autos vw path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uunet ca tsegw mhembruc from mhembruc tsegw tse com mattias hembruch subject re driver seat best cars of the year organization toronto stock exchange date mon apr gmt message id c643ta lu tsegw tse com references apr26 metrics com lines tomh metrics com tom haapanen writes the golf also won ajac automobile journalists association of canada car of the year award and unless am mistaken screwed up my borrowed vcr and got the first minutes the corrado slc was awarded ajac sports sporty car of the year mattias tom haapanen tomh metrics com software metrics inc waterloo ont stick your index fingers into both corners of your mouth now pull up that how the corrado makes you feel car january mattias hembruch my views do not necessarily reflect those of the tse mail mhembruc tse com xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu po cwru edu aas7 from aas7 po cwru edu andrew spencer newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech subject re rfi art of clutchless shifting date apr gmt organization case western reserve university cleveland oh usa lines message id r8u71 fhq usenet ins cwru edu references apr19 madnix uucp c5pxqt gvv portal hq videocart com lrr105 psuvm psu edu apr23 ra oc com reply to aas7 po cwru edu andrew spencer nntp posting host slc5 ins cwru edu in previous article lusky ccwf cc utexas edu jonathan lusky says in article lrr105 psuvm psu edu lrr105 psuvm psu edu writes not familiar with the trannies used in winston cup but in the trans am cars ve played with the transmissions were the racing variety with dog clutches instead of sychros in transmission with dog clutches the gears are always engaged with each other and moving the dog clutches engages the gears to the shafts motorcycle transmissions are the same way shifting without the clutch on transmission with syncros can and will cause transmission damage the only question being how long it takesto grenade something for the trans in my pulsar se it was about miles but it had weak tranny in the first place just out of curiosity how is this dog clutch any different from synchro transmission what you described sounds the same to me in fact what little ve studied on trannies the instructor referred to the synchros as dogs and said they were synonymous the gears are always meshed in synchronized gearbox and you slip the synchro gears back and forth by shifting or at least that is what was taught explain por favour thanx drew ps email fine if this is inappropriate for here or if the only bonhead who doesn know the diff path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu po cwru edu aas7 from aas7 po cwru edu andrew spencer newsgroups rec autos subject re v4 v6 v8 v12 vx date apr gmt organization case western reserve university cleveland oh usa lines message id r8ufk fr7 usenet ins cwru edu references apr21 ole cdac com c5uwoj bt usenet ucs indiana edu bd5ed9f news service uci edu r6kcqinnhmp sumax seattleu edu apr22 engr washington edu apr23 cs tulane edu reply to aas7 po cwru edu andrew spencer nntp posting host slc5 ins cwru edu in previous article finnegan nrlssc navy mil says in article apr22 engr washington edu eliot stalfos engr washington edu eliot writes the subarus all use degree vees in their engines eliot wouldn that make them an i4 or would they really be an henceforth referred to as underscore think that it is technicaly known as degree vee configuration could be wrong this is how ve seen them referred to drew newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu usc cs utexas edu hermes chpc utexas edu news utdallas edu goyal from goyal utdallas edu mohit goyal subject which radar detector should buy message id c648l4 n9 utdallas edu sender usenet utdallas edu nntp posting host apache utdallas edu organization univ of texas at dallas date tue apr gmt lines just entered the market for radar detector and am looking for any all advice recommendations warnings etc from anyone in this group email is preferred thanks newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu darwin sura net gatech gsusgi1 gsu edu gsusgi1 gsu edu antkasx from antkasx gsusgi2 gsu edu sturrock subject re viper car alarms message id antkasx gsusgi1 gsu edu organization georgia state university references c605fr cdo cs uiuc edu date mon apr gmt lines u1815 cs uiuc edu ronald garnett writes ron viper also sells some fancy field disturbance sensor that ron supposedly detects people approcahing the car ron if your viper system were tuned like neighbor is you wouldn get any sleep because of the damn thing waking every one in the neighborhood up we all used to try to ignore the alarm but have now made pact to bombard the house with night time visits and phone calls when ever we are awakened because some thunder storm passed over the next county or stray dog looked at the car car alarms are serious pain in the ass ks real men don have car radios since the exhaust is too loud to hear it anyway grin sturrock anthropology georgia state university ksturroc gsu edu newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet mdisea mothost white sapphire rtsg mot com cadiz from cadiz rtsg mot com jay cadiz subject gts headlight covers message id apr26 rtsg mot com sender news rtsg mot com nntp posting host azure5 organization motorola inc cellular infrastructure group distribution usa date mon apr gmt lines have eagle talon and wanted pair of gts headlight covers actually they are turning signal covers since the talons that year had pop up lights went to auto shop and bought the tail light blackouts for but they did not have the turning signal covers in stock asked how much it would be and he told me it would cost me another thought this was bit high for two small pieces of plastic can anyone find me cheaper pair or even used one jay cadiz cadiz marble rtsg mot com motorola inc arlington heights il path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu po cwru edu aas7 from aas7 po cwru edu andrew spencer newsgroups rec autos subject re v4 v6 v8 v12 vx date apr gmt organization case western reserve university cleveland oh usa lines message id r8v0b gm2 usenet ins cwru edu references apr21 ole cdac com thomas tornblom apr23145503 beck nexus comm se reply to aas7 po cwru edu andrew spencer nntp posting host slc5 ins cwru edu in previous article thomas tornblom nexus comm se thomas tornblom says in article apr21 ole cdac com ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes am curious about knowing which commericial cars today have engines v4 don know of any v6 legend mr3 mr6 vw golf passat vr6 inline v6 very narrow angle deg one head audi v6 v8 don know of any audi v8 some mbs some bmws v12 jaguar xjs bmw mb please add to the list thanks ssave ole cdac com real life thomas rnblom email thomas tornblom nexus comm se snail mail communicator nexus ab phone box fax uppsala sweden drew from jimb hpindda cup hp com james bruder date mon apr gmt subject re manual xmission advice needed message id hpindda cup hp com organization hp information networks cupertino ca path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com hpscit sc hp com hplextra hpcss01 hpindda jimb newsgroups rec autos references yjwon deca lines don think that transmission fluid change will solve your problem unless you are in an extremely cold climate and using very heavy weight fluid follow the manufacturer recommended oil weight some of the cars have had all standard transmissions or speeds recommend changing the transmission fluid at miles under normal driving conditions ve gone without changing the transmission oil and had to replace the transmission bearings my older cars used weight oil whereas my honda uses motor oil or maybe weight from jimb hpindda cup hp com james bruder date mon apr gmt subject re changing brake fluid is it necessary message id hpindda cup hp com organization hp information networks cupertino ca path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com hpscit sc hp com hplextra hpcss01 hpindda jimb newsgroups rec autos references apr23 gmuvax gmu edu lines agree with jeff reply ve never changed the brake fluid except when having brake job which is usually at around miles alot of freeway driving however will start to do this as preventative maintenance on my new car also there are brake system flushing agents that can be used but the problem is that if any of the agent is left in the system it can cause problems so it been recommended not to use them unless you are certain that you can remove all of the flushing agent just for your info was quoted price of labor and fluid for flushing the brake system this in conjunction with break job so don know if it was more without the brake job this is in the bay area from jimb hpindda cup hp com james bruder date mon apr gmt subject re vibration when brakes are applied message id hpindda cup hp com organization hp information networks cupertino ca path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com hpscit sc hp com hplextra hpcss01 hpindda jimb newsgroups rec autos references hpcc01 corp hp com lines hi javier how are things at corp my old stomping ground was level vibration when applying the brakes can be caused on disc brakes at least by warped rotors when the brakes are applied there results uneven pressure on the rotor turning the rotors by brake shop will remedy this problem as long as there is enough rotor width left for turning within spec there could be some possible front end suspension problem but brake shop should be able to confirm warped rotors by visual inspection which is free path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov nntp server caltech edu wen king from wen king cs caltech edu wen king su newsgroups rec autos subject re mercury villager minivan good buy date apr gmt organization california institute of technology lines message id r8uckinncmf gap caltech edu references r72ejinnk2j gap caltech edu r7cr2innvar sumax seattleu edu nntp posting host neptune cs caltech edu keywords mercury villager minivan van cars jittlov in article r7cr2innvar sumax seattleu edu smorris sumax seattleu edu steven morris writes the villager quest seem like the best of the cravan voyager copies to come along since the mazda mpv the nissan maxima engine paired with the maxima speed auto trans should be an excellent drive train and the rest of the vehicle seems well engineered only the price is controversial hmm the last time checked villager quest does not have maxima engine and is very much under powered for its weight newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu usc elroy jpl nasa gov ames kronos arc nasa gov freud arc nasa gov chucko from chucko freud arc nasa gov chuck fry subject re v4 engines message id apr26 kronos arc nasa gov sender usenet kronos arc nasa gov will edgington wedgingt ptolemy arc nasa gov nntp posting host freud arc nasa gov organization recom technologies code flm nasa ames moffett field ca references pwe slipknot mit edu apr23 ll mit edu date mon apr gmt lines in article apr23 ll mit edu singer ll mit edu matthew singer writes didn the saab sonnett have v4 recall someone telling that it was something like of ford not only the sonett correct spelling but the wagon and sedan used cc or cc from ford of germany this particular motor had degree vee angle balance shaft and siamesed exhaust ports this motor was later stretched into the commonly seen in the capri the could make pretty reasonable power for its size but in the saab it made too much torque for the transmission which had been designed for cylinder stroke chuck fry former sonett iii owner chuck fry chucko freud arc nasa gov this space for rent alone bear responsibility for the claptrap above path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu swrinde elroy jpl nasa gov ames cronkite cisco com kmac from kmac cisco com karl elvis macrae newsgroups rec autos subject ford explorer question and suv review date apr gmt organization tattooed love boys lines distribution world message id rhq6minn449 cronkite cisco com nntp posting host glare cisco com ok so in my ongoing search for sport utility here the latest toyota runner small small small small the interior of this vehical is impossible for large person too bad it would have been the winner otherwise nissan pathfinder very low ceiling my head hit the roof fun on bumps no also has cheap looking interior isuzu trooper class act this is really really nice vehical very comfortable handled ok has really cool grab handles everywhere but it huge and the engine is bit too small for it bulk also the manual shift is weird and kind of awkward buy this if it were cheaper or shorter but at this size and for this price no kept picturing trying to park in in san francisco no thanks chevy blazer cheap looking small not as small as the toyota and nissan but still too small ford explorer this is no sports car and it certainly not for the serious off roader but it big enough to be comfortable without being as huge and heavy as the trooper it engine has plenty of power for everyday driving though it would be nice if it had bit more the automatic tranny is pretty nice head and shoulders above my mazda mpv the steering is not as tight as like but it acceptable the two door has easy to enter back seats easier to get into in fact than the driver seat of the runner and with shorter wheelbase and the easier availability of manual tranny yes manual shift biggot admit it it the one thinking of buying so that said is there anyone out there who has one of these and hates it anyone had any major problems heard any horror stories also any reason to buy the ford over the mazda navajo both being essentially the same vehical thanks karl karl elvis macrae software release support cisco systems kmac cisco com or batman cisco com dod fj1200 shovels and rakes and implements of destruction arlo guthrie path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu pitt edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com decwrl decwrl pacbell com iggy gw vitalink com wetware spunky redbrick com psinntp psinntp cci632 cm from cm cci632 cci com carl mercer newsgroups rec autos subject corvette car cover for sale keywords tan repost message id apr26 cci632 cci com date apr gmt distribution usa organization northern telecom inc network application systems lines not sure if this made it out so ll try again have an ecklar sp corvette car cover for sale the cover is canvas on the outside and felt on the inside it is weather proof and in great condition asking and ll pay shipping originally in october of carl mercer cm cci com evening day newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu swrinde sdd hp com ux1 cso uiuc edu news cso uiuc edu usenet from pp29616 dcl nextsc cso uiuc edu paul park subject re new integra for date tue apr gmt message id c64fkg d3 news cso uiuc edu distribution rec references c63ypt tsegw tse com sender usenet news cso uiuc edu net noise owner organization university of illinois at urbana lines in article c63ypt tsegw tse com pbhandar tsegw tse com parminder bhandari writes ve heard unconfirmed rumours that there is new integra being released for does anybody have any info on this the local sales people know as much as can throw them parms still no sig here we go again now these are just rumors so dont quote me new integra supposedly wedge shaped again hp and all wheel drive in top models then variant called the zx comes later roadster think it gets unveiled at end of summer nothing about an airbag was mentioned but im sure it ll have one along with nice hefty increase in sticker newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu asuvax ncar csn news sinet slb com slcs slb com dcd from dcd se houston geoquest slb com dan day subject re car buying story was christ another dealer service scam message id apr27 slcs slb com sender news slcs slb com news administrator nntp posting host mudd se houston geoquest slb com organization geoquest system inc houston references apr15 slcs slb com apr16 newsgate sps mot com distribution usa date tue apr gmt lines in article apr16 newsgate sps mot com rapw20 email sps mot com writes before you go in find out the invoice prices of the car add reasonable profit for the dealer offer them that price and stick to it whoa watch your terminology dealer invoice is not dealer cost you ll hear lots of ads screaming two dollars over dealer invoice sounds like real deal huh no you know what the dealer invoice also called factory invoice is it piece of paper with numbers on it that the factory sends the dealer what do the numbers signify absolutely nothing it marketing gimmick that the salesman can wave in your face to impress you note that nowhere on the invoice does it claim to be the real price of the car and most ads which mention dealer invoice will end with very fast low voice saying something like invoice may not reflect actual dealer cost actually guarantee it does not reflect actual dealer cost also the reasonable profit for dealer is usually around three percent adjust according to the dealer cost of the car and any options that you want haggle like hell with the salesman over the cost of dealer prep and protection package few squirts of paint and fabric protectant while you re at it ask the salesman to toss in thing or two that doesn cost him any cash my wife and got joyride in twin turbo mitsubishi gt when we bought our mitsubishi mini van path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu msuinfo howell cps msu edu newman from newman cps msu edu timothy newman newsgroups rec autos subject ford probe import car of the year date apr gmt organization department of computer science michigan state university lines distribution usa message id ri9rv jfl msuinfo cl msu edu nntp posting host howell cps msu edu originator newman howell cps msu edu okay okay know the ford probe is made in the us in fact it made in michigan at mazda plant my question are most of the parts from american or japanese sources have been told that most of the us assembly plants for japanese automakers import almost all of the parts used in the vehicles any information anyone has on this will be appreciated tim newman newman cps msu edu newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu darwin sura net newsserver jvnc net nj nec com syl behanna from behanna syl nj nec com chris behanna subject re best radar detector message id apr27 research nj nec com keywords phototraps sender news research nj nec com organization nec systems laboratory inc references apr22 convex com brian hotspare arc nasa gov apr26 westminster ac uk date tue apr gmt lines in article apr26 westminster ac uk jkjec westminster ac uk shazad barlas writes hi now that we have these gatso photo speed traps here was wondering if anyone knows if radar detectors are capable of detecting photo cameras if not are there any other devices which will yup radar detectors that detect ka band will pick up photo radar as it reflected from some poor slob ahead of you that just got nailed btw many photo radar installations in the southern became targets for high powered rifles or had their lenses decorated with cow flop etc not that advocating destruction of public property but you get the picture later chris behanna dod fxwg wide glide jubilee red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb360t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs name agree with any of this anyway was raised by pack of wild corn dogs newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet mdisea mothost lmpsbbs newswatcher user from cpb004 email mot com philip bush subject re plug wires do they really need replacement organization motorola inc schaumburg il usa distribution na date tue apr gmt message id cpb004 followup to rec autos references rgvv2 am4 haven umd edu sender news lmpsbbs comm mot com net news nntp posting host lines in article rgvv2 am4 haven umd edu vadik cs umd edu vadim maslov wrote hi netters went to all tune and lube for routine maintenance and they said need to change plug wires because they are original ones and you driven miles on them had strong suspicion that they just wanted to make money wires had no visible defects and my repair manual doesn recommend any scheduled maintenance for them is it plain vanilla rip off or there can be some backing behind their suggestion to replace wires have ford taurus vadim maslov once had sparking problem with my mustang and simply changing the spark plug wires fixed it philip bush national champion motorola inc schaumburg il sho convention show email cpb004 email mot com rd place concours phone judged path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu usenet coe montana edu news washington edu netnews nwnet net spiff seattleu edu thebes ole rwing eskimo johnn from johnn eskimo com john navitsky newsgroups rec autos subject re ford probe opinions centered around the gt message id c649x8 w0 eskimo com date apr gmt references ufofxkq00imfi4dks0 andrew cmu edu apr20 sco com apr20 ncsu edu bu edu organization eskimo north seattle wa lines in article heiser acs2 bu edu bill heiser writes in article chuck eos ncsu edu chuck kesler writes jeremy mereness zonker cmu edu says can anyone offer any opinions of the ford probe ala how they do in the long run repair records reliability mileage etc ve found mine probe gt to do quite well window problem deleted artical has been trimmed have had my probe looked at twice by my local dealer where purchased the car the first time they made this problem worse the second time after advising them of the service bulletin mentioned on my ford probe mailing list they said they didn know of the bulletin they adjusted the window and made it much better however it now makes scritch scritch noise on rough roads and still squeals when open close the window in wet weather anyone elses do this ve not had any of the air or leakage problems that have been reported but do get the squeal that bill describes live in seattle so the wet weather may be factor ford only gives key with the car mon ford spend an extra few pennies if recall correctly got two keys horn buttons behind air bag in spokes and not in center personal preference you ve got to position the fingers perfectly to make it beep buttons are terrible this is true wondering if this may be safety concern ie if people pound on the place where the airbag lives speaking of the horn was surprised to find that the probe comes with one of those nice merican sounding horns instead of the japanese sounding kind the previous probes had japanese horns no opinion transmission the speed is must have always been speed guy almost every car ve ever owned has been speed because got good deal on this car with the miles knowingly overlooked the fact that it has an automatic but it is pretty high tech automatic it is fully electronicaly controlled speed with the speed is much more fun we opted for the automatic for number of reasons but it still fun and in some ways more practical no shake rattle noises when going over bumps potholes still ditto shakes and rattles has been my main gripe ve gotten them to fix the worst of them but fear that with the rather harsh ride the car will be virtual potpouri of rattles when it gets older too would suspect that this may be true tires vr16 goodyear eagles left hoping for very very very well it sticks to the road like glue even on rough surface yes interior is very very nice too very pleasing to the eye and ergonomically sound definitely ford mazda did very very nice job on this one the car has much more expensive than it actually is look and feel to it ditto yes this car stiff suspension isn for everyone personally like it but if you find it little harsh but otherwise like the car strongly suggest looking into the mx agree check it out don mind it but would say that if it was much stiffer it might be problem how about the r1 rx for suspension well wouldn encourage passenger carrying in the probe unless the person in the front seat likes to sit with his knees to the dash as mentioned in the consumer reports write ups consider the back seat as parcel shelf no biggie to me though if it had been not have bought the car but it definitely not family car true ve heard that the exhaust system has trouble but mine works fine haven heard about this one know that some of the very early probes and maybe had problems with prematurely rusting mufflers which ve had this problem and read about it or at least assume the one had was the one read about in any case what happened was the weld between the muffler and the pipe feeding it ok so not mechanic broke in my case the dealer welded it ordered replacement parts and put them on when they got them suspect this is some sort of design flaw or production flaw in any case have an earlier model and would expect it to be worked out on newer ones in any case it is warrantee repair or they get the keys back from what ve heard it sounds like ford mazda had some qc problems with the probe and probably mx when they first went into production but think these problems have mostly been corrected at this point that almost always to be expected with completely new car like this though have to agree that they seem to have some qc problesm but seriously feel the car design is sound and expect it to do very well second this there seems to be some things that slipped through but the car seems very sound while not perfection what is you get an awful lot for your money bill heiser heiser acs bu edu heiser world std com boston university boston ma btw bill has probe mailing list you might want to subscribe to it if you are interested in more detail try request ford probe world std com did get that right never can remember if the request goes on the front or the back john navitsky johnn eskimo com exercise right today path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu andrew cmu edu ssbc from sam swett ssbc andrew cmu edu newsgroups rec autos subject re review ford taurus sho date tue apr organization freshman ss general carnegie mellon pittsburgh pa lines message id kfr ewc00wa1q6wtt7 andrew cmu edu nntp posting host po4 andrew cmu edu in reply to apr26 ncrcae columbiasc ncr com excerpts from rec autos apr re review ford tauru by mark rice mozart colu in article uupcb cutting hou tx us david bonds cutting hou tx us dav id bonds writes gk occasionally have trouble shifting into reverse the shifter gk refuses to enter the gate and often grind the synchros trying to gk get it into gear ll be watching this carefully in the next couple gk of months enter st wait seconds and then go into reverse they use the same synchros and you ll never at least haven ground em to fit when using this technique or do like the manual says and put it in rd first then you can quickly go into reverse no waiting one more way which works in manual trans cars ve driven and it is my personal favorite the other suggestions above are great but try this one too while pushing the shifter gently towards reverse let the clutch out slowly right to the friction point and the shifter will be pulled into position if you do it right the car won jump backward nor will the gears grind you will just glide back sam newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu ux1 cso uiuc edu news cso uiuc edu uxa cso uiuc edu cka52397 from cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc subject re viper car alarms date tue apr gmt message id c64lh6 nd news cso uiuc edu references c605fr cdo cs uiuc edu apr26 batman bmd trw com sender usenet news cso uiuc edu net noise owner organization university of illinois at urbana lines mcrosbie batman bmd trw com writes in article c605fr cdo cs uiuc edu u1815 cs uiuc edu ronald garnett writes hello auto enthusiasts stuff deleted viper also sells some fancy field disturbance sensor that supposedly detects people approcahing the car this is primarily for convertibles have convertible and have looked at this feature in detail alpine actually makes better radar unit if you want to get one of these it has zones in it that can be shut down independently so that if one side of your car has pedestrian traffic or something else that would trigger an alarm it shuts down the zone or rather pulls it in tighter don see the real benefit to these unless you have convertible that you leave the top down on avoid the voice alarm that can be added to the radar package it talks to people as they walk by saw one installed on lotus esprit the kids would taunt it seeing how close they could get before it warned them to get back the owner finally disabled it which defeats the purpose in my mind stuff deleted ron garnett more stuff deleted merrill my neighbor runs viper distributorship and installs them on all saturns sold in my area anne arundel county md he has an sc with the viper voice alarm installed the alarm does everything turn on the car the radio the heater roll down windows unlock the doors the alarm goes off more frequently on hot days when person walks by it gets sensitive up to about feet in degree heat it isn as bad as convetional siren alarms because it doesn continue to wail it just says protected by viper please stand back and shuts up mainly because the person walks away befuddled chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net sol ctr columbia edu destroyer mudos ganglion david from david ganglion ann arbor mi us david hwang subject re best radar detector valentine message id apr27 ganglion ann arbor mi us organization services references apr20 sequent com r3ghp n9 armory centerline com apr21 sequent com date tue apr gmt lines in article apr21 sequent com troy sequent com troy wecker writes let me explain why feel the bogey counter feature is gimmick radar waves bounce off objects especially metal that is how radar speed measurement works high frequency microwave band approx ghz and is approx ghz is sent out and reflected back to the antenna off of an automobile or other objects if an object is moving doppler shift about hz per mph on band occurs is measured and converted to miles per hour these waves bounce all over the place and they can reflect many times and go in many directions from what understand the valentine can only tell if these microwaves are coming from the front rear or both there are only two antennas if they are coming from both this in interpreted as side bogey bogey counts are determined as sources by their relative strength to one another even if they are reflections of the same source certainly no engineer and really have no scientific basis on which to make this argument but don you answer your own question is the reflected signal shifted at all from the act of being reflected if so wouldn it then be easy for the detector to discriminate between reflections and direct sources here is the problem since the microwaves reflect how does the unit tell if it is source or reflection take valentine and drive to the local grocery store that uses an band radar door opener you can tell by the small black box above the door pointed down at about degree angle and your detector going off when it gets near the valentine will count or bogeys from all directions front rear and sides it doesn say which side the count changes as cars drive by and reflections change is there or sources not at the store go to as drive around with standard detector can only find one source and that is the door opener for the front door troy wecker troy sequent com sequent computer systems beaverton or david hwang david ganglion ann arbor mi us newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net sol ctr columbia edu destroyer mudos ganglion david from david ganglion ann arbor mi us david hwang subject re best radar detector valentine message id apr27 ganglion ann arbor mi us organization services references r3ghp n9 armory centerline com apr21 sequent com apr22 convex com date tue apr gmt lines in article apr22 convex com tobias convex com allen tobias writes in article apr21 sequent com troy sequent com troy wecker writes each valentine is hand tuned to maximum performance is all the radar bands of coverage this of course adds to the labor cost and in turn the cost of the unit live in the backyard of the folks who make the stalker radar system the valentine has saved me many many many times from the stealth revenue enhancement traps of the local area have had all the major brand detectors and imho nothing else even comes close to the v1 don work for valentine am just satisfied user of their unit if you really want the nitty gritty details on all this call the nice folks at valentine research they will be more than happy to explain their perspective on radar detection and analysis methods the calls free at it seems that there are more and more bands available for police radar each month have recently purchased within the last months the bel stw while it is not perfect detector by any means it does do the job fairly well now however pick up car magazine at the airport and read about this super ka wideband which is superset of the ka wideband that this latest generation of detectors was touted as covering so now bel has new series of detectors out that cover all the usual bands ka photo ka wideband as well as the new super ka wideband just as there comes point of diminishing returns when chasing increased pc computing power with faster and faster cpus for the average home consumer at least it seems that there is now the same concern with radar detectors does it make sense to upgrade just months after purchasing my new detector is valentine upgrading their equipment if so it might be worth it for me to upgrade to the valentine was in the market for valentine when purchased the bel but the month waiting time was just too much for me since had inadequate protection with my passport life was much simpler when there was just and band and escort has the best equipment on the market and there was no need to continuously shop for new detector hope that the flood of new radar bands ceases with this new super wideband business allen tobias technical email convex computer corp marketing tobias convex com waterview parkway richardson tx no one cares how much you know until they know how much you care david hwang david ganglion ann arbor mi us path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu csd4 csd uwm edu homi from homi csd4 csd uwm edu sammy newsgroups rec autos subject car tinting date apr gmt organization computing services division university of wisconsin milwaukee lines distribution usa message id rifpjinnra2 uwm edu nntp posting host originator homi csd4 csd uwm edu hello again anyone here done any tinting work what are the best brands out there how about applications heard there was water based brand that you can move around till it just right and you then let it dry like that also would consider having it professionally done how much around wisconsin or chcago area that does decent job fairly cheap college kid thanks for all the info ps what is the maximum legal tint limit homi csd4 csd uwm edu xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos rec autos tech newsgroups rec autos rec autos tech path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net noc near net uunet mcrware adam from adam microware com adam goldberg subject re choice of gauges message id apr26 microware com sender news microware com nntp posting host ren organization microware systems corp des moines iowa references c5ybo4 e5i vcd hp com c5youu gc0 mentor cc purdue edu distribution usa date mon apr gmt lines in article c5ybo4 e5i vcd hp com dmunroe vcd hp com dave gauge writes if you had free reign to design your own instrument cluster which gauges would you choose to have beyond the basic set oil pressure oil temperature coolant temperature manifold vacuum ammeter voltmeter fuel pressure maybe problematic since you either need an electronic sensor gauge pair or you have to mount the damn thing outside the car in addition it be nice to have big red idiot light check guages connected to oil pressure oil temp coolant temp ammeter voltmeter with heaps of guages it hard to look at them all all the time in the case of oil pressure for example you want to know right away if your oil pump goes bad unlike coolant temperature minute or two of oil pressure would be very bad thing tm adam adam adamg microware com or uunet mcrware adamg the above is not to be construed in any way as the official or unofficial statements of microware or any microware employees newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu moe ksu ksu edu osuunx ucc okstate edu constellation uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison from callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james callison subject re super mega automobile sighting exotics together sender usenet constellation ecn uoknor edu usenet administrator message id c64m4u baj constellation ecn uoknor edu date tue apr gmt references apr22 virginia edu r7f9qinnk24 phantom gatech edu c63xp2 kjb constellation ecn uoknor edu nntp posting host uokmax ecn uoknor edu organization engineering computer network university of oklahoma norman ok usa lines in article c63xp2 kjb constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james callison writes in article r7f9qinnk24 phantom gatech edu grahamt phantom gatech edu graham thomas writes jmm4h virginia edu the blade runner writes sighting of such fine beast but remember the mustang will forever be the true king of the road especially the shelby american gt kr king of the road so named to steal gm planned camaro king of the road thunder and maybe the mustang will be forever king of the road the gt isn road legal think the gt actually is street legal although that particular question is moot see the price figures below some gt are street legal some aren this car was right hand drive weren they all like that how much does gt go for how many were made found my shelby american guide there were grand total gt built gt coupes gt road cars gt mk ii gt mk iiis gt roadsters mirages gt mk ivs total additional uncompleted mk iiis twelve of these cars were prototypes racing coupes road coupes eight mk ii coupes lhd mk iiis and rhd mk iiis the other breakdowns follow the above list eg were mk ivs the lhd rhd breakdown is only given on the mk iiis the prices for those which can be bought are around the million mark last heard with projection of some million or thereabouts in it was second only to some penny ante ferarri shelby won the fia world manufacturer cup with his cobras in that was also the year that he retired them from the shelby american racing team in favor of the ford gt program the next year that victory broke year ferarri winning streak well there lotsa info could spout but ll refrain much of this information comes from hot rod magazine shelby american cobra mustang guide which has more info on the shelby american fords than you could ever want to know james james callison microcomputer coordinator of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer not an engineer but play one at work the forecast calls for thunder bird sc it hell of thing killing man you take away all he has and all he ever gonna have will munny unforgiven path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net newsserver jvnc net netnews upenn edu cronkite ocis temple edu picasso ocis temple edu zorro from zorro picasso ocis temple edu john grabowski newsgroups rec autos subject re taurus sable rotor recall message id apr18 cronkite ocis temple edu date apr gmt references apr8 engage pko dec com sender news cronkite ocis temple edu network news readnews organization temple university lines nntp posting host picasso ocis temple edu newsreader tin version pl9 antonio balsamo save the wails balsamo stargl enet dec com wrote from opdbs vm cc latech edu subject taurus sable rotor recall my taurus gl with only on the clock also has rotor warp apparently they haven fixed the problem yet but try convincing the ford service person to fix it for free right tony gads have heard so many horror stories with taurus and sable cars thought these were premium american automobiles the way they sell you think so is ford really no better than in the late when it was turning out tin cans like the granada and the fairmount which would you get taurus or camry or accord john zorro picasso ocis temple edu zorro astro ocis temple edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net newsserver jvnc net netnews upenn edu netnews cc lehigh edu ns1 cc lehigh edu rwf2 from rwf2 ns1 cc lehigh edu robert william fusi newsgroups rec autos subject re getting car need opinions message id apr18 ns1 cc lehigh edu date apr gmt organization lehigh university lines in article apr17 ns1 cc lehigh edu ip02 ns1 cc lehigh edu anny phornprapha writes have as my budget looking for sports or gt car what do you think would be the best buy looking for specific models thanks danny say an rx would be right up there you could easily deal down to it has some of the most impressive performance figures around and automotive magazines eat it up one car to seriously consider in that price range rob fusi rwf2 lehigh edu newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu cactus org boyle from boyle cactus org craig boyle subject re new integra for message id apr27 cactus org organization capital area central texas unix society austin tx references c63ypt tsegw tse com distribution rec date tue apr gmt lines in article c63ypt tsegw tse com pbhandar tsegw tse com parminder bhandari writes ve heard unconfirmed rumours that there is new integra being released for well you can just about set your watch by honda releasing new models every years and an upgrade half way through the cars life the local acura dealership tells me that the new integra will be out very soon may june its hard to find specific details as the integra has been deleted from most of the rest of the world have seen them in canada and australia as well as the but it was discontinued after the first generation in europe normally you can see new japanese models appear in europe or japan first and extrapolate from there reported that the engine would be carryover think craig does anybody have any info on this the local sales people know as much as can throw them parms still no sig newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu moe ksu ksu edu osuunx ucc okstate edu constellation uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison from callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james callison subject re the mustang sender usenet constellation ecn uoknor edu usenet administrator message id c64mux bpr constellation ecn uoknor edu date tue apr gmt references c5xtp7 mtb murdoch acc virgin apr24 magnus acs ohio state edu c5zzd8 kt mentor cc purdue edu nntp posting host uokmax ecn uoknor edu organization engineering computer network university of oklahoma norman ok usa lines in article c5zzd8 kt mentor cc purdue edu marshatt feserve cc purdue edu zauberer writes disclamer this is not flame if you anger easily please go on petebre elof iit edu brenta peterson writes the next mustang will be ford highest profile car it attracts way more attention than the camaro firebird because it heritage is more embedded in the general public don lie to yourself and believe ford will forfeit that fyi they already did oh really when too bad that the current mustang can even compete with the new camaro without using an active imagination the mustang cobra can check it out right now few cars can compare with the camaro think about it for car that will out perform all but few exotics if you are now swearing at me look at the stats they don lie there are no comparable cars in it class certinaly not for its price ehhhh maybe the mustang cobra does good job for lower price and it just taste of what ahead in the th anniversary of the original pony car unless the ford gets the hp romeo you don seriously believe that it was designed for the mark viii only do you hey can you imagine the potential of modified lt folks in few years we will surpass the levels of performance achieved in the late thats scary just think corvettes are almost up to the performance levels of cobra wow in few years they might be up to the performance levels of ford gt wow man just think about it james james callison microcomputer coordinator of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer not an engineer but play one at work the forecast calls for thunder bird sc it hell of thing killing man you take away all he has and all he ever gonna have will munny unforgiven path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net newsserver jvnc net netnews upenn edu netnews cc lehigh edu ns1 cc lehigh edu amh2 from amh2 ns1 cc lehigh edu alois himsl newsgroups rec autos subject re bmw message id apr26 ns1 cc lehigh edu date apr gmt organization lehigh university lines in article apr25 ultb isc rit edu adn6285 ritvax isc rit edu writes looked at that bimmer yesterday it an has about kmi according to owner odometer stopped working at kmi drivess well sounds good body is ok he wants liked the car despite it auto tranny but my wife will be primary driver on this one and she wants auto the radio does not work untill the car warms up and you honk the horn the seems to have leak the sunroof is sticky but operational odometer does not work as mentioned before idle is bit bouncy going from rpm to rpm wipers are slow that teh gripes the owner says that he changed radiator alternator rotors and calipers exhaust the biggest problem is that the owner is shifty sob telling strange stories hate that would never buy from persom like that except how often you see descent for that amount of money he also said that although could bring mechanicin he wouldn let me check the car by taking it to garage suspicious and who knows what milage is on it so let me know what to check for given there practically no rust know there was an article on in few years back anybody remembers what issue mike don buy it all of the things you mentioned will just give you headaches later on also it sounds like the car needs lot of work and as you probably know bmw are not cheap to fix either the owner sounds like shady character just trying to take advantage of someone sure sounds good but you should calculate how much the repairs will be it sounds like you would have to sink in at least to get everything fixed if not more also never trust anyone as far as mileage is concerned who knows how many miles are on it and how it was driven sure people tell you bmw hold up but you have to consider any car is subject to wear and tear for all you know it could have miles on it the thing you have to remember is that this isn the last around either just wait and keep shopping for around you can probably find one that is better needs less repair and has legitimate mileage unlike the one you are considering take it from guy who has been taken couple of times good luck al himsl newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu moe ksu ksu edu osuunx ucc okstate edu constellation uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison from callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james callison subject re the mustang sender usenet constellation ecn uoknor edu usenet administrator message id c64ofu cjt constellation ecn uoknor edu date tue apr gmt references c5zzd8 kt mentor cc purdue edu otnm3b1w165w cybernet cse fau edu nntp posting host uokmax ecn uoknor edu organization engineering computer network university of oklahoma norman ok usa lines in article otnm3b1w165w cybernet cse fau edu vlasis cybernet cse fau edu vlasis theodore writes can put valve with twin garret on yugo and get sec qm thats useless its still yugo that will loose any race on track or on the street yugo that will go mi in seconds will not lose on the street that just too damn quick it might be wrapped around telephone pole at the end of that quarter mile but it will be there alone have you detroit beings compared the ultra long throw stick shifts of the with the mr2 turbo or rx7 ll buy it in mos or you could replace the stock shifter with hurst short throw shifter available from ford motorsport or any number of other after market products to boost the performance of mustang or camaro can you do that with rx or verily with any mr with the detroit aftermarket you can build mustang or camaro which is superior to either car you mention for less than the sticker price of either or the torsen differential of the rx7 compared to the differential of the that sounds in every hairpin turn well gee it works and it doesn break it transmits power to the drive wheels and it essentially zero maintenance and there an aftermarket in parts for ford and chevy rear ends too and bythe way and camaro both have drums on the rear breaks hello this is the well the mustang cobra which from all reports uses the same running gear as mustang has wheel disks can speak for the new camaro but think it does too also stop and think about the markets here the mustang is and always has been mass market sporty car that where the pony car class came from with performance model that why it has the econo box running gear that was also factored into the design of the mustang from the day lee iacocca conceived his baby it was designed as wide market car sporty yet accessible with room for performance tweaking the cars you listed are designed for specific market niche and they both fit those niches very well the mustang at least does well in multiple markets can speak for the camaro james james callison microcomputer coordinator of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer not an engineer but play one at work the forecast calls for thunder bird sc it hell of thing killing man you take away all he has and all he ever gonna have will munny unforgiven newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu usenet coe montana edu news washington edu raven alaska edu acad2 alaska edu asdch from asdch acad2 alaska edu subject re last of the interceptors mad max message id apr26 acad2 alaska edu lines sender news raven alaska edu usenet news system nntp posting host acad2 alaska edu organization university of alaska date tue apr gmt tony believe first of all that max car is an austrailian built car don think its chopped up unit it may be called kangaroo or roo or something similar not sure but do recall reading that austrailian cars used ford engines the ford interceptor is think cop car motor whatever the case that small car with screaming big block ford would probably smoke the tires for miles kilometers hope someone out there can elaborate on the subject smoke em hard smoke em fast later david hertrich lincoln continental newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu rpi scott skidmore edu jdrout from jdrout scott skidmore edu jtd is lost subject re what car is this message id apr23 scott skidmore edu organization skidmore college saratoga springs ny references r3n32innk9p ctron news ctron com date fri apr gmt lines deloreans never had factory v8 they were considering production with turbo or twin turbo forget version of the standard v6 as to who produced it you got me jonathan jdrout scott skidmore edu newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu cactus org boyle from boyle cactus org craig boyle subject re the mustang message id apr27 cactus org organization capital area central texas unix society austin tx references apr24 magnus acs ohio state edu c5zzd8 kt mentor cc purdue edu c64mux bpr constellation ecn uoknor edu date tue apr gmt lines in article c64mux bpr constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james callison writes in article c5zzd8 kt mentor cc purdue edu marshatt feserve cc purdue edu zauberer writes disclamer this is not flame if you anger easily please go on petebre elof iit edu brenta peterson writes the next mustang will be ford highest profile car it attracts way more attention than the camaro firebird because it heritage is more embedded in the general public don lie to yourself and believe ford will forfeit that fyi they already did oh really when too bad that the current mustang can even compete with the new camaro without using an active imagination the mustang cobra can check it out so you think mustang cobra can match the performance of new z28 interesting belief craig who neither owns nor wants to own any gm or ford product craig path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu usenet ins cwru edu cleveland freenet edu cf947 from cf947 cleveland freenet edu chun hung wan newsgroups rec autos subject re getting car need opinions date apr gmt organization case western reserve university cleveland oh usa lines message id qqp2o ba usenet ins cwru edu references apr17 ns1 cc lehigh edu reply to cf947 cleveland freenet edu chun hung wan nntp posting host thor ins cwru edu in previous article ip02 ns1 cc lehigh edu danny phornprapha says have as my budget looking for sports or gt car what do you think would be the best buy looking for specific models thanks danny hey you programmers out there danny phornprapha please consider this ip02 lehigh edu bugs are another endangered earth lucc student konsultant species needing your protection work for an all out sports car go for the rx without the sports suspension which is too stiff for little more practicality and more comfort the nissan zx turbo is good buy and for good dose of luxury the lexus sc300 is perfect with manual transmission of course however the toyota supra is coming out soon and if you like it looks the performance is supposed to be great almost race car like don particulary like the mitsubishi gt or the dodge stealths as they are too heavy and aren very nimble handlers for sports car motion picture major at the brooks institute of photography ca santa barbara and foreign student from kuala lumpur malaysia the mind is the forerunner of all states newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu ux1 cso uiuc edu news cso uiuc edu mrcnext cso uiuc edu brother from brother mrcnext cso uiuc edu jesse mccabe subject there rust on my beamer help date sun apr gmt message id c5ny5y dx news cso uiuc edu sender usenet news cso uiuc edu net noise owner organization university of illinois at urbana lines actually wasn too surprised since bought it with the rust any of you got some ideas of getting rid of this cheaply key word it has eaten all the way through on the door panels can use bondo also is there good paint that will bond to aluminum rims the paint thati was on my rims has peeled off actually there some rust looking stuff on the rims themselves but it comes off pretty easily one more thing have any of you done self painting to car how do you start what do need to do this please help me jesse newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu moe ksu ksu edu ux1 cso uiuc edu news cso uiuc edu dcl nxt07 mchaffee from mchaffee dcl nxt07 michael chaffee subject re chryslers compact lh sedans date sun apr gmt message id c5nzew ui news cso uiuc edu references c5cfob cz acsu buffalo edu ufmi5ew00aww01zm87 andrew cmu edu apr199310165550 almach caltech edu c5fs2i d6m news cso uiuc edu sender usenet news cso uiuc edu net noise owner organization university of illinois at urbana lines cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu carolinafan uiuc writes shoppa almach caltech edu tim shoppa writes thought that the was originally designed for truck not necessarily pickup and then just sort of dropped into the viper frame because it fit and was available friend of mine and saw and heard viper and my friend first response was that it sounded like truck it sounded fine to me but then again don like the whiny noise that most modern sports car engines make btw the viper we saw was moving at about mph just like all of the other cars on the freeway heading east out of la on friday afternoon looked really nice though actually was under the impression that the in the viper was not the that dodge was developing for its new kenworths have always thought it was the exhaust system and not the engine that produced the noise of car well yes the exhaust is where the majority of the noise comes out but the basics tone firing cadence etc are determined by the engine configuration in the case of the viper yes we are discussing huge multicylinder deg engine which will sound somewhat like truck and my understanding btw is that that engine was designed originally with the intention of being ad aptible for either the trucks or the viper and from what ve heard no first hand knowledge it doing pretty good job at both and the best exhaust sound in the world is now and will always be degree dohc colombo designed period michael chaffee mchaffee ux4 cso uiuc edu email mchaffee sumter cso uiuc edu nextmail sig under construction excuse newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet wupost uwm edu cs utexas edu utnut torn watserv2 uwaterloo ca ostracod watstar uwaterloo ca skukreti from skukreti chemical watstar uwaterloo ca sanjai kukreti subject advice on used car message id skukreti chemical watstar uwaterloo ca lines sender news watserv2 uwaterloo ca organization university of waterloo date sun apr gmt hi was looking for some helpful advice university student with about to spend and looking for used car does anyone have any useful advice they could offer to first time buyer not looking for anything sporty just something functional and reliable less maintenance costs anybody have any ideas on what models might suit me thanks sanjai newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet gatech usenet ins cwru edu agate headwall stanford edu nntp stanford edu tedebear from tedebear leland stanford edu theodore chen subject re plymouth sundance dodge shadow experiences message id apr18 leland stanford edu sender news leland stanford edu mr news organization dsg stanford university ca usa references oprsfnx gsusgi1 gsu edu qofeainnn7h shelley washington edu bd0bdc3 news service uci edu distribution usa date sun apr gmt lines in article bd0bdc3 news service uci edu raman translab its uci edu balaji ramanathan writes the part about spending on repairs reminds me of an article read in magazine comparing the year ownership costs of toyota camry and ford taurus or something like that the result which they announced with great flourish was that it cost the same at the end of the period that was their argument to prove that you don go wrong buying the ford taurus over the camry now if remember correctly the camry costs about or so more in initial costs essentially it means that you spend about extra on repairs on the taurus that is ridiculous every time your car needs repairs it is extra hassles loss of time and dozen other things would much rather spend more in initial costs than spend more in repair costs did you account for depreciation seriously doubt that taurus would rack up an extra in repair costs over years teddy path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu po cwru edu aas7 from aas7 po cwru edu andrew spencer newsgroups rec autos subject re wife wants convertible date apr gmt organization case western reserve university cleveland oh usa lines message id qqun2 de1 usenet ins cwru edu references apr16 pts mot com reply to aas7 po cwru edu andrew spencer nntp posting host slc5 ins cwru edu in previous article nuet ke pts mot com keith nuetzman x3153 p7625 says help my wife has informed me that she wants convertible for her next car we live in south fla so we are definitely in the right are for one my wife has mentioned the miata but think it is too small would like to wait for the new mustangs dec think anyone have any opinions on any all convertibles in reasonable price range thanx geo metro lsi drew path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu po cwru edu aas7 from aas7 po cwru edu andrew spencer newsgroups rec autos subject re too fast date apr gmt organization case western reserve university cleveland oh usa lines message id qqv7k e5g usenet ins cwru edu references qkon8 re armory centerline com unisql uucp qn4ev g2 usenet ins cwru edu c5m9o4 j2d constellation ecn uoknor edu reply to aas7 po cwru edu andrew spencer nntp posting host slc5 ins cwru edu in previous article callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james callison says in article qn4ev g2 usenet ins cwru edu aas7 po cwru edu andrew spencer writes in previous article wrat unisql uucp wharfie says in article qkon8 re armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes larger engine that what the sho is slightly modified family sedan with powerful engine they didn even bother improving the brakes that shows how much you know about anything the brakes on the sho are very different inch or forget discs all around vented in front the normal taurus setup is smaller discs front drums rear one saw had vented rears too it was on lot of course the sales man was fool titanium wheels yeah right then later told me they were magnesium more believable but still crap since al is so uch cheaper and just as good tend to agree tho that this still doesn take the sho up to standard for running on regular basis the brakes should be bigger like or so take look at the ones on the corrados where they have braking regulations well let see my bird sc has computer controlled adjustable suspension wheel abs disks vented front rear point belts sturdy passenger compartment aerodynamics good enough for nascar without too much change hp ft lb supercharged v6 wheel independent suspension plus limited slip differential with top speed in excess of mph and rides on rated tires have yet to find r16s in any other speed rating is that up to standard if not why not james james really hate to do this but try reading the damn posts never was bird mentioned the discussion was about sho and stangs not being up to spec do not know about birds only know that the specs quoted for the sho by previous poster sounded little anemic for me to say that it was up to snuff this does not in any way disencourage me from wishing to own one nor does it make it bad car it merely means that think ford could have added that extra bit of safety and tossed in larger brakes as the wheels are plenty large enough for them to fit if memory serves right which it may very well not and the motor plenty powerful enough to need it ya drew newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu news cso uiuc edu dcl nxt07 mchaffee from mchaffee dcl nxt07 michael chaffee subject re warning please read date sun apr gmt message id c5o3r6 h3 news cso uiuc edu references c5k9m5 ku constellation ecn uoknor edu apr17 nuscc nus sg sender usenet news cso uiuc edu net noise owner organization university of illinois at urbana lines matmcinn nuscc nus sg matthew macintyre at the national university of senegal writes callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james callison writes not going to argue the issue of carrying weapons but would ask you if you would have thought seriously about shooting kid for setting off your alarm can think of worse things in the world glad you got out of there before they did anything to give you reason to fire your gun think people have right to kill to defend their property why not be honest do you really care more about scum than about your car can tell if matt is being sarcastic here or not but to be honest many automobiles are worth far more to their owners in value and investment than the people that would take them don have figures on average property tax in the or how much of it is allocated for housing projects inferior public schools jails or the like but have feeling that the amount the government steals from an honest productive citizen to breed this trash is significantly less than the value of many automobiles and for those who will argue that the animals out there stealing cars and everything else not to mention committing completely senseless acts of violence such as rape cannot be valued in terms of money because they are human beings submit that they are not human beings jim callison think is on the right track and chintan amin remarked earlier that we cannot blame environment for the actions of single criminal couldn agree more one could trace any crime back to the environment upbringing of the criminal should we let all of them out from pickpockets to rapists to inside traders because what they did wasn their fault where does one draw the line michael chaffee mchaffee ux4 cso uiuc edu email mchaffee sumter cso uiuc edu nextmail sig under construction excuse newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu news cso uiuc edu dcl nxt07 mchaffee from mchaffee dcl nxt07 michael chaffee subject re viper date sun apr gmt message id c5o45j nk news cso uiuc edu references c5jnha ib murdoch acc virginia edu sender usenet news cso uiuc edu net noise owner organization university of illinois at urbana lines rmt6r faraday clas virginia edu roy matthew thigpen writes last night had dream that my dad bought viper took it out for test drive without his knowledge and had to push it all the way home just to avoid ticket wierd dream wonder what it means vell let see vas you muzzah in der passenger seat or vas you muzzah in der leefing room vit you fazah feeling tad bit freudian doubtless inspired by the magnificent phallic ness some word of the viper newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu moe ksu ksu edu osuunx ucc okstate edu constellation uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison from callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james callison subject re warning please read sender usenet constellation ecn uoknor edu usenet administrator message id c5o2yr cs1 constellation ecn uoknor edu date sun apr gmt references c5k9m5 ku constellation ecn uoknor edu apr17 nuscc nus sg nntp posting host uokmax ecn uoknor edu organization engineering computer network university of oklahoma norman ok usa lines in article apr17 nuscc nus sg matmcinn nuscc nus sg matthew macintyre at the national university of senegal writes callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james callison writes not going to argue the issue of carrying weapons but would ask you if you would have thought seriously about shooting kid for setting off your alarm can think of worse things in the world glad you got out of there before they did anything to give you reason to fire your gun think people have right to kill to defend their property why not be honest do you really care more about scum than about your car yo watch the attributions didn say that again this isn an appropriate forum for discussions on whether you should shoot someone for property damage vandalism theft but every responsible gun owner realizes that there are limits and the punishment must fit the crime mean think about it is really harmless prank worth killing over as said the situation described punks setting off alarms and taunting people to come out could turn very ugly very quickly and it is worth being prepared when your life is potentially on the line james james callison microcomputer coordinator of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer not an engineer but play one at work the forecast calls for thunder bird sc it hell of thing killing man you take away all he has and all he ever gonna have will munny unforgiven newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu news cso uiuc edu dcl nxt07 mchaffee from mchaffee dcl nxt07 michael chaffee subject re manual shift bigots date sun apr gmt message id c5o4nh su news cso uiuc edu references qn2lo c9s vela acs oakland edu c5liw2 cax news rich bnr ca apr17 engr washington edu sender usenet news cso uiuc edu net noise owner organization university of illinois at urbana lines eliot lanmola engr washington edu eliot writes in article c5liw2 cax news rich bnr ca peon email eric youngblood writes in article qn2lo c9s vela acs oakland edu mje pookie pass wayne edu michael edelman writes the big disadvantage of automatics is the hp they consume that never gets to the wheels in this respect they are at disadvantage to manual only when the torque converter is not locked up there are autos out there with converter lock up in nd rd and th gears performance converter lockup is purely irrelevant the lockup only occurs at light throttle settings and serves only to improve mpg mind you converter clutch does lovely job of improving mpg but the additional mechanical advantage of the converter gives you more acceleration vs locked converter clutch than its inherent losses take away michael chaffee mchaffee ux4 cso uiuc edu email mchaffee sumter cso uiuc edu nextmail sig under construction excuse xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec autos misc wanted path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet think com enterpoop mit edu uhog mit edu news bbn com gyu from gyu bbn com george yu newsgroups rec autos misc wanted subject re the kuebelwagen date apr gmt lines message id lt1u5linn3tm news bbn com references wanderer camelot c5k5co f09 mentor cc purdue edu nntp posting host bbn com thwang mentor cc purdue edu tommy hwang writes sorry for the mis spelling but forgot how to spell it after my series of exams and no on hand reference here is it still possible to get those cute wwii vw jeep wanna be replica would be great think tkh according to the complete guide to specialty cars th edition from crown publishing it the vw kubelwagen dots over the the company is wolfkam box vika oslo norway voice line fax line an excerpt from the blurb this fine kubel clone from wolfkam is very close copy of the original and offers the same all weather and cross country capabilities as its wwii forebears the robust fiberglass body kit is very complete and includes all the hardware you will need except for your own vw donor car the phone number is the entire at dialing sequence call and ask for karl torum or send cash or international money order for complete literature package george be happy to share what info have on other kit cars and kit car manufacturers looking for used or partially completed porsche speedster convertible replica from intermeccanica appreciate any leads or advice stories from any owners out there path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu ogicse reed henson n8846069 from n8846069 henson cc wwu edu barryb newsgroups rec autos subject re plymouth sundance dodge shadow experiences message id apr18 henson cc wwu edu date apr gmt article henson apr18 references c5l9ow um noose ecn purdue edu qn88dinn8vk master cs rose hulman edu distribution usa organization western washington university lines daubendr nextwork rose hulman edu darren daubenspeck writes they are pretty much junk stay away from them they will be replaced next year with all new models junk they ve made the lists for years due to their excellent handling and acceleration they have been around since about oh or so they re not the newest on the lot and mileage is about five to eight mpg under the class leader you can get into hp shadow for the turbo bit more and droptop for how can car be any good that has written on the back with crooked letters as if year old had written it hehhehehehahaha about as silly as crysler attemps to make the label on the back of some of their other cars appear like they are mercedes sorry couldn resist barryb path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu linac att att bigtop drutx druwa klf from klf druwa att com franklinkl newsgroups rec autos subject re v4 v6 v8 v12 vx summary how about beamer message id drutx att com date apr gmt references apr23 cs tulane edu r8ufk fr7 usenet ins cwru apr24 magnus acs ohio state edu sender news drutx att com lines in article apr24 magnus acs ohio state edu bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu brian queiser writes cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes aas7 po cwru edu andrew spencer writes think that it is technicaly known as degree vee configuration could be wrong this is how ve seen them referred to then what is flat engine flat deg horizonatlly opposed usually it also equals boxer however think the term is traditionally reserved for and and firing order matters this was talked about here in many months back can remember the consensus examples ferrari tr is flat boxer porsche is flat subaru impreza is flat regards not to inject non automotive note to this thread but the bmw opposed twin used in motorcycles for long time is and always has been known as boxer ken franklin they say there heaven for people who wait ama and some say it better but say it ain gwrra rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints dod the sinners are lots more fun know only the good die young newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com nigel msen com math fu berlin de informatik tu muenchen de lrz muenchen de regent crh from crh regent technik tu muenchen dbp de christian huebner subject re last of the interceptors mad max message id crh regent technik tu muenchen de sender news regent technik tu muenchen de news system organization technical university of munich germany references apr26 acad2 alaska edu date tue apr gmt lines asdch acad2 alaska edu writes tony believe first of all that max car is an austrailian built car don think its chopped up unit the last v8 in mad max is based on holden australia holden is linked with gm vauxhall gb and so they re quite unlikely to use ford parts chris crh regent technik tu muenchen de path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu linac att att bigtop drutx druwa klf from klf druwa att com franklinkl newsgroups rec autos subject re v4 v6 v8 v12 vx summary ferrari not true boxer message id drutx att com date apr gmt references apr23 cs tulane edu r8ufk fr7 usenet ins cwru apr24 engr washington edu sender news drutx att com lines in article apr24 engr washington edu eliot lanmola engr washington edu eliot writes in article apr24 magnus acs ohio state edu bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu brian queiser writes examples ferrari tr is flat boxer porsche is flat subaru impreza is flat think you got it the other way round the ferrari flat is degree v12 and not true boxer while the subaru and porsche are true boxers don know about the vw bug though but suspect that it is also true boxer eliot are you serious the auto that had lot to do with bringing the term boxer to the popular forefront was the ferrari berlinetta boxer or the bb had liter opposed cylinder engine ken franklin they say there heaven for people who wait ama and some say it better but say it ain gwrra rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints dod the sinners are lots more fun know only the good die young path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel wupost howland reston ans net ira uka de gmd de dearn esoc mcarron organization esoc european space operations centre date tue apr cet from mcarron esoc bitnet message id mcarron esoc bitnet newsgroups rec autos subject re nissan nomenclature was re manual shift bigots wanted references c5liw2 cax news rich bnr ca r4u27inn5e phantom gatech edu oasys dt navy mil apr26 westminster ac uk lines the european version is called sx and have liter engine with turbo and have more power than the us version hp it goes from to km in sec and have top speed of km miles just purchased one new and am looking for repair book could not find one in france and germany does anybody knows where to find one is there one in the uk probabaly no use to look in the us as the sx have here different motor am very pleased with the car and have no problem with it but like to have good technical documentation about the car own regards path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel wupost howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu sgiblab munnari oz au goanna escargot minyos xx rmit oz au rxkgre from rxkgre minyos xx rmit oz au geof evans newsgroups rec autos subject re v4 v6 v8 v12 vx message id riu6einn3jt escargot xx rmit oz au date apr gmt references apr21 ole cdac com organization royal melbourne institute of technology lines nntp posting host minyos xx rmit oz au ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes am curious about knowing which commericial cars today have engines v4 don know of any v6 legend mr3 mr6 v8 don know of any v12 jaguar xjs please add to the list thanks ssave ole cdac com is this joke geof evans domain rxkgre minyos xx rmit oz au if they really wanna know tell em that god was drunk newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu wupost udel rochester cornell newsstand cit cornell edu piccolo cit cornell edu crux1 pfk1 from pfk1 crux1 cit cornell edu philip kromer iv subject does car wash hurt the cars finish message id pfk1 crux1 cit cornell edu summary car wash better or worse than nothing hand washing detailing sender usenet piccolo cit cornell edu nntp connect nntp posting host crux1 cit cornell edu organization cornell university date apr gmt lines can taking the car to car wash hurt the car finish and if so is it better to hand wash it about once month or just take it to the car wash anyway are detailing places worth the money if do good careful job on washing and waxing is detail place going to be worth it reply to my email address pfk1 crux1 cit cornell edu pk4 my views reflect cornell sue them dry path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu wupost udel bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu csus edu nic csu net opus vpopesc newsgroups rec autos subject tires comparison message id apr26 nic csu net from vpopesc opus uucp valentin popescu date apr pdt distribution world organization california state university lost angels nntp posting host opus calstatela edu lines eve am looking to buy new p195 r15 tires or hr don have much to spend but would like tire that will last does anyone have any experience with the following brands riken falken bfg general there are others but these can find here for under like said am mostly interested in threadwear then speed since hardly get to drive them over or mph also is it true that noone will give you warranty on such tires according to tire dealer finally do hr tires last longer than tires threadwear again or is that strictly speed factor thanks for any replies whatever doesn kill me makes me stronger internet vpopesc calstatela edu bitnet vpopesc csla bitnet newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu rphroy kocrsv01 c23st from c23st kocrsv01 delcoelect com spiros triantafyllopoulos subject re lexus and infiniti message id apr26 kocrsv01 delcoelect com sender news kocrsv01 delcoelect com usenet news account organization delco electronics corp references apr23 msus1 msus edu bd8311e news service uci edu issa cwis date mon apr gmt lines in article issa cwis issa cwis unomaha edu issa el hazin writes don the numbers in the car names above refair to the engine size in liters ls400 litre engine sc300 liter sport coupe and q45 liter similar kinda to bmw and mb nameing deal issa funny thought the numbering scheme for both lexus and infiniti was related to sticker price more than anything else infiniti g20 around q45 around lexus es250 rip around lexus es300 around etc is there conspiracy theory there spiros spiros triantafyllopoulos c23st kocrsv01 delcoelect com software technology delco electronics gm hughes electronics kokomo in post therefore armm path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu pitt edu gatech udel wupost uunet pipex uknet mcsun chsun hslrswi kevinh from kevinh hslrswi hasler ascom ch kevinh newsgroups rec autos subject re v4 engines message id apr27 hasler ascom ch date apr gmt references pwe slipknot mit edu apr23 ll mit edu apr26 kronos arc nasa gov sender news hasler ascom ch reply to kevinh hasler ascom ch organization ascom hasler ag lines originator kevinh nath in article apr26 kronos arc nasa gov chucko freud arc nasa gov chuck fry writes in article apr23 ll mit edu singer ll mit edu matthew singer writes didn the saab sonnett have v4 recall someone telling that it was something like of ford not only the sonett correct spelling but the wagon and sedan used cc or cc from ford of germany this particular motor had degree vee angle balance shaft and siamesed exhaust ports this motor was later stretched into the commonly seen in the capri think it was the reverse the v4 being of the v6 the could make pretty reasonable power for its size but in the saab it made too much torque for the transmission which had been designed for cylinder stroke it was also the worst engine that ford europe have ever made bloody awful reputation it most successful application being the transit van saab gave up with this motor and then made the triumph half stag v8 under license believe but with litre capacity and perhaps different arrangement for the cylinder head studs before developing their own straight four from the triumph kevinh hasler ascom ch newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech concert uvaarpa murdoch hopper jmh from jmh hopper virginia edu jeffrey hoffmeister subject re impala ss going into message id c654hg qo murdoch acc virginia edu sender usenet murdoch acc virginia edu organization itc uva community access unix internet project references aa10023 heartland bradley edu date tue apr gmt lines still can understand all the hype about the impalla ss it still has the ugly caprice body orca on wheels the caprice was the worst new body style to come out of detroit ever now just because the lt1 engine and few suspension tweeks are being added its still ugly its still barge gm answer to everything is throw in v8 and someone will buy it or add some plastic ground affects and few stickers and call it gt gtz or ss and someone will buy it imho gm needs to scrap the caprice body completely and start over with blank sheet of paper no minor modification wheel well treatments tail amp modification or nose re design or even the lt1 engine will help the existing caprice jeff path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu pitt edu gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu usenet coe montana edu news washington edu lanmola eliot from eliot lanmola engr washington edu eliot newsgroups rec autos subject re best radar detector valentine message id apr27 engr washington edu date apr gmt references r3ghp n9 armory centerline com apr21 sequent com apr22 convex com apr27 ganglion ann arbor mi us organization skulls us lines nntp posting host lanmola engr washington edu re extended ka bands recently bought band detector you guys must all think nuts right well did little research into ka usage in this area and found out that ka is not currently being used in this state as well as surrounding states here how found out cop friend who did spend time nailing speeders doesn even know what ka is he heard of which is what they use here and explained that ka is used for photo radar etc he then said yeah ka stands for automatic duuhh he then went on to say that plans were being made for getting laser guns as far as going high tech were concerned but he didn know too much my year old band whistler was consistently going off at speed traps even the real sneaky ones when called the escort shop they confirmed that ka is not used here or in surrounding states they did claim that laser was being used lot here which was quite skeptical of so in the end instead of spending lot of money and or waiting months for state of the art detector got low priced high performance band escort incidentally its performance is equal to their top of the line model in and band detection know that escort has been surpassed by other brands lately but ve never fully relied on detector and was convinced that the escorts would be at least quite good which was good enough for me and my wallet eliot xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu misc consumers rec autos newsgroups misc consumers rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net agate dog ee lbl gov newshub nosc mil nosc spectra johnson from johnson spectra com boyd johnson subject re automotive crash test performance and maintenance stats message id apr18 spectra com organization spectragraphics corporation distribution usa date sun apr gmt lines wrote is there resource available to the consumer comparing all of the makes and models of automobiles trucks vans etc for survivability in crash of different severities also ve found very little objective data comparing different vehicles for handling pick up braking expected maintenance etc recall years ago consumer reports annual buyer guide was much more informative in those aspects than it is now thanks to reply from someone looked little further and found what was looking for the april cr magazine has most of the above things despite recent articles here the ratings looked pretty good for relative comparison purposes unfortunately the crash test comparisons didn include half of the cars comparing anybody know how honda civic hatchbacks and toyota tercels fare in an accident boyd johnson nosc spectra com johnson san diego california intermittent newsfeed at best and only to selected groups my opinions certainly don match those of my employer newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet spsgate mogate newsgate usenet from markm bigfoot sps mot com mark monninger subject re car buying story was christ another dealer service scam message id apr27 newsgate sps mot com sender usenet newsgate sps mot com nntp posting host reply to rapw20 email sps mot com organization sps references apr27 slcs slb com distribution usa date tue apr gmt lines in article apr27 slcs slb com dcd se houston geoquest slb com dan day writes in article apr16 newsgate sps mot com rapw20 email sps mot com writes before you go in find out the invoice prices of the car add reasonable profit for the dealer offer them that price and stick to it whoa watch your terminology dealer invoice is not dealer cost that probably true but it the closest to it that you re going to get the actual dealer cost depends on lot of things and even the dealer probably doesn know exactly what it will be until all the factory kick backs incentives etc are paid and that often depends on his volume at the end of the month quarter whatever it might be funny munber but it all you have to start with except the sticker and anyone who pays sticker price is really being ripped off mark path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu pitt edu dsinc vu vlsi ee vill edu mobasser from mobasser vu vlsi ee vill edu bijan mobasseri newsgroups rec autos subject re v4 v6 v8 v12 vx message id c65cvt um vu vlsi ee vill edu date apr gmt references r6kcqinnhmp sumax seattleu edu apr22 engr washingt apr24 magnus acs ohio state edu organization villanova university lines we have seen lots of discussion on automobile engine configuration let me ask similar question from the aviation field you must have seen images of prop planes with all cylinders exposed have seen up to cylinders positioned radially in circular fashion with the prop at the center of the circle this arrangement always brings up geometric dilemma how can one crankshaft throw accomodate rods or are the pistons displaced but not visible from the outside bijan newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com decwrl pa dec com nntpd2 cxo dec com nntpd lkg dec com peavax mlo dec com helix enet dec com sontakke from sontakke helix enet dec com vikas sontakke subject re review ford taurus sho message id apr27 peavax mlo dec com sender usenet peavax mlo dec com usenet news system organization digital equipment corporation references kfr ewc00wa1q6wtt7 andrew cmu edu date tue apr gmt lines in article kfr ewc00wa1q6wtt7 andrew cmu edu sam swett ssbc andrew cmu edu writes one more way which works in manual trans cars ve driven and it is my personal favorite the other suggestions above are great but try this one too while pushing the shifter gently towards reverse let the clutch out slowly right to the friction point and the shifter will be pulled into position if you do it right the car won jump backward nor will the gears grind you will just glide back sam can vouch for this method in my sho this is the only sure way of putting in the reverse without any problem every time vikas sontakke digital equipment corporation maynard ma internet sontakke helix enet dec com uucp decvax ucbvax allegra decwrl helix enet sontakke sontakke helix enet decwrl dec com newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net torn nott bnrgate bnr co uk uknet mcsun sunic ericom st83 etxmst from etxmst sta ericsson se markus strobl subject re license plates message id apr27 ericsson se sender news ericsson se nntp posting host st83 ericsson se reply to etxmst sta ericsson se organization ericsson telecom ab references rjdpp anl ollie solbourne com date tue apr gmt lines in article anl ollie solbourne com guerra solbourne com edi guerra writes would like to know if anyone still has copy of the list of license plates that were posted some time ago regarding special names and sayings thxs edig me too markus path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu moe ksu ksu edu ux1 cso uiuc edu roundup crhc uiuc edu cheetah csl uiuc edu strait from strait cheetah csl uiuc edu jeffrey strait newsgroups rec autos subject bmw parts date apr gmt organization the university of illinois lines distribution world message id rjjncinnhsd roundup crhc uiuc edu nntp posting host cheetah csl uiuc edu greetings automobile enthusiasts can anyone tell me if there is mail order company that sells bmw parts discounted cheaper than the dealerships sorry if it faq email replies very much appreciated thanks jeff strait strait uicsl csl uiuc edu university of illinois phone if you ladies leave this island if you survive basic recruit training you will be weapon minister of death praying for war path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu ames olivea sgigate sgiblab munnari oz au uniwa cheekeen from cheekeen tartarus uwa edu au desmond chan newsgroups rec autos subject re honda clutch chatter date apr gmt organization the university of western australia lines message id rjk5s qi5 uniwa uwa edu au references hpindda cup hp com jgoss apr22092852 gaia torolab ibm com nntp posting host tartarus uwa edu au newsreader nn version also experience this kinda problem in my bmw during cold start ups the clutch seems to be sticky and everytime drive out for about km the clutch seems to stick onto somewhere that if depress the clutch the whole chassis moves along but after preheating it becomes smooth again think that your suggestion of being some humudity is right but there should be some remedy also found out that my clutch is already thin but still alright for couple grand more path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu pitt edu camp wpic pitt edu chris from chris camp wpic pitt edu chris emerson newsgroups rec autos subject those nasty insurance people keywords insurance message id chris camp wpic pitt edu date apr gmt sender news pitt edu distribution usa organization university of pittsburgh medical center wpic lines hello everyone have an insurance question allstate insurance situation person wrecks car car is drivable to dealer person reports accident no other cars involved driver estimates damage cost exceedes cost of car insurance people claim car is totalled because of exceeding repair costs person says wwhhhaatttt but drove the car here and takes it to another place other place estimates in damage less than the dealer one more hitch the car is registered in florida but the accident occurred in pennsyvania question should the insurance recognize and pay for the damages of this now fixable car even though they prematurly declared totalled please respond via mail if you think you know anything about this sort of thing chris camp wpic pitt edu thanks newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net darwin sura net cos cos bob1 from bob1 cos com bob blackshaw subject re ford probe import car of the year message id bob1 cos organization corporation for open systems references ri9rv jfl msuinfo cl msu edu distribution usa date tue apr gmt lines in ri9rv jfl msuinfo cl msu edu newman cps msu edu timothy newman writes okay okay know the ford probe is made in the us in fact it made in michigan at mazda plant my question are most of the parts from american or japanese sources have been told that most of the us assembly plants for japanese automakers import almost all of the parts used in the vehicles any information anyone has on this will be appreciated ford aimed for us content when they designed the new probe in actual practice it came out to us content if my is any example the that is imported may be the engine and brakes at least the had missybitchy brakes tim newman newman cps msu edu bob newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu ames purdue mentor cc purdue edu noose ecn purdue edu rainbow ecn purdue edu rjwade from rjwade rainbow ecn purdue edu robert wade subject re saturn extended warranty message id c65eri lf9 noose ecn purdue edu sender news noose ecn purdue edu usenet news organization purdue university engineering computer network references r6bqginn4ei roundup crhc uiuc edu u59985 uicvm uic edu c63rrw g9w austin ibm com date tue apr gmt lines in article c63rrw g9w austin ibm com login austin ibm com writes ve owned saturn for and year and half and didn have the extended warranty but just traded it in for for reasons that won mention unless someone wants to know opted for the year mile extended with deductible it sorta like buying health insurance you could say that you re not sick now and haven been sick for while but you can guarantee that you won be sick tomorrow little money invested today is better than being sick tomorrow and now being able to pay for it or having to pay lot more tomorrow than you can today justify all you want extended warranties are ripoff high profit item for the dealer and you didn buy yr you get yr free so what you bought is yr and you still have to pay every time you use this great warranty better to put your money in the bank and use it for repairs if when you need it considering that your last car was only years old are you sure you will even keep this new one past it free warranty period btw typical profit on extended warranties is around that right only of the money needs to go into the collective pot to pay for any future repairs that the group of extended warranty people collect newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net agate ames purdue mentor cc purdue edu noose ecn purdue edu rainbow ecn purdue edu rjwade from rjwade rainbow ecn purdue edu robert wade subject re the mustang message id c65eyo lgi noose ecn purdue edu sender news noose ecn purdue edu usenet news organization purdue university engineering computer network references c5zzd8 kt mentor cc purdue edu otnm3b1w165w cybernet cse fau edu date tue apr gmt lines and bythe way and camaro both have drums on the rear breaks hello this is the vlasis theodore good point you would think by now that most car companies would just make wheel disc standard and be done with it can it really cost that much more for disc especially when you think of the economies of scale they would gain by just making them all wheel disc no seperate parts numbers and orders etc btw the z28 and trans am and formula have wheel disc but the bottom line models have the rear drums newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net torn nott bnrgate bnr co uk uknet pcl jkjec from jkjec westminster ac uk shazad barlas subject re is car saftey important message id apr27 westminster ac uk organization university of westminster references apr20 bnr ca conradie firga sun ac za date tue apr gmt lines safety is an important criterium for me when buying car won buy small car like civic or whatever great safety handling speed for me evengreater safety handling speed for the rich ie merc sel path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net news ans net malgudi oar net news ysu edu psuvm cgs103 organization penn state university date tue apr edt from cgs103 psuvm psu edu message id cgs103 psuvm psu edu newsgroups rec autos subject re changing oil by yourself idiots references apr26 cs tulane edu lines in article apr26 cs tulane edu mark luke cray com mark dean says quit whining on the net about changing your oil yourselves if you can handle such simple procedure as changing your oil then get somebody else to do it and get the hell off the network md cool off these people have as much right to be here as you do btw is this the kind of friendly helpful service we should expect from cray newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu usc elroy jpl nasa gov ufo hayduke nancy from nancy hayduke nancy feagans subject re dumbest automotive concepts of all time message id apr27 jpl devvax jpl nasa gov sender usenet jpl devvax jpl nasa gov for nntp so rrn will be able to post nntp posting host hayduke organization jet propulsion laboratory nasa references apr24 ns1 cc lehigh edu bense oasys dt navy mil date tue apr gmt lines in article bense oasys dt navy mil bense oasys dt navy mil ron bense writes in article apr24 ns1 cc lehigh edu amh2 ns1 cc lehigh edu alois himsl writes in article apr15 jpl devvax jpl nasa gov nancy hayduke nancy feagans writes ashtrays and cigarette lighters these should be an option you forget that the cigarette lighter plug is essential for plugging in radar detectors and lights the ashtrays are also essential because they are great places to keep change and tokens wouldn you rather have some type of standard electrical plug instead of that fire hazard waiting to happen adaptor know would and would also prefer to have sensibly placed cup holders instead of an ashtray my car came with coin holders already built in ron exactly you took the words right out of my mouth ron nancy feagans jet propulsion lab nancy jpl devvax jpl nasa gov not shred of evidence exists in favor of the idea that life is serious newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sol ctr columbia edu destroyer cs ubc ca newsserver sfu ca sfu ca djanzen from djanzen kits sfu ca dart subject corolla spd message id djanzen sfu ca sender news sfu ca organization simon fraser university burnaby canada date fri apr gmt lines hi there maybe you can help me have an corolla with speed as the subject line says the gearbox seems excessivly clunky used to have an corolla and it was also somewhat clunky but it had more miles on it and it wasn nearly as bad as this car is there fluid in the speed case if there is could it just be low or in need of change as recall only the autos have fluid or am just mistaken please no flames for owning an import also have an old dodge but it not in very good shape these days thanks derek newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu usc sol ctr columbia edu destroyer cs ubc ca newsserver sfu ca sfu ca gibbonsa from gibbonsa fraser sfu ca darren gibbons subject datsun nissan cars message id gibbonsa sfu ca sender news sfu ca organization simon fraser university burnaby canada date sun apr gmt lines well the opel deal fell through now looking at datsun for sale in our local buy sell any previous owners have any experience with these cars besides looking for rust good compression low miles and all the other usual car things one looks for is there anything special about these cars that should watch out for how about things like handling performance mileage etc these cars look hot to my eyes at least and bear more than passing resemblance to the aston martin db4 zagato sp which has to be one of the most beatiful cars ever made what is the difference between the zx is rather unappealing imho but the other cars are decent thanks again darren gibbons gibbonsa sfu ca path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com network ucsd edu news cerf net pagesat olivea bu edu cvbnet timewarp rbemben from rbemben timewarp prime com rich bemben newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re its still cold but message id cvbnetprime com date apr gmt expires apr gmt references c51kpo synoptics com snz morgan demon co uk apr6 linus mitre org sender postnews cvbnetprime com distribution usa organization computervision corp bedford ma lines in article apr6 linus mitre org cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes tend to keep my bedroom window open during the winter and have woken up to find frost on my bedspread but still get cold below about usually on the part that sticks out of the bottom of my helmet maybe it time to get noj quiet rider cool conjure up this image of bd in doonesbury so dean how long have you been sleeping with your helmet on rich bemben dod rbemben timewarp prime com triumph bonneville fear not the evil men do in the name of evil but heaven protect us from the evil men do in the name of good newsgroups rec autos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu usc elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl pacbell com iggy gw vitalink com psinntp psinntp megatest mithril alung from alung megatest com aaron lung subject re waxes polishes message id c65yk6 ktw megatest com keywords turtlewax color match liquid glass organization megatest corporation references apr27 magnus acs ohio state edu distribution usa date tue apr gmt lines in article apr27 magnus acs ohio state edu bbarnard magnus acs ohio state edu bret barnard writes with spring upon us it time to start waxing again was wondering if anyone had any suggestions about waxes and polishes know carnuba wax is often recommended on the net but was wondering about the colored waxes to cover up some minor scratches do the colored waxes give on overall good quality shine are they good for the paint or clear coat what about liquid glass is it clear polish which dries clear thus filling scratches is it good for the paint clear coat please post with both good and bad experiences and hey let name names brands here all gimmicks stick with plain ol carnauba wax that non abrasive eagle meguiars turtle wax and few others are good examples the colored waxes just color in the scratches so they re not so apparent the better approach is to buff minor scratches completely off with cleaner mild abrasive never tried liquid glass although still have this sample they sent me few years back aaron xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec collecting cards rec sport baseball rec sport baseball fantasy path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet caen uvaarpa gems vcu edu cabell vcu edu csc2imd newsgroups rec collecting cards rec sport baseball rec sport baseball fantasy subject re florida sucks message id apr13 cabell vcu edu from csc2imd cabell vcu edu ian derby date tue apr gmt expires sat may gmt references apr pilot njin net ofmjgpk00wbkm4d7zl andrew cmu edu organization virginia commonwealth university lines this talk about the phillies winning the nl east is scary very scary don get me wrong im phillies fan but as late as last year they looked helpless the funny thing was they did have lot of injuries in spring training that basically killed their chances of course don forget the dykstra wrist injury in the first or second game newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net europa eng gtefsd com emory swrinde cs utexas edu csc ti com tilde csc ti com m2 dseg ti com ernest cmptrc irwin from irwin cmptrc lonestar org irwin arnstein subject re recommendation on duc summary what it worth message id c5g315 cmptrc lonestar org sender irwin arnstein date tue apr gmt distribution usa expires sat may gmt organization computrac inc richardson tx keywords ducati gts how much lines have line on ducati gts model with on the clock runs very well paint is the bronze brown orange faded out leaks bit of oil and pops out of st with hard accel the shop will fix trans and oil leak they sold the bike to the and only owner they want and am thinking more like any opinions out there please email me thanks it would be nice stable mate to the beemer then ll get jap bike and call myself axis motors tuba irwin honk therefore am computrac richardson tx irwin cmptrc lonestar org dod r75 path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet europa eng gtefsd com gatech udel darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu linac att bu edu cvbnet timewarp rbemben from rbemben timewarp prime com rich bemben newsgroups rec motorcycles subject safe driving prcatices message id cvbnetprime com date apr gmt expires apr gmt references apr6 adobe com rbpc54d51 netcom com apr9 news columbia edu sender postnews cvbnetprime com organization computervision lines in article apr9 news columbia edu rdc8 cunixf cc columbia edu robert castro writes in article rbpc54d51 netcom com rbp netcom com bob pasker writes cjackson adobe com curtis jackson writes my solution is never to ride next to car the only thing between you and them is space keep as much as possible take this one step further never dilly dally in that rear of either side of cage when you pass make it as positive as possible and if you can pass fully at least make sure that if you attempt it you can make the driver aware of you by at least getting into his area of vision this also applies to merging into another lane after making pass do it as positively as possible and what try to do is look in the rear view and then over my shoulder and after ve done that accelerate into the lane so that you have speed cushion should you have missed seeing potential bdi that trying to do the same thing as you or worse ie he may have been behind you saw you made the pass successfully but you aren going fast enough to suite him so he tries to go around you on the right ride with four eyes rich rich bemben dod rbemben timewarp prime com triumph bonneville fear not the evil men do in the name of evil but heaven protect us from the evil men do in the name of good path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet europa eng gtefsd com gatech udel darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu linac att bu edu cvbnet timewarp rbemben from rbemben timewarp prime com rich bemben newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re april was re faq what is the dod message id cvbnetprime com date apr gmt expires apr gmt references viking ponderous cc iastate edu hpfcso fc hp com sender postnews cvbnetprime com organization computervision corp bedford ma lines in article hpfcso fc hp com jld hpfcso fc hp com jeff deeney writes in rec motorcycles viking iastate edu dan sorenson writes last year believe it was jeff deeney posted what ve since come to recognize as the ultimate april fools posting ever it wasn particularly nice of him as several people were quite fooled and very worried about him but can fault the effectiveness based on numerous inputs most of them unprintable deemed it time for kinder gentler april not that didn have something really sick and twisted ready to post perhaps next year personally think jeffy poo was still smarting more from the third degree burns he suffered after april st last year rather than the supposed burns that he suffered in the joke granted was one of those people that were taken in by it and was certainly concerned and then pissed at him for pulling such thing which made known to him but then again for an april fool joke would also go on record as saying that it was the best orchestrated one ve ever seen and it certainly sucked lot of people into believing it sick twisted who in this group could ever be accused of such thing tip my twisted lid to thee jeffy rich bemben dod rbemben timewarp prime com triumph bonneville fear not the evil men do in the name of evil but heaven protect us from the evil men do in the name of good path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel louie newsserver jvnc net darwin sura net uvaarpa gems vcu edu cabell vcu edu csc2imd newsgroups rec sport baseball subject the phillies deja vu message id apr14 cabell vcu edu from csc2imd cabell vcu edu ian derby date wed apr gmt expires mon may gmt organization virginia commonwealth university keywords phillies summary phillies lines after reading my local paper today found out that the phillies started the season at am not as old as but ve heard many talk about the serious choke job the phillies did that season they were ahead of the cardinals by games that season in mid august they managed to lose bunch from then on and the cardinals took the division games ahead and lost it hope this season is much different from maven mavenry altcit eskimo com norman hamer path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net wupost uunet news news world net connected com eskimo mavenry newsgroups rec motorcycles sender gateway mavenry altcit eskimo com subject observation re helmets message id mavenry altcit eskimo com altnet id date wed apr gmt lines grf dropped my shoei rf off the seat of my bike while trying to rock it onto it centerstand chipped the heck out of the paint on it so cheerfully spent on bottle of testor model paint and repainted the scratches and chips for minutes then while it was drying realized that was out of smokes and that my cage is not currently running so had to take my bike down to the store not wanting to mess up my paint job said well heck can just use my old helmet this is your standard el cheapie openface didn notice big difference when switched to the shoei but switching back was really bad doesn fit worth damn too wide in the sides too short front to back with faceplate it still bloody windy with the shoei normally ignore the face shield until get up to about ish with this one taxiing to the end of the driveway was too smegging much wind the question for the day is re passenger helmets if you don know for certain who gonna ride with you like say you meet them at church meeting yeah that the ticket what are some guidelines should just pick up another shoei in my size to have backup helmet xl or should maybe get an inexpensive one of smaller size to accomodate my likely passenger newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet orca pebbles bgardner from bgardner pebbles es com blaine gardner subject re ggrrrrrr cages double parking motorcycles pisses me off message id apr15 dsd es com sender usenet dsd es com nntp posting host organization evans sutherland computer corporation references qcdfainn22m senator bedfellow mit edu c5fbxm x2 myrddin imat com castle ed ac uk date thu apr gmt lines in article castle ed ac uk wbg festival ed ac uk geake writes the banana one isn imho ultra sticky labels printed with your favourite curse are good even our local hospitals use them instead of wheel clamps putting one about a5 size on each window of the cage so what your local hospital favorite curse blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd es com newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc sol ctr columbia edu news columbia edu cunixf cc columbia edu rdc8 from rdc8 cunixf cc columbia edu robert castro subject flashing anyone message id apr15 news columbia edu keywords flashing sender usenet news columbia edu the network news nntp posting host cunixf cc columbia edu organization columbia university date thu apr gmt lines hello all on my bike have hazard lights both front and back turn signals flash since live in nj and commute to nyc there are number of tolls one must pay on route just before arriving at toll booth switch the hazards on do thisto warn other motorists that will be taking longer than the seconds to make the transaction taking gloves off getting money out of coin changer pocket making transaction putting gloves back on takes little more time than the average cager takes to make the same transaction of paying the toll also notice that when do this cagers tend to get the message and usually go to another booth my question is this good bad thing to do any others tend to do the same just curious rob castro email rdc8 cunixf cc columbia edu live for today kz550ltd phone for today you live dod nyc new york new york usa rc tm newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet news encore com news jpolito from jpolito sysgem1 encore com jonathan polito subject re stolen aarghhhh organization encore computer corp date thu apr gmt message id jpolito apr15095753 sysgem1 encore com in reply to ericm microunity com message of thu apr gmt references apr14 ultb isc rit edu apr15 microunity com sender news encore com usenet readnews user id nntp posting host sysgem1 encore com lines in article apr15 microunity com ericm microunity com eric murray writes watch out often when some scumbag steals the cover that means that they were or are looking to steal the bike in my case had faded cover stolen off bmw r100rs that was stashed in an apartment carport and not visible from the street they evidently decided the beemer wasn worth stealing but did try the next night to steal honda hurricane parked in the next apartment building neighbor heard them wheeling it out and called the cops know this is just setting myself up but this is actually one of the things that is really good about bmw bikes from all accounts ve heard practically no one steals bmws probably it is similar for moto guzzis and other relative exotics since there isn large demand for parts and the bike would be much easier to track down it seems that the most stolen bikes are harleys and cc jap sport bikes jonathan polito internet jpolito encore com encore computer corp kildaire farm rd cary nc usa voice fax newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net wupost darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet uunet ca ohrd jlevine from jlevine rd hydro on ca jody levine subject re bikes with big dogs message id apr15 rd hydro on ca organization ontario hydro research division references apr14 cua edu apr14 galaxy gov bc ca date thu apr gmt lines in article apr14 galaxy gov bc ca bclarke galaxy gov bc ca writes in article apr14 cua edu wendel cua edu writes has anyone ever heard of rider giving big dog such as great dane ride on the back of his bike my dog would love it if could ever make it work post of the month actually ve seen riders carting around pet dog in sidecar great dane on the back though sounds bit hairy to me yeah sure that our lab would love ride he the type that sticks his head out car windows but didn think that he would enjoy being bungee corded to the gas tank and lbs or squirming beast is bit much for backpack ok who done it ve bike like jody levine dod kv got you can if you pf jody levine hydro on ca ride it toronto ontario canada newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net newsserver jvnc net newsserver technet sg ntuix ntuvax ntu ac sg ba7116326 from ba7116326 ntuvax ntu ac sg subject max handling request message id apr15 ntuvax ntu ac sg lines sender news ntuix ntu ac sg usenet news system nntp posting host v9001 ntu ac sg organization nanyang technological university singapore date thu apr gmt hello there ican anyone who has handson experience on riding the yamaha max pls kindly comment on its handling newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet orca pebbles bgardner from bgardner pebbles es com blaine gardner subject re motorcycle detailing tip message id apr15 dsd es com sender usenet dsd es com nntp posting host organization evans sutherland computer corporation references apr15 bnr ca date thu apr gmt lines in article apr15 bnr ca mbeaving bnr ca writes don you just hate when the speedo and tach on your bike start to cloud over from all that nasty sunshine the detailing tip of the week is to use rubbing compound moisten rag apply some rubbing compound and work into the translucent previously transparent material after few minutes of working on the plastic face the dial or plastic face will be clear once more will not work for glass couple of other tips make habit of parking the bike so that instruments are facing away from the sun meguiar mirror glaze plastic polish plastic cleaner cue canned product plug roise sumax seattleu edu linda roise writes ok for novice question is there anything that will clean face shield and also remove abrasions so that one can see through it better what you want are meguiar mirror glaze plastic polish and plastic cleaner they are very mild abrasives meant to remove scratches from plastic for fine scratches just use the polish for bigger ones start with the cleaner and finish with the polish the stuff is bucks per bottle at most auto or motorcycle parts stores don choke over the price too much since both bottles will probably last you years the stuff works great on plastic watch crystals and compact discs too blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd es com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu ux1 cso uiuc edu news cso uiuc edu uxa cso uiuc edu wcd82671 from wcd82671 uxa cso uiuc edu daniel warren newsgroups rec motorcycles subject hard copy hot pursuit summary shit keywords running from the police message id c5j34y t4 news cso uiuc edu date apr gmt article news c5j34y t4 sender usenet news cso uiuc edu net noise owner distribution rec motorcycles organization university of illinois at urbana lines yo did anybody see this run of hard copy guy on katana got pulled over by the police guess for speeding or something but just as the cop was about to step out of the car the dude punches it down an interstate in georgia ang then the cop gives chase now this was an interesting episode because it was all videotaped everything from the dramatic takeoff and mph chase to the sidestreet battle at about mph what happened at the end the guy who is being relentless chased down box the cage with the disco lights slows couple of times to taunt the cop after blowing few stop signs and making car jump to the side he goes up dead end street the kat although not the latest machine is still high performance machine and he slams on the brakes of couse we all know that cages especially the ones with the disco lights can stop as fast as our high performance machines so what happens the cage plows into the kat luckily for this dude he was wearing helmet and was not hurt but dude how crazy can you get yeah we ve all went out and played cat and mouse with our friends but with cop how crazy can you get it took just one look at zx who tried this crap to convince me not to try any shit like that although the dude collided with car head on at mph the kawasaki team colors still looked good just few scratches like no front end inch long engine and other minor scratches if you guys are out there please slow it down not being an advocate for the cages especially the ones that make that annoying ass noises but just think the next time you punched it whether you have an all mighty zx or can do it ninja just remember kid could step out at any time peace ride kinda safe warren have suzuki will travel wcd82671 uxa cso uiuc edu what the big deal about riding one of these only going annie robotech newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net newsserver jvnc net nj nec com syl behanna from behanna syl nj nec com chris behanna subject re wanted advice on cb900 custom purchase message id apr15 research nj nec com keywords cb900 purchase sender news research nj nec com organization nec systems laboratory inc references blue cis pitt edu apr14 acs ucalgary ca apr14 linus mitre org date thu apr gmt lines in article apr14 linus mitre org cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes in article apr14 acs ucalgary ca parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr writes my mechanic once commented that the dual range transmission was pure junk one mans opinion had friend in pittsburgh who had cb1000c with the dual range tranny on it he usually only used the economy range to get an overdrive sixth gear out of it he had miles on it when it was stolen it was recovered shortly after that repaired and for all know it still going strong the cb1000c was shaft driven overbore version of the cb900 and was made for exactly one year yep head and base gaskets are very expensive helluva bike data point chris behanna dod fxwg wide glide jubilee red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb360t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs name agree with any of this anyway was raised by pack of wild corn dogs newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net sol ctr columbia edu usenet ucs indiana edu nickel ucs indiana edu prange from prange nickel ucs indiana edu henry prange subject re tangentially re live free but quietly or die message id c5j5jj hpv usenet ucs indiana edu sender news usenet ucs indiana edu usenet news system nntp posting host nickel ucs indiana edu organization indiana university references hacgate scg hac com apr14 adobe com apr15 rd hydro on ca date thu apr gmt lines in article apr15 rd hydro on ca jlevine rd hydro on ca jody levine writes impertinent stuff deleted am showing my canadian university ness here of does anyone else know what talking about ve bike like jody levine dod kv got you can if you pf jody levine hydro on ca ride it toronto ontario canada there you go again you edu breath poser university ness indeed leave that stuff to us professionals henry prange biker professional edu breath physiology iu sch med blgtn dod bmwmoa gsi ride r100gs rx conv cage explorer cage the unifying trait of our species is the relentless pursuit of folly hypocrisy is the only national religion of this country newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet walter iscp bellcore com fist from fist iscp bellcore com richard pierson subject re boom hubcap attack message id apr15 walter bellcore com sender news walter bellcore com nntp posting host foxtrot iscp bellcore com organization bellcore references uupcb compdyn questor org speedy engr latech edu date thu apr gmt lines in article speedy engr latech edu speedy engr latech edu speedy mercer writes was attacked by rabid hubcap once was going to work on yamaha twin the vibrating tank when heard wierd noise off to my left caught glimpse of something silver headed for my left foot and jerked it up about nanosecond before my bike was hit hard in the left side when went to put my foot back on the peg found that it was not there pulled into the nearest parking lot and discovered that had been hit by wire wheel type hubcap from large cage this hubcap weighed about pounds the impact had bent the left peg flat against the frame and tweeked the shifter in the process had not heard the approaching cap feel certian that would be sans portion of my left foot anyone else had this sort of experience not with hub cap but one of those lumber yard delivery trucks made life interesting when he hit dip in the road and several sheets of sheetrock and dozen gallon cans of spackle came off at mph it got real interesting for about seconds or so had to use wood mallet to get all the dried spackle off me the helmet and the bike when got home thanks to the bob tail kenworth between me and the lumber truck had path to drive through he made with his tires and threw up the corresponding monsoon from those tires as he ran over what ever cans of spackle didn burst in impact car in front of me in the right lane hit her brakes did and nailed bridge abutment half way through the second the messiest time was in san diego in was on my way back to the apartment in ocean beach on my sportster and had just picked up shake burger fries from jack in the box and stuffed em in my foul weather jacket when the milk shake opened up on nimitz blvd at mph nothing like the smell of vanilla milk shake cooking on the engine as it runs down your groin and legs and people waiting in back of you to make the same left turn you are there are only two types of ships in the navy submarines and targets xs1100lh dod next raise richard pierson e06584 vnet internet fist iscp bellcore com uunet uunet bcr fist include std disclaimer my opinions are my own don shop in malls buy my jeans jackets and ammo in the same store path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu malgudi oar net news ysu edu yfn ysu edu ak296 from ak296 yfn ysu edu john daker newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re boom hubcap attack date apr gmt organization st elizabeth hospital youngstown oh lines message id qjtmo ll7 news ysu edu references speedy engr latech edu uupcb compdyn questor org reply to ak296 yfn ysu edu john daker nntp posting host yfn ysu edu in previous article speedy engr latech edu speedy mercer says was attacked by rabid hubcap once was going to work on yamaha twin the vibrating tank when heard wierd noise off to my left caught glimpse of something silver headed for my left foot and jerked it up about nanosecond before my bike was hit hard in the left side when went to put my foot back on the peg found that it was not there pulled into the nearest parking lot and discovered that had been hit by wire wheel type hubcap from large cage this hubcap weighed about pounds the impact had bent the left peg flat against the frame and tweeked the shifter in the process had not heard the approaching cap feel certian that would be sans portion of my left foot hmmmm wondered where that hubcap went dod darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them albert einstein the eternal champion path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu malgudi oar net news ysu edu yfn ysu edu ak296 from ak296 yfn ysu edu john daker newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re max handling request date apr gmt organization st elizabeth hospital youngstown oh lines message id qjtr9 llb news ysu edu references apr15 ntuvax ntu ac sg reply to ak296 yfn ysu edu john daker nntp posting host yfn ysu edu in previous article ba7116326 ntuvax ntu ac sg says hello there ican anyone who has handson experience on riding the yamaha max pls kindly comment on its handling you re kidding right this is flame bait in the extreme max handling har har har har dod darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them albert einstein the eternal champion newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc sol ctr columbia edu news columbia edu cunixf cc columbia edu rdc8 from rdc8 cunixf cc columbia edu robert castro subject contact person for boots message id apr15 news columbia edu keywords combat sender usenet news columbia edu the network news nntp posting host cunixf cc columbia edu reply to rdc8 cunixf cc columbia edu robert castro organization columbia university date thu apr gmt lines would anyone out there in dodland be able to help me out in giving me contact to purchase pair of military air borne combat boots in size these boots so have read here on rec moto are calf height boots that use only velcro for enclosure have phoned around and nobody seems to carry such an item admit have not gone into the deepest bowels of nyc yet for the search but have made some calls to several of the bigger army navy type stores with no luck anyone out there know of place that does carry such an item as well as does mail order any help would be appreciated rob castro email rdc8 cunixf cc columbia edu live for today kz550ltd phone for today you live dod nyc new york new york usa rc tm path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu malgudi oar net news ysu edu yfn ysu edu ak296 from ak296 yfn ysu edu john daker newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re hard copy hot pursuit date apr gmt organization st elizabeth hospital youngstown oh lines message id qju4n lub news ysu edu references c5j34y t4 news cso uiuc edu reply to ak296 yfn ysu edu john daker nntp posting host yfn ysu edu in previous article wcd82671 uxa cso uiuc edu daniel warren says yo did anybody see this run of hard copy no don watch that bu sh the kat although not the latest machine is still high performance machine and he slams on the brakes of couse we all know that cages especially the ones with the disco lights can stop as fast as our high performance machines so what happens the cage plows into the kat so does this mean the cop is at fault for rear ending the bike you know following too closely and reckless driving dod darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them albert einstein the eternal champion path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net wupost trinews sbc com calvin asper from asper calvin uucp alan asper newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re max handling request date apr gmt organization usr lib news organization lines message id qjv28 ehh sbctri sbc com references apr15 ntuvax ntu ac sg nntp posting host calvin sbc com in article apr15 ntuvax ntu ac sg ba7116326 ntuvax ntu ac sg writes hello there ican anyone who has handson experience on riding the yamaha max pls kindly comment on its handling ve ridden one twice it was designed to be monster in straight line which it is it has nothing on an fzr400 in the corners in fact it just didn handle that well at all in curves but hey that not what it was designed to do my two cents alan newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu utnut nott bnrgate bnr co uk bmdhh130 npet from npet bnr ca nick pettefar subject re rejetting carbs message id apr15 bnr ca sender news bnr ca news administrator nntp posting host bmdhh299 organization bnr europe ltd maidenhead uk newsreader tin version pl8 references apr15 tcsi com distribution na date thu apr gmt lines mark kromer on the thu apr gmt wibbled in an article rtaraz bigwpi ramin taraz wrote does the amount of exhaust allowed to leave the engine through the exhaust pipe make that much of difference the amount of air fuel mixture that cylender sucks in tries to suck in depends on the speed of the piston when it goes down and the pressure in the cylinder at the end of the exhaust stroke with poor exhaust system this pressure may be above atmospheric with pipe that scavenges well this may be substantially below atmospheric this effect will vary with rpm depending on the tune of the pipe some pipes combined with large valve overlap can actually reverse the intake flow and blow mixture out of the carb when outside the pipes effective rev range now my question is which one provides more resistence as far as the engine is conserned resistance that the exhaust provides or the resistance that results from the bike trying to push itself and the rider two completely different things the state of the pipe determines how much power the motor can make the load of the bike determines how much power the motor needs to make ark fzr400 pilot zx900 payload rd400 mechanic you re welcome well for one am so very glad that have fuel injection all those needles and orifices and venturi and pressures it worse than school human biology reproduction lessons sex always made me feel bit queasy nick the simple minded biker dod concise oxford tube rider lud nick pettefar contractor large currently incarcerated at bnr maidenhead the united kingdom npet bnr ca bmw k100rs kay pres pbwasoh uk bs newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net newsserver jvnc net nj nec com syl behanna from behanna syl nj nec com chris behanna subject re should liability insurance be required message id apr15 research nj nec com sender news research nj nec com organization nec systems laboratory inc references qf5g8 vtserf cc vt edu apr14 walter bellcore com tcora b329 gator pica army mil distribution usa date thu apr gmt lines in article tcora b329 gator pica army mil tcora pica army mil tom coradeschi writes in article apr14 walter bellcore com fist iscp bellcore com richard pierson wrote lets get this no fault stuff straight lived in nj when nf started my rates went up alot moved to pa and my rates went down alot the nf came to pa and it was different story if you are sitting in parking lot having lunch or whatever and someone wacks you guess whose insurance pays for it give up yours bzzzt if it is the other driver fault your insurance co pays you less deductible then recoups the total cost from the other guy gal company there fancy word for it which escapes me right now and pays you the deductible or you can go to the other guy gal company right off just takes longer to get your cash as opposed to state farm who cut me check today on the spot for the damage to my wife cage the word is subrogation seems to me if you re willing to wait for the money from scumbag insurance that you save having to pay the deductible however if scumbag insurance is scum insurance then you may have to pay the deductible to get your insurance co pack of rabid large fanged lawyers to recover the damages from scum insurance lawyers sad but true call it job security for lawyers later chris behanna dod fxwg wide glide jubilee red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb360t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs name agree with any of this anyway was raised by pack of wild corn dogs newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net agate boulder ucsu spot colorado edu coburnn from coburnn spot colorado edu nicholas coburn subject re bikes with big dogs message id apr15 ucsu colorado edu sender news ucsu colorado edu usenet news system nntp posting host spot colorado edu organization university of colorado boulder references apr14 cua edu date thu apr gmt lines in article apr14 cua edu wendel cua edu writes has anyone ever heard of rider giving big dog such as great dane ride on the back of his bike my dog would love it if could ever make it work thanks wendel cua edu on the back might be tricky but here in boulder there is guy that can always be seen with his golden retriever in the sidecar of course the dog is always wearing wwii style goggles no joke nick coburn dod ama cbr1000 cbr600 coburnn spot colorado edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet news claremont edu bridge2 able mkt com com txd from txd esd com com tom dietrich newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re ducati opinions wanted message id txd able mkt com com date apr gmt references ramarren kops apple com c5i2hm jwc srgenprp sr hp com sender news bridge2 nsd com com lines nntp posting host able mkt com com frankb sad hp com frank ball writes godfrey digiorgi ramarren apple com wrote the ducati model is essentially reduced displacement which means it weighs the same and is the same size as the with far less power it is produced specifically to meet vehicle tax restriction in certain markets which makes it commercially viable it not sold in the us where it is unneeded and unwanted as such it somewhat large and overweight for its motor it will still handle magnificently it just won be very fast there are very few other flaws to mention the limited steering lock is the annoyance noted by most testers and the mirrors aren perfect the ducati model is essentially reduced displacement which means it weighs the same and is the same size as the with far less nope it lbs lightrer than the power and less brakes single disk that is quite impressive with two fingers on the lever much to beth horror lifted the rear wheel about in fine randy mamola impression as such it somewhat large and overweight for its motor it will still handle magnificently it just won be very fast there are have feeling that it going to be fast enough that beth will give few liter bike riders fits in the future very few other flaws to mention the limited steering lock is the the steering locks are adjustable annoyance noted by most testers and the mirrors aren perfect beth sees fine out of them see of them filled with black leather concours sophisticated lady tom dietrich cc sportster ol sport for sale dod sr500 spike the garage rat ama queued for an m900 fssnoc two jousts and gather big fun kspt ma bell cool as rule but sometimes mail txd able mkt com com lewis disclaimer com takes no responsibility for opinions preceding this newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net agate linus linus mitre org mbunix mitre org cookson from cookson mbunix mitre org cookson subject dot tire date codes message id apr15 linus mitre org sender news linus mitre org news service nntp posting host mbunix mitre org organization the mitre corp bedford ma distribution usa date thu apr gmt lines just mailed this noticed in long cut in the tread of the rear tire on my vfr the cut is only about as deep as the tread block and looks like it only scratched the rubber at the base but the weird thing is it way over on the edge where haven scuffed the tire in yet my questions are how dangerous is this should replace the tire right away and if should since the cut is on the unscuffed portion and the tire only has about mi on it what do you think my chances of getting it replaced under warranty are to the nedod mailing list and jack tavares suggested check out how old the tire is as one tactic for getting it replaced does anyone have the file on how to read the date codes handy thanks dean dean cookson dcookson mitre org dod ama the mitre corp burlington rd bedford ma kotnml kotb the road is my shepherd and shall not stop vfr750f sam eliott road hogs mtv bianchi limited newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet utcsri newsflash concordia ca mizar cc umanitoba ca access usask ca kakwa ucs ualberta ca acs ucalgary ca parr from parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr subject re fat boy versus zx new math message id apr15 acs ucalgary ca date thu apr gmt references apr1 bnr ca c4v3s7 mcz ccu umanitoba ca pimfd cre agate berkeley edu nntp posting host acs3 acs ucalgary ca organization the university of calgary alberta lines in article pimfd cre agate berkeley edu robinson cogsci berkeley edu michael robinson writes in article c4v3s7 mcz ccu umanitoba ca klinger ccu umanitoba ca jorg klinger writes in apr1 bnr ca npet bnr ca nick pettefar writes manual velcro on the mar wibbled but is greater than or is greater than or no is the best of all no no no it should be obvious that is the best number by far last year was hot but with the improvements to this year there can be no question hell my dad used to have an old that would beat out today without breaking sweat well in the twisties anyway this year is just too cumbersome for practical use in anything other than repeating decimals remember the good old days when hexadecimals and even binaries were still legal sure they smoked little blue stuff out the pipes but had hex that could slaughter any decimal on the road sigh such nostalgia regards charles dod0 rz350 within the span of the last few weeks have heard elements of separate threads which in that they have been conjoined in time struck together to form new chord within my hollow and echoing gourd unknown net person newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet utcsri newsflash concordia ca mizar cc umanitoba ca access usask ca kakwa ucs ualberta ca acs ucalgary ca parr from parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr subject re drinking and riding message id apr15 acs ucalgary ca date thu apr gmt references c4wkbp b9w eskimo com nntp posting host acs3 acs ucalgary ca organization the university of calgary alberta lines in article c4wkbp b9w eskimo com maven eskimo com norman hamer writes what is general rule of thumb for sobriety and cycling couple hours after you feel sober what or should just work with if drink tonight don ride until tomorrow interesting discussion limit myself to one standard serving of alcohol if going to ride and mostly unless the alcohol is something special fine ale good wine or someone else vsop usually just don drink any but then alcohol just isn really important to me mainly for financial reasons at least one of the magazines claims to follow the aviation guideline of no alcohol whatsoever within hrs of riding company bike don remember which mag though it was few years ago regards charles hicc dod rz350 within the span of the last few weeks have heard elements of separate threads which in that they have been conjoined in time struck together to form new chord within my hollow and echoing gourd unknown net person newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet pipex bnr co uk bmdhh130 npet from npet bnr ca nick pettefar subject re for johs dhhalden no last message id apr15 bnr ca sender news bnr ca news administrator nntp posting host bmdhh299 organization bnr europe ltd maidenhead uk newsreader tin version pl8 references gate c27u2b1w165w ryang1 pgh pa us date thu apr gmt lines un021432 wvnvms wvnet edu writes ducati3 uue quuncd ver by theodore kaldis begin cut here cut here part mg nh c1m av4 nyr7 x12 afkin0 apyt li2t this gif was great have it as the backdrop on my apollo thingy and many people stop by and admire it of course tell them that did it myself it far too much trouble to contact archive sites to get stuff like this so if anybody else has any good gifs please please don hesitate to post them is the bra thing still going nick the idiot biker dod concise oxford no bras lud nick pettefar contractor large currently incarcerated at bnr maidenhead the united kingdom npet bnr ca bmw k100rs kay pres pbwasoh uk bs newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet pipex bnr co uk bmdhh130 npet from npet bnr ca nick pettefar subject re camping question message id apr15 bnr ca sender news bnr ca news administrator nntp posting host bmdhh299 organization bnr europe ltd maidenhead uk newsreader tin version pl8 references netnews upenn edu date thu apr gmt lines sanjay sinha on the apr gmt wibbled thanks to everyone who posted in my previous quest for camping info another question well not strictly stuff am looking for thermos flask to keep coffee hot mean real hot of course it must be the unbreakable type so far what ever metal type have wasted money on has not matched the vacuum glass type any info appreciated sanjay back in my youth ahem the wiffy and moi purchased gadget which heated up water from source it was for car use but we thought we try it on my rd350b it worked ok apart from one slight problem we had to keep the revs above any lower and the motor would die from lack of electron movement it made for interesting cups of coffee anyhow we would plot routes that contained straights of over three miles so that we had sufficient time to get the water to boiling point this is sometimes difficult in england good luck on your quest nick the biker dod concise oxford lud nick pettefar contractor large currently incarcerated at bnr maidenhead the united kingdom npet bnr ca bmw k100rs kay pres pbwasoh uk bs newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet pipex uknet warwick qmw dcs davide from davide dcs qmw ac uk dave edmondson subject re why are there no turbocharged motorbikes in north america message id c5j9n2 hy0 dcs qmw ac uk sender usenet dcs qmw ac uk usenet news system organization computer science dept qmw university of london newsreader tin version pl8 references beacham bud ub ub com date thu apr gmt lines in article apr93 skyfox howp skyfox writes just got to thinking why don manufacturers still make bikes with turbos etc because they add lot of expense and complexity and make for less reliable and less controllable bike as an extreme example the cx500 turbo cost as much as mike hailwood replica ducati david edmondson davide dcs qmw ac uk queen mary westfield college dod guzzi le mans this means the end of the horse drawn zeppelin path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net europa eng gtefsd com emory gnome from gnome pd org mike mitten newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re what is it with cats and dogs date apr gmt organization the laughing gnome software farm atlanta ga usa lines message id qk3mqinn72e emory mathcs emory edu references apr14 cbnewsj cb att com nntp posting host noel pd org newsreader tin version pl6 james bessette jimbes cbnewsj cb att com wrote in article hplsla hp com kens hplsla hp com ken snyder writes ps also heard from dog breeder that the chains of bicycles and motorcycles produced high frequency squeaks that dogs loved to chase ask the breeder why they also chase bmws also cam chain mike mike mitten gnome pd org emory pd org gnome ama dod irony is the spice of life bianchi backstreet suzuki gs850gl the revolution will not be televised newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net wupost csus edu netcom com netcomsv butch lmsc5 is lmsc lockheed com l629159 from l629159 lmsc5 is lmsc lockheed com subject re boom hubcap attack message id l629159 lmsc5 is lmsc lockheed com sender news butch lmsc lockheed com organization lockheed missiles space company inc date thu apr pdt lines from speedy engr latech edu speedy mercer was attacked by rabid hubcap once was going to work on yamaha twin the vibrating tank when heard wierd noise off to my left caught glimpse of something silver headed for my left foot and jerked it up about nanosecond before my bike was hit hard in the left rest deleted anyone else had this sort of experience dod technician dr speed not student stolen taglines god is real unless declared integer came saw deleted all your files black holes are where god is dividing by zero the world will end in minutes please log out earth is full please delete anyone you can actually hubcap attacks are fairly common most cagers being too incompetant to reinstall them properly after changing tires or to check them after collisions luckily few are as heavy as the one that got you al moore dod don forget the immortal swap file read error you lose your mind newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet pipex uknet warwick qmw dcs davide from davide dcs qmw ac uk dave edmondson subject re gpz900 runs like bitch message id c5jb3o iop dcs qmw ac uk sender usenet dcs qmw ac uk usenet news system organization computer science dept qmw university of london newsreader tin version pl8 references q7kq1innjl9 griffin orpington sgp slb com date thu apr gmt lines tried mailing you but your domain seems not to exist can even get sinet slb com to admit to knowing about geco anyway here we go in article q7kq1innjl9 griffin orpington sgp slb com you wrote subject gpz900 runs like bitch anyone have cure for sub zero running probs on gpz anything below revs and the bike wants to cut out all the time the recommended cure in the bike mags seems to be to switch off the engine for minute to thaw the ice but this is obviously not mutch of cure mine has had the kawasaki heated carb mod but the problem persists ve covered the rad which makes the bike run warmer and moves the problem down the temp scale degree or two has anyone tried dynojet kit on the or getting desperate different carbs or the fuel injection off the gpz have you talked to kawasaki maybe they did another version of the upgrade kit got to be worth phone call did you do the carb mod or did you buy it secondhand from someone who said that it had been done is that orpington in kent if so have you heard of the ogri mailing list which run its an email list for bikers in the uk and interested parties available live or as daily digest let me know if you want to subscribe good luck dave david edmondson davide dcs qmw ac uk queen mary westfield college dod guzzi le mans this means the end of the horse drawn zeppelin path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu lynx unm edu hydra unm edu keith from keith hydra unm edu newsgroups rec motorcycles subject where can afford goldwing mirror date apr gmt organization university of new mexico albuquerque lines distribution usa message id qk3s5innq7h lynx unm edu references apr14 walter bellcore com tcora b329 gator pica army mil apr15 research nj nec com nntp posting host hydra unm edu searched without luck for faq here need left aspencade mirror and honda wants for it now if this were another piece of chrome to replace the black plastic that wings come so liberally supplied with might be able to see that silly price but mirror is piece of safety equipment the fact that honda clearly places concern for their profits ahead of concern for my safety is enough to convince me that this my third wing will likely be my last in the mean time anyboby have non ripoff source for mirror keith smith keith hydra unm edu newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net bogus sura net udel wupost usc news service uci edu ttinews harley paulb from paulb harley tti com paul blumstein subject latest socal rides message id apr15 ttinews tti com sender usenet ttinews tti com usenet admin nntp posting host harley tti com organization black belt motorcyclists association distribution ca date thu apr gmt lines southern california ridelist please send me any updates to this ride list remember only street rides that are open to all bikers are posted please inc phone for further info also send me your mail address if you want mailed copies of this list suggest calling first to make sure that info is current if you find out further info please let me know strive for accuracy but cannot be responsible for errors mail address paulb harley tti com coffee donuts mx live music food drinks available changes since last posting address at end of posting apr th annual laughlin nv river run rides to the run from points all over socal concerts poker runs parties etc etc this is sponsored by the southern calif harley dealer assoc but all bikes are welcome reservations are only at any socal harley dealer river run hr hotline discount room reservations or concert tix tues sat noon apr nd annual racing memorabilia show sale art prints photos lithos models books apr scma route tour apr scma trac gypsy tour in santa monica john lane apr tax time run for the money abate pins prizes games raffles free if you join in twin city brea canyon rd walnut manny apr rd annual gwta loma linda children hospital benefit run free start hot dogs etc finish in skip fordyce motors indiana ave riverside apr mma state overnighter frazier park or apr nd yuma prison run mailin gate camping or apr paso robles clean sober run paso robles fairgrounds apr shamrock rd annual scenic byways tour starts routes in simi valley honda ave or cycles parts baseline san bernadino picnic bbq lake hughes apr mra chap poker run american legion south st peris steve hill may ama grand nat dirt track series race pomona fairplex or may kpfk fm centerstand radio show and the car show will broadcast live from autobooks etc magnolia av burbank carshow starts noonb centerstand pm may abate poker run east end of bucklin park imperial valley in includes food entertainment barbara may pmc th annual greenhorn tour or may song dog ranch spring rally overnight camping at this famousmotorcycle campground mx all you can eat or drink bbq dinner sunday bkfst person reserve by april song dog ranch rt new cuyama of ojai keep trying this number may bsa owner club spring ride castaic landing may album release celebration helmet laws suck by billy gordon the blue rockers la vida hot springs to to lambert east miles on left special guests mx raffle may st annual spring round up rodeo abate many bike games pins raffle in starts games noon ea couple free if you join robbies restaurant hwy btwn perris lake elsinore george or susan allen or melanie may mc swap meet orange county fairgnds costa mesa may la cnty mc swap meet may christian assn socal rally first assembly of god church nisqually rd victorville bob quintard may mother with the most may th annual mc awareness day abate american legion hall gardena bl crnr normandie gardena mx vendors raffles games etc free pin doc or carol or dieter may blue knights th annual benefit ride starts cycle parts west san diego harold crosby may run for the wall la to dc lv or from ta truck stop where i10 i15 meet in ontario camping motels available at each night stop rides ends up at the vietnam veterans memorial wall in washington dc bikes are expected to meet there call rod coffey alt info send to john anderson deer creek way paso robles ca or call him may long beach mc parts exchange lb veterans memorial stadium may us mc jamboree tulare cnty fairgnds tulare ride in mc show benefit poker run sun mx raffles games starts noon on friday under free for under may blazing saddles tour scma may ariel owners club annual event greenfield ave la chuck walton jun fun in the sun ride mma bakersfield jun class act tour jun silver eagles run palomar san diego jun ventura swap show by the shop ventura fairgnds jun rd annual summer solstice poker run pig feed abate ea couple free if you join pig roast games raffles mx swimming pins in swallows inn i5 ortega hwy san juan capistrano earl rick jun mma bike fest mariposa fairgrounds hwy to hwy go miles mx camping available trade show f7d games advance gate info tix jun hope house benefit run scma jul bike show accessories unltd jul abate christmas in july jul beach ride to benefit the exceptional children foundation jul abate old timers poker run jul th annual unicoastal ride and joust starts all over the west coast and goes to pine glen campground near mammoth lakes for or day weekend of fun with the usenet personalities your fond of flaming to get on the mail list contact joust request harley tti com jul iron horse poker run jul nd annual national ride to work day jul quaff mt palomar th annual overnighter la jolla campgrounds jul th annual summer food run abate jul mc swap meet orange county fairgnds costa mesa aug accessories unltd ride aug hot august nights poker run aug tour scma area aug song dog ranch summer rally overnight camping at this famous motorcycle campground classical mx all you can eat or drink bbq dinner sunday bkfst person reserve by aug song dog ranch rt new cuyama of ojai keep trying this number aug vets benefit run trac aug mma chicken roast camarillo park sep th annual flags classic juarez mexico to southern alberta canada person received by frank weed or try sep abate golden state rendezvous fri noon mon mid state fairgrounds paso robles sep iron horse rocket run sep black gold poker run taft mc sep redwood run sep bonanza tour shamrocks oct mc swap meet orange county fairgnds costa mesa oct song dog ranch fall rally overnight camping at this famous motorcycle campground mx all you can eat or drink bbq dinner sunday bkfst person reserve by oct song dog ranch rt new cuyama of ojai keep trying this number oct scma grand tour oct easyriders motorcycle rodeo antelope valley fairgrounds hwy to ave exit right lancaster oct nd annual griffith park sidecar rally mineral springs area of the park doug bingham oct mra chap ride nov love ride to benefit the muscular dystrophy assoc sponsored by glendale san fernando rd glendale nov toy key run scma area nov mc awareness day abate nov accessories unlimited posse ride dec mc swap meet orange county fairgnds costa mesa dec hathaway children center toy run ongoing events notices hd swap meet show santa fe springs drive in alondra blvd rd thurs ea mo fee note that in april it was moved to free seminars every saturday luftmeister inc long beach tune in centerstand radio program for motorcyclists every saturday from pm on kpfk fm parents out partners mc club meets nd sat at cocos brea rd colina road in diamondbar new mc club for women only is forming diamonds and pearls marc motorcycling amateur radio club meets nd sat denny th st santa ana net weds on info ray or bonnie addresses follows camp from or fwy go north on azusa ave hwy to east fork rd go miles east to camp hint look for bridge accessories unlimited lyons ave at i5 newhall cycle parts west beach blvd westminister newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net agate dog ee lbl gov network ucsd edu pacbell com pb2esac prahren from prahren pb2esac uucp peter ahrens subject bmwmoa controversy message id apr15 pb2esac uucp summary request for brief overview keywords bmwmoa board history of contretemps organization pacific bell esac oakland ca references rider uucp distribution usa date thu apr gmt lines in article rider uucp joe rider cactus org writes vech ra msstate edu craig vechorik writes good ol boys that have been there too long while agree with you that the current board is garbage voting you in would simply be trading one form of trash for another do the opponents of your selections get equal time yo joe why don you post what you really think if there are any rational bmwmoa folks left out there may the rest of us please have brief summary of the current state of affairs in your esteemed organization together with an historical outline of how you got to the above contretemps points will be deducted for shouting or bulging veins in the temple area pete ahrens newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net bogus sura net darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet pipex bnr co uk bnrgate bcars6a8 keithh from keithh bnr ca keith hanlan subject re ggrrrrrr cages double parking motorcycles pisses me off message id apr15 bcars6a8 bnr ca sender usenet bcars6a8 bnr ca use net nntp posting host bcarh10f organization bell northern research ltd ottawa references c5fbxm x2 myrddin imat com castle ed ac uk lsp0mginnud cash cs utexas edu date thu apr gmt lines in article lsp0mginnud cash cs utexas edu mcguire cs utexas edu tommy marcus mcguire writes however this has nothing to do with motorcycling unless you consider the vw bike however this has nothing to do with motorcycling unless you consider the amazona bike keith hanlan keithh bnr ca bell northern research ottawa canada newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet pipex bnr co uk bmdhh130 npet from npet bnr ca nick pettefar subject re bmw battery message id apr15 bnr ca sender news bnr ca news administrator nntp posting host bmdhh299 organization bnr europe ltd maidenhead uk newsreader tin version pl8 references apr14 bcars6a8 bnr ca date thu apr gmt lines keith hanlan on the wed apr gmt wibbled in article apr14 ra msstate edu vech ra msstate edu craig vechorik writes if remember correctly the reason that bmw come with those expensive and relatively worthless short lived varda batteries is cause bmw owns controling interest in that battery manufacturer what wrong with the bmw battery ve never had problems and know numerous people that are still using the original battery in there year old beemers kay my k100rs still has her original battery in she ok nick the sufficiently well charged biker dod concise oxford lud nick pettefar contractor large currently incarcerated at bnr maidenhead the united kingdom npet bnr ca bmw k100rs kay pres pbwasoh uk bs path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net bogus sura net darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet news tek com tekig7 tekig6 jearls from jearls tekig6 pen tek com jeffrey david earls newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re why are there no turbocharged motorbikes in north america message id tekig7 pen tek com date apr gmt references beacham bud ub ub com c5j9n2 hy0 dcs qmw ac uk sender news tekig7 pen tek com organization tektronix inc beaverton or lines in article c5j9n2 hy0 dcs qmw ac uk davide dcs qmw ac uk dave edmondson writes as an extreme example the cx500 turbo cost as much as mike hailwood replica ducati so if can scrounge up good looking cx500 turbo will someone trade me an mhr duc for it jeff earls jearls tekig6 pen tek com dod kottg kotspt wmtc ama fj1200 millennium falcon squid factor klr650 thumpy hit the button chewie han solo there ain nothin like mph sweeper in the idaho rockies me path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net wupost uunet news tek com tekgen interceptor davet from davet interceptor cds tek com dave tharp cds newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re uh der whassa deltabox message id tekgen bv tek com date apr gmt references unisql uucp sender news tekgen bv tek com organization tektronix colorado data systems englewood co lines in article unisql uucp ray unisql uucp ray shea writes can someone tell me what deltabox frame is and what relation that has if any to the frame on my hawk gt that way next time some guy comes up to me in some parking lot and sez hey dude nice bike is that deltabox frame on there can say something besides duh er huh deltabox tm is registered trademark of yamaha used to describe their aluminum perimeter frame design used on the fzr400 and fzr1000 in cross section it has five sided appearance so it probably really should be called pentabox dave tharp dod you can wear out davet interceptor cds tek com mra an indian scout k75s indian chief ahrma or its brother the chief r90s tr ama they re built like rocks r50 velorex nsu max to take the knocks bmw r12 compulsive it the harleys that my employer has no idea joiner give you grief newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech udel news intercon com psinntp dg rtp webo dagny lyford from lyford dagny webo dg com lyford beverage subject re notes on jays vs indians series message id apr15 webo dg com sender lyford dagny lyford beverage date thu apr gmt distribution na references c5ep70 irh andy bgsu edu c5fmxd pm cs dal ca rudyc5fr3q cl netcom com apr13 cs cornell edu organization data general corporation research triangle park nc lines in article apr13 cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes in article rudyc5fr3q cl netcom com rudy netcom com rudy wade writes in article c5fmxd pm cs dal ca niguma ug cs dal ca gord niguma writes reference to history because he certainly didn have the best season for second basemen in history he probably didn even have as good season as alomar last year what do you have some measure like popularity in toronto doesn count that you are basing this statement on uh yes baerga has lot of flash but alomar was the better hitter last year batters ba slg obp ab tb hr rbi bb so sb cs baerga alomar this is fascinating you say that alomar was the better hitter last year and immediately follow that up with numbers showing that baerga had better year the only category that see which shows an advantage for alomar is obp path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet meaddata brian from brian meaddata com brian curran newsgroups rec sport baseball subject tiger stadium gif date apr gmt organization mead data central dayton oh lines distribution world message id qjqda meaddata meaddata com nntp posting host taurus meaddata com does anybody have gif of the tiger stadium seating chart thanks brian curran mead data central brian meaddata com didn think should ve been asked to catch when the temperature was below my age carlton fisk chicago white sox catcher on playing during degree april ball game newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net sol ctr columbia edu mizzou1 missouri edu c558172 from c558172 mizzou1 missouri edu subject re the phillies deja vu message id bb181d5 c558172 mizzou1 missouri edu sender nobody ctr columbia edu organization university of missouri references apr14 cabell vcu edu date thu apr gmt posted from mizzou1 missouri edu nntp posting host sol ctr columbia edu lines in article apr14 cabell vcu edu csc2imd cabell vcu edu ian derby writes after reading my local paper today found out that the phillies started the season at am not as old as but ve heard many talk about the serious choke job the phillies did that season they were ahead of the cardinals by games that season in mid august they managed to lose bunch from then on and the cardinals took the division games ahead and lost it hope this season is much different don shannon cardinals fan kohl newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net wupost uunet destroyer news iastate edu dunix drake edu acad drake edu sbp002 from sbp002 acad drake edu subject re braves pitching updatedir message id apr15 acad drake edu lines sender news dunix drake edu usenet news system nntp posting host acad drake edu organization drake university des moines iowa usa references apr14 adobe com apr14 pts mot com date thu apr gmt in article apr14 pts mot com ep502dn pts mot com dave naehring x2079 p7630 writes in article adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes every single piece of evidence we can find points to major league baseball being offense defense run scored is just as important as run prevented this certainly passes the common sense test for me but is there any statistical evidence to say what percent of defense is pitching and what percent is fielding really like to know btw sherri thanks for the da data find it fascinating of course run scored is just as important as run prevented just as penny saved is penny earned enough with the cliches my point is that if the braves starters are able to live up to their potential they won need much offensive support realize this is big if this staff leaves the bosox in the dust there is no legitimate comparison two cy young winners and three other pitchers that most any team in the league would kill to have as their first or second starter it seems to me that when quality pitchers take the mound the other teams score less runs the team that scores the most runs wins this puts the team with the better pitching at the advantage providing they can stop the opposing team from scoring runs low scoring game would clearly benefit the braves they should have many low scoring games due to their excellent pitching and below average hitting on the flip side if you had starting lineup of great offensive players would be arguing that this team would not need great pitchers they would have an advantage because they could simply outscore their opponent the name of the games is to win even ray knight knows that you do this by putting more runs up on the scoreboard all trying to say is that if you assemble the quality pitchers like the braves have the offense doesn need to be as strong sam dave sherri nichols snichols adobe com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net wupost gumby yale not for mail from shapiro david yale edu david shapiro newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re tigers date apr organization what me organized lines distribution na message id qjrsninni2i minerva cis yale edu references rk0vsanu miamiu bitnet nntp posting host minerva cis yale edu in reply to ryan kearns message of wed apr edt woof woof david shapiro people can call it monkey but felt like shapiro david yale edu had piano on my back all winter long shapiro minerva cis yale edu the piano is off my back maybe trombone will be next stan belinda newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc sdd hp com col hp com news dtc hp com hpscit sc hp com cupnews0 cup hp com news1 boi hp com rdetweil from rdetweil boi hp com richard detweiler subject cards mailing list sender news boi hp com news server project message id c5j4me bkm boi hp com date thu apr gmt distribution usa organization hewlett packard lines count me interested in cardinal mailing list if anyone finds one or starts one please let me know thanks dick detweiler rdetweil hpdmd48 boi hp com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu uunet ogicse henson news washington edu usenet coe montana edu msu oscs montana edu alird from alird msu oscs montana edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re cubs expos roster questions message id b0f0 c5de05a0 msu oscs montana edu date apr gmt article msu b0f0 c5de05a0 references apr15 vmsb is csupomona edu sender usenet coe montana edu usenet news system reply to alird msu oscs montana edu organization montana state university lines in article apr15 vmsb is csupomona edu cvadrnlh vmsb is csupomona edu writes today cubs activated mike harkey from dl whom did they move to make room for harkey also are delino deshields john wetteland of the expos on the dl thanks for anyone who can give me more info ken cal poly pomona wetteland is on the dl effective march or something like that rick path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech pitt edu dsinc ub galileo cc rochester edu troi cc rochester edu kahn from kahn troi cc rochester edu james kahn newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re tigers message id apr15 galileo cc rochester edu date apr gmt sender news galileo cc rochester edu organization university of rochester rochester ny lines nntp posting host troi cc rochester edu in article apr14 sbcs sunysb edu wynblatt sbgrad5 cs sunysb edu michael wynblatt writes weird thing leading going into the top of the ninth sparky used his ace closer henneman the tigers have relievers and at least were rested available does sparky trust them that little think he just wanted to get henneman some work because the tigers had days off both the day before and the day after jim path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net wupost uwm edu msuinfo netnews upenn edu netnews cc lehigh edu ns1 cc lehigh edu gaf5 from gaf5 ns1 cc lehigh edu gail fullman newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re phillies sign mark davis message id apr15 ns1 cc lehigh edu date apr gmt organization lehigh university lines does that mean they have to pay his salary didn they wait for him to clear waivers if not why not davis will be paid by three clubs this year think the phils are responsbible for about or so they didn wait for him to clear waivers as three other clubs were also very interested in him gamble yes oh it will as royals fan am skeptical they say he pitched well in winter ball he also pitched well at omaha while with kc he just didn pitch well or even acceptably when in the majors don have his atlanta stats but he must not have impressed them very much either what about the year when he got saves in san diego did he pitch well then ok know he was awful the next year when he went to kc but still won the cy young too for that year path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net agate msuinfo netnews upenn edu netnews cc lehigh edu ns1 cc lehigh edu gaf5 from gaf5 ns1 cc lehigh edu gail fullman newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re florida sucks message id apr15 ns1 cc lehigh edu date apr gmt organization lehigh university lines in article apr13 cabell vcu edu csc2imd cabell vcu edu ian derby writes this talk about the phillies winning the nl east is scary very scary don get me wrong im phillies fan but as late as last year they looked helpless the funny thing was they did have lot of injuries in spring training that basically killed their chances of course don forget the dykstra wrist injury in the first or second game first game first at bat newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech holos0 lbr from lbr holos0 uucp len reed subject re players rushed to majors message id apr15 holos0 uucp organization holos software inc references apr pilot njin net c54i09 k7v undergrad math uwaterloo ca c5hq3o g4p tss com date thu apr gmt lines in article c5hq3o g4p tss com hanson tss com hanson loo writes didn bob horner go straight from arizona state univ to the atlanta braves remember he had one great month hitting dingers and then the next heard he was in japan month well he did have short career compared to what one might have expected for such highly touted prospect due to being injury prone overweight and having no work ethic but he certainly did not suffer from being rushed to the bigs len reed holos software inc voice ext domain lbr holos atl ga usa uucp lbr holos0 uucp xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec sport baseball fantasy rec sport baseball newsgroups rec sport baseball fantasy rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov jato csi usenet from cub csi jpl nasa gov ray miller subject sid fernandez message id apr15 csi jpl nasa gov sender usenet csi jpl nasa gov network noise transfer service nntp posting host chopin organization jet propulsion laboratory distribution usa date thu apr gmt lines read this morning that sid fernandez left last nights game with stiffness in his shoulder does anyone have any information as to the extent of the injury if indeed there is one or weather the cold air in colorado just got his joints little stiff thanks for the help ray miller disclaimer cub chopin jpl nasa gov all opinions are strictly my own once spent year in philadelphia think it was on sunday wcfields path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester rutgers ucla cs ucivax news service uci edu cerritos edu arizona edu arizona noao ncar mimbres cs unm edu constellation convex convex egsner ernest m2 dseg ti com tilde csc ti com mksol kerr dseg ti com kkerr mkcase1 dseg ti com from kkerr mkcase1 dseg ti com mk kevin kerr newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re yankkes game closer message id kkerr mkcase1 dseg ti com mk date apr gmt references axe acadiau ca apr6 freenet carleton ca sender usenet mksol dseg ti com usenet news organization engineering automation lines nntp posting host kerr dseg ti com in article apr6 freenet carleton ca aa649 freenet carleton ca ralph timmerman writes from aa649 freenet carleton ca ralph timmerman subject re yankkes game closer date tue apr gmt in previous article axe acadiau ca jason walter works says the yankees are now one game closer to the east pennant they clobbered cleveland on fine pitching performance by key and two homeruns by tartabull first baseball to go out this season and three run homer by nokes for all of you who didn pick boggs in your pools tough break he had couple hits and drove in couple runs with many more to follow the yanks beat an up and coming team of youngsters in the indians the yankees only need to win more games to get the division go yanks mattingly for glove and mvp and abbot for cy young jason does that mean we have to read this drivel another times this season please spare us and check you facts before you post ralph timmerman there is no life after baseball aa649 freenet carleton ca no one says you have to read any of it ralph go play in traffic or take nap they work for me kevin kerr kkerr mkcase1 dseg ti com president north texas programmers users group bbs go yankees go dolphins strolling through cyberspace sniffing the electric wind path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net news feed peachnet edu gatech news byu edu yvax byu edu byuvm issbtl newsgroups rec sport baseball subject let it be known message id issbtl byuvm bitnet from issbtl byuvm bitnet date wednesday apr mdt organization brigham young university lines would like to make everyone aware that in winning the nl west the atlanta braves did not lead wire to wire through games of the houston astros are percentage points ahead of the unbeatable braves go astros byron lee native texan stuck in utah path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net agate jtchern from jtchern ocf berkeley edu joseph hernandez newsgroups rec sport baseball subject mlb standings and scores for thu apr th date apr gmt organization jtc enterprises sports division major league baseball dept lines distribution world message id qjv0i agate berkeley edu nntp posting host monsoon berkeley edu mlb standings and scores for thursday april th including yesterday games national west won lost pct gb last streak home road houston astros won atlanta braves lost san francisco giants lost los angeles dodgers lost colorado rockies lost san diego padres lost cincinnati reds lost national east philadelphia phillies won pittsburgh pirates won st louis cardinals won new york mets won chicago cubs won montreal expos lost florida marlins won american west won lost pct gb last streak home road texas rangers lost california angels won oakland athletics lost seattle mariners won chicago white sox won minnesota twins lost kansas city royals lost american east boston red sox won new york yankees won toronto blue jays lost detroit tigers won cleveland indians lost milwaukee brewers lost baltimore orioles won yesterday scores idle teams listed in alphabetical order national league american league houston baltimore montreal texas pittsburgh seattle san diego toronto chicago cleveland atlanta boston cincinnati california philadelphia milwaukee new york kansas city colorado new york florida minnesota ppd san francisco chicago rain st louis detroit idle los angeles oakland idle joseph hernandez rams lakers jtchern ocf berkeley edu kings dodgers raiders jtcent soda berkeley edu angels clippers path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net spool mu edu news nd edu irishvma rvesterm organization university of notre dame office of univ computing date wed apr est from rvesterm vma cc nd edu message id rvesterm vma cc nd edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re boog powell was re camden yards references uupcb wb3ffv ampr org apr13 alchemy chem utoronto ca lines in article apr13 alchemy chem utoronto ca mark says was he better than balboni this borders on blasphemy bob vesterman path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net spool mu edu news nd edu irishvma rvesterm organization university of notre dame office of univ computing date wed apr est from rvesterm vma cc nd edu message id rvesterm vma cc nd edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re nl vs al references apr12 news yale edu rvesterm vma cc nd edu apr13 news yale edu lines in article apr13 news yale edu sean garrison says in article rvesterm vma cc nd edu rvesterm vma cc nd edu wrote pitchers who are doing well are more likely to be taken out of the game in the nl than they are in the al so it seems to me that the al not the nl promotes pitchers duels bob vesterman on what basis do you make this statement sean are you serious pitchers are pinch hit for in the nl they are not in the nl if pitcher is cranking in the al he will stay in the game if he is cranking in the nl he may not especially if it pitchers duel and his team needs an extra run bob vesterman path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net spool mu edu news nd edu irishvma rvesterm organization university of notre dame office of univ computing date wed apr est from rvesterm vma cc nd edu message id rvesterm vma cc nd edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re ugliest swing references dosgate apr12 ptdcs2 intel com oasys dt navy mil lines in article oasys dt navy mil kiviat oasys dt navy mil brian kiviat says what think is hotdogish about his ab is the way he leans out over the plate to watch outside pitches etc this not done to get better look at the pitch but to make it seem this ball is so far out need to lean just to get near it so you better call it ball this is my unbiased opinion of what see your mileage will vary rickey is agreat player to watch if you forget who he is at the time lot of batters lean in when pitches come rickey crouch tends to exaggerate that think great player to watch if you forget who he is unbiased hmmm bob vesterman newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu gatech purdue mentor cc purdue edu mace cc purdue edu poutsmaj from poutsmaj mace cc purdue edu unknown subject re aguilera causes cardiac arrest message id c5j68f fc mentor cc purdue edu sender news mentor cc purdue edu usenet news organization purdue university references apr13 sctc com apr14 bmw mayo edu qi97dinnemh phakt usc edu date thu apr gmt lines in article qi97dinnemh phakt usc edu wagner phakt usc edu loren wagner writes in article apr14 bmw mayo edu bergerson mayo edu writes maybe you would rather have ron davis back the truly amazing thing was how many years this bum was the closer for the twins you have thought they could find somebody better don daybell wagner usc edu going into the ninth with run lead runs score runners on first and second rd throws there drive waaaaaayyyyyyy back puckett to the wall leaps he caught the ball what catch by kirby twins win and rd gets the save his line ip walks hits and one robbed home run paul path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net agate garnet berkeley edu srubio from srubio garnet berkeley edu steven rubio newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re kevin rogers date apr gmt organization university of california berkeley lines sender steven rubio message id qjvgf agate berkeley edu references apr14 ulkyvx louisville edu nntp posting host garnet berkeley edu rogers is the one batter lefty in the bullpen dusty has also said he trusts rogers to get the final out in ballgame where beck is unavailable so you might see couple of saves for kevin then again if any of the regular rotation falters rogers is possible candidate to start though this would appear less likely now that dave burba did well in an emergency start steven path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech prism gt7469a from gt7469a prism gatech edu brian landmann newsgroups rec sport baseball subject torre the worst manager message id hydra gatech edu date apr gmt organization georgia institute of technology lines joe torre has to be the worst manager in baseball for anyone who didn see sunday game with right hander pitching he decides to bench lankform left handed hitter and play jordan and gilkey both right handers later in the ninth inning with the bases loaded and two outs he puts lankford hitter with power in as pinch runner and uses luis alicea hitter with no power as pinch hitter what the hell is he thinking earlier in the game in an interview about acquiring mark whiten he commented how fortunate the cardinals were to get whiten and that whiten would be regular even though this meant that gilkey would be hurt but torre said he liked gilkey coming off the bench gilkey hit over last year what does he have to do to start the guy would be starting on most every team in the league furthermore in sundays game when lankford was thrown out at the plate the replay showed bucky dent the third base coach looking down the line and waving lankford home can take this anymore brian very distressed cardinal fan brian landmann georgia institute of technology internet gt7469a prism gatech edu newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu darwin sura net uvaarpa maxwell jja2h from jja2h virginia edu subject re brien taylor where is he message id apr15 virginia edu organization university of virginia references p00421 psilink com date thu apr gmt lines last year brein taylor was in ball probably at tampa in the florida state league believe he began this year in aa which is albany hopefully george won rush him and he ll be allowed to progress at his own rate to aaa and then to the bronx this guy is the real thing jonathan alboum uva newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu darwin sura net uvaarpa maxwell jja2h from jja2h virginia edu subject wfan message id apr15 virginia edu organization university of virginia date thu apr gmt lines does any one out there listen to wfan for those of you who do not know what am talking about it is an all sports radio staion in new york on clear night the signal reaches up and down the east coast in particular want to know how len berman and mike lupica show is go to school in virginia so can listen when there are on during the day just wondering jonathan alboum uva ps did any one see steve sommers on hours last night the chief was on too doing rangers round up it was pretty neat shmoozing on tv newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu utnut torn watserv2 uwaterloo ca watdragon uwaterloo ca rcasteto from rcasteto watsol uwaterloo ca ron castelletto subject orioles phillies red sox message id c5j8e0 jfd watdragon uwaterloo ca keywords orioles phillies red sox baltimore philadelphia boston bosox sender news watdragon uwaterloo ca usenet news system organization university of waterloo distribution na date thu apr gmt lines can someone send me ticket ordering information for the following teams baltimore philadelphia and boston also if you have home schedule available can you tell me the dates for all home games between july26 aug6 and between aug30 sept10 and if any of these games are promotion nights or special discount nights thanks ron ps and also who the opponents are for these games do not reply to this account please reply to ronc vnet ibm com ibm canada lab database technology associate development analyst on astelletto tie line internal mail tor newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net wupost udel news intercon com psinntp shearson com motorola bprisco from bprisco shearson com bobby prisco subject re pleasant yankee surprises message id apr15 shearson com sender news shearson com news reply to bprisco shearson com organization lehman brothers inc references netnews upenn edu date thu apr gmt lines in article netnews upenn edu sepinwal mail sas upenn edu alan sepinwall writes and now the not so pleasant surprises tartabull the book on tartabull was keep him healthy and he ll produce well he hasn done too much so far sure he hit few homers but those were all solo shots and he hasn gotten any of the big rbis that your cleanup man is supposed to give you then again he had slow start last year once he got off the dl that is and turned into one man wrecking crew see you in the series alan let see april th less than at bats and you claim that he hasn done too much so far cut this guy some slack danny will produce this year it scary to think just how much he ll produce if he were to stay healthy all year the yanks have lot going for them this year good starting rotation good bullpen good defense and good lineup also like buck showalter frank howard on st is also good move everything sounds good so far if the yanks stay healthy they have good chance at winning the pennant this is the most fun ve had watching the yanks since bobby newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu caen batcomputer cornell tedward from tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer subject old predictions to laugh at message id apr15 cs cornell edu summary long organization cornell univ cs dept ithaca ny date thu apr gmt lines oops came across this file from last year thought you might enjoy some of these thoughts the predictions were made on the date indicated they are largely out of order june tedward cs cornell edu me what have done computed the expected winning percentage for each team from their obp total bases and runs allowed use the basic rc formula and the pythagorean projection then compare this with their actual winning percentage all stats through june team obp tb ra xwp diff baltimore boston toronto new york milwaukee detroit cleveland minnesota oakland texas chicago california kansas city seattle you all know how things turned out the orioles red sox and yankees all disappeared the jays and tigers continued at essentially the expected pace the brewers and indians cranked in the second half the rangers predictably took dive that shouldn have surprised anybody meanwhile as predicted the mariners dropped behind the angels and royals they clearly didn deserve the record in june the white sox and upped their game bit while the twins dropped off little but for the most part things were as expected okay so there were few blatant errors but for predictive calculation thought this did pretty well from cavgeoe yalevm ycc yale edu tue mar the braves insert kent mercker into the starting rotation sometime this year bielecki is traded or released lei brandt becomes the fifth starter and the best bullpen in baseball has pena berenguer stanton wohlers freeman and pete smith who spot starts as well hm pete smith made the rotation instead of mercker and bielecki wasn released until the end of the year won comment on the bullpen jeff reardon blauser wins the starting shortstop job outright by the end of may bream goes on the dl and klesko goes on nice hitting honeymoon la gregg jefferies in platooning with hunter mitchell wins the center field job bit later all star break and nixon stays on as valuable pinch runner lonnie is released unless the braves find taker in trade right on blauser wrong on bream and mitchell bit early on lonnie as with bielecki didn pick sanders did anybody managers to be fired this year in chronological order fregosi showalter valentine riddoch three of them went right showalter is still around and likely to stick it seems from mattel auto trol com mattel auto trol com tue mar bonds gets traded from bucs for some young talent nope they won the division and so kept him for shot at the playoffs mets win division well they didn finish last atlanta repeats in the west got that one right yankees surprise everyone but finish second behind toronto nope dwight gooden wins but is surpassed by saberhagen who wins guess this is why you picked the mets to win huh roger clemens is injured early in the season tsk tsk not nice to predict something like this strawberry fails to hit even home runs and is often injured due to dodgers drop out of race you got that right and my response from tedward tue mar hmph can tell you are mets fan do you mind if make some counter predictions against yours they follow mets come in third behind pittsburgh and montreal okay so the mets finished fifth but got the pirates and expos right the yankees offense and pitching flounders dropping them to fourth place in the al east boston wins games the division the pennant and the world series first half dead on second half ummm sox fan go easy on me dwight gooden rushes his comeback gets blown out and goes on the dl from may through mid july saberhagen runs record wfan criticizes the mets for giving away that great talent jefferies who has solid year in kc so got my predictions for gooden and saberhagen reversed was at least close and was right about jefferies though don know has wfan criticized the jefferies trade roger clemens wins another cy as well as games close no cigar in article udqceao00vpeii li1 andrew cmu edu al1x andrew cmu edu amit likhyani writes excerpts from netnews rec sport baseball apr re nl east smiley trade cavgeoe yalevm ycc yale ops projected for hojo will streak naked down forbes avenue if hojo does not muster more than ops something is wrong with that projection some predictions need no introduction from navarra casbah acns nwu edu mon apr from tedward cs cornell edu do you care to put your prediction down for posterity you predict mark grace will get rbis say you are out of your mind that is almost impossible for hr type guy batting behind dawson who kills most of the rallies he doesn finish why do you say that mark has driven in and last year mark was batting second primarily and it was his worse year average wise since he is batting either rd or th this year predict he will be back up to his previous standards think he will be better rbi is not that much of stretch sometimes us statheads get lucky grace didn hit behind dawson the entire season but he also finished with only rbis from nss3 midway uchicago edu tue may the most ballsy prediction ever mark mcgwire will hit or more hrs this year nope he slowed down and the injury finished him off didn even reach but ballsy prediction nonetheless from ecaxron mars lerc nasa gov thu may baltimore will not fade they will not win the division this year but they will finish within five games find the prospect of two orioles winning each easier to comprehend than that of two sox no offense think their pitching is about as good as the division has to offer the orioles finished seven games out none of them won though mussina might have had chance with better relief and more starts nobody else in the division is worth darn they all finish minimum of fifteen games out the tribe that another reason to watch baltimore this year and next they won waste many of those games against the rest of the division except for the brewers who you probably forgot you were right the rest of the division was thoroughly mediocre the yankees and indians led with wins the red sox trailed with wins none were horrible but four were five or more games below from djohnson cayley uwaterloo ca david johnson date thu aug gmt right that was me never said the jays were cinch to clinch it but said that milwaukee will be more of threat than baltimore do think that toronto should win it but after don consider anything cinch unless you have something like game lead with games to go do think that the jays have the best talented team in the al east and if we had good or even average manager we might have bigger lead right now also think that the orioles will not play much better than baseball for the rest of the season you win from king cogsci ucsd edu thu nov in article nov13 cs cornell edu you write indians the first and only season ever prediction the cleveland indians will win or more games next year you were right from stvjas meteor wisc edu fri sep jose rijo will win the cy young award if he is healthy enough to go at least ip who would have thought he would try to steal base why risk such an injury he had ip but didn win the cy young maddux surprised all the orioles will win games in at least of the next years probably the last and their pitching staff will have team era among the best in the al in at least of the next years but not necessarily all the same years as they win this one will take long time to verify don think want to wait that long but they won games last year and they were fifth in the league in era not bad start ben mcdonald will not challenge for an era title in the next years nor will he have victories either year by challenge mean finish among the leaders being among the leaders before the season is done doesn count he will probably never be the pitcher he was hyped to be but is still decent starter to have looks like it he wasn bad last year just too consistent to be an ace so far this year looks like more of the same the phillies will give up many fewer walks if when they get rid of their bullpen coach ryan am not predicting when or whether they will get rid of him and you will have to give the team little bit of time to adjust before seeing the radical change they would have fine pitching staff if they would just steal ray miller away from pittsburg the white sox seem to have the same problem but not as bad honestly can say did they get rid of him their bb totals were down last year ricky jordan will have rbi if he starts games hitting in the or or spot in any lineup or the spot in lineup with very good obp in the hitters this applies for each of the next years just don think he that good billy ripken will never again hit over with ab so far so good definitely not waiting to check this one from panix spira cmcl2 nyu edu fri sep no matter what lou gorman and his scouts say paul quantrill will never ever be an adequate major league starter never have never seen starting pitcher who can only strike out per innings at aaa be successful in the majors current plans seem to be to use quantrill in long relief he has rubber arm and unusual delivery he might be decent in that role from lyle ecn purdue edu sat sep frank thomas hal morris division winners east baltimore orioles west chicago white sox pennant chicago white sox east st louis cardinals west cincinatti reds pennant cincinatti reds champion cincinatti reds wrong on all of the above hal morris and my favorites from tedward sun oct belle will not walk as many as times in belle will hit more hr than he has walks in belle hit hr last year walking times but five of those were intentional okay so exaggerate but might have been right from trn strdev jhuapl edu tue mar are the going to sign cal of is eli wallet welded shut outgoing money only wide open for incoming cash my prediction which you may make note of valentine is that eli jacobs will defer any serious negotiations on cal ripken contract until the season is over eli will give cal every opportunity to have his stats tumble bit from last year pace before coming forth with an offer despite claims that op cy was designed to cal strength my feeling is that the foot left center canyon will cut down on cal power stats after all it hard to credibly to offer million year to an all star game mvp al mvp gold glove shortstop baseball deity but it be lot easier to offer similar salary to an obviously declining but above average shortstop who had career year one full season ago of course if cal does match his numbers then eli is going to be faced with rather huge and expensive problem how much did cal sign for when did he sign if remember correctly he got rather hefty contract despite weak season and finally from jpalmer uwovax uwo ca thu sep generally because of expansion in there will be lot of mediocre talent hanging around much of it will not make it as the expansion teams look for younger talent around which to build their teams my specific predictions as of april jim acker and cory snider will be selling aluminum siding snyder is still in sf acker is gone neither charlie kerfeld nor vance lovelace presently in tiger aa but formerly big leaguers will be playing professional ball they aren in the majors nor will dave rozema who says he keeping in shape with hope for another shot with expansion never heard of him shawn hare and jody hurst will be in the major leagues they are outfielders in the tiger minor league system don think they are in the majors ron hassey will be minor league manager with the yankees dunno what happened to him it will be bye bye for balboni if he still around he stuck in the minors bo jackson will not be starter hm with raines out bo looks to get lot of pt gary huckaby will have moved to alaska permanently they re on the net and dave kirsch will return to canada to live hm thanks for listening valentine newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu caen batcomputer cornell tedward from tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer subject ve found the secret message id apr15 cs cornell edu organization cornell univ cs dept ithaca ny date thu apr gmt lines why are the red sox in first place eight games into the season they already have two wins each from clemens and viola clemens starts again tonight on three days rest what up are the sox going with four man rotation is this why hesketh was used in relief last night hm cheers valentine was wrong the sox have already scored runs in two games this week they should reach without trouble still think it fluke path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech pitt edu dtate from dtate pitt edu david tate newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re braves pitching updatedir message id blue cis pitt edu date apr gmt references apr14 adobe com apr14 pts mot com apr15 acad drake edu sender news pitt edu organization department of industrial engineering lines sbp002 acad drake edu said in article adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes every single piece of evidence we can find points to major league baseball being offense defense run scored is just as important as run prevented of course run scored is just as important as run prevented just as penny saved is penny earned enough with the cliches it not cliche and unlike your comments below it not tautology it needn have been true if every pitcher in baseball were essentially the same in quality if the variance of pitching ability were much smaller than the variance of batting ability then scoring runs would be much more important than preventing them simply because the ability to actively prevent runs would be much weaker my point is that if the braves starters are able to live up to their potential they won need much offensive support if that your point you should have said so what you in fact said was pitching and defense win championships and later pitching is the essence of baseball neither of which says what you are now claiming was your point and neither of which is true it seems to me that when quality pitchers take the mound the other teams score less runs the team that scores the most runs wins and you accuse sherri of mouthing cliches this puts the team with the better pitching at the advantage providing they can stop the opposing team from scoring runs low scoring game would clearly benefit the braves it not clear to me at all that this is true in high scoring games the team with the better offense wins high percentage of the time in low scoring games the split is essentially regardless of team ability they should have many low scoring games due to their excellent pitching and below average hitting on the flip side if you had starting lineup of great offensive players would be arguing that this team would not need great pitchers thought you said pitching and defense win championships and pitching is the essence of baseball david tate dtate pitt edu greetings sir with bat not quick member iie orsa tims sabr hands not soft eye not discerning and in denver they call you slugger the big catullus galarraga and compare you to my own mattingly path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech pitt edu dtate from dtate pitt edu david tate newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re notes on jays vs indians series message id blue cis pitt edu date apr gmt references blue cis pitt edu c5hxlk fix andy bgsu edu sender news pitt edu distribution na organization department of industrial engineering lines substituting irony for brains bruce klopfenstein said dtate pitt edu david tate writes of course they left rbis off we re comparing alomar the individual with baerga the individual so only individual stats count forgot most runs are scored by players stealing home so rbi don count for anything uh right you also forgot that you can get an rbi barring hr with nobody on base what fraction of all runs come on solo hr most runs are scored because there happened to be players on base when the batter did something good use the phrase happened to be advisedly lots of people have tried to figure out who the players are who have the most ability to turn it up notch in clutch rbi whatever situations and what they ve found is that there is no evidence that anyone has such an ability to any measurable extent there are no clutch hitters people who tend to do things that would cause an rbi if there were somebody on base end up getting rbis proportional to how many of their teammates obliged by being in position my mistake agree david tate dtate pitt edu greetings sir with bat not quick member iie orsa tims sabr hands not soft eye not discerning and in denver they call you slugger the big catullus galarraga and compare you to my own mattingly newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu news cso uiuc edu uiatma hbrooks from hbrooks uiatma atmos uiuc edu harold brooks subject re spanky released date thu apr gmt message id c5j8e8 rr news cso uiuc edu references apr12 ncsu edu apr12 sei cmu edu sender usenet news cso uiuc edu net noise owner keywords why organization colorado needs the huckabay kiteball campaign committee lines in article apr12 sei cmu edu wp sei cmu edu william pollak writes deletions spanky isn very good defensively anymore he an offensive liability and judging from his outburst this winter after the bucs failed to sign drabek he jerk with his head in the sand tommy prince on the other hand can hit in the paper simmons was citing the case of tom pagnozzi who never hit in the minors or majors but suddenly somehow learned how geez dal must have slipped something into ted drink sometime comparing prince to pagnozzi offensively is laughable prince has never hit well in the minors and he now years old think pagnozzi was not bad hitter in the minors ll bring in the numbers tomorrow assuming don have another brain cramp and forget he had very good year at louisville before coming up to the majors as recall the hype on pagnozzi coming up in the organization was good hit decent fielding when he got to the majors and didn hit as well as expected not as much playing time he became exhibit in nichols law of catcher defense and got the reputation as an outstanding defensive catcher it not clear he ever learned to hit his four years with more than ab born july year ab ba slg oba no power less than league average walks peak year when he turned now declining if ted is going to invoke pagnozzi as model for prince given that prince has underperformed pagnozzi in the minors it not rosy picture btw still unhappy with moving zeile who had the same reputation coming up in the cardinal organization as pagnozzi except that he was much much better hitter to rd where he could be an average hitter and below average fielder instead of well above average hitter as an average or below average fielding catcher harold harold brooks hbrooks uiatma atmos uiuc edu national severe storms laboratory norman ok used to work for brewery too but didn drink on the job bavasi on dal maxvill view that florida can win the nl east in newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet newsflash concordia ca pavo concordia ca klein from klein pavo concordia ca corelmark subject re players rushed to majors message id apr199312261770 pavo concordia ca news software vax vms vnews sender usenet newsflash concordia ca usenet news system nntp posting host pavo1 concordia ca organization concordia university references wilbur stanford edu apr7 news uta edu apr pilot njin net c5hq3o g4p tss com date thu apr gmt lines missed the original post but aren the expos rushing alomost their entire team this year am from montreal and am fan but geez the expos rank th in salary only the rockies trail and someone at the average age would probably be in first year university corelmark newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net noc near net uunet newsflash concordia ca pavo concordia ca klein from klein pavo concordia ca corelmark subject re cubs expos roster questions message id apr199312304021 pavo concordia ca news software vax vms vnews sender usenet newsflash concordia ca usenet news system nntp posting host pavo1 concordia ca organization concordia university references apr15 vmsb is csupomona edu b0f0 c5de05a0 msu oscs montana edu date thu apr gmt lines in article b0f0 c5de05a0 msu oscs montana edu alird msu oscs montana edu writes in article apr15 vmsb is csupomona edu cvadrnlh vmsb is csupomona edu writes today cubs activated mike harkey from dl whom did they move to make room for harkey also are delino deshields john wetteland of the expos on the dl thanks for anyone who can give me more info ken cal poly pomona wetteland is on the dl effective march or something like that rick wetteland comes off the dl on april rd and will be evaluated on the th he is throwing well and without pain on the side deshields is not on the dl he suffered from the chicken pox and lost this is the official total pounds he will be back hopefully next week walker will be back this tonight or tomorrow corelmark from montreal path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu bert eecs uic edu uicvm uic edu u31851 organization university of illinois at chicago academic computer center date thu apr cdt from david browdy u31851 uicvm uic edu message id u31851 uicvm uic edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re cubs expos roster questions references apr15 vmsb is csupomona edu b0f0 c5de05a0 msu oscs montana edu lines to make room for harkey the cubs sent shawn boskie down to aaa path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu menudo uh edu rosie uh edu st1rp from st1rp rosie uh edu schwam david newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re astros are back date apr cdt organization university of houston lines distribution usa message id apr199311534452 rosie uh edu references apr13 ccsvax sfasu edu c5hhwv cvk austin ibm com nntp posting host rosie uh edu news software vax vms vnews in article c5hhwv cvk austin ibm com marc yogi austin ibm com marc stephenson writes keeping in line with the pessimists on the net ll hold off on the astros being all the way back they could indeed contend but that would count on atlanta encountering some unforeseen problems such as injuries or keeping up their early season abysmal hitting while atlanta has the undisputed best starting rotation feel that their relief staff may be suspect they don have real closer although mike stanton saves has been used in that role didn stanton start off great last year and then falter despite this your point is well taken atlanta doesn seem to have the same personality as ny team thus is unlikely to self destruct for houston to take em atlanta needs to suffer some injuries particularly to their starting rotation astros relief corps holding together if doug jones keeps his changeup effective and xavier hernandez can be effective then it passable there no reasonable left handed help and the middle relief is iffy tom edens was expected to take over the joe boever setup man role but he been injured and he was an expansion team acquisition anyway houston thought that boever would demand too much money so they let him go doug jones can lose his touch he went from cleveland all star closer to the minors in pretty short span from what understand boever and murphy were considered expendable by the club houston felt that their positions could be filled by number of players art doug jones is the key to houston success he must have another great year for houston to challenge in the nl west lousey spring closer to the minors in pretty short span right strong rotation will take the pressure off of the troubling bullpen bit of shakiness at the fifth starter slot but that basically normal taubensee anthony gonzalez and cedeno fulfilling some hitting potential anthony appears to be about there taubensee swing looks lot better this year solid knock against expos last night gonzalez is showing some early power and cedeno still has the loopiest swing this side of tim wallach the unsuspected strength of the lower part of the order has saved the club so far biggio and finley just aren doing their job of getting on base instead of filling his role as an rbi man bagwell has had to assume biggio and finley job biggio concerns me since he usually starts the season very strong on side note are you at all concerned with the rumors concerning next year uniform there is talk that their road uniform will be blech traditional grey with the word houston written across the chest if not mistaken their home uniforms may totally eliminate the color orange shiver mclane favorite color is red so really upset the current unforms are dull and the new ones sound horrible like to see the uniform of the mid return they may not have been pretty but houston had established long precident of wearing the ugliest uniforms in baseball and liked it end of the bargain remember two years ago little relief goes long way then they could win games but doubt it ll project them at wins astros fan since the days of staub morgan jackson aspromonte dierker marc stephenson ibm aws advanced workstations systems austin tx disclaimer the content of this posting is independent of official ibm position internet marc austin ibm com vnet marc at ausvmq ibm astros fan since the days of ryan scott smith cruz davis bass hatcher david schwam university of houston st1rp jetson uh edu newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net wupost gumby yale yale edu news yale edu berkeley kstar node net yale edu user from steve tomassi subject dave kingman for the hall of fame message id apr15 news yale edu followup to rec sport baseball sender news news yale edu usenet news system nntp posting host berkeley kstar node net yale edu organization yale computing center date thu apr gmt lines hi baseball fans so what do you say don you think he deserves it mean heck if dave winfield ho hum is seriously being considered for it as is lee smith ha then why don we give dave kingman chance or darrell evans yeah yeah after the hall of fame takes in them it can take in eddie murray and jeff reardon well in any case am sick and tired mostly sick of everybody giving hall of fame consideration to players that are by today standards marginal honestly ozzie smith and robin yount don belong there they re both shortstops that just hung around for long time big deal let be little more selective huh stop handing out these honors so liberally save them for the guys who really deserve it face it if something isn done there will be little prestige in the hall of fame anymore when certain individuals believe that steve garvey or jack morris are potential candidates the absurdity is apparent gee can these guys even compare to the more likely future hall of famers like kirby puckett or nolan ryan steve newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com emory swrinde zaphod mps ohio state edu darwin sura net newsserver jvnc net siemens princeton crux roger from roger crux princeton edu roger lustig subject re seeking moe berg reference info message id apr15 princeton edu originator news nimaster sender news princeton edu usenet news system nntp posting host crux princeton edu reply to roger astro princeton edu roger lustig organization princeton university references blue cis pitt edu apr93 vax clarku edu c5hvfs dw news cis umn edu distribution na date thu apr gmt lines in article c5hvfs dw news cis umn edu lsmith deci cs umn edu lance squiddie smith writes in article apr93 vax clarku edu hhenderson vax clarku edu writes david tate writes also in particular colleague of mine is looking for any information he can find on moe berg catcher linguist espion of ww2 any references or anecdotes for that matter would be appreciated moe berg my hero we were just talking about him on monday at the yankee game well there book about him that just been reissued think the title is moe berg athlete scholar spy by tom sewell and two other people whose names forget sewell wrote the chapter on berg in danny peary book cult baseball players this is good source for some of the more famous anecdotes about berg also excellent is the section on him in bill gilbert book they also served about baseball during wwii told berg spy activities are mentioned in the recent book heisenberg war his sister also wrote book about moe that she self published the title is something like my brother morris berg it mainly some of her memories and page after page of xerox copies of pictures and letters that moe had saved copies are kinda hard to find but the smith baseball library has one for those in minneapolis we have one here at berg alma mater class of it kind of sour thing she disapproved of the job that sewell et al had done roger newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu sample eng ohio state edu purdue mentor cc purdue edu noose ecn purdue edu iies ecn purdue edu mcdowell from mcdowell iies ecn purdue edu james mcdowell subject texas ranger ticket info message id mcdowell iies ecn purdue edu sender news noose ecn purdue edu usenet news organization purdue university engineering computer network date thu apr gmt lines would someone please give me the address for texas ranger ticket orders thanks very much jim newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel wupost sdd hp com hpscit sc hp com cupnews0 cup hp com news1 boi hp com rdetweil from rdetweil boi hp com richard detweiler subject re torre the worst manager sender news boi hp com news server project message id c5jbog eyh boi hp com date thu apr gmt references hydra gatech edu organization hewlett packard boise printer division lines from another not so distressed but still wondering about few things cardinal fan in article hydra gatech edu gt7469a prism gatech edu brian landmann writes joe torre has to be the worst manager in baseball he not the greatest this is true for anyone who didn see sunday game saw it with right hander pitching he decides to bench lankform left handed hitter and play jordan and gilkey both right handers lankford was hurt although the announcer said he told torre he could pinch hit if they needed him to later in the ninth inning with the bases loaded and two outs he puts lankford hitter with power in as pinch runner and uses luis alicea hitter with no power as pinch hitter what the hell is he thinking wondered the same thing but giving joe the benefit of the doubt say he was thinking that lankford is hurt enough that he didn trust his ability to bat effectively but he wants his speed on the bases so pinch run him alicea was completely confused about maybe he had good record hitting against that particular pitcher don know anybody got an idea earlier in the game in an interview about acquiring mark whiten he commented how fortunate the cardinals were to get whiten and that whiten would be regular even though this meant that gilkey would be hurt but torre said he liked gilkey coming off the bench gilkey hit over last year what does he have to do to start the guy would be starting on most every team in the league well so far haven seen much to say whiten shouldn be playing but it is too bad that gilkey is the odd man out when they play jordan ahead of him that don quite understand furthermore in sundays game when lankford was thrown out at the plate the replay showed bucky dent the third base coach looking down the line and waving lankford home yup looked for this on the replay too if joe torre going to have talk with bucky after the game on that one he got lankford at third with todd zeile believe hot hitter coming up there no reason to risk giving lankford the go sign in that situation unless he was sure the ball is going to the stands it his job to watch the play develop he should have known larkin was there to back up bad throw that seemed inexcusable in my book btw saw dent do the same thing last year with zeile rounding third and going into sure out at home in critical situation on the replay there dent waving him around it looks like this might be serious problem the card weren good base runners at all last year and wonder how much of the fault lies in the base coaching can take this anymore well still hanging in there go redbirds woof woof brian very distressed cardinal fan brian landmann georgia institute of technology internet gt7469a prism gatech edu dick detweiler rdetweil hpdmd48 boi hp com newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel news udel edu ravel udel edu philly from philly ravel udel edu robert hite subject re dave kingman for the hall of fame message id c5jbse kkk news udel edu sender usenet news udel edu nntp posting host ravel udel edu organization university of delaware references apr15 news yale edu date thu apr gmt lines in article apr15 news yale edu steve tomassi writes honestly ozzie smith and robin yount don belong there they re both shortstops that just hung around for long time big deal are you for real how many gold gloves does ozzie smith have if guy hung around and hit homers year for years wouldn he be given for the hall is defense not just as important and if robin yount couldn hit why would he have stuck around long enough to get hits are you saying hits is fluke hits is no big deal let be little more selective huh stop handing out these honors so liberally save them for the guys who really deserve it face it if something isn done there will be little prestige in the hall of fame anymore when certain individuals believe that steve garvey or jack morris are potential candidates the absurdity is apparent gee can these guys even compare to agree garvey and morris don deserve it the more likely future hall of famers like kirby puckett or nolan ryan well based on your argument nolan ryan doesn deserve the hall of fame he is just right hander who stuck around for long time and could throw hard very few game winning seasons lots of losing seasons lots of walks no cy young awards how does nolan ryan compare to guy like steve carlton who dominated or major league seasons won divisons world series and won half of his teams games in he doesn compare not even close kirby puckett hasn done it long enough for me give me more seasons like he been having then ll think about it newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel news udel edu ravel udel edu philly from philly ravel udel edu robert hite subject re wfan message id c5jc3z knd news udel edu sender usenet news udel edu nntp posting host ravel udel edu organization university of delaware references apr15 virginia edu date thu apr gmt lines in article apr15 virginia edu jja2h virginia edu writes does any one out there listen to wfan for those of you who do not know what am talking about it is an all sports radio staion in new york on clear night the signal reaches up and down the east coast in particular want to know how len berman and mike lupica show is go to school in virginia so can listen when there are on during the day just wondering the fan is an okay sports radio station but doesn come close to the ultimate in sports radio wip in philadelphia the signal might not be as powerful but then again only stations in new york feel obligated to pollute everyone else airwaves with bunch of hoodlum mets fans complaining hours day wip took two of your best sports jockeys too jody macdonald and steve fredericks wip is rockin with sports talk from am till midnight check it out anytime your within few hours of philadelphia if not mistaken wip has the highest sports talk ratings in the nation rob the only nice thing about the fan is that they talk sports all night hopefully will begin to do that somewhat soon newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech rpi scott skidmore edu jrogoff from jrogoff scott skidmore edu jay rogoff subject re expanded nl strike zone was re surfeit of offense message id apr15 scott skidmore edu organization skidmore college saratoga springs ny references news duke edu date thu apr gmt lines it was my impression watching the mets rockies that umpires were calling strikes above the belt too but not as far up as the letters it would be nice if this were the case jay newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net noc near net nic umass edu umassd edu smucs1 umassd edu acsddc from acsddc smucs1 umassd edu subject fenway gif message id c5jb3d nt umassd edu sender usenet umassd edu usenet news system reply to acsddc smucs1 umassd edu organization umass dartmouth no dartmouth ma date thu apr gmt lines was wondering if anyone had any kind of fenway park gif would appreciate it if someone could send me one thanks in advance dan path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu news acns nwu edu uicvm uic edu u49839 organization university of illinois at chicago academic computer center date thu apr cdt from u49839 uicvm uic edu message id u49839 uicvm uic edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re harry caray distribution na references c5alj5 cgf news cso uiuc edu lines last night bill veeck cam to me in my dreams and this is what he said cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs scuk cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs cuck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck oh yeah he aqlso added that harry is drunken idiot who shoulda stayed in st louis where his heart is but also added that fair weathered fans all like to be together guess this is the reason harry is now cub fan bud man note he never really left st louis jim walker go sox cubs suck newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel news udel edu ravel udel edu philly from philly ravel udel edu robert hite subject re old predictions to laugh at message id c5jcrf krm news udel edu sender usenet news udel edu nntp posting host ravel udel edu organization university of delaware references apr15 cs cornell edu date thu apr gmt lines in article apr15 cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes oops came across this file from last year thought you might enjoy some of these thoughts the predictions were made on the date indicated they are largely out of order much crap deleted managers to be fired this year in chronological order fregosi showalter valentine riddoch three of them went right showalter is still around and likely to stick it seems dead wrong last time checked jim fregosi was still managing the phillies and doing quite fine job thank you best record in baseball at my prediction for jim fregosi will win manager of the year in the nl don flame me flame the bum who thinks he got fired last year pay attention kiddo newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu news cso uiuc edu uxa cso uiuc edu cka52397 from cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc subject re dave kingman for the hall of fame date thu apr gmt message id c5jbod b27 news cso uiuc edu references apr15 news yale edu sender usenet news cso uiuc edu net noise owner organization university of illinois at urbana lines steve tomassi writes hi baseball fans so what do you say don you think he deserves it mean heck if dave winfield ho hum is seriously being considered for it as is lee smith ha then why don we give dave kingman chance or darrell evans yeah yeah after the hall of fame takes in them it can take in eddie murray and jeff reardon well in any case am sick and tired mostly sick of everybody giving hall of fame consideration to players that are by today standards marginal honestly ozzie smith and robin yount don belong there they re both shortstops that just hung around for long time big deal let be little more selective huh stop handing out these honors so liberally save them for the guys who really deserve it face it if something isn done there will be little prestige in the hall of fame anymore when certain individuals believe that steve garvey or jack morris are potential candidates the absurdity is apparent gee can these guys even compare to the more likely future hall of famers like kirby puckett or nolan ryan steve what the difference between nolan ryan and yount both have hung around for years and continue to post great stats why shouldn dave kingman get into the hall or murray evens reardon and others what the hell do you have to do ask an opposing pitcher whether he thinks that winfield should be in the hall god pretty soon you ll be saying that cal ripken doesn deserve to be in the hall then ll flame you chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu neil peart quick to judge quick to anger slow to understand ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech prism re4 from re4 prism gatech edu russell earnest newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re players rushed to majors message id hydra gatech edu date apr gmt references apr pilot njin net apr15 holos0 uucp organization georgia institute of technology lines in article apr15 holos0 uucp lbr holos0 uucp len reed writes in article c5hq3o g4p tss com hanson tss com hanson loo writes didn bob horner go straight from arizona state univ to the atlanta braves remember he had one great month hitting dingers and then the next heard he was in japan month well he did have short career compared to what one might have expected for such highly touted prospect due to being injury prone overweight and having no work ethic but he certainly did not suffer from being rushed to the bigs sorry len this is exactly how he suffered from being rushed to the bigs being overweight and having no work ethic leading to being injury prone with nothing to loose might have been corrected in richmond did you intend smiley after your comment this brings back the long suffering memories of pre chop braves fans who kept being promised the bob horner dale murphy back to back power slam who could stop that guess we ll never know rocky fans are there any yet is dale getting any playing time out there plan to be at the game on june th they ll have to play him then read that to memory and process it russell earnest georgia institute of technology atlanta georgia uucp allegra amd hplabs seismo ut ngp gatech prism re4 arpa russell earnest housing gatech edu newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net wupost gumby calvin ursa dholle15 from dholle15 ursa calvin edu david hollebeek subject phillies mailing list message id dholle15 ursa sender news calvin edu the annoying news pseudo user nntp posting host ursa organization calvin college date thu apr gmt lines anyone know of phillies mailing list out there they don get much coverage up here in grand rapids mi sob elaborate signature files are for people who aren as busy as am dh david hollebeek dholle15 ursa calvin edu newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu magnus acs ohio state edu scasburn from scasburn magnus acs ohio state edu steven casburn subject re do people want stats message id apr15 magnus acs ohio state edu sender news magnus acs ohio state edu nntp posting host magnusug magnus acs ohio state edu organization the ohio state university references hpfcso fc hp com hpfcso fc hp com date thu apr gmt lines in article hpfcso fc hp com dougs hpfcso fc hp com doug steele wri tes this is top posting for the al home runs hits batter team hrs batter team hits gonzalez tex baerga cle palmer tex phillips det did anyone think that texas would have the top two home run leaders at given point in the season and neither one would be jose canseco steve steve casburn scasburn magnus acs ohio state edu personally despair of results from anything but violent and ruthless truth telling that will work in the end even if slowly john maynard keynes path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net agate dog ee lbl gov network ucsd edu news acns nwu edu uicvm uic edu u49839 organization university of illinois at chicago academic computer center date thu apr cdt from u49839 uicvm uic edu message id u49839 uicvm uic edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re white sox update references qa0ob iln hermes athena com apr11 midway uchicago edu lines think lamont is tryin sax out in left because he is messing with his mind he is trying to stir loose the mental block that he has had sax was supposed to play in left last night but we were rained out it not like we need to add any more outfielders to our team it mental jimmy go sox cubs suck that the white sox dontcha know newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu msuinfo uchinews milo mcs anl gov jmac msd anl gov user from jaeastman anl gov jeff eastman subject re cubs expos roster questions message id jaeastman jmac msd anl gov followup to rec sport baseball sender usenet mcs anl gov organization argonne national laboratory references apr15 vmsb is csupomona edu b0f0 c5de05a0 msu oscs montana edu apr199312304021 pavo concordia ca date thu apr gmt lines in article apr199312304021 pavo concordia ca klein pavo concordia ca corelmark wrote in article b0f0 c5de05a0 msu oscs montana edu alird msu oscs montana edu writes in article apr15 vmsb is csupomona edu cvadrnlh vmsb is csupomona edu writes today cubs activated mike harkey from dl whom did they move to make room for harkey also are delino deshields john wetteland of the expos on the dl thanks for anyone who can give me more info ken cal poly pomona wetteland is on the dl effective march or something like that rick the cubs sent boskie to iowa to make room for harkey jeff eastman jaeastman anl gov path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc sdd hp com network ucsd edu news cerf net pagesat olivea bunker sheldev shel isc br com jerry from jerry sheldev shel isc br com gerald lanza newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re seeking moe berg reference info message id c5jb37 bcy bunker shel isc br com date apr gmt references pph6m mlb usenet ins cwru edu apr5 adobe com blue cis pitt edu sender news bunker shel isc br com organization olivetti north america shelton ct lines in article blue cis pitt edu dtate pitt edu david tate writes seem to have misplaced the baseball bibliography that was posted here recently that what happens when you have to split heap of disorganized files from one machine among two others could some kind soul repost the bibliography or mail me copy also in particular colleague of mine is looking for any information he can find on moe berg catcher linguist espion of ww2 any references or anecdotes for that matter would be appreciated dave believe si had an in depth article on moe while ago remember that the article revealed some new facts regarding the secretive moe my si subscription expired this past february the second of two years that received same therefore my guess is that the article appeared sometime in can anyone else be more definitive as to date of the si article jerry path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc sdd hp com network ucsd edu news cerf net pagesat olivea bunker sheldev shel isc br com jerry from jerry sheldev shel isc br com gerald lanza newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re the phillies deja vu keywords phillies message id c5jcb0 bjx bunker shel isc br com date apr gmt references apr14 cabell vcu edu sender news bunker shel isc br com organization olivetti north america shelton ct lines in article apr14 cabell vcu edu csc2imd cabell vcu edu ian derby writes after reading my local paper today found out that the phillies started the season at am not as old as but ve heard many talk about the serious choke job the phillies did that season they were ahead of the cardinals by games that season in mid august they managed to lose bunch from then on and the cardinals took the division games ahead and lost it hope this season is much different strictly from memory think the phillies were something like ten games up with to go lost in row and of last to lose to the cardinals seems impossible but thats how remember it also felt at the time that johnny callison of the phillies lost the mvp as by product of their swoon jerry in single team out of won the pennant no divisions path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu emory swrinde network ucsd edu news cerf net pagesat olivea bunker sheldev shel isc br com jerry from jerry sheldev shel isc br com gerald lanza newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re orioles trivia message id c5jblb bfx bunker shel isc br com date apr gmt references apr13 galileo cc rochester edu apr14 hpcvaac cv hp com sender news bunker shel isc br com organization olivetti north america shelton ct lines in article apr14 hpcvaac cv hp com paula koufax cv hp com paul andresen writes in article apr13 galileo cc rochester edu sparky balsa lle rochester edu michael mueller writes hi all does anyone know who were the pitchers for the orioles that were referred to as the kiddy corp because they were so young steve barber chuck estrada jack fisher milt pappas this list brings to mind possible the worst trade since babe for nono nannette milt pappas for frank robinson think in robinson proceeded to win the triple crown in and may have beaten out yaz in but was injured on slide into second when he collided with the mighty al weis chisox jerry newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net bogus sura net udel sbcs sunysb edu sbgrad5 wynblatt from wynblatt sbgrad5 cs sunysb edu michael wynblatt subject dumb fans was re indians woofing message id apr15 sbcs sunysb edu keywords woofing sender usenet sbcs sunysb edu usenet poster nntp posting host sbgrad5 organization state university of new york at stony brook references bcc3ee1 ohstpy mps ohio state edu date thu apr gmt lines in article bcc3ee1 ohstpy mps ohio state edu letizia ohstpy mps ohio state edu writes do you mean just like reds fans have you listened to wlw anytime they open up the lines for fans to call talk about clueless idiots the broadcasters are just as bad too jl the new york talk shows are just awful in this regard people are constantly calling wfan and wabc with stuff like was thinking why don the yankees trade kaminicki and silvestri to seattle for ken griffey jr and randy johnson that would really help the team or do you think the yankees can get roger clemens the show hosts are pretty good about handling these guys but it still annoying the best one was at the end of one show caller started out with was thinking why don the yankees trade for and then the host hung up on him cheered michael newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net bogus sura net udel sbcs sunysb edu sbgrad5 wynblatt from wynblatt sbgrad5 cs sunysb edu michael wynblatt subject re tigers message id apr15 sbcs sunysb edu keywords tigers sender usenet sbcs sunysb edu usenet poster nntp posting host sbgrad5 organization state university of new york at stony brook references rk0vsanu miamiu bitnet date thu apr gmt lines in article rk0vsanu miamiu bitnet ryan kearns rk0vsanu miamiu bitnet writes think that the detroit tigers are the greatest baseball organization of all time shameless woofing deleted on behalf of the rest of us tiger fans out here appoligize for this shameless woofing we try to keep it to minimum but we did win game the other day so sometimes it hard to control see phillies fans michael newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu malgudi oar net news ans net newsgate watson ibm com yktnews watson ibm com bones kja from kja watson ibm com kenneth arbeitman subject missing subject header sender news watson ibm com nntp news poster message id apr15 watson ibm com date thu apr gmt reply to kja bones fishkill ibm com kenneth arbeitman disclaimer this posting represents the poster views not necessarily those of ibm references hydra gatech edu nntp posting host bones fishkill ibm com organization ibm east fishkill subject re torre the worst manager lines in article hydra gatech edu gt7469a prism gatech edu brian landmann writes joe torre has to be the worst manager in baseball for anyone who didn see sunday game with right hander pitching he decides to bench lankform left handed hitter and play jordan and gilkey both right handers that because lankford had minor injury from couple of games before that and was day to day only available as pinchrunner later in the ninth inning with the bases loaded and two outs he puts lankford hitter with power in as pinch runner and uses luis alicea hitter with no power as pinch hitter what the hell is he thinking see above earlier in the game in an interview about acquiring mark whiten he commented how fortunate the cardinals were to get whiten and that whiten would be regular even though this meant that gilkey would be hurt but torre said he liked gilkey coming off the bench gilkey hit over last year what does he have to do to start the guy would be starting on most every team in the league at the beginning of the interview torre also said lankford is the one outfield guy who in there no matter what my guess is jordan will eventually end up being odd man out due to low on base percentage whiten was great acquisition decent offense and great defense in rightfield but don worry gilkey will be starting as soon as jordan or whiten displays an extended period of low offensive output newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net sgiblab nec gw netkeeper vivaldi bsdsun esd dl nec com west from west esd dl nec com mike west subject re dean palmer hurt message id c5jebc esd dl nec com sender news esd dl nec com nntp posting host swan esd dl nec com organization engineering and support division nec america inc newsreader tin version pl9 references apr15 news acns nwu edu date thu apr gmt lines edward ouellette edo casbah acns nwu edu wrote think dean got hit by pitched ball the other night he got pinch hit for and didn play against baltimore tonight whats up with that is he hurt please tell me he not he evidentally got hit in the elbow by fernando pitch his arm swelled from the elbow to the wrist or something like that they took rays of the arm and there is nothing damaged he missed the last game with the orioles but he is suppose to be ready for the next game hope this helps mike west west esd dl nec com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net agate dog ee lbl gov network ucsd edu sdcc12 cs demers from demers cs ucsd edu david demers newsgroups rec sport baseball subject scoring runs was re notes on jays vs indians series message id sdcc12 ucsd edu date apr gmt references blue cis pitt edu c5hxlk fix andy bgsu edu blue cis pitt edu sender news sdcc12 ucsd edu distribution na organization cse dept uc san diego lines nntp posting host beowulf ucsd edu in article blue cis pitt edu dtate pitt edu david tate writes uh right you also forgot that you can get an rbi barring hr with nobody on base what fraction of all runs come on solo hr actually for the padres this year so far it they are th in the league in hrs and all have been solo shots pythagorean projection puts them at winning percentage or need some pitching help fast good news though is that hurst has been throwing curveballs any pain threw pitches yesterday should be back in couple of weeks maybe we can trade him to the yankees for militello dave dave demers demers cs ucsd edu computer science engineering demers cs ucsd bitnet uc san diego ucsd cs demers la jolla ca or fax path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu ub newserve sarah albnyvms bitnet js8484 from js8484 albnyvms bitnet newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re pleasant yankee surprises message id apr15 sarah albany edu date apr gmt references netnews upenn edu sender news sarah albany edu news administrator reply to js8484 albnyvms bitnet organization university of albany suny lines in article netnews upenn edu sepinwal mail sas upenn edu alan sepinwall writes some pleasant and then some not so pleasant surprises about the edition of the bronx bombers so far first the pleasant spike owen all through spring training this guy was looking like the second coming of mike gallego but with even worse hitting now the guy is third in the major leagues in ba and he ranked pretty high in total hits and runs scored know it still early in the season but he and pat kelly more on him in minute have provided lot of spark at the bottom of the order that given the big guys mattingly tartabull neill plenty of rbi opportunities let hope he keeps this up pat kelly the guy is finally showing some of the ability that led stick michael to label him star for the wouldn go that far but kelly looks infinitely improved at bat guess the tips he took from boggs in spring training really paid off huh and here thought boggs would never do anything to help anybody besides himself and his glove like always has been terrific he and mattingly comprise the best defensive right side of the infield in all of baseball imho paul neill we had to get rid of roberto kelly partly because he was under too much pressure in ny to be the next barry bonds he won do that in cincy either and partly because he had this real unprofessional tendency to give up in the second half of the year just felt that we could ve gotten more for him than neill well so far neill is turning out just fine he looks like he should be able to duplicate if not surpass mel hall numbers from last year and he keeps opposing pitchers from pitching around tartabull now if only buck would play him against lefties some more to see what he can do wickman friend made comparison between wickman and jack morris they never have impressive stats but they always find some way to win although morris seems to be losing that ability figured that wickman would be the least important part of the steve sax trade best trade since we got that ruth guy maybe winding up as good middle reliever but like what ve seen so far he doesn pitch pretty but he gets the job done key what going on here key was just supposed to provide the rotation with some stability you know shore up the left side provide experience get maybe wins and here this guy is dominating everybody he faces who needs maddux or cone ll take key any day and now the not so pleasant surprises spike owen sure he hitting like crazy but the guy cannot field to save his life and they said he was brought in to provide defense velarde stankiewicz and even silvestri are better defensively than owen remember it still early look for his offense to tail off and his defense to improve hopefully he has that rep because heard that either last year or over the last years or something like that he has the third highest fielding percentage among major league shortstops behind and tony not gonna help this sorry mets team at all fernandez do agree though that he has not looked all that impressive in the field thus far tartabull the book on tartabull was keep him healthy and he ll produce well he hasn done too much so far sure he hit few homers but those were all solo shots and he hasn gotten any of the big rbis that your cleanup man is supposed to give you then again he had slow start last year once he got off the dl that is and turned into one man wrecking crew late in the year so we ll see the bullpen ugh what happened we were supposed to have one of the most solid pens in the majors meanwhile the pen has already blown three saves maybe more haven checked the great howe farr lefty righty tandem farr era is in the or and howe is infinite didn think such thing was possible but it is hopefully they ll get their acts together or else buck gonna burn out the starters for fear that the bullpen ll blow lead in the immortal words of the scooter holy cow seaver that johnny key guy can pitch can he see you in the series alan path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel wupost csm560 smsu edu vma smsu edu ext dak988s from dak988s vma smsu edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re torre the worst manager date thu apr cdt organization southwest mo state univ lines message id bb1c589 dak988s vma smsu edu ext references hydra gatech edu nntp posting host vma smsu edu newsreader nnr vm in article hydra gatech edu gt7469a prism gatech edu brian landmann writes joe torre has to be the worst manager in baseball brian very distressed cardinal fan no hal mcrae is the worst manager in baseball ve never seen guy who can waste talent like he can one of the best raw talent staffs in the league and he still finding way to lose ll be surprised if he makes it through the next weeks unless drastic improvement is made an even more frustrated royals fan darin keener dak988s vma smsu edu newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell tedward from tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer subject re dave kingman for the hall of fame message id apr15 cs cornell edu organization cornell univ cs dept ithaca ny references apr15 news yale edu c5jbse kkk news udel edu date thu apr gmt lines in article c5jbse kkk news udel edu philly ravel udel edu robert hite writes are you for real how many gold gloves does ozzie smith have if guy hung around and hit homers year for years wouldn he be given for the hall is defense not just as important frankly no offense and defense are equally important but the pitcher is of the defense the primary role of every other player is on offense even shortstops are bigger part of the offensive game than of the defensive game they might not do much with their part of the offense but that another issue that being said think both smith and yount deserve the hof they hit pretty well in addition to their defense cheers valentine newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net wupost csus edu netcom com erics from erics netcom com eric smith subject re the phillies deja vu message id ericsc5jgf8 ta netcom com keywords phillies organization netcom on line communication services guest references apr14 cabell vcu edu c5jcb0 bjx bunker shel isc br com date thu apr gmt lines jerry sheldev shel isc br com gerald lanza writes in single team out of won the pennant no divisions make that ten not eight the mets and astros joined the in eric smith erics netcom com erics infoserv com ci newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell tedward from tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer subject re old predictions to laugh at message id apr15 cs cornell edu organization cornell univ cs dept ithaca ny references apr15 cs cornell edu c5jcrf krm news udel edu date thu apr gmt lines in article c5jcrf krm news udel edu philly ravel udel edu robert hite writes dead wrong last time checked jim fregosi was still managing the phillies and doing quite fine job thank you best record in baseball at look asshole got him confused with somebody else didn flame you and would appreciate it if you extended me the same courtesy no don know everything in the world does that surprise you valentine xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec sport baseball soc culture jewish path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu linac uchinews kimbark thf2 from thf2 kimbark uchicago edu ted frank newsgroups rec sport baseball soc culture jewish subject re jewish baseball players message id apr15 midway uchicago edu date apr gmt article midway apr15 references apr93 lafibm lafayette edu qkkodinn5f5 jhunix hcf jhu edu sender news uchinews uchicago edu news system reply to thf2 midway uchicago edu organization university of chicago lines in article qkkodinn5f5 jhunix hcf jhu edu pablo jhunix hcf jhu edu pablo iglesias writes in article apr93 lafibm lafayette edu vb30 lafibm lafayette edu vb30 writes just wondering friend and were talking the other day and we were for some reason trying to come up with names of jewish baseball players past and present we weren able to come up with much except for sandy koufax somebody stankowitz and maybe john lowenstein can anyone come up with any more know it sounds pretty lame to be racking our brains over this but humor us thanks for your help hank greenberg would have to be the most famous because his jewish faith actually affected his play missing late season or was it world series games because of yom kippur the other jewish hof er is rod carew who converted lowenstein is jewish as well as montana only representative to the major leagues undeserving cy young award winner steve stone is jewish between stone koufax ken holtzman might have the wrong pitcher thinking of the one who threw no hitter in both the al and nl and big ed reulbach that quite starting rotation moe berg can catch harry steinfeldt the in the tinkers evers chance infield is stanky jewish or is that just dave cohen kinda misinterpretation whatever doesn look like he stuck around the majors too long ted frank thf2 kimbark uchicago edu sorry the card says moops the of law school standard disclaimers path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse decwrl pa dec com e2big mko dec com nntpd lkg dec com nac enet dec com waugaman from waugaman nac enet dec com glenn waugaman newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re ve found the secret message id apr15 nntpd lkg dec com date apr gmt article nntpd apr15 sender usenet nntpd lkg dec com usenet news system organization digital equipment corporation lines in article apr15 cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes why are the red sox in first place eight games into the season they already have two wins each from clemens and viola clemens starts again tonight on three days rest what up are the sox going with four man rotation is this why hesketh was used in relief last night clemens is going on his normal four days rest last pitched saturday hesketh only pitched one inning yesterday afternoon his first outing since an aborted inning start days before so he should be plenty rested to go in his expected turn this saturday as the th starter not that this is good thing of course like to see well managed four man rotation with this team glenn waugaman digital equipment corporation littleton ma waugaman nac enet dec com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu zaphod mps ohio state edu ub dsinc netnews upenn edu sepinwal from sepinwal mail sas upenn edu alan sepinwall newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re jewish baseball players message id netnews upenn edu date apr gmt article netnews references apr93 lafibm lafayette edu sender news netnews upenn edu organization university of pennsylvania school of arts and sciences lines nntp posting host mail sas upenn edu in article apr93 lafibm lafayette edu vb30 lafibm lafayette edu vb30 writes just wondering friend and were talking the other day and we were for some reason trying to come up with names of jewish baseball players past and present we weren able to come up with much except for sandy koufax somebody stankowitz and it stankiewicz not stankowitz and he not jewish he polish by the way the correct pronunciation according to stanky himself is ston kev itch all the sportscasters get it wrong maybe john lowenstein can anyone come up with any more know it sounds pretty lame to be racking our brains over this but humor us thanks for your help the only other jewish ballplayer can think of is ron blomberg who is best known as being the first dh to appear in major league ballgame alan path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse emory darwin sura net sgiblab rtech ingres brucek from brucek ingres com bruce kleinman newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re jewish baseball players message id apr15 pony ingres com date apr gmt article pony apr15 references apr93 lafibm lafayette edu organization ingres corporation subsidiary of the ask group inc lines in article apr93 lafibm lafayette edu vb30 lafibm lafayette edu vb30 writes just wondering friend and were talking the other day and we were for some reason trying to come up with names of jewish baseball players past and present we weren able to come up with much except for sandy koufax somebody stankowitz and maybe john lowenstein can anyone come up with any more know it sounds pretty lame to be racking our brains over this but humor us thanks for your help hank greenberg sid gordon ron blomberg guess it goes from the sublime to the ridiculous path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu zaphod mps ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu csn cherokee steven from steven advtech uswest com steve novak newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re old predictions to laugh at message id apr15 advtech uswest com date apr gmt article advtech apr15 references apr15 cs cornell edu c5jcrf krm news udel edu apr15 cs cornell edu sender news advtech uswest com radio free boulder organization west advanced technologies lines nntp posting host jaynes advtech uswest com edward ted fischer writes robert hite writes dead wrong last time checked jim fregosi was still managing the phillies and doing quite fine job thank you best record in baseball at look asshole got him confused with somebody else didn flame you and would appreciate it if you extended me the same courtesy what is your problem hite post wasn flame it was correction of your error your reply was flame no don know everything in the world does that surprise you not in the least steve novak ban the bomb ban the pope steven advtech uswest com newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net usc sdd hp com hp cv hp pcd hpcvaac koufax cv hp com paula from paula koufax cv hp com paul andresen subject re braves pitching updatedir message id apr15 hpcvaac cv hp com sender nobody hpcvaac cv hp com nobody nntp posting host koufax cv hp com organization hewlett packard company corvallis oregon usa references apr14 adobe com apr14 pts mot com apr15 adobe com date thu apr gmt lines in article apr15 adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes in article apr14 pts mot com ep502dn pts mot com writes this certainly passes the common sense test for me but is there any statistical evidence to say what percent of defense is pitching and what percent is fielding not yet wish there were it much more difficult to tease these apart than to tease apart scoring runs and preventing runs and thus we come to one of the true beauties of baseball these things along with many others will never be separated almost everything in baseball is situational and interdependent this is what allows us to carry on all the arguments that we have if everything could be explained and balanced on statistical basis none of the wonder and mystery would be left why we might have to resort to just going out the ballyard and enjoy the game itself paul feeling little anti stathead today we will stretch no farm animal beyond its natural length paula koufax cv hp com paul andresen hewlett packard home nw mckinley corvallis or sabr member since newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech paladin american edu howland reston ans net usc sdd hp com hpscit sc hp com cupnews0 cup hp com news1 boi hp com hp pcd hpcvaac koufax cv hp com paula from paula koufax cv hp com paul andresen subject re true story way to go omar message id apr15 hpcvaac cv hp com keywords mariners grand slam omar vizquel sender nobody hpcvaac cv hp com nobody nntp posting host koufax cv hp com organization hewlett packard company corvallis oregon usa references apr14 esca com date thu apr gmt lines in article apr14 esca com vigil esca com sandra vigil writes yesterday april th friend and were discussing the theory put forth by local sports radio station personality that the commissioner less baseball owners had snuck live ball into this years baseball games in an effort to increase home run numbers and attract fans it always possible but if this is the case think that there is some blatant discrimination going on here clearly selig is allowing the opposition to use pre baseballs against the dodgers well guess who stepped up to the plate for his first career grand slam last night against the jays none other than my boy it was truly sight to behold and almost more impressive was that he also got an intentional walk we will stretch no farm animal beyond its natural length paula koufax cv hp com paul andresen hewlett packard home nw mckinley corvallis or sabr member since newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet news cs jhu edu hull cs jhu edu hymowitz from hymowitz hull cs jhu edu hymie subject re and america team is but why message id c5n4sx guz blaze cs jhu edu sender news blaze cs jhu edu usenet news system organization creative sensualities dept jacquie house of underwear references kingoz camelot date sat apr gmt lines kingoz camelot bradley edu orin roth writes well officially it the braves at least up until they started winning it was are they still officially if so why and how did they receive this label my understanding was that ted turner owner of the braves started running his tv station nationwide and started running all of his team games on his nationwide tv station he dubbed his team america team that is the only team at least at the time all of whose games could be seen across america now wor is nationwide out of beautiful secaucus but not all mets games are on wor wgn chicago and wsbk boston are two other superstations at least they are on the east coast don know how many cubs sox sox games they show hymie hymowitz cs jhu edu ll be mellow when dead weird al yankovic you get your mellow laid back attitude from sonny the cuckoo bird josh about me newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com paladin american edu gatech usenet ins cwru edu magnus acs ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu usc elroy jpl nasa gov news claremont edu pomona claremont edu kkeach from kkeach pomona claremont edu subject re super tough baseball trivia message id b29b fc71bbc8 pomona claremont edu sender news news claremont edu the news system reply to kkeach pomona claremont edu organization pomona college references apr17 ncar ucar edu date sat apr gmt lines in article apr17 ncar ucar edu amj rsf atd ucar edu anthony michael jivoin writes in the bruce springsteen video glory days from the born in the usa album they show two quick shots of baseball game on television in the bar bruce and the street band are playing name the teams which stadium who is the pitcher what two batters go down swinging also at the end of the video bruce is throwing at wooden strike zone and his last pitch young boy lines base hit into center as bruce and the kid walk of the field the kid asks him how he did today bruce mentions the team he was playing and that certain player got him in the bottom of the ninth name the player and the team sandiego and graig nettles if anyone gets these ll be impressed anthony jivoin national center for atmospheric research rsf atd fl1 box boulder co path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net news centerline com uunet gatech usenet ins cwru edu agate jtchern from jtchern ocf berkeley edu joseph hernandez newsgroups rec sport baseball subject mlb standings and scores for sat apr th date apr gmt organization jtc enterprises sports division major league baseball dept lines distribution world message id qpj8a dli agate berkeley edu nntp posting host monsoon berkeley edu keywords mlb mlb standings and scores for satruday april th including yesterday games national west won lost pct gb last streak home road san francisco giants won houston astros won atlanta braves lost los angeles dodgers won colorado rockies lost san diego padres won cincinnati reds lost national east philadelphia phillies lost pittsburgh pirates lost st louis cardinals lost new york mets won chicago cubs won montreal expos won florida marlins lost american west won lost pct gb last streak home road texas rangers lost california angels lost chicago white sox won minnesota twins won oakland athletics lost seattle mariners lost kansas city royals lost american east boston red sox lost new york yankees won detroit tigers won toronto blue jays lost cleveland indians won baltimore orioles won milwaukee brewers lost yesterday scores idle teams listed in alphabetical order national league american league new york mets chicago white sox cincinnati reds boston red sox florida marlins california angels houston astros baltimore orioles philadelphia phillies kansas city royals chicago cubs minnesota twins colorado rockies seattle mariners montreal expos detroit tigers pittsburgh pirates toronto blue jays los angeles dodgers cleveland indians atlanta braves texas rangers san francisco giants new york yankees st louis cardinals oakland athletics ppd san diego padres milwaukee brewers rain joseph hernandez rams lakers jtchern ocf berkeley edu kings dodgers raiders jtcent soda berkeley edu angels clippers newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com emory gatech usenet ins cwru edu agate ames elroy jpl nasa gov swrinde zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu linac att princeton crux roger from roger crux princeton edu roger lustig subject re jewish baseball players message id apr17 princeton edu originator news nimaster sender news princeton edu usenet news system nntp posting host crux princeton edu reply to roger astro princeton edu roger lustig organization princeton university references c5jsxs m0 unix amherst edu apr16 scott skidmore edu date sat apr gmt lines in article apr16 scott skidmore edu jrogoff scott skidmore edu jay rogoff writes there is book that you can find in sale catalogues occasionally called jewish baseball stars and baseball mavin peter bjarkman has compiled pretty definitive list of jewish ballplayers in the bigs wish hadn sold my copy of jewish baseball stars it short shelf the one on top of the toilet tank special the writing in that books is so astonishingly awful every sportswriting cliche taken to the nth degree and then mangled that it funny rusinow is the author think roger path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech emory swrinde zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu psuvax1 psuvm wjs112 organization penn state university date sat apr edt from wjs112 psuvm psu edu message id wjs112 psuvm psu edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re phills vs pirates references none apr16 vfl paramax com c5lcop fv boi hp com netnews upenn edu apr17 ulkyvx louisville edu lines hate to be the burden of bad news but think will this time the phillies usually play at either or eastern time for weekdays on sundays the time is usually eastern time boise is in idaho idaho is in part of the mountain time zone and in part of the pacific time zone the times that were given were for mountain time zone starts please check map in case am wrong but am certain that boise is in the mountain time zone thanks for listening the shep newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester news bbn com usc elroy jpl nasa gov swrinde gatech europa eng gtefsd com emory news feed peachnet edu bogus sura net udel princeton crux roger from roger crux princeton edu roger lustig subject re jewish broadcasters was jewish baseball players message id apr17 princeton edu originator news nimaster sender news princeton edu usenet news system nntp posting host crux princeton edu reply to roger astro princeton edu roger lustig organization princeton university references apr17 princeton edu c5mu5z hh8 unix amherst edu date sat apr gmt lines in article c5mu5z hh8 unix amherst edu ddsokol unix amherst edu daniel sokol writes roger lustig roger crux princeton edu wrote in article apr16 acad drake edu sbp002 acad drake edu writes in article c5l9zs world std com eastgate world std com mark bernstein writes for that matter how many gentleman of the press box have been jewish the only jewish sportscaster that comes to mind is steve williams who had phillies show on kyw in philadelphia in the howard cosell is one who comes to mind gee ya think len berman jewish how about steve stone of wgn who does the cubs we already got him under pitchers overrated jewish or tony korhiezer and shirly povich maury dad of the washington post probably is shirley still alive just wondering roger danny path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu linac mgweed mgwhiz prg from prg mgweed mgwhiz att com phil gunsul newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re let talk phillies message id apr17 mgweed mgwhiz att com date apr gmt references apr15 ns1 cc lehigh edu apr16 adobe com organization at information systems lines in article apr16 adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes in article apr15 leland stanford edu eechen leland stanford edu emery ethan chen writes one phrase for you you thanks perhaps it time to start rec sport baseball graffiti where the kiddies can go yell taunts and insults at each other and leave the rest of us in peace sherri nichols snichols adobe com well sherri agree with you except that most kiddies have more sense than to spew their obscenities in front of group of adults try to edit this newsgroup and feed it to one of the local elementary schools they have group of students that just love baseball and are learning to use computers but telling you it gotten to the point that don even edit the files anymore just read them and throw out the trash and thanks to all you people that think it wonderful to include swear word or two in your signature files that really nice have to read the whole article and then toss it out because of the sig don get me wrong know all the words you do and ve even made up some of my own or wouldn be able to edit them out but this just doesn seem to be the place public forum to spew foul language sorry thanks to all you people that keep in mind there might be some decent young people interested in baseball and computers reading this newsgroup they enjoy your articles phil path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet zaphod mps ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu usenet ins cwru edu agate jtchern from jtchern ocf berkeley edu joseph hernandez newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re what with all these scores date apr gmt organization jtc enterprises sports division major league baseball dept lines message id qplh7 e2g agate berkeley edu references apr17 news yale edu qp1m9innfjg senator bedfellow mit edu nntp posting host monsoon berkeley edu in article qp1m9innfjg senator bedfellow mit edu cmk athena mit edu charles kozierok writes in article apr17 news yale edu sean garrison writes stuff about upated inning scores deleted at just that exact time to see the message even results after the game is over are not necessary thanks to mr hernandez who posts daily standings and results here every day am supposed to take that as compliment or put down just wondering do this as service to the entire baseball world on usenet especially for those in the east coast who can get final scores for west coast games in their newspapers or late tv newscasts this is helpful to fans in other countries who either receive only weekly scores or updates by the week also many have requested for this kind of service previously but it was only available through bbs or some pay news services by the way mine is free of charge and has no copyright restrictions if you want to send updates and scores set up private mailing list and use that remember only post final scores and the updated standings once day to the rec sport baseball newsgroup other than that everything is done through private mail currently there are people on my mailing list that branches off into other mailing lists available for many others and the list grows by an average of people day if people on usenet really don want to see the postings do to rec sport baseball on daily basis please just let me know if the response is overwhelming against the posts won do it anymore thanks for your time joseph hernandez joseph hernandez rams lakers jtchern ocf berkeley edu kings dodgers raiders jtcent soda berkeley edu angels clippers path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com emory swrinde zaphod mps ohio state edu ub dsinc netnews upenn edu sepinwal from sepinwal mail sas upenn edu alan sepinwall newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re and america team is but why message id netnews upenn edu date apr gmt references kingoz camelot sender news netnews upenn edu organization university of pennsylvania school of arts and sciences lines nntp posting host mail sas upenn edu in article kingoz camelot kingoz camelot bradley edu orin roth writes well officially it the braves at least up until they started winning it was are they still officially if so why and how did they receive this label probably because everyone that is everyone who has cable can watch every braves game they are the only team that has all of its games broadcast nationwide and if you don like your local team or you don have local team the braves can kind of become your local team because you can watch them every day outta here like vladimir alan what this this is ice this is what happens to water when it gets too cold this this is kent this is what happens to people when they get too sexually frustrated val kilmer real genius newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu emory sol ctr columbia edu zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu ames purdue mentor cc purdue edu noose ecn purdue edu en ecn purdue edu rachford from rachford en ecn purdue edu jeffery rachford subject sandberg update won be long now message id apr17 en ecn purdue edu organization purdue university engineering computer network distribution na date sat apr gmt lines hi all you ryno fans and those interested todays chicago tribune had this written in it today in regards to ryne sandberg ryne sandberg is ahead of schedule in his recovery from broken left hand and could be back in the lineup by may manager jim lefebvre said friday doctors cleared sandberg to swing padded bat at ball in his gloved hand not surprised his rehabilitation has been moved up said lefebvre he fast healer and he doesn like being on the disabled list he been running since he was hurt march and is in the best shape of his life may is his target date for getting back in the lineup hold on to your hats cub fans more later as information presents itself jeffery newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet newsstand cit cornell edu piccolo cit cornell edu crux1 idoy from idoy crux1 cit cornell edu michael subject how to keep score like the officials message id idoy crux1 cit cornell edu sender usenet piccolo cit cornell edu nntp connect nntp posting host crux1 cit cornell edu organization cornell university date apr gmt lines hello all like to learn how to keep score when watch ball games using official scoring methods where can get scoresheets and instructions on how to use them appreciate it mike hofstadter law it always takes michael wilson longer than you think even if you idoy crux1 cit cornell edu take into account hofstadter law douglas hofstadter newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech purdue mentor cc purdue edu noose ecn purdue edu en ecn purdue edu rachford from rachford en ecn purdue edu jeffery rachford subject ryno correction message id apr17 en ecn purdue edu organization purdue university engineering computer network distribution na date sat apr gmt lines made mistake on the posted article been fighting food poisoning for last hours the second paragraph should state the following doctors cleared sandberg to swing padded bat at ball on tee and to catch ball in his gloved hand sorry for the error didn know it until after posting jeffery newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech usenet ins cwru edu agate headwall stanford edu nntp stanford edu addison from addison leland stanford edu brett rogers subject re defensive averages shortstop message id apr17 leland stanford edu sender news leland stanford edu mr news organization dsg stanford university ca usa references steph pegasus cs uiuc edu steph pegasus cs uiuc edu date sat apr gmt lines in article steph pegasus cs uiuc edu steph pegasus cs uiuc edu dale stephenson writes smith ozzie the wizard is the second highest year ever still very good but don like the way his numbers have declined every year in few years may be defensive liability that rich ozzie smith defensive liability brett rogers addison leland stanford edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet olivea charnel rat zeus cymbal calpoly edu jplee from jplee cymbal calpoly edu jason lee newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re surgery for hal morris message id apr17 zeus calpoly edu date apr gmt references apr8 bsu ucs apr9 princeton edu apr12 island com cjkuo symantec com sender news zeus calpoly edu organization california polytechnic state university san luis obispo lines and then cjkuo symantec com jimmy kuo quoth does it strike anyone else how silly it is to impose game suspension on morris let see expect to be back june th how many games do we play before june th take me off the dl games before june th it would be lot more meaningful if the suspension went into effect some number of games after he came back well either way the reds have to play man down for days jason lee jplee oboe calpoly edu jlee cash busfac calpoly edu giants pi the most beautiful equation in mathematics magic for all sad words of tongue and pen the saddest are these number it might have been john greenleaf whittier newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet gatekeeper us oracle com decwrl netcomsv netcom com erics from erics netcom com eric smith subject re and america team is but why message id ericsc5n959 jm5 netcom com organization netcom on line communication services guest references kingoz camelot date sat apr gmt lines kingoz camelot bradley edu orin roth writes well my guess is because america loves underdogs every year no matter the cubs talent or the predictions they never as close to never as possible win anything over the years as the losing has mounted america has fallen in love with these perennial losers the cubs have more fans in chicago then some teams do worldwide the cubs have more fans worldwide than most of the teams in their division combined an aura of excitement surrounds the cubs at the beginning of the season like no one else including the ws champs it must be that eternal hope actually admired the spirit of the fan at the cubs opener several years ago who held up sign that said wait till next year eric smith he threatened me if it was president of the erics netcom com united states you investigate what the erics infoserv com difference comedian of the united states ci jerry seinfeld newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com emory swrinde zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu ux1 cso uiuc edu bradley bradley edu camelot spork from spork camelot bradley edu richard izzo subject re royals message id spork camelot sender news bradley bradley edu nntp posting host camelot bradley edu organization bradley university references randall moose distribution na date apr gmt lines in randall moose randall informix com randall rhea writes the royals are darkness they are the void of our time when they play shame descends upon the land like cold front from canada they are humiliation to all who have lived and all who shall ever live they are utterly and completely doomed other than that guess they re ok oh lighten up what depresses me is that they might actually finish last which believe hasn happened since their second season in never mind that gubizca is with era gardner at our main recent acquisitions lind mcreynolds jose are averaging david cone is about how he was doing in kc before joining the mets several years ago our hitting sucks and our pitching has collapsed and we ve won one game at home they ve won more games in their first ten games than last year and brian mcrae is actually batting over the mendoza line rich newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell tedward from tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer subject re defensive averages shortstop message id apr17 cs cornell edu organization cornell univ cs dept ithaca ny references steph pegasus cs uiuc edu steph pegasus cs uiuc edu apr17 leland stanford edu date sat apr gmt lines in article apr17 leland stanford edu addison leland stanford edu brett rogers writes in article steph pegasus cs uiuc edu steph pegasus cs uiuc edu dale stephenson writes smith ozzie the wizard is the second highest year ever still very good but don like the way his numbers have declined every year in few years may be defensive liability that rich ozzie smith defensive liability why not brooks robinson is defensive liability too and ted williams is weak hitter even great players decline as they age valentine path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com emory swrinde zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu ux1 cso uiuc edu usenet ucs indiana edu master cs rose hulman edu master cs rose hulman edu news from brock nextwork rose hulman edu bradley brock newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re tribune times date apr gmt organization computer science department at rose hulman lines message id qpp83inngbu master cs rose hulman edu references c5c9ja amb unix amherst edu reply to brock nextwork rose hulman edu bradley brock nntp posting host g210b nextwork rose hulman edu in article c5c9ja amb unix amherst edu ddsokol unix amherst edu daniel sokol writes pjtier01 ulkyvx louisville edu wrote is the chicago tribune baseball coverage any good does the new york times have daily coverage boxscores don know about the tribune but the times has daily coverage and boxscores of course they have special emphasis on the yankees and mets beware the original poster looks to be from louisville and chances are louisville gets the edition of the nytimes that is printed in chicago for the midwest this edition has boxscores only on monday and sunday and an extremely skimpy sports section few game summaries mostly just color stories bradley brock department of mathematics rose hulman institute of technology resist not evil love your enemies brock nextwork rose hulman edu some nazarene carpenter newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester news bbn com usc zaphod mps ohio state edu swrinde gatech asuvax ncar uchinews kimbark thf2 from thf2 kimbark uchicago edu ted frank subject ozzie smith defensive liability message id apr17 midway uchicago edu sender news uchinews uchicago edu news system reply to thf2 midway uchicago edu organization university of chicago references steph pegasus cs uiuc edu steph pegasus cs uiuc edu apr17 leland stanford edu date sat apr gmt lines in article apr17 leland stanford edu addison leland stanford edu brett rogers writes in article steph pegasus cs uiuc edu steph pegasus cs uiuc edu dale stephenson writes smith ozzie the wizard is the second highest year ever still very good but don like the way his numbers have declined every year in few years may be defensive liability that rich ozzie smith defensive liability why do you expect him to remain the best shortstop in the game until he reaches his seventy third birthday or something why is it such strange concept that forty one year old ozzie smith might be defensive liability in ted frank thf2 kimbark uchicago edu sorry the card says moops the of law school standard disclaimers newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech usenet ins cwru edu ukma netnews louisville edu ulkyvx louisville edu pjtier01 from pjtier01 ulkyvx louisville edu subject re phills vs pirates sender news netnews louisville edu netnews message id apr17 ulkyvx louisville edu date sat apr gmt lines references none apr16 vfl paramax com c5lcop fv boi hp com netnews upenn edu apr17 ulkyvx louisville edu nntp posting host ulkyvx louisville edu organization university of louisville mlb pit phi monday pittsburg at philadelphia pm tuesday pittsburg at philadelphia pm wednesday pittsburg at philadelphia pm friday philadelphia at pittsburg pm saturday philadelphia at pittsburg pm sunday philadelphia at pittsburg am friday pittsburg at philadelphia pm saturday pittsburg at philadelphia pm sunday pittsburg at philadelphia am monday philadelphia at pittsburg pm tuesday philadelphia at pittsburg pm wednesday philadelphia at pittsburg pm thursday philadelphia at pittsburg pm are these times correct they seem as if they are hrs ahead of the usual tiems for these two teams the origin of that first message was boise which is on central time tierney whoops meant mountain time tierney newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech darwin sura net bogus sura net udel princeton crux roger from roger crux princeton edu roger lustig subject re defensive averages shortstop message id apr17 princeton edu originator news nimaster sender news princeton edu usenet news system nntp posting host crux princeton edu reply to roger astro princeton edu roger lustig organization princeton university references steph pegasus cs uiuc edu steph pegasus cs uiuc edu apr17 leland stanford edu date sat apr gmt lines in article apr17 leland stanford edu addison leland stanford edu brett rogers writes in article steph pegasus cs uiuc edu steph pegasus cs uiuc edu dale stephenson writes smith ozzie the wizard is the second highest year ever still very good but don like the way his numbers have declined every year in few years may be defensive liability that rich ozzie smith defensive liability why do you suppose he immune to the ravages of time he in few years he ll be he doesn get to as many grounders as he used to and will get to fewer still as his legs go as they do on every human so far remember willie mays was defensive liability at he end of his career too ditto mickey mantle ditto just about everyone else who played into their late roger brett rogers addison leland stanford edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet enterpoop mit edu senator bedfellow mit edu athena mit edu cmk from cmk athena mit edu charles kozierok newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re what with all these scores date apr gmt organization massachusetts institute of technology lines message id qpqsjinnp1u senator bedfellow mit edu references apr17 news yale edu qp1m9innfjg senator bedfellow mit edu qplh7 e2g agate berkeley edu nntp posting host electric monk mit edu in article qplh7 e2g agate berkeley edu jtchern ocf berkeley edu joseph hernandez writes in article qp1m9innfjg senator bedfellow mit edu cmk athena mit edu charles kozierok writes in article apr17 news yale edu sean garrison writes stuff about upated inning scores deleted at just that exact time to see the message even results after the game is over are not necessary thanks to mr hernandez who posts daily standings and results here every day am supposed to take that as compliment or put down just wondering it was meant entirely as compliment do this as service to the entire baseball world on usenet especially for those in the east coast who can get final scores for west coast games in their newspapers or late tv newscasts this is helpful to fans in other countries who either receive only weekly scores or updates by the week also many have requested for this kind of service previously but it was only available through bbs or some pay news services by the way mine is free of charge and has no copyright restrictions was not trying to criticize your service at all in fact was trying to encourage others to use it don personally use it but sure others do and that was my point in posting there is no need for individuals to duplicate in an ad hoc fashion what you have already organized if you want to send updates and scores set up private mailing list and use that remember only post final scores and the updated standings once day to the rec sport baseball newsgroup other than that everything is done through private mail currently there are people on my mailing list that branches off into other mailing lists available for many others and the list grows by an average of people day having one person such as yourself who does it is great idea having do it is not that all keep up the good work joseph charles newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet zaphod mps ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu usenet ins cwru edu ukma netnews louisville edu ulkyvx louisville edu pjtier01 from pjtier01 ulkyvx louisville edu subject re and america team is but why sender news netnews louisville edu netnews message id apr17 ulkyvx louisville edu date sat apr gmt lines references kingoz camelot nntp posting host ulkyvx louisville edu organization university of louisville in article kingoz camelot kingoz camelot bradley edu orin roth writes well officially it the braves at least up until they started winning it was are they still officially if so why and how did they receive this label there is no team repeat no team that is america team this is diverse country with mlb teams up north and there is no one team that is america who would the other teams belong to and how does it happen well teams receive this monicker through success cowboys national exposure cubs or both braves it spreas aby successful advertising campaigns harry caray ted turner amd other dupe people into thinking that their representative teams are hip so that people will watch them on tv and buy their products arrogant local fans adapt the monicker and think that their team is the one that america idolize it comes down to dollars and egos tierney from krattige hpcc01 corp hp com kim krattiger date fri apr gmt subject re kevin rogers message id hpcc01 corp hp com organization the hp corporate notes server path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com col hp com news dtc hp com hpscit sc hp com hplextra hpcc05 hpcc01 krattige newsgroups rec sport baseball references apr14 ulkyvx louisville edu lines hpcc01 rec sport baseball pjtier01 ulkyvx louisville edu pm apr what up with kevin rogers of san francisco thought he was slated to be the fifth starter but he only gotten few relief appearences are they going with four starters for now or is someone else the fifth thanks tierney giant have five man rotation of john burkett trevor wilson bill swift jeff brantley and bud black dave burba black has been put on the day disables and dave burba will take his starts newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu usenet coe montana edu warped from warped cs montana edu doug dolven subject mel hall message id apr17 coe montana edu sender usenet coe montana edu usenet news system organization cs date sat apr gmt lines has anyone heard anything about mel hall this season heard he wasn with the yankees any more what happened to him doug dolven doug dolven warped cs montana edu gdd7548 trex oscs montana edu newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet haven umd edu darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu caen uvaarpa maxwell tek2q from tek2q virginia edu todd karlin subject re the mets are rapists message id apr17 virginia edu organization university of virginia references apr17 news yale edu date sat apr gmt lines writes in the new book about the mets it talks about how they like to rape little girls before games sick jerks max is this the book by bob klapisch spelling the worst team money can buy if it is wouldn give the book or anything in it any value whatsoever klapisch wrote the book to make money obviously and sensational literature is going to sell lot better than what he usually writes for the papers not calling him liar but if there was any proof that met player had raped little girl before game let alone doing it on regular basis they would be in jail not shea for those people who do not know what the press is like in new york it is probably more cut throat than in just about any other part of the keith hernandez said it very well on espn couple of days ago they would much rather mention clubhouse fight than two run homer in the ninth to win game do not read klapisch news columns regularly but do know that he has been accused before as being an instigator that enjoys hopefully for only professional reasons to drumb up news story even if there isn one there now as far as the confrontation with bobby bonilla few days ago almost totally blame bonilla no matter what member of the press does and no matter how much of putrid individual he might be that does not give ballplayer the right to threaten journalist personally always thought that beat writer that always follows club around should report the news but not be looking to degrade team don know whether to blame klapisch because that may be the only way to keep job in new york newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet haven umd edu darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu caen uvaarpa maxwell tek2q from tek2q virginia edu todd karlin subject re mel hall message id apr17 virginia edu organization university of virginia references apr17 coe montana edu date sat apr gmt lines warped cs montana edu writes has anyone heard anything about mel hall this season heard he wasn with the yankees any more what happened to him doug dolven japan think newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet usc sol ctr columbia edu news columbia edu cunixf cc columbia edu mike from mike cunixf cc columbia edu michael chen subject re mel hall message id apr17 news columbia edu sender usenet news columbia edu the network news nntp posting host cunixf cc columbia edu reply to mike cunixf cc columbia edu michael chen organization columbia university references apr17 coe montana edu date sat apr gmt lines in article apr17 coe montana edu warped cs montana edu doug dolven writes has anyone heard anything about mel hall this season heard he wasn with the yankees any more what happened to him doug dolven doug dolven warped cs montana edu gdd7548 trex oscs montana edu mel hall signed with japanese team mike mike columbia edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu husc news harvard edu zariski grabiner newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re braves pitching updatedir message id grabiner apr17182442 boucher harvard edu from grabiner math harvard edu david grabiner date apr edt references apr14 pts mot com blue cis pitt edu c5l40c lc murdoch acc virginia edu organization etc organization nntp posting host boucher harvard edu in reply to drw3l delmarva evsc virginia edu message of fri apr gmt lines in article c5l40c lc murdoch acc virginia edu david robert walker writes in article blue cis pitt edu traven pitt edu neal traven writes one also has to separate offense into batting and baserunning with the split probably somewhere around and give baserunning little more credit than that maybe or even give team of roberto alomar and team of john oleruds identical batting stats which wouldn be that unreasonable and even if you don let roberto steal single base they ll score lot more than the oleruds by going first to third more often no offense gordon wouldn give baserunning that much value the above effect is clear but there are other effects as well if olerud hits double any runner on first will score if alomar legs an extra base onto hit in the gap the runner on first may need to hold at third thus olerud doubles have more advancement value than alomar of course alomar is more likely to score after hitting double another reason not to give too much extra value to baserunning is that the runs created formulas work for very fast and very slow teams no team in the ran much but some teams certainly had faster players than others still the current runs created formulas work just as well in the for all teams bill james gives the senators as an example they used harmon killebrew regularly as pinch runner and in stole bases with times caught stealing yet they scored slightly more runs than predicted by runs created david grabiner grabiner zariski harvard edu we are sorry but the number you have dialed is imaginary please rotate your phone degrees and try again disclaimer speak for no one and no one speaks for me newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu linac att att allegra rjh from rjh allegra att com robert holt subject re dave kingman for the hall of fame message id apr17 allegra att com keywords hall of fame winfield kingman murray joe lundy organization at bell laboratories murray hill nj references apr15 news yale edu apr199316413057 jhuvms hcf jhu edu mssc5k4w5 gqe netcom com distribution na date sat apr gmt lines in article mssc5k4w5 gqe netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes no kingman fan just thought point out that he the only player in history to have five three hr games joe carter has four eddie murray three mccovey and gehrig also three ruth mays foxx and dawson two each johnny mize had six three hr games which is the current record bob holt rjh allegra att com newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet think com yale edu news yale edu berkeley kstar node net yale edu user from sean garrison subject re fenway gif message id apr17 news yale edu followup to rec sport baseball sender news news yale edu usenet news system nntp posting host berkeley kstar node net yale edu organization yale university references c5jb3d nt umassd edu date sat apr gmt lines love to see shea stadium gif sean behind the bag vin scully newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com emory swrinde zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu caen nigel msen com yale edu news yale edu berkeley kstar node net yale edu user from sean garrison subject re what with all these scores message id apr17 news yale edu followup to rec sport baseball sender news news yale edu usenet news system nntp posting host berkeley kstar node net yale edu organization yale university references apr17 news yale edu qp1m9innfjg senator bedfellow mit edu qplh7 e2g agate berkeley edu date sat apr gmt lines in article qplh7 e2g agate berkeley edu jtchern ocf berkeley edu joseph hernandez wrote if people on usenet really don want to see the postings do to rec sport baseball on daily basis please just let me know if the response is overwhelming against the posts won do it anymore thanks for your time joseph hernandez mr hernandez apologize for the misunderstanding explained that know that it is essential for some fans to get scores here for they cannot get them elsewhere have no problem with what you do posting scores after the games have been completed however like said earlier don think it is necessity to post scores during the middle of games like some others have come to practice sean newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu linac att att allegra rjh from rjh allegra att com robert holt subject re all time best players message id apr17 allegra att com organization at bell laboratories murray hill nj references apr15 ns1 cc lehigh edu date sat apr gmt lines in article apr15 ns1 cc lehigh edu jsr2 ns1 cc lehigh edu john stephen randolph writes in article apr13 bsu ucs mbstultz leo bsuvc bsu edu writes ve recently been working on project to determine the greatest players at their respective postions my sources are total baseball james historical abstract the ballplayers biography word of mouth and my own biased opinions feel free to comment suggest flame whatever but tried to be as objective as possible using statistical data not inlcuded for time convience sake judged on rel ba adj ops total average fielding range runs total player rating total baseball stolen bases for curiosity sake tpr and years played mvp mike schmidt ed matthews one in eddie mathews george brett wade boggs ron santo brooks robinson frank baker darrell evans pie traynor ray dandridge how can brooks be think he would at least be ahead of ron santo because small advantage in fielding ability comes nowhere near making up for the large difference in hitting their average seasons using their combined average ab bb per games years ab hr rbi tb bb avg obp slg ops santo robinson fielding we have per games at third years dp pct santo robinson even if robinson extra putouts assists and dps are taken to mean he was responsible for more outs in the field that doesn make up for the extra outs he made at the plate not to mention the fewer total bases the difference of in ops should be decreased by about to account for wrigley but difference is still considerable the thorn palmer ratings are adjusted adjusted stolen fielding total production batting runs base runs runs rating santo robinson usual disclaimers about fr apply but they really shouldn be way off the mark in this comparison at least it better than fielding percentage carney lansford has th best all time but fr dead last of all time also since this total rating compares players to league average instead of replacement level robinson should be awarded an extra or so for playing more games he had great career but would prefer santo plus years of replacement level bman but would knock traynor off the list and replace him by stan hack that similar story hack far better hitting outweighs traynor superior fielding graig nettles and buddy bell would also be better choices imho of course though some recent net discussion supports this point of view cf andre dawson shouldn that be right field bob holt rjh allegra att com newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet mnemosyne cs du edu nyx gspira from gspira nyx cs du edu greg spira subject re braves pitching updatedir message id apr17 mnemosyne cs du edu sender usenet mnemosyne cs du edu netnews admin account organization university of denver dept of math comp sci references apr14 pts mot com blue cis pitt edu c5l40c lc murdoch acc virginia edu grabiner apr17182442 boucher harvard edu date sat apr gmt lines grabiner math harvard edu david grabiner writes in article c5l40c lc murdoch acc virginia edu david robert walker writes in article blue cis pitt edu traven pitt edu neal traven writes one also has to separate offense into batting and baserunning with the split probably somewhere around and give baserunning little more credit than that maybe or even give team of roberto alomar and team of john oleruds identical batting stats which wouldn be that unreasonable and even if you don let roberto steal single base they ll score lot more than the oleruds by going first to third more often no offense gordon wouldn give baserunning that much value meant to comment on this at the time there just no way baserunning could be that important if it was runs created wouldn be nearly as accurate as it is runs created is usually about accurate on team level and there lot more than baserunning that has to account for the remaining percent greg newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu moe ksu ksu edu ux1 cso uiuc edu cs uiuc edu pegasus cs uiuc edu steph from steph pegasus cs uiuc edu dale stephenson subject hits stolen second base message id steph pegasus cs uiuc edu summary stolen hits for all second basemen keywords second defense sender news cs uiuc edu organization university of illinois dept of comp sci urbana il date sat apr gmt lines disclaimer this is for fun in my computerized baseball game keep track of category called stolen hits defined as play made that an average fielder would not make with average effort using the defensive averages posted by sherri nichols thanks sherri ve figured out some defensive stats for the second basemen hits stolen have been redefined as plays kurt stillwell would not have made ok realize that unfair kurt probably the victim of pitching staff fluke shots and monster park factor but let put it this way if we replaced every second baseman in the nl with someone with kurt out making ability how many extra hits would go by to try and correlate it to reality little more ve calculated net hits stolen based on the number of outs made compared to what league average fielder would make by the same method ve calculated net double plays and net extra bases doubles and triples let by finally throw all this into formula call defensive contribution or dcon basically it represents the defensive contribution of player add this number to ops to get dops defense onbase plus slug which should represent the player total contribution to the team so don take it too seriously the formula for dcon appears at the end of this article the short version definition of terms hs hits stolen extra outs compared to kurt stillwell nhs net hits stolen extra outs compared to average fielder ndp net double plays extra double plays turned compared to avg fielder neb net extra bases extra bases prevented compared to avg fielder dcon defensive contribution bases and hits prevented as rate dops dcon ops quick dirty measure of player total contribution national league name hs nhs ndp neb dcon dops alicea sandberg thompson lind doran deshields harris lemke morandini randolph biggio stillwell ordered by dops sandberg alicea thompson deshields doran nl average biggio harris randolph morandini lemke lind stillwell american league name hs nhs ndp neb dcon dops fletcher reed ripken baerga blankenship miller alomar knoblauch bordick kelly whitaker reynolds sax sojo order by dops baerga alomar fletcher whitaker blankenship miller knoblauch reed bordick al average kelly ripken reynolds sojo sax more discussion dcon formula nhs ndp pa nhs ndp neb ab why such bizzare formula basically it designed to be added into the ops with the idea that run prevented is as important as run scored the extra outs are factored into obp while the extra bases removed are factored into slg that why used pa and ab as the divisors for more discussion see the post on hits stolen first base dale stephenson steph cs uiuc edu baseball fanatic it is considered good to look wise especially when not overburdened with information golden kimball newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech news feed peachnet edu bogus sura net darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu csn cherokee steven from steven advtech uswest com steve novak subject re old predictions to laugh at message id apr16 advtech uswest com sender news advtech uswest com radio free boulder nntp posting host jaynes advtech uswest com organization west advanced technologies references c5jcrf krm news udel edu apr15 cs cornell edu apr15 advtech uswest com date fri apr gmt lines steve novak writes edward ted fischer writes robert hite writes dead wrong last time checked jim fregosi was still managing the phillies and doing quite fine job thank you best record in baseball at look asshole got him confused with somebody else didn flame you and would appreciate it if you extended me the same courtesy what is your problem hite post wasn flame it was correction of your error that last was me steve novak ve since read the entire original posting by hite mr fischer was actually restrained let mr hite hope he never makes some similar tiny mistake steve novak ban the bomb ban the pope steven advtech uswest com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech usenet ins cwru edu magnus acs ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu ub dsinc netnews upenn edu sepinwal from sepinwal mail sas upenn edu alan sepinwall newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re mel hall message id netnews upenn edu date apr gmt references apr17 coe montana edu sender news netnews upenn edu organization university of pennsylvania school of arts and sciences lines nntp posting host mail sas upenn edu in article apr17 coe montana edu warped cs montana edu doug dolven writes has anyone heard anything about mel hall this season heard he wasn with the yankees any more what happened to him doug dolven mel is alive and well and playing in japan the yanks let him go because he was asking for too much money and because they thought that they were going to get barry bonds making hall obsolete oopsie well at least they got neill to replace the mel man outta here like vladimir alan scene from real genius where val kilmer is trying to pick up gorgeous blonde val so if there anything can do for you or more to the point to you you just let me know blonde can you hammer six inch spike through board with your penis val not right now no blonde girl gotta have her standards she walks away newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net agate deep rsoft bc ca mindlink a4495 from howard wong mindlink bc ca howard wong subject jack morris organization mind link british columbia canada date sun apr gmt message id mindlink bc ca sender news deep rsoft bc ca usenet news at rsoft bc ca lines as of today april jack morris has lost his first three starts however the jays are doing well without him and injured dave stuart this is credit to the rest of the pitching staff has jack lost bit of his edge what is the worst start jack morris has had newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net wupost csus edu netcom com mss from mss netcom com mark singer subject re dodgers take straight from pirates message id mssc5ot6e lx netcom com organization netcom online communications services login guest references qqob2innqev mizar usc edu date sun apr gmt lines in article qqob2innqev mizar usc edu pcaster mizar usc edu dodger writes davis and strawberry attributed their turn arounds to reggie smith the dodger batting coach who flew in from florida three days ago and gave them pep talk and some instruction davis was yesterday and had couple more hits today strawberry had two hits yesterday and believe he had two more today with two home runs foolish me and here thought it had something to do with the fact that they were hitting against wakefield who had no kncukle to his ball that day and otto who has no stuff wonder if reggie gave the same pep talk and instruction to the rest of the lineup who also suddenly came alive those two games the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net wupost uwm edu cs utexas edu tamsun tamu edu tamsun tamu edu news from rlm7638 tamsun tamu edu jack mckinney newsgroups rec sport baseball subject official rules of baseball isbn date apr organization mistress barbara dungeon palace lines distribution na message id qs5n9innh3v tamsun tamu edu nntp posting host tamsun tamu edu am trying to get copy of the official rules of baseball someone once sent me the isbn number of it but have since lost it can anyone give me this information or tell me where can find the book none of my local bookstores have it walking home from school and watching jack mckinney some men building new house and the guy ham jmckinney tamu edu mering on the roof calls me paranoid little weirdo in morse code this space emo philips for rent path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net spool mu edu sdd hp com elroy jpl nasa gov swrinde network ucsd edu mvb saic com zippy telcom arizona edu joplin biosci arizona edu r4938585 from r4938585 joplin biosci arizona edu doug roberts newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re nl vs al date apr gmt organization university of arizona biotechnology tucson lines sender r4938585 joplin biosci arizona edu doug roberts message id qs76j sk2 zippy telcom arizona edu references apr12 cs cornell edu c5dxqp hoo news rich bnr ca nntp posting host joplin biosci arizona edu keywords game length doug roberts ken hill for nl mvp let go spos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net spool mu edu caen msuinfo fisherg from fisherg egr msu edu fisher greg newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re jewish baseball players date apr gmt organization michigan state university college of engineering lines message id qs81d r83 msuinfo cl msu edu references apr15 pony ingres com apr16 husc3 harvard edu apr16 princeton edu nntp posting host eecae ee msu edu in article apr16 princeton edu roger astro princeton edu roger lustig writes in article apr16 husc3 harvard edu fry zariski harvard edu david fry writes once on jeopardy the category was jewish sports heros believe it or not the answer was this pitcher had four no hitters with the dodgers in the the contestant said who is hank aaron alex trebek said something like don think hank aaron was pitcher well it is jewish name roger that right remember hank greenberg newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech europa eng gtefsd com fs7 ece cmu edu pellns alleg edu news from gwittt alleg edu tom gwitt subject re mel hall message id apr18 alleg edu sender news alleg edu organization allegheny college references apr17 coe montana edu date sun apr gmt lines in article apr17 coe montana edu warped cs montana edu doug dolven writes has anyone heard anything about mel hall this season heard he wasn with the yankees any more what happened to him he is in japan playing baseball tom gwitt gwittt alleg edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net wupost sdd hp com saimiri primate wisc edu ames network ucsd edu mvb saic com zippy telcom arizona edu joplin biosci arizona edu r4938585 from r4938585 joplin biosci arizona edu doug roberts newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re sandberg runs rbis was re notes on jays vs indians series date apr gmt organization university of arizona biotechnology tucson lines sender r4938585 joplin biosci arizona edu doug roberts distribution na message id qs8pn zippy telcom arizona edu references c5hpcv hl andy bgsu edu c5jm0m jw cs dal ca c5jqby m7a news rich bnr ca nntp posting host joplin biosci arizona edu in article c5jqby m7a news rich bnr ca bratt crchh7a9 nosubdomain nodomain john bratt writes rbis and runs scored are the two most important offensive statistics you can talk about obp and slg all you want but the fact remains the team that scores more runs wins the game flame away john bratt ok you asked for it guess that doesn bode well for the cubs then does it doug roberts willing to trade frank bolick for bag of used baseballs let go expos newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu news cso uiuc edu uxa cso uiuc edu cka52397 from cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc subject re and america team is but why date sun apr gmt message id c5p3yr gh2 news cso uiuc edu references kingoz camelot sender usenet news cso uiuc edu net noise owner organization university of illinois at urbana lines kingoz camelot bradley edu orin roth writes well officially it the braves at least up until they started winning it was are they still officially if so why and how did they receive this label unoffically but without doubt america team is the cubs why well my guess is because america loves underdogs every year no matter the cubs talent or the predictions they never as close to never as possible win anything over the years as the losing has mounted america has fallen in love with these perennial losers the cubs have more fans in chicago then some teams do worldwide the cubs have more fans worldwide than most of the teams in their division combined an aura of excitement surrounds the cubs at the beginning of the season like no one else including the ws champs it must be that eternal hope this is the year they ve got the talent they re off to good start they ve got the pitching or hitting or whatever their strong point is at the time it that inevitability that the cubs will eventually win the ws again when only god knows since it been so long it could come at any time or it could be another years but until they do finally win and start winning consistently the cubs will remain america lovable underdogs the cubs are america team orin bradley the defenition of the underdog is team that has no talent and comes out of nowhere to contend the mets and orioles are prime examples not the cubs root for the cubs because feel sorry for them but basically they are dogs the pirates today are great example of an underdog if the rockies and marlins compete they will be underdogs the north stars trip to the stanley cup finals was good example of an underdog journey the cubs have good team this year and play in weak division they are much less than america team really jester in disguise chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu neil peart quick to judge quick to anger slow to understand ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net newsserver jvnc net netnews upenn edu netnews cc lehigh edu ns1 cc lehigh edu bbf2 from bbf2 ns1 cc lehigh edu benjamin brooker fradkin newsgroups rec sport baseball subject tigers pound mariners message id apr18 ns1 cc lehigh edu date apr gmt organization lehigh university lines were they palying football or baseball in detroit on saturday from looking at the school some people may think it was football between two games this week the tigers scored runs the offense can carry them hope the pitching will hold out was at camden yards yesterday everytime looked up the score was getting higher what great site it was to see the tigers kicking butt while enjoying game at camden yards go tigers and go tony phillips path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet digex com digex com not for mail from random access digex com random newsgroups rec sport baseball subject scott erickson date apr organization express access online communications greenbelt md usa lines distribution usa message id qsdqj access digex net nntp posting host access digex net does anyone have the scoop on scot erickson how long is he going to be out for newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester news bbn com usc elroy jpl nasa gov swrinde cs utexas edu utnut skule ecf drill me steinman from steinman me utoronto ca david steinman subject re and america team is but why message id c5p6xq gui me utoronto ca sender news me utoronto ca news reader organization uoft mechanical engineering references kingoz camelot c5p3yr gh2 news cso uiuc edu date sun apr gmt lines cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes the defenition of the underdog is team that has no talent and comes out of nowhere to contend the mets and orioles are prime examples not the cubs sorry but it is virtually impossible to win division with no talent over games would amend your definition to underdog team expected to lose but which wins thanks to underestimated talent dave newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu usenet ins cwru edu howland reston ans net noc near net black clarku edu black clarku edu jxu from jxu black clarku edu dark wing duck subject bosox win again the team record is message id jxu black clarku edu organization clark university worcester ma date apr gmt lines today frank viola and rest of pitcher staff of boston red sox shutout chicago white sox it is red sox th win of this season so far red sox won all the games roger and frank pitched and when other three starters were pitching tomorrow dopson will pitch again have good first start and rocky second start wonder that bosox can play over ball without roger and frank newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net noc near net uunet tarpit bilver jwt comarow from bbs comarow jwt oau org bob comarow subject re jewish baseball players reply to bbs comarow jwt oau org organization the matrix date sun apr gmt message id psm82b2w164w jwt oau org references blue cis pitt edu sender bbs jwt uucp lines dave kingman is jewish bob comarow eisner decus org path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester news crd ge com uunet gatech howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu po cwru edu jdl6 from jdl6 po cwru edu justin lowe newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re and america team is but why date apr gmt organization case western reserve university cleveland oh usa lines message id qsk9d dck usenet ins cwru edu references kingoz camelot c5p3yr gh2 news cso uiuc edu c5p6xq gui me utoronto ca reply to jdl6 po cwru edu justin lowe nntp posting host slc8 ins cwru edu in previous article steinman me utoronto ca david steinman says cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes the defenition of the underdog is team that has no talent and comes out of nowhere to contend the mets and orioles are prime examples not the cubs sorry but it is virtually impossible to win division with no talent over games would amend your definition to underdog team expected to lose but which wins thanks to underestimated talent dave ok the mets and are good examples but what about the reds do you really think that anyone expected them to sweep the know people who didn even think they win game let alone win the series we proved them wrong though didn we as for this year ignore their record now they ve had rocky start and that has nothing to do with colorado they shall rise again the hunt for reds october continues with all due respect to wlw bye michelson spring olympics champions road rally legged race rope pull snarf penny wars banner spirit cheer the michelson menace rides again don you just love that intense nationalistic feeling in residence hall path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu linac uwm edu ux1 cso uiuc edu usenet ucs indiana edu master cs rose hulman edu master cs rose hulman edu news from rickert nextwork rose hulman edu john rickert newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re notes on jays vs indians series date apr gmt organization computer science department at rose hulman lines distribution na message id qsmfiinnl8j master cs rose hulman edu references c5hpcv hl andy bgsu edu reply to rickert nextwork rose hulman edu john rickert nntp posting host g215a nextwork rose hulman edu in article c5hpcv hl andy bgsu edu klopfens andy bgsu edu bruce klopfenstein writes cmk athena mit edu charles kozierok writes in article apr13 csd newshost stanford edu nlu xenon stanford edu nelson lu writes guess which line is which ba obp slg ab hr bb just love how the alomar fans left rbis off this list give me break little delayed but in the interests of fairness stats from elias ba obp slg hr rbi rni outs alomar baerga so we see that baerga has large advantage in rbi runs batted in rni runners not driven in and outs john rickert rickert nextwork rose hulman edu newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu linac uwm edu spool mu edu howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu magnus acs ohio state edu csn boulder news from davewood bruno cs colorado edu david rex wood subject baseball spreads message id apr18 colorado edu sender news colorado edu the daily planet nntp posting host bruno cs colorado edu organization university of colorado boulder date sun apr gmt lines how does one read the betting spreads for baseball they tend to be something like which means it must not be runs thanks david rex wood davewood cs colorado edu university of colorado at boulder newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu magnus acs ohio state edu csn boulder news from davewood bruno cs colorado edu david rex wood subject rockies need some relief message id apr18 colorado edu sender news colorado edu the daily planet nntp posting host bruno cs colorado edu organization university of colorado boulder date sun apr gmt lines once again the rockies bullpen fell apart andy ashby pitched six somewhat shaky innings giving up just one run then game the dreaded relief three picthers combined to give up runs one each believe in the th inning and blew the save opportunity final was vs expos despite their problems in the pen think the rockies are team that wont be taken lightly going into today game the had the league leading hitter and rbi man galarraga two of the leaders in stolen bases young and cole and increasingly strong starting pitching david rex wood davewood cs colorado edu university of colorado at boulder newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu magnus acs ohio state edu csn boulder news from davewood bruno cs colorado edu david rex wood subject re rockies need some relief message id apr18 colorado edu sender news colorado edu the daily planet nntp posting host bruno cs colorado edu organization university of colorado boulder references apr18 colorado edu date sun apr gmt lines in article apr18 colorado edu davewood bruno cs colorado edu david rex wood writes shaky innings giving up just one run then game the dreaded relief three picthers combined to give up runs one each believe in the th inning be taken lightly going into today game the had the league leading geez can type or what david rex wood davewood cs colorado edu university of colorado at boulder path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net spool mu edu sol ctr columbia edu eff enterpoop mit edu senator bedfellow mit edu athena mit edu cmk from cmk athena mit edu charles kozierok newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re baseball spreads date apr gmt organization massachusetts institute of technology lines message id qsndfinn1gf senator bedfellow mit edu references apr18 colorado edu nntp posting host marinara mit edu in article apr18 colorado edu davewood bruno cs colorado edu david rex wood writes how does one read the betting spreads for baseball they tend to be something like which means it must not be runs that spread means you bet on the underdog to win or on the favorite to win charles newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu linac uwm edu spool mu edu howland reston ans net gatech asuvax ncar rsf atd ucar edu amj from amj rsf atd ucar edu anthony michael jivoin subject re bosox win again the team record is message id apr18 ncar ucar edu sender news ncar ucar edu usenet maintenance organization national center for atmospheric research references jxu black clarku edu date sun apr gmt lines in article jxu black clarku edu jxu black clarku edu dark wing duck writes today frank viola and rest of pitcher staff of boston red sox shutout chicago white sox it is red sox th win of this season so far red sox won all the games roger and frank pitched and when other three starters were pitching tomorrow dopson will pitch again have good first start and rocky second start wonder that bosox can play over ball without roger and frank as long as the yankees are in the same division the red sox will play better than baseball or the red sox can hire former east german swimming coaches to train them at the fine art of body building the red sox can use chinese women swimmers as reference with the hawk the red sox definitely have chance for the east this year he brings class work ethic and leadership to the park each day and he has burning desire to play in the world series future hall of famer andre dawson will kick butt in boston from rockies country anthony jivoin national center for atmospheric research rsf atd fl1 box boulder co newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu usenet ins cwru edu howland reston ans net wupost newsfeed rice edu rice cac from cac owlnet rice edu christopher andrew campbell subject re royals message id c5pbvw rice edu summary never sender news rice edu news organization rice university references randall moose spork camelot distribution na date sun apr gmt lines in article spork camelot spork camelot bradley edu richard izzo writes about darkness deleted oh lighten up what depresses me is that they might actually finish last which believe hasn happened since their second season in nope the royals are the only team in the majors that have not finished in last place of course this doesn include the marlins and the rockies but they have good chance at finishing last also rich path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu po cwru edu dxf12 from dxf12 po cwru edu douglas fowler newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re jack morris date apr gmt organization case western reserve university cleveland oh usa lines message id qsrhm p5a usenet ins cwru edu references qr05cinnpel skeena ucs ubc ca apr18 cs cornell edu reply to dxf12 po cwru edu douglas fowler nntp posting host slc12 ins cwru edu in previous article tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer says in article qr05cinnpel skeena ucs ubc ca stlouis unixg ubc ca phill st louis writes jack morris starts have been like his playoff starts he has an era of in his starts what does luck have to do with era he was lucky to get wins last year but he had an era of with team that scored lot of runs would be happy if he could still pitch with an era of but he seems to be suffering from total callapse bad pitchers are more prone to this total collapse than good pitchers they are closer to the chasm of mediocrity the smallest push and they completely lose their grip but good ones can collapse somewhat then come back the next year burleigh grimes went from wins and an era of or so in to and an era around in he pitched well for several more years carlton won and lost the year after his record source bill james historical baseball abstract and let not forget john tudor who started and finished in he had pretty bad era when you take busch stadium into account at the start of the season he gave up early runs in his games and would get stronger as the game went on thus giving up few runs in the last going he stays in the game and gets the win how else would he have pitched so many innings yup he used to dig himself hole then get it together and stick in until the run support eventually came through this year he just hasn gotten it together if recall he had era in the st half and era in the nd half of last year hmmm runs in innings suppose he starts more games and winds up innings pitched if he allows runs game in the next innings he ll have era or so at the end of the year think have his totals right this is going to be hard to come back from jack may be finished it is time to retire or be released if he does not return to his form from last year his million contract is an awful lot to eat my st hunch is that morris is very gutsy and that he may be pitching through an injury and not telling anyone my nd guess is that he will be banished to the bullpen the remainder of the season after few more starts perhaps when stewart comes off the dl or will danny cox who went or scoreless innings against the tribe today start for morris he looks like really good one gaston is scrambling to find starters imagine luckily the jays have very good offense don think they would dare release him before the end of the year he ll just be replaced by stewart or cox doug fowler dxf12 po cwru edu me age now mommys and daddys other ever wonder if after casey relatives have to give lots of hugs love missed the rd strike in the poem support cause heaven is just great he ran to first and made it big hug that lasts forever and ever newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu usenet ucs indiana edu silver ucs indiana edu rstimets from rstimets silver ucs indiana edu robert and stimets subject reds snap game losing streak redreport message id c5pfq3 dz usenet ucs indiana edu keywords finally sender robert stimets nntp posting host silver ucs indiana edu organization indiana university date mon apr gmt lines kevin mitchell sacrifice fly in the eighth off brett saberhagen plated pitch runner cesar hernandez to give the reds come from behind victory over new york hernandez ran for pinch hitter cecil espy who got the inning started with solid single to right moved to second on bob kelly infield sneaker down the third base line and to third on jeff branson well placed bunt rare show of excellent execution by the recently hapless reds offense cincinnati trailed after starter tim pugh blinked in the fifth he had only given up one hit in the first four innings fourth inning lead off double by vince coleman coleman was left stranded at third by bobby bonilla after joe orselak popped to short orselak was pinch hitting for eddie murray who argued plate umpire kellogg inside strike by drawing the line really he should know better than that murray and later manager jeff torborg ended up getting tossed the mets fifth started with howard johnson first pitch homer pugh must have been slightly shaken as he was popped on the next pitch by jeff kent single then ryan thompson liner to left was surprise misplayed by mitchell and turned into rbi triple catcher hundley grounder to the drawn in branson failed to bring thompson in then the play of the game occured saberhagen was due up so reds pitching coach larry rothschild met with the infield to discuss the possibility of suicide squeeze they called it perfectly thompson was hung out to dry after pugh first pitch pitch out and the threat ended isn the national league great the reds picked up runs in the seventh to knot up the game after barry larkin ground out mitchell chris sabo and randy milligan got back to back to back singles the third scoring mitchell reggie sanders then plated sabo with long fly to center double by oliver might have scored runner dan wilson but third base coach dave bristol threw up the stop sign too late wilson himself was hung out to dry killing the reds rally rob dibble came on in the ninth and pitched shakily with two outs and runner on second bonilla came to the plate and all could think of was the sunday game in late august last year when bonilla three run dinger slapped loss on dibble and spelled the beginning of the end for cinci season bonilla ended up walking and hojo flied out to left to give the reds their first win in week and earned dibble his third save in as many opportunities the win went to steve foster who got in what must be an ego boosting two perfect innings work striking out three saberhagen got the loss though bit surprised he even pitched in the eighth ll take it though the reds are now still the worst team in baseball with the royals victory today the mets are the line new york mets ab bb lo coleman lf fernandez ss murray orselak ph rf bonilla rf johnson kent thompson cf hundley saberhagen totals hr johnson off pugh leading off fifth pitch thompson off pugh in fifth out rbi picked off coleman off pugh in fourth out on stranded at third rbi johnson thompson cincinnati reds ab bb lo kelly cf branson larkin ss mitchell lf dibble sabo milligan wilson pr sanders rf oliver pugh roberts ph foster espy ph hernandez pr lf totals oliver was stranded in the seventh after his double when wilson was run down oliver off saberhagen out runner on first stranded rbi milligan sanders and mitchell sac branson sf sanders and mitchell ibb larkin gdp larkin new york cincinnati pitching ip er bb new york saberhagen cincinnati pugh foster dibble pb wilson ejected murray torborg umps kellogg relliford runge demuth attendance coming up the reds travel to pittsburgh for three then continue on into chicago for three next game is tuesday at expected to pitch are belcher vs tomlin rstimets path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu po cwru edu dxf12 from dxf12 po cwru edu douglas fowler newsgroups rec sport baseball subject dimensional teams was re royals final run total date apr gmt organization case western reserve university cleveland oh usa lines message id qsslm qvj usenet ins cwru edu references qg93uinn7ai stimpy css itd umich edu reply to dxf12 po cwru edu douglas fowler nntp posting host slc12 ins cwru edu in previous article sweda css itd umich edu sean sweda says ve been saying this for quite some time but being absent from the net for while figured stick my neck out bit the royals will set the record for fewest runs scored by an al team since the inception of the dh rule any ideas what this is they will fall easily short of runs that for damn sure can believe these media fools picking them to win the division like our tom gage of the detroit news claiming herk robinson is some kind of genius for the trades aquisitions he made would you say the same thing about the dodgers in or true cone is probably as good as drysdale and they have no koufax but still these teams were winning with home run leaders who had very bad totals with lots of low scoring games etc and they didn use relievers whereas jeff montgomery is having super season for them that being said still picked them th or so but think superb pitching team can win if they have enough hitting there more of chance of that think than of team with tremendous hitting but no pitching at least to me wonder though which one do you people think would do better team with johnson koufax in his prime seaver carlton and young in no real order as the starters with sutter fingers and lyle in the bullpen but with puny offense assuming good defense like mazeroski maranville etc or team with poor pitching but with an offense of cobb carew ruth gehrig mays schmidt wagner and bench again you pick the order would postulate that the pitching one would be several games better by seasons end even the best hitters can succeed only of the time in their best years but great pitcher can throw lots of shutouts taking all the players in their prime they might throw shutouts in year and all the offense would have to do is get run across wonder if someone with stratomatic or something could plug such all time teams into regular season have it played and report the results would love to see that doug fowler dxf12 po cwru edu me age now mommys and daddys other ever wonder if after casey relatives have to give lots of hugs love missed the rd strike in the poem support cause heaven is just great he ran to first and made it big hug that lasts forever and ever newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet spool mu edu torn newshost uwo ca sscl uwo ca vince from vince sscl uwo ca subject re early bbddd returns organization social science computing laboratory date mon apr gmt message id apr18 sscl uwo ca references apr16 news cs brandeis edu sender news julian uwo ca usenet news system nntp posting host vaxi sscl uwo ca lines in article apr16 news cs brandeis edu st902415 pip cc brandeis edu adam levin writes just curious if anyone has started to standout early in the season in the bb ddd this year concerned fan of the bb ddd am hoping to produce the first update of the bb ddd this week please send info about the most significant longest most critical etc home run that you have seen yet this season vince newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc sol ctr columbia edu mizzou1 missouri edu c558172 from c558172 mizzou1 missouri edu subject re and america team is but why message id bb411f4f c558172 mizzou1 missouri edu sender nobody ctr columbia edu organization university of missouri references kingoz camelot date mon apr gmt posted from mizzou1 missouri edu nntp posting host sol ctr columbia edu lines in article kingoz camelot kingoz camelot bradley edu orin roth writes well officially it the braves at least up until they started winning it was are they still officially if so why and how did they receive this label unoffically but without doubt america team is the cubs why orin bradley really jester in disguise sorry but saw survey somewhere that showed that america favorite team is the damn yankees so much for the underdogs being loved obbaseball trivia cardinals have taken out of series from the yanks but have losing record against them spring training games not counted shannon newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net oz plymouth edu mullin from mullin oz plymouth edu mully subject montreal question message id apr19 oz plymouth edu reply to mullin oz plymouth edu mully organization plymouth state college plymouth date mon apr gmt lines what position does mike lansing play cannot seem to find it anywhere thanks keith mullins ooo ooo internet plymouth nh it takes big man to cry but mullin oz plymouth edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech usenet ufl edu usenet cis ufl edu caen msuinfo euler lbs msu edu vergolin from vergolin euler lbs msu edu david vergolini newsgroups rec sport baseball subject detroit tigers date apr gmt organization michigan state university lines message id qt1f3 o7o msuinfo cl msu edu nntp posting host euler lbs msu edu summary who can stop the roar of the tiger bats keywords detroit is the top offensive team in the league the roar at michigan and trumbull should be loader than ever this year with mike illitch at the head and ernie harwell back at the booth the tiger bats will bang this summer already they have scored runs in two games and with fielder tettleton and deer think they can win the division no pitching bull gully moore wells and krueger make up decent staff that will keep the team into many games then there is henneman to close it out watch out boston toronto and baltimore the motor city kittys are back newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc news service uci edu ucivax news claremont edu pomona claremont edu kkeach from kkeach pomona claremont edu subject three homer games and padres notes message id b3a6 a53ea3aa pomona claremont edu sender news news claremont edu the news system reply to kkeach pomona claremont edu organization pomona college date mon apr gmt lines to all those out there wondering about who holds the record for three homer games ina career the answer is johnny mize in his career with the cards and the yanks he hit three times am almost sure about this in case anyone is wondering the record for two homer games is held by babe ruth and is mize record may not last for much longer because of juan gonzalez he has at least three games with three and maybe know that he had at least two last year and one as rookie don have any record books at college for me to check on though please let me know okay if am wrong onto the padres is there anyone out there who follows them especial ly those with access to local news don here anything in los angeles and can get mcpaper consistently around here comment it looks as though san diego has gotten the better of the two deals that brought bell and plantier to the padres it has also forced the team to use darrell shermann of course plantier could get injured again or he could hit with the power of but with lower average bell always could finish with and hrs essentially jerald clark numbers leadoff comment craig shipley get on base of the time if lucky at leadoff hell of the usual starters use gwynn he got steals already is shipley starting because of an injury to stillwell though haven seen stillwell name in any box scores anyway unless you are going to use shermann at leadoff then use gwynn he at lesat gets on base and this year is stealing bases sheffield comment though the season is early and stats mean nothing witness phillips batting currently but does sheffield have an injury or anythingelse wrong with him just don hear anything andy benes is he pitching like he did in the second half of or is this flash of promise that he throws out evrey now and then has anyone seen him pitch the two good games score for today sunday april padres st louis padres sweep the cardinals as gwynn goes for with homer sheffield and tueful also homer in winning cause thanks for listening reading any comments kelly keach kkeach pomona claremont edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net spool mu edu nigel msen com yale edu yale not for mail from shapiro david yale edu david shapiro newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re and america team is but why date apr organization what me organized lines distribution na message id qt2k1innblt minerva cis yale edu references kingoz camelot c5p3yr gh2 news cso uiuc edu c5p6xq gui me utoronto ca nntp posting host minerva cis yale edu in reply to steinman me utoronto ca message of sun apr gmt in article c5p6xq gui me utoronto ca steinman me utoronto ca david steinman writes cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes the defenition of the underdog is team that has no talent and comes out of nowhere to contend the mets and orioles are prime examples not the cubs sorry but it is virtually impossible to win division with no talent over games well with players certainly however it is quite possible to win it all with no managerial talent cf blue jays david david shapiro people can call it monkey but felt like shapiro david yale edu had piano on my back all winter long shapiro minerva cis yale edu the piano is off my back maybe trombone will be next stan belinda newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net oz plymouth edu mullin from mullin oz plymouth edu mully subject request for al stats message id apr19 oz plymouth edu reply to mullin oz plymouth edu mully organization plymouth state college plymouth date mon apr gmt lines anyone have the al individual stats or where can find them newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu ukma netnews louisville edu ulkyvx louisville edu pjtier01 from pjtier01 ulkyvx louisville edu subject re montreal question sender news netnews louisville edu netnews message id apr18 ulkyvx louisville edu date mon apr gmt lines references apr19 oz plymouth edu nntp posting host ulkyvx louisville edu organization university of louisville in article apr19 oz plymouth edu mullin oz plymouth edu mully writes what position does mike lansing play cannot seem to find it anywhere thanks currently he all over he played nd when deshields was out he was shifted to third when delino came back and today he played ss for cold wil cordero his natural positions seem to be in the middle infield but they will seemingly find spot for himm somewhere as long as his bat is hot tierney newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu usenet ucs indiana edu news from dwarner journalism indiana edu david subject re detroit tigers message id c5pmm2 k0d usenet ucs indiana edu sender news usenet ucs indiana edu usenet news system nntp posting host mozzarella journalism indiana edu reply to dwarner journalism indiana edu organization indiana university references qt1f3 o7o msuinfo cl msu edu date mon apr gmt lines david vergolini writes the roar at michigan and trumbull should be loader than ever this year with mike illitch at the head and ernie harwell back at the booth the tiger bats will bang this summer already they have scored runs in two games and with fielder tettleton and deer think they can win the division no pitching bull gully moore wells and krueger make up decent staff that will keep the team into many games yeah if the tigers can keep scoring runs game if reading all this woofing correctly one midseason slump is going to pull this team out of contention like yogi says ll believe when believe it david dwarner journalism indiana edu blue riddle productions it on the rap is an art ep is coming out on tape this time for real mail me for the path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech enterpoop mit edu senator bedfellow mit edu athena mit edu cmk from cmk athena mit edu charles kozierok newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re detroit tigers date apr gmt organization massachusetts institute of technology lines message id qt59oinn6t1 senator bedfellow mit edu references qt1f3 o7o msuinfo cl msu edu nntp posting host marinara mit edu keywords detroit is the top offensive team in the league in article qt1f3 o7o msuinfo cl msu edu vergolin euler lbs msu edu david vergolini writes the roar at michigan and trumbull should be loader than ever this year with mike illitch at the head and ernie harwell back at the booth the tiger bats will bang this summer already they have scored runs in two games and with fielder tettleton and deer think they can win the division no pitching bull gully moore wells and krueger make up decent staff that will keep the team into many games then there is henneman to close it out watch out boston toronto and baltimore the motor city kittys are back nice woofing or should say meowing and yes the tiggers are fun exciting team that would pay to see but last year they went this year their offense is essentially the same and their pitching is at best essentially the same so why do you think they will suddenly improve to win the or so games which will be required to win the east what has changed that don see remember win is worth as much in the standings as win charles newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net spool mu edu torn newshub ccs yorku ca newshub ariel yorku ca cs902043 from cs902043 ariel yorku ca shawn luddington subject re jack morris message id apr19 newshub ariel yorku ca sender news newshub ariel yorku ca usenet news system organization york university toronto canada references mindlink bc ca apr18 mnemosyne cs du edu apr18 cs cornell edu date mon apr gmt lines in article apr18 cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes in article apr18 mnemosyne cs du edu gspira nyx cs du edu greg spira writes howard wong mindlink bc ca howard wong writes has jack lost bit of his edge what is the worst start jack morris has had uh jack lost his edge about years ago and has had only one above average year in the last again goes to prove that it is better to be good than lucky you can count on good tomorrow lucky seems to be prone to bad starts and bad finish last year yes am enjoying every last run he gives up who was it who said morris was better signing than viola cheers valentine hey valentine don see boston with any world series rings on their fingers damn morris now has three and probably the hall of fame in his future therefore would have to say toronto easily made the best signing and don tell me boston will win this year they won even be in the top in the division more like th shawn newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech news ans net cmcl2 panix spira from spira panix com greg spira subject re and america team is but why message id c5phh2 ru panix com organization panix public access internet unix nyc references kingoz camelot c5p3yr gh2 news cso uiuc edu date mon apr gmt lines in article c5p3yr gh2 news cso uiuc edu cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes the defenition of the underdog is team that has no talent and comes out of nowhere to contend the mets and orioles are prime examples uh don think you can call team with tom seaver jerry koosman and nolan ryan on the pitching staff team that has no talent they did come out of nowhere but some of the improvement was forseeable greg newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech news ans net cmcl2 panix spira from spira panix com greg sarcasm is way of life spira subject re and america team is but why message id c5phqv panix com sender spira panix com greg spira organization boo references kingoz camelot c5p3yr gh2 news cso uiuc edu c5p6xq gui me utoronto ca qsk9d dck usenet ins cwru edu date mon apr gmt lines in qsk9d dck usenet ins cwru edu jdl6 po cwru edu justin lowe writes in previous article steinman me utoronto ca david steinman says cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes the defenition of the underdog is team that has no talent and comes out of nowhere to contend the mets and orioles are prime examples not the cubs sorry but it is virtually impossible to win division with no talent over games would amend your definition to underdog team expected to lose but which wins thanks to underestimated talent dave ok the mets and are good examples but what about the reds do you really think that anyone expected them to sweep the know people who didn even think they win game let alone win the series these people were very silly any team that gets to the world series can win the world series and anybody who ever expects sweep is crazy if you put the best team in baseball in the series against the worst team in baseball the worst team would win at least game most of the time and very well could win the series though the odds would certainly be against them greg path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu andrew cmu edu mr47 from mamatha devineni ratnam mr47 andrew cmu edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject zane rescue us from simmons date sun apr organization post office carnegie mellon pittsburgh pa lines message id sfovx7o00wb4mium0d andrew cmu edu nntp posting host andrew cmu edu so far simmons looks like total idiot zane smith should learn how to switchpitch and return from the dl would rather have zane smith pitch right handed than have moeller pitch at all am sure simmons was ready to say told you so after otto had an impressive win last week now otto latest debacle has restored simmon reputation now he looks like he is back in his form when he had the al highest era among starters four our sake not ted sake hope he pitches with era for the rest of the season yeah right tomlin and merced are bit disappointing they are still doing decently but considering the considerable amount of talent and maturity they have shown their first seasons they seem to have actually gotten little bit worse tomlin was almost unhittable his rookie year against lefty batters merced had very good oba his rookie year he showed lot of concentration at the plate in his rookie year walk well he seems to be on the losing end tonight but still think that walk desrved his contract leyland should accept part of the blame for the lavalliere situation can understand his and management fear of losing tom prince through waivers even if they do what the use he is aright hander like slaught not very smart platoon also am blaming leyland in this case since he is hcurrently convinced that lavalliere is through while giving him way too much time last year in the regular season and the playoffs slaught should have played in all games he has good average against right handed pitching didn leyland and simmons forsee this last year and attempt to trade lavalliere last year itself any fool could tell them lavalliere wasn very fit last year dennis moeller is scary candeleria well he is not going to have such high era at the end of the season maybe it will be in range but million plus come on other than the customary home run giving stage patterson goes through for few weeks patterson has served the pirates very well each year so far he seems to have pitched well for the rangers think the pirates should have spent the money on patterson in stead the rookie batters well young has surprised me bit with his instant impact other than that their excellent performance hasn been too much of surprise think we should thank doughty for that rookie pitchers worse than expected especially cooke slaught how come he wasn given contract extension last year now his value has increased immensely lonnie smith well eric davis was signed for comparable amount let see eric can hit better he can run better he can field better now why didnt the pirates go after eric davis an injured davis is better than healthy lonnie smith even if lonnnie smith gets some big hits this year he won be an asset he has looked terrible on the bases and in the field management big big zero sauer has yet to make forceful agreement in favor of revenue sharing he seems more concerned about pleasing that idiot danforth by preparing the team for move to tampa bay alex cole fiasco the pirates infield and cf positions look good the rf and lf would have looked good if we could have gotten cole to replace two of the four outfielders eric davis van slyke and cole would have made very respectable outfield even without eric davis thye pirates would have respectable outfield with cole svan slyke and merced think he should hit left handed against lefts in stead of switch hitting simmons did have options for the outfield ironically the biggest accomplishment of simmon tenure was getting alex cole really cheap too bad compensatory draft picks for bonds forget it the pirates can rant and rave they will not get those picks as of now the issue is still being appealed now if this doesnt convince anyone that simmons and sauer are idiots nothing else will on final note tim wakefield won be as awful as he was in his last starts but don count on him pitching like last year for the rest of the season also if the pirates are in contention towards rthe end of the season they will miss redus clutch hitting and his speed he has peaked in the second half of the last seasons pravin ratnam path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech prism gt0523e from gt0523e prism gatech edu michael andre mule newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re torre the worst manager message id hydra gatech edu date apr gmt references hydra gatech edu distribution usa organization georgia institute of technology lines in article hydra gatech edu gt7469a prism gatech edu brian landmann writes later in the ninth inning with the bases loaded and two outs he puts lankford hitter with power in as pinch runner and uses luis alicea hitter with no power as pinch hitter what the helll is he thinking if memory serves me well alicea hit it and damn near tied the game torre obviously knows his players better than you do see all at the ballyard go braves chop chop michael mule michael andre mule georgia institute of technology atlanta georgia uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism gt0523e internet gt0523e prism gatech edu newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc sdd hp com cs utexas edu utnut torn pulp cs laurentian ca maynard from maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard subject re jack morris message id apr19 ramsey cs laurentian ca organization dept of computer science laurentian university sudbury on references mindlink bc ca apr18 mnemosyne cs du edu apr18 cs cornell edu apr19 newshub ariel yorku ca date mon apr gmt lines in apr19 newshub ariel yorku ca cs902043 ariel yorku ca shawn luddington writes hey valentine don see boston with any world series rings on their fingers damn morris now has three and probably the hall of fame in his future therefore would have to say toronto easily made the best signing and don tell me boston will win this year they won even be in the top in the division more like th yeah valentine how many rings does clemens have nothin like good old fashioned canadian logic btw the only good thing can say about the jay rotation this year is that it could have been worse stewart might have stayed healthy cordially as always maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca so many morons rm and so little time path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech prism gt0523e from gt0523e prism gatech edu michael andre mule newsgroups rec sport baseball subject militello update message id hydra gatech edu date apr gmt distribution usa organization georgia institute of technology lines hey all you yankee fans who ve been knocking my prediction of baltimore you flooded my mailbox with cries of militello good militello good where is he noticed he got skipped over after that oh so strong first outing he not by any chance in columbus now is he please don tell me you re relying on this guy to be the fourth not the fifth but the fourth starter on this brittle pitching staff as for the it still early see all at the ballyard go braves chop chop michael mule michael andre mule georgia institute of technology atlanta georgia uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism gt0523e internet gt0523e prism gatech edu newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu usenet ucs indiana edu news from dwarner journalism indiana edu david subject re the mets are rapists message id c5pois n28 usenet ucs indiana edu sender news usenet ucs indiana edu usenet news system nntp posting host mozzarella journalism indiana edu reply to dwarner journalism indiana edu organization indiana university references apr17 virginia edu date mon apr gmt lines todd karlin writes do not read klapisch news columns regularly but do know that he has been accused before as being an instigator that enjoys hopefully for only professional reasons to drumb up news story even if there isn one there now as far as the confrontation with bobby bonilla few days ago almost totally blame bonilla no matter what member of the press does and no matter how much of putrid individual he might be that does not give ballplayer the right to threaten journalist bonilla wasn threatening anyone he just wanted to give him the dollar tour david dwarner journalism indiana edu blue riddle productions it on the rap is an art ep is coming out on tape this time for real mail me for the path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech enterpoop mit edu senator bedfellow mit edu athena mit edu cmk from cmk athena mit edu charles kozierok newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re jack morris date apr gmt organization massachusetts institute of technology lines message id qt6ooinn7gd senator bedfellow mit edu references apr18 mnemosyne cs du edu apr18 cs cornell edu apr19 newshub ariel yorku ca nntp posting host marinara mit edu in article apr19 newshub ariel yorku ca cs902043 ariel yorku ca shawn luddington writes in article apr18 cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes in article apr18 mnemosyne cs du edu gspira nyx cs du edu greg spira writes howard wong mindlink bc ca howard wong writes has jack lost bit of his edge what is the worst start jack morris has had uh jack lost his edge about years ago and has had only one above average year in the last again goes to prove that it is better to be good than lucky you can count on good tomorrow lucky seems to be prone to bad starts and bad finish last year yes am enjoying every last run he gives up who was it who said morris was better signing than viola hey valentine don see boston with any world series rings on their fingers oooooo cheap shot damn morris now has three and probably the hall of fame in his future who cares he had two of them before he came to toronto and if the jays had signed viola instead of morris it would have been frank who won and got the ring and he would be on his way to this year too therefore would have to say toronto easily made the best signing your logic is curious and spurious there is no reason to believe that viola wouldn have won as many games had he signed with toronto when you compare their stupid records be sure to compare their team offensive averages too now looking at anything like the morris viola sweepstakes year later is basically hindsight but there were plenty of reasons why it should have been apparent that viola was the better pitcher based on previous recent years and also based on age frank is almost years younger how many knew that people got caught up in the world series and then on morris wins last year wins are the stupidest most misleading statistic in baseball far worse than rbi or that he won just means that the jays got him lot of runs the only really valid retort to valentine is weren the red sox trying to get morris too oh sure they said viola was their first choice afterwards but what should we have expected they would say and don tell me boston will win this year they won even be in the top in the division more like th if this is true it won be for lack of contribution by viola so who cares charles newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net spool mu edu torn newshub ccs yorku ca newshub ariel yorku ca cs902043 from cs902043 ariel yorku ca shawn luddington subject re montreal question message id apr19 newshub ariel yorku ca sender news newshub ariel yorku ca usenet news system organization york university toronto canada references apr19 oz plymouth edu date mon apr gmt lines in article apr19 oz plymouth edu mullin oz plymouth edu mully writes what position does mike lansing play cannot seem to find it anywhere thanks keith mullins ooo ooo internet plymouth nh it takes big man to cry but mullin oz plymouth edu he played nd and rd also heard he can play short too shawn path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu andrew cmu edu mr47 from mamatha devineni ratnam mr47 andrew cmu edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re zane rescue us from simmons date sun apr organization post office carnegie mellon pittsburgh pa lines message id fovseo00wb48iunqv andrew cmu edu nntp posting host po4 andrew cmu edu in my last message wrote management big big zero sauer has yet to make forceful agreement in favor of revenue sharing meant argument instead of agreement also think should add coouple of ted positive achievements smiley trade was good for the pirates but think ted could have gotten someone better than neagle cummings seems to be pretty good the cole trade was excellent but simmons has botched it up now this year draft seems to have gone well for the pirates but then they lost high picks in the bonds fiasco oh well should give up trying to prove that simmons is not total idiot newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net wupost crcnis1 unl edu moe ksu ksu edu hobbes physics uiowa edu news iastate edu iastate edu ajpat from ajpat iastate edu amy patterson subject twins games message id apr18 iastate edu sender news news iastate edu usenet news system reply to ajpat iastate edu amy patterson organization iowa state university date mon apr gmt lines does anyone know if the twins games are broadcast in good ole ames iowa thanks all newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet spool mu edu nigel msen com yale edu news yale edu berkeley kstar node net yale edu user from austin jacobs subject bob knepper was damn right message id apr19 news yale edu followup to rec sport baseball sender news news yale edu usenet news system nntp posting host berkeley kstar node net yale edu organization university of yaleta date mon apr gmt lines don you guys think so mean mon what the heck are women doing even thinking of getting into baseball they cause so many problems just look at lisa olson remember that feisty reporter that entered the new england patriots locker room she started crying like little girl just don think women belong in man sport before you smart guys flame me for this know the given example was about football who cares it still applies to other male sports how can we have women umpires jeez look at pam postema just because she woman everybody on the face of the earth thinks it great that she getting an opportunity to ump if you even watched the games and had an iq greater than that of roast beef you see that she is not nearly as good as most aaa umpires besides she is probably more worried about cracking fingernail with foul tip off of wade boggs bat or jose oquendo bat either way there are too many complications austin jacobs bob knepper fan club member newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net spool mu edu torn newshub ccs yorku ca newshub ariel yorku ca cs902060 from cs902060 ariel yorku ca geoffrey dias subject attention anyone in syracuse ny or richmond va message id apr19 newshub ariel yorku ca sender news newshub ariel yorku ca usenet news system organization york university toronto canada date mon apr gmt lines there are two conflicting reports about pitcher that is either in the jays farm system or the braves his name is bill taylor he was picked up by the jays but had to be offered back to the braves before they were able to send him to the syracuse chiefs one report says that the braves took him back and assigned him to richmond the other says that he is on the chiefs roster which one is right newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet elroy jpl nasa gov swrinde emory sol ctr columbia edu destroyer cs ubc ca alberta kakwa ucs ualberta ca acs ucalgary ca honte uleth ca news from savoy hg uleth ca jim savoy subject re what with all these scores message id apr19 honte uleth ca sender news honte uleth ca news system reply to savoy hg uleth ca organization university of lethbridge references apr17 news yale edu qp1m9innfjg senator bedfellow mit edu date mon apr gmt lines sean garrison writes alright have one thing to say don know if it just me but thought this newsgroup is place for discussion why must people constantly post these little messages about how certain team is winning in certain inning mean come on how many people are so dependent on this newsgroup that they have to find out the scores mid game here cmk athena mit edu charles kozierok writes amen hear ya brother take look at the timestamps on some of the posts you read sometime the propagation delays are significant often hours or even days and even people who have access to machines which are close to the poster on the network let try weeks it is april th today and just finished reading posts regarding the cleveland indians boating tragedy needless to say don want to read partial linescores of games played weeks ago as charles mentioned excluded the quote join mailing list if you want to woof consider entering th inning scores as woofing thank you now to plug on and read the rest of the posts about spring training jim savoy university of lethbridge savoy hg uleth ca sigless and bible black newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu magnus acs ohio state edu csn boulder news from davewood bruno cs colorado edu david rex wood subject re bob knepper was damn right message id apr19 colorado edu sender news colorado edu the daily planet nntp posting host bruno cs colorado edu organization university of colorado boulder references apr19 news yale edu date mon apr gmt lines in article apr19 news yale edu austin jacobs writes don you guys think so mean mon what the heck are women doing even thinking of getting into baseball they cause so many problems just look at lisa olson remember that feisty reporter that entered the new england patriots locker room she started crying like little girl just don think women belong in man sport before you smart guys flame me for this know the given example was about football who cares it still applies to other male sports how can we have women umpires jeez look at pam postema just because she woman everybody on the face of the earth thinks it great that she getting an opportunity to ump if you even watched the games and had an iq greater than that of roast beef you see that she is not nearly as good as most aaa umpires besides she is probably more worried about cracking fingernail with foul tip off of wade boggs bat or jose oquendo bat either way there are too many complications austin jacobs bob knepper fan club member someone tell me there hidden here somewhere david rex wood davewood cs colorado edu university of colorado at boulder path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net newshost williams edu newshost williams edu not for mail from jll williams edu teflon newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re zane rescue us from simmons date apr organization williams college williamstown ma lines message id qt9t7innf6q hancock williams edu references sfovx7o00wb4mium0d andrew cmu edu nntp posting host hancock cc williams edu in article sfovx7o00wb4mium0d andrew cmu edu mamatha devineni ratnam mr47 andrew cmu edu writes so far simmons looks like total idiot leyland should accept part of the blame for the lavalliere situation can understand his and management fear of losing tom prince through waivers even if they do what the use he is aright hander like slaught not very smart platoon also am blaming leyland in this case since he is hcurrently convinced that lavalliere is through while giving him way too much time last year in the regular season and the playoffs slaught should have played in all games he has good average against right handed pitching didn leyland and simmons forsee this last year and attempt to trade lavalliere last year itself any fool could tell them lavalliere wasn very fit last year sorry but this is the biggest load of bunk ve seen in while the pirates have been trying to trade lavalliere for some time now nobody was even vaguely interested several other teams had made it known that they would grab prince who was out of options lavalliere release had nothing to do with him being through he was released because in the event of an injury to slaught lavalliere is no longer capable they believe of being the everyday catcher since slaught is as good against righties as he is against lefties the offense should actually improve with this move toby path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net newshost williams edu newshost williams edu not for mail from jll williams edu teflon newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re militello update date apr organization williams college williamstown ma lines distribution usa message id qta4vinnfc2 hancock williams edu references hydra gatech edu nntp posting host hancock cc williams edu in article hydra gatech edu gt0523e prism gatech edu michael andre mule writes hey all you yankee fans who ve been knocking my prediction of baltimore you flooded my mailbox with cries of militello good militello good where is he noticed he got skipped over after that oh so strong first outing about as good as mussina better than sutcliffe and mcdonald he not by any chance in columbus now is he he in the bullpen steinbrenner is in charge after all please don tell me you re relying on this guy to be the fourth not the fifth but the fourth starter on this brittle pitching staff he got the talent to be the th starter now and evetually the ace he was higher ranked and generally better prospect than arthur rhodes who happens to be well hey the oriole th starter as for the it still early as for militello it still early toby elliott path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net bogus sura net jhunix hcf jhu edu jhuvms hcf jhu edu doctor8 from heatonn yankee org neal heaton newsgroups rec sport baseball subject sam are you there date apr est organization the johns hopkins university hcf lines sender doctor8 jhuvms hcf jhu edu jason abner miller distribution na message id apr199300352131 jhuvms hcf jhu edu nntp posting host jhuvms hcf jhu edu news software vax vms vnews to mr millitello listen sammy can you explain why buck pitched you in relief yesterday figure no one would know this better than you yourself jason miller some doctor guy tell bam bam he should ve made good on his thread to retire newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net spool mu edu nigel msen com yale edu news yale edu berkeley kstar node net yale edu user from sean garrison subject re bonilla message id apr19 news yale edu followup to rec sport baseball sender news news yale edu usenet news system nntp posting host berkeley kstar node net yale edu organization yale univeristy references apr16 ra msstate edu c5lilh gtk usenet ucs indiana edu apr17 organpipe uug arizona edu date mon apr gmt lines in article apr17 organpipe uug arizona edu krueger helium gas uug arizona edu theodore krueger wrote isn it funny that white person calls comeone nigger and gets banned for year but black person calls someone faggot and there is no consequence ted ted you re missing vital point as roger lustig pointed out in previous response the reason why schott was banned from baseball was because she had been known to call and think in racially biased manner on constant basis such thoughts affected her hiring practices bonilla on the other hand was found to have mentioned this one word single time if he had been known to go around criticizing homosexuals it would be different story furthermore he is merely an athlete he doesn have to hire anyone as schott had to do dave pallone the former nl umpire who is an admitted homosexual has decided to assist in protest before mets game at shea he like you thinks that bonilla should be suspended from baseball pallone is hoping for year suspension in my opinion that downright ludicrous as howie rose on wfan said if you start suspending athletes who have mentioned derogatory word even single time under whatever conditions then you probably have enough people remaining to play three on three game now honestly if you truly analyze the differences between the two cases that you bring up in your article would think that you reconsider your thoughts sean behind the bag vin scully newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu emory sol ctr columbia edu news columbia edu cunixf cc columbia edu mike from mike cunixf cc columbia edu michael chen subject re jack morris message id apr19 news columbia edu sender usenet news columbia edu the network news nntp posting host cunixf cc columbia edu reply to mike cunixf cc columbia edu michael chen organization columbia university references apr18 mnemosyne cs du edu apr18 cs cornell edu apr19 newshub ariel yorku ca date mon apr gmt lines in article apr19 newshub ariel yorku ca cs902043 ariel yorku ca shawn luddington writes in article apr18 cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes in article apr18 mnemosyne cs du edu gspira nyx cs du edu greg spira writes howard wong mindlink bc ca howard wong writes has jack lost bit of his edge what is the worst start jack morris has had uh jack lost his edge about years ago and has had only one above average year in the last again goes to prove that it is better to be good than lucky you can count on good tomorrow lucky seems to be prone to bad starts and bad finish last year yes am enjoying every last run he gives up who was it who said morris was better signing than viola cheers valentine hey valentine don see boston with any world series rings on their fingers damn morris now has three and probably the hall of fame in his future therefore would have to say toronto easily made the best signing and don tell me boston will win this year they won even be in the top in the division more like th shawn gee never knew valentine made comment about how viola signing with boston was gonna bring world series title to boston don think valentine ever said boston will win this year boy talk about sensitive insecure toronto fans in any case think viola would have made better signing why viola is younger and is left handed how many left handed starters does toronto have mike mike columbia edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net spool mu edu news nd edu irishvma rvesterm organization university of notre dame office of univ computing date sun apr est from rvesterm vma cc nd edu message id rvesterm vma cc nd edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re jewish baseball players references apr93 lafibm lafayette edu apr16 asd com lines in article apr16 asd com scott asd com scott barman says wasn ron bloomberg the former yankee who got the first base hit by designated hitter jewish have no idea nor do care however like to point out that blomberg got the first plate appearance by designated hitter and the first walk by designated hitter am not sure but do not think that he also got the first hit by designated hitter bob vesterman path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net spool mu edu news nd edu irishvma rvesterm organization university of notre dame office of univ computing date sun apr est from rvesterm vma cc nd edu message id rvesterm vma cc nd edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re jewish baseball players references apr93 lafibm lafayette edu qkkodinn5f5 jhunix hcf jhu edu c5l9vc r6 world std com lines in article c5l9vc r6 world std com eastgate world std com mark bernstein says which reminds me do they still serve kosher hot dogs at the new comiskey yup with onions of all things bob vesterman path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net spool mu edu news nd edu irishvma rvesterm organization university of notre dame office of univ computing date sun apr est from rvesterm vma cc nd edu message id rvesterm vma cc nd edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re juggling dodgers references mssc5mx2v c44 netcom com lines in article mssc5mx2v c44 netcom com mss netcom com mark singer says lasorda juggled his lineup against the pirates friday night and from the results one might conclude that he will stick with the changes for while butler reclaimed leadoff spot probably for the whole season davis wants to get his speed into play for last night piazza the kid is doing everything well very well strawberry the primadonna insists on batting cleanup how do you know this did lasorda say before the game here the lineup using batting strawman fourth because the primadonna insists on batting cleanup if this is true note that don think it is lasorda should be fired for at least two reasons publicly humiliating his players knuckling under to his players wishes however think that the more likely explanation is that lasorda wanted strawberry to bat fourth and that you hate strawberry bob vesterman path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net spool mu edu news nd edu irishvma rvesterm organization university of notre dame office of univ computing date sun apr est from rvesterm vma cc nd edu message id rvesterm vma cc nd edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re let talk phillies references apr15 ns1 cc lehigh edu apr16 adobe com apr17 mgweed mgwhiz att com lines in article apr17 mgweed mgwhiz att com prg mgweed mgwhiz att com phil gunsul says try to edit this newsgroup and feed it to one of the local elementary schools they have group of students that just love baseball and are learning to use computers but telling you it gotten to the point that don even edit the files anymore just read them and throw out the trash and thanks to all you people that think it wonderful to include swear word or two in your signature files that really nice have to read the whole article and then toss it out because of the sig duh why not just chop out the sig bob vesterman ps hey kids take all those pictures of dead presidents out of your parents wallets and mail them to bob vesterman dept of mathematics university of notre dame notre dame indiana path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net spool mu edu news nd edu irishvma rvesterm organization university of notre dame office of univ computing date sun apr est from rvesterm vma cc nd edu message id rvesterm vma cc nd edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re mlb nba references apr17 news yale edu lines in article apr17 news yale edu sean garrison says think that players salaries are getting way out of hand to the point that they re on pace to become severely detrimental to baseball future so you want to decrease players salaries so you want to increase owners salaries the two are equivalent bob vesterman path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net spool mu edu news nd edu irishvma rvesterm organization university of notre dame office of univ computing date sun apr est from rvesterm vma cc nd edu message id rvesterm vma cc nd edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re usa mcweekly stats references franjion spot colorado edu lines in article franjion spot colorado edu franjion spot colorado edu john franjione says also have the impression from reading this group and bill james that elias is bunch of money grubbing jerks whose mission is to charge as much as they can for baseball statistical info and bill james is not yeah sure do you own the bill james players rating book bob vesterman path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net spool mu edu news nd edu irishvma rvesterm organization university of notre dame office of univ computing date sun apr est from rvesterm vma cc nd edu message id rvesterm vma cc nd edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re bosox win again the team record is references jxu black clarku edu apr18 ncar ucar edu lines in article apr18 ncar ucar edu amj rsf atd ucar edu anthony michael jivoin says with the hawk the red sox definitely have chance for the east this year he brings class work ethic and leadership to the park each day too bad he doesn bring the ability to hit pitch field or run bob vesterman newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net bogus sura net darwin sura net news udel edu bach udel edu philly from philly bach udel edu robert hite subject let talk phillies message id c5pu9k d5m news udel edu sender usenet news udel edu nntp posting host bach udel edu organization university of delaware date mon apr gmt lines the phillies salvaged their weekend series against the chicago cubs by beating them in wild one at wrigley field sunday afternoon it was the phils only win in the three game series and was the first time the phillies have lost series in the young season the phils jumped to lead in the game thanks to john kruk run homers and two wes chamberlain homers however danny jackson and the phillies middle relief was unable to hold the lead mitch williams entered the game with the phillies leading however candy maldonado hit ninth inning homerun to tie it in the th dave hollins hit three run shot his first of the year to push the phils ahead to stay however in shaky bottom of the th the cubs scored runs and had the tying runner on base when the cubs pinch hit randy myers for bob scanlan they were out of position players and myers bunted into double play to end the game the phils bring their league leading record back to action tuesday wednesday and thursday against the padres newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net agate headwall stanford edu nntp stanford edu bloch stanford edu cmeyer from cmeyer bloch stanford edu craig meyer subject re jack morris message id apr19 leland stanford edu sender news leland stanford edu mr news organization dso stanford university newsreader tin version pl9 references apr19 news columbia edu date mon apr gmt lines michael chen mike cunixf cc columbia edu wrote in any case think viola would have made better signing why viola is younger and is left handed how many left handed starters does toronto have well agree that viola is better signing however why does everyone say that you want lefthanded starters understand lefthanded spot relievers even though they usually face more righthanded batters than lefthanded batters just don understand why people insist on lefthanded starters unless there is park effect yankee stadium most batters in mlb are righthanded so righthanded starters will have the platoon advantage more often than lefthanded starters guess one argument for lefty starters is that certain teams may be more vulnerable to lhp than rhp however this is probably only factor in the postseason because teams seldom juggle their starters for this reason during the regular season think you just want the best starters you can get regardless of whether they are lefties or righties lefthanded starters tend to have higher era than righthanded starters precisely because managers go out of their way to start inferior lefties or perhaps because of the platoon advantage am missing something here craig newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net wupost gumby destroyer cs ubc ca uw beaver cornell tedward from tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer subject re jack morris message id apr19 cs cornell edu organization cornell univ cs dept ithaca ny references apr18 mnemosyne cs du edu apr18 cs cornell edu apr19 newshub ariel yorku ca date mon apr gmt lines in article apr19 newshub ariel yorku ca cs902043 ariel yorku ca shawn luddington writes hey valentine don see boston with any world series rings on their fingers yah so damn morris now has three and probably the hall of fame in his future he certainly didn earn his last one how many games did he blow in the world series all of the ones he started therefore would have to say toronto easily made the best signing oh yes definitely therefore morris is better than clemens don give me that shit if boston had alomar olerud henke and ward while toronto had rivera jack clark jeff reardon things would have looked little different last fall give credit where credit is due this lavishing of praise on morris makes me sick and don tell me boston will win this year they won even be in the top in the division more like th willing to bet they don finish sixth also willing to bet they don finish first and if you give me odds willing to bet that they finish ahead of the blue jays valentine newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov ames saimiri primate wisc edu caen batcomputer cornell tedward from tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer subject re jack morris message id apr19 cs cornell edu organization cornell univ cs dept ithaca ny references apr18 cs cornell edu apr19 newshub ariel yorku ca qt6ooinn7gd senator bedfellow mit edu date mon apr gmt lines in article qt6ooinn7gd senator bedfellow mit edu cmk athena mit edu charles kozierok writes the only really valid retort to valentine is weren the red sox trying to get morris too oh sure they said viola was their first choice afterwards but what should we have expected they would say lou wanted morris all along the idiot giving the man million to play with is like giving five year old loaded uzi with the safety off the only question is how many shots he will get off before somebody is wise enough to take it away and don tell me boston will win this year they won even be in the top in the division more like th if this is true it won be for lack of contribution by viola so who cares don see why people expect boston to finish sixth the bottom four teams last year were essentially tied boston in seventh place had wins the yankees and indians tied for fourth place had wins now should think it is obvious that the red sox improved more than the indians or tigers basically the red sox are stronger this year at dh ss lf and rf they have healthier starting pitchers so far at least and better relievers see no reason why they shouldn win games meanwhile the indians are in shambles and the tigers still have no pitching they will win some blowouts but they will lose an awful lot of games too maybe the sox will play poorly win games and finish fifth but think third or fourth place is more likely cheers valentine newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet caen batcomputer cornell tedward from tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer subject re militello update message id apr19 cs cornell edu organization cornell univ cs dept ithaca ny references hydra gatech edu distribution usa date mon apr gmt lines in article hydra gatech edu gt0523e prism gatech edu michael andre mule writes hey all you yankee fans who ve been knocking my prediction of baltimore um how many games have the orioles won you flooded my mailbox with cries of militello good militello good he is or will be where is he noticed he got skipped over after that oh so strong first outing he not by any chance in columbus now is he please don tell me you re relying on this guy to be the fourth not the fifth but the fourth starter on this brittle pitching staff no currently there no room for him in the rotation key is having most impressive april abbott is pitching well perez is back wickman has pitched his way into the rotation and is holding his spot with an outstanding performance his last time out and kamieniecki isn doing too poorly himself if the yankees find themselves in need of starter militello will get another chance until then he ll have to wait in line valentine newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net agate headwall stanford edu nntp stanford edu dkeisen from dkeisen leland stanford edu dave eisen subject re bob knepper was damn right message id apr19 leland stanford edu sender news leland stanford edu mr news organization sequoia peripherals inc references apr19 news yale edu date mon apr gmt lines why did get sucked into this in article apr19 news yale edu austin jacobs writes don you guys think so mean mon what the heck are women doing even thinking of getting into baseball they cause so many problems just assuming you re serious guess you be surprised to hear that us guys don think so would guess that tiny fraction of of the folks reading your post agree with it kind of doubt that even you agree with it not going to go through your points one at time because after all not many of them have anything at all to do with baseball only replying to this because you brought up pam postema the aaa umpire who sued is suing baseball on the grounds of sex discrimination because she wasn promoted to the majors jeez look at pam postema just because she woman everybody on the face of the earth thinks it great that she getting an opportunity to ump if you even watched the games and had an iq greater than that of roast beef you see that she is not nearly as good as most aaa umpires ve never seen her ump game have no first hand experience with her ability as an umpire but have seen her on talk shows and her point seems to be that she can call balls and strikes as well as any of the umpires and she knows the rulebook better than most it seems to me that she is missing the point and if that how she sees the role of umpires in the game well wouldn promote her either the umpires primary role has nothing to do with calling baserunners safe or out hell joe lundy could do that their primary function is to maintain order in the game keep the game moving and keep the players from trying to kill each other umpires have to be extremely tough people that disqualifies most of us both men and women and if ms postema thinks that she deserves to be major league umpire because of her command of the rulebook then think that disqualifies her as well umpires need to command the game command of the rulebook is secondary dave eisen to succeed in the world it is not dkeisen leland stanford edu enough to be stupid you must also sequoia peripherals be well mannered voltaire home path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov ames network ucsd edu sdcc12 cs demers from demers cs ucsd edu david demers newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re montreal question message id sdcc12 ucsd edu date apr gmt references apr19 oz plymouth edu sender news sdcc12 ucsd edu organization cse dept uc san diego lines nntp posting host mbongo ucsd edu in article apr19 oz plymouth edu mullin oz plymouth edu mully writes what position does mike lansing play cannot seem to find it anywhere thanks he shortstop by training but he been at second mostly and third this year for the expos dave demers demers cs ucsd edu computer science engineering demers cs ucsd bitnet uc san diego ucsd cs demers la jolla ca or fax path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov ames network ucsd edu sdcc12 cs demers from demers cs ucsd edu david demers newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re let talk phillies message id sdcc12 ucsd edu date apr gmt references apr15 ns1 cc lehigh edu rvesterm vma cc nd edu sender news sdcc12 ucsd edu organization cse dept uc san diego lines nntp posting host mbongo ucsd edu in article rvesterm vma cc nd edu rvesterm vma cc nd edu writes in article apr17 mgweed mgwhiz att com prg mgweed mgwhiz att com phil gunsul says ps hey kids take all those pictures of dead presidents out of your parents wallets and mail them to bob vesterman and send him shift key too dave demers demers cs ucsd edu computer science engineering demers cs ucsd bitnet uc san diego ucsd cs demers la jolla ca or fax path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net agate dog ee lbl gov network ucsd edu cogsci king from king cogsci ucsd edu jonathan king newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re zane rescue us from simmons date apr gmt organization university of california san diego lines sender king cogsci ucsd edu distribution na message id qurta network ucsd edu references sfovx7o00wb4mium0d andrew cmu edu nntp posting host cogsci ucsd edu summary oh please it way too early to get upset mamatha devineni ratnam mr47 andrew cmu edu writes so far simmons looks like total idiot whatever you say think it just games into the season myself so going to wait bit before calling names am sure simmons was ready to say told you so after otto had an impressive win last week now otto latest debacle has restored simmons reputation now he looks like he is back in his form when he had the al highest era among starters four our sake not ted sake hope he pitches with era for the rest of the season yeah right expect that dave otto will be really bad pitcher and have no idea why simmons ever wanted him on the other hand expect him to release otto if he doesn turn things around pretty fast btw otto game score for that ip stinker was only which points out problem with the method since otto performance was infinitely bad and excruciatingly prolonged tomlin and merced are bit disappointing they are still doing decently but considering the considerable amount of talent and maturity they have shown their first seasons they seem to have actually gotten little bit worse think merced rookie year was bit flukey but aren you willing to give him some more at bats and tomlin few more starts before acting so gloomy walk well he seems to be on the losing end tonight but still think that walk desrved his contract no he didn walk is time bomb he has no stuff whatsoever and when the league finally realizes this it won be pretty at all the rookie batters well young has surprised me bit with his instant impact other than that their excellent performance hasn been too much of surprise think we should thank doughty for that don be so fast doughty is the guy who signed steve buechele which was move that threatened to bury kevin young in the minors meanwhile not sure whether doughty or simmons signed martin as six year free agent before the season rookie pitchers worse than expected especially cooke twice through the rotation and you ve given up yikes slaught how come he wasn given contract extension last year now his value has increased immensely but so has his age at least in baseball terms the useful half life of year old injury prone catcher can be much longer than year lonnie smith well eric davis was signed for comparable amount but he wanted to be dodger and felt he had something to prove after his disastrous don think there was any chance for the bucs to sign him let see eric can hit better he can run better he can field better now why didnt the pirates go after eric davis an injured davis is better than healthy lonnie smith he certainly wasn last year even if lonnnie smith gets some big hits this year he won be an asset he has looked terrible on the bases and in the field hey that the skates smith package deal anybody who acquires lonnie for his defense or base running particularly at this stage is real weirdo management big big zero sauer has yet to make forceful argument in favor of revenue sharing he seems more concerned about pleasing that idiot danforth by preparing the team for move to tampa bay if that the goal of the team ownership than don see why sauer gets zero for making his boss happy don know what he has or hasn said about revenue sharing so can comment there alex cole fiasco stuff deleted ironically the biggest accomplishment of simmons tenure was getting alex cole really cheap too bad that he gave him away in the expansion draft it annoying but since leyland seems to have been pushing for them to retain jeff king it was probably unavoidable meanwhile think bigger accomplishments of simmons tenure were getting some value for john smiley not trading real prospects for veterans down the stretch last year drafting well in letting the rookies show something in foley smith and candelaria were acquired to be replacement parts which means that even if fail it hasn done serious damage to the bucs future compensatory draft picks for bonds forget it the pirates can rant and rave they will not get those picks as of now the issue is still being appealed does this mean that the bucs lost the initial arbitration case never heard the outcome of this when will the final verdict be in on this now if this doesnt convince anyone that simmons and sauer are idiots nothing else will not sure who was the idiot in this case so don know who to blame it might have been doug danforth after all in fact seriously suspect it was doug danforth who has shown his willingness to call the shots at exactly those moments when the gun is pointed at his feet btw ve wondered whether my latest posts have been getting off site so if somebody known to impersonate cummings can see this would he drop me short note jking path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc usc not for mail from pcaster mizar usc edu dodger newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re dodger question date apr organization university of southern california los angeles ca lines sender nntp mizar usc edu distribution usa message id qv76oinnmvm mizar usc edu references c5qoie td odin corp sgi com mssc5qskm zh netcom com nntp posting host mizar usc edu the dodgers have been shopping harris to other teams in their quest for more left handed pitching so far no takers personally think harris is defensive liability and he has also led the team in past years for hitting into double plays or at least been among the leaders sharperson showed last year that if given chance to play every day he can get the job done if sharpy played just one base every day say third he also improve defensively wallach has helped tremendously on defense as has reed the improved defense is quite noticeable and is having an effect on the pitching staff both astacio and martinez were bailed out in recent starts by great defensive plays martinez pitched into the ninth in game that might have seen him lifted in the third in past years astacio lasted innings the other day under similar circumstances the dodgers are turning double plays and keeping more balls in the infield than last year and piazza has also been great on defense he has thrown out of batters trying to steal and has at least one pick off at first wallach clearly has contributed to the over all improvement on defense but his offense is awful and he has cost the dodgers some runs but don think he is as bad as his current average suspect he will come out of this slump much as davis and straw seem to have come out of theirs dodger newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net usc sdd hp com hpscit sc hp com cupnews0 cup hp com news1 boi hp com hp pcd hpcvaac koufax cv hp com paula from paula koufax cv hp com paul andresen subject re let it be known message id apr15 hpcvaac cv hp com sender nobody hpcvaac cv hp com nobody nntp posting host koufax cv hp com organization hewlett packard company corvallis oregon usa references issbtl byuvm bitnet date thu apr gmt lines in article issbtl byuvm bitnet issbtl byuvm bitnet writes would like to make everyone aware that in winning the nl west the atlanta braves did not lead wire to wire through games of the houston astros are percentage points ahead of the unbeatable braves and they deserve to be if for no other reason than salvaging little of the honor of the nl west the supposed strongest division in baseball lost of to the east yesterday with only the astros prevailing we will stretch no farm animal beyond its natural length paula koufax cv hp com paul andresen hewlett packard home nw mckinley corvallis or sabr member since path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net paladin american edu howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet meaddata dougr from dougr meaddata com doug ritter newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re expanded nl strike zone was re surfeit of offense date apr gmt organization mead data central dayton oh lines message id qkd8u krv meaddata meaddata com references apr14 cs cornell edu news duke edu nntp posting host birch meaddata com in article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes in article apr14 cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes we won really be able to say anything for at least another couple of weeks but so far it looks like homerific season might the umps be squeezing the strike zone watching the braves on tbs would have said that the strike zone in the nl has expanded this season specifically it appears that the strike zone has moved above the belt yeah the announcers have commented on that also but it was also my perception however the strike zone hasn climbed all the way up to the letters it more like little ways under the letters any other perceptions out there judging by the way the reds pitchers have performed thus far it appears to me that the zone has been squeezed to the size of grape douglas ritter dougr meaddata com life is short ride hard uunet meaddata dougr path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net noc near net uunet meaddata brian from brian meaddata com brian curran newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re ve found the secret date apr gmt organization mead data central dayton oh lines distribution world message id qkeji lgu meaddata meaddata com references apr15 cs cornell edu nntp posting host taurus meaddata com in article apr15 cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes why are the red sox in first place eight games into the season they already have two wins each from clemens and viola clemens starts again tonight on three days rest huh clemens pitched last on saturday giving him his usual four days rest what up are the sox going with four man rotation is this why hesketh was used in relief last night brian curran mead data central brian meaddata com didn think should ve been asked to catch when the temperature was below my age carlton fisk chicago white sox catcher on playing during degree april ball game newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell tedward from tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer subject re pleasant yankee surprises message id apr15 cs cornell edu organization cornell univ cs dept ithaca ny references netnews upenn edu apr15 sarah albany edu date thu apr gmt lines in article apr15 sarah albany edu js8484 albnyvms bitnet writes in article netnews upenn edu sepinwal mail sas upenn edu alan sepinwall writes spike owen sure he hitting like crazy but the guy cannot field to save his life and they said he was brought in to provide defense velarde stankiewicz and even silvestri are better defensively than owen remember it still early look for his offense to tail off and his defense to improve hopefully he has that rep because heard that either last year or over the last years or something like that he has the third highest fielding percentage among major league shortstops behind and tony not gonna help this sorry mets team at all fernandez do agree though that he has not looked all that impressive in the field thus far owen only has one error so far believe that seriously underrepresents the harm he has done in the field owen will cleanly play any ball he reaches he will have fine fielding percentage like always the problem is that he doesn reach anything that isn hit straight at him this wouldn be quite as obvious problem if he were playing next to kelly gruber or robin ventura but the third baseman for the yankees is wade boggs who should have moved across the diamond last year ve only seen one game abbott first start but there were three balls hit to the left side which would have been stopped by quality defensive players instead they were charged as hits against abbott cheers valentine newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl adobe snichols from snichols adobe com sherri nichols subject re braves pitching updatedir message id apr15 adobe com sender usenet adobe com usenet news organization adobe systems incorporated references apr14 adobe com apr14 pts mot com apr15 acad drake edu date thu apr gmt lines in article apr15 acad drake edu sbp002 acad drake edu writes or second starter it seems to me that when quality pitchers take the mound the other teams score less runs the team that scores the most runs wins this puts the team with the better pitching at the advantage providing they can stop the opposing team from scoring runs low scoring game would clearly benefit the braves not clear to me at all certainly rather have team who was winning games than games in the game luck is going to play much bigger role than in the game sherri nichols snichols adobe com newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet boulder ucsu spot colorado edu timlin from timlin spot colorado edu michael timlin subject re expanded nl strike zone was re surfeit of offense message id timlin spot colorado edu sender news ucsu colorado edu usenet news system nntp posting host spot colorado edu organization university of colorado boulder references news duke edu apr15 scott skidmore edu date thu apr gmt lines jrogoff scott skidmore edu jay rogoff writes it was my impression watching the mets rockies that umpires were calling strikes above the belt too but not as far up as the letters it would be nice if this were the case the umps saw the weekend boxscores too they knew the pitchers needed some help or they would be watching the sunrise mike timlin timlin spot colorado edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu wsu cs destroyer cs ubc ca unixg ubc ca stlouis from stlouis unixg ubc ca phill st louis newsgroups rec sport baseball subject billy taylor brave or jay date apr gmt organization university of british columbia vancouver canada lines distribution world message id qkg29innktf skeena ucs ubc ca nntp posting host unixg ubc ca does anyone know where billy taylor is richmond or syracuse he was taken by the jays in the rule draft but not kept on the roster baseball weekly said that he was demoted to syracuse but toronto paper indicated that the braves took him back is there an atlanta fan or anyone reading this who knows thanks psl newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu wsu cs vela acs oakland edu cs uiuc edu cs uiuc edu steph from steph cs uiuc edu dale stephenson subject defensive averages third base message id c5jjrj em3 cs uiuc edu summary career defensive averages at third organization university of illinois dept of comp sci urbana il date thu apr gmt lines compiled from the last five defensive average reports here are the career das for the individual players in the reports stats are courtesy of sherri nichols players are listed in descending order third basemen name mitchell kevin gonzales rene leius scott pendleton terry ventura robin wallach tim gruber kelly pagliarulo mike harris lance howell jack williams matt caminiti ken sabo chris gaetti gary buechele steve salazar luis pecota bill schmidt mike riles ernie boggs wade martinez egdar molitor paul phillips tony nl average brookens tom king jeff seitzer kevin al average jacoby brook hansen dave law vance magadan dave jefferies greg sharperson mike zeile todd baerga carlos hayes chris livingstone scott hamilton kelly pat lyons steve oberkfell ken johnson howard bell buddy lansford carney presley jim schu rick worthington cal hollins dave sheffield gary blauser jeff fryman travis gantner jim gomez lee palmer dean dale stephenson steph cs uiuc edu grad student at large it is considered good to look wise especially when not overburdened with information golden kimball newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net europa eng gtefsd com fs7 ece cmu edu pellns alleg edu news from luriem alleg edu michael lurie the liberalizer subject re the all time greats team message id apr15 alleg edu sender news alleg edu organization allegheny college references apr14 iscsvax uni edu date thu apr gmt lines in article apr14 iscsvax uni edu reed5575 iscsvax uni edu writes dave winfield name does not go in the same sentence as aaron robinson and ott in terms of peak and repeat peak years winfield has done it all he has batted in the for season drove in and more runs many times in row before his injury consistently hit at or near while knocking in home runs have you even looked at dave winfield slugging percentage for three or of his best seasons still think that dave was one of the better of all time but obviously not the best he was one of the best athletes evr to play baseball he hit line drives that hit the scoreboard in left center field feat np one has done in the new stadium heck only or other people have hit it over that green fence since it has been remodeled he could field had bullet arm and his hitting was comparable in many seasons to gary sheffields and barry bonds of last season he is older now and slowing down takes more of an uppercut to lift the ball out of the park but he will always be my hero and my idol there is nothing that could make me happier than george inviting dave back to the bronx to play his last year of ball with the yankees of course he will most likely refuse the offer but who knows for million dollars he ll play heck they are giving gallego million this year having dave as their dh while leaving him time to play the field when tartabull is injured or nokes and mass are traded should give the yanks the inspiration and leadership that will sweep in new age of yankee domination michael lurie newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net europa eng gtefsd com fs7 ece cmu edu pellns alleg edu news from luriem alleg edu michael lurie the liberalizer subject re pleasant yankee surprises message id apr15 alleg edu sender news alleg edu organization allegheny college references netnews upenn edu date thu apr gmt lines in article netnews upenn edu sepinwal mail sas upenn edu alan sepinwall writes some pleasant and then some not so pleasant surprises about the edition of the bronx bombers so far wickman friend made comparison between wickman and jack morris they never have impressive stats but they always find some way to win although morris seems to be losing that ability figured that wickman would be the least important part of the steve sax trade best trade since we got that ruth guy maybe winding up as good middle reliever but like what ve seen so far he doesn pitch pretty but he gets the job done actually kind of liked the abott trade we did trade the rookie of the year snow but with don mattingly at first for another years why bother newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net europa eng gtefsd com fs7 ece cmu edu pellns alleg edu news from luriem alleg edu michael lurie the liberalizer subject re pleasant yankee surprises message id apr15 alleg edu sender news alleg edu organization allegheny college references netnews upenn edu date thu apr gmt lines in article netnews upenn edu sepinwal mail sas upenn edu alan sepinwall writes farr era is in the or and howe is infinite didn think such thing was possible but it is actually according to usa today howe has inning atttributed to him but maybe that is incorrect by the excellent report newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net europa eng gtefsd com fs7 ece cmu edu pellns alleg edu news from luriem alleg edu michael lurie the liberalizer subject yankee fears message id apr15 alleg edu sender news alleg edu organization allegheny college date thu apr gmt lines ll tell youm all one thing steve howe and farr are much better then the worst pitcher in yankee pitching who do you think am talking about ll post the answers if you mail to me use reply or post you re answers but mailing them to me meaqns that will post the final results have one particular horrid pitcher in mind newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net europa eng gtefsd com fs7 ece cmu edu pellns alleg edu news from luriem alleg edu michael lurie the liberalizer subject re pleasant yankee surprises message id apr15 alleg edu sender news alleg edu organization allegheny college references netnews upenn edu date thu apr gmt lines in article netnews upenn edu sepinwal mail sas upenn edu alan sepinwall writes thanks alan that was well thought out even written in an entertaining style path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu darwin sura net jhunix hcf jhu edu jhuvms hcf jhu edu hasch from hasch jhuvms hcf jhu edu bruce doppleackers anonymous hasch newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re dave kingman for the hall of fame followup to rec sport baseball date apr est organization the johns hopkins university hcf lines sender hasch jhuvms hcf jhu edu bruce hasch distribution na message id apr199316413057 jhuvms hcf jhu edu references apr15 news yale edu nntp posting host jhuvms hcf jhu edu summary dave winfield was marginal ballplayer yeah right keywords hall of fame winfield kingman murray joe lundy news software vax vms vnews in article apr15 news yale edu steve tomassi writes hi baseball fans so what do you say don you think he deserves it mean heck if dave winfield ho hum is seriously being considered for it as is lee smith ha then why don we give dave kingman chance or darrell evans yeah yeah after the hall of fame takes in them it can take in eddie murray and jeff reardon oh yeah dave winfield marginal player guy didn hit lick had negligible power was crap fielder and had no staying power dave winfield now entering his believe th big league season is still damn decent hitter admittedly his defense has slipped great deal but in his prime he had powerful arm and great range take look at the stats don know where you even begin to make an argument that winfield and kingman are similar players kingman was one dimension power hitter he couldn field he ran like an anvil hit for low average though if remember right his obp wasn that hideous and for those who consider such things important was absolute primo dick eddie murray yup only the best st baseman of the know that mvp votes are conducted by mediots but given that he got jobbed out of the mvp he deserved in it seems that he wasn overrated by the media lee smith hmmmm this one actually pretty close he had solid dependable career as closer despite pitching in some nasty parks wrigley fenway have to take closer look at the stats it been while but it seems lee arthur is of hof caliber you do make legitimate point about the hof credentials of relievers simply racking up lot of saves doesn mean whole hell of lot if you blow bunch too simply because minnesota and boston and for month atlanta used reardon as closer for longer than he should have been one the equalizer has racked up an impressive number of saves no way should homerman be in the hof imho darrell evans nice career actually bit underrated kinda like ted simmons imho but not hof er well in any case am sick and tired mostly sick of everybody giving hall of fame consideration to players that are by today standards marginal lemme ask you this who the hell playing the game isn marginal honestly ozzie smith and robin yount don belong there they re both shortstops that just hung around for long time big deal let be little more selective huh stop handing out these honors so liberally save them for the guys who really deserve it face it if something now wait goddamn minute here ozzie smith absolutely redefined the position of shortstop his defense was so good that he won something along the lines of gold gloves again gold gloves are mediot biased and good argument could be made that larkin deserved one or two of ozzie more recent awards but usually this is tempered by someone else in the early getting the gold gloves ozzie deserved earlier in his career ozzie offense you ask good obp great speed numbers in park which for most of his career depressed offense admittedly no power cept against tom niedenfuer but still definite asset offensively yount hits mvp at two different positions uh huh real stiff his was one of the great years ever by player in recent memory and probably ranks behind only the peak seasons of wagner and banks as far as ss numbers go he clear hof er imho isn done there will be little prestige in the hall of fame anymore when certain individuals believe that steve garvey or jack morris are potential candidates the absurdity is apparent gee can these guys even compare to the more likely future hall of famers like kirby puckett or nolan ryan well as far as garvey goes you re right garvey is mediot candidate pushed because of his winning attitude minor factor if one at all and his great defense no errors admittedly but the range of tree stump garvey shouldn be in the hof skyjack ve said lot of nasty things about skyjack in the last year or so but this is mostly in response to mediots and woofers who talk about morris ability to win which is nothing more than morris ability to pitch when toronto to score tons of runs at this point morris is an average pitcher although from his early returns in he may be damned close to done but in all fairness morris was dominant pitcher in the for up and down tiger teams while was obviously great year for detroit the rest of the decade the team was generally in contention but not favorites morris career numbers are quite good and worthy of hof consideration ryan of course but be careful guarantee you that someone will throw back your earlier logic about yount and smith being shortstops who hung around long time after all nolan never won cy damn he just pitcher who hung around for years his record is mediocre of course nolan hof er puck probably although he got to play reasonably well for few more years years even good ones aren enough to make the hof most likely that said believe puckett will make the hof pretty much regardless of how the rest of his career turns out barring something really tragic or sudden he very popular in the media and with fans and legitimately has been one of the best cf in the game since he joined the league ve always liked the guy and hope he does make it and in the end think the puck will make it in but really it too early to sell this debate comes up rather frequently on the net and believe it or not never tire of it it an interesting subject here an off the top of my head list of potential hof ers from each team probably left couple of guys off so feel free to follow up won consider anyone who started playing after about again too early to tell note these are all active players not counting recent retirees baltimore cal ripken should be lock by now even if gehrig record stands boston roger clemens might be lock already which is amazing dawson detroit alan trammell and lou whitaker possibilities milwaukee robin yount discussed earlier new york wade boggs possibly mattingly long shot toronto paul molitor and jack morris possibilities kansas city george brett lock minnesota kirby too early to tell winfield lock oakland eckersley lock mcgwire too early rickey lock welch long shot texas the mighty nolan too early to consider canseco or strange cubs sandberg lock st louis ozzie lock lee smith probably new york murray almost lock saberhagen obviously he got to regain past form and most certainly not vince coleman despite what he ll tell you los angeles butler strawberry and hershiser are all long shots san diego tony gwynn pretty good shot colorado dale murphy good shot ryan bowen just to see if you re awake before get flames this is an off the top of the head list there probably few deserving candidates that left off and didn include barry bonds will clark any atlanta starting pitcher frank thomas canseco mcgriff etc because only considered guys who started playing before mail or post almost fear what may have started here bruce hasch hasch jhuvms hcf jhu edu sell the team eli if hitter is good fastball hitter does that mean should throw him bad fastball larry andersen newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel news intercon com psinntp asd com scott from scott asd com scott barman subject re best homeruns message id apr15 asd com organization american software development corp west babylon ny references apr13 ast saic com apr14 acad drake edu apr14 ra msstate edu distribution na date thu apr gmt lines darryl strawberry moon shots were fun he can hit those high and far home runs that if he actually ran them out he be rounding second base by the time they landed we used to say that he should have to file flight plan at laguardia for some of them then bull durham came out and that was changed on homers he pulled that didn go high they were microwave home runs microwave as in they got outta there in hurry in game in he came off the bench with the flu and on the second pitch send rocket down the right field line that didn even allow bob murphy the luxury of home run call the story went he stayed in the clubhouse the with the mets down by two and two on davey johnson sent for him to pinch hit he came out of the clubhouse saying one swing and we go home he hit the homer ran the bases then went straight for the clubhouse to shower and go home those were the days scott barman mets mailing list feed the following into your shell scott asd com mail mets request asd com subscribe let go mets newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel news intercon com psinntp asd com scott from scott asd com scott barman subject re baseballisdead message id apr15 asd com organization american software development corp west babylon ny references apr8 pony ingres com q1sqeinn7i5 master cs rose hulman edu apr8 midway uchicago edu date thu apr gmt lines in article apr8 midway uchicago edu as16 midway uchicago edu writes my question to you all is why does the media seem to embrace the theme of the death of baseball so strongly have seen articles of similar vein in the chicago tribune and in sports editorials on tv maybe because baseball is the only business where those who are responsible for the fiscal aspects of the game preach gloom and doom these allegedly intelligent people seem to predict bad times losing money bankruptcies at an alarming rate and there going to be an increased degradation of the product they produce could you imagine ibm with all their problems promoting themselves the way major league baseball does their stock would plummet to unthinkable depths not that they are too far from it now what would happen at gm where would gm be if they admitted to cutting corners and producing an inferior product because of alleged labor problems think it shows lack of confidence for the people who run the game anyway it just frustrates me when the media says such things because it inevitably leads to owners trying quick fixes like increasing play offs to satisfy television or trying interleague play to drum up interest forget it word has it three divisions with wild card is just about done deal it has to be decided soon since negotiations with the networks also have to begin soon scott barman mets mailing list feed the following into your shell scott asd com mail mets request asd com subscribe let go mets path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu ub dsinc netnews upenn edu netnews cc lehigh edu ns1 cc lehigh edu jsr2 from jsr2 ns1 cc lehigh edu john stephen randolph newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re all time best players message id apr15 ns1 cc lehigh edu date apr gmt organization lehigh university lines in article apr13 bsu ucs mbstultz leo bsuvc bsu edu writes ve recently been working on project to determine the greatest players at their respective postions my sources are total baseball james historical abstract the ballplayers biography word of mouth and my own biased opinions feel free to comment suggest flame whatever but tried to be as objective as possible using statistical data not inlcuded for time convience sake judged on rel ba adj ops total average fielding range runs total player rating total baseball stolen bases for curiosity sake tpr and years played mvp career lou gehrig jimmie foxx eddie murray hank greenberg johnny mize willie mccovey dick allen harmon killebrew kieth hernandez it before except after and in people named keith bill terry george sisler eddie collins joe morgan jackie robinson rogers hornsby nap lajoie rhyne sandberg learn to spell it ryne charlie gehringer rod carew bobby grich bobby doerr ss honus wagner cal ripken jr john lloyd ozzie smith robin yount joe cronin arky vaughan luke appling ernie banks lou boudreau mike schmidt ed matthews george brett wade boggs ron santo brooks robinson frank baker darrell evans pie traynor ray dandridge how can brooks be think he would at least be ahead of ron santo josh gibson darren daulton mvp yogi berra johnny bench mickey cochrane bill dickey gabby hartnett roy campanella gary carter carlton fisk thurman munson lf ted williams stan musial rickey henderson carl yastrzemski barry bonds tim raines joe jackson ralph kiner willie stargell al simmons cf willie mays ty cobb tris speaker mickey mantle joe dimaggio oscar charleston andre dawson duke snider kirby puckett dale murphy rf babe ruth hank aaron frank robinson mel ott al kaline reggie jackson dave winfield roberto clemente tony gwynn pete rose walter johnson lefty grove cy young christy mathewson pete alexander tom seaver roger clemens bob gibson warren spahn satchel paige juan marichal whitey ford bob feller jim palmer steve carlton overall estimated ruth williams mays cobb aaron wagner speaker schmidt johnson mantle musial dimaggio robinson grove henderson gibson young collins foxx mathewson alexander morgan robinson hornsby ott seaver clemens matthews lajoie yastrzemski kaline brett gibson spahn charleston berra ripken jr lloyd raines sandberg gehringer smith yount ba bonds paige jackson marichal ford feller boggs again feel free to comment mike bsu newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net paladin american edu howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu news cso uiuc edu uxa cso uiuc edu djc47305 from djc47305 uxa cso uiuc edu doc subject re evil smile on my face as cubs beat braves date thu apr gmt message id c5jhdy f13 news cso uiuc edu sender usenet news cso uiuc edu net noise owner organization university of illinois at urbana lines boy hats off to any cubs fan who can actually muster up the courage to put down braves fans mean all the braves have done is gone to two consecutive world series also being the cubs fan that am really have to hand it to all the braves fans out there that are capable of driving me crazy with that infernal cheer that they have however do have to protest anyone saying that all cubs fans are stupid the way see it either just too stupid to acknowledge it or that observation was just plain wrong you might have us confused with bear fans anyway about two weeks ago just about everyone was saying that the cubs would finish up last in their division even behind florida sheesh these same people were predicting the braves to clean up in their respective division well we re ten games into the season and these people are little less vocal now wonder why well the way see it the east is up for grabs and whoever wants it most is going to take it with the exception of florida every team seems to have good batting and pitching with philly presently leading the pack but just have to point out if the cubs do take the east they ll do it without the benefit of competent manager however and it pains me to say it the pennant is going to go to the west just had to get that off my chest doc bem benefit of compee newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu csus edu news ucdavis edu dale ucdavis edu ez027993 from ez027993 dale ucdavis edu gary built like villanueva huckabay subject jose canseco swing vs message id c5jkik zf ucdavis edu sender usenet ucdavis edu organization julio machado candlelight vigil society distribution na date thu apr gmt lines was going over some videos last night studying and videotapes of jose canseco proved to be very interesting and enlightening here my analysis of jose canseco circa sep and jose canseco circa june he bulked up too much period he needs to lose about pounds not gain more bulk his bat speed has absolutely vanished conservatively say he lost of his bat speed and that huge amount of speed that open stance is killing him note that he acts sort of like brian downing way open to start then closes up as ball is released downing could do this without significant head movement canseco can also note that canseco doesn always close his stance the same way sometimes his hips are open sometimes they re fully closed without good starting point it hard to make adjustments in your swing what would do if were jose aside from salting away large sum of cash that could never touch so that never have to work again restructure my entire swing first minimize movement before the swing close and widen the stance and severely cut down the stride take on my swing hopefully this will cut down on the time need to swing and will allow me to move the bathead more freely second drop pounds cut out the weight work third relax the wrists will cost some power but until can find my stroke concentrate on keeping the back shoulder up rolling the wrists through the strike zone and hit line drives his strength is more than enough so that some of those line drives will get out of the park if canseco open stance and resulting bad habits are result of his back problems he ll be out of baseball in three years if not he could still hit hr gary huckabay you think that loud enough hole movie rights well if you re having trouble hearing it sir available thru be happy to turn it up for you didn ted frank know that many people your age liked king path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu csd4 csd uwm edu paul from paul csd4 csd uwm edu paul krueger newsgroups rec sport baseball subject brewer bullpen rocked again date apr gmt organization computing services division university of wisconsin milwaukee lines distribution world message id qki7tinni59 uwm edu nntp posting host originator paul csd4 csd uwm edu for the second straight game california scored ton of late runs to crush the brewhas it was six runs in the th for win monday and five in the th and six in the th for win yesterday jamie navarro pitched seven strong innings but orosco austin manzanillo and lloyd all took part in the mockery of bullpen yesterday how this for numbers maldanado has pitched three scoreless innings and navarro era is the next lowest on the staff is wegman at ouch it doesn look much better for the hitters hamilton is batting while thon is hitting and has seven rbi the next highest is three the next best hitter is jaha at and then vaughn who has the team only hr at another ouch looking at the stats it not hard to see why the team is in fact doesn sound bad when you re averaging three runs game and giving up game still it early and things will undoubtedly get better the offense should come around but the bullpen is major worry fetters plesac and austin gave the brewers great middle relief last year lloyd maldanado manzanillo fetters austin and orosco will have to pick up the pace for the team to be successful milwaukee won number of games last year when middle relief either held small leads or kept small deficits in place the starters will be okay the defense will be alright and the hitting will come around but the bullpen is big question mark in other news nilsson and doran were reactivated yesterday while william suero was sent down and tim mcintosh was picked up by montreal today game with california was cancelled salty newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech ncar catch the fever scd ucar edu baseball from baseball catch the fever scd ucar edu gregg walters subject ryan on dl message id apr15 ncar ucar edu sender news ncar ucar edu usenet maintenance organization scientific computing divison ncar boulder co references c5jhdy f13 news cso uiuc edu date thu apr gmt lines heard minutes ago on koa radio denver nolan ryan to have arthroscopic on knee and to miss weeks rockies nied lead mets gooden in th all runs in first inning gregg baseball ncar ucar edu cr cr colorado rockies newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net agate headwall stanford edu nntp stanford edu punjabi from punjabi leland stanford edu sanjeev punjabi subject when does fred mcgriff of the padres become free agent message id apr15 leland stanford edu sender news leland stanford edu mr news organization dsg stanford university ca usa date thu apr gmt lines path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net europa eng gtefsd com fs7 ece cmu edu news sei cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu pitt edu traven from traven pitt edu neal traven newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re braves pitching updatedir message id blue cis pitt edu date apr gmt references apr14 pts mot com sender news pitt edu lines newsreader tin version pl8 dave naehring x2079 p7630 ep502dn pts mot com wrote in article adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes every single piece of evidence we can find points to major league baseball being offense defense run scored is just as important as run prevented this certainly passes the common sense test for me but is there any statistical evidence to say what percent of defense is pitching and what percent is fielding really like to know btw sherri thanks for the da data find it fascinating one of the chapters in palmer and thorn hidden game is titled pitching is of baseball implying that fielding is how do they determine that beats me it been long long time since read it one also has to separate offense into batting and baserunning with the split probably somewhere around and neal traven pitt edu you re only young once but you can be traven vms cis pitt edu immature forever larry andersen path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu lynx unm edu carina unm edu kbos from kbos carina unm edu mitchell bose newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re tigers date apr gmt organization university of new mexico albuquerque lines message id qki14inn4ih lynx unm edu references rk0vsanu miamiu bitnet nntp posting host carina unm edu thud see sig kurt bose as in daisy not rose kbos carina unm edu help cleanse of all mindless woofing whenever someone at your site posts an article with subject of the form my team r00lz simply look him up in the directory hunt him down and beat him senseless easy fun rewarding path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net spool mu edu nigel msen com yale edu yale gumby destroyer vela acs oakland edu vela acs oakland edu ragraca from ragraca vela acs oakland edu randy graca newsgroups rec sport baseball subject sparky anderson gets win tigers beat date apr organization oakland university rochester michigan lines message id ragraca vela acs oakland edu nntp posting host vela acs oakland edu tigers manager sparky anderson gets his th career win as moments ago the tigers completed two game sweep over the oakland at tiger stadium by beating the here are the highlights oakland detroit chad krueter scored skeeter barnes from st with an rbi double in the bottom of the ninth against none other than dennis eckersley to give the tigers the victory barnes also had an rbi single to score thurmond to tie the score in the ninth also off eckersley sp the got their runs on an rbi single by mcgwire in the st and solo homer by reuben sierra in the th deer doubled home kirk gibson in the th for the other tiger run john doherty pitched another strong game for the tigers once again lasting through the seventh inning he was relieved by bolton and then david haas in the th and haas got the win bobby witt started for the and was replaced by honeycutt in the th followed by goose gossage in the th and finally eckersly in the th doherty gave up both of the runs while witt gave up the first tiger run and eckerseley gave up the last two in the post game interview on wjr radio in detroit sparky anderson said its one of the few times he gotten emotional in his managing career it was big moment for him and sure all of us tiger fans are unanimously very happy for him and what way to get number considering the circumstances think it might be appropriate to say woof go tigers randy path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet olivea rsmith from rsmith strobe atc olivetti com russ smith newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re jose canseco swing vs message id olivea atc olivetti com date apr gmt references c5jkik zf ucdavis edu sender news olivea atc olivetti com distribution na organization olivetti atc cupertino ca usa lines in article c5jkik zf ucdavis edu ez027993 dale ucdavis edu gary built like villanueva huckabay writes here my analysis of jose canseco circa sep and jose canseco circa june he bulked up too much period he needs to lose about pounds not gain more bulk ve been saying that for at least years now and even the conditioning guru told jose he was carrying too much weight and losing some would help his back although don for one second believe jose used steroids his back problems are very similar to problems alot of steroid users experience because they are simply carrying too much weight on their frame see jeff bregel ex er as textbook example and imho jose is too big for his frame his bat speed has absolutely vanished conservatively say he lost of his bat speed and that huge amount of speed can imagine how to estimate bat speed but its pretty obvious that jose is missing fastballs he used to hit likely due to his back that open stance is killing him note that he acts sort of like brian downing way open to start then closes up as ball is released downing could do this without significant head movement canseco can also note that canseco doesn always close his stance the same way sometimes his hips are open sometimes they re fully closed without good starting point it hard to make adjustments in your swing don know he had an even more open stance when he first came up with the and had no problems with it then it might be that pre back problems he was quick enough to cover up any deficiencies the stance caused but now he lost just enough bat speed that the stance hurts him the old saying if you re hot its trigger mechanism if you re cold its hitch first minimize movement before the swing close and widen the stance and severely cut down the stride take on my swing hopefully this will cut down on the time need to swing and will allow me to move the bathead more freely the biggest problem imho is he never has found stance he comfortable with for more than few months he changes his stance so much he loses track of where the strike zone is in wednesday night game he was clearly mad at strike calls on both corners that looked pretty good to me think he no longer knows where the strike zone really is because he changed his stance so much also bit concerned that because he got palmer and gonzalez hitting all the homeruns he ll become competitive swing even harder and screw himself up even worse larussa always said that canseco famous batting practice homer shows did him more harm than good as they encouraged bad hitting habits russ smith don know anything about but know about some george gervin on being an assistant coach path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech pitt edu traven from traven pitt edu neal traven newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re the phillies deja vu message id blue cis pitt edu date apr gmt references c5i7hc hqo news udel edu sender news pitt edu lines newsreader tin version pl8 robert hite philly bach udel edu wrote think most of the problems mainly arose from manager gene mauch ineptitude in managing the pitching staff down the stretch he abused jim bunning chris short and robin roberts think those are the three pitching each on only days rest for quite some time by the time they hit the last weeks of the season obviously none of these guys had an ounce left in their arm oh well roberts was long gone he was probably an oriole in or maybe colt the rd starter was art mahaffey the previous year ace dennis bennett was the th starter they were indeed up with to go but they won their final two games after the horrid loss streak the final game victory bunning th win if memory serves kept the reds from tying for the title they and the phils were both game behind the cards with the giants another game back the mets couldn hold an early lead against the cards that final sunday or there would have been way tie too bad they couldn have saved some of the or so runs they scored on saturday when they crushed st louis neal traven pitt edu you re only young once but you can be traven vms cis pitt edu immature forever larry andersen path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net europa eng gtefsd com fs7 ece cmu edu news sei cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu andrew cmu edu bf25 from brian austin fraze bf25 andrew cmu edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re tigers date thu apr organization freshman ss general carnegie mellon pittsburgh pa lines message id yfnqmj600iv1q7wgkn andrew cmu edu references rk0vsanu miamiu bitnet nntp posting host po4 andrew cmu edu in reply to rk0vsanu miamiu bitnet basically agree the tigers are my favorite team actually their pitching might actually be better this year than last not that htat saying hole lot how bout that home opener on tuesday by the way sparky goes for win today path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu malgudi oar net ucbeh san uc edu ucunix san uc edu babbage ece uc edu flash ece uc edu rbd newsgroups rec sport baseball subject hal mcrae message id qkft2 pkh babbage ece uc edu from rbd flash ece uc edu bobby davis date apr gmt references hydra gatech edu bb1c589 dak988s vma smsu edu ext organization university of cincinnati nntp posting host flash ece uc edu lines dak988s vma smsu edu writes no hal mcrae is the worst manager in baseball haven seen enough royals games to judge his tactics so you may have point here but ve never seen guy who can waste talent like he can one of the best raw talent staffs in the league and he still finding way to lose imo the royals don have chance to win the pennant even if mcrae suddenly began channeling for john mcgraw ok they have some decent pitchers but when your offense consists of bums like gagne and lind and mcreynolds and mcrae and an over the hill brett you re not going to finish unless mcgraw brings christy mathewson back with him say it is hard to evaluate manager when all of his hitters suck bob davis rbd thor ece uc edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu pitt edu dsinc netnews upenn edu netnews cc lehigh edu lafibm lafayette edu from vb30 lafibm lafayette edu vb30 newsgroups rec sport baseball subject jewish baseball players message id apr93 lafibm lafayette edu date apr gmt sender usenet lafibm lafayette edu organization lafayette college lines originator news lafcol nntp posting host lafibm just wondering friend and were talking the other day and we were for some reason trying to come up with names of jewish baseball players past and present we weren able to come up with much except for sandy koufax somebody stankowitz and maybe john lowenstein can anyone come up with any more know it sounds pretty lame to be racking our brains over this but humor us thanks for your help thanks bobby path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu pitt edu dsinc netnews upenn edu sepinwal from sepinwal mail sas upenn edu alan sepinwall newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re wfan message id netnews upenn edu date apr gmt references apr15 virginia edu c5jc3z knd news udel edu sender news netnews upenn edu organization university of pennsylvania school of arts and sciences lines nntp posting host mail sas upenn edu in article c5jc3z knd news udel edu philly ravel udel edu robert hite writes in article apr15 virginia edu jja2h virginia edu writes does any one out there listen to wfan for those of you who do not know what am talking about it is an all sports radio staion in new york on clear night the signal reaches up and down the east coast in particular want to know how len berman and mike lupica show is go to school in virginia so can listen when there are on during the day just wondering you re right about the signal being strong live in west philadelphia and can get fan almost perfectly it sports fans dream especially if that person is from ny and wants to hear about his teams while he away at school as for lupica berman it turned out to be lupica then berman neither of them wanted to work full four hour show so ed coleman and dave sims old four hour slot was broken down into two seperate two hour show lupica from and berman from and they both happen to suck in comparison to eddie and dave come back guys the fan is an okay sports radio station but doesn come close to the ultimate in sports radio wip in philadelphia the signal might not be as powerful but then again only stations in new york feel obligated to pollute everyone else airwaves with bunch of hoodlum mets fans complaining hours day wip took two of your best sports jockeys too jody macdonald and steve fredericks wip is rockin with sports talk from am till midnight check it out anytime your within few hours of philadelphia if not mistaken wip has the highest sports talk ratings in the nation like said live in philly so can hear fan and or wip whenever want but cannot stand wip and it isn because loathe the philly sports teams the phillies are my favorite nl team yanks are favorite al and the eagles aren too bad either there are two big problems total emphasis on the home teams especially the eagles unlike the fan hosts who can at least answer question about an out of town team if caller asks the wip hosts seem to have no clue about any team that doesn play on broad street also fans periodic sports updates every minutes gives sports news and scores from around the country it very rare to hear an out of town score being reported on wip the hosts with the exception of jody macdonald who miss from his days at fan none of the hosts really seems to have both broad knowledge of the sport or good on air presence the worst is gary cobb who seems to have been hired solely on the basis that he used to play for the eagles anyway that my two cents on the whole fan vs wip battle alan newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet newsflash concordia ca nstn ns ca cs dal ca ug cs dal ca niguma from niguma ug cs dal ca gord niguma subject re notes on jays vs indians series message id c5jm0m jw cs dal ca sender usenet cs dal ca usenet news nntp posting host ug cs dal ca organization math stats cs dalhousie university halifax ns canada references qfifdinndjt senator bedfellow mit edu c5hpcv hl andy bgsu edu distribution na date thu apr gmt lines in c5hpcv hl andy bgsu edu klopfens andy bgsu edu bruce klopfenstein writes cmk athena mit edu charles kozierok writes in article apr13 csd newshost stanford edu nlu xenon stanford edu nelson lu writes guess which line is which ba obp slg ab hr bb just love how the alomar fans left rbis off this list give me break alomar fans left rbi fans and runs off this list because they are dependant on the team to large extent if frank thomas hit first he lose lot of rbi and anyways how many nd place hitters have you known to drive in runs doesn happen that often very unlikely with devon white obp in front of you gord niguma fav player john olerud newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu uunet newsflash concordia ca nstn ns ca cs dal ca ug cs dal ca niguma from niguma ug cs dal ca gord niguma subject re notes on jays vs indians series message id c5jm3n l0 cs dal ca sender usenet cs dal ca usenet news nntp posting host ug cs dal ca organization math stats cs dalhousie university halifax ns canada references blue cis pitt edu c5hxlk fix andy bgsu edu distribution na date thu apr gmt lines in c5hxlk fix andy bgsu edu klopfens andy bgsu edu bruce klopfenstein writes dtate pitt edu david tate writes klopfens andy bgsu edu bruce klopfenstein said just love how the alomar fans left rbis off this list of course they left rbis off we re comparing alomar the individual with baerga the individual so only individual stats count give me break forgot most runs are scored by players stealing home so rbi don count for anything my mistake oh oh we all know what going to happen now don we gord niguma fav player john olerud path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu darwin sura net jhunix hcf jhu edu jhunix hcf jhu edu not for mail from pablo jhunix hcf jhu edu pablo iglesias newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re jewish baseball players date apr organization homewood academic computing johns hopkins university baltimore md usa lines message id qkkodinn5f5 jhunix hcf jhu edu references apr93 lafibm lafayette edu nntp posting host jhunix hcf jhu edu in article apr93 lafibm lafayette edu vb30 lafibm lafayette edu vb30 writes just wondering friend and were talking the other day and we were for some reason trying to come up with names of jewish baseball players past and present we weren able to come up with much except for sandy koufax somebody stankowitz and maybe john lowenstein can anyone come up with any more know it sounds pretty lame to be racking our brains over this but humor us thanks for your help thanks bobby hank greenberg would have to be the most famous because his jewish faith actually affected his play missing late season or was it world series games because of yom kippur pablo iglesias pi ruth ece jhu edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu ux1 cso uiuc edu bradley bradley edu cs1 texdude from texdude cs1 bradley edu philip allen newsgroups rec sport baseball subject ryan rumor message id texdude cs1 bradley edu date apr gmt article cs1 texdude sender news bradley bradley edu organization bradley university lines nntp posting host cs1 bradley edu this just in nolan ryan hurt his right knee in the th inning of the rangers orioles game last night he ll be having arthoscopic surgery that will at best keep him on the dl for two to five weeks just when had almost convinced myself that the rangers rotation would stay healthy this year phil allen texdude cs1 bradley edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse usenet ee pdx edu fastrac llnl gov dan from dan danberg llnl gov dan bergmann newsgroups rec sport baseball subject need software for baseball stats message id qkq0q rl danberg llnl gov date apr gmt article danberg qkq0q rl distribution world organization lawrence livermore national laboratory lines nntp posting host danberg llnl gov looking for software hopefully free and runs on unix box which will keep track of statistics for my company softball team batting avg etc if you know of any please post or respond to me by mail many thanks dan bergmann dbergmann llnl gov newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net sol ctr columbia edu destroyer vela acs oakland edu cs uiuc edu cs uiuc edu steph from steph cs uiuc edu dale stephenson subject re notes on jays vs indians series message id c5jnod hel cs uiuc edu organization university of illinois dept of comp sci urbana il references kime apr13201523 mongoose torolab ibm com c5hpg6 lm andy bgsu edu distribution na date thu apr gmt lines in c5hpg6 lm andy bgsu edu klopfens andy bgsu edu bruce klopfenstein writes kime mongoose torolab ibm com edward kim writes would tend to call the offensive contributions even but alomar wins hands down in defensive capabilities not just talking about the number of errors nobody including lind has the range and athleticism at second base can recall in the recent past anyone turning the double play better than alomar well why don you look up those stats baerga may not be the best defensive second baseman in the league but he damn good check the stats for dps last year and see for yourself according to the defensive average stats posted by sherri baerga had the highest percentage of dps turned in the league while alomar had the worst however alomar had higher defensive average so who would be better using alomar opportunities groundballs possible double plays alomar had groundouts and turned dps baerga would have had with same da dp groundouts and dps using baerga opportunites groundballs possible double plays alomar would have had with the same da dp groundouts and dps baerga had groundouts and dps baerga looks better though it possible his dp would be lower with different ss will baerga consistently turn twice as many double plays however alomar has established high level of defense baerga has not would bet on alomar to be better next year but last year baerga was just as good overall dale stephenson steph cs uiuc edu grad student at large it is considered good to look wise especially when not overburdened with information golden kimball newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu utnut torn csd unb ca news ucs mun ca morgan ucs mun ca jbragg from jbragg morgan ucs mun ca james bragg subject re nl stats message id c5jm1k alt news ucs mun ca sender usenet news ucs mun ca nntp server account organization memorial university of newfoundland references hpfcso fc hp com hpfcso fc hp com date thu apr gmt lines doug those stats are great they help immensely tried to mail you with some comments on them but my mail server does not recognize your address could you mail me with some info on how to get mail to you thanks jim bragg jbragg morgan ucs mun ca newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet newsflash concordia ca sifon falcon from falcon cs mcgill ca scot hughes subject re hate to mention acker but message id apr15 sifon cc mcgill ca keywords acker orioles doppleackers sender news sifon cc mcgill ca nntp posting host binkley cs mcgill ca organization none references apr14 hpcvaac cv hp com apr199316550695 jhuvms hcf jhu edu distribution na date thu apr gmt lines in article apr199316550695 jhuvms hcf jhu edu hasch jhuvms hcf jhu edu bruce hasch writes in article apr14 hpcvaac cv hp com paula koufax cv hp com paul andresen writes feel as if might be causing some bad karma by doing this but just have to know is the ack man still in organized baseball glad you asked the ack man and nine of his relatives are currently impersonating the baltimore orioles pitching staff personally believe that the evil ackers kidnapped the real staff and are currently in the process of impersonating mussina sutcliffe mcdonald olson no no no the ack man is apparently an alien life form much like the pod people from planet mars who can take on any form the ability remains the same however the ack people have been spotted on many teams to date but it appears that the orioles staff mentioned above and the expos bullpen barnes walton fassero gardiner and rojas have been the prime target apparently john wetteland was roughed up by the ack people during spring training due to the fact that his system rejected the takeover and has been on the dl ever since contact the authorities this evil plot must be stopped the ack people can keep jack morris and juan guzman though enjoy watching toronto fans suffer too much to want these guys returned to normal scot scot hughes department of chemical engineering expos in falcon cs mcgill ca mcgill university montreal quebec witty saying here path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu moe ksu ksu edu mccall mccall scott newsgroups rec sport baseball subject mcrae is re torre the worst manager message id apr15 mccall com from scott mccall com scott davis date thu apr cdt reply to scott mccall com scott davis references hydra gatech edu bb1c589 dak988s vma smsu edu ext organization the mccall pattern co manhattan ks usa nntp posting host mis2 nntp posting user scott lines in article bb1c589 dak988s vma smsu edu ext dak988s vma smsu edu writes gt7469a prism gatech edu brian landmann writes joe torre has to be the worst manager in baseball brian very distressed cardinal fan no hal mcrae is the worst manager in baseball ve never seen guy who can waste talent like he can one of the best raw talent staffs in the league and he still finding way to lose ll be surprised if he makes it through the next weeks unless drastic improvement is made kc news was doing report on that they said that mcrae is really batting coach and not manager but for some reason he took the job whatever the reason the royals need new manager now while it is too late scott davis scott mccall com the mccall pattern company uucp widener depot mccall scott mccall road in kansas manhattan ks usa newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu news acns nwu edu casbah acns nwu edu edo from edo casbah acns nwu edu edward ouellette subject re notes on jays vs indians series message id apr15 news acns nwu edu sender usenet news acns nwu edu usenet on news acns nntp posting host unseen1 acns nwu edu organization northwestern university evanston illinois references blue cis pitt edu c5hxlk fix andy bgsu edu blue cis pitt edu distribution na date thu apr gmt lines in article blue cis pitt edu dtate pitt edu david tate writes substituting irony for brains bruce klopfenstein said dtate pitt edu david tate writes of course they left rbis off we re comparing alomar the individual with baerga the individual so only individual stats count forgot most runs are scored by players stealing home so rbi don count for anything uh right you also forgot that you can get an rbi barring hr with nobody on base what fraction of all runs come on solo hr most runs are scored because there happened to be players on base when the batter did something good use the phrase happened to be advisedly lots of people have tried to figure out who the players are who have the most ability to turn it up notch in clutch rbi whatever situations and what they ve found is that there is no evidence that anyone has such an ability to any measurable extent there are no clutch hitters people who tend to do things that would cause an rbi if there were somebody on base end up getting rbis proportional to how many of their teammates obliged by being in position my mistake agree me too rbi are worthless stat of course so is stolen bases because sometimes runners are in front of player that would otherwise run and of course pitchers pitch differently with different people on different bases so batting average slugging and obp out too hmmm guess homers would not count then either my point rbi might not be perfect stat but nothing is and no stat or lack of can tell me there are no clutch hitters maybe no stat can tell me either but some people are just know it ed path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel news udel edu darwin sura net uvaarpa gems vcu edu cabell vcu edu csc2imd newsgroups rec sport baseball subject phillies new ballpark in future message id apr15 cabell vcu edu from csc2imd cabell vcu edu ian derby date thu apr gmt expires sat may gmt organization virginia commonwealth university keywords phillies summary phillies lines attn those who live inthe philadelphia metro area back in september was listening to wip and remember the morning guys were talking with mayor ed rendell the topic of conversation was new ball park for the phillies the location for this new park was suggested to be near th st station at the time the mayor was optimisitic that in the future this could become reality has there been any new news on this subject or is it still pipe dream know the city of philadelphia has other projects ahead such as the new convention center and the upcoming spectrum ii but it would be nice to see this reality it is planned that the phillies leave the vet and leave it solely to the eagles and if that the case the eagles should make the vet grass stadium but that another story want to see that day comments newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel news udel edu darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet walter porthos mse cc bellcore com from mse cc bellcore com michael evenchick f113 subject re dave kingman for the hall of fame organization bellcore livingston nj date thu apr gmt message id apr15 porthos cc bellcore com followup to re dave kingman for the hall of fame references apr15 news yale edu sender netnews porthos cc bellcore com usenet system software lines in article apr15 news yale edu steve tomassi writes hi baseball fans so what do you say don you think he deserves it mean heck if dave winfield ho hum is seriously being considered for it as is lee smith ha then why don we give dave kingman chance or darrell evans yeah yeah after the hall of fame takes in them it can take in eddie murray and jeff reardon am trying to think how to respond to this without involving personal feeling or perceptions and can not without having stats to back up my points however think you approached this the wrong way believe all of the people mentioned here deserve the hall of fame more than dave kingman does feel they were all much better players am not saying fell they deserve to go but that they would deserve it more imho dave kingman definately not they guy only had couple of years were he could hit with atleast respectable averag the rest of his career do not think he was very feared by pitchers also do not think he did lot for the game mean really am met fan he was met for part of his career and still would not back him for the hall of fame dave winfield think so he is feared by pitchers he has had several season where he hit for respectable average and his production numbers are in my opinion without stats better than kingman probably by quite bit also perceive him to be leader maybe not as much as some other people but none the less leader think he has made substantial contributions to the game of baseball and to society examples of this are some of the charitable things he has done know some of this from when he was with the yankees think he the type of player that kids can look up to and while this is definately not the only criteria for the hall of fame think it deserves some consideration lee smith maybe would have to see his stats again but he definately would deserve to go before the likes of kingman darrell evans no eddie murray maybe he has had very good career he is leader although silent one he is good role model are the stats good enough am not sure but would once again believe they are much better than kingman both the average as well as the power numbers but not as good as winfield just think eddie did not have as much publicity for most of his great years jeff reardon my guess is no but it kind of depends on his numbers off the top of my head would take lee smith first well in any case am sick and tired mostly sick of everybody giving hall of fame consideration to players that are by today standards marginal honestly ozzie smith and robin yount don belong there they re both shortstops that just hung around for long time big deal well strongly disagree here both of these guys deserve it for sure talked about leadership above both of these guys are leaders and have been instumental in leading their teams to the post season robin does have very good offensive numbers both average and power and ozzie has okay numbers offensively the difference with ozzie is that if you gave him home run for every run he saved by making an incredible play at shortstop he would have shattered aaron home run mark by now how many of those great plays saved games how many of those great plays motivated his team to rally and win game while believe both of these guys have numbers baseball is about more than numbers or at least winning at baseball is about more than numbers both of these guys are proven stars and belong in the hall of fame as does george brett who also belongs in this class of player let be little more selective huh stop handing out these honors so liberally save them for the guys who really deserve it face it if something isn done there will be little prestige in the hall of fame anymore when certain individuals believe that steve garvey or jack morris are potential candidates the absurdity is apparent gee can these guys even compare to the more likely future hall of famers like kirby puckett or nolan ryan steve garvey am not sure probably not but guess could see someone making case for him jack morris once again not my first choice but can see why someone might bring up his name kirby puckett probably the only reason do not say definately is he still has time left in his career if he continues doing what he has been then my probably will turn into definately nolan ryan is there really any doubt think heard something about him having some records maybe they were not all good don know did not hear any of them just the number he has the numbers he has the contributions to the game and community and he is great role model would not say that he is the best pitcher to ever pitch the game probably not even top but he would be the first pitcher would put in the hall of fame because of his accomplishments no hitters strikeouts respectable numbers even with some weaker teams you can go on and on really hope he gets all the possible votes so in summing up have groups those that belong those that probably do but am not sure and those that lean towards saying don belong at least not without my seeing stats and possibly hearing reasons why they should go yes winfield yount brett not in your mail smith puckett and ryan maybe murray and smith no reardon garvey morris evans and definately kingman as said do not have the stats around so do not have numbers to back this up these are entirely my opinions based on my perceptions mike steve newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet well moon island fester from fester island com mike fester subject re notes on jays vs indians series message id apr15 island com sender usenet island com the usenet mail target organization usr local rn organization references apr13 csd newshost stanford edu rudyc5fxc8 deu netcom com apr14 csd newshost stanford edu distribution na date thu apr gmt lines in article apr14 csd newshost stanford edu nlu xenon stanford edu nelson lu writes second basemen in history he probably didn even have as good season as alomar last year guess which line is which ba obp slg ab hr bb the walks should give it away obp in general somewhat more valuable than slugging and alomar edge in obp was quite bit larger than baerga edge in slugging no sdcn but what more valuable hits more doubles more hrs or more triples and bbs let not forget the extra sbs how many cs of course the hits and homers are more valuable but don forget the outs you can have it both ways baerga higher raw numbers are due to him having more playing time and thus he had more hits and homers but don forget the cost of those outs btw just to answer your question alomar had sb and cs baerga had sb and cs which gives minute plus on alomar side something else to consider alomar splits were slg obp baerga was and pretty clearly alomar got huge boost from his home park say you could make good for them being about equal right now rated baerga higher actually mike disclaimer these opiini damn wq wq exit quitbye ctrlaltdel logout save quit quit zz zzzzzz vi man vi help helpquit man help help exit quit ctrlshftdel hey what does stop l1a path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov nntp server caltech edu schmke from schmke cco caltech edu kevin todd schmidt newsgroups rec sport baseball subject al opi through first week date apr gmt organization california institute of technology pasadena lines message id qklbcinnr1h gap caltech edu nntp posting host sandman caltech edu here is the opi offensive production index for all al players with at least at bats it is early in the season so there are some very high numbers last years leader was frank thomas at teams are denoted by an as the first character of the name and each player has his team preceeding his name the equations used are found at the end of the post comments and suggestions are welcome kevin league opi league ba league slg league oba rank player opi ba slg oba tor carter cle baerga det phillips oak mcgwire tor white bal anderson nyy owen oak rhenderson mil thon oak browne tex palmer det gibson cle howard nyy tartabull tex rodriguez tex gonzalez bos zupcic sea felder oak blankenship min puckett nyy oneill cle belle sea buhner mil hamilton det whitaker det fielder tor sprague whi cora whi raines nyy kelly bos quintana sea tmartinez cal gonzales whi burks cal snow whi karkovice cleveland cle sorrento sea amaral bos cooper min winfield cal curtis bos mvaughn oak steinbach oakland nyy maas kan joyner min knoblauch bos greenwell oak brosius tor olerud bal mercedes nyyankees bal hoiles mil kmak oak dhenderson cle lofton min larkin bos dawson cle camartinez det gladden cal polonia california detroit det tettleton cal disarcina cal easley bal baines tex franco whi ljohnson sea vizquel nyy bwilliams mil gvaughn min hrbek bal cripken seattle cal salmon kan mcreynolds toronto texas min pagliarulo whitesox kan hiatt whi guillen whi thomas kan mcrae boston cle hill nyy mattingly baltimore bal gomez minnesota whi fisk cle jefferson oak neel cal cdavis bos fletcher milwaukee det livingstone tor ralomar kansascity oak bordick tex canseco sea valle bal devereaux kan lind mil surhoff kan brett whi bell cle salomar mil jaha det fryman nyy boggs tex bripken min mack min harper cle fermin bos rivera mil spiers mil yount tor schofield tex hulse sea griffey sea obrien kan macfarlane oak sierra kan jose bos hatcher sea blowers whi ventura tex palmeiro bal reynolds kan mayne cal myers nyy nokes bos calderon bos pena tor molitor det deer det cuyler tor borders whi grebeck bal gdavis tex dascenzo min leius mil reimer tor djackson tex gill kan gagne hr bb sb cs opi ab ba ab slg hr ab oba bb ab bb jet propulsion laboratory schmke cco caltech edu oak grove dr schmidt spc5 jpl nasa gov pasadena ca path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel news udel edu darwin sura net paladin american edu howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov nntp server caltech edu schmke from schmke cco caltech edu kevin todd schmidt newsgroups rec sport baseball subject nl opi through first week date apr gmt organization california institute of technology pasadena lines message id qklu3innr5h gap caltech edu nntp posting host sandman caltech edu here is the opi offensive production index for all nl players with at least at bats it is early in the season so there are some high numbers barry bonds finished last season at welcome comments and suggestions kevin league opi league ba league slg league oba rank player opi ba slg oba phi daulton phi kruk cub grace cub may col boston pit bell col galarraga stl pena stl zeile cin mitchell mon lansing pit slaught mon vanderwal nym tfernandez snf martinez hou bagwell col hayes col eyoung mon alou cin milligan phi dykstra snf bonds flo conine snd plantier hou gonzalez hou anthony col cole atl sanders mon berry cub sosa stl jefferies pit vanslyke montreal los butler mon grissom pit king snd gwynn pit merced nym murray stl gilkey nym bonilla snd walters cub wilson flo weiss philadelphia atl justice pittsburgh stl osmith phi incaviglia pit young stlouis colorado nym hundley nym orsulak snf benjamin atl gant nymets houston mon pitcher phi morandini hou cedeno cin sabo snf manwaring snfrancisco atl blauser snf thompson hou caminiti flo barberie mon cordero snd sheffield los karros snf williams snd mcgriff flo destrade col girardi atl bream mon wood flo santiago phi thompson snf clayton los piazza snd bell los wallach cin larkin pit garcia cincinnati nym coleman nym kent stl whiten cin roberts cubs snf lewis hou finley col clark los pitcher sndiego atl lemke losangeles snf mcgee atlanta cin sanders cin oliver snd gardner los reed phi hollins florida los davis atl pendleton snf clark los strawberry hou biggio phi bell flo magadan stl pagnozzi pit martin col bichette hou taubensee mon bolick flo pose mon cianfrocco nym johnson cin kelly atl nixon nym pitcher pit pitcher cub buechle stl lankford atl olson cub vizcaino cub sanchez phi duncan los offerman snf pitcher mon laker phi chamberlain snd pitcher atl pitcher phi pitcher cub maldonado flo felix cin espy stl jordan atl berryhill cub pitcher snd shipley stl pitcher hou pitcher col benavides cin pitcher cub wilkins flo pitcher col pitcher hr bb sb cs opi ab ba ab slg hr ab oba bb ab bb jet propulsion laboratory schmke cco caltech edu oak grove dr schmidt spc5 jpl nasa gov pasadena ca newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net noc near net uunet microsoft wingnut antond from antond microsoft com anton dejong subject re oakland oaks memorabilia message id apr15 microsoft com date apr gmt organization microsoft corp references apr14 hpcvaac cv hp com apr13 sctc com distribution usa lines there is ebbets field flannels in seattle which makes lots of minor and negro league jackets and jerseys these things are real spendy around for jersey but they are very authentic in look and nicely made paul long live steve bilko and the pcl la angels their phone number is the last catalog shows three oaks jerseys home home home they re each all their merchandise is handmade and is an authentic replica own couple and they are excellent they also have wool caps and jackets you should call to get on their mailing list even if you can afford their prices anton newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu news uta edu cs1442aq from cs1442aq news uta edu cs1442aq subject ryam out for weeks message id apr15 news uta edu organization university of texas at arlington date thu apr gmt lines nolan ryan has torn cartlidge inhis right knee is having surgery and is expected to miss weeks newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net europa eng gtefsd com emory sol ctr columbia edu destroyer vela acs oakland edu cs uiuc edu cs uiuc edu steph from steph cs uiuc edu dale stephenson subject re defensive averages third base message id c5jpwn iyt cs uiuc edu organization university of illinois dept of comp sci urbana il references c5jjrj em3 cs uiuc edu date thu apr gmt lines in c5jjrj em3 cs uiuc edu steph cs uiuc edu dale stephenson writes compiled from the last five defensive average reports here are the career das for the individual players in the reports stats are courtesy of sherri nichols players are listed in descending order and some comments with some players deleted third basemen name mitchell kevin yep that kevin mitchell never would have expected him in the spot gonzales rene it no accident that the first two names are only as with first and second base was the year of the glove average da was points higher in both leagues than any other year leius scott looks good too bad he moving to short pendleton terry highest five year regular though he only had one year as good as kevin mitchell ventura robin wallach tim gruber kelly the other elite fielders in the league pagliarulo mike this is an interesting line his figure was slightly below average his was pathetic and his was the next best year by anybody part of that may be his mobility was with the yankees was with the padres who appear to have rotten infield was with the twins and judging by leius and gaetti the metrodome may be good place to play third williams matt add another to the elite fielders list caminiti ken sabo chris too fielders whose career average may overstate their value don know what happened to caminiti judging by the three previous years his low may be fluke sabo is merely average however his incredible best year ever brings his average up lot buechele steve strange last two years schmidt mike according to reputation one of the best fielders ever at third base but at the end he was below average average in was boggs wade boggs has been pretty good don know what happened in but every other year he has been above average usually by quite bit martinez egdar last year fluke or portent nl average seitzer kevin al average why is it that the two leagues usually have defensive averages very close to one another but very different from year to year any ideas jacoby brook brook is declining hansen dave magadan dave jefferies greg three first time regulars above average in not sure why jefferies gets all the grief about his fielding he never had good year but while at second he improved to become an average fielder and is an average fielder at third zeile todd zeile on the other hand is below average fielder each year he about points below average and it probably not just the park since terry pendleton had excellent das in the three years before this baerga carlos moving back to second was good idea hayes chris so why is hayes supposed to be good defensively he had grand total of one year above the league da and was pretty bad last year johnson howard lansford carney howard johnson and carney lansford separated at birth to his credit hojo did have one above average year lansford couldn even break the mark without the help of the year of the glove hollins dave good hitter but his fielding needs work sheffield gary not good fielder blauser jeff fryman travis both are better off at shortstop gomez lee two consecutive horrible years for leo camden yards doesn seem to have helped his fielding any palmer dean texas slugger debuts with not only the lowest career da but the lowest da at third ever congratulations dean dale stephenson steph cs uiuc edu grad student at large it is considered good to look wise especially when not overburdened with information golden kimball newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net europa eng gtefsd com news ans net newsgate watson ibm com yktnews watson ibm com watson fenway mjones from mjones fenway aix kingston ibm com mike jones subject two stooges sender watson ibm com message id mjones fenway date apr gmt reply to mjones donald aix kingston ibm com organization ibm aix esa development kingston ny lines well the red sox have apparenly resigned herm winningham to aaa contract ted larry simmons signed him to aaa contract then released him from buffalo allowing lou curly gorman to circumvent the rule about not resigning free agents until may clearly neither of these guys is bright enough to be moe mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com make it right before you make it faster newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net transfer stratus com newshub xylogics com steam reeve from reeve steam xylogics com scott reeve subject re yankee fears message id apr15 xylogics com sender usenet xylogics com news nntp posting host steam xylogics com reply to reeve steam xylogics com scott reeve organization xylogics inc burlington ma usa references apr15 alleg edu date thu apr gmt lines rawley eastwick newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu hermes chpc utexas edu news utdallas edu corpgate bnrgate nott torn csd unb ca news ucs mun ca nstn ns ca cs dal ca ug cs dal ca niguma from niguma ug cs dal ca gord niguma subject re notes on jays vs indians series message id c5jmhc sw cs dal ca sender usenet cs dal ca usenet news nntp posting host ug cs dal ca organization math stats cs dalhousie university halifax ns canada references c5ep70 irh andy bgsu edu c5fmxd pm cs dal ca rudyc5fr3q cl netcom com apr13 cs cornell edu apr15 webo dg com distribution na date thu apr gmt lines in apr15 webo dg com lyford dagny webo dg com lyford beverage writes in article apr13 cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes in article rudyc5fr3q cl netcom com rudy netcom com rudy wade writes in article c5fmxd pm cs dal ca niguma ug cs dal ca gord niguma writes reference to history because he certainly didn have the best season for second basemen in history he probably didn even have as good season as alomar last year what do you have some measure like popularity in toronto doesn count that you are basing this statement on uh yes baerga has lot of flash but alomar was the better hitter last year batters ba slg obp ab tb hr rbi bb so sb cs baerga alomar this is fascinating you say that alomar was the better hitter last year and immediately follow that up with numbers showing that baerga had better year the only category that see which shows an advantage for alomar is obp hmmm what about walks and sb baerga got clobbered by alomar in obp and beat him in slg by lesser margin even putting aside any other factors player with point edge in obp is more productive than player with point edge in slg the issue has been studied before and doubt you could come up with any convincing argument the other way people see the batting average and the hr but they don really know their value is worth unless they ve studied the issue closely the fact is that baerga ate up lot more outs than alomar while baerga was making outs alomar was drawing walks and being on base for carter winfield et al gord niguma fav player john olerud newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech usenet ins cwru edu howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu utnut torn nott bnrgate corpgate crchh327 crchh7a9 bratt from bratt crchh7a9 nosubdomain nodomain john bratt subject sandberg runs rbis was re notes on jays vs indians series message id c5jqby m7a news rich bnr ca sender bratt crchh7a9 john bratt date thu apr gmt distribution na references qfifdinndjt senator bedfellow mit edu c5hpcv hl andy bgsu edu c5jm0m jw cs dal ca nntp posting host crchh7a9 organization bell northern research dallas tx lines in article c5jm0m jw cs dal ca niguma ug cs dal ca gord niguma writes alomar fans left rbi fans and runs off this list because they are dependant on the team to large extent if frank thomas hit first he lose lot of rbi and anyways how many nd place hitters have you known to drive in runs doesn happen that often very unlikely with devon white obp in front of you pretty sure that sandberg has done this at least once know someone will correct me if wrong rbis and runs scored are the two most important offensive statistics you can talk about obp and slg all you want but the fact remains the team that scores more runs wins the game flame away john bratt gord niguma fav player john olerud newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech usenet ins cwru edu howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu hobbes physics uiowa edu news iastate edu dunix drake edu acad drake edu sbp002 from sbp002 acad drake edu subject re torre the worst manager message id apr15 acad drake edu lines sender news dunix drake edu usenet news system nntp posting host acad drake edu organization drake university des moines iowa usa references hydra gatech edu date thu apr gmt in article hydra gatech edu gt7469a prism gatech edu brian landmann writes joe torre has to be the worst manager in baseball for anyone who didn see sunday game with right hander pitching he decides to bench lankform left handed hitter and play jordan and gilkey both right handers later in the ninth inning with the bases loaded and two outs he puts lankford hitter with power in as pinch runner and uses luis alicea hitter with no power as pinch hitter what the hell is he thinking educate yourself before you rip on this years manager of the year lankford injured himself in previous game and torre was resting him as far as the whitten gilkey controversy whitten adds some more needed power and if jordan continues to hit the way he has been gilkey will find himself in the starting lineup soon enough sam brian landmann georgia institute of technology internet gt7469a prism gatech edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu malgudi oar net ucbeh san uc edu ucunix san uc edu babbage ece uc edu flash ece uc edu rbd newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re jewish baseball players message id qkne9 s4e babbage ece uc edu from rbd flash ece uc edu bobby davis date apr gmt references apr93 lafibm lafayette edu organization university of cincinnati nntp posting host flash ece uc edu lines hank greenberg was probably the greatest ever he was also subject to lot of heckling from bigots on the opposing teams and in the stands but it never seemed to affect his performance negatively bob davis rbd thor ece uc edu from cherylm hplsla hp com cheryl marks date thu apr gmt subject re omar vizquel grand salami message id hplsla hp com organization hp lake stevens wa path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net newsserver jvnc net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com hp cv hp pcd hplsla cherylm newsgroups rec sport baseball references n9143349 fozzie lines do you think omar grand slam is the result of his new fan club last week banner appeared in the kingdome older women for omar cheryl cheryl marks hp ux address cherylm lsid hp com hp desk cheryl marks hpa100 telenet ma bell usps cheryl marks ms soper hill road everett wa too much of good thing is wonderful mae west newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell tedward from tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer subject re pleasant yankee surprises message id apr15 cs cornell edu organization cornell univ cs dept ithaca ny references netnews upenn edu apr15 alleg edu date thu apr gmt lines in article apr15 alleg edu luriem alleg edu michael lurie the liberalizer writes actually kind of liked the abott trade we did trade the rookie of the year snow but with don mattingly at first for another years why bother be willing to make two wagers snow doesn win roy mattingly is out of baseball within five years skeptical of the first because don think snow is that good player and he is on losing team skeptical of the second because of his back mattingly is this year and how many players play until they are not too many and most of them didn have chronic back problems when they were could be wrong on either or both but think that the smart way to bet cheers valentine newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet mnemosyne cs du edu nyx gspira from gspira nyx cs du edu greg spira subject re baseballisdead message id apr15 mnemosyne cs du edu sender usenet mnemosyne cs du edu netnews admin account organization university of denver dept of math comp sci references apr8 pony ingres com q1sqeinn7i5 master cs rose hulman edu apr8 midway uchicago edu apr15 asd com date thu apr gmt lines scott asd com scott barman writes forget it word has it three divisions with wild card is just about done deal it has to be decided soon since negotiations with the networks also have to begin soon preliminary negotiations started already believe though the word is that they are going slooooooooooooooooooooooowly greg newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net agate headwall stanford edu nntp stanford edu eechen from eechen leland stanford edu emery ethan chen subject re let talk phillies message id apr15 leland stanford edu summary what bullshit sender news leland stanford edu mr news organization dsg stanford university ca usa references apr15 ns1 cc lehigh edu date thu apr gmt lines article from as follows from bml2 ns1 cc lehigh edu brian michael lucy subject re let talk phillies date apr gmt organization lehigh university lines in article uflkll vpcekw15e andrew cmu edu al1x andrew cmu edu amit likhy ani writes excerpts from netnews rec sport baseball apr re let talk phillies u96 msopher vaxc stevens like this oh well how do we spell cellar ninja jew are there any philly fans who want to put money on that if not stop your woofing ben rivera got hammered true last week but tonight he pitched shutout innings and got runs behind him that why we re one phrase for you fuck you thanks newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell tedward from tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer subject re notes on jays vs indians series message id apr15 cs cornell edu organization cornell univ cs dept ithaca ny references c5hxlk fix andy bgsu edu blue cis pitt edu apr15 news acns nwu edu distribution na date thu apr gmt lines in article apr15 news acns nwu edu edo casbah acns nwu edu edward ouellette writes my point rbi might not be perfect stat but nothing is and no stat or lack of can tell me there are no clutch hitters maybe no stat can tell me either but some people are just know it was hoping somebody would mention clutch clutch baerga the two words simply do not go together with runners in scoring position baerga batted last year this doesn quite suck but most batters hit better in this situation alomar he hit with runners in scoring position the difference alomar had rbis in such ab baerga had rbis in such ab baerga got more chances yet succeeded only more times frankly don believe in clutch but if did my vote would go to alomar for mvp let alone best in the al valentine newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net noc near net uunet mnemosyne cs du edu nyx gspira from gspira nyx cs du edu greg spira subject re dave kingman for the hall of fame message id apr15 mnemosyne cs du edu sender usenet mnemosyne cs du edu netnews admin account organization university of denver dept of math comp sci references apr15 news yale edu date thu apr gmt lines steve tomassi writes hi baseball fans so what do you say don you think he deserves it mean heck if dave winfield ho hum is seriously being considered for it as is lee smith ha then why don we give dave kingman chance or darrell evans yeah yeah after the hall of fame takes in them it can take in eddie murray and jeff reardon unfortunately you seem to lack the ability to rate players dave winfield has had better career than half the people in the hall of fame eddie murray and darrel evans are both one of the top players of all time lee smith has had probably the greatest long career of any relief pitcher since with the possible exception of gossage on the other hand kingman probably isn one of the best players of all time and reardon though good pitcher isn in smith class career wise well in any case am sick and tired mostly sick of everybody giving hall of fame consideration to players that are by today standards marginal honestly ozzie smith and robin yount don belong there they re both shortstops that just hung around for long time big deal we re talking of the top players of all time here there probably aren shortstops in history who were better than these two let be little more selective huh stop handing out these honors so liberally save them for the guys who really deserve it face it if something isn done there will be little prestige in the hall of fame anymore when certain individuals believe that steve garvey or jack morris are potential candidates the absurdity is apparent garvey sucked morris while very good pitcher simply doesn belong near cooperstown gee can these guys even compare to the more likely future hall of famers like kirby puckett or nolan ryan if puckett and ryan okay no if there get into to the hall they will be marginal hall of famers unless puckett keeps hitting like he did last year for while longer to put this in perspective here listing of the linear weights values of the careers of the players you mention in parenthesis is how high they are up on the greatest ever list if they make it while no one would claim these are perfect rankings they should give you good value of these guys careers as compared to average players robin yount ozzie smith dave winfield eddie murray darrel evans kirby puckett nolan ryan jack morris dave kingman steve garvey to give you an idea of how these numbers compare to those in the hall of the eligible players whose career stats equaled are in the hall of fame the ones who aren include th century players ron santo bobby grich and bob johnson of those eligible who score between and of are in of those eligible who score between and of are in greg path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu msuinfo netnews upenn edu kkeller from kkeller mail sas upenn edu keith keller newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re phillies new ballpark in future message id netnews upenn edu date apr gmt references apr15 cabell vcu edu sender news netnews upenn edu organization university of pennsylvania school of arts and sciences lines nntp posting host mail sas upenn edu in philadelphia inquirer few days ago it was reported that there were two plans for new phillies stadium the already mentioned th street station proposal and location near broad street and race street think can remember the exact details but the stadium would be build practically downtown there is small lot that could be used according to the paper the th street plan has run into some trouble because amtrak does not want to reroute some of its lines in order to accomodate the stadium don have an opinion just yet just letting everyone know that there are really two options being discussed right now neither of these plans will be put into effect very soon however because nobody wants to pay for it keith keller let go rangers let go quakers kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs when want your opinion ll give it to you newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech rpi scott skidmore edu jrogoff from jrogoff scott skidmore edu jay rogoff subject box score abbrev woes message id apr15 scott skidmore edu organization skidmore college saratoga springs ny date thu apr gmt lines can anybody figure out why some box score abbreviations make absolutely no sense at least in the local gannett rag that finds its way to my door must have stared at cleman in the mets box for good seconds this morning wondering who the hell it was wouldn it make more sense to use colemn jay newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu rpi scott skidmore edu jrogoff from jrogoff scott skidmore edu jay rogoff subject re infield fly rule message id apr15 scott skidmore edu organization skidmore college saratoga springs ny references c5fegu qb hq ileaf com date thu apr gmt lines one last infield fly question that has always puzzled me and hasn yet been addressed believe the rule also does not deal with this situation if infield fly is declared and the ball is caught runners can tag up and advance at their own risk as on any fly ball however if the infield fly is not caught at what point can runner legally leave his base fear of being doubled off for advancing too early when the ball hits the ground when fielder first touches the ball after it hits the ground enlightenment would be appreciated jay newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net noc near net nic umass edu news amherst edu jlroffma from jlroffma unix amherst edu joshua lawrence roffman subject re jewish baseball players message id c5jsxs m0 unix amherst edu sender news unix amherst edu no news is good news nntp posting host amhux3 amherst edu organization amherst college newsreader tin version pl7 references apr15 pony ingres com date thu apr gmt lines baseball players past and present we weren able to come up with much except for sandy koufax somebody stankowitz and maybe john lowenstein can anyone come up with any more know it sounds pretty lame to be racking our brains over this but humor us thanks for your help john lowenstein is definately not jewish many in baltimore thought he was especially after he told the baltimore jewish times so but later he admitted that it was joke newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net spool mu edu nigel msen com yale edu news yale edu berkeley kstar node net yale edu user from sean garrison subject re wfan message id apr16 news yale edu followup to rec sport baseball sender news news yale edu usenet news system nntp posting host berkeley kstar node net yale edu organization yale university references apr15 virginia edu c5jc3z knd news udel edu date fri apr gmt lines in article c5jc3z knd news udel edu philly ravel udel edu robert hite wrote wip took two of your best sports jockeys too jody macdonald and steve fredericks dude are you nuts wfan is second to none jody mac exit was quite loss but if you think fredericks on the fan was much of one you re pretty skewed sean newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl netcomsv orchard la locus com prodnet la locus com cygnus la locus com aardvark from aardvark cygnus la locus com warren usui subject re the phillies deja vu message id apr15 locus com keywords phillies sender news locus com netnews organization locus computing corporation los angeles california references apr14 cabell vcu edu ericsc5hzr5 eui netcom com date thu apr gmt lines in article ericsc5hzr5 eui netcom com erics netcom com eric smith writes yeah the phillies played over their heads almost the whole year but it all caught up to them in one game streak am as old as man and was big phillies fan at the time age the dodgers or somebody else finish two games back that has to be one of the closest last minute scrambles ever since was born in the late pleistocene too remember that year the dodgers were several games out of first and think finished sixth in the league this was kind of odd because they won the world series both the previous year and the following year warren usui one with the universe on scale from to path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet olivea spool mu edu decwrl netcomsv netcom com erics from erics netcom com eric smith newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re the phillies deja vu keywords phillies message id ericsc5jvy4 iq netcom com date apr gmt references apr14 cabell vcu edu ericsc5hzr5 eui netcom com organization netcom on line communication services guest lines previously wrote yeah the phillies played over their heads almost the whole year but it all caught up to them in one game streak am as old as man and was big phillies fan at the time age september is still painful thing to remember but can tell you that the phillies never led the league by that year going by memory alone believe their biggest lead was games and they were ahead when the famous game losing streak began streak during which it seemed that they found just about every way to lose known to man anyway think they rebounded just before the end and won their last couple games and were still in the thing until the final day but finished tied with the giants one game out and didn the dodgers or somebody else finish two games back that has to be one of the closest last minute scrambles ever ok you guys stirred up my childhood memories so went and did some research on the final month or so of the season it turns out that my recollections were pretty darn accurate at least as far as the phillies record goes on september this was the top of the standings gb philadelphia cincinnati st louis san francisco this is game by game description of the remainder of the phillies season date score opponent lead pitcher starting and winner loser houston bunning houston short houston bennett san francisco mahaffey baldschun win san francisco bunning san francisco short baldschun los angeles bennett los angeles wise los angeles mahaffey st louis bunning baldschun cardinals take over nd place from cincinnati st louis short san francisco bennett san francisco mahaffey giants move into tie for nd with st louis san francisco bunning cardinals back in sole possesion of nd place houston short houston bennett houston bunning los angeles wise schantz los angeles short baldschun los angeles bennett baldschun los angeles bunning reds move back into tie for nd with cardinals well so far so good for the phillies but now it all falls apart cincinnati mahaffey reds take sole possesion of nd place cincinnati short cincinnati bennett milwaukee bunning milwaukee short boozer cards now back in rd giants in th milwaukee mahaffey schantz milwaukee bunning phils lose games in days reds take over st cardinals back in rd st louis short cardinals take over nd place phils drop to rd st louis bennett reds and cardinals now tied for st st louis bunning cardinals take game lead over reds cincinnati short roebuck phillies halt game losing streak cards lead reds by game did not play cards lose to mets reds tied for st phils game back cincinnati bunning cards beat mets take first by from reds and phillies whew what finish and the final standings were gb st louis philadelphia cincinnati san francisco now it doesn appear to me that phillies pitchers bunning and short were really overused at least by the four man rotation standard of the day until well along into the game losing streak at which time mauch was probably desperate for win at any cost because the phillies substantial lead had evaporated the way they were used at that time may have made the problem worse although bunning had one of his sharpest games of the year in the final day shutout of the reds that cost the reds share of the pennant bunning pitched complete game six hitter striking out five and walking one it would be inetersting to see though how the total innings for the year for bunning and short stacks up against the rest of the league also notice that the phillies played every day from at least september through october while they didn play substantially more games than the other teams the other teams each had couple days off during that stretch eric smith erics netcom com erics infoserv com ci path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech concert rutgers igor rutgers edu romulus rutgers edu moakler from moakler romulus rutgers edu bam newsgroups rec sport baseball subject the bob dylan baseball abstract message id apr romulus rutgers edu date apr gmt distribution na organization rutgers univ new brunswick lines just little something found while reading the village voice which is not noted for its sports coverage but occasionally the print some interesting features this year the predictions team analyses for the season were presented in the form of bob dylan lyrics don have the article in front of me so ll only give the memorable ones here that remember and know the melody to could dig up more if there is interest yankess to the tune of subterranean homesick blues howe is in the basement mixing up the medicine george is on the pavement thinking bout the government wade boggs in trench coat bat out paid off says he got bad back wants to get it laid off look out kids it somethin you did don know when but it columbus again mets to the tune of like rolling stone once upon time you played so fine you threw away dykstra before his prime didn you people said beware cone he bound to roam but you thought they were just kidding you you used to laugh about the strawberry that was headin out but now you don talk so loud now you don seem so proud about having to shop vince coleman for your next deal phillies to the tune of highway well daulton and dykstra should have some fun just keep them off of highway giants to the tune of the ballad of rubin hurricane carter this is the story of the magowan the man st petersburg came to pan for something that he never done he sits in the owner box but one day he could have been the tampian of the world bill moakler lpo rutgers anime moakler remus rutgers edu po box atlantic anime alliance new brunswick nj chibi con am not an otaku am free man newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu darwin sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu staff tc umn edu kirsch from kirsch staff tc umn edu dave almost cursed the jays kirsch subject going to cubbies game message id c5jq8f mo9 news cis umn edu keywords tickets parking parka sender news news cis umn edu usenet news administration nntp posting host staff tc umn edu organization li carlos and the hormones references qkg29innktf skeena ucs ubc ca distribution usa date thu apr gmt lines well after suffering from an intense fit of minnesota induced cabin fever ve decided to road trip to milwaukee and take in couple of games this weekend couple games at county stadium will be great to relieve tension but thought why not go to wrigley for game too see the cubs are playing the phillies on sat start believe that eastern time listed figured it would be fun to bounce down to wrigley for the day game and live it up little wondering if anyone esp cubbie fans have some advice on if taking skokie hwy south until it runs into what the best way to get to wrigley planning on getting there an hour or two early and paying through the nose for parking to keep things easy is it probable that ll be able to walk up and get bleacher seats or on game day figure since it early in the year ryno out and the weather isn great should be able to get tickets if not what the best way to get advance tickets can call the cubs ticket office directly and pick up tickets at the will call window any advice on where to eat before or after the game do they allow inflatable luv ewe dolls present from lundy into the bleachers dave hung like jim acker slider kirsch blue jays do it again in kirsch staff tc umn edu new quotes out of context not to beat dead horse but it been couple weeks this disappoints me punishments discharges jackhammering stephen lawrence path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net newsserver jvnc net netnews upenn edu sepinwal from sepinwal mail sas upenn edu alan sepinwall newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re yankee fears message id netnews upenn edu date apr gmt references apr15 alleg edu sender news netnews upenn edu organization university of pennsylvania school of arts and sciences lines nntp posting host mail sas upenn edu would mail this to you but my mailserver doesn recognize you or something anyway the worst pitcher on the yanks if you mean currently on the team then have to go with scott schizophrenic no not kamienicki sure occasionally the guy can pitch well for or innings but then he starts to go insane sure sign that he losing his stuff and his mind is when he starts to stalk around the mound between batters and yell at himself the worst all time yanks pitcher gotta go with ed new york have to pitch in gulp new york whitson nuff said outta here like vladimir alan sepinwall xviii what this this is ice this is what happens to water when it gets too cold this this is kent this is what happens to people when they get too sexually frustrated val kilmer real genius newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu ux1 cso uiuc edu uchinews kimbark thf2 from thf2 kimbark uchicago edu ted frank subject re sandberg runs rbis was re notes on jays vs indians series message id apr16 midway uchicago edu sender news uchinews uchicago edu news system reply to thf2 midway uchicago edu organization university of chicago references c5hpcv hl andy bgsu edu c5jm0m jw cs dal ca c5jqby m7a news rich bnr ca distribution na date fri apr gmt lines in article c5jqby m7a news rich bnr ca bratt crchh7a9 nosubdomain nodomain john bratt writes rbis and runs scored are the two most important offensive statistics you can talk about obp and slg all you want but the fact remains the team that scores more runs wins the game flame away so what does that have to do with rbi the team with the most rbi doesn necessarily win the game yes runs are the most important statistice for team so why does every newspaper rank team offense by batting average but for an individual player runs and rbis are context dependent and tell us very little about the player himself and more about his teammates and position in the batting order ted frank thf2 kimbark uchicago edu sorry the card says moops the of law school standard disclaimers newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech ncar csn boulder ucsu spot colorado edu wilbanks from wilbanks spot colorado edu kokopeli subject re old predictions to laugh at message id wilbanks spot colorado edu sender news ucsu colorado edu usenet news system nntp posting host spot colorado edu organization university of colorado boulder references apr15 cs cornell edu date fri apr gmt lines tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes from jpalmer uwovax uwo ca thu sep ron hassey will be minor league manager with the yankees dunno what happened to him maybe can help you he major league coach with the rockies so above prediction is doubly wrong my prediction the red sox cubs series and vikings broncos superbore will occur at the end of the world and one rockie will finish in the top of an offensive catagory this year and no rockie starter will have an era below and the rangers fade will not begin until august they ll give way to the angels but still challenge to the end really not making any of this up if am may god strike me down zzzzzzt thanks for listening valentine dylan wilbanks environ con the official usenet rabid fan of the major of colorado boulder colorado rockies clip this sig for po box boulder co off on your next rockies woof life is bigger this space intenionally blank path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net bogus sura net darwin sura net guvax acc georgetown edu apanjabi from apanjabi guvax acc georgetown edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject phils nl east not so weak message id apr15 guvax acc georgetown edu date apr distribution world organization georgetown university lines love it how all of these people are blaming the phillies success on weak division why don we look at the record of the teams in each division read inter divisional play we ll see that the east is really kicking the shit out of the west know it is early but that is all we have to go on atlanta is just so strong with their ba cincinnati is coming off sweep at veteran stadium in philadelphia and houston was swept in it first three games by the phillies in the astrodome that my western division friends shows that the three best teams in your division may not be as strong as you think phils all the way in braves hit like aaa club reds need marge bob newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech darwin sura net ua1ix ua1vm ua edu crosen1 from crosen1 ua1vm ua edu charles rosen subject lots of runs message id bb11286a crosen1 ua1vm ua edu sender news ua1ix ua edu nntp posting host ua1vm ua edu organization the university of alabama tuscaloosa date fri apr gmt lines have noticed that this year has had lot of high scoring games at least the nl has believe one reason are the expansion teams any thoughts charles newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net ua1ix ua1vm ua edu crosen1 from crosen1 ua1vm ua edu charles rosen subject re torre the worst manager message id bb112a4b crosen1 ua1vm ua edu sender news ua1ix ua edu nntp posting host ua1vm ua edu organization the university of alabama tuscaloosa references hydra gatech edu date fri apr gmt lines in article hydra gatech edu gt7469a prism gatech edu brian landmann writes joe torre has to be the worst manager in baseball for anyone who didn see sunday game with right hander pitching he decides to bench lankform left handed hitter and play jordan and gilkey both right handers later in the ninth inning with the bases loaded and two outs he puts lankford hitter with power in as pinch runner and uses luis alicea hitter with no power as pinch hitter what the hell is he thinking for your information lankford is injured think it is his shoulder or rib cage so he could not use him as pinch hitter earlier in the game in an interview about acquiring mark whiten he commented how fortunate the cardinals were to get whiten and that whiten would be regular even though this meant that gilkey would be hurt but torre said he liked gilkey coming off the bench gilkey hit over last year what does he have to do to start the guy would be starting on most every team in the league do believe that whiten was very good aquisition for the cards he does not have too much offensive capabilities but he is an awesome defensively since when have the cardnials actually thought of offense instead of defense forgot who st louis gave up for him but it was not too much as far as gilkey is concerned he is leftfielder and so is brian jordan who beat him out expect to see gilkey jordan platoon in lf furthermore in sundays game when lankford was thrown out at the plate the replay showed bucky dent the third base coach looking down the line and waving lankford home agree with you on this one as soon as larkin threw that ball knew that lankford was dead bird but how could dent have known that larkin would make perfect throw strongly believe that torre is one of the best managers in baseball don forget the overachieving cards of that won all those close games and went from last place to second place although they were oveshadowed by the braves twins last to first climb he won division title and barely lost pennant race when he was with the braves why atlanta ever even considered firing him will never understand with torre at the controls the cardinals are heading in the right direction one more thing one game does not make season yes they lost to the reds but with the second best pitching staff in the national league first in the east and pretty good offense the redbirds will win lot more than they lose maybe this is the year that they will go all the way charles very enthusiastic cardnials fan charles rosen thirty four to thirteen university of alabama national champs roll tide tuscaloosa al need say more path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net agate dog ee lbl gov network ucsd edu munnari oz au metro sunb ocs mq edu au macadam mpce mq edu au gerry from gerry macadam mpce mq edu au gerry myerson newsgroups rec sport baseball subject the bob dylan baseball abstract date apr gmt organization school of mpce macquarie university australia lines distribution world message id ql3nd gmh sunb ocs mq edu au nntp posting host macadam mpce mq edu au originator gerry macadam mpce mq edu au reposted without permission from rec music dylan in article apr9 uvaarpa virginia edu buck vax museum upenn edu wrote for those of you who like both bob and baseball check out the current village voice april john lammers and hart seely have written the bob dylan baseball abstract and they have covered every team in both leagues example colorado an the silent bats will shatter from the scores between the lines for they re one too many castoffs and thousand runs behind rebecca buck vax museum upenn edu gerry myerson path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu news psc edu boone from boone psc edu jon boone newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re why spanky date apr gmt organization pittsburgh supercomputing center pittsburgh pa usa lines message id ql93binn1s5 postoffice1 psc edu references apr12 mnemosyne cs du edu nntp posting host postoffice1 psc edu newsreader tin version pl8 on mon apr gmt in apr12 mnemosyne cs du edu greg spira gspira nyx cs du edu wrote does anybody in the pittsburgh area know why mike lavalliere was released last year kept saying that slaught should get the bulk of the playing time that he was clearly the better player at this point but leyland insisted on keeping pretty strict platoon and now he is released that doesn make any sense to me greg the story goes like this spanky is too slow if he were quicker he would still be here but with slaught and tom prince they didn want to lose prince in order to bring up that th pitcher slaught is about as good as spanky and prince is coming along nicely don feel too bad for him he still gonna get theat over the next two years he ll be able to do most of what he wants to do jon iain boone network systems administrator boone psc edu iain cmu edu pittsburgh supercomputing center don speak for anyone other than myself unless otherwise stated newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu news iastate edu dunix drake edu acad drake edu sbp002 from sbp002 acad drake edu subject re braves pitching updatedir message id apr15 acad drake edu lines sender news dunix drake edu usenet news system nntp posting host acad drake edu organization drake university des moines iowa usa references apr14 adobe com apr14 pts mot com apr15 acad drake edu apr15 adobe com date fri apr gmt not clear to me at all certainly rather have team who was winning games than games in the game luck is going to play much bigger role than in the game but you still need the pitching staff to hold the opposing team to one run sam sherri nichols snichols adobe com newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu news iastate edu dunix drake edu acad drake edu sbp002 from sbp002 acad drake edu subject re jewish baseball players message id apr15 acad drake edu lines sender news dunix drake edu usenet news system nntp posting host acad drake edu organization drake university des moines iowa usa references apr93 lafibm lafayette edu qkkodinn5f5 jhunix hcf jhu edu date fri apr gmt in article qkkodinn5f5 jhunix hcf jhu edu pablo jhunix hcf jhu edu pablo iglesias writes in article apr93 lafibm lafayette edu vb30 lafibm lafayette edu vb30 writes just wondering friend and were talking the other day and we were for some reason trying to come up with names of jewish baseball players past and present we weren able to come up with much except for sandy koufax somebody stankowitz and maybe john lowenstein can anyone come up with any more know it sounds pretty lame to be racking our brains over this but humor us thanks for your help thanks bobby hank greenberg would have to be the most famous because his jewish faith actually affected his play missing late season or was it world series games because of yom kippur thought that was sandy koufax sam pablo iglesias pi ruth ece jhu edu newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl netcomsv netcom com mss from mss netcom com mark singer subject re jose canseco swing vs message id mssc5k3zt fi1 netcom com organization netcom online communications services login guest references c5jkik zf ucdavis edu distribution na date fri apr gmt lines in article c5jkik zf ucdavis edu ez027993 dale ucdavis edu gary built like villanueva huckabay writes was going over some videos last night and you wrote an excellent report about it he bulked up too much period he needs to lose about pounds not gain more bulk his bat speed has absolutely vanished conservatively say he lost of his bat speed and that huge amount of speed that open stance is killing him note that he acts sort of like brian downing way open to start then closes up as ball is released downing could do this without significant head movement canseco can also note that canseco doesn always close his stance the same way sometimes his hips are open sometimes they re fully closed without good starting point it hard to make adjustments in your swing understand from an unreliable source that canseco was considered expendable by the when he refused to accept any coaching about his batting stance the brain trust came to believe that his back problems were exacerbated if not caused by having wide open stance closing it quickly and then swinging with lot of torque that paraphrase of what remember in any event canseco took the road that he and he alone would decide his stance and the began to believe that he would either reinjure himself or begin to lose his ability to hit for both average and power aside from salting away large sum of cash that could never touch so that never have to work again restructure my entire swing apparently you sound like larussa second drop pounds cut out the weight work the also objected about this if canseco open stance and resulting bad habits are result of his back problems he ll be out of baseball in three years if not he could still hit hr again just repeating something heard but possibly the cause and effect is the reverse of that the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec sport baseball soc culture jewish newsgroups rec sport baseball soc culture jewish path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net spool mu edu uunet mnemosyne cs du edu nyx gspira from gspira nyx cs du edu greg spira subject re jewish baseball players message id apr16 mnemosyne cs du edu sender usenet mnemosyne cs du edu netnews admin account organization university of denver dept of math comp sci references apr93 lafibm lafayette edu qkkodinn5f5 jhunix hcf jhu edu apr15 midway uchicago edu date fri apr gmt lines you can add steve rosenberg one time white sox reliever now in the mets system to the list greg path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester rutgers igor rutgers edu romulus rutgers edu moakler from moakler romulus rutgers edu bam newsgroups rec sport baseball subject the bob dylan baseball abstract message id apr romulus rutgers edu date apr gmt distribution na organization rutgers univ new brunswick lines just little something found while reading the village voice which is not noted for its sports coverage but occasionally the print some interesting features this year the predictions team analyses for the season were presented in the form of bob dylan lyrics don have the article in front of me so ll only give the memorable ones here that remember and know the melody to could dig up more if there is interest yankess to the tune of subterranean homesick blues howe is in the basement mixing up the medicine george is on the pavement thinking bout the government wade boggs in trench coat bat out paid off says he got bad back wants to get it laid off look out kids it somethin you did don know when but it columbus again mets to the tune of like rolling stone once upon time you played so fine you threw away dykstra before his prime didn you people said beware cone he bound to roam but you thought they were just kidding you you used to laugh about the strawberry that was headin out but now you don talk so loud now you don seem so proud about having to shop vince coleman for your next deal phillies to the tune of highway well daulton and dykstra should have some fun just keep them off of highway giants to the tune of the ballad of rubin hurricane carter this is the story of the magowan the man st petersburg came to pan for something that he never done he sit in the owner box but one day he could have the tampian of the world newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl netcomsv netcom com mss from mss netcom com mark singer subject re jewish baseball players message id mssc5k47z fur netcom com organization netcom online communications services login guest references apr93 lafibm lafayette edu netnews upenn edu date fri apr gmt lines in article apr93 lafibm lafayette edu vb30 lafibm lafayette edu vb30 writes it stankiewicz not stankowitz and he not jewish he polish by the way the correct pronunciation according to stanky himself is ston kev itch all the sportscasters get it wrong polish and jewish are not mutually exclusive mark singer mss netcom com newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel news udel edu darwin sura net news feed peachnet edu gatech howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl netcomsv netcom com mss from mss netcom com mark singer subject re pleasant yankee surprises message id mssc5k4gi g64 netcom com organization netcom online communications services login guest references netnews upenn edu apr15 alleg edu apr15 cs cornell edu date fri apr gmt lines in article apr15 cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes in article apr15 alleg edu luriem alleg edu michael lurie the liberalizer writes be willing to make two wagers snow doesn win roy mattingly is out of baseball within five years skeptical of the first because don think snow is that good player and he is on losing team don have history handy but don recall that the preponderance of roy come from winning teams in fact think team performance is generally irrelevant as almost always the most deserving candidate wins am wrong and he is not necessarily on losing team while the angels staff is still very weak their everyday lineup is doing quite well thank you snow is playing great salmon is learning to make the adjustments easley appears fine but even if he not flora is ready to come up between gonzales and gruber they ll manage the hot corner polonia and curtis are steady and heady even myers and orton are contributing personally think they can finish over which makes them winning team the beastmaster skeptical of the second because of his back mattingly is this year and how many players play until they are not too many and most of them didn have chronic back problems when they were could be wrong on either or both but think that the smart way to bet cheers valentine mark singer mss netcom com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net noc near net mozz unh edu kepler unh edu mtt from mtt kepler unh edu matthew thompson newsgroups rec sport baseball subject music censorship survey please fill out date apr gmt organization university of new hampshire durham nh lines message id qhph2 sk4 mozz unh edu references c5hna4 f7o cs uiuc edu nntp posting host kepler unh edu hello doing paper on censorship in music and would appreciate it if you took the time to participate in this survey please answer as each question asks why simply means that you have room to explain your answer if you chose the last question is for any comments questions or suggestions thank you in advance please mail to the address at the end are you male female ii what is your age iii what is your major occupation iv what type of music do you listen to check all that apply hard rock metal alternative blues rap jazz soft rock easy listening country classical hard core dance new age others did miss any do you think recordings with objectionable or offensive lyrics be labeled yes no why do you think certain recordings should be banned from minors under years of age yes no why do you think certain recordings should be banned period yes no why if yes to any of the above who should decide parents government music industry other feel free to add any comments on this do you think more less should be done for controling record sales or do you think the present labeling system is enough what is your definition of censorship also feel free to add comments suggestions questions or further explanations please mail at mtt kepler unh edu or hit to reply thanks matthew thompson disclaimer if any responses are used in paper they will be anoynamous sp unless the person specifies they what their name to be used this sig is closed for repairs ution matthew thompson rrrrrrr pound pound thud ouch duh mail at mtt kepler unh edu or shazam unh edu newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net usc sdd hp com think com mintaka lcs mit edu catfish lcs mit edu frankkim from frankkim catfish lcs mit edu frank kim subject erickson keith miller message id apr16 mintaka lcs mit edu sender news mintaka lcs mit edu organization mit laboratory for computer science date fri apr gmt lines hi was just wondering if anyone knew when erickson and keith miller are expected to come back and what exactly ails them sincerely frank kim newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net spool mu edu uunet decwrl netcomsv netcom com mss from mss netcom com mark singer subject re dave kingman for the hall of fame message id mssc5k4w5 gqe netcom com keywords hall of fame winfield kingman murray joe lundy organization netcom online communications services login guest references apr15 news yale edu apr199316413057 jhuvms hcf jhu edu distribution na date fri apr gmt lines no kingman fan just thought point out that he the only player in history to have five three hr games joe carter has four eddie murray three mccovey and gehrig also three ruth mays foxx and dawson two each don think reggie ws game counts else believe he would also have had two the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech concert duke news duke edu keynes econ duke edu fls from fls keynes econ duke edu forrest smith newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re braves pitching updatedir message id news duke edu date apr gmt references rvesterm vma cc nd edu apr14 acad drake edu apr14 ulkyvx louisville edu sender news news duke edu distribution usa organization duke university durham lines nntp posting host keynes econ duke edu in article apr14 ulkyvx louisville edu pjtier01 ulkyvx louisville edu writes if the braves continue to average runs game then is where they will finish tierney so if the braves run production falls to per game which is certainly where it headed if they re lucky does that mean they ll finish first econ duke edu fls econ duke edu fls econ duke edu fls econ duke to my correspondents my email has been changed my new address is fls econ duke edu if mail bounces try fls raphael acpub duke edu newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet mnemosyne cs du edu nyx gspira from gspira nyx cs du edu greg spira subject re sandberg runs rbis was re notes on jays vs indians series message id apr16 mnemosyne cs du edu sender usenet mnemosyne cs du edu netnews admin account organization university of denver dept of math comp sci references qfifdinndjt senator bedfellow mit edu c5hpcv hl andy bgsu edu c5jm0m jw cs dal ca c5jqby m7a news rich bnr ca distribution na date fri apr gmt lines bratt crchh7a9 nosubdomain nodomain john bratt writes rbis and runs scored are the two most important offensive statistics actually they re pretty worthless if you want to evaluate players with stats rbis and runs scored should be banned all they do is confuse victims of mediot brainwashing like yourself you can talk about obp and slg all you want but the fact remains the team that scores more runs wins the game uh so you ve just explained why we use obp and slg to evaluate players precisely because the team that scores more runs wins the game traditional baseball stats have gotten way too far away from methods which enable fans to see who contributes to those runs scored that where obp slg runs created linear weights etc come in these simplify matters so that we can more easily measure player offensive contribution to the team runs scored thank you for making our case have nice day greg path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net uvaarpa gems vcu edu cabell vcu edu csc2imd newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re wfan message id apr16 cabell vcu edu from csc2imd cabell vcu edu ian derby date fri apr gmt expires sat may gmt references apr15 virginia edu c5jc3z knd news udel edu apr16 news yale edu organization virginia commonwealth university lines no he not nuts wip is second to none the sports station they don have tony bruno working espn radio and al morganti doing friday night hockey because they suck live in richmond va but visit phila often and on the way get wtem washington and wip hear the fan at night wherever go the signal used to be wnbc when they played golden oldies because you can avoid it of those three wip has the best hosts hands down chuck cooperstein isn homer and neither is jody mac wtem is too generic to be placed in the catergory in fact if you have heard wtem and the fan you notice the theme music is identical same ownership think so wip is totally original their hosts actually have personality this is knock at tem the team not the fan because mike and the mad dog and sommers are good mean comparing the morning guys in philadelphia to the ones in washington is total joke anyway like the fan and wip but think the edge goes to ip when get back from philly go into withdraw cause richmond has nada except the national sports line and those guys are totally clueless was really mad when wcau was cancelled because they had steve fredericks doing sports phone after the phillies games wcau is another strong station now it an oldies station but they still have the phillies started listening to the fan because heard he went there finally heard him last summer and he wasn the same guy those ny fans got to him was glad to hear him back in philly when went to see few eagles games will admit am die hard eagles fan and wip is basically an eagles station days year but bet you the phillies are in control right now about the knock on cobb like him he knows the eagles like book remember the weekend before they went to play san fran when everyone thought the eagles would be blown away cobb said that the eagles usually play their best when no one believe they can win well they were inches shy of pulling the victory well that my path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net uvaarpa gems vcu edu cabell vcu edu csc2imd newsgroups rec sport baseball subject best sportwriters message id apr16 cabell vcu edu from csc2imd cabell vcu edu ian derby date fri apr gmt expires sat may gmt organization virginia commonwealth university keywords sportswriters summary sportswriters lines since someone brought up sports radio howabout sportswriting anyone give an opinion which city do you think has the best sports coverage in terms of print media these are general questions is the washington post better than the philadelphia inquier or the ny times howabout the philadelphia daily news compared to the new york daily news do you notice papers being subjective or objective to the home team newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet mnemosyne cs du edu nyx gspira from gspira nyx cs du edu greg spira subject re notes on jays vs indians series message id apr16 mnemosyne cs du edu sender usenet mnemosyne cs du edu netnews admin account organization university of denver dept of math comp sci references apr13 csd newshost stanford edu rudyc5fxc8 deu netcom com apr14 csd newshost stanford edu apr15 island com distribution na date fri apr gmt lines something else to consider alomar splits were slg obp baerga was and pretty clearly alomar got huge boost from his home park not necessarily it could mean that or it could mean that he just hit lot better at home than he did on the road see frank thomas home road splits in for an example would guess that some of alomar split is due to the skydome but most of it is probably due just to coincidence there no way to be sure of course but the only hitters the skydome seems to regularly help lot are right handed home run hitters and alomar is not home run hitter say you could make good for them being about equal right now rated baerga higher actually only because of bogus fielding stats which rate alomar as the worst defensive second baseman in the league on career basis think fielding stats may mean something but on seasonal basis it comes up with ridiculous results like this alomar may not be the god of fielding the media says he is but he sure isn the worst in baseball offensively rate alomar much higher last year regarding the vs argument ll just say they re both very good players with different strengths and bright future greg newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net bogus sura net darwin sura net aplcen apl jhu edu news from jmhodapp aplcomm jhuapl edu subject re all time best players message id apr15 aplcen apl jhu edu sender news aplcen apl jhu edu usenet news system organization master peon references apr13 bsu ucs apr199309554277 ariel lerc nasa gov apr14 princeton edu date thu apr gmt lines in article apr14 princeton edu roger crux princeton edu roger lustig writes in article apr13 bsu ucs mbstultz leo bsuvc bsu edu writes ve recently been working on project to determine the greatest players at their respective postions career what about johnny hodapp the greatest nd baseman in cleveland indians history hits in consistantly over great great second baseman jon johnny hodapp jmhodapp aplcomm jhuapl edu newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu news cso uiuc edu ux4 cso uiuc edu rkoffler from rkoffler ux4 cso uiuc edu bighelmet subject re best sportwriters date fri apr gmt message id c5k7nk tv news cso uiuc edu references apr16 cabell vcu edu sender usenet news cso uiuc edu net noise owner keywords sportswriters organization university of illinois at urbana lines csc2imd cabell vcu edu ian derby writes since someone brought up sports radio howabout sportswriting happen to be big fan of jayson stark he is baseball writer for the philadelphia inquirer every tuesday he writes week in review column he writes about unusual situations that occured during the week unusual stats he has section called kinerisms of the week which are stupid lines by mets brodcaster ralph kiner every year he has the lgtgah contest that stands for last guy to get hit he also writes for baseball america that column is sort of highlights of week in review if you can check his column out sometime he might make you laugh rob koffler you live day to day and rkoffler ux4 cso uiuc edu dream about tomorrow don henley newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell tedward from tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer subject re pleasant yankee surprises message id apr16 cs cornell edu organization cornell univ cs dept ithaca ny references apr15 alleg edu apr15 cs cornell edu mssc5k4gi g64 netcom com date fri apr gmt lines in article mssc5k4gi g64 netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes don have history handy but don recall that the preponderance of roy come from winning teams in fact think team performance is generally irrelevant as almost always the most deserving candidate wins am wrong not really though wouldn personally say the most deserving candidate wins rarely does player win roy when called up in mid season and there have been several duds in recent years but this is more factor of mediot biases than anything else wonder if amaral hits like he is capable of will he receive roty votes he only he could have long career ahead of him and he is not necessarily on losing team while the angels staff is still very weak their everyday lineup is doing quite well thank you snow is playing great salmon is learning to make the adjustments easley appears fine but even if he not flora is ready to come up between gonzales and gruber they ll manage the hot corner polonia and curtis are steady and heady even myers and orton are contributing personally think they can finish over which makes them winning team think they are second division team they should finish ahead of the royals mariners and possibly athletics but don think they ll be above think the east is stronger this year last year their pitching was bad and their offense was horrible this year their offense is better but their pitching is still pretty bad even if finley returns to form he won replace what they lost in abbott sanderson farrell don believe it and while their ba may be good and they have decent speed their offense lacks punch they don have any bona fide power hitters salmon snow davis and curtis none with more than hr potential cheers valentine which al team had the most steals last week those go go tigers the mediots finally managed to convince them that they needed more balance in their lineup you see they were scoring too many runs too consistently gotta run more to break that up path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net uunet mozz unh edu kepler unh edu mtt from mtt kepler unh edu matthew thompson newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re survey date apr gmt organization university of new hampshire durham nh lines message id qleaa i4d mozz unh edu nntp posting host kepler unh edu keywords survey complaints yes know this is not rec music as someone has already pointed out thanks know that trying to get random sample and also desperate for respones so please don mail me complaining that it doesn belong here or that it is wasting bandwidth this affects everybody not just readers of music groups please either complete the survey or hit because ll just bounce back complaints thank you matt matthew thompson electrical computer engineering etallic university of new hampshire mail mtt kepler unh edu or my evil twin at shazam unh edu newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu pellns alleg edu news from luriem alleg edu michael lurie the liberalizer subject re jewish baseball players message id apr16 alleg edu sender news alleg edu organization allegheny college references apr15 acad drake edu date fri apr gmt in article apr15 acad drake edu sbp002 acad drake edu writes remember reading somewhere that of the league was jewish during the now there is practically nobody newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu pellns alleg edu news from luriem alleg edu michael lurie the liberalizer subject think am going to cry again yankees lose it again message id apr16 alleg edu sender news alleg edu organization allegheny college date fri apr gmt can believe this howe has an era in the he is improving key pitches great game and they screw it up again newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu pellns alleg edu news from luriem alleg edu michael lurie the liberalizer subject re jewish baseball players message id apr16 alleg edu sender news alleg edu organization allegheny college references c5jsxs m0 unix amherst edu date fri apr gmt in article c5jsxs m0 unix amherst edu jlroffma unix amherst edu joshua lawrence roffman writes baseball players past and present we weren able to come up with much except for sandy koufax somebody stankowitz and maybe john lowenstein can anyone come up with any more know it sounds pretty lame to be racking our brains over this but humor us thanks for your help john lowenstein is definately not jewish many in baltimore thought he was especially after he told the baltimore jewish times so but later he admitted that it was joke stanky is not jewish at least doubt it lot of jewish people don have jewish names newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu pellns alleg edu news from luriem alleg edu michael lurie the liberalizer subject re pleasant yankee surprises message id apr16 alleg edu sender news alleg edu organization allegheny college references apr15 cs cornell edu date fri apr gmt in article apr15 cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes in article apr15 alleg edu luriem alleg edu michael lurie the liberalizer writes actually kind of liked the abott trade we did trade the rookie of the year snow but with don mattingly at first for another years why bother be willing to make two wagers snow doesn win roy mattingly is out of baseball within five years no you are quite correct but was using some wishful thinking jt snow was wasting away while abbott can provide great resourse for the team newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu pellns alleg edu news from luriem alleg edu michael lurie the liberalizer subject re jewish baseball players message id apr16 alleg edu sender news alleg edu organization allegheny college references qkkodinn5f5 jhunix hcf jhu edu date fri apr gmt in article qkkodinn5f5 jhunix hcf jhu edu pablo jhunix hcf jhu edu pablo iglesias writes in article apr93 lafibm lafayette edu vb30 lafibm lafayette edu vb30 writes hank greenberg would have to be the most famous because his jewish faith actually affected his play missing late season or was it world series games because of yom kippur kofax missed world series game because of the jewish day of repentence path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet olivea charnel rat zeus cymbal calpoly edu jplee from jplee cymbal calpoly edu jason lee newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re ryan out for weeks message id apr16 zeus calpoly edu date apr gmt references apr15 news uta edu sender news zeus calpoly edu organization california polytechnic state university san luis obispo lines and then cs1442aq news uta edu cs1442aq quoth nolan ryan has torn cartlidge inhis right knee is having surgery and is expected to miss weeks that too bad really had hoped nolan could end his career with great year suppose there is still hope jason lee jplee oboe calpoly edu jlee cash busfac calpoly edu giants pi the most beautiful equation in mathematics magic for all sad words of tongue and pen the saddest are these number it might have been john greenleaf whittier path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech prism gt0523e from gt0523e prism gatech edu michael andre mule newsgroups rec sport baseball subject braves offensive offense message id hydra gatech edu date apr gmt distribution usa organization georgia institute of technology lines deion sanders hit home run in his only ab today nixon was for infield single deion batting over nixon around whom would you start wise up bobby see all at the ballyard go braves chop chop michael mule michael andre mule georgia institute of technology atlanta georgia uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism gt0523e internet gt0523e prism gatech edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu menudo uh edu ccsvax sfasu edu millerwl from millerwl ccsvax sfasu edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject astros for real message id apr15 ccsvax sfasu edu date apr cst organization stephen austin state university lines who thinks the astros are going places they re currently first place they re on the road path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net bogus sura net darwin sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu csus edu netcom com netcomsv grumpy symantec com symantec com cjkuo from cjkuo symantec com jimmy kuo newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re cubs expos roster questions date apr gmt organization symantec peter norton group lines message id cjkuo symantec com references apr15 vmsb is csupomona edu b0f0 c5de05a0 msu oscs montana edu nntp posting host alird msu oscs montana edu writes today cubs activated mike harkey from dl whom did they move to make room for harkey shawn boskie newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net spool mu edu decwrl adobe snichols from snichols adobe com sherri nichols subject re let talk phillies message id apr16 adobe com sender usenet adobe com usenet news organization adobe systems incorporated references apr15 ns1 cc lehigh edu apr15 leland stanford edu date fri apr gmt lines in article apr15 leland stanford edu eechen leland stanford edu emery ethan chen writes one phrase for you fuck you thanks perhaps it time to start rec sport baseball graffiti where the kiddies can go yell taunts and insults at each other and leave the rest of us in peace sherri nichols snichols adobe com newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl adobe snichols from snichols adobe com sherri nichols subject re braves pitching updatedir message id apr16 adobe com sender usenet adobe com usenet news organization adobe systems incorporated references apr15 acad drake edu apr15 adobe com apr15 acad drake edu date fri apr gmt lines in article apr15 acad drake edu sbp002 acad drake edu writes not clear to me at all certainly rather have team who was winning games than games in the game luck is going to play much bigger role than in the game but you still need the pitching staff to hold the opposing team to one run yeah but what your point you still need the offense to score more runs than you allow too the braves do have fine pitching staff but that still only half the game sherri nichols snichols adobe com newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl adobe snichols from snichols adobe com sherri nichols subject re why spanky message id apr16 adobe com sender usenet adobe com usenet news organization adobe systems incorporated references apr12 mnemosyne cs du edu ql93binn1s5 postoffice1 psc edu date fri apr gmt lines in article ql93binn1s5 postoffice1 psc edu boone psc edu jon boone writes spanky is too slow if he were quicker he would still be here but with slaught and tom prince they didn want to lose prince in order to bring up that th pitcher slaught is about as good as spanky and prince is coming along nicely tom prince is year old no hit catcher think of him as young dann bilardello can begin to fathom why the pirates have been so afraid of losing this guy who been in aaa most of the last seasons the pirates released kirk gibson last year because prince was out of options then eventually sent prince down anyway and he cleared waivers without peep he another year older and still can hit why do they think he wouldn clear waivers now why would they care sherri nichols snichols adobe com newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net usc rpi scott skidmore edu jrogoff from jrogoff scott skidmore edu jay rogoff subject re new home for the bosox message id apr15 scott skidmore edu organization skidmore college saratoga springs ny references qh3pu gh transfer stratus com date thu apr gmt lines agree though also be happy with stadium that looks like new comiskey the new park was also made for baseball unlike three rivers the vet riverfront etc it not football park in which they also play baseball while we re on the multipurpose subject let not forget shea which was designed to accommodate both the mets jets it was the first stadium think to have the box seats on rollers so they could be oriented at right angles for baseball in parallel for football of course with the jets gone to jersey and truly good football stadium the mets are saddled with multipurpose stadium where because it circular the seats are almost always too far from the action the mets announcers kiner murphy in particular have always hyped it as beautiful shea stadium tipoff to how unbeautiful it truly is jay newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu rpi scott skidmore edu jrogoff from jrogoff scott skidmore edu jay rogoff subject re orioles trivia message id apr15 scott skidmore edu organization skidmore college saratoga springs ny references apr13 msus1 msus edu date thu apr gmt lines bunker mcnally were later pappas estrada steve barber and jay newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester news crd ge com uunet elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl netcomsv netcom com mss from mss netcom com mark singer subject darrrrrrrrryl message id mssc5kcru ip netcom com organization netcom online communications services login guest references apr15 acad drake edu apr16 alleg edu date fri apr gmt lines the media is beating the incident at dodger stadium on wednesday to death but haven seen anything in rsb yet gerald perry of the cardinals pinch hit in the eighth inning with two on and his club down by run he stroked line drive into the right field corner the ball cleared the three foot high fence and went into the crowd darryl racing over from right center got to the spot in time to reach his glove up over the short fence but he missed the ball fan sitting in the front row wearing mitt reached up and caught the ball home run now ve seen the replay several times and have concluded that darryl missed the ball and that the fan glove was essentially behind darryl several dodger fans with seats in the immediate vicinity have claimed that the fan unquestionably interfered with strawberry what cannot be disputed however is that the fan who caught the ball never took his eye off it he was oblivious to where the fielder was playing he was also quite exuberant as soon as he realized he had made the catch that exuberance disappeared immediately however when strawberry went into tirade at the man all reports indicate he used lot of profanity and accused the man of interference and therefore of costing the dodgers game shortly afterwards other fans hurled food and beverages toward the man who made the catch dodger stadium officials started to remove him from the park but then relented and just relocated him to another area in an interview after the game lasorda blamed the fan for the loss strawberry also went into tirade about how the fans are stupid and they don care about winning times columnists similarly blasted the man who made the catch before each dodger game the public address announcer makes speech wherein he says that fans are welcome to the souvenirs of balls that are hit into the stands as long as they do not interfere with any that are in the field of play was the fan wrong should he have been more aware of the situation and acted to avoid any possibility of interference or was he human and just reacting by the way he is season ticket holder and on his request the dodgers have relocated his seats to another area of the stadium where future interference is impossible others have questioned why darryl should be so concerned with what the fan did when he has grand total of rbi through the first nine games question what he was doing in right center with left handed pull hitter up and the game on the line had he been closer to the play he certainly would have had much better chance of catching the ball but guess the big debate continues as to what are the responsibilities of the fan the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester news crd ge com uunet usc usc not for mail from pcaster mizar usc edu dodger newsgroups rec sport baseball subject gross grosses out dodger fans again date apr organization university of southern california los angeles ca lines sender nntp mizar usc edu message id qll47innlr3 mizar usc edu nntp posting host mizar usc edu went to the dodgers game tonight it was cap night astacio pitched ok but had control trouble all night in the first he walked batter balked him to second then single scored the run with the batter taking second on the throw home another single made the score cards lasorda tried new line up featuring butler reed and piazza batting third darryl and eric were benched in favor of snyder and webster piazza homered in the first to make the score cards the dodgers tied the game in the second on two out single by offerman by the fourth inning astacio had already made about pitches but the score was still the dodger defense made several impressive plays piazza looked great behind the plate gunning down runner trying to steal second throwing runner out at first who had strayed bit from first base etc karros also made spectacular play keeping ball from going into the outfield the runner on first was so sure that ball was going through he just kept running past second karros got up and threw to third and easily got the runner at third my heart sank in the th when gross got up to warm up in the bullpen astacio was lifted for pinch hitter and when gross entered the game with the score still dodger fans just knew it was over gross was relieving because he stunk on tuesday pitching just innings forcing lasorda to use much of his bullpen the inning game had the same effect the next night so only gross was fresh given his light work out tuesday gross lived up to his name he walked the first batter gave up hit to the second and walked the bases loaded after grounder resulted in force at home zeile lifted scoring fly ball to make it cards gross paid little attention to the runners and the next thing you knew the cards had stolen fourth run the runner on first was eventually tagged out in the run down but the th run had scored long before that meanwhile the dodgers mounted little offense after the second inning lee smith pitched the ninth he had little trouble getting karros and wallach does anyone have trouble with wallach these days cory snyder collected his first hit as dodger single but that was all the offense the dodgers could mount smith got his third straight save against the dodgers and all got was my free dodger cap and good look at piazza if piazza keeps this up all year he will be strong candidate for rookie of the year honors though its really early karros is already showing signs of sophomore jinx year the final score cardinals runs on hits dodgers runs on hits dodger path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu usenet coe montana edu news washington edu stein washington edu anderge from anderge stein washington edu geoff anderson newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re fenway gif date apr gmt organization university of washington seattle lines message id qll92innhq5 shelley washington edu references c5jb3d nt umassd edu nntp posting host stein washington edu in article c5jb3d nt umassd edu acsddc smucs1 umassd edu writes was wondering if anyone had any kind of fenway park gif would appreciate it if someone could send me one thanks in advance dan me too would like any park or action gif or jpeg about baseball geoff newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet utcsri utmath joel from joel math toronto edu joel chan subject game score report message id apr16 math toronto edu sender joel math toronto edu joel chan organization department of mathematics university of toronto date fri apr gmt lines just out of curiosity what happened to the weekly al and nl game score reports used to enjoy reading them throughout the summer for the last two years inquisitively yours joel joel chan joel math toronto edu dept of mathematics university of toronto toronto blue jays world series champs history those who ignore it are condemned to repeat it math too from the comic strip betty newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net spool mu edu torn newshost uwo ca sscl uwo ca ec400 from ec400 sscl uwo ca subject jays game organization social science computing laboratory date fri apr gmt message id ec400 sscl uwo ca keywords score sender news julian uwo ca usenet news system nntp posting host conslt sscl uwo ca lines anyone know the outcome of tonight jays game home runs winning pitcher eco gods at path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net usc aludra usc edu not for mail from sheehan aludra usc edu joseph sheehan newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re young catchers date apr organization university of southern california los angeles ca lines sender joe sheehan message id qlnkninn2sh aludra usc edu references mssc50dfw netcom com blue cis pitt edu mssc50p03 cpg netcom com nntp posting host aludra usc edu summary lopez is better than current brave catchers keywords solid good in article mssc50qa5 dtv netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes in article apr5 cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes still catching up from spring break but bear with me in the bigs especially when they haven even played aaa ball we certainly believe this kid is going to be very good some day but there is really no need to rush him especially since we have mega million dollar staff that is probably well served by battery mate who is expereienced in game calling and pitcher handling lopez time will come let give him some time in aaa javy lopez has proven over ab in the minor leagues that he is ready to play in the majors he is not being rushed players who are clearly too good for aa and play behind stiffs at the major league level are wasting their time and may actually have court case against major league management for keeping them at aaa no maybe need to improve my writing skills lopez who is very ordinary defensively is not likely to hit so well at age unless lopez is me defensively and born to play second base he belongs in the major leagues training what does he have to do to earn chance maybe not full time job but at least couple starts and few ab for him to prove his worth gee don know abs sounds pretty good to me about as good as your reasoning that the kid should play back up role rather than start every day at aaa talk about me as gm valentine isn saying he should back up he saying he should be put in position to win the job in the major leagues which imho he would if given the opportunity val if misinterpreting please let me know so far you have come up with two arguments against lopez he is very ordinary defensively he is young and most players suck when they are young the first is irrelevant he trying to make the majors with his bat and the second involves seriously warped reasoning valentine ok most players are not ready for the bigs at age see current related posting on clayton one of my favorites most players benefit rather than being stagnant or hurt by playing at aaa most catchers need to be solid defensively players to help their clubs in the bigs those are the arguments against lopez for the braves for this year but the players who are ready are the best and the ones most likely to benefit from being in the majors javy lopez is not middle of the road prospect he the real thing now again the most important thing player can do is hit lopez does that miles better than olson or berryhill if his defense is good enough for greenville or richmond it good enough for atlanta if he really was awful defensively he would no longer be catcher see sprague ed now the braves have two catchers who have demonstrated solid abilities to call games to work with the pitchers to throw out runners not superstars mind you but solid experienced veterans the braves have very solid lineup with two big bats in the outfield an excellent platoon at first solid mvp candidate at third and one of the better hitting shortstops the center field platoon will probably hit however good lopez what they have to offset the differential in experience and defensive ability the kid will improve playing at aaa and he probably won being reserve with the big club oh where to start ok first of all solid good want good players solid is one of those words used to describe nice white guys who really aren very good at baseball think of it as twg without the caps it losing strategy to say we have solid guys we don need to improve you used it four times in that paragraph btw same for experienced might add though that greg olson and damon berryhill aren exactly carter and fisk olson has played three years berryhill five although and were wash the only difference imho between olson and valle is the supporting cast two big bats hrm like justice but find mr gant trend disturbing call it one and maybe the braves platoon is ok but neither player has any value outside of the platoon bream vs lh and hunter vs rh are awful ll leave the thirdbase comment alone pendleton has wasted too much bandwidth already if the cf platoon hits ll retrace mr likhani midnight run down forbes and live in ny and la got that mike and doesn cox call pitches anyway goodness do you believe the other poster who thinks lopez is being held down because of his future earning potential why on earth do you people thinkthe braves made this decision are they idiots who have built this ballclub jeeeesh nope they re baseball management possible the most short sighted collection of people in the nation do you not believe this goes on mark do you think frank thomas needed those three months in aaa in or cal eldred wasn really better than ricky bones last year and the treasure you re mostly polite make defensible if flawed cases have wit and have in the past admitted being wrong that does qualify you on we ll make an sdcn out of you yet the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com sheehan aludra usc edu greg gohr pitching more like voice tipper gore afraid linda cohn sportscenter newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net news cs brandeis edu st902415 pip cc brandeis edu from st902415 pip cc brandeis edu adam levin subject re best sportwriters message id apr16 news cs brandeis edu sender news news cs brandeis edu usenet news system reply to st902415 pip cc brandeis edu organization brandeis university references apr16 cabell vcu edu c5k7nk tv news cso uiuc edu date fri apr gmt lines in article c5k7nk tv news cso uiuc edu rkoffler ux4 cso uiuc edu bighelmet writes csc2imd cabell vcu edu ian derby writes since someone brought up sports radio howabout sportswriting happen to be big fan of jayson stark he is baseball writer for the philadelphia inquirer every tuesday he writes week in review column he writes about unusual situations that occured during the week unusual stats he has section called kinerisms of the week which are stupid lines by mets brodcaster ralph kiner every year he has the lgtgah contest that stands for last guy to get hit he also writes for baseball america that column is sort of highlights of week in review if you can check his column out sometime he might make you laugh might you have to have no sense of humor at all not to my favorite stuff are the zero heros players who haven hit homers in long time the lgtgah who is that named after can remember and the box score line of the week incidentally just found out that the column has been moved to sundays get my dad to send it to me up here in boston every week great stuff adam phaithful phillies phan levin newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu cs uiuc edu pegasus cs uiuc edu steph from steph pegasus cs uiuc edu dale stephenson subject re phils nl east not so weak message id steph pegasus cs uiuc edu sender news cs uiuc edu organization university of illinois dept of comp sci urbana il references apr15 guvax acc georgetown edu date fri apr gmt lines in apr15 guvax acc georgetown edu apanjabi guvax acc georgetown edu writes braves hit like aaa club shouldn this read braves hitters are at the aaa club dale stephenson steph cs uiuc edu baseball fanatic it is considered good to look wise especially when not overburdened with information golden kimball newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net uunet mcsun sun4nl freya let rug nl pco204a let rug nl binkley from binkley let rug nl binkley subject re jewish baseball players message id binkley let rug nl lines sender news let rug nl news manager nntp posting host pco204a let rug nl organization faculteit der letteren rijksuniversiteit groningen nl references qkkodinn5f5 jhunix hcf jhu edu apr16 alleg edu date fri apr gmt there was an article on jewish major leaguers in recent issue of elysian fields what used to be the minnesota review of baseball as recall it had an amazing amount of research with long list of players and large bibliography peter binkley binkley let rug nl newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net noc near net news cs brandeis edu st902415 pip cc brandeis edu from st902415 pip cc brandeis edu adam levin subject early bbddd returns message id apr16 news cs brandeis edu sender news news cs brandeis edu usenet news system reply to st902415 pip cc brandeis edu organization brandeis university date fri apr gmt lines just curious if anyone has started to standout early in the season in the bb ddd this year expect the phillies staff while getting the wins would have to rank up there luis gonzalez and derrick may are among the early league leaders and all of their bombs have come at the phils expense neither of them have exactly been know for their tater prowess in the past how have the rockies been early know mile high has produced ton of runs but is it the launching pad everyone expected yet concerned fan of the bb ddd adam witness to the phillies lone loss of the season so far levin path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net spool mu edu olivea gossip pyramid com pyramid infmx moose randall from randall informix com randall rhea newsgroups rec sport baseball subject royals message id randall moose date apr gmt sender news informix com usenet news organization informix software inc lines the royals are darkness they are the void of our time when they play shame descends upon the land like cold front from canada they are humiliation to all who have lived and all who shall ever live they are utterly and completely doomed other than that guess they re ok randall rhea informix software inc project manager mis sales marketing systems uunet pyramid infmx randall path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net spool mu edu uwm edu ogicse flop engr orst edu gaia ucs orst edu connected com eskimo crichar from crichar eskimo com craig richardson newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re notes on jays vs indians series message id c5jck0 dea eskimo com date apr gmt article eskimo c5jck0 dea references c5ep70 irh andy bgsu edu rudyc5fr3q cl netcom com apr13 cs cornell edu apr15 webo dg com distribution na organization eskimo north eskimo com lines in article apr15 webo dg com lyford dagny webo dg com lyford beverage writes in article apr13 cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes in article rudyc5fr3q cl netcom com rudy netcom com rudy wade writes in article c5fmxd pm cs dal ca niguma ug cs dal ca gord niguma writes he probably didn even have as good season as alomar last year snip uh yes baerga has lot of flash but alomar was the better hitter last year stats deleted we ve all seen them by now this is fascinating you say that alomar was the better hitter last year and immediately follow that up with numbers showing that baerga had better year the only category that see which shows an advantage for alomar is obp nominate this last bit for anti stathead quote of the week alomar only has point advantage in the most important offensive category while baerga who studied in the joe carter school of out burning has more impressive mediot stats largely due to opportunities rather than quality the lines are fairly close in value but edge to alomar now baerga ain chopped liver but alomar is still the man to beat among al second basemen craig craig richardson crichar eskimo com formerly eskimo celestial com gm pullman sleepers obfbl gm seattle rainiers ifl gm manager tacoma black adders ibl gm new jack city highlanders kl tacoma black adders growing excited team the future begins tomorrow path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net dtix dt navy mil oasys kday from kday oasys dt navy mil kevin day newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re lots of runs message id oasys dt navy mil date apr gmt references bb11286a crosen1 ua1vm ua edu reply to kday oasys dt navy mil kevin day organization carderock division nswc bethesda md lines in rec sport baseball crosen1 ua1vm ua edu charles rosen writes have noticed that this year has had lot of high scoring games at least the nl has believe one reason are the expansion teams any thoughts except for the fact that there seems to be lot of high scoring al games also and don think the expansion teams directly affect them scott day kday oasys dt navy mil carderock division naval surface warfare center code bethesda maryland the point to remember is that what the government gives it must first take away john coleman newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu darwin sura net udel news intercon com psinntp bnlux1 bnl gov kyee from kyee bnlux1 bnl gov kenton yee subject proposed catcher re sub rule message id apr16 bnlux1 bnl gov organization brookhaven national laboratory upton ny date fri apr gmt lines lot of teams carry catchers on their man roster but the rd catcher is seldom ever used he is only insurance in case of extra innings or the nd catcher is injured during game so to free up this roster spot for an extra pinch hitter or reliever why not invoke catcher re substitution rule if the last roster catcher on team is injured during game the team is permitted to substitute in his place for defensive purposes catcher who has previously been yanked from the game given this rule team wouldn need roster catchers the rd catcher could be playing in aaa or be non roster bullpen catcher ken newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu darwin sura net cc gatech edu terminus hoyt from hoyt terminus gatech edu kurt hoyt subject re braves giants message id hoyt cc gatech edu sender news cc gatech edu organization georgia tech college of computing references qu6ivinneg3 mephisto gatech edu date tue apr gmt lines tmiller cimmeria gatech edu thomas miller writes does anyone else think that this weekend four game series was really strange one yes it was the strangest series have ever watched and the ending fit perfectly kurt in atlanta hoyt cc gatech edu kwh salestech com compuserve com politics from the greek poli many tics ugly blood sucking parasites newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu ux1 cso uiuc edu news cso uiuc edu uxa cso uiuc edu vpg41274 from vpg41274 uxa cso uiuc edu vincent paul guthrie subject re mlb nba date tue apr gmt message id c5sb11 ul news cso uiuc edu references apr17 news yale edu rvesterm vma cc nd edu mssc5qrrz netcom com rvesterm vma cc nd edu sender usenet news cso uiuc edu net noise owner organization university of illinois at urbana lines rvesterm vma cc nd edu writes in article mssc5qrrz netcom com mss netcom com mark singer says in article rvesterm vma cc nd edu rvesterm vma cc nd edu writes so you want to decrease players salaries so you want to increase owners salaries the two are equivalent bob vesterman only if you insist that the ticket prices cannot be adjusted downward or the taxes for the revenues to build the ballparks or the parking charges or the concession costs etc why would owners decrease ticket prices when they obviously get lots of people to pay the price they re asking even assuming that you have some strange power to make the owners decrease ticket prices that does not decrease the tv contract bob vesterman so what will happen when the tv contract runs out considering networks have been losing money on it either ticket prices will go up or someones salary will be cut or perhaps the local community or merchindise could make up the difference baseball is probably facing dramatic drop in income very soon and someone will suffer probably the fans from higher ticket prices but definitely someone newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet pipex uknet warwick str ccsun str va clgs11 from clgs11 vaxa strath ac uk subject jack morris message id apr20 vaxa strath ac uk lines sender news ccsun strath ac uk news account nntp posting host vaxa organization strathclyde university vax cluster date tue apr gmt hey guys who is this jack morris fella only joking but try to lighten up will ya the season only just started and everyone apoplectic if all you statheads out there are trying to justify how morris is doing at the moment just remember that we re talking about very small sample size there is helluva long way to go so sit back and enjoy the ride tony path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net gatech gatech news from tmiller cimmeria gatech edu thomas miller newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re braves giants date apr gmt organization georgia institute of technology lines message id r11pfinnn5s mephisto gatech edu references hpspdla spd hp com nntp posting host cimmeria gatech edu in article hpspdla spd hp com garyr hpspdla spd hp com gary rosen writes thomas miller am apr does anyone else think that this weekend four game series was really strange one yeah it was real strange if you think the braves should be awarded the nl west title without actually having to play the games gary rosen didn say that did you say that wow can believe that anyone would think that the braves or any other team for that matter should get the title for free what dolt that person would be if that was what they thought incredible thomas miller tmiller cimmeria gatech edu systems support specialist ii georgia tech network services and looked and behold pale horse and his name that sat on him was death and hell followed with him newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu darwin sura net cc gatech edu terminus hoyt from hoyt terminus gatech edu kurt hoyt subject re hunter on dl klesko up message id hoyt cc gatech edu sender news cc gatech edu organization georgia tech college of computing references news duke edu steph pegasus cs uiuc edu date tue apr gmt lines steph pegasus cs uiuc edu dale stephenson writes in news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes as touter of braves prospects all can say is that imo someone on the braves roster is about to become pipped it may not even be hunter but think they ll have problem getting klesko out of the lineup once he in well this may be good news if klesko hits look for bream to be traded if possible or released since bream is also lefthander hope klesko hits according to the atlanta paper bream will be the full time first baseman with klesko used as late inning defensive replacement if bream is lifted for pinch runner he have to hit homer in his first ab or win the game or do some other amazing thing to be rewarded with start so he could even attempt to push hunter or bream out of the lineup kurt in atlanta hoyt cc gatech edu kwh salestech com compuserve com politics from the greek poli many tics ugly blood sucking parasites newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net noc near net black clarku edu vax clarku edu hhenderson from hhenderson vax clarku edu subject re game length was re braves update message id apr93 vax clarku edu sender news black clarku edu usenet news system organization clark university references apr17 ulkyvx louisville edu news duke edu apr19 adobe com apr20 wvnvms wvnet edu date apr gmt lines nflynn wvnvms wvnet edu writes however what is with this policy of trying to speed up the games you are the first person non mediot have seen endorse this policy have no problem with the length of games at all and am tired of the espn crowd and other announcers bitching about it have never been in ballpark filled with people looking at their watches and shouting hurry up if cough up big bucks for ticket don mind game that last more than really don understand it agree with nick what the big deal about long games if you want to watch baseball there that much more baseball to watch and yes baseball includes the space between plays as well as the plays themselves suspect that lot of the complaining about long games especially when it coming from tv people has to something to do with advertising probably time wasted in the middle of an inning say by batter stepping out of the box to fiddle with his gloves or by pitcher walking around behind the mound trying to collect his thoughts could otherwise be sold as advertising time heather hhenderson vax clarku edu newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu darwin sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu milli thornley from thornley milli cs umn edu david thornley subject re jack morris message id c5sefu mg1 news cis umn edu sender news news cis umn edu usenet news administration nntp posting host milli cs umn edu organization university of minnesota minneapolis csci dept references apr19 ramsey cs laurentian ca mjones fenway apr20 ramsey cs laurentian ca date tue apr gmt lines in article apr20 ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes not at all am talking about morris winning with toronto last year you are about to launch into fantasy about the red jays and how toronto would have done with viola on their team viola didn play for toronto last year morris did the problem with your nihilistic approach roger is that it takes all the sense out of the game by your line of reasoning if guy hits into double play with one out and the bases loaded there no point in saying that that was bad thing to do if his team won anyway or speculating on what might have happened if things had gone otherwise so the double play is merely an event that happened in the course of game that was eventually won or lost for unknown reasons after all any speculation involves constructing fantasy about what would have happened but didn roger do you ever worry that the next pencil you drop will fall to the ceiling instead or are you willing to consider empirical evidence teams go to the post season when they win more games than anybody else in their division if they don make the post season they don win the series will you agree that winning division is useful intermediate goal in ring collecting if so you must agree that winning games is useful intermediate goal towards winning the division and our disagreements come when we consider how to win games in your viewpoint as expressed winning games happens for reasons that cannot be analyzed while many of us are thinking things like base runners are good outs are bad and therefore walks are better than double plays with the bases loaded you are thinking things like it team game so perhaps the double play will cause some mysterious team dynamics that will cause the team to win today the result is that it becomes impossible to say anything about individual players perhaps atlanta would have won the series with me playing left field after all perhaps in some way my knowledge and personality would have helped the team more than my complete lack of skill would have hurt it therefore could be an extremely valuable player did dave winfield have anything to do with the jays victory probably but how do you know if you replace him with andres galarraga perhaps the jays would have won perhaps they would have lost perhaps they would have defected to alpha centauri bearing in mind that the flying saucers would not have landed in mid season had winfield been dhing for toronto was babe ruth good player he played on some ws winning teams but did he have anything to do with their success it is generally accepted that ernie banks was good baseball player and jarvis brown and dan schatzeder weren it seems to me that anybody who would deny this needs to provide the proof now we have observed things about baseball over the years both empirically and by looking at the rulebook it is necessary to score more runs than one opponent to win the game so it would seem important to score runs and to prevent one opponent from scoring runs are scored while team is batting and an inning ends after the third out so it would seem that making outs is bad while hitting home runs is good players have tendencies to hit or pitch at certain levels and these are usually somewhat consistent from year to year we do use these statistics to predict winners and so do you to make some flat predictions barry bonds will have higher obp slg than gene larkin this year the braves will finish ahead of the rockies in the standings the tigers will score more runs than the royals but will also give up more would be astonished if any of these turned out to be false and suspect so would you as matter of fact am pretty sure can predict all the division winners this year given guesses per division and this is certainly better than random chance and almost statistically significant if you will admit that the rockies and mariners are unlikely to meet in the world series you must admit that there is some sort of way to measure likelihoods however fuzzy it is impossible for all other things to be equal so your fantasy is totally meaningless so how about real life person robs service station with two people in it using automatic pistol gets and is convicted and sentenced for three years person with similar criminal record robs service station with two people in it using revolver gets and is convicted since they used two different types of handgun are comparisons totally meaningless say you drop pencil to see if the gravity still works my cats are always testing this they don trust me to pay the gravity bill on time you have never dropped pencil at that exact time of the century before so all previous evidence is meaningless or would you be surprised if it flew out the window instead of hitting the desk david thornley who has no replica world series rings but does have tickets to the world series in the metrodome path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu lerc nasa gov ariel lerc nasa gov ecaxron from ecaxron ariel lerc nasa gov ron graham newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re game length was re braves update date apr est organization nasa lewis research center lines distribution world message id apr199311030841 ariel lerc nasa gov references apr17 ulkyvx louisville edu news duke edu apr19 adobe com apr93 vax clarku edu nntp posting host ariel lerc nasa gov news software vax vms vnews in article apr93 vax clarku edu hhenderson vax clarku edu writes nflynn wvnvms wvnet edu writes however what is with this policy of trying to speed up the games agree with nick what the big deal about long games if you want to watch baseball there that much more baseball to watch and yes baseball includes the space between plays as well as the plays themselves hesitate to make assumptions about other people when they write but neither of you two sound as though you have kids and you may not have spouses either consider night game starting at pm est it was last year but cleveland showed what thought was good sense in pushing it back go and into it until pm minimum extra innings could put me well past midnight even without extra innings if the score is beyond can see my family that night at all if the next day is workday may have to bag that as well further the later the game goes the colder it gets on the shore of lake erie all that stuff enters into my consideration of even going to game if you say you don care about whether the game is sped up impo you are saying you don care where the time goes and that the game is for people who don have families and don have to get up for work the next day rg can play me better than anyone there only one of me barry bonds on playing himself in two movies path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net gatech concert duke news duke edu bchm biochem duke edu from fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re bob knepper was damn right message id news duke edu date apr gmt references apr19 news yale edu apr19 leland stanford edu news duke edu qv9aginn3ba shelley washington edu sender news news duke edu organization biochemistry lines nntp posting host bruchner biochem duke edu in article qv9aginn3ba shelley washington edu tannerg hardy washington edu glenn tanner writes fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes in article apr19 leland stanford edu dkeisen leland stanford edu dave eisen writes why did get sucked into this in article apr19 news yale edu austin jacobs writes don you guys think so mean mon what the heck are women doing even thinking of getting into baseball they cause so many problems just assuming you re serious guess you be surprised to hear that us guys don think so would guess that tiny fraction of of the folks reading your post agree with it kind of doubt that even you agree with it sheesh agree with you here dave anyone for starting rec sports idiots for guys like austin no but am for starting rec sports idiots for people who respond to obvious flamebait nah let reserve rec sports idiots for people who post obvious flamebait like yourself if someone posts something as controversial not to mention idiotic as what austin posted in widely accessed newsgroup someone should challenge the statement there is school of thought that suggests that silence consent whereas this idea may not apply to everything in life it certainly should apply to forum of public discussion which is if you ve been reading lately you ll find that even elementary school children have had access to our postings alibet in an edited form it making me think little more carefully about some of the things post in conclusion if someone like austin wants to post his drivel in some obscure newsgroup that don read fine he got the right to rant rave and drool all he wants to in the name of free speech but if he drools in newsgroup that read then will support the right of anyone to provide rebuttal to his drooling now of course you don have to read any of this and if you want to cut down on flames then don post flamebait you don have to respond to flames either saves cyberspace sheesh eric path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net agate jtchern from jtchern ocf berkeley edu joseph hernandez newsgroups rec sport baseball subject mlb standings and scores for tue apr th date apr gmt organization jtc enterprises sports division major league baseball dept lines distribution world message id r141n a32 agate berkeley edu nntp posting host monsoon ether berkeley edu keywords mlb note saturday april th scores should be sent out by this coming friday mlb standings and scores for tuesday april th including yesterday games national west won lost pct gb last streak home road san francisco giants won houston astros won atlanta braves lost los angeles dodgers won san diego padres won colorado rockies lost cincinnati reds won national east philadelphia phillies won pittsburgh pirates lost st louis cardinals lost new york mets lost chicago cubs lost montreal expos won florida marlins lost american west won lost pct gb last streak home road texas rangers won california angels lost minnesota twins lost chicago white sox lost seattle mariners won oakland athletics lost kansas city royals won american east boston red sox won detroit tigers lost toronto blue jays won new york yankees lost milwaukee brewers won cleveland indians lost baltimore orioles won yesterday scores idle teams listed in alphabetical order national league american league houston astros ppd chicago white sox chicago cubs rain boston red sox atlanta braves idle toronto blue jays cincinnati reds idle cleveland indians colorado rockies idle seattle mariners florida marlins idle detroit tigers los angeles dodgers idle baltimore orioles idle montreal expos idle california angels idle new york mets idle kansas city royals idle philadelphia philliesidle milwaukee brewers idle pittsburgh pirates idle minnesota twins idle st louis cardinals idle new york yankees idle san francisco giants idle oakland athletics idle san diego padres idle texas rangers idle joseph hernandez rams lakers jtchern ocf berkeley edu kings dodgers raiders jtcent soda berkeley edu angels clippers path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net agate jtchern from jtchern ocf berkeley edu joseph hernandez newsgroups rec sport baseball subject mlb scores correction date apr gmt organization jtc enterprises sports division major league baseball dept lines distribution world message id r14a0 a6p agate berkeley edu nntp posting host monsoon ether berkeley edu keywords mlb there is correction to the note posted for today update this is how it read note saturday april th scores should be sent out by this coming friday of course last saturday was april th people who requested those scores should receive them by friday the rd thanks joe hernandez joseph hernandez rams lakers jtchern ocf berkeley edu kings dodgers raiders jtcent soda berkeley edu angels clippers path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu msus1 msus edu brekke from brekke msus1 msus edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re devon white why is he not playing message id apr20 msus1 msus edu date apr references apr19 bmerh85 bnr ca c5r5rt fir helios physics utoronto ca organization minnesota state university system lines in article c5r5rt fir helios physics utoronto ca wyllie helios physics utoronto ca andrew wyllie writes in article apr19 bmerh85 bnr ca hsslee bnr ca writes devon white has not been in the blue jays line up lately does anybody know why he is not playing during one of the games last week wednesday both white and sprauge were not playing because they had the flu guess white is probably still sick hope white gets back in the lineup soon watching darrin jackson play center is painful andrew heard he had strained abdominal muscle or something like that dan brekke path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net gatech pitt edu dtate from dtate pitt edu david tate newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re hbp bb big cat message id blue cis pitt edu date apr gmt references apr19 ncar ucar edu qv9psinnsj6 lynx unm edu c5r7tv odin corp sgi com sender news pitt edu distribution na organization department of industrial engineering lines kubey sgi com ken kubey said suppose foul ball machine like brett butler is pretty valuable but rather watch and root for the lower obp guys who can actually hit the ball now this is legitimate point baseball is entertainment and have no quarrel with people who find certain styles of play more entertaining than others regardless of their win value personally huge fan of the slug bunt doubt it high percentage play but get big kick out of it am willing to live with the bad consequences in exchange for the fun of course this is not the same as claiming as some do that galarraga inability to defer gratification isn hurting his team because he isn paid to walk or is an rbi guy or whatever and finally like to point out that many high obp guys draw their walks more because pitchers are afraid to throw strike to them than because they have great eye not sure used to think this was true but more and more becoming convinced that it the other way around among players with the physical ability to hit the ball real hard the patient ones are the ones who get the chance to do it lot let break down the four basic categories of hitter according to whether they are power threats and whether they walk lot power no power patient frank thomas brett butler barry bonds ozzie smith mark mcgwire craig grebeck babe ruth miller huggins ted williams billy hamilton rickey henderson eddie joost joe morgan mike hargrove impatient ernie banks ozzie guillen dave kingman shawon dunston joe carter andres thomas george bell jose lind kirby puckett devon white etc as far as can tell all the categories are full it really looks like the two are independent nobody could possibly be afraid of craig grebeck at the plate and yet he walks quite lot part of that undoubtedly is being small of stature but surely major league pitchers can hit that sort of target at least times out of randy milligan is an even better example he only shown noticeable power for one partial season but he walks all over the place despite his huge strike zone david tate dtate pitt edu greetings sir with bat not quick member iie orsa tims sabr hands not soft eye not discerning and in denver they call you slugger the big catullus galarraga and compare you to my own mattingly path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet news tek com shaman pogo scottwa from scottwa pogo wv tek com scott walsh newsgroups rec sport baseball subject predicted runs from lineup summary estimated runs outs message id pogo wv tek com date apr gmt reply to scottwa pogo wv tek com distribution usa organization tektronix inc wilsonville or lines some time back in this newsgroup seem to recall thread about predicting the runs given lineup of batters could be expected to score given the appropriate statistical alphabet soup for these hitters obp slg avg bat length hat size day of the week weather conditions etc anyway was dreaming or is there some such animal my apologies if this has been covered recently probably get to read of the articles posted here no time many thanks in advance scotty scott walsh scottwa pogo wv tek com tektronix inc graphics printing imaging products ibd path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net gatech concert duke news duke edu bchm biochem duke edu from fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re braves update message id news duke edu date apr gmt references apr17 ulkyvx louisville edu news duke edu apr19 adobe com sender news news duke edu organization biochemistry lines nntp posting host bruchner biochem duke edu in article apr19 adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes in article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes that he been thrown out and gant had legitimate beef about the pitch that was called strike reasonable umpire would not have tried to force gant back into the box in that situation reasonable umpire would do as he been instructed to do this season get the batters back in the box sooner to try to cut down on the ridiculous length of games for one am glad to see this happen and hope more umpires will do as hirschbeck did in instructing the pitcher to pitch if the batter won get back in the box so what if the previous strike call was bogus it in the past it can be changed get back in there and deal with the next pitch sorry sherri but can agree with this particular incident while all for cutting down the number of chain rattles and other examples of rampant hargroving there was difference here since time immemorial batters have complained about calls so have pitchers and catchers usually nothing happens unless the league notified teams this year about not allowing complaints hirschbeck was acting against expectations it not as if gant was in hirschbeck face gant said something about the call stepped out of the box and turned away from hirschbeck as hitter alibet of little consequence but with decent eye whenever receiving the short end of the stick on questionable call want moment or two out of the box if for no other reason than to rethink the strike zone based on the experience of the last pitch and if was really angry at the ump rather turn away and catch my breath than turn to him and say something that might get me tossed especially at key moment in the game when gant turned away hirschbeck immediately motioned for gant to step into the box imo at this point in time hirschbeck was determined to show gant exactly who was in charge of this game gant wasn dawdling he hadn had chance to dawdle and hirschbeck was simply exercising power play gant resisted as many of us might to what we thought was an unreasonable request and hirschbeck called for the pitch at that point cox came out on the field the pitch was thrown and many other braves left the dugout cox was tossed protecting his player was pleasantly surprised that gant kept his cool enough to stay in the game it small sample size but based on what saw in that game mark hirschbeck has hair trigger temper and need to play god on the field not good qualities for an umpire will keep my eyes open for future appearances of hirschbeck in the future in order to improve my sample size imo any game where you remember the name of the umpire was bad game for the umpire eric roush newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com caen uvaarpa murdoch delmarva evsc virginia edu drw3l from drw3l delmarva evsc virginia edu david robert walker subject re jack morris message id c5sfve aq murdoch acc virginia edu sender usenet murdoch acc virginia edu organization university of virginia references apr19 ramsey cs laurentian ca mjones apr20 ramsey cs laurentian ca date tue apr gmt lines in article apr20 ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes we cannot isolate the total contribution that any player at any position makes to his team victory and since we cannot make that measure with complete confidence of objectivity and since there is no absolutely necessary reason to make that kind of subjective measurement submit to you that it is pointless if gm is trying to put together winning team he might consider era he might consider attitude he might consider past performance in key situations but what he is looking for is not the player that he considers the best the gm is looking for the player he thinks can help his team win we cannot isolate completely roger but we can make pretty good estimate won claim to split hairs and say that we can really measure who was better robby alomar or carlos baerga last year the difference is too close to call but larkin and lee clemens and morris the differences are too great there in your measure of the game why should team that has just won it all ever replace single player since they are now clearly best how can they do better yet every team can always find someplace where they beleive they can improve the team they can always find player little better than one they already have btw by my definitions the best player is the one who does the most things to help his team win will allow that this could vary depending on who else is on the team by having aptitudes one team needs more than others baseball is team game but it is made of individual talents it is absurd to judge the success or failure of an individual by the success or failure of his teammates whom he did not choose at least in most cases morris won last year because he played on team with joe carter robby alomar tom henke juan guzman john olerud et al clemens lost because he was surrounded by such lesser performers as herm winninham luis rivera and jeff reardon to define the quality of the team as sum of its components as do albeit imperfectly is lesser error than defining the quality of an individual as the mean quality of the team as my reading of your arguments suggests you do clay newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu linac att att out cbfsb cbnewsg cb att com sas from sas cbnewsg cb att com sullivan subject re let play the name game message id c5sdx7 gzx cbfsb cb att com sender news cbfsb cb att com organization at references apr20 newshub ariel yorku ca distribution na date tue apr gmt lines in article apr20 newshub ariel yorku ca cs902043 ariel yorku ca shawn luddington writes how about changing team names post your choices here ll start how about the baltimore baseblazers san francisco quakes pittsburgh sellouts shawn go rangers newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu news cso uiuc edu ux4 cso uiuc edu rkoffler from rkoffler ux4 cso uiuc edu bighelmet subject phils spot on espn date tue apr gmt message id c5sftx news cso uiuc edu distribution na sender usenet news cso uiuc edu net noise owner organization university of illinois at urbana lines few weeks ago posted about the phillies team personalities did anyone see the espn feature on the phils on monday night john kruk had great line he was talking about people on the team always playing and not sitting out because of minor injury he said if they do they know we ll kick their ass the time saw in was in the afternoon and it was not bleeped when saw it at they bleeped ass mitch williams talked about the team being bunch of throwaways from other teams and that is why they are so close kruk said that they all get along this year last year he said they hated the pitchers assume he was joking but he always keeps straight face when he talks oh what team rob koffler you live day to day and rkoffler ux4 cso uiuc edu dream about tomorrow don henley path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net bogus sura net howland reston ans net agate dog ee lbl gov network ucsd edu news cerf net pagesat olivea apple com apple com not for mail from chuq apple com chuq von rospach newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re ottawa lynx info wanted message id r15bm apple com date apr gmt references apr93 vm1 mcgill ca organization go sharks go giants inc lines nntp posting host apple com cchb musict mcgill ca cchb writes the current roster of the lynx someone on the minor league mailing list probably does home game schedule of the lynx do but don have time to type the whole thing in don mind looking up specific date ranges or individual games when can but there are limits besides this stuff is easy to find baseball america puts out book called the directory it us has every team data and schedule in it if were to type in the whole scheudle just be spending lot of time infringing on their copyright folks who are interested in the minors should check out my minor league list see the signature and folks who are tracking down team schedules should chec out the ba directory you can order it from find it indispenable chuq imho von rospach esd support training dal aux chuq apple com member sfwa editor otherrealms genie mac bigot alink chuq minor league fans minors request medraut apple com san jose giants san francisco giants fans giants request medraut apple com the stick not san jose sharks fans sharks request medraut apple com new seat tbd path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net bogus sura net howland reston ans net agate dog ee lbl gov network ucsd edu news cerf net pagesat olivea apple com apple com not for mail from chuq apple com chuq von rospach newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re braves giants message id r15ne r5 apple com date apr gmt references apr19 leland stanford edu quos2inns8n mephisto gatech edu news duke edu organization go sharks go giants inc lines nntp posting host apple com fls keynes econ duke edu forrest smith writes the situation with the giants bleachers is case in point for the need for commissioner okay curious why are you expectin the commissioner to fly in and stand on the pitchers mound to yell at the fans to sit down or what chuq imho von rospach esd support training dal aux chuq apple com member sfwa editor otherrealms genie mac bigot alink chuq minor league fans minors request medraut apple com san jose giants san francisco giants fans giants request medraut apple com the stick not san jose sharks fans sharks request medraut apple com new seat tbd path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu lerc nasa gov ariel lerc nasa gov ecaxron from ecaxron ariel lerc nasa gov ron graham newsgroups rec sport baseball subject am right no am right was re bob knepper was damn right date apr est organization nasa lewis research center lines distribution world message id apr199311503211 ariel lerc nasa gov references apr19 news yale edu apr19 leland stanford edu news duke edu news duke edu nntp posting host ariel lerc nasa gov news software vax vms vnews in article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes in article qv9aginn3ba shelley washington edu tannerg hardy washington edu glenn tanner writes no but am for starting rec sports idiots for people who respond to obvious flamebait nah let reserve rec sports idiots for people who post obvious flamebait like yourself funny didn realize mr tanner brought up bob knepper pam postema in the first place thought it was someone named jacobs if someone posts something as controversial not to mention idiotic as what austin posted in widely accessed newsgroup someone should challenge the statement why if statement is truly idiotic and is universally thought so the challenge is waste of panting further challenges that have nothing yes nothing to do with baseball are wasting others time you got problem with what bob knepper thinks let hear it in some sort of categorical manner actually question whether either knepper or postema aren old news at this point although what have read of postema book is interesting there is school of thought that suggests that silence consent agree this far whereas this idea may not apply to everything in life it certainly should apply to forum of public discussion sez you if you ve been reading lately you ll find that even elementary school children have had access to our postings albeit in an edited form it making me think little more carefully about some of the things post that does not come out in what you say down the road here in conclusion if someone like austin wants to post his drivel in some obscure newsgroup that don read fine he got the right to rant rave and drool all he wants to in the name of free speech but if he drools in newsgroup that read then will support the right of anyone to provide rebuttal to his drooling yo even elementary school children have had access to our postings albeit in an edited form you want them to hear you talk like this don you want people who come to this group to talk baseball to think you like to do the same or do you want them to think you re some politically correct demagogue who oh so sensitive ho hum plus you re here limiting free speech to some obscure newsgroup that don read what bs you got problem with what jacobs says what knepper thinks all you have to do is defeat it with better ideas more and better speech yours is the easy way out as for knepper ever notice how sometimes these guys will say just about any darn thing that pops in their heads when mike is shoved in front of them you know that often the best copy for the news is the one that isn pre prepared they know knepper has controversial ideas about women they pop some question about postema an interesting related question would be whether the two ever appeared in the same game off the top of my head guess no if my guess is right knepper popped off about something that had nothing to do with him and postema gets book for it and he doesn now of course you don have to read any of this and if you want to cut down on flames then don post flamebait you don have to respond to flames either saves cyberspace now why didn think of that rg can play me better than anyone there only one of me barry bonds on playing himself in two movies newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu malgudi oar net news ans net newsgate watson ibm com yktnews watson ibm com hawnews watson ibm com fenway mjones from mjones watson ibm com mike jones subject re bonilla sender news hawnews watson ibm com nntp news poster message id mjones fenway date tue apr gmt reply to mjones donald aix kingston ibm com disclaimer this posting represents the poster views not necessarily those of ibm references apr18 princeton edu news duke edu mjones fenway apr20 midway uchicago edu nntp posting host fenway aix kingston ibm com organization ibm aix esa development kingston ny lines thf2 kimbark uchicago edu ted frank writes in article mjones fenway mjones donald aix kingston ibm com writes fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes quick name light hitting black outfielder or who lasted years in the bigs bet you can name two dozen white ones otis nixon stole bases ok he still light hitting but baseball managers don think so they think he like omar moreno before him is perfect leadoff man awesome defense well yeah on the other hand for the first few years of his career he looked like herb washington dan gladden doesn seem to suck defensively either darnell coles he still around because of his when he hit hr yeah and how many of the white guys played one year into long career it actually not an uncommon phenomenon and how long guy hangs around based on one good year seems like reasonable question to explore on racial basis billy hatcher we ll see if he still around in for his tenth year hey he plays for lou gorman doesn he ok so it eight years ok admit to taking quick browse through the major league handbook but only after the first or oh and there the all time light hitting black outfielder lou brock look it up and curt flood cesar geronimo cesar cedeno brock suffered from otis nixon disease but he wasn perceived as light hitting neither was curt flood cesar cedeno was not light hitting good point on cedeno otoh haven seen that extensive list of year dan gladdens either there really aren that many players altogether who hang around for years even if they re reasonably good mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com may you live in interesting times chinese curse path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech concert duke news duke edu keynes econ duke edu fls from fls keynes econ duke edu forrest smith newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re braves update message id news duke edu date apr gmt references apr17 ulkyvx louisville edu news duke edu apr19 adobe com sender news news duke edu organization duke university durham lines nntp posting host keynes econ duke edu in article apr19 adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes reasonable umpire would do as he been instructed to do this season get the batters back in the box sooner to try to cut down on the ridiculous length of games for one am glad to see this happen and hope more umpires will do as hirschbeck did in instructing the pitcher to pitch if the batter won get back in the box reasonable umpire would have recognized that ron gant was disturbed with the call reasonable umpire would have realized that there was run game in progress with two outs in the ninth what ron gant did was try to regain his composure what normal baseball player would have done would have been to get into heated argument with the umpire and since you can argue balls and strikes he would have been ejected from the game ron gant by trying to avoid such conflict was penalized for showing some restraint incidentally reasonable home plate umpire would not have been so resistant to seeking the appeal to the first base umpire as gant requested if the home plate umpire had appealed to first the first base umpire could have wrung up the strike and gant would not have been so upset if the call had been ball and the catcher had requested the appeal it is likely the home plate umpire would have asked for the help finally the entire game was pretty much mockery of the so called efforts to speed up the game the game was played very quickly it was just at hours when the stuff happened in the ninth and the only delays in the entire game had been the result of actions by the umpires other than deion having to clean garbage off the field econ duke edu fls econ duke edu fls econ duke edu fls econ duke to my correspondents my email has been changed my new address is fls econ duke edu if mail bounces try fls raphael acpub duke edu newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu utnut torn pulp cs laurentian ca maynard from maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard subject re jack morris message id apr20 ramsey cs laurentian ca organization dept of computer science laurentian university sudbury on references apr19 ramsey cs laurentian ca mjones apr20 ramsey cs laurentian ca c5sfve aq murdoch acc virginia edu date tue apr gmt lines in c5sfve aq murdoch acc virginia edu drw3l delmarva evsc virginia edu david robert walker writes we cannot isolate completely roger but we can make pretty good estimate won claim to split hairs and say that we can really measure who was better robby alomar or carlos baerga last year the difference is too close to call but larkin and lee clemens and morris the differences are too great there in your measure of the game why should team that has just won it all ever replace single player since they are now clearly best how can they do better yet every team can always find someplace where they beleive they can improve the team they can always find player little better than one they already have btw by my definitions the best player is the one who does the most things to help his team win will allow that this could vary depending on who else is on the team by having aptitudes one team needs more than others well then given your definition of best is it not conceivable that alfredo griffin could bring something to team that that team needs to win while larkin might not have that something the team needs would griffin then be better than larkin baseball is team game but it is made of individual talents it is absurd to judge the success or failure of an individual by the success or failure of his teammates whom he did not choose at least in most cases morris won last year because he played on team with joe carter robby alomar tom henke juan guzman john olerud et al clemens lost because he was surrounded by such lesser performers as herm winninham luis rivera and jeff reardon to define the quality of the team as sum of its components as do albeit imperfectly is lesser error than defining the quality of an individual as the mean quality of the team as my reading of your arguments suggests you do no am not trying to define the quality of an individual at least not for the purpose of ranking them toronto won with olerud they might have won with fielder they might not have won with thomas detroit might have won with thomas chicago might have won with fielder you can rank these individuals you can only look at who might contribute more to the team effort which is winning the ws thomas could not have contributed to that goal any more than olerud so cannot say that olerud is less of player cordially as always maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca so many morons rm and so little time newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net agate news ucdavis edu chip ucdavis edu ez027993 from ez027993 chip ucdavis edu gary built like villanueva huckabay subject how to speed up games marginally realistic message id c5she2 lkf ucdavis edu sender usenet ucdavis edu organization chef dave koresh bbq pits inc subsidiary of lundyco date tue apr gmt lines you want to speed up ballgames enforce the two minutes between innings as it is many fields are allowing three minutes between them fifteen seconds before tv commercials are gone to thirty or so before action begins upon the return to the game two minutes last out to first pitch or ball is called don grant time to batters just because they want it they may get pissed at first but they ll get in line once anything the pitcher throws while they re adjusting their wristbands is strike mandate rule permitting only seconds between pitches the current rule is too lenient and then enforce it fifteen seconds is more than enough time if the pitch isn released in call it ball and restart the clock baseball games take about in the nl and just shade under hours in the al that just too damn long don like to play in hour games much less watch game for that long my butt falls asleep and if watching on tv ll channel surf between pitches catching colorized versions of mr ed leave it to beaver and those wacky nieporents on nick at nite gary huckabay you think that loud enough hole movie rights well if you re having trouble hearing it sir available thru be happy to turn it up for you didn ted frank know that many people your age liked king path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech concert duke news duke edu keynes econ duke edu fls from fls keynes econ duke edu forrest smith newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re braves giants message id news duke edu date apr gmt references quos2inns8n mephisto gatech edu news duke edu news duke edu sender news news duke edu organization duke university durham lines nntp posting host keynes econ duke edu in article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes just refresher the baseballs came on the field during sunday slugfest when giant patron refused to throw an atlanta hr back the garbage started hitting the field well before the sunday game it started on thursday or friday can recall which games didn watch on tbs deion was getting pelted with trash the whole time it seemed the announcers talked about the change in the seating in the bleachers and how that made it easier for the events that transpired actually thought at the start of the sunday slugfest that since it was sunday daygame the crowd would be little different more refined surprise econ duke edu fls econ duke edu fls econ duke edu fls econ duke to my correspondents my email has been changed my new address is fls econ duke edu if mail bounces try fls raphael acpub duke edu newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu malgudi oar net news ans net newsgate watson ibm com yktnews watson ibm com hawnews watson ibm com fenway mjones from mjones watson ibm com mike jones subject re game length was re braves update sender news hawnews watson ibm com nntp news poster message id mjones fenway date tue apr gmt reply to mjones donald aix kingston ibm com disclaimer this posting represents the poster views not necessarily those of ibm references apr17 ulkyvx louisville edu news duke edu apr19 adobe com apr20 wvnvms wvnet edu nntp posting host fenway aix kingston ibm com organization ibm aix esa development kingston ny lines nflynn wvnvms wvnet edu writes in article apr19 adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes stuff about ron gant incident deleted reasonable umpire would do as he been instructed to do this season get the batters back in the box sooner to try to cut down on the ridiculous length of games for one am glad to see this happen agree that hirschbeck was just doing what he was instructed to do and also that gant should have listened to him however what is with this policy of trying to speed up the games you are the first person non mediot have seen endorse this policy have no problem with the length of games at all and am tired of the espn crowd and other announcers bitching about it have never been in ballpark filled with people looking at their watches and shouting hurry up if cough up big bucks for ticket don mind game that last more than really don understand it games are longer now for several reasons stuff deleted maybe am just ne er do well with nothing better to do but would like to hear reasons why the longer games upset you well don want shorter games per se but would like for them to stop wasting so much time during games the gant incident is perfect example when guy comes to the plate he should be up there to hit not show off or show up the umpire which is clearly what gant was doing feel like writing fan letter to hirschbeck mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com for purposes of action nothing is more useful than narrowness of thought combined with energy of will henri frederick amile newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu usc sdd hp com think com paperboy osf org dswartz from dswartz osf org dan swartzendruber subject re dopson pitches first shutout red sox win message id apr20 osf org sender news osf org usenet news system organization open software foundation research institute references qupmf dp transfer stratus com c5r5vt news cso uiuc edu date tue apr gmt lines in article c5r5vt news cso uiuc edu cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes jmann vineland pubs stratus com jim mann writes deleted someone told me this game started at cdt is this true who in their right mind would go to game on monday at am keep in mind this was in massachussetts today was patriots day state holiday think it might be floating holiday but given that the marathon also happens the same day most people don go in include std disclaimer dan newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl adobe snichols from snichols adobe com sherri nichols subject re bonilla message id apr20 adobe com sender usenet adobe com usenet news organization adobe systems incorporated references news duke edu mjones fenway apr20 midway uchicago edu date tue apr gmt lines in article apr20 midway uchicago edu thf2 midway uchicago edu writes gary varsho halfway there and unlikely to make it of the way there wait minute could swear that varsho is white sherri nichols snichols adobe com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net spool mu edu news nd edu bsu cs bsu ucs uucp mbstultz from mbstultz leo bsuvc bsu edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject all time peak players message id apr19 bsu ucs date apr gmt organization ball state university muncie in univ computing svc lines last week posted the all time greatest players and haphazardly misspelled several names sorry this week it time for the greatest peak players evaluated the following players on consectutive seasons which constituted their prime or peak years was too few seemed to many so settled for sources as usual include total baseball and my own biased opinions here goes feel free to comment ted williams includes season after war missed actual peak years babe ruth walter johnson mickey mantle mike schmidt actual peak year shortened by strike barrry bonds currently at peak honus wagner ty cobb tris speaker willie mays lefty grove sandy koufax joe morgan ed walsh christy mathewson lou gehrig jimmie foxx cal ripken jr pete alexander cy young tim raines rickey henderson again strike year included carl yastrzemski jackie robinson joe dimaggio rogers hornsby george sisler eddie collins hank aaron stan musial joe jackson wade boggs charlie gehringer ernie banks bob gibson carl hubbell robin yount rod carew chuck klein willie mccovey frank robinson tom seaver roger clemens arguably still in peak mel ott frank baker nap lajoie peak came in suspect league dizzy trout george brett mordecai brown ryne sandberg peak gehrig foxx sisler mccovey greenberg frank thomas projected sorry dick allen johnny mize eddie murray yes mr consistency had peak bill terry morgan robinson collins hornsby gehringer carew treated as even though played sandberg bobby grich nap lajoie bill herman mazeroski tough call schmidt boggs baker brett ed mathews ron santo harland clift ken boyer buddy bell darrell evans ss wagner ripken banks yount john lloyd estimated arky vaughan barry larkin still in peak lou boudreau ozzie smith joe sewell lf williams ba bonds raines henderson actually had peaks yastrzemski musial jackson ralph kiner al simmons george foster willie stargell cf mantle cobb speaker mays dimaggio oscar charleston again estimated duke snider ken griffey jr personal assumption kirby puckett richie ashburn dale murphy strike season rf ruth aaron klein robinson ott roberto clemente tony gwynn dave parker reggie jackson harry heilmann jose canseco darryl strawberry josh gibson estimated mickey cochrane gary carter johnny bench roy campanella yogi berra bill dickey gabby hartnett elston howard ted simmons joe torre johnson grove koufax walsh mathewson alexander young gibson hubbell seaver clemens satchel paige estimated trout juan marichal mordecai brown joe wood dave steib jim palmer bob lemon fergie jenkins rp who cares hope there are some surprises here raines above muisial carter above bench ripken above banks bonds above mays check the numbers of each player in comparison to the numbers of the rest of the players that year and you ll see that fairly close with this ranking system which is primarily based on total player rating for four consecutive years enjoy mike path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net noc near net uunet olivea hal com decwrl adobe snichols from snichols adobe com sherri nichols newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re usa mcweekly stats message id apr20 adobe com date apr gmt references franjion spot colorado edu rvesterm vma cc nd edu apr20 mnemosyne cs du edu sender usenet adobe com usenet news organization adobe systems incorporated lines in article apr20 mnemosyne cs du edu gspira nyx cs du edu greg spira writes uh bill james doesn sell statistics he sells books with statistics but he is not in the business of providing stats like elias stats howe baseball workshop etc are bill james is however very closely tied to stats sherri nichols snichols adobe com newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net spool mu edu torn pulp cs laurentian ca maynard from maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard subject re jack morris message id apr20 ramsey cs laurentian ca organization dept of computer science laurentian university sudbury on references apr18 mnemosyne cs du edu apr18 cs cornell edu apr19 newshub ariel yorku ca apr19 cs cornell edu apr19 ramsey cs laurentian ca sdcc12 ucsd edu date tue apr gmt lines in sdcc12 ucsd edu demers cs ucsd edu david demers writes in article apr19 ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes the facts are that morris has shown us that he has what it takes to play on ws winning club clemens hasn what does it take to play on ws winning club we have no way of knowing because we cannot separate morris contribu tion from the rest of the team there is only one way of determin ing best in baseball and that is by looking at the scoreboard at the end of the game each game determines which team is the best that day at the end of the season the team that was the best the most often is the best in the division the playoffs determine the best of the best but the point is that the only decision making pro cess used to determine the best is the score of the game and it re lates to the teams not the individual players there is no method inherent in baseball of comparing individual performances and that is how it should be because after all baseball is team game to say that one player is better than another is to be able to say ab solutely that player team would have played better with player in their lineup sheer speculation impossible to ascertain if you want to select group of statistics and claim that clemens has done better with those statistics as criteria then fine but you have to be able to prove that those statistics measure the individual contribution to winning the ws because that is the only measure of best that has any meaning in the context of base ball so until you can prove that clemens contributes to ws cham pionship more than morris your evaluation of clemens is totally sub jective and is mere opinion have yet to see that any of you can predict ws winner with any greater accuracy than jeanne dixon the fact is that morris didn win any ballgames toronto did in spite of morris contribution this has been explained to you exactly the jays won with morris pitching and boston wins with clemens pitching am not saying that morris is better than clemens am saying that individual comparisons between players are totally meaningless and that anyone claiming that clemens is better based on his era has missed the point of what baseball is all about many many times and you are either too stupid or too stubborn to grasp it you don have to be rude you are completely consumed by the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy for you to say that means that you have either missed the entire point of my argument or you yourself have committed fallacy ignoratio elenchi am not saying that morris is better than clemens because he has more rings although have tongue in cheek claimed that in the past am saying that it is impossible to isolate an individual performance from that of his team for the purpose of comparing that individual performance with another individual per formance the stats are nice hobby and that about it there is no new knowledge being produced so when poster claims that morris is better than clemens because he has more rings the poster is no more nor less incorrect than the rest of you baying hounds cordially as always maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca so many morons rm and so little time path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu swrinde network ucsd edu sdcc12 cs demers from demers cs ucsd edu david demers newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re hbp bb big cat message id sdcc12 ucsd edu date apr gmt references mjones fenway apr19 ncar ucar edu qv9psinnsj6 lynx unm edu c5r7tv odin corp sgi com sender news sdcc12 ucsd edu distribution na organization cse dept uc san diego lines nntp posting host mbongo ucsd edu in article c5r7tv odin corp sgi com kubey sgi com ken kubey writes don blame players like galarraga dawson and mcgee when they swing at strike and put the ball in play well no problem but get pretty annoyed when they swing at non strikes and make outs especially ball four on the counts dave dave demers demers cs ucsd edu computer science engineering demers cs ucsd bitnet uc san diego ucsd cs demers la jolla ca or fax path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net bogus sura net jhunix hcf jhu edu jhunix hcf jhu edu not for mail from pablo jhunix hcf jhu edu pablo iglesias newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re braves update date apr organization homewood academic computing johns hopkins university baltimore md usa lines message id r189kinn14i jhunix hcf jhu edu references news duke edu apr19 adobe com news duke edu nntp posting host jhunix hcf jhu edu in article news duke edu fls keynes econ duke edu forrest smith writes argument over reasonable players and umpires deleted incidentally reasonable home plate umpire would not have been so resistant to seeking the appeal to the first base umpire as gant requested if the home plate umpire had appealed to first the first base umpire could have wrung up the strike and gant would not have been so upset if the call had been ball and the catcher had requested the appeal it is likely the home plate umpire would have asked for the help yes but the baseball rules say you can only appeal ball and not strike there was no decision made by the umpire regarding an appeal once he called it strike the call could not be changed thought that the umpire did the right thing pablo iglesias pi ruth ece jhu edu newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net agate dog ee lbl gov network ucsd edu mvb saic com ast saic com asdi sac from sac asdi saic com steve conroy x6172 subject re game length was re braves update message id apr20 ast saic com sender sac asdi steve conroy x6172 organization saic references apr17 ulkyvx louisville edu news duke edu apr19 adobe com apr20 wvnvms wvnet edu date tue apr gmt lines in article apr20 wvnvms wvnet edu nflynn wvnvms wvnet edu writes in article apr19 adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes however what is with this policy of trying to speed up the games you are the first person non mediot have seen endorse this policy have no problem with the length of games at all and am tired of the espn crowd and other announcers bitching about it have never been in ballpark filled with people looking at their watches and shouting hurry up if cough up big bucks for ticket don mind game that last more than really don understand it major league baseball is trying to expand its appeal to people with shorter attention spans the football crowd invariably all the arguments from people who don like to watch baseball on say the same thing the games are too long and too boring baseball is trying to find way to shorten the games for wider appeal if you look at it though baseball games last around the same amount of time as football games the difference is that there is more action in that duration in football games perhaps if there were more action in baseball games you would get more of those fans to tune in anyway coming up with solution to make baseball more appealing to bigger crowd is going to be difficult on soapbox yet another reason to get commisioner now since it obvious that ruling baseball by comittee works about as fast as snail race in nebraska off soapbox steve steve conroy conroy terminus saic com gone man solid gone science applications baloo international corporation path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net bogus sura net jhunix hcf jhu edu jhunix hcf jhu edu not for mail from pablo jhunix hcf jhu edu pablo iglesias newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re how to speed up games marginally realistic date apr organization homewood academic computing johns hopkins university baltimore md usa lines message id r18koinn1mc jhunix hcf jhu edu references c5she2 lkf ucdavis edu nntp posting host jhunix hcf jhu edu in article c5she2 lkf ucdavis edu ez027993 chip ucdavis edu gary built like villanueva huckabay writes you want to speed up ballgames enforce the two minutes between innings as it is many fields are allowing three minutes between them fifteen seconds before tv commercials are gone to thirty or so before action begins upon the return to the game two minutes last out to first pitch or ball is called don grant time to batters just because they want it they may get pissed at first but they ll get in line once anything the pitcher throws while they re adjusting their wristbands is strike mandate rule permitting only seconds between pitches the current rule is too lenient and then enforce it fifteen seconds is more than enough time if the pitch isn released in call it ball and restart the clock ve only ever seen this called once back around think that steve carlton was pitching on the other hand am not sure how much effect this would have it seems that most of the time lost is when there are runners on base and the rule does not cover this have wondered why pitcher is given pitches when he enters the game let be serious the relief pitcher has normally been throwing out in the bullpen for few minutes does he really need more pitches pablo iglesias pi ruth ece jhu edu newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu staff tc umn edu kirsch from kirsch staff tc umn edu dave almost cursed the jays kirsch subject re jose canseco swing vs message id c5rclz ah news2 cis umn edu sender news news2 cis umn edu usenet news administration nntp posting host staff tc umn edu organization li carlos and the hormones references rvesterm vma cc nd edu bd2b37c atlas nafb trw com c5r5b8 d1u ucdavis edu date tue apr gmt lines in article c5r5b8 d1u ucdavis edu ez027993 dale ucdavis edu gary man from villanueva huckabay writes it certainly not very easy what do is use frame advance on the tape and simply count the frames five times and try to throw out any outliers it not perfect but it better than blow to the head with large metal object ah so you finally found use for that super slo mo and frame advance other than scrutinizing sorority babes in heat congrats wish had films instead of tapes preferably at fps rather than but while at it like to have ten million dollars and be able to eat anything want and never gain any weight either trust me you have helluva time manipulating them besides if you converted the film to video you have all kinds of artifacts because of the difference in frame rate unless you re an expert at doing pulldown for laserdisc company or something gary list of the ten slowest bats in baseball hey no fair what about fettucine alfredo griffin the guy practically has to pivot the bat around along with his body gary list of how the hell can he hit like that julio franco phil plantier darren daulton daulton doesn strike me as all that strange he little bit quiet at the plate but like franco gets the bat through the hitting zone on level plane the first time watched julio franco didn think anyone could hit like that now marvel at how easy he makes it look every time he makes contact it solid he got good power to all fields and rarely is he caught not ready for pitch wonder if phil plantier had severe bout with hemorrhoids and had to practice his swing while on the throne sure looks like it how bout one to add to your list travis fryman the guy plants his front foot and seems to swing across his body he generates lot of power but keep thinking he could generate even more if he could get better pivot out of his hips gary list of give dave kirsch kidneys to have swing like that well they re already spoken for by several people but add robbie alomar name to the list among others really like dean palmer swing for some twisted reason as well as pedro munoz swing that all for now looking at derrick may tapes tonight along with troy neel that guy is serious ox thought about may it looks like they ve taught him to turn on the ball imho he going to fall in love with his newfound power and start pulling off the ball to the point that he going to see lots of sinkers sliders low and away unless he adjusts quickly and starts rifling doubles to left and left center imho you re going to see good number of weak grounders to the right side of the infield in the next month dave hung like jim acker slider kirsch blue jays do it again in kirsch staff tc umn edu new quotes out of context not to beat dead horse but it been couple weeks this disappoints me punishments discharges jackhammering stephen lawrence newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net noc near net black clarku edu vax clarku edu hhenderson from hhenderson vax clarku edu subject re game length was re braves update message id apr93 vax clarku edu sender news black clarku edu usenet news system organization clark university references apr17 ulkyvx louisville edu news duke edu apr19 adobe com apr20 wvnvms wvnet edu apr20 ast saic com date apr gmt lines ecaxron ariel lerc nasa gov ron graham writes hesitate to make assumptions about other people when they write but neither of you two sound as though you have kids and you may not have spouses either wonder why you say that don see why having spouse and or kids would have anything to do with it it might if you brought your kids to the game and wanted them to get home in time to get to bed at reasonable hour in which case probably decide to take my kids to games on weekends as many people do or else be prepared to leave the game early but from what you say later on you don bring your kids or your spouse to the game as it happens have husband but no kids and my husband usually attends games with me extra innings could put me well past midnight even without extra innings if the score is beyond can see my family that night at all if the next day is workday may have to bag that as well can see it problem if you don bring your wife to the ballgame but that problem even if the game goes trim hours as far as bagging work the next day don really understand why that necessary unless going to game also means that you consume vast quantities of beer note that this is the case for many guys if you don think you can get up to go to work after long evening out then don have long evenings out during the week all that stuff enters into my consideration of even going to game if you say you don care about whether the game is sped up impo you are saying you don care where the time goes and that the game is for people who don have families and don have to get up for work the next day look if pay between and apiece for tickets plus for parking plus spending my time and energy driving to and from boston plus spending additional money on concessions etc at the ballpark then see going to game as considerable investment of time and money can afford to go to lot of games hence going to game is big deal like going to play or an opera maybe you have more money than do and can go to games all year long so it not such big deal for you but not interested in having games sped up any more than want to have die walkure cut down to convenient weeknight version of two hours if felt that going to night game during the week would interfere with my family life or my work life then choose to go to weekend game impo heather hhenderson vax clarku edu newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet gatekeeper us oracle com decwrl adobe snichols from snichols adobe com sherri nichols subject re game length was re braves update message id apr20 adobe com sender usenet adobe com usenet news organization adobe systems incorporated references news duke edu apr19 adobe com apr20 wvnvms wvnet edu date tue apr gmt lines in article apr20 wvnvms wvnet edu nflynn wvnvms wvnet edu writes agree that hirschbeck was just doing what he was instructed to do and also that gant should have listened to him however what is with this policy of trying to speed up the games you are the first person non mediot have seen endorse this policy wholeheartedly endorse it have no problem with the length of games at all and am tired of the espn crowd and other announcers bitching about it have never been in ballpark filled with people looking at their watches and shouting hurry up if cough up big bucks for ticket don mind game that last more than really don understand it haven been to many games have you seriously don mind baseball game that lasts long time if it lasts long time because there is good baseball being played however don like games that take hours because there lot of dead time going on in that game don find anything exciting about watching batter or pitcher wander around between pitches or watching the catcher make slow walk to the mound or watching lots of pitcher changes for no good reason whitey herzog used to be the master of this the game could be way out of reach and he still be making switches for platoon advantage want to see the game not people standing around don really enjoy watching nfl football games in person for example because there so much dead time you don really notice how much dead time there is if you watch it on television because they re busy showing you replays don like that college basketball games have so many time outs at the end of the game the ncaa has made some moves to try to alleviate this problem for next year they re going to stop the clock after made baskets late in games next year and they re going to second clock there also difference in how tolerant am of long games if watching them on the tube and if going there in person for me going to an game has become major commitment of time one that not willing to make that often the length of their games is costing the revenue from me sherri nichols snichols adobe com newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net gatech concert decwrl adobe snichols from snichols adobe com sherri nichols subject re braves update message id apr20 adobe com sender usenet adobe com usenet news organization adobe systems incorporated references news duke edu apr19 adobe com news duke edu date tue apr gmt lines in article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes since time immemorial batters have complained about calls so have pitchers and catchers however batters didn use to go for strolls after bad calls to the degree they do now unless the league notified teams this year about not allowing complaints hirschbeck was acting against expectations everyone was told of the new emphasis on speeding up games the rule that hirschbeck invoked has been in the books long time it not as if gant was in hirschbeck face nobody including hirschbeck ever said he was when gant turned away hirschbeck immediately motioned for gant to step into the box imo at this point in time hirschbeck was determined to show gant exactly who was in charge of this game gant wasn dawdling he hadn had chance to dawdle and hirschbeck was simply exercising power play that your perhaps colored by your partisanship of the braves perception hirschbeck view was that gant was heading off for long walk and in accordance with his instructions concerning speeding games up directed him into the batter box gant resisted as many of us might to what we thought was an unreasonable request and hirschbeck called for the pitch the point is based on the rulebook and the umpires instructions it was not an unreasonable request the braves were already upset imo any game where you remember the name of the umpire was bad game for the umpire had gant done as instructed you wouldn have remembered the name of the umpire sherri nichols snichols adobe com newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu gaia ucs orst edu connected com beauty nwnexus esca vigil from vigil esca com sandra vigil subject re hispanic all star team message id apr19 esca com organization esca corporation bellevue wa references bu edu date mon apr gmt lines icop csa bu edu antonio pera writes hispanic magazine april had couple of interesting articles about hispanic players including its hispanic all star team some of the major points are npr morning edition aired report this morning on hispanic latin american players in mlb and how they have many of the same problems faced by black negro african american players when they first entered the league however although baseball has adjusted to the presence of black players many hispanic players still labor under the stereotype of being fireballs hot blooded flashy the report also emphasised that despite the rantings my word of jessie jackson about baseballs discrimination against black players in its upper echelons baseball has actually done much better by black players than hispanic players another interesting point was the language barrier problem the reporter elaborated on an interview with ruben sierra which he gave in spanish to spanish speaking newspaper reporter with the fact that there are maybe major baseball writers that speak spanish despite the fact that spanish is one of if not the easiest languages to learn so easy that the author cormac mccarthy learned spanish at age in order to research his book all the pretty horses yet few mlb organizations employ spanish speaking personel one of the exceptions being the oakland another point nearly of latin american players have some african blood yet most report that they never really felt black until playing ball in the us ironically enough it is the early presence of latin american baseball players in the major leagues that support the idea that baseball was integrated before the arrival of jackie robinson as many light black or brown latin americans were incorporated into baseball did not know the cure for the disease of images but believed in the healing sandra vigil power of words and stories vigil esca com until the end of the world path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu usc elroy jpl nasa gov ncar noao arizona dkl from dkl cs arizona edu david lowenthal newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re braves giants message id optima cs arizona edu date apr gmt references apr19 leland stanford edu quos2inns8n mephisto gatech edu news duke edu organization of arizona cs dept tucson lines in article news duke edu fls keynes econ duke edu forrest smith writes cox should ve protested the game the second time the garbage got thrown at his outfielders he should also have protested the game at the point where ron gant was assessed the second strike in the ninth on the grounds that he cox was on the field and time should have been called both protests would be denied of course the umpire judgement determines the garbage thing although think the game should be called but that my personal opinion doesn matter there is time only when the ump says so the second argument is baseless dave path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov ncar noao arizona dkl from dkl cs arizona edu david lowenthal newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re braves giants message id optima cs arizona edu date apr gmt references quos2inns8n mephisto gatech edu news duke edu news duke edu organization of arizona cs dept tucson lines the situation with the giants bleachers is case in point for the need for commissioner this is true but the main thing the commish selig needs to do is to suspend bobby cox you cannot allow team to come out at the ump as the braves did usually rip umps but in this case the players were dead wrong cox should go for games if had ever umped game where that happened have ejected every player that came out only cox and gant would have been spared and then cox would have gone in the ensuing argument dave newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu caen batcomputer cornell tedward from tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer subject re jack morris message id apr20 cs cornell edu organization cornell univ cs dept ithaca ny references apr20 ramsey cs laurentian ca c5sfve aq murdoch acc virginia edu apr20 ramsey cs laurentian ca date tue apr gmt lines in article apr20 ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes btw by my definitions the best player is the one who does the most things to help his team win will allow that this could vary depending on who else is on the team by having aptitudes one team needs more than others well then given your definition of best is it not conceivable that alfredo griffin could bring something to team that that team needs to win while larkin might not have that something the team needs no do not find this conceivable also cannot conceive of the possibility that there is any hypothetical team which morris would help more than clemens would griffin then be better than larkin given your premise yes but you are alone in your ability to conceive of that premise valentine newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet utcsri utzoo rising from rising zoo toronto edu jim rising subject modest request message id c5sh8k dnq zoo toronto edu date tue apr gmt organization of toronto zoology lines am finding the volume of stuff on rec sport baseball overwhelming ca posts day an effect of this is that backlog builds up and many posts get dumped from my system could probably fix that but don have the time to read them all in any event my guess is that mine is common problem have some ideas that would help each person generally post no more than one article day limit the extent to which previous posts are reproduced in posts don post mindless woofs or anti woofs the jays are best or the jays suck don respond to mindless posts jack morris is better pitcher than frank viola because he won world series know that you can use the key to get by these posts but they bump interesting posts from my disk use the goddamn shift key etc it makes your posts easier to read name jim rising mail dept zoology univ toronto toronto ontario canada m5s a1 uucp uunet attcan utzoo rising bitnet rising zoo utoronto ca newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net noc near net uunet mnemosyne cs du edu nyx msilverm from msilverm nyx cs du edu mike silverman subject the mystery of ron gant message id apr20 mnemosyne cs du edu sender usenet mnemosyne cs du edu netnews admin account organization university of denver dept of math comp sci date tue apr gmt lines any of you experts want to analyze ron gant is his early season slump because he is still swinging his bat the way he was last year trying to hit to all fields etc or has he changed his swing back to the old gant and is just in small early season slump is his spot int he lineup even secure especially the way he has been hitting msilverm nyx cs du edu go cubs one likes to believe in the freedom of baseball geddy lee xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec sport baseball rec sport baseball fantasy newsgroups rec sport baseball rec sport baseball fantasy path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net noc near net uunet mnemosyne cs du edu nyx msilverm from msilverm nyx cs du edu mike silverman subject ray lankford question message id apr20 mnemosyne cs du edu sender usenet mnemosyne cs du edu netnews admin account organization university of denver dept of math comp sci date tue apr gmt lines does anybody know what is going on with lankford know he was out for few games with slight injury but since he has beenback and before the injury for that matter he has been really struggling at the plate and on the basepaths whereis the ray lankford we saw last year msilverm nyx cs du edu go cubs one likes to believe in the freedom of baseball geddy lee newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl adobe snichols from snichols adobe com sherri nichols subject re relative value of players message id apr20 adobe com sender usenet adobe com usenet news organization adobe systems incorporated references c5ro4h lww world std com date tue apr gmt lines in article c5ro4h lww world std com jle world std com joe leonard writes always thought that reasonable means of measuring value between players was to attempt to determine if team would trade one for another the major problem with this analysis is that it ignores age even if morris were performing as well as clemens right now and were likely to this season nobody would trade clemens for morris straight up because clemens has more of his career left sherri nichols snichols adobe com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester rutgers njitgw njit edu tesla njit edu drm6640 from drm6640 tesla njit edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject best first basemen message id apr20 tesla njit edu date apr gmt sender news njit edu organization new jersey institute of technology lines nntp posting host tesla don mattingly is the best first baseman in the history of baseball always has been always will be path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net noc near net uunet olivea gossip pyramid com pyramid pyrnova mis pyramid com pcollac from pcollac pyrnova mis pyramid com paul collacchi newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re braves giants case study of their weaknesses message id pyramid pyramid com date apr gmt references quos2inns8n mephisto gatech edu news duke edu apr19 novell com apr20 bnlux1 bnl gov sender news pyramid pyramid com reply to pcollac pyrnova mis pyramid com paul collacchi distribution usa organization pyramid technologies mt view california lines in article apr20 bnlux1 bnl gov kyee bnlux1 bnl gov kenton yee writes sunday game exposed the weaknesses of both teams quite clearly and that the braves are vulnerable braves weaknesses weak defense couple of bond doubles and bloop by clayton would ve been caught by better outfield weak bullpen ha ha their closers are bedrosian and howell not an astute observation this is straw bullpen the lefties stanton mercker are strong and wohlers is down learning new pitch the bullpen is fine probably superior over reliance on pendleton pendleton slump becomes team slump also false gant nixon justice hunter blauser present decent enough offense everyone is slumping except blauser not just pendleton btw what is the story with brian hunter is he in the dog house paul collacchi path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net noc near net uunet world ksr dorin from dorin ksr com bob dorin newsgroups rec sport baseball subject texas rangers roster please help message id ksr com date apr edt sender news ksr com organization kendall square research corp lines need little help from texas rangers expert was at yankee stadium sunday texas rout with my kids we wandered out to the outfield during rangers batting practice and caught ball tossed into the stands actually wrestled some guy bit might add by on the rangers who is he looked like bullpen assistant type youngish think he was not in the roster listed in the yankee scorecard any ideas please mail as haven been reading regularly thanks bob name bob dorin company kendall square research email dorin ksr com ksr dorin path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu pitt edu ccohen from ccohen pitt edu caleb cohen newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re how to speed up games marginally realistic message id blue cis pitt edu date apr gmt references r18koinn1mc jhunix hcf jhu edu sender news pitt edu lines newsreader tin version pl8 pablo iglesias pablo jhunix hcf jhu edu wrote have wondered why pitcher is given pitches when he enters the game let be serious the relief pitcher has normally been throwing out in the bullpen for few minutes does he really need more pitches if the relief pitcher didn get pitches there wouldn be enough time to play hit the road jack the iron city relief pitcher commercial the announcers to detail to us exactly what drove the previous one from the game detailed biography both personal and statistical of the new guy throwing his pitches get really cool super slo mo pictures for diamond vision to put up by said pitchers name and stats caleb path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu agate agate dpassage from dpassage soda berkeley edu david paschich newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re hbp bb big cat date apr organization organization who cares you just gotta say go bears lines distribution na message id dpassage apr19185133 soda berkeley edu references mjones fenway apr19 ncar ucar edu qv9psinnsj6 lynx unm edu c5r7tv odin corp sgi com nntp posting host soda berkeley edu in reply to kubey sgi com message of mon apr gmt in article c5r7tv odin corp sgi com kubey sgi com ken kubey writes suppose foul ball machine like brett butler is pretty valuable but rather watch and root for the lower obp guys who can actually hit the ball and rather watch and root for team that scores lots of runs and wins games of course rooting for the rockies and andres anyway but that for irrational hometown reaons also root for frank thomas david paschich newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester rochester galileo cc rochester edu troi cc rochester edu kahn from kahn troi cc rochester edu james kahn subject re jewish broadcasters was jewish baseball players message id apr20 galileo cc rochester edu sender news galileo cc rochester edu nntp posting host troi cc rochester edu organization university of rochester rochester ny references apr17 princeton edu c5mu5z hh8 unix amherst edu apr17 princeton edu date tue apr gmt lines let not forget al michaels of do you believe in miracles fame jim newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu malgudi oar net news ans net newsgate watson ibm com yktnews watson ibm com hawnews watson ibm com fenway mjones from mjones watson ibm com mike jones subject re jack morris sender news hawnews watson ibm com nntp news poster message id mjones fenway date tue apr gmt reply to mjones donald aix kingston ibm com disclaimer this posting represents the poster views not necessarily those of ibm references apr18 mnemosyne cs du edu apr18 cs cornell edu apr19 newshub ariel yorku ca apr19 cs cornell edu apr19 ramsey cs laurentian ca nntp posting host fenway aix kingston ibm com organization ibm aix esa development kingston ny lines maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes in apr19 cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes in article apr19 newshub ariel yorku ca cs902043 ariel yorku ca shawn luddington writes hey valentine don see boston with any world series rings on their fingers yah so damn morris now has three and probably the hall of fame in his future he certainly didn earn his last one how many games did he blow in the world series all of the ones he started he certainly did earn it he was valuable member of the blue jay team not particularly in the world series during the season he was probably more valuable than say putting olerud out there to pitch but yeah he was valuable in getting them there in the postseason he sucked dirty canal water through straw the jays won in spite of morris much more than because of him therefore would have to say toronto easily made the best signing oh yes definitely therefore morris is better than clemens your definition of better refers to some measurement on scale that has nothing to do with winning ws rings umm roger return with us to those halcyon days of few postings ago where the poster valentine was replying to used of ws rings as measure of better the concept is called context and you should really become familiar with it someday the facts are that morris has shown us that he has what it takes to play on ws winning club clemens hasn unless this transaltes to clemens hasn gone into lou gorman office with large caliber handgun and refused to come out until he been traded to the jays at complete loss as to any possible meaning for it you can go on about what clemens has done in the past and claim that he is better than morris if you want to but the facts are that morris has shown us that he can win and clemens hasn what on earth does this mean over their careers clemens has won of the games he started morris per year clemens has averaged nearly wins morris just under would you grant the proposition that preventing the other team from scoring increases your chances of winning game if so then consider that clemens allows runs innings pitched morris allows nearly run more per nine innings in fact jack morris has never in his career had an era for single year as good as clemens career era but forget in the maynardverse there was obviously some mystical significance to buckner missing that grounder in had morris been on the sox it would have been routine groundout right whether or not clemens is better by your standard of measurement is totally meaningless the object of the game is not to compile high figures in statistics that you have chosen to feel are important the object of the game is to contribute to ws victories but this has been patiently explained to you many many times and you are either too stupid or too stubborn to grasp it speaking of stupid it has been patiently and not so patiently explained to you many times that attributing greatness to players based on the accomplishments of their teams makes about as much sense as claiming that racecar has the most attractive paint job because it won the race your continued failure to not only understand but even to intelligently reply to any of the arguments presented leads me to the conclusion that you must have spent few too many games in goal without mask don give me that shit if boston had alomar olerud henke and ward while toronto had rivera jack clark jeff reardon things would have looked little different last fall give credit where credit is due this lavishing of praise on morris makes me sick yes and the dog would have caught the rabbit too forget about what didn happen and open your eyes for once and look out there and see what is really happening forget about how morris shouldn have won with an era over when morris pitched last year the jays won stop crying about it and get on with life no one is crying the jays won and as team they certainly deserved to win at least the al east they performed well in two short series and won the world series and congratulate them for it as red sox fan hope they keep morris was happy when they picked up stewart and elated when they traded for darrin jackson you see unless you believe in some mystical link between morris and the offense you can hardly help but believe that the man was credited with so many wins last year because he got lucky luck runs out just like it did in when he pitched odd more innings than gave up exactly one earned run more than in and went seriously roger really like to hear your explanation of the difference between the morris and the morris which one was better pitcher and why did morris somehow learn how to win in the intervening ten years if so then why did he go in with minnesota with an era over half run lower than mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com don be humble you re not that great newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net spool mu edu torn pulp cs laurentian ca maynard from maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard subject re jack morris message id apr20 ramsey cs laurentian ca organization dept of computer science laurentian university sudbury on references apr19 newshub ariel yorku ca apr19 csd newshost stanford edu apr19 ramsey cs laurentian ca qvag7innsvo lynx unm edu date tue apr gmt lines in qvag7innsvo lynx unm edu kbos carina unm edu mitchell bose writes in article apr19 ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes manuel lee is better than jeff blauser again if you had lee on your team last year you would be wearing ring this year er no er yes if manny lee was on your team last year your team would have been the toronto blue jays my team is the albuquerque leftturns if manny lee were on my team would not be wearing ring nor would he if however were on manny lee team again if manny lee was on your team last year your team would not have been the albuquerque leftturns it would have been the toronto blue jays the toronto blue jays might well be wearing ring not that that such big deal everybody got ws ring from the jays win that the whole point isn it clemens didn get ring but morris did in the same way the blue jays did not win because jack morris was on the team jack morris won because he was on the blue jays it was team effort not an individual one exactly and morris was part of the team would the jays have won with clemens we will never know but we do know that the jays won with morris so how could you possibly say that clemens had better year no pitcher in baseball could have had better year than morris had last year cordially as always maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca so many morons rm and so little time path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu eng ufl edu usenet ufl edu travis csd harris com grouper mkt csd harris com amber tom from tom ssd csd harris com tom horsley newsgroups rec sport baseball subject the real way to speed up ballgames date apr organization harris computer systems division lines message id tom apr20125808 amber ssd csd harris com references c5she2 lkf ucdavis edu nntp posting host amber ssd csd harris com in reply to ez027993 chip ucdavis edu message of tue apr gmt the real way to speed up ballgames is for each home park owner to offer the following schedule of bonuses to players on both teams for all players who participated in the game offer for each minutes less than hours the game took if the game only took hours each player gets bonus of for all pitchers throwing or more full innings in the game extrapolate the number of pitches or attempted pickoffs to the number they would have thrown in full innings and offer for each number less than if the pitcher throws complete game with pitches and throws to first he would get suspect you could finance this the same way presidential campaigns are paid for offer each fan checkoff on his or her ticket that says want of the price of this ticket to go towards fast game bonuses domain tahorsley csd harris com usmail tom horsley uucp uunet hcx1 tahorsley kingbird circle delray beach fl censorship is the only form of obscenity wait forgot government tobacco subsidies newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet mnemosyne cs du edu nyx msilverm from msilverm nyx cs du edu mike silverman subject re let play the name game message id apr20 mnemosyne cs du edu sender usenet mnemosyne cs du edu netnews admin account organization university of denver dept of math comp sci references apr20 newshub ariel yorku ca date tue apr gmt lines nl chicago wait til next years new york bunch of egos with no chemistrys philedelphia overacheivers until mitch williams blows games pittsburg cheapskates montreal canadiens love that name st louis cardinals how boring miami marlins try telling tampa stpete that the marlins are florida san diego she going down men and children firsters los angeles disables listers san francisco get past number five and you are fines cincinatti underacheivers atlanta bills colorado pitching is of baseballers houston astonomicals al new york steinbrenners boston wow we re in firsters cleveland good hit no pitchers detroit lions hey they score every game also toronto god does jack morris stinkers baltimore we have great park and bankrupt owners milwaukee don drink the water drink the beer insteaders kansas city oh god not againers oakland gezz did the eck blow saves texas bashers california we won win but we ll sure as hell tryers seattle griffeys chicago we find way to lose agains minnesota marshmallow domers msilverm nyx cs du edu go cubs one likes to believe in the freedom of baseball geddy lee newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu utnut alchemy chem utoronto ca golchowy from golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca gerald olchowy subject re jays darrin jackson is nightmare message id apr20 alchemy chem utoronto ca organization university of toronto chemistry department references apr19 node hub org date tue apr gmt lines in article apr19 node hub org shadow node hub org jay chu writes jackson is bum and thought the jays were smart to get rid of gruber now we get equally bad frustrated pat gillick is over rated sure he did some good moves in the past but releasing wells although his temper sucks but he better than morris stewart dayley if the jays were dumping salaries to keep mill jackson dayley should be the one to go before wells of course they dumped dayley but it too late since dayley salary was guarenteed with wells the jays were only on the hook for of it give jackson break he lost about pounds with that flu he had when he was traded wells was already claimed by the tigers era with wins also the jimmy key and winfield situations pissed the hell outta me would you see championship club wanting to repeat so badly wanted to have such would rather have molitor than winfield winfield was just hogging all the credit and he was trying to soak the jays for year guarenteed contract great turnover no way look at the pittsburg penguins they got some aging players but didn make stupid trades to dump them cuz the fans love those players and they are still the core of the team anyways just want to say that if the jays go below this season won be surprised not jumping off the bandwagon just talking smart baseball no matter what still going to see most of the jays games even though damn frustrated the jays pitching can only get better molitor and alomar haven hit anything yet and the jays are still over gerald newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu utnut torn newshub ccs yorku ca newshub ariel yorku ca cs902043 from cs902043 ariel yorku ca shawn luddington subject let play the name game message id apr20 newshub ariel yorku ca sender cs902043 ariel yorku ca organization york university toronto canada date tue apr gmt lines how about changing team names post your choices here ll start how about the baltimore baseblazers san francisco quakes shawn go rangers newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu uunet ulowell cs ulowell edu stwombly from stwombly cs ulowell edu steve twombly subject re red sox mailing list query message id c5sgoh ulowell ulowell edu sender usenet ulowell ulowell edu news manager ulowell organization umass lowell computer science references sfoixme00wb2qbulsk andrew cmu edu date tue apr gmt lines in article sfoixme00wb2qbulsk andrew cmu edu robert ward rw23 andrew cmu edu writes friend in england is looking for red sox mailing list if you know of such list could you please send me mail with some info thank you bosox request world std com to mail to the list bosox world std com steve newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu malgudi oar net news ans net newsgate watson ibm com yktnews watson ibm com hawnews watson ibm com fenway mjones from mjones watson ibm com mike jones subject re jack morris sender news hawnews watson ibm com nntp news poster message id mjones fenway date tue apr gmt reply to mjones donald aix kingston ibm com disclaimer this posting represents the poster views not necessarily those of ibm references apr18 mnemosyne cs du edu apr18 cs cornell edu apr19 newshub ariel yorku ca apr19 csd newshost stanford edu apr19 ramsey cs laurentian ca nntp posting host fenway aix kingston ibm com organization ibm aix esa development kingston ny lines maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes it sure does and it all depends on the definition that you use for better yours is based on what could have been and mine is based on what really happened well actually most of ours is based on what really happened and yours is based on some fantasy of how it happened but that ok understand you have hockey background stats like plus minus make rbi look good is it viola fault that boston had no offense is it because of morris that the blue jays had such strong offense don tell me that morris has this magical ability to cause the offensive players to score more runs this is the perfect example of your problem you are isolating viola contribution from the rest of the team efforts you can only do this if you can say for sure what the team would have done without viola only then can you compare but you cannot know how the team would have done without viola your analysis is fallacious ok how about straigh answer then here very simele question to which sure fair number of us are very interesed in the answer to please answer yes or no roger can pitcher cause the offensive players on his team to score more runs al only please for anyone else following along it is well known and demonstrable fact that team win loss record is closely related to the number of runs the team scores and the number the team allows it not definite hard and fast function but there is definitely correlation in fact as rule of thumb if teams and both score runs and team allows runs for every runs fewer than that team allows it will win another game so for instance if we look at the toronto blue jays we find that they scored runs and allowed of which morris allowed all other things being equal if frank viola with his era had replaced jack morris for the innings morris threw plausible since viola threw for boston the red jays would have allowed about fewer runs or enough for more wins now that doesn take into account that viola pitched half his innings in fenway which is harder park to pitch in particularly for lefthander than skydome so um roger unless you really do believe that pitcher can somehow affect the number of runs his team scores could you enlighten us to the fallacy in this analysis clearly it would be foolhardy to claim that viola would necessarily have put up if he had been on the jay last year but that is not the claim we look at what the actual performances were and evaluate viola as better than morris in the sense that had morris performed as viola did his team would have been better off it takes an open mind to really truly understand what is happening out here in the real world guys this is true but not so open that your brain falls out mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com computer if you don open that exit hatch this moment shall zap straight off to your major data banks and reprogram you with very large ax got that zaphod beeblebrox newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net noc near net das news harvard edu spdcc steamer clam com sam from sam steamer clam com sam mandelbaum subject yankee thoughts sender sam clam com sam mandelbaum message id apr20 clam com date tue apr gmt organization clam associates cambridge ma lines yes everyone seems to be in agreement that the yankees are finally moving in the right direction they should finish over this year and maybe even be in the pennent race in august however would take back few moves the jim abbott trade think abbott is not only an inspirational person but great pitcher also he could win the cy young this year but he won because the right side of the yanks infield isn good enough so why was this not good trade jt snow how many rookies have been able to step in and immediately have the impact that he has had so far on the angels know it early but if you ve seen this kid hit field or talk you can just tell that he is going to be tremendous player the yanks should have kept him what about mattingly you ask well it great that the yanks have taken care of him and remained loyal but he years older than snow and just doesn have the same bat speed as before his back injury it shame but as yankee fan who wants to see the best yankee team take snow over mattingly at first the yanks also gave up two promising propects with snow for abbott besides with domingo jean brien taylor wickman militello and sterling hitchcock they are just loaded with propects know abbotts only but this was too much to give up believe george forced this trade because he believes and he right that abbott will be big hit in ny however like to see the yankees build baseball team not an amusement show wade boggs live in boston and like wade lot but his career is winding down and would rather see the yanks start to develop long term solution hensley muelins russ davis velarde besides wade just doesn have any range what shame about charlie hayes huh spike owen see wade boggs much rather see them develop dave silvestri or whoever wade and spike next to each other in the infield is going to raise the yankee staff era point and these guys are on the down sides of their careers danny tartabull yes he put up some tremendous numbers and it nice to think about what he could do if he were ever healthy all year but he never is we should expect games max out of him meanwhile gerald williams is playing at columbus and paul neil is playing left field believe neil led nl outfielders in assists last year and tartabull is poor defensive outfielder what basically getting at is the yanks are moving in the right direction but are not ready to win pennent this year they should at the gm level be planning for or world series this means getting the younger players experience in the majors now so they will be ready in year or two afraid that all this stuff wreaks of george steinbrenner certainly the boggs deal was all george it looks like george is planning the right mix of veterans and young players to win world series now the veterans are always available and can be added at any time like boston did this year develop the young players first then add the one or two veterans or in the yankees case just keep them let all us yankee fans hope that george doesn dismantle the terrific job stick and company have done building the yankee organization back into one of respect really afraid that he will trade whoever it takes to patch holes today relief pitching for example george must realize that the yankees rebuilding process is still one or two years away have patience george and we will all enjoy the future fire bucky and trade the kids and it baseball hell for all loyal yankee fans for long time sam not militello or millitello mandelbaum newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net gatech news ans net newsgate watson ibm com hawnews watson ibm com fenway mjones from mjones watson ibm com mike jones subject re so far so good the red sox sender news hawnews watson ibm com nntp news poster message id mjones fenway date tue apr gmt reply to mjones donald aix kingston ibm com disclaimer this posting represents the poster views not necessarily those of ibm references apr19 galileo cc rochester edu nntp posting host fenway aix kingston ibm com organization ibm aix esa development kingston ny lines ec003b uhura cc rochester edu wizard writes have posted two new postings on the net since discovered how to use it and both times received redicule for predicting the red sox as high as third in the al east id like to hear why it is people dont think the sox can be as high as third this year here are some of my observations well had you been bit less exuberant in both the tone and substance of your predictions the responses would probably have been bit more measured be that as it may roger and frank are in vintage form and the sox are rresponding to them clemens is always in this form and viola isn really performing beyond what might reasonably have been expected how do you know that the sox are responding to them and not to al bumbry hobson or my most likely suspect new hitting coach mike easler certainly am more likely to give easler credit for mo vaughhn hot start than clemens or viola greenwell is hitting as he did before his injuries this was the optimistic scenario but not unreasonably so he hasn shown much power yet though dawson is providing the leadership and some hitting they need from him how can you tell that dawson is providing the leadership perhaps it calderon perhaps it clemens and viola maybe hobson is finally showing those people skills he was supposed to have when they hired him or maybe it all myth and dawson has been hitting reasonably well but not as well as greenwell vaughn cooper or fletcher russell is finishing well in three games why don we look at this one again in say july fletcher is hitting well as leadoff hitter bit better than could reasonably have been expected but don forget that zupcic looked like wade boggs lite for about ab last year beware of small sample sizes still if fletcher hits as well as he did last year he be great improvement over any sox leadoff hitter from last year be aware that his career numbers seem to indicate that he puts up good numbers as long as he doesn have to make more than ab or so in year cooper is hitting well think he ll be better then boggs in the field and just as good at the plate ummm sorry no can buy the in the field part and think he ll be better at the plate than the boggs but in general cooper while he ll be pretty good hitter couldn carry boggs jockstrap with little luck he could be the fourth or fifth best in the al martinez boggs ventura and palmer will all be better if the sox pitch like last year they have better pitchiong staff now and hit like they are so far they coiuld run away with thee division but since think that their hitting and pitching may not be up to the challenge of running away with the division think that they win be over and at least third if not second or first see here is where you make that quick left turn off into the aether is plausible third is not unlikely but phrases like could run away with the division are likely to get you visit from the men in the white coats it not really clear that their staff is better than last year if russell does well darwin doesn go on the dl and hesketh doesn pitch just barely well enough to avoid losing his spot in the rotation they could be better on the other hand if hesketh pitches miserably and they re too stupid to move him to the pen and bring up conroy or somebody fossas continues to pitch dismally but they keep giving him innings becasue he lefty and russell explodes they could be pretty bad mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com god is comedian playing to an audience that is afraid to laugh mark twain newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu csus edu netcom com mss from mss netcom com mark singer subject re mlb nba message id mssc5skk0 jt6 netcom com organization netcom online communications services login guest references rvesterm vma cc nd edu mssc5qrrz netcom com rvesterm vma cc nd edu date tue apr gmt lines in article rvesterm vma cc nd edu rvesterm vma cc nd edu writes in article mssc5qrrz netcom com mss netcom com mark singer says why would owners decrease ticket prices when they obviously get lots of people to pay the price they re asking don think that it is obvious that lots of people are willing to pay the price sure someone out there in net land has some facts about trends in attendance regarding percentage of capacity sold but even if the trends are relatively flat you have to consider what is happening on team by team basis when the tv money dries up franchises will be seeking to supplant the lost revenues from alternative sources one of the best sources may be ticket sales example the dodgers the dodgers can count on strong base of season ticket sales and probably believe that they have the ability to raise prices without hindering revenues certainly think that is true example the padres they will be lucky to average fans game this year if they raise prices less if they want to increase their overall revenue base the best thing they can do is put winning team on the field but given that won happen it won they can probably make more money by lowering ticket prices and running frequent promotions will they do that have no idea but they won increase prices because it won work for them even assuming that you have some strange power to make the owners decrease ticket prices that does not decrease the tv contract the only strange powers at work here are the forces of the market place each team market is somewhat different and each owner is going to be faced with unique set of circumstances about how to deal with those market forces as buiness manager would never want to lower my prices but sometimes that strategy is necessary and sometimes it works you have to consider everything if you want continued success the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu csus edu netcom com mss from mss netcom com mark singer subject re game length was re braves update message id mssc5skw9 kb1 netcom com organization netcom online communications services login guest references apr19 adobe com apr20 wvnvms wvnet edu apr20 adobe com date tue apr gmt lines in article apr20 adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes haven been to many games have you there also difference in how tolerant am of long games if watching them on the tube and if going there in person for me going to an game has become major commitment of time one that not willing to make that often the length of their games is costing the revenue from me stopped going to games some years ago while still lived inthe bay area for exactly this reason believe the length of their games has been institutionalized by larussa duncan they encourage their pitchers to be overly deliberate to throw to first often to study the catchers signals and so on and almost every hitter takes step out of the box after every pitch this is not imo coincidence this is planned and hate it as for the gant situation did not see the game or the replays but do wonder what if gant had requested time out would hirschbeck have been required to give it to him could he have denied the requst for all he the ump knew gant could have had dirt in his eye mark singer mss netcom com newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net wupost dsuvax dsu edu columbia dsu edu kesslerm from kesslerm columbia dsu edu michael kessler subject box scores message id kesslerm columbia dsu edu lines sender usenet dsuvax dsu edu usenet proxy posting account organization dakota state university date fri apr gmt lines was wondering if anyone types in the box scores each day am at college and am not able to get them till the weekend would be thankful if someone could mail the twins box scores every so often also am looking for twins schedule kesslerm columbia dsu edu from lynch hpcc01 corp hp com howard lynch date thu apr gmt subject re phillies sign mark davis message id hpcc01 corp hp com organization the hp corporate notes server path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net spool mu edu sdd hp com hpscit sc hp com hplextra hpcc05 hpcc01 lynch newsgroups rec sport baseball references c5fx5b a8x news udel edu lines had heard the rumors about la cin hou and sd all being interested in mark davis so it doesn surprise me that team had to give up something and cash to actually get him lynch mob ps anyone else draft this guy really did and got loud cry of when will you ever give up on this guy from boell hpcc01 corp hp com donald boell date thu apr gmt subject re rockies spoon feed game to mets message id hpcc01 corp hp com organization the hp corporate notes server path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net spool mu edu sdd hp com hpscit sc hp com hplextra hpcc05 hpcc01 boell newsgroups rec sport baseball references apr14 colorado edu lines is it just me or does bichette look totally lost in the outfield he misplayed martinez fly out into double against the expos misplayed alou single into triple alou tagged out at rd after over sliding the bag and now he misplays another out into run triple add in his wonderful batting average and we have one heck of player don boell from boell hpcc01 corp hp com donald boell date thu apr gmt subject rockies two more errors more walks message id hpcc01 corp hp com organization the hp corporate notes server path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com hpscit sc hp com hplextra hpcc05 hpcc01 boell newsgroups rec sport baseball lines name pos ab hr rbi rs sb avg boston of galarraga tatum cole cf young hayes murphy of bichette rf clark lf girardi castilla ss benavides ss young of pitchers totals name ip er bb era wayne aldred smith ashby neid parrett blair henry ruffin reed holmes totals path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech prism gt0523e from gt0523e prism gatech edu michael andre mule newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re torre the worst manager message id hydra gatech edu date apr gmt references hydra gatech edu distribution usa organization georgia institute of technology lines in article hydra gatech edu gt7469a prism gatech edu brian landmann writes later in the ninth inning with the bases loaded and two outs he puts lankford hitter with power in as pinch runner and uses luis alicea hitter with no power as pinch hitter what the hell is he thinking didn alicea get hit though see all at the ballyard go braves chop chop michael mule michael andre mule georgia institute of technology atlanta georgia uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism gt0523e internet gt0523e prism gatech edu newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu csc ti com tilde csc ti com mksol kerr dseg ti com kkerr from kkerr mk kevin kerr subject re wfan message id kkerr mk lines sender usenet mksol dseg ti com usenet news nntp posting host kerr dseg ti com organization engineering automation references apr15 virginia edu c5jc3z knd news udel edu date fri apr gmt in article c5jc3z knd news udel edu philly ravel udel edu robert hite writes from philly ravel udel edu robert hite subject re wfan date thu apr gmt in article apr15 virginia edu jja2h virginia edu writes does any one out there listen to wfan for those of you who do not know what am talking about it is an all sports radio staion in new york on clear night the signal reaches up and down the east coast in particular want to know how len berman and mike lupica show is go to school in virginia so can listen when there are on during the day just wondering the fan is an okay sports radio station but doesn come close to the ultimate in sports radio wip in philadelphia the signal might not be as powerful but then again only stations in new york feel obligated to pollute everyone else airwaves with bunch of hoodlum mets fans complaining hours day wip took two of your best sports jockeys too jody macdonald and steve fredericks wip is rockin with sports talk from am till midnight check it out anytime your within few hours of philadelphia if not mistaken wip has the highest sports talk ratings in the nation from dallas and you have alot of nerve saying that wfan has bunch of hoodlum mets fans during the football season the local cowboy station here had the wip on several times for simultanious broadcasts have never heard bigger bunch of low intellect bed wetting obnoxious woofing cranial deformed assholes in my entire life the iq of the average eagles fan must be in the range at best and they have been known to be big droolers please no flames let see if it works for me bob kevin kerr kkerr mkcase1 dseg ti com member since go yankees go dolphins strolling through cyberspace sniffing the electric wind path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu darwin sura net uvaarpa gems vcu edu cabell vcu edu csc2imd newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re phils nl east not so weak message id apr16 cabell vcu edu from csc2imd cabell vcu edu ian derby date fri apr gmt expires tue apr gmt references apr15 guvax acc georgetown edu steph pegasus cs uiuc edu organization virginia commonwealth university lines that very true live in richmond home of the aaa richmond braves and they have this guy ryan klesko who hit hr at home last year now that doesn sound like whole lot but the way the diamond is built home runs are rarity in fact ron gant brian hunter and david justice all proved they could hit in richmond when they were sent to the majors they never came back if you can hit in richmond you can hit anywhere so far after beating scranton phillies in the first game the best team in aaa history has been rather underwhelming too many expectations guess newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu rpi warren1c its rpi edu feszcm from feszcm warren1c its rpi edu michael jaroslaw feszczyszyn subject re fenway gif message id s5mvc rpi edu nntp posting host warren1c its rpi edu reply to feszcm rpi edu organization rensselaer polytechnic institute troy ny references c5jb3d nt umassd edu date thu apr gmt lines in article c5jb3d nt umassd edu acsddc smucs1 umassd edu writes was wondering if anyone had any kind of fenway park gif would appreciate it if someone could send me one thanks in advance dan me too and any yankee stadium gifs as well please thanx in advance mike feszczyszyn newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu wsu cs mathsun dfl from dfl math wayne edu david frohardt lane subject re rbi was notes on jays indians message id apr16 cs wayne edu sender usenet cs wayne edu usenet news organization wayne state university math department detroit references c5hxlk fix andy bgsu edu blue cis pitt edu apr15 news acns nwu edu distribution na date fri apr gmt lines in article apr15 news acns nwu edu edo casbah acns nwu edu edward ouellette writes me too rbi are worthless stat of course so is stolen bases because sometimes runners are in front of player that would otherwise run and of course pitchers pitch differently with different people on different bases so batting average slugging and obp out too hmmm guess homers would not count then either my point rbi might not be perfect stat but nothing is and no stat or lack of can tell me there are no clutch hitters maybe no stat can tell me either but some people are just know it but why would you want to use rbi rbi is an attempt to measure is some combination of clutch hitting and power hitting if you believe in clutch hitting then look at how the guy hit with risp if you want to see how good of slugger he is then look at his slugging average in terms of evaluating players rbi totals are better than nothing but why use them when so many better stats are out there david frohardt lane dfl math wayne edu go tigers lions pistons red wings and wolverines newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech darwin sura net udel louie eplrx7 eplrx7 es dupont com tkevans from tkevans eplrx7 es dupont com tim evans subject re mcrae is re torre the worst manager message id tkevans eplrx7 es dupont com reply to tkevans eplrx7 es dupont com organization dupont engineering physics laboratory newsreader nn version references hydra gatech edu bb1c589 dak988s vma smsu edu ext apr15 mccall com date fri apr gmt lines scott mccall com scott davis writes kc news was doing report on that they said that mcrae is really batting coach and not manager but for some reason he took the job whatever the reason the royals need new manager now while it is too late and have jesse jackson picket the stadium tim evans du pont de nemours co tkevans eplrx7 es dupont com experimental station box evanstk at a1 at esvax wilmington delaware newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech darwin sura net udel louie eplrx7 eplrx7 es dupont com tkevans from tkevans eplrx7 es dupont com tim evans subject re royals message id tkevans eplrx7 es dupont com reply to tkevans eplrx7 es dupont com organization dupont engineering physics laboratory newsreader nn version references randall moose date fri apr gmt lines randall informix com randall rhea writes the royals are darkness they are the void of our time when they play shame descends upon the land like cold front from canada they are humiliation to all who have lived and all who shall ever live they are utterly and completely doomed other than that guess they re ok you must not be old enough to remember the in kc tim evans du pont de nemours co tkevans eplrx7 es dupont com experimental station box evanstk at a1 at esvax wilmington delaware newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com emory sol ctr columbia edu destroyer cs ubc ca uw beaver barring from barring cs washington edu david barrington subject moe berg message id apr20 beaver cs washington edu sender news beaver cs washington edu usenet news system organization computer science engineering of washington seattle date tue apr gmt lines npr this morning had an interview with linda mccarthy name possibly garbled by me an official historian for the cia she has won an emmy for research on moe berg for tv documentary which know from nothing but which sounds good she said that among other things berg was the principal spy for the oss cia wwii precursor spying on axis atomic programs because of his physics background and language skills she said that during the war he met with heisenberg in switzerland and had instructions to shoot heisenberg if the germans were close to us in bomb research he concluded they were two years behind and didn shoot him have heard elsewhere that heisenberg deliberately misled the nazi bomb program but don know how reliable this is unfortunately npr didn mention any kind of book she writing certainly buy it in case you re wondering about baseball relevance berg was longtime mlb backup catcher he was member of an mlb all star team that toured japan in presumably not because of his baseball prowess but because he was one of the few americans much less mlb players who spoke japanese photos he took of tokyo on that trip were later used to plan bombing raids according to mccarthy dave mb path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net bogus sura net darwin sura net wvnvms wvnet edu nflynn from nflynn wvnvms wvnet edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject game length was re braves update message id apr20 wvnvms wvnet edu date apr edt references apr17 ulkyvx louisville edu news duke edu apr19 adobe com organization west virginia network for educational telecomputing lines in article apr19 adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes stuff about ron gant incident deleted reasonable umpire would do as he been instructed to do this season get the batters back in the box sooner to try to cut down on the ridiculous length of games for one am glad to see this happen agree that hirschbeck was just doing what he was instructed to do and also that gant should have listened to him however what is with this policy of trying to speed up the games you are the first person non mediot have seen endorse this policy have no problem with the length of games at all and am tired of the espn crowd and other announcers bitching about it have never been in ballpark filled with people looking at their watches and shouting hurry up if cough up big bucks for ticket don mind game that last more than really don understand it games are longer now for several reasons more pitching changes more basestealing and throws to first etc think very small factor is the increased time it takes jose canseco deion sanders insert fancy showboat ballplayer here to arrange their jewelry prior to stepping in the batter box my impression is that sportcasters and writers have made this an issue because they like shorter games they get to head back to hotel bar eat steaks get drunk tell stupid jokes with their pals and chase stewardesses around the bar sure they want the game over with print journalists have slightly more legitimate reason for wanting faster games they have deadlines the espn guys on baseball tonight drive me crazy they constantly harp on this primarily because they often have to work late when the game goes longer than maybe am just ne er do well with nothing better to do but would like to hear reasons why the longer games upset you as parenthetical note it seems the league is in any case fighting losing battle this year the increased offense thus far will certainly spoil any hopes of getting the games over with more quickly nick flynn newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech news ans net newsgate watson ibm com yktnews watson ibm com hawnews watson ibm com fenway mjones from mjones watson ibm com mike jones subject re dopson pitches first shutout red sox win sender news hawnews watson ibm com nntp news poster message id mjones fenway date tue apr gmt reply to mjones donald aix kingston ibm com disclaimer this posting represents the poster views not necessarily those of ibm references qupmf dp transfer stratus com c5r5vt news cso uiuc edu nntp posting host fenway aix kingston ibm com organization ibm aix esa development kingston ny lines cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes jmann vineland pubs stratus com jim mann writes john dopson pitched his first major league shutout as the red sox beat the white sox all sox runs came in the th inning which featured big hits from among others vaughan and greenwell the sox are now and the first team in the majors to win games yes it ll never last but god it good while it here someone told me this game started at cdt is this true who in their right mind would go to game on monday at am well there holiday in massachusetts called patriots day three things happen on patriots day almost all businesses are closed the sox play morning game and they run the boston marathon mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com there is nothing so deadly as not to hold up to people the opportunity to do great and wonderful things if we wish to stimulate them in an active way dr harold urey nobel laureate in chemistry newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net gatech news ans net newsgate watson ibm com hawnews watson ibm com fenway mjones from mjones watson ibm com mike jones subject re hbp bb big cat sender news hawnews watson ibm com nntp news poster message id mjones fenway date tue apr gmt distribution na reply to mjones donald aix kingston ibm com disclaimer this posting represents the poster views not necessarily those of ibm references mjones fenway apr19 ncar ucar edu qv9psinnsj6 lynx unm edu c5r7tv odin corp sgi com nntp posting host fenway aix kingston ibm com organization ibm aix esa development kingston ny lines kubey sgi com ken kubey writes and finally like to point out that many high obp guys draw their walks more because pitchers are afraid to throw strike to them than because they have great eye this comes up periodically and just don get it take for example mark mcgwire he walked times in if that not potential great example of what you re talking about then don know what is now let look at what happens when mcgwire doesn walk of the time he made an out of the time he hit single of the time he hit double of the time he hit homer now you re pitching against mcgwire would you trade walks for homers double singles and outs would why give him the base when you can get him out times out of then there are guys like alex cole who has career obp even though he never had batting average over he did hit in ab in or hit single home run yep that right he never hit homer in ab through the end of who be afraid to throw strike to him mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com ve never been prejudiced by sex entertained yes but never prejudiced justice dan snow walter matthau path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu pitt edu dtate from dtate pitt edu david tate newsgroups rec sport baseball subject mvp revisited keywords mlb message id blue cis pitt edu date apr gmt references r141n a32 agate berkeley edu sender news pitt edu organization department of industrial engineering lines tim shippert recently posted summaries of last year defensive average stats in terms of the linear weights estimated run value of defensive performances compared to league average ve combined those with my position adjusted mlv numbers to come up with first approximation total run values for players last year we can use these as springboard for reconsideration of the mvp award major caveats these numbers include no defensive park adjustment so if san diego really is just question of odd scoring or gopher holes in the infield that will cause some inaccuracies the offensive numbers are position adjusted but not park adjusted so we have to deflate some and inflate others to be fair finally we still don know what to do about catchers and have no idea how to evaluate the defensive contributions of tony phillips and bip roberts having said that there are still some surprises let look national league first all numbers in total runs contributed over the season player offense defense total sandberg bonds walker justice daulton larkin grace as see it these are the legitimate mvp candidates from last season if you deflate sandberg offense wee bit for playing in wrigley you get essentially dead heat had bonds been his usual defensive self it wouldn have been close but that apparently wasn the case darren daulton needs or more defensive runs to make up the offensive difference and couldn tell you whether that easy or impossible good case could be made for any of sandberg bonds or daulton as top dude my personal vote bonds sandberg daulton walker justice in the american league player offense defense total ventura martinez anderson thomas henderson raines tettleton ok let see show of hands how many of you picked robin ventura as top player in the al last year certainly didn but have hard time arguing against him at this point yes know these numbers are only approximate but that big gap between him and the guy also those of you who thought rickey henderson stank last year are out of your minds once again there catcher in the ointment if calling game is as important as it might be runs is easy to make up or give away take guess folks don think we can do any better than that my personal vote excluding pitchers ventura tettleton anderson martinez henderson big frank thomas fan but have to admit to bias in favor of balanced offensive defensive contribution which should have higher leverage in record than an equal shift that is lots of offense with negative defense for the record carlos baerga roberto alomar forget it it wash let me also take this opportunity to admit that was grossly wrong regarding don mattingly defense this past season don recovered brilliantly from his weak and to end up with mattingly runs which is clearly an above average first baseman however it still runs behind mark mcgwire runs behind frank thomas and runs behind john olerud on the other hand it ahead of rafael palmeiro cecil fielder and every other al first baseman not yet mentioned david tate dtate pitt edu greetings sir with bat not quick member iie orsa tims sabr hands not soft eye not discerning and in denver they call you slugger the big catullus galarraga and compare you to my own mattingly newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net sol ctr columbia edu destroyer cs ubc ca uw beaver barring from barring cs washington edu david barrington subject red sox choke contest message id apr20 beaver cs washington edu sender news beaver cs washington edu usenet news system organization computer science engineering of washington seattle date tue apr gmt lines to encourage the great tradition of red sox negativism am having contest to predict the magnitude of the sox fall from their current heights you must decide first whether the sox will be at again at any time during this year then you must predict either their record the first time they re at if they are or their final record if they stay above the rest of the year so valentine earlier prediction would go as resend it if you were serious val espn pointed out last night that the last sox start better than this was in when they finished in sixth place so email me your guess either at barring cs washington edu or directly replying to this post entries close pm pdt on wed apr dave mb newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester rochester cornell batcomputer caen zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu csus edu netcom com mzimmers from mzimmers netcom com michael zimmers subject re game length was re braves update message id mzimmersc5sllk ld9 netcom com organization netcom online communications services login guest references apr19 adobe com apr20 wvnvms wvnet edu apr93 vax clarku edu date tue apr gmt lines in article apr93 vax clarku edu hhenderson vax clarku edu writes nflynn wvnvms wvnet edu writes however what is with this policy of trying to speed up the games you are the first person non mediot have seen endorse this policy have no problem with the length of games at all and am tired of the espn crowd and other announcers bitching about it have never been in ballpark filled with people looking at their watches and shouting hurry up if cough up big bucks for ticket don mind game that last more than really don understand it agree with nick what the big deal about long games if you want to watch baseball there that much more baseball to watch and yes baseball includes the space between plays as well as the plays themselves first longer game in no way suggests more baseball to watch unless you include watching the grass grow as baseball the lengthier games are so because of batters stepping out of the box pitchers taking longer between pitches and excessive trips to the mound by managers and pitching coaches and while it true that the gaps between plays can be interesting this is only true when they don become extra long quickly pitched games can grab and hold your attention much better bring back the two hour baseball game and the three and half hour golf game with it michael zimmers voice softhelp suppliers to software developers data path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu pitt edu dsinc ub acsu buffalo edu ubvmsb cc buffalo edu v085f2wd from v085f2wd ubvmsb cc buffalo edu theodore kury newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re lame dumb and useless question message id c5smau b4j acsu buffalo edu date apr gmt references rvesterm vma cc nd edu sender nntp acsu buffalo edu organization university at buffalo lines news software vax vms vnews nntp posting host ubvmsb cc buffalo edu in article rvesterm vma cc nd edu rvesterm vma cc nd edu writes ok there are three balls on this batter the pitcher proceeds to bean the batter is that walk or hit by pitch bob vesterman hbp but it reminds of my favorite apochryphal sp don drysdale story when ordered to intentionally walk batter who had hot dogged on him in two previous at bats drysdale reared back with the first pitch and drilled him right in the ribs his manager came storming out of the dugout and yelled what did you do that for drysdale growled back what are you complaining for saved you three pitches incidentally if this is true love to know the other people involved ted kury one man stands and the wall cracks and the wall suny at buffalo cracks and the wall cracks and the wall comes dept of economics crumbling down anthrax path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu pitt edu dtate from dtate pitt edu david tate newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re how to speed up games marginally realistic message id blue cis pitt edu date apr gmt references c5she2 lkf ucdavis edu sender news pitt edu organization department of industrial engineering lines ez027993 chip ucdavis edu gary built like villanova huckabay said baseball games take about in the nl and just shade under hours in the al that just too damn long don like to play in hour games much less watch game for that long my butt falls asleep and if watching on tv ll channel surf between pitches catching colorized versions of mr ed leave it to beaver and those wacky nieporents on nick at nite but gary for certain sofa tubers like myself this is an advantage can watch the pirates on kbl the mets on wwor the braves on tbs and the mediots on espn at the same time without missing anything if something impressive happens ll catch the replay so see essentially games in hours instead of game in hours what deal insert smileys as desired david tate dtate pitt edu greetings sir with bat not quick member iie orsa tims sabr hands not soft eye not discerning and in denver they call you slugger the big catullus galarraga and compare you to my own mattingly newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net news ans net newsgate watson ibm com yktnews watson ibm com eclipse kime from kime mongoose torolab ibm com edward kim subject re relative value of players sender usenet eclipse torolab ibm com eclipse sysadm message id kime apr20133127 mongoose torolab ibm com in reply to jle world std com message of tue apr gmt date tue apr gmt lines references c5ro4h lww world std com organization ibm toronto lab in article c5ro4h lww world std com jle world std com joe leonard writes before folks jump on me let me ask the net would the jays have won the al with good pitcher from aaa in place of morris given his run support how about an average ml pitcher can believe that morris performance in the playoffs and series had large positive impact on the jays performance know it very trendy nowadays to dump on morris but let give credit where credit is due it is doubtful that the blue jays would have won the al east without morris last year when the team went for the month of august and all the other starters were being shelled and milwaukee was making charge morris went with pretty good era can remember exactly also let not underestimate the importance his innings to save the bullpen every fifth day if he didn help us win the al east forget about the pennent and the world series his run support was high runs but so was stottlemyer runs and he won only games do remember morris winning an inordinate number of and ballgames but this is to his credit he pitched only as good as he needed to be when he was up in ballgame he just put it in cruise control and threw the ball up there and let the batters get themseleves out hate this expression an inexperienced pitcher would wear himself out trying to make perfect pitches to keep his era down but morris being veteran pitcher knows that winning is the only thing that really matters in baseball by saving himself he was able to reach back for that little extra hate this too when the game was on the line yes morris is crapping out big time this year but let not change history to suit the present btw think he should be put in the bullpen it would be embarrassing veteran pitcher which cito would never do but his era is how much more can he be embarrassed from where sit ll let others have the excellent players ll settle for good enough and the ring ditto joe leonard jle world std com eddie newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu darwin sura net ra klinker from klinker itd nrl navy mil eric klinker subject re jays darrin jackson is nightmare message id c5smzy bde ra nrl navy mil sender usenet ra nrl navy mil organization naval research laboratory references apr19 node hub org apr20 alchemy chem utoronto ca date tue apr gmt lines give jackson break he lost about pounds with that flu he had when he was traded dj was popular player in san diego derek bell was not faring well in the clubhouse at toronto so no matter how bad he looks now still think it was steal for the jays just from the perspective of team chemistry no statistic can describe it sorry statheads and since there are so many new faces in the clubhouse think the jays are still trying to find it insert the same comment into the jack morris clemens ws ring string yet at first was sad to see derek go still anticipating all of the talent they raved about at the beginning of last season glad to see him faring well for the padres though eric path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester rochester cornell batcomputer caen malgudi oar net zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net gatech prism re4 from re4 prism gatech edu russell earnest newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re braves giants case study of their weaknesses summary he hurt message id hydra gatech edu date apr gmt references quos2inns8n mephisto gatech edu news duke edu pyramid pyramid com distribution usa organization georgia institute of technology lines in article pyramid pyramid com pcollac pyrnova mis pyramid com paul collacchi writes btw what is the story with brian hunter is he in the dog house paul collacchi no brian hurt his hand think he started saturday game but was taken out it far too early to populate the dog house although bedrock was seen with milkbone read that to memory and process it russell earnest georgia institute of technology atlanta georgia uucp allegra amd hplabs seismo ut ngp gatech prism re4 arpa russell earnest housing gatech edu newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester rochester cornell batcomputer caen usenet cis ufl edu usenet ufl edu gatech howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu news cso uiuc edu ux4 cso uiuc edu rkoffler from rkoffler ux4 cso uiuc edu bighelmet subject re moe berg date tue apr gmt message id c5snt1 ate news cso uiuc edu references apr20 beaver cs washington edu sender usenet news cso uiuc edu net noise owner organization university of illinois at urbana lines barring cs washington edu david barrington writes npr this morning had an interview with linda mccarthy name possibly garbled by me an official historian for the cia she has won an emmy for research on moe berg for tv documentary which know from nothing but which sounds good she said that among other things berg was the principal spy for the oss cia wwii precursor spying on axis atomic programs because of his physics background and language skills she said that during the war he met with heisenberg in switzerland and had instructions to shoot heisenberg if the germans were close to us in bomb research he concluded they were two years behind and didn shoot him have heard elsewhere that heisenberg deliberately misled the nazi bomb program but don know how reliable this is unfortunately npr didn mention any kind of book she writing certainly buy it dave mb there is great book out called they also served which is about the ballplayers during wwii there is some info on berg in there it also has info on pete gray one armed outfielder and other players of the era because of the draft many players during the war were those who were exempt from the draft for medical reasons there are some very interesting stories in the book it is very well written and would suggest reading it to anyone with an interest in baseball rob koffler you live day to day and rkoffler ux4 cso uiuc edu dream about tomorrow don henley path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net bogus sura net darwin sura net sgiblab sgigate olivea gossip pyramid com pyramid infmx miracle mcole from mcole miracle informix com mary cole newsgroups rec sport baseball subject seeking all star game info message id apr20 informix com date apr gmt sender news informix com usenet news reply to mcole miracle informix com organization informix software lines ok ok ok first my apologies for perhaps being untimely with this subject material and perhaps overly optimistic in my request but here goes anyhow very interested in finding out how might be able to get two tickets for the all star game in baltimore this year my very aged folks live about miles away and know it would be great thing for them to attend the game went with them and my grandfather who got me into baseball as small child to the all star game in dc many years ago although now in the sf bay area love to be able to treat my folks to this game it absolutely the last chance they ever have to attend this ame locally any info would be greatly appreciated mary cole mcole informix com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net bogus sura net darwin sura net sgiblab sgigate olivea gossip pyramid com pyramid infmx miracle mcole from mcole miracle informix com mary cole newsgroups rec sport baseball subject seeking all star game info message id apr20 informix com date apr gmt sender news informix com usenet news reply to mcole miracle informix com organization informix software lines ok ok ok first my apologies for perhaps being untimely with this subject material and perhaps overly optimistic in my request but here goes anyhow very interested in finding out how might be able to get two tickets for the all star game in baltimore this year my very aged folks live about miles away and know it would be great thing for them to attend the game went with them and my grandfather who got me into baseball as small child to the all star game in dc many years ago although now in the sf bay area love to be able to treat my folks to this game it absolutely the last chance they ever have to attend this ame locally any info would be greatly appreciated mary cole mcole informix com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net bogus sura net darwin sura net sgiblab sgigate olivea gossip pyramid com pyramid infmx miracle mcole from mcole miracle informix com mary cole newsgroups rec sport baseball subject seeking all star game info message id apr20 informix com date apr gmt sender news informix com usenet news reply to mcole miracle informix com organization informix software lines ok ok ok first my apologies for perhaps being untimely with this subject material and perhaps overly optimistic in my request but here goes anyhow very interested in finding out how might be able to get two tickets for the all star game in baltimore this year my very aged folks live about miles away and know it would be great thing for them to attend the game went with them and my grandfather who got me into baseball as small child to the all star game in dc many years ago although now in the sf bay area love to be able to treat my folks to this game it absolutely the last chance they ever have to attend this ame locally any info would be greatly appreciated mary cole mcole informix com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu usc elroy jpl nasa gov ames olivea gossip pyramid com pyramid infmx miracle mcole from mcole miracle informix com mary cole newsgroups rec sport baseball subject seeking all star game info message id apr20 informix com date apr gmt sender news informix com usenet news reply to mcole miracle informix com organization informix software lines ok ok ok first my apologies for perhaps being untimely with this subject material and perhaps overly optimistic in my request but here goes anyhow very interested in finding out how might be able to get two tickets for the all star game in baltimore this year my very aged folks live about miles away and know it would be great thing for them to attend the game went with them and my grandfather who got me into baseball as small child to the all star game in dc many years ago although now in the sf bay area love to be able to treat my folks to this game it absolutely the last chance they ever have to attend this ame locally any info would be greatly appreciated mary cole mcole informix com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu ub dsinc gvls1 gvls2 davidm from davidm gvls2 vfl paramax com david madden newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re how to speed up games marginally realistic message id apr20 vfl paramax com date apr gmt references c5she2 lkf ucdavis edu sender davidm gvls2 david madden organization paramax systems corporation paoli pa lines nntp posting host gvls2 in article c5she2 lkf ucdavis edu ez027993 chip ucdavis edu gary built like villanueva huckabay writes you want to speed up ballgames mandate rule permitting only seconds between pitches the current rule is too lenient and then enforce it fifteen seconds is more than enough time if the pitch isn released in call it ball and restart the clock remember post from last year indicating that pitch clock was tried in one of the minor leagues some time back and did not work don remember why they said that it did not work anyone remember this jody mcdonnel on wip in phil has been saying that pitch clock was inevitable how would pitch clock work on throws to first another pair of suggestions remove the balk rule it is the runners responsibility to stay safe no matter what the pitcher does if pitcher throws to an occupied base more than time to without successfully picking off the runner the runner advances base as if walked the no balk seems to give the pitcher the advantage the base walk allows the runner to challenge pitcher to throw over to the base baseball games take about in the nl and just shade under hours in the al that just too damn long don like to play in hour games much less watch game for that long my butt falls asleep and if watching on tv ll channel surf between pitches catching colorized versions of mr ed leave it to beaver and those wacky nieporents on nick at nite too find myself surfing when know that it will be enough time between each pitch to allow the batter to adjust his jewlery gary huckabay you think that loud enough hole movie rights well if you re having trouble hearing it sir available thru be happy to turn it up for you didn ted frank know that many people your age liked king david madden path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net bogus sura net darwin sura net sgiblab sgigate olivea gossip pyramid com pyramid infmx miracle mcole from mcole miracle informix com mary cole newsgroups rec sport baseball subject seeking all star game info message id apr20 informix com date apr gmt sender news informix com usenet news reply to mcole miracle informix com organization informix software lines ok ok ok first my apologies for perhaps being untimely with this subject material and perhaps overly optimistic in my request but here goes anyhow very interested in finding out how might be able to get two tickets for the all star game in baltimore this year my very aged folks live about miles away and know it would be great thing for them to attend the game went with them and my grandfather who got me into baseball as small child to the all star game in dc many years ago although now in the sf bay area love to be able to treat my folks to this game it absolutely the last chance they ever have to attend this ame locally any info would be greatly appreciated mary cole mcole informix com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net bogus sura net darwin sura net sgiblab sgigate olivea gossip pyramid com pyramid infmx miracle mcole from mcole miracle informix com mary cole newsgroups rec sport baseball subject seeking all star game info message id apr20 informix com date apr gmt sender news informix com usenet news reply to mcole miracle informix com organization informix software lines ok ok ok first my apologies for perhaps being untimely with this subject material and perhaps overly optimistic in my request but here goes anyhow very interested in finding out how might be able to get two tickets for the all star game in baltimore this year my very aged folks live about miles away and know it would be great thing for them to attend the game went with them and my grandfather who got me into baseball as small child to the all star game in dc many years ago although now in the sf bay area love to be able to treat my folks to this game it absolutely the last chance they ever have to attend this ame locally any info would be greatly appreciated mary cole mcole informix com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net bogus sura net darwin sura net sgiblab sgigate olivea gossip pyramid com pyramid infmx miracle mcole from mcole miracle informix com mary cole newsgroups rec sport baseball subject seeking all star game info message id apr20 informix com date apr gmt sender news informix com usenet news reply to mcole miracle informix com organization informix software lines ok ok ok first my apologies for perhaps being untimely with this subject material and perhaps overly optimistic in my request but here goes anyhow very interested in finding out how might be able to get two tickets for the all star game in baltimore this year my very aged folks live about miles away and know it would be great thing for them to attend the game went with them and my grandfather who got me into baseball as small child to the all star game in dc many years ago although now in the sf bay area love to be able to treat my folks to this game it absolutely the last chance they ever have to attend this ame locally any info would be greatly appreciated mary cole mcole informix com newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu hobbes physics uiowa edu news iastate edu dunix drake edu acad drake edu sbp002 from sbp002 acad drake edu subject re cardinals mailing list message id apr20 acad drake edu lines sender news dunix drake edu usenet news system nntp posting host acad drake edu organization drake university des moines iowa usa references bb0e761 crosen1 ua1vm ua edu poe husc harvard edu date tue apr gmt in article poe husc harvard edu poe husc10 harvard edu leslie poe writes likewise would love to know about cardinals mailing list please mail me if you have any information thanks lot les poe poe husc harvard edu this is the fifth request to find out about cardinals mailing list it looks like one does not exist if anyone has the initiative creating list might be worthwhile activity sam passer newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu asuvax ncar noao stsci stosc sandoval from sandoval stsci edu subject re jack morris message id apr20 stsci edu lines sender news stsci edu organization space telescope science institute references apr19 ramsey cs laurentian ca mjones apr20 ramsey cs laurentian ca c5sfve aq murdoch acc virginia edu apr20 ramsey cs laurentian ca distribution na date tue apr gmt in article apr20 ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes in c5sfve aq murdoch acc virginia edu drw3l delmarva evsc virginia edu david robert walker writes some comments deleted for bandwidth god knows we need it baseball is team game but it is made of individual talents it is absurd to judge the success or failure of an individual by the success or failure of his teammates whom he did not choose at least in most cases morris won last year because he played on team with joe carter robby alomar tom henke juan guzman john olerud et al clemens lost because he was surrounded by such lesser performers as herm winninham luis rivera and jeff reardon to define the quality of the team as sum of its components as do albeit imperfectly is lesser error than defining the quality of an individual as the mean quality of the team as my reading of your arguments suggests you do no am not trying to define the quality of an individual at least not for the purpose of ranking them toronto won with olerud they might have won with fielder they might not have won with thomas detroit might have won with thomas chicago might have won with fielder you can rank these individuals you can only look at who might contribute more to the team effort which is winning the ws thomas could not have contributed to that goal any more than olerud so cannot say that olerud is less of player ok roger here question for you say you are running an expansion team you don have team at the moment but the draft is coming up who are you going to pick guys who have won the most ws rings or guys who could contribute the most to your team say the reds were dumb enough to not protect larkin and the jays didn protect alfredo who would you pick can believe getting involved in this john cordially as always maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca so many morons rm and so little time newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet uunet ca ohrd jlevine from jlevine rd hydro on ca jody levine subject re observation re helmets message id apr16 rd hydro on ca organization ontario hydro research division references mavenry altcit eskimo com apr15 walter bellcore com apr15 research nj nec com distribution usa date fri apr gmt lines in article apr15 research nj nec com behanna syl nj nec com chris behanna writes do have to be the one to say it don be so stupid as to leave your helmet on the seat where it can fall down and go boom true enough put it on the ground if it free of spooge or directly on my head otherwise that kind of fall is what the helmet is designed to protect against not exactly the helmet has lot less energy if your head isn in it and there no lump inside to compress the liner against the shell is drop off the seat enough to crack the shell doubt it but you can always send it to be inspected ve bike like jody levine dod kv got you can if you pf jody levine hydro on ca ride it toronto ontario canada newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu csus edu netcom com mss from mss netcom com mark singer subject re the real way to speed up ballgames message id mssc5snag xn netcom com organization netcom online communications services login guest references c5she2 lkf ucdavis edu tom apr20125808 amber ssd csd harris com date tue apr gmt lines in article tom apr20125808 amber ssd csd harris com tom ssd csd harris com tom horsley writes the real way to speed up ballgames is for each home park owner to offer the following schedule of bonuses to players on both teams details deleted suspect you could finance this the same way presidential campaigns are paid for offer each fan checkoff on his or her ticket that says want of the price of this ticket to go towards fast game bonuses oh great we fans can subsidize the cost of speeding up the games that we don want to see sped up terrific oh forgot checking off that box to finance presidential campaigns doesn cost us taxpayers anything do you believe in the tooth fairy too the beastmaster sorry hate to be so sarcastic on such beautiful day mark singer mss netcom com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu husc news harvard edu hsdndev howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uunet ca canrem dosgate dosgate michael mcguire canrem com newsgroups rec sport baseball subject al stats message id dosgate from michael mcguire michael mcguire canrem com date apr est reply to michael mcguire michael mcguire canrem com distribution rec organization canada remote systems lines am looking for source of american league baseball stats for individual players in the same format as printed in newspapers ie do not want to provide list of players and get back nice printed reports for week does anyone know of such statistics availability and an idea of the cost canada remote systems toronto ontario newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc sdd hp com hp cv hp pcd hpcvaac koufax cv hp com paula from paula koufax cv hp com paul andresen subject re mlb nba message id apr20 hpcvaac cv hp com sender nobody hpcvaac cv hp com nobody nntp posting host koufax cv hp com organization hewlett packard company corvallis oregon usa references apr17 news yale edu rvesterm vma cc nd edu mssc5qrrz netcom com kbanaian bernard pitzer claremont edu date tue apr gmt lines in article kbanaian bernard pitzer claremont edu kbanaian bernard pitzer claremont edu king banaian writes there is absolutely positively quite verifiably no causation that runs from salaries to ticket prices the two are separable decisions the owners do not raise ticket prices to recoup costs they raise ticket prices because demand for seats has risen wish had bold type for that no for more evidence please come to my intro to econ course somewhere around lecture four sunk costs opportunity costs marginal costs right on ticket prices are set to maximize revenue period for an excellent discussion on how this works see gerald scully book of couple of years back titled think the business of baseball we will stretch no farm animal beyond its natural length paula koufax cv hp com paul andresen hewlett packard home nw mckinley corvallis or sabr member since newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net spool mu edu torn pulp cs laurentian ca maynard from maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard subject re jack morris message id apr20 ramsey cs laurentian ca organization dept of computer science laurentian university sudbury on references apr19 ramsey cs laurentian ca mjones apr20 ramsey cs laurentian ca c5sfve aq murdoch acc virginia edu apr20 ramsey cs laurentian ca apr20 stsci edu distribution na date tue apr gmt lines in apr20 stsci edu sandoval stsci edu writes ok roger here question for you say you are running an expansion team you don have team at the moment but the draft is coming up who are you going to pick guys who have won the most ws rings or guys who could contribute the most to your team say the reds were dumb enough to not protect larkin and the jays didn protect alfredo who would you pick for an expansion team pretty sure would go with the rings as long as their salaries and ages weren too high would want the fans to be able to identify the players would like championship attitude in the clubhouse as for larkin and griffin salaries aside would have to consider which player is likeliest to contribute to ws victory past performance age and attitude would all be integral to my decision certainly wouldn just haul out my copy of gillete and pick larkin as many others would and unlike many others who post to this group hardly consider myself quali fied to make those kinds of decisions can believe getting involved in this have never been able to believe it about myself to tell you the truth it like banging your head against stone wall cordially as always maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca so many morons rm and so little time newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu caen nic umass edu umassd edu smucs2 umassd edu acsddc from acsddc smucs2 umassd edu subject re usa today ftp site message id c5soux ez umassd edu sender usenet umassd edu usenet news system reply to acsddc smucs2 umassd edu organization umass dartmouth no dartmouth ma references apr19 dutrun2 tudelft nl c5qgld dut cc swarthmore edu date tue apr gmt lines in article c5qgld dut cc swarthmore edu rbrooks1 cc swarthmore edu robert brooks writes wiawkph dutrun2 tudelft nl hart writes sometime ago someone mentioned an ftp site run by usa today that should give scores for last night games can some kind soul mail me that address please thanks if anyone knows of such site could they please send it to me also thanks dan acsddc umassd edu newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu caen nic umass edu umassd edu smucs2 umassd edu acsddc from acsddc smucs2 umassd edu subject re red sox mailing list query message id c5sp2j umassd edu sender usenet umassd edu usenet news system reply to acsddc smucs2 umassd edu organization umass dartmouth no dartmouth ma references sfoixme00wb2qbulsk andrew cmu edu date tue apr gmt lines in article sfoixme00wb2qbulsk andrew cmu edu robert ward rw23 andrew cmu edu writes friend in england is looking for red sox mailing list if you know of such list could you please send me mail with some info thank you would be veru interested also if there is one could someone please send me some info dan acsddc umassd edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu linac unixhub slacvm ior organization stanford linear accelerator center date tuesday apr pst from thomas hyer ior slacvm slac stanford edu message id ior slacvm slac stanford edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re jays darrin jackson is nightmare references apr19 node hub org apr20 alchemy chem utoronto ca c5smzy bde ra nrl navy mil lines in article c5smzy bde ra nrl navy mil klinker itd nrl navy mil eric klinker says dj was popular player in san diego derek bell was not faring well in the clubhouse at toronto so no matter how bad he looks now still think it was steal for the jays just from the perspective of team chemistry no statistic can describe it sorry statheads and since there are so many new faces in the clubhouse think the jays are still trying to find it insert the same comment into the jack morris clemens ws ring string laugh at you now and will laugh at you again equally publicly when the jays finish third due to the severe depletion of their talent think bill james put it best about sparky anderson abstract there are million guys in this country with great attitudes but there are only about five hundred who can play major league brand of baseball which are you going to take tom hyer newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu asuvax ncar noao stsci stosc sandoval from sandoval stsci edu subject re braves update message id apr20 stsci edu lines sender news stsci edu organization space telescope science institute references news duke edu apr19 adobe com news duke edu apr20 adobe com distribution na date tue apr gmt in article apr20 adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes in article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes since time immemorial batters have complained about calls so have pitchers and catchers however batters didn use to go for strolls after bad calls to the degree they do now really think that this is the key point when saw the incident on baseball tonight sunday couldn believe how far away from the plate gant went then he casually leaned against his bat don blame the umpire at all for telling the pitcher to pitch the worst part of the whole incident was the braves coming out onto the field what were they going to do attack the umpire the only people who should ve been out there were cox and maybe the coaches but no players agree with the person who posted before that cox should be suspended for having no control over his team john newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu cs uiuc edu perseus cs uiuc edu steph from steph perseus cs uiuc edu dale stephenson subject re braves update message id steph perseus cs uiuc edu sender news cs uiuc edu organization university of illinois dept of comp sci urbana il references apr17 ulkyvx louisville edu news duke edu apr19 adobe com date tue apr gmt lines in apr19 adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes in article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes that he been thrown out and gant had legitimate beef about the pitch that was called strike reasonable umpire would not have tried to force gant back into the box in that situation reasonable umpire would do as he been instructed to do this season get the batters back in the box sooner to try to cut down on the ridiculous length of games for one am glad to see this happen and hope more umpires will do as hirschbeck did in instructing the pitcher to pitch if the batter won get back in the box while can see why they want to cut down on the time spent walking around gant wasn ordered back in the box sooner he was ordered back immediately as soon as he stepped out hirschbeck told him to get back in the box now gant doesn take lot of walks between pitches the only reason he did then because he was very bothered by the call expect his concentration wasn there yet and in crucial situation imagine it best to be as calm as possible contributing factors would be gant bad day at the plate bad year at the plate and the braves long scoring drought now it pretty stupid to go ahead and talk the walk when the umpire is telling you to get in there you know the umpire is going to do something call for strike throw you out etc gant was wrong but hirschbeck was more wrong in my biased view aside from the major chip he seemed to have on his shoulder what was the problem gant had reason to want some time disputed strike call gant hadn been wasting time all game the game had been cruising along and was just over two hours old the score was with outs in the ninth and runner in scoring position is there any reason hirschbeck couldn and shouldn cut gant little slack for no discernible constructive reason hirschbeck disrupted the game caused five minute delay and materially hurt the batter in key situation did he have date to get to and still wonder why terry was tossed earlier in the game dale stephenson steph cs uiuc edu baseball fanatic it is considered good to look wise especially when not overburdened with information golden kimball newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu uunet brunix arc from arc cs brown edu anthony cassandra subject skydome tix message id apr20 cs brown edu sender news cs brown edu organization brown university department of computer science date tue apr gmt lines plan on being in the toronto area sometime this summer late june or early july and would like to attend blue jay game would appreciate if anyone could give me information on how to obtain tickets for blue jay games would prefer to get good seats and assume this would require going through some ticket broker and paying ticket broker info for the toronto area and or ticket info directly through the blue jays would be appreciated ll bring oxygen if need be my schedule is flexible so any games are candidates though prefer to see texas thanks in advance tony newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net news bbn com hsdndev dartvax eugene rhim from eugene rhim dartmouth edu eugene rhim subject fenway message id c5skyu lar dartvax dartmouth edu posted from internews1 b12 newshost dartmouth edu sender news dartvax dartmouth edu the news manager organization dartmouth college hanover nh date tue apr gmt lines hi does anybody know the for ticket info for fenway thanks eugene rhim dartmouth edu newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester rochester udel bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu emory nntp msstate edu news from jonesk ur msstate edu subject re harry caray message id apr20 ra msstate edu sender news ra msstate edu nntp posting host ur117 ur msstate edu reply to jonesk ur msstate edu organization mississippi state university references c5alj5 cgf news cso uiuc edu u49839 uicvm uic edu oasys dt navy mil date tue apr gmt lines in article oasys dt navy mil odell oasys dt navy mil bernard dell writes being an old time cardinal fan now relocated to the nva area can recall that harry was not at all popular with old man busch who as understand it fired him and kicked him out of st louis am not quite sure of the reasons but the old man was certainly not enraptured by ole harry bern dell grew up listening to harry carey call the cardinals games and really liked him then but as recall he was fired because he was too critical read honest when he was announcing he dared to point out the cards miscues and such at least this is what remember from when was kid kay jones newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester rochester udel bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu staff tc umn edu kirsch from kirsch staff tc umn edu dave almost cursed the jays kirsch subject re harry caray message id c5srqr news cis umn edu sender news news cis umn edu usenet news administration nntp posting host staff tc umn edu organization li carlos and the hormones references c5alj5 cgf news cso uiuc edu u49839 uicvm uic edu oasys dt navy mil date tue apr gmt lines in article oasys dt navy mil odell oasys dt navy mil bernard farmer by the dell writes being an old time cardinal fan now relocated to the nva area can recall that harry was not at all popular with old man busch who as understand it fired him and kicked him out of st louis am not quite sure of the reasons but the old man was certainly not enraptured by ole harry but maybe his wife was don claim to know whether it true or not but couple different people totally unrelated have said harry was relieved of his duties because he had more than platonic relations with augie busch wife judgement is left to the individual cuz sure don claim to be an impeachable source in this case dave hung like jim acker slider kirsch blue jays do it again in kirsch staff tc umn edu new quotes out of context not to beat dead horse but it been couple weeks this disappoints me punishments discharges jackhammering stephen lawrence newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu caen uvaarpa murdoch delmarva evsc virginia edu drw3l from drw3l delmarva evsc virginia edu david robert walker subject re defensive runs from da comments message id c5spgf xi murdoch acc virginia edu keywords dr sender usenet murdoch acc virginia edu organization university of virginia references qvdrninnd9f gap caltech edu date tue apr gmt lines in article qvdrninnd9f gap caltech edu shippert cco caltech edu tim shippert writes the reason bothered doing this dr stuff was to see if could determine the answer to the age old question is jeff blauser more valuable than rafael belliard well it looks like just as doug trumped tim beating him to the net with his defensive analyses so tim has gotten in ahead of me the way was doing it was little different being me of course used equivalent averages to work out how many runs player was worth and calculated both rate of performance fielding equivalent average and total performance fielding equivalent runs but compared not to the average player but the replacement player and here why because the positional adjustment comes built in to the system in the al of the average ss is runs above replacement rar cf lf rf we may quibble with the exact numbers but the order looks substantially right in the equivalent average have always set league average to had decided in hitting that the replacement level batter has an eqa of the name of that replacement level hitter often as not is billy ripken decided to let the replacement level fielder be the same distance from as but in the opposite direction as have set it up that makes for an eqa of yes can add runs are proportional to eqa squared the difference between squared and squared equals the difference to squared and rounded off for simplicity an all replacement fielding team would have randy milligan at first willie randolph at second leo gomez at third walt weiss at short kevin bass in left hojo in center and eric anthony in right ugh so the total number of rar for player is the sum of his batting and fielding rar can rate them by total rar or rar per some number of batting outs like an average player has total rar of about batting fielding total rar bat field bonds ventura sandberg thomas van slyke anderson grace raines lankford puckett pendleton alomar finley martinez bagwell mack butler mcgwire sheffield griffey larkin devereaux grissom henderson walker listach justice lofton clark baerga kruk white smith palmeiro gwynn sierra hollins carter bell gonzalez notable entries in per batting out rating nl top are bonds lf sandberg van slyke cf grace larkin ss justice rf sheffield one at each position measured mcgriff despite batting rar fifth in league finishes out of the top due to in fielding last by position galarraga stillwell hansen belliard blauser gad rd in league may dascenzo anthony in the al much maligned rickey henderson was worth second only to frank thomas ventura edges edgar at third grebeck rates potent griffey edges puckett as top cf listach nudges out lofton among rookies and alomar clearly outpoints baerga last by position segui sojo palmer lewis polonia cuyler hayes all for now clay path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net agate netsys pagesat olivea sgigate odin kubey from kubey sgi com ken kubey newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re hbp bb big cat message id c5srg2 cpt odin corp sgi com date apr gmt references qv9psinnsj6 lynx unm edu c5r7tv odin corp sgi com mjones fenway sender news odin corp sgi com net news distribution na organization silicon graphics inc mountain view ca lines nntp posting host summit wpd sgi com in article mjones fenway mjones donald aix kingston ibm com writes kubey sgi com ken kubey writes and finally like to point out that many high obp guys draw their walks more because pitchers are afraid to throw strike to them than because they have great eye this comes up periodically and just don get it take for example mark mcgwire he walked times in if that not potential great example of what you re talking about then don know what is now let look at what happens when mcgwire doesn walk of the time he made an out of the time he hit single of the time he hit double of the time he hit homer now you re pitching against mcgwire would you trade walks for homers double singles and outs would why give him the base when you can get him out times out of didn say that pitcher fear of throwing strikes to guys like mcgwire bonds and frank thomas was rational just said that it exists then there are guys like alex cole who has career obp even though he never had batting average over he did hit in ab in or hit single home run yep that right he never hit homer in ab through the end of who be afraid to throw strike to him don know alex cole batting style at all some questions how tall is he does he go into crouch like rickey hederson pete rose does he foul off lot of pitches like brett butler does he take or strikes in each at bat it could be the cole has good batting eye look above said that many high obp guys draw their walks because pitchers are afraid to throw strike to them not all high obp guys ken kubey kubey wpd sgi com newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester rochester udel news udel edu darwin sura net news feed peachnet edu gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu sdd hp com caen uvaarpa maxwell jja2h from jja2h virginia edu subject re yankee fears message id apr20 virginia edu organization university of virginia references netnews upenn edu date tue apr gmt lines how can anyone pick the worst yankee pitcher in the past years there have been so many does the name steve you mean should try and throw the ball to the catcher trout jonathan alboum uva path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu pitt edu dsinc netnews upenn edu netnews cc lehigh edu ns1 cc lehigh edu kjs5 from kjs5 ns1 cc lehigh edu kristian john schafer newsgroups rec sport baseball subject babe pitching message id apr20 ns1 cc lehigh edu date apr gmt organization lehigh university lines can anyone out there tell me babe ruth complete pitching stats know he was as pitcher for the yankees but what were his numbers when he was with the red sox thanks in advance kris schafer hey sixers lottery pick lottery pick lottery pick go phillies give me beer or give me death lets pillage al bundy shoe salesman women can live with them pass the beernuts norm barfly path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net bogus sura net jhunix hcf jhu edu jhunix hcf jhu edu not for mail from admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu steve liu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re let play the name game date apr organization homewood academic computing johns hopkins university baltimore md usa lines sender admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu distribution world expires message id r1k91innolg jhunix hcf jhu edu references apr20 newshub ariel yorku ca nntp posting host jhunix hcf jhu edu summary never change the somebody wrote how about changing team names post your choices here ll start how about the baltimore baseblazers san francisco quakes shawn go rangers baltimore baseblazers where the hell did you come up with that the orioles are not base stealing team except for anderson besides we would never call them anything but the baltimore orioles why the ballpark has all these orthologically spelling error correct baltimore orioles all over the place bet you thought the bird is just an oriole it not the bird was named after lord baltimore when maryland was founded they re called baltimore orioles but the post is just joke so why do care what non fan thinks of us but still wonder where baseblazers came from san diego padres now there name that needs to be changed how is padre being used as father ie priest or father ie parents admiral steve liu internet address admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu world champions baltimore orioles why not series in the yards stanley cup champions washington capitals the bangles are the greatest female rock group that ever existed this sig has been brought to you by frungy the sport of kings my god man drilling holes through his head is not the answer dr mccoy path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu ogicse flop engr orst edu prism cs orst edu robinr from robinr prism cs orst edu ryan robin newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re usa today ftp site message id r1ka7inn6c3 flop engr orst edu date apr gmt article flop r1ka7inn6c3 sender robinr prism cs orst edu distribution world organization cs dept oregon state university lines nntp posting host prism cs orst edu if there is usa today ftp site could someone please post it to the newsgroup so everyone will stop posting the send it to me too articles sure many people woulds like to know so why not just post it to the net rather than mailing hundreds of people just thought thanks ryan robin robinr prism cs orst edu newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net bogus sura net darwin sura net sgiblab sgigate odin kubey from kubey sgi com ken kubey subject re hbp bb big cat message id c5ssl6 dk1 odin corp sgi com sender news odin corp sgi com net news nntp posting host summit wpd sgi com organization silicon graphics inc mountain view ca references qv9psinnsj6 lynx unm edu c5r7tv odin corp sgi com blue cis pitt edu distribution na date tue apr gmt lines in article blue cis pitt edu dtate pitt edu david tate writes kubey sgi com ken kubey said and finally like to point out that many high obp guys draw their walks more because pitchers are afraid to throw strike to them than because they have great eye not sure used to think this was true but more and more becoming convinced that it the other way around among players with the physical ability to hit the ball real hard the patient ones are the ones who get the chance to do it lot let break down the four basic categories of hitter according to whether they are power threats and whether they walk lot power no power patient frank thomas brett butler barry bonds ozzie smith mark mcgwire craig grebeck babe ruth miller huggins ted williams billy hamilton rickey henderson eddie joost joe morgan mike hargrove impatient ernie banks ozzie guillen dave kingman shawon dunston joe carter andres thomas george bell jose lind kirby puckett devon white okay think we all agree that singles hitters should take strike or two and try to get on base any way they can so the no power impatient guys have no excuse the no power patient guys are doing the right thing now the impatient power guys how could you leave out the big cat would these guys have better slugging percentage if they took more pitches perhaps but doubt it if you tell joe carter to go up there and take few pitches he will draw more walks but he also won hit as many frozen ropes into the bleachers because he is more likely to hold back on pitch that he used to drive the patient power guys joe morgan had small strike zone and rickey henderson has strike zone the size of hitler heart so they get their walks based on the small zone look at the other guys thomas bonds mcgwire ruth and williams wow lot of pitchers would rather nibble at the corners and maybe walk these guys that to throw clear strike to them the pitchers would do better in my opinion by just coming after them with good fastball for strike on the first pitch but pitchers would rather nibble go or and then get hurt ken kubey kubey wpd sgi com newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sol ctr columbia edu usenet ucs indiana edu silver ucs indiana edu rstimets from rstimets silver ucs indiana edu robert and stimets subject re rule book trivia message id c5sskf un usenet ucs indiana edu sender news usenet ucs indiana edu usenet news system nntp posting host silver ucs indiana edu organization indiana university references io20456 maine maine edu apr19 ast saic com io20456 maine maine edu date tue apr gmt lines in article io20456 maine maine edu ryan robbins io20456 maine maine edu writes if were the manager argue that the runner was out of the base line since he was to the left of the first base line if the umps don budge which they won they nev er admit when they are wrong file protest with the league rule states it is interference by batter or runner when in running the last half of the distance from home base to first base he runs outside the three foot line or inside to the left of the foul line and in the umpire judgment interferes with the field er taking the throw at first base the key word in the rule is and runner isn out just for running out of the baseline he out for interfering with the fielding of the ball or throw or fielding of the throw to first because the catcher opted to throw the ball over the batter runner head there no inter ference so what is your definition of interfering with the fielder taking the throw the rule book certainly doesn have definiton or clarification so it possible to interpret the rule as saying that if the catcher has to alter his throw to avoid hitting the batter runner then again we have interference you know it seems that there is no way to apply this rule justly if the catcher or the pitcher say rob dibble for example throws toward first and hits the runner running inside the baseline the fielder takes the chance of being ejected therefore he probably would throw around the runner or your scenario above him you should note that in our american legion league which uses mlb rules we interpret the rule to say in this very circumstance there is interference per rule rstimets path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net noc near net saturn caps maine edu maine maine edu io20456 organization university of maine system date tue apr edt from ryan robbins io20456 maine maine edu message id io20456 maine maine edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re game length was re braves update references apr19 adobe com apr20 wvnvms wvnet edu apr20 adobe com mssc5skw9 kb1 netcom com lines umpires are not required to call time out just because player asks for time only in extreme cases like dust in the pitcher or hitter eyes should an umpire call time the batter has seconds to get situated in the box and receive pitch against putting giant clock or any size clock for that matter up to count down seconds between pitches and the minute for warm ups but think umpires should tell hitters to go to hell if they step out to get the sign or whatever and instruct the pitcher to pitch the same goes for pitchers umps should tell them to pitch or feint within seconds or ball will be called that the way it should be ryan robbins penobscot hall university of maine io20456 maine maine edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester rochester udel darwin sura net bogus sura net howland reston ans net noc near net saturn caps maine edu maine maine edu io20456 organization university of maine system date tue apr edt from ryan robbins io20456 maine maine edu message id io20456 maine maine edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re lame dumb and useless question references rvesterm vma cc nd edu lines it depends if in the judgment of the umpire the batter made no attempt to avoid getting hit the batter is awarded first for base on balls if the umpire rules he did try to get out of the way he awarded first because of hit batsman ryan robbins penobscot hall university of maine io20456 maine maine edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net noc near net saturn caps maine edu maine maine edu io20456 organization university of maine system date tue apr edt from ryan robbins io20456 maine maine edu message id io20456 maine maine edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re how to speed up games marginally realistic references c5she2 lkf ucdavis edu blue cis pitt edu lines pitchers are required to pitch or feint or attempt pick off within seconds after receiving the ball not pitchers are required to pitch their warm up throws within one minute time frame beginning after each half inning ends not two minutes and the reason why reliever should be allowed warm ups is simple different mound different catcher ryan robbins penobscot hall university of maine io20456 maine maine edu newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net europa eng gtefsd com news ans net newsgate watson ibm com hawnews watson ibm com fenway mjones from mjones watson ibm com mike jones subject re relative value of players sender news hawnews watson ibm com nntp news poster message id mjones fenway date tue apr gmt reply to mjones donald aix kingston ibm com disclaimer this posting represents the poster views not necessarily those of ibm references c5ro4h lww world std com kime apr20133127 mongoose torolab ibm com nntp posting host fenway aix kingston ibm com organization ibm aix esa development kingston ny lines kime mongoose torolab ibm com edward kim writes in article c5ro4h lww world std com jle world std com joe leonard writes before folks jump on me let me ask the net would the jays have won the al with good pitcher from aaa in place of morris given his run support how about an average ml pitcher can believe that morris performance in the playoffs and series had large positive impact on the jays performance know it very trendy nowadays to dump on morris but let give credit where credit is due it is doubtful that the blue jays would have won the al east without morris last year when the team went for the month of august and all the other starters were being shelled and milwaukee was making charge morris went with pretty good era can remember exactly also let not underestimate the importance his innings to save the bullpen every fifth day if he didn help us win the al east forget about the pennent and the world series guy who threw innings with about run lower era would have saved the bullpen even more say somebody like frank viola innings his run support was high runs but so was stottlemyer runs and he won only games do remember morris winning an inordinate number of and ballgames but this is to his credit he pitched only as good as he needed to be when he was up in ballgame he just put it in cruise control and threw the ball up there and let the batters get themseleves out hate this expression an inexperienced pitcher would wear himself out trying to make perfect pitches to keep his era down but morris being veteran pitcher knows that winning is the only thing that really matters in baseball by saving himself he was able to reach back for that little extra hate this too when the game was on the line nice audition tape send it to baseball tonight attn ray knight espn bristol ct have you by chance taken look at the boxscores from last year to determine the accuracy of your account seem to recall morris getting at least or wins last year when the jays came back from behind after they had decided to pull morris at the end of an inning mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com dictionaries are merely checkpoint records of linguistic history truly donovan newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester rochester udel darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com hpscit sc hp com cupnews0 cup hp com news1 boi hp com hp pcd hpcvusn whitty from whitty cv hp com joe whitty subject re rooky question about the era message id apr20 hpcvusn cv hp com sender nobody hpcvusn cv hp com nobody uid must be nntp posting host hpcvusc cv hp com organization hewlett packard company corvallis oregon usa newsreader tin version pl6 references thein damabus date tue apr gmt lines thomas theiner thein damabus informatik rwth aachen de wrote hi there german and have been into this mlb stuff since almost one year now there are many problems occuring for me one of them is the era statistic for pitchers what does it say era indicates the average number of earned runs attributed to pitcher per nine inning game thus if pitcher pitched innings and gave up earned run his inning equivelent perfomance would be earned runs thus his era is to compute the era you simply take the number of earned runs divided by the innings pitched and then multiple the result by era er ip an earned run is run that is given up by the pitcher that is not attributed to fielding error more specifically if an error occurs that represented the third out all runs scored after the error are considered unearned runs earned runs are also runs scored as result of players who were left on base when the pitcher exited the game here are some examples if there are two outs in an inning and there are men on base if an error occurs that represents the third out all of the runs after this error and not counted as earned runs if pitcher issues some base on balls walks and leaves the game before the inning is completed he is responsible for the people who were left on base if the those runners who were left on base score and the score was not result of an error those eraned runs are attributed to the pitcher who left the game hope this explains things for you joe path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sol ctr columbia edu destroyer wsu cs vela acs oakland edu vela acs oakland edu ragraca from ragraca vela acs oakland edu randy graca newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re how to speed up games marginally realistic date apr organization oakland university rochester michigan lines message id ragraca vela acs oakland edu references c5she2 lkf ucdavis edu apr20 vfl paramax com nntp posting host vela acs oakland edu davidm gvls2 vfl paramax com david madden writes in article c5she2 lkf ucdavis edu ez027993 chip ucdavis edu gary built like villanueva huckabay writes you want to speed up ballgames mandate rule permitting only seconds between pitches the current rule is too lenient and then enforce it fifteen seconds is more please pardon my ignorance if this is well known but what is the current rule than enough time if the pitch isn released in call it ball and restart the clock remember post from last year indicating that pitch clock was tried in one of the minor leagues some time back and did not work don remember why they said that it did not work anyone remember this jody mcdonnel on wip in phil has been saying that pitch clock was inevitable how would pitch clock work on throws to first maybe we could limit the number of throws to first that the pitcher can make and award balk if he exceeds it have another question who would operate the pitch clock one of the umpires add another one to the crew another pair of suggestions remove the balk rule it is the runners responsibility to stay safe no matter what the pitcher does not sure like this idea think it would severely diminish the number of stolen bases and limit the availability of such neat strategic ploys as the hit and run and the squeeze play one of my personal favorites if pitcher throws to an occupied base more than time to without successfully picking off the runner the runner advances base as if walked ahhh suppose should read the whole article before hit the key eh obviously from what wrote above like this idea the no balk seems to give the pitcher the advantage the base walk allows the runner to challenge pitcher to throw over to the base it may also increase the number of wild throws to the bag since the pitcher knows he doesn have very many chances to pick off the runner so he may hurry too much rather see runs scored as the result of sound hitting and sound baseball strategy rather than on the sloppiness that could result from this kind of rule so suppose there are some disadvantages to that idea too baseball games take about in the nl and just shade under hours in the al that just too damn long don like to play in hour games much less watch game for that long my butt falls asleep and if watching on tv ll channel surf between pitches catching colorized versions of mr ed leave it to beaver and those wacky nieporents on nick at nite too find myself surfing when know that it will be enough time between each pitch to allow the batter to adjust his jewlery remember in little league if when up to bat we stepped out of the batter box even for moment we were automatically out that may be little harsh for the majors but seriously how about putting limit on the batters being able to step out take several dozen practice swings pound their shoes scratch their balls etc maybe forcing them to stay in the batter box wouldn be such bad idea that could save few minutes randy newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu malgudi oar net news ans net newsgate watson ibm com yktnews watson ibm com hawnews watson ibm com fenway mjones from mjones watson ibm com mike jones subject re mlb nba sender news hawnews watson ibm com nntp news poster message id mjones fenway date tue apr gmt reply to mjones donald aix kingston ibm com disclaimer this posting represents the poster views not necessarily those of ibm references rvesterm vma cc nd edu mssc5qrrz netcom com rvesterm vma cc nd edu mssc5skk0 jt6 netcom com nntp posting host fenway aix kingston ibm com organization ibm aix esa development kingston ny lines mss netcom com mark singer writes in article rvesterm vma cc nd edu rvesterm vma cc nd edu writes in article mssc5qrrz netcom com mss netcom com mark singer says why would owners decrease ticket prices when they obviously get lots of people to pay the price they re asking don think that it is obvious that lots of people are willing to pay the price sure someone out there in net land has some facts about trends in attendance regarding percentage of capacity sold but even if the trends are relatively flat you have to consider what is happening on team by team basis attendance in was down by from an all time record in in people terms attendance was down by from to two franchises the dodgers and mets were down by from to had either of them not been entirely awful mlb would have set another attendance record in mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com fortran the infantile disorder by now nearly years old is hopelessly inadequate for whatever computer application you have in mind today it is now too clumsy too risky and too expensive to use edsger dijkstra selected writings on computing path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu pitt edu traven from traven pitt edu neal traven newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re harry caray message id blue cis pitt edu date apr gmt references c5srqr news cis umn edu sender news pitt edu lines newsreader tin version pl8 dave almost cursed the jays kirsch kirsch staff tc umn edu wrote in article oasys dt navy mil odell oasys dt navy mil bernard farmer by the dell writes am not quite sure of the reasons but the old man was certainly not enraptured by ole harry but maybe his wife was don claim to know whether it true or not but couple different people totally unrelated have said harry was relieved of his duties because he had more than platonic relations with augie busch wife judgement is left to the individual cuz sure don claim to be an impeachable source in this case among those who have said it well not quite said it but certainly alluded to it is bing devine redbird gm or some other administrator at the time heard bing speak about it at last year sabr national btw have we had show of hands about who will be attending this year sabr national in san diego ll be there neal traven pitt edu you re only young once but you can be traven vms cis pitt edu immature forever larry andersen newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net agate news ucdavis edu dale ucdavis edu ez027993 from ez027993 dale ucdavis edu gary built like villanueva huckabay subject ron gant stalling and hirschbeck message id c5su54 lw ucdavis edu sender usenet ucdavis edu organization julio machado candlelight vigil society references news duke edu apr19 adobe com steph perseus cs uiuc edu date tue apr gmt lines dale seer stephenson writes while can see why they want to cut down on the time spent walking around gant wasn ordered back in the box sooner he was ordered back immediately as soon as he stepped out hirschbeck told him to get back in the box now gant doesn take lot of walks between pitches the only reason he did then because he was very bothered by the call expect his concentration wasn there yet and in crucial situation imagine it best to be as calm as possible contributing factors would be gant bad day at the plate bad year at the plate and the braves long scoring drought and it is not hirschbeck job to help gant with any of these difficulties if gant can gather his concentration for whatever reason that just makes him all the more meat in the batter box the umpire job is to maintain flow of play gant is not entitled to time to regather his faculties nor is anyone else now it pretty stupid to go ahead and talk the walk when the umpire is telling you to get in there you know the umpire is going to do something call for strike throw you out etc gant was wrong absolutely think it be more accurate to say gant was foolish but hirschbeck was more wrong in my biased view aside from the major chip he seemed to have on his shoulder what was the problem gant had reason to want some time disputed strike call if disputed strike call is ample reason for timeout games would last about nine fifteen weeks if jack morris or dave whiner stieb were pitching disputed strike call is not sufficient for time out suck it up get back in the box and never badmouth the blue they re not going to change their mind and you re just going to come across as pinhead which won help you with the borderline calls ftr never speak to umpires when don know them personally nor do glance at them or react to calls as result think get more than my fair share of borderline calls at the plate because have rep of having good eye actually there are lot of negative connotations that go with that rep including copious questions about my masculinity party affiliation and sexual preference gant hadn been wasting time all game the game had been cruising along and was just over two hours old irrelevant he was wasting time then the score was with outs in the ninth and runner in scoring position is there any reason hirschbeck couldn and shouldn cut gant little slack because it not his job because setting the precedent of cutting slack there can easily extend to those hour games kind of like the phantom dp for no discernible constructive reason hirschbeck disrupted the game caused five minute delay and materially hurt the batter in key situation did he have date to get to gant hurt himself and the braves disrupted the game your biases are exposed and sitting here defending umpires and the sf giants which is like phyllis schlafly defending gary segura jack kevorkian and the swedish abortion team and still wonder why terry was tossed earlier in the game believe terry said the magic word there are some truly quick ways to get tossed from ballgame for primer email me good ways to get tossed from game ask ken kaiser if he got his money back from nutri system kiss rich garcia on the lips and say hi honey home goose eric gregg ask bruce froemming if his parents had any children that lived get naked source the greg spira book of diamond ettiquette as told to peter gammons collier press gary huckabay outside that was right down the bleedin pipe balder than any kenny realize don have great control but dave on the net mon gary that was styrofoam cup the really plate foot to your right throw the ball newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu asuvax ncar woods from woods ncar ucar edu greg woods subject re hbp bb big cat message id apr20 ncar ucar edu organization scientific computing division ncar boulder co references qv9psinnsj6 lynx unm edu c5r7tv odin corp sgi com blue cis pitt edu distribution na date tue apr gmt lines in article blue cis pitt edu dtate pitt edu david tate writes of course this is not the same as claiming as some do that galarraga inability to defer gratification isn hurting his team because he isn paid to walk or is an rbi guy or whatever alright that enough ve suffered with all kinds of insults as typical for the net but give me break galarraga is currently batting over and you guys are complaining that he isn drawing enough walks what would he have to do to please you guys bat you can hardly claim that he is hurting his team if it happens that the pitchers start throwing him fewer good pitches and he starts making lots of outs as someone speculated might happen then would agree with you that he isn taking enough pitches my comment that he isn paid to walk doesn mean that he should have license to swing at bad pitches and make outs it more along the lines of he batting and leading the league in rbi so what bloody difference does it make if he isn drawing lot of walks sheesh greg newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu caen nigel msen com yale edu news yale edu berkeley kstar node net yale edu user from sean garrison subject re best first basemen message id apr20 news yale edu followup to rec sport baseball sender news news yale edu usenet news system nntp posting host berkeley kstar node net yale edu organization yale univeristy references apr20 tesla njit edu date tue apr gmt lines in article apr20 tesla njit edu drm6640 tesla njit edu wrote don mattingly is the best first baseman in the history of baseball always has been always will be actually keith hernandez is the best sean behind the bag vin scully path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu lll winken llnl gov sun barr news2me ebay sun com cronkite central sun com hawkwind bobn from bobn hawkwind central sun com bob netherton newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re geronimo pena date apr gmt organization sun microsystems lines distribution world message id r20avinnb6q cronkite central sun com references apr20 eagle wesleyan edu reply to bob netherton dallas central sun com nntp posting host hawkwind central sun com in article apr20 eagle wesleyan edu dhart eagle wesleyan edu writes hey ve noticed that luis alicea is starting at nd for the cardinals instead of geronimo pena is pena hurt or was he just benched for poor performance anyone know after quick start pena has been stuck in rut torre gave alicea the start to try to get pena out of whatever funk he is in it has worked in the past bob bob netherton missouri pacific sun microsystems mp dallas tx newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net noc near net oz plymouth edu keith from keith oz plymouth edu thomas keith subject re bob knepper was not right message id apr20 oz plymouth edu organization plymouth state college plymouth nh references apr19 news stolaf edu date tue apr gmt lines in article apr19 news stolaf edu eblom mari acc admin stolaf edu the woodman writes in article apr19 news yale edu austin jacobs writes don you guys think so mean mon what the heck are women doing even thinking of getting into baseball oh don know maybe because they love the game they cause so many problems just look at lisa olson remember that feisty reporter that entered the new england patriots locker room she started crying like little girl so people deal with unfair treatment differently suppose you would have more respect if she punched out some people like stereotypical macho man would have done just don think women belong in man sport before you smart guys flame me for this know the given example was about football who cares it still applies to other male sports male sports are only that way because they won let women be involved there is no divine providence segregating sports it is the decision of the men who run it men almost as liberal thinking as you how can we have women umpires ummm by insisting they pass an accredited umpire course then hiring them jeez look at pam postema just because she woman everybody on the face of the earth thinks it great that she getting an opportunity to ump if you even watched the games and had an iq greater than that of roast beef you see that she is not nearly as good as most aaa umpires besides she is probably more worried about cracking fingernail with foul tip off of wade boggs bat or jose oquendo bat listen mr status quo know pam postema ve seen her work she is without question the toughest person ve ever met she doesn give damn about her fingernails but does care about working the game she not there to find man to take care of her but to do the best job any umpire can do your bullshit comments are obviously tailored to show off the red on you neck not your grasp on society there nothing wrong with red neck why some of us hicks even listen to cultured music and such can you say the same aside from that you shouldn try to shit on this guy by insulting where you think he comes from where from we milk cows drive trucks and yes even like baseball so screw anyone that doesn like it oh yeah learn the difference between to and too city boy see below thom unnumbered wanna be member of the bob knepper fan club bkfc either way there are too many complications nobody said life was easy pam is aware of that to bad that she has to be judged by people like you who can look past anatomy qaustin jacobs bob knepper fan club member were you ever an organized baseball owner or in the political system before women could vote you seem to feel threatened ttfn woody no smileys here either none path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester rochester udel bogus sura net darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu swrinde network ucsd edu mvb saic com zippy telcom arizona edu joplin biosci arizona edu r4938585 from r4938585 joplin biosci arizona edu doug roberts newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re lame dumb and useless question date apr gmt organization university of arizona biotechnology tucson lines sender r4938585 joplin biosci arizona edu doug roberts message id r20p1 zippy telcom arizona edu references rvesterm vma cc nd edu nntp posting host joplin biosci arizona edu in article rvesterm vma cc nd edu rvesterm vma cc nd edu writes ok there are three balls on this batter the pitcher proceeds to bean the batter is that walk or hit by pitch bob vesterman it gotta be an hbp doug roberts watching chris nabholz pitch reminds me of quote by bart simpson come on snipers where are you go expos newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu malgudi oar net news ans net newsgate watson ibm com yktnews watson ibm com hawnews watson ibm com fenway mjones from mjones watson ibm com mike jones subject re bonilla sender news hawnews watson ibm com nntp news poster message id mjones fenway date tue apr gmt reply to mjones donald aix kingston ibm com disclaimer this posting represents the poster views not necessarily those of ibm references apr16 ra msstate edu c5lilh gtk usenet ucs indiana edu apr17 organpipe uug arizona edu apr18 princeton edu news duke edu nntp posting host fenway aix kingston ibm com organization ibm aix esa development kingston ny lines fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes all of these divisions based on race religion etc make me sick as they should isn it nice that mlb is finally waking up to their existence isn it shame that hiring practices on and off the field have been discriminatory for so long quick name light hitting black outfielder or who lasted years in the bigs bet you can name two dozen white ones otis nixon darnell coles henry cotto manny mota billy hatcher herm winningham lonnie smith not light hitting but horror in the field gary redus dion james daryl boston vince coleman yeah he finally started to have decent obp cecil espy willie wilson gary pettis milt thompson gary varsho ok admit to taking quick browse through the major league handbook but only after the first or oh and there the all time light hitting black outfielder lou brock look it up and curt flood cesar geronimo cesar cedeno note these guys may not have reached years yet but they ve got to be close likewise for my list oh and prediction milt cuyler mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com you know the great thing about tv if something important happens anywhere at all in the world no matter what time of the day or night you can always change the channel jim ignatowski xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec sport baseball rec sport baseball fantasy path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu usc elroy jpl nasa gov lll winken llnl gov sun barr news2me ebay sun com cronkite central sun com hawkwind bobn from bobn hawkwind central sun com bob netherton newsgroups rec sport baseball rec sport baseball fantasy subject re ray lankford question date apr gmt organization sun microsystems lines distribution world message id r20ivinnb6q cronkite central sun com references apr20 mnemosyne cs du edu reply to bob netherton dallas central sun com nntp posting host hawkwind central sun com in article apr20 mnemosyne cs du edu msilverm nyx cs du edu mike silverman writes does anybody know what is going on with lankford know he was out for few games with slight injury but since he has beenback and before the injury for that matter he has been really struggling at the plate and on the basepaths his performance at the plate may well be from the shoulder injury received when he ran into the wall making catch in the cincy series it may also be him pressing little as for the baserunning it does not appear to be just lankford dent made the bad call sending lankford in the sunday night game against cincy but everyone had bad time against the dodger catcher whereis the ray lankford we saw last year good question at least it doesn appear that we are seeing the same zeile bob netherton missouri pacific sun microsystems mp dallas tx newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu news cso uiuc edu uxa cso uiuc edu cka52397 from cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc subject re best first basemen date tue apr gmt message id c5t3d4 gj news cso uiuc edu references apr20 tesla njit edu apr20 news yale edu sender usenet news cso uiuc edu net noise owner organization university of illinois at urbana lines sean garrison writes in article apr20 tesla njit edu drm6640 tesla njit edu wrote don mattingly is the best first baseman in the history of baseball always has been always will be actually keith hernandez is the best sean behind the bag vin scully ll go with mark grace and in years frank thomas chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net agate dog ee lbl gov network ucsd edu news cerf net pagesat olivea charnel rat zeus cymbal calpoly edu jplee from jplee cymbal calpoly edu jason lee newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re braves update message id apr20 zeus calpoly edu date apr gmt references apr17 ulkyvx louisville edu news duke edu apr20 seq uncwil edu sender news zeus calpoly edu organization california polytechnic state university san luis obispo lines and then cosper seq uncwil edu kit cosper quoth comment made by one of the braves announcers attributed to an anonymous player after friday night game sorry we didn tie it up wanted to see some more umpiring just about sums it up sure like ron gant wasn completely out of line if were hirschbeck would have ejected in order ron gant every single last brave who came onto the field and possibly bobby cox depending on the language he used since cox was the only brave rung up suspect would have thrown him out too you simply cannot show up an umpire like ron gant did it is disrespectful of not only the home plate umpire but of the dignity of the game jason lee jplee oboe calpoly edu jlee cash busfac calpoly edu giants pi the most beautiful equation in mathematics magic for all sad words of tongue and pen the saddest are these number it might have been john greenleaf whittier xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu soc culture canada rec humor rec sport baseball newsgroups soc culture canada rec humor rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com nigel msen com yale edu yale gumby destroyer cs ubc ca news uvic ca sol uvic ca klassen from klassen sol uvic ca melvin klassen subject re is western insane message id apr20 sol uvic ca sender news sol uvic ca nntp posting host sol uvic ca organization university of victoria victoria canada references qucdn queensu ca qucdn queensu ca qucdn queensu ca date tue apr gmt lines in article qucdn queensu ca qucdn queensu ca writes why are we continuously putting down other universities queen is not as great as is makes itself out to be this place has only got good rep because it been here so long if someone would take the time to look around and see how dissatisfied people are with the disorganization and the constant misuse of the bell curve they could see that queen needs some major improvements would personally start with hiring professors who can actually teach not people who are here with the attitude that this place would be okay if it wasn for all the students running around when did george bell ex blue jay learn to throw curve newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu ux1 cso uiuc edu cs uiuc edu pegasus cs uiuc edu steph from steph pegasus cs uiuc edu dale stephenson subject re braves update message id steph pegasus cs uiuc edu sender news cs uiuc edu organization university of illinois dept of comp sci urbana il references news duke edu apr19 adobe com news duke edu c5sysg kad odin corp sgi com date tue apr gmt lines in c5sysg kad odin corp sgi com luigi sgi com randy palermo writes in article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes when gant turned away hirschbeck immediately motioned for gant to step into the box imo at this point in time hirschbeck was determined to show gant exactly who was in charge of this game gant wasn dawdling he hadn had chance to dawdle and hirschbeck was simply exercising power play gant resisted as many of us might to what we thought was an unreasonable request and hirschbeck called for the pitch at that point cox came out on the field the pitch was thrown and many other braves left the dugout cox was tossed protecting his player was pleasantly surprised that gant kept his cool enough to stay in the game did you see the same game saw gant most reasonable argued horrible call which hirschbeck correctly did nothing about gant then proceeded to walk halfway to rd base lean on his bat and glare at hirschbeck while don necessasarily subscribe to the theory of showing people up this was an obvious attempt by gant to do so to hirschbeck he left hirschbeck no choice but to take control of the situation the bottom line is gant started dangerous power struggle with hirschbeck when his team needed him most and he lost the events saw were called strike by hirschbeck shocked looking gant asks for appeal to first no appeal to first gant steps out of batters box hirschbeck immediately orders gant back in bad move gant ignores hirschbeck and walks off bad move hirschbeck yells at gant gant is silent hirschbeck calls for the pitch pitch is called strike cox argues couldn see when he came on the field cox is ejected players everywhere play finally resumes gant shouldn have ignored hirschbeck not returning made the strike call fairly likely although suspect an argument might have gotten gant tossed altogether but if hirschbeck had let gant step out the whole incident probably would have been avoided dale stephenson steph cs uiuc edu baseball fanatic it is considered good to look wise especially when not overburdened with information golden kimball newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net agate news ossi com news fai com amdahl netcomsv netcom com mss from mss netcom com mark singer subject re game length was re braves update message id mssc5t13o l5s netcom com organization netcom online communications services login guest references apr20 wvnvms wvnet edu apr93 vax clarku edu mzimmersc5sllk ld9 netcom com date tue apr gmt lines in article mzimmersc5sllk ld9 netcom com mzimmers netcom com michael zimmers writes in article apr93 vax clarku edu hhenderson vax clarku edu writes nflynn wvnvms wvnet edu writes agree with nick what the big deal about long games if you want to watch baseball there that much more baseball to watch and yes baseball includes the space between plays as well as the plays themselves first longer game in no way suggests more baseball to watch unless you include watching the grass grow as baseball the lengthier games are so because of batters stepping out of the box pitchers taking longer between pitches and excessive trips to the mound by managers and pitching coaches until six or seven years ago was an enthusiastic fan of nfl football last year hardly watched game what turned me off were the incessant interruptions to the continuity of the game team scores minutes of commercials kickoff minutes of commercials three downs and punt minutes of commercials aaaaarrrrgh earlier in this thread commented on larussa and the whom believe institutionalize slow play don mind the cat and mouse game with rickey on first in fact rather enjoy it similarly would enjoy the battle with listach or lofton or polonia on first what object to is when such games are played with karkovice on first or when the game is blowout don mind when the pitcher steps off the mound to gather his thoughts in crucial situation or when hitter steps out of the box to regain his concentration what object to is when hitters and pitchers take such breaks at every opportunity when game is exciting these little delays serve as tension builders and for me enhance the value of the experience of the game when the delays happen with regularity they become nuisances just like the commercial breaks in football understand the nfl imposed number of rule changes to speed up the games basically putting an onus on the officiating staff to move the markers and the ball to the spots faster that did not address the problem of the continuity of the game it may have appeased the sponsors and the networks but would be amazed if it did anything to enhance the experience of the fans similary while some hour baseball games bore me to tears those are the ones where there is no continuity and the players are taking exasperatingly long periods to get ready for each pitch doubt if anyone watching the braves giants game cared about gant stepping out doubt if anyone watching that game would have found that pause to be anything but an opportunity to have their complete attention claimed by the drama that was present would be totally opposed to any effort that would eliminate that aspect of baseball on the other hand wish baseball had commissioner that was powerful enough to sit down with alderson larussa duncan and explain that they are actually hurting the product of baseball by dragging their games out the way that they do sure wouldn mind little arm twisting there the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net noc near net uunet island fester from fester island com mike fester subject re autographs was will clark is jerk message id apr20 island com sender usenet island com the usenet mail target organization usr local rn organization references apr17 cs cornell edu apr19 island com apr19 cs cornell edu date tue apr gmt lines in article apr19 cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes in article apr19 island com fester island com mike fester writes out of curiousity why haven you pointed this same thing out to mr neiporent who seems to be making the unsubstantiated accusation against will clark as for taking the word of those two leonard has repeatedly said he had no problems with will and mitchell refused to comment mike you again prove your utter inability to read plain english it is ironic that in any post that criticizes langauge ability the critic invariably makes mistake himself english is generally written english find somebody who is literate and have them explain my full post to you am not saying will clark is racist am not saying will clark is not racist am saying that do not know and you do not know am saying that do not care and consider it the giants concern oddly do not see that have contested any of that perhaps you with assuredly greater english ability can explain in tiny words that might grasp their meaning precisely where infer that you have said any of those things david nieporent understood my post and replied in private mail you should perhaps take reading lessons from him no mr fisher you should place the burden of proof on the one who makes the allegation in the first place you do not perhaps you might explain why that is as for the email route mr fisher you might have tried that yourself mike newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester rochester udel news udel edu darwin sura net news feed peachnet edu gatech howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu cs uiuc edu pegasus cs uiuc edu steph from steph pegasus cs uiuc edu dale stephenson subject hits stolen centerfield message id steph pegasus cs uiuc edu summary dcon and dops for leftfielders keywords defense center sender news cs uiuc edu organization university of illinois dept of comp sci urbana il date tue apr gmt lines disclaimer this is for fun in my computerized baseball game keep track of category called stolen hits defined as play made that an average fielder would not make with average effort using the defensive averages posted by sherri nichols thanks sherri ve figured out some defensive stats for the centerfielders hits stolen have been redefined as plays juan gonzalez would not have made ok realize that unfair juan probably the victim of pitching staff fluke shots and monster park factor but let put it this way if we replaced every centerfielder in the league with someone with kevin out making ability how many extra hits would go by to try and correlate it to reality little more ve calculated net hits stolen based on the number of outs made compared to what league average fielder would make by the same method ve calculated net extra bases doubles and triples let by finally throw all this into formula call defensive contribution or dcon basically it represents the defensive contribution of player add this number to ops to get dops defense onbase plus slug which should represent the player total contribution to the team so don take it too seriously the formula for dcon appears at the end of this article the short version definition of terms hs hits stolen extra outs compared to kurt stillwell nhs net hits stolen extra outs compared to average fielder ndp net double plays extra double plays turned compared to avg fielder neb net extra bases extra bases prevented compared to avg fielder dcon defensive contribution bases and hits prevented as rate dops dcon ops quick dirty measure of player total contribution national league name hs nhs neb dcon dops nixon grissom jackson lewis dykstra dascenzo finley lankford martinez vanslyke sanders butler johnson ordered by dops vanslyke lankford grissom dykstra nixon finley sanders jackson nl average butler martinez dascenzo lewis johnson american league name hs nhs neb dcon dops lofton wilson white felix devereaux mcrae yount kelly johnson griffey puckett cuyler gonzalez order by dops lofton griffey devereaux white puckett wilson gonzalez yount felix al average kelly johnson mcrae cuyler more discussion dcon formula nhs ndp pa nhs ndp neb ab why such bizzare formula basically it designed to be added into the ops with the idea that run prevented is as important as run scored the extra outs are factored into obp while the extra bases removed are factored into slg that why used pa and ab as the divisors for more discussion see the post on hits stolen first base dale stephenson steph cs uiuc edu baseball fanatic it is considered good to look wise especially when not overburdened with information golden kimball newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu cs uiuc edu pegasus cs uiuc edu steph from steph pegasus cs uiuc edu dale stephenson subject hits stolen left field message id steph pegasus cs uiuc edu keywords defense left sender news cs uiuc edu organization university of illinois dept of comp sci urbana il references steph pegasus cs uiuc edu date wed apr gmt lines disclaimer this is for fun in my computerized baseball game keep track of category called stolen hits defined as play made that an average fielder would not make with average effort using the defensive averages posted by sherri nichols thanks sherri ve figured out some defensive stats for the leftfielders hits stolen have been redefined as plays kevin bass would not have made ok realize that unfair kevin probably the victim of pitching staff fluke shots and monster park factor but let put it this way if we replaced every leftfielder in the league with someone with kevin out making ability how many extra hits would go by to try and correlate it to reality little more ve calculated net hits stolen based on the number of outs made compared to what league average fielder would make by the same method ve calculated net extra bases doubles and triples let by finally throw all this into formula call defensive contribution or dcon basically it represents the defensive contribution of player add this number to ops to get dops defense onbase plus slug which should represent the player total contribution to the team so don take it too seriously the formula for dcon appears at the end of this article the short version definition of terms hs hits stolen extra outs compared to kurt stillwell nhs net hits stolen extra outs compared to average fielder ndp net double plays extra double plays turned compared to avg fielder neb net extra bases extra bases prevented compared to avg fielder dcon defensive contribution bases and hits prevented as rate dops dcon ops quick dirty measure of player total contribution national league name hs nhs neb dcon dops gonzalez gilkey clark alou bonds may gant bass ordered by dops bonds gilkey gonzalez alou clark nl average gant may bass american league name hs nhs neb dcon dops raines anderson henderson vaughn gladden hall mack polonia mcreynolds maldanado reimer order by dops henderson anderson raines mack vaughn hall al average maldanado mcreynolds gladden reimer polonia more discussion dcon formula nhs ndp pa nhs ndp neb ab why such bizzare formula basically it designed to be added into the ops with the idea that run prevented is as important as run scored the extra outs are factored into obp while the extra bases removed are factored into slg that why used pa and ab as the divisors for more discussion see the post on hits stolen first base dale stephenson steph cs uiuc edu baseball fanatic it is considered good to look wise especially when not overburdened with information golden kimball newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net agate boulder ucsu spot colorado edu franjion from franjion spot colorado edu john franjione subject re jack morris message id franjion spot colorado edu sender news ucsu colorado edu usenet news system nntp posting host spot colorado edu organization university of colorado boulder references apr19 ramsey cs laurentian ca sdcc12 ucsd edu apr20 ramsey cs laurentian ca apr20 cs cornell edu date tue apr gmt lines tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes valentine no not going to be cordial roger maynard is complete and total dickhead send me mail if you insist on details in fact he complete and total dickhead on at least newsgroups this one and rec sport hockey since hockey season is almost over he back to being dickhead in bb john franjione department of chemical engineering university of colorado boulder franjion spot colorado edu newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu usenet ins cwru edu howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu cs uiuc edu pegasus cs uiuc edu steph from steph pegasus cs uiuc edu dale stephenson subject re yankee thoughts message id steph pegasus cs uiuc edu sender news cs uiuc edu organization university of illinois dept of comp sci urbana il references apr20 clam com date wed apr gmt lines in apr20 clam com sam steamer clam com sam mandelbaum writes wade boggs live in boston and like wade lot but his career is winding down and would rather see the yanks start to develop long term solution hensley muelins russ davis velarde besides wade just doesn have any range what shame about charlie hayes huh actually according to the da information posted by sherri boggs is superior defensively to have here their defensive averages for the last five years compared to average at al boggs hayes if hayes is defensive standout at third he done good job in disguising it to put it another way compared to an average third baseman last year boggs converted more grounders into outs turned more double plays and prevented doubles hayes let more grounders go by for hits turned more double plays and prevented doubles dale stephenson steph cs uiuc edu baseball fanatic it is considered good to look wise especially when not overburdened with information golden kimball newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net agate boulder ucsu spot colorado edu franjion from franjion spot colorado edu john franjione subject re relative value of players message id franjion spot colorado edu sender news ucsu colorado edu usenet news system nntp posting host spot colorado edu organization university of colorado boulder references c5ro4h lww world std com kime apr20133127 mongoose torolab ibm com date tue apr gmt lines kime mongoose torolab ibm com edward kim writes it is doubtful that the blue jays would have won the al east without morris last year when the team went for the month of august and all the other starters were being shelled and milwaukee was making charge morris went with pretty good era can remember exactly also let not underestimate the importance his innings to save the bullpen every fifth day if he didn help us win the al east forget about the pennent and the world series his run support was high runs but so was stottlemyer runs and he won only games do remember morris winning an inordinate number of and ballgames but this is to his credit he pitched only as good as he needed to be when he was up in ballgame he just put it in cruise control and threw the ball up there and let the batters get themseleves out hate this expression an inexperienced pitcher would wear himself out trying to make perfect pitches to keep his era down but morris being veteran pitcher knows that winning is the only thing that really matters in baseball by saving himself he was able to reach back for that little extra hate this too when the game was on the line don buy this at all think things are colored to very large degree of preconceived notions of who the players involved are try this exercise xxx is pitching today his team scores in the first inning and in the fourth xxx gives up in the st through th in the fifth he gives up runs in the th he gives up more the score is now with xxx team still on top contend that if xxx were jack morris the assessment would be he is gutty veteran who pitches only as well as he has to to win if xxx were mike trmbley the assessment would be he is an inexperienced rookie who doesn know how to pitch needs more seasoning send him to aaa or to the spice rack john franjione department of chemical engineering university of colorado boulder franjion spot colorado edu newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester rochester cornell tedward from tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer subject re jack morris message id apr21 cs cornell edu organization cornell univ cs dept ithaca ny references apr19 newshub ariel yorku ca qt6ooinn7gd senator bedfellow mit edu apr19 sni ca date wed apr gmt lines in article apr19 sni ca dave snitor sni ca dave till writes don think it was that obvious at the time that viola was better morris and viola had comparable ip ratios in viola was coming off an injury whereas morris was healthy at the time didn really want the sox to sign either was more than little worried about viola elbow but you surely remember my shout of relief when after week of rumors that morris was coming to the red sox they ended up with viola instead now even happier viola seems to have rebounded nicely also morris was willing to sign for only two years the jays don like to sign pitchers to long term contracts which think is sensible policy how long did viola sign for three years generally agree with their policy of avoiding long term contracts for pitchers but think they enforce it rather too strictly these days the premier pitchers all sign three or four year deals which leaves the jays with morris and stewart if the jays want to compete for top free agent pitchers they will have to accept greater risks any idea what the option year deal is for morris are there any automatic activation clauses what is the buyout amount cheers valentine newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sol ctr columbia edu usenet ucs indiana edu silver ucs indiana edu rdorocke from rdorocke silver ucs indiana edu rob lawrence dorocke subject re harry caray message id c5t6oa iob usenet ucs indiana edu sender news usenet ucs indiana edu usenet news system nntp posting host silver ucs indiana edu organization indiana university references c5srqr news cis umn edu blue cis pitt edu date wed apr gmt lines in article blue cis pitt edu traven pitt edu neal traven writes dave almost cursed the jays kirsch kirsch staff tc umn edu wrote in article oasys dt navy mil odell oasys dt navy mil bernard farmer newsgroups rec sport baseball by the dell writes am not quite sure of the reasons but the old man was certainly not enraptured by ole harry but maybe his wife was don claim to know whether it true or not but couple different people totally unrelated have said harry was relieved of his duties because he had more than platonic relations with augie busch wife judgement is left to the individual cuz sure don claim to be an impeachable source in this case among those who have said it well not quite said it but certainly alluded to it is bing devine redbird gm or some other administrator at the time heard bing speak about it at last year sabr national btw have we had show of hands about who will be attending this year sabr national in san diego ll be there neal traven pitt edu you re only young once but you can be traven vms cis pitt edu immature forever larry andersen harry talks about this incident in his autobiography holy cow unfortunately can not clarify on this since read the book couple of years ago and do not have my book with me anyway it is pretty interesting book if you are harry or cubs fan rob newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net bogus sura net udel news intercon com psinntp dg rtp avlin10 avlin8 us dg com hagins from hagins avlin8 us dg com jody hagins subject bitmaps of team logos sender usenet avlin10 us dg com usenet message id apr20 avlin10 us dg com date tue apr gmt reply to hagins avlin8 us dg com organization data general corporation linthicum md lines heard they were posted somewhere but can not find them please mail location thanks jody jody hagins hagins avlin8 us dg com data general corporation linthicum md rock river tree mastodon path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu news cs indiana edu bsu cs bsu ucs uucp pmlemen from pmlemen leo bsuvc bsu edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject two sport star trivia message id apr20 bsu ucs date apr gmt organization ball state university muncie in univ computing svc lines here few two sport star trivia questions ll admit they re not too difficult but bit challenging nevertheless mail me your answers please or post them which pitcher played for the harlem globetrotters which major leaguer briefly tried professional golf in which does dieon sanders have more of professionally career touchdowns or triples has there been any player of both pro hockey and baseball if so name him and the years he played each if you have any other two sport star tidbits feel free to include them mike newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net bogus sura net udel news intercon com eddie mit edu uhog mit edu xn ll mit edu ll mit edu ejb from ejb ll mit edu ed baranoski subject re how to speed up games marginally realistic in reply to davidm gvls2 vfl paramax com message of apr gmt message id pn27738 ll mit edu sender news ll mit edu organization home nearnet ejb organization references c5she2 lkf ucdavis edu apr20 vfl paramax com date tue apr lines in article apr20 vfl paramax com davidm gvls2 vfl paramax com david madden writes another pair of suggestions remove the balk rule it is the runners responsibility to stay safe no matter what the pitcher does if pitcher throws to an occupied base more than time to without successfully picking off the runner the runner advances base as if walked this last suggestion will probably increase the number of stolen bases considerably suppose the pitcher uses up of his pick off attempts the runner can probably stretch his lead off the base given that there will be extra pressure on the pitcher to get it right this time would this suggestion apply to pick off attempts per pitch per batter or per base runner on the same base dr edward baranoski mit lincoln laboratory it got to be the going rm po box not the getting there that good lexington ma harry chapin from greyhound newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net agate headwall stanford edu csd newshost stanford edu xenon stanford edu nlu from nlu xenon stanford edu nelson lu subject re hbp bb big cat message id apr21 csd newshost stanford edu sender news csd newshost stanford edu organization computer science department stanford university references c5r7tv odin corp sgi com blue cis pitt edu apr20 ncar ucar edu distribution na date wed apr gmt lines in article apr20 ncar ucar edu woods ncar ucar edu greg woods writes alright that enough ve suffered with all kinds of insults as typical for the net but give me break galarraga is currently batting over and you guys are complaining that he isn drawing enough walks what would he have to do to please you guys bat you can hardly claim that he is hurting his team fine are you willing to bet that he will bat the rest of the way the point is that he has hurt the rockies so far it that he will hurt them eventually just as much as he hurt the expos and the cardinals the past couple seasons if it happens that the pitchers start throwing him fewer good pitches and he starts making lots of outs as someone speculated might happen then would agree with you that he isn taking enough pitches my comment it has happened for the past seasons where have you been that he isn paid to walk doesn mean that he should have license to swing at bad pitches and make outs it more along the lines of he batting and leading the league in rbi so what bloody difference does it make if he isn drawing lot of walks sheesh we ll see come september have an outstanding bet with someone that galarraga obp will be less than on june go california angels nelson lu claudius leland stanford edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu swrinde network ucsd edu mvb saic com zippy telcom arizona edu joplin biosci arizona edu r4938585 from r4938585 joplin biosci arizona edu doug roberts newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re neon deon sanders braves giants date apr gmt organization university of arizona biotechnology tucson lines sender r4938585 joplin biosci arizona edu doug roberts message id r28f6 zippy telcom arizona edu references qu6ivinneg3 mephisto gatech edu apr19 leland stanford edu apr20 bnlux1 bnl gov nntp posting host joplin biosci arizona edu in article apr20 bnlux1 bnl gov kyee bnlux1 bnl gov kenton yee writes phisto gatech edu tmiller cimmeria gatech edu thomas miller writes does anyone else think that this weekend four game series was really strange one yup was wondering the whole time why the braves most talented outfielder neon deon was not starting here whoa aren you forgetting couple of guys named gant and justice guy who can hit hrs lead off and steal he can lead off he ll probably steal he might hit he ll never hit homers think you went for on this one bases and they start guys like nixon and bream ahead of him can really see that advantage of nixon over deon except that nixon is better defensive outfielder you said it all right there does anyone else out there not like deon think he all hype his season last year was good but not convinced that he can do it again it reminds me sorry of the year when tim wallach hit or so homers and had rbi it never even came close to happening again of course maybe just prefer guys who go about their business and don play it up for the attention just my ho doug roberts larry walker is god delino deshields thinks he is john bratt if you re out there send me some email my system can find your site newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu moe ksu ksu edu osuunx ucc okstate edu constellation essex ecn uoknor edu babeard from babeard essex ecn uoknor edu billy aaron beard subject re torre the worst manager sender usenet constellation ecn uoknor edu usenet administrator message id c5t3vu eqh constellation ecn uoknor edu date tue apr gmt distribution usa references hydra gatech edu hydra gatech edu nntp posting host essex ecn uoknor edu organization engineering computer network university of oklahoma norman ok usa lines gt0523e prism gatech edu michael andre mule writes in article hydra gatech edu gt7469a prism gatech edu brian landmann writes later in the ninth inning with the bases loaded and two outs he puts lankford hitter with power in as pinch runner and uses luis alicea hitter with no power as pinch hitter what the helll is he thinking if memory serves me well alicea hit it and damn near tied the game torre obviously knows his players better than you do not to mention that lankford had been hurt two nights before running into the outfield wall this being the reason he was available to pinch anything his ribs were the problem so he could run but not hit torre is no white rat but give him credit for what he is pretty darn good manager with the exception of the felix fiasco but not sure who brainchild that was bil cardinals mailing list anyone anyone please path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech enterpoop mit edu senator bedfellow mit edu athena mit edu jfc from jfc athena mit edu john carr newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re proposed catcher re sub rule date apr gmt organization massachusetts institute of technology lines message id qmdk0innbq9 senator bedfellow mit edu references apr16 bnlux1 bnl gov nntp posting host achates mit edu the red sox usually have catchers don think they have backup now but they used to use randy kutcher as backup catcher as well as middle infielder and outfielder you don need good rd catcher just competent one so you can afford to lose little catching ability and pick player who can be of use elsewhere on the field john carr jfc athena mit edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net spool mu edu news nd edu irishvma rvesterm organization university of notre dame office of univ computing date thu apr est from rvesterm vma cc nd edu message id rvesterm vma cc nd edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re millitello update distribution usa references rvesterm vma cc nd edu apr14 alleg edu lines in article apr14 alleg edu millits yankee org sam millitello says uhhhh think spelled my name correctly sam millitello uhhhh there are only three bob vesterman path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net spool mu edu news nd edu irishvma rvesterm organization university of notre dame office of univ computing date thu apr est from rvesterm vma cc nd edu message id rvesterm vma cc nd edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re yankees win home opener distribution usa references netnews upenn edu apr14 alleg edu lines in article apr14 alleg edu millits yankee org sam millitello says telling you sam three call up mom and ask bob vesterman newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu mtissand from mtissand magnus acs ohio state edu michael tissandier subject re phillies sweep reds awful reds report message id apr16 magnus acs ohio state edu sender news magnus acs ohio state edu nntp posting host bottom magnus acs ohio state edu organization the ohio state university references c5ialu jn9 usenet ucs indiana edu date fri apr gmt lines in article c5ialu jn9 usenet ucs indiana edu rstimets silver ucs indiana edu robert and stimets writes actually not sure that philly won but they were ahead in the bottom of the eighth was going to post the box score but since cinci was playing so criminally bad the pub was at had to turn the game off so here what up cincinnati had seven hits all singles by the end of the eighth this makes it six games with exactly one extra base hit cincinnati was with runners in scoring position now if team is going to be completely without power they absolutely have to hit in clutch situations cincinnati starter tom browning pitched innings giving up runs and its while striking out he was surely the loser tonight reds starters while supposedly solid have won only one game this year of course the reds have only won two clean up batter sabo went besides yesterday homer he sucked at the plate dibble may not actually return friday this may not mean anything since cinci may not find themselves in save situation for while speaking of which the reds have ha exactly one lead this week for one and half innings after chris dinger on tuesday manager tony perez says the reds are just not swinging the bat well right now good call doggie well there big difference between just not swinging the bat well and what the reds are doing at the plate uuuggghhhh reds fan on the verge of nervous breakdown mike why is it that the prognosis on kevin mitchell is out days no matter what day you read it gary burbank ve told you before and ll tell you again the strong survive and the weak disappear we do not intend to disappear jimmy hoffa mtissand magnus acs ohio state edu cynically yours rstimets path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet spool mu edu agate usenet ins cwru edu cleveland freenet edu bm562 from bm562 cleveland freenet edu richard trionfo newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re wfan date apr gmt organization case western reserve university cleveland ohio usa lines message id qmfpt sut usenet ins cwru edu nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu hope that this comes off as somewhat unbiased assesment of wfan and wip go to school in philadelphia and listen to both stations on consistant basis now that the fan has mike lupica on from to noon they have person who can get the big name guests for interviews and not just of local importance he did have dave cheketts and fred wilpon on his show but he had bob costas and magic johnson on too now here are my opinions of the two stations competing talent morning show in my opinion think imus is much better than bruno cataldi and morganti even though would feel different if morganti had better crew of people to work with to me wip tries to copy imus but make it all sports as theme in terms of sports imus lacks the blanketing of the airwaves but he interjects humor and politics into his show am to noon think chuck cooperstein and lupica are equal in their abilities to host radio show but think chuck has the advantage over lupica in terms of dealing with the caller who is asking about who the local team is going to draft in the sixth round lupica and the other hosts on fan get better interview guests but heard the pd of wip say that they were not interested in interviews with celebrities unless it was major story would consider this even because they are two different styles of host noon to pm at this point would have to give big advantage to jody mcdonald over len berman because lenny has only been on for couple of weeks just think jm has the ability to transcend the homer mentality of the philadelphia fan base this is most evident when the iggles philadelphia spelling play the cowboys because jm is huge dallas fan where else can you have people call up and predict score without the egging of the hosts re wip morning guys do agree that jm was great on the fan weekend overnight and miss hearing him over the current crop of rotating hosts feel that jm is the best sportstalk host on either station by good margin if you are in ny and you can get wip jm does fill in on the weekends sometimes pm to pm this is the time when jm goes up against francesa and russo fatso and froot loops and become the most divided in my loyalties mike and the dog are very entertaining but they often go an hour or so without calls or even to minutes without talking about sports matd do get great guests and that is the basis for their show so it is like the to debate another plus is the appearances by mike and chris on imus in the morning which are often hilarious pm to pm matd go up against fredericks and missanelli like mike missanelli but just can stomach steve fredericks know that sf came from philly originally but when he was at the fan he was ny homer as much as he is philly homer now don listen to wip much after pm unless there is game on that night but you will see later for the reason that is why give the advantage to fan pm to midnight are on wip until and then it is the man who makes eli that calls matd all the time seem like novice on charges of racism cobb this man is so grating on my nerves that if listen to him for few minutes go nuts know that is biased but listen to his show on fan there is usually game on knicks rangers mets jets or st john basketball if the game is on the west coast then it is usually howie rose of course think dead air would be better than cobb on wip but wip does air sixers and flyers games during the season if this is the sports station why did they lose the iggles to wysp home of howard stern in phil during the summer it is all talk on wip overall would have to give the advantage to wfan with the exception of to and to where it is even and to where wip has the advantage rich you ve read the hat now see the movie imus in the morning blurb you re blurb seinfeld path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet spool mu edu agate usenet ins cwru edu cleveland freenet edu bm562 from bm562 cleveland freenet edu richard trionfo newsgroups rec sport baseball subject question about candlestick date apr gmt organization case western reserve university cleveland ohio usa lines message id qmfud t3l usenet ins cwru edu nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu have tickets for the tb giants and was wondering if anybody familiar with the stadium could tell me where section in the lower level is located please mail the response thanks rich you ve read the hat now see the movie imus in the morning blurb you re blurb seinfeld newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu geraldo cc utexas edu portal austin ibm com awdprime austin ibm com yogi austin ibm com marc from marc yogi austin ibm com marc stephenson subject re astros for real sender news austin ibm com news id message id c5ky58 kd austin ibm com date fri apr gmt references apr15 ccsvax sfasu edu organization ibm austin lines in article apr15 ccsvax sfasu edu millerwl ccsvax sfasu edu writes who thinks the astros are going places they re currently first place they re on the road agree lumberjack except that they re in nd they are going places san diego los angeles san francisco cincinnati denver atlanta miami philadelphia new york montreal pittsburgh chicago st louis and points in between but they re at home just not used to an overly enthusiastic houston fan really shouldn discourage it so hang in there lumberjack but get ahold of that shift key will ya obbase apparently the new owner drayton mclain sp doesn particularly like excuses an item in our paper the austin american statesman if you read it here it was somewhere else first said that he wouldn take injuries as an excuse for losing because that possibility should have been accounted for uh oh don want an owner that ll keep everybody on edge never gotten that feeling about him but who knows does anybody down there in the houston area have feel for how meddling of an owner mclain is going to be marc stephenson ibm aws advanced workstations systems austin tx disclaimer the content of this posting is independent of official ibm position internet marc austin ibm com vnet marc at ausvmq ibm newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech usenet ins cwru edu agate spool mu edu sdd hp com hpscit sc hp com news dtc hp com srgenprp craigs from craigs srgenprp sr hp com craig stelter subject re defensive averages third base sender news srgenprp sr hp com news administrator message id c5l068 v3 srgenprp sr hp com date fri apr gmt references c5jpwn iyt cs uiuc edu organization hp sonoma county srsd mwtd mid newsreader tin version pl9 lines dale stephenson steph cs uiuc edu wrote in c5jjrj em3 cs uiuc edu steph cs uiuc edu dale stephenson writes compiled from the last five defensive average reports here are the career das for the individual players in the reports stats are courtesy of sherri nichols players are listed in descending order and some comments with some players deleted third basemen leius scott looks good too bad he moving to short pagliarulo mike this is an interesting line his figure was slightly below average his was pathetic and his was the next best year by anybody part of that may be his mobility was with the yankees was with the padres who appear to have rotten infield was with the twins and judging by leius and gaetti the metrodome may be good place to play third gaetti gary apologies if don know what talking about but as twins fan like to think they have good players in any park not sure if remember completely or not but think gaetti played with the twins in for the world series and again in note that his lowest of the believe the next or at least the last two were played with the angels lots of factors make player excell hate it when so many use the dome it may not be ideal but nice to comfortably enjoy baseball and football even when it snowing and raining craig sure the company for which work does not have all the same opinions that do newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu ux1 cso uiuc edu bradley bradley edu camelot kingoz from kingoz camelot bradley edu orin roth subject re phils nl east not so weak message id kingoz camelot sender news bradley bradley edu nntp posting host camelot bradley edu organization bradley university references apr15 guvax acc georgetown edu date apr gmt lines in apr15 guvax acc georgetown edu apanjabi guvax acc georgetown edu writes love it how all of these people are blaming the phillies success on weak division why don we look at the record of the teams in each division read inter divisional play we ll see that the east is really kicking the shit out of the west know it is early but that is all we have to go on atlanta is just so strong with their ba cincinnati is coming off sweep at veteran stadium in philadelphia and houston was swept in it first three games by the phillies in the astrodome that my western division friends shows that the three best teams in your division may not be as strong as you think or you may be posting this way too early and be eating your words by mid season mon the phillies haven proved anything yet atlanta was similar to the phils years ago they sucked they started having good year but didn get any respect until they actually won the division which is how it should be so until the phils at least have good year not just good weeks they won get any respect either btw atlanta ba is actually compliment to how good the braves really are their record is can you imagine the phils record if they were batting hahahaha and atlanta hitting will improve dramatically no not braves fan just defending good team orin bradley phils all the way in braves hit like aaa club reds need marge bob really jester in disguise newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet psgrain qiclab nosun hilbert joec from joec hilbert cyprs rain com joe cipale subject re red sox lead after message id c5ji1b l7c hilbert cyprs rain com organization cypress semi beaverton or references c56zra ulowell ulowell edu date thu apr gmt lines in article c56zra ulowell ulowell edu stwombly cs ulowell edu steve twombly writes the boston red sox lead the kc royals after innings the sox are the only undefeated team in the al east after days go jump in the lake you non believers steve as have read this net the last few days am continually amazed at the pronouncements of baseball prowess by many individuals especially when it comes down to saying that the bosox haven prayer as long time red sox fan will simply say the impossible dream year for those of you with short memories short lives or both to be red sox fan is to continually be the subject of abuse and criticism from those who only follow the hot team this statement is supported based on the increased number of brave woofers out on the net true fan of team any team will follow that team through the good years as well as the lean years and be amply rewarded when the time is right yeah so what if buckner let roller go through his legs in who cares if clemens told cooley to go piss up rope and promptly earned quick shower the fact is they were one of the best teams in the league those years and the fans supported them now that it appears that they are on lean times the number of detracters come from all over so what let them play and we will see what happens come september the red sox may not be that good but they are certainly not that bad either and they do have chance to win the world series after all remember the mets who would have given them chance to even make it that far let alone beat baltimore let face it baseball is wonderful game and is far more unpredictable than football and basketball because of this one can never say with absolute certainity what the outcome will be over the course of games joec godot cyprs rain com warning elvis impersonating can be hazardous joec ursula ee pdx edu to your health it sure won help your reputation bike therefore am go red sox go celtics go seahawks go sonics newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net news centerline com uunet zaphod mps ohio state edu moe ksu ksu edu ux1 cso uiuc edu news cso uiuc edu uiatma hbrooks from hbrooks uiatma atmos uiuc edu harold brooks subject rbi risp and slg date fri apr gmt message id c5kzmd ijx news cso uiuc edu sender usenet news cso uiuc edu net noise owner organization bill safety cab and record bar chickasha ok lines off and on over the last several months threads about rbis and related topics have gotten me to thinking about how well we can predict player rbis using information about his overall performance and the number of runners in scoring position risp that he bats with in the brock2 model bill james calculated predicted rbis as rbi total bases home runs this completely ignores the context which was all that brock2 could do since context was unknown to it so thought take that idea as starting point and look how good fit to the data you get by comparing rbi home runs to slg risp ve started with team data using data from the elias that ve picked up over the years when could afford them and could stomach the thought of increasing elias profits that gave me the years and don have team rbis for or could add that year if you run simple least squares fit to the data you get rbi home runs slg risp the correlation between the lhs and the rhs is which is significant at ridiculously high level so feel like the fit is good at the team level ve no started to move on to the player level and have looked at players will clark ozzie smith joe carter and don mattingly hope to add quite few more during my copious free time this year it doesn do too badly except the equation underpredicts the low hr hitter smith which may be fault of the model or it could just be ozzie the results rbi hr years actual predicted carter clark matt ly smith think we can make case and hope to make it stronger that rbis can be predicted simply from knowing how player slugs overall and how many men are in scoring position when he comes up more later harold harold brooks hbrooks uiatma atmos uiuc edu national severe storms laboratory norman ok used to work for brewery too but didn drink on the job bavasi on dal maxvill view that florida can win the nl east in newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet gatech usenet ufl edu darwin sura net news udel edu ravel udel edu philly from philly ravel udel edu robert hite subject re dave kingman for the hall of fame message id c5l11t ha news udel edu keywords hall of fame winfield kingman murray joe lundy sender usenet news udel edu nntp posting host ravel udel edu organization university of delaware references apr15 news yale edu apr199316413057 jhuvms hcf jhu edu mssc5k4w5 gqe netcom com distribution na date fri apr gmt lines in article mssc5k4w5 gqe netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes no kingman fan just thought point out that he the only player in history to have five three hr games joe carter has four eddie murray three mccovey and gehrig also three ruth mays foxx and dawson two each didn mike schmidt also do this at least three times can remember twice in wrigley field alone he did it the same day kong did it in shootout and he swatted four there one day in april the month he set the april record with hr anybody remember any of this was just kid xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec sport baseball soc culture jewish path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com paladin american edu gatech enterpoop mit edu senator bedfellow mit edu loch mit edu awe from awe loch mit edu ari epstein newsgroups rec sport baseball soc culture jewish subject re jewish baseball players date apr gmt organization cmpo at mit lines distribution world message id qmie4innd9h senator bedfellow mit edu references apr93 lafibm lafayette edu qkkodinn5f5 jhunix hcf jhu edu apr15 midway uchicago edu nntp posting host loch mit edu think you can add former first baseman mike epstein no relation to the list ari path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com emory sol ctr columbia edu zaphod mps ohio state edu darwin sura net spool mu edu agate jtchern from jtchern ocf berkeley edu joseph hernandez newsgroups rec sport baseball subject mlb standings and scores for fri apr th date apr gmt organization jtc enterprises sports division major league baseball dept lines distribution world message id qmj6h m5h agate berkeley edu nntp posting host monsoon berkeley edu keywords mlb mlb standings and scores for friday april th including yesterday games national west won lost pct gb last streak home road san francisco giants won houston astros lost atlanta braves lost colorado rockies won los angeles dodgers lost san diego padres lost cincinnati reds lost national east philadelphia phillies won pittsburgh pirates won st louis cardinals won new york mets lost chicago cubs won montreal expos won florida marlins won american west won lost pct gb last streak home road texas rangers lost california angels won chicago white sox won minnesota twins lost oakland athletics lost seattle mariners lost kansas city royals won american east boston red sox won toronto blue jays won new york yankees lost detroit tigers won cleveland indians lost milwaukee brewers lost baltimore orioles won yesterday scores idle teams listed in alphabetical order national league american league houston astros seattle mariners montreal expos toronto blue jays new york mets oakland athletics colorado rockies detroit tigers pittsburgh pirates kansas city royals san diego padres new york yankees st louis cardinals cleveland indians los angeles dodgers boston red sox atlanta braves california angels ppd san francisco giants milwaukee brewers rain chicago cubs idle baltimore orioles idle cincinnati reds idle chicago white sox idle florida marlins idle minnesota twins idle philadelphia philliesidle texas rangers idle joseph hernandez rams lakers jtchern ocf berkeley edu kings dodgers raiders jtcent soda berkeley edu angels clippers path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu moe ksu ksu edu crcnis1 unl edu gwieman from gwieman unl edu gary wieman newsgroups rec sport baseball subject cards sweep la mets lose life is good date apr gmt organization university of nebraska lincoln lines distribution world message id qmk28inn1v9 crcnis1 unl edu nntp posting host unlinfo unl edu keywords cardinals just few lines about my favorite team sweeping the dodgers one of my least favorite in la sweet also the mets my other least favorite team loss to the rockies made this this great day and great start to the weekend as the cardinals are on the espn tonight big lee smith is having great start and the cardinals seem to be hitting in the clutch even though they have had few games with lots of hits and not many runs hopefully with the coaches stress on situational hitting in spring training the runners lob will be lower this year probably due to the high strikeout numbers by jose and lankford and zeile off year don know why all the fuss about the fillies the media and all the filly fans on forget who is right behind them in the standings give the wild thing week or two before he starts blowing some games and we ll see who is in first then believe the cardinal pitching staff is more complete than the filly staff and that will make the difference on side note few years ago comment was made by some baseball player or manager about the dodger defense he was asked where to hit the ball against the dodgers and he replied fair remember it being in the they said it section of sports illustrated would like to know who said it and what issue it was in go redbirds gary wieman path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net bigboote wpi edu ching from ching fledgling wpi edu jay heminger newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re tiger stadium gif date apr gmt organization worcester polytechnic institute lines distribution world message id qmjsp es bigboote wpi edu references qjqda meaddata meaddata com nntp posting host fledgling wpi edu originator ching fledgling wpi edu hate to be rude but screw the seating chart post the stadium instead the logistician reigns supreme go blue go tigers go pistons go lions go red wings ching wpi wpi edu newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet island fester from fester island com mike fester subject re notes on jays vs indians series message id apr16 island com sender usenet island com the usenet mail target organization usr local rn organization references apr13 csd newshost stanford edu rudyc5fxc8 deu netcom com apr13 midway uchicago edu distribution na date fri apr gmt lines in article apr13 midway uchicago edu thf2 midway uchicago edu writes in article rudyc5fxc8 deu netcom com rudy netcom com rudy wade writes in article apr13 csd newshost stanford edu nlu xenon stanford edu nelson lu writes guess which line is which ba obp slg ab hr bb the walks should give it away obp in general somewhat more valuable than slugging and alomar edge in obp was quite bit larger than baerga edge in slugging no sdcn but what more valuable hits more doubles more hrs or more triples and bbs let not forget the extra sbs how many cs alomar had cs baerga had don forget the more outs baerga had his gidp balances out his cs and he had one more sacrifice than alomar replacement level second baseman could have had hits walks and couple of xbh for the additional outs baerga had triple is little different than home run we re talking exchanging almost walks for six or seven home runs and four doubles would say the almost walks are more valuable also alomar got far greater boost from his home park than baerga did from his and six or seven home runs hmm so if you wanted to pick second baseman to play in toronto you take alomar anywhere else and you probably take baerga mike disclaimer these opiini damn wq wq exit quitbye ctrlaltdel logout save quit quit zz zzzzzz vi man vi help helpquit man help help exit quit ctrlshftdel hey what does stop l1a newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet zaphod mps ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu linac uchinews kimbark thf2 from thf2 kimbark uchicago edu ted frank subject re mlb standings and scores for fri apr th message id apr16 midway uchicago edu keywords mlb sender news uchinews uchicago edu news system reply to thf2 midway uchicago edu organization university of chicago references qmj6h m5h agate berkeley edu date fri apr gmt lines in article qmj6h m5h agate berkeley edu jtchern ocf berkeley edu joseph hernandez writes houston astros seattle mariners montreal expos toronto blue jays new york mets oakland athletics colorado rockies detroit tigers pittsburgh pirates kansas city royals san diego padres new york yankees st louis cardinals cleveland indians los angeles dodgers boston red sox atlanta braves california angels ppd san francisco giants milwaukee brewers rain this leads me to believe that it not really rabbitball year and that we ve just had rash of high scoring games bet this one day worth of games pulled everything back to close to average interesting because the other day all but three games had ten or more runs scored and yesterday no game had more than nine ted frank thf2 kimbark uchicago edu sorry the card says moops the of law school standard disclaimers newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet gatekeeper us oracle com decwrl netcomsv netcom com mss from mss netcom com mark singer subject re young catchers message id mssc5l21z mcb netcom com keywords solid good organization netcom online communications services login guest references blue cis pitt edu mssc50p03 cpg netcom com qlnkninn2sh aludra usc edu date fri apr gmt lines in article qlnkninn2sh aludra usc edu sheehan aludra usc edu joseph sheehan writes most of the points you made about lopez berryhill olson have been made by others and realizing that lopez must be the second coming of frank thomas have relented and praised the unmistakeable wisdom of his supporters nope they re baseball management possible the most short sighted collection of people in the nation do you not believe this goes on mark do you think frank thomas needed those three months in aaa in see this is essentially what everyone was doing comparing lopez to one of the best players in the game really looking forward to seeing this can miss superstar now as for thomas remember being an advocate of his being brought up in even though he was only or can remember but who did the sox have at first calderon martinez kittle the spot was there the talent was there sure say go for it am not convinced that lopez is anywhere near as talented as thomas was after his aa season in and am not convinced that olson berryhill are nearly as bad as kittle martinez were btw don think thomas was hurt by those three months or cal eldred wasn really better than ricky bones last year well if we can compare our guy to one of the best in the game let compare our decision to one of the most boneshead right cal eldred was when he came up with full season at aaa and longer minor league career frankly don know why he didn make the club in bones is year younger with lousy prior history and just watching him makes me think that missed career as big league pitcher no one repeat no one laughed louder than did at the sheffield trade though guess mieske has future take it back mcilvaine may have laughed louder you re mostly polite make defensible if flawed cases have wit and have in the past admitted being wrong that does qualify you on we ll make an sdcn out of you yet aw gee shucks thanks guy except missed the part where sdcn admit they re wrong the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net nic umass edu caen saimiri primate wisc edu usenet coe montana edu news washington edu stein washington edu jbrown from jbrown stein washington edu jeffery brown newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re early bbddd returns date apr gmt organization university of washington seattle lines message id qmko9innco3 shelley washington edu references apr16 news cs brandeis edu nntp posting host stein washington edu in article apr16 news cs brandeis edu st902415 pip cc brandeis edu writes just curious if anyone has started to standout early in the season in the bb ddd this year the tater that jack morris served to griffey the younger in his first at bat this year went feet if remember right ll have to check my scorecard at home think that the longest so far in the kingdome through the first stand five games there weak showing despite some promising taterball candidates ben mcdonald rich delucia and the rest of the mariner bullpen making appearances anyone have the tape measure value for omar vizquel grand slam in the skydome jeff brown big enchilada of the brown bag lunches astronomy dept jbrown washington edu of washington jbrown phast phys washington edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net bigboote wpi edu ching from ching fledgling wpi edu jay heminger newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re tigers date apr gmt organization worcester polytechnic institute lines distribution world message id qmk3j pf bigboote wpi edu references rk0vsanu miamiu bitnet nntp posting host fledgling wpi edu originator ching fledgling wpi edu all can say is the logistician reigns supreme go blue go tigers go pistons go lions go red wings ching wpi wpi edu newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet spool mu edu torn newshub ccs yorku ca orion yorku ca as000060 from as000060 orion yorku ca subject re notes on jays vs indians series message id apr16 orion yorku ca lines sender news newshub ccs yorku ca usenet news system organization york university references c5eewv il3 news ucs mun ca c5ep70 irh andy bgsu edu c5f6rj bj ncoast org distribution na date fri apr gmt in article c5f6rj bj ncoast org actuary ncoast org steven goldman writes so who will start this year all star game for the al probably alomar not to put him down he great player but it helps to have all the recognition he had plus to play in city which is likely to pour in the votes like alomar but like to differ with your opinion about city which is likely to pour in the votes attended many games last year during the balloting know that great number of the attendees did not fill out their ballots but left them beer soaked and torn on the floor of the stands toronto gets no more and no less votes than any other city for the all star game unfortunately this is not one time thing ve attended games during the last four seasons and it has happened every time the apathetic attitude to all star ballots really offends me ljs newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet haven umd edu darwin sura net ukma nntp msstate edu isis msstate edu js1 from js1 isis msstate edu jiann ming su subject bonilla message id apr16 ra msstate edu sender news ra msstate edu nntp posting host isis msstate edu organization mississippi state university distribution usa date fri apr gmt lines bobby bonilla supposedly use the word faggot when he got mad at that author in the clubhouse should he be banned from baseball for year like schott path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech pitt edu dtate from dtate pitt edu david tate newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re torre the worst manager message id blue cis pitt edu date apr gmt references hydra gatech edu bb1c589 dak988s vma smsu edu ext sender news pitt edu organization department of industrial engineering lines dak988s vma smsu edu said no hal mcrae is the worst manager in baseball ve never seen guy who can waste talent like he can one of the best raw talent staffs in the league and he still finding way to lose ll be surprised if he makes it through the next weeks unless drastic improvement is made confused how is it hal mcrae fault that he can win with team whose best offensive player is phil hiatt mean let be real kansas city will have to get outstanding years from their entire staff just to end up near they have less offense than any other team in baseball even if you count the expansion teams david tate dtate pitt edu greetings sir with bat not quick member iie orsa tims sabr hands not soft eye not discerning and in denver they call you slugger the big catullus galarraga and compare you to my own mattingly newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech usenet ins cwru edu agate spool mu edu uwm edu caen uvaarpa murdoch delmarva evsc virginia edu drw3l from drw3l delmarva evsc virginia edu david robert walker subject re braves pitching updatedir message id c5l40c lc murdoch acc virginia edu sender usenet murdoch acc virginia edu organization university of virginia references apr14 pts mot com blue cis pitt edu date fri apr gmt lines in article blue cis pitt edu traven pitt edu neal traven writes one of the chapters in palmer and thorn hidden game is titled pitching is of baseball implying that fielding is how do they determine that beats me it been long long time since read it this was my opinion the stupidest thing in the hidden game the argument was defense or runs allowed is of the game unearned runs amount to of the runs allowed earned runs since unearned runs are the result of fielding not pitching and earned runs are the product of pitching not fielding fielding is of defense and pitching is of defense caombining with pitching is of the game fielding pete is usually sharper than that my own feel is that fielding is in the of defense range call it between fielding and pitching one also has to separate offense into batting and baserunning with the split probably somewhere around and give baserunning little more credit than that maybe or even give team of roberto alomar and team of john oleruds identical batting stats which wouldn be that unreasonable and even if you don let roberto steal single base they ll score lot more than the oleruds by going first to third more often no offense gordon clay from boell hpcc01 corp hp com donald boell date thu apr gmt subject re best homeruns message id hpcc01 corp hp com organization the hp corporate notes server path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net news centerline com uunet zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com hpscit sc hp com hplextra hpcc05 hpcc01 boell newsgroups rec sport baseball references c568a3 e1r cs dal ca lines have to say the most impressive hrs ve ever see came from dave kingman and his infamous moon raker drives don boell newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech usenet ins cwru edu agate spool mu edu uwm edu cs utexas edu newsfeed rice edu rice schaefer from schaefer owlnet rice edu andrew james schaefer subject re best sportwriters message id c5l3lg ar rice edu keywords sportswriters sender news rice edu news organization rice university references apr16 cabell vcu edu c5k7nk tv news cso uiuc edu date fri apr gmt lines in article c5k7nk tv news cso uiuc edu rkoffler ux4 cso uiuc edu bighelmet writes csc2imd cabell vcu edu ian derby writes since someone brought up sports radio howabout sportswriting happen to be big fan of jayson stark he is baseball writer for the philadelphia inquirer every tuesday he writes week in review column he writes about unusual situations that occured during the week unusual stats he has section called kinerisms of the week which are stupid lines by mets brodcaster ralph kiner every year he has the lgtgah contest that stands for last guy to get hit he also writes for baseball america that column is sort of highlights of week in review if you can check his column out sometime he might make you laugh rob koffler isn stark that idiot who writes in baseball america twice month he writes who woulda thunk it article which is really the same piece every time who would have thought that buddy biancalana would have more home runs than the colorado rockies babe ruth omar vizquel and nolan ryan combined he an idiot if it the same guy you live day to day and rkoffler ux4 cso uiuc edu dream about tomorrow don henley andrew path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net news centerline com uunet gossip pyramid com pyramid infmx barrym from barrym informix com barry mednick newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re jewish baseball players summary few names message id apr16 informix com date apr gmt references apr93 lafibm lafayette edu sender barry mednick organization informix software inc lines in article apr93 lafibm lafayette edu vb30 lafibm lafayette edu vb30 writes just wondering friend and were talking the other day and we were for some reason trying to come up with names of jewish maybe john lowenstein lowenstein is not jewish however there is long list including hank greenberg moe berg rod carew convert the sherry brothers art shamsky and ron blomberg barry path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet zaphod mps ohio state edu ub dsinc gvls1 gvlf4 edd from edd gvlf4 gvl unisys com ed dougherty newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re phills vs pirates summary good baseball keywords mlb message id apr16 vfl paramax com date apr gmt references none sender news vfl paramax com iee news user organization unisys defense systems great valley labs paoli pa lines nntp posting host gvlf4 as philly fan as as penna baseball fan anxious to see the penna series anyone know when it starts and where the first games will be played this is think always good baseball to me and the pirates are also off to good start ed doc newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet zaphod mps ohio state edu malgudi oar net hyperion jclouse from jclouse discover wright edu jim clouse subject world series stats message id c5l1xl in8 hyperion wright edu sender news hyperion wright edu usenet news system nntp posting host discgate organization wright state university newsreader tin version pl8 date fri apr gmt lines does anybody else think that ws stats should become part of player career stats why not path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu husc news harvard edu zariski fry newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re jewish baseball players message id apr16 husc3 harvard edu from fry zariski harvard edu david fry date apr edt references apr93 lafibm lafayette edu apr15 pony ingres com organization harvard math department nntp posting host zariski harvard edu lines once on jeopardy the category was jewish sports heros believe it or not the answer was this pitcher had four no hitters with the dodgers in the the contestant said who is hank aaron alex trebek said something like don think hank aaron was pitcher david fry fry math harvard edu division of applied sciences fry huma1 bitnet harvard university harvard huma1 fry cambridge ma newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com emory swrinde zaphod mps ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu linac att bgsuvax klopfens from klopfens andy bgsu edu bruce klopfenstein subject ind source picks baerga over alomar case closed message id c5l6dn ub andy bgsu edu organization bowling green state university oh references apr15 island com distribution na date fri apr gmt lines fester island com mike fester writes say you could make good for them being about equal right now rated baerga higher actually mike finally an objective source alomar great player but so is baerga nice to see the objective source cited rather than my dad bigger than your dad posts bk newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen usenet cis ufl edu usenet ufl edu gatech news feed peachnet edu bogus sura net howland reston ans net noc near net news cs brandeis edu chaos cs brandeis edu noel from noel chaos cs brandeis edu noel rappin subject re usa mcweekly stats message id noel chaos cs brandeis edu sender news news cs brandeis edu usenet news system organization brandeis university references franjion spot colorado edu rvesterm vma cc nd edu apr20 mnemosyne cs du edu rvesterm vma cc nd edu date wed apr gmt lines rvesterm vma cc nd edu writes some discussion about whether elias is money grubbing deleted funny it seems to me that the stats major league and minor league handbooks which are nothing but collections of statistics are authored by bill james and stats inc and howe for the minor league handbook and am not sure how the bill james player ratings book qualifies as book with statistics while the elias analyst is statistics book the analyst contains more stats sure but it also contains more dialogue finally the point was not about the word statistics it was about money grubbing don see how anyone who has looked at the bill james player ratings book cannot consider him money grubbing bob vesterman some thoughts and facts bill james is partial owner of stats inc however he has almost nothing to do with the day to day operations of the company although he does have significant input into the design of the books that bear his name the handbook but not the scoreboard to the best of my knowledge the only things that bill actually writes for stats are the predictions section of the handbook and the bill james fantasy baseball rulebook the debate over elias goes way back bill james early stuff was hampered by the fact that elias would not give access to their stats at any price project scoresheet and later stats were founded to fill this void you can call stats and ask them for report on just about anything in their database and they will provide it for price of course or you could just log into their online system and look at the data yourself having attempted to pry numbers from elias in the past football not baseball they just don do that in stats eyes the high ground comes from making the information available at all that being said pretty dissapointed by bill book this year too am given to understant that it was mostly response to the publishers desire to have the book come out sooner than april hope this makes things just little bit clearer bias alert am former part time employee of stats noel rappin noel chaos cs brandeis edu newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen usenet cis ufl edu usenet ufl edu gatech news feed peachnet edu bogus sura net howland reston ans net noc near net news cs brandeis edu chaos cs brandeis edu noel from noel chaos cs brandeis edu noel rappin subject re box score abbrev woes message id noel chaos cs brandeis edu sender news news cs brandeis edu usenet news system organization brandeis university references apr15 scott skidmore edu apr20 asd com date wed apr gmt lines scott asd com scott barman writes in article apr15 scott skidmore edu jrogoff scott skidmore edu jay rogoff writes can anybody figure out why some box score abbreviations make absolutely no sense at least in the local gannett rag that finds its way to my door must have stared at cleman in the mets box for good seconds this morning wondering who the hell it was wouldn it make more sense to use colemn ve seen it as colmn also blame the associated press after the official scorer balances the official score card they copy it and give it to several diffent people one of those is person from ap whose job it is to type it up using template on laptop and transmit it to the ap offices in new york rockefeller center via the telephone the box scores are not checked and just rebroadcasted over ap news delivery services if there are corrections those are issued later it is the person sitting in front of laptop at shea or whereever whose fault that is note the ap puts out boxscores in three different formats with the one you see in most newspapers being the first one not totally true for the past year or two the ap has been getting box scores from stats inc the ap representative in the press box is actually stats reporter dollars game but free parking and anybody can do it the box is downloaded to stats in chicago some quick error checking is done and then stats sends it to the ap not sure where the appreveiations come in hear don think it is at stats it may just be space correction by the ap sports editor that day while mentioning stats reporters they are always looking for new people especially if you live in cleveland or pittsburgh you re road to getting into the press box may be real short for more info call stats and ask about the reporter network it fun way to get paid for watching baseball games end of public service announcement last week they were in denver maybe the ap person in denver did this remember they just started with mlb out there check tomorrow paper and see if the person who is doing it from shea does the same thing noel rappin noel chaos cs brandeis edu newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen uwm edu cs utexas edu utnut helios physics utoronto ca wyllie from wyllie helios physics utoronto ca andrew wyllie subject re jays darrin jackson is nightmare message id c5ui7d t1 helios physics utoronto ca sender news helios physics utoronto ca news administrator organization university of toronto physics astronomy cita references apr20 alchemy chem utoronto ca c5smzy bde ra nrl navy mil ior slacvm slac stanford edu c5svp3 fja ra nrl navy mil date wed apr gmt lines in article c5svp3 fja ra nrl navy mil klinker itd nrl navy mil eric klinker writes in article ior slacvm slac stanford edu thomas hyer ior slacvm slac stanford edu writes in article c5smzy bde ra nrl navy mil klinker itd nrl navy mil eric klinker says dj was popular player in san diego derek bell was not faring well in the clubhouse at toronto so no matter how bad he looks now still think it was steal for the jays just from the perspective of team chemistry laugh at you now and will laugh at you again equally publicly when the jays finish third due to the severe depletion of their talent the jays will finish third because of the depletion of their pitching staff not because derek bell was traded for darrin jakson couldn agree more the jays have lot of power in their line up so far pitching has been the biggest problem maybe we can get acker back but anyway the point of my post if you missed it was that derek bell was traded because he was basically in the doghouse with cito and the rest of the team one incident that sticks out in my mind was when derek bell ran back out on to the feild after the jays had won the division and all the players were back in the clubhouse bell ran around the field with his arms in the air waving big towel over his head he looked like big jerk especially when you consider he did not contribute much to the team over the whole season the next day winfield and carter somehow got the keys to bell jeep and brought it out on to the feild before the game started the stadium announcer said that there was going to be draw later in the game for bell jeep bell really freaked out don think bell was to popular after that think that jackson might be trying little too hard right now he known for being great outfielder and he not the only blue jay who has been booting balls and playing generally awful andrew andrew wyllie wyllie physics utoronto ca mrcs university of toronto path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen usenet cis ufl edu usenet ufl edu gatech howland reston ans net bogus sura net jhunix hcf jhu edu jhuvms hcf jhu edu doctor8 from doctor8 jhuvms hcf jhu edu jason abner miller newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re you could look it up date apr est organization the johns hopkins university hcf lines distribution na message id apr199314100719 jhuvms hcf jhu edu references apr21 alchemy chem utoronto ca nntp posting host jhuvms hcf jhu edu news software vax vms vnews in article apr21 alchemy chem utoronto ca mark writes yes could look it up but prefer to post this question to the net read somewhere in long forgotten article that the handsignals used by major league umps were originally used to help deaf ball player by the name of dummy urban myth true gots ta know dummy hoy late th century baseball player was deaf in order for him to be able to find out whether the pitch was ball or strike the umpires developed hand signals this also helped to relieve the stress on umpires vocal cords so they didn have to shout strike or ball times game heard about this one from the only worthwhile baseball book john thorn has ever authored century of baseball lore mark mbrownel alchemy chem utoronto ca jason miller some doctor guy frank tanana win newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net noc near net uunet ulowell cs ulowell edu stwombly from stwombly cs ulowell edu steve twombly subject re fenway message id c5t5pd jbi ulowell ulowell edu sender usenet ulowell ulowell edu news manager ulowell organization umass lowell computer science references c5skyu lar dartvax dartmouth edu date wed apr gmt lines hi does anybody know the for ticket info for fenway less than people or more steve path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel louie newsserver jvnc net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu ub oswego soswva ma ind25 from ma ind25 blurt oswego edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re ugliest stance message id apr21 blurt oswego edu date apr gmt organization suny college at oswego oswego ny lines don know think phil plantier has the ugliest stance he looks like he sitting on the toilet brian tbo rosen path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net news cac psu edu psuvm jxj101 organization penn state university date tue apr edt from john johnson jxj101 psuvm psu edu message id jxj101 psuvm psu edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re best homeruns references apr19 rose com apr19 hpcvaac cv hp com lines mike schmidt th not only milestone but also th inning game winner john path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net news cac psu edu psuvm jxj101 organization penn state university date tue apr edt from john johnson jxj101 psuvm psu edu message id jxj101 psuvm psu edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re phils nl east not so weak references apr15 guvax acc georgetown edu kingoz camelot lines in article kingoz camelot kingoz camelot bradley edu orin roth says or you may be posting this way too early and be eating your words by mid season mon the phillies haven proved anything yet atlanta was similar to the phils years ago they sucked they started having the phillies finished third years ago the braves really are their record is can you imagine the phils record if they were batting hahahaha and atlanta hitting will improve dramatically the phillies opponents haven hit much better eat our words or not forgive us the true fans in philly have been through lot john newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net bogus sura net darwin sura net sgiblab sgigate odin kubey from kubey sgi com ken kubey subject re hbp bb big cat message id c5uiph fq odin corp sgi com sender news odin corp sgi com net news nntp posting host summit wpd sgi com organization silicon graphics inc mountain view ca references blue cis pitt edu apr20 ncar ucar edu mjones fenway distribution na date wed apr gmt lines in article mjones fenway mjones donald aix kingston ibm com writes it would help if his obp were higher than his batting average yes the april usa today lists le grand chapeau as having batting average and obp okay ll bite how can obp be lower than batting average sac flies or something ken kubey kubey wpd sgi com xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec sport baseball rec sport baseball fantasy path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu wupost wuvmd c09875d0 organization washington university st louis message id c09875d0 wuvmd wustl edu date tue apr cst from mark kornbluh c09875d0 wuvmd wustl edu to netnews wuvmd subject re ray lankford question newsgroups rec sport baseball rec sport baseball fantasy references apr20 mnemosyne cs du edu lines in article apr20 mnemosyne cs du edu msilverm nyx cs du edu mike silverman says does anybody know what is going on with lankford know he was out for few games with slight injury but since he has beenback and before the injury for that matter he has been really struggling at the plate and on the basepaths whereis the ray lankford we saw last year be patient he has sore shoulder from crashing into the wall the cards will give him all the time he needs to come around he is their full time centerfielder he will not however steal as often this year as he is hitting clean up mark kornbluh newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net agate headwall stanford edu nntp stanford edu punjabi from punjabi leland stanford edu sanjeev punjabi subject why is barry bonds not batting th message id apr21 leland stanford edu sender news leland stanford edu mr news organization dsg stanford university ca usa date wed apr gmt lines as the heading indicates it is impossible for me to fathom why barry is not batting th for the giants behind will clark barry is such an awesome and consistent hitter definitely the best in the national league imho to have williams streaky hitter and not really clutch hitter batting th ahead of bonds is simply an injustice to the giants and fans of the giants path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu sdd hp com news cs indiana edu bsu cs bsu ucs uucp cgbabbitt from cgbabbitt leo bsuvc bsu edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re and america team is but why message id apr20 bsu ucs date apr gmt references kingoz camelot organization ball state university muncie in univ computing svc lines in article kingoz camelot kingoz camelot bradley edu orin roth writes well officially it the braves at least up until they started winning it was are they still officially if so why and how did they receive this label unoffically but without doubt america team is the cubs why well my guess is because america loves underdogs every year no matter the cubs talent or the predictions they never as close to never as possible win anything over the years as the losing has mounted america has fallen in love with these perennial losers the cubs have more fans in chicago then some teams do worldwide the cubs have more fans worldwide than most of the teams in their division combined an aura of excitement surrounds the cubs at the beginning of the season like no one else including the ws champs it must be that eternal hope this is the year they ve got the talent they re off to good start they ve got the pitching or hitting or whatever their strong point is at the time it that inevitability that the cubs will eventually win the ws again when only god knows since it been so long it could come at any time or it could be another years but until they do finally win and start winning consistently the cubs will remain america lovable underdogs the cubs are america team orin bradley really jester in disguise you are absolutely correct braves fans are nothing but bunch of bandwagoners correct me if am wrong but or years ago you couldnt give away ticket to see the braves play would bet my next paycheck that of the so called braves fans living outside of georgia at the present time can not name more than players from their season on the other hand ask any cubs fan living anywhere in the united states to name players from any given year and of them probably could granted the fact that team wins brings people to the ball park but that does not mean they diserve the title america team the only reason they are considered america team is because of ted turner and his little tv station which broadcasts across the nation ll consider toronto america team before the braves go reds chris babbitt cgbabbitt leo bsuvc bsu edu all want in life is woman to love and woman to care for my kids hopefully the two will never meet newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net noc near net news cs brandeis edu chaos cs brandeis edu cuz from cuz chaos cs brandeis edu cousin it subject re jack morris message id cuz chaos cs brandeis edu sender news news cs brandeis edu usenet news system organization brandeis university references apr19 csd newshost stanford edu c5qxkz erf news2 cis umn edu apr19 news stolaf edu apr20 locus com date wed apr gmt lines aardvark cygnus la locus com warren usui writes so alfredo griffin is better than barry larkin if rings is what you re judging by then don see your point since barry has one yes but alfredo has at least two dodgers and blue jays not only that he has won world series rings for more different teams than babe ruth and lou gehrig combined how do we know that the yankee dynasty was not due to lazarri being at third warren agree with your premise but the babe won on two teams that right he was part of the red sox dynasty of the and everyone knows that the yankee dynsaty wouldn have happened without thier famous bullpen catcher whose name escapes me at the moment cuz newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net sol ctr columbia edu usenet ucs indiana edu silver ucs indiana edu rstimets from rstimets silver ucs indiana edu robert and stimets subject belcher terrific tomlin not reds win redreport message id c5tff4 dca usenet ucs indiana edu sender robert stimets nntp posting host silver ucs indiana edu organization indiana university date wed apr gmt lines tim belcher pitched dandy three hit shut out tonight as cincinnati won their second straight pittsburgh lefty randy tomlin was hit early and often by the heavily right unbalanced reds line up which managed some recently rare power with their bats belcher was solid throughout and in fact seemed to get stronger as the game progressed early on he had several three ball counts but even those were few and far between later on as he allowed only one base on balls while striking out nine in post game interview he said his change up was working for him should say so all nine of his strikeouts were apparently on breaking balls tomlin on the other hand was in trouble early giving up second pitch double to lead off batter bip roberts bobby kelly followed with single and barry larkin scored roberts with sharp single to right the big guys mitchell sabo milligan were unable to get anything after that in fact they all struck out but kelly managed score anyway due to double steal and tomlin wild pitch in fact it appeared that tomlin was going to recover nicely from his shaky start he retired of the next batters to get to the fourth behind only randy milligan though had different ideas as his line shot was poorly played by orlando merced and turned into triple milligan would later score on reggie sanders sacrifice fly giving cinci the lead after the fifth inning spelled loss for tomlin when roberts led off with his second double of the game and one batter later larkin smacked double down the left field line chasing tomlin barry later would score the final run on tom prince two base passed ball the pirates managed their only threat of the day in the bottom half of the fifth when merced and kevin young hit back to back singles the second being of the bunt variety but carlos garcia struck out prince fit foul fly and pinch hitter lonnie smith to end any pittsburgh hope pittsburgh pitchers backed tomlin up well though relievers blas minor moeller sp and nagel gave up only two hits in their four plus innings work barry larkin left the game in the seventh when the grounder he mis played bruised his right thumb he was taken to the hospital for precautionary rays let hope he ok cincinnati is now still the worst record in the majors but with the two wins they may be looking at moving out of the cellar pittsburgh is now reds fans if you would like to receive this report on semi daily basis as often as write it send me your mail address and ll put you on the list if someone has reds mailing list please forward it to me and ll put everyone on the list cincinnati reds ab bb lo roberts kelly cf larkin ss branson ss mitchell lf hernandez lf sabo milligan sanders rf oliver belcher totals milligan off tomlin leading off fourth scored roberts off tomlin leading off first scored roberts off tomlin leading off fifth scored larkin off tomlin in fifth one out runner on second rbi scored sf sanders rbi larkin sanders sb kelly larkin gdp sabo pittsburgh pirates ab bb lo martin lf bell ss van slyke cf king merced rf young garcia prince tomlin minor smith ph moeller waynor ph nagel gdp merced cincinnati pittsburgh pitching ip er bb cincinnati belcher cg so line of the day larkin pittsburgh tomlin minor moeller nagel wp tomlin pb prince umps rippley hallion quick crawford att coming up the reds play two more in pitts then go to chicago for weekend series the weather doesn look good though don be surprised if one or more games get rained out tomorrow jose rijo vs steve cook then smiley vs wakefield on thursday rstimets newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu caen nigel msen com yale edu news yale edu news from mlocker biomed med yale edu michael locker subject re jewish broadcasters was jewish baseball players in reply to kahn troi cc rochester edu message of apr gmt message id apr21 news yale edu sender news news yale edu usenet news system nntp posting host biomed med yale edu organization yale university references apr17 princeton edu c5mu5z hh8 unix amherst edu apr17 princeton edu apr20 galileo cc rochester edu date wed apr gmt news reader vms news lines in apr20 galileo cc rochester edu kahn troi cc rochester edu writes let not forget al michaels of do you believe in miracles fame jim of course you can forget mel allen michael path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net bogus sura net jhunix hcf jhu edu jhunix hcf jhu edu not for mail from bck csm jhunix hcf jhu edu brian klaff newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re best homeruns date apr organization homewood academic computing johns hopkins university baltimore md usa lines sender bck csm jhunix hcf jhu edu message id r43mcinnjte jhunix hcf jhu edu references apr19 rose com apr19 hpcvaac cv hp com jxj101 psuvm psu edu nntp posting host jhunix hcf jhu edu how about brooks robinson last homerun ever came on at memorial stadium with one out and two on in the bottom of the th inning larry harlow was due up but brooks pinch hit pitch from dave laroche into the left field bleachers for win brian klaff newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu csn boulder ucsu spot colorado edu franjion from franjion spot colorado edu john franjione subject re game length was re braves update message id franjion spot colorado edu sender news ucsu colorado edu usenet news system nntp posting host spot colorado edu organization university of colorado boulder references apr20 wvnvms wvnet edu apr93 vax clarku edu mzimmersc5sllk ld9 netcom com mssc5t13o l5s netcom com date wed apr gmt lines in article apr93 vax clarku edu hhenderson vax clarku edu writes agree with nick what the big deal about long games if you want to watch baseball there that much more baseball to watch and yes baseball includes the space between plays as well as the plays themselves don really mind the length of games either if they want to speed the games up in sensible ways that fine with me too however what object to is the assertion by baseball people whitey herzog buck rodgers are who ve heard say this that games are too long because hitters are taking too many pitches and that the strike zone needs to be expanded john franjione department of chemical engineering university of colorado boulder franjion spot colorado edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net noc near net saturn caps maine edu maine maine edu barber organization university of maine system date wed apr edt from wayne barber barber maine maine edu message id barber maine maine edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re braves update references news duke edu apr19 adobe com news duke edu c5sysg kad odin corp sgi com steph pegasus cs uiuc edu lines in article steph pegasus cs uiuc edu steph pegasus cs uiuc edu dale stephenson says the events saw were called strike by hirschbeck shocked looking gant asks for appeal to first no appeal to first gant steps out of batters box hirschbeck immediately orders gant back in bad move even noticed that gant demeanor was not one of batter attempting to regain his concentration gant was stalking off wonder if gant said something to the ump gant ignores hirschbeck and walks off bad move actually there was small hand wave by gant as if to say don bother me gant may have said something here too hirschbeck yells at gant gant is silent hirschbeck calls for the pitch pitch is called strike cox argues couldn see when he came on the field cox was already halfway to the ump when the strike was called cox is ejected players everywhere play finally resumes gant shouldn have ignored hirschbeck not returning made the strike call fairly likely although suspect an argument might have gotten gant tossed altogether but if hirschbeck had let gant step out the whole incident probably would have been avoided my impression was that gant was not stepping out he was making protest about the lack of an appeal to first as has been pointed out earlier there is no appeal to first on strike can understand gant feeling little pressure in two out risp game ninth inning he let it get to him the ump also overreacted gant was stalking off but doubt he would have been gone long hirschbeck should have let him have moment to compose himself before telling him to come bat imho umpires should be more flexible than what hirschbeck showed gant was disturbed to the point it was pretty likely he would not get hit very bad finish to pretty good game dale stephenson steph cs uiuc edu baseball fanatic it is considered good to look wise especially when not overburdened with information golden kimball wayne barber data support specialist university of maine system internet barber maine maine edu newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net noc near net uunet boulder ucsu spot colorado edu franjion from franjion spot colorado edu john franjione subject re why is barry bonds not batting th message id franjion spot colorado edu sender news ucsu colorado edu usenet news system nntp posting host spot colorado edu organization university of colorado boulder references apr21 leland stanford edu r2mek hlq menudo uh edu date wed apr gmt lines st1ge elroy uh edu edward hui writes in article apr21 leland stanford edu punjabi leland stanford edu sanjeev punjabi writes as the heading indicates it is impossible for me to fathom why barry is not batting th for the giants behind will clark barry is such an awesome and consistent hitter definitely the best in the national league imho to have williams streaky hitter and not really clutch hitter batting th ahead of bonds is simply an injustice to the giants and fans of the giants simple reasons having bonds batting behind williams means that matt will get more good pitches to hit this is important since he struggles so much with breaking balls opposing pitchers don want to walk williams to get to bonds don understand this at all matt williams has demonstrated throughout his career that he will not wait for good pitches to hit he won take walks he rather swing if the opposing pitcher why would groove fastball to williams and have him hit it well when know that williams will swing and miss or at least not hit very well at low and away curve john franjione department of chemical engineering university of colorado boulder franjion spot colorado edu newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net noc near net uunet walter porthos mse cc bellcore com from mse cc bellcore com michael evenchick f113 subject re best first basemen organization bellcore livingston nj date wed apr gmt message id apr21 porthos cc bellcore com followup to re best first basemen references apr20 tesla njit edu rvesterm vma cc nd edu sender netnews porthos cc bellcore com usenet system software lines in article apr20 tesla njit edu drm6640 tesla njit edu says don mattingly is the best first baseman in the history of baseball always has been always will be always has been even before he was even conceived of that neat trick always will be we leave lot of room for error don we hopefully missed an earlier post that this was with regard to otherwise well leave that to the individual to fill in but will say what about gehrig shortened and not capitalized for the ease of the reader mike newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net news centerline com uunet gatech darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu ames pasteur louven berkeley edu scunning from scunning louven berkeley edu sean cunningham subject candlestick message id apr21 pasteur berkeley edu sender nntp pasteur berkeley edu nntp poster nntp posting host louven berkeley edu organization university of california berkeley date wed apr gmt lines hey folks saw the giants play ball at the stick saturday april it was the game where pendelton broke up the scoreless tie in the ninth with two out two run homer to right to win it it wasn the game where the fans threw the give away fotoballs onto the field in response to the homer too bad huh well the stick is still cold the saturday game ended at pm and it was cold then can imagine night games in april at the stick the wind kicked up little too and got this idea at most games there pile of hot dog wrappers and cups and trash on the field lot of the time propose kid clean up corps composed mainly of year old kids who would love nothing better than to run out on the field in the fifth inning when the guy in the toro smooths the infield and grab the trash it might not be glamorous but at that age probably would have given anything to be on the field with the ballplayers everybody wins here whaddaya think sean newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu agate headwall stanford edu nntp stanford edu bohnert from bohnert leland stanford edu matthew bohnert subject re why is barry bonds not batting th message id apr21 leland stanford edu sender news leland stanford edu mr news organization dsg stanford university ca usa references apr21 leland stanford edu r2mek hlq menudo uh edu date wed apr gmt lines consistent hitter definitely the best in the national league imho to have williams streaky hitter and not really clutch hitter batting th ahead of bonds is simply an injustice to the giants and fans of the giants having bonds batting behind williams means that matt will get more good pitches to hit this is important since he struggles so much with breaking balls opposing pitchers don want to walk williams to get to bonds you re definitely correct in that williams absolutely has to be sandwiched in between clark and bonds he must and mean must get fastballs to hit otherwise he becomes little more than sixto lezcano in disguise what would suggest is perhaps batting bonds williams and clark the reason being that feel bonds potential basestealing abilities are wasted when he stuck behind two slow runners think the chance of getting extra stolen bases with bonds in the spot would more than offset any drop in in run production by having clark in the spot matt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net noc near net uunet meaddata brian from brian meaddata com brian curran newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re you could look it up date apr gmt organization mead data central dayton oh lines distribution world message id r43jm m0c meaddata meaddata com references apr21 alchemy chem utoronto ca nntp posting host taurus meaddata com in article apr21 alchemy chem utoronto ca mark writes yes could look it up but prefer to post this question to the net read somewhere in long forgotten article that the handsignals used by major league umps were originally used to help deaf ball player by the name of dummy urban myth true gots ta know true william dummy hoy was baseball first deaf player he played in the bigs from through for several teams including the white sox and reds brian curran mead data central brian meaddata com ve never had coach in my life when find one who can beat me then ll listen lee trevino professional golfer newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net bogus sura net udel news intercon com psinntp panix spira from spira panix com greg sarcasm is way of life spira subject re relative value of players message id c5t19p aeg panix com sender spira panix com greg spira organization boo references c5ro4h lww world std com kime apr20133127 mongoose torolab ibm com date tue apr gmt lines in kime apr20133127 mongoose torolab ibm com kime mongoose torolab ibm com edward kim writes in article c5ro4h lww world std com jle world std com joe leonard writes before folks jump on me let me ask the net would the jays have won the al with good pitcher from aaa in place of morris given his run support how about an average ml pitcher can believe that morris performance in the playoffs and series had large positive impact on the jays performance know it very trendy nowadays to dump on morris but let give credit where credit is due it is doubtful that the blue jays would have won the al east without morris well when you say without morris you have to mention an assumed replacement if the alternative to morris was letting cito gaston soft toss the ball underhand to the opposition every days then of course the blue jays wouldn have won without morris if the alternative was replacement level then think it would ve been very close and yes morris might ve made the difference if the alternative was frank viola the blue jays probably would have won more easily with viola last year when the team went for the month of august and all the other starters were being shelled and milwaukee was making charge morris went with pretty good era can remember exactly yes you can make the argument that the his presence prevented the team from collapsing in august also let not underestimate the importance his innings to save the bullpen every fifth day if he didn help us win the al east forget about the pennent and the world series those innings were probably helpful his run support was high runs but so was stottlemyer runs and he won only games do remember morris winning an inordinate number of and ballgames but this is to his credit he pitched only as good as he needed to be when he was up in ballgame he just put it in cruise control and threw the ball up there and let the batters get themseleves out hate this expression an inexperienced pitcher would wear himself out trying to make perfect pitches to keep his era down but morris being veteran pitcher knows that winning is the only thing that really matters in baseball by saving himself he was able to reach back for that little extra hate this too when the game was on the line well think is complete bs what happened most of the time is that morris fell behind and the team came back and rescued him mostly this is because he lousy st inning pitcher and much better the rest of the way that the team can climb out of holes consistently and win them is not to morris credit it to the team credit furthermore while morris did exceed the percentage that would be projected from his runs allowed and run support he hasn done this in previous years in fact his record in is lot worse than what it projects to be with run support and runs allowed do you think he just came up with this ability in look at the postseason games he pitched decently in typical morris games morris gets behind team rescues him he not responsible for that rescue and in both those games the team just didn rescue him enough jack morris pitched as well as he did during much of the season in those games the offense just didn earn him victory btw think he should be put in the bullpen it would be embarrassing veteran pitcher which cito would never do but his era is how much more can he be embarrassed morris is one of those guys who will reture when he can start anymore he too bad first inning pitcher to serve in the bullpen greg path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net bogus sura net jhunix hcf jhu edu jhunix hcf jhu edu not for mail from bck csm jhunix hcf jhu edu brian klaff newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re jack morris date apr organization homewood academic computing johns hopkins university baltimore md usa lines sender bck csm jhunix hcf jhu edu message id r448cinnl0m jhunix hcf jhu edu references apr19 csd newshost stanford edu apr19 ramsey cs laurentian ca apr21 bcars6a8 bnr ca nntp posting host jhunix hcf jhu edu did anyone happen to see peter gammons on espn last night he addressed this exact issue and dismissed it rather quickly according to gammons advanced scouts are reporting that morris fastball and slider still have the same zip and that his problems this year are due to his sudden inability to keep the ball hidden during his release guzman and stottlemyre have gone through similar stretches that have been cleared up succinctly by little work with the pitching coach gammons looks to see morris back in top form within the month on the other hand still have my doubts morris era last year was rather high for pitcher who won games his showing in the series was not surprising although not convinced that he washed up have my doubts as to whether or not he can ever regain the form he had for the twins in brian klaff newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net noc near net black clarku edu vax clarku edu hhenderson from hhenderson vax clarku edu subject re game length was re braves update message id apr93 vax clarku edu sender news black clarku edu usenet news system organization clark university references apr20 wvnvms wvnet edu apr93 vax clarku edu mzimmersc5sllk ld9 netcom com mssc5t13o l5s netcom com franjion spot colorado edu date apr gmt lines mzimmers netcom com michael zimmers writes first longer game in no way suggests more baseball to watch unless you include watching the grass grow as baseball definitely do that why don like going to see games played on artificial turf the lengthier games are so because of batters stepping out of the box pitchers taking longer between pitches and excessive trips to the mound by managers and pitching coaches and while it true that the gaps between plays can be interesting this is only true when they don become extra long well your idea of interesting differs from mine think batting practice is interesting for example and make special effort to get to the game very early in order to see it think the delaying tactics of batters pitchers catchers and managers are interesting because they re attempts to gain advantage through control of the flow and timing of the game of course the umpires can and should intervene when these tactics get out of hand as ryan robbins has pointed out there are rules that cover this one of the more fascinating things about baseball think is its open endedness with regard to time you never know if the game is going to zip right by and be over in less than two hours or if it going to go on until four in the morning likewise some games are action packed and some games are slow and lazy that fine by me those folks who want constant action should watch the games on tv so they can channel surf and cater to their short attention spans heather hhenderson vax clarku edu newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net noc near net black clarku edu vax clarku edu hhenderson from hhenderson vax clarku edu subject re bob vesterman plan to generate fan interest message id apr93 vax clarku edu sender news black clarku edu usenet news system organization clark university references rvesterm vma cc nd edu date apr gmt lines rvesterm vma cc nd edu writes let face it sex and violence are the only things that sell in america here how we can implement them in the game bob sex is already all over baseball do you think those uniforms can get any tighter todd hundley could be suppose he seems to favor the carlton fisk baggy pants style very unfortunate todd word to the wise if ya got it flaunt it heather hhenderson vax clarku edu newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu swrinde ringer lonestar utsa edu jguastel from jguastel lonestar utsa edu joseph guastella subject yanks royals box score message id apr21 ringer cs utsa edu sender news ringer cs utsa edu nntp posting host lonestar utsa edu organization university of texas at san antonio distribution usa date wed apr gmt lines need the box score from the april game believe the score was to if anyone can provide it for me would appreciate it joseph guastella jr long distance mkt rep dewitt san pedro suite san antonio tx san antonio tx jguastel lonestar utsa edu ext xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec sport baseball rec sport baseball fantasy path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net europa eng gtefsd com fs7 ece cmu edu news sei cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu andrew cmu edu pg23 from patrick pearse gallagher pg23 andrew cmu edu newsgroups rec sport baseball rec sport baseball fantasy subject re ray lankford question date wed apr organization freshman mathematics carnegie mellon pittsburgh pa lines message id fpao2o00iv10 ssgw andrew cmu edu references apr20 mnemosyne cs du edu nntp posting host po3 andrew cmu edu in reply to apr20 mnemosyne cs du edu does anybody know what is going on with lankford know he was out for few games with slight injury but since he has beenback and before the injury for that matter he has been really struggling at the plate and on the basepaths whereis the ray lankford we saw last year beg to differ he had couple hit games after he came back he did get caught stealing though he also missed sunday game did he play tonight if not worried he on my team too patrick newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu cclaydon magnus acs ohio state edu from robert claydon cclaydon magnus acs ohio state edu subject cub fever message id aa23556 bottom magnus acs ohio state edu sender daemon magnus acs ohio state edu organization the ohio state university date wed apr gmt mailer elm version pl11 lines kingoz camelot bradley edu orin roth writes cub fever is hitting me again beginning to think they have chance this year what the heck am thinking sorry just moment of incompetence ll be ok really orin bradley you sure this maybe chronic syndrome if it persists we may have to banish you to the cub crazy sanatarium in north chicago rob path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse flop engr orst edu gaia ucs orst edu leela csos orst edu atlantis csos orst edu yousten from yousten atlantis csos orst edu ken yousten newsgroups rec sport baseball subject pecota braves message id r2jj9 jus leela csos orst edu date apr gmt article leela r2jj9 jus distribution na organization cs dept oregon state university corvallis oregon lines nntp posting host atlantis csos orst edu could someone out there send me pecota stats for the last few years or something to give me some sort of feel for what kind of player he is my mind has no handle on him at all it bothers me pecota of the braves that is pretty meaningful that can even come up with his first name think ken yousten if at first you don succeed try again blacksburg va then quit no use being damn fool about it yousten atlantis csos orst edu fields path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu hobbes physics uiowa edu news iastate edu iscsvax uni edu reed5575 from reed5575 iscsvax uni edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re best first basemen message id apr20 iscsvax uni edu date apr references apr20 tesla njit edu organization university of northern iowa lines in article apr20 tesla njit edu drm6640 tesla njit edu writes don mattingly is the best first baseman in the history of baseball always has been always will be not what kind of happy grass you are smoking maybe you should share some with me first of all lou gehrig is the greatest first baseman ever jimmie foxx is clearly the next best first baseman ever he could be the greatest first baseman of the yankees in the modern era to put him in this best in the history of baseball is quite humorous very silly and totally off the line tony newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net agate headwall stanford edu nntp stanford edu punjabi from punjabi leland stanford edu sanjeev punjabi subject re why is barry bonds not batting th message id apr21 leland stanford edu sender news leland stanford edu mr news organization dsg stanford university ca usa references apr21 leland stanford edu r2mek hlq menudo uh edu date wed apr gmt lines in article r2mek hlq menudo uh edu st1ge elroy uh edu writes in article apr21 leland stanford edu punjabi leland stanford edu sanjeev punjabi writes as the heading indicates it is impossible for me to fathom why barry is not batting th for the giants behind will clark barry is such an awesome and consistent hitter definitely the best in the national league imho to have williams streaky hitter and not really clutch hitter batting th ahead of bonds is simply an injustice to the giants and fans of the giants simple reasons batting williams ahead of bonds will create left clark right williams left bonds situation in the middle of the batting order this makes it tougher for opposing manager to change pitchers having bonds batting behind williams means that matt will get more good pitches to hit this is important since he struggles so much with breaking balls opposing pitchers don want to walk williams to get to bonds both your reasons are not good ones joe morgan thinks that bonds clark williams should be the hitters while he believes that clark bonds williams is fine he definitely is of the opinion that bonds should hit ahead of williams am inclined to agree with him your first reason is not valid because bonds can hit both lefties and righties very well he hits lefties or righties better than any other giant williams is still getting breaking balls although not as much as last season but the bottom line is bonds is far more disciplined and more productive hitter than williams and prefer to take my chances with bonds driving in the or hitters who are expected to have high obps than with williams williams would get more fastballs with bonds on first and second base open because of the threat of bonds stealing newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net agate headwall stanford edu nntp stanford edu punjabi from punjabi leland stanford edu sanjeev punjabi subject re why is barry bonds not batting th message id apr21 leland stanford edu sender news leland stanford edu mr news organization dsg stanford university ca usa references apr21 leland stanford edu r2mek hlq menudo uh edu apr21 leland stanford edu date wed apr gmt lines in article apr21 leland stanford edu bohnert leland stanford edu matthew bohnert writes consistent hitter definitely the best in the national league imho to have williams streaky hitter and not really clutch hitter batting th ahead of bonds is simply an injustice to the giants and fans of the giants having bonds batting behind williams means that matt will get more good pitches to hit this is important since he struggles so much with breaking balls opposing pitchers don want to walk williams to get to bonds you re definitely correct in that williams absolutely has to be sandwiched in between clark and bonds he must and mean must get fastballs to hit otherwise he becomes little more than sixto lezcano in disguise what would suggest is perhaps batting bonds williams and clark the reason being that feel bonds potential basestealing abilities are wasted when he stuck behind two slow runners think the chance of getting extra stolen bases with bonds in the spot would more than offset any drop in in run production by having clark in the spot matt williams does not like hitting cleanup secondly bonds and clark in that order are lot more productive with runners in scoring position than matt am streaky free swinger williams sanjeev newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu sol ctr columbia edu eff world tac from tac world std com tackey chan subject re ugliest swing message id c5thz3 lr4 world std com organization the world public access unix brookline ma references lsokpminni4u appserv eng sun com qtqvjinni6a hp col col hp com date wed apr gmt lines ugliest swing am not sure think the ugliset stance is jolio franco of the ranger wonder how that bat comes around in time to hit the ball it looks bad but hey it get the job done tac path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu ub newserve sarah cscnews pb6755 from pb6755 csc albany edu brown philip newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re jewish ballplayers message id pb6755 apr20233718 thor albany edu date apr gmt references apr19 informix com sender news sarah albany edu news administrator organization state university of new york at albany lines in reply to barrym informix com message of apr gmt your list of jewish ballplayers includes levi samuel meyerle son of jacob and margaret meyerle although that sounds like jewish name meyerle surviving relatives say he wasn jewish according to nineteenth century stars published by sabr in incidentally long levi he was foot batted in the first season of the national association the first pro league needless to say he hasn been topped yet of course the na is not considered major league by officialdom over five seasons meyerle hit in the na he also played for the first three seasons of the nl hitting phil brown aka pb6755 csc albany edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu pitt edu gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu wupost cs uiuc edu pegasus cs uiuc edu steph from steph pegasus cs uiuc edu dale stephenson newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re and america team is but why message id steph pegasus cs uiuc edu date apr gmt references kingoz camelot apr20 bsu ucs sender news cs uiuc edu organization university of illinois dept of comp sci urbana il lines in apr20 bsu ucs cgbabbitt leo bsuvc bsu edu writes you are absolutely correct braves fans are nothing but bunch of bandwagoners correct me if am wrong but or years ago you couldnt give away ticket to see the braves play would bet my next paycheck that of the so called braves fans living outside of georgia at the present time can not name more than players from their season on the other hand ask any cubs fan living anywhere in the united states to name players from any given year and of them probably could you could be right then again you could be wrong this claim is completely unverifiable and untestable wager most of the braves fans on the net could name more than players from their season you could give away tickets to braves games however my dad and were able to get great seats from scalper for face value which isn exactly the sign of hot ticket granted the fact that team wins brings people to the ball park but that does not mean they diserve the title america team the only reason they are considered america team is because of ted turner and his little tv station which broadcasts across the nation this is precisely why they were considered america team even especially when they were bad you could see most of the braves games on cable you could do that for the cubs as well but the braves had better camerawork better announcers what would you rather listen to harry discuss the game or skip and pete discuss motoball and teams that weren too much worse because of tbs the braves had lot of fans outside of georgia at home in kentucky even though we were much closer to cincinnati there was as many braves fans as reds fans even in you could actually watch the braves play you had to go to cincinnati to watch the reds can go anywhere in america and watch the braves ll consider toronto america team before the braves why guess that braves fans are more widely distributed than toronto fans dale stephenson steph cs uiuc edu baseball fanatic it is considered good to look wise especially when not overburdened with information golden kimball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu pitt edu gatech howland reston ans net wupost cs uiuc edu pegasus cs uiuc edu steph from steph pegasus cs uiuc edu dale stephenson newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re neon deon sanders braves giants message id steph pegasus cs uiuc edu date apr gmt references qu6ivinneg3 mephisto gatech edu apr19 leland stanford edu apr20 bnlux1 bnl gov r28f6 zippy telcom arizona edu sender news cs uiuc edu organization university of illinois dept of comp sci urbana il lines in r28f6 zippy telcom arizona edu r4938585 joplin biosci arizona edu doug roberts writes does anyone else out there not like deon think he all hype his season last year was good but not convinced that he can do it again it reminds me sorry of the year when tim wallach hit or so homers and had rbi it never even came close to happening again of course maybe just prefer guys who go about their business and don play it up for the attention just my ho tim wallach can be explained with the rabbitball deion can be explained as learning how to play the game not betting that deion will be able to play as well as last year but think the odds of deion playing as well or better than he did last year are better than the odds of otis nixon doing the same thing when you factor in defense otis was more valuable last year but not convinced he ll be more valuable this year and especially next year dale stephenson steph cs uiuc edu baseball fanatic it is considered good to look wise especially when not overburdened with information golden kimball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net bigboote wpi edu rajeesh wpi edu choman from choman rajeesh wpi edu charles stanley homan newsgroups rec sport baseball subject rbi question date apr gmt organization worcester polytechnic institute lines message id r2lsi m4h bigboote wpi edu nntp posting host rajeesh wpi edu is there any judgement call on the part of the scorer for sac fly rbi this is the situation that brought the question up the red sox were up in the bottom of the th by score of the mariners had the bases loaded with out the batter hits fly to center which the fielder catches the runner at third tags and scores without throw now without judgement call and don think there is one this is an rbi for the batter it seems to me that better name for this would be defensive indifference since it doesn really matter whether the guy at third scores at that point know can think of several if the mariners stole third and second which opening the base would allow and then the batter hit grounder which the third baseman gets deep in the hole between himself and third he wouldn have play at home third or second for the out and maybe he therefore can make the throw to first to get the last out etc scenarios too but does it really matter if this guy scores this way when you re down by if the tying run is going to score so is the guy on third the point is that the batter imo shouldn get credit an rbi for utterly failing to do his job which at this point is to get hit or walk not trade an out for one run what do you guys think regards burke charles homan choman wpi wpi edu go red sox go rocket path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu pitt edu gatech howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu asuvax ncar noao arizona arizona edu violet ccit arizona edu f67709907 from f67709907 violet ccit arizona edu greg franklin newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re opinions on eli denny show message id apr21 violet ccit arizona edu date apr gmt references c5sulh hpu cs dal ca distribution na local organization university of arizona lines nntp posting host violet nntp posting user f67709907 so that what happened to denny mclain sad for those of you who are interested another baseball pariah pete rose has weekday radio show on the sports and entertainment national radio network think it pm locally pm on the east coast and actually his on air monologues about the baseball business sounds lot more reasonable and articulate than what hear from the ray knights of the world greg mockingbird franklin interracial mixing encompasses lot lot more f67709907 ccit arizona edu than mingling between g7 races robohen stodgy things argument by an inept speaker ignorant sermonizing drinking bout without hors oeuvres dried up sword sheath held together by threads questioning by boy favorite about one other affairs inumakura the dog pillow path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu menudo uh edu elroy uh edu st1ge from st1ge elroy uh edu edward hui newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re why is barry bonds not batting th date apr gmt organization university of houston lines message id r2mek hlq menudo uh edu references apr21 leland stanford edu reply to st1ge elroy uh edu nntp posting host elroy uh edu in article apr21 leland stanford edu punjabi leland stanford edu sanjeev punjabi writes as the heading indicates it is impossible for me to fathom why barry is not batting th for the giants behind will clark barry is such an awesome and consistent hitter definitely the best in the national league imho to have williams streaky hitter and not really clutch hitter batting th ahead of bonds is simply an injustice to the giants and fans of the giants simple reasons batting williams ahead of bonds will create left clark right williams left bonds situation in the middle of the batting order this makes it tougher for opposing manager to change pitchers having bonds batting behind williams means that matt will get more good pitches to hit this is important since he struggles so much with breaking balls opposing pitchers don want to walk williams to get to bonds edward hui path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu pitt edu gatech purdue mentor cc purdue edu noose ecn purdue edu chainsaw ecn purdue edu ts from ts chainsaw ecn purdue edu thomas ruschak newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re jack morris message id c5tp7x n4 noose ecn purdue edu date apr gmt references apr19 ramsey cs laurentian ca qvag7innsvo lynx unm edu apr20 ramsey cs laurentian ca sender news noose ecn purdue edu usenet news organization purdue university engineering computer network lines all of roger maynard drivel deleted cordially as always maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca so many morons rm and so little time can we just stick this guy in the faq and stop responding to him guys the last several flame wars with him have been pretty much identical could someone just collect all the articles from this one and simply re post the entire block whenever he tries to start one it be simpler roger apparently is one of those embarassing specimens who enjoys flames why give him what he wants oh roger you re dull very dull you should get new act tom path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net bogus sura net darwin sura net jhunix hcf jhu edu jhuvms hcf jhu edu doctor8 from doctor8 jhuvms hcf jhu edu jason abner miller newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re and america team is but why date apr est organization the johns hopkins university hcf lines distribution na message id apr199301494510 jhuvms hcf jhu edu references kingoz camelot apr20 bsu ucs nntp posting host jhuvms hcf jhu edu news software vax vms vnews in article apr20 bsu ucs cgbabbitt leo bsuvc bsu edu writes you are absolutely correct braves fans are nothing but bunch of bandwagoners correct me if am wrong but or years ago you couldnt give away ticket to see the braves play would bet my next paycheck that of the so called braves fans living outside of georgia at the present time can not name more than players from their season john smoltz tom glavine german jiminez dale murphy bruce sutter pete smith rick mahler jim acker jim break on through morrison ron gant andres thomas gerald perry ozzie the aeneid virgil lonnie smith jerry royster how doing so far note am not braves fun on the other hand ask any cubs fan living anywhere in the united states to name players from any given year and of them probably could on the other hand ii like the braves much more than the cubs and all can name is ron santo ernie banks and don kessinger from my favorite cubbie season granted the fact that team wins brings people to the ball park but that does not mean they diserve the title america team the only reason they are considered america team is because of ted turner and his little tv station which broadcasts across the nation right ve watched enough braves games to know great deal of their players like many of their players the only cubs games get to see while living in new york are those against the mets and they put me to sleep because face it watching guys like rick sutcliffe and luis salazar doesn put me at the edge of my chair ll consider toronto america team before the braves actually notice lot of anti toronto sentiment here in the states partly because of some of that post series arrogance thanks in part to upside down flag dork posts partly because roberto alomar is about as exciting as swiss cheese and partly because living in baltimore during the winters ve become so fond of fans especially those who call in to rex barney radio show that have to side against their most hated rivals go reds sorry but mets is spelled with an and jason miller some doctor guy frank banananna win path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu ub newserve sarah cscnews pb6755 from pb6755 csc albany edu brown philip newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re mvp revisited message id pb6755 apr21000154 thor albany edu date apr gmt references r141n a32 agate berkeley edu blue cis pitt edu sender news sarah albany edu news administrator organization state university of new york at albany lines in reply to dtate pitt edu message of apr gmt total baseball which also tries to evaluate player total offensive and defensive contributions gives barry bonds total player rating of for only one other player since ruth attained that mark cal ripken for his season rounding out the top five offensive players in the nl last season sheffield sandberg van slyke and larkin the top offensive players in the al in were martinez ventura anderson henderson and thomas in short total baseball says bonds enjoyed one of the best seasons ever in the game history better than any year had by mantle mays williams etc if you disagree don flame me flame the writers of total baseball also martinez and ventura are neck and neck so given the shortcomings of any statistical analysis which one had the better year can be considered toss up thus total baseball supports your choices of bonds and ventura as the mvps of phil brown aka pb6755 csc albany edu newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net bogus sura net darwin sura net uvaarpa cabell vcu edu csc2imd from csc2imd cabell vcu edu ian derby subject phils winning the hard way message id apr21 cabell vcu edu summary phils keywords phils organization virginia commonwealth university date wed apr gmt expires fri apr gmt lines the phillies have won two games back to back in extra innings last night game was hard fought the game in chicago should have been blow out all in all these two games show different phillies team in past seasons they tended to always be on the short end of run games don know how many times saw them losing by only run if they were able to win most of those they might have been more of contending team they are so far in extra innings and of course they are newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net spool mu edu caen batcomputer cornell tedward from tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer subject re jack morris message id apr20 cs cornell edu organization cornell univ cs dept ithaca ny references apr19 ramsey cs laurentian ca sdcc12 ucsd edu apr20 ramsey cs laurentian ca date tue apr gmt lines in article apr20 ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes to say that one player is better than another is to be able to say ab solutely that player team would have played better with player in their lineup sheer speculation impossible to ascertain there are very few disciplines where certainty is necessary to state something as fact baseball is not one of them therefore can say that know clemens was better than morris last year and larkin was better than griffin no can ascertain this can prove it but not required to do so and since you obviously feel that such threads are meaningless why don you simply stay out of them valentine no not going to be cordial roger maynard is complete and total dickhead send me mail if you insist on details path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu pitt edu gatech howland reston ans net noc near net saturn caps maine edu maine maine edu io20456 from io20456 maine maine edu ryan robbins newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re infield fly rule message id io20456 maine maine edu date apr gmt references c5fegu qb hq ileaf com apr15 scott skidmore edu io20456 maine maine edu apr20 holos0 uucp organization university of maine system lines you can call time when there play in progress ryan robbins penobscot hall university of maine io20456 maine maine edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu pitt edu gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu linac att princeton phoenix princeton edu niepornt from niepornt phoenix princeton edu david marc nieporent newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re white and black racism was about the phillies message id apr20 princeton edu date apr gmt references p00421 psilink com sender news princeton edu usenet news system organization princeton university lines originator news nimaster nntp posting host phoenix princeton edu in article p00421 psilink com dennis parslow p00421 psilink com writes from dan campbell dan jhunix hcf jhu edu in article apr11 ulkyvx louisville edu pjtier01 ulkyvx louisville edu writes in article apr pilot njin net gajarsky pilot njin net bob gajarsky hobokenite writes here the hard working black players none here the lazy white players mcreynolds now that time has passed what would the posts be like if rickey were driving his boat drunk killing himself and one of his teammates what would people say if bonds drunk out of his skull smashed his car into tree disabling himself say willie mcgee for the season can tell you they would be considered spoiled lazy say it niggers this awfully presumptious of you to assume you can read our minds and predict the future what makes you so sure would be thinking these things what makes you think that there not lot of people out there don think crews is god anyone who is dead because of mistake deserves sympathy be it crews olin bonds mcgee rickey or you or me why does it bother you so much that two dead white men are getting little sympathy would it make you feel better if we only mourned dead black baseball players to beat dead horse seem to remember fair amount of sympathy for some black fringe player named roberto clemente and for roy campanella and for thurman munson and for just about anyone else who we may not even have liked as players but mourned for dying too young wiggins alan but that besides the point sure people would feel slightly sympathetic for rickey if he were killed but they would also be criticizing him lot more for his actions example how about jose canseco he gets couple of speeding tickets and all of the sudden his attitude is awful what the hell do speeding tickets have to do with clubhouse influence anyway so why do sportswriters talk about it all the time or brian hunter and keith mitchell both of whom had dwi problems towards the end of last year two years ago it was cited as sign of their immaturity etc meanwhile dykstra almost killed both himself and daulton and didn read any sportswriter complaining about that they may have talked about how bad it was for the phillies but never read anywhere criticism of dykstra character or daulton intelligence for that matter based on this incident david nieporent only one thing wrong with theory niepornt phoenix is stupid is stupidest theory ever heard princeton edu baltimore orioles who the dangerous cult the bds or the batf path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu pitt edu gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu linac att princeton crux roger from roger crux princeton edu roger lustig newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re bonilla message id apr21 princeton edu date apr gmt references news duke edu sender news princeton edu usenet news system reply to roger astro princeton edu roger lustig organization princeton university lines originator news nimaster nntp posting host crux princeton edu in article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes in article apr19 princeton edu roger crux princeton edu roger lustig writes in article steph pegasus cs uiuc edu steph pegasus cs uiuc edu dale stephenson writes in apr18 princeton edu roger crux princeton edu roger lustig writes if black players can survive being mediocre or worse how can mcrae and chamberlain be explained nobody saying it hard and fast rule my point is that white players are likely to stick around longer if they re mediocre went through tb iii and made list of year of and who were negative in both adjusted batting runs and total player rating tpr has some problems but it generally not too far off for career imho all players who played most of their career after were considered here are through haven done the rest yet armas bailor balboni bannister beauchamp beniquez bergman berry biittner blair bochte bonnell bosley bradford brown buckner cabell castillo cater cimoli cline clines coles collins davalillo dernier dilone gaston geiger geronimo gosger heep iorg few black players there lot of white and hispanic hmmm one question how do you differentiate hispanic and black after all some people fall into both categories rafael ramiriez comes to mind and he fit into this grouping also oops he not an of although he is light hitting utility player sorry about that but miguel dilone would qualify if remember correctly when say black mean us born black people for the purposes of this discussion hispanic players were in baseball before and one team in the signed lots of hispanics because they went over better with the local audience than blacks did and why would more hispanics stick around than blacks don know but remember this is the country that had special racial laws for one group and one group only blacks our national history includes huge long term global tensions regarding the black minority the hispanic minority while often discriminated against has never been the object of national obsession it might also be worth your while to subdivide the data into careers starting at year intervals would think that your prediction would be most true for careers starting in the and least true for careers starting in the of course you also have to compare total ml racial percentages for the era in question absolutely as said before expect that this effect is disappearing but it certainly did exist and all out talk of twg and all that is not without some small reason of the opinion that your point is less valid today than it was years ago but would be curious to see the data well there the list go for it ll cull some more names as go expect you re right btw roger newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet haven umd edu purdue mentor cc purdue edu noose ecn purdue edu chainsaw ecn purdue edu ts from ts chainsaw ecn purdue edu thomas ruschak subject re jack morris message id c5tqam t9 noose ecn purdue edu sender news noose ecn purdue edu usenet news organization purdue university engineering computer network references apr20 ramsey cs laurentian ca apr20 cs cornell edu apr20 ramsey cs laurentian ca date wed apr gmt lines in article apr20 ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes in apr20 cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes on the contrary it statistically impaired opinionated little assholes like yourself who while springing up all over the continent like some dirty virus are diligently working at destroying the glory of sport cordially as always maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca so many morons rm and so little time heheheheh sorry roger wronged you you re not boring all the time this one is classic cordially as always hehehehehhe are you jerk do people hate you are you no fun at parties well come to the roger maynard school of cordiality we can teach you to be cordial with the best of them use such time honored cordiality techniques as calling people assholes comparing them to viruses for advanced students comparing them to dirty viruses what is dirty virus and how can you tell it from clean one we know and here at the roger maynard school of cordiality we can teach you to know too heheheh thanks roger this made my evening tom newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen usenet cis ufl edu usenet ufl edu gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu swrinde sgiblab sgigate odin kubey from kubey sgi com ken kubey subject re why is barry bonds not batting th message id c5ujct qn odin corp sgi com sender news odin corp sgi com net news nntp posting host summit wpd sgi com organization silicon graphics inc mountain view ca references apr21 leland stanford edu r2mek hlq menudo uh edu apr21 leland stanford edu date wed apr gmt lines like the clark williams bonds order pitchers can only walk clark with outs unlike last year williams is getting better pitches to hit with bonds looming in the on deck circle since matt has terrible batting eye this helps the giants lot when bonds gets on base all by himself he can try to steal nd and then be driven in with single by thompson manwaring or clayton if you bat bonds before the other sluggers then you don want him to run because caught stealing could take you out of big inning also bonds is less in need of protection behind him because he is such good base stealer walk is potential double the only draw back is when clark and williams are clogging up the bases infront of bonds and think that problem the giants will be glad to see especially if robby thompson gets hot ken kubey kubey wpd sgi com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu pitt edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com think com rpi scott skidmore edu jrogoff from jrogoff scott skidmore edu jay rogoff newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re best homeruns message id apr19 scott skidmore edu date apr gmt references apr18 virginia edu distribution rec organization skidmore college saratoga springs ny lines on two separate occasions saw dick allen back when he was richie homer at shea off the middle of the black centerfield hitter background screen think both shots would have traveled feet jay newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet mnemosyne cs du edu nyx gspira from gspira nyx cs du edu greg spira subject re usa mcweekly stats message id apr20 mnemosyne cs du edu sender usenet mnemosyne cs du edu netnews admin account organization university of denver dept of math comp sci references franjion spot colorado edu rvesterm vma cc nd edu date tue apr gmt lines rvesterm vma cc nd edu writes in article franjion spot colorado edu franjion spot colorado edu john franjione says also have the impression from reading this group and bill james that elias is bunch of money grubbing jerks whose mission is to charge as much as they can for baseball statistical info and bill james is not yeah sure do you own the bill james players rating book uh bill james doesn sell statistics he sells books with statistics but he is not in the business of providing stats like elias stats howe baseball workshop etc are greg newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet mnemosyne cs du edu nyx gspira from gspira nyx cs du edu greg spira subject re jack morris message id apr20 mnemosyne cs du edu sender usenet mnemosyne cs du edu netnews admin account organization university of denver dept of math comp sci references apr19 news columbia edu apr19 leland stanford edu date tue apr gmt lines cmeyer bloch stanford edu craig meyer writes michael chen mike cunixf cc columbia edu wrote in any case think viola would have made better signing why viola is younger and is left handed how many left handed starters does toronto have well agree that viola is better signing however why does everyone say that you want lefthanded starters understand lefthanded spot relievers even though they usually face more righthanded batters than lefthanded batters just don understand why people insist on lefthanded starters unless there is park effect yankee stadium the answer is they re stupid seriously think you re right on the money ve never understood the preoccupation with making sure rotation has left handed starters the only time it makes sense to me is when you have an unbalanced schedule and your main rival is loaded with lefthanded hitters other than that think you re completely right greg path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu pitt edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net bogus sura net udel princeton crux roger from roger crux princeton edu roger lustig newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re bonilla message id apr20 princeton edu date apr gmt references apr18 princeton edu news duke edu mjones fenway sender news princeton edu usenet news system reply to roger astro princeton edu roger lustig organization princeton university lines originator news nimaster nntp posting host crux princeton edu in article mjones fenway mjones donald aix kingston ibm com writes fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes all of these divisions based on race religion etc make me sick as they should isn it nice that mlb is finally waking up to their existence isn it shame that hiring practices on and off the field have been discriminatory for so long quick name light hitting black outfielder or who lasted years in the bigs bet you can name two dozen white ones otis nixon darnell coles henry cotto manny mota dominican not all that light hitting lifetime or so in when he did most of his playing professional pinch hitter after that yes that also gives you jerry hairston billy hatcher beginning th year now herm winningham good one lonnie smith not light hitting but horror in the field not the same thing lots of people are bad ofs gary redus not all that light either ops dion james not year daryl boston year this year vince coleman yeah he finally started to have decent obp not year cecil espy not year willie wilson yup gary pettis ok milt thompson year this year gary varsho six year this year ok admit to taking quick browse through the major league handbook but only after the first or oh and there the all time light hitting black outfielder lou brock look it up and curt flood cesar geronimo brock coleman and wilson were hot dog basestealers also lonnie smith that seems to be special class cfs like pettis and wilson also get more of break especially if they actually do field well and brock wasn all that bad hitter either not until the end there when he spoiled his ifetime ba and again suspect thatthe problem is lessening over time but if you look at the history of the last three decades there seems to be clear race based pattern by which utility players and platoon players and lesser talents stayed in the ml far longer if they were white cesar cedeno light hitting hr lifetime ops mainly with houston also latin btw note these guys may not have reached years yet but they ve got to be close likewise for my list oh and prediction milt cuyler come back in and we ll party talk roger newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu caen msuinfo uchinews kimbark thf2 from thf2 kimbark uchicago edu ted frank subject re bonilla message id apr20 midway uchicago edu sender news uchinews uchicago edu news system reply to thf2 midway uchicago edu organization university of chicago references apr18 princeton edu news duke edu mjones fenway date tue apr gmt lines in article mjones fenway mjones donald aix kingston ibm com writes fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes quick name light hitting black outfielder or who lasted years in the bigs bet you can name two dozen white ones otis nixon stole bases ok he still light hitting but baseball managers don think so they think he like omar moreno before him is perfect leadoff man awesome defense darnell coles he still around because of his when he hit hr henry cotto hasn played years in the bigs wasn full time major leaguer until manny mota consistent hitter billy hatcher we ll see if he still around in for his tenth year herm winningham same goes for herm lonnie smith not light hitting but horror in the field doesn count then gary redus redus is hardly light hitting plus he stole bases close to ops career against lhp dion james we ll see if he still around in to qualify daryl boston slugged to for three straight years in one of the worst hitters parks in the nl he going to be one of colorado better players this year plus to make ten you have to count all the time he spent in denver and buffalo and hawaii while with the white sox vince coleman yeah he finally started to have decent obp coleman assuming he makes it to was never perceived as being weak offensively though of course he was led nl in sb his first six years in the majors cecil espy we ll see if he still around in willie wilson wilson has always been overrated but hit five times in six year stretch and led the league in triples five times but we can count him if he still playing in though it ll be because he otis nixon deluxe with slightly worse defense gary pettis okay if he in the league this year he can count though he also in the majors because of otis nixon syndrome milt thompson he not spectacular but he neither light hitting nor ten year man gary varsho halfway there and unlikely to make it of the way there ok admit to taking quick browse through the major league handbook but only after the first or oh and there the all time light hitting black outfielder lou brock look it up and curt flood cesar geronimo cesar cedeno brock suffered from otis nixon disease but he wasn perceived as light hitting neither was curt flood cesar cedeno was not light hitting note these guys may not have reached years yet but they ve got to be close likewise for my list oh and prediction milt cuyler he ll have to steal lot more bases ted frank thf2 kimbark uchicago edu sorry the card says moops the of law school standard disclaimers newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet mnemosyne cs du edu nyx gspira from gspira nyx cs du edu greg spira subject re jack morris message id apr20 mnemosyne cs du edu sender usenet mnemosyne cs du edu netnews admin account organization university of denver dept of math comp sci references mindlink bc ca apr18 mnemosyne cs du edu apr18 cs cornell edu apr19 newshub ariel yorku ca apr19 ramsey cs laurentian ca apr19 bcars6a8 bnr ca date tue apr gmt lines bwalker bnr ca barry walker writes in article apr19 ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes in apr19 newshub ariel yorku ca cs902043 ariel yorku ca shawn luddington writes hey valentine don see boston with any world series rings on their fingers damn morris now has three and probably the hall of fame in his future therefore would have to say toronto easily made the best signing and don tell me boston will win this year they won even be in the top in the division more like th in spite of what all the stat heads say jack morris played large role in the jays winning the world series last year don care if his era was he played leadership role and did win games his era may have been high but he did pitch many outstanding ball games and he pitched many not so outstanding ballgames too jack essentially pitched lot of ball last year this certainly isn irrelevant and iif you replace morris with replacement level quality the blue jays might not win re leadership don see it if the leadership effect is there for starting pitcher you would expect to see its primary effect on the pitching staff you would expect to see the rest of the staff improve instead the rest of the staff declined you can make reasonable argument for winfield providing leadership the offense picked up considerably from its effectiveness the previous year not saying buy that but at least that argument makes internal sense greg barry walker bnr ottawa canada my opinions newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net bogus sura net udel news udel edu bach udel edu nitro from nitro bach udel edu paul joseph sparks subject re jack morris message id c5rktz i5j news udel edu sender usenet news udel edu nntp posting host bach udel edu organization university of delaware references apr19 ramsey cs laurentian ca sdcc12 ucsd edu apr20 ramsey cs laurentian ca date tue apr gmt lines my father is huge tiger fan and am loyal blue jay fan who endured the collapse of the heartbreak of don have the stat book so let throw them out first of all morris in his heyday vs clemens present how many cy youngs does morris have how many cy youngs does clemens have ballparks and such fenway average pitchers park detroit hugh hitters paradise morris is great team pitcher sort of in the doug drabek mold if morris team needs well pitched game as in minn in morris snaps the ball and throw for ks otherwise he just tries to get people out as for clemens in the elias stat book of believe that clemens has the best lifetime record for his team as compared to when he doesn pitch how bad would the red sox have been last year without him can you say phillies believe clemens is the better pitcher because of more power and hsi great tenacity morris is among the guttiest pitchers ve ever seen but clemens is in class with seaver carlton etc paul sparks path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu caen destroyer ccs itd umich edu sweda from sweda css itd umich edu sean sweda newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re royals final run total date apr gmt organization university of michigan itd consulting and support lines message id qvsiminnjqf stimpy css itd umich edu references qoqh6inn6mt lynx unm edu nntp posting host stimpy css itd umich edu newsreader tin version pl8 mitchell bose kbos carina unm edu wrote the toronto blue jays scored oh fine we ll ignore that one coming from and all that ll teach me not to qualify my statements in the oakland scored thundering runs bleah ok something to shoot for the royals will score runs or less this season although they just decided to get mcrae out of the leadoff spot of course valentine will throw this one back in my face when the royals even manage to outscore another al team sean sean sweda sweda css itd umich edu css itd consultant gammons idiotic quote of the week gm manager motor city marauders there no better home run park in internet baseball league baseball than tiger stadium path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu linac att bu edu csa icop from icop csa bu edu antonio pera newsgroups rec sport baseball subject baseball in spanish message id bu edu date apr gmt sender news bu edu organization computer science department boston university boston ma usa lines originator icop csa recently heard the red sox on wrol spanish speaking radio station thought it was so unreal the red sox in spanish anyway want to find out how widespread this is being ny native know the scmets are on in spanish but not the yankmes wuold think that la sd texas and fla are on in spanish are there any spanish speaking networks or is this local newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet mnemosyne cs du edu nyx gspira from gspira nyx cs du edu greg spira subject re jack morris message id apr20 mnemosyne cs du edu sender usenet mnemosyne cs du edu netnews admin account organization university of denver dept of math comp sci references apr18 mnemosyne cs du edu apr18 cs cornell edu apr19 newshub ariel yorku ca apr19 cs cornell edu apr19 ramsey cs laurentian ca sdcc12 ucsd edu apr20 ramsey cs laurentian ca date tue apr gmt lines maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes we have no way of knowing because we cannot separate morris contribu tion from the rest of the team there is only one way of determin ing best in baseball and that is by looking at the scoreboard at the end of the game each game determines which team is the best that day at the end of the season the team that was the best the most often is the best in the division the playoffs determine the best of the best but the point is that the only decision making pro cess used to determine the best is the score of the game and it re lates to the teams not the individual players there is no method inherent in baseball of comparing individual performances and that is how it should be because after all baseball is team game and you know what there is no such method inherent in real life either so would assume you would endorse the notion that we cannot state with any level of objectivity that mother theresa has accomplished more good in this world than joseph stalin after all life on earth is team effort if you want to select group of statistics and claim that clemens has done better with those statistics as criteria then fine but you have to be able to prove that those statistics measure the individual contribution to winning the ws because that is the only measure of best that has any meaning in the context of base ball so until you can prove that clemens contributes to ws cham pionship more than morris your evaluation of clemens is totally sub jective and is mere opinion have yet to see that any of you can predict ws winner with any greater accuracy than jeanne dixon have you tried glasses find them quite useful after all there must be some reason you choose to ignore the mounds of evidence we present it too bad you feel it necessary to close your mind and eyes to knowledge you live poorer life as result of that choice heck wager that you could predict ws winner with greater accuracy than jeanne dixon and you know why because have full confidence that despite your protestations to the contrary you are quite capable of using the knowledge we can come up with through statistical methods to boost your knowledge level you don have to be rude have you tried calling kettle black for you to say that means that you have either missed the entire point of my argument or you yourself have committed fallacy ignoratio elenchi am not saying that morris is better than clemens because he has more rings although have tongue in cheek claimed that in the past am saying that it is impossible to isolate an individual performance from that of his team for the purpose of comparing that individual performance with another individual per formance in other words in your world you cannot objectively state that jack morris was more important to the blue jays than al leiter last year in your world that may indeed be true fortunately in the world the rest of us occupy it not hope you never serve on jury roger think the rest of the jury would have to kill you there no way can objectively judge the defendant to be innocent or guilty you see there are billion other people on this planet we have no way of knowing whether the defendant would have committed the crime if it wasn for all the other people on the planet we have no way of knowing how the defendant would have acted had he been on different planet because living on this planet is team effort and no individual committs crime totally isolated from his society he is part of that society that being case anything have to say on his culpability would be absolute subjectivity so refuse to vote greg newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet mnemosyne cs du edu nyx gspira from gspira nyx cs du edu greg spira subject re jack morris message id apr20 mnemosyne cs du edu sender usenet mnemosyne cs du edu netnews admin account organization university of denver dept of math comp sci references apr19 newshub ariel yorku ca apr19 csd newshost stanford edu apr19 ramsey cs laurentian ca qvag7innsvo lynx unm edu apr20 ramsey cs laurentian ca date tue apr gmt lines maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes in qvag7innsvo lynx unm edu kbos carina unm edu mitchell bose writes in article apr19 ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes again if you had lee on your team last year you would be wearing ring this year er no er yes if manny lee was on your team last year your team would have been the toronto blue jays my team is the albuquerque leftturns if manny lee were on my team would not be wearing ring nor would he if however were on manny lee team again if manny lee was on your team last year your team would not have been the albuquerque leftturns it would have been the toronto blue jays how is that possible he was on the albuquerque leftturns last year how could you possibly know what team he would be on if manny lee was on his team last year after all manny lee wasn on his team last year so it complete unfounded speculation to state that if he was on the same team as manny lee last year it would have been the team of the toronto blue jays since he and lee weren on the same team you cannot possibly objectively state what team they would have been on if they had both been on the same team greg newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu rphroy caen destroyer cs ubc ca uw beaver news washington edu spiff seattleu edu quick amc gw pilchuck parody dietz from dietz parody data io com kent dietz subject re let play the name game message id apr20 data io com sender news data io com the news organization data corporation references apr20 newshub ariel yorku ca date tue apr gmt lines in article apr20 newshub ariel yorku ca cs902043 ariel yorku ca shawn luddington writes how about changing team names post your choices minnesota lumberjacks thought of bunyons as in paul not sore feet or babes as in big blue ox seattle rainiers think this was considered by the new ownership harkening back to aaa glory days and placating at least one local brewer kent dietz twins in mariners sometime this century path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov nntp server caltech edu juliet caltech edu aaron from aaron juliet caltech edu packman aaron newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re wounded redbirds date apr pdt organization california institute of technology lines distribution world message id apr199316235950 juliet caltech edu references apr21 acad drake edu apr21 bme ri ccf org nntp posting host juliet caltech edu news software vax vms vnews in article apr21 bme ri ccf org tknuth bio ri ccf org writes in article acad drake edu sbp002 acad drake edu writes does anyone know the status of jeffries or arocha arocha broke his finger trying to field ground ball he was put on the dl after the game and may require surgery the injury is to his fielding hand which is good unfortunately he may have some ligament damage and may require surgery which would lay him up for while don know about jefferies apparently just strain of some sort he hasn been put on the dl so it probably just day to day aaron path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu ub newserve sarah cscnews pb6755 from pb6755 csc albany edu brown philip newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re bob dylan baseball abstract message id pb6755 apr21195548 thor albany edu date apr gmt references apr romulus rutgers edu sender news sarah albany edu news administrator distribution na organization state university of new york at albany lines in reply to moakler romulus rutgers edu message of apr gmt ve never heard of the bob dylan baseball abstract but am curious could someone clue me in phil brown aka pb6755 csc albany edu newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu csus edu netcom com mzimmers from mzimmers netcom com michael zimmers subject re why is barry bonds not batting th message id mzimmersc5v0cp h9 netcom com organization netcom online communications services login guest references franjion spot colorado edu mzimmersc5ulp0 sp netcom com franjion spot colorado edu date thu apr gmt lines in article franjion spot colorado edu franjion spot colorado edu john franjione writes as to whether it does him any good to have bonds behind him the net stat mavens will probably tell you there no reason that it should but if he thinks it will it might be self fulfilling prophecy don understand if it is williams lack of ability which you say above and agree with which causes him to swing at bad pitches how will thinking that bonds hitting behind him will help him to stop chasing bad pitches didn mean that it would necessarily help him improve at that specific deficiency meant that if having bonds bat behind him gives williams possibly unfounded confidence that might translate into more hitting productivity but you re right if williams biggest problem is more physical than mental that less likely to make difference michael zimmers voice softhelp suppliers to software developers data path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com caen nigel msen com yale edu yale not for mail from wuziyun suned cs yale edu you wanna know newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re jack morris date apr organization yale university computer science dept new haven ct lines sender wuziyun cs yale edu you wanna know distribution world message id r4ri0innchj rhino zoo cs yale edu references apr19 ramsey cs laurentian ca qvag7innsvo lynx unm edu apr20 ramsey cs laurentian ca c5tp7x n4 noose ecn purdue edu apr21 mnemosyne cs du edu nntp posting host rhino zoo cs yale edu since roger is canadian who probably knows nothing about baseball am gonna try to explain it to him in terms of hockey according to his logic can say that since bob errey is better than wayne gretzky hey errey contributed to cups while good old wayne has won nothing think the kings should trade gretzky for errey what do you think roger ziyun path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu husc news harvard edu zariski grabiner newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re hits stolen centerfield message id grabiner apr21124151 germain harvard edu from grabiner math harvard edu david grabiner date apr edt references steph pegasus cs uiuc edu organization etc organization nntp posting host germain harvard edu in reply to steph pegasus cs uiuc edu message of tue apr gmt lines in article steph pegasus cs uiuc edu dale stephenson writes nhs net hits stolen extra outs compared to average fielder neb net extra bases extra bases prevented compared to avg fielder national league name hs nhs neb dcon dops lankford martinez butler american league name hs nhs neb dcon dops wilson felix suspect that splits such as these are the result of positioning an outfielder who is fast and gets good jump would be expected to catch lot of balls preventing both singles and doubles and also cut off more uncatchable balls turinging doubles into singles however fielder who plays shallow will catch more short flies and fewer long flies this means that he will allow fewer singles but more doubles has anyone seen these players positioning do butler and felix play deep and lankford martinez and wilson shallow or is this park effect thought butler liked to play shallow david grabiner grabiner zariski harvard edu we are sorry but the number you have dialed is imaginary please rotate your phone degrees and try again disclaimer speak for no one and no one speaks for me newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net usc sdd hp com col hp com fc hp com doug from doug fc hp com doug steele subject re al stats and standings sender news fc hp com news daemon message id c5v294 z1 fc hp com date thu apr gmt references c5uzqm fo fc hp com nntp posting host hpfe4a fc hp com organization hewlett packard fort collins site newsreader tin version pl9 lines forgot to mention that the stats are for games through doug path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov ncar noao amethyst organpipe uug arizona edu helium krueger from krueger helium gas uug arizona edu theodore krueger newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re braves update message id apr21 organpipe uug arizona edu date apr gmt references news duke edu apr20 seq uncwil edu apr20 zeus calpoly edu sender news organpipe uug arizona edu distribution usa organization university of arizona tucson lines in article apr20 zeus calpoly edu jplee cymbal calpoly edu jason lee writes you simply cannot show up an umpire like ron gant did it is disrespectful of not only the home plate umpire but of the dignity of the game but of course it is expected that umpires will show up players don get me wrong understand the nature of the game but just believe that little ego ectomy for the umpires would make the game much better ted social nags and body bags make you dead what drag drag drag saigon kick body bags the lizard krueger gas uug arizona edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet enterpoop mit edu senator bedfellow mit edu athena mit edu cmk from cmk athena mit edu charles kozierok newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re bosox win again against seattle date apr gmt organization massachusetts institute of technology lines message id r401pinn58g senator bedfellow mit edu references jxu black clarku edu nntp posting host electric monk mit edu in article jxu black clarku edu jxu black clarku edu dark wing duck writes last night boston red sox win its games of games by beating seattle roger clemson pitch not so dominate he walked at least man in first inns but valetin and greenwell hit homeruns and red sox prevail clemens struggled with his control but was also the beneficiary of some pretty shoddy umpiring but to be fair most of the walks were early in the game and he adjusted he was also helped by dare say it some pretty good defense by the sox including rivera playing at second not his normal position actually clemens is pretty lucky that he got the win considering the sox almost gave up the lead in the bottom of the th on mo error catching throw over think that game is must win for red sox in seattle considering darwin will faced seattle ace randy johnson tonight must win in april they ve already won more games so far than anyone thought they would at this point of the season hope people aren getting too caught up in this streak it been fun but teams have streaks all the time and it is only when they are at the start of the season that they get so much attention charles newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu bme ri ccf org satchmo tknuth from tknuth bio ri ccf org todd knuth subject re wounded redbirds message id apr21 bme ri ccf org sender usenet bme ri ccf org nntp posting host satchmo bio ri ccf org reply to tknuth bio ri ccf org organization the cleveland clinic foundation references apr21 acad drake edu date wed apr gmt lines in article acad drake edu sbp002 acad drake edu writes does anyone know the status of jeffries or arocha arocha broke his finger trying to field ground ball he was put on the dl after the game and may require surgery don know about jefferies path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech concert duke news duke edu bchm biochem duke edu from fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re the mystery of ron gant message id news duke edu date apr gmt references apr20 mnemosyne cs du edu news duke edu sender news news duke edu organization biochemistry lines nntp posting host bruchner biochem duke edu in article news duke edu fls keynes econ duke edu forrest smith writes in article apr20 mnemosyne cs du edu msilverm nyx cs du edu mike silverman writes any of you experts want to analyze ron gant omeone sure needs to analyze him gant is head case in his what six or seven years in the majors he put together combined total of maybe one good season he lacks self confidence but worse he doesn really understand baseball curiously he seems to perform best when his job is threatened sit him down for game and he might get hit the next night but let him play and what is he thinking about getting hits driving in runs no he worried if he going to get that stolen bases or that th career home run he appears to have no learning curve he never figured out how to play third base what fiasco he still plays the outfield with his legs he lucky he so fast because it enables him to outrun his mistakes but as suggested earlier in the season it looks to me like he slowing down little bit or else every groundskeeper is watering the infield dirt little extra gant has had way too much of chance already he may get hot again for couple of months but he ll always revert to his true level gant ml record age this season year ab ba obp slg hr sb cs rd base expt year in the majors for parts of seasons total playing time approx seasons just looking at his hitting record he had seasons of ops greater than which is pretty good for an of his season is pretty decent for rookie the move to third base explains lot of his when he returned as an of he began hitting again and of course last year he slumped but no learning curve he has obviously improved his batting eye over the years as well as his sb cs ratio as to his fielding he was an infielder when he was drafted bman as he came up through the braves system and then the braves put him through position changes in the space of year he an adequate of although not great and at least some of your perception of his fielding is colored by watching him learn to play the of at the ml level know you re another long term braves fan about playing imo that the nd most difficult position to field after catcher at ss or you need more range and speed but at you ve got to have quick reflexes and have gun for an arm there are no second chances at even when playing sandlot softball granted still put my best overall infielder at ss but that because he gets more chances not because the job is harder it still amazes me that so many teams have tried to convert other position players to but maybe that because the supply of natural is scarce finally gant is player who puts pressure on himself to perform well and works hard to improve you don get those amazingly huge arms on that relatively small body without lot of weight work now whether he been overdoing it these days may be valid question as is the question of whether he tries too hard to make something happen during each at bat but frankly if player is going to not live up to potential much rather they fail by trying too hard than by not trying hard enough you might be able to teach relaxation to an adult but at that age don believe you can teach hustle all that said don think sign gant to another long term contract he now and think he free agent eligible in years when he ll be given his career curve and limitations wouldn expect him to last much past as ml ballplayer he might surprise me here but atlanta got some talent on the farm and rather take my chances down the road with nieves et al eric newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net news ans net newsgate watson ibm com hawnews watson ibm com fenway mjones from mjones watson ibm com mike jones subject re hbp bb big cat sender news hawnews watson ibm com nntp news poster message id mjones fenway date wed apr gmt distribution na reply to mjones donald aix kingston ibm com disclaimer this posting represents the poster views not necessarily those of ibm references qv9psinnsj6 lynx unm edu c5r7tv odin corp sgi com blue cis pitt edu apr20 ncar ucar edu nntp posting host fenway aix kingston ibm com organization ibm aix esa development kingston ny lines woods ncar ucar edu greg woods writes in article blue cis pitt edu dtate pitt edu david tate writes of course this is not the same as claiming as some do that galarraga inability to defer gratification isn hurting his team because he isn paid to walk or is an rbi guy or whatever alright that enough ve suffered with all kinds of insults as typical for the net but give me break galarraga is currently batting over and you guys are complaining that he isn drawing enough walks what would he have to do to please you guys bat you can hardly claim that he is hurting his team it would help if his obp were higher than his batting average yes the april usa today lists le grand chapeau as having batting average and obp that on for hitting with zip nil nada walks the reason lot of us are down on galarraga is that he has long history of showing that this is nowhere near his real level of ability except for drawing walks if he hit for say even ab be convinced that there was real change in his ability if he did it with an obp avg not only be amazed but make bet that that would be unique feat in the history of the game but what do ab prove look at some of the other fluke players at this point in the season player avg ab blauser grace milligan conine lansing slaught are any of these guys really that good well in word no how significant is galarraga average at the ab level hit is worth about if he had one of those hits called an error and one taken away by good defensive play he be in the range if he goes for in his next game he all the way down to in one game come back in june let talk then if it happens that the pitchers start throwing him fewer good pitches and he starts making lots of outs as someone speculated might happen then would agree with you that he isn taking enough pitches my comment that he isn paid to walk doesn mean that he should have license to swing at bad pitches and make outs it more along the lines of he batting and leading the league in rbi so what bloody difference does it make if he isn drawing lot of walks sheesh it history greg andres history is that he doesn walk much because he swings at bad pitches so his average isn very good ab doesn mean an awful lot compared to history of couple of thousand especially when there ample evidence bb in that his basic hitting approach hasn changed yeah he might suddenly have turned into hitter who never walks but don bet the rent money on it mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com from an historical basis middle east conflicts do not last long time vp dan quayle on nightline october newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net agate dog ee lbl gov network ucsd edu pacbell com uop csus edu netcom com netcomsv butch lmsc5 is lmsc lockheed com j019800 from j019800 lmsc5 is lmsc lockheed com subject re candlestick message id j019800 lmsc5 is lmsc lockheed com sender news butch lmsc lockheed com organization lockheed missiles space company inc date wed apr pdt lines original article newsgroups rec sport baseball path butch netcomsv netcom com csus edu wupost uwm edu zaphod mps ohio state ed from scunning louven berkeley edu sean cunningham subject candlestick message id apr21 pasteur berkeley edu sender nntp pasteur berkeley edu nntp poster nntp posting host louven berkeley edu organization university of california berkeley date wed apr gmt lines hey folks saw the giants play ball at the stick saturday april it was the game where pendelton broke up the scoreless tie in the ninth with two out two run homer to right to win it it wasn the game where the fans threw the give away fotoballs onto the field in response to the homer too bad huh well the stick is still cold the saturday game ended at pm and it was cold then can imagine night games in april at the stick the wind kicked up little too and got this idea at most games there pile of hot dog wrappers and cups and trash on the field lot of the time propose kid clean up corps composed mainly of year old kids who would love nothing better than to run out on the field in the fifth inning when the guy in the toro smooths the infield and grab the trash it might not be glamorous but at that age probably would have given anything to be on the field with the ballplayers everybody wins here whaddaya think sean was at opening day the stadium and new owners were great pick candlesti ck anytime over the giants playing out of state only wish the buttheads in san jose had enough balls to vote for stadium here newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov ncar noao stsci stosc cruz from cruz stsci edu subject re baseball logos available via anonymous ftp message id apr21 stsci edu lines sender news stsci edu organization space telescope science institute references apr21 ac dal ca distribution world na date thu apr gmt in article apr21 ac dal ca arishem ac dal ca writes well thanks to matthew wall the major league baseball logos which ve been posting over the past number of weeks now have home at the internet baseball archive to get them ftp to eucalyptus cc swarthmore edu login anonymously as per usual and cd to the baseball misc graphics directory both the gif files and the uuencoded versions are available darren darren reiniger reiniger ug cs dal ca arishem ac dal ca centre for marine geology dalhousie university halifax canada people who wonder where this generation is going should remind themselves where it came from in the first place have successfully copied all of the uuencoded versions of these logos to my local directory but when tried the gif files it said permission denied could you explain why and also how to execute the uuencoded files thanks ken ken cruz nfl champs dallas cowboys johns hopkins university mlb champs baltimore orioles baltimore maryland all star game oriole park at camden yards newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu utnut alchemy chem utoronto ca news from mark subject you could look it up message id apr21 alchemy chem utoronto ca sender news alchemy chem utoronto ca usenet news organization university of toronto chemistry department date wed apr gmt lines yes could look it up but prefer to post this question to the net read somewhere in long forgotten article that the handsignals used by major league umps were originally used to help deaf ball player by the name of dummy urban myth true gots ta know mark mbrownel alchemy chem utoronto ca newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet decwrl adobe snichols from snichols adobe com sherri nichols subject re hbp bb big cat message id apr20 adobe com sender usenet adobe com usenet news organization adobe systems incorporated references c5r7tv odin corp sgi com mjones fenway c5srg2 cpt odin corp sgi com distribution na date tue apr gmt lines in article c5srg2 cpt odin corp sgi com kubey sgi com ken kubey writes didn say that pitcher fear of throwing strikes to guys like mcgwire bonds and frank thomas was rational just said that it exists but why mcgwire and not carter can see some justification for bonds or thomas because they tend to have higher batting averages but the major difference see between mcgwire and carter is that carter doesn draw walks why aren pitchers afraid to throw strikes to carter sherri nichols snichols adobe com newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl adobe snichols from snichols adobe com sherri nichols subject re harry caray message id apr20 adobe com sender usenet adobe com usenet news organization adobe systems incorporated references c5srqr news cis umn edu blue cis pitt edu date tue apr gmt lines in article blue cis pitt edu traven pitt edu neal traven writes btw have we had show of hands about who will be attending this year sabr national in san diego ll be there as will and the ultimate lurker sherri nichols snichols adobe com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu sol ctr columbia edu eff news kei com ub dsinc gvls1 gvlf9 stevel from stevel gvlf9 vfl paramax com steve loomis newsgroups rec sport baseball subject stats message id apr23 vfl paramax com date apr gmt sender stevel gvlf9 steve loomis organization paramax systems corporation paoli pa lines nntp posting host gvlf9 im trying to find site that has updated daily stats more the national league ll take both leagues but really interested in the national league how about them philadelphia sillies newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu news cso uiuc edu uiatma hbrooks from hbrooks uiatma atmos uiuc edu harold brooks subject re bases loaded walk gives reds win in date fri apr gmt message id c5xwai nu news cso uiuc edu references mssc5w795 g4 netcom com apr22 pts mot com mssc5xb3i cg netcom com sender usenet news cso uiuc edu net noise owner organization glazier texas urban renewal task force lines in article mssc5xb3i cg netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes in article apr22 pts mot com ep502dn pts mot com writes in article g4 netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes during spring training made similarly innoncent looking comment about clutch hitting on this bb and the flames were flying no such thing as clutch hitting they the sdcn all screamed assumed they also meant there was no such thing as any kind of clutch performance given their comments still licking the wounds but do have rebuttal planned gotta do my homework as they say some deletions rather they showed quite convincingly that past clutch performance has never been able to predict future clutch performance sure you are convinced dave apparently so is tony perez however am not believe at the time of the sabo plate appearance that juan samuel was on the bench available for pinch hit duty over the past four seasons non clutch clutch ab ba ab ba sabo samuel do not claim that this is complete statistical analysis that proves the existence of clutch hitting or compelling testimony that samuel would have gotten base hit sure there is something wrong with the sample size or that the basic assumption that clutch performance is random invalidates any conclusions from this limited application or something or other don pretend to understand statistical analysis well we agree on the last part one of the basic things you need to have in statistic to be able to predict player performance on it in the future is for there to be correlation from year to year player batting average is correlated fairly well from year to year player ability to walk or infielder defensive average are correlated better that is to say given their past performance in those statistics we can have pretty good handle on how they ll do next year put in some simple information about aging and you can do even better one of the basic problems with something like clutch batting average overall batting average is that the correlation from year to year is almost zero adding to the sample size doesn seem to help much as counterexample to what you showed consider the following two players from non clutch clutch ab ba ab ba maldonado lemon if you had had these two players in by your logic in those clutch situations you bat maldonado for lemon in blink of an eye well in maldonado hit in non clutch and in clutch while lemon hit in non clutch and in clutch before you accuse me of completely cooking the data there were players who had clutch at bats every year from according to elias as simple measure of clutchness let just look at clutch ba non clutch ba if you use to predict for those players you find that of the were below league average in that measure both in and in were above league average in both periods and the other were above in one and below in the other if you were just flipping coins you expect to get above below in both and that switched the difference between the observed results and the coin flip experiment is not statisically significant btw correlating players overall batting average from with gives correlation coefficient of which is significant at something better than the confidence level correlating their clutch non clutch ba for the same period gives correlation of significant at no level of any interest everyone would agree hope that grand slam in the bottom of the ninth when your team is down by three is very clutch hit there is just no way to predict who is more likely to get the clutch hit based on past performance hitting in clutch situations if you say so dave no way actually it technically incorrect to say that we can predict future clutch performance it more correct to say that we can predict future clutch performance with any skill harold harold brooks hbrooks uiatma atmos uiuc edu national severe storms laboratory norman ok used to work for brewery too but didn drink on the job bavasi on dal maxvill view that florida can win the nl east in path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net agate jtchern from jtchern ocf berkeley edu joseph hernandez newsgroups rec sport baseball subject mlb standings and scores for fri apr rd date apr gmt organization jtc enterprises sports division major league baseball dept lines distribution world message id r91jg ojs agate berkeley edu nntp posting host monsoon ether berkeley edu keywords mlb mlb standings and scores for friday april rd including yesterday games national west won lost pct gb last streak home road san francisco giants won houston astros won atlanta braves lost san diego padres won los angeles dodgers lost colorado rockies lost cincinnati reds lost national east philadelphia phillies lost montreal expos won st louis cardinals won pittsburgh pirates won chicago cubs lost new york mets lost florida marlins won american west won lost pct gb last streak home road california angels won texas rangers lost minnesota twins won chicago white sox won seattle mariners won oakland athletics lost kansas city royals lost american east boston red sox lost detroit tigers won new york yankees won toronto blue jays won milwaukee brewers lost cleveland indians lost baltimore orioles lost yesterday scores idle teams listed in alphabetical order national league american league san diego padres boston red sox philadelphia phillies seattle mariners los angeles dodgers chicago white sox montreal expos baltimore orioles cincinnati reds milwaukee brewers pittsburgh pirates minnesota twins atlanta braves toronto blue jays florida marlins kansas city royals colorado rockies cleveland indians st louis cardinals california angels san francisco giants new york yankees new york mets oakland athletics chicago cubs idle detroit tigers idle houston astros idle texas rangers idle joseph hernandez rams lakers jtchern ocf berkeley edu kings dodgers raiders jtcent soda berkeley edu angels clippers path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com darwin sura net sgiblab adagio panasonic com nntp server caltech edu smoggy jeff from jeff smoggy gg caltech edu jeff goldsmith newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re juggling dodgers date apr gmt organization california institute of technology pasadena lines distribution all message id r22coinnhg1 gap caltech edu references mssc5mx2v c44 netcom com rvesterm vma cc nd edu mssc5qh3y l1p netcom com nntp posting host smoggy gg caltech edu in mssc5qh3y l1p netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes if this is true note that don think it is lasorda should be fired for at least two reasons publicly humiliating his players knuckling under to his players wishes there is fine line between getting players input and knuckling under to players demands manager much like military officer needs to have his her players complete obedience and respect during game after the game it no big deal but when there is no time to do more than react players must trust the manager or the team often falls apart see boston red sox ff strawberry demeanor as represented by the media often sounds like demands suspect that comment like enjoy hitting fourth used to it would get pretty brutally misinterpreted by the media if it came from strawberry russ porter quoted strawberry as saying feel more comfortable hitting cleanup and think perform best in that role paraphrased by my memory and bias that seems like fairly non petulant answer to what was almost certainly question like how do you feel about being moved to the third spot in the order more media sensitive player might answer the manager knows what he is doing if he thinks that batting me third will help the team then am all for it we ignore that answer as brown stuff so it seems little bit of an overreaction to brand darryl response as petulant personally think his argument is nonsense and that it really doesn matter much in which order the players in the order are batted except for personal stats if were darryl probably answer that question the number four spot gets few more rbi opportunities and get paid for rbis think it is best for me to bat fourth but am willing to hit third if tommy thinks it will benefit the team or something like that it would be helpful at salary time my rbis were down because was hitting third and make him sound like team player since strawberry will not likely go through arbitration but use the free agent market for his next contract maybe that argument is useless but it would help his image with the media without appearing to be totally content free remember the media is of the belief that one best rbi man should hit fourth so the argument is sensible regardless of whether or not it is true jeff path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu lll winken llnl gov sun barr news2me ebay sun com cronkite central sun com sixgun east sun com seven up east sun com dr pepper east sun com savy savastan from savastan savy east sun com paul savastano sun usops csu supply unit master scheduling newsgroups rec sport baseball subject no no box date apr gmt organization sun microsystems inc lines distribution world message id r8vq6 in dr pepper east sun com reply to savastan savy east sun com nntp posting host savy east sun com boston at seattle boston ab bi seattle ab bi riles felder lf quintana rf cotto dh greenwell lf sasser ph dawson dh griffey jr cf vaughn buhner rf calderon cf boone cooper martinez john valentin ss blowers pena valle vizquel ss totals totals boston seattle greenwell dp boston seattle lob boston seattle hr boone off hesketh sb felder blowers ip er bb so hr boston hesketh quantrill fossas gr harris ryan seattle bosio hesketh pitched to two batters in the fourth so bos dawson vaughn john valentin cooper sea buhner griffey jr blowers boone bb bos riles quintana sea felder buhner martinez umpires hp voltaggio kaiser johnson mckean newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu magnus acs ohio state edu thagerma from thagerma magnus acs ohio state edu teresa hagerman subject chicago visit message id apr23 magnus acs ohio state edu sender news magnus acs ohio state edu nntp posting host top magnus acs ohio state edu organization the ohio state university date fri apr gmt lines am planning weekend in chicago next month for my first live and in person cubs game would appreciate any advice from locals or used to be locals on where to stay what to see where to dine etc mail replies are fine thanks in advance teresa teresa hagerman ohio state university newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com emory news feed peachnet edu darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet mnemosyne cs du edu nyx gspira from gspira nyx cs du edu greg spira subject re why spanky message id apr16 mnemosyne cs du edu sender usenet mnemosyne cs du edu netnews admin account organization university of denver dept of math comp sci references apr12 mnemosyne cs du edu ql93binn1s5 postoffice1 psc edu date fri apr gmt lines boone psc edu jon boone writes on mon apr gmt in apr12 mnemosyne cs du edu greg spira gspira nyx cs du edu wrote does anybody in the pittsburgh area know why mike lavalliere was released last year kept saying that slaught should get the bulk of the playing time that he was clearly the better player at this point but leyland insisted on keeping pretty strict platoon and now he is released that doesn make any sense to me greg the story goes like this spanky is too slow if he were quicker he would still be here but with slaught and tom prince they didn want to lose prince in order to bring up that th pitcher slaught is about as good as spanky and prince is coming along nicely well my question still hasn been answered if spanky was bad enough to release this year why did he get so much playing time last year yes know he was part of platoon and that why he got more playing time than slaught but that doesn answer the question if slaught was so obviously better this year wasn this also obvious last year and shouldn he have been taking away some of spanky playing time against righties greg newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com emory gatech swrinde zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu ux1 cso uiuc edu bradley bradley edu camelot nittmo from nittmo camelot bradley edu christopher taylor subject when is melido due back message id nittmo camelot sender news bradley bradley edu nntp posting host camelot bradley edu organization bradley university distribution na date apr gmt lines when are the yankees planning on activating melido perez his days on the dl are up today but are they bringing him back this weekend thanks for any info newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech usenet ins cwru edu agate spool mu edu think com paperboy osf org dswartz from dswartz osf org dan swartzendruber subject re best homeruns message id apr16 osf org sender news osf org usenet news system organization open software foundation research institute references c568a3 e1r cs dal ca hpcc01 corp hp com date fri apr gmt lines in article hpcc01 corp hp com boell hpcc01 corp hp com donald boell writes have to say the most impressive hrs ve ever see came from dave kingman and his infamous moon raker drives remember one he hit circa at wrigley field that went across the street in dead center field and hit house on the roof he whiffed lot but when he did connect watch out include std disclaimer dan path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu msuinfo netnews upenn edu sepinwal from sepinwal mail sas upenn edu alan sepinwall newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re jewish baseball players message id netnews upenn edu date apr gmt references apr93 lafibm lafayette edu netnews upenn edu mssc5k47z fur netcom com sender news netnews upenn edu organization university of pennsylvania school of arts and sciences lines nntp posting host mail sas upenn edu in article mssc5k47z fur netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes polish and jewish are not mutually exclusive didn mean to offend or anything just quoting stanky himself on the subject remember one time last year he was being interviewed by espn and the interviewer can remember who asked stanky if he was jewish because he the interviewer was jewish and wanted to see more jewish ballplayers to which stanky replied polish not jewish so maybe that wasn the most pc thing for stanky to say and maybe was little naive when posted it think we should just devote this subject to finding actual jewish ballplayers myself am jewish and the only ones ever knew until now were koufax greenberg and blomberg alan path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com elroy jpl nasa gov nntp server caltech edu shippert from shippert cco caltech edu tim shippert newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re infield fly rule date apr gmt organization california institute of technology pasadena lines message id qmrciinnoin gap caltech edu references c5fegu qb hq ileaf com apr15 scott skidmore edu nntp posting host sandman caltech edu jrogoff scott skidmore edu jay rogoff writes one last infield fly question that has always puzzled me and hasn yet been addressed believe the rule also does not deal with this situation however if the infield fly is not caught at what point can runner legally leave his base fear of being doubled off for advancing too early the runner can leave his base at any time if the ball is caught he got to tag up if it isn caught he doesn have to tag up at all so if he feeling lucky your runner at second can sprint for glory as soon as the ball is popped up if it isn caught he probably scored run if it is he probably headed for aaa the only effect the infield fly has is to make the batter out thereby removing the force on the runners on base all other rules apply as if you were standing second with first open and the ball is popped up tim shippert shippert cco caltech edu if we are going to stick to this damned quantum jumping then regret that ever had anything to do with quantum theory schrodinger newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech news feed peachnet edu darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu spool mu edu agate news ucdavis edu dale ucdavis edu ez027993 from ez027993 dale ucdavis edu gary built like villanueva huckabay subject alomar vs baerga was hoping to stay out of this message id c5l7y2 v4 ucdavis edu sender usenet ucdavis edu organization julio lundy candlelight vigil society distribution na date fri apr gmt lines lyford frosty beverage writes uh yes baerga has lot of flash but alomar was the better hitter last year batters ba slg obp ab tb hr rbi bb so sb cs baerga alomar this is fascinating you say that alomar was the better hitter last year and immediately follow that up with numbers showing that baerga had better year the only category that see which shows an advantage for alomar is obp well obp is the most important offensive statistic and by big margin points of obp is worth considerably more than points of slugging that being said still think baerga was very slightly better last year but think this is as close to wash as you re likely to find personally don care much for alomar defense don think he nearly as good as people make him out to be and he can turn the dp to save his life he comes across the bag improperly and his release is slow considering the high leverage of the dp this is shortcoming can overlook in the long term move alomar to another position if the jays could trade hot devon white for something ll be alomar could be hell of cf in the long run think rather have jeff kent at and alomar in cf than alomar white gary huckabay you think that loud enough hole movie rights well if you re having trouble hearing it sir available thru be happy to turn it up for you didn ted frank know that many people your age liked king newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech swrinde zaphod mps ohio state edu darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet elroy jpl nasa gov news claremont edu ucivax news service uci edu unogate mvb saic com ast saic com asdi sac from sac asdi saic com steve conroy x6172 subject re darrrrrrrrryl message id apr16 ast saic com sender sac asdi steve conroy x6172 organization saic references apr15 acad drake edu apr16 alleg edu mssc5kcru ip netcom com date fri apr gmt lines in article mssc5kcru ip netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes the media is beating the incident at dodger stadium on wednesday to death but haven seen anything in rsb yet gerald perry of the cardinals pinch hit in the eighth inning with two on and his club down by run he stroked line drive into the right field corner the ball cleared the three foot high fence and went into the crowd darryl racing over from right center got to the spot in time to reach his glove up over the short fence but he missed the ball fan sitting in the front row wearing mitt reached up and caught the ball home run now ve seen the replay several times and have concluded that darryl missed the ball and that the fan glove was essentially behind darryl several dodger fans with seats in the immediate vicinity have claimed that the fan unquestionably interfered with strawberry what cannot be disputed however is that the fan who caught the ball never took his eye off it he was oblivious to where the fielder was playing he was also quite exuberant as soon as he realized he had made the catch stuff about daryl and tommy and everyone blaming fan for the loss deleted saw the replay several times too no question about it daryl missed the ball then the fan caught it daryl is so tall that he had the first shot at the ball daryl just whining again think it shows lack of class when tommy daryl and the dodgers blame single fan for losing the game what about the pitcher who threw up the gopher ball what about the pitchers that gave up runs up to that point sorry tommy if it were game and daryl was feet inches tall then maybe just maybe you have an argument newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech swrinde sdd hp com hpscit sc hp com cupnews0 cup hp com loos from loos cup hp com joe loos subject bonds vs maddux sender news cupnews0 cup hp com news admin message id c5l99l hfz cup hp com date fri apr gmt nntp posting host hpisq3lk cup hp com organization hewlett packard newsreader tin pl4 lines ve been following the giants closely over the off season newspapers notesgroup etc but had my first up close and personal last night at the stick after watching giants hitters struggle last year barry swing was very impressive he very quick and his swing seems effortless even compared to clark particularly clark as of late it was interesting to see bonds hit maddux so well not sure if barry was after revenge against the braves or what but he stroked three very pretty hits hr for rbi the giants as team are doing lot of surprising things this year in addition to bonds there has been some good pitching and some hitters seem to be swinging much better clayton defense has been superb mcgee seems to like leading off this year manwaring is driving the ball so on so forth hope it continues think they need to continue well into june before people are really sold that they are for real particularly the pitching for myself think the fresh start of magowan baker etc has really wiped out lot of negatives from the last few years and will be real factor in helping them significantly improve over last year joe loos loos cup hp com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech usenet ufl edu eng ufl edu spool mu edu agate msuinfo netnews upenn edu sepinwal from sepinwal mail sas upenn edu alan sepinwall newsgroups rec sport baseball subject yankee bullpen help message id netnews upenn edu date apr gmt sender news netnews upenn edu organization university of pennsylvania school of arts and sciences lines nntp posting host mail sas upenn edu buck showalter just can win bob wickman pitching the game of his life through eight innings yanks lead so buck decides to let the kid try and get his first complete game wickman manages to get two outs but in between four funs score and all of sudden it and wickman just can get the third out so buck goes to the bullpen and farr gets out the first guy he faces last night jimmy key is pitching another in long string of games of his life this guy just keeps getting better through eight innings yanks lead this time buck thinks don want repeat of that near fiasco with wickman so ll give my bullpen some work steve howe whose era was coming into the game left with it at he didn do too good then farr comes in he gives up two run homer and the royals win it what going on this is already the third or fourth time this year that the bullpen has blown lead farr howe have done it twice together monteleone done it once and think even habyan did it once what the deal we finally have terrific starting pitching so all of sudden our bullpen turns to shit what buck gonna do and what george gonna do if this continues to happen alan xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec sport baseball soc culture jewish newsgroups rec sport baseball soc culture jewish path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech udel darwin sura net wupost wuphys howdy marty from marty howdy wustl edu marty olevitch subject re jewish baseball players message id apr16 wuphys wustl edu sender usenet wuphys wustl edu usenet nntp posting host howdy organization washington physics dept references apr93 lafibm lafayette edu qkkodinn5f5 jhunix hcf jhu edu apr15 midway uchicago edu date fri apr gmt lines bo bilinsky newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet spool mu edu decwrl netcomsv netcom com erics from erics netcom com eric smith subject re infield fly rule message id ericsc5l9c1 hw8 netcom com organization netcom on line communication services guest references c5fegu qb hq ileaf com apr15 scott skidmore edu date fri apr gmt lines jrogoff scott skidmore edu jay rogoff writes one last infield fly question that has always puzzled me and hasn yet been addressed believe the rule also does not deal with this situation if infield fly is declared and the ball is caught runners can tag up and advance at their own risk as on any fly ball however if the infield fly is not caught at what point can runner legally leave his base fear of being doubled off for advancing too early when the ball hits the ground when fielder first touches the ball after it hits the ground enlightenment would be appreciated not sure understand this question when the if rule is invoked the batter is automatically out this relieves the runners from being forced to advance to the next base if the ball is not caught other than that isn it just the same as any situation in which runner on base is not forced to the next base on dropped fly ball that is if the ball is caught he can tag up and run or decide to stay and if the ball is dropped he can have left the base at any time eric smith erics netcom com erics infoserv com ci newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu cs utexas edu geraldo cc utexas edu portal austin ibm com awdprime austin ibm com yogi austin ibm com marc from marc yogi austin ibm com marc stephenson subject re astros are back sender news austin ibm com news id message id c5l9bl ihp austin ibm com date fri apr gmt distribution usa references apr13 ccsvax sfasu edu c5hhwv cvk austin ibm com apr199311534452 rosie uh edu organization ibm austin lines in article apr199311534452 rosie uh edu st1rp rosie uh edu schwam david writes in article c5hhwv cvk austin ibm com marc yogi austin ibm com marc stephenson writes astros relief corps holding together if doug jones keeps his changeup effective and xavier hernandez can be effective then it passable there no reasonable left handed help and the middle relief is iffy tom edens was expected to take over the joe boever setup man role but he been injured and he was an expansion team acquisition anyway houston thought that boever would demand too much money so they let him go doug jones can lose his touch he went from cleveland all star closer to the minors in pretty short span from what understand boever and murphy were considered expendable by the club houston felt that their positions could be filled by number of players art doug jones is the key to houston success he must have another great year for houston to challenge in the nl west no argument at all with murphy he scared the hell out of me when he came in last year on the other hand the club though enough of boever to put him into an awful lot of games he may have led the league in appearances he did at least at some point he seemed to be very viable setup guy but guess that not considered that crucial by the club can just remember two years ago so well though the unsuspected strength of the lower part of the order has saved the club so far biggio and finley just aren doing their job of getting on base instead of filling his role as an rbi man bagwell has had to assume biggio and finley job biggio concerns me since he usually starts the season very strong not that concerned those guys have been relatively consistent over the years and they have no good reasons to decline no injuries not old expect them to come through just fine it those guys that have not been consistently good that are the worrisome part even if they are coming through right now on side note are you at all concerned with the rumors concerning next year uniform there is talk that their road uniform will be blech traditional grey with the word houston written across the chest if not mistaken their home uniforms may totally eliminate the color orange shiver mclane favorite color is red so this sounds like their old road unis pretty dull buttons or pullovers ll check through my uniform book to see if they ve always had some orange really upset the current unforms are dull and the new ones sound horrible like to see the uniform of the mid return they may not have been pretty but houston had established long precident of wearing the ugliest uniforms in baseball and liked it well we ll see ve got astros pullover shirt with the astros stripes across the shoulders and have trouble making myself wear it in public can see why they might want that to change gee if they eliminate the orange will they reupholster the seats in the astros stripes section what used to be the gold and yellow levels don know those numbers they use now saw pinstripe version of an astros cap and actually thought it looked good marc stephenson ibm aws advanced workstations systems austin tx disclaimer the content of this posting is independent of official ibm position internet marc austin ibm com vnet marc at ausvmq ibm path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech concert duke news duke edu bchm biochem duke edu from fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re players rushed to majors message id news duke edu date apr gmt references apr pilot njin net apr15 holos0 uucp hydra gatech edu sender news news duke edu organization biochemistry lines nntp posting host bruchner biochem duke edu in article hydra gatech edu re4 prism gatech edu russell earnest writes in article apr15 holos0 uucp lbr holos0 uucp len reed writes in article c5hq3o g4p tss com hanson tss com hanson loo writes didn bob horner go straight from arizona state univ to the atlanta braves remember he had one great month hitting dingers and then the next heard he was in japan month well he did have short career compared to what one might have expected for such highly touted prospect due to being injury prone overweight and having no work ethic but he certainly did not suffer from being rushed to the bigs sorry len this is exactly how he suffered from being rushed to the bigs being overweight and having no work ethic leading to being injury prone with nothing to loose might have been corrected in richmond did you intend smiley after your comment if remember correctly which is always in doubt horner signing with the braves was contingent on starting in atlanta think he could have gone back to arizona st for one more year if he hadn signed anyhow the braves did try to send him to richmond once it lead to week long walkout methinks horner had no work ethic before he was drafted and minor league play wouldn have helped but his raw talent would have gotten him into the ml and it did keep him there for while until he started falling on his wrists eric too lazy to update his sig roush newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet world eastgate from eastgate world std com mark bernstein subject re jewish baseball players message id c5l9vc r6 world std com organization the world public access unix brookline ma references apr93 lafibm lafayette edu qkkodinn5f5 jhunix hcf jhu edu date fri apr gmt lines al weiss played second for the white sox in the early sixties chiefly as back up to don buford good glove no hit some spunk which reminds me do they still serve kosher hot dogs at the new comiskey mark bernstein eastgate systems inc main street watertown ma usa voice in usa eastgate world std com compuserve applelink eastgate newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet world eastgate from eastgate world std com mark bernstein subject jewish broadcasters was jewish baseball players message id c5l9zs world std com organization the world public access unix brookline ma references apr93 lafibm lafayette edu qkkodinn5f5 jhunix hcf jhu edu date fri apr gmt lines for that matter how many gentleman of the press box have been jewish the only jewish sportscaster that comes to mind is steve williams who had phillies show on kyw in philadelphia in the mark bernstein eastgate systems inc main street watertown ma usa voice in usa eastgate world std com compuserve applelink eastgate newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com col hp com news dtc hp com srgenprp craige from craige sad hp com craig eid subject candlestick park experience long sender news srgenprp sr hp com news administrator message id c5lb8d dhh srgenprp sr hp com date fri apr gmt organization hp sonoma county srsd mwtd mid newsreader tin version pl6 lines ve been giants season ticket holder for years and never really complained about the old ballyard place sure it been cold the food lines were long and the hired hands were surly but this was all part of the giants mystique or so thought went to tuesday game giants over the marlins and the stick was much different place nothing short of dome will eliminate the wind but everything is lot better the lines are lot shorter the bathrooms are clean and have running water and the hired hands were very polite the new foghorn lights up and blows after each homerun and the wooden fence are very nice as are the new bleachers the bleachers start right at the top of the fence and give great view and they ve got beer stands at the bottome of the bleachers the only complaint is that the electronic old fashioned scoreboard looks electronic could be better these things should have been done long time ago but it took real businessman ex safeway president peter magowan to figure it out just like he used to tell his checkers if the customers don come back don need as many checkers this isn knock on bob lurie he was competent businessman but he didn deal much with the general public ll give an example of how the level of service has changed the onion dispenser jammed as was using it an attendant came over apoligized for the problem and proceeded to fix the machine after he was done he cleaned the machine and said he was glad to be able to help in the old days there was no attendant and the folks at the concession stands would say go to the stand feet away they might be able to help all in all it was fun day craig eid mail address craige hpsad sad hp com newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu linac uchinews quads as16 from as16 quads uchicago edu adam shah subject re when is melido due back message id apr16 midway uchicago edu sender news uchinews uchicago edu news system reply to as16 midway uchicago edu organization university of chicago references nittmo camelot distribution na date fri apr gmt lines in article nittmo camelot nittmo camelot bradley edu christopher taylor writes when are the yankees planning on activating melido perez his days on the dl are up today but are they bringing him back this weekend thanks for any info the chicago tribune pitching form has perez pitching today but given the way that buck changes his rotation so often that could just be the work of confused stat page editor adam as16 midway uchicago edu aka mercutio obligatory go yankees for baseball season woodlawn ave apt chicago il newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net paladin american edu howland reston ans net agate deep rsoft bc ca mindlink a29 from john carson mindlink bc ca john carson subject kansas city mail contact organization mind link british columbia canada date fri apr gmt message id mindlink bc ca sender news deep rsoft bc ca usenet news at rsoft bc ca lines would the person who is running the mail list for kansas city royals please mail details regarding mailing list if you on the list and know the info please send me info as well please mail as don have time always to read this group john john carson mindlink bc ca john carson concepts newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell tedward from tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer subject re ind source picks baerga over alomar case closed message id apr16 cs cornell edu organization cornell univ cs dept ithaca ny references apr15 island com c5l6dn ub andy bgsu edu distribution na date fri apr gmt lines in article c5l6dn ub andy bgsu edu klopfens andy bgsu edu bruce klopfenstein writes fester island com mike fester writes say you could make good for them being about equal right now rated baerga higher actually finally an objective source alomar great player but so is baerga nice to see the objective source cited rather than my dad bigger than your dad posts know you have this fucked up idea that anybody who prefers alomar to baerga must be jay lover and indian hater sorry you got that one wrong hate the jays and don care one way or the other about the indians but objectively alomar had the better offensive year last year so have to pick him you admit as reliable objective source then you will note that they rated alomar as the better offensive player chosing baerga over alomar only because of his defense that joke alomar might not be gold glover but he certainly no worse than baerga defensively valentine path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net spool mu edu sdd hp com elroy jpl nasa gov nntp server caltech edu bdunn from bdunn cco caltech edu brendan dunn newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re defensive averages third base date apr gmt organization california institute of technology pasadena lines message id qmv38innqb4 gap caltech edu references c5jpwn iyt cs uiuc edu c5l068 v3 srgenprp sr hp com nntp posting host punisher caltech edu in article c5l068 v3 srgenprp sr hp com craigs srgenprp sr hp com craig stelter writes gaetti gary apologies if don know what talking about but as twins fan like to think they have good players in any park not sure if remember completely or not but think gaetti played with the twins in for the world series and again in note that his lowest of the believe the next or at least the last two were played with the angels lots of factors make player excell hate it when so many use the dome it may not be ideal but nice to comfortably enjoy baseball and football even when it snowing and raining craig sure the company for which work does not have all the same opinions that do the event that had the most impact on gaetti career was his leg injury in his performance dropped radically from to he was still with the twins in and but if you look at his stats both offensive and defensive he never has come back to his pre injury level brendan newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel news udel edu darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet utcsri newsflash concordia ca pavo concordia ca klein from klein pavo concordia ca corelmark subject re best homeruns message id apr199315023447 pavo concordia ca news software vax vms vnews sender usenet newsflash concordia ca usenet news system nntp posting host pavo1 concordia ca organization concordia university references c568a3 e1r cs dal ca hpcc01 corp hp com date fri apr gmt lines haven been following the previous hr but there are two that saw live that would have to be up there up where there rick monday hr to bury the expos in the nl championship in it was hit off steve rogers who is rhp and primarily starter why was he used as reliever when the spos had reardon and billlee warming up in the bullpen considering monday couldn touch lhp lee would have been safe bet he wasn even doing any drugs at that time or so he told me and around others on recent venture into montreal the blast wasn the important aspect it was the timing seventh game tie game and in the top of the th the expos almost came back though mike schmidt hit one that killed the expos in so close yet so far and strawberry killed pitch on the second day of the season couple of years ago it went off the technical ring in the big it almost left the stadium that was hit hard corelmark newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet timbuk cray com hemlock cray com rja from rja mahogany126 cray com russ anderson subject re nl vs al message id apr16 hemlock cray com originator rja mahogany126 lines sender rja mahogany126 russ anderson nntp posting host mahogany126 organization the world champion minnesota twins references apr12 cs cornell edu c5dxqp hoo news rich bnr ca date apr cdt in article c5dxqp hoo news rich bnr ca bratt crchh7a9 nosubdomain nodomain john bratt writes how about game length don know if this is valid statement or not but al games sure seem to last lot longer make sure to take the sutcliff fisk ect factor into account russ anderson disclaimer any statements are my own and do not reflect upon my employer or anyone else ex twins jack morris innings pitched runs world series mvp newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu cs uiuc edu pegasus cs uiuc edu steph from steph pegasus cs uiuc edu dale stephenson subject re defensive averages third base message id steph pegasus cs uiuc edu sender news cs uiuc edu organization university of illinois dept of comp sci urbana il references c5jpwn iyt cs uiuc edu c5l068 v3 srgenprp sr hp com date fri apr gmt lines in c5l068 v3 srgenprp sr hp com craigs srgenprp sr hp com craig stelter writes dale stephenson steph cs uiuc edu wrote in c5jjrj em3 cs uiuc edu steph cs uiuc edu dale stephenson writes compiled from the last five defensive average reports here are the career das for the individual players in the reports stats are courtesy of sherri nichols players are listed in descending order and some comments with some players deleted third basemen leius scott looks good too bad he moving to short pagliarulo mike this is an interesting line his figure was slightly below average his was pathetic and his was the next best year by anybody part of that may be his mobility was with the yankees was with the padres who appear to have rotten infield was with the twins and judging by leius and gaetti the metrodome may be good place to play third gaetti gary apologies if don know what talking about but as twins fan like to think they have good players in any park not sure if remember completely or not but think gaetti played with the twins in for the world series and again in note that his lowest of the believe the next or at least the last two were played with the angels actually gaetti first year with california was his da wasn out of line with his career averages and his was actually below average in but check out the last three years at the metrodome gaetti al avg pags leius al avg leius al avg for the last three years the highest das in either league have been posted by minnesota players three different ones including one pags who was mediocre to horrible elsewhere that doesn prove park effect is at work any more than san diego horrible infield numbers prove park effect is at work but it looks like strong possibility to me lots of factors make player excell hate it when so many use the dome it may not be ideal but nice to comfortably enjoy baseball and football even when it snowing and raining and it might even be nice play to thrid base dale stephenson steph cs uiuc edu baseball fanatic it is considered good to look wise especially when not overburdened with information golden kimball newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com hpscit sc hp com cupnews0 cup hp com news1 boi hp com rdetweil from rdetweil boi hp com richard detweiler subject re phills vs pirates sender news boi hp com news server project message id c5lcop fv boi hp com date fri apr gmt references none apr16 vfl paramax com organization hewlett packard boise printer division keywords mlb lines in article apr16 vfl paramax com edd gvlf4 gvl unisys com ed dougherty writes as philly fan as as penna baseball fan anxious to see the penna series anyone know when it starts and where the first games will be played this is think always good baseball to me and the pirates are also off to good start ed doc when is it did you say well let me shell out here and run this handy dandy program mlb pit phi and the answer is monday pittsburg at philadelphia pm tuesday pittsburg at philadelphia pm wednesday pittsburg at philadelphia pm friday philadelphia at pittsburg pm saturday philadelphia at pittsburg pm sunday philadelphia at pittsburg am friday pittsburg at philadelphia pm saturday pittsburg at philadelphia pm sunday pittsburg at philadelphia am monday philadelphia at pittsburg pm tuesday philadelphia at pittsburg pm wednesday philadelphia at pittsburg pm thursday philadelphia at pittsburg pm this is great little program its available at an ftp site near you unfortunatly don recall which one any schedule question you got is answered with this little gem many thanks to the author for providing this service path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu menudo uh edu rosie uh edu st1rp from st1rp rosie uh edu schwam david newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re astros for real date apr cdt organization university of houston lines distribution usa message id apr199314300769 rosie uh edu references apr15 ccsvax sfasu edu c5ky58 kd austin ibm com nntp posting host rosie uh edu news software vax vms vnews in article c5ky58 kd austin ibm com marc yogi austin ibm com marc stephenson writes in article apr15 ccsvax sfasu edu millerwl ccsvax sfasu edu writes who thinks the astros are going places they re currently first place they re on the road agree lumberjack except that they re in nd they are going places san diego los angeles san francisco cincinnati denver atlanta miami philadelphia new york montreal pittsburgh chicago st louis and points in between but they re at home but they faced the phillies team that got off to an start just not used to an overly enthusiastic houston fan really shouldn discourage it so hang in there lumberjack but get ahold of that shift key will ya obbase apparently the new owner drayton mclain sp doesn particularly like excuses an item in our paper the austin american statesman if you read it here it was somewhere else first said that he wouldn take injuries as an excuse for losing because that possibility should have been accounted for uh oh don want an owner that ll keep everybody on edge never gotten that feeling about him but who knows does to be honest think the city of houston loves the new owner he has brought baseball back to houston with key acquisitions players that were from the houston area and wanted to play for the astros don think that too many people are fearful that mclane will meddle in the team as he has already admitted that he doesn know whole lot about baseball mclane is businessman and doesn like excuses he makes valid point that injuries shouldn be an excuse to this club look at the depth of the bench this season canadele can play positions bass and james are solid outfielders and can hit well too uribe is nice to have as well the pitching staff has legitimate starters we re dealing with young houston team so injuries shouldn play big role the only threat is the bullpen if jonesy goes out we may be in trouble but with the type of starters we have this season there is less pressure on the pen david schwam university of houston st1rp jetson uh edu newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu agate boulder ucsu spot colorado edu timlin from timlin spot colorado edu michael timlin subject re best homeruns message id timlin spot colorado edu sender news ucsu colorado edu usenet news system nntp posting host spot colorado edu organization university of colorado boulder references c568a3 e1r cs dal ca hpcc01 corp hp com apr16 osf org date fri apr gmt lines dswartz osf org dan swartzendruber writes in article hpcc01 corp hp com boell hpcc01 corp hp com donald boell writes have to say the most impressive hrs ve ever see came from dave kingman and his infamous moon raker drives remember one he hit circa at wrigley field that went across the street in dead center field and hit house on the roof he whiffed lot but when he did connect watch out my favorite was the barry foote homer that bounced on waveland and through second floor window across the street second though would be the kong drive that was last seen bouncing down the street that dead ends to the park at waveland mike timlin timlin spot colorado edu newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen uunet timbuk cray com hemlock cray com rja from rja mahogany126 cray com russ anderson subject re surfeit of offense message id apr16 hemlock cray com originator rja mahogany126 lines sender rja mahogany126 russ anderson nntp posting host mahogany126 organization the world champion minnesota twins references apr14 cs cornell edu qi008innphe jhunix hcf jhu edu date apr cdt in article qi008innphe jhunix hcf jhu edu pablo jhunix hcf jhu edu pablo iglesias writes in article apr14 cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes last year the american league scored runs in games for total of runs per game with hr game through tuesday the al has runs in games for total of runs per game and total of hr game in there were runs per game and hr game the big question how significant is this have we returned to or is this just minor abberation some thoughts thought offense was generally down in april rising as the weather got warm and pitchers got tired this may be bigger abberation from the norm than it seems don get feeling that the weather has been an issue this year there doesn seem to be really cold spell in north america which does makes it harder to hit not to mention making the ball carry less you obviously did not watch the twins in chicago no cold spell it been snowing most of the week in minnesota inches in duluth last weekend would still put things under the too early to tell category yup russ anderson disclaimer any statements are my own and do not reflect upon my employer or anyone else ex twins jack morris innings pitched runs world series mvp newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen spool mu edu sdd hp com hp cv hp pcd hpcvaac koufax cv hp com paula from paula koufax cv hp com paul andresen subject dick estelle message id apr16 hpcvaac cv hp com sender nobody hpcvaac cv hp com nobody nntp posting host koufax cv hp com organization our lady of the stand up triple date fri apr gmt lines does anyone know if the dick estelle who does the radio reader on npr is one in the same with the lefty who pitched briefly for the jints in just curious paul spending too much time reading the baseball encyclopedia we will stretch no farm animal beyond its natural length paula koufax cv hp com paul andresen hewlett packard home nw mckinley corvallis or sabr member since path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu darwin sura net guvax acc georgetown edu cs cosc georgetown edu tim newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re sparky anderson gets win tigers beat message id apr16 guvax acc georgetown edu from tim cs cosc georgetown edu tim snyder date apr references ragraca vela acs oakland edu distribution world organization georgetown university washington dc nntp posting host cs cosc georgetown edu lines in article ragraca vela acs oakland edu ragraca vela acs oakland edu randy graca writes tigers manager sparky anderson gets his th career win as moments ago the tigers completed two game sweep over the oakland at tiger stadium by beating the here are the highlights oakland detroit game description deleted in the post game interview on wjr radio in detroit sparky anderson said its one of the few times he gotten emotional in his managing career it was big moment for him and sure all of us tiger fans are unanimously very happy for him and what way to get number woofing deleted randy in another post game interview larussa claimed that sparky was the best manager in basebal explaining that to be part of the history of sparky softened the blow of losing go tigers tim timothy law snyder department of computer science reiss georgetown university washington dc tim normal georgetown edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net spool mu edu enterpoop mit edu senator bedfellow mit edu athena mit edu cmk from cmk athena mit edu charles kozierok newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re yankees win home opener date apr gmt organization massachusetts institute of technology lines distribution usa message id qn3itinnl8u senator bedfellow mit edu references netnews upenn edu apr14 alleg edu rvesterm vma cc nd edu nntp posting host marinara mit edu in article rvesterm vma cc nd edu rvesterm vma cc nd edu writes in article apr14 alleg edu millits yankee org sam millitello says telling you sam three call up mom and ask bob vesterman yeah and in case even that isn enough to prompt boy genius sam to pick up paper and see how his name is spelled here another hint the single comes between the two charles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu not for mail from chuck cygnus eid anl gov charles cilek newsgroups rec sport baseball subject how is slugging percentage computed date apr organization utexas mail to news gateway lines sender daemon cs utexas edu message id aa12215 cygnus eid anl gov nntp posting host cs utexas edu subject line says it all thanks in advance please email chuck cygnus eid anl gov go cubs path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu ub oswego soswva ma ind25 from ma ind25 blurt oswego edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re jewish baseball players message id apr16 blurt oswego edu date apr gmt organization suny college at oswego oswego ny lines believe that rusty staub was also jewish ball player also mordaci brown back in the early th century he was pitcher whose nickname was fingers brown for obvious reasons he had fingers newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com ncr sd ncrcae ncrhub2 lznj2 lznj ulysses allegra princeton crux roger from roger crux princeton edu roger lustig subject re braves pitching updatedir message id apr16 princeton edu originator news nimaster sender news princeton edu usenet news system nntp posting host crux princeton edu reply to roger astro princeton edu roger lustig organization princeton university references apr15 acad drake edu apr15 adobe com apr15 acad drake edu date fri apr gmt lines in article apr15 acad drake edu sbp002 acad drake edu writes not clear to me at all certainly rather have team who was winning games than games in the game luck is going to play much bigger role than in the game but you still need the pitching staff to hold the opposing team to one run not if you ve scored four runs you don why strain even the best pitching staff why not make it easier for them in the game the best pitching staff in the world can compensate for blown call bad hop gust of wind winning close is the wrong way to win both keeping opposing runs down and scoring lot yourself are insurance against the shit happens aspect of baseball not every great teamhas even good pitching the big red machine of the was league average in pitching but somehow rose morgan bench perez etc managed to win games more than once peaking at roger newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com ncr sd ncrcae ncrhub2 lznj2 lznj ulysses allegra princeton crux roger from roger crux princeton edu roger lustig subject re all time best players message id apr16 princeton edu originator news nimaster sender news princeton edu usenet news system nntp posting host crux princeton edu reply to roger astro princeton edu roger lustig organization princeton university references apr199309554277 ariel lerc nasa gov apr14 princeton edu apr15 aplcen apl jhu edu date fri apr gmt lines in article apr15 aplcen apl jhu edu jmhodapp aplcomm jhuapl edu writes in article apr14 princeton edu roger crux princeton edu roger lustig writes in article apr13 bsu ucs mbstultz leo bsuvc bsu edu writes ve recently been working on project to determine the greatest players at their respective postions career what about johnny hodapp the greatest nd baseman in cleveland indians history hits in consistantly over great great second baseman um the header said career hodapp managed about pa in his nine years in the majors as for his consistently over make that three years in row preceded by part time year plus his last year with boston hodapp only qualified for the batting title five times was he injured he retired right around his th birthday anyway hodapp put up flashy numbers the year everybody put up flashy numbers that was his only really good year with bat his other years were marred by lack of power and an inability to draw walks only of those pa were bases on balls which does not describe feared hitter on the other hand he was part of the long line of famous cleveland wambsganss riggs stephenson etc roger jon johnny hodapp jmhodapp aplcomm jhuapl edu newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com ncr sd ncrcae ncrhub2 lznj2 lznj ulysses allegra princeton crux roger from roger crux princeton edu roger lustig subject re new home for the bosox message id apr16 princeton edu originator news nimaster sender news princeton edu usenet news system nntp posting host crux princeton edu reply to roger astro princeton edu roger lustig organization princeton university references qh3pu gh transfer stratus com apr15 scott skidmore edu date fri apr gmt lines in article apr15 scott skidmore edu jrogoff scott skidmore edu jay rogoff writes agree though also be happy with stadium that looks like new comiskey the new park was also made for baseball unlike three rivers the vet riverfront etc it not football park in which they also play baseball while we re on the multipurpose subject let not forget shea which was designed to accommodate both the mets jets it was the first stadium think to have the box seats on rollers so they could be oriented at right angles for baseball in parallel for football not the first rfk olim dc stadium was built years earlier nowadays they don move the seats back for the few exhibition games but the rd base lf lower deck used to move it was all metal which was pretty noisy on bat day of course with the jets gone to jersey and truly good football stadium the mets are saddled with multipurpose stadium where because it circular the seats are almost always too far from the action the mets announcers kiner murphy in particular have always hyped it as beautiful shea stadium tipoff to how unbeautiful it truly is it vastly better than it was before they fixed it though back in the late it was dump roger don you like jet noise newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com ncr sd ncrcae ncrhub2 lznj2 lznj ulysses allegra princeton crux roger from roger crux princeton edu roger lustig subject re dave kingman for the hall of fame message id apr16 princeton edu originator news nimaster sender news princeton edu usenet news system nntp posting host crux princeton edu reply to roger astro princeton edu roger lustig organization princeton university references apr15 news yale edu date fri apr gmt lines in article apr15 news yale edu steve tomassi writes hi baseball fans so what do you say don you think he deserves it mean heck if dave winfield ho hum is seriously being considered for it as is lee smith ha then why don we give dave kingman chance or darrell evans yeah yeah after the hall of fame takes in them it can take in eddie murray and jeff reardon um what eddie murray was superb first baseman for long time winfield as produced consistently for almsot years and excellently on several occasions dave kingman best year was like darryl strawberry typical year with the mets darrell evans too did whole lot more than just hit homers which is all that kong did well in any case am sick and tired mostly sick of everybody giving hall of fame consideration to players that are by today standards marginal whom are you talking about yes eddie murray is marginal but that because he years old he wasn marginal for long time honestly ozzie smith and robin yount don belong there they re both shortstops that just hung around for long time big deal not smith has hung around for long time and fielded the position better than anyone else ever has yount stopped being shortstop about decade ago in case you hadn noticed one of his two mvp awards was as centerfielder let be little more selective huh stop handing out these honors so liberally save them for the guys who really deserve it face it if like whom there are many players in the hall who aren anywhere near as goos as the guys you re running down something isn done there will be little prestige in the hall of fame anymore when that already the case by some standards but the bad players in the hall are all from the and recent picks have generally been excellent certain individuals believe that steve garvey or jack morris are potential candidates the absurdity is apparent gee can these guys even compare to the more likely future hall of famers like kirby puckett or nolan ryan no but who cares was stan musial anywhere near as good as babe ruth not really but he obviously belongs there the hall has generally had about the top of major leaguers as more players come through the game more will be in that top and yes it pretty easy to argue that smith yount evans winfield etc are in the top dave kingman on the other hand was liability throughout most of his career of course garvey hasn gotten lot of hof press so don know what you mean as for ryan is his better than morris that what lot of voters tend to look at and morris was awfully good for decade and doesn lead mlb history in walks allowed either roger newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com ncr sd ncrcae ncrhub2 lznj2 lznj ulysses allegra princeton crux roger from roger crux princeton edu roger lustig subject re jewish baseball players message id apr16 princeton edu originator news nimaster sender news princeton edu usenet news system nntp posting host crux princeton edu reply to roger astro princeton edu roger lustig organization princeton university references apr93 lafibm lafayette edu date fri apr gmt lines in article apr93 lafibm lafayette edu vb30 lafibm lafayette edu vb30 writes just wondering friend and were talking the other day and we were for some reason trying to come up with names of jewish baseball players past and present we weren able to come up with much except for sandy koufax somebody stankowitz and maybe john lowenstein can anyone come up with any more know it sounds pretty lame to be racking our brains over this but humor us thanks for your help stankiewicz doubt it koufax was one of two jewish hofs the other is hank greenberg other good players buddy myer johnny kling norm and larry sherry ken holtzman saul rogovin ed reulbach there have been over jewish major leaguers few years ago there was an article about someone who keeps track of this in spy magazine the article was entitled jews on first of course there have also been at least two books on the subject roger path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech udel bogus sura net jhunix hcf jhu edu jhuvms hcf jhu edu doctor8 from doctor8 jhuvms hcf jhu edu jason abner miller newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re sex uniforms and good taste date apr est organization the johns hopkins university hcf lines distribution na message id apr199311330607 jhuvms hcf jhu edu references rvesterm vma cc nd edu apr93 vax clarku edu r6r9s ob network ucsd edu apr23 news cs brandeis edu nntp posting host jhuvms hcf jhu edu news software vax vms vnews in article apr23 news cs brandeis edu st902415 pip cc brandeis edu writes in article r6r9s ob network ucsd edu king cogsci ucsd edu jonathan king writes which reminds me yet again of bucs cards game in whitey herzog last year as cards manager karen and were watching the game on tv and for some barely explicable reason the camera kept dwelling on the white rhino himself at his uniform filling worst truly horrible do you remember game of the nlcs after the dodgers defeated the mets and ugh dugh foo boo fat stomach tom lasorda came running out on to the field in celebration yuck he undulated his arms flew up and down keeping time with his rolling set of stomachs which flew all around the cozy confines of chavez ravine he oozed like white gastropod he ran it was disgusting sight not only couldn watch my mets in the series had to watch fat stomach lasorda roll around dodger blargh but what made it memorable was what karen eventually said about this which was would rather sleep with jar of bill landrum spit under my pillow than look at whitey herzog in one of those uniforms if you like short fat men who grunt curse and spit lot whitey certainly your man former wfan host pete franklin on the white rat but it true this emphasis on the appearance of ballplayers in tight uniforms only works if the player actually has an extraodinary physique looking at charlie hough scrawny torso through those tight white shirts just sort of makes me decide hmmm don want to eat lunch today or tomorrow or anytime soon when al harazin first became mets gm he was asked if he intended to help redesign the mets uniforms and change their image in particular they asked him about the orange and blue racing stripe that runs down the sides the uniforms he said that he very much in favor of keeping them because they re sleek and they re sexy sid fernandez in tight fitting uniform with sleek racing stripe to denote speed and potencty mmmmmmmm lard kevin mcreynolds diving after fly ball mmmmmmmm man war baby pat howell well never mind nothing could be tight on him they don make uniform sizes that small adam wishes he contribute something more interesting to levin jason miller some doctor guy frank tanana newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net agate headwall stanford edu unixhub lll winken llnl gov iggy gw vitalink com wetware spunky redbrick com psinntp psinntp wrldlnk usenet from dennis parslow p00421 psilink com subject greg maddux run support in reply to c5rclz ah news2 cis umn edu message id p00421 psilink com sender usenet worldlink com nntp posting host organization performance systems int date fri apr gmt mailer psilink dos lines know you all were saying ha the braves score few runs for maddux that ll shut that guy up but no think we ll just keep track bit longer last outing runs total to date runs games braves record in maddux starts see ya next time dennis dennis parslow that better be korean good troy ny luck symbol remo williams p00421 psilink com xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec sport baseball soc culture japan path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc sdd hp com sgiblab nec gw nec tyo wnoc tyo news nupm citsvr1 citnugw nttdpe lab lab yajima from yajima nttcom ntt jp yajima hiroshi newsgroups rec sport baseball soc culture japan subject re yakult swallows japanese pro baseball team message id f0v moqf lab ntt jp date apr gmt references gjc l5tr lab ntt jp lk jaf lab ntt jp anq qs7 lab ntt jp rb tjt lab ntt jp edu hvq lab ntt jp aqo hfdf lab ntt jp sender news lab ntt jp distribution rec organization ntt network information systems labs musashino tokyo lines in reply to yajima nttcom ntt jp message of apr gmt tuesday game of beloved yakult swallows at jingu hanshin tigers beloved yakult ito nakagomi hr yakult arai st central league standing pct gb hiroshima carp chunichi dragons hanshin tigers hated giants beloved swallows yokohama baystars hiroshi yajima mail yajima nttcom ntt jp ntt network information systems laboratories midori cho chome musashino shi tokyo japan tel fax newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech swrinde elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl adobe snichols from snichols adobe com sherri nichols subject re obp hurt by sac flies was re hbp bb big cat message id apr23 adobe com sender usenet adobe com usenet news organization adobe systems incorporated references apr22 leland stanford edu apr23 mnemosyne cs du edu apr23 rigel econ uga edu date fri apr gmt lines in article apr23 rigel econ uga edu scottm helena stat uga edu scott mclure writes sorry gotta disagree here last time played ball went up on several occasions intending to hit fly ball deep enough to score the runner from third or advance runner to third it relatively easy actually you swing under the path of the ball you normally would to hit good line drive with fastballs it very easy much more difficult with good breaking balls good hitter with excellent bat control can voluntarily hit fly balls to the outfield at least oh of the time maybe more there blurb in the stats scoreboard about this and though don have the book with me here my memory is that the best at hitting sac flies were far below this number sherri nichols snichols adobe com newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc news service uci edu unogate mvb saic com ast saic com asdi sac from sac asdi saic com steve conroy x6172 subject re football vs baseball was game length message id apr23 ast saic com sender sac asdi steve conroy x6172 organization saic references apr20 ast saic com apr22 almserv uucp date fri apr gmt lines in article apr22 almserv uucp e3ucja fnma com chris allen writes in article ast saic com sac asdi saic com steve conroy x6172 writes major league baseball is trying to expand its appeal to people with shorter attention spans the football crowd invariably all the arguments from people who don like to watch baseball on say the same thing the games are too long and too boring baseball is trying to find way to shorten the games for wider appeal if you look at it though baseball games last around the same amount of time as football games the difference is that there is more action in that duration in football games perhaps if there were more action in baseball games you would get more of those fans to tune in anyway coming up with solution to make baseball more appealing to bigger crowd is going to be difficult on soapbox yet another reason to get commisioner now since it obvious that ruling baseball by comittee works about as fast as snail race in nebraska off soapbox how can you say there is more action in football then baseball football game consists of approximately plays and the average duration of play is around seconds this means that in game that lasts approximately hours you have about minute of action in baseball game you have upwards of two hundred pitches there are very few on field strategy on field stratgy sessions ie huddles and you always have chance to win until the last out is made ah but the illusion in football is that there is always lots of action and sense of urgency because of the game clock not all the time but it happens when there less than minutes to go quite often this sense creates drama even when there may not necessarily be any and that holds viewer attention in baseball only players are involved in the action for about here comes wild guess of the time and they re just playing sophisticated game of catch hold the ball step out of the box adjust chains touch self in interesting locations there lot of dead time with the players warming up between innings or the manager visiting the pitcher at the mound or the manager removing the pitcher and bringing in relief pitcher who then takes pitches or helen dell playing the organ dodger fans will appreciate that one to the non baseball junkie this is boring at any rate not putting baseball down for this ve been an avid fan since can remember it just that watching baseball game on at home can be tedious for the non baseball junkie that what major league baseball and the networks are trying to address when they talk of shortening the game it because of not because football has more action than baseball steve conroy conroy terminus saic com gone man solid gone science applications baloo international corporation path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet gossip pyramid com olivea apple com apple com not for mail from chuq apple com chuq von rospach newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re why is barry bonds not batting th date apr organization go sharks go giants inc lines message id r93di car apple com references r2mek hlq menudo uh edu apr21 leland stanford edu r6l7n oin apple com apr22 leland stanford edu nntp posting host apple com punjabi leland stanford edu sanjeev punjabi writes some evidence that is not working take look at the standings it real easy to get so focussed on minutinae and forget that the giants happen to be in first place if it working you don screw it up by changing things just because you think it ought to be different some folks like to argue about theoretical details prefer to watch teams win when the giants slip to third then we can talk about how to re arrange the batting order until then think it stupid to focus on what wrong for the simple fact that it working as it is does the mailing list maintainer think that will clark is the best first baseman in the majors and that matt williams is better power hitter than any other ballplayer in the majors don follow al so won comment on majors in the nl if had my choice of any in the league for my team it be clark and hit him third my fantasy team has both grace and murray on it because ve never been able to get clark take any of the three without hesitation in real life but think clark is it williams not even close much prefer his defense but when he isn headcasing it matt has good solid swing and some real punch if he drops to then he wanders out of cleanup but according to the latest baseball weekly he hitting and in the last week hitting that not exactly chopped liver mostly though the giants are winning and frankly as long as that continues it rather silly to second guess their strategy but evidently some folks would rather be right than be first chuq imho von rospach esd support training dal aux chuq apple com member sfwa editor otherrealms genie mac bigot alink chuq minor league fans minors request medraut apple com san jose giants san francisco giants fans giants request medraut apple com the stick not san jose sharks fans sharks request medraut apple com new seat tbd newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu uunet mnemosyne cs du edu nyx gspira from gspira nyx cs du edu greg spira subject re obp hurt by sac flies was re hbp bb big cat message id apr23 mnemosyne cs du edu sender usenet mnemosyne cs du edu netnews admin account organization university of denver dept of math comp sci references apr21 cs cornell edu apr22 leland stanford edu apr23 mnemosyne cs du edu apr23 rigel econ uga edu date fri apr gmt lines scottm helena stat uga edu scott mclure writes in article apr23 mnemosyne cs du edu gspira nyx cs du edu greg spira writes paladin leland stanford edu jason gische writes in article apr21 cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes think sac flies are the only way obp can be below ba does this seem dumb to anyone else the fact not the comment why should batter obp be hurt by sac fly especially if sac bunts don have the same effect since they do the same thing but sac flies usually score run while bunts just advance base but both of these situations involve the batter giving up an ab for the benefit of the team sacrifice so why should it hurt their stats the sac bunt is purposeful act ordered by the manager the batter does not go up trying to get sac fly and the evidence available indicates that there is no such ability players can will themselves to hit sac flies they fly out to the same place just as often when there nobody on third greg sorry gotta disagree here last time played ball went up on several occasions intending to hit fly ball deep enough to score the runner from third or advance runner to third it relatively easy actually you swing under the path of the ball you normally would to hit good line drive with fastballs it very easy much more difficult with good breaking balls good hitter with excellent bat control can voluntarily hit fly balls to the outfield at least oh of the time you haven been facing major league pitching maybe more you have to be good at the plate and most of those guys are just as likely to opt for getting the base hit and helping their average as getting the sacrifice the best example know of is jerry willard in the series against minnesota all he had to do was put one in the of and the game was over he swung waaaaaay past parallel and accomplished barely getting the run in safely stats did little study in the scoreboard book entitled can you hit sacrifice flies on purpose summary of the findings over the year period sac fly type fly balls were produced percent of the time in situations where sac fly was useful and percent of the time when sac fly wasn useful they looked at the leaders in sac flies and found that the leaders in sac flies in other words the guys you would expect to be good at it it hit sac fly type fly balls only more often when they needed to difference way too small to be the result of skill essentially the players who hit lot of sac flies seem to do so because they hit hit sac fly type flies often with and without runner on third stats concludes so it appears conclusive that hitters cannot hit sacrifice flies on purpose even if they practice in the batting cage greg newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu utnut torn newshub ccs yorku ca newshub ariel yorku ca cs902060 from cs902060 ariel yorku ca geoffrey dias subject how does pitcher get save message id apr23 newshub ariel yorku ca sender news newshub ariel yorku ca usenet news system organization york university toronto canada date fri apr gmt lines the subject line says it all what is the rule that qualifies pitcher as making save path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu utnut torn nott ehd hwc ca not for mail from mgoddard ehd hwc ca michael goddard newsgroups rec sport baseball subject looking for strategic boardgame for baseball date apr organization health and welfare canada lines message id r955qinnm61 ehd hwc ca nntp posting host ehd hwc ca newsreader tin version pl8 last year my nine year old son fell in love with baseball and now likes to play and to follow the professionals would like to buy him board game so he can catch glimpse of and practise little of the managerial stragegy am not looking for computer game or any type of game where manual dexterity determines the winner am after something that he and his friends can spread out over table on rainy day and spend some thoughtful time over would appreciate the names of any recommended games don follow this newsgroup so mail responses would be ideal michael mgoddard ehd hwc ca michael goddard fax b9 environmental health centre tunney pasture ottawa canada k1a l2 mgoddard ehd hwc ca michael goddard fax b9 environmental health centre tunney pasture ottawa canada k1a l2 newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com emory news feed peachnet edu umn edu sctc com macomber from macomber sctc com chuck macomber subject twins update message id apr23 sctc com organization sctc date fri apr gmt lines twins update posted april the twins defeated the milwaukee brewers today to conclude three game homestand with the brew crew the twins took two of three games in the series with scores as follows tuesday april th mn mil winning pitcher banks wednesday april st mil mn lp hartley thursday april nd mn mil wp deshaies sa aguilera highlight low lights of the series jim deshaies continues to be the surprise of not only the twins but of the american league as well going into today game deshaies was with era deshaies allowed earned runs in innings meaning his era will climb slightly deshaies who came to mn via trade with philadelphia which sent david west there continues to make andy macphail look like true genius willie banks has put together two solid starts for the twins going innings on monday while coasting on solid twins hitting deshaies and banks now combine for of the twins eight victories while tapani mahomes erickson are wednesday game marked the first opposing left handed starting pitcher for the twins this year rickey bones the twins teed off against both him and subsequent relief including grand slam by kent hrbek which pushed the lead to the twins pitching staff could not hold the lead though allowing walks in the th inning of which scored and coming with bases loaded tapani gave up one walk before being relieved guthrie two walks and mike hartley one walk before the inning was over this tied the game at and the brew crew rocked mike hartley for runs in the top of the tenth to win it aguilera continues to be shaky against the brew crew of career blown saves have come against the brew crew and today game was shaky as well coming into the ninth with lead aguilera gave up solo hr to vaughn then hits to darryl hamilton and dickie thon before finally retiring the side once again the tying run made it to second base on aggie weak hearted twins fans are advised not to watch aggie in the ninth general news pedro munoz continues to improve as an outfielder playing in left field on tuesday game he continues to bat weakly against right handed pitching though which has limited his playing time gene larkin and jt bruett former gopher have been playing right field as both can bat left handed the twins begin three game series with the detroit tigers tomorrow starting pitching is tentatively scheduled as erickson mahomes banks the detroit tigers have had two run games in the last ten days and should provide quite challenge to the young mn pitching staff the twins have hr this year three each from puckett hrbek and winfield the third fourth and fifth batters respectively brian harper pegged of the first baserunners attempting to steal second this year and shows much improvement in this category jim deshaies has three pick offs and one balk this year some say he has the best st base move in baseball this move has enabled him to pitch out of some tight early jams and has certainly contributed to his start watch to see if umpiring crews began calling the balk more tightly in response to opposing team complaints about his leg kicking behind the rubber on the pick off move current mlb al west standings from joesph hernandez jtchern ocb berkeley edu american west won lost pct gb last streak home road california angels won texas rangers lost minnesota twins lost chicago white sox won seattle mariners won oakland athletics lost kansas city royals won path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet haven umd edu cs umd edu dtix dt navy mil oasys kilpat from kilpat oasys dt navy mil andrew kilpatrick newsgroups rec sport baseball subject want allstar tickets message id oasys dt navy mil date apr gmt reply to kilpat oasys dt navy mil andrew kilpatrick distribution usa organization carderock division nswc bethesda md lines want all star tickets does anyone know how can get some are they for public sale or are they sold out or do you just have to work for company with some anyway any answers would be appreciated please mail me thanks andrew newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net agate dog ee lbl gov newshub nosc mil vela acs oakland edu cs uiuc edu pegasus cs uiuc edu steph from steph pegasus cs uiuc edu dale stephenson subject re hits stolen first base message id steph pegasus cs uiuc edu keywords stats sender news cs uiuc edu organization university of illinois dept of comp sci urbana il references steph pegasus cs uiuc edu r218pinnh4a gap caltech edu distribution all date wed apr gmt lines in r218pinnh4a gap caltech edu jeff smoggy gg caltech edu jeff goldsmith writes in steph pegasus cs uiuc edu steph pegasus cs uiuc edu dale stephenson writes finally throw all this into formula call defensive contribution or dcon you did mean defcon didn you well no although admit that more exciting than rat killer dale stephenson steph cs uiuc edu baseball fanatic it is considered good to look wise especially when not overburdened with information golden kimball newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech purdue yuma lamar timothy from timothy lamar colostate edu timothy cree subject re why is barry bonds not batting th sender news yuma acns colostate edu news account message id apr23 yuma acns colostate edu date fri apr gmt references r2mek hlq menudo uh edu c5uvew hgk odin corp sgi com apr22 hpcvaac cv hp com nntp posting host lamar acns colostate edu organization colorado state university fort collins co lines in article apr22 hpcvaac cv hp com paula koufax cv hp com paul andresen writes in article apr21 leland stanford edu punjabi leland stanford edu sanjeev punjabi writes having bonds batting behind williams means that matt will get more good pitches to hit this is important since he struggles so much with breaking balls opposing pitchers don want to walk williams to get to bonds have to wonder if this good hitter behind you argument is really valid has anyone done study on this paula koufax cv hp com paul andresen hewlett packard you want study look at matt williams the year after mitchell was gone look no further not scientific study but it ll show the truth for matt besides bonds wants to bat th tim if you want an actual analysis of batting order look up analysis of baseball batting order by monte carlo simulation by freeze journal of the operations research scoiety of america no path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu pitt edu gatech howland reston ans net agate news ucdavis edu dale ucdavis edu ez027993 from ez027993 dale ucdavis edu gary built like villanueva huckabay newsgroups rec sport baseball subject warning to homeowners low flying aircraft and astronomers message id c5y3td h7q ucdavis edu date apr gmt sender usenet ucdavis edu news administrator organization pitchers who can throw strikes limited wakefield division lines oakland california sunday april th pm pdt jose mesa vs storm davis you have been warned gary huckabay outside that was right down the bleedin pipe balder than any kenny realize don have great control but dave on the net mon gary that was styrofoam cup the really plate foot to your right throw the ball newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com caen batcomputer cornell tedward from tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer subject re why is barry bonds not batting th message id apr23 cs cornell edu organization cornell univ cs dept ithaca ny references r6l7n oin apple com apr22 leland stanford edu r93di car apple com date fri apr gmt lines in article r93di car apple com chuq apple com chuq von rospach writes some folks like to argue about theoretical details prefer to watch teams win when the giants slip to third then we can talk about how to re arrange the batting order until then think it stupid to focus on what wrong for the simple fact that it working as it is this is fine strategy if you expect to run away with the division but the giants are going to need every break they can get if they want too hold that lead don think they can afford to be lackadaisical and say well it has worked pretty well so far and while we might be able to improve the results we don think it is worth the risk mostly though the giants are winning and frankly as long as that continues it rather silly to second guess their strategy but evidently some folks would rather be right than be first the two tend to go hand in hand cheers valentine newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech purdue mentor cc purdue edu sage cc purdue edu talavage from talavage sage cc purdue edu tom talavage subject re ny mets trivia question message id c5y33s hk mentor cc purdue edu sender news mentor cc purdue edu usenet news organization purdue university computing center references news duke edu apr23 e2big mko dec com distribution na date fri apr gmt lines in article apr23 e2big mko dec com francus e2big mko dec com yoseff francus writes in article news duke edu simon hercules acpub duke edu writes name three ex met pitchers that have lost to every team in the majors except colorado and florida which two also defeated every team in the majors dan nolan ryan qualifies on both counts would guess that viola is the other one who has beaten and also lost to every team in the majors viola has only played in the nl with the mets not possible for him to have defeated or lost to every team ditto for tanana who was mentioned in previous post the rd pitcher to lose to every team is probably tom seaver but it could be koosman don remember if seaver managed to get win against the white sox in his brief sojourn with boston so say the other pitcher to defeat every team is either mike torrez he bounced around enough for long enough period of time or koosman as mentioned would also guess that if one of these two did not manage to beat every team he did manage to lose to every team tom thomas talavage purdue university electrical engineering grad student grad school the greatest time of one life where they pay you to do what you have spent the last years becoming good at path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net transfer stratus com sw stratus com rbp from rbp sw stratus com russell peterson newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re john wetteland derek lilliquist info please date apr gmt organization stratus computer inc lines distribution world message id r96ol vl transfer stratus com references r3ud6innifd flop engr orst edu gjd3b1w165w micor ocunix on ca apr23 jarvis csri toronto edu nntp posting host paradise sw stratus com with all the recent problems the indians have been having with their pitching staff have heard numerous names thrown around about who could solve their problem one name have not heard is mike soper rp as far as know soper has had pretty good minor league stats why not give the kid chance anyone know anything about this guy russell peterson everyone believes in something rbp sw stratus com believe ll have another beer path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu csd4 csd uwm edu paul from paul csd4 csd uwm edu paul krueger newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re twins update date apr gmt organization computing services division university of wisconsin milwaukee lines message id r97lcinngui uwm edu references apr23 sctc com nntp posting host in article apr23 sctc com macomber sctc com chuck macomber writes wednesday game marked the first opposing left handed starting pitcher for the twins this year rickey bones nice post chuck but you made just one mistake bones is right handed pitcher however hrbek grand slam came off graehme lloyd lefty salty newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu news cso uiuc edu uxa cso uiuc edu rap50204 from rap50204 uxa cso uiuc edu underdog subject southpaw date fri apr gmt message id c5y47u ij news cso uiuc edu sender usenet news cso uiuc edu net noise owner organization university of illinois at urbana lines can anyone out there tell me why they call left handed pitchers southpaw also the story on how the term originated thanks go cubs prediction they will finish over this year without winning the east path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech wittsend gisatl deitch from deitch gisatl fidonet org david deitch newsgroups rec sport baseball subject baseball in spanish message id bd630af gisatl fidonet org date wed apr edt organization galaxy information system gis atlanta ga lines dateline tue apr93 in antonio pera of icop csa bu edu wrote to all at ap recently heard the red sox on wrol ap spanish speaking radio station thought it was so ap unreal the red sox in spanish anyway want to find ap out how widespread this is being ny native know ap the scmets are on in spanish but not the yankmes ap wuold think that la sd texas and fla are on in spanish ap are there any spanish speaking networks or is this ap local for the last couple of years the braves have been fostering program to reach to the latin american audience this has included licensing spanish fan magazines encouraging spanish co broadcasts and marketing programs directed at the latin american community one of the biggest heros to the latin american audience has been francisco cabrerra fact of which he was slightly embarrassed one funny story is that during spring training the braves played game in mexico this game was broadcast back to atlanta in spanish it took the broadcasters few innings to get rythm going because they had to keep changing their location seems it took while to find place where they could get clear signal on their cellular phones through which they were calling the game david deitch gis atlanta fidonet uucp uucp wittsend gisatl deitch gateway faq oo internet deitch gisatl fidonet org david deitch galaxy information system administrator gis atlanta user david deitch fido via fidonet node jm newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net europa eng gtefsd com news ans net newsgate watson ibm com yktnews watson ibm com hawnews watson ibm com fenway mjones from mjones fenway aix kingston ibm com mike jones subject re yankee thoughts sender news hawnews watson ibm com nntp news poster message id mjones fenway date fri apr gmt reply to mjones donald aix kingston ibm com disclaimer this posting represents the poster views not necessarily those of ibm references apr20 clam com apr22 asd com nntp posting host fenway aix kingston ibm com organization ibm aix esa development kingston ny lines scott asd com scott barman writes in article apr20 clam com sam steamer clam com sam mandelbaum writes wade boggs live in boston and like wade lot but his career is winding down and would rather see the yanks start to develop long term solution hensley muelins russ davis velarde besides wade just doesn have any range what shame about charlie hayes huh who would you have playing wade boggs or charlie hayes my choice is boggs no contest it will give them time to develop younger talent in an area the yankee farm system seems to be deficient hem two words russell davis playing in the cavern at albany aa last year down the alleys and to center davis went with homers there aren any small parks on the road in the eastern league either he and his mle was hr have no fielding statistics but from seeing him number of times last year say that he not brooks robinson but neither is he howard johnson unless they think they can win the pennant this year which seems possible and need boggs to do it think they re making the same sort of mistake with davis that boston made with boggs leaving him in the minors for two or three years after he shown that he was good hitter spike owen see wade boggs much rather see them develop dave silvestri or whoever wade and spike next to each other in the infield is going to raise the yankee staff era point and these guys are on the down sides of their careers too bad they gave up on randy valarde too many trips on the columbus shuttle hrm they still have him on the roster ab through the first two weeks they ve just never figured out what to do with him suspect that he hits enough especially vs lefties to be reasonable shortstop one rumor running around during spring training was that they wanted to convert silvestri to be catcher because his body type was wrong for shortstop you think that somebody in the same division who plays baltimore about dozen times year would know better mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com if one of our guys went down just doubled it no confusion there it didn require rhodes scholar if two of my teammates went down four of yours would had to protect my guys don drysdale path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu husc news harvard edu zariski grabiner newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re apology for article message id grabiner apr23112924 germain harvard edu from grabiner math harvard edu david grabiner date apr edt references apr21 tesla njit edu c5w7zo xl eskimo com organization etc organization nntp posting host germain harvard edu in reply to stevet eskimo com message of apr gmt lines in article c5w7zo xl eskimo com steven thornton writes in article apr21 tesla njit edu drm6640 tesla njit edu writes just watch me mattingly is below average fielder before you start up yes have proof there are really only two adequate ways to measure fielding prowess the first which has the advantage of being applicable to older players since it uses raw data available for almost all of mlb history is the total chances per game method favored by the total baseball people among others it basically says that you measure fielder by how many balls he gets to but it is subject to all kinds of bias and is almost completely useless for first basemen from the raw stats there is no way to tell which of first baseman putouts were made on throws from other fielders and which were made on his own plays likewise you can tell whether double play was or fielding runs thus gives first baseman no credit for putouts or double plays only for assists and errors it thus favors first basemen who play deep reaching lot of balls but forcing the pitcher to cover first more frequently it also hurts first baseman who play behind left handed pitching staffs and thus face few left handed batters better method but newer and based ondata that has only been collected over the last few years measures the percentage of balls hit into the part of the field the guy is responsible for this is better of course it still isn all of first baseman defense some references mattingly defensive rating stats method from mike gimbel baseball player and team ratings defensive average which uses larger and probably better zones has mattingly tied for second in the league on the other hand he has contributed runs by his batting actions pretty healthy number while batting runs is good it is mostly in the past the runs he produced in don say much about his value in david grabiner grabiner zariski harvard edu we are sorry but the number you have dialed is imaginary please rotate your phone degrees and try again disclaimer speak for no one and no one speaks for me path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu husc news harvard edu zariski grabiner newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re bases loaded walk gives reds win in redreport message id grabiner apr23115329 germain harvard edu from grabiner math harvard edu david grabiner date apr edt references c5vhlh idz usenet ucs indiana edu mssc5w795 g4 netcom com organization etc organization nntp posting host germain harvard edu in reply to mss netcom com message of thu apr gmt lines in article mssc5w795 g4 netcom com mark singer writes in article c5vhlh idz usenet ucs indiana edu rstimets silver ucs indiana edu robert and stimets writes in game that saw little of everything incredible defense some power clutch pitching and little wildness the reds managed to overcome their trademark lack of timely hitting in crucial situations during spring training made similarly innoncent looking comment about clutch hitting on this bb and the flames were flying no such thing as clutch hitting they the sdcn all screamed assumed they also meant there was no such thing as any kind of clutch performance given their comments this is certainly not the case there is no significant ability toi perform in the clutch but clutch performance certainly happens every time there is game winning hit the clutch pitching quoted above is something which happened not claim that any particular player should be expected to be clutch pitcher over the past four seasons sabo has had hits in abs defined as clutch situations by the scouting report for an average of over that same period he had another abs with hits for an average of according to the rest of the sdcn any differential such as this is completely and totally random and cannot be used for any reasonable inference such as perhaps perez should have used pinch hitter in that situation simple statistics tell me that there is chance an average clutch hitter would have this large split the average decrease is points standard deviation about there will be such hitters in any league just as there will be hitters who hit poorly on tuesdays and there is only very weak correlation in my best study between clutch hitting in the last four years and clutch hitting this year probably because most of the clutch data is determinaed by luck rather than any ability based only on this data don see any reason to pinch hit for sabo or any other player who had been poor clutch hitter in the past but there are many other factors involved in decision to pinch hit does the pinch hitter give you platoon advantage any portion of sabo clutch split that results from his platoon split is certainly real ability even if it has nothing to do with clutch hitting do you have singles hitter at the plate when you need home run do you have curveball pitcher facing batter who has trouble with curves david grabiner grabiner zariski harvard edu we are sorry but the number you have dialed is imaginary please rotate your phone degrees and try again disclaimer speak for no one and no one speaks for me path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu husc news harvard edu zariski grabiner newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re mvp revisited message id grabiner apr23121411 germain harvard edu from grabiner math harvard edu david grabiner date apr edt references r141n a32 agate berkeley edu blue cis pitt edu apr22 island com blue cis pitt edu r6hf4innc16 gap caltech edu organization etc organization nntp posting host germain harvard edu in reply to shippert cco caltech edu message of apr gmt lines in article r6hf4innc16 gap caltech edu tim shippert writes ideally dhs should be the strongest offensive players because any schmoe can play dh if he can hit that would take care of position corrected anomolies such as frank since that is not the case and why not is it always this way then we are going to have trouble finding the true value of dhs using the same models as that for position players there are several reasons for this difference the main reason is that good hitters in their prime such as frank thomas and danny tartabull are rarely regular dh even if they can field it more commonly place to put aging veterans another use of the dh slot is to help player come back from injury slowly getting his bat in the lineup without forcing him to play in the field would expect such players to hit worse as dh than they did during the rest of the season third factor is that most player who split time between dh and first or the outfield don hit as well as dh for some reason reggie jackson was good example in five years as rf dh for the angels he hit like the old reggie when he was in right the second and third factors will be lost if players are considered by their primary position only player who plays games in right and at dh will count only in the right fielders averages logical starting place would be to look at defensive replacement value if you can find it for or lf or something we can assume that if forced to play defense they would play at true zero value even though doubt this is actually true for players like winfield and molitor this would let us discount the time they spend playing dh because that forces the team to find another real fielder to play this makes sense you might also look at it another way although the average offensive performance of dh may be lower than for left fielder the replacement level offensive performance is certainly lower if you are left fielder but can hit well enough to keep job anywhere then you certainly can hit well enough to keep job at dh david grabiner grabiner zariski harvard edu we are sorry but the number you have dialed is imaginary please rotate your phone degrees and try again disclaimer speak for no one and no one speaks for me newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net agate news ucdavis edu csus edu netcom com mss from mss netcom com mark singer subject re bases loaded walk gives reds win in message id mssc5y41d netcom com organization netcom online communications services login guest references apr22 pts mot com mssc5xb3i cg netcom com apr23 cs cornell edu date fri apr gmt lines in article apr23 cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes in article mssc5xb3i cg netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes sigh here we go again actually several scdn stated that there were no definable skills that would make hitter more likely to perform better in clutch situations vs non clutch situations however one might choose to define clutch right can you define such skill must if were to say that batting average is predictor that can be used to judge which of two hitters is more likely to get hit on particular plate appearance is that only valid if can define the skill in hitting baseball that all ve said except used the smaller sample of batting average in clutch situations and elsewhere on this thread sherri nichols repeats her position that batting average in clutch situations is meaningless statistic for predicting the future it has been entirely meaningless at least if it has meaning we don know how to find it did not say could predict the future ve suggested that the statistic is not necessarily meaningless here the data for this situation non clutch clutch ab ba ab ba sabo samuel if you were to have been the reds manager at that time assume you would have had some basis for letting sabo hit rather than pinch hitting samuel sure some of that basis would have utilized prior performance you just wouldn have used this particular aspect of prior performance is this not correct ll try to avoid being insulting but it difficult when you so cavalierly dismiss hundreds of hours of work with an don pretend to understand but nobody is denying that there are people who have hit well in the clutch in the past but challenge you to find method to predict who will hit well in the clutch in the future which after all is what you are claiming you can do since one more time did not claim to be able to predict the future said that accept the above data as an indication that samuel would have had better chance for success in that situation than sabo and am not dismissing your work stating my opinion you are saying that your work renders any opinion to the contrary invalid so that the retention of that opinion is some kind of insult to your work fine we have plenty of data obviously our preconceived biases must be coloring our work since you know clutch hitting is well defined and consistent skill all of our failures not withstanding so challenge you to prove it guarantee you that if you can prove the existance of some form of clutch ability you will have plenty of happy sdcns dancing around you did not say that clutch hitting is well defined said that the data is significant to me did not say that it is consistent skill have said that it is an indicator of performance under certain set of circumstances but you aren going to win any support by merely stating position and claiming they are stupid so must be right and big sigh have not not not not not not not ever called you or anyone else on stupid it is nice however to see that you will consider the possibility that you actually could have some preconceived biases yeah hindsight is always doesn that make you bright this is stupid argument and you know it ah knew we could get to the name calling and there that word you like so much suggestion take data from and attempt to come up with some method that predicts who hit well in the clutch in if that works we can then attempt to apply it to and beyond wait minute thought first had to define clutch hitting do or don you have made strong statements now back them up or be proven total idiot made two statements in my post am not convinced of your conclusions regarding clutch hitting would have hit for sabo as for many of us make number of written statements through this media about what we think will happen in baseball not shy about it ll make the statement again believe that by season end that chris sabo batting average in clutch situations will be significantly lower than his batting average in non clutch situations can prove that it will happen so guess we ll just have to wait and see here another one for you in joe carter batting average in clutch situations was significantly below his batting average in non clutch situations each year presume you think this is random non clutch ab clutch ab so what could we expect in from mr carter well his composite ba through was through was through was so think we have pretty good idea of what kind of batting average he can produce in he hit not surprising huh also in non clutch ab clutch ab no this doesn prove any overall statistical trend that can be used to predict future performance across the breadth of major league ballplayers it just makes me think that in joe carter batting average in the clutch is not going to be as high as his ba in non clutch situations as for above have plenty of company john dewan of stats inc is the editor of the scouting report wherein the statistics regarding clutch hitting are compiled reported and referenced in the text bill james makes numerous references to player ability to hit well in the clutch am not saying that can predict the future any more than they are you and others are saying that your work renders their statements and mine meaningless don accept that which in your words proves that am total idiot stupid total idiot my my such hostility the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu caen batcomputer cornell uw beaver barring from barring cs washington edu david barrington subject mea culpa bosio no no message id apr23 beaver cs washington edu sender news beaver cs washington edu usenet news system organization computer science engineering of washington seattle date fri apr gmt lines like clinton and reno accept full responsibility for this senseless disaster my wife and picked this game to go to and thus caused the return of the pre season projected sox offense like all no no bosio was good lucky hard grounder by vaughn off martinez glove but straight to boone who threw to bosio at first and backed by good defense many non trivial groundouts the game was amazingly fast as the sox tended to go down quickly and hesketh was also working fast the sox relief pitching was ok the runs off quantrill were on two ridiculous bloops and hard line single which greenwell let get past him trying for catch greenwell mental stability is serious concern guess it has always been but his quirks were amusing back when he was an mvp candidate wednesday he got in huff with johnson after striking out on bad inside pitch apparently johnson made an ok ve got to stay focused gesture which iron mike interpreted as taunting and struck out to heavy booing the next two times as valentine noted last night he came up in the first after riles and quintana had walked to open the game can you say take the first pitch not mike who dribbled it into the pi quoted bosio that this was batting practice fastball next time up he also hit the first pitch hard liner straight to kgjr in center he also made the pathetic error and failed to catch boone hr which looked comparable to the ball lance johnson caught on the highlight reel that night is riles suppsoed to be good defensively couldn tell from the field angle but his range looked bad and he coughed dp that cost run or two why was he leadoff hope fletcher gets well soon also on lineups pinella put bret boone fifth for reasons beyond me it seemed to work as he was with hr and some good defense wag behind us said he sure don want to go back to calgary there is theory that you put leadoff type fifth because they ll likely lead off the second as boone did well now we face the hot angels and another power pitcher in langston reminder that contest entries are open through next wednesday expect surge of pessimism by the way ties will be broken by earliest entry one entry per person or pseudonym please and easy on the pseudonyms dave mb newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech psuvax1 news cc swarthmore edu mac8 beardsley swarthmore edu user from wall cc swarthmore edu matthew wall subject re mlb message id wall mac8 beardsley swarthmore edu followup to rec sport baseball sender news cc swarthmore edu usenet news system nntp posting host mac8 beardsley swarthmore edu organization hi matt and boston red sox fan references cvbnetprime com distribution usa date fri apr gmt lines in article cvbnetprime com cvalcour ptex prime com sorry missed the posting wrote could some kind soul please email me copy of mlb thanks chris cvalcour ptex prime com mlb is archived on the internet baseball archive anoymous ftp to eucalyptus cc swarthmore edu you must use your full email username id as password cd baseball schedules it filed as mlb schedule program for clarity schedules pre generated for east coast times are there as text files as well and couple of teams tv schedules please send me more tv info if you have it on other teams matt matt wall wall cc swarthmore edu hey gotta job here ok april boston red sox seize first place newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech psuvax1 news cc swarthmore edu mac8 beardsley swarthmore edu user from wall cc swarthmore edu matthew wall subject re nicknaming frank bolick message id wall mac8 beardsley swarthmore edu followup to rec sport baseball sender news cc swarthmore edu usenet news system nntp posting host mac8 beardsley swarthmore edu organization hi matt and boston red sox fan references c5jqby m7a news rich bnr ca qs8pn zippy telcom arizona edu qu564inn9ti lynx unm edu hydra gatech edu distribution usa date fri apr gmt lines in article hydra gatech edu gt0523e prism gatech edu michael andre mule wrote in article qu564inn9ti lynx unm edu kbos carina unm edu mitchell bose writes in article qs8pn zippy telcom arizona edu r4938585 joplin biosci arizona edu doug roberts writes doug roberts willing to trade frank bolick for bag of used baseballs let go expos one fun note from the rockies home opener think frank bolick nickname should be sarge because whenever we saw his name in denver for the expo series there was big e5 next to it in the spirit of chris berman how about frank cerial bolick ho ho ha ha how about frank jacksonsuck bolick or frank cake icing bolick or frank it not cow but bolick or frank how do you get ribbon to stay on birthday present bolick or frank burns bolick or frank lee bad player bolick or frank suck not bolick and so on matt wall wall cc swarthmore edu hey gotta job here ok april boston red sox seize first place newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech paladin american edu howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu bme ri ccf org satchmo tknuth from tknuth bio ri ccf org todd knuth subject re southpaw message id apr23 bme ri ccf org sender usenet bme ri ccf org nntp posting host satchmo bio ri ccf org reply to tknuth bio ri ccf org organization the cleveland clinic foundation references c5y47u ij news cso uiuc edu date fri apr gmt lines in article ij news cso uiuc edu rap50204 uxa cso uiuc edu underdog writes can anyone out there tell me why they call left handed pitchers dont know about the story but it comes from the fact that in most stadiums the batter faces northeast and so when pitcher is on the mound his left arm is to the south hence the term southpaw also the story on how the term originated thanks go cubs prediction they will finish over this year without winning the east newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net news ans net newsgate watson ibm com hawnews watson ibm com fenway mjones from mjones fenway aix kingston ibm com mike jones subject re sbs hrs sender news hawnews watson ibm com nntp news poster message id mjones fenway date fri apr gmt reply to mjones donald aix kingston ibm com disclaimer this posting represents the poster views not necessarily those of ibm references c5ws3k hqc odin corp sgi com nntp posting host fenway aix kingston ibm com organization ibm aix esa development kingston ny lines dans fore csd sgi com dan steinman writes last night on the giants mets radio broadcast hank and ted were discussing the fact that there were only players who had ever hit homeruns and stolen bases in their career while hojo was batting anyone have list not as easy as it sounds to come up with all of them couldn mays mantle aaron henderson morgan bonds dad frank robinson molitor yount guessing now be interested to see the whole list first please watch your line lengths not everyone has autowrap second franklin to the rescue here the list player hr sb aaron mays frobinson rjackson winfield dawson baylor bobonds wynn strawberry morgan pinson yount kgibson sandberg players marked with an are still active numbers through that only the th is probably rickey henderson who was listed at hr sb or george brett listed as sb hr the surprises probably reggie bayor and wynn for steals maybe morgan to lot of people for homers was kind of surprised to realize that sandberg has that many steals though wasn surprised that the number was mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com dreams are real while they last can we say more of life havelock ellis path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu pitt edu dtate from dtate pitt edu david tate newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re winfield spot on the all time greats team message id blue cis pitt edu date apr gmt references sdcc12 ucsd edu blue cis pitt edu c5wewd kto murdoch acc virginia edu sender news pitt edu organization department of industrial engineering lines in article c5wewd kto murdoch acc virginia edu drw3l delmarva evsc virginia edu david robert walker writes in article blue cis pitt edu dtate pitt edu david tate writes winfield can touch frank robinson or mel ott as far as can tell you also have hard time convincing me to rate him better than or equal to clemente two sets of numbers career equivalent average and equivalent runs ruth aaron ott robinson clemente winfield ruth is in class by himself for both rate eqa and total eqr performance aaron runs over everybody in the total category ott and robinson who lead winfield in both categories could be safely put ahead of ahead of him reggie too although he is barely ahead these numbers are normalized for league and park clemente is held down by some really anemic offensive production in his earliest years and was still productive when he died it is reasonably safe to assume he had runs more he could have gotten still jackson waner clemente and winfield form pretty tight knot yes but we were talking about peak level not career averages and clemente was the best fielding rf of all time as far as anyone can tell did quick scan last night looking for players with peak comparable to or better than winfield in my quick dirty subjective judgement you could make good cases for ruth aaron ott robinson clemente kaline maris klein jackson waner and probably few others this is not knock on winfield but comment on his consistency all of those other players had awesome stretches and very good stretches while winfield has been more uniformly excellent hall of fame absolutely top peak not so sure top total career value yes almost certainly david tate my free agent says he will be no one but mine dtate pitt edu not even should steinbrenner himself try to seduce him prof of story probs he says but what player says to owner the big catullus write it on the wind or swift running water path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu sol ctr columbia edu eff news kei com ub newserve sarah cscnews pb6755 from pb6755 csc albany edu brown philip newsgroups rec sport baseball subject bosio no hitter message id pb6755 apr23124316 thor albany edu date apr gmt sender news sarah albany edu news administrator organization state university of new york at albany lines watched the final inning of bosio no hitter with several people at work after vizquel made that barehanded grab of the chopper up the middle someone remarked that if he had fielded it with his glove he wouldn have had time to throw riles out yet the throw beat riles by about two steps wonder how many others who watched the final out think vizquel had no choice but to make the play with his bare hand does anybody think vizquel was wrong to field the ball barehanded and if he failed to field it cleanly would it or should it have been an error or hit judging from bosio grimace when the ball bounced past him he must have thought it would go through for hit whether vizquel was right or wrong he certainly made one hell of play phil brown aka pb6755 csc albany edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net noc near net transfer stratus com usenet from jmann vineland pubs stratus com jim mann newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re apology for article date apr gmt organization stratus computer inc marlboro ma lines message id r99un au8 transfer stratus com references grabiner apr23112924 germain harvard edu reply to jmann vineland pubs stratus com nntp posting host gondolin pubs stratus com in article grabiner apr23112924 germain harvard edu writes but it is subject to all kinds of bias and is almost completely useless for first basemen from the raw stats there is no way to tell which of first baseman putouts were made on throws from other fielders and which were made on his own plays likewise you can tell whether double play was or fielding runs thus gives first baseman no credit for putouts or double plays only for assists and errors but ingnoring putouts is biased in yet another way range is not the only thing that makes good firstbaseman the ability to field all sorts of balls thrown to him digging some out of the dirt stretching for others and so forth is important thus putouts do provide some information maybe what we need is comparision of how many balls were thrown to the area of the first baseman vs how many he actually got jim mann stratus computer jmann vineland pubs stratus com newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu caen usenet cis ufl edu usenet ufl edu cybernet news from smithers cybernet cse fau edu scott smithers subject houston mailing list message id nf1g3b2w165w cybernet cse fau edu sender news cybernet cse fau edu organization cybernet bbs boca raton florida date fri apr gmt lines can anyone mail me the address of houston mailing list thanks in advance scott smithers smithers dcseq uscga edu newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet pilchuck parody dietz from dietz parody data io com kent dietz subject bosox go down in smoke ii seattle message id apr23 data io com sender news data io com the news organization data corporation date fri apr gmt lines oh yea and chris bosio pitched no hitter one over the minimum two bases on ball in the first inning one runner left pitches listened to the game on radio and listening to dave niehaus call the game was real treat as long as they keep ron fairly quite doubt if anyone is better than niehaus but that fairly guy is really annoying me but guess if clemens or viola had been pitching it would have been different story two shutouts in two nights against the hottest best hitting team in major league baseball pretty impressive in any league man if johnson bosio and hanson keep going the mariners could be really interesting team to follow this year also john cummings rookie has had three solid outings with no support if fleming comes back this may be the best starting staff in the american league this year relief is another story though grimace too cool the first no hitter that have been able to follow from start to end and again think niehaus will win some kind of award for the way he called the game the guy is truly joy to listen to he deserves pennant race kent dietz twins in mariners if only they were an nl team follow newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu gatech swrinde sdd hp com col hp com news dtc hp com srgenprp craige from craige sad hp com craig eid subject giants tickets for sale sender news srgenprp sr hp com news administrator message id c5y7pk d0z srgenprp sr hp com date fri apr gmt organization hp sonoma county srsd mwtd mid newsreader tin version pl6 lines season ticket holder and have pair of giants tickets available for every game except opening day they re located in lower reserved section row they re two rows about feet behind the mvp lower box seats that go for apiece selling my tickets for pair here the schedule for the next weeks mail me if you re interested note all times are pacific daylight savings time apr new york pm apr new york pm apr montreal pm may montreal pm may montreal pm may philadelphia pm may philadelphia pm may los angeles pm may los angeles pm may los angeles pm may houston pm may houston pm may houston pm may cincinnati pm may cincinnati pm may cincinnati pm may cincinnati pm june pittsburgh pm june pittsburgh pm june pittsburgh pm june pittsburgh pm june st louis pm june st louis pm june chicago pm june chicago pm june chicago pm june san diego pm june san diego pm june san diego pm june colorado pm june colorado pm june colorado pm june colorado pm craig eid mail address craige hpsad sad hp com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu gatech howland reston ans net newsserver jvnc net rutgers njitgw njit edu tesla njit edu slutsky from slutsky tesla njit edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject professional sports on fm radio message id apr23 tesla njit edu date apr gmt sender news njit edu organization new jersey institute of technology lines nntp posting host tesla am curious to known if there are any professional sports teams whose games are regularly broadcast on an fm station the only one am aware of is wysp in philadelphia who carries the eagles games if you respond to me will summarize for the list bruce slutsky slutsky tesla njit edu newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet world jle from jle world std com joe leonard subject are the orioles phillies at home on mem day wkend message id c5y77h dw world std com organization the world public access unix brookline ma date fri apr gmt lines subject sez it wondering if either team are in town that weekend can probably get phillies tix as the vet can hold bunch and hope they re still in st but it late may and camden yards is problem is there any way of getting in the park an sro ticket any advice if there at home joe leonard jle world std com please reply directly to keep the net down to dull roar newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net agate dog ee lbl gov network ucsd edu news cerf net pagesat olivea charnel rat zeus cymbal calpoly edu jplee from jplee cymbal calpoly edu jason lee subject john franco message id apr23 zeus calpoly edu sender news zeus calpoly edu organization california polytechnic state university san luis obispo date fri apr gmt lines what with john franco the mets are hardly using him heard he was completely recovered but now not so sure if there is anybody out there with information about franco would appreciate it if you could drop me line jason lee jplee oboe calpoly edu jlee cash busfac calpoly edu sf giants pi the most beautiful equation in mathematics magic for all sad words of tongue and pen the saddest are these number it might have been john greenleaf whittier newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu swrinde network ucsd edu news cerf net pagesat olivea sgigate odin luigi from luigi sgi com randy palermo subject re braves offense message id c5y7cj pt odin corp sgi com sender news odin corp sgi com net news nntp posting host bullpen csd sgi com organization silicon graphics inc mountain view ca references apr23 news acns nwu edu date fri apr gmt lines in article apr23 news acns nwu edu rsavage casbah acns nwu edu michael bornhorst writes ve been braves fan for as long as ve been watching baseball almost years now say that just tp preface what about to post this braves team is made up of slow starters people are amazed that the braves aren hitting don be they weren hitting last year at this time nor were they the year before they had slow aprils and mays in the and seasons and yet they still managed to go to the series in those years well this team is no different so why should we be suprised at their slow start they started that way for the past two years and they ll be that way until the richmond club makes it to the majors judge their offense in june or july when things start to average out just happy that the reds have gotten off to such poor start the giants always do well in the early part of the season but they ll be out of the race by july just like the last few years unless bond developes knuckelball their staff will get rocked by mid june wow you really know how to hurt guy guess shouldn bother watching any more games it already been decided luigi randy palermo luigi csd sgi com fax silicon graphics computer systems shoreline blvd mt view ca play an accordion go to jail that the law newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net agate news ucdavis edu csus edu netcom com mss from mss netcom com mark singer subject re bases loaded walk gives reds win in message id mssc5y5u0 dn netcom com organization netcom online communications services login guest references apr22 pts mot com mssc5xb3i cg netcom com c5xwai nu news cso uiuc edu date fri apr gmt lines in article c5xwai nu news cso uiuc edu hbrooks uiatma atmos uiuc edu harold brooks writes in article mssc5xb3i cg netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes don pretend to understand statistical analysis well we agree on the last part cool and thank you for an intelligent response devoid of the silly name calling of others one of the basic things you need to have in statistic to be able to predict player performance on it in the future is for there to be correlation from year to year player batting average is correlated fairly well from year to year ok the basic problems with something like clutch batting average overall batting average is that the correlation from year to year is almost zero adding to the sample size doesn seem to help much actually think the large scale sample size is part of the problem it seems to me that if we were to plot all the players in baseball in regard to ba vs clutch ba deviation we would get some kind of bell curve the axis being the deviation in clutch hitting vs non clutch the axis being the number of players certainly there would be some players on the extreme ends of the bell my supposition is that if we were to find the same players consistently year after year at one end of the bell or the other then we might be able to make some reasonable conclusions about those players as opposed to all baseball players as counterexample to what you showed consider the following two players from non clutch clutch ab ba ab ba maldonado lemon if you had had these two players in by your logic in those clutch situations you bat maldonado for lemon in blink of an eye well in maldonado hit in non clutch and in clutch while lemon hit in non clutch and in clutch before you accuse me of completely cooking the data you won hear those kind of accusations from me it is interesting that you selected maldonado because he is someone whom have also looked at he has been very inconsistent hitter in terms of ba hitting in admittedly he has been traded between leagues as well as clubs his clutch hitting record is equally inconsistent so for my purposes in would not draw any conclusions about his ability to hit in the clutch based on his prior performance don know how would have felt in but you may indeed be right when looked at sabo found more consistent record of hitting and more consistent pattern of his clutch hitting being proportionately below his non clutch ba ditto for joe carter this probably brings us to the heart of the disagreement am having with others on this topic must any conclusion based on statistical history be able to be applied broadly throughout data base before it has any validity is it impossible or irrational to apply statistical analysis to selected components of the data base btw correlating players overall batting average from with gives correlation coefficient of which is significant at something better than the confidence level correlating their clutch non clutch ba for the same period gives correlation of significant at no level of any interest completely accept that reasoning again what if we were to find the same individuals at each end of the spectrum on consistent basis actually it technically incorrect to say that we can predict future clutch performance it more correct to say that we can predict future clutch performance with any skill amen the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel news udel edu ravel udel edu philly from philly ravel udel edu robert hite subject re professional sports on fm radio message id c5y9wt gpw news udel edu sender usenet news udel edu nntp posting host ravel udel edu organization university of delaware references apr23 tesla njit edu date fri apr gmt lines in article apr23 tesla njit edu slutsky tesla njit edu writes am curious to known if there are any professional sports teams whose games are regularly broadcast on an fm station the only one am aware of is wysp in philadelphia who carries the eagles games if you respond to me will summarize for the list wip is the real home of the eagles merril reese and the birds on fm radio what joke classic rock station at that whats the sports world coming to when think of good signature it will be right about here until then this stupid message will have to do go phillies newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell tedward from tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer subject re bases loaded walk gives reds win in message id apr23 cs cornell edu organization cornell univ cs dept ithaca ny references mssc5xb3i cg netcom com apr23 cs cornell edu mssc5y41d netcom com date fri apr gmt lines in article mssc5y41d netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes in article apr23 cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes sigh here we go again you started it for predicting the future it has been entirely meaningless at least if it has meaning we don know how to find it did not say could predict the future you most certainly did non clutch clutch ab ba ab ba sabo samuel sabo is clearly better hitter than samuel yet you would pinch hit samuel because you predict that samuel will be clutch hitter and sabo will be choke hitter right call that predicting the future if you were to have been the reds manager at that time assume you would have had some basis for letting sabo hit rather than pinch hitting samuel sure some of that basis would have utilized prior performance you just wouldn have used this particular aspect of prior performance is this not correct right would have used aspects of prior performance which have been shown to be consistent in the past overall performance splits even matching hitting pitching styles all of these will give me some advantage if used properly even if all else were equal there would be no advantage gained by looking at past clutch performance and in this case everything else pointed to sabo one more time did not claim to be able to predict the future said that accept the above data as an indication that samuel would have had better chance for success in that situation than sabo that comes down to the same thing when perez left sabo in he was predicting the future the next ab he was predicting that sabo was more likely to get hit than samuel by supporting the swap you are predicting the opposite and am not dismissing your work stating my opinion you are saying that your work renders any opinion to the contrary invalid so that the retention of that opinion is some kind of insult to your work well yes you are aware of its existance you claim to be incapable of understanding it though suspect you are simply unwilling yet you rather forcefully state the opposite you don seem to think the work is worth reading yet you obviously feel the topic is important say this is insulting did not say that it is consistent skill have said that it is an indicator of performance under certain set of circumstances right this is the beef it has not proven to be an indicator of future performance under any circumstances at least none that we ve been able to come up with if you know of some where it is an indicator of future performance please let us in on your secret it is nice however to see that you will consider the possibility that you actually could have some preconceived biases most certainly as have repeatedly stated if you can come up with study which even hints at consistent clutch ability would love it however the straightforward attempts at such study have all failed miserably yeah hindsight is always doesn that make you bright this is stupid argument and you know it ah knew we could get to the name calling and there that word you like so much well it was stupid argument are you honestly debating that sure we know sabo didn get hit we have no idea whether samuel would have done any better or not one ab most certainly doesn prove anything believe that by season end that chris sabo batting average in clutch situations will be significantly lower than his batting average in non clutch situations can prove that it will happen so guess we ll just have to wait and see is this simply prediction for chris sabo for this year or is this prediction for all batters who have over the past few years hit xxx amount worse in the clutch than overall if you mean the first then as you say we ll just have to wait and see but the second is much stronger statement in fact it suggests rule we can then test this rule on past data to see if it worked for recent years think you will agree that if the rule didn work last year or the year before that it is unlikely to do any better this year right here another one for you in joe carter batting average in clutch situations was significantly below his batting average in non clutch situations each year presume you think this is random not going to get into case analysis sure you can find somebody who hit poorly from and then hit poorly in as well you can also find those who hit poorly from and then hit well in no this doesn prove any overall statistical trend that can be used to predict future performance across the breadth of major league ballplayers it just makes me think that in joe carter batting average in the clutch is not going to be as high as his ba in non clutch situations gambler fallacy unless there is reason to expect consistency run proves nothing can you give us reason to expect clutch ba to correlate from one year to the next ve seen detailed study of why shouldn expect it to correlate stupid total idiot my my such hostility the stupid was in reference to statement which was stupid and don see how you can deny it as for total idiot yes if you prove yourself unwilling to even consider evidence that might suggest that you are wrong would say the term fits nicely so tell me does the term fit or do you have an open mind valentine path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu caen chyang from chyang engin umich edu chung hsiung yang newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re seattle bb was re al stats and standings date apr gmt organization university of michigan engineering ann arbor lines distribution world message id r9ebiinnjoh srvr1 engin umich edu references r73afinn6hm srvr1 engin umich edu franjion spot colorado edu r8rctinn8dd senator bedfellow mit edu nntp posting host anaphora engin umich edu in article r8rctinn8dd senator bedfellow mit edu cmk athena mit edu charles kozierok writes in article franjion spot colorado edu franjion spot colorado edu john franjione writes griffey well most of it are intentional walks are you sure about this say pitching around him is more likely yeah maybe that is more likely but from the mariners tigers series it seems like every time there are base runners the pitchers seem to purposely pitch around him or give him free pass the funny thing was that griffey was struggling up until the last game of the four game series if remember correctly chung yang cheers charles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel sbcs sunysb edu sbgrad5 wynblatt from wynblatt sbgrad5 cs sunysb edu michael wynblatt newsgroups rec sport baseball subject good hands was re apology for article date apr gmt organization state university of new york at stony brook lines message id r9b7s hv sbcs cs sunysb edu references apr21 tesla njit edu c5w7zo xl eskimo com nntp posting host sbgrad5 cs sunysb edu keywords mattingly fielding good hands in article c5w7zo xl eskimo com stevet eskimo com steven thornton writes stuff deleted mattingly scores badly on both counts he doesn get to very many balls and he lets lot of balls go through the fact that he looks smooth has great hands and makes few errors means nothing this is traditional brainless reliance on observations that can easily be misled like lot of bad fielders mattingly actually makes himself look better by not having any range he nowhere near as bad as steve garvey but that not much of compliment agree with the flavor of this post but disagree with one specific argument that has great hands means nothing it seems to me that first baseman defensive value is not entirely or even primarily from his ability to field grounders or catch popups how many such chances does he get during game many fewer than he gets chances to catch throws from ss and mean the total of these is much higher than grounder popup totals this implies to me that there is value in catching these throws well even if they are high up the line or in the dirt good hands are needed for such plays and thus have value don have any numbers for the relative number of occurences of these plays but guess that the values of these abilities are similar it just like you don judge catcher defense primarily on how they field bunts and popups but not as marked suppose michael path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu emory europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu sol ctr columbia edu destroyer gumby yale news wesleyan edu eagle wesleyan edu kwolfer newsgroups rec sport baseball subject yanks over george speaks message id apr23 eagle wesleyan edu from kwolfer eagle wesleyan edu date apr edt organization wesleyan university nntp posting host willet wesleyan edu lines how about matt nokes run single against ron darling was that hit or what while watching the game yesterday they flashed up something regarding the boss talking about mark connor as bullpen coach he said something like it mark connor fault that the bullpen is so horrible here we go again george sticking his non baseball nose in the baseball business shut up george just spend the money get the players and leave buck and the coaches and players alone path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu msuinfo netnews upenn edu netnews cc lehigh edu ns1 cc lehigh edu cej0 from cej0 ns1 cc lehigh edu charles edward james newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re john wetteland derek lilliquist info please message id apr23 ns1 cc lehigh edu date apr gmt organization lehigh university lines was wondering if anyone knew if john wetteland was put on the dl again after his first day period was up read in the usa today sports section that he is on for surgery to repair broken toe and was wondering if that was new thought he was just letting it heal as of today usa today john wetteland should come off of the dl tonight and possibly pitch in the series this weekend forget who they play another question is derek lilliquist the main closer for the indians now that olin is gone need to know cause need to find reliever to replace wetteland and so far lilliquist is doing ok any information on either of the players would be greatly appreciated thank you for your time derek lilliquist is probably going to be the main closer but it will be kind of bullpen by committee also charles james if you don care where you re going lehigh university then you ain lost cej0 lehigh edu anonymous person in csc newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net sol ctr columbia edu eff ssd intel com ichips ornews intel com percy nosun hilbert joec from joec hilbert cyprs rain com joe cipale subject re old predictions to laugh at message id c5y00z yg hilbert cyprs rain com organization cypress semi beaverton or references apr15 cs cornell edu wilbanks spot colorado edu date fri apr gmt lines in article wilbanks spot colorado edu wilbanks spot colorado edu kokopeli writes my prediction the red sox cubs series and vikings broncos superbore will occur at the end of the world so which one will officially be the end of the world can see the end of the ws now well folks here it is bottom of the ninth bases loaded full count on sandberg in this game clemens winds heres the pitch swung on and it is line drive to center zupcic moves to his left he there and zot joec godot cyprs rain com warning elvis impersonating can be hazardous joec ursula ee pdx edu to your health it sure won help your reputation bike therefore am go red sox go celtics go seahawks go sonics newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com hp cv hp pcd hpcvaac koufax cv hp com paula from paula koufax cv hp com paul andresen subject kevin mitchell does it again message id apr23 hpcvaac cv hp com sender nobody hpcvaac cv hp com nobody nntp posting host koufax cv hp com organization our lady of the stand up triple date fri apr gmt lines in what seems to be classic mitchell move he drops fly ball and injures his hamstring on the same play haven heard anything on how serious the leg is paul who me bitter about mitchell performance in seattle nah we will stretch no farm animal beyond its natural length paula koufax cv hp com paul andresen hewlett packard home nw mckinley corvallis or sabr member since newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel louie tjuvm tju edu ssvkj from ssvkj tjuvm tju edu ken johnston subject re professional sports on fm radio message id bb9d899 ssvkj tjuvm tju edu sender usenet udel edu usenet news service nntp posting host tjuvm tju edu organization thomas jefferson university references apr23 tesla njit edu c5y9wt gpw news udel edu date fri apr gmt lines in article c5y9wt gpw news udel edu philly ravel udel edu robert hite writes in article apr23 tesla njit edu slutsky tesla njit edu writes am curious to known if there are any professional sports teams whose games are regularly broadcast on an fm station the only one am aware of is wysp in philadelphia who carries the eagles games if you respond to me will summarize for the list wip is the real home of the eagles merril reese and the birds on fm radio what joke at least we can hear the joke more than yards outside city limits now will wip ever strngthen their signal ken newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uunet ca canrem dosgate dosgate drew carley canrem com from drew carley drew carley canrem com subject skydome tix message id apr23 dosgate reply to drew carley drew carley canrem com organization canada remote systems distribution rec date apr est lines my schedule is flexible so any games are candidates ac though prefer to see texas hi tony think that might be able to help you out the rangers are here in toronto thursday july th through sunday july th and tickets should not be hard to find if you order them far enough in advance although don have ticket broker telephone number off hand if you give me couple of days will be able to get hold of couple the blue jays ticket info is or if you want to order by credit card call if you let me know when you want the tickets can save you possible long distance call if all else fails might be able to pull few strings and get you pair let me know whats happening drew carley toronto canada deluxe go away or shall taunt you second time canada remote systems toronto ontario newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu dmoney from dmoney magnus acs ohio state edu dean money subject the braves will come around message id apr23 magnus acs ohio state edu sender news magnus acs ohio state edu nntp posting host bottom magnus acs ohio state edu organization the ohio state university date fri apr gmt lines to all the braves doubters don worry the bats will come alive and the braves will come around the pitching is solid and as long the braves don have serious injuries to the starting rotation they ll continue to pitch well heck with the five starters on the braves rotation they could even sustain an injury to one of the five hope this doesn happen though the bats are there pendleton will certainly bat over justice is catching fire bream nixon sanders gant well there too much offense there to be kept quiet for much longer right now the cleveland indians have players batting over but certainly wouldn their seven for our respective seven though wouldn the braves be something right now with their pitching and players batting over the bullpen well it is suspect but when the bats come alive the guys in the bullpen will be of less concern so anyway believe the braves will be tough to beat this season not saying the braves have automatically won the division but optim istic about their season though it awful painful to watch them at times right now go braves dean newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net noc near net black clarku edu vax clarku edu hhenderson from hhenderson vax clarku edu subject re game length was re braves update message id apr93 vax clarku edu sender news black clarku edu usenet news system organization clark university references apr199315585989 ariel lerc nasa gov apr21 adobe com apr93 vax clarku edu apr22 adobe com date apr gmt lines sent version of this post out while ago but it was swallowed by the void my apologies if anyone ends up receiving it sherri nichols writes in article apr93 vax clarku edu hhenderson vax clarku edu writes snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes just don happen to think that the minutes added to the length of games over the last years has added anything interesting how would you quantify that suppose an easy way would be to look at attendance figures anyone got the numbers attendance figures aren going to quantify anything about my personal opinion which the above is clearly stated as add to me to the end of my sentence if you re confused about what meant oh no wasn confused understood that it was your personal opinion but thought we were discussing the need to shorten games the arguments which declare this need seem to hinge on the assertion that long games bore people and otherwise discourage them from going to the ballpark like to see if the increased length of games has negatively affected attendance if it has then there is problem and something should be done about it if it hasn then there isn problem and there no need to monkey with things as they are heather hhenderson vax clarku edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu menudo uh edu rosie uh edu st1ge from st1ge rosie uh edu edward hui newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re reason for giants june swoon giants off to fast start date apr gmt organization university of houston lines message id r9gdj nut menudo uh edu references nxm122 psuvm psu edu apr22 bnlux1 bnl gov reply to st1ge rosie uh edu nntp posting host rosie uh edu in article apr22 bnlux1 bnl gov kyee bnlux1 bnl gov kenton yee writes in article nxm122 psuvm psu edu nxm122 psuvm psu edu writes the giants have won of their last games behind some solid pitching excluding that win against atlanta if they can stay around first place after say the first games think they ve got legitimate chance at winning the pennant and maybe even more than that don you remember that the giants were in st place as late as june last year then their pitching collapsed their problem is they have optimistically only good starting pitchers swift brantly and the bowler can remember his name the other starters are extremely unreliable and often get blasted before innings that means the already shallow bullpen gets over worked this means after few months the bullpen collapses and their post all star record tends to be much worst than their pre all star record the bowler is john burkett who went to last night he is bargain pickup on my roto team got him at minimum of just thought does someone have the won lost pre post allstar records for the giants the last few seasons bet their records tends to be worst and worst as the season goes on this is not really true excluding last season the giants has been better nd half team in they had hot august to pull to within few games of the braves and dodgers before fading in september the giants may go back to earth but not as fast as last season for two reasons barry bonds roger craig is no longer the manager dusty can manage his pitching staffs much better than craig edward hui newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell tedward from tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer subject re bases loaded walk gives reds win in message id apr23 cs cornell edu organization cornell univ cs dept ithaca ny references mssc5xb3i cg netcom com c5xwai nu news cso uiuc edu mssc5y5u0 dn netcom com date fri apr gmt lines in article mssc5y5u0 dn netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes actually think the large scale sample size is part of the problem it seems to me that if we were to plot all the players in baseball in regard to ba vs clutch ba deviation we would get some kind of bell curve the axis being the deviation in clutch hitting vs non clutch the axis being the number of players certainly there would be some players on the extreme ends of the bell right most definitely my supposition is that if we were to find the same players consistently year after year at one end of the bell or the other then we might be able to make some reasonable conclusions about those players as opposed to all baseball players this may be the root of the confusion please consider the following hypothetical with an open mind note that am not yet saying that it has anything to do with the question at hand suppose we have simplified lotto game you pick number from and win if that number is drawn suppose we have large population of people who play this game every week in the first year of the game approximately of the population will win or more times in the second year of the game of those time winners will again be time winners in the third year of the game of those who won or more times in each of the first two years will win again suppose started with people in my population after three years have people who have consistently in each of the last three years won or more the number of times expected do we expect them to be big winners in the fourth year of the game no because we know there is no skill involved nothing about these consistent winners can influence their chances of winning but suppose we don know whether or not there is chance that skill might be involved perhaps some of the people in our population are psychic or something how would we test this hypothesis we can look for correlations in the population now most of the population will show zero correlation but our psychics should show high positive correlation even if they aren very good psychics they should still manage to win or more times most years net result small positive correlation over the entire population this probably brings us to the heart of the disagreement am having with others on this topic must any conclusion based on statistical history be able to be applied broadly throughout data base before it has any validity is it impossible or irrational to apply statistical analysis to selected components of the data base well zero correlation is zero correlation you mention that sabo has hit poorly in the clutch over the last years but if we look at the past we find that clutch patterns are just as likely to reverse as they are to remain consistent the length of the streak doesn seem to make difference to the probability that the player will be clutch or choke the next year is there any reason to expect this streak to be different from past streaks now if it were true that of all three year streaks remained true to form then we might have something useful but then we wouldn have zero correlation instead we have of all three year streaks remain true to form and of all three year streaks reverse you look at those numbers and say three year choke streak implies more likely to choke this year but it would be equally valid to look at those numbers and say three year choke streak implies more likely to be clutch this year since the probabilities are split each way completely accept that reasoning again what if we were to find the same individuals at each end of the spectrum on consistent basis then we would have something useful and we would also have positive correlation but for every individual that exhibits such pattern and holds true there is another who exhibits such pattern and then reverses cheers valentine path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com network ucsd edu cogsci king from king cogsci ucsd edu jonathan king newsgroups rec sport baseball subject teams as organisms stats or stats was re jack morris date apr gmt organization university of california san diego lines sender king cogsci ucsd edu distribution na message id r9hll a3t network ucsd edu references apr19 ramsey cs laurentian ca sdcc12 ucsd edu apr20 ramsey cs laurentian ca nntp posting host cogsci ucsd edu summary let talks stats and not stats note not posting this as part of an argument with roger meynard but as an independent sort of thread do actually quote some things that roger meynard wrote but it might be better to think of this as sampling his post in the hip hop sense because it fits in with what want to say maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes but the point is that the only decision making pro cess used to determine the best is the score of the game and it re lates to the teams not the individual players there is no method inherent in baseball of comparing individual performances and that is how it should be because after all baseball is team game there an interesting parallel between this way of viewing baseball team and some people conception of biological organism in the biology context we would very likely read fitness for the score of the game and organisms for teams how we interpret players is trickier but either organs or genes might seem reasonable choices depending on what point we were trying to make genes interpretation actually might be really interesting in this case but that would be different and probably longer post if however we take the organ view then our knowledge of biology should make us pause before we start saying things like species is more fit than species because of better organ given what we know about the interdependence of organs we would often be suspicious of such claims but note that this type of argument is quite often made when you map species onto humans and organ onto brain on the other hand some statements of this kind do seem more reasonable than others as far as we can test them brain above might be more reasonable than pancreas assuming no gross pathology particularly if species is primate even when you make such statements you should be concerned with the functioning of the whole organism and the possibility that one organ might be more crucial for one species and second organ in another not to mention the possibility that no organ is particularly crucial in some third species however if we are non vitalists with any kind of reductionsit streak we will want to say that an organism is not some completely magical unanalyzable whole but an intriguing process made up of various subprocesses that interact in ways that are potentially observable some of these processes might be localized to particular organs while others may be distributed across multiple organs in way this is just like baseball team except that think it is pretty clear that the processes and interactions involved in baseball are much simpler and less numerous than in most organisms to say that one player is better than another is to be able to say ab solutely that player team would have played better with player in their lineup sheer speculation impossible to ascertain one thing that is quite difficult about baseball is that perfectly controlled experiments are sometimes very tough to do but of course this has never stopped researchers from doing the best they can and sometimes deriving very powerful conclusions even in the absence of certainty most of this goes far beyond sheer speculation but even sheer speculation can motivate further interesting research if you want to select group of statistics and claim that clemens has done better than another pitcher with those statistics as criteria then fine in this cases we re seeing the word statistics means summary of observed events where the events themselves can be viewed as the output of some process and possibly inputs for other processes thus if we have any valid notion of how the processes are put together into the functioning organism data in the form of statistics might give us basis to test particular hypotheses but you have to be able to prove that those statistics measure the individual contribution to winning the ws because that is the only measure of best that has any meaning in the context of baseball this statement brings us back to the concept of fitness again fitness is defined in terms of both an organism and its environment you might be fit in one situation and not another moving to baseball it is clear that each team spends the entire season in an environment including all the other teams in the league in at least nominal sense the division winners are the fittest teams in the league in that they on average had better fitness scores than any of their competing opponennts but in real sense there is fairly large random component in the performance of each team that is difficult if not impossible to account for in terms of factors intrinsic to or interesting for baseball the same is true in biology but here is also no direct biological equivalent of the world series in basebal in the world series the random component may be greatly magnified by the small number of games that are played and both teams suddenly experience huge changes from the environement where they were originally successful it might be fun to watch but it unclear what it all really means now just one more un related point have yet to see that any of you can predict ws winner with any greater accuracy than jeanne dixon on the other hand you have seen some of us who can predict the outcome of the divisional races better than random assignment of teams to finishes and maybe some of us me who can do this better than the other participants in this forum on regular basis but this is probably only due to the fact that game schedule gives you little hope that bad hops aren the only difference between the winners and the losers moreover you ve had the opportunity to see some analysis of the world series situation that makes the strong claim that nobody can predict the ws winner with reliably greater accuracy than coin biased only to reflect the well known home vs road effect on winning percentage the stats are nice hobby and that about it there is no new knowledge being produced since stats are summaries of events it true that if you know the events you can derive the stats but if somebody is trying to understand the process behind the stats then the stats produce new knowledge and some of this might even be reliable repeatable and useful speaking of which should get back to producing knowledge in different field that is of course if can produce knowledge even though relying on stats to do it jking newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel news udel edu darwin sura net bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu gatech asuvax ncar uchinews raistlin timbuk cray com walter cray com mb from mb cray com maynard brandt subject re twins update message id apr23 walter cray com lines nntp posting host zzzzzz cray com organization cray research inc references apr23 sctc com date apr cdt in article apr23 sctc com macomber sctc com chuck macomber writes twins update posted april jim deshaies continues to be the surprise of not only the twins but of the american league as well going into today game deshaies was with era deshaies allowed earned runs in innings meaning his era will climb slightly deshaies who came to mn via trade with philadelphia which sent david west there continues to make andy macphail look like true genius minor correction hartley came in the west trade to phily deshaies signed as free agent over years he pitched for san diego last year regards maynard brandt cray research inc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu usenet coe montana edu news uoregon edu netnews nwnet net news washington edu hardy washington edu dudgeon from dudgeon hardy washington edu doug dudgeon newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re bosio no hitter date apr gmt organization university of washington lines message id r9hbsinnavr shelley washington edu references pb6755 apr23124316 thor albany edu reply to dudgeon opus cheme washington edu nntp posting host hardy washington edu pb6755 csc albany edu brown philip writes watched the final inning of bosio no hitter with several people at work after vizquel made that barehanded grab of the chopper up the middle someone remarked that if he had fielded it with his glove he wouldn have had time to throw riles out yet the throw beat riles by about two steps wonder how many others who watched the final out think vizquel had no choice but to make the play with his bare hand in this morning paper or was it on the radio vizquel was quoted as saying that he could have fielded the ball with his glove and still easily thrown out riles that he barehanded it instead so as to make the final play more memorable seems litle cocky to me but he made it work so he entitled doug dudgeon dept of chemical engineering bf dudgeon opus cheme washington edu university of washington seattle this space available newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu sgiblab pacbell com uop csus edu netcom com mss from mss netcom com mark singer subject re bases loaded walk gives reds win in redreport message id mssc5ya4m at1 netcom com organization netcom online communications services login guest references c5vhlh idz usenet ucs indiana edu mssc5w795 g4 netcom com grabiner apr23115329 germain harvard edu date fri apr gmt lines in article grabiner apr23115329 germain harvard edu grabiner math harvard edu david grabiner writes in article mssc5w795 g4 netcom com mark singer writes based only on this data don see any reason to pinch hit for sabo or any other player who had been poor clutch hitter in the past but there are many other factors involved in decision to pinch hit does the pinch hitter give you platoon advantage any portion of sabo clutch split that results from his platoon split is certainly real ability even if it has nothing to do with clutch hitting do you have singles hitter at the plate when you need home run do you have curveball pitcher facing batter who has trouble with curves hey what this we agree no platoon advantage sabo vs samuel both players have reputation of being excellent fastball hitters and both have reputation of being fooled too often with slow curves and change ups sabo has more power and little bit of better batting eye samuel is noted as an agressive free swinger sabo has more homerun power both players started the game hitting below there may have been some game considerations that might have prompted perez to want to reserve samuel for use later but the game was on the line and samuel never did get in given all of this don see lot to suggest pinch hitting nor do see anything to suggest no pinch hitting there is of course the clutch hitting information but if that useless then again if it not david grabiner grabiner zariski harvard edu we are sorry but the number you have dialed is imaginary please rotate your phone degrees and try again disclaimer speak for no one and no one speaks for me mark singer mss netcom com newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu gatech swrinde sdd hp com ux1 cso uiuc edu bradley bradley edu cs1 texdude from texdude cs1 bradley edu philip allen subject some baseball trivia message id texdude cs1 bradley edu sender news bradley bradley edu nntp posting host cs1 bradley edu organization bradley university date apr gmt lines who holds the record for most career strikeouts while playing for one team who holds the record for most career strikeouts for the rangers hint nolan ryan isn either what two pitchers have over career saves for two different teams who is the only player to hit or more career home runs and steal or more career bases for the same team no fair peeking at your baseball stats phil allen texdude cs1 bradley edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu gatech howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu newsrelay iastate edu destroyer gumby yale news wesleyan edu eagle wesleyan edu kwolfer newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re yankee thoughts message id apr23 eagle wesleyan edu from kwolfer eagle wesleyan edu date apr edt references apr20 clam com apr22 asd com mjones fenway organization wesleyan university nntp posting host willet wesleyan edu lines in article mjones fenway mjones fenway aix kingston ibm com mike jones writes scott asd com scott barman writes in article apr20 clam com sam steamer clam com sam mandelbaum writes wade boggs live in boston and like wade lot but his career is winding down and would rather see the yanks start to develop long term solution hensley muelins russ davis velarde besides wade just doesn have any range what shame about charlie hayes huh who would you have playing wade boggs or charlie hayes my choice is boggs no contest it will give them time to develop younger talent in an area the yankee farm system seems to be deficient hem two words russell davis playing in the cavern at albany aa last year down the alleys and to center davis went with homers there aren any small parks on the road in the eastern league either he and his mle was hr have no fielding statistics but from seeing him number of times last year say that he not brooks robinson but neither is he howard johnson unless they think they can win the pennant this year which seems possible and need boggs to do it think they re making the same sort of mistake with davis that boston made with boggs leaving him in the minors for two or three years after he shown that he was good hitter spike owen see wade boggs much rather see them develop dave silvestri or whoever wade and spike next to each other in the infield is going to raise the yankee staff era point and these guys are on the down sides of their careers too bad they gave up on randy valarde too many trips on the columbus shuttle hrm they still have him on the roster ab through the first two weeks they ve just never figured out what to do with him suspect that he hits enough especially vs lefties to be reasonable shortstop one rumor running around during spring training was that they wanted to convert silvestri to be catcher because his body type was wrong for shortstop you think that somebody in the same division who plays baltimore about dozen times year would know better mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com if one of our guys went down just doubled it no confusion there it didn require rhodes scholar if two of my teammates went down four of yours would had to protect my guys don drysdale in regard to boggs ll relate story about yankee fan at fenway last year for opening day was there to see them face baltimore and couldn help but listen to the boston fans talk about various players on the team one guy was totally obliterating boggs how he sucks etc told him was yankee fan and take him in second and who would he want in trade back he said pile of sh know boggs had some personal problems while playing for boston but come on he future hall of famer who really adds needed dimension to the yanks solid hitter decent fielder and more importantly teacher ask pat kelly think he got few good years left in his bat and may be key contributor down the stretch as they win the american league east this year boston fans have no class they ll probably boo him like crazy his first time back in pinstripes and hope he goes for and shuts them up newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet boulder ucsu spot colorado edu franjion from franjion spot colorado edu john franjione subject re bosox go down in smoke ii seattle message id franjion spot colorado edu sender news ucsu colorado edu usenet news system nntp posting host spot colorado edu organization university of colorado boulder references apr23 data io com date fri apr gmt lines dietz parody data io com kent dietz writes oh yea and chris bosio pitched no hitter one over the minimum two have there ever been any other no hitters in mariner history john franjione department of chemical engineering university of colorado boulder franjion spot colorado edu newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net wupost csus edu netcom com mss from mss netcom com mark singer subject re juggling dodgers message id mssc5tlmy fxh netcom com organization netcom online communications services login guest references rvesterm vma cc nd edu mssc5qh3y l1p netcom com r22coinnhg1 gap caltech edu distribution all date wed apr gmt lines in article r22coinnhg1 gap caltech edu jeff smoggy gg caltech edu jeff goldsmith writes in mssc5qh3y l1p netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes if this is true note that don think it is lasorda should be fired for at least two reasons publicly humiliating his players knuckling under to his players wishes did not write that in fact those statements were rebuttal to an earlier posting that made and this was culled from my strong rebuttal to those statements please slander shame there is fine line between getting players input and knuckling under to players demands manager much like military officer needs to have his her players complete obedience and respect during game after the game it no big deal but when there is no time to do more than react players must trust the manager or the team often falls apart see boston red sox ff after the game it no big deal after the employees leave the workplace it doesn matter what they say about the boss or the company puhlease strawberry demeanor as represented by the media often sounds like demands suspect that comment like enjoy hitting fourth used to it would get pretty brutally misinterpreted by the media if it came from strawberry russ porter quoted strawberry as saying feel more comfortable hitting cleanup and think perform best in that role paraphrased by my memory and bias that seems like fairly non petulant answer to what was almost certainly question like how do you feel about being moved to the third spot in the order first it ross porter second am really tired of seeing the kind of response that indicates that all do is parrot what some media person says or writes have brain if choose to characterize something in certain fashion it because that is what believe to be accurate it is not just because some unnamed mediot made the characterization more media sensitive player might answer the manager knows what he is doing if he thinks that batting me third will help the team then am all for it we ignore that answer as brown stuff so it seems little bit of an overreaction to brand darryl response as petulant did not brand darryl response as petulant because never heard any response from darryl did call him name referred to him as primadonna someone else concluded that did that because hate him don hate him think he primadonna if you disagree fine but stop putting words in my mouth the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu gatech howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu uwm edu lll winken llnl gov sun barr west west sun com male ebay sun com serenity dedwards from dedwards serenity ebay sun com david edwards newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re strike zone width was re jose canseco date apr gmt organization sun microsystems inc lines distribution usa message id r9hce ht2 male ebay sun com references bd51686 atlas nafb trw com reply to dedwards serenity ebay sun com nntp posting host serenity ebay sun com in article bd51686 atlas nafb trw com mspede atlas nafb trw com writes well it just studying tape frame by frame that all the biggest thing that you notice however is how bastardized the strike zone has become death to the umpires union the plate is across not call the high strikes strikes and quit calling pitches outside strikes they re balls speaking of this wide strike zone sure like to see cameras placed in each major league park such that an overview shot of home plate is available cbs had this during the ws or did just dream it then again players managers must not be too upset with the current wide strike zone mark pede wait minute if read the rules right stike is any portion of the ball over any portion of the plate given that the ball is in diameter this sez that the zone width is or while this is still less than the number given can forgive any ump for misjudging on an object moving at to miles per hour many times not in straight line think the umpires union has great grasp of the rules david edwards newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu news cso uiuc edu uiatma hbrooks from hbrooks uiatma atmos uiuc edu harold brooks subject re bases loaded walk gives reds win in date fri apr gmt message id c5ye7k hb9 news cso uiuc edu references mssc5xb3i cg netcom com c5xwai nu news cso uiuc edu mssc5y5u0 dn netcom com sender usenet news cso uiuc edu net noise owner organization happy mangum rattlesnake festival lines in article mssc5y5u0 dn netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes in article c5xwai nu news cso uiuc edu hbrooks uiatma atmos uiuc edu harold brooks writes in article mssc5xb3i cg netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes actually think the large scale sample size is part of the problem it seems to me that if we were to plot all the players in baseball in regard to ba vs clutch ba deviation we would get some kind of bell curve the axis being the deviation in clutch hitting vs non clutch the axis being the number of players certainly there would be some players on the extreme ends of the bell my supposition is that if we were to find the same players consistently year after year at one end of the bell or the other then we might be able to make some reasonable conclusions about those players as opposed to all baseball players let be careful here if players performance was completely random in clutch no clutch then you would still expect some players to be good in the clutch every year and some to be not so good every year with two years worth of data you have of the players good each year bad each year and would have one good and one bad year we have players for years just flipping coin you expect players to be good all years and to be bad every year this is what we actually get no of good years clutch performers coin flip random essentially the distribution of clutch performers by number of years of good performance is the same as what you would get if the process leading to deviations from non clutch performance was completely random if there was anything to clutch hitting at least in this definition that had any predictive capability you expect to see the number of players at the ends to be much larger than that predicted by flipping coin further if you limit yourself to players who were lot above or below average in clutch situations say standard deviation from the mean more than one year the random explanation still looks good in the four years that looked at the data from elias there were players with minimum of at bats in clutch situations that were sigma from the mean two different years of those players of them changed sign between the two years in other words they were great clutch hitters one year and really horrible the other year if it was just random process you expect those numbers to be everything that been measured about clutch hitting over period of years that could be used to predict any ability with any proposed definition has looked like random process with the caveat that there may be something related to platoon advantage that could be dragged out of the data john lowenstein probably never had clutch ab against left handed pitcher but he might well have had some in blowouts so that there would be bias since his clutch abs would be more geared to his platoon advantage this is not subject that has been glanced at casually lot of people have put lot of effort into studying it and every one of them with the exception of the elias study has been unable to find anything that would allow you to predict how someone will do in clutch situations better than flipping coin self serving plug follows some of the flaws in the elias study are discussed in my paper in the forth coming sabr book the perfect game by taylor publishing the authors are supposed to get slice of the advance so go bug your local bookstores now and maybe can get enough to take my wife to dinner once harold harold brooks hbrooks uiatma atmos uiuc edu national severe storms laboratory norman ok used to work for brewery too but didn drink on the job bavasi on dal maxvill view that florida can win the nl east in path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net jhunix hcf jhu edu jhunix hcf jhu edu not for mail from akamholz jhunix hcf jhu edu andrew kamholz newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re camden yards date apr organization homewood academic computing johns hopkins university baltimore md usa lines message id r9k6ninn2q9 jhunix hcf jhu edu references apr23 uvm edu nntp posting host jhunix hcf jhu edu in article apr23 uvm edu luh med uvm edu eddy luh writes anyone know how can get some tickets to see the birds at camden yards more specifically anyone have confidence in any particular ticket agencies in the new england new york area that will be fair about prices tickets are very hard to get even at the box office at camden yards if you really want to see game here go to school in baltimore price should not be an issue tickets go up to but you should be willing to go as high as if you really want to come men go crazy in andrew kamholz something in me dark and sticky congregations but all the time it getting strong they only get better sting no way of dealing with this feeling one by one peter gabriel can go on like this too long path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu pitt edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com sgiblab nec gw netkeeper vivaldi bsdsun esd dl nec com west from west esd dl nec com mike west newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re why is barry bonds not batting th message id c5ycd1 esd dl nec com date apr gmt references apr23 yuma acns colostate edu sender news esd dl nec com organization engineering and support division nec america inc lines nntp posting host swan esd dl nec com newsreader tin version pl9 timothy cree timothy lamar colostate edu wrote in article apr22 hpcvaac cv hp com paula koufax cv hp com paul andresen writes in article apr21 leland stanford edu punjabi leland stanford edu sanjeev punjabi writes having bonds batting behind williams means that matt will get more good pitches to hit this is important since he struggles so much with breaking balls opposing pitchers don want to walk williams to get to bonds have to wonder if this good hitter behind you argument is really valid has anyone done study on this you want study look at matt williams the year after mitchell was gone look no further not scientific study but it ll show the truth for matt besides bonds wants to bat th had thought that williams batted after mitchell wouldn that show that williams does better at th rather than th the point is moot though becase clark pretty much demands to be rd and like you point out bonds does like to bat th the only person left to bat th is williams mike west west esd dl nec com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu pitt edu gatech howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu newsrelay iastate edu news iastate edu bvc edu mikef from mikef bvc edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re how does pitcher get save message id apr23 bvc edu date apr gmt references apr23 newshub ariel yorku ca organization buena vista college storm lake ia lines in article apr23 newshub ariel yorku ca cs902060 ariel yorku ca geoffrey dias writes the subject line says it all what is the rule that qualifies pitcher as making save imho this is the most untrustworthy silly stat by today rules in all of baseball my understanding is to qualify as save pitcher cannot pitch more than three innings and the potential tying run must at least appear in the on deck circle also the lead pitcher enters with cannot excede three runs believe that the official scorers must assert more of their authority in determining winners savers etc for instance pitcher can come in in the ninth with lead blow the lead fall behind have his team come back in the next half inning and earn the win has this pitcher earned win no way guy could pitch five strong innings of middle relief and see his teammates rally to tie the score assume he came in to start the fourth and left after the eighth his teammate holds the opposition scoreless in the ninth and they score run in the bottom of the ninth to win the third pitcher earns the win and the middle reliever gets no stat satisfaction mike bleed the blue of dodgers and even like lasorda spaghetti sauce newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet island fester from fester island com mike fester subject re white and black racism was about the phillies message id apr23 island com sender usenet island com the usenet mail target organization usr local rn organization references p00421 psilink com apr20 princeton edu date fri apr gmt lines in article apr20 princeton edu niepornt phoenix princeton edu david marc nieporent writes in article p00421 psilink com dennis parslow p00421 psilink com writes to beat dead horse seem to remember fair amount of sympathy for some black fringe player named roberto clemente and for roy campanella and for thurman munson and for just about anyone else who we may not even have liked as players but mourned for dying too young wiggins alan believe he was well out of baseball by the time he died but that besides the point sure people would feel slightly sympathetic for rickey if he were killed but they would also be criticizing him lot more for his actions example how about jose canseco he gets couple of speeding tickets and all of the sudden his attitude is awful what the hell do speeding tickets have to do with clubhouse influence anyway so why do sportswriters talk about it all the time uh he also has been charged with chasing his wife in car and smashing it into tree as well as carrying loaded firearm in his car and the speeding reported was over mph reckless driving or brian hunter and keith mitchell both of whom had dwi problems towards the end of last year two years ago it was cited as sign of their immaturity etc actually hadn heard about this thanks meanwhile dykstra almost killed both himself and daulton and didn read any sportswriter complaining about that they may have talked about how bad it was for the phillies but never read anywhere criticism of dykstra character or daulton intelligence for that matter based on this incident don know what you were reading or watching but sure saw lot about that and about dykstra poker games most of the writing was along the lines of how incredibly stupid and selfish it was and how he hurt the team by wracking himself and the catcher up etc espn raised questions about his judgement etc the print media here in the sf area questioned why disciplinary action wouldn be taken against dykstra and one article pointed out that if lenny wanted to kill himself there were ways that wouldn endanger other people lives then there was dykstra himself being quoted on how stupid it was etc mike disclaimer these opiini damn wq wq exit quitbye ctrlaltdel logout save quit quit zz zzzzzz vi man vi help helpquit man help help exit quit ctrlshftdel hey what does stop l1a path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net europa eng gtefsd com emory ogicse henson janice n9143349 from n9143349 janice cc wwu edu douglas norris the mad kobold newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re bosio no hits red soxs message id n9143349 janice date apr gmt article janice n9143349 references apr23 gallua gallaudet edu sender news henson cc wwu edu usenet wwu organization western washington university lines swhitfield gallua gallaudet edu writes chris bosio seattle pitcher just no hit the red sox this is the second no hitter in seattle history randy johnson got the first also this was bosio first career no hitter this is mlb first no hitter this year go trivia time ok we all know that dave my batting average is down in the valle caught chris bosio no hitter last night and is batting over btw here is the question who caught randy johnson no hitter in june of hint not dave valle the mad kobold is douglas todd norris n9143349 henson cc wwu edu depeche mode u2 they might be giants inxs ha the police exercise your basic rights we could build building site from the bricks of shame is built the hope depeche mode if you want van canucks sea supersonics sea mariners sea seahawks st rnd nd th th congratulations to chris bosio mariners on his no hitter of boston newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel news udel edu darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet island fester from fester island com mike fester subject re bonilla message id apr23 island com sender usenet island com the usenet mail target organization usr local rn organization references news duke edu apr21 princeton edu date fri apr gmt lines in article apr21 princeton edu roger astro princeton edu roger lustig writes when say black mean us born black people for the purposes of this discussion hispanic players were in baseball before and one team in the signed lots of hispanics because they went over better with the local audience than blacks did what about black hispanics and why would more hispanics stick around than blacks don know but remember this is the country that had special racial laws for one group and one group only blacks our national history man you had better do some serious reading really really doubt that you meant to say this mike disclaimer these opiini damn wq wq exit quitbye ctrlaltdel logout save quit quit zz zzzzzz vi man vi help helpquit man help help exit quit ctrlshftdel hey what does stop l1a xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec sport baseball soc culture jewish newsgroups rec sport baseball soc culture jewish path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com ncr sd ncrcae ncrhub2 lznj2 lznj ulysses allegra princeton crux roger from roger crux princeton edu roger lustig subject re jewish baseball players message id apr16 princeton edu originator news nimaster sender news princeton edu usenet news system nntp posting host crux princeton edu reply to roger astro princeton edu roger lustig organization princeton university references apr93 lafibm lafayette edu qkkodinn5f5 jhunix hcf jhu edu apr15 midway uchicago edu date fri apr gmt lines in article apr15 midway uchicago edu thf2 midway uchicago edu writes in article qkkodinn5f5 jhunix hcf jhu edu pablo jhunix hcf jhu edu pablo iglesias writes in article apr93 lafibm lafayette edu vb30 lafibm lafayette edu vb30 writes just wondering friend and were talking the other day and we were for some reason trying to come up with names of jewish baseball players past and present we weren able to come up with much except for sandy koufax somebody stankowitz and maybe john lowenstein can anyone come up with any more know it sounds pretty lame to be racking our brains over this but humor us thanks for your help hank greenberg would have to be the most famous because his jewish faith actually affected his play missing late season or was it world series games because of yom kippur the other jewish hof er is rod carew who converted did he ever really convert he married jewish woman but ve never heard him say he converted elliot maddox on the other hand lowenstein is jewish as well as montana only representative to the major leagues undeserving cy young award winner steve stone is jewish between stone koufax ken holtzman might have the wrong pitcher thinking of the one who threw no hitter in both the al and nl and big ed reulbach that quite starting rotation moe berg can catch harry steinfeldt the in the tinkers evers chance infield yep holtzman saul rogovin won an era title in or so before blowing out the arm is stanky jewish or is that just dave cohen kinda misinterpretation whatever doesn look like he stuck around the majors too long be surprised btw they may just be shopping gallego around to make room for as roger newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com ncr sd ncrcae ncrhub2 lznj2 lznj ulysses allegra princeton crux roger from roger crux princeton edu roger lustig subject re sandberg runs rbis was re notes on jays vs indians series message id apr16 princeton edu originator news nimaster sender news princeton edu usenet news system nntp posting host crux princeton edu reply to roger astro princeton edu roger lustig organization princeton university references c5hpcv hl andy bgsu edu c5jm0m jw cs dal ca c5jqby m7a news rich bnr ca distribution na date fri apr gmt lines in article c5jqby m7a news rich bnr ca bratt crchh7a9 nosubdomain nodomain john bratt writes in article c5jm0m jw cs dal ca niguma ug cs dal ca gord niguma writes alomar fans left rbi fans and runs off this list because they are dependant on the team to large extent if frank thomas hit first he lose lot of rbi and anyways how many nd place hitters have you known to drive in runs doesn happen that often very unlikely with devon white obp in front of you pretty sure that sandberg has done this at least once know someone will correct me if wrong rbis and runs scored are the two most important offensive statistics you can talk about obp and slg all you want but the fact remains the team that scores more runs wins the game right so who cares which player gets credited as long as the team gets more runs if player helps the team get more and rbi but doesn score them all himself who cares consider player single player grounder to short reaches on the force at nd player double to rd player sac fly gets run gets an rbi are you sure they helped the team more than and think hard now flame away as you wish roger path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu swrinde elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl bu edu cvbnet thurman mlogan from mlogan thurman prime com max logan x2313 newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re new home for the bosox message id cvbnetprime com date apr gmt references mif101 psuvm psu edu sender postnews cvbnetprime com lines mif101 psuvm psu edu writes heard about month back that the red sox are getting new dome stadium have relatives that just moved up that way and they said about the city releasing the funds can anybody verify this to game bosox fan in pa have lived in the boston area for years now they have been talking about new boston garden hockey basketball since ve lived here one day the last hurdle has been overcome and the next day there new hurdle fans have been grumbling about foxboro stadium or whatever it called this year for nearly as long but there are only preliminary proposals for new stadium local politics prevents anything from being done in timely fashion there will not be new ballpark in my lifetime max logan nashua nh path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu usenet coe montana edu news washington edu ns1 nodak edu aardvark ucs uoknor edu dark side of the moon uoknor edu andrew newsgroups rec sport baseball subject cubs mailing list message id apr199315221350 dark side of the moon uoknor edu from andrew dark side of the moon uoknor edu chihuahua charlie date apr cdt distribution usa organization ou academic user services nntp posting host loopback uoknor edu news software vax vms vnews lines lines is there anyone out there running chicago national league ballclub list if so please send me information on it to andrew aardvark ucs uoknor edu thanks chihuahua charlie ou is not responsible academic user services for anything anywhere the university of oklahoma except for that one andrew aardvark ucs uoknor edu incident where path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc zappala from zappala pollux usc edu daniel zappala newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re darrrrrrrrryl date apr organization university of southern california los angeles ca lines sender nntp pollux usc edu distribution world message id qn60kinniut pollux usc edu references apr15 acad drake edu apr16 alleg edu mssc5kcru ip netcom com nntp posting host pollux usc edu mark singer brings up the strawberry incident where he lost homerun and the fan caught it before each dodger game the public address announcer makes speech wherein he says that fans are welcome to the souvenirs of balls that are hit into the stands as long as they do not interfere with any that are in the field of play was the fan wrong should he have been more aware of the situation and acted to avoid any possibility of interference yes think he should have done more to get out of the way as much as fans want to catch ball they really should be aware that winning the game is more important as dodger fan he has to be aware that this is the home stadium and that entails helping the home team win in any way possible as soon as the ball was hit that far his first instinct should be to root for darryl to catch it not to try to catch it himself particularly when he is sitting that close enjoy the attitude of the wrigley fans where they are against visiting team home runs so much they actually throw them back on the field now this has nothing to do with whether darryl could have caught it or not sure he probably screwed up but the fan should realize his first responsibility is to get out of the way and help the team win daniel daniel caldera usc edu newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu sol ctr columbia edu usenet ucs indiana edu news from dwarner journalism indiana edu david subject re yankee bullpen help message id c5lg3a b51 usenet ucs indiana edu sender news usenet ucs indiana edu usenet news system nntp posting host clove journalism indiana edu reply to dwarner journalism indiana edu organization indiana university references netnews upenn edu date fri apr gmt lines alan sepinwall writes bullpen blues deleted what buck gonna do and what george gonna do if this continues to happen alan george will do the only logical thing he can do when the yanks bullpen isn performing fire the manager david dwarner journalism indiana edu blue riddle productions it on the rap is an art ep is coming out on tape this time for real mail me for the path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net spool mu edu olivea sgigate odin kubey from kubey sgi com ken kubey newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re dave kingman for the hall of fame message id c5lgey a5u odin corp sgi com date apr gmt references apr15 news yale edu apr16 princeton edu sender news odin corp sgi com net news organization silicon graphics inc mountain view ca lines nntp posting host summit wpd sgi com in article apr16 princeton edu roger astro princeton edu roger lustig writes as for ryan is his better than morris that what lot of voters tend to look at and morris was awfully good for decade and doesn lead mlb history in walks allowed either despite walks and loses ryan deserves to be in the hall of fame imho based only on his ho hitters the strike out records are an extra what do people think about andre hr dawson for the hof name ken kubey or qb reading editing or printing of this text address kubey sgi com without the express written consent of disclaimer the usual major league baseball is prohibited path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu menudo uh edu jane uh edu st1ge from st1ge jane uh edu edward hui newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re bonds vs maddux date apr gmt organization university of houston lines message id qn5vq b33 menudo uh edu references c5l99l hfz cup hp com reply to st1ge jane uh edu nntp posting host jane uh edu in article c5l99l hfz cup hp com loos cup hp com joe loos writes ve been following the giants closely over the off season newspapers notesgroup etc but had my first up close and personal last night at the stick after watching giants hitters struggle last year barry swing was very impressive he very quick and his swing seems effortless even compared to clark particularly clark as of late it was interesting to see bonds hit maddux so well not sure if barry was after revenge against the braves or what but he stroked three very pretty hits hr for rbi the giants always hit maddux well but it was interesting that maddux did not pitch around bonds to get to clayton last night he threw straight fastballs over the plate to bonds in the st last night got away with the first one but bonds hit the second one out of the park then in the rd when clark was at third base with one out maddux did not intentionally walk bonds and bonds dropped single to left center the giants as team are doing lot of surprising things this year in addition to bonds there has been some good pitching and some hitters seem to be swinging much better clayton defense has been superb mcgee seems to like leading off this year manwaring is driving the ball so on so forth the braves announcers pointed out that mcgee as leadoff hitter has not scored run yet he will always hit around but concerning about his on base percentage the key in the lineup is matt williams he has to stay hot so that bonds can hit with runners on base hope it continues think they need to continue well into june before people are really sold that they are for real particularly the pitching the pitching gets set back as bud black is placed on the dl burba has done superb job filling in so far he looks like different pitcher from last year however swift is terrible in both of his starts with burba moving into the rotation mike jackson is the only right handed reliever aside from rod beck he ll get lot of actions also hope that dusty can manage his bullpen better than roger craig especially on beck was concerned when beck was used for straight days earlier this week for myself think the fresh start of magowan baker etc has really wiped out lot of negatives from the last few years and will be real factor in helping them significantly improve over last year so far so good edward hui path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu pitt edu traven from traven pitt edu neal traven newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re jewish baseball players message id blue cis pitt edu date apr gmt references apr16 blurt oswego edu sender news pitt edu lines newsreader tin version pl8 ma ind25 blurt oswego edu wrote believe that rusty staub was also jewish ball player also mordaci brown back in the early th century he was pitcher whose nickname was fingers brown for obvious reasons he had fingers for ma ind25 daniel patrick staub is catholic school kid from nawlins mordecai brown farm kid probably protestant from somewhere in the midwest he lost those fingers in farm machinery accident jim palmer isn jewish himself but mr jockey shorts adoptive parents are also not absolutely certain that carew actually converted his wife and children certainly are jewish neal traven pitt edu you re only young once but you can be traven vms cis pitt edu immature forever larry andersen newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net sol ctr columbia edu usenet ucs indiana edu news from dwarner journalism indiana edu david subject re why spanky message id c5lgio c0e usenet ucs indiana edu sender news usenet ucs indiana edu usenet news system nntp posting host clove journalism indiana edu reply to dwarner journalism indiana edu organization indiana university references apr16 adobe com date fri apr gmt lines sherri nichols writes in article ql93binn1s5 postoffice1 psc edu boone psc edu jon boone writes spanky is too slow if he were quicker he would still be here but with slaught and tom prince they didn want to lose prince in order to bring up that th pitcher slaught is about as good as spanky and prince is coming along nicely tom prince is year old no hit catcher think of him as young dann bilardello or young don bordello can begin to fathom why the pirates have been so afraid of losing this guy who been in aaa most of the last seasons the pirates released kirk gibson last year because prince was out of options then eventually sent prince down anyway and he cleared waivers without peep he another year older and still can hit why do they think he wouldn clear waivers now why would they care there strong possibility that the bucs have absolutely no other catching prospects in the minors at this point at least nobody ready for any serious aaa majors duty the main reason they might have stayed with prince could be just age especially if spanky was creeping toward his mid or something all things considered though be lot more comfortable with spanky behind the plate than prince isn there decent backup backstop out there looking for work sherri nichols snichols adobe com david dwarner journalism indiana edu blue riddle productions it on the rap is an art ep is coming out on tape this time for real mail me for the path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net usc usc not for mail from genzuk mizar usc edu michael genzuk newsgroups rec sport baseball subject info on snow date apr organization university of southern california los angeles ca lines sender genzuk mizar usc edu distribution world message id r9ksm mizar usc edu nntp posting host mizar usc edu sure all of you have heard of the extraordiary start by rookie snow of the california angeles other than the fact that his father was star receiver with the rams and is now radio personality in los angeles and came from the yankees organization don know much about if anyone has info and background on the young fenom please post by the way for those of you not following his exploits he has hit four home runs in three days two last night he has also delivered the winning hit couple of times for the angeles in this young season thanks michael from usc newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel news intercon com psinntp asd com scott from scott asd com scott barman subject re how to speed up games marginally realistic message id apr23 asd com organization american software development corp west babylon ny references c5she2 lkf ucdavis edu m0nll6s ahc udcps3 cps udayton edu he82p38 zola esd sgi com date fri apr gmt lines in article he82p38 zola esd sgi com archer elysium esd sgi com archer bad cop surly writes in m0nll6s ahc udcps3 cps udayton edu mbohler udcps3 cps udayton edu michael bohler writes to really speed up the game umps need to start calling strikes the way they used to talking about making the strike zone start at the knees and go up to the top of the letters forget this the strike zone is in the general area of the groin lot less and counts and quicker game they tried that in the and people stopped coming to the ballparks in droves as offense suffered immensely they lowered the mound first before the season the shrinkage of the strike zone didn start until the mid scott barman mets mailing list feed the following into your shell scott asd com mail mets request asd com subscribe let go mets newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net europa eng gtefsd com fs7 ece cmu edu pellns alleg edu news from luriem alleg edu michael lurie the liberalizer subject re winfield spot on the all time greats team message id apr23 alleg edu sender news alleg edu organization allegheny college references c5wewd kto murdoch acc virginia edu date fri apr gmt lines in article c5wewd kto murdoch acc virginia edu drw3l delmarva evsc virginia edu david robert walker writes thanks for the numbers they portray true image in many ways accept them the first ones and the second is winfield ba really only around newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu gatech howland reston ans net europa eng gtefsd com fs7 ece cmu edu pellns alleg edu news from luriem alleg edu michael lurie the liberalizer subject re re re all time best players message id apr23 alleg edu sender news alleg edu organization allegheny college references apr21 tesla njit edu date fri apr gmt lines in article apr21 tesla njit edu drm6640 tesla njit edu writes overall career don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly wanna go to game sometime jesus christ boy have you not heard of the real all time best steve balboni now that yankee pride newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu gatech howland reston ans net europa eng gtefsd com fs7 ece cmu edu pellns alleg edu news from luriem alleg edu michael lurie the liberalizer subject re the all time greats team message id apr23 alleg edu sender news alleg edu organization allegheny college references apr21 iscsvax uni edu date fri apr gmt lines in article apr21 iscsvax uni edu reed5575 iscsvax uni edu writes in article apr19 alleg edu luriem alleg edu michael lurie the liberalizer writes in article apr14 iscsvax uni edu reed5575 iscsvax uni edu writes uhhhhh winfield has carrer slugging average of career peak no during winfield peak his slugging average was an average of points above the league average mel ott is hank aaron is and frank robinson is in their worst years of their peak they are still better than winfield in his best peak year winfield best is above the average ott worst is above the average and robinson worst is above the league average career no slugging big deal many right fielders including darryl strawberry and andre dawson can easliy surpass this for career slugging average so unless there are some real stats that make winfield worthy of the team he won even be allowed to be water boy eddie gaedel is the water boy and his career on base percentage is tons better than winfield check your facts andre dawson career slugging pct is in the so is winny would like to see your facts winny has probably done better than points above with carrer slg of check on more important stats defense and heart batting average rbi peak and career especially career winny ranks in the top outfielders of all time you are using bs to make your standings and would like to know where you are getting your numbers from newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu gatech howland reston ans net europa eng gtefsd com fs7 ece cmu edu pellns alleg edu news from luriem alleg edu michael lurie the liberalizer subject re all time peak players message id apr23 alleg edu sender news alleg edu organization allegheny college references apr22 princeton edu date fri apr gmt lines in article apr22 princeton edu roger crux princeton edu roger lustig writes in article apr21 alleg edu luriem alleg edu michael lurie the liberalizer writes in article r3dln oqm transfer stratus com jmann vineland pubs stratus com jim mann writes in article apr20 alleg edu luriem alleg edu michael lurie the liberalizer writes very interesting gehrig below bonds and schmidt ricky henderson he could steal bases but his hitting stats are not even close to dimmagio uhhhh where is winfield henderson stat are probably closer to dimaggio than you think then give me numbers man winfield could whip henderson butt at what basestealing not henderson all time leader and is good for about runs worth of sb lifetime winfield is about sb behind and has net runs on base average winfield best year was nine points below henderson lifetime oba lifetime the diff is points slugging winfield by points they re both good ofs though winfield looks better with his huge bod winfield best year henderson tb iii gives henderson total player rating of winfield of they have rickey as much better fielder which don buy but henderson is simply the best leadoff hitter of all time and winfield isn the best anything of all time henderson is the best leadoff hitter of all time arguably winfield has meant more to his team than henderson unlike daryll henderson tries hard he is an amazing centerfielder rickey is very good maybe better than winfield was angry at the dissing of winfield though winfield has been better than henderson lately check the numbers winfield may surprise you he will have basehits and should have homeruns when he retires wishful thiniking if he plays to newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu gatech howland reston ans net europa eng gtefsd com fs7 ece cmu edu pellns alleg edu news from luriem alleg edu michael lurie the liberalizer subject re best first basemen message id apr23 alleg edu sender news alleg edu organization allegheny college references apr22 ns1 cc lehigh edu date fri apr gmt lines in article apr22 ns1 cc lehigh edu ch00 ns1 cc lehigh edu chris hartzell writes in article apr20 tesla njit edu drm6640 tesla njit edu writes don mattingly is the best first baseman in the history of baseball always has been always will be don is good but so was keith hernandez just heard don talk about how he learned how to be good fielder by talking and watching keith play jt snow newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu gatech howland reston ans net europa eng gtefsd com fs7 ece cmu edu pellns alleg edu news from luriem alleg edu michael lurie the liberalizer subject re all time peak players message id apr23 alleg edu sender news alleg edu organization allegheny college references c5w2le jpk ucdavis edu date fri apr gmt lines in article c5w2le jpk ucdavis edu ez027993 dale ucdavis edu gary built like villanueva huckabay writes michael lurie the liberalizer writes henderson stat are probably closer to dimaggio than you think then give me numbers man winfield could whip henderson butt well you re absolutely completely dead wrong but thanks for playing as soon as get to my office ll be happy to post rickey and dave career lines both are very fine players but henderson has consistently been better as for rickey slacking due to his contract problems this year any comments considering he basically picked up the entire team and put them on his back think he deserves little slack and think he deserves year extension at per year quickly was upset at people dissing winfield henderson is the better player winfield can come close though lets see what rickey does for the rest of his career people forget how good winny was in the and also how great rickey was newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu gatech howland reston ans net europa eng gtefsd com fs7 ece cmu edu pellns alleg edu news from luriem alleg edu michael lurie the liberalizer subject re sbs hrs message id apr23 alleg edu sender news alleg edu organization allegheny college references c5ws3k hqc odin corp sgi com date fri apr gmt lines in article c5ws3k hqc odin corp sgi com dans fore csd sgi com dan steinman writes last night on the giants mets radio broadcast hank and ted were discussing the fact that there were only players who had ever hit homeruns and stolen bases in their career while hojo was batting anyone have list not as easy as it sounds to come up with all of them couldn mays mantle aaron henderson morgan bonds dad frank robinson molitor yount guessing now be interested to see the whole list thanks dan ya think winfield is on it path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu msuinfo netnews upenn edu news cc swarthmore edu elvis swarthmore edu user from wall cc swarthmore edu matthew wall newsgroups rec sport baseball subject triva question on bosio no hitter message id wall elvis swarthmore edu date apr gmt sender news cc swarthmore edu usenet news system followup to rec sport baseball organization hi matt and boston red sox fan lines nntp posting host elvis swarthmore edu don actually have the answer to this one bosio after walking the first two batters retired straight for back end perfect game how many other games including extra inning games have seen pitcher retire straight excluding official perfect games the only other instance of this know about for sure is the famous ernie shore game which counts as perfect one according to those goons in cooperstown shore came into the game when boston pitcher babe ruth got thrown out for arguing over the first batter walk shore picked him off and retired straight after that matt wall wall cc swarthmore edu hey gotta job here ok april boston red sox seize first place path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu msuinfo netnews upenn edu kkeller from kkeller mail sas upenn edu keith keller newsgroups rec sport baseball subject mattingly message id netnews upenn edu date apr gmt sender news netnews upenn edu organization university of pennsylvania school of arts and sciences lines nntp posting host mail sas upenn edu just to add to this vein consider that range of first baseman is not the only important thing he is imo the best fielder of bad throws from the other infielders have seen him scoop balls out of the dirt catch balls off large bounce take down balls over his head wide etc ad infinitum and he gets the out much of the time some of the things he does to save his infielders of errors are amazing you have to give mattingly credit for being able to do all of that while keeping his foot near the bag yes am sure he gets few calls because he is mattingly keith keller let go rangers kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs in this corner let go quakers weighing in at almost every weight imaginable life and all that surrounds it blues traveler newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net agate news ucdavis edu csus edu netcom com rudy from rudy netcom com rudy wade subject re bob vesterman plan to generate fan interest message id rudyc5ye7y jj6 netcom com organization home of the brave references rvesterm vma cc nd edu rd1 interlan com date fri apr gmt lines in article rd1 interlan com tonyf rm1 interlan com tony fernandez writes the marlins tried something like this and was complete failure on opening day instead of having th inning stretch with the singing of take me out to the ballgame they had some young women on the field lead the crowd into doing aerobics while the pa was playing gloria estefan get on your feet the fans actually booed and started singing take me out on their own actually kind of felt sorry for the girls are you kidding stuck with the toronto skydome where their idea of th inning stretch is that blue jays song where everyone gets to yell okay okay blue jays blue jays let play ball wow what genius did it take to compose that one to outshine the old classic and there are women on the field to lead the crowd then again this is the same crowd who is more entertained by the grounds crew and the word ground is used loosely than it is by the outstanding plays by the opponents fielders path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu msuinfo netnews upenn edu news cc swarthmore edu elvis swarthmore edu user from wall cc swarthmore edu matthew wall newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re yakult swallows japanese pro baseball team message id wall elvis swarthmore edu date apr gmt references gjc l5tr lab ntt jp lk jaf lab ntt jp f0v moqf lab ntt jp sender news cc swarthmore edu usenet news system followup to rec sport baseball soc culture japan distribution rec organization hi matt and boston red sox fan lines nntp posting host elvis swarthmore edu anyone have any idea how to get japanese league stats regularly in the us matt wall cc swarthmore edu in article f0v moqf lab ntt jp yajima nttcom ntt jp yajima hiroshi wrote tuesday game of beloved yakult swallows at jingu hanshin tigers beloved yakult ito nakagomi hr yakult arai st central league standing pct gb hiroshima carp chunichi dragons hanshin tigers hated giants beloved swallows yokohama baystars hiroshi yajima mail yajima nttcom ntt jp ntt network information systems laboratories midori cho chome musashino shi tokyo japan tel fax matt wall wall cc swarthmore edu hey gotta job here ok april boston red sox seize first place path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu msuinfo netnews upenn edu news cc swarthmore edu elvis swarthmore edu user from wall cc swarthmore edu matthew wall newsgroups rec sport baseball subject rules on line message id wall elvis swarthmore edu date apr gmt sender news cc swarthmore edu usenet news system followup to rec sport baseball organization hi matt and boston red sox fan lines nntp posting host elvis swarthmore edu well finally about to key in the official rules for the archives but before do will ask again does anybody have the official mlb rules in electronic format just trying to save myself ton of work no they don scan well because of the ridiculous format they re printed in thanks matt matt wall wall cc swarthmore edu hey gotta job here ok april boston red sox seize first place newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu emory europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu relay cogarmac nswc navy mil user from cogar g24mac1 nswc navy mil john cogar subject re indians pitching message id cogar cogarmac nswc navy mil followup to rec sport baseball sender news relay nswc navy mil organization nswcdd references apr23 bme ri ccf org apr199309564175 ariel lerc nasa gov date fri apr gmt lines in article apr199309564175 ariel lerc nasa gov ecaxron ariel lerc nasa gov ron graham wrote in article apr23 bme ri ccf org tknuth bio ri ccf org writes wow the tribe gave up more runs last night their era is and opponents are hitting against them the front office is excited about calling matt young up next week to join the rotation well excited doesn exactly mean happy in this case it means our contract says we have to bring him up by or release him and we need to find somebody someplace to do something until some of the injured pitchers recover and some of the young pitchers get ready so we best get move on ok so it not the primary definition so sue me rg lakewood pain allpaper all lerc statistical baseball league lakewood pain allpaper tomorrow heroes league little worried about this pitching thing is scarry even for the first games of the season mesa sp seems to be settling down he pitched well against the red soxs but the rocket matched him got chance to watch them play against california wednesday and he pitched well also then the dam broke wickander came in and promptly it was run homer by snow heard the guys on espn say that of the tribe top prospects are pitchers anyone out there like to post who these guys are and where they are the tribe is on espn again tonight against oakland john cogar always expect the worst cogar g24mac1 nswc navy mil join the cleveland sports fan society newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu emory europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu agate headwall stanford edu csd newshost stanford edu xenon stanford edu nlu from nlu xenon stanford edu nelson lu subject re why is barry bonds not batting th message id apr23 csd newshost stanford edu sender news csd newshost stanford edu organization computer science department stanford university references r6l7n oin apple com apr22 leland stanford edu r93di car apple com date fri apr gmt lines in article r93di car apple com chuq apple com chuq von rospach writes punjabi leland stanford edu sanjeev punjabi writes some evidence that is not working take look at the standings it real easy to get so focussed on minutinae and forget that the giants happen to be in first place if it working you don screw it up by changing things just because you think it ought to be different so that is the reason why the toronto blue jays should keep alfredo griffin just because it worked team winning doesn mean that everything that it doing is right team not winning doesn mean that everything that it doing is wrong or otherwise to borrow the sharks situation you would say that george kingston should be fired some folks like to argue about theoretical details prefer to watch teams win when the giants slip to third then we can talk about how to re arrange the batting order until then think it stupid to focus on what wrong for the simple fact that it working as it is by then it too late the problem with not fixing something while it working is that by then there may not be anything left to fix mostly though the giants are winning and frankly as long as that continues it rather silly to second guess their strategy but evidently some folks would rather be right than be first so the blue jays were simply perfect last year there was nothing that they could have done to have improved that team not go california angels nelson lu claudius leland stanford edu newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu emory europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu msuinfo uchinews att out cbnewsl jkl from jkl cbnewsl cb att com jon lyons subject re john franco organization at bell laboratories holmdel nj distribution na date fri apr gmt message id c5yf4q h4 cbnewsl cb att com references apr23 zeus calpoly edu lines jason lee asks what with john franco the mets are hardly using him heard he was completely recovered but now not so sure you must have heard wrong his arm is still sore he hasn gone on the dl but he may managmenet is treating him as day to day situation his doctors thought that he was ready and they had him throw in colorado but his arm wasn up to the strain he is throwing every day but he just not quite ready to pitch full strength yet this is based on an interview that he gave on wfan ny radio on thursday jon lyons jon lyons att com at bell laboratories att jon lyons path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel news udel edu darwin sura net gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu utnut torn news ccs queensu ca qucdn healey organization queen university at kingston date fri apr edt from healey qucdn queensu ca message id healey qucdn queensu ca newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re hbp bb big cat distribution na references qv9psinnsj6 lynx unm edu c5r7tv odin corp sgi com r6g60innban gap caltech edu apr22 adobe com lines the original poster wanted to know how the big cat looked was also at the saturday game in montreal apr that rockies won haven paid much attention to gallarraga since he left the expos but his stance seemed to be much different he stands more erect and very open with his left foot pointing to rd base wondering if this is recent change in stance for him andres had one glaring weakness as hitter he could always be fooled by curve ball low and away if this is indeed new stance for him maybe he is not being fooled as easily as for his patience dennis martinez definitely did not have his good stuff if he was grooving pitches to andres you can hardly fault him for drilling them which he did does andres generally start hot or cold does it take until may for most pitchers to have confidence in that curve ball low and away roger healey newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu gatech howland reston ans net usc sdd hp com hpscit sc hp com cupnews0 cup hp com news1 boi hp com rdetweil from rdetweil boi hp com richard detweiler subject cards mailing list update message id c5yi1k h62 boi hp com sender dick detweiler date fri apr gmt distribution usa organization hewlett packard boise printer division lines just wanted to let all the people who mailed me about possible cardinals mailing list that wasn able to get the ok to host the list here so someone else will have to do it many thanks to bob netherton for his helpful info dick detweiler path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester galileo cc rochester edu ub zaphod mps ohio state edu usc sdd hp com sgiblab pacbell com amdahl netcomsv netcom com rudy from rudy netcom com rudy wade newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re bases loaded walk gives reds win in message id rudyc5yf5r lfh netcom com date apr gmt references apr23 cs cornell edu mssc5y41d netcom com apr23 cs cornell edu organization home of the brave lines in article apr23 cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes in article mssc5y41d netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes quoted for future reference shown to be consistent in the past overall performance splits even matching hitting pitching styles all of these will give me some advantage if used properly was predicting the future the next ab he was predicting that sabo was more likely to get hit than samuel he believed one of two things sabo was more likely than samuel to get hit or that more good would be done in the long run by leaving sabo in regardless of the expectation of the actual outcome in fact you don know what perez had in mind when he left sabo in by supporting the swap you are predicting the opposite in fact don think anyone is claiming that they can predict the future or any particular future event but we can believe that certain trends are due to cause whether or not we have identified the cause and therefore will continue and am not dismissing your work stating my opinion you are saying that your work renders any opinion to the contrary invalid so that the retention of that opinion is some kind of insult to your work well yes you are aware of its existance you claim to be incapable of understanding it though suspect you are simply unwilling yet you rather forcefully state the opposite you don seem to think the work is worth reading yet you obviously feel the topic is important say this is insulting think seeing insults in other people opinions is kind of silly after all mark didn call you total idiot or call your work stupid he simply stated that it didn change his opinion on the subject did not say that it is consistent skill have said that it is an indicator of performance under certain set of circumstances right this is the beef it has not proven to be an indicator of future performance under any circumstances at least none that we ve been able to come up with if you know of some where it is an indicator of future performance please let us in on your secret if player hits better on tuesdays and always has and mark believes that it might be an indication that he will hit on tuesday better next season as well would you respond the same way at some point you might admit that all variable might not be known to you who knows what this guy does every monday night maybe he sees his sports shrink on tuesday mornings or has his vitamin shots monday nights but this is something that true of one guy only it doesn mean that there will be meaningful correlation for the entire league by days of the week nor that there should be but it doesn mean we can make predictions based on that for that particular player believe that by season end that chris sabo batting average in clutch situations will be significantly lower than his batting average in non clutch situations can prove that it will happen so guess we ll just have to wait and see is this simply prediction for chris sabo for this year or is this prediction for all batters who have over the past few years hit xxx amount worse in the clutch than overall only see prediction for one player here don see anything about all batters here another one for you in joe carter batting average in clutch situations was significantly below his batting average in non clutch situations each year presume you think this is random not going to get into case analysis sure you can find somebody who hit poorly from and then hit poorly in as well you can also find those who hit poorly from and then hit well in that exactly what mark is trying to do though find hitters that have these correlation and ask whether we can make predictions for these hitters based on their past performance major league ballplayers it just makes me think that in joe carter batting average in the clutch is not going to be as high as his ba in non clutch situations gambler fallacy unless there is reason to expect consistency huh what does gambler fallacy have to do with anything whether you can know the reason for correlation or not you can deny that it has existent you can only make an argument that you don think it is likely to continue to exist because you can see reason for it to exist run proves nothing can you give us reason to expect clutch ba to correlate from one year to the next ve seen detailed study of someone posted recently on why negative clutch would correlate the argument along the lines of star player with splits will always see an adverse condition in late innings of close game opposing manager will always bring in ah pitcher to face him where his manager will not pull him for ph don see how you can deny it as for total idiot yes if you prove yourself unwilling to even consider evidence that might suggest that you are wrong would say the term fits nicely so tell me does the term fit or do you have an open mind what about you if the shoe fits will you wear it with an open mind rudy newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel louie newsserver jvnc net howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu uchinews raistlin timbuk cray com mmc mmmg com sctc com macomber from macomber sctc com chuck macomber subject re twins update message id apr23 sctc com organization sctc references apr23 sctc com r97lcinngui uwm edu date fri apr gmt lines paul csd4 csd uwm edu paul krueger writes in article apr23 sctc com macomber sctc com chuck macomber writes wednesday game marked the first opposing left handed starting pitcher for the twins this year rickey bones nice post chuck but you made just one mistake bones is right handed pitcher however hrbek grand slam came off graehme lloyd lefty salty my mistake chuck newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu emory europa eng gtefsd com fs7 ece cmu edu pellns alleg edu news from luriem alleg edu michael lurie the liberalizer subject re winfield spot on the all time greats team message id apr23 alleg edu sender news alleg edu organization allegheny college references blue cis pitt edu date fri apr gmt lines in article blue cis pitt edu dtate pitt edu david tate writes in article c5wewd kto murdoch acc virginia edu drw3l delmarva evsc virginia edu david robert walker writes in article blue cis pitt edu dtate pitt edu david tate writes ielding rf of all time as far as anyone can tell did quick scan last night looking for players with peak comparable to or better than winfield in my quick dirty subjective judgement you could make good cases for ruth aaron ott robinson clemente kaline maris klein jackson waner and probably few others this is not knock on winfield but comment on his consistency all of those other players had awesome stretches and very good stretches while winfield has been more uniformly excellent hall of fame absolutely top peak not so sure top total career value yes almost certainly point taken when was winfield peak years anyway probably around newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu emory europa eng gtefsd com fs7 ece cmu edu pellns alleg edu news from luriem alleg edu michael lurie the liberalizer subject winfield has re sbs hrs message id apr23 alleg edu sender news alleg edu organization allegheny college references mjones fenway date fri apr gmt lines in article mjones fenway mjones fenway aix kingston ibm com mike jones writes dans fore csd sgi com dan steinman writes last night on the giants mets radio broadcast hank and ted were discussing the fact that there were only players who had ever hit homeruns and stolen bases in their career while hojo was batting anyone have list not as easy as it sounds to come up with all of them couldn mays mantle aaron henderson morgan bonds dad frank robinson molitor yount guessing now be interested to see the whole list first please watch your line lengths not everyone has autowrap second franklin to the rescue here the list player hr sb aaron mays frobinson rjackson winfield dawson baylor bobonds wynn strawberry morgan pinson yount kgibson sandberg players marked with an are still active numbers through that only the th is probably rickey henderson who was listed at hr sb or george brett listed as sb hr the surprises probably reggie bayor and wynn for steals maybe morgan to lot of people for homers was kind of surprised to realize that sandberg has that many steals though wasn surprised that the number was mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com dreams are real while they last can we say more of life havelock ellis newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet mcsun dxcern vxcrna cern ch bonvicin from bonvicin vxcrna cern ch subject re jack morris message id apr21 vxcrna cern ch sender news dxcern cern ch usenet news system organization cern european lab for particle physics date wed apr gmt lines franjion spot colorado edu john franjione writes valentine no not going to be cordial roger maynard is complete and total dickhead send me mail if you insist on details in fact he complete and total dickhead on at least newsgroups this one and rec sport hockey since hockey season is almost over he back to being dickhead in bb was in fact going to suggest that roger take his way of discussion over to football pro there this kind of hormone only reasoning is the standard being he canadian and hockey what it is would have suggested that would work too it is important in thread that everyone involved use the same body part to produce post brain being the organ of choice here bonvicini bonvicin cernvm cern ch path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu wupost uunet news news world net connected com beauty rwing eskimo stevet from stevet eskimo com steven thornton newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re babe pitching message id c5ts5u eskimo com date apr gmt references apr20 ns1 cc lehigh edu organization eskimo north eskimo com lines babe ruth lifetime pitching stats selected era cg sho rat best year bos era led league or bos era steve thornton stevet eskimo com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net wupost uunet news news world net connected com beauty rwing eskimo stevet from stevet eskimo com steven thornton newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re relative value of players message id c5tslt gu eskimo com date apr gmt references c5ro4h lww world std com organization eskimo north for ever lines kime apr20133127 mongoose torolab ibm com mjones fenway organization eskimo north eskimo com yeah morris just knows how to win that why he lost for detroit in funny how he wins lot of games when he pitches on good teams but loses lot when he pitches on bad ones and if rings was the only criteria for success then teams would always tend to repeat and eventually you have the same team win the ws every bleepin year sort of like the yanks in the morris is decent pitcher on the downside of good not great career toronto will finish rd or th this year with morris and all those rings because their pitching staff was destroyed over the off season steve thornton stevet eskimo com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net transfer stratus com usenet from jmann vineland pubs stratus com jim mann newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re all time peak players date apr gmt organization stratus computer inc marlboro ma lines message id r3dln oqm transfer stratus com references apr20 alleg edu reply to jmann vineland pubs stratus com nntp posting host gondolin pubs stratus com in article apr20 alleg edu luriem alleg edu michael lurie the liberalizer writes very interesting gehrig below bonds and schmidt ricky henderson he could steal bases but his hitting stats are not even close to dimmagio uhhhh where is winfield henderson stat are probably closer to dimaggio than you think jim mann stratus computer jmann vineland pubs stratus com newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net uunet digex com news intercon com psinntp asd com scott from scott asd com scott barman subject re box score abbrev woes message id apr20 asd com organization american software development corp west babylon ny references apr15 scott skidmore edu date tue apr gmt lines in article apr15 scott skidmore edu jrogoff scott skidmore edu jay rogoff writes can anybody figure out why some box score abbreviations make absolutely no sense at least in the local gannett rag that finds its way to my door must have stared at cleman in the mets box for good seconds this morning wondering who the hell it was wouldn it make more sense to use colemn ve seen it as colmn also blame the associated press after the official scorer balances the official score card they copy it and give it to several diffent people one of those is person from ap whose job it is to type it up using template on laptop and transmit it to the ap offices in new york rockefeller center via the telephone the box scores are not checked and just rebroadcasted over ap news delivery services if there are corrections those are issued later it is the person sitting in front of laptop at shea or whereever whose fault that is note the ap puts out boxscores in three different formats with the one you see in most newspapers being the first one last week they were in denver maybe the ap person in denver did this remember they just started with mlb out there check tomorrow paper and see if the person who is doing it from shea does the same thing scott barman mets mailing list feed the following into your shell scott asd com mail mets request asd com subscribe let go mets newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net uunet digex com news intercon com psinntp asd com scott from scott asd com scott barman subject re jewish baseball players message id apr20 asd com organization american software development corp west babylon ny references apr16 blurt oswego edu date tue apr gmt lines in article apr16 blurt oswego edu ma ind25 blurt oswego edu writes believe that rusty staub was also jewish ball player rust staub is not jewish in fact think his father was minister scott barman mets mailing list feed the following into your shell scott asd com mail mets request asd com subscribe let go mets newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net uunet digex com news intercon com psinntp asd com scott from scott asd com scott barman subject re jewish baseball players message id apr20 asd com organization american software development corp west babylon ny references blue cis pitt edu psm82b2w164w jwt oau org apr19 princeton edu date tue apr gmt lines in article apr19 princeton edu roger astro princeton edu roger lustig writes in article psm82b2w164w jwt oau org bbs comarow jwt oau org writes dave kingman is jewish sez who sez dave kingman when he used to take off for rosh hashanna and yom kippur on days they coincided with the season scott barman mets mailing list feed the following into your shell scott asd com mail mets request asd com subscribe let go mets newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net uunet digex com news intercon com psinntp asd com scott from scott asd com scott barman subject re new home for the bosox message id apr20 asd com organization american software development corp west babylon ny references qh3pu gh transfer stratus com apr15 scott skidmore edu date tue apr gmt lines in article apr15 scott skidmore edu jrogoff scott skidmore edu jay rogoff writes while we re on the multipurpose subject let not forget shea which was designed to accommodate both the mets jets it was the first stadium think to have the box seats on rollers so they could be oriented at right angles for baseball in parallel for football minor point shea stadium was designed as multi purpose stadium but not with the jets in mind as the tennant the new york football giants had moved to yankee stadium from the polo grounds in and was having problem with stadium management the city did not own yankee stadium until the idea was to get the giants to move into shea when deal was worked out between the giants and the yankees the new afl franchise the new york titans approached the city about using the new stadium the titans were playing in downing stadium where the cosmos played soccer in the because shea stadium was tied into the world fair anyway the city thought it would be novel idea to promote the new franchise and the world fair like they were doing with the mets so the deal was worked out of course with the jets gone to jersey and truly good football stadium the mets are saddled with multipurpose stadium where because it circular the seats are almost always too far from the action the mets announcers kiner murphy in particular have always hyped it as beautiful shea stadium tipoff to how unbeautiful it truly is under the impression that when murph says it he means it as regular goer to shea it is not bad place since they ve cleaned and renovated the place remember this is its th year scott barman mets mailing list feed the following into your shell scott asd com mail mets request asd com subscribe let go mets newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net bogus sura net udel news intercon com psinntp asd com scott from scott asd com scott barman subject re darrrrrrrrryl message id apr20 asd com organization american software development corp west babylon ny references apr15 acad drake edu apr16 alleg edu mssc5kcru ip netcom com date tue apr gmt lines in article mssc5kcru ip netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes that exuberance disappeared immediately however when strawberry went into tirade at the man all reports indicate he used lot of profanity and accused the man of interference and therefore of costing the dodgers game shortly afterwards other fans hurled food and beverages toward the man who made the catch dodger stadium officials started to remove him from the park but then relented and just relocated him to another area in an interview after the game lasorda blamed the fan for the loss strawberry also went into tirade about how the fans are stupid and they don care about winning times columnists similarly blasted the man who made the catch sounds like darryl being darryl tommy spending too much time on slim fast and needs pasta fix and the media being their usual charming selves sounds like new york like story to me saw the replay and am wondering what the big deal is didn realize the folks in la were making big to do about it think stawberry lasorda and the various media types should sit and watch the replay then apologize to the fan others have questioned why darryl should be so concerned with what the fan did when he has grand total of rbi through the first nine games darryl has not gotten off to good start he has to blame someone but guess the big debate continues as to what are the responsibilities of the fan as long as the fan doesn interfere with the play see no problems scott barman mets mailing list feed the following into your shell scott asd com mail mets request asd com subscribe let go mets path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net sol ctr columbia edu destroyer vela acs oakland edu vela acs oakland edu ragraca from ragraca vela acs oakland edu randy graca newsgroups rec sport baseball subject tigers win pitching duel yes it true date apr organization oakland university rochester michigan lines message id ragraca vela acs oakland edu nntp posting host vela acs oakland edu on cold damp night last night at tiger stadium dave wells david haas bob macdonald and mike henneman combined for victory over the texas rangers here are the highlights texas detroit wells gets the win he now with an era just under and henneman gets his third save in three chances ken rogers started for the rangers and gets the loss he was relieved by burns in the th the rangers got their only run on solo home run by dean palmer in the th the tigers opened the scoring with an rbi single by fryman in the rd then took the lead for good in the bottom of the seventh when whitaker greeted reliever burns with an rbi double which scored tettleton whitaker in turn crossed the plate on an rbi single by phillips who has been red hot for the third tiger run this afternoon it another battle of southpaws bill krueger for the tigers vs craig lefferts for the rangers randy toronto blue jay fans thanks for wells and macdonald those guys have really been big help to the tigers pitching staff path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net wupost uunet meaddata daves from daves meaddata com dave spencer newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re geronimo pena date apr gmt organization mead data central dayton oh lines distribution world message id r3ejr tb meaddata meaddata com references apr20 eagle wesleyan edu r20avinnb6q cronkite central sun com nntp posting host thetribe meaddata com in article r20avinnb6q cronkite central sun com bobn hawkwind central sun com bob netherton writes in article apr20 eagle wesleyan edu dhart eagle wesleyan edu writes hey ve noticed that luis alicea is starting at nd for the cardinals instead of geronimo pena is pena hurt or was he just benched for poor performance anyone know after quick start pena has been stuck in rut torre gave alicea the start to try to get pena out of whatever funk he is in it has worked in the past and it has worked again pena went for last night against colorado dave spencer mead data central miamisburg ohio ggggg oooo daves meaddata com gg ggggg oooo ttt rrr iii bbb eee rrr bbb eee rr iii bbb eee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net bogus sura net jhunix hcf jhu edu jhunix hcf jhu edu not for mail from pablo jhunix hcf jhu edu pablo iglesias newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re how to speed up games marginally realistic date apr organization johns hopkins university baltimore md usa lines sender pablo iglesias message id r3huvinniju jhunix hcf jhu edu nntp posting host jhunix hcf jhu edu in article pn27738 ll mit edu ejb ll mit edu ed baranoski writes in article apr20 vfl paramax com davidm gvls2 vfl paramax com david madden writes another pair of suggestions remove the balk rule it is the runners responsibility to stay safe no matter what the pitcher does quite honestly this one is ridiculous consider the following scenario runner on third as the pitcher starts to throw home the runner takes off for home and the batter squares around to bunt for the suicide squeeze the pitcher seeing this does not throw home but stops in mid action and puts the runner in run down it is the balk rule that prevents this from happening believe it or not this actually happened to me once in an oba ontario baseball association game in milton ontario was the batter and to my amazement the umpire missed it in the years that played ball this was worst piece of umpiring ever saw pablo iglesias pi ruth ece jhu edu newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net noc near net black clarku edu black clarku edu jxu from jxu black clarku edu dark wing duck subject bosox win again against seattle message id jxu black clarku edu organization clark university worcester ma date apr gmt lines last night boston red sox win its games of games by beating seattle roger clemson pitch not so dominate he walked at least man in first inns but valetin and greenwell hit homeruns and red sox prevail think that game is must win for red sox in seattle considering darwin will faced seattle ace randy johnson tonight newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net torn nott bnrgate bcars6a8 bnr ca bwalker from bwalker bnr ca barry walker subject re jack morris message id apr21 bcars6a8 bnr ca sender usenet bcars6a8 bnr ca use net nntp posting host bcarh37a organization bell northern research references apr18 mnemosyne cs du edu apr18 cs cornell edu apr19 newshub ariel yorku ca apr19 csd newshost stanford edu apr19 ramsey cs laurentian ca date wed apr gmt lines in article apr19 newshub ariel yorku ca cs902043 ariel yorku ca shawn luddington writes where did acker get ring from would have to say that they are about even believe acker got ring from his wife when they were married the blue jays had such strong offense don tell me that morris has this magical ability to cause the offensive players to score more runs don know why you guys keep bickering about morris the stats show he is mediocre pitcher at best this year is another case he just happened to win games saw many of his games last year he did pitch some good games but this crap about being clutch pitcher is nonsense he was constantly giving up go ahead runs in the th innings the clutch innings and the jays would somehow scrape win for him another major factor in his wins is that cito dont realize have bullpen gaston would leave morris in for ever therefore giving him many more chances to win games believe this is the major reason he won games last year barry walker bnr ottawa canada my opinions newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu utnut skule ecf epas scordova from scordova epas utoronto ca stephen cordova subject rusty religion organization university of toronto epas date wed apr gmt message id apr21 epas toronto edu references apr16 blurt oswego edu apr20 asd com sender news epas toronto edu usenet nntp posting host epas utoronto ca lines as recall from kieth hernandez auto biography rusty is devout roman catholic kieth and rusty would carpool to shea everyday but sunday when rusty would go to mass sc newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net news cac psu edu wintermute phys psu edu ra klinker from klinker itd nrl navy mil eric klinker subject re best homeruns message id c5u61d wu ra nrl navy mil sender usenet ra nrl navy mil organization naval research lab washington dc references apr18 virginia edu apr19 scott skidmore edu distribution rec date wed apr gmt lines the best one saw last year was willie mcgee off matthews think in phillie fierce line drive that was still rising when it hit the second deck facade at the vet willie mcgee had one homerun last year eric path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net bogus sura net udel gatech prism mm36 from mm36 prism gatech edu michael minardi newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re baseball in spanish message id hydra gatech edu date apr gmt references bu edu organization georgia institute of technology lines in article bu edu icop csa bu edu antonio pera writes recently heard the red sox on wrol spanish speaking radio station thought it was so unreal the red sox in spanish anyway want to find out how widespread this is being ny native know the scmets are on in spanish but not the yankmes wuold think that la sd texas and fla are on in spanish are there any spanish speaking networks or is this local the braves day games are broadcast is spanish on station called la favorita the station has daytime liscence only minardi michael georgia institute of technology atlanta georgia uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism mm36 internet mm36 prism gatech edu newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net bogus sura net udel rochester cornell tedward from tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer subject re bosox win again against seattle message id apr21 cs cornell edu organization cornell univ cs dept ithaca ny references jxu black clarku edu date wed apr gmt lines in article jxu black clarku edu jxu black clarku edu dark wing duck writes last night boston red sox win its games of games by beating seattle roger clemson pitch not so dominate he walked at least man in first inns be fair he did walk batters in ip he also allowed only three hits none for extra bases only one run pretty good outing all told think that game is must win for red sox in seattle considering darwin will faced seattle ace randy johnson tonight there is no such thing as must win game this early in the season and we can always hope that darwin pitches well cheers valentine path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester galileo cc rochester edu ub zaphod mps ohio state edu usc usc not for mail from pcaster mizar usc edu dodger newsgroups rec sport baseball subject todd worrell update message id r9p2e a0q mizar usc edu date apr gmt sender pcaster mizar usc edu organization university of southern california los angeles ca lines nntp posting host mizar usc edu according to an article in the la times todd worrell will not be ready to come off the dl list friday it sounds like he has had another set back in his come back at present he has stopped throwing the ball supposedly he had no velocity it doesn sound like there is any particular time table at this point for when he will be back dodger path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester galileo cc rochester edu ub zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net noc near net news cs brandeis edu chaos cs brandeis edu cuz from cuz chaos cs brandeis edu cousin it newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re hbp bb big cat message id cuz chaos cs brandeis edu date apr gmt references blue cis pitt edu mjones fenway c5w8ff eskimo com sender news news cs brandeis edu usenet news system organization who knows lines stevet eskimo com steven thornton writes the official mlb formula for obp is hits plus walks plus hit by pitch divided by at bats plus walks plus hit by pitch plus sacrifice flies sac bunts and errors have no effect source total baseball and they sure they might if an error is recorded on for example ground ball ie the batter would otherwise be out it is officially hitless at bat if it some other type of error greenwell lets single go by it doesn effect the obp but most errors are counted cuz newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc sdd hp com nigel msen com yale edu yale gumby destroyer news iastate edu dunix drake edu acad drake edu sbp002 from sbp002 acad drake edu subject wounded redbirds message id apr21 acad drake edu lines sender news dunix drake edu usenet news system nntp posting host acad drake edu organization drake university des moines iowa usa date wed apr gmt does anyone know the status of jeffries or arocha path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester galileo cc rochester edu ub zaphod mps ohio state edu swrinde network ucsd edu cogsci king from king cogsci ucsd edu jonathan king newsgroups rec sport baseball subject what does jeff king suck was second guessing the pirates summary jeff king is walking yikes message id r9pna fvc network ucsd edu date apr gmt references qfpkiib0bwxdrig3y9 transarc com sender king cogsci ucsd edu distribution na organization university of california san diego lines nntp posting host cogsci ucsd edu ken ziolkowski transarc com writes still hoping for season from the bucs but really wished they would have coughed up the to keep doug around actually was hoping for barry bonds oh well jeff king still sucks check this out from the latest mcweekly ba slg obp hr rbi jeff king jose lind first off jeff has had like hits in the last two games and walked yet again sorry ken but jeff king does have some power which means his slg won be below and his walks are way up if that increase is real jeff king will be an above average nl third baseman in jose lind on the other hand still doesn walk and clearly isn hitter my bet is that he won be getting any extra bases either once everybody starts pulling the lind shift we were seeing in the nl any predictions as to when he is sent to buffalo or released outright no although since the lavalliere weirdness nothing would really surprise me jeff king is currently in the top in the league in walks something is up jking path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net agate netsys pagesat olivea gossip pyramid com pyramid pyrnova mis pyramid com pcollac from pcollac pyrnova mis pyramid com paul collacchi newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re geronimo pena message id pyramid pyramid com date apr gmt references apr20 eagle wesleyan edu r20avinnb6q cronkite central sun com r3ejr tb meaddata meaddata com sender news pyramid pyramid com reply to pcollac pyrnova mis pyramid com paul collacchi distribution world organization pyramid technologies mt view california lines in article r3ejr tb meaddata meaddata com daves meaddata com dave spencer writes in article r20avinnb6q cronkite central sun com bobn hawkwind central sun com bob netherton writes in article apr20 eagle wesleyan edu dhart eagle wesleyan edu writes hey ve noticed that luis alicea is starting at nd for the cardinals instead of geronimo pena is pena hurt or was he just benched for poor performance anyone know after quick start pena has been stuck in rut torre gave alicea the start to try to get pena out of whatever funk he is in it has worked in the past and it has worked again pena went for last night against colorado without opening this up for sabermetric flame war would like to question the notion that sitting rested player down has any real effect on his long term performance sure if man is tired and needs real rest then taking break might be constructive act perhaps if man is mentally strained then sitting him down might help to the extent that that helps him relax but would like to suggest that in the long run players do slump and benching is probably irrelevant paul collacchi newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen uwm edu cs utexas edu swrinde elroy jpl nasa gov ncar catch the fever scd ucar edu baseball from baseball catch the fever scd ucar edu gregg walters subject re hbp bb big cat message id apr23 ncar ucar edu sender news ncar ucar edu usenet maintenance organization scientific computing divison ncar boulder co references r6g60innban gap caltech edu apr22 adobe com healey qucdn queensu ca distribution na date fri apr gmt lines in article of rec sport baseball healey qucdn queensu ca roger healey wrote the original poster wanted to know how the big cat looked was also at the saturday game in montreal apr that rockies won haven paid much attention to gallarraga since he left the expos but his stance seemed to be much different he stands more erect and very open with his left foot pointing to rd base wondering if this is recent change in stance for him andres had one glaring weakness as hitter he could always be fooled by curve ball low and away if this is indeed new stance for him maybe he is not being fooled as easily yes the stance is new don baylor was his batting coach at st louis last year and now as his manager is continuing to work with him maybe andres has weak left eye and the open stance gives him better look at the ball or maybe it is simply improving his mechanics dunno but the change seems to have enabled him to hit the ball as well as years ago his selectivity has not changed gregg baseball ncar ucar edu cr cr colorado rockies path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net agate spool mu edu news nd edu irishvma rvesterm organization university of notre dame office of univ computing date tue apr est from rvesterm vma cc nd edu message id rvesterm vma cc nd edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re jack morris references apr18 mnemosyne cs du edu apr18 cs cornell edu apr19 newshub ariel yorku ca apr19 cs cornell edu apr19 ramsey cs laurentian ca sdcc12 ucsd edu apr20 ramsey cs laurentian ca lines in article apr20 ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard says to say that one player is better than another is to be able to say ab solutely that player team would have played better with player in their lineup sheer speculation impossible to ascertain to take this to its er logical conclusion it is impossible to ascertain whether or not am better hitter than roberto alomar or better pitcher than juan guzman or better center fielder than devon white after all if were on the blue jays can you really prove that they wouldn have won the world series in both and while thank you mister maynard for your faith in my atheletic prowess can assure you that your faith is misplaced bob vesterman path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net spool mu edu news nd edu irishvma rvesterm organization university of notre dame office of univ computing date tue apr est from rvesterm vma cc nd edu message id rvesterm vma cc nd edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re usa mcweekly stats references franjion spot colorado edu rvesterm vma cc nd edu apr20 mnemosyne cs du edu lines in article apr20 mnemosyne cs du edu gspira nyx cs du edu greg spira says rvesterm vma cc nd edu writes in article franjion spot colorado edu franjion spot colorado edu john franjione says also have the impression from reading this group and bill james that elias is bunch of money grubbing jerks whose mission is to charge as much as they can for baseball statistical info and bill james is not yeah sure do you own the bill james players rating book uh bill james doesn sell statistics he sells books with statistics but he is not in the business of providing stats like elias stats howe baseball workshop etc are greg funny it seems to me that the stats major league and minor league handbooks which are nothing but collections of statistics are authored by bill james and stats inc and howe for the minor league handbook and am not sure how the bill james player ratings book qualifies as book with statistics while the elias analyst is statistics book the analyst contains more stats sure but it also contains more dialogue finally the point was not about the word statistics it was about money grubbing don see how anyone who has looked at the bill james player ratings book cannot consider him money grubbing bob vesterman path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net agate spool mu edu news nd edu irishvma rvesterm organization university of notre dame office of univ computing date tue apr est from rvesterm vma cc nd edu message id rvesterm vma cc nd edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject bob vesterman plan to generate fan interest lines the owners are whining about baseball not being popular among large enough portion of the population and have suggested various remedies such as shortening the game or trying to convince us that smoke embake emdominatebysheerintimidation is an accurate description of what is essentially laid back game forget those lame ideas here is my new and exciting two point plan to generate interest in baseball among the masses point one sex point two violence let face it sex and violence are the only things that sell in america here how we can implement them in the game sex cheerleaders cheerleaders and more cheerleaders dancing on top of the dugouts bringing hot dogs to the umps during the seventh inning stretch running up and down the stands the south bend white sox actually do this violence baseball players are such utter wuss boys the pitcher beans the batter and both benches empty in what is called bench clearing brawl everybody just stands there and looks at each other stand stand stand look look look ho hum then the bullpens come running in when they reach the fight they just stand there too anybody coming off the bench who does not throw at least one punch should be suspended and fined further the bullpens should fight it out in the outfield so as not to waste time and energy running to the infield football sex violence basketball sex violence hockey violence baseball da pastime of da nayshun yawn bob vesterman path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net agate spool mu edu news nd edu irishvma rvesterm organization university of notre dame office of univ computing date tue apr est from rvesterm vma cc nd edu message id rvesterm vma cc nd edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re yankee thoughts references apr20 clam com lines in article apr20 clam com sam steamer clam com sam mandelbaum says yes everyone seems to be in agreement that the yankees are finally moving in the right direction they should finish over this year and maybe even be in the pennent race in august however would take back few moves the jim abbott trade bleagh this was terrific trade snow will certainly be better than mattingly in the future but that they ll be about the same now is defensible opinion abbott is one of the few truly great pitchers in the game today wade boggs not sure about this one think that it good in that pre boggs kicks hayes meulens whoevers ass and that boggs still isn all that shabby it bad though that the yankees expect pre boggs and will probably get boggs however still play boggs over hayes or bam bam spike owen you have my full agreement here he not all that much better than velarde and silvestri is just about lock to be better than him however do enjoy the fact that spike is not nickname not that this helps the yankees danny tartabull strongly disagree much much rather have hundred games of tartabull and sixty games of dion james than games of james bob vesterman path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net spool mu edu news nd edu irishvma rvesterm organization university of notre dame office of univ computing date tue apr est from rvesterm vma cc nd edu message id rvesterm vma cc nd edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re best first basemen references apr20 tesla njit edu lines in article apr20 tesla njit edu drm6640 tesla njit edu says don mattingly is the best first baseman in the history of baseball always has been always will be why bob vesterman newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu malgudi oar net news ans net newsgate watson ibm com yktnews watson ibm com hawnews watson ibm com fenway mjones from mjones fenway aix kingston ibm com mike jones subject re how does pitcher get save sender news hawnews watson ibm com nntp news poster message id mjones fenway date fri apr gmt reply to mjones donald aix kingston ibm com disclaimer this posting represents the poster views not necessarily those of ibm references apr23 newshub ariel yorku ca apr23 bvc edu nntp posting host fenway aix kingston ibm com organization ibm aix esa development kingston ny lines mikef bvc edu writes in article apr23 newshub ariel yorku ca cs902060 ariel yorku ca geoffrey dias writes the subject line says it all what is the rule that qualifies pitcher as making save imho this is the most untrustworthy silly stat by today rules in all of baseball my understanding is to qualify as save pitcher cannot pitch more than three innings and the potential tying run must at least appear in the on deck circle also the lead pitcher enters with cannot excede three runs this is phenomenon known around work as ready fire aim am astounded at the number of times people post strong opinions about things they not only don understand but publicly admit to not understanding in fact there plausible argument that saves are more rational stat than wins for the record there are two ways that reliever can get save he must finish the game and either have entered the game with the tying run on base at bat or on deck have pitched at least three innings effectively pitcher may not get win and save in the same game believe that the official scorers must assert more of their authority in determining winners savers etc for instance pitcher can come in in the ninth with lead blow the lead fall behind have his team come back in the next half inning and earn the win has this pitcher earned win no way but this is an argument that wins is dumb stat not saves guy could pitch five strong innings of middle relief and see his teammates rally to tie the score assume he came in to start the fourth and left after the eighth his teammate holds the opposition scoreless in the ninth and they score run in the bottom of the ninth to win the third pitcher earns the win and the middle reliever gets no stat satisfaction this again doesn support your claim about saves at the beginning of your post mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com conceptual integrity is the most important consideration in system design frederick brooks jr the mythical man month newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet ulowell woods ulowell edu poiriera from poiriera woods ulowell edu subject re how does pitcher get save message id apr23 woods ulowell edu lines sender usenet ulowell ulowell edu news manager ulowell organization university of massachusetts lowell references apr23 newshub ariel yorku ca date fri apr gmt in article apr23 newshub ariel yorku ca cs902060 ariel yorku ca geoffrey dias writes the subject line says it all what is the rule that qualifies pitcher as making save as far as know save opportunity is when it is th inning or beyond and the batter on deck can either tie or win the ball game for example if it is the bottom of the th inning and clemens is pithching the red sox are leading and clemens has just givin up hit so there is man on first the batter and the batter on deck could tie the game with homer if jeff russel came in the red sox reliever and finished the game without allowing the tieing or losing run to score he would get the save and clemens would get the win thats how beleive it works hope could help the cowboy path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net usc sdd hp com news cs indiana edu bsu cs bsu ucs uucp mbstultz from mbstultz leo bsuvc bsu edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject dennis martinez what up message id apr23 bsu ucs date apr gmt organization ball state university muncie in univ computing svc lines know there been lot of talk about jack morris horrible start but what about dennis martinez last checked he with era is the ageless wonder finally showing his age does he usually start off the season so slowly know he plans to start tonight hope he comes around would appreciate any feedback concerning outlook on rest of dennis martinez season thanks in advance mike path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu msuinfo netnews upenn edu sepinwal from sepinwal mail sas upenn edu alan sepinwall newsgroups rec sport baseball subject ugliest stance was re ugliest swing message id netnews upenn edu date apr gmt references lsokpminni4u appserv eng sun com qtqvjinni6a hp col col hp com c5thz3 lr4 world std com sender news netnews upenn edu organization university of pennsylvania school of arts and sciences lines nntp posting host mail sas upenn edu in article c5thz3 lr4 world std com tac world std com tackey chan writes ugliest swing am not sure think the ugliset stance is jolio franco of the ranger wonder how that bat comes around in time to hit the ball it looks bad but hey it get the job done tac ugliest stance of all time has to go to oscar gamble the man would practically kneel in front of home plate in order to have small strike zone he just lucky that strike zone size isn determined by how big your afro is outta here like vladimir alan newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell tedward from tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer subject re winfield message id apr23 cs cornell edu organization cornell univ cs dept ithaca ny date fri apr gmt lines in article apr23 alleg edu luriem alleg edu michael lurie the liberalizer writes do you have better mail address mr lurie afraid can get the short version to work in any case on winfield yes his career ba is mere he didn beat this until his sixth year in the majors and has only topped it once since his peak was in the early and included some rather impressive seasons but then he also had other scattered great performances like and definitely not smooth career curve cheers valentine newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net agate netsys pagesat olivea isc br thor steveh from steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks subject re bosox go down in smoke seattle message id apr23 isc br isc br com summary bosox still falling and this time with no hits sender steve hendricks nntp posting host thor isc br com organization long suffering mariners fans inc references jxu black clarku edu apr22 galileo cc rochester edu date fri apr gmt lines in article apr22 galileo cc rochester edu ec003b uhura cc rochester edu wizard writes in jxu black clarku edu jxu black clarku edu dark wing duck writes just had to respond to the bosox boasts bosox win again see red sox fans can never do anything right in your mind huh if we get excited about the sox winning you tell us it is going to be over soon if we worry that it ll be over soon you say that we are not true fans am sox fan and think after what ive been through being sox fan that sox fans are true fans am excited at what they are doing so greenwell was horrible against johnson who cares the sox are with all non darwin starts what are the mariners think the sox have the best record in baseball still so they lost one darn johnson is quality pitcher and not the only quality mariner pitcher logged on expecting to see at least one congratulatory note for chris bosio no hitter but nary peep so ll take this opportunity to note that the red feet are now and slinking out of town without having scored run in the last two games or even hit in last night gem not that we fans can compare our suffering to those of the followers of new england long running tragedy but only one winning season in history is something of burden to bear so we ll take our joys when we can get em the mariners now have two no hit pitchers on the staff and not coincidentally those pitchers beat the red sox in back to back games jsh steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com one thing about data it sure does cut uucp uunet isc br thor steveh the bulls hofferbert ma bell path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net bogus sura net jhunix hcf jhu edu jhuvms hcf jhu edu doctor8 from doctor8 jhuvms hcf jhu edu jason abner miller newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re jewish baseball players date apr est organization the johns hopkins university hcf lines distribution na message id apr199311022237 jhuvms hcf jhu edu references blue cis pitt edu psm82b2w164w jwt oau org apr19 princeton edu apr20 asd com nntp posting host jhuvms hcf jhu edu news software vax vms vnews in article apr20 asd com scott asd com scott barman writes in article apr19 princeton edu roger astro princeton edu roger lustig writes in article psm82b2w164w jwt oau org bbs comarow jwt oau org writes dave kingman is jewish sez who sez dave kingman when he used to take off for rosh hashanna and yom kippur on days they coincided with the season the only problem is dave kingman was always taking off rosh hashana yom kippur easter the day elvis died the entire spring training month of ramadan purim the th of july both games that day my birthday ok during the world series he never had to play there memorial day both games that day guys help me out here ve run fresh out of holidays that coincide with the baseball season and trying to catalogue all the days in his career that dave kingman or at least his bat went awol complete religious calendar detailing every holiday in every extant religion in the western hemisphere would be appreciated only then can we truly be certain that dave kingman observed every holiday ever conceived of course not scott barman mets mailing list feed the following into your shell scott asd com mail mets request asd com subscribe let go mets jason miller some doctor guy frank tanana win newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu tamsun tamu edu inetg1 rafael kmelcher from kmelcher rafael arco com kenneth melcher subject re juan gonzalez hr title not real message id apr23 arco com sender news arco com reply to kmelcher rafael arco com organization arco exploration and production technology references r73k2innj8p lynx unm edu date fri apr gmt lines come back ten years from now and look at the careers of juan gonzalez vs mark mcguire and then tell us how bogus the juanderful one hr title was say that by juan will be preparing his hof acceptance speech while the voters will be saying mark mcwho ken melcher am typing real slow because mail kmelcher arco com know you can read very fast path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net bogus sura net jhunix hcf jhu edu jhuvms hcf jhu edu doctor8 from doctor8 jhuvms hcf jhu edu jason abner miller newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re ugliest stance was re ugliest swing date apr est organization the johns hopkins university hcf lines distribution na message id apr199311075550 jhuvms hcf jhu edu references lsokpminni4u appserv eng sun com qtqvjinni6a hp col col hp com c5thz3 lr4 world std com netnews upenn edu nntp posting host jhuvms hcf jhu edu news software vax vms vnews alan all in all it just another sepinwall writes ugliest stance of all time has to go to oscar gamble the man would practically kneel in front of home plate in order to have small strike zone he just lucky that strike zone size isn determined by how big your afro is agree however have to object growing up in the early and playing years of mario mendoza esque little league was told that since my hitting well sucked would do best to either walk or take one in the face for the team did both and my yankee fan father would say bat like oscar gamble so did and my career obp was about not only was oscar fun guy to watch but he had some pretty cool baseball cards and helped me become one of the best little league players in history outta here like vladimir alan jason miller some doctor guy frank tanana win path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net agate jtchern from jtchern ocf berkeley edu joseph hernandez newsgroups rec sport baseball subject mlb standings and scores for wed apr st date apr gmt organization jtc enterprises sports division major league baseball dept lines distribution world message id r3p00 agate berkeley edu nntp posting host monsoon ether berkeley edu keywords mlb mlb standings and scores for wednesday april st including yesterday games national west won lost pct gb last streak home road san francisco giants won houston astros lost atlanta braves won los angeles dodgers lost san diego padres lost colorado rockies lost cincinnati reds won national east philadelphia phillies won st louis cardinals won chicago cubs won montreal expos won pittsburgh pirates lost new york mets lost florida marlins lost american west won lost pct gb last streak home road texas rangers lost california angels won minnesota twins won chicago white sox won oakland athletics won seattle mariners lost kansas city royals won american east boston red sox won detroit tigers won toronto blue jays lost new york yankees lost milwaukee brewers lost cleveland indians lost baltimore orioles lost yesterday scores idle teams listed in alphabetical order national league american league houston astros chicago white sox chicago cubs baltimore orioles los angeles dodgers texas rangers montreal expos detroit tigers cincinnati reds milwaukee brewers pittsburgh pirates minnesota twins atlanta braves toronto blue jays florida marlins kansas city royals san diego padres cleveland indians philadelphia phillies california angels san francisco giants new york yankees new york mets oakland athletics colorado rockies boston red sox st louis cardinals seattle mariners joseph hernandez rams lakers jtchern ocf berkeley edu kings dodgers raiders jtcent soda berkeley edu angels clippers path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net gatech emory news feed peachnet edu bogus sura net jhunix hcf jhu edu jhuvms hcf jhu edu doctor8 from doctor8 jhuvms hcf jhu edu jason abner miller newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re john franco date apr est organization the johns hopkins university hcf lines distribution na message id apr199319583452 jhuvms hcf jhu edu references apr23 zeus calpoly edu nntp posting host jhuvms hcf jhu edu news software vax vms vnews in article apr23 zeus calpoly edu jplee cymbal calpoly edu jason lee writes what with john franco the mets are hardly using him don worry this is perfectly normal state of affairs had they actually been using him you should be worried heard he was completely recovered but now not so sure he recovered totally from his injury that why he not pitching so he can rest his arm enough that he can get injured again pitching on days rest and then have fun dining in the diamond club in shea stadium while ay struggles every day out there if there is anybody out there with information about franco would appreciate it if you could drop me line ve be quite happy to drop john franco just the same bring back randy myers no better make that bring back neil allen jason lee jplee oboe calpoly edu jlee cash busfac calpoly edu sf giants pi the most beautiful equation in mathematics magic for all sad words of tongue and pen the saddest are these number it might have been john greenleaf whittier jason miller some doctor guy tanana newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu wupost csus edu netcom com mss from mss netcom com mark singer subject re bases loaded walk gives reds win in message id mssc5yl30 cjj netcom com organization netcom online communications services login guest references apr23 cs cornell edu mssc5y41d netcom com apr23 cs cornell edu date fri apr gmt lines in article apr23 cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes in article mssc5y41d netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes in article apr23 cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes for predicting the future it has been entirely meaningless at least if it has meaning we don know how to find it did not say could predict the future you most certainly did really don want to get into didso didnot debate with you but this is somewhat at the heart of our disagreement did not say nor did imply that could predict the future you have inferred that my comments meant this and you have based your rebuttal of my comments on the fact that statistical studies have demonstrated that there is no reasonable basis for predicting future performance in regard to clutch hitting sabo samuel sabo is clearly better hitter than samuel yet you would pinch hit samuel because you predict that samuel will be clutch hitter and sabo will be choke hitter right call that predicting the future that is your opinion that sabo is clearly better hitter than samuel the above data is for year period ending last season last season samuel batted while sabo hit not park adjusted this season they are both hitting below albeit sabo with more at bats will agree that over his career sabo has been better hitter than samuel but will also remind you that samuel has been better hitter in certain situations than sabo did not predict that sabo would choke nor that samuel would get hit expressed my opinion that had been the reds manager or even reds fan that would prefer to have samuel hit in that situation than sabo if you were to have been the reds manager at that time assume you would have had some basis for letting sabo hit rather than pinch hitting samuel sure some of that basis would have utilized prior performance you just wouldn have used this particular aspect of prior performance is this not correct right would have used aspects of prior performance which have been shown to be consistent in the past overall performance splits even matching hitting pitching styles all of these will give me some advantage if used properly ah properly yes see even if all else were equal there would be no advantage gained by looking at past clutch performance and in this case everything else pointed to sabo please help me what exactly is everything else that pointed to sabo well yes you are aware of its existance you claim to be incapable of understanding it though suspect you are simply unwilling yet you rather forcefully state the opposite you don seem to think the work is worth reading yet you obviously feel the topic is important say this is insulting must say was not aware of the publication can you email me the information regarding its availability and guess must apologize to all of those who have done extensive study on say supply side economics didn mean to insult you but never did believe you were on the right path sorry for my contrary opinion position also regret that don have the ability to prove that you are wrong but you are believe that by season end that chris sabo batting average in clutch situations will be significantly lower than his batting average in non clutch situations can prove that it will happen so guess we ll just have to wait and see is this simply prediction for chris sabo for this year or is this prediction for all batters who have over the past few years hit xxx amount worse in the clutch than overall it is what it says it is if you mean the first then as you say we ll just have to wait and see but the second is much stronger statement in fact it suggests rule we can then test this rule on past data to see if it worked for recent years think you will agree that if the rule didn work last year or the year before that it is unlikely to do any better this year right the second is your statement not mine not going to get into case analysis sure you can find somebody who hit poorly from and then hit poorly in as well you can also find those who hit poorly from and then hit well in well actually haven yet but not finished looking that is haven yet found someone who hit significantly below his overall batting average in clutch situations for the years and then reversed that relationship in gambler fallacy unless there is reason to expect consistency run proves nothing can you give us reason to expect clutch ba to correlate from one year to the next ve seen detailed study of why shouldn expect it to correlate nope sorry but if you were interested in reason why expect chris sabo ability to hit in the clutch to correlate from one year to the next think could if you were interested in reason why expect joe carter ability to hit in the clutch to correlate from one year to the next think could but you re not interested in that because you think that those conclusions could only be valid if they could be extrapolated over the entire baseball population and they can be the stupid was in reference to statement which was stupid and don see how you can deny it as for total idiot yes if you prove yourself unwilling to even consider evidence that might suggest that you are wrong would say the term fits nicely the problem here is that do believe you accept your work believe that trying to predict future clutch performance based on prior clutch history is meaningless no better than coin toss actually do accept your work as it happens also have an opinion that in certain situations for certain players history of superior or inferior ability to hit in the clutch might suggest reason what such history could be valid in projecting future player performance for that player and chris sabo is one such player so tell me does the term fit or do you have an open mind well since defer to your statistical wisdom think must have an open mind now we have to pose the same question to you the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net agate news ucdavis edu csus edu netcom com mss from mss netcom com mark singer subject re bases loaded walk gives reds win in message id mssc5ylq6 d5o netcom com organization netcom online communications services login guest references c5xwai nu news cso uiuc edu mssc5y5u0 dn netcom com apr23 cs cornell edu date fri apr gmt lines in article apr23 cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes in article mssc5y5u0 dn netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes my supposition is that if we were to find the same players consistently year after year at one end of the bell or the other then we might be able to make some reasonable conclusions about those players as opposed to all baseball players this may be the root of the confusion please consider the following hypothetical with an open mind note that am not yet saying that it has anything to do with the question at hand suppose we have simplified lotto game detailed explanation deleted indeed you have struck right at the heart of our disagreement to rebut my opinion you have made an analogy with game of chance your hypothesis assumes that the lotto players have no impact on the selection of the numbers and hence their ability to win well that certainly true in lotto but it has absolutely nothing to do with the sport of baseball when you start down the wrong path you finish down the wrong path repeat do not think that statistical analysis of prior clutch hitting performance is an accurate predictor of future clutch hitting performance do however think that analysis of prior clutch hitting performance may for some players indicate deficiency in their game that indeed will provide basis for projecting their particular future performance and think chris sabo is such player the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu swrinde elroy jpl nasa gov nntp server caltech edu daplurad from daplurad ugcs caltech edu david plurad newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re some baseball trivia date apr gmt organization caltech undergraduate computer science lines message id ra18binnt31 gap caltech edu references texdude cs1 bradley edu nntp posting host molest ugcs caltech edu in article texdude cs1 bradley edu texdude cs1 bradley edu philip allen writes who holds the record for most career strikeouts while playing for one team who holds the record for most career strikeouts for the rangers hint nolan ryan isn either what two pitchers have over career saves for two different teams who is the only player to hit or more career home runs and steal or more career bases for the same team no fair peeking at your baseball stats phil allen texdude cs1 bradley edu ll post my guesses to some of these and other trivia questions posted for most career with one team if it not ryan perhaps steve carlton with the rangers hough was there for long time in the saves department maybe lee smith he should have at least hundred with the cubbies maybe enough with either the rsox or cards then maybe gossage nyy and sd fingers mil oak don know about the homers steals dept in some other article mets trivia it could be tim leary in at least the losing to all teams maybe beating all of em too probably seaver and koosman fit too and in randy johnson no hitter think it was scott bradley the other half of the old mariner catching platoon who was behind the plate that night david plurad newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel news intercon com psinntp asd com scott from scott asd com scott barman subject re jewish baseball players message id apr16 asd com organization american software development corp west babylon ny references apr93 lafibm lafayette edu date fri apr gmt lines in article apr93 lafibm lafayette edu vb30 lafibm lafayette edu vb30 writes just wondering friend and were talking the other day and we were for some reason trying to come up with names of jewish baseball players past and present we weren able to come up with much except for sandy koufax somebody stankowitz and maybe john lowenstein can anyone come up with any more know it sounds pretty lame to be racking our brains over this but humor us thanks for your help wasn ron bloomberg the former yankee who got the first base hit by designated hitter jewish scott barman mets mailing list feed the following into your shell scott asd com mail mets request asd com subscribe let go mets newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel news intercon com psinntp asd com scott from scott asd com scott barman subject re jewish baseball players message id apr16 asd com organization american software development corp west babylon ny references apr93 lafibm lafayette edu date fri apr gmt lines in article apr93 lafibm lafayette edu vb30 lafibm lafayette edu vb30 writes just wondering friend and were talking the other day and we were for some reason trying to come up with names of jewish baseball players past and present we weren able to come up with much except for sandy koufax somebody stankowitz and maybe john lowenstein can anyone come up with any more know it sounds pretty lame to be racking our brains over this but humor us thanks for your help oh forgot art shamsky former red and mets player batted between injuries in fell short of qualifying for top because of injuries and platoon with ron swoboda no swobo wasn jewish scott barman mets mailing list feed the following into your shell scott asd com mail mets request asd com subscribe let go mets xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec sport baseball fantasy rec sport baseball newsgroups rec sport baseball fantasy rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel news intercon com psinntp asd com scott from scott asd com scott barman subject re sid fernandez message id apr16 asd com organization american software development corp west babylon ny references apr15 csi jpl nasa gov distribution usa date fri apr gmt lines in article apr15 csi jpl nasa gov cub csi jpl nasa gov ray miller writes read this morning that sid fernandez left last nights game with stiffness in his shoulder does anyone have any information as to the extent of the injury if indeed there is one or weather the cold air in colorado just got his joints little stiff thanks for the help all they said on the radio that he developed stiffness in the shoulder after throwing curveball that didn loosen because of the cold night in denver they decided to remove him from the game rather than let him pitch he is expected to pitch his next turn in the rotation expected to be april at shea vs the giants scott barman mets mailing list feed the following into your shell scott asd com mail mets request asd com subscribe let go mets path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net spool mu edu enterpoop mit edu senator bedfellow mit edu athena mit edu cmk from cmk athena mit edu charles kozierok newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re best homeruns date apr gmt organization massachusetts institute of technology lines message id qn6tqinnmnf senator bedfellow mit edu references c568a3 e1r cs dal ca hpcc01 corp hp com apr16 osf org nntp posting host electric monk mit edu in article apr16 osf org dswartz osf org dan swartzendruber writes in article hpcc01 corp hp com boell hpcc01 corp hp com donald boell writes have to say the most impressive hrs ve ever see came from dave kingman and his infamous moon raker drives remember one he hit circa at wrigley field that went across the street in dead center field and hit house on the roof he whiffed lot but when he did connect watch out the best home run have ever seen came off believe it or not roger clemens sorry val couple of years ago he threw ball to incaviglia which was literally at inky neck and he absolutely hammered the crap out of it after the swing clemens nonchalantly motioned for new ball he didn even turn around to look or even get upset the ball hit the lights in the left field standard some or so feet about the green monster over feet above the ground total truly an amazing shot charles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu swrinde gatech concert duke news duke edu keynes econ duke edu fls from fls keynes econ duke edu forrest smith newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re braves pitching updatedir message id news duke edu date apr gmt references apr15 adobe com apr15 acad drake edu apr16 adobe com sender news news duke edu organization duke university durham lines nntp posting host keynes econ duke edu amazingly pitchers no matter how good their mechanics are not machines cy young winners don pitch in vaccuum unaware of how their offenses are doing the braves pitching staff is already showing signs of cracking under the strain of knowing they re not going to get many if any runs unfortunately the braves pitchers were so bad for so long that the organization put so much stress and mean stress on pitching that they completely ignored hitting the braves right now are looking woefully similar to the braves of the mid seventies heaven help us econ duke edu fls econ duke edu fls econ duke edu fls econ duke to my correspondents my email has been changed my new address is fls econ duke edu if mail bounces try fls raphael acpub duke edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu swrinde gatech concert duke news duke edu keynes econ duke edu fls from fls keynes econ duke edu forrest smith newsgroups rec sport baseball subject braves stoppers message id news duke edu date apr gmt sender news news duke edu organization duke university durham lines nntp posting host keynes econ duke edu the term stopper is generally used to refer to pitcher one who can be counted on to pitch strong game to keep his team from going on losing streak the braves have plenty of pitchers to fit this description although right now expect smoltz or glavine to take the mantle what the braves lack however is an offensive stopper somebody they can look to to bring them out of their hitting slump there just no one there the braves got rid of their best pure hitter lonnie smith and only terry pendleton on the current roster has ever shown more than cursory ability to hit oh and another thing that worries me ron gant seems to have slowed down step that scary slow ron gant doesn have much going for him econ duke edu fls econ duke edu fls econ duke edu fls econ duke to my correspondents my email has been changed my new address is fls econ duke edu if mail bounces try fls raphael acpub duke edu newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu usenet ucs indiana edu news from dwarner journalism indiana edu david subject re omar vizquel grand salami message id c5lh31 dhz usenet ucs indiana edu sender news usenet ucs indiana edu usenet news system nntp posting host clove journalism indiana edu reply to dwarner journalism indiana edu organization indiana university references hplsla hp com date fri apr gmt lines cheryl marks writes do you think omar grand slam is the result of his new fan club last week banner appeared in the kingdome older women for omar that depends just how much older were they cheryl david dwarner journalism indiana edu blue riddle productions it on the rap is an art ep is coming out on tape this time for real mail me for the newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net news ans net newsgate watson ibm com yktnews watson ibm com eclipse kime from kime mongoose torolab ibm com edward kim subject re ind source picks baerga over alomar case closed sender usenet eclipse torolab ibm com eclipse sysadm message id kime apr16164443 mongoose torolab ibm com in reply to tedward cs cornell edu message of fri apr gmt date fri apr gmt distribution na lines references apr15 island com c5l6dn ub andy bgsu edu apr16 cs cornell edu organization ibm toronto lab that joke alomar might not be gold glover but he certainly no worse than baerga defensively actually alomar is two time gold glover valentine edk newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net sol ctr columbia edu usenet ucs indiana edu news from dwarner journalism indiana edu david subject mlb message id c5lhja eil usenet ucs indiana edu sender news usenet ucs indiana edu usenet news system nntp posting host clove journalism indiana edu reply to dwarner journalism indiana edu organization indiana university date fri apr gmt lines could some kind soul out there mail me the on where can find the mlb program interested in some road trips this year david dwarner journalism indiana edu blue riddle productions it on the rap is an art ep is coming out on tape this time for real mail me for the path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net sol ctr columbia edu usenet ucs indiana edu master cs rose hulman edu master cs rose hulman edu news from rickert nextwork rose hulman edu john rickert newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re gotta question date apr gmt organization computer science department at rose hulman lines distribution usa message id qn74ninn8tm master cs rose hulman edu references sdcc12 ucsd edu reply to rickert nextwork rose hulman edu john rickert nntp posting host g215a nextwork rose hulman edu in article sdcc12 ucsd edu demers cs ucsd edu david demers writes in article cjkuo symantec com cjkuo symantec com jimmy kuo writes gt0523e prism gatech edu michael andre mule writes what is the maximum runs allowed before stopper can get credit for relief if stopper comes in with run lead does he getcredit with the save if you come in and pitch the last three innings and your team was ahead when you got out there and wins the game you get save sort correct if you pitched at least innings entered with your team in the lead was the pitcher when the game ended the game was never tied during your stint and your team won you get save well the rulebook says that in the opinion of the scorer you must have pitched effectively for your innings this save is not automatic unlike the others someone in sabr actually looked at these games few years ago and found that the official scorer awarded the save in every one of the games even those in which the pitcher had pitched badly allowing or runs seeing hearing my two sense worth john rickert rickert nextwork rose hulman edu newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell tedward from tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer subject re sandberg runs rbis was re notes on jays vs indians series message id apr16 cs cornell edu organization cornell univ cs dept ithaca ny references c5jm0m jw cs dal ca c5jqby m7a news rich bnr ca apr16 princeton edu distribution na date fri apr gmt lines in article apr16 princeton edu roger astro princeton edu roger lustig writes right so who cares which player gets credited as long as the team gets more runs if player helps the team get more and rbi but doesn score them all himself who cares amusing isn it seems only the sdcns realize how much baseball is team game combining efforts from every player for the win consider the red sox game last night the sox won in the bottom of the th who won the game clemens pitched strong nine innings allowing only two runs ryan pitched couple shutout innings though he needed some excellent defensive plays behind him to do so quantrill pitched couple of innings gave up the go ahead run and got credited with the win when the sox scored two in the bottom of the inning looks like team effort to me yet only quantrill got credit for the win how about the offense dawson and vaughn hit think hrs early in the game without either one the sox would have lost in nine quintana led off the th with solid single zupcic pinch ran for quintana providing the speed to go from first to third when cooper ripped second single in the inning melvin avoided the dp getting the run home with sac fly not much of help but it was something scrub richardson then hit double scoring the speedy cooper all the way from first hill lack of defense helped cooper and zupcic were credited with runs melvin and richardson were credited with rbis but it seems to me that it was quintana hit that set up the whole inning and did melvin really contribute as much as richardson furthermore people seem to consider rbis to be more significant than runs did melvin contribute more than cooper cooper provided the game winning baserunner and moved the tying run to third base with only one out assigning credit based on runs and rbis is clearly ridiculous you can argue that obp and slg don show you who came through in the clutch but rbi don do any better at least obp and slg don claim to try to tell you that here to the red sox who contributed to last night victory all of them valentine newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu uunet island fester from fester island com mike fester subject re white and black racism was about the phillies message id apr21 island com sender usenet island com the usenet mail target organization usr local rn organization references qf1j9 b56 network ucsd edu apr14 island com quonm network ucsd edu distribution na date wed apr gmt lines in article quonm network ucsd edu king cogsci ucsd edu jonathan king writes there too many here for my taste by now which means ve reached my maximum depth on this thread ve cut out some things below but nothing that should affect the sense of the discussion agree ll delete more as well fester island com mike fester writes king cogsci ucsd edu jonathan king writes perhaps you can give more recent citation of any player mentioned as malingerer thanks guess don understand your question was trying to imply that the accusations of glenn davis malingering were certainly not played up very much still if the whispers reached san francisco it is certainly possible they were stronger elsewhere also it was teammates making the aspersions in any event know of no other player to be maligned in the last couple years but in any case believe mike lavalliere has been accused of poor work habits and general sloth recently probably not malingering just as he was being released it interesting that nobody heard much about these problems before if they were so important have heard sanders called many things as well have not heard him called lazy given the sport phenomenon it would be difficult to label him as such exactly so which means his media detractors have had to say other things about him believe it general phenomenon that if writers don like you they ll find label that will stick no matter who you are find myself more interested in the selection of labels than in why writers feel they need to act this way not that this fascinates me that much either uh the original author point was that black and white players were por trayed differently by the media and towards this he gave highly selected list to prove his case sanders name showed up eventually dispute that sanders has ever been called lazy by the media hmm big ego possible club house disturbance etc is that good press no but it isn the total extent of the press he received in pittsburgh where he was called all kinds of things including lazy and spoiled by the local columnists again the actual words used may shift around with time and expediency but lazy tends to be higher on the list for non white players at least in my subjective opinion aside it might be interesting for somebody to do an archival study on player descriptions before and after the color barrier was broken and on teams like the red sox which have been traditionally white nowadays most people think of carl yastrzemski as one of those blue collar hard working guys but in the early he was often portrayed as lazy bum really hmm never heard anyone accuse canseco of being lazy nor sierra ve heard accusations that canseco was bad fielder but could be great one if he put his mind to it ignoring whether or not he is actually dave stewart is was one of the most vocal about this in any event that is not lazy at least one poster in the last week has fired off major screed on the canseco is lazy issue so think your point is at best quibble and probably weaker than that uh that poster specifically stated allow me to be the first it is not quibble then to state that the media did not portray canseco as being lazy if the other person chooses to so accuse him after my post that does not make it quibble and in fact the media around here tend ed to play up his time in the wieght room hardly lazy and hardly quibble have you ever seen any mediot portray canseco as lazy unconcerned with his fielding yes lazy no bad fielder think this is still interesting for that matter think canseco colorful off field antics get lots more national attention than those of say roger clemens well he had few more of them at least more that you ve heard about think one of the questions here surrounds selective reporting having said that have to say that the selective reporting hypothesis has the potential to be unfalsifiable at least by those of us who aren reporters police or private investigators well canseco has been involved in several felonies including his high speed record carrying concealed fire arms and of course the domestic violence clemens had run in at bar canseco had that as well and in both cases the coverage was relatively minimal puckett stewart jackson said over represent non whites three anecdotal data points don make an interesting counter argument btw which jackson are we talking about here reggie bo darrin danny or uh if the only evidence offered is anecdotal how can it be objected that the counter to it is also anecdotal and it seems like everybody who has ever won batting title among others has been accused at some time of caring more for his own stats than for the good of the team it also seems to me that you re kirby puckett have never heard this accusation made of puckett have heard it of boggs actually believe it of him but that another matter not living in minnesota can say whether or not this line has ever been used against kirby there as far as boggs goes not sure why you bring him up since he one of the obvious prototypes for the line quoted along with ted williams rod carew and many others uh yes and agree with your assesment of boggs rather specifically however you did say everybody who has ever won batting title has been accused of selfishness have not ever anywhere heard this said of puckett pendleton either similarly brett williams and others how about daryl strawberry and think the plus or minus refers more to the born again types ie butler and gaetti again you seem to be making an argument from anecdotes on the other hand my argument by is of the because jon says so variety if we have no other data have to admit have problems generating lists of non white players who became in famous for their religious or political beliefs while names like butler gaetti dravecky knepper hersheiser et al come rolling out there are others perhaps they are simply not as outspoken except in the case of the born again types mention mike path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech rutgers njitgw njit edu tesla njit edu drm6640 from drm6640 tesla njit edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re re all time best players message id apr21 tesla njit edu date apr gmt sender news njit edu organization new jersey institute of technology lines nntp posting host tesla career don mattingly newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu psuvax1 news cc swarthmore edu behrens cc swarthmore edu from behrens cc swarthmore edu eric behrens subject the babe the pride of the yankees message id c5uc4l bnv cc swarthmore edu sender news cc swarthmore edu usenet news system nntp posting host mac11 beardsley swarthmore edu organization swarthmore college date wed apr gmt lines the babe and the pride of the yankees offer very different renditions of the sotry about ruth and gherig hitting home runs for the boy in the hospital can some historian out there explain history version of the story wouldn put is past either or both of the movies to season the truth with little extra spice any other comments as to inaccuracies in these two movies eric behrens behrens cc swarthmore edu walk through hell in gasoline suit to keep playing baseball pete rose newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech purdue mentor cc purdue edu sage cc purdue edu talavage from talavage sage cc purdue edu tom talavage subject re some baseball trivia message id c5yu2r t9 mentor cc purdue edu sender news mentor cc purdue edu usenet news organization purdue university computing center references texdude cs1 bradley edu ra18binnt31 gap caltech edu date sat apr gmt lines in article ra18binnt31 gap caltech edu daplurad ugcs caltech edu david plurad writes in article texdude cs1 bradley edu texdude cs1 bradley edu philip allen writes who holds the record for most career strikeouts while playing for one team who holds the record for most career strikeouts for the rangers hint nolan ryan isn either what two pitchers have over career saves for two different teams who is the only player to hit or more career home runs and steal or more career bases for the same team no fair peeking at your baseball stats phil allen texdude cs1 bradley edu ll post my guesses to some of these and other trivia questions posted for most career with one team if it not ryan perhaps steve carlton no way gotta be walter johnson all were with washington carlton spent too long in st louis to collect less than there with the rangers hough was there for long time also guess hough due to his length of tenure though suspect bobby witt wasn far behind maybe even jenkins snuck in close in the saves department maybe lee smith he should have at least hundred with the cubbies maybe enough with either the rsox or cards then maybe gossage nyy and sd fingers mil oak fingers had to have achieved with either mil or with sd so yes go with that guess otherwise was thinking that reardon has better chance of having with min along with would think easily reaching with mon don know about the homers steals dept gotta be willie mays am fairly sure he had over steals in his career in some other article mets trivia it could be tim leary in at least the losing to all teams maybe beating all of em too probably seaver and koosman fit too hmmm leary is really good point forgotten about him well if nothing else there are plenty of ex met pitchers in the category of could have lost to all teams koosman leary torrez ryan seaver guess the best three guesses would be leary ryan and either seaver or koosman thomas talavage purdue university electrical engineering grad student grad school the greatest time of one life where they pay you to do what you have spent the last years becoming good at path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel wupost gumby yale not for mail from peltz russell cs yale edu russell peltz newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re how does pitcher get save date apr organization yale university computer science dept new haven ct lines message id ra9e0innsiu scorpion zoo2 cs yale edu references apr23 newshub ariel yorku ca apr23 bvc edu mjones fenway nntp posting host scorpion zoo2 cs yale edu in article mjones fenway mjones donald aix kingston ibm com writes mikef bvc edu writes for the record there are two ways that reliever can get save he must finish the game and either have entered the game with the tying run on base at bat or on deck have pitched at least three innings effectively pitcher may not get win and save in the same game close but there number also have entered the game with no more than run lead and pitched at least one inning if pitcher finishes game which his team has won does not get the win and satisfies at least one of the three requirements he gets save rusty russell peltz peltz russell cs yale edu box new haven ct newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu sample eng ohio state edu purdue mentor cc purdue edu mace cc purdue edu poutsmaj from poutsmaj mace cc purdue edu unknown subject re bob vesterman plan to generate fan interest message id c5ubyf bve mentor cc purdue edu sender news mentor cc purdue edu usenet news organization purdue university references rvesterm vma cc nd edu date wed apr gmt lines in article rvesterm vma cc nd edu rvesterm vma cc nd edu writes the owners are whining about baseball not being popular among large enough portion of the population and have suggested various remedies such as shortening the game or trying to convince us that smoke embake emdominatebysheerintimidation is an accurate description of what is essentially laid back game forget those lame ideas here is my new and exciting two point plan to generate interest in baseball among the masses point one sex point two violence let face it sex and violence are the only things that sell in america here how we can implement them in the game sex cheerleaders cheerleaders and more cheerleaders dancing on top of the dugouts bringing hot dogs to the umps during the seventh inning stretch running up and down the stands the south bend white sox actually do this violence baseball players are such utter wuss boys the pitcher beans the batter and both benches empty in what is called bench clearing brawl everybody just stands there and looks at each other stand stand stand look look look ho hum then the bullpens come running in when they reach the fight they just stand there too anybody coming off the bench who does not throw at least one punch should be suspended and fined further the bullpens should fight it out in the outfield so as not to waste time and energy running to the infield think what bob is describing here is game which mad magazine called basebrawl have no idea what issue but it sure did cover the violence issue paul football sex violence basketball sex violence hockey violence baseball da pastime of da nayshun yawn bob vesterman newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu caen uvaarpa murdoch delmarva evsc virginia edu drw3l from drw3l delmarva evsc virginia edu david robert walker subject re how to speed up games marginally realistic message id c5yh03 pn murdoch acc virginia edu sender usenet murdoch acc virginia edu organization university of virginia references r3huvinniju jhunix hcf jhu edu bd66165 atlas nafb trw com date fri apr gmt lines in article bd66165 atlas nafb trw com mspede atlas nafb trw com writes in article r3huvinniju jhunix hcf jhu edu pablo jhunix hcf jhu edu pablo iglesias writes batter and to my amazement the umpire missed it in the years that played ball this was worst piece of umpiring ever saw now this sounds like fun topic in slo pitch softball game we had the first base dugout one of our players hit shot down the first base line with the bases loaded the only question was fair or foul ball hits ground chalk flies umpire calls foul we give him the standard didn you see chalk line his response was it hit the foul half of the line we all started laughing mark pede not bad we had similar situation slowpitch softball bases loaded weakest hitter at the plate he hits line drive over the third baseman head that hooked and hooked and finally landed ten feet in foul ground almost hitting the fence down that side of the field but the umpire called fair ball was coaching third yelling at evrybody to move up base the ump position it was still fair when it passed third base why the other team didn immediately protest ll never know we certainly weren going to argue about it since every body did manage to advance one base safely there was also the time when batted ball ricocheted off my runner from second base leg fielded by the ss steps on second to force the runner from first and throw to first in time for what the umpire called triple play protest removed when we won the game anyway clay path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel news udel edu darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu ogicse flop engr orst edu gaia ucs orst edu umn edu micro thornley from thornley micro cs umn edu david thornley newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re erickson keith miller message id c5lhyd gex news2 cis umn edu date apr gmt article news2 c5lhyd gex references apr16 mintaka lcs mit edu sender news news2 cis umn edu usenet news administration organization university of minnesota minneapolis csci dept lines nntp posting host micro cs umn edu in article apr16 mintaka lcs mit edu frankkim catfish lcs mit edu frank kim writes hi was just wondering if anyone knew when erickson and keith miller are expected to come back and what exactly ails them dunno about miller if you mean scott erickson currently the reigning twins least consistent good player he pulled muscle in the neighborhood of the rib cage that made it essentially impossible for him to pitch temporarily and is expected back on the mound sunday david thornley with tickets to see one of the scott ericksons pitch path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech concert duke news duke edu keynes econ duke edu fls from fls keynes econ duke edu forrest smith newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re infield fly rule message id news duke edu date apr gmt references c5fegu qb hq ileaf com apr15 scott skidmore edu qmrciinnoin gap caltech edu sender news news duke edu organization duke university durham lines nntp posting host keynes econ duke edu in article qmrciinnoin gap caltech edu shippert cco caltech edu tim shippert writes about the infield fly rule so if he feeling lucky your runner at second can sprint for glory as soon as the ball is popped up if it isn caught he probably scored run if it is he probably headed for aaa unless he deion sanders in which case he just heads back to the dugout and waits for his next base running blunder opportunity econ duke edu fls econ duke edu fls econ duke edu fls econ duke to my correspondents my email has been changed my new address is fls econ duke edu if mail bounces try fls raphael acpub duke edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech swrinde cs utexas edu uwm edu msuinfo netnews upenn edu sepinwal from sepinwal mail sas upenn edu alan sepinwall newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re when is melido due back message id netnews upenn edu date apr gmt references nittmo camelot sender news netnews upenn edu distribution na organization university of pennsylvania school of arts and sciences lines nntp posting host mail sas upenn edu melido came off the dl today and will start tonight against the rangers now if only he can go the distance so that the bullpen doesn have to come in outta here like vladimir alan sepinwall what this this is ice this is what happens to water when it gets too cold this this is kent this is what happens to people when they get too sexually frustrated val kilmer real genius path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net emory swrinde cs utexas edu uwm edu msuinfo netnews upenn edu sepinwal from sepinwal mail sas upenn edu alan sepinwall newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re wfan message id netnews upenn edu date apr gmt references c5jc3z knd news udel edu kkerr mk apr16 cabell vcu edu sender news netnews upenn edu organization university of pennsylvania school of arts and sciences lines nntp posting host mail sas upenn edu in article apr16 cabell vcu edu csc2imd cabell vcu edu ian derby writes on the serious side maybe we should have sub for sports radio tv as much as people complain about one station or another the information you hear is lot more in depth than what you can get on the ap wire or usa today so to benefit those who have favorite teams outside of their vicinity this would do wonders people can get on and talk about what cataldi said about the eagles or what lupica said of the bonilla incident etc this can be for any station across the country anyone agree agree although would have no idea how to go about doing it but you ve got my vote outta here like vladimir alan what this this is ice this is what happens to water when it gets too cold this this is kent this is what happens to people when they get too sexually frustrated val kilmer real genius newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net europa eng gtefsd com emory sol ctr columbia edu usenet ucs indiana edu news from dwarner journalism indiana edu david subject re bonilla message id c5lilh gtk usenet ucs indiana edu sender news usenet ucs indiana edu usenet news system nntp posting host clove journalism indiana edu reply to dwarner journalism indiana edu organization indiana university references apr16 ra msstate edu distribution usa date fri apr gmt lines jiann ming su writes bobby bonilla supposedly use the word faggot when he got mad at that author in the clubhouse should he be banned from baseball for year like schott it wouldn bother me david dwarner journalism indiana edu blue riddle productions it on the rap is an art ep is coming out on tape this time for real mail me for the newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell tedward from tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer subject re best homeruns message id apr16 cs cornell edu organization cornell univ cs dept ithaca ny references hpcc01 corp hp com apr16 osf org qn6tqinnmnf senator bedfellow mit edu date fri apr gmt lines in article qn6tqinnmnf senator bedfellow mit edu cmk athena mit edu charles kozierok writes the best home run have ever seen came off believe it or not roger clemens sorry val couple of years ago he threw ball to incaviglia which was literally at inky neck and he absolutely hammered the crap out of it after the swing clemens nonchalantly motioned for new ball he didn even turn around to look or even get upset the ball hit the lights in the left field standard some or so feet about the green monster over feet above the ground total truly an amazing shot agree home runs off clemens are always memorable kinda like eclipses and hurricanes they don happen very often cheers valentine newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net agate headwall stanford edu csd newshost stanford edu hilbert stanford edu gidi from gidi hilbert stanford edu gidi avrahami subject re jewish baseball players message id apr16 csd newshost stanford edu sender news csd newshost stanford edu organization brotherhood of breath references apr93 lafibm lafayette edu apr16 princeton edu date fri apr gmt lines thought that walt weiss was jewish seem to recall this was mentioned once while he was still at oakland also have my suspicions about esther canseco nee haddad gidi from lynch hpcc01 corp hp com howard lynch date thu apr gmt subject re let play the name game message id hpcc01 corp hp com organization the hp corporate notes server path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel wupost sdd hp com hpscit sc hp com hplextra hpcc05 hpcc01 lynch newsgroups rec sport baseball references apr20 newshub ariel yorku ca lines san francisco quakes by the way quakes is the nickname for the padres affiliate in the california league the rancho cucamunga quakes from boell hpcc01 corp hp com donald boell date thu apr gmt subject rockies message id hpcc01 corp hp com organization the hp corporate notes server path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel wupost sdd hp com hpscit sc hp com hplextra hpcc05 hpcc01 boell newsgroups rec sport baseball lines name pos ab hr rbi rs sb avg galarraga sheaffer boston of cole cf hayes bichette rf young tatum murphy of clark lf girardi castilla ss benavides ss pitchers young of totals name gs cg ip er bb era aldred ashby wayne neid parrett smith blair ruffin henry reed holmes totals xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec sport baseball soc culture japan path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu csn ub news kei com eff sol ctr columbia edu howland reston ans net darwin sura net sgiblab nec gw nec tyo wnoc tyo news nupm citsvr1 citnugw nttdpe lab lab yajima from yajima nttcom ntt jp yajima hiroshi newsgroups rec sport baseball soc culture japan subject re yakult swallows japanese pro baseball team message id o8f pdoj lab ntt jp date apr gmt references gjc l5tr lab ntt jp lk jaf lab ntt jp anq qs7 lab ntt jp rb tjt lab ntt jp edu hvq lab ntt jp aqo hfdf lab ntt jp f0v moqf lab ntt jp sender news lab ntt jp distribution rec organization ntt network information systems labs musashino tokyo lines in reply to yajima nttcom ntt jp message of apr gmt wednesday game of beloved yakult swallows at jingu hanshin tigers beloved swallows kasai ito central league standing pct gb hiroshima carp chunichi dragons hanshin tigers hated giants beloved swallows yokohama baystars hiroshi yajima mail yajima nttcom ntt jp ntt network information systems laboratories midori cho chome musashino shi tokyo japan tel fax path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech concert duke news duke edu bchm biochem duke edu from fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re braves update message id news duke edu date apr gmt references news duke edu apr19 adobe com news duke edu c5sysg kad odin corp sgi com steph pegasus cs uiuc edu sender news news duke edu organization biochemistry lines nntp posting host bruchner biochem duke edu in article steph pegasus cs uiuc edu steph pegasus cs uiuc edu dale stephenson writes in c5sysg kad odin corp sgi com luigi sgi com randy palermo writes in article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes did you see the same game saw gant most reasonable argued horrible call which hirschbeck correctly did nothing about gant then proceeded to walk halfway to rd base lean on his bat and glare at hirschbeck while don necessasarily subscribe to the theory of showing people up this was an obvious attempt by gant to do so to hirschbeck he left hirschbeck no choice but to take control of the situation the bottom line is gant started dangerous power struggle with hirschbeck when his team needed him most and he lost the events saw were called strike by hirschbeck was it just me or did it look like hirschbeck pointed to the umpire before calling that strike thought that why gant was asking for the appeal to the st base umpire he thought hirschbeck had gotten checked swing help from the wrong umpire shocked looking gant asks for appeal to first no appeal to first gant steps out of batters box hirschbeck immediately orders gant back in bad move gant ignores hirschbeck and walks off bad move hirschbeck yells at gant gant is silent hirschbeck calls for the pitch after hirschbeck called for the pitch but before the pitch was thrown cox came onto the field it was obvious that he was trying to get time called before the pitch but no one was watching pitch is called strike cox argues couldn see when he came on the field cox is ejected players everywhere play finally resumes gant shouldn have ignored hirschbeck not returning made the strike call fairly likely although suspect an argument might have gotten gant tossed altogether but if hirschbeck had let gant step out the whole incident probably would have been avoided your listing pretty much agreed with what saw with the aforementioned addendums perhaps it appeared differently at the ballpark personally was amazed that gant didn get ejected but that why cox did it called protecting your players and to those people who would have thrown everyone out of the game all can say is that you be making baseball history even in the worst baseball brawls usually only the major instigators are ejected not everyone who comes onto the field and have to say that those brawls are considerably more threatening to the game than what the braves did fri night anyhow that my last two cents on the subject barring outrageous postings will try to keep my eyes open for more incidents involving hirschbeck think there will be some with other teams as well hope not eric path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu sample eng ohio state edu purdue haven umd edu darwin sura net howland reston ans net sol ctr columbia edu eff enterpoop mit edu senator bedfellow mit edu athena mit edu cmk from cmk athena mit edu charles kozierok newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re bosio no hitter date apr gmt organization massachusetts institute of technology lines message id radvuinnss0 senator bedfellow mit edu references pb6755 apr23124316 thor albany edu r9hbsinnavr shelley washington edu nntp posting host electric monk mit edu in article r9hbsinnavr shelley washington edu dudgeon opus cheme washington edu writes pb6755 csc albany edu brown philip writes watched the final inning of bosio no hitter with several people at work after vizquel made that barehanded grab of the chopper up the middle someone remarked that if he had fielded it with his glove he wouldn have had time to throw riles out yet the throw beat riles by about two steps wonder how many others who watched the final out think vizquel had no choice but to make the play with his bare hand in this morning paper or was it on the radio vizquel was quoted as saying that he could have fielded the ball with his glove and still easily thrown out riles that he barehanded it instead so as to make the final play more memorable seems litle cocky to me but he made it work so he entitled guess so still that kind of stupid move imo he be singing different tune if he had booted it and the next guy up had hit bloop single stranger things have happened hey used to be big dave stieb fan and unfortunately there no such thing as an unearned hit cheers charles newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu caen uvaarpa murdoch delmarva evsc virginia edu drw3l from drw3l delmarva evsc virginia edu david robert walker subject re how to speed up games marginally realistic message id c5ubb0 murdoch acc virginia edu sender usenet murdoch acc virginia edu organization university of virginia references c5she2 lkf ucdavis edu apr20 vfl paramax com pn27738 ll mit edu date wed apr gmt lines in article pn27738 ll mit edu ejb ll mit edu ed baranoski writes in article apr20 vfl paramax com davidm gvls2 vfl paramax com david madden writes if pitcher throws to an occupied base more than time to without successfully picking off the runner the runner advances base as if walked this last suggestion will probably increase the number of stolen bases considerably suppose the pitcher uses up of his pick off attempts the runner can probably stretch his lead off the base given that there will be extra pressure on the pitcher to get it right this time if it encouraged the runner to stretch his lead it would probably also result ina greater number of pickoffs think it would be workable rule but it would probably be best to experiment in another league before trying it in the bigs clay path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu sample eng ohio state edu purdue haven umd edu darwin sura net howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu tamsun tamu edu enterpoop mit edu senator bedfellow mit edu athena mit edu cmk from cmk athena mit edu charles kozierok newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re bosox go down in smoke ii seattle date apr gmt organization massachusetts institute of technology lines message id rae60innt0d senator bedfellow mit edu references apr23 data io com franjion spot colorado edu nntp posting host electric monk mit edu in article franjion spot colorado edu franjion spot colorado edu john franjione writes dietz parody data io com kent dietz writes oh yea and chris bosio pitched no hitter one over the minimum two have there ever been any other no hitters in mariner history randy johnson june against the tigers charles newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu sample eng ohio state edu purdue haven umd edu darwin sura net howland reston ans net sol ctr columbia edu caen nigel msen com yale edu news yale edu news from mlocker biomed med yale edu michael locker subject re yanks over george speaks in reply to kwolfer eagle wesleyan edu message of apr edt message id apr23 news yale edu sender news news yale edu usenet news system nntp posting host biomed med yale edu organization yale university references apr23 eagle wesleyan edu date fri apr gmt news reader vms news lines in apr23 eagle wesleyan edu kwolfer eagle wesleyan edu writes how about matt nokes run single against ron darling was that hit or what while watching the game yesterday they flashed up something regarding the boss talking about mark connor as bullpen coach he said something like it mark connor fault that the bullpen is so horrible here we go again george sticking his non baseball nose in the baseball business shut up george just spend the money get the players and leave buck and the coaches and players alone saw that quote flashed on the screen yesterday also and what enraged me more than anything was not that george was speaking up agai and complaining to the media instead of to the proper people it was that the idiot reporter provided george with an outlet and an opportunity to create trouble this is supreme example of how the media can truly control situations the local beat reporters should know better and should stop trying to one up each other with quotes from the boss if they just ignored him he really simply go away and problems would be avoided what that reporter did was potentially to open up the floodgates again asshole path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu sample eng ohio state edu purdue haven umd edu darwin sura net howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu roundup crhc uiuc edu grinch hamkins from hamkins geisel csl uiuc edu jon hamkins newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re triva question on bosio no hitter date apr gmt organization center for reliable and high performance computing university of illinois at urbana champaign lines message id hamkins grinch references wall elvis swarthmore edu nntp posting host grinch csl uiuc edu wall cc swarthmore edu matthew wall writes don actually have the answer to this one bosio after walking the first two batters retired straight for back end perfect game well there were outs in row with no hits or walks in between but really he only retired batters in row the first out of the game was the front end of double play still counts as back end perfect game in my book though congrats to chris bosio too bad the brewers couldn hold on to him jon hamkins hamkins uiuc edu university of illionois path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net bogus sura net darwin sura net dtix dt navy mil mimsy afterlife adm claudius eris pica army mil user from amacal pica mil ariel newsgroups rec sport baseball subject yankees schedule message id amacal eris pica army mil date apr gmt sender news pica army mil usenet special account usenet followup to rec sport baseball organization smcar fsm lines nntp posting host eris can someone in this net post yankee schedule need this right away thank you newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com darwin sura net haven umd edu wam umd edu usenet from giant next12csc wam umd edu thundarr subject re yankee thoughts velarde etc message id apr21 wam umd edu sender usenet wam umd edu usenet news system nntp posting host next12csc wam umd edu organization workstations at maryland university of maryland college park references netnews upenn edu date wed apr gmt lines in article netnews upenn edu kkeller mail sas upenn edu keith keller writes real long but good post on yankee trades omitted disagree on one point velarde yes maybe the yanks should have let him develop but he rode the columbus shuttle way too many times to do so probably the fault of george but no matter now his usefulness is done he will not be able to develop into good player this deep in his career at least don think so his fielding is horrendous at rd maybe he be good at short he can his the curve at all and think all his trips from new york to columbus and back have demoralized him to the point that he just doesn care get rid of him say the sooner the better for both the yanks and velarde keith keller let go rangers velarde hasn been to columbus if recall for about three years granted he hasn been full time player but when he does play ve always thought he had good bat he might be demoralized about not playing full time but he hasn been shuttled around think he been in new york ever since he had hits in ab back in or believe don think he is gold glove calibre but he doesn boot it around either think if velarde is given chance he could become extremely productive don have any stats to back this up and don know if his defense would cost any games but think he could help and he has this year he has hr already same goes for jim leyrtiz he has big mouth but he does get the job done when he concentrates think the situation with leyritz is that he believes he is potential super star and he gets pissed about not playing think he might have realized something when the marlins or rockies didn select him the yanks need to worry about the bullpen right now kamieniecki and wickman militello in the bullpen ouch praying that the bp will return to last year form chris what listening to giant wam umd edu anything that guitar god go yankees dann huff plays on newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net gatech holos0 lbr from lbr holos0 uucp len reed subject re rule book trivia message id apr21 holos0 uucp organization holos software inc references io20456 maine maine edu apr19 ast saic com io20456 maine maine edu date wed apr gmt lines in article io20456 maine maine edu ryan robbins io20456 maine maine edu writes rule states it is interference by batter or runner when in running the last half of the distance from home base to first base he runs outside the three foot line or inside to the left of the foul line and in the umpire judgment interferes with the field er taking the throw at first base the key word in the rule is and runner isn out just for running out of the baseline he out for interfering with the fielding of the ball or throw or fielding of the throw to first because the catcher opted to throw the ball over the batter runner head there no inter ference sorry still don buy it you re certainly right that the runner is not out merely for running out of the baseline he must interfere with the play but the argument here is over what constitutes interference you certainly cannot infer from what you ve quoted that the batter runner must be hit by the ball to be guilty of interference you haven posted definition of interference at all imo this calls for one of the approved ruling that go in small print in the rulebook something like approved ruling if in the judgement of the umpire the runner by running to the left of the allowed path caused the fielder to make bad throw blocks the vision of the fielder receiving the throw or otherwise impedes the defensive team making play on him the batter runner shall be judeged guilty of interference or approved ruling the runner cannot be judged guilty of interference in the unless he makes contact with fielder or is hit by the thrown ball in the absence of such an approved ruling claim that this is poor rules trivia question since it cannot be authoritatively answered len reed holos software inc voice ext domain lbr holos atl ga usa uucp lbr holos0 uucp newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net agate news ucdavis edu dale ucdavis edu ez027993 from ez027993 dale ucdavis edu gary built like villanueva huckabay subject re jose canseco swing vs message id c5uek5 bd9 ucdavis edu sender usenet ucdavis edu organization guys with shaved heads inc puckett division references apr20 nntpd lkg dec com distribution na date wed apr gmt lines waugaman nac enet dec com glenn waugaman writes gary list of the ten slowest bats in baseball andre dawson what peter gammons andre tremendous bat speed dawson bat speed so great that dawson has trouble hitting the ball to the right side of the left field line without counting to before swinging bat speed never before seen from year old man much less from any red sox player to precede him yes that him was not specific enough just because someone consistently pulls the ball does not mean that they have quick bat dawson release is slow and he is after all he may swing early and rotate his hips so that he hits the ball to the left side all the time but he swings slowly as for me disagreeing with peter gammons whoa that never happened before next thing you know ll probably believe dave campbell is the biggest imbecile even to come near mic and that ray knight has the iq of drained crankcase oil gary huckabay outside that was right down the bleedin pipe balder than any kenny realize don have great control but dave on the net mon gary that was styrofoam cup the really plate foot to your right throw the ball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net uunet ogicse flop engr orst edu prism cs orst edu robinr from robinr prism cs orst edu ryan robin newsgroups rec sport baseball subject john wetteland derek lilliquist info please message id r3ud6innifd flop engr orst edu date apr gmt article flop r3ud6innifd sender robinr prism cs orst edu distribution usa organization cs dept oregon state university lines nntp posting host prism cs orst edu hi there was wondering if anyone knew if john wetteland was put on the dl again after his first day period was up read in the usa today sports section that he is on for surgery to repair broken toe and was wondering if that was new thought he was just letting it heal another question is derek lilliquist the main closer for the indians now that olin is gone need to know cause need to find reliever to replace wetteland and so far lilliquist is doing ok any information on either of the players would be greatly appreciated thank you for your time ryan robin texas rangers in jose canseco for mvp ryan robin weatherford hall corvallis or robinr prism cs orst edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu linac uwm edu caen destroyer ccs itd umich edu sweda from sweda css itd umich edu sean sweda newsgroups rec sport baseball subject royals final run total date apr gmt organization university of michigan itd consulting and support lines message id qg93uinn7ai stimpy css itd umich edu nntp posting host stimpy css itd umich edu newsreader tin version pl8 ve been saying this for quite some time but being absent from the net for while figured stick my neck out bit the royals will set the record for fewest runs scored by an al team since the inception of the dh rule any ideas what this is they will fall easily short of runs that for damn sure can believe these media fools picking them to win the division like our tom gage of the detroit news claiming herk robinson is some kind of genius for the trades aquisitions he made ya sean sean sweda sweda css itd umich edu css itd consultant president bob sura fan club gm manager motor city marauders internet baseball league play ball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net uunet olivea strobe atc olivetti com from napoli strobe atc olivetti com gaetano napolitano newsgroups rec sport baseball us sport baseball subject era formula message id olivea atc olivetti com date apr gmt sender news olivea atc olivetti com followup to rec sport baseball distribution ca organization olivetti atc cupertino ca usa lines hello as the subject tells all am trying to find out what is the formula to calculate the era for the pitchers if any of you baseball fans have it please mail me at napoli atc olivetti com thank you very much gaetano napolitano newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel wupost darwin sura net sgiblab wetware spunky redbrick com psinntp psinntp wrldlnk usenet from dennis parslow p00421 psilink com subject re john franco in reply to c5wthc i2 world std com message id p00421 psilink com sender usenet worldlink com nntp posting host organization performance systems int date sat apr gmt mailer psilink dos lines date fri apr gmt from tackey chan tac world std com wall cc swarthmore edu matthew wall writes so anybody know what up with john franco are the mets just starting him off gingerly because of the small amount of spring training work or what the mets are really starting him off slow mike maddax and young can do the job of closing torborg has said that he franco is his closer but will give him rest and not rush him since there is no need he does not want franco to get hurt on his return have this guy so know what it is like to see him pitch inns in that lat weeks tac well they just said that franco will probably go on the dl tomorrow they mentioned career minor leaguer as the warm body who would go along forget also when answering questions about the rotation coleman sd broadcaster said that hurst is gone in about month month and half which is when he should finish re hab later dennis dennis parslow that better be korean good troy ny luck symbol remo williams p00421 psilink com newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net usc sdd hp com decwrl pa dec com nntpd2 cxo dec com nntpd lkg dec com nac enet dec com waugaman from waugaman nac enet dec com glenn waugaman subject re best homeruns message id apr21 nntpd lkg dec com sender usenet nntpd lkg dec com usenet news system organization digital equipment corporation date wed apr gmt lines in article qn6tqinnmnf senator bedfellow mit edu cmk athena mit edu charles kozierok writes in article apr16 osf org dswartz osf org dan swartzendruber writes the best home run have ever seen came off believe it or not roger clemens sorry val couple of years ago he threw ball to incaviglia which was literally at inky neck and he absolutely hammered the crap out of it after the swing clemens nonchalantly motioned for new ball he didn even turn around to look or even get upset the ball hit the lights in the left field standard some or so feet about the green monster over feet above the ground total truly an amazing shot was at that game behind home plate next to scout who was manning the radar gun the season was winding down and roger didn have his best fastball topping out at in contrast to frank tanana who went as low as with one lollipop in the process of striking out phil plantier five times on the night inky shot would have gone further than any ve ever seen if it hadn crashed into the lights not the lightstand as you say over feet high roy hobbs like and bounced back onto the field that had to have been footer if unobstructed edging out bo jackson drive off oil can boyd to the top of the centerfield bleacher back wall in for the best ve seen personally was sitting under that one glenn waugaman digital equipment corporation littleton ma waugaman nac enet dec com newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu news csuohio edu kharma from kharma csuohio edu carl santora subject bmw frame set up for sale message id apr25 news csuohio edu sender news news csuohio edu usenet news system organization cleveland state university newsreader tin pl5 date sun apr gmt lines for sale or trade bmw r60us frame and misc converted to earles fork the package includes frame swingarm and earles fork final drive rear fender front fender large tank steel wheels laced ss spokes one new rim one ec used rim all brackets brake hdware footrests etc the colour scheme used is the original bmw optional bristol grey items not painted are earles rigid section needs straightening this rigid section was bent when received it not from being mounted to the r60us frame earles swingarm and the headlight shell have the paintthat was used and can finish the non painted items if desired the striping was done by holt design not included engine gearbox electrics seat this is clean and tidy project the project was terminated due to lack of time and the r69 hp engine that was to be used was transferred to another project would prefer to sell the package as whole am negotiable as to what can be included in the package will not separate any of the painted items am willing to take spares in trade mail any inquiries thanx carl newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu csn boulder ucsu spot colorado edu coburnn from coburnn spot colorado edu nicholas coburn subject re buying suzuki gs500e advice wanted message id coburnn spot colorado edu keywords suzuki sender news ucsu colorado edu usenet news system nntp posting host spot colorado edu organization university of colorado boulder references netnews upenn edu date sun apr gmt lines awhite ssc sas upenn edu andrew white writes hello net readers am looking for little net advice ve got my eye on suzuki gs500e at local dealer the bike got miles on it and looks in mint condition dealer is asking bit less than good price don have access to blue book and am too lazy to go to the library dealer is letting me test ride it this week blue book says wholesale retail sounds like you are getting pretty fair price assuming it is in nice condition andrew white univ of pennsylvania edu breath awhite mcneil sas upenn edu dod honda sabre v45 nick coburn dod ama cbr1000 cbr600 coburnn spot colorado edu newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net agate ames pacbell com amdahl amdcad angelo karen from karen angelo amd com karen black subject re touring the southwest message id c622gf b6v amd com sender usenet amd com netnews organization advanced micro devices santa clara ca references f3b3w164w fatcity cts com apr24 dsd es com date sun apr gmt lines bgardner pebbles es com blaine gardner writes kim fatcity cts com kim sharpe writes few of us are touring sothwest utah in mid june to see the canyons do any of you have some helpful hints on where to stay or things to see do avoid plans are to see bryce zion arches is the grand close at that point or is an additional trip required well it closer to bryce than bryce is to arches spend lot of time studying the maps there lot of you can get there from here in that area you might want to hit the grand canyon on the way up from california loop around to canyonlands moab arches and then back down towards bryce zion on the way home make sure you ride us between capitol reef and bryce it been on number of top roads lists highway is great road be sure to stop by the anasazi sp village museum near boulder creek interesting lifestyle the views of dixie national forest are stunning karen black newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net agate doc ic ac uk mjs from mjs sys uea ac uk mike sixsmith subject re countersteering to know or not to know what is the question message id mjs zen sys uea ac uk sender news sys uea ac uk organization university of east anglia references lotto apr19121530 husc4 harvard edu mjs zen sys uea ac uk lotto apr21091901 laura harvard edu distribution net date thu apr gmt lines lotto laura harvard edu jerry lotto writes yes it was specifically the ability or understanding of the technique which was absent how did hurt measure the ability of riders to swerve path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net agate ames sun barr news2me ebay sun com west west sun com ale gaijin from gaijin ale japan sun com john little nihon sun repair depot newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re so do any police ossifers read this stuff date apr gmt organization nihon sun microsystems atsugi technical centre japan lines message id r5pouinnbe1 west west sun com references apr20 iscnvx lmsc lockheed com c5u4dl a6v athena cs uga edu nntp posting host ale japan sun com summary throgmorton finally spills the beans on the blue baron legend in article c5u4dl a6v athena cs uga edu ahatcher athena cs uga edu allan hatcher writes well here goes after lurking for long time ll announce myself yes the enemy sorry allan but unless you happen to be the guy who watches while he driving white toyota on route between atsugi and hiratsuka you re not even close to being the enemy john little gaijin japan sun com sun microsystems atsugi japan newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu caen batcomputer cornell rochester galileo cc rochester edu uhura cc rochester edu ec003b from ec003b uhura cc rochester edu wizard subject mike greenwell and mo vaughn stat help message id apr21 galileo cc rochester edu sender news galileo cc rochester edu nntp posting host uhura cc rochester edu organization university of rochester rochester new york date wed apr gmt lines dear anybody am in rochester ny where people can look at rangers penguins playoff game and say no joke heard it hey whats this oh its not even the ahl its just the nhl think because of this get red wings orioles aaa stats and updates but no al or nl stats specifically im looking for red sox stats so far id like all of them but could handle just greenwell and vaughn can anybody please help me wizard ec003b uhura cc rochester edu newsgroups ne forsale rpi forsale ny forsale rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net gatech rpi santac from santac aix rpi edu christopher james santarcangelo subject forsale yamaha seca turbo message id y5qpb rpi edu keywords forsale seca turbo nntp posting host aix rpi edu distribution usa date tue apr gmt lines don want to do this but need money for school this is very snappy bike it needs little work and don have the money for it some details miles mitsubishi turbo not asthetically beautiful but very fast one of the few factory turboed bikes not kit must see and ride to appreciate how fun this bike is am asking or best offer the bike can be seen in bennington vermont mail for more info thanks chris santac rpi edu newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com hpscit sc hp com news dtc hp com jjb from jjb dtc hp com jim brewer subject re daytona sender news news dtc hp com network news admin message id c6289t news dtc hp com date sun apr gmt references rtaraz apr22104337 bigwpi wpi edu c5ytzo news dtc hp com nntp posting host moosehead dtc hp com organization hp design technology center santa clara ca lines in article c5ytzo news dtc hp com jjb dtc hp com jim brewer writes russell had major backmarker problems before getting onto the banking and the backmarker was chuck graves believe newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester news bbn com noc near net howland reston ans net agate linus linus mitre org mbunix mitre org cookson from cookson mbunix mitre org cookson subject re why wanted police officers to answer my posting message id apr25 linus mitre org sender news linus mitre org news service nntp posting host mbunix mitre org organization the mitre corporation bedford ma references viking ponderous cc iastate edu csundh30 ursa viking ponderous cc iastate edu date sun apr gmt lines in article viking ponderous cc iastate edu viking iastate edu dan sorenson writes how to get verbal warning for in poppy cock this story is obviously complete fabrication and ll show you why in ames there is road that leads to the little town of this establishes that the story takes place in iowa gilbert gilbert has one stop light if that tells you something having just gotten the bike back together thought take it for short ride and check things out heading out of town went into the twisties at slow pace just under the speed limit in iowa come on now dan how dumb do you think we are you could have at least thrown in llama or tennis ball reference hell you didn even get the speed right dean ps dean cookson dcookson mitre org dod ama the mitre corp burlington rd bedford ma kotnml kotb the road is my shepherd and shall not stop vfr750f sam eliott road hogs mtv bianchi limited newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester news bbn com noc near net howland reston ans net agate linus linus mitre org mbunix mitre org cookson from cookson mbunix mitre org cookson subject re dod pins not message id apr25 linus mitre org sender news linus mitre org news service nntp posting host mbunix mitre org organization the mitre corporation bedford ma references apr23 news columbia edu r9hki v5 agate berkeley edu apr23 skcla monsanto com date sun apr gmt lines in article apr23 skcla monsanto com mpmena skcla monsanto com writes bad news right after we placed our order the company upped its minimum order for manufacturing we got in under the wire with an order of or so pins but as result of the low number of pins we were relegated to the we ll get to it in between other runs bin as result it seems that it may be another or weeks how about the name and number of the pin place would think that or so people calling to bitch about why orders placed after ours are getting done first might speed things along dean dean cookson dcookson mitre org dod ama the mitre corp burlington rd bedford ma kotnml kotb the road is my shepherd and shall not stop vfr750f sam eliott road hogs mtv bianchi limited newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester news bbn com noc near net howland reston ans net agate linus linus mitre org mbunix mitre org cookson from cookson mbunix mitre org cookson subject re vfr st11 owners get hidden feature message id apr25 linus mitre org keywords lights sender news linus mitre org news service nntp posting host mbunix mitre org organization the mitre corporation bedford ma references c61r0b c7 world std com date sun apr gmt lines in article c61r0b c7 world std com daved world std com dave dorfman writes was enjoying lunch this saturday at foodies in milford nh with an assortment of other nedod folks when dean cookson yes he has not left the country yet mentioned that the wiring diagram of the vfr750 shows that the light switch is three position switch my cb750 does it too the switch continuity section of the wiring diagram looks something like this hl low high dean dean cookson dcookson mitre org dod ama the mitre corp burlington rd bedford ma kotnml kotb the road is my shepherd and shall not stop vfr750f sam eliott road hogs mtv bianchi limited newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net agate doc ic ac uk uknet pavo csi cam ac uk camcus idb14 from idb14 cus cam ac uk benham subject re wanted uk bmw r80 insurance tips message id apr22 infodev cam ac uk sender news infodev cam ac uk usenet news nntp posting host bootes cus cam ac uk organization of cambridge england references apr21 infodev cam ac uk date thu apr gmt lines in article apr21 infodev cam ac uk idb14 cus cam ac uk benham writes hi now in the market for buying bmw the ideal would be an r80 rs but be interested to here of any r80 for sale age is not problem more interested in good example without massive amount of miles and one which has been well maintained as intend to keep it well and for some time would also like to know if anyone has any sound advice as regards to insurance yr old licence for years no accidents claims convictions am old enough to get bmw owners club insurance yet or will have to wait until next year ian future beemer owner article repeated due to large amount of other articles since st sent path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu asuvax ncar noao amethyst organpipe uug arizona edu asphaug from asphaug lpl arizona edu erik asphaug x2773 newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re maxima chain wax message id apr25 organpipe uug arizona edu date apr gmt references c5wqsr myrddin imat com apr23 research nj nec com c60itu dn myrddin imat com sender news organpipe uug arizona edu organization lunar planetary laboratory tucson az lines in article c60itu dn myrddin imat com nelson seahunt imat com michael nelson writes in article apr23 research nj nec com behanna syl nj nec com chris behanna writes spray the chain wax onto the rollers and sideplates occassionally and rust will not be problem did regularly and it was michael maybe you had accidentally sealed in some water cleaned my chain thoroughly took it on short ride to dry it off and heat it up bit and the paraffin sank deep into the rollers and formed good seal on the outside no rust but then again live in tucson dod asphaug hindmost lpl arizona edu kawi zephyr erik asphaug bmw r80gs path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net agate ames data nas nasa gov taligent apple com apple com not for mail from thompson apple com paul thompson newsgroups rec motorcycles subject changing oil on virago was yamaha vs honda opinions date apr organization apple computer inc cupertino california lines message id rf2vd efm apple com references apr remus rutgers edu apr20 pts mot com apr22 freenet carleton ca nntp posting host apple com aa963 freenet carleton ca lloyd carr writes in previous article phj remus rutgers edu ju says nuet ke pts mot com keith nuetzman x3153 p7625 writes the brake pedal ve pretty much decided never to get this particular model unless he or someone else wants to change the oil filter for me compared to the minute change he was used to for his honda this is just design flaw oversight in my eyes sure don know what bike was being worked on but it sure wasn virago ve owned both the and and you can do the filter change in about mins and nothing has to be removed well watching several denizen dismantle laurie virago in an attempt to change the oil at the ride feed few years back was pretty funny site surely with the combined wisdom of all these folks they weren doing things the hard way were they paul thompson apple computer path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu wupost uunet gossip pyramid com olivea apple com apple com not for mail from thompson apple com paul thompson newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re back breaker near hit date apr organization apple computer inc cupertino california lines message id rf5eg i26 apple com references r941o tu menudo uh edu nntp posting host apple com inde7wv rosie uh edu writes hear screeching tires dart my eyes to my mirrors and realize it the moroon flying up right behind me in my panic pop my clutch and stall the bike luckily the guy stops foot behind my rear wheel understand why you theoretically stop so far behind car but can you really in actuality avoid such an incident suggestions the experience you describe is why don like to sit with my bike in gear figure there chance that ll be startled in some way and stall my bike and figure this is more likely than the chance that ll be unable to escape some situation because of the extra time needed to put the bike in gear so concentrate on avoiding situations rather than making split second evasive manuvers split lanes so not at the end of the line unfortunately this is not legal in most of the country if can split perhaps there isn room then will stop near one side of the lane so have an easy escape and leave my bike in gear until the next car has stopped watch in my mirrors in the mean time to make sure it will whether really would have time to move should car fail to stop haven had to find out yet some cars have an annoying habbit of racing up behind you before braking heavilly so it can be hard to tell if they are planning to brake or not so in summary position yourself for an easy exit and then watch your mirrors until it all clear paul thompson apple computer path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu sol ctr columbia edu destroyer cs ubc ca unixg ubc ca erich triumf ca ivan from ivan erich triumf ca ivan reid newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re electricty date apr pst organization triumf tri university meson facility lines distribution world message id apr199303461879 erich triumf ca references mavenry altcit eskimo com mimsy umd edu nntp posting host erich triumf ca news software vax vms vnews in article mimsy umd edu leavitt cs umd edu mr bill writes maven mavenry altcit eskimo com norman hamer writes nh trying to figure out way to put halogen beam on my cb360t are nh there any easy ways to do this slip in bulb replacement no the honda employed sealed beam which was not interchangeable with anything else so far as could ever tell ve owned two over the years and that was always one of my biggest nits not sure how far standardisation went but on two of my bikes the gs550b and think the gt380m was able to pop cibie insert directly into the original housing held in by those roughly shaped springs the inserts used halogen bulbs and were great although mr bill later indicates that this may be too much of drain on your charging system ivan reid paul scherrer institute ch ivan cvax psi ch gsx600f rg250wd si you porsche me pass dod newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet microsoft hexnut chrispi from chrispi microsoft com chris pirih subject re first bike message id apr22 microsoft com date apr gmt organization microsoft corporation references cforrzy00iuziatonn andrew cmu edu lines in rec motorcycles james leo belliveau jbc9 andrew cmu edu writes am serious motorcycle enthusiast without motorcycle and to put it bluntly it sucks really would like some advice on what would be good starter bike for me do know one thing however need to make my first bike good one because buying second any time soon is out of the question am specifically interested in racing bikes cbr f2 gsx know that this may sound kind of crazy considering that ve never had bike before but am responsible fast learner and in love responsible and in love believe that contradiction in terms unless you re really brave read reckless cc sport bike will go way faster than you dare for at least your first year of riding getting more than that really is overkill as you ll never even want to use it the following bikes can be bought and repaired cheaply are easy for novice to manage and are plenty high performance kawasaki ex honda vf interceptor suzuki gs the mph time of the ex at full throttle is way sooner than you re ready for it with something as small as you probably be wishing for more power pretty quickly unless it tzr or rgv now not saying that you re certain to kill yourself immediately with f2 or gsxr plenty of people have started riding on those bikes and done just fine what am saying is that it waste of money and waste of perfectly good plastic when you drop the thing learning how to balance while stopping you ll never get the throttle more than half open anyway so why spend the extra bucks chris newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net agate doc ic ac uk news sys uea ac uk from mjs sys uea ac uk mike sixsmith subject re for johs dhhalden no last message id mjs zen sys uea ac uk sender news sys uea ac uk organization university of east anglia references apr19 bnr ca apr20 fmg bt co uk date thu apr gmt lines pky fmg bt co uk pete young writes nick pettefar npet bnr ca wrote tsk tsk tsk another newbie bites the dust eh they ll learn newbie sorry to disappoint you but as far as the internet goes was in baghdad while you were still in your dads bag based on your previous postings apparently devoid of humour sarcasm wit or the apparent capacity to walk and chew gum at the same time assumed you were serious mea culpa you cannot be serious personally think nick postings are the best thing on wreck moto newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net agate doc ic ac uk news sys uea ac uk from mjs sys uea ac uk mike sixsmith subject re good reasons to wave at each other message id mjs zen sys uea ac uk sender news sys uea ac uk organization university of east anglia references mavenry altcit eskimo com apr21 rd hydro on ca date thu apr gmt lines jlevine rd hydro on ca the angel levine writes has anyone while driving cage ever waved at bikers get the urge but ve never actually done it no but ve driven my cage to the bike park thinking was riding the bike newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu linac uwm edu cs utexas edu tamsun tamu edu inetg1 rafael kmelcher from kmelcher rafael arco com kenneth melcher subject re the phillies deja vu message id apr16 arco com sender news arco com reply to kmelcher rafael arco com organization arco exploration and production technology references c5i7hc hqo news udel edu date fri apr gmt lines my dad has always blamed the phillies collapse in on me on sept the phillies had something like game lead with to play was born on sept the phils proceeded to lose something like straight while the cards won straight does anyone know hte exact numbers and pennant was blown to this day my dad likes to remind me that it all began when was born krm newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net newsserver jvnc net princeton crux roger from roger crux princeton edu roger lustig subject re all time best players message id apr23 princeton edu originator news nimaster sender news princeton edu usenet news system nntp posting host crux princeton edu reply to roger astro princeton edu roger lustig organization princeton university references apr22 woods ulowell edu date fri apr gmt lines in article apr22 woods ulowell edu poiriera woods ulowell edu writes this chatting about the best player of all time is pointless you can compare players from different era of course you can you just have to be careful about what conclusions you draw if you will notice the best pitchers stat wise were in the and and the best all around hitters probably came from the to huh the and were the worst decades for great pitching grove vance dean and not whole lot else as for the best all around hitters stat wise ruth gehrig foxx greenberg hornsby cobb etc all played before the stat wise the were graveyard for hitters now we have great number of great pitchers and an equally great number of great hitters and fielders also how do you know which ones do you consider great about fielding the gloves were much smaller than they are now in the early years of baseball maybe hitter like sheffield with the ba hr and rbi even though it was probably fluke year can be compared to mantle because the pitching sheffield faces is faster and not to mention better the so sheffield also has better shoes more time between pitches you can run the comparison but there are lots of things to take into account same could be said for frank thomas who is said to be the best hitter since ted williams although frank defense does suck well can we compare them or can we all am saying is that you can compare players from different era if you want best player try choosing best players from different era that why we can compare players to the standard of their era and we can keep in mind era to era differences without throwing up our hands in despair way there is reasonable basis for comparison you haven shown us what un reasonable about the mantle sheffield comparison that you yourself did roger path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu malgudi oar net ucbeh san uc edu ucunix san uc edu babbage ece uc edu flash ece uc edu rbd newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re speeding up games message id raaao efs babbage ece uc edu from rbd flash ece uc edu bobby davis date apr gmt references rudyc5wcsg g6a netcom com organization university of cincinnati nntp posting host flash ece uc edu lines in article rudyc5wcsg g6a netcom com rudy netcom com rudy wade writes feel that talking about speeding up baseball games is like trying to keep signal to noise ratio high on rec sports baseball no matter how much you talk about it or how reasonable your arguments there will always be people who quote an entire article with signatures to make one line comment reply or woof whether through their stupidity denseness or excitement and overeagerness to bless us with their insight no matter what is said they will always keep doing it same with ballgames no matter how much it might benefit the game for the umpires to enforce the rules and for the players managers coaches to stop wasting our time it just ain gonna happen rudy agree newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet mnemosyne cs du edu nyx gspira from gspira nyx cs du edu greg spira subject re candlestick park experience long message id apr16 mnemosyne cs du edu sender usenet mnemosyne cs du edu netnews admin account organization university of denver dept of math comp sci references c5lb8d dhh srgenprp sr hp com date fri apr gmt lines craige sad hp com craig eid writes these things should have been done long time ago but it took real businessman ex safeway president peter magowan to figure it out just like he used to tell his checkers if the customers don come back don need as many checkers this isn knock on bob lurie he was competent businessman but he didn deal much with the general public interesting article craig it amazing how hard it is to get baseball teams to understand how to properly market their teams and treat their customers no other business could ever get away with the th century attitudes that most current owners display in running their clubs guess the owners look at baseball high growth rate and ask why it necessary to bring th century business practices into the game but they don realize how much more growth the game is capable of and how much they pay in terms of long term popularity by not doing better by the game and its fans greg path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu ub csn cherokee steven from steven advtech uswest com steve novak newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re re all time best players message id apr21 advtech uswest com date apr gmt references apr21 tesla njit edu sender news advtech uswest com radio free boulder organization west advanced technologies lines nntp posting host jaynes advtech uswest com drm6640 tesla njit edu writes career don mattingly lou gehrig ironman steve novak ban the bomb ban the pope steven advtech uswest com newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net gatech purdue mentor cc purdue edu sage cc purdue edu jmelchi from jmelchi sage cc purdue edu moi subject cubbies message id c5uktd g57 mentor cc purdue edu keywords same sender news mentor cc purdue edu usenet news organization purdue university date wed apr gmt lines is there chicago cubs mailing list if so like to join any help appreciated newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu csus edu netcom com mzimmers from mzimmers netcom com michael zimmers subject re time of game message id mzimmersc5ul32 m1 netcom com organization netcom online communications services login guest references apr21 adobe com date wed apr gmt lines in article apr21 adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes the reason unhappy with the length of games today is summed up above for an extra minutes game average in the al and an extra minutes average in the nl seeing fewer runs score now what think am seeing is more pitches more strikeouts over game in the al over game more in the nl more walks game more in yep and the ks don have to denote slow game either last night sid fernandez was mowing the giants hitters down ks in innings yet the first innings of the game were quite brisk he also threw pitches leading me to believe it isn just the number of pitches that determines the length of game but the behavior between pitches michael zimmers voice softhelp suppliers to software developers data path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com darwin sura net spool mu edu news nd edu bsu cs bsu ucs uucp writingctr from writingctr leo bsuvc bsu edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re cub fever message id apr22 bsu ucs date apr gmt references kingoz camelot organization ball state university muncie in univ computing svc lines in article kingoz camelot kingoz camelot bradley edu orin roth writes cub fever is hitting me again beginning to think they have chance this year what the heck am thinking sorry just moment of incompetence ll be ok really orin bradley really jester in disguise hear ya then again we must remember that we are indeed cub fans and that the cubs will eventually blow it after all the cubs are the easiest team in the national league to root for no pressure you know they will lose eventually oh well suppose we must have faith after all they do look pretty good and they don even have sandberg back yet cubs in cha newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu csus edu netcom com mzimmers from mzimmers netcom com michael zimmers subject re why is barry bonds not batting th message id mzimmersc5ulp0 sp netcom com organization netcom online communications services login guest references apr21 leland stanford edu r2mek hlq menudo uh edu franjion spot colorado edu date wed apr gmt lines in article franjion spot colorado edu franjion spot colorado edu john franjione writes don understand this at all matt williams has demonstrated throughout his career that he will not wait for good pitches to hit he won take walks he rather swing if the opposing pitcher why would groove fastball to williams and have him hit it well when know that williams will swing and miss or at least not hit very well at low and away curve matt problem is really more ability than attitude it isn that he got it in his mind that he wants to swing away but rather that he still total sucker for the curve ball it looked for while in that he was getting better but it still his weak point as to whether it does him any good to have bonds behind him the net stat mavens will probably tell you there no reason that it should but if he thinks it will it might be self fulfilling prophecy as to whether the giants lineup is optimal who knows batting bonds the team best hitter fifth does seem to be odd but the and hitters aren exactly messrs oba so they aren giving much up there and although clark isn the overall offensive force that bonds is he seems better suited to the spot assuming of course that he starts hitting one of these days michael zimmers voice softhelp suppliers to software developers data newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net noc near net black clarku edu vax clarku edu hhenderson from hhenderson vax clarku edu subject re game length was re braves update message id apr93 vax clarku edu sender news black clarku edu usenet news system organization clark university references apr20 wvnvms wvnet edu apr93 vax clarku edu mzimmersc5sllk ld9 netcom com mssc5t13o l5s netcom com franjion spot colorado edu apr93 vax clarku edu date apr gmt lines ecaxron ariel lerc nasa gov ron graham writes think that everything else being equal it not too much to ask that if weeknight game can be shortened by half an hour by cutting out warmup pitches dawdling outside the batter box commerical time outs and that sort of thing not asking for too much how do you know they can be shortened by half an hour has anybody done study to determine how much time is actually wasted say in these games heather hhenderson vax clarku edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu andrew cmu edu jk5x from john kim jk5x andrew cmu edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject new yankees mailing list date wed apr organization junior im mcs cit track carnegie mellon pittsburgh pa lines distribution world message id fpoecy00vm8i1xl4p andrew cmu edu references apr20 eagle wesleyan edu r20avinnb6q cronkite central sun com r3ejr tb meaddata meaddata com nntp posting host po4 andrew cmu edu in reply to r3ejr tb meaddata meaddata com hi all got tired of waiting for mailing list so am going to make one just send me your complete mail address on your message and ll send you confirmation and the yankee mailing list address john go yankees newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu sol ctr columbia edu destroyer vela acs oakland edu cs uiuc edu perseus cs uiuc edu steph from steph perseus cs uiuc edu dale stephenson subject re ron gant stalling and hirschbeck message id steph perseus cs uiuc edu sender news cs uiuc edu organization university of illinois dept of comp sci urbana il references steph perseus cs uiuc edu c5su54 lw ucdavis edu steph pegasus cs uiuc edu apr21 adobe com date wed apr gmt lines in apr21 adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes in article steph pegasus cs uiuc edu steph pegasus cs uiuc edu dale stephenson writes but in the past disputed strike call has been enough reason to step out of the batters box it may not be good idea it may even irritate the umpire but ve seen it lot and ve seen it tolerated just not this time the key words here are in the past everybody was warned before the season began that the umpires had been instructed to enforce the rule in the interest of speeding up the game when see this happening to other players ll post public apology to mr hirschbeck until then think this was case of selective enforcement dale stephenson steph cs uiuc edu baseball fanatic it is considered good to look wise especially when not overburdened with information golden kimball newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com hpscit sc hp com cupnews0 cup hp com news1 boi hp com rdetweil from rdetweil boi hp com richard detweiler subject how to start cardinals mailing list message id c5un8i fod boi hp com sender dick detweiler date wed apr gmt distribution usa references c5focv det constellation ecn uoknor edu organization hewlett packard boise printer division keywords cardinal mail lines it would be shame for cards fans on the net to go through the championship season without mailing list to talk on so would be willing to look at starting one except there one little problem don know the first thing about how to do it or what it requires in terms of resources or time so if some kind soul could mail me the particulars of getting starting and managing mail list see if it would be feasible for me to start cards mailing list thanks in advance dick detweiler rdetweil hpdmd48 boi hp com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu moe ksu ksu edu gemini ksu ksu edu news from jeffyg gemini ksu ksu edu jeffy newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re rooky question about the era date apr organization kansas state university lines message id r48vdinn6k1 gemini ksu ksu edu references thein damabus apr20 hpcvusn cv hp com nntp posting host gemini ksu ksu edu whitty cv hp com joe whitty writes thomas theiner thein damabus informatik rwth aachen de wrote hi there german and have been into this mlb stuff since almost one year now there are many problems occuring for me one of them is the era statistic for pitchers what does it say era indicates the average number of earned runs attributed to pitcher per nine inning game thus if pitcher pitched innings and gave up earned run his inning equivelent perfomance would be earned runs thus his era is to compute the era you simply take the number of earned runs divided by the innings pitched and then multiple the result by era er ip think there is another formula for era heard something about it last year im not sure what it is but im gonna give it stab it allows for pitcher to pitch more than innings at time and not benefit cuz it uses outs recorded instead of innings pitched era er outs recorded like said im not sure this is exactly it but im pretty sure they changed it to something of the sort an earned run is run that is given up by the pitcher that is not attributed to fielding error more specifically if an error occurs that represented the third out all runs scored after the error are considered unearned runs earned runs are also runs scored as result of players who were left on base when the pitcher exited the game here are some examples if there are two outs in an inning and there are men on base if an error occurs that represents the third out all of the runs after this error and not counted as earned runs if pitcher issues some base on balls walks and leaves the game before the inning is completed he is responsible for the people who were left on base if the those runners who were left on base score and the score was not result of an error those eraned runs are attributed to the pitcher who left the game hope this explains things for you joe path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu lerc nasa gov ariel lerc nasa gov ecaxron from ecaxron ariel lerc nasa gov ron graham newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re game length was re braves update date apr est organization nasa lewis research center lines distribution world message id apr199315585989 ariel lerc nasa gov references apr20 wvnvms wvnet edu apr93 vax clarku edu mzimmersc5sllk ld9 netcom com apr93 vax clarku edu nntp posting host ariel lerc nasa gov news software vax vms vnews in article apr93 vax clarku edu hhenderson vax clarku edu writes ecaxron ariel lerc nasa gov ron graham writes think that everything else being equal it not too much to ask that if weeknight game can be shortened by half an hour by cutting out warmup pitches dawdling outside the batter box commercial time outs and that sort of thing not asking for too much how do you know they can be shortened by half an hour has anybody done study to determine how much time is actually wasted say in these games oh probably ms nichols has given the average game times and average runs scored for and very nice piece of information ms nichols who knows she may be listening and not have me in her kill file after all those numbers indicate somewhere in the neighborhood of half run less being scored per game and the games taking minutes longer something is being done now that wasn done ten years ago which is extending the games by minutes ms nichols thinks it more pitches given the increasing specialization of pitchers it wouldn surprise me if it not simply more pitches though don think it unreasonable to think that something can be done to get ten of those minutes back then get couple more from shortening the warmup time for relief pitcher after he comes in and couple more still from enforcing existing rules which have been stated in other posts in this thread and other related ones the problem is who decides whether that time is wasted you don seem to think it is at all right now think it is although have heard one case favoring giving the reliever all the warmups he thinks he needs the difference in mounds between the field and pen but who knows if the rules get changed maybe something didn foresee will happen to change my mind but you can bet lot of minds would fail to foresee the same thing or else nothing will be changed rg can play me better than anyone there only one of me barry bonds on playing himself in two movies path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net newsserver jvnc net rutgers njitgw njit edu tesla njit edu drm6640 from drm6640 tesla njit edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re re all time best players message id apr21 tesla njit edu date apr gmt sender news njit edu organization new jersey institute of technology lines nntp posting host tesla overall career don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com darwin sura net howland reston ans net agate ames pacbell com att out att princeton crux roger from roger crux princeton edu roger lustig subject re bonilla message id apr23 princeton edu originator news nimaster sender news princeton edu usenet news system nntp posting host crux princeton edu reply to roger astro princeton edu roger lustig organization princeton university references news duke edu apr21 princeton edu apr23 island com date fri apr gmt lines in article apr23 island com fester island com mike fester writes in article apr21 princeton edu roger astro princeton edu roger lustig writes when say black mean us born black people for the purposes of this discussion hispanic players were in baseball before and one team in the signed lots of hispanics because they went over better with the local audience than blacks did what about black hispanics good question it my impression not backed by evidence that general south of the borderness seems to exempt one from the hiring firing effect was talking about back in the there were some attempts to hire black cuban ballplayers they were rejected by the commissioner and others and why would more hispanics stick around than blacks don know but remember this is the country that had special racial laws for one group and one group only blacks our national history man you had better do some serious reading really really doubt that you meant to say this well what did mean to say aside from some short lived exceptions such as japanese internment in ww ii only blacks were affected by laws regarding slavery jim crow miscegenation military service etc if my claim of exclusivity is not airtight that is if you can come up with this or that exception fine have cookie but compared to this list no other racial group put up with legal onslaught worth discussing at length roger newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech darwin sura net howland reston ans net agate ames pacbell com att out att princeton crux roger from roger crux princeton edu roger lustig subject re winfield spot on the all time greats team message id apr23 princeton edu originator news nimaster sender news princeton edu usenet news system nntp posting host crux princeton edu reply to roger astro princeton edu roger lustig organization princeton university references blue cis pitt edu apr23 alleg edu date fri apr gmt lines in article apr23 alleg edu luriem alleg edu michael lurie the liberalizer writes in article blue cis pitt edu dtate pitt edu david tate writes in article c5wewd kto murdoch acc virginia edu drw3l delmarva evsc virginia edu david robert walker writes in article blue cis pitt edu dtate pitt edu david tate writes ielding rf of all time as far as anyone can tell did quick scan last night looking for players with peak comparable to or better than winfield in my quick dirty subjective judgement you could make good cases for ruth aaron ott robinson clemente kaline maris klein jackson waner and probably few others this is not knock on winfield but comment on his consistency all of those other players had awesome stretches and very good stretches while winfield has been more uniformly excellent hall of fame absolutely top peak not so sure top total career value yes almost certainly point taken when was winfield peak years anyway probably around that the trouble what peak years he wavers between excellent and very good with no real bell shaped pattern in there was fine year and were merely really good with the yankees think was the best that was the one with the ba of course wasn bad either he been in the bigs since with one year intermission for surgery though he doesn have the mix of skills that pete rose did he like pete rose in one way he not natural hitter winfield swing used to be the ugliest thing in new york and that includes the gulf western building but his sheer athletic prowess and physical size made up for lot fascinating player to watch even now not obviously great in any one way but able to do quite few things in surprising ways and at surprising levels roger newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu utnut torn nott bnrgate bcrka451 bcrks81 jimdean from jimdean bnr ca jim dean subject re rule book trivia message id apr21 bcrka451 bnr ca sender e00 corkstown news server reply to jimdean bnr ca organization bell northern research references io20456 maine maine edu date wed apr gmt lines in article io20456 maine maine edu ryan robbins io20456 maine maine edu writes this week play it took three days to get to us but ll try anyway as naturally haven seen the answer with runners at first and second and one out the batter hits an easy pop fly to the third baseman the umpires declare the infield fly rule and the third baseman lets the ball drop the runner at second heads for third and the third baseman flips the ball to the short stop who tags the bag before the runner safe the correct call is infield fly batter out if fair runners may advance at own risk gotta tag up if caught etc it is not force and the pop was not caught so regardless of whether the ss tags or it wasn clear above he hasn got the runner out the umpires don declare the infield fly rule and the third baseman allows the ball to drop and throws to the short stop who tags the runner from second while the runner is between second and third out see rule approved ruling below in this case the umpire has decided for whatever reason that the infield fly rule doesn apply sounds like bad call here but that not the point the batter is not out so force situation is created therefore the runner is out unless by rule the ball is dead and the batter is safe then guess the runners would advance unmolested can really tell from that the ball is dead in this situation what the call in and pertinent rules definition of infield fly when an infield fly is called runners may advance at their own risk if on an infield fly rule the infielder intentionally drops fair ball the ball remains in play despite the provisions of rule the infield fly rule takes precedence batter is out when an infielder intentionally drops fair fly ball or line drive with first first and second first and thrid or first second and third base occupied before two are out the ball is dead and the runners or runners shall return to their original base or bases approved ruling in this situation the batter is not out if the infielder permits the ball the drop untouched to the ground except when the infield fly rule applies jim dean internet jimdean bnr ca national capital baseball league mild mannered computer scientist phone president pitcher my knuckler bell northern research ottawa ont booth not too legit to hit phone fax phone path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu not for mail from mbohler udcps3 cps udayton edu michael bohler newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re how to speed up games marginally realistic date apr organization university of dayton computer science dept dayton oh lines sender daemon cs utexas edu message id m0nll6s ahc udcps3 cps udayton edu references c5she2 lkf ucdavis edu nntp posting host cs utexas edu to really speed up the game umps need to start calling strikes the way they used to talking about making the strike zone start at the knees and go up to the top of the letters forget this the strike zone is in the general area of the groin lot less and counts and quicker game newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu ncar rsf atd ucar edu amj from amj rsf atd ucar edu anthony michael jivoin subject advertised commercialized to death message id apr21 ncar ucar edu sender news ncar ucar edu usenet maintenance organization national center for atmospheric research date wed apr gmt lines during the local rockies broadcast the other day don baylor went out to bring in relief pitcher and graphic came up on the screen that it was the so and so sponsored pitching change saw another game where the pinch hitter was sponsored at other times during the game rockies announcer duane kuiper was setting up the strategy that the defense might use with the expectation that charlie jones would jump in and discuss the situation but what does charlie do he read beer advertisement and leaves duane hanging duane strategy proved prophetic these examples happen over and over on radio and braodcasts making them sometimes very boring to listen to guess it just matter of time before player sells his name to budweiser nike etc don think it will be long until we hear nike budweiser drills it deep to left field chevrolet goes back back it gone the apple macintoshes formerly the boston red sox are the world champions back to work anthony jivoin national center for atmospheric research rsf atd fl1 box boulder co rockies fans have the brooms ready for the marlins this weekend path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net newsserver jvnc net rutgers njitgw njit edu tesla njit edu drm6640 from drm6640 tesla njit edu newsgroups rec sport baseball subject apology for article message id apr21 tesla njit edu date apr gmt sender news njit edu organization new jersey institute of technology lines nntp posting host tesla it me again apologize to everyone out there whom might have pissed off with that one article about don mattingly when said he was the best first basemam in history meant fielding first baseman which he is no one can argue with that path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu sol ctr columbia edu usenet ucs indiana edu master cs rose hulman edu master cs rose hulman edu news from rickert nextwork rose hulman edu john rickert newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re players rushed to majors date apr gmt organization computer science department at rose hulman lines message id qncikinn96s master cs rose hulman edu references hydra gatech edu reply to rickert nextwork rose hulman edu john rickert nntp posting host g215a nextwork rose hulman edu in article hydra gatech edu re4 prism gatech edu russell earnest writes this brings back the long suffering memories of pre chop braves fans who kept being promised the bob horner dale murphy back to back power slam who could stop that guess we ll never know why not horner played games in and hit hr murphy played and hit in horner hit in games and murphy hit in games and the braves lost and games john rickert rickert nextwork rose hulman edu newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu msuinfo uchinews ncar woods from woods ncar ucar edu greg woods subject re rockies spoon feed game to mets message id apr16 ncar ucar edu organization scientific computing division ncar boulder co references apr14 colorado edu hpcc01 corp hp com date fri apr gmt lines in article hpcc01 corp hp com boell hpcc01 corp hp com donald boell writes is it just me or does bichette look totally lost in the outfield he been playing horrible defense baylor said after wednesday game that he wanted to shake up the lineup little because bichette has been having rough time defensively and jerald clark has not been hitting he was true to his word went to thursday game and gerald young was in right and daryl boston who has very hot bat was in left baylor was careful to say though that he didn necessarily mean for these changes to be permanent but he wanted to give these other two shot while clark and bichette were not playing well in defense of bichette it looks like right field in mile high stadium is bitch to play some of the visiting outfielders have been having some problems too although bobby bonilla made great catch crashing into the wall to rob daryl boston of an extra base hit in thursday game greg newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com col hp com news dtc hp com srgenprp frankb from frankb sad hp com frank ball subject re help me adjust my tappits sender news srgenprp sr hp com news administrator message id c5w97l jj1 srgenprp sr hp com date thu apr gmt references jcn lactose rice edu organization hewlettpackardsantarosasystmsdiv rohnertparkca newsreader tin version pl6 lines jeff nichols jcn rice edu wrote and speaking of shims why would the clearance of the valves get smaller need the use of thinner shim because the valves recede into the cylinder head faster than the shims cams wear down frank ball ur frankb sad hp com work hewlett packard fax home valley house drive it175 xt350 seca pl510 rohnert park ca kc6wug law ama dod the nra path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu asuvax ncar noao amethyst organpipe uug arizona edu asphaug from asphaug lpl arizona edu erik asphaug x2773 newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re maxima chain wax message id apr26 organpipe uug arizona edu date apr gmt references c60itu dn myrddin imat com apr25 research nj nec com apr26 linus mitre org sender news organpipe uug arizona edu organization lunar planetary laboratory tucson az lines in article apr26 linus mitre org cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes found some great stuff to clean chain spooge of wheels it called goo gone and cleaned the spooge off my rear wheel faster than the simple green cleaned the bug guts off my headlight wonderful stuff recommend that we officially delcare it dod wonder spooge tm product think you can get that at most head shops not kidding although it seems more appropriate for them to be selling simple green bmwr80gs erik asphaug newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet pipex uknet doc ic ac uk news sys uea ac uk from mjs sys uea ac uk mike sixsmith subject re countersteering faq please post message id mjs zen sys uea ac uk sender news sys uea ac uk organization university of east anglia references mjs zen sys uea ac uk r3t5q k35 sixgun east sun com date thu apr gmt lines egreen east sun com ed green pixel cruncher writes in article zen sys uea ac uk mjs sys uea ac uk mike sixsmith writes ed all of us that argue about gyroscopes etc throughly understand ed the technique of countersteering me including all the ones who think that they countersteer all the way me through corner ed well all the way through decreasing radius corner anyway maybe they are riding around an ever decreasing circle of lies which eventually leads to the truth me the official line here though do have my doubts about it is that the me front brake is applied first followed by the rear brake the idea being me that you avoid locking up the rear after weight transfer takes place if that the official line taught in those rider education classes you were refering to that also don teach countersteering have to question the quality of the classes me too though unfortunately the official line is the one that you have to adhere to if you want to get full licence the examiner guidelines are laid down by the government and the basic rider education courses have no choice but to follow them it surprises me that none of the rider groups here either mag or the bmf make much noise about the fact that the riding test requires you to ride three feet from the kerb all the time in order to pass that the front brake must be applied before the rear that you have to keep looking over your shoulder all the time instead of just when it is justified there probably few more too which can think of for the moment if the riding test could be rejigged bit to include more of the real world survival skills and less of the woefully simplistic crap that it contains now then the accident figures would imho reduce still further don think we should include countersteering knowledge in our test though newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet pipex sunic uts daimi jbuhl from jbuhl daimi aau dk jesper buhl subject re vfr st11 owners get hidden feature message id apr26 daimi aau dk keywords lights sender news daimi aau dk organization daimi computer science department aarhus university denmark references c61r0b c7 world std com apr25 linus mitre org date mon apr gmt lines cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes in article c61r0b c7 world std com daved world std com dave dorfman writes was enjoying lunch this saturday at foodies in milford nh with an assortment of other nedod folks when dean cookson yes he has not left the country yet mentioned that the wiring diagram of the vfr750 shows that the light switch is three position switch my cb750 does it too the switch continuity section of the wiring diagram looks something like this hl low high and my cx500 too first thought it was the wiring diagram that didn fit my machine dean jb path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu malgudi oar net news ysu edu yfn ysu edu ak296 from ak296 yfn ysu edu john daker newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re maxima chain wax wheelies date apr gmt organization st elizabeth hospital youngstown oh lines message id r6jc9 nje news ysu edu references rmugele apr21062229 oasun1 oracle com apr20 acs ucalgary ca reply to ak296 yfn ysu edu john daker nntp posting host yfn ysu edu in article apr20 acs ucalgary ca parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr writes bought it tried it it is truly the miracle spooge my chain is lubed my wheel is clean after km would like to offocially nominate maxima chain wax as another official tm dod product of choice dod darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them albert einstein the eternal champion path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net howland reston ans net usc news service uci edu cerritos edu tanner from tanner cerritos edu newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re posted gif of bmw r100s message id apr26 cerritos edu date apr pst references apr22 news columbia edu organization cerritos college norwalk ca lines if any would care to see any more close ups or different angles can post others to also would be happy to submit one to cerritos if someone wants to write me and tell me how would prefer picture with you in it since most motorcycles don post and are rather similar looking all r100s are more alike than they are different it is the people that are ultimately more interesting from archive policy txt if you already have picture in some machine readable format gif preferred you can ftp it to cerritos edu account anonymous password incoming binary mode and notify me by mail or mail it uuencoded to tanner cerritos edu please include one or two line description for inclusion in aaareadme txt btw have charlie smith pictures available sea bass sears scs8 cunixb cc columbia edu dod stanley id interestingly ve been to stanley id by motorcycle nice little town nice road getting there bruce bruce tanner tanner cerritos edu cerritos college norwalk ca dod nomad newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net agate doc ic ac uk syma leighd from leighd syma sussex ac uk leigh dodd subject help on uk law please message id apr22 syma sussex ac uk organization university of sussex newsreader tin version pl8 date thu apr gmt lines greetings all can anyone let me know status of uk law about riding motorcycles used to ride one about years ago and never took my dot test one of whole list of things wished had done when was young but have passed my car driving test now travel from littlehampton to brighton every day and getting pissed off with the traffic road works thinking about getting cc bike don laugh just to get streetwise and to take my test then to get bigger one to cc now have been told don have to do the cbt but what will have to do to get full licence thanks in advanced leigh leigh dodd engineering and applied science eaps university of sussex brighton bn1 qh uk phone ext fax janet leighd uk ac susx eaps internet leighd eaps susx ac uk path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov ames sun barr news2me ebay sun com west west sun com ale gaijin from gaijin ale japan sun com john little nihon sun repair depot newsgroups rec motorcycles subject personal problems was re so do any police ossifers read date apr gmt organization nihon sun microsystems atsugi technical centre japan lines message id rgap7inn44e west west sun com references ltdv8ainn3hb earth cs utexas edu apr23 dsd es com ltgnt9innfpq earth cs utexas edu nntp posting host ale japan sun com in article ltgnt9innfpq earth cs utexas edu mcguire cs utexas edu tommy marcus mcguire writes can haul my big dic around on my bike or is it boast john little gaijin japan sun com sun microsystems atsugi japan path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net howland reston ans net usc news service uci edu cerritos edu tanner from tanner cerritos edu newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re touring the southwest message id apr26 cerritos edu date apr pst references f3b3w164w fatcity cts com apr24 dsd es com organization cerritos college norwalk ca lines in article apr24 dsd es com bgardner pebbles es com blaine gardner writes make sure you ride us between capitol reef and bryce it been on number of top roads lists did they ever put in any gas stations on us rode through there in skipped fillup at bryce canyon and rode miles before seeing gas station at torrey awesome road recall riding up narrow ridge above feet bruce bruce tanner tanner cerritos edu cerritos college norwalk ca dod nomad path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc zaphod mps ohio state edu malgudi oar net news ysu edu yfn ysu edu ak296 from ak296 yfn ysu edu john daker newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re please tell me they re not permenant scratches date apr gmt organization st elizabeth hospital youngstown oh lines message id r6jjk nsg news ysu edu references mjs zen sys uea ac uk sfppisk00wb64hpo5e andrew cmu edu reply to ak296 yfn ysu edu john daker nntp posting host yfn ysu edu in previous article mjs sys uea ac uk mike sixsmith says catherine barbara saum cs20 andrew cmu edu writes is there way to wax out dull finish minor scrathes while passngering on my fiance bandit my hip pack rubbed against the tail and left nasty dull finish and teeny scratches is there way to get rid of these buff them out wax them out help okay here what to do get drill and sanding disk use say disk and go at it at very low rpm if you don have drill try coarse steel wool and brake fluid dot has an uncanny knack for removing any paint imperfections oh not responsible for misuse or miapplication of either of these techniques dod darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them albert einstein the eternal champion path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester news bbn com usc zaphod mps ohio state edu caen destroyer cs ubc ca unixg ubc ca erich triumf ca ivan from ivan erich triumf ca ivan reid newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re re well blow me down yuk yuk yuk date apr pst organization triumf tri university meson facility lines distribution world message id apr199303372878 erich triumf ca references apr23 news columbia edu c09615bt wuvmd wustl edu nntp posting host erich triumf ca news software vax vms vnews in article c09615bt wuvmd wustl edu brad thone c09615bt wuvmd writes if you haven done it before it can be dangerous it takes some getting used to read ed list yep if ed list is over degrees the wind too strong to ride ivan reid paul scherrer institute ch ivan cvax psi ch gsx600f rg250wd si american degrees not european dod newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu magnus acs ohio state edu arnie from arnie magnus acs ohio state edu arnie skurow subject re black reflector tape message id apr26 magnus acs ohio state edu sender news magnus acs ohio state edu nntp posting host photon magnus acs ohio state edu organization the ohio state university references rckk4inngub cronkite central sun com date mon apr gmt lines in article rckk4inngub cronkite central sun com doc webrider central sun com writes few months ago in one the the motorcycle mags there was an article that mentioned reflector tape that was supposed to be available thru bmw the idea was that the tape would look black in sunlight and reflect in other colors at night to has anyone come across this from bmw or any other source terry mccandlish president of my local bmw club buckeye beemers sells this type of tape it comes as strip approximately and can be cut to sizes needed you can call terry at columbus ohio arnie path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech concert duke news duke edu acpub duke edu infante from infante acpub duke edu andrew infante newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re your opinion and what it means to me message id news duke edu date apr gmt references apr20 bnr ca news duke edu catnip berkeley ca us sender news news duke edu organization duke university durham lines nntp posting host north1 acpub duke edu in article catnip berkeley ca us bandy catnip berkeley ca us andrew scott beals kc6sss writes infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes since the occurance ve paid many dollars in renumerance taken the drunk class and yes listened to all the self righteous assholes like yourself that think your so above the rest of the world because you ve never had your own little dd suaree the devil made me do it yeah found beelzebub inside worm yeah that it actually it was vodka gordon if remember correctly didn even buy it of course that probably the reason drank so much of it that night never again andy infante you can listen to what everybody says but the fact remains bmw r60 that you ve got to get out there and do the thing yourself dod joan sutherland my opinions dammit have nothing to do with anyone else path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech concert duke news duke edu acpub duke edu infante from infante acpub duke edu andrew infante newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re ok so was little hasty message id news duke edu date apr gmt references news duke edu r3qeb k35 sixgun east sun com jnmoyne moustic lbl gov sender news news duke edu organization duke university durham lines nntp posting host north1 acpub duke edu in article jnmoyne moustic lbl gov jnmoyne lbl gov jean noel moyne writes in article r3qeb k35 sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com ed green pixel cruncher wrote bill breezed through the nc house to lower the intoxification level from to it faces stiff opposition in the senate recently the highway patrol took few of the opposition senators out and gave them some shots and when they hit put them on course dodging cones they failed and will probably change their votes as result did they try to do the course before having few drinks don see senator that has is fat but driven around in limo being good driver no mater how many drinks he has had before jnm yeah really no shit like that jerk loch faircloth that couldn win an election as democrat so he switches to republican the year before this past election and takes terry sanford out with his bitch and moan campaigning typical of nc senate house gubner races swear kick jesse helms in the head if ever got the chance maybe then he get fucking clue as to how the rest of the world lives andy infante you can listen to what everybody says but the fact remains bmw r60 that you ve got to get out there and do the thing yourself dod joan sutherland my opinions dammit have nothing to do with anyone else path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech concert duke news duke edu acpub duke edu infante from infante acpub duke edu andrew infante newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re why wanted police officers to answer my posting message id news duke edu date apr gmt references apr21 iscnvx lmsc lockheed com sender news news duke edu organization duke university durham lines nntp posting host north1 acpub duke edu you really expect cop to answer these honestly first you gotta expect cop to be honest that another story andy infante you can listen to what everybody says but the fact remains bmw r60 that you ve got to get out there and do the thing yourself dod joan sutherland my opinions dammit have nothing to do with anyone else path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech concert duke news duke edu acpub duke edu infante from infante acpub duke edu andrew infante newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re shaft drives and wheelies message id news duke edu date apr gmt references c5sywt f3b unix amherst edu wrs wslack uucp stafford stafford winona msus edu sender news news duke edu organization duke university durham lines nntp posting host north1 acpub duke edu in article stafford stafford winona msus edu stafford vax2 winona msus edu john stafford writes in article wrs wslack uucp wrs wslack uucp bill slack wrote uh folks the shaft doesn have diddleysquatpoop to do with it can get the front wheel off the ground on my ferchrissake the statement above is true to the spirit of the list because it is false statement misinformation that the spirit bill my will do wheelies because it chain drive model wow is that custom made wish could get chain drive for my slashfive so too can do wheelies and be real squiddly andy infante you can listen to what everybody says but the fact remains bmw r60 that you ve got to get out there and do the thing yourself dod joan sutherland my opinions dammit have nothing to do with anyone else path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech concert duke news duke edu acpub duke edu infante from infante acpub duke edu andrew infante newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re new to motorcycles message id news duke edu date apr gmt references news duke edu netnews upenn edu mdennie beryllium sender news news duke edu organization duke university durham lines nntp posting host north1 acpub duke edu apparently the only place to take the msf course around here in nc is at community college that woudl preclude some sort of state subsidation then no andy infante you can listen to what everybody says but the fact remains bmw r60 that you ve got to get out there and do the thing yourself dod joan sutherland my opinions dammit have nothing to do with anyone else path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel wupost uwm edu caen destroyer cs ubc ca unixg ubc ca erich triumf ca ivan from ivan erich triumf ca ivan reid newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re vfr st11 owners get hidden feature date apr pst organization triumf tri university meson facility lines distribution world message id apr199304170408 erich triumf ca references c61r0b c7 world std com nntp posting host erich triumf ca summary light switch allows dual use of high and low beams keywords lights news software vax vms vnews in article c61r0b c7 world std com daved world std com dave dorfman writes was enjoying lunch this saturday at foodies in milford nh with an assortment of other nedod folks when dean cookson yes he has not left the country yet mentioned that the wiring diagram of the vfr750 shows that the light switch is three position switch high beam low beam both beams well the actual ergonomics of the switch make it appear to be position switch but sure enough as deam expected when you balance the toggle switch in the center position both the high and low beams go on this provides very nice light coverage of the road this is true for the st11 and the vfr750 and would expect for any other late model honda with the standard two position light switch thanks to dean for reading the schematics try it you ll like it be bit careful doing this used to balance the switch on my gs550b avec cibie h4 insert so that both beams were on eventually fried the main ignition switch as it wasn designed to pass that sort of current ivan reid paul scherrer institute ch ivan cvax psi ch gsx600f rg250wd si you porsche me pass dod path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu msus1 msus edu stafford winona msus edu user newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re shaft drives and wheelies message id stafford stafford winona msus edu from stafford vax2 winona msus edu john stafford date apr followup to rec motorcycles references r6ce6inndou cronkite central sun com apr22 siemens co at distribution world organization winona state university nntp posting host stafford winona msus edu lines in article apr22 siemens co at mxcrew mx2306 gud siemens co at the mx crew wrote sorry for my stupid question but what do you americans mean with shaft drives my dictionary knows only strange meanings like schaft stiel pfeil strahl welle deichsel schacht shaft bamboozle beat beguile burn or flame deceive hoax hoodwink drive campaign crusade push so shaft drive may be campaign to decieve or crusade of beguile efforts where are true to the spirit of this list wheel revolution swing crusaders of beguile are innefective in revolutions and they cannot swing either therefore shaft drives cannot do wheelies john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel wupost sdd hp com network ucsd edu sdcc12 sdcc13 orovner from orovner sdcc13 ucsd edu oleg rovner newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re shaft drives and wheelies message id sdcc12 ucsd edu date apr gmt references apr23 megatek com snz morgan demon co uk c60n8u i8y cbnewsj cb att com sender news sdcc12 ucsd edu organization university of california san diego lines nntp posting host sdcc13 ucsd edu in article c60n8u i8y cbnewsj cb att com car377 cbnewsj cb att com charles rogers writes so of the hp produced by my fj1100 engine hp watts hp kilowatts is being dumped into leetle tiny rings that watts per ring seems little hot doncha think chuck rogers car377 torreys att com so hey like does this work the other way if was to like you know strap generator to my fzjrr11000krx and route its output to the chain could increase the horsepower meters sec is pretty nice and all but still like to be able to blow away goldwing without going to nitro dod xj1100j big maroon vf700f audace don blame me voted libertarian path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc rutgers igor rutgers edu remus rutgers edu phj from phj remus rutgers edu ju newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re yamaha vs honda opinions message id apr remus rutgers edu date apr gmt references apr20 pts mot com organization rutgers univ new brunswick lines nuet ke pts mot com keith nuetzman x3153 p7625 writes am in hte market for new bike been without for few years the two main bikes looking at seriously are the yamaha virago and the honda shadow vlx am leaning towards the yamaha for its shaft drive the honda is chain insurance in fla is more costly than thought so am staying in this power range thanks in advance for any opinions and or experiences friend of mine who probably reading this right now just bought new yamaha virago after spending hours very late one chilly evening watching him struggle with the bolts had to remove the right peg loosen the brake pedal ve pretty much decided never to get this particular model unless he or someone else wants to change the oil filter for me compared to the minute change he was used to for his honda this is just design flaw oversight in my eyes patricia phj remus rutgers edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu rutgers igor rutgers edu remus rutgers edu phj from phj remus rutgers edu ju newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re help which bikes are short message id apr remus rutgers edu date apr gmt references apr20 ncar ucar edu organization rutgers univ new brunswick lines bean ra cgd ucar edu gregory bean writes help ve got friend shopping for her first motorcycle this is great unfortunately she needs at most seat this is not great so far the only thing we ve found was an old and unhappy looking kz440 have been checking out bikes hoping for lowish seats for few weeks honda twinstar cc fit me well honda hawk cc did not the kawasaki hb sb sh can remember looked like it would fit me well but the price tag was way too large seem to remember thread with point similar to this passing through several months ago did anybody keep that list please post this list or mail me one too patricia phj remus rutgers edu newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet gumby calvin ursa csundh30 from csundh30 ursa calvin edu charles sundheim subject re maxima chain wax wheelies message id csundh30 ursa sender news calvin edu the annoying news pseudo user nntp posting host ursa organization calvin college references rmugele apr21062229 oasun1 oracle com apr20 acs ucalgary ca r6jc9 nje news ysu edu date thu apr gmt lines ak296 yfn ysu edu john daker writes would like to offocially nominate maxima chain wax as another official tm dod product of choice is there an official dod products of choice list if so would the appropriate party please post it erc if its in the faq keep them to yourself got plenty maybe ll go recheck them now just to be sure path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu agate dog ee lbl gov network ucsd edu sdcc12 sdcc3 mtaffe from mtaffe sdcc3 ucsd edu michael taffe newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re good reasons to wave at each other message id sdcc12 ucsd edu date apr gmt references mavenry altcit eskimo com arturo infmx bbnv8cq quantum qnx com sender news sdcc12 ucsd edu organization university of california san diego lines nntp posting host sdcc3 ucsd edu in article bbnv8cq quantum qnx com dagibbs quantum qnx com david gibbs writes but on similar note for while drove vw wesfalia this is their camper van conversion found that other drivers of this same model would wave to me and waved back maybe its because we were all driving funny looking vehicle no it is more because van drivers need little support for driving such underpowered pathetic and truly utilitarian vehicles me and my used to wave and be waved at all across the country between nh and co now that we live in so cal though find you have to damn near wave your arm off to keep up with all the van drivers this is truly vee dub heaven peace taffe mike taffe disclaim this mtaffe ucsd edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net uunet news tek com tekgen interceptor davet from davet interceptor cds tek com dave tharp cds newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re looking for movies bikes message id tekgen bv tek com date apr gmt references csundh30 ursa c5w18w dpd dcs qmw ac uk sender news tekgen bv tek com organization tektronix colorado data systems englewood co lines in article c5w18w dpd dcs qmw ac uk davide dcs qmw ac uk dave edmondson writes eat the peach two guys build wall of death to alleviate boredom get mixed up with the ira in the process an excellent movie not essentially about motorcycles but very poignant look at life in rural ireland dave tharp dod you can wear out davet interceptor cds tek com mra an indian scout k75s indian chief ahrma or its brother the chief r90s tr ama they re built like rocks r50 velorex nsu max to take the knocks bmw r12 compulsive it the harleys that my employer has no idea joiner give you grief path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net uunet news tek com tekgen interceptor davet from davet interceptor cds tek com dave tharp cds newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re volvo attack message id tekgen bv tek com date apr gmt references apr21 linus mitre org bd apr21150413 bd uucp sender news tekgen bv tek com distribution na organization tektronix colorado data systems englewood co lines in article bd apr21150413 bd uucp bd fluent dartmouth edu writes cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes where can get rocket launchers for the vfr batf is having fire sale in waco tx try there you might try the rec models rockets newsgroup interesting stuff some of it should probably be classified as artillery dave tharp dod you can wear out davet interceptor cds tek com mra an indian scout k75s indian chief ahrma or its brother the chief r90s tr ama they re built like rocks r50 velorex nsu max to take the knocks bmw r12 compulsive it the harleys that my employer has no idea joiner give you grief path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net uunet news tek com tekgen interceptor davet from davet interceptor cds tek com dave tharp cds newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re looking for movies bikes message id tekgen bv tek com date apr gmt references speedy engr latech edu apr21 virginia edu apr22 news arc nasa gov sender news tekgen bv tek com organization tektronix colorado data systems englewood co lines silver dream racer frustrated brit club racer buddy dies leaving him built in garage revolutionary experimental gp bike brit club racer uses machine to beat bad american on bad japanese factory bike at british gp filmed at silverstone believe pretty bad dave tharp dod you can wear out davet interceptor cds tek com mra an indian scout k75s indian chief ahrma or its brother the chief r90s tr ama they re built like rocks r50 velorex nsu max to take the knocks bmw r12 compulsive it the harleys that my employer has no idea joiner give you grief path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu cis ohio state edu news sei cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu andrew cmu edu cs20 from catherine barbara saum cs20 andrew cmu edu newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re magnetic tank bags date mon apr organization temporary employment service carnegie mellon pittsburgh pa lines message id sfqxzoy00yun4igx0k andrew cmu edu nntp posting host po3 andrew cmu edu in reply to apr22 aber ac uk what about disks won it erase them if you re carrying them in the bag cathy cathy saum cs20 andrew cmu edu negley ave yamaha seca xj650 pgh pa cl450 custom wooden tank studio mustang v8 dod supercalifragilisticexpealidotious what we see is what we know but what we feel is who we are what we feel is what nobody can ever take away mcnally until your heart stops newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel wupost zaphod mps ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu mgarber from mgarber magnus acs ohio state edu the hypeman subject any used gsx for sale message id apr26 magnus acs ohio state edu sender news magnus acs ohio state edu nntp posting host magnusug magnus acs ohio state edu organization the ohio state university distribution na date mon apr gmt lines recently sold my nighthawk in order to upgrade to zippy little sport bike am however partial to the bigger zippy bikes like the gsx there is only one in my town for sale and he is not sure whether he wants to part with it or not please send me email if you would like to sell yours know of one for sale or could just offer details on the performance of yours even if you wouldn sell appreciate any help the hypeman pontiac se mercury topaz gs looking for bike baby booom mrs baby booom gsx under modification under construction cbr f2 she likes his hers vfr750f path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com network ucsd edu sdcc12 sdcc14 ma13scf from ma13scf sdcc14 ucsd edu rhett barnes newsgroups rec motorcycles subject zx help message id sdcc12 ucsd edu date apr gmt sender news sdcc12 ucsd edu organization university of california san diego lines nntp posting host sdcc14 ucsd edu need help getting my zx c3 to behave ve managed to get the front suspension to be very happy but the rear sucks can do anything with it to make it feel ok the bike is very stable through the corners think because have the front just right but when the straights get bumpy the rear is torturous it feels like it actually amplifies the bumps and the damping doesn seem to do anything in real life although you can tell the difference when the bike isn moving ve tried cm of sag from completeley unloaded but don know which way to go has anyone gotten the rear of this bike comfortable and if so what kind of settings esp what sag did you use like to corner but also would like my kidneys to remain intact this thing makes the new zx feel comfy rbarnes sdcc13 ucsd edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net agate ames ncar uchinews mimsy nocusuhs nmrdc1 dsc3jfs from dsc3jfs nmrdc1 nmrdc nnmc navy mil jim small newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re your opinion and what it means to me message id c5wduw l1o nmrdc1 nmrdc nnmc navy mil date apr gmt references news duke edu apr20 bnr ca news duke edu organization naval medical research development command lines in article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes since the occurance ve paid many dollars in renumerance taken the drunk class and yes listened to all the self righteous assholes like yourself that think your so above the rest of the world because you ve never had your own little dd suaree some of us aren that fucking stupid you cock sucking asshole that why we haven had our own little dd suaree soo impressed that you ve had to spend your own precious little dollars to make up for your own stupid act now go fuck off friends killed by drunk driving assholes like andress infante children friends orphaned by drunk driving assholes like infante now who the self righteous asshole you weak willed fuck head hate the b2 the b2 can bite me newsgroups rec motorcycles ba motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu uunet mnemosyne cs du edu nyx mfox from mfox nyx cs du edu mark fox subject re battery storage why not charge and store dry message id apr22 mnemosyne cs du edu sender usenet mnemosyne cs du edu netnews admin account organization university of denver dept of math comp sci references apr16 csd newshost stanford edu date thu apr gmt lines quite right your batteries should be perfectly alright and retain most of their charge if drained and dried well but throw out the electrolyte and buy some more when you need it and before anyone says wrong remember that new batteries almost always come ready charged and dry and they are perfectly ok even after several years storage at the shop mark fox path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet vtserf cc vt edu joesbar cc vt edu ranck from ranck joesbar cc vt edu wm ranck newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re so do any xxxx mean police officers read this stuff date apr gmt organization virginia tech blacksburg virginia lines message id r6ob9 oav vtserf cc vt edu references c5u4dl a6v athena cs uga edu nntp posting host joesbar cc vt edu newsreader tin version pl9 allan hatcher ahatcher athena cs uga edu wrote well here goes after lurking for long time ll announce myself yes the enemy the enemy that also happens to ride an arrest me red vfr don generally consider police officers the enemy hope you don think bikers in general have that attitude stereotypes suck either way ll entertain questions but my answers will reflect georgia law and may not apply in your state anyone got nomex suit for sale you shouldn get flamed for being cop can promise you won because there are jerks on this newsgroup same as any other but if you ve been lurking for while you already know that you might get lots of flames if you try to convince people that you know more than them just because you have badge and of course you will get moderate amount of flamage just for expressing an opinion no matter what the opinion is somebody will flame you for it so have you ordered any official dod paraphenalia yet wristwatch bandana patches tell your boss your going undercover with real badass biker gang bill ranck bill ranck vt edu computing center virginia polytchnic inst state univ blacksburg va xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec motorcycles harley rec motorcycles newsgroups rec motorcycles harley rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech asuvax ncar hsdndev dartvax russell hughes from russell hughes dartmouth edu rph subject re dyna vs crane message id c63djf c2q dartvax dartmouth edu posted from internews b14 dartmouth edu sender news dartvax dartmouth edu the news manager organization hog heaven references c5qpzo hdq cbnewsm cb att com date mon apr gmt lines in article c5qpzo hdq cbnewsm cb att com shz mare att com keeper of the tude writes plan to switch to single fire ignition in about month and was curious if anyone has experience with the supposedly new crane single fire that competes with the dyna the club wrench not the wench has done dyna modules for several friends and ll get one also unless bunch of folks say the crane is better one guy just installed the mc power arc ignition but has not yet reported the results it was not simple bolt in replacement as new mounting holes had to be drilled recognize it more fun to discuss why chris needed to change brands of penis enhancer but how bout some comments on single fire ignitions for while just installed mc power arc ii and it seems to run great also used mc coils and neither the ignition module or the coils required any new mounting holes to be drilled on my fxstc little soldering and all was fine static timing was real easy to set too on the other side of the coin my local wrench whose opinion invariably seek but don always adopt thinks mc power arc is piece of shit and says all them jap chips are gonna fail you one day needless to say he doesn like any electronic ignition modules and recommends the dyna system think that the one with the hall effect timing sensor correct russ hughes fxstc dod e20 the chrome and steel she rides collidin with the very air she breathes young newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com caen nigel msen com yale edu yale gumby destroyer cs ubc ca unixg ubc ca kakwa ucs ualberta ca acs ucalgary ca parr from parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr subject re cb750 with flames out the exhaust message id apr22 acs ucalgary ca date thu apr gmt references c5quw0 btq ux1 cso uiuc edu apr19 bnr ca apr20 research nj nec com nntp posting host acs3 acs ucalgary ca organization the university of calgary alberta lines in article apr20 research nj nec com behanna syl nj nec com chris behanna writes in article apr19 bnr ca dave dal farra gpz750 bnr ca writes reminds me of great editorial by bruce reeve couple months ago in cycle canada he was so pissed off with cops pulling over speeders in dangerous spots and often blind corners that one day he decided to get revenge cruising on factory loaner zzr1100 test bike he noticed cop had pulled over motorist on an on or off ramp with almost no shoulder being bright lad he hit his bike kill switch just before passing the cop who happened to be bending towards the offending motorist there by exposing his glutes to the passing world with his ignition system now dead he pumped his throtle two or three times to fill his exhaust canister with volatile raw fuel all it took was stab at the kill switch to re light the ignition and send flame in sargeant swell direction wonder if any cycle cops read cycle canada although agree with the spirit of the action do hope that the rider ponied up the or so it takes to replace the exhaust system he just destroyed the owner manual explicitly warns against such behavior for exactly that reason you can destroy your muflers that way one more good reason for straight pipes or megaphones regards charles dod0 rz350 ps does anyone know if opti oils sells direct by the case load my loacl dealership is charging for jug of injector oil and it breaking me within the span of the last few weeks have heard elements of separate threads which in that they have been conjoined in time struck together to form new chord within my hollow and echoing gourd unknown net person path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com emory news feed peachnet edu umn edu msus1 msus edu stafford winona msus edu user newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re shaft drives and wheelies message id stafford stafford winona msus edu from stafford vax2 winona msus edu john stafford date apr followup to rec motorcycles references c5sywt f3b unix amherst edu wrs wslack uucp stafford stafford winona msus edu news duke edu distribution world organization winona state university nntp posting host stafford winona msus edu lines in article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante wrote my will do wheelies because it chain drive model wow is that custom made no it is the stock setup someone really ought to put an end to the confusion regarding bmw chain drive boxers didn someone post the faq on this some time ago in essence it describes the problem bmw is having with their decision to settle down to shaft drive as standard they vacilate and persist in reintroducing the chain drive in various models gosh well on with the crusade john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu msus1 msus edu stafford winona msus edu user newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re zeno countersteering paradox unveiled message id stafford stafford winona msus edu from stafford vax2 winona msus edu john stafford date apr followup to rec motorcycles references apr26 acfcluster nyu edu distribution world organization winona state university nntp posting host stafford winona msus edu lines in article apr26 acfcluster nyu edu mullignj acfcluster nyu edu wrote therefore there is point in time when even though my front wheel is turned to the right must be going straight ahead the point when go from the right turn to the left what you are trying to describe is that transition point where the front wheel actually reverses direction turns backwards john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu linac att cbnews nak from nak cbnews cb att com neil kirby subject re two beemer questions r80gs organization at date mon apr gmt message id c63f4o l75 cbnews cb att com references cforrzy00iuziatonn andrew cmu edu apr22 microsoft com apr23 organpipe uug arizona edu lines in article apr23 organpipe uug arizona edu asphaug lpl arizona edu erik asphaug x2773 writes hello folks very happy with my new r80gs my range is miles on gallons that mpg surprisingly the bike is real cruiser was expecting something rough she sweet backroad honey and can go pretty much anyplace take my mountain bike as far as shaft effect it more torque effect from the crankshaft in my opinion rev it sitting still when the driveshaft is not moving and the bike twists bit maybe if the clutch is in then large chunk of counter rotating mass is not rotating hence at light reving makes it twist shaft effect is the rear end rising under power or the real problem getting lower to the road when the throttle is snapped shut say when you are cornering and the heads are real close to the road new gs bikes with the paralever shaft have almost no shaft effect don ride her fast enough to get shaft effect but in my opinion little buffeting by wind is of far greater consequence okay here are my questions any recommendations for home made fairing like to keep the wind off my chest and perhaps my helmet for comfort at highway speeds mph yet don want to screw up the stability or block my vision too much for trail riding anybody have luck with two piece detachible fairings like to make it myself out of plexiglas run two lights the standard headlamp plus sidelamp mounted on the crash bar the illumination excellent that way with full beam coming out from the level of the motor left side the lamp beam is linear so that you get bright streak of illumination from left to right and it really picks up the periphery deer lurking etc combined with the headlamp on high you can see like day but ve heard that bmw alternators don crank out too much do need to shut down the sidelamp when puttering around in the dirt at low rpm it question of how long you spend at low rpm and how much you need the extra light at low rpm and under they don charge all that much if at all the alternators put out sufficient wattage it just that you need to be at rpm to get it this is embarassing having trouble starting the bike first thing in the morning invariably flood the carbs then go in and read section of the paper and then she starts right up is this zen thing full choke open the gas taps hit the starter and ever so slightly blip the throttle it should fire cranking should be done with minimal throttle my r100 likes the throttles to be raised just bit off idle it an experience thing like zen it hard to describe it can be hard to learn if you aren paying atttention to the differences between success and failure especially if you get really pissed off and flatten the battery while trying to get it to run if my bike has been sitting for few weeks give it short while to start if it doesn turn it off and wait few minutes for things to vaporize in the fuel system and then it lights right off ve got dual plugs which make it easier to start the hayne manual says do not under any circumstances use gasoline with alcohol additives yeah right what do you folks due to keep the engine and carbs from being eaten by ethanol and methanol any particular brands of gas that are best additives the big fix is the bing carb upgrade kit it good for few mpg and the parts are alcohol proof the parts it replaces aren alcohol proof as long as the bike isn going to sit for long periods of time gasohol is nice since it helps keep ping away if your bike doesn ping on cheap gas you ought to raise the compression half smiley the bmw twins of the and beyond have lowered compression to keep the epa happy dual plugs and higher compression give back big chunk of the lost perfomance neil kirby dod nak archie cbusa att com at bell labs columbus oh usa if you think speak for at you might have more lawyers than sense path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net agate ames sun barr news2me ebay sun com seven up east sun com sixgun east sun com laser egreen from egreen east sun com ed green pixel cruncher newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re good reasons to wave at each other date apr gmt organization sun microsystems rtp nc lines distribution world message id r6qt5 l8g sixgun east sun com references apr21 rd hydro on ca reply to egreen east sun com nntp posting host laser east sun com in article rd hydro on ca jlevine rd hydro on ca jody levine writes has anyone while driving cage ever waved at bikers get the urge but ve never actually done it neigh on every day most don notice let see how many posts it takes for someone to selectively quote this article in article rd hydro on ca jlevine rd hydro on ca jody levine writes has anyone ever done it what do win ed green former ninjaite was drinking last night with biker ed green east sun com and showed him picture of you said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least could do path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu usc elroy jpl nasa gov ames sun barr news2me ebay sun com cronkite central sun com sixgun east sun com laser egreen from egreen east sun com ed green pixel cruncher newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re point for helmet law is point for date apr gmt organization sun microsystems rtp nc lines distribution world message id r6r8a l8g sixgun east sun com references r4nf7 i8n agate berkeley edu reply to egreen east sun com nntp posting host laser east sun com in article i8n agate berkeley edu manish uclink berkeley edu manish vij writes motorcycles are not allowed on th mile drive at pebble beach what are there posted signs what do they cite you for they don it closed access road you pay to get in if you don have resident sticker and they simply don open the gates if you re on bike ed green former ninjaite was drinking last night with biker ed green east sun com and showed him picture of you said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least could do path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu usc elroy jpl nasa gov ames sun barr male ebay sun com news2me ebay sun com cronkite central sun com sixgun east sun com laser egreen from egreen east sun com ed green pixel cruncher newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re ok so was little hasty date apr gmt organization sun microsystems rtp nc lines distribution world message id r6qm6 l8g sixgun east sun com references jnmoyne moustic lbl gov reply to egreen east sun com nntp posting host laser east sun com in article moustic lbl gov jnmoyne lbl gov jean noel moyne writes recently the highway patrol took few of the opposition senators out and gave them some shots and when they hit put them on course dodging cones they failed and will probably change their votes as result did they try to do the course before having few drinks dunno the newpaper article read didn say was wondering the same thing rather doubt it ed green former ninjaite was drinking last night with biker ed green east sun com and showed him picture of you said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least could do path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu msus1 msus edu stafford winona msus edu user newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re shaft drives and wheelies message id stafford stafford winona msus edu from stafford vax2 winona msus edu john stafford date apr followup to rec motorcycles references apr23 megatek com snz morgan demon co uk distribution world organization winona state university nntp posting host stafford winona msus edu lines in article snz morgan demon co uk tony morgan demon co uk tony kidson wrote well maintained chains running in oil without those little rubber rings to cause frictional losses might reach efficiency the average open to the dust ring motorcycle chain probably has difficult job making efficient how about some citations or is this just impressionistic speculation on your part for years ve been laboring under the delusion that chain drives were more efficient that shaft drives chain drives are also stronger ever seen successful shaftie dragster no no flames please ve got both kinds of drives john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu gatech howland reston ans net ira uka de scsing switch ch rediris es taf fundesco es manolo newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re ignition problem message id apr26 rediris es from manolo taf fundesco es manuel arrevola date apr reply to manolo taf fundesco es references apr9 bmerh85 bnr ca organization taf dept fundesco madrid nntp posting host taf fundesco es newsreader tin pl4lines lines snark bmerh327 bnr ca eric nelson writes my nighthawk has two related problems with the ignition system it won start when on cold mornings or so always need to give it gas when starting it even when using the clutch this all still happens after tune up and new battery any ideas on what could be wrong with the bike think you have the choke starter jet blocked and even the idle one manuel arrevola velasco mail manolo taf fundesco es fundesco zx calle alcala dr madrid dod tel don waste your time express it newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester rit isc newsserver ritvax isc rit edu wba2320 from wba2320 ritvax isc rit edu subject st time biker iso advice message id apr26 ultb isc rit edu sender news ultb isc rit edu usenet news system nntp posting host vaxc isc rit edu reply to wba2320 ritvax isc rit edu organization rochester institute of technology date mon apr gmt just starting out with motorcycles ve read up on the subject bit talked to many of my friends who own ride bikes and encourage me to do the same but when ask about what kind of bike should be looking at get varied answers about large athletic build suppose that would help to determine the size bike want want something that going to be fast and powerful enough to satisfy certain cravings once used to it also want something that is not going to be like bronc my first time out any ideas bill replys are prefered through mail thanks in advance newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel wupost uwm edu linac att cbnews nak from nak cbnews cb att com neil kirby subject re vfr st11 owners get hidden feature organization at date mon apr gmt message id c63gcr mfd cbnews cb att com keywords lights references c61r0b c7 world std com lines warning warning may cause unpleasantness in article c61r0b c7 world std com daved world std com dave dorfman writes was enjoying lunch this saturday at foodies in milford nh with an assortment of other nedod folks when dean cookson yes he has not left the country yet mentioned that the wiring diagram of the vfr750 shows that the light switch is three position switch high beam low beam both beams well the actual ergonomics of the switch make it appear to be position switch but sure enough as deam expected when you balance the toggle switch in the center position both the high and low beams go on this provides very nice light coverage of the road this is true for the st11 and the vfr750 and would expect for any other late model honda with the standard two position light switch it make before break type of switch if not required it ought to be for high low beams there might be wee problem with this if you use both filaments at the same time the bulb is tossing out great deal more heat than normal possibly enough to shorten it life span my honda crx cage cage that really wanted to be bike had wimpy stock lights so we used to run around with both beams on made mucho big difference until both low beam filaments died nearly simultaneously this was two weeks after finding out how nice it was to use both beams replaced the lights with quartz halogen lights and that ended the problem neil kirby dod nak archie cbusa att com at bell labs columbus oh usa if you think speak for at you might have more lawyers than sense path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu usc newshub sdsu edu mintaka james from james mintaka sdsu edu michael james newsgroups rec motorcycles subject suzuki gr650 for sale date apr gmt organization san diego state university college of sciences lines message id r6rfd a9c pandora sdsu edu nntp posting host mintaka sdsu edu newsreader tin version pl9 article crossposted from sdnet forsale rec motocycle author was michael james posted on apr gmt must sell my motorcycle it is gr650 tempter it has miles and runs well includes cover and tank bag asking for it all mail me if you want to take look at it michael james james mintaka sdsu edu pa michael james james mintaka sdsu edu pa still no neat sig oh well newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu hobbes physics uiowa edu news iastate edu help cc iastate edu eerik from eerik iastate edu eerik villberg subject re what octane message id eerik help cc iastate edu sender news news iastate edu usenet news system organization iowa state university ames ia references jnmoyne moustic lbl gov apr21 znext cts com date thu apr gmt lines what about ethanol it available here in corn country and its octane is rated at or and costs the same as normal octane eerik villberg people for the eerik iastate edu eating of harris street tasty ames ia animals newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net darwin sura net howland reston ans net noc near net uunet newsflash concordia ca mizar cc umanitoba ca klinger from klinger ccu umanitoba ca jorg klinger subject re shaft drives and wheelies message id c63goz bsy ccu umanitoba ca sender news ccu umanitoba ca nntp posting host ccu umanitoba ca organization university of manitoba winnipeg canada references apr19 vax5 cit cornell edu hpcc01 corp hp com date mon apr gmt lines in hpcc01 corp hp com gharriso hpcc01 corp hp com graeme harrison writes hpcc01 rec motorcycles xlyx vax5 cit cornell edu pm apr is it possible to do wheelie on motorcycle with shaft drive mike terry virago ve seen em but the real question is can one do wheelie on lead wing if so how high would the front wheel be off the ground graeme harrison there was guy around here who would do them on an early pre fairing wing with hannigan he would get it right up and ride ways pretty intimidating sight he was real good he had to be guess you wouldn get away with chopping the throttle more than once jorg klinger gsxr1100 if you only new who arch eng services lost horizons cr500 think am umanitoba man ca the embalmer it175 anonymous squidonk newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet pipex uknet bnr co uk bmdhh130 npet from npet bnr ca nick pettefar subject re type spesifications cb vfr gt etc message id apr22 bnr ca sender news bnr ca news administrator nntp posting host bmdhh299 organization bnr europe ltd maidenhead uk newsreader tin version pl8 references hpfcso fc hp com date thu apr gmt lines victor johnson on the thu apr gmt wibbled in rec motorcycles cjackson adobe com curtis jackson writes in article c5sk1d c1p srgenprp sr hp com frankb sad hp com frank ball writes honda designates engine street bike vf for vt for twin so how about my honda hawk nt it twin but not called vt that because they took the old vt engine and stepped on it to make the plant for the hawk new twin or does that only fly for microsoft nt new technology ve been at this too long today cheers victor dances with hawks johnson also the bmw stuff k100rs kraut rs really slow suppose that how much you have to spend each week to keep the damn thing on the road nick the pissed off with his bike again biker dod concise oxford lud nick pettefar contractor large teneo tuus intervallum cuurrently incarcerated at bnr npet bnr ca bmw k100rs kay maidenhead the united kingdom pres pbwasoh uk bs newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu csc ti com tilde csc ti com m2 dseg ti com ernest cmptrc neal from neal cmptrc lonestar org neal howard subject re dogs vs bikes message id c5w9i5 cyb cmptrc lonestar org sender neal cmptrc lonestar org date thu apr gmt organization computrac inc richardson tx lines my first encounter with dog chasing after my bike was on my first poker run big german shepard ran out into the pack of bikes was riding with and tried to bite the right leg of the guy riding in front of me he kicked the dog couple of times we were all only going about mph and just made the dog angrier and got away by applying wfo and outrunning the dog who then started after yours truly at the time had open drag pipes obnoxiously loud as hell and as soon as the dog was about feet away from the right side of my bike pulled in the clutch and revved the motor up to about rpm and the roar of the pipes frightened the dog away probably made the dog ears hurt like hell and he didn come back for the rest of the bikers behind me either my second encounter was with an already deceased road kill dog wasn paying very close attention to the pavement when the car in front of me straddled the carcass looked down just in time to see what was about to run over so just held onto the handlebars and freaked out both wheels went squarely over the dog belly with thump thump just like running over piece of x4 lumber the bike didn lose any stability at all and kept on going after got to my destination found bits of fur meat and blood stuck to the bottom of my motor and frame gross neal howard xlh dod computrac inc richardson tx doh o33 neal cmptrc lonestar org std disclaimer my opinions are mine not computrac let us learn to dream gentlemen and then perhaps we shall learn the truth august kekule newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu csc ti com tilde csc ti com m2 dseg ti com ernest cmptrc irwin from irwin cmptrc lonestar org irwin arnstein subject re dod confessional message id c5wb6w huz cmptrc lonestar org date thu apr gmt references apr21 bnr ca organization computrac inc richardson tx lines in article apr21 bnr ca mbeaving bnr ca writes can help myself ve tried to be rational to look the other way but everytime it happens its uncontrollable hate pre motorcycles crud deleted the beav mike beavington dod v65sabre mbeaving bnr ca my employer has no idea what talking about you are missing out on lot of neat old rides tuba irwin honk therefore am computrac richardson tx irwin cmptrc lonestar org dod r75 newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu asuvax ennews mcdphx schbbs mothost white rtsg mot com svoboda from svoboda rtsg mot com david svoboda subject re where to put your helmet message id apr22 rtsg mot com sender news rtsg mot com nntp posting host corolla18 organization motorola inc cellular infrastructure group references uupcb compdyn questor org date thu apr gmt lines in article uupcb compdyn questor org ryan cousineau compdyn questor org ryan cousineau writes another good place for your helmet is your mirror kid you not if you own typical standard or other bike with fairly average mirrors that screw into your handlebars your helmet should fit over your mirror and be fairly stable butt butt then yu w0nt be able t0 ee the car neak up behind yu and p0p whhheeeeelllleeeee t0 tchum and the chick dig it seriously though putting helmet on mirror is inadvisable because you are then resting the weight of the helmet on the fragile foam liner that is expected to cushion your noggin and once crushed that foam never pops back variation of mirror hanging thing is what do with the bike on the sidestand hey the centerstand is for maintenance turn the wheel to the stop left and can hang the helmet by the chin bar on the right grip there is no crushable foam in the chin bar and it is pretty secure on there as long as the forks are locked if have to leave the helmet with the parked bike and the bags aren on full that is about the most stable place dave svoboda svoboda void rtsg mot com getting tired of concours mmmmmmmmmm beating you up dave rz ring ding woops you never learn ama dod cog chicago beth bruiser dixon newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu csc ti com tilde csc ti com m2 dseg ti com ernest cmptrc neal from neal cmptrc lonestar org neal howard subject re cb750 with flames out the exhaust message id c5w9y0 ebt cmptrc lonestar org sender neal cmptrc lonestar org date thu apr gmt organization computrac inc richardson tx lines hey the lone biker of the apocalypse see raising arizona had flames coming out of both his exhaust pipes love to toggle the kill switch on my sportster to produce flaming backfires especially underneath overpasses at night it loud and lights up the whole underpass neal howard xlh dod computrac inc richardson tx doh o33 neal cmptrc lonestar org std disclaimer my opinions are mine not computrac let us learn to dream gentlemen and then perhaps we shall learn the truth august kekule path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov ames sun barr west west sun com news2me ebay sun com seven up east sun com sixgun east sun com laser egreen from egreen east sun com ed green pixel cruncher newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re funny thing happened on the way to the hon date apr gmt organization sun microsystems rtp nc lines distribution world message id r6s2c l8g sixgun east sun com references cassidy elan rowan edu reply to egreen east sun com nntp posting host laser east sun com in article elan rowan edu cassidy elan rowan edu kyle cassidy writes and see that for the past miles ve been riding with my side stand down oops and who was it that insisted sidestand cutout switches were right up there with tachometers something like curse from god ed green former ninjaite was drinking last night with biker ed green east sun com and showed him picture of you said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least could do newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu csc ti com tilde csc ti com balrog dseg ti com keith from keith balrog dseg ti com keith schauer subject re riceburner respect message id apr26 balrog dseg ti com organization texas instruments information technology group references apr15 cbnewsm cb att com apr19 research nj nec com c5qiwz djm cbnewsm cb att com date mon apr gmt lines in article c5qiwz djm cbnewsm cb att com shz mare att com keeper of the tude writes the only consolation was that she had trouble scraping together the while is not quite one week beer money for me roid well know know how you can afford harley keith schauer texas instruments plain texas cb900 custom dod in an insane society the sane man must appear insane ama my company disavows any knowledge of my actions newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen uwm edu linac uchinews quads gea4 from gea4 quads uchicago edu gerardo enrique arnaez subject which is the better bike message id apr26 midway uchicago edu sender news uchinews uchicago edu news system reply to gea4 midway uchicago edu organization university of chicago date mon apr gmt lines am looking at the honda shadow and the intruder or what have you heard about these bikes also if plan on doing long time riding are these twin cruisers the best bikes to get if dont want something massive like the goldwings path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net darwin sura net howland reston ans net noc near net bigboote wpi edu nntp rtaraz from rtaraz bigwpi wpi edu ramin taraz newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re wing ding date apr organization worcester polytechnic institute worcester ma lines message id rtaraz apr26103250 bigwpi wpi edu references apr21 sue cc uregina ca nntp posting host bigwpi wpi edu in reply to franks hercules cs uregina ca message of wed apr gmt on wed apr gmt franks hercules cs uregina ca derek franks said franks this is my first post so no dod would you like to know what dod is if you do feel free to ask fill up your rtaraz wpi wpi edu is today tank and ex500 good day go for ride dod taurus pt af to die path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu news from mcguire cs utexas edu tommy marcus mcguire newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re so do any xxxx mean police officers read this stuff date apr organization cs dept university of texas at austin lines message id ltdv8ainn3hb earth cs utexas edu references c5u4dl a6v athena cs uga edu r6ob9 oav vtserf cc vt edu nntp posting host earth cs utexas edu in article r6ob9 oav vtserf cc vt edu ranck joesbar cc vt edu wm ranck writes and of course you will get moderate amount of flamage just for expressing an opinion no matter what the opinion is somebody will flame you for it bill ranck bill ranck vt edu hey what the hell do you mean by that you suck have god given right to express opinions carry gun and to not wear helmet goddamn it everything you stand for is stupid you know alan really like this one tommy mcguire mcguire cs utexas edu mcguire austin ibm com will append an appropriate disclaimer to outgoing public information identifying it as personal and as independent of ibm path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net darwin sura net howland reston ans net agate ames sun barr news2me ebay sun com seven up east sun com sixgun east sun com laser egreen from egreen east sun com ed green pixel cruncher newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re countersteering sans hands date apr gmt organization sun microsystems rtp nc lines distribution world message id rgs84 sixgun east sun com references apr23 rtsg mot com reply to egreen east sun com nntp posting host laser east sun com in article rtsg mot com svoboda rtsg mot com david svoboda writes well as many bored bike tourer can tell you the way to steer sans hans is to push your body off to the side you want to lean also known as leaning say you want to turn left severely confused rambling about the ground pushing but the front wheel has trail if the ground pushes the front wheel toward the left at the contact patch the trail will cause the wheel to turn to the right hey there we are no hands counter steering contersteering refers to pushing the inside handlebar to effect lean no hands countersteering is an oxymoron ed green former ninjaite was drinking last night with biker ed green east sun com and showed him picture of you said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least could do xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec motorcycles rec motorcycles harley newsgroups rec motorcycles rec motorcycles harley path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech asuvax ncar hsdndev dartvax russell hughes from russell hughes dartmouth edu rph subject bub pipes live free with variable loudness message id c63e7w cuo dartvax dartmouth edu posted from internews b14 dartmouth edu sender news dartvax dartmouth edu the news manager organization hog heaven date mon apr gmt lines after failing my state of new hampshire noise gestapo test with my hd slash cut pipes installed my new bubs which had been planning to do anyway went to different in spection station and passed with no problem at about db two points first don think the first dude did the noise test correctly holding the meter close to his body probably caused high reading and doing it inside the garage with the door closed undoubtedly enhanced the db level so if any other nh riders need to get this done make sure the inspection is done outdoors with the meter held well away from the body second these bub pipes are bloody terrific at low revs or cruising through town they as quiet as the stock pipes but have sound thats more throaty purring rumble when you open her up to rpm they emit wonderfully satisfying rumbling roar best of both worlds russ hughes fxstc dod e20 the chrome and steel she rides collidin with the very air she breathes young path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net agate cogsci berkeley edu robinson from robinson cogsci berkeley edu michael robinson newsgroups rec motorcycles ba motorcycles subject re need advice for riding with someone on pillion date apr gmt organization institute of cognitive studies berkeley lines distribution usa message id r6upb cg agate berkeley edu references c5t759 dsc well sf ca us apr21 microsoft com nntp posting host cogsci berkeley edu keywords advice pillion help in article apr21 microsoft com patlo microsoft com pat loughery writes also remember that it much more draining and tiring to ride up than by yourself because you re concentrating on much more and in the zen of the moment less remember this the first few times pillioned someone whose safety was great concern to me as opposed to brothers etc almost got us both killed on several occasions was surprised to discover that it is much safer to just drive than to distract yourself by trying to be unusually cautious and concerned abruptly adopting novel set of thought patterns and riding strategies while piloting bike is just asking for trouble michael robinson uucp ucbvax cogsci robinson internet robinson cogsci berkeley edu newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net torn nott cunews freenet carleton ca freenet carleton ca aa963 from aa963 freenet carleton ca lloyd carr subject re yamaha vs honda opinions message id apr22 freenet carleton ca sender news freenet carleton ca news administrator reply to aa963 freenet carleton ca lloyd carr organization the national capital freenet references apr remus rutgers edu apr20 pts mot com date thu apr gmt lines in previous article phj remus rutgers edu ju says nuet ke pts mot com keith nuetzman x3153 p7625 writes friend of mine who probably reading this right now just bought new yamaha virago after spending hours very late one chilly evening watching him struggle with the bolts had to remove the right peg loosen the brake pedal ve pretty much decided never to get this particular model unless he or someone else wants to change the oil filter for me compared to the minute change he was used to for his honda this is just design flaw oversight in my eyes patricia phj remus rutgers edu sure don know what bike was being worked on but it sure wasn virago ve owned both the and and you can do the filter change in about mins and nothing has to be removed obviously the new bike was modified as the stock machine is simple to work on watching for imitators lloyd aa963 freenet carleton ca carr carr uranus dgrc doc ca dod ve3fhc ve3osq amrp org eon on can ca newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu moe ksu ksu edu ux1 cso uiuc edu usenet ucs indiana edu silver ucs indiana edu rstimets from rstimets silver ucs indiana edu robert and stimets subject re strike zone width was re jose canseco swing message id c60rgx iwb usenet ucs indiana edu sender news usenet ucs indiana edu usenet news system nntp posting host silver ucs indiana edu organization indiana university references bd2b37c atlas nafb trw com c5r5b8 d1u ucdavis edu bd51686 atlas nafb trw com distribution na date sun apr gmt lines in article bd51686 atlas nafb trw com mspede atlas nafb trw com writes huckabay counting frames for bat speed discussion ommited well it just studying tape frame by frame that all the biggest thing that you notice however is how bastardized the strike zone has become death to the umpires union the plate is across not call the high strikes strikes and quit calling pitches outside strikes they re balls speaking of this wide strike zone sure like to see cameras placed in each major league park such that an overview shot of home plate is available cbs had this during the ws or did just dream it these pictures would be feedback device for the umpires so that they can see just how terrible or not there calls were tapes could be sent to the league as evidence of bad ball strike umpiring tapes are available as evidence of bad out safe calls on the bases guess that nobody noticed that the calls during the world series and in fact all year have been pretty much consistently correct remember the rule says it strike if any part of the ball passes through the strike zone would certainly agree that high strikes are not called who could argue this point but all in all think in and out is called pretty well rstimets newsgroups rec motorcycles ba motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov ames pacbell com amdahl amdcad allegra ulysses lznj lznj2 ncrhub2 ncratl worwig atlantaga ncr com from wayne orwig atlantaga ncr com wayne orwig subject re battery storage why not charge and store dry message id wayne orwig worwig atlantaga ncr com lines sender root ncratl atlantaga ncr com nntp posting host worwig atlantaga ncr com organization ncr corporation newsreader ftpnuz dos v1 references apr22 mnemosyne cs du edu apr16 csd newshost stanford edu date fri apr gmt in article apr22 mnemosyne cs du edu mfox nyx cs du edu mark fox says quite right your batteries should be perfectly alright and retain most of their charge if drained and dried well but throw out the electrolyte and buy some more when you need it and before anyone says wrong remember that new batteries almost always come ready charged and dry and they are perfectly ok even after several years storage at the shop mark fox makes sense to me after all when steel is manufactured and stored they put oil on it so it won rust logicaly when you store your bike you must strip the paint and put oil on the metal to prevent rus newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet murphy jpradley magpie manes from manes magpie linknet com steve manes subject bmw k75s for sale organization manes and associates nyc date sat apr gmt message id c5ltmm am6 magpie linknet com newsreader tin version pl9 lines miles black leather tank bra tank bag corbin seat metzler tires garaged and pampered can afford to continue paying nyc garage fees for two bikes so one of em has to go best offer above takes it stephen manes manes magpie linknet com manes and associates new york ny usa newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu emory sol ctr columbia edu eff world tac from tac world std com tackey chan subject re hey red sox fans message id c61wdv mp world std com organization the world public access unix brookline ma references apr23 hpcvaac cv hp com date sun apr gmt lines paula koufax cv hp com paul andresen writes woof gawd how hate myself for doing this but sometimes you get those urges that are too powerful to overcome to quote sportscenter bosiooo ooo ooo hey bosio threw no no what the hell red sox fan going to say to that heck remeber matt young last year ick tac newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net howland reston ans net newsserver jvnc net news edu tw news nchud5 nchu edu tw dec8 ncku edu tw eembox ncku edu tw lws from lws eembox ncku edu tw wenhsiang lin subject stats question message id lws eembox ncku edu tw sender usenet dec8 ncku edu tw usenet manager organization national cheng kung university date sun apr gmt lines am just wondering whether the official mlb stats includes intentional walks in the bb category or not wenhsiang lin path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell uw beaver news washington edu carson washington edu knossos from knossos carson washington edu judy broocks newsgroups rec sport baseball subject tickets for sale date apr gmt organization university of washington seattle lines distribution usa message id rf016innffh shelley washington edu nntp posting host carson washington edu my brother purchased baseball tickets for texas rangers vs toronto bluejays in july but he was unable to get vacation days to get there is anyone interested in purchasing the following arlington stadium arlington texas texas rangers vs toronto bluejays thursday july friday july tickets section helmet night each tickets section each if you want them all the total is please contact me over mail or directly to my brother randy hollister rosemont lane streator il my brother would be eternally grateful for someone to purchase these tickets thank you broocks knossos washington edu newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu emory europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net wupost uunet pipex uknet gdt aber news from azw aber ac uk andy woodward subject re dogs message id apr27 aber ac uk sender news aber ac uk usenet news service nntp posting host pcfcfa dbs aber ac uk organization university college of wales aberystwyth references r3m40 usenet ins cwru edu apr23 sol uvic ca date tue apr gmt lines ooooooopsssss for second there thought was in rec beatthelivingcrapoutofadog we re not hell was wondering why there was all the pointless woffle about motorcycles so how do find rec beatthelivingcrapoutofadog dont think our system takes it xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec motorcycles rec motorcycles racing newsgroups rec motorcycles rec motorcycles racing ba motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu convex tobias from tobias convex com allen tobias subject re advantages of slip ons message id apr27 convex com sender usenet convex com news access account nntp posting host hydra convex com organization convex computer corporation richardson tx usa references apr26 kronos arc nasa gov date tue apr gmt disclaimer this message was written by user at convex computer corp the opinions expressed are those of the user and not necessarily those of convex lines in article apr26 kronos arc nasa gov dschlot pioneer arc nasa gov dave schlotthauer writes quick question what are the advantages of slip on versus your stock exhaust versus aftermarket exhaust systems don see many people using slip on but they are heavily advertised and half as expensive thanks dave cost is lower than oem replacements and they weigh less also in most instances you do not have to rejet the carburetors to get little more performance replaced my oem canister with an ontario systems slip on the mid range performance is better but also notice slight stumble at rpm after talking to kaz yoshima the developer and manufacturer of the slip on he thinks might need larger pilot idle jets was not suppose to but maybe where live makes difference altitude barometric pressure anyway besides that minor glitch like the slip on performance and the sound which is louder than stock but not loud enough to annoy folks the ontario slip on use some sort of sound baffling technique to reduce the sound at full throttle just remember every bike is tuned system when you change the intake or exhaust characteristics beyond the allowable delta of the manufacturer you may have to change other areas to compensate like complete change of the exhaust system header and muffler changes the exhaust characteristic to the point which re jetting is required to compensate for the new engine breathing pumping profile talk with the folks who make the slip on you intend to use and ask them if they have used it on your particular bike check with people who have the system also to see what they think about there slip on also as last data point in sport rider first issue did review on group of header and exhaust systems for the cbr600f2 they also included as side bar the ontario slip on the dyno showed an increase from stock of bhp at the rear wheel verses buyer beware of outrageous claimed increases in horse power it may have been true in the past but not today at cbr600f2 allen tobias technical email convex computer corp marketing tobias convex com waterview parkway richardson tx this bike is awesome and fearless let go jay gleason newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net noc near net uunet gatekeeper us oracle com sgiblab newsun news from burnham markb wc novell com subject re advantages of slip ons message id apr27 novell com xxdate tue apr gmt sender news novell com the netnews manager nntp posting host organization novell inc useragent nuntius v1 d12 references apr26 kronos arc nasa gov date tue apr gmt lines in article rigoj isl apple com paul thompson thompson apple com writes it sure would be nice if someone would start making replacements for oem exhausts that were would be cheaper but not louder read about supertrapp system called that was supposed to be quiet enough to pass some european standards apparently it not on the market yet yoshimura makes few systems that are supposed to be kind of quiet they are also really light planning on getting one of these systems soon and will post the results mark mark burnham markb wc novell com ama dod alfa romeo gtv ninja newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net newsserver jvnc net glassboro edu bizlab24 rowan edu cassidy from cassidy elan rowan edu kyle cassidy subject funny thing happened at the dmv the other day message id cassidy elan rowan edu lines sender news gboro glassboro edu usenet news system nntp posting host bizlab24 rowan edu organization rowan college of new jersey references mavenry altcit eskimo com apr21 rd hydro on ca apr22 ttinews tti com apr22 linus mitre org mdennie beryllium date tue apr gmt saw this posted and it brings an interesting event to mind in article mdennie beryllium mdennie xerox com matt dennie writes the reactions of little boys seems to be the most enthusiastic to wave and also good to see always wave when see kid that has at least noticed my bike figure it helps the future of the sport have to admit that usually try to do so without the parental figure noticing afraid that the kid will get yelled at for associatign with anti societal types like us few weeks ago was in the dmv with ken was standing in mile long line waiting for some really bored looking person to fleece bunch of people from some dough ken was sitting on chair next to our helmets wondering why everybody there looked to be about the social calibur of people you would find at laundromat when some young woman walked in who required our conferring attentions he came over and stood in line with me while we watched her fill out some forms and then we noticed little kid about years old reach over the bench and touch our helmets one at time didn particularly mind and neither did ken that the kid was touching our helmets that is but the helmets weren on the most stable of platforms so ken scooted over there to resettle them and as soon as he touched the helmets mother of said child started shrieking at her kid you stay away from those you shit and whopped the tyke brutally about the head and shoulders suppose it was our scary sex drugs and unix shirts that sent such bouts of terror through her body xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec motorcycles harley rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net gatech rutgers cbmvax hartzler from hartzler cbmvax cbm commodore com jerry hartzler cats newsgroups rec motorcycles harley rec motorcycles subject re story respect message id c640ax jqn cbmvax cbm commodore com date apr gmt references apr19 pacesetter com c5umh0 bl nmrdc1 nmrdc nnmc navy mil apr22 skcla monsanto com apr23 pacesetter com reply to hartzler cbmvax cbm commodore com jerry hartzler cats organization commodore west chester pa lines in article apr23 pacesetter com lynn pacesetter com lynn hall writes nudity fine loud noise fine party all night fine but at the right place and time please let not trample over other rights and then bitch because they don treat us like gods michael menard you know wasn even going to respond to this typical anti party attitude message trash was everywhere reason not enough dipsy dumpsters for the massive crowd oatman wasn prepared for the vast number of people that showed up don think michael response was anti party but rather pro environmental agree that you gotta let us hogs out to roam every once in awhile let hope that next year oatman will be better prepared and that we all pick up after ourselves an asshole ve already admitted an asshole many times on the net all my friends are assholes too lyrics to new song so you want dime to call someone that cares well for one thought you told good story even if you say you are an hole we need more biker experiances written to news it unfortunate that you got flamed for telling it but we all know this is controversial group at any rate keep up the good work and continue to post stories jerry fxdl newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu usc elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl pacbell com unet pioneer rmt from rmt pioneer net com richard tweedie subject re touring the southwest message id apr27 unet net com sender news unet net com nntp posting host pioneer organization network equipment technologies references f3b3w164w fatcity cts com date tue apr gmt lines in article f3b3w164w fatcity cts com kim fatcity cts com kim sharpe writes few of us are touring sothwest utah in mid june to see the canyons do any of you have some helpful hints on where to stay or things to see do avoid plans are to see bryce zion arches is the grand close at that point or is an additional trip required any help would be nice thank you for your support no the grand canyon is not too far away short side trips to kolob between cedar city and hurricane and pipe springs on the way from hurricane to the grand canyon may be interesting they are right off the highway pipe springs small fort gives you real insight into just how the pioneers lived you have missed one major must see attraction cedar breaks in the mountains above cedar city take lots of film they have reason for calling this kodachrome country natural bridges in the four corners area is also very scenic but may be too far off your route monument valley is spectacular but again may be too far away rich tweedie path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net newsserver jvnc net louie udel bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu gaia ucs orst edu osshe edu crucej from crucej osshe edu jerry cruce newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re inner tube in tyre safe date apr gmt organization oregon state system of higher education lines message id rjopt n1j osshe edu references speedy engr latech edu nntp posting host osshe edu newsreader tin version pl8 speedy mercer speedy engr latech edu wrote in article apr27 csdvax csd unsw edu au exb0405 csdvax csd unsw edu au writes hello dod ers et al need some advice on inner tubes in tubeless tyres barry manor dod spend the bucks and get new tire dod technician dr speed not student second the commend from dr speed get new tire it like your brakes something you don want to take chances with waited too long to take care of my front tire once and it went flat on me doing mph going down the grapevine towards bakersfield at that instance would of given any amount of money for new tire lucky to be here jerry newsgroups rec motorcycles from tony morgan demon co uk tony kidson path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet pipex demon morgan demon co uk tony subject re info on sport cruisers distribution world references fonhvm00wb4e5huxb andrew cmu edu organization the modem palace reply to tony morgan demon co uk newsreader simple news ka9q dis lines date mon apr message id snz morgan demon co uk sender usenet demon co uk in article fonhvm00wb4e5huxb andrew cmu edu jae cmu edu writes looking for sport cruiser factory installed fairings full half hard saddle bags cc and above and all that and still has that sporty look particularly like the r100rs and k75 rt or or any of the series bmw bikes was wondering if there are any other comparable type bikes being produced by companies other than bmw the honda st1100 was designed by honda in germany originally for the european market as competition for the bmw series check it out tony tony kidson pgp key by request voice morgan towers the cat has had to move now mail in order morgan road as ve had to take the top tony morgan demon co uk bromley off of the machine tny cix compulink co uk england br1 qe honda st1100 dod compuserve com newsgroups rec motorcycles path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc sdd hp com saimiri primate wisc edu caen uvaarpa murdoch dayhoff med virginia edu cdw2t from cdw2t dayhoff med virginia edu dances with federal rangers subject re misc buying info needed message id c5pwky ktv murdoch acc virginia edu sender usenet murdoch acc virginia edu organization university of virginia references apr18 hamp hampshire edu date mon apr gmt lines in article apr18 hamp hampshire edu jyaruss hamp hampshire edu writes is there buying guide for new used motorcycles that lists reliability how to go about the buying process what to look for etc cycle world puts one out but sure it not very objective try talking with dealers and the people that hang out there as well as us we love to give advice is there pricing guide for new used motorcycles blue book most of the bigger banks have blue book which includes motos ask for the one with rvs in it are there any books articles on riding cross country motorcycle camping etc couldn help you here is there an idiots guide to motorcycles you re reading it cliff weston dod seca ii tem the female body is beautiful work of art while the male body is lumpy and hairy and should not be seen by the light of day xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp sys ibm pc misc comp os ms windows misc comp binaries ibm pc wanted comp archives msdos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech prism ccastco from ccastco prism gatech edu costas malamas newsgroups comp sys ibm pc misc comp os ms windows misc comp binaries ibm pc wanted comp archives msdos subject opinions wanted fastest win driver for t8900c message id hydra gatech edu date may gmt followup to comp sys ibm pc misc organization georgia institute of technology lines yesterday friend of mine got new driver for his card that more than doubled the speed naturally besides being tad jealous same machine different cards it got me thinking what if am using slow driver wouldn that be horrible so netlanders need samples of your collective experience sic do you proud owners of trident video card mb vram have tried out more than one driver fro ms win which which is the fastest not to be selfish and to give you motive for responding promise am going to collect all the answers and the actual drivers provided give me site to get it from or uuencode mail get the winmarks using pc magazine winbench and post the results here am interested in svga drivers only plain vga users should run the win driver or this is what ve heard dont flame me particularly x600x16 and or x600x256 that should cover the majority of svga users well what are you waiting for hit that or or whatever all input welcome so are money and sun sparcstations thanx in advance costas malamas georgia institute of technology oit ua oit doesn pay me enough to share their opinions internet ccastco prism gatech edu newsgroups rec sport baseball path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu asuvax ncar destroyer cs ubc ca newsserver sfu ca sfu ca roney from roney selkirk sfu ca chris roney subject re the babe the pride of the yankees message id roney sfu ca sender news sfu ca organization simon fraser university burnaby canada references c5uc4l bnv cc swarthmore edu date wed apr gmt lines behrens cc swarthmore edu eric behrens writes the babe and the pride of the yankees offer very different renditions of the sotry about ruth and gherig hitting home runs for the boy in the hospital can some historian out there explain history version of the story wouldn put is past either or both of the movies to season the truth with little extra spice any other comments as to inaccuracies in these two movies good question kind of wondered about this myself just one thought had on it the babe himself was in pride of the yankees which made me think that version may be closer to the truth and the babe must have been pretty good gut to be in the movie even though some of the scenes didn make him look completely flattering chris roney mail chris roney sfu ca xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc from twalls ncc1701d demon co uk tim walls path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu math ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu utnut torn nott bnrgate bnr co uk uknet warwick qmw dcs qmw demon twalls subject re re re challenge to microsoft supporters distribution world references twalls tm ncc1701d demon co uk c6kdq4 hb news udel edu twalls ut ncc1701d demon co uk may93 vax clarku edu newssoftware grn by mike schwartz michael smith organization panorama bbs development date mon may message id twalls vo ncc1701d demon co uk sender usenet demon co uk lines in article may93 vax clarku edu rmohns vax clarku edu writes and would hardly call command that can delete tree and move command as state of the art wiz bang feature they are damn necessary have often cursed not being able to have some kind of recursive delete you are missing something with the windows file manager you can ms but don want to have to run blasted windows every time want to delete tree it is absolutely ludicrous to load hog like that just to delete some files it would be like requiring crane to change the tyre on car wants people to buy windows not dos ms knows dos won last forever only because its crap which is noones fault but their own they want you to move to windows then later to win32 and eventually to cairo this way they give you reason to by deliberately crippling the product surely no oh hold on guess you re right that certainly stinks of microsoft marketing techniques but the point still remains that command to delete trees is not new technology and is the kind of thing one would have expected to see long before windows was even dreamt of want good file handling use fileman exe this product requires microsoft windows dos is dead well amen to that but wish it were damn sight deader for dead product its used an awful lot and suspect its going to carry on twitching for long while yet which isn doing anyone any good and microsoft don appear to have given up marketing dos so it is very unusual form of death indeed tim walls sysop protocol bbs data fax fidonet amiganet twalls ncc1701d demon co uk pgp public key available path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech concert duke news duke edu keynes econ duke edu fls from fls keynes econ duke edu forrest smith newsgroups rec sport baseball subject re highlights message id news duke edu date apr gmt references apr26 adobe com sender news news duke edu organization duke university durham lines nntp posting host keynes econ duke edu in article apr26 adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes might suggest that more appropriate forum for game by game highlights of particular team is mailing list rather than rec sport baseball looked up might to see why you selected that particular word and discovered the line to express permission liberty probability possibility it also said something about being polite alternative to may the presence of probability possibility can certainly be used to partially explain your word selection so say to all extents and purposes yes you might in fact you did not that you were asking me specifically the next question is why would mailing list be more appropriate we don all get mailing lists we surely don all get mailing lists about the teams about which we are most enthused so it seems to me baseball is an appropriate place to look for information about teams one doesn necessarily follow day to day this is not intended as flamage but rather is an attempted answer as you posed your post as question it bait bait bait bait bait bait bait bait bait bait bait bait bait ba anyone for lemur sooshi that sushi learn to spell you pathetic winker newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech enterpoop mit edu thunder mcrcim mcgill edu gel from gel cs mcgill ca gilles khouzam subject re equation editor message id may11 thunder mcrcim mcgill edu sender news thunder mcrcim mcgill edu nntp posting host binkley cs mcgill ca organization socs mcgill university montreal canada references may11 iitmax iit edu date tue may gmt lines in article may11 iitmax iit edu vaxtools chico acc iit edu falke bruinsma wildthing writes hiya using word for windows and am quite satisfied with it except the equation editor screws up all the time when try to insert an equation it will give me two errors fence font not found and meta font not found the real problem is that it will not display or print out the integral sign does anyone else have this problem and how do solve it using sport laptop with panasonic printer running msdos and windows thanks falke we all had that problem you need to expand the fonts manually the program decomp is on disk the equations fonts are on disk have fun gel newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu eddie mit edu news intercon com udel bogus sura net darwin sura net newsserver jvnc net yale edu nigel msen com math fu berlin de fub unlisys desert mokler from mokler desert in berlin de claudius mokler subject re true type or atm message id rcedbbqk desert in berlin de organization private site references c6ktp1 bn news cso uiuc edu mcbride ohsu edu may9 compu com date tue may gmt lines seen from typographically point of view atm using postscript fonts is better than truetype the hinting mechanism incorporated in ps is gorgeous multilingual users may see the limit of possible different characters in ps font as problematically they may have better use of the unicode features of tt fonts in windows nt ve seen lots of really beautiful and printable in small size ps fonts haven seen those as tt fonts most of them are rendering quite inaccurate in small sizes esp as screen fonts simply compare timesnewroman as ps font with the tt font the first looks better am hoping that there will be atm nt claudius mokler mail mokler desert in berlin de newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu eddie mit edu news intercon com udel gatech howland reston ans net usc sdd hp com nigel msen com math fu berlin de fub unlisys desert mokler from mokler desert in berlin de claudius mokler subject where to find diamond speedstar drivers message id ucedbssk desert in berlin de organization private site date tue may gmt lines the subject says nearly everything am talking about the accellerator card note the not about the et4000 product without please mail me the address of an appropriate ftp server thanx claudius mokler mail mokler desert in berlin de path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu eddie mit edu news intercon com udel bogus sura net darwin sura net howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu usenet from chen veda cwru edu chih keng chen newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject control systems analysis package cosy pak v0 updated for mathematica date may gmt organization case western reserve university cleveland ohio usa lines distribution world message id spjnj qm4 usenet ins cwru edu nntp posting host mishna esys cwru edu keywords control systems engineering mathematica public domain no fee release announcing cosy pak symbolic control systems analysis package version no user fee release for mathematica version or higher introduction cosy pak is set of packages and notebooks for classical control and some modern state space control analysis and design methods the notebooks in cosy pak follow typical control engineering course taught at many universities around the world for the junior senior level undergraduates there is no fee to use cosy pak but certain responsibilities are expected of the user see copyright notice in the readme file included below for starters mail fax mail post the registration form included in the readme file cosy pak is available via anonymous ftp from mishna esys cwru edu internet no in the pub directory typical ftp session in unix is given after the readme file future releases if you would like to receive updates and newer versions of cosy pak please send mail fax mail to the address below in addition your comments and suggestions are appreciated and are invaluable to us we will do our best to fix any reported bugs however we cannot fix those bugs that have not been reported to us and those we do not know of we would very much appreciate you taking few minutes to communicate to us via mail us mail telephone fax this will help us to release bug free versions in the future comments are welcome sreenath systems engineering department case school of engineering case western reserve university mail sree mishna cwru edu mail prof sreenath tel systems engg crawford hall fax case western reserve univ cleveland oh begin readme file no user fee release cosy pak symbolic control systems analysis package version for mathematica version or higher by chen sreenath systems engineering case school of engineering case western reserve university cleveland oh mail sree mishna cwru edu copyright copyright copyright by chen and sreenath case western reserve university permission to use copy modify and distribute this software and its documentation for any purpose and without fee is hereby granted provided that the above copyright notice appear in supporting documentation and the name of the case western reserve university case school of engineering not be used in advertising or publicity pertaining to distribution of the software without specific without prior permission case western reserve university makes no representations about the suitability of this software for any purpose it is provided as is with out express or implied warranty acknowledgements support from cwru information and network services dr ray neff case alumni association the lilly foundation and the systems engineering department of case western reserve university is gratefully acknowledged special thanks to brian evans of georgia tech for all the help ftp cosy pak is available by anonymous ftp from mishna esys cwru edu internet no sample ftp session is given at the end of this file changes in version update from v0 to v0 in this version we have revised cosy pak to take advantage of the more robust signal processing functions available in mathematica v2 since mathematica provides better and working laplacetransform and inverselaplacetransform functions than mathematica v2 did we adopted them this has made cosy pak smaller thus brian evans signal processing packages that supported the laplacetransform and inverselaplacetransform functions in the cosy pak v0 are no longer needed directly by cosy pak v0 for power users who use signal processing we still recommend the use of the very fine brian evans package on signal processing available at the anonymous ftp site gauss eedsp gatech edu or ip on the downside the disadvantage of this update can be that mathematica requires more runtime resources than its previous version for mathematica users we have included the laplacetransform package from mathematica in the directory for please move all files and directory under for into the calculus directory under mathematica packages directory introduction this is an unsupported release of cosy pak control systems analysis package for symbolic control systems analysis using mathematica classical control systems analysis and design methods and some modern control systems methods have been implemented in this package this package and the attendant notebooks were developed on next tm computer unix based workstation they have been used as supplementary teaching aid along with standard control engineering texts ogata phillips and harbor for undergraduate courses in control engineering taught at the systems engineering department of cwru in addition to the next they have also been tested successfully on apple macintosh computers tm and ibm pc tm running ms windows tm we would be very much interested to hear from you if you or anybody you know uses this software on platforms not mentioned above ibm users however will have to evaluate the notebooks first to visualize the graphics once installed see below for instructions this collection of mathematica packages can be loaded by any user bundled with the packages are many notebooks cosy notes which demonstrate the functionality of these packages the notebooks follow plan of many fine standard undergraduate control engineering text books listed in the references examples used in these notebooks have been collected from the various references given at the end of this file the contents of the notebooks in the cosy notes directory are given below begin cosy notes contents notebook file name introduction ma chapter introduction to control systems sections analyticity poles and zeros signals forward laplace transforms inverse laplace transforms differential equation with zero valued initial conditions differential equation with initial conditions notebook file name math models ma chapter mathematical modeling of dynamic systems sections ode to state space linearization of nonlinear system of equations state space to transfer function notebook file name transient response ma chapter transient response analysis chapter split into three sub notebooks because of file size notebook file name transient response ma sections time response analysis first order system second order system third order and higher order systems notebook file name transient response ma sections first order system step response vs time const notebook file name transient response ma sections second order system step response vs damping ratio notebook file name steady state response ma chapter steady state response sections routh stability steady state error analysis notebook file name root locus ma chapter root locus analysis notebook file name freq response ma chapter frequency response analysis sections bode plot analysis magnitude vs phase plot nichols plot polar plot nyquist plot combined example notebook file name state space ma chapter state space methods sections introduction state transition matrix controllability observability output controllability pole placement design observer design time response using state space methods end notebook contents compressed files the files that contain complete set of the cosy pak v0 packages and notebooks for mathematica are cosy pak tar compressed tar file for unix systems cosy pak sit hqx compressed sit file for macintosh systems and encoded by binhex format requires the shareware stuffit file or higher cosy pak ibm zip zip file for the ibm pc running ms dos once expanded the mathematica files can also be used on macintosh ibm pc unix systems also installation of cosy pak in unix command line type the following command zcat cosy pak tar tar xvf in macintosh open the sit hqx file using the shareware stuffit or higher in ibm command line type the following command pkunzip cosy pak ibm zip note this zip file was zipped by zip utility v2 you must use pkunzip version or higher to unzip it ibm pc may limit the directory name characters to eight in that event type pkunzip cosy pak zip you can also unzip the cosy pak ibm zip file on any unix machine if you have unzip utility on it uncompressing and untarring cosy pak tar or unzipping cosy pak ibm zip will create directory called cosy pak once the files are expanded you should see single directory cosy pak containing the following three files four sub directories and their contents sub directories in cosy pak cosypak contains control tool box packages manual cosy pak manual in ps rtf txt and wn formats cosy notes contains notebooks for contains laplace transform package from mathematica for mathematica users files in directory cosypak chap1 chap2 chap3 chap4 chap5 chap6 chap7 files in directory cosy notes introduction ma math model ma transient response ma transient response ma transient response ma steady state response ma root locus ma freq response ma state space ma files in directory for laplacetransform diracdelta sub directories in cosy pak common files in directory common support important the notebook example files ma files will be under the cosy notes directory to use the notebooks move the directory cosypak to directory that mathematica can recognize locallibrary mathematica packages on unix machine my harddisk mathematica packages on an apple macintosh winmath packages on an ibm pc at the beginning of the initialization cell of each notebook in cosy notes directory we list the example about how to make mathematica identify the directory initialization of path example for unix machine default path join path locallibrary mathematica packages example for an apple macintosh path join path my harddisk mathematica packages example for ibm pc path join path winmath packages change the pathname according to your machine by removing the mathematica comment sign and before and after path setting this command makes mathematica recognize the directory locallibrary mathematica packages on unix machine my harddisk mathematica packages on apple macintosh winmath packages on an ibm pc mathematica users we include the laplacetransform package from mathematica in the directory for please move all files and directory under for into the calculus directory under mathematica packages directory getting started after installation start mathematica and open the notebooks in the cosy notes directory all notebooks load their own packages navigate in the notebooks and enjoy ibm users however will have to evaluate the notebooks to visualize the graphics user responsibilities we request you to take few minutes and fill out the information below and mail it to us by mail fax mail this will help us to keep your abreast of the improvements and release new versions of cosy pak suggestions for improvements are welcome cut here your name organization title mail postal address comments suggestions cut here mail this information to mail fax mail internet sree mishna cwru edu mail prof sreenath tel systems engg crawford hall fax case western reserve univ cleveland oh report bugs please report bugs and leave comments to the address above any suggestion for improvements and criticism are welcome we will do our best to fix any reported bugs however we cannot fix those bugs that have not been reported to us and those we do not know of we would very much appreciate you taking few minutes to communicate to us via mail us mail telephone fax this will help us to release bug free versions in the future disclaimer and future releases this software is the property of the case western reserve university use this software at your own risk we make no express or implied warranty the packages and the notebooks can also be made to run under mathematica versions or lower with modification we do not guarantee the outcome documentation cosy pak functions are indexed in the files in the manual directory according the chapters usage is illustrated in notebooks residing in cosy notes directory if your computer does not support notebooks find macintosh computer and acquire mathreader which is public domain notebook reader mathreader will at least allow you to peruse notebooks but you will not be able to evaluate any code fragments references dorf modern control systems sixth edition addison wesley new york fortmann and hitz an introduction to linear control systems marcel dekker franklin powell and emami naeini feedback control of dynamic systems second edition addison wesley new york kuo automatic control systems sixth edition prentice hall new jersey ogata modern control engineering second edition prentice hall new jersey phillips and harbor feedback control systems second edition prentice hall new jersey end readme file typical ftp session ftp mishna esys cwru edu connected to mishna mishna ftp server version next sun nov ready name mishna esys cwru edu sree anonymous password ftp cd pub ftp binary ftp ls port command successful opening ascii mode data connection for file list cosy pak tar cosy pak ibm zip index readme places wmd cosy pak untar transfer complete bytes received in seconds kbytes ftp get cosy pak tar port command successful opening binary mode data connection for cosy pak tar bytes transfer complete local cosy pak tar remote cosy pak tar bytes received in seconds kbytes ftp quit goodbye path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu math ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu usc elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl waikato ac nz rjwjames from rjwjames waikato ac nz newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject windows video driver message id may12 waikato ac nz date may organization university of waikato hamilton new zealand lines ve got an old super vga card manufactured by sampo of taiwan and looking for windows driver for it it based on the cirrus logic cl gd510a pc chip ve contacted the suppliers here in new zealand and they say that only windows divers were ever written by the manufacturer so if there v3 driver out for this chip set like to know preferably by mail at rjwjames waikato ac nz thanks is advance ross james newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu math ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net noc near net saturn caps maine edu bates orlith abacus bates edu jburke from jburke abacus bates edu jburke subject text editor to handle large files organization bates college lewiston maine date wed may gmt message id may12 orlith bates edu sender news orlith bates edu news administrator nntp posting host abacus bates edu lines as the title says does anyone know of text editor like notepad that can handle large text files thanx for any and all help james burke by reading this you agree not to hold the writer responsible for any evil jburke abacus bates edu happening that may befall you at any time xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet microsoft hexnut jenk from jenk microsoft com jen kilmer subject re re challenge to microsoft supporters message id may12 microsoft com date may gmt organization microsoft corporation references c6rq6b f3v uceng uc edu may10 microsoft com slalp ls2 tamsun tamu edu distribution usa lines in article slalp ls2 tamsun tamu edu jeffw cs tamu edu jeffrey waller writes in article may10 microsoft com jenk microsoft com jen kilmer writes in article c6rq6b f3v uceng uc edu bferrell ant occ uc edu brett ferrell writes in article may07 microsoft com cliffga microsoft com clifford garrett writes guess thats why there are so many new dos and os applications coming and hardly any windows apps coming out irony yep the os apps are comming the os apps are comming yet another micro minion hoping that if he says something long enough hey remember the good old days running os alpha with brief excel word and couple internal apps product support database client os based email front end life was good but it was also impractical cause the masses were using windows and my job was to help the masses apparently you prefer os to windows or at least did to windows yes by you last comment do you mean that your knowledge of os is dated it must be or argue it definitely dated used os alpha when msft was developing it suspect that the masses were using windows because they couldn afford to use os can you say as much for nt preferred windows because it was more stable faster than but could still run more apps than os again made this choice before was released but getting back to the original question do you have any data on the relative avaliablity or windows applications versus os applications or any evidence that stated support will be dropped by any of the above no ve seen no such data grow up other companies are supporting os make points please if you see life in terms of debating points think you need to grow up ah yes remember the days when we kids would engage in orderly debate but our parents would usually find out and force us to act in the more mature manner of heaping invective and casting rocks and dirt clods hee hee good one it doesn help microsoft to have employees assume you are due to the org may be wrong saying such trivial things on the net so microsoft employs over employees walking into this place is not like walking into the commercial there are individuals here you think they ll all talk the same way say the same thing and help microsoft all the time if so why it appears to me that he is voicing his frustration to an attitude he has encountered before and one that ve encountered as well on the other hand have had no such experience other than from reading this thread you at microsoft are in unique position to present facts hmm are you sure speaking from my own experience as an os user certainly people in say the nt marketing group would be in unique position to present the results of say research on upcoming nt and os apps vs windows and ms dos apps part of my point was that just cause one works at microsoft does not mean one has access to such data if it exists but prefer to make baseless claims or attack to poster must make the same conclusion as he will confess to at times attacking the poster usenet accounts are not restricted to the marketroids they re open to any fulltimer and are primarily for recreational purposes yeah some of us are likely to answer question or hop into debate or make stupid comments you know like human beings sorry this newsgroup is only for opressed hackers and stranded extraterrestrials not humans how about alt microsoft humans you seem to discount others anyway again my point was that not all microsofties are here to sell readers on our products which would conflict with the no ads philosophy of usenet nor do we necessarily have access to info that others have also get tired of people assuming that microsofties are like members of the borg jen include stdisclaimer jenk microsoft com msdos testing xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet microsoft wingnut richs from richs microsoft com rick schaut subject re challenge to microsoft supporters message id may11 microsoft com date may gmt organization microsoft corporation references may6 infodev cam ac uk may07 microsoft com may8 infodev cam ac uk reply to richs microsoft com rick schaut distribution usa lines in article may8 infodev cam ac uk tjrc1 cus cam ac uk cutts writes even so my point still stands to an extent that limits appear all over the place where they really are not necessary such as the edit control limit while the limit may not be necessary limitation they probably fall within the category of reasonable limitations if you find yourself trying to allocate an edit control for more than of text it probably time take good look at your program design why is there such small limit to the number of global memory handles allowed in what way is small number it seems to me that you hit the wall in many other ways before you hit the systemwide limit on global handles unless of course you re abusing globalalloc and please don try to tell me that it impossible to abuse the resources available under other operating systems all systems have limits the question is whether or not the limits are reasonable so far you haven offered single argument which suggests that windows limits are any less reasonable than limits in other systems rick schaut uucp uunet uw beaver microsoft richs microsoft doesn speak for me and don speak for microsoft newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu math ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net sol ctr columbia edu news unomaha edu cwis unomaha edu hbae from hbae cwis unomaha edu hansang bae subject using mouse in dos window message id may12 news unomaha edu sender news news unomaha edu uno network news server organization university of nebraska at omaha date wed may gmt lines is there way to use the mouse when running dos app windowed in win when you window dos apps in enhanced mode can see where the mouse cursor was but it doesn work any help would be greatly appreciated thank you hansang bae hbae cwis unomaha edu xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp binaries ibm pc wanted comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com darwin sura net newsserver jvnc net netnews upenn edu netnews cc lehigh edu aragorn flash from flash aragorn csee lehigh edu stephen corbesero newsgroups comp binaries ibm pc wanted comp os ms windows misc subject driver for chips technologies video board needed message id flash aragorn date may gmt sender usenet lehigh edu organization lehigh university lines nntp posting host aragorn csee lehigh edu would like to find windows driver for video board that is based on the chips technologies chipset the actual board is scorpion framegrabber made by univision it is based on the chipset but only barely supports the graphics mode am hoping that any driver could be used in the x480x256 mode thanks stephen corbesero systems manager and adjucnt lecturer memorial drive west corbesero eecs lehigh edu eecs dept lehigh university sgc0 lehigh edu bethlehem pa voice fax newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net sol ctr columbia edu rhea ctr columbia edu yjj from yjj rhea ctr columbia edu yuan jiang subject any utility that let you remap the keyboard under ms win message id may12 sol ctr columbia edu sender nobody ctr columbia edu organization columbia university center for telecommunications research date wed may gmt posted from rhea ctr columbia edu nntp posting host sol ctr columbia edu lines any utility that let you remap the keyboard under ms win thanks for any pointer xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu eddie mit edu news intercon com udel darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com network ucsd edu dialin1 extern ucsd edu mfischer from mfischer ucsd edu mike fischer newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc subject re re re challenge to microsoft supporters date wed may gmt organization university of california san diego lines distribution world message id mfischer ucsd edu references twalls tm ncc1701d demon co uk c6kdq4 hb news udel edu twalls ut ncc1701d demon co uk may93 vax clarku edu twalls vo ncc1701d demon co uk nntp posting host dialin1 extern ucsd edu in article twalls vo ncc1701d demon co uk twalls ncc1701d demon co uk tim walls writes from twalls ncc1701d demon co uk tim walls subject re re re challenge to microsoft supporters date mon may in article may93 vax clarku edu rmohns vax clarku edu writes but don want to have to run blasted windows every time want to delete tree it is absolutely ludicrous to load hog like that just to delete some files it would be like requiring crane to change the tyre on car you don and never had to that what enhanced shells are for remember dos and ndos mean come on you can expect dos to cover everything from r1 microsoft has other projects to work on they want you to move to windows then later to win32 and eventually to cairo this way they give you reason to by deliberately crippling the product surely no oh hold on guess you re right that certainly stinks of microsoft marketing techniques don think they deliberately crippled the project on the other hand it is technical achievement for what it does considering that it rides on top of dos mean you get gui with reasonable speed on pc with xwindows running on top of linux or something similar you re still gonna need fast processor re dos death well amen to that but wish it were damn sight deader for dead product its used an awful lot and suspect its going to carry on twitching for long while yet which isn doing anyone any good except for the people who use dos programs which means about or more of the business world mike xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu math ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu msuinfo msuinfo sundaram from sundaram egr msu edu divya sundaram newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc subject re challenge to microsoft supporters date may gmt organization michigan state university lines distribution usa message id sundaram msuinfo references c6rq6b f3v uceng uc edu may10 microsoft com slalp ls2 tamsun tamu edu may12 microsoft com nntp posting host eecae ee msu edu jenk microsoft com jen kilmer writes much bs deleted for brevity again my point was that not all microsofties are here to sell readers on our products which would conflict with the no ads philosophy of usenet nor do we necessarily have access to info that others have it certainly smacks of that remember the poll that you quoted saying that you had seen of users being satisfied with dos care to recall how unbiased the sample set was that post sure looked like fud and coming from microsoftie well it sure seemed like something was not on level advocacy is good but spreading fud to advocate your favorite os is very unethical especially when you have vested interest in the success of that os also get tired of people assuming that microsofties are like members of the borg that is because their actions seem to invite this opinion never seen more defensive people in my life moreover many of their posts seem to encourage this too imho seriously speaking it is shame that ms techie employees get the heat for ms actions most of which are perpetrated by the management and marketing am sure that they are very talented etc have not doubts about their abilities just about the ethics of their marketing practices divya divya live long and then die slow and horrible death what confucius wanted to say xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu eddie mit edu news intercon com udel bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu csus edu netcom com timbol from timbol netcom com mike timbol subject re re challenge to microsoft supporters message id timbolc6wh1d hz netcom com organization netcom online communication services guest references may07 microsoft com may10 microsoft com c6vd0q e2s uceng uc edu distribution usa date wed may gmt lines in article c6vd0q e2s uceng uc edu bferrell moth occ uc edu brett ferrell writes in article may10 microsoft com jimfr microsoft com jim francis writes know for fact that the only reason many companies wrote os apps was because ibm paid them for it write an app for the ti if ti paid me in advance to do it ibm can only pay so many people for so many apps once that stops so does the development software companies don stay in business writing apps that won generate revenue the fact that ibm was paying them for it allowed them to do it and stay in business how many apps are selling ask wordperfect borland lotus how much revenue they are getting from sales and if they plan on writing more apps you may be suprised by the answer won would get into microsoft practices but the thread would go on for every you do have an interesting point that won dispute now but pray tell if you know for fact anything why don you provided some insight into your source do you think that will accept it for fact maybe would if you gave your word even if he says he knows for fact what more do you have to gain if he gives his word do you think he lying right now but mon it would appear that you are employed by the competition you should expect to asked about your sources and just give them up front or not make the claim brett sherron ferrell email bferrell uceng uc edu anyway how about this give you my word without naming sources that ibm paid companies to write applications for os satisfied mike newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu caen batcomputer munnari oz au metro seagoon newcastle edu au pluto mazz from mazz pluto richard mazzaferri subject problem wallpaper display corrupt for bitmaps message id mazz pluto keywords problem wallpaper bitmap win3 sender news seagoon newcastle edu au organization uni of newcastle australia date wed may gmt lines have problem with the wallpaper on my desktop in x768x256 mode for bitmap files bigger than about slightly less sometimes depending on the exact dimensions the wallpaper display is badly corrupted the rest of the desktop is fine for wallpaper bitmaps smaller than this have no problem have friend who has an bitmap which he has no problems with so it is possible it is also possible to display these bitmaps using cshow in x768x256 mode with no problem so the video card is not at fault how can remedy this my system dx40 mb ram dos windows oak mb video card x768x256 mode using supplied drivers windows has permanent kb swap file please reply via mail and use the address in my sig as our post software always seems to mangle the address in the header thanks mazz richard mazzaferri ph student uni of newcastle ph mazz faceng newcastle edu au australia xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu eddie mit edu news intercon com udel darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu msuinfo msuinfo sundaram from sundaram egr msu edu divya sundaram newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc subject re challenge to microsoft supporters date may gmt organization michigan state university lines distribution usa message id sundaram msuinfo references may07 microsoft com may10 microsoft com c6vd0q e2s uceng uc edu timbolc6wh1d hz netcom com nntp posting host eecae ee msu edu much munching and editing to get to the point brett sherron ferrell writes you do have an interesting point that won dispute now but pray tell if you know for fact anything why don you provided some insight into your source do you think that will accept it for fact maybe would if you gave your word even mike timbol responds if he says he knows for fact what more do you have to gain if he gives his word do you think he lying right now while do not think he is lying also feel hesitant to take anybody on their word unless they can attribute source for thier claims with all the fud and misinformations and misconceptions and outright lies flying around the advocacy newsgroups do not trust any unsubstantiated rumor or claim especially from any employees of ibm or microsoft or anyone who seems to have vested interest divya divya live long and then die slow and horrible death what confucius wanted to say newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net torn nott bnrgate bnr co uk uknet mcsun sun4nl star cs vu nl martijn from martijn cs vu nl lemmens ml subject workgroups for windows message id c6wjjc bba cs vu nl sender news cs vu nl organization fac wiskunde informatica vu amsterdam date wed may gmt lines hello want little network for users all users want to run windows the most important things want for the network are file sharing mail utility two printers on one of the computers and fax modem card on one of the computers we all want to use each others harddisk my idea was to buy three computers one dx and two dx all three have mb local harddisk the also has very large harddisk all three also have network card the is connected to the printers and contains the fax modem card and last but not least workgroups for windows my questions is this possible what exactly are the possibilities and advantages of workgroups for windows will all the computers be fast enough behind all three someone is working thanks martijn path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu eddie mit edu news mtholyoke edu nic umass edu noc near net howland reston ans net agate ucbvax mtxinu sybase eastwood from eastwood sybase com david eastwood newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject wrk installation oddity message id c6vbwl n51 sybase com date may gmt sender usenet sybase com distribution usa organization sybase inc lines last night tried to reinstall the utilities from the windows resource kit disk the setup program appeared to run perfectly normally but when it had finished there was no program group created now know ve done this before successfully and creating group myself didn exactly tax me but curious as to what might be going on can only assume that something left over from the last time had it installed is getting in the way but can figure out what any clues anyone david eastwood sybase inc emeryville ca eastwood sybase com xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu eddie mit edu news mtholyoke edu nic umass edu noc near net howland reston ans net agate ames biersch mkr from mkr comtech com mark reha subject bit rgb message id may11 comtech com organization comtech labs inc palo alto references c6rq6b f3v uceng uc edu may199309423368 cccs umn edu c6tmvm gxh uceng uc edu distribution usa date tue may gmt lines am working with bit rgb bmp files and need to comvert these to and bit images how do convert bit images to and bit rgb images thanks newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu eddie mit edu news intercon com udel gatech howland reston ans net noc near net uunet newsflash concordia ca vax2 concordia ca grzheng from grzheng vax2 concordia ca zheng guo rong subject how can change the font and size for the system message id may199307415799 vax2 concordia ca news software vax vms vnews sender usenet newsflash concordia ca usenet news system nntp posting host vax2 concordia ca organization concordia university date wed may gmt lines hi on the x768x256 mode the font sizes of window menu help window are very small can change the font and font size for these windows my computer is dx the video card is ati d24 could some experts please email the answer to grzheng vax2 concondia ca thanks in advance guo rong zhehg concordia univ montreal canada newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet munnari oz au hp9000 csc cuhk hk hkuxb hku hk hkuxa hku hk h8714031 from h8714031 hkuxa hku hk mok kam wah subject driver for s3801 mb card message id c6wo6h hkuxb hku hk sender usenet hkuxb hku hk usenet news system nntp posting host hkuxa hku hk organization the university of hong kong newsreader tin version pl6 date wed may gmt lines dear netters my friend have brought s3801 card with mb ram is there any new driver for the card available on ftp cites what is the newest version she is very interest in have driver for x768 with hicolor and x600 true color no such driver come with the card mok mok mail h8714031 hkuxa hku hk dept of chem university of hong kong xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os os2 networking comp os ms windows misc newsgroups comp os os2 networking comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu eddie mit edu news intercon com udel gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu utnut torn watserv2 uwaterloo ca watserv1 metrics com tomh from tomh metrics com tom haapanen subject can os talk to windows for workgroups organization software metrics inc date wed may gmt message id may12 metrics com lines like to get system running os ga talking to network of pcs running windows for workgroups acting as server would be wonderful but client access would be enough can run wfw net utilities in dos box or is there way to actually get os to talk to wfw will os lanman clients talk to wfw dazed and confused tom haapanen tomh metrics com software metrics inc waterloo ont stick your index fingers into both corners of your mouth now pull up that how the corrado makes you feel car january xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os os2 networking comp os ms windows misc newsgroups comp os os2 networking comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu utnut torn watserv2 uwaterloo ca watserv1 metrics com tomh from tomh metrics com tom haapanen subject re can os talk to windows for workgroups organization software metrics inc date wed may gmt message id may12 metrics com references may12 metrics com lines tomh metrics com tom haapanen writes can run wfw net utilities in dos box or is there way to actually get os to talk to wfw will os lanman clients talk to wfw following up to my own article found that several people say that lan server clients can talk to wfw is this then also true for lan manager don lan server and lan manager share common roots dazed and confused somewhat less so now tom haapanen tomh metrics com software metrics inc waterloo ont stick your index fingers into both corners of your mouth now pull up that how the corrado makes you feel car january path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu cleveland freenet edu dh782 from dh782 cleveland freenet edu mike krsek newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject ms mouse newer as date may gmt organization case western reserve university cleveland oh usa lines message id sr4di de4 usenet ins cwru edu reply to krsek2 jonas zcu cz nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu hello need microsoft mouse driver but newer as for going in dos window under ms windows but it is must be freeware have version tx mike path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc rutgers dmdscs viamar kmembry from kmembry viamar uucp kirk membry newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject re good autoexec bat and config sys for windows message id uhf8ratjbh107h viamar uucp date may gmt references c6s2ux n0f acsu buffalo edu br7ralebh107h viamar uucp may9 datamark co nz reply to rutgers viamar kmembry organization private system lines in may9 datamark co nz thomas datamark co nz thomas beagle writes there is no need to load emm386 qemm or anything else on many windows pcs it only useful if you are still stuck with running msdos based applications that need lots of low memory free otherwise you just need to load himem sys and let windows go straight to the extended memory that what thought that why never used emm386 exe before kirk membry our age is the age of industry rutgers viamar kmembry alexander rodchenko xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl netcomsv netcom com gurgle from gurgle netcom com pete gontier subject re challenge to microsoft supporters message id gurglec6x8jc ll2 netcom com organization cellular references may10 microsoft com c6vd0q e2s uceng uc edu timbolc6wh1d hz netcom com may12 infodev cam ac uk c6wzv1 cbc news rich bnr ca distribution usa date wed may gmt lines bjgrier bnr ca brian grier writes this has gone on too long people get life if you haven converted anyone to your way of thinking yet you probably will not convert anyone just let this subject die quiet though painfull death if this keeps up ll start believing the self righteousness should be capital offense you ll have to kill off half the net maybe that isn such bad idea pete gontier ec technology gurgle netcom com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu pitt edu gatech howland reston ans net sol ctr columbia edu news kei com enterpoop mit edu eru mt luth se lunic my omega d89 mad from d89 mad ludd luth se mattias slund newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject remapping in procomm windows message id may12 ludd luth se date may gmt organization lulea university computer society ludd lines one can only remap special command keys in procomm it seems would like to remap other keys too especially altgr and such combinations anybody know plain or dirty way to do this of cause most people settle for remapping function keys but don see why there should be limitation yours mattias xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os ms windows misc comp os ms windows programmer misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu pitt edu uunet fedunix paller from paller fedunix org alan paller newsgroups comp os ms windows misc comp os ms windows programmer misc subject teacher for windows nt message id uul1 fedunix org date may gmt organization fedunix open systems conference board washington lines we are searching for one or two instructors for tutorials on advanced windows programming under nt if anyone has attended course that was very good we would really appreciate recommendations please email me directly at paller fedunix org don get to see these newsgroups often enough thanks in advance for any help alan paller tutorials director path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu pitt edu gatech usenet ins cwru edu agate ames news hawaii edu uluhe dmcgee from dmcgee uluhe soest hawaii edu don mcgee newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject re where to find diamond speedstar drivers message id c6xb9l m06 news hawaii edu date may gmt references ucedbssk desert in berlin de sender news news hawaii edu organization school of ocean and earth science and technology lines cica indiana edu pc drivers the current version is newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu usenet ins cwru edu howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu caen batcomputer ghost dsi unimi it cdc486 cdc polimi it tbra380 from tbra380 cdc835 cdc polimi it the musician subject re is there version of unix vi editor for windoews organization politecnico di milano date wed may gmt message id tbra380 cdc835 references se5hhinn2o2 fstgds15 tu graz ac at c6oipe hx cbnewsm cb att com c6u3t5 qb mccc edu sender netnews cdc486 cdc polimi it netnews lines pete holsberg pjh mccc edu wrote subject line says it all looked and looked but came up empty handed are you pervert you are pervert ok vi is not cua but it has powerful set of commands one for all it has separate clipboard and not only one ofor all kind of data like windows does the only problem is to know the commands the keyboard shortcut am quite fast with the pc keyboard and usually use all fingers to digit so when use editor do not want to leave the keyboard and use the mouse every time need special function on the menu or to use the arrow keys that are away from the usual position of my hands on the keyboard in my situation vi is very powerful and searching to vi editor for windows bye sorry for the bad english newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech concert sas mozart unx sas com sasswb from sasswb unx sas com scott bass subject re creating batch file from windows nt sender news unx sas com noter of newsworthy events message id sasswb k2 date wed may gmt references sasswb k2 nntp posting host k2 unx sas com organization sas institute inc lines in sasswb k2 sasswb unx sas com scott bass writes for windows nt is there an alternative to the archane fairly useless dos batch programming language for os ibm introduced the rexx language as an alternative to bat surely windows nt should do the same thing right in lieu of the above is there any way to escape the cr lf in bat file and continue single command across multiple lines have an application which exits to the system and submits batch file the batch file is created on the fly from site specific code stored within the application as currently designed the line length for the stored code and the output file bat file is characters which is not enough for all the options that must be specified on particular command it would help tremendously if didn have to redesign my code to kludge around the lack of true batch shell programming language rest deleted as followup to my post let me add that not really windows or windows nt user so please excuse my ignorance however developer at sas institute and one component of the application that support is the ability to submit sas batch job from within an interactive sas session the user site can enter their site specific batch profile into dataset within our product specifying the pathname to the sas executable specifying site specific sas options etc at run time certain variables are resolved and the resolved file is written to an external ascii file then exit to the operating system and run the job asynchronously returning to the interactive session as soon as the job is submitted the batch job then runs concurrently with the interactive session as currently designed the internal dataset has record length of characters but to run the batch job the command to reinvoke sas in batch mode requires more than characters up til nt this has not been problem since every job control shell language up til nt eg mvs cms vms unix os2 had way to escape the cr lf and enter single command across multiple lines os via their rexx language which is standard with os the gist of all this is since this application is for end users not within my company have to try to develop this process using native nt since my first posting ve learned that there are several third party companies that provide alternative script languages for windows windows nt and sure company that licenses our product would use that alternative script language if they had it but can develop under the assumption that they have anything other than what comes with nt saw another post on this list the subject was something like is vi available for windows in which someone said that vi make awk and ksh was available with microsoft toolkit what is that product is it separate product or part of windows ksh would do what need if could count on it at all nt sites one last question ve heard that nt has remote processing capabilities could shove this batch job off to server machine and have it run there if these are native nt commands rather than network specific commands this would also help me improve this process if you can comment on these commands would appreciate it thanks again for the help scott bass sas institute inc integrated systems a216 x6975 sas campus drive cary nc sasswb k2 unx sas com x6975 xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os ms windows misc comp os ms windows programmer misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com darwin sura net news feed peachnet edu gatech usenet rpi edu usenet rpi edu wiseb from wiseb colossus cs rpi edu bowden wise newsgroups comp os ms windows misc comp os ms windows programmer misc subject deriving from class object with owl date may gmt organization rensselaer polytechnic institute computer science troy ny lines distribution comp message id srgne m4i usenet rpi edu nntp posting host colossus cs rpi edu am trying to define my own class derived from the object class so that may insert them into hashtable class provided by the container class library have defined all of the pure virtual functions of object but still get an error when attempt to allocate hashentry object cannot create instance of abstract class hashentry has anyone derived from class object before what have left out here are the virtual functions that defined from object virtual classtype isa const return hashentryclass virtual pchar nameof const return hashentry virtual hashvaluetype hashvalue const return hashvalue hwindow note hwindow is defined in hashentry virtual int isequal const object far obj const return this hashentry obj virtual void printon rostream os const os hwindow is void far hwindow bowden wise computer science dept rensselaer polytechnic inst troy ny internet wiseb cs rpi edu xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os ms windows misc comp os ms windows setup path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl netcomsv netcom com netcomsv spud hyperion com spud hyperion com not for mail from leopard spud hyperion com steeve vawter newsgroups comp os ms windows misc comp os ms windows setup subject questions about dos external join command date may organization hyperion mountain view ca usa lines distribution na message id srg8c i54 spud hyperion com nntp posting host spud hyperion com summary looking for information good or bad keywords pros cons bugs problems am setting up my dos unix box on ide and scsi drive and was wondering about the use of the ms dos join command like the way it sets things up since won have to stick with the crap that dos enforces like how it would mimic mount points of unix filesystems have heard that there were problems with using it or at least under older versions of dos please tell leopard hyperion com don work for hyperion just live here steeven vawter telephone svawter raynet com work unix sys admin xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os ms windows misc comp os ms windows programmer misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net news feed peachnet edu gatech usenet rpi edu usenet rpi edu wiseb from wiseb colossus cs rpi edu bowden wise newsgroups comp os ms windows misc comp os ms windows programmer misc subject re deriving from class object with owl date may gmt organization rensselaer polytechnic institute computer science troy ny lines distribution comp message id srknb s0s usenet rpi edu references srgne m4i usenet rpi edu nntp posting host colossus cs rpi edu in reply to wiseb colossus cs rpi edu message of may gmt solved my problem still do not understand why it happens ths way perhaps some of you gurus can explain this to all of us for some reason when define the following functins in the class definition in the file the compiler thinks some pure virtual functions are not defined when placed these two in separate source file and compiled them the problem went away any ideas what happen are the functions that are defined in the class construct all inline is this the problem virtual int isequal const object far obj const return this hashentry obj virtual void printon rostream os const os hwindow is void far hwindow bowden wise computer science dept rensselaer polytechnic inst troy ny internet wiseb cs rpi edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu not for mail from compuserve com darla newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject deltapoints animated desktop date may organization utexas mail to news gateway lines sender daemon cs utexas edu message id dhr77 compuserve com nntp posting host cs utexas edu hiyas all upon getting animated desktop for windows as gift from my boyfriend couldn wait to install it had gotten an advertisement for it and put it aside with my list of wants after installing the software it didn load no part of the software would load even though the install went seemingly well called deltapoint with the problem and after asking me twenty million different questions about my system concluded that had one of the systems that the software was incompatible with of course they re willing to give me my back what waste of time and energy the folks on their support line although nice are extremely ignorant regarding the workings of windows after my experience with the installation of the sb learned some of the function of windows dll files before sending back desktop animator decided to do some fooling around with the different versions of dll files had had versions of cpalette dll one dated and the other dated and smaller the smaller version was the one supplied with desktop animator moved the bigger older version of cpalette dll to directory outside my path for some reason had the older cpalette dll in my windows directory and the newer cpallette in my windows system directory when did this the animator editor loaded and so did other of the applications in the package the main application still didn load does anyone have any ideas as to why this would occur or any further suggestions for trouble shooting darla portal darla shell portal com darla cup portal com aol kuby2u aol com darlaiam aol com wix darla genie kuby jj jj path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu not for mail from varkki ux1 cso uiuc edu varkki george newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject strange messages when starting windows date may organization university of illinois at urbana champaign lines distribution usa message id srp2m ux1 cso uiuc edu nntp posting host ux1 cso uiuc edu on recently acquired gateway machine when starting windows three copyright statements flash on the screen right after the ms logo disappears and before programmanager takes over this does not happen on any other of our machines and am wondering whether this is feature or whether this is related to several problems we are having with the machine the system is gateway dx machine the messages that appear are copyright western digital corporation all rights reserved copyright congruent corporation all rights reserved copyright microsoft corporation all rights reserved the autoexec bat file looks like this echo off prompt set mouse msmouse msmouse mouse path dos windows wp51 apps system winapps public set temp windows temp lh wd8003e x62 x280 xd000 lh winpkt x60 x62 lh ipx lh netx login login win the config sys file looks like this device windows himem sys dos high umb device windows emm386 exe noems d000 d1ff stacks files buffers shell dos command com does anyone know what is going on any help would be much appreciated department of urban and regional planning mail varkki uiuc edu university of illinois at urbana champaign tel xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet news claremont edu jarthur claremont edu tlilley from tlilley jarthur claremont edu ted subject re re challenge to microsoft supporters message id c6xmkx news claremont edu sender news news claremont edu the news system organization harvey mudd college claremont ca references may10 microsoft com c6vd0q e2s uceng uc edu timbolc6wh1d hz netcom com distribution usa date wed may gmt lines in article timbolc6wh1d hz netcom com timbol netcom com mike timbol writes anyway how about this give you my word without naming sources that ibm paid companies to write applications for os satisfied mike doesn ms do the same subsidize app development seem to remember someone at rpi who received an entire expensive to run nt machine to develop for nt free and that just the small fry ted path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu malgudi oar net news ysu edu yfn ysu edu ad960 from ad960 yfn ysu edu thomas smith newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject re hp deskjet date may gmt organization youngstown state youngstown free net lines message id srplj q0l news ysu edu nntp posting host yfn ysu edu try using laser printer copier paper it works quite well and is cheaper than hpspecial paper thomas smith ii youngstown state university chemistry dept ad960 yfn ysu edu xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net uunet microsoft hexnut kenk from kenk microsoft com ken kiesow subject re challenge to microsoft supporters message id may12 microsoft com date may gmt organization microsoft corp references sundaram msuinfo c6rq6b f3v uceng uc edu may10 microsoft com slalp ls2 tamsun tamu edu may12 microsoft com distribution usa lines in article sundaram msuinfo sundaram egr msu edu wrote jenk microsoft com jen kilmer writes much bs deleted for brevity again my point was that not all microsofties are here to sell readers on our products which would conflict with the no ads philosophy of usenet nor do we necessarily have access to info that others have it certainly smacks of that remember the poll that you quoted saying that you had seen of users being satisfied with dos care to recall how unbiased the sample set was that post sure looked like fud and coming from microsoftie well it sure seemed like something was not on level it came from reseller survey advocacy is good but spreading fud to advocate your favorite os is very unethical especially when you have vested interest in the success of that os don recall any fud here maybe an example also get tired of people assuming that microsofties are like members of the borg that is because their actions seem to invite this opinion never seen more defensive people in my life moreover many of their posts seem to encourage this too imho for the most part this newsgroup is attack oriented microsoft has been attacked on anything ranging from the quality of our products the intelligence of our people the integrity of our business etc anyone would get defensive when being baselessly attacked we are human beings as well you should expect response when claim that an employee might feel is unwarranted is leveled seriously speaking it is shame that ms techie employees get the heat for ms actions most of which are perpetrated by the management and marketing am sure that they are very talented etc have not doubts about their abilities just about the ethics of their marketing practices divya divya live long and then die slow and horrible death what confucius wanted to say path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu math ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net darwin sura net news feed peachnet edu gatech usenet rpi edu usenet rpi edu wiseb from wiseb colossus cs rpi edu bowden wise newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject displaying stream output in window date may gmt organization rensselaer polytechnic institute computer science troy ny lines distribution comp message id srptf i7 usenet rpi edu nntp posting host colossus cs rpi edu am using owl and want to display the output from stream in popup window is there way to perhaps redirect cout to window or alternatively set up separate stream that supports output and be able to display the stream output in an tedit control anyone ever done something like this bowden wise computer science dept rensselaer polytechnic inst troy ny internet wiseb cs rpi edu xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen zaphod mps ohio state edu usc elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl netcomsv netcom com timbol from timbol netcom com mike timbol subject re re challenge to microsoft supporters message id timbolc6y7wv ets netcom com organization netcom online communication services guest references c6wxh0 hw8 uceng uc edu timbolc6y1b4 n0 netcom com c6y2mz dnp news claremont edu distribution usa date thu may gmt lines in article c6y2mz dnp news claremont edu tlilley jarthur claremont edu ted writes in article timbolc6y1b4 n0 netcom com timbol netcom com mike timbol writes anyway how about this give you my word without naming sources that ibm paid companies to write applications for os satisfied not really query what do you mean by paid are you implying that helped to offset development costs or paid for the entire cost of producing the product mean they paid the companies that developed the applications we ll give you million dollars if you port application to os suppose the company in question could use the million dollars for whatever they want would you like to post figures for ms as well suppose ted no rather not first of all don have exact figures and don want to disclose how know this however will say that jim francis from microsoft just posted figure of million payment from ibm to borland and that somewhere in the range that ve heard mike xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen uunet microsoft hexnut jenk from jenk microsoft com jen kilmer subject re challenge to microsoft supporters message id may13 microsoft com date may gmt organization microsoft corporation references slalp ls2 tamsun tamu edu may12 microsoft com sundaram msuinfo distribution usa lines in article sundaram msuinfo sundaram egr msu edu divya sundaram writes jenk microsoft com jen kilmer writes much bs deleted for brevity again my point was that not all microsofties are here to sell readers on our products which would conflict with the no ads philosophy of usenet nor do we necessarily have access to info that others have it certainly smacks of that remember the poll that you quoted saying that you had seen of users being satisfied with dos it was and actually another msdos team member posted it note that people not on the msdos team would not necessarily know about that or care to recall how unbiased the sample set was when heard those numbers wondered how they got them having worked in product support and knowing that the typical support caller has very little positive to say about the product figured it wasn from there so wandered over to the marketing folks and asked and was told it was from survey of registered users and posted that on the net when people asked where the figure came from that post sure looked like fud and coming from microsoftie well it sure seemed like something was not on level hmm figured if chuck posted the numbers why not include where they came from also find it interesting that postitive info is fear uncertainty doubt advocacy is good but spreading fud to advocate your favorite os is very unethical especially when you have vested interest in the success of that os think you ve got me confused with someone else don pretend that msdos provides what all people need or that other oses including unix os don provide useful and or necessary features also don push people to use msdos even posted in comp os msdos misc that suggest waiting before installing new os esp if you have trouble support is always overloaded during release unless the sales are total bomb also get tired of people assuming that microsofties are like members of the borg that is because their actions seem to invite this opinion never seen more defensive people in my life ain saying some of us don get defensive sometimes do you really think msdos gets any more respect within microsoft than outside it just mean we all aren cut out of the same dough with the same cookie cutter we don all think alike yeah chuckst and have some inside info on msdos doesn mean that everyone else does seriously speaking it is shame that ms techie employees get the heat for ms actions most of which are perpetrated by the management and marketing am sure that they are very talented etc have not doubts about their abilities just about the ethics of their marketing practices jen include stdisclaimer jenk microsoft com msdos testing xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen uunet microsoft hexnut jenk from jenk microsoft com jen kilmer subject re challenge to microsoft supporters message id may13 microsoft com date may gmt organization microsoft corporation references slalp ls2 tamsun tamu edu may12 microsoft com may12 microsoft com distribution usa lines in article may12 microsoft com kenk microsoft com ken kiesow writes in article sundaram msuinfo sundaram egr msu edu wrote it certainly smacks of that remember the poll that you quoted saying that you had seen of users being satisfied with dos care to recall how unbiased the sample set was that post sure looked like fud and coming from microsoftie well it sure seemed like something was not on level it came from reseller survey had posted that it came from survey of registered users double checked with friendly neighborhood marketing type and found there were actually two surveys one of randomly selected resellers one of randomly selected users from the upgrade registered user database both surveys showed positive rating jen include stdisclaimer jenk microsoft com msdos testing path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech usenet ins cwru edu cleveland freenet edu cf123 from cf123 cleveland freenet edu christopher leigh putnam newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject hot key for screen saver date may gmt organization case western reserve university cleveland oh usa lines message id ssq6t qc usenet ins cwru edu reply to cf123 cleveland freenet edu christopher leigh putnam nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu is there hot key for the windows screen saver utility if not is there an easy way to create one the reason that need one is that my dad company is anal retentive about leaving computer while the information can be accessed so the employees are not allowed to walk away from the computer until the screen saver kicks in as if that is terribly secure also the system manager won let any software be added so another program such as lock32 zip from cica or different screen saver is out thanks for any and all help chris putnam still blue devils lover at heart euphonium baritone star in xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net black clarku edu vax clarku edu rmohns from rmohns vax clarku edu subject re challenge to microsoft supporters message id may93 vax clarku edu sender news black clarku edu usenet news system organization clark university references slalp ls2 tamsun tamu edu may12 microsoft com may12 microsoft com may13 microsoft com date may gmt lines in previous article jenk microsoft com jen kilmer wrote had posted that it came from survey of registered users double checked with friendly neighborhood marketing type and found there were actually two surveys one of randomly selected resellers one of randomly selected users from the upgrade registered user database both surveys showed positive rating jen include stdisclaimer jenk microsoft com msdos testing which translates to not satisfied don think it the awkward recursive deletion that bugging people it certainly isn the nice windows interfaces for new dos accessories cpav defrager undelete as far as ve noticed it doublespace crashes frankly the fairly high rates of doublespace crashes ve heard of surprises me figured that since the os is presumably aware of doublespace it is less likely to crash unlike stacker which fools the os but do is gullible anyway dos is aware of doublespace isn it anyway good job on dos and dos is good for new users just beware the doublespace rob rmohns vax clarku edu rob mohns annoy rush limbaugh think for yourself path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu menudo uh edu jpunix mwk usenet newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject help message id aa01921 fidonet org from doelle p26 f3333 n106 z1 fidonet org doelle date tue may sender usenet fidonet org lines hello all it is my understanding that all true type fonts in windows are loaded in prior to starting windows this makes getting into windows quite slow if you have hundreds of them as do first off am correct in this thinking secondly if that is the case can you get windows to ignore them on boot and maybe make something like pif file to load them only when you enter the applications that need fonts any ideas chris origin chris doelle f3333 n106 z1 fidonet org xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net gatech concert samba usenet from dil admin mhs unc edu dave laudicina subject re challenge to microsoft supporters message id may13 samba oit unc edu sender usenet samba oit unc edu nntp posting host dil adp unc edu organization unc office of information technology date thu may gmt lines for the most part this newsgroup is attack oriented microsoft has been attacked on anything ranging from the quality of our products the intelligence of our people the integrity of our business etc anyone would get defensive when being baselessly attacked we are human beings as well you should expect response when claim that an employee might feel is unwarranted is leveled ignore the attacks and look at the sales numbers and the ms stock price if you need some gratification just keep doing the great job you have done in the past thx dave xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os ms windows misc comp os ms windows setup path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu geraldo cc utexas edu donald cc utexas edu not for mail from bkv donald cc utexas edu newsgroups comp os ms windows misc comp os ms windows setup subject suggestions for winforwg com redirection needed followup to comp os ms windows misc date may organization the university of texas austin lines sender bkv ccwf cc utexas edu distribution usa message id stgoh adq donald cc utexas edu nntp posting host donald cc utexas edu summary help with wfwg help am trying to find software that will allow com port redirection under windows for workgroups can anyone out there make suggestion or reccommend something would really hate to have to write some driver for the serial port that would support the network but that is my next step thanks in advance bkv path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net wupost trinews sbc com pcshen1 tri sbc com cas from cas sbctri sbc com chris shenefiel newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject mouse systems driver for mouse control in dos window date thu may gmt organization southwestern bell technology resources lines message id cas sbctri sbc com nntp posting host pcshen1 sbc com does anyone know if there is such an animal have mouse systems trackball and would like driver for this device that would allow me to use the mouse within dos window the same way microsoft mouse driver works thanks chris chris shenefiel who does not represent his company in any way shape or form on this forum nor do his opinions or comments represent the opinions of his company nor do his opinions or comments even merit consideration of any kind path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech prism mg15 from mg15 prism gatech edu glynn mike newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject how to prevent ctl alt del from windows message id hydra gatech edu date may gmt organization georgia institute of technology lines would like to prevent our windows users from using ctl alt del from within windows know there must be way to do it could anyone point me in the right direction thanks in advance mike glynn mike glynn business gatech edu mike glynn stolen sig follows hot rodder is someone who is completely internet mg15 prism gatech edu baffled by people who are not into cars xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net ira uka de scsing switch ch rzusuntk unizh ch ps from ps rzu unizh ch sezgey pachkovsky subject re challenge to microsoft supporters message id may13 rzu news unizh ch followup to alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc sender newsadm rzu news unizh ch cnews administration organization university of zurich switzerland newsreader tin version pl8 references c6ywjx prm hawnews watson ibm com distribution usa date thu may gmt lines mike dahmus mike schleppo bocaraton ibm com wrote yes lot of what os has in common with os was written by you guys however many of the things that made os so much more successful win os workplace shell than previous versions were ibm work win os is ibm work you make me laugh re writing couple of thousands lines of code to make windows compatible with your dpmi implementation does not make the rest of windows ibm work serge xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu andrew cmu edu ks3l from kenton shaver ks3l andrew cmu edu newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc subject re challenge to microsoft supporters date thu may organization sponsored account systems group carnegie mellon pittsburgh pa lines distribution usa message id afwc6k200awwmb l50 andrew cmu edu references may12 microsoft com may12 microsoft com may13 microsoft com c6z0f5 c3 uceng uc edu nntp posting host po3 andrew cmu edu in reply to c6z0f5 c3 uceng uc edu bferrell cicada occ uc edu brett ferrell writes in article may13 microsoft com jenk microsoft com jen kilm er writes found there were actually two surveys one of randomly selected resellers one of randomly selected users from the upgrade registered user database both surveys showed positive rating jen if jd power and associates did the survey would like an anonymous ftp site to pick it up at only sucker believes an ms released survey results about an ms product ok assume that the results of the survey whatever they are are honest if the results indicated extreme dissatisfaction with the product is ms going to tell us to stop buying ms dos because it sux sure would it not be fair to say that the relatively few people who have decided to purchase would be inclined to like it just as those of us who love os most of the people who but them know more or less what to expect and are not disappointed mean it is nice to know that the people who bought it are happy and important for ms to know and don dispute the accuracy just would hate to see people extrapolate from that population that dos is the next computer revolution well these statistics are to shut people up and add some microscopic weight to ms arguments as just said you have seen what automakers do who is going to believe chrysler if they tell us in random chrysler conducted survey my theory about certain people is that they are convinced that if point is maintained long enough it is true after all what is the focus of this company information money and information technology is for some an expedient toward these ends why did bill gates drop out of college was it because he couldn afford it at the time was it because as the wsj says he couldn wait to use what he knew to go out and make money bill gate answer to this question would be highly interesting await it can stomach bill declaring himself visionary and using every available opportunity to build up the cult around himself and then having ms sell dos and windoze as their main stays kenton cmu edu os fixes broken windows xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl netcomsv netcom com gurgle from gurgle netcom com pete gontier subject re challenge to microsoft supporters message id gurglec6zd19 ai netcom com organization cellular references twalls tm ncc1701d demon co uk c6kdq4 hb news udel edu twalls ut ncc1701d demon co uk may93 vax clarku edu twalls vo ncc1701d demon co uk mfischer ucsd edu twalls wa ncc1701d demon co uk mfischer ucsd edu date thu may gmt lines mfischer ucsd edu mike fischer writes you re missing the main point of capitalism in the first place competition breeds excellence yes where commodities are concerned imagining that capitalist theorists had software in mind when they wrote their grand treatises on the main point of capitalism is non productive pete gontier ec technology gurgle netcom com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet europa eng gtefsd com darwin sura net udel mr slate cis udel edu mayorga from mayorga mr slate cis udel edu anibal mayorga newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject disk image question date may gmt organization university of delaware newark lines distribution usa message id su92j a1 nigel ee udel edu nntp posting host mr slate cis udel edu hello recently noticed there is directory named diskimage in my disk didn notice it before and wonder if while installing an application an image of the disk was created or if win3 automatically created backup of its files couldn find any documentation on the diskimage utility having an image of the disk is taking lot of disk space does anybody know if this is just something the people who installed win3 did or it is backup mechanism thanks anibal anibal mayorga wenark dr mayorga cis udel edu newark de newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net darwin sura net sgiblab wetware spunky redbrick com psinntp psinntp wrldlnk usenet from nathan gregory p00211 psilink com subject upgrading to windows nt message id p00211 psilink com sender usenet worldlink com nntp posting host organization performance systems int date thu may gmt mailer psilink dos lines like to appeal to the net nt wizards for bit of advice first general description of the machine as follows motherboard utron mhz opti chipset meg memory kb cache soon hope to drop dx2 chip into it fahrenheit video meg x768x256 proaudio spectrum sound board primary disk connor cp30174 on caching ide controller secondary disk conner cp30174 as slave on same controller tertiary disk fujitsu meg on superstore esdi controller planned future disks include scsi hd and cd rom on pas16 scsi port tape drive is colorado jumbo on the floppy controller future tape drive may be dat on the scsi interface other hardware includes modem fax serial ports and teletext board ugly dos software drives the latter applications used include normal windows stuff excel word quicken and turbo pascal windows but the important stuff is my audio work environment which includes turtle beach wave for windows mcs stereo and other misc stuff for dinking around with audio files also use stacker on the primary drive hp newwave for my wife use and she won let me get rid of it and product called infinite disk from chili pepper software for hierarchical storage management of my seldom used offline files plan to upgrade to nt when it becomes released product was stongly tempted to become beta user early on but don have time to mess around with the hassles of beta software expect to buy it tear off the shrink wrap and use it without hassle know unrealistic but can hope can after all have work to do the advice want concerns the state of nt regarding device drivers and hardware specific stuff in general how smoothly can expect the upgrade to go can expect support for all my stuff or do still need to scramble around downloading drivers pas orchid colorado from some bbs etc what steps should take to ensure the installation goes smoothly note that want to nuke dos totally from the system allergic to command lines plan to run pure nt system also will nt communicate with the workgroups lan what about stacker currently have stacker on the first disk drive without stacker and the infinite disk product will have great difficulty fitting everything have on the system it cramped now realize stacker will be incompatible with nt but will there be an nt version or will nt support compression la dos know infinite disk will be incompatible with nt but will they offer or does anybody else comparable product for nt and at what cost perhaps need to ask chili pepper that question can live without id if have to but rather not will nt run my dos apps the teletext board mainly without dos on the system what do need to keep around any feedback or advice including forget nt with good reasons is much appreciated my only significant reason for moving to nt is need better multitasking environment than windows among other reasons wave locks up the machine for hours and hours doing dsp processing on large audio files and want better lan support than now have internet access etc maybe there are better solutions than nt and if so would appreciate hearing about them os what it status these days pls respond by email and if there is interest ll summarize for the net thanks nathan gregory p00211 psilink com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet caen rphroy c2k01 cad gmeds com cve385 ttp cad gmeds com drohand from drohand cad gmeds com dominic drohan newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject re how to prevent ctl alt del from windows date thu may gmt organization eds cadillac lines message id drohand cad gmeds com references hydra gatech edu nntp posting host cve385 ttp cad gmeds com in article hydra gatech edu mg15 prism gatech edu glynn mike writes would like to prevent our windows users from using ctl alt del from within windows know there must be way to do it could anyone point me in the right direction thanks in advance mike glynn are you sure you want to do that if win app locks up for some reason ctrl alt del may be the only way to kill the app and get back to windows granted it doesn work all that often but it has come in handy on occasion consider it pretty carefully before disabled that keystroke just thought if you like to talk for hours just go ahead now the spin doctors dominic drohan electronic data systems eds email drohand cad gmeds com note the views and opinions expressed herein are mine and do not reflect those of eds xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet microsoft wingnut philipla from philipla microsoft com phil lafornara subject re challenge to microsoft supporters message id may13 microsoft com date may gmt organization microsoft corporation references slalp ls2 tamsun tamu edu may12 microsoft com sundaram msuinfo distribution usa lines in article sundaram msuinfo sundaram egr msu edu divya sundaram writes jenk microsoft com jen kilmer writes much bs deleted for brevity again my point was that not all microsofties are here to sell readers on our products which would conflict with the no ads philosophy of usenet nor do we necessarily have access to info that others have it certainly smacks of that remember the poll that you quoted saying that you had seen of users being satisfied with dos care to recall how unbiased the sample set was that post sure looked like fud and coming from microsoftie well it sure seemed like something was not on level if recall jen said right up front how the sample set was derived where the fud advocacy is good but spreading fud to advocate your favorite os is very unethical especially when you have vested interest in the success of that os does this mean can flame you if ever see you doing it face it the advocacy groups are for the kind of things that you re preaching against this is why they were created in the first place to filter out all the crap from the newsgroups that might contain real information phil nothing have posted here is in any way shape or form official microsoft policy or opinion and should not be represented as such when quoted here or in any other forum philipla microsoft com nntp posting host fac csr byu edu lines path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet gatech news byu edu news message id zf byu edu date thu may mdt newsgroups comp os ms windows misc from ecktons ucs byu edu sean eckton subject re why is my mouse so jumpy ms mouse references byu edu may10 icf hrb com organization fine arts and communications brigham young university distribution world my original post subject re why is my mouse so jumpy ms mouse have microsoft serial mouse and am using mouse com was using think but switched to to see if it was any better vertical motion is nice and smooth but horizontal motion is so bad sometimes can click on something because my mouse jumps around can be moving the mouse to the right with relatively uniform motion and the mouse will move smoothly for bit then jump to the right then move smoothly for bit then jump again maybe this time to the left about inch this is crazy have never had so much trouble with mouse before anyone have any solutions aha think found the problem and it isn dirt another guy here was using different kind of mouse and was using x400x16 video driver the default vga for windows he has an s3 localbus card like do and when loaded the s3 video driver in windows for him his mouse became jumpy too seems like it is the s3 driver is there any newer one than version that would solve this problem it is really bad have to use the keyboard instead sometimes the s3 w31 zip on cica is version which is the same version that came with my card sean eckton computer support representative college of fine arts and communications hfac brigham young university provo ut hfac csr byu edu ecktons ucs byu edu newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet cs utexas edu utnut torn watserv2 uwaterloo ca watserv1 eolite uwaterloo ca roger from roger de abreu roger glenn uwaterloo ca subject re good autoexec bat and config sys for windows message id c6zffd boe watserv1 uwaterloo ca xxmessage id a8181b0c6101361d eolite uwaterloo ca xxdate thu may gmt sender news watserv1 uwaterloo ca organization earth observations lab useragent nuntius v1 d11 references br7ralebh107h viamar uucp c6tuye k1s watserv1 uwaterloo ca c6uf2d gz2 acsu buffalo edu date thu may gmt lines in article c6uf2d gz2 acsu buffalo edu kan mongwa mongwa acsu buffalo edu writes in article c6s2ux n0f acsu buffalo edu kan mongwa mongwa acsu buffalo edu writes do not load smartdrv sys if you are using stacker this applies for windows replied why do you mean just use smartdrv exe in autoexec bat roger you answered quoting from windows setup txt under the section for using stacker for best performance do not use smartdrive to cache the compressed drive you only need to cache the uncompressed drive check it out for yourself think it is important to clear up your first reply you gave the impression that you should not use smartdrive with stacker you are correct re caching the compressed drive however as understand it you can cache the uncompressed drive thus if you have compressed your disk you will have and probably drive under stacker being the compressed disk which is just large file on and being the uncompressed disk you should only attempt to stack in fact with win and smartdrv exe it seems smart enough to automatically default to stacking your and drives roger newsgroups comp os ms windows misc comp os ms windows app path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel news udel edu darwin sura net howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu usenet ucs indiana edu nickel ucs indiana edu jhardono from jhardono nickel ucs indiana edu independent quorum distributor computer seller shipper subject why does my window restart my computer message id c70kvo e6s usenet ucs indiana edu sender news usenet ucs indiana edu usenet news system nntp posting host nickel ucs indiana edu organization indiana university would like to know cause of my window problem every time date fri may gmt lines files buffers device windows himem sys device windows smartdrv exe double buffer stacks and also my autoexec bat vshield windows smartdrv exe rem mouseware setup path dos windows fax mouse wp51 set temp windows temp mouse ser rem dos share have you seen this problem before please help me out thanks hadi newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet news crd ge com e7sa ivory from ivory e7sa crd ge com john ivory subject how to make an rle file message id c70lcq ua crdnns crd ge com sender ivory e7sa epi syr ge com nntp posting host organization tower concepts date fri may gmt lines told that can replace the colorful windows logo that appears as windows invokes with graphic of my choosing the challange is that the image must be in rle format ve got gif pic jpg tif etc everything but rle what the best route to converting these things what program should download and from where has anybody else done this and do you have the steps available thanks mail to ivory e7sa epi syr ge com or ivory tower com would be prefered path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu uwm edu msuinfo news from tom carter carter photon cem msu edu newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject microcal origin working model new version uploaded to cica date may gmt organization department of chemistry michigan state university lines distribution world message id t04eh j8q msuinfo cl msu edu reply to carter photon cem msu edu nntp posting host exciton cem msu edu ve recently uploaded to cica the current v2 version of the working model of microcal origin scientific and technical graphics and data analysis package for windows the working model is only and puts promo message on hardcopies but is largely identical to the full version saving origin files is disabled but you can save ascii data sets produced with origin it also says it has an expiration date of sept try it you may like it as do it currently in pub pc win3 uploads as origin zip include std disclaimer tom carter carter photon cem msu edu michigan state university carter msucem bitnet chemistry department newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net darwin sura net aplcen apl jhu edu packards pc jhuapl edu from packard aplcomm jhuapl edu mike packard subject re upgrading to windows nt message id packard packards pc jhuapl edu lines sender news aplcen apl jhu edu usenet news system organization jhu apl newsreader ftpnuz dos v1 references p00211 psilink com date fri may est lines in article p00211 psilink com nathan gregory p00211 psilink com says like to appeal to the net nt wizards for bit of advice this sounds like good question the hardware is specific to him but in general please respond to him via news and not mail there probably are alot of people wanting to read the replies including myself mike packard aplcomm jhuapl edu xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net darwin sura net convex convex convex blee from blee convex com benjamin lee subject re challenge to microsoft supporters sender usenet news eng convex com news access account message id may14 news eng convex com date fri may gmt references may13 samba oit unc edu nntp posting host dhostwo convex com organization engineering convex computer corp richardson tx usa disclaimer this message was written by user at convex computer corp the opinions expressed are those of the user and not necessarily those of convex lines in article dil admin mhs unc edu dave laudicina writes ignore the attacks and look at the sales numbers and the ms stock price if you need some gratification just keep doing the great job you have done in the past thx dave this is the part that usually gets me while am set to make money there usually are other things to be considered and debated that is the purpose of life if you only willing to look at the stock price and sales numbers for gratification usually you ll end up with japanese or whoever that is competitive owing your business short sighted imo this is very irresponsible narrow minded and selfish henceforth ignoring the attack is not the right approach as matter of fact just happen to believe the willingness to debate and readjust is the greatest assets of this society sales number and stock price is the short term result not the cause xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os ms windows apps comp os ms windows misc newsgroups comp os ms windows apps comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet das wang com wang djw from djw wang com david weinstein subject ms test help question is there newsgroup for it organization wang labs lowell ma usa date fri may gmt message id c70tda mpm wang com lines hi would like to know if there is seperate newgroup for discussion of ms test or quality assurance issues or if not what newsgroup would be the appropriate one to use does compuserve or microsoft themselves have bbs people can call for help on such thanks please email response to djw wang com helmet rules what up doc djw wang com have plan now and clue xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp sys mac wanted comp sys next marketplace misc forsale misc forsale computers pc clone comp os ms windows misc misc forsale computers workstation path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet orca cnn sim es com teton npratt from npratt glacier sim es com nevin pratt newsgroups comp sys mac wanted comp sys next marketplace misc forsale misc forsale computers pc clone comp os ms windows misc misc forsale computers workstation subject eps clip art sale date may gmt organization lines distribution world message id sp9tk fr6 cnn sim es com reply to npratt glacier sim es com nntp posting host teton sim es com less than of mailorder price have three libraries all on cd which cost me over two thousand dollars mail order they are all genuine high quality eps vector graphics not just some scans with silly eps wrapper they are totem graphics color eps library about color eps images this costs thousand bucks mailorder rate this clip art as high quality much better than dynamic graphics clip art sotmc clip art etc in my opinion but rate both the library and the library as higher totem art is all color whereas most of the other are it the best all color library out there in my opinion graphics library haven counted how many images but you can purchase the library on floppies to give you an idea of the size this costs about hundred bucks mailorder rate this clip art as very high quality but it only graphics library very popular in all the mac mags this costs about hundred bucks mailorder rate this clip art as very high quality got some awards in one of the major mac mags forgot which some of the images are color but most are for what it worth all three of the cd are saved in multiple file formats they are readable on mac and pc additionally totem will mount native next also although the next could just as easily mount either the mac or pc filesystems ve personally tested the cd on all three machines ve owned all three machines although sold my next few months ago also in my opinion the and libraries are the best in the business and ve seen lots also totem is in my opinion the best all color library around although like color art better want for everything can ship certified check as well as visa mc charge if you pay by visa mc ll ship pre paid in the continental if ship buyer pays freight and fee reason for selling no longer have dtp business please respond via email or telephone as rarely check these news groups nevin email npratt glacier sim es com voice x6420 newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel wupost gumby yale actcnews sun1x news from tal michael wtm utrc utc com subject re multiple printers through print manager message id may14 sun1x res utc com keywords print manager sender wtm utrc utc com nntp posting host lestat organization utrc references lance lance lancea actrix gen nz date fri may gmt lines in article lance lance lancea actrix gen nz lance lancea actrix gen nz lance andrewes writes how does print manager deal with multiple printers we re planning to print to two printers from an application one will be real printer and the other fax program will print manager just deal with the jobs one at time or will it feed to both printers at once please research carefully just because fax modem behaves like printer on local machine doesn guarantee functionality when local machine has fax software printing to remotely installed fax card tried this with workgroups and the fax software didn like it at all could have been winfax peculiarisms but don think so lot of special hardware interaction takes place internally in my case fax manager program merely intercepts the print job and spools it to it own directory not print manager spool directory to software it appears the job was printed print manager plays no part in the handling of the actual process pardon me if ve incorrectly assumed this is what you were up to truely network aware fax modem will most likely be required or lot of weird setup and tinkering good luck path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net ctron news ctron com bourne kuty from kuty bourne ctron paul kuty newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject re diamond stealth date may gmt organization sun microsystems inc lines distribution world message id t03t1innjgu ctron news ctron com references susvf s90 charm magnus acs ohio state edu reply to kuty bourne ctron nntp posting host bourne ctron com in article s90 charm magnus acs ohio state edu vromanel magnus acs ohio state edu vincent romanelli writes recently purchased diamond stealth isa graphics accelerator card based upon positive review by steve gibson of infoworld although it fast find its windows drivers extremely buggy despite implementing all of the diamond technical support suggestions does anyone else have any experience with this card any feedback appreciated have had lot of problems with it belive have the latest drivers for it there are some occasions when fire up windows it works great if you ever find newer drivers would appreciate pointer to there location paul path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel wupost sdd hp com nigel msen com caen saimiri primate wisc edu usenet coe montana edu ogicse usenet ee pdx edu fastrac llnl gov wsrcc com pnext traveler com hack dragoman com wetware spunky redbrick com psinntp psinntp newsserver tasc com jumbo read tasc com jdm from jdm jumbo read tasc com james mcnamara newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject re monitors for windows message id t0ae9inn4j1 jumbo read tasc com date may gmt article jumbo t0ae9inn4j1 references may11 donau et tudelft nl organization tasc lines nntp posting host jumbo read tasc com newsreader tin version pl8 alwin hoogerdijk alwin zen et tudelft nl wrote julio botelho hlbbs uucp julio botelho writes is3does anyone know whether or not it is possible to have monitors working is3with microsoft windows have taxan multi vision and nec this may work when using vga and hercules card in one system but using two vga cards in one system will never work believe that two may be used in tandem on one system this is the one exception to the vga mono dual monitor combo that have heard about has anybody done this jim mc james mcnamara member of technical staff tasc walkers brook drive reading ma x2948 path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel news udel edu darwin sura net news larc nasa gov antares jls from jls antares jon sweet newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject re vbrun100 dll date may gmt organization lesc nasa larc lines distribution world message id t0h79innsdn rave larc nasa gov references may14 mcs kent edu reply to jls antares nntp posting host antares larc nasa gov marion humboldt kent edu lou marion writes can someone point me in the direction of this file thanks lou marion dept of geography kent state university marion humboldt kent edu sure oh sorry this is not rec humor try cica in pub pc win3 get index to see where it is all opinions expressed are my own because nobody else wants them jls antares larc nasa gov jon sweet newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech concert samba usenet from dil admin mhs unc edu dave laudicina subject re vbrun100 dll message id may14 samba oit unc edu sender usenet samba oit unc edu nntp posting host dil adp unc edu organization unc office of information technology date fri may gmt lines can someone point me in the direction of this file thanks should come with visual basic new version is vbrun200 dll thx dave path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech swrinde cs utexas edu uunet pipex warwick kinguni ceres cs e373 from cs e373 king ac uk matthew simpkin newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject re adding icons to progman exe date may gmt organization kingston university kingston upon thames lines message id t0jsminnmci mercury kingston ac uk references wkddmfhi link escape de nntp posting host ceres kingston ac uk newsreader tin version pl8 florian piekert floppy link escape de wrote hi out there is there anybody who can write me how to add icons to the iconlist which is build into of progman exe grateful for every clue thanx and have nice day one way is to use program called iconmaster it shareware and if you can get it mail me and ll post it to you matthew simpkin kingston university primitive race you too cs e373 kingston ac uk computer science shall be asimilated newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl olivea inews rhudson from rhudson gomez intel com ron hudson subject re solution multi setups on standalone easy message id c6z12t mzy inews intel com sender news inews intel com usenet news system nntp posting host gomez organization software technology intel corp santa clara ca newsreader tin version pl8 references goudswaa sfu ca date thu may gmt lines peter goudswaard goudswaa fraser sfu ca wrote setup deleted finally in order to run your specific version of windows you must simply change the path to include winmastr and your specific configuration path winwife you could get fancy and use batch files environment variables or menuing system to do this other stuff delete if you happen to be running the new msdos you could use multi setup to provide menu with menu choice for each person using the machine power up select your name the menu will use your personal sections of config sys and autoexec bat thus setting up the path then running your windows copy ron temp at intel views are my own xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net darwin sura net news feed peachnet edu concert samba usenet from dil admin mhs unc edu dave laudicina subject re challenge to microsoft supporters message id may14 samba oit unc edu sender usenet samba oit unc edu nntp posting host dil adp unc edu organization unc office of information technology date fri may gmt lines this is the part that usually gets me while am set to make money there usually are other things to be considered and debated that is the purpose of life like it or not stock prices and sales of particular product are measures of success they can be measures of short term or long term success think in ms case they are good measure of their long term success the original post mentioned how it seems on this group that there are large number of people attacking ms and not willing to accept anything positive about ms was trying to make point that the attacks are over emphasized and to look at the sales of ms products they definitely tell different story also think large number of the attackers or debaters as you call them are highly technical look around in the real world people don want to grep and auck and ls they just want to push the buttons and get their job done on reasonably priced piece of hardware that does not need computer smart guy to load configure etc etc like it or not ms and the multitudes of business applications that exist to run under windows does this and does it well we are running pc loaded with complete suite of mostly ms windows applications in an administrative business function on novell network running all software off the server it does the job quite well and if we had it to do over again we would pick windows again again repeat to ms keep doing what you are doing you are doing great job flame on thx dave newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu linac uchinews kimbark ajs8 from ajs8 kimbark uchicago edu adam jeremy schorr subject bit access message id may14 midway uchicago edu sender news uchinews uchicago edu news system reply to ajs8 midway uchicago edu organization university of chicago date fri may gmt lines have gateway dx2 does anyone know if csn or can duse bit access newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu magnus acs ohio state edu csn news den mmc com iplmail sirius wwilliam from wwilliam orl mmc com william williamson subject re floorplan layout program message id may14 iplmail orl mmc com sender news iplmail orl mmc com network news manager reply to wwilliam orl mmc com organization martin marietta orlando references gmills chemical watstar uwaterloo ca date fri may gmt lines in article chemical watstar uwaterloo ca gmills chemical watstar uwaterloo ca phil trodwell writes hi desperately seeking preferably shareware program to assist in the architectural layout of house floorplan does something like this exist other than basic cad programs please mail don always get to the news before it expires thanks in advance phil trodwell the best ve seen is visio runs under windows it not shareware however gary williamson aka wwilliam polaris orl mmc com orlando florida path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu menudo uh edu ccsvax sfasu edu shererrg from shererrg ccsvax sfasu edu newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject head to head win and os message id may15 ccsvax sfasu edu date may cst organization stephen austin state university lines after hearing endless debate read name calling over which os is better dos and windows or os and finally having enought resourses to play with couple of different operating systems have decided to put the two products to head to head test as so many fellow newsposters have suggested have however no desire whatsoever to use version of os which wont really do what it says run windows apps os will not run windows apps in enhansed mode something that most larger windows apps require but os which is supposed to be in beta test is supposed to have heard that os beta is available via ftp and was wondering if anyone knew where to obtain copy would appreciate any information as would like once and for all to establish for myself which is the best os for my needs robbie shererrg sfasu edu newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net europa eng gtefsd com news ans net cmcl2 panix carlf from carlf panix com carl fink subject odd mouse behavior message id c70zkn j9i panix com organization panix public access unix nyc date fri may gmt lines hi one of my coworkers is having very odd problem his mouse works fine in dos applications if you load them from the prompt under windows the mouse pointer is present but does not move even if you load dos app under windows the mouse doesn work the computer is zeos sx diamond speedstar vga running ms dos and windows mouse driver is microsoft ve tried switching the mouse from com1 to com2 ve tried different mouse ve reinstalled mouse drv and can get the blamed thing to work the only difference between his system and mine where the mouse works perfectly is that he has an expansion card with an additional parallel and serial port could that cause the problem thanks in advance for any help carl fink carlf panix com fink4 genie if you can laugh at yourself then you can bet that everyone else is doing so ed johnston newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet seas gwu edu louray from louray seas gwu edu michael panayiotakis subject re hot key for screen saver message id may15 seas gwu edu sender news seas gwu edu organization george washington university references ssq6t qc usenet ins cwru edu castle ed ac uk sv27f pc3 sunb ocs mq edu au date sat may gmt lines well renaming screensavers scr to exe and running them as has been pposted haven tried changing win ini but should have same effect shows me the setup dialog box butdoesn enable the saver mickey xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os ms windows misc comp os ms windows setup from jls atglab atg com jerome schneider reply to jls atg com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu magnus acs ohio state edu csn csn jls date may gmt message id may15 atglab atg com newsgroups comp os ms windows misc comp os ms windows setup references srg8c i54 spud hyperion com distribution world subject re questions about dos external join command followup to comp os ms windows misc sender news atglab atg com news system organization aspen technology group mailer uupc bsnews modified lines in article srg8c i54 spud hyperion com the author writes am setting up my dos unix box on ide and scsi drive and was wondering about the use of the ms dos join command like the way it sets things up since won have to stick with the crap that dos enforces like how it would mimic mount points of unix filesystems have heard that there were problems with using it or at least under older versions of dos please tell have been using the join command for many years now mostly with good success in duplicating unix style file mounts you will hear lots of people cursing join because they confuse it with the dos append command truely gnarly hack but don believe them you also will hear people saying that microsoft recommends that you not use join but in microsoft windows workgroups resource toolkit the following appears join an ms dos utility works fine with windows for workgroups if you do not change the state of the joined drives during windows for workgroups session this includes adding or removing joined drives from within windows for workgroups we recommend that you do not use join when running windows setup or windows for workgroups within this caveat join appears to be valid under windows however have found couple of applications that don deal well with filesystems that have been mounted using join in particular the worst offender is word for windows it gets very confused when you edit and then try to save file on joined drive it wants to create the saved file as nnnnn tmp in the current dir then delete the old file and rename the nnnnn tmp file to the doc file unfortunately wfw usually writes the nnnnn tmp file in some idiotic place other than the current directory often in the root dir of the joined filesystem but not always then after deleting the original doc file it can find the nnnnn tmp file to rename it unless you search your disk systems the document is gone have also found subtle problems using the mks toolkit from dos box when joined filesystems are present used to join temp with meg ramdisk but mks sometimes gets confused when doing an ls on the temp dir and misses some files in the temp dir this is difficult to reproduce but it goes away totally when join is not used think this is windows problem rather than mks since it works ok under raw dos so would suggest that you can use join but be aware that it may not be as robust you would like wouldn it be real great to mount network drives under the main file tree rather than having all those darned drive letters unfortunately join won let you do it there was talk on the net about simple patch to let join work on network drives but don remember the source it too bad the join command is not better implemented since it would avoid using all those stupid drive letters realize that messdos was meant for casual even ignorant users so mounting all the drives in one file tree might be confusing but it looks like ms is going to carry this over into windows nt another os meant for casual even igorant users not with all it old family system baggage maybe ms needs recovery group so they can get on with life jerome jerry schneider domain jls atg com aspen technology group uucp uunet csn atglab jls po box ft collins co voice path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl access usask ca skorpio punshon from punshon skorpio usask ca john punshon newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject playing midi music on ati stereo cd sound card date may gmt organization university of saskatchewan saskatoon canada lines message id t2b6s h46 access usask ca nntp posting host skorpio usask ca am running windows in enhanced mode the sound card have is the ati stereo cd sound card which claims adlib and soundblaster compatibility using windows mediaplayer can play the midi files that came with my sound card however can play any of the midi files that belong to the winjammer midi editor that ftp from cica also can play any midi files generate with muzika also from cica when try to play the files dialog box pops up saying that the music may not play right and it has checkbox asking me if wish to disable this message in the future is this normal or do have something set wrong would really like to be able to write music on muzika and have my computer play it also ftp the game dare2dream for windows from cica and its music won play either get the same dialog box the midi mappers that have are ati ext midi ati opl3 midi and vanilla have tried using all three any help suggestions shoulders to cry on etc would be appreciated very much john john punshon punshon cs usask ca newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet mcsun sunic news lth se knut from knut tts lth se ake knutsson subject hot key for switching to the program manager message id may15 lth se sender news lth se organization communication systems lund institute of technology sweden date sat may gmt lines in win one may assign hot keys for the program items within the program manager how about the program manager itself is there one already or is there some way to assign one regards ake ake knutsson email knut tts lth se dept of communication systems uunet tts lth se knut lund institute of technology sweden fax xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net wupost waikato ac nz comp vuw ac nz ferrari datamark co nz thomas newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc subject re challenge to microsoft supporters message id may15 datamark co nz from thomas datamark co nz thomas beagle date sat may gmt references twalls vo ncc1701d demon co uk c716uq ii3 feenix metronet com may14 klaava helsinki fi organization datamark international ltd lines in article may14 klaava helsinki fi jliukkon klaava helsinki fi juha matti liukkonen writes let me pose question how many ms dos users are out there who have no access to the net but would probably find this feature useful too ie your suggestion implies that microsoft is relying on the shareware or pd products to fill the gaps on dos or did misunderstand your statement shareware is available from the net magazines distributors clubs friends and bulletin boards don think people have any problems getting hold of it fill gaps in dos there no need for many people dos provides more services than need as it is just run windows on top of it btw my windows must be an operating system it provides disk operating system that dos can access nfs thomas beagle thomas datamark co nz work technical writer thomas cavebbs welly gen nz home wellington nz long ears make good handles xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet pipex bnr co uk bnrgate corpgate crchh327 bnr ca grier from bjgrier bnr ca brian grier subject re challenge to microsoft supporters message id c71c1k yk news rich bnr ca sender grier bnr ca brian grier date fri may gmt references may14 samba oit unc edu nntp posting host organization bell northern research lines lots of stuff deleted because felt like it this ms bashing has definitely lost all its humor value think most of the people posting are forgetting that most users of ms products do not even know about internet and unix is that very unfriendly place where bizzare abreviations replace the rather comfortable abreviations they know and the abreviations have subtle differences between the different vendors while pc users tend to customize any windowing setup they can not do much with their command line so to most of the computer users in the world ms product symbolize quality ms has made their life easier and more productive and to them that is quality they do not care about what innovative things ms has done other than to make their life with computer one heck of lot easier you may know better than most computer users in this world but that will not change their perception face it until unix come up with decent gui that is available to all variations of unix it just will not catch on with the mainstream of computer users we here on the net are not mainstream computer users brian disclaimer the opinions expressed are mine not those of bnr brian ws1s st tt user developer if wanted computer to play games bell northern research on buy an amiga however have research triangle park nc real work to do so please get lost xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os ms windows apps comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech destroyer cs ubc ca unixg ubc ca unixg ubc ca relova from relova unixg ubc ca michael relova newsgroups comp os ms windows apps comp os ms windows misc subject re winfax files in ascii format date may gmt organization the university of british columbia lines message id relova unixg ubc ca references zhao may14123957 sparta nmsu edu nntp posting host unixg ubc ca in zhao may14123957 sparta nmsu edu zhao nmsu edu zhao writes currently we are using winfax software to receive send fax on our pcs it works pretty well the problem is that all received files are in bit map format which take lots of hd space have been told there is some programs that can do pattern recognition of the raster characters in fax in files and translate them into ascii code then store the file in ascii format would you like to tell me whether or not there is such software package to do such translation if there is one where can find it is any such software package on public domain what version of winfax do you have the newest version has an ocr optical character recognition built in what this means is that it can take fax ie letter and convert it into ascii so that one can edit the document re typing it however found that the ocr that comes packaged with winfax does not work as well as omnipage professional also by delrina software so once again winfax ver has what you are looking for good luck regards zizi path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net news feed peachnet edu gatech prism ccastco from ccastco prism gatech edu costas malamas newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject re windows vs communication proagrams message id hydra gatech edu date may gmt distribution usa organization georgia institute of technology lines in article lee seas ucla edu victorf wright seas ucla edu victor friedman writes can anybody tell me what exactly windows does to the com ports why can run single communication program under windows have procomm quicklink commo neither of them respond to modem commands after the connection has finally been established although still able to manage vick victorf seas ucla edu this is one of the trickiest problems win personally run telix for dos under windows just fine and ve been waiting for the win version froever but have to admit am the exception to the rule have tried installing various dos comm progs on friends machines most of them big problems some of the stuff you have to lookout for always run the prog thru pif never by calling its exe in the pif always toggle on lock application memory actually this is something ms points out in the readme wri file and is especially critical for downloading go under ctrl panel enh and check for all your com ports alway warn it will help debugging this thing and it healthier check where are running the mouse from com port check the com port addresses from your bios setup and from ctrl panel ports setup advanced these might help if yu still have problems get and buy procomm win hope it helps somehow costas malamas georgia institute of technology oit ua oit doesn pay me enough to share their opinions internet ccastco prism gatech edu newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net torn nott emr1 jagrant from jagrant emr1 emr ca john grant subject re head to head win and os message id may15 emr1 emr ca organization energy mines and resources ottawa references may15 ccsvax sfasu edu date sat may gmt lines in article may15 ccsvax sfasu edu shererrg ccsvax sfasu edu writes after hearing endless debate read name calling over which os is better dos and windows or os and finally having enought resourses to play with couple of different operating systems have decided to put the two products to head to head test as so many fellow newsposters have suggested have however no desire whatsoever to use version of os which wont really do what it says run windows apps os will not run windows apps in enhansed mode something that most larger windows apps require but os which is supposed to be in beta test is supposed to have heard that os beta is available via ftp and was wondering if anyone knew where to obtain copy would appreciate any information as would like once and for all to establish for myself which is the best os for my needs don think the question is will os run windows apps now more important question is will subsequent os versions continue to run apps from subsequent windows versions in the future can it keep up will future os run windows apps ole2 is very complex and is the sign of things to come after this fall believe ibm no longer has any rights to view microsoft code after that the only way to maintain some sort of compatibility is to reverse engineer would you want to reverse engineer an ole2 application john grant jagrant emr1 emr ca airborne geophysics geological survey of canada ottawa xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu news cs indiana edu babbage ece uc edu uceng uc edu cicada occ uc edu bferrell from bferrell cicada occ uc edu brett ferrell subject re re challenge to microsoft supporters message id c7315q cc uceng uc edu sender root uceng uc edu system privileged account nntp posting host cicada occ uc edu organization university of cincinnati references may13 microsoft com may13 infodev cam ac uk c716ra igc feenix metronet com date sat may gmt lines in article c716ra igc feenix metronet com jack feenix metronet com jack hudler writes still after the impact of all the ito at ibm all that left of its employee base are the deadbeats suspect we ll see about st quarter boy are you going to look silly in couple of weeks brett sherron ferrell email bferrell uceng uc edu of cincy catch the cats college of engineering if you can xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os msdos misc comp os ms windows misc newsgroups comp os msdos misc comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net darwin sura net wupost math ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu usenet ins cwru edu agate headwall stanford edu csd newshost stanford edu xenon stanford edu yuting from yuting xenon stanford edu eugene kuo subject microsoft bbs number message id may15 csd newshost stanford edu sender news csd newshost stanford edu organization computer science department stanford university distribution na date sat may gmt lines hi can anyone tell me what microsoft bbs number is tried the one that is given on the dos upgrade manual but that number never answered the call thanks please email newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet destroyer cs ubc ca newsserver sfu ca sfu ca goudswaa from goudswaa fraser sfu ca peter goudswaard subject re solution multi setups on standalone easy message id goudswaa sfu ca sender news sfu ca organization simon fraser university burnaby canada references goudswaa sfu ca c6z12t mzy inews intel com date sat may gmt lines rhudson gomez intel com ron hudson writes peter goudswaard goudswaa fraser sfu ca wrote setup deleted finally in order to run your specific version of windows you must simply change the path to include winmastr and your specific configuration path winwife you could get fancy and use batch files environment variables or menuing system to do this other stuff delete if you happen to be running the new msdos you could use multi setup to provide menu with menu choice for each person using the machine power up select your name the menu will use your personal sections of config sys and autoexec bat thus setting up the path then running your windows copy ron excellent suggestion ron and as further comment on dos if you decide to install windows standalone configuration completely in more than directory on your hard drive and use dos to jump to specific copy for each user you could be saving yourself many megs of disk space if you use the setup and technique peter goudswaard goudswaa sfu ca preferred pgoudswa cln etc bc ca pgoudswa cue bc ca there no gift like the present goudswaard observation nntp posting host fac csr byu edu lines path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net wupost bigboy sbc com news mtholyoke edu news byu edu news message id jg byu edu date sat may mdt newsgroups comp os ms windows misc from ecktons ucs byu edu sean eckton subject s3 card problems keywords s3 local bus microsoft mouse organization fine arts and communications brigham young university posted message here some time ago asking why my mouse was so jumpy well think know why and it doesn have anything to do with the mouse it seems to be the video driver here why think that few weeks ago helped guy install the driver for his s3 video card for windows he had been using the normal windows default vga driver we don have the same kind of mouse mine is microsoft serial and his is an off brand serial mouse his mouse worked fine until installed the s3 v1 driver on his system then his mouse became really jumpy too is there anything can do need high resolution since display lots of stuff on my screen ami pro pegasus mail for windows wp office sorry nondisclosure and alot more noticed there are s3 drivers on ftp cica but they are the same version that already have and they are no help already tried sean eckton computer support representative college of fine arts and communications hfac brigham young university provo ut hfac csr byu edu ecktons ucs byu edu newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet pipex uknet mcsun sunic ugle unit no trane uninett no nntp uio no nuug mikrosys no frank from frank mikrosys no frank mikalsen subject re hot key for screen saver message id may16 mikrosys no sender frank mikrosys no frank mikalsen organization mikrosys as references ssq6t qc usenet ins cwru edu castle ed ac uk sv27f pc3 sunb ocs mq edu au may15 seas gwu edu posting front end winix conference running under ms windows date sun may gmt lines in article may15 seas gwu edu louray seas gwu edu michael panayiotakis writes well renaming screensavers scr to exe and running them as has been pposted haven tried changing win ini but should have same effect shows me the setup dialog box butdoesn enable the saver mickey start the renamed saver vid the commandline option frank xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net spool mu edu olivea pagesat spssig spss com feenix metronet com jack from jack feenix metronet com jack hudler subject re challenge to microsoft supporters references twalls vo ncc1701d demon co uk c716uq ii3 feenix metronet com may14 klaava helsinki fi organization tx metronet communications services dallas tx date sun may gmt message id c73mmy hhk feenix metronet com lines in article may14 klaava helsinki fi jliukkon klaava helsinki fi juha matti liukkonen writes let me pose question how many ms dos users are out there who have no access to the net but would probably find this feature useful too ie your suggestion implies that microsoft is relying on the shareware or pd products to fill the gaps on dos or did misunderstand your statement it called the free enterprize system suggests that those who wish to enhance dos do it an sell it or give it away microsoft can be everything to everyone period xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net spool mu edu olivea pagesat spssig spss com feenix metronet com jack from jack feenix metronet com jack hudler subject re re challenge to microsoft supporters references may13 infodev cam ac uk c716ra igc feenix metronet com c7315q cc uceng uc edu organization tx metronet communications services dallas tx date sun may gmt message id c73mrx hk3 feenix metronet com lines in article c7315q cc uceng uc edu bferrell cicada occ uc edu brett ferrell writes in article c716ra igc feenix metronet com jack feenix metronet com jack hudler writes still after the impact of all the ito at ibm all that left of its employee base are the deadbeats suspect we ll see about st quarter boy are you going to look silly in couple of weeks perhaps newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet pipex uknet mcsun dkuug uts iesd news iesd auc dk habl from habl vision auc dk hans blaasvaer s8 f93 subject re head to head win and os in reply to shererrg ccsvax sfasu edu message of may cst message id habl may16152827 castello vision auc dk sender news iesd auc dk usenet news organization laboratory of image analysis university of aalborg references may15 ccsvax sfasu edu date may lines in article may15 ccsvax sfasu edu shererrg ccsvax sfasu edu writes after hearing endless debate read name calling over which os is better dos and windows or os and finally having enought resourses to play with couple of different operating systems have decided to put the two products to head to head test as so many fellow newsposters have suggested have however no desire whatsoever to use version of os which wont really do what it says run windows apps os will not run windows apps in enhansed mode something that most larger windows apps require but os which is supposed to be in beta test is supposed to have heard that os beta is available via ftp and was wondering if anyone knew where to obtain copy would appreciate any information as would like once and for all to establish for myself which is the best os for my needs robbie shererrg sfasu edu if you wait until may the th you will be able to buy the new os since it will be released at comdex that day it will run windows apps and windows enh mode if you can wait then you can ftp months old beta version from ftp os2 nmsu edu but this version is probably lot slower than the final product when you do your test please have in mind that single tasking system will always be faster at doing one task the real power of os2 lies in the multitasking and can really be measured by stopwatch happy benchmarking hans the whales of the atlantic and the people of the faroe islands have coexisted in perfect harmony for the last years no matter what any urban navel contamplator without any real relation to the coherence of the nature says newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu uunet pipex sunic uts iesd news iesd auc dk habl from habl vision auc dk hans blaasvaer s8 f93 subject re head to head win and os in reply to jagrant emr1 emr ca message of sat may gmt message id habl may16153324 castello vision auc dk sender news iesd auc dk usenet news organization laboratory of image analysis university of aalborg references may15 ccsvax sfasu edu may15 emr1 emr ca date may lines in article may15 emr1 emr ca jagrant emr1 emr ca john grant writes don think the question is will os run windows apps now more important question is will subsequent os versions continue to run apps from subsequent windows versions in the future john grant jagrant emr1 emr ca airborne geophysics geological survey of canada ottawa but the most important question is will there be any os2 apps so we don have to load windows in the future and maybe the question of the future will be will windows run os2 apps now regards hans the whales of the atlantic and the people of the faroe islands have coexisted in perfect harmony for the last years no matter what any urban navel contamplator without any real relation to the coherence of the nature says newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net news feed peachnet edu concert samba usenet from dil admin mhs unc edu dave laudicina subject re head to head win and os message id may16 samba oit unc edu sender usenet samba oit unc edu nntp posting host dil adp unc edu organization unc office of information technology date sun may gmt lines really think you are comparing apples and oranges nobody disputes that os has more big os features the question is does an individual need the power the sales of windows vs os answer that question the next question is even if did want to run os and had this big monster machine to run it on is there diverse set of applications to run on it that allow me to productviely do my work go to your local computer store to answer this one think the comparison you need to be doing is nt vs os2 this is where the new battle lines will be drawn windows has won the single user pc war the next one will be the client server war and the entries are nt os2 unix and netware granted these os will be eventually scaled down to be attractive to the single user pc and that will probably be phase ii of the war who wins only the marketplace will tell but it sure is fun watching and arguing about it tho thx dave path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel wupost spool mu edu eng ufl edu usenet ufl edu maple circa ufl edu dyu from dyu maple circa ufl edu newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject memory date may gmt organization center for instructional and research computing activities lines message id t5k13inngg0 no names nerdc ufl edu reply to dyu ufcc ufl edu nntp posting host maple circa ufl edu does anyone know how to absolute memory locations in windows ie hardware that is memory mapped at very high addresses mb and above please reply by email thanks david path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net ira uka de news dfn de mailgzrz tu berlin de news netmbx de germany eu net rz uni hildesheim de agsc erni escape de link escape de kwgeitz from kwgeitz link escape de karl geitz newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject re data segments and memory model usage message id phs3ykpo link escape de organization link public mailbox braunschweig germany date fri may lines hello phjm you wrote firstly does windows in enhanced mode do anything special with dlls that have been compiled using the large memory model no we are being told that even in enhanced mode windows will load dlls into real memory below and page lock it no my second question relates to static data inside dlls is there any way at all to get multiple instances of the static data segment dgroup no but you can allocate real static data within code segments when you need more dynamic memory you can allocate data on the global heap you can forget most of what was written about memory management under you have paged virtual memory you can lock every block without hampering the memory manager you can use far pointer everytime without always lock unlocking the memory block an besides dll are mostly just disguised exe that happen to be called by another task karl karl geitz hauptstr salzgitter kwgeitz link escape de tel fax cis bix geitzkwg crosspoint v2 xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net ira uka de news dfn de mailgzrz tu berlin de news netmbx de germany eu net mcsun uknet edcastle festival leeds ac uk news from csympc scs leeds ac uk conmy newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc subject re challenge to microsoft supporters message id may16 gps leeds ac uk date may gmt references may14 samba oit unc edu sender nntp gps leeds ac uk organization the university of leeds school of computer studies lines originator csympc csgi45 in article may14 samba oit unc edu dil admin mhs unc edu dave laudicina writes also think large number of the attackers or debaters as you call them are highly technical look around in the real world people don want to grep and auck and ls they just want to push the buttons and get their you mean grep unix is case dependent and awk where did you get auck from mark path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu usc news service uci edu ucivax ucla cs ucla se edison seas ucla edu victorf from victorf edison seas ucla edu victor friedman newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject re demonstration creation program wanted message id lee seas ucla edu date may gmt references c6v8ro ug cs vu nl sender news seas ucla edu organization seasnet university of california los angeles lines in article c6v8ro ug cs vu nl martijn cs vu nl lemmens ml writes looking for program or toolkit with which it is possible to create demonstrations very fast with demonstration mean collection of screens the one that is looking to the demonstration should be able to make choices by pressing buttons to change screens hypertext each screen will contain question text or bitmap and few answers buttons it should be possible to play music and or show animations film ve heard of animator pro and visual basic but don know what these can do autodesk animator is good tool the one like is show partner fx if you want it could give copy to you did lot of advertising with it it lets you create both graphics any resolution and text frames run it all as film you can make choices and include music guess that just what you need if you re really interested email me vick victor friedman victorf seas ucla edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech emory nntp msstate edu whale st usm edu callison from callison whale st usm edu charles james allison newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject re mac disks in windows date may gmt organization university of southern mississippi lines distribution world message id t692p pkm tut msstate edu references uupcb hal9k com nntp posting host whale st usm edu in article uupcb hal9k com scott lynn hal9k com scott lynn writes well do alot of graphic design work and am remaining loyal to dos windows instead of macs my college isn though and can only scan images on macintosh does anyone know of program that can read mac disks the apple file exchange on the nac that writes to dos disks probably leaves me visibly older during every session want to do the transfer in windows instead macsee zip on ftp cica indiana edu is supposed to read and write mac disks ve never tried it though good luck callison whale st usm edu xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu sdd hp com decwrl decwrl access usask ca sue news from maclennan meena cc uregina ca maclennan richard neil subject my os is better than your os so there was challenge to ms supporters message id may15 sue cc uregina ca sender news sue cc uregina ca date sat may gmt distribution world reply to maclennan meena cc uregina ca references may13 microsoft com may13 infodev cam ac uk c716ra igc feenix metronet com c7315q cc uceng uc edu organization university of regina regina sask canada lines haven we wasted enough bandwidth on this silly discussion already please no flames let sanity prevail richard maclennan newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech enterpoop mit edu thunder mcrcim mcgill edu not for mail from gel binkley cs mcgill ca gilles khouzam subject re mac disks in windows message id t6efv pj binkley cs mcgill ca lines sender news thunder mcrcim mcgill edu nntp posting host binkley cs mcgill ca organization socs mcgill university montreal canada references uupcb hal9k com t692p pkm tut msstate edu date may lines macsee zip on ftp cica indiana edu is supposed to read and write mac disks ve never tried it though good luck just tried it but can say that it works cause it doesn read disks it only reads mb if there program that does read disks please let me know xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc alt fan bill gates newsgroups comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc alt fan bill gates path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet olivea pagesat news cerf net crash tfinn from tfinn crash cts com aaron grier subject re challenge to microsoft supporters organization cts network services crash ctsnet el cajon ca date may pdt message id may16 crash references may14 samba oit unc edu c71c1k yk news rich bnr ca lines in article c71c1k yk news rich bnr ca bjgrier bnr ca brian grier writes think most of the people posting are forgetting that most users of ms products do not even know about internet and unix is that very unfriendly place where bizzare abreviations replace the rather comfortable abreviations they know and the abreviations have subtle differences between the different vendors while pc users tend to customize any windowing setup they can not do much with their command line you can customize command line interface where have you been can change the prompt can make aliases so someone like me who is used to say ls can type it on my dos machine and still get directory listing and under unix if don like the command line interface throw it out and get different one csh bash ksh sh etc so to most of the computer users in the world ms product symbolize quality ms has made their life easier and more productive and to them that is quality they do not care about what innovative things ms has done other than to make their life with computer one heck of lot easier you may know better than most computer users in this world but that will not change their perception this is true face it until unix come up with decent gui that is available to all variations of unix it just will not catch on with the mainstream of computer users we here on the net are not mainstream computer users decent gui for all variations of unix lessee what about motif or the stuff from mit twm comes to mind those are pretty standard heck an xwindows program runs like it likes to all the end user has to really know is how to manipulate the actual windows with the mouse and since it is gui it graphical and bit easier to figure out something the windows people have been pressing down our throats for some time now the thing fear is that there will be gap between the normal users running windows all flavors and the other power users running unix and other more advanced oses at least right now dos is still pretty much king can bring copy of my latest whiz bang programming demo over to my friends house and since we both run dos he can enjoy it too agrier gompers gompers edu or tfinn crash cts com preferred path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu uunet munnari oz au ariel ucs unimelb edu au werple apana org au brimbank nick from nick brimbank apana org au nick langmaid newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject re creating batch file from windows nt message id djg9rajdbh107h brimbank apana org au date sun may references sasswb k2 sasswb k2 organization apana melbourne lines in sasswb k2 sasswb unx sas com scott bass writes saw another post on this list the subject was something like is vi available for windows in which someone said that vi make awk and ksh was available with microsoft toolkit what is that product is it separate product or part of windows ksh would do what need if could count on it at all nt sites imagine that was the mks toolkit from mortice kern systems another third party add in and good one too nick langmaid nick brimbank apana org au melbourne australia path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu uunet munnari oz au metro sequoia ultima kralizec zeta org au kralizec zeta org au not for mail from stevenm kralizec zeta org au steven murray newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject do we need sdk as well as ddk date may organization kralizec dialup unix sydney bis lines message id t2ul3inn7a9 kralizec zeta org au nntp posting host kralizec zeta org au summary do we need sdk as well as ddk keywords sdk windows the microsoft windows device driver kit ddk documentation blurb states that the user must separately acquire the microsoft windows software development kit sdk which contains the windows tools to build the drivers if we are using borland with application frameworks is this necessary we also have copy of the microsoft press programmer reference library books which normally comes with the sdk and microsoft macro assembler why is the sdk neccessary for development of virtual device drivers steven murray posted on behalf of brian davies xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net ira uka de news dfn de mailgzrz tu berlin de news netmbx de germany eu net mcsun uknet edcastle festival leeds ac uk news from csympc scs leeds ac uk conmy newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc subject re re re challenge to microsoft supporters message id may16 gps leeds ac uk date may gmt references may93 vax clarku edu twalls vo ncc1701d demon co uk c716uq ii3 feenix metronet com sender nntp gps leeds ac uk organization the university of leeds school of computer studies lines originator csympc csgi45 in article c716uq ii3 feenix metronet com jack feenix metronet com jack hudler writes in article twalls vo ncc1701d demon co uk twalls ncc1701d demon co uk tim walls writes but don want to have to run blasted windows every time want to delete tree it is absolutely ludicrous to load hog like that just to delete some files it would be like requiring crane to change the tyre on car then why don you download som of the public domain utilitys the do exactly what you want an shut up why should he have to this sort of thing should be included how about the millions of people who don have access to pd libraries over networks just because people can work around it doesn mean that something shouldn be done to remedy the situation mark path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net wupost uunet andromeda rutgers edu detrolio from detrolio andromeda rutgers edu david de trolio newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject stop message received running windows application menu keywords windows application menu message id may andromeda rutgers edu date may gmt organization rutgers univ new brunswick lines am running windows on sx mhz with five megs of memory the motherboard came with one meg and added the four megs this past weekend they were x9 simms had installed in the application menu ms dos command park up till today it parked the disk from the application menu without any problem when attempting to park the heads today received the following message stop this application has violated system integrity due to an invalid general protection fault and will be terminated what does this message mean thanks david de trolio detrolio andromeda rutgers edu we in the united states can have increased revenue without punishing or penalizing those who have obtained personal and economic achievements path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu geraldo cc utexas edu tramp cc utexas edu not for mail from condor tramp cc utexas edu george kontoravdis newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject problem with winqvt net and dos date may organization the university of texas austin lines distribution world message id t6rsh bed tramp cc utexas edu nntp posting host tramp cc utexas edu have been using winqvt net under win3 dos for quite sometime without any problem recently installed dos on my pc and cannot run winqvt net any more keep getting packet received for invalid port reset sent messages on the console window can get more than telnet window and can use ftp any suggestions would be greatly appreciated thanks george kontoravdis condor ccwf cc utexas edu newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet mnemosyne cs du edu nyx bwise from bwise nyx cs du edu brandon wise subject anyone heard of deltree message id may17 mnemosyne cs du edu sender usenet mnemosyne cs du edu netnews admin account organization nyx public access unix of denver math cs dept some poor ms windows user was on here whining about having to distribution na date mon may gmt lines brandon wise bwise nyx cs du edu xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net wupost csus edu netcom com gurgle from gurgle netcom com pete gontier subject re challenge to microsoft supporters message id gurglec75hog j1 netcom com organization cellular references may14 samba oit unc edu may16 gps leeds ac uk date mon may gmt lines as long as we re bashing typography csympc scs leeds ac uk conmy writes unix is case dependent yes unix is case dependent pete gontier ec technology gurgle netcom com microsoft windows like putting lipstick on chicken newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet munnari oz au ariel ucs unimelb edu au kowari cpsg com au tim from tim kowari cpsg com au timothy fox subject re hot key for screen saver message id tim wpylie kowari cpsg com au lines sender news kowari cpsg com au usenet news system nntp posting host wpylie cpsg com au organization computer power software group pty ltd references ssq6t qc usenet ins cwru edu castle ed ac uk sv27f pc3 sunb ocs mq edu au may15 seas gwu edu date mon may gmt louray seas gwu edu michael panayiotakis writes well renaming screensavers scr to exe and running them as has been pposted haven tried changing win ini but should have same effect shows me the setup dialog box butdoesn enable the saver mickey try exe for save screen for config defaults to the question is not if tree falls in the forest and no one sees or hears did it fall but rather how many koalas can that one tree take out tim cpsg com au tim fox cp software pty ltd acn ph cato street east hawthorn fax victoria australia acsnet tim cpsg com au the question is not if tree falls in the forest and no one sees or path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net agate ucsee berkeley edu miyamoto from miyamoto ucsee berkeley edu carleton miyamoto newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject re mac disks in windows date may gmt organization university of california berkeley lines message id t7529 agf agate berkeley edu references uupcb hal9k com t692p pkm tut msstate edu t6efv pj binkley cs mcgill ca nntp posting host ucsee berkeley edu in article t6efv pj binkley cs mcgill ca gel binkley cs mcgill ca gilles khouzam writes macsee zip on ftp cica indiana edu is supposed to read and write mac disks ve never tried it though good luck just tried it but can say that it works cause it doesn read disks it only reads mb if there program that does read disks please let me know not sure that this is possible due to the way the mac writes the disk think the way the sectors are set up are different enough that pc can read it this is hardware problem which software cannot correct hope this helps and correct me if wrong xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet microsoft hexnut davidst from davidst microsoft com david steckler subject re re re challenge to microsoft supporters message id may17 microsoft com date may gmt organization microsoft corporation references twalls vo ncc1701d demon co uk c716uq ii3 feenix metronet com may16 gps leeds ac uk lines in article may16 gps leeds ac uk csympc scs leeds ac uk conmy writes in article c716uq ii3 feenix metronet com jack feenix metronet com jack hudler writes in article twalls vo ncc1701d demon co uk twalls ncc1701d demon co uk tim walls writes but don want to have to run blasted windows every time want to delete tree it is absolutely ludicrous to load hog like that just to delete some files it would be like requiring crane to change the tyre on car then why don you download som of the public domain utilitys the do exactly what you want an shut up why should he have to this sort of thing should be included how about the millions of people who don have access to pd libraries over networks just because people can work around it doesn mean that something shouldn be done to remedy the situation these are perfectly valid points and agree glad we ms are starting to remedy this situation with dos and it will get better in future releases you do need to be aware of some history however in the mid late ms point of view was that os was going to take over the world and dos would be phased out as such resources for dos and windows for that matter development were mostly redirected to os the theory was to keep just enough resources on dos to support people until they started using os so utilities and such for dos fell by the wayside then windows hit the market os flopped at least seems to be doing little better but its future is still cloudy and people either stayed with their dos and apps or moved to windows about that point in time ms made its decision to drop os for dos windows in the short term and windows nt in the long term dos much improved over dos and was the first result of ms refocussing on dos and windows version takes things somewhat further and suspect future versions will offer even more in terms of real os features work on nt and have no real clue about what my coworkers over in dosland are doing but do know that there are heck of lot more of them than there were few years ago dave of course these are my opinions if you want ms opinions as pr person xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os ms windows apps comp os ms windows misc newsgroups comp os ms windows apps comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu sol ctr columbia edu news columbia edu cunixb cc columbia edu pbp1 from pbp1 cunixb cc columbia edu peter palij subject w4w tables and hplj ii printer message id may17 news columbia edu followup to comp os ms windows apps comp os ms windows misc sender usenet news columbia edu the network news nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu organization columbia university date mon may gmt lines after setting up very large pages table in word for windows asked word to print it to my hp laserjet ii worked fine at first after much editing of the table contents but not structure output requests now kick the lj into manual feed mode for the document containing the table other documents without tables print correctly where should look and what should change to get the document with the long table to use the paper drawer rather than kick into manual feed mode believe ve tried all the obvious printer manager changes as well as replacing the hppcl lp files with archived versions thanks for any and all help peter peter palij internet pbp1 columbia edu columbia university graduate school of business uris hall new york ny xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os ms windows apps comp os ms windows misc newsgroups comp os ms windows apps comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech destroyer cs ubc ca fornax chapman from chapman cs sfu ca john chapman subject tiff file viewer needed message id may17 cs sfu ca organization css simon fraser university burnaby canada date mon may gmt lines hello am in need of file viewer for bit tiff images to run under windows if it matters alternatively package to run an server on top of windows would do very well unfortunately the budget for this is limited so whatever end up using has to be public domain or very inexpensive thanks in advance for any help john chapman cs sfu ca xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os ms windows apps comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov news aero org kasper from kasper aero org brian kasper newsgroups comp os ms windows apps comp os ms windows misc subject re tiff file viewer needed date may gmt organization the aerospace corporation el segundo ca lines message id t7c6binng77 news aero org references may17 cs sfu ca nntp posting host aerospace aero org in article may17 cs sfu ca chapman cs sfu ca john chapman writes hello am in need of file viewer for bit tiff images to run under windows if it matters alternatively package to run an server on top of windows would do very well unfortunately the budget for this is limited so whatever end up using has to be public domain or very inexpensive thanks in advance for any help john chapman cs sfu ca paintshop pro for windows is fantastic product it can handle tiff gif bmp pcx and many other formats displaying them and converting between them there is shareware version of the program assume it available in the windows areas of the standard anonymous ftp locations try ftp cica indiana edu log in as ftp use your username as password and look for program called psp101 exe or something like that have the registered version and the only major difference can detect is that the unregistered version pops up message when you start the program asking you to please register it once again fantastic software up to bits huge images everything brian brian kasper aka prisoner my hovercraft is full of eels the aerospace corporation internet kasper aerospace aero org path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net wupost gumby destroyer cs ubc ca unixg ubc ca swiss ucs ubc ca ferch from ferch ucs ubc ca les ferch newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject re mac disks in windows date may gmt organization the university of british columbia lines message id ferch swiss ucs ubc ca references uupcb hal9k com t692p pkm tut msstate edu t6efv pj binkley cs mcgill ca t7529 agf agate berkeley edu nntp posting host swiss ucs ubc ca in t7529 agf agate berkeley edu miyamoto ucsee berkeley edu carleton miyamoto writes in article t6efv pj binkley cs mcgill ca gel binkley cs mcgill ca gilles khouzam writes macsee zip on ftp cica indiana edu is supposed to read and write mac disks ve never tried it though good luck just tried it but can say that it works cause it doesn read disks it only reads mb if there program that does read disks please let me know not sure that this is possible due to the way the mac writes the disk think the way the sectors are set up are different enough that pc can read it this is hardware problem which software cannot correct hope this helps and correct me if wrong you re right you cannot read or write mac or apple ii disk or apple ii disk without extra hardware however mac mb disks can be read and written in pc hd drive with software only this should probably be added to every pc and mac faq file it sure gets asked enough newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen sol ctr columbia edu sol ctr columbia edu popineau from popineau prunel ese metz fr fabrice popineau subject chameleon nfs ne2100 card message id popineau may17092959 prunel ese metz fr sender nobody ctr columbia edu organization ecole superieure electricite etablissement de metz france date mon may gmt posted from prunel ese metz fr nntp posting host sol ctr columbia edu lines hi got ne2100 compatible ethernet card and just received my copy of chameleon nfs unfortunately it is not compatible with the ne2100 only ne2000 or ne1000 what is the latest version number for chameleon nfs did soemone tackle this problem thanks for help popineau mail popineau ese metz fr popineau loria fr voice mail surface mail ecole superieure electricite rue edouard belin metz cedex france xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net agate ucbvax cgl cgl ucsf edu hatton from hatton socrates ucsf edu tom hatton newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc subject re challenge to microsoft supporters message id hatton cgl ucsf edu date may gmt references timbolc6wh1d hz netcom com may07 microsoft com may10 microsoft com c6vd0q e2s uceng uc edu may13 microsoft com c6ywjx prm hawnews watson ibm com sender news cgl ucsf edu usenet news system distribution usa organization ucsf computer graphics lab lines mike schleppo bocaraton ibm com mike dahmus writes in may13 microsoft com jimfr microsoft com jim francis writes note have been working for ms for the past years have been developer for the past os is technically superior to windows considering that ms makes more money per copy of os sold than ibm and we co wrote most of it differences between os and os os had about half the memory requirements os was quicker even at half the memory os was much more stable oh and one more thing ibm did os by themselves yes lot of what os has in common with os was written by you guys however many of the things that made os so much more successful win os workplace shell than previous versions were ibm work so we co wrote it may be technically accurate but it really red herring as the bits that are selling the product weren written by you don forget seamless win apps on os ms couldn do it viz wlo but ibm managed to do it right tom hatton hatton cgl ucsf edu xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net agate ucbvax cgl cgl ucsf edu hatton from hatton socrates ucsf edu tom hatton newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc subject re challenge to microsoft supporters message id hatton cgl ucsf edu date may gmt references c6ywjx prm hawnews watson ibm com may13 rzu news unizh ch sender news cgl ucsf edu usenet news system distribution usa organization ucsf computer graphics lab lines win os is ibm work you make me laugh re writing couple of thousands lines of code to make windows compatible with your dpmi implementation does not make the rest of windows ibm work don think ms has anything to brag about when it comes to following dpmi but then consistency is the hobgoblin etc suppose tom hatton hatton cgl ucsf edu newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet mcsun news funet fi news cs tut fi pk64380 from pk64380 kaarne cs tut fi kuusisto pasi petri sig subject re hot key for switching to the program manager message id may17 news cs tut fi originator pk64380 kaarne cs tut fi sender usenet news cs tut fi kotilo news system nntp posting host kaarne cs tut fi reply to pk64380 kaarne cs tut fi organization tampere university of technology dep of computer science references may15 lth se date mon may gmt lines from article may15 lth se by knut tts lth se ake knutsson in win one may assign hot keys for the program items within the program manager how about the program manager itself is there one already or is there some way to assign one put progman with the hotkey in your startup group should do it zi xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel wupost cs utexas edu uunet microsoft hexnut cliffga from cliffga microsoft com clifford garrett subject re re challenge to microsoft supporters message id may17 microsoft com date may gmt organization microsoft corp references c6ywjx prm hawnews watson ibm com timbolc6wh1d hz netcom com may07 microsoft com may10 microsoft com c6vd0q e2s uceng uc edu may13 microsoft com distribution usa lines yes lot of what os has in common with os was written by you guys however many of the things that made os so much more successful win os workplace shell than previous versions were ibm work yes certainly it was ibm that wrote the windows code path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet destroyer cs ubc ca unixg ubc ca unixg ubc ca kchu from kchu unixg ubc ca yep that me newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject help with scan date may gmt organization the university of british columbia lines message id kchu unixg ubc ca nntp posting host unixg ubc ca can somebody help me out of this just installed the version of mcafree anti virus program and when tried to scan the entire hard disk got the message of sorry can open xxxx for couple of files including the wscan104 exe this didn happen before in previous version nor appear on my friend machine thankx path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net howland reston ans net ira uka de scsing switch ch unine ch ifchristian from christian robert etudiants unine ch newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject windows exit problem message id may17 unine ch date may met organization university of neuchatel switzerland lines hello have problem with my window program sometimes when save settings of program manager the system corrupt one or more grp files and progman exe can open it on next start thanks for any answer chrobert xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os ms windows misc soc culture celtic comp fonts path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel wupost uunet mcsun ieunet ieunet vms eurokom ie ctwomey from ctwomey vms eurokom ie newsgroups comp os ms windows misc soc culture celtic comp fonts subject old irish gaelic truetype font synopsis of replies message id may17 vms eurokom ie date may cet organization eurokom conferencing service lines re irish gaelic truetype font wanted synopsis wrote can anyone tell me where can find an ms windows truetype font that will give me the characters used in writing irish gaelic in the old style for example in this font the letter would look something like with horizontal bar sitting on the top and the letter would look something like an with horizontal bar sitting on the top many thanks to those who responded to my question unfortunately have had no luck in actually getting such font and lot of people interested in geting one and so have decided to create my own truetype font fitting that description this font is based on that used in the issue of dineen dictionary and is typical of that found in irish books from the early part of the century this may take me some time to do in my limited spare time but ll make it available to anyone who is interested when it is ready the responses received are summerised below kevin donnelly caoimhin smo ac uk mentioned that michael everson everson irlearn ucd ie had developed some clo gaelach fonts for the macintosh and may be able to advise me contacted michael and he told me that he has three fonts available for the macintosh and that he will eventually port them to the pc but that he will be charging ir about for each one pbryant ukelele gcr com mentioned that he uses two font that have nice irish gaelic look to them these are durrow and american uncial normal don know where you can get these but don think that they have the effects am looking for finally rhiannon netcom com rhia mentioned that the meath font included in the casady greene fluent laser fonts package is very much like what was describing faxed casady greene for info but got no reply so that it ll post these newsgroups when make my font available colum twomey path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net ira uka de scsing switch ch unine ch ifchristian from christian robert etudiants unine ch newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject diamond windows conflict message id may17 unine ch date may met organization university of neuchatel switzerland lines hello have some problems with my diamond stealth local bus graphic card when try to start windows my system stop and display no free files handles cannot load command system halted it perhaps bios setup problem but not used to my ami bios setup if somebody can explain me how to setup shadow video rom others shadow rom and also how to config the two advenced setup for best utilisation of my graphic card thanks for any answer ch robert newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net agate headwall stanford edu nntp stanford edu elaine3 stanford edu siockman from siockman elaine3 stanford edu sam ockman subject best shareware rograms message id may17 leland stanford edu sender news leland stanford edu mr news organization dr herzl new zion club newsreader tin version pl8 date mon may gmt lines know that there is list of the best shareware and public domain programs for windows at the cica ftp site but unfortunately it is year old the list author made it sound like the list was going to be updated every month is it still being updated does anyone else compile similar list also are there any individual suggestions as to what the best shareware public domain programs are interested in good software in just about every category please try and include the ftp site and exact file name if possible in your post thanks sam siockman leland stanford edu it will be good david broza newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester news bbn com usc howland reston ans net torn watserv2 uwaterloo ca mach1 well5173 from well5173 mach1 wlu ca wells dana subject re anyone heard of deltree newsreader tin version pl6 references may17 mnemosyne cs du edu message id c75lmw b1e mach1 wlu ca organization wilfrid laurier university distribution na date mon may gmt lines it is the new command with dos that allows you to erase your directory and all the files in it without first erasing the individual files dana wells ba yes another male dana wilfrid laurier waterloo on urban geographers well5173 mach1 wlu ca plan it better path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net wupost uunet nestroy wu wien ac at dec6 wu wien ac at grimm from grimm dec6 wu wien ac at thomas grimm newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject wanted hypertext or alike for win3 date mon may met organization wu wien lines distribution world message id dec6 wu wien ac at nntp posting host dec6 wu wien ac at in fact looking for possibility to connect different peaces of information like in the windows help system and no don want to program such system by myself the necessary effort and afford should be as small as possible thanx in advance thomas newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet seas gwu edu louray from louray seas gwu edu michael panayiotakis subject re mac disks in windows message id may17 seas gwu edu sender news seas gwu edu organization george washington university references uupcb hal9k com t692p pkm tut msstate edu t6efv pj binkley cs mcgill ca date mon may gmt lines in article t6efv pj binkley cs mcgill ca gel binkley cs mcgill ca gilles khouzam writes macsee zip on ftp cica indiana edu is supposed to read and write mac disks ve never tried it though good luck just tried it but can say that it works cause it doesn read disks it only reads mb if there program that does read disks please let me know well you can say that it don work the inability to read mac disks is not sw problem rather it hardware limmitation on pcs have seen post about program able to read non mb mac disks which comes with watchamacalit ma memory faling card which you just drop into com port or something don remember specifics tho peace mickey xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net news feed peachnet edu concert duke news duke edu kdb from kdb sunbar mc duke edu kurt bollacker newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc subject re challenge to microsoft supporters message id news duke edu date may gmt references c71c1k yk news rich bnr ca sender news news duke edu followup to alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc lines nntp posting host dukebar mc duke edu newsreader tin version pl9 brian grier bjgrier bnr ca wrote so to most of the computer users in the world ms product symbolize quality ms has made their life easier and more productive and to them that is quality they do not care about what innovative things ms has done other than to make their life with computer one heck of lot easier you may know better than most computer users in this world but that will not change their perception none of this changes the fact that msw3 is objectively inferior to its competition have begun to learn in life that the masses never choose the best option available to them they choose the one which they have been conditioned to think is best glad not one of them kurt bollacker duke university medical center kdb sunbar mc duke edu durham nc xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu news cs indiana edu babbage ece uc edu uceng uc edu cicada occ uc edu bferrell from bferrell cicada occ uc edu brett ferrell subject re re challenge to microsoft supporters message id c76a5j kb uceng uc edu sender root uceng uc edu system privileged account nntp posting host cicada occ uc edu organization university of cincinnati references c6vd0q e2s uceng uc edu may13 microsoft com may17 microsoft com distribution usa date mon may gmt lines in article may17 microsoft com cliffga microsoft com clifford garrett writes yes lot of what os has in common with os was written by you guys however many of the things that made os so much more successful win os workplace shell than previous versions were ibm work yes certainly it was ibm that wrote the windows code isn this the point of better windows than windoze brett sherron ferrell email bferrell uceng uc edu of cincy catch the cats college of engineering if you can path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet munnari oz au ariel ucs unimelb edu au ucsvc ucs unimelb edu au lugb lucifer cleeve newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject word for windows problems message id may16 lugb latrobe edu au from cleeve lucifer latrobe edu au jason cleeve date sun may gmt sender news lugb latrobe edu au usenet news system organization la trobe university lines in trying to use the equation editor in word for windows get couple of error messages along the lines of can find font mt extra for default printer some characters my not be displayed or printed try installing equation editor again or reinstall new printer similar for the font fences know have these fonts on my system but are unable to use them have tried both of these solutions to no avail if anyone has had similar problems and has found way to fix this could they let me know it is urgently required thanks jason cleeve cleeve ieee org comp sci hons elect eng la trobe university australia email cleeve lucifer latrobe edu au jason cleeve cleeve ieee org comp sci hons elect eng la trobe university australia email cleeve lucifer latrobe edu au newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu malgudi oar net caen destroyer cs ubc ca unixg ubc ca kakwa ucs ualberta ca acs ucalgary ca powlesla from powlesla acs ucalgary ca jim powlesland subject re mac disks in windows message id may13 acs ucalgary ca date thu may gmt references uupcb hal9k com nntp posting host acs6 acs ucalgary ca organization the university of calgary alberta lines in article uupcb hal9k com scott lynn hal9k com scott lynn writes well do alot of graphic design work and am remaining loyal to dos windows instead of macs my college isn though and can only scan images on macintosh does anyone know of program that can read mac disks the apple file exchange on the nac that writes to dos disks probably leaves me visibly older during every session want to do the transfer in windows instead would appreciate any info want windows program but will gleefully settle for dos program called mac ette allows you to read mac high density disks on dos machine you can get the program from simtel not sure of the directory location jim powlesland internet powlesla acs ucalgary ca academic computing services voice university of calgary message calgary alberta canada t2n n4 fax xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net howland reston ans net wupost uunet pipex uknet pavo csi cam ac uk cam orl co uk thg from thg cam orl co uk tim glauert subject re challenge to microsoft supporters message id may17 infodev cam ac uk sender news infodev cam ac uk usenet news nntp posting host okra cam orl co uk organization olivetti research ltd cambridge england references c71c1k yk news rich bnr ca news duke edu date mon may gmt lines in article news duke edu kdb sunbar mc duke edu kurt bollacker writes none of this changes the fact that msw3 is objectively inferior to its competition do you mean that msw3 is objectively inferior in some respects which is trivially true that it is objectively inferior in all respecets which is trivially false or do you mean something else what criteria have you chosen for your objective assesment are you sure that these criteria are themselves objective have begun to learn in life that the masses never choose the best option available to them they choose the one which they have been conditioned to think is best glad not one of them no comment path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu sol ctr columbia edu news kei com enterpoop mit edu senator bedfellow mit edu athena mit edu dmsilev from dmsilev athena mit edu daniel silevitch newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject re word for windows problems date may gmt organization massachusetts institute of technology lines distribution world message id t8aurinnqt4 senator bedfellow mit edu references may16 lugb latrobe edu au nntp posting host w20 mit edu in article may16 lugb latrobe edu au cleeve lucifer latrobe edu au jason cleeve writes in trying to use the equation editor in word for windows get couple of error messages along the lines of can find font mt extra for default printer some characters my not be displayed or printed try installing equation editor again or reinstall new printer similar for the font fences know have these fonts on my system but are unable to use them have tried both of these solutions to no avail if anyone has had similar problems and has found way to fix this could they let me know it is urgently required thanks it back congratulations you ve just discovered very nasty and very frequently ecountered bug in the word setup program once you know what is wrong it is quite easy to fix go into the fonts dialog under control panel and select the two fonts mt extra and fences delete them but only delete the list entries not the disk files now select add and add the fonts mt extra plain and fences plain close the font box close control panel and restart word everything should be alright now does anyone know if microsoft has fixed this thing yet they have to know about it by now it been so frequently reported daniel silevitch dmsilev athena mit edu massachusetts institute of technology newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu cs uiuc edu sophocles cs uiuc edu ioerger from ioerger sophocles cs uiuc edu thomas ioerger subject logic of backup message id c76g9j pk cs uiuc edu sender news cs uiuc edu organization university of illinois dept of comp sci urbana il date mon may gmt lines have been backing up my hard drive ever since had to re install everything from scratch after crash learned the hard way didn am using windows based backup program actually norton and began wondering about the logic of this sure if accidentally delete file can get it from the archive but what if my disk crashes again would not be able to start windows to run the backup program note by crash mean there was some error message that prevented the machine from booting properly think gave up too early but didn have the time patience tools to figure out exactly what the problem was my hard drive needed cleaning up anyway yeah right this whole scenario is complicated by the fact that am using stacker so think there are possibilities right if my disk really crashes would at least have to re install dos and windows to get the backup program working wrong there is an easy way to make mirror of hard disk that can easily restore it state from scratch the polls are open tom ioerger univeristy of illinois cs grad student ioerger cs uiuc edu xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel wupost howland reston ans net newsserver jvnc net gmd de strobl from strobl gmd de wolfgang strobl subject re challenge to microsoft supporters message id strobl gmd de sender news gmd de usenet news nntp posting host gmdzi organization gmd sankt augustin germany references c71c1k yk news rich bnr ca news duke edu date mon may gmt lines in news duke edu kdb sunbar mc duke edu kurt bollacker writes brian grier bjgrier bnr ca wrote so to most of the computer users in the world ms product symbolize quality ms has made their life easier and more productive and to them that is quality they do not care about what innovative things ms has done other than to make their life with computer one heck of lot easier you may know better than most computer users in this world but that will not change their perception none of this changes the fact that msw3 is objectively inferior to its competition this is indeed true prefer windows nt it is certainly much better than microsoft windows dos wolfgang strobl wolfgang strobl gmd de gmd gesellschaft fuer mathematik und datenverarbeitung mbh schloss birlinghoven box include sankt augustin germany std disclaimer hpp xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel wupost cs utexas edu utnut torn nott bnrgate bnr co uk uknet mcsun sun4nl rulway leidenuniv nl news wi leidenuniv nl stpc199 wi leidenuniv nl mekenkamp from mekenkamp stpc wi leidenuniv nl leo mekenkamp subject re challenge to microsoft supporters message id mekenkamp stpc wi leidenuniv nl lines sender news wi leidenuniv nl organization department of mathematics and computer science university of leiden references c71c1k yk news rich bnr ca news duke edu date mon may gmt brian grier bjgrier bnr ca wrote so to most of the computer users in the world ms product symbolize quality ms has made their life easier and more productive and to them that is quality they do not care about what innovative things ms has done other than to make their life with computer one heck of lot easier you may know better than most computer users in this world but that will not change their perception excuse me are you one of those people who enjoy working win come talk to house mate of mine and tell him how productive his life is when he encountered yet another sudden appearence of the dos prompt while cutting and pasting in win or an empty win screen without any tasks running esc brings up an empty list progman has done it again leo there klingons on the starboard bow leo mekenkamp scrape em off jim klikspaanweg lz leiden the netherlands mekenkamp stpc wi leidenuniv nl leo sthp wi leidenuniv nl path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net agate dog ee lbl gov network ucsd edu news cerf net crash filebank george marengo from george marengo filebank cts com george marengo newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject re head to head win and message id uupcb filebank cts com date may gmt distribution world organization the file bank bbs fallbrook ca reply to george marengo filebank cts com george marengo lines jg after this fall believe ibm no longer has any rights to jg view microsoft code after that the only way to maintain jg some sort of compatibility is to reverse engineer would jg you want to reverse engineer an ole2 application don they retain windows nt oem status if so that gives them nt source code and since windows is headed toward nt win32s win32c slmr the file bank bbs pcboard e10 usr hst ds nodes rime internet largest clipper file collection in the world newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov nntp server caltech edu draco macsch com portia si macsch com bnc from bnc portia si macsch com brian casey subject re mac disks in windows message id may17 draco macsch com sender usenet draco macsch com usenet poster organization the macneal schwendler corporation references t692p pkm tut msstate edu t6efv pj binkley cs mcgill ca may17 seas gwu edu date mon may gmt lines in article may17 seas gwu edu louray seas gwu edu michael panayiotakis writes in article t6efv pj binkley cs mcgill ca gel binkley cs mcgill ca gilles khouzam writes macsee zip on ftp cica indiana edu is supposed to read and write mac disks ve never tried it though good luck just tried it but can say that it works cause it doesn read disks it only reads mb if there program that does read disks please let me know well you can say that it don work the inability to read mac disks is not sw problem rather it hardware limmitation on pcs have seen post about program able to read non mb mac disks which comes with watchamacalit ma memory faling card which you just drop into com port or something don remember specifics tho peace mickey on all mb drives both mac and pc the disk spins at constant rpm on mac disk drives the spin rate of the disk is varied so that the tracks pass under the head at constant speed slower rotation for the outer tracks and faster rotation for the inner tracks pc needs special controller hardware to make this happen brian casey bnc macsch com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel wupost cs utexas edu tamsun tamu edu chensun2m sam4628 from sam4628 chensun2m tamu edu arglebargle iv newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject re logic of backup date may gmt organization dept of chemical engineering texas university lines distribution world message id t8i0l d4m tamsun tamu edu references c76g9j pk cs uiuc edu reply to sam4628 chensun2m tamu edu nntp posting host chensun2m tamu edu in the newer versions of norton backup for windows at least there is an emergency disk which will allow you to restore from tape without reinstalling dos windows understand it sort of cumbersome to use but not nearly as much as reinstalling everything steven mccluney better to remain silent and be sam4628 chensun2m tamu edu thought fool than to speak and remove all doubts can hardly speak for myself path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech concert balsam kepley from kepley photon phys unca edu brad kepley newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject re head to head win and os date may gmt organization university of north carolina at asheville lines message id t8fl2 ehs balsam unca edu references may16 samba oit unc edu nntp posting host photon phys unca edu in article may16 samba oit unc edu dil admin mhs unc edu dave laudicina writes question the next question is even if did want to run os and had this big monster machine to run it on is there diverse think you re deliberatly overstating the requirements for os considering that os is multi threaded true multitasking os and takes the place of dos and windows and more actually think the requirements for os are very reasoable also think that anyone using windows without megs of ram and megs of hard drive space is beating their head against wall those are also legitimate requirements for os in fact the requirements for windows and os are about equal the natural progress of things is for government to gain ground and for liberty to yield thomas jefferson brad kepley kepley photon phys unca edu voice days newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel wupost howland reston ans net torn nott bnrgate bnr co uk uknet pipex sunic liuida isy lysator liu se news lysator liu se pi92ae from pi92ae pt hk se andy subject re mac disks in windows in reply to gel binkley cs mcgill ca message of may message id pi92ae may17091758 epimetheus pt hk se sender news lysator liu se organization lysator acs at linkoping university references uupcb hal9k com t692p pkm tut msstate edu t6efv pj binkley cs mcgill ca date mon may gmt lines because of the technology apple uses with their disks ibm pc cant read them without special hardware disks work more alike ibm so we only can read disks on pc andy newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc sol ctr columbia edu news mtu edu msbendts from msbendts mtu edu michael scott bendtsen subject re head to head win and os message id may17 mtu edu organization michigan technological university newsreader tin pl4 references habl may16153324 castello vision auc dk date mon may gmt lines waiting for june first to roll around when can then get my hands on pc solaris unix for the intel chip know that there are many of other unix possibilities out there but this includes the wabi windows api binary interface think technology that wil run windows apps straight outta da box if this flies in enhanced mode then here another contender to look out for in the corporate education market too big and complex for the home front windows mac sys7 will take those while win4wkgrps nt os will fight it out for the small to mid businesses however once the powerpc becomes available especially in laptop notebook form then these will migrate into all markets the ability to connect up to unix machine at work and yet still run windows mac apps at home is going to be real attractive to alot of people just my predictions mike mike bendtsen msbendts mtu edu elm st apt ccli senior technical consultant hancock mi michigan technological university newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet walter qualcom qualcomm com qualcom tfiske from tfiske qualcom qualcomm com fiske subject re mac disks in windows message id tfiske qualcom sender news qualcomm com nntp posting host qualcom qualcomm com organization qualcomm inc san diego ca references uupcb hal9k com t692p pkm tut msstate edu t6efv pj binkley cs mcgill ca t7529 agf agate berkeley edu ferch swiss ucs ubc ca date mon may gmt lines you re right you cannot read or write mac or apple ii disk or apple ii disk without extra hardware however mac mb disks can be read and written in pc hd drive with software only this should probably be added to every pc and mac faq file it sure gets asked enough agree that this should be added to some sort of faq list but we have strayed from the original topic our computer environment is pretty split between mac and pc am lucky and get to have both on my desk but there are people who have pc and need to share data with the mac users here the mac users have no problems because of package called dos mounter which automatically lets the mac read dos disks natively for the pc there is no equivilant that know of both mac ette and macsee have been inconsistant under the dos platform and requires you to perform the activity in dos program to selectively transport the files the question originally posed was if there is such program that hooks into windows like dll that will interpret the reading of mac disk when it is in pc and allow access to it through the standard file dialogs it is quite clear that this would only be available for the mb flopies fiske tfiske qualcomm com newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu utah morgan hellgate utah edu lanl ilmen hutch from hutch bellman lanl gov john hutchinson subject strange windows problem message id may17 newshost lanl gov sender news newshost lanl gov reply to hutch bellman lanl gov organization los alamos national laboratory date mon may gmt lines my windows installation has somehow gone awry whenever try to run windows now the logo comes up ok but when it tries to enter windows itself the screen gets totally screwed up as if it in the wrong graphics mode or something it completely illegible although functional as can still exit to dos with an alt return combination tried to reinstall windows again but if you recall halfway through the installation process install takes you into windows and there my graphics problem surfaces again so cannot complete the re installation all this started after trying to get game working on my system but my config sys and autoexec bat have been restored to what they were before this problem cropped up running dx with diamond stealth vram ve resinstalled the stealth video drivers again but with no luck also using qemm and stacker but windows is installed on an un stacked partition and of course it worked perfectly before any email replies and suggestions would be appreciated thanks hutch newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov ames pacbell com malodah from malodah srv pacbell com martin lodahl subject re logic of backup message id may17 pacbell com sender news pacbell com pacific bell netnews organization pacific bell references c76g9j pk cs uiuc edu date mon may gmt lines in article c76g9j pk cs uiuc edu ioerger sophocles cs uiuc edu thomas ioerger writes so think there are possibilities right if my disk really crashes would at least have to re install dos and windows to get the backup program working using the software you re using agree with you there what did installed dos windows and cpbackup functionally the same as your norton for the purposes of this discussion and used the dos backup command on just that much to restore boot to the system diskette and use dos restore to read in that much then boot to windows and restore my full backups using cpb norton in your case overwriting what ve just restored that allows me to keep this skeletal windows essentially unchanged with all my customization on the real copy done using the rd party backup utility wrong there is an easy way to make mirror of hard disk that can easily restore it state from scratch seems possible if you can put skeletal versions of dos and your backup utility on system floppy then you could restore it all on one go martin lodahl systems analyst capacity planning pacific bell malodah pacbell com sacramento ca usa if it good for ancient druids runnin nekkid through the wuids drinkin strange fermented fluids it good enough for me unk xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen malgudi oar net zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu news cs indiana edu babbage ece uc edu uceng uc edu moth occ uc edu bferrell from bferrell moth occ uc edu brett ferrell subject re challenge to microsoft supporters message id c76nqv k62 uceng uc edu sender root uceng uc edu system privileged account nntp posting host moth occ uc edu organization university of cincinnati references c71c1k yk news rich bnr ca news duke edu strobl gmd de date mon may gmt lines in article strobl gmd de strobl gmd de wolfgang strobl writes in news duke edu kdb sunbar mc duke edu kurt bollacker writes none of this changes the fact that msw3 is objectively inferior to its competition this is indeed true prefer windows nt it is certainly much better than microsoft windows dos please apples to apples nt is beta and as such cannot be accepted as competitor to win3 it not on the market same for os for couple or weeks wolfgang strobl wolfgang strobl gmd de btw cute sig brett sherron ferrell email bferrell uceng uc edu of cincy catch the cats college of engineering if you can path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester galileo cc rochester edu ub zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com decwrl decwrl concert balsam kepley from kepley photon phys unca edu brad kepley newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject re head to head win and os date may gmt organization university of north carolina at asheville lines message id t8nvf era balsam unca edu references habl may16153324 castello vision auc dk may17 mtu edu nntp posting host photon phys unca edu in article may17 mtu edu msbendts mtu edu michael scott bendtsen writes waiting for june first to roll around when can then get my hands on pc solaris unix for the intel chip know that there are many of other unix possibilities out there but this includes the wabi windows api binary interface think technology that wil run windows apps straight outta da box it will certainly help to be able to run windows and dos apps but the only way that solaris or os or any other scheme is going to challenge microsoft is if they can somehow get the prices for solaris or os or whatever apps down to dos competitive level everybody would rather run solaris app on solaris system and an os app on an os system they usually just can afford unix system because of the high prices for good unix software the natural progress of things is for government to gain ground and for liberty to yield thomas jefferson brad kepley kepley photon phys unca edu voice days xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc newsgroups comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester galileo cc rochester edu ub zaphod mps ohio state edu sol ctr columbia edu usenet ucs indiana edu silver ucs indiana edu ntaib from ntaib silver ucs indiana edu iskandar taib subject re challenge to microsoft supporters message id c76s2m ku2 usenet ucs indiana edu followup to comp os ms windows advocacy sender news usenet ucs indiana edu usenet news system nntp posting host silver ucs indiana edu reply to comp os ms windows advocacy organization indiana university references c71c1k yk news rich bnr ca news duke edu mekenkamp stpc wi leidenuniv nl date mon may gmt lines in article mekenkamp stpc wi leidenuniv nl mekenkamp stpc wi leidenuniv nl leo mekenkamp writes excuse me are you one of those people who enjoy working win come talk to house mate of mine and tell him how productive his life is when he encountered yet another sudden appearence of the dos prompt while cutting and pasting in win or an empty win screen without any tasks running esc brings up an empty list progman has done it again sigh don know what your roomate is doing but it must be something wrong are there people who enjoy using windows yes ll admit to it given choice between mac and windows choose windows every time to start another flame thread iskandar taib the only thing worse than peach ala internet ntaib silver ucs indiana edu frog is frog ala peach bitnet ntaib iubacs xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen uwm edu cs utexas edu uunet walter qualcom qualcomm com happy rdippold from rdippold qualcomm com ron asbestos dippold subject re challenge to microsoft supporters message id rdippold happy originator rdippold happy qualcomm com sender news qualcomm com nntp posting host happy qualcomm com organization qualcomm inc san diego ca references twalls vo ncc1701d demon co uk c716uq ii3 feenix metronet com may14 klaava helsinki fi c73mmy hhk feenix metronet com date mon may gmt lines jack feenix metronet com jack hudler writes it called the free enterprize system suggests that those who wish to enhance dos do it an sell it or give it away microsoft can be everything to everyone period it has been done but the other companies don have the marketing budgets that ms do dos for instance is everything that command com should have been but never could be under ms those who use it usually find it more addictive than crack cocaine but they have to rely on word of mouth for sales it seems to have worked pretty good so far but your corporate weenie manager type usually likes to see big glossy ad in pc magazine that okay marketing isn fundamental human right but they ve got product that superior to the dos command interpreter in every way they have lot more to be proud of than ms does if ms really gave damn they could duplicate it buy it outright they ve got the money or even use the old ruse of sending engineers out to help them with compatability issues and absconding with the technology dos is mediocre product at cheap price backed up by top notch marketing and vendor agreements the mediocre was excusable in the early days when it was someone else hack but they ve had ten years to play with it an interesting thought on that most ms products that aware of in the last few years allow you to access the names of the designers and programmers through easter egg screens including windows or at least have the names buried in the files is there such thing in dos and or are they too ashamed to have their names on it there at least one fool in every married couple path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet digex com access wild from wild access digex net wildstrom newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject re mac disks in windows date may organization express access online communications greenbelt md usa lines message id wild access references uupcb hal9k com t692p pkm tut msstate edu t6efv pj binkley cs mcgill ca nntp posting host access digex net gel binkley cs mcgill ca gilles khouzam writes macsee zip on ftp cica indiana edu is supposed to read and write mac disks ve never tried it though good luck just tried it but can say that it works cause it doesn read disks it only reads mb if there program that does read disks please let me know the easiest way to do this is if you can send the files accross the network this is much easier going from mac to pc because you don have to worry about losing the resource fork of the file often problem when sending binary files from pc to mac xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net europa eng gtefsd com news ans net newsgate watson ibm com hawnews watson ibm com news from mike schleppo bocaraton ibm com mike dahmus subject re re challenge to microsoft supporters sender news hawnews watson ibm com nntp news poster message id c76u3h alp hawnews watson ibm com date mon may gmt distribution usa news software ibm os pm rn nr v0 by vishnepolsky and rogers lines reply to miked vnet ibm com mike dahmus disclaimer this posting represents the poster views not necessarily those of ibm references c6ywjx prm hawnews watson ibm com timbolc6wh1d hz netcom com may07 microsoft com may10 microsoft com c6vd0q e2s uceng uc edu may13 microsoft com may17 microsoft nntp posting host schleppo bocaraton ibm com organization penpm development psp ibm boca raton om in may17 microsoft com cliffga microsoft com clifford garrett writes yes lot of what os has in common with os was written by you guys however many of the things that made os so much more successful win os workplace shell than previous versions were ibm work yes certainly it was ibm that wrote the windows code cliff do you know the difference between windows and win os here helpful hint running windows under os is only possible in real mode in dos box of course this is only possible with windows since windows no longer has real mode the ability to run standard mode the ability to have an os windows clipboard the ability to run seamless and few other things were all added by ibm to win os now everybody who is running windows in real mode in dos box under os raise your hand finally everybody who is running win os under os raise your hand get the picture cliff mike dahmus internet miked vnet ibm com vnet mdahmus at boca penpm development ibm ipnet mike schleppo bocaraton ibm com ibm personal systems disclaimer not an official ibm spokesman xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen sdd hp com network ucsd edu dialin1 extern ucsd edu mfischer from mfischer ucsd edu mike fischer newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc subject re challenge to microsoft supporters date mon may gmt organization university of california san diego lines message id mfischer ucsd edu references c71c1k yk news rich bnr ca news duke edu strobl gmd de nntp posting host dialin1 extern ucsd edu in article strobl gmd de strobl gmd de wolfgang strobl writes this is indeed true prefer windows nt it is certainly much better than microsoft windows dos how do you like it compared to os mike newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen sol ctr columbia edu news kei com news byu edu cwis isu edu mica nsf inel gov guinness gozer idbsu edu lhighley from lhighley gozer idbsu edu larry paul highley subject more info on windows help files message id may17 guinness idbsu edu sender usenet guinness idbsu edu usenet news mail nntp posting host gozer organization boise state university date mon may gmt lines here is the latest on relocating your help files to server the winhelp function as am told by ms does search your path so relocating ms windows helpfiles won be problem as long as you include the path to where you move them to however if an application has hardcoded the path into their code so that when winhelp is invoked it searches the given path winhelp hwnd amipro for example then winhelp does not search your path and instead looks only to that directory where you have installed your software tested this out on variety of software packages moved all my helpfiles to the drive and included this in the path statement here is the results for different software packages norton desktop found helpfiles windows v3 for workgroups found helpfiles windows v3 found helpfiles ms powerpoint v3 found helpfiles ms word found helpfiles ms excel v4 did not find helpfiles strange ms foxpro v2 for windows found helpfiles lotus amipro v3 did not find helpfiles procomm plus for windows did not find helpfiles guess this is better than nothing but it would make sense to be able to specify global path for helpfiles if anyone has any comments or if can help anyone or if left something out please let me know lhighley gozer idbsu edu thanks for the help from everyone especially jagrant emr1 emr ca more info on this topic as it develops xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net newsserver jvnc net yale edu yale actcnews sun1x news from tal michael wtm utrc utc com subject re challenge to microsoft supporters message id may17 sun1x res utc com sender wtm utrc utc com nntp posting host lestat organization utrc references c71c1k yk news rich bnr ca news duke edu mekenkamp stpc wi leidenuniv nl date mon may gmt lines in article mekenkamp stpc wi leidenuniv nl mekenkamp stpc wi leidenuniv nl leo mekenkamp writes brian grier bjgrier bnr ca wrote so to most of the computer users in the world ms product symbolize quality ms has made their life easier and more productive and to them that is quality they do not care about what innovative things ms has done other than to make their life with computer one heck of lot easier you may know better than most computer users in this world but that will not change their perception excuse me are you one of those people who enjoy working win come talk to house mate of mine and tell him how productive his life is when he encountered yet another sudden appearence of the dos prompt while cutting and pasting in win or an empty win screen without any tasks running esc brings up an empty list progman has done it again leo there klingons on the starboard bow leo mekenkamp scrape em off jim klikspaanweg lz leiden the netherlands mekenkamp stpc wi leidenuniv nl leo sthp wi leidenuniv nl been messin roun progman ini have ye gessing you ve been tuning the system that the only way can remember getting blank screen from ctrl esc when one of the progman ini parameters was twinked to or can remember ve never seen win do something like that on her own captain tal xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp unix misc comp os ms windows misc comp os os2 advocacy newsgroups comp unix misc comp os ms windows misc comp os os2 advocacy path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen saimiri primate wisc edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sol ctr columbia edu kozloid bwright from bwright msi com barton wright subject re some info the dos msw meltdown is progressing nicely message id may17 sol ctr columbia edu followup to comp unix misc comp os ms windows misc comp os os2 advocacy sender nobody ctr columbia edu reply to bwright msi com organization molecular simulations inc newsreader tin version pl8 references slt4v ro tamsun tamu edu date mon may gmt posted from kozloid msi com nntp posting host sol ctr columbia edu lines bruce dubbs bdubbs cs tamu edu wrote another comment at least you have ibm consultants trying to help ve never heard of microsoft sending customer engineers to client organization to help solve problems could be wrong but if they do its not common knowledge microsoft has division called microsoft consulting that does what ibm fes field engineers do however neither company just up and sends consultants to client sites both companies charge very high hourly rates for on site consulting unless the client has already paid an annual service contract barton wright molecular simulations inc voice bwright msi com burlington ma fax xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen uwm edu cs utexas edu uunet microsoft wingnut richs from richs microsoft com rick schaut subject re challenge to microsoft supporters message id may17 microsoft com date may gmt organization microsoft corporation references c6wzv1 cbc news rich bnr ca news duke edu reply to richs microsoft com rick schaut distribution usa lines in article news duke edu kdb sunbar mc duke edu kurt bollacker writes agree no one ever definitively met my challenge only batted around semantics oh well guess things did turn out as expected hmmm gave two examples which matched your objective criteria and your response was some subjective claptrap about them being lame you never did counter the fact that those examples fit your objective criteria one wonders who playing semantic games here rick schaut uucp uunet uw beaver microsoft richs microsoft doesn speak for me and don speak for microsoft xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os ms windows misc comp os ms windows apps path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu utnut torn nott bnrgate bnr co uk uknet mucs hancockd from hancockd p4 cs man ac uk david hancock newsgroups comp os ms windows misc comp os ms windows apps subject panasonic kp truetype what going on keywords poxy computer system message id may17 p4 cs man ac uk date may gmt sender news cs man ac uk followup to comp os ms windows misc organization dept computer science university of manchester lines have just added panasonic kp x1123 pin dot matrix printer to sx installed the appropriate windows printer driver one specifically for this printer but unable to persuade the poxy thing to print correctly what appears to be happening is that the truetype fonts don get printed properly my experiments show that all graphic images for example line drawing from corel draw print ok graphicsworkshop for windows happily prints gifs etc ms notepad and ms write will print correctly providing the font in the text are printer fonts when print truetype fonts some lines appear to be printed in the wrong order if change the text font to printer font the problem is eliminated have tried using printer drivers for printers which the kx p1123 snappy name emulates namely epsom lq and ibm proprinter x24 and the same problem occurs if there is some kind soul who can tell me just what the hell is going on would be most chuffed david xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc comp os ms windows apps path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu caen batcomputer eos acm rpi edu stlombo from stlombo eos acm rpi edu steve lombardi newsgroups comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc comp os ms windows apps subject please help an amiga user find comfort in windows date may gmt organization the voice of fate lines message id t9ada og0 fitz tc cornell edu nntp posting host eos acm rpi edu by night an amiga user by day work with windows be much more comfortable in windows if had two things good personal information manager you know calendar address book reminder list etc rolled into one clean interface good file manager microsofts is very poor by my standards how about one that has left and right window and allows file operations between them being able to launch programs from the same interface would be nice as well as text reading and graphics viewing those who are familiar with directory opus on the amiga know what looking for if anyone can steer me towards an ftp sight with these programs it would make my transition to windows lot easier please reply via email as rarely get to read this group thanks so much why would he be such jerk know that he doesn smoke steve lombardi drugs and he doesn do cocaine and he doesn shoot stlombo acm rpi edu smack and he doesn even drink beer why would he be such fu ker to me ween why would he be such jerk know that he doesn smoke steve lombardi drugs and he doesn do cocaine and he doesn shoot stlombo acm rpi edu smack and he doesn even drink beer why would he be xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os ms windows misc soc culture celtic comp fonts newsgroups comp os ms windows misc soc culture celtic comp fonts path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net europa eng gtefsd com emory news feed peachnet edu umn edu csus edu netcom com rhiannon from rhiannon netcom com rhia subject re old irish gaelic truetype font synopsis of replies message id rhiannonc776ut xr netcom com organization confuse cat ltd date tue may gmt lines ctwomey vms eurokom ie colum twomey comments finally rhiannon netcom com rhia mentioned that the meath font included in the casady greene fluent laser fonts package is very much like what was describing faxed casady greene for info but got no reply casady greene seems to be notoriously slow about responding as ve heard from others who have contacted them they may not reply via fax but via snail mail give them time or contact them again rhia let joy and innocence prevail from the movie toys xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc comp os ms windows apps newsgroups comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc comp os ms windows apps path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester galileo cc rochester edu ub news kei com sol ctr columbia edu usc cs utexas edu uunet world nectar from nectar world std com nectar nirvana subject re please help an amiga user find comfort in windows message id c7788u g3t world std com organization the world public access unix brookline ma references t9ada og0 fitz tc cornell edu date tue may gmt lines stlombo eos acm rpi edu steve lombardi writes by night an amiga user by day work with windows be much more comfortable in windows if had two things good personal information manager you know calendar address book reminder list etc rolled into one clean interface lotus organizer quick cheap pretty and has all of those features you want good file manager microsofts is very poor by my standards you might look at one of the shell alternatives provided by third parties norton desktop for windows for instance personally like file manager which comes with windows it much faster than ndw and the file manager that part of windows for workgroups even has decent button bar how about one that has left and right window and allows file operations between them being able to launch programs from the same interface would be nice as well as text reading and graphics viewing those who are familiar with directory opus on the amiga know what looking for that first you can do with file manager but the others you ll need to look at ndw or pc tools for windows etc if anyone can steer me towards an ftp sight with these programs it would make my transition to windows lot easier please reply via email as rarely get to read this group thanks so much haven yet seen decent freeware or even shareware shell but it may be just me nectar nirvana the absurd is the essential concept nectar world std com and the first truth camus xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os ms windows misc comp os msdos misc newsgroups comp os ms windows misc comp os msdos misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer munnari oz au metro usage jayas from jayas vast unsw edu au jayasooriah subject experiences with dos message id may18 usage csd unsw oz au summary microsoft botches it up sender news usage csd unsw oz au nntp posting host oyster vast unsw edu au organization university of new south wales kensington australia date tue may gmt lines have been having trouble posting this article from within tin for over week if you do get multiple copies my apologies here is challenge to microsoft or microsort supporters to defend the pathetic state of dos as an upgrade distribution it is long story but would make good reading for those who are interested in knowing the potential pitfalls of upgrading to dos that have been able to notice after only about week of playing around with it my envorinment ti travelmate winsx sx ram disk system bios version by texas instruments cl gd6420 vga bios a1 by cirrus logic quadtel advance power manager battery pro b6 by texas instruments smart drive cache win3 dos6 parameters windows benchmark winbench tm by zd labs after updgrading to dos could not understand why certain things became so slow especially after decided to try dblspace in the process of finding out why discovered some interesting things disk performance with double space and smart drive while most things did not appear to slow down most of the time certain applications appeared to run very much slower what was interesting is that commands like chkdsk and defrag were running far too slowly to consider them useful by any standards suspected double space ds and decided to measure its impact on my system using winbench tm the real disk winmark of for the original system as shipped from factory with dos and windowws became when upgraded to dos with ds thus there is an effective performance degradation of more than percent which did not really surprise me because knew that ds compression must cost something specifically for short sequential reads up to bytes ds actually improves transfer rates by about because cpu being faster than more cpu cycles needed for ds is more than compensated by savings in cycles however for all other cases particularly large random writes the transfers take up to three times as long while the performance depends on the type of access random or sequential small or large transfer units on the average based on winbench assumptions the disk slows down to half its speed the tests alone done in real mode see winbench and with smartdrv on do not say much except that it helps to put into those subjective statements like there is no noticable difference in performance or even that it will speed up disk access when you have fast cpu and slow disk this explained why some applications ran markedly slower but not why chkdsk and defrag the latter especially too so long double space and windows dblspace will not run at all from within windows not even if you wanted to only to get information not modify anything or for that matter even check on its usage try fasthelp dblspace in dos box within windows and you will see what mean from the error message you get how narrow minded can programer get wonder yes this information can be obtained through the mstools dd add on to file manager but this mstools dll does not understand compressed floppy use the dos supplement utility to create compressed floppy if you dont know how to dos defragmenter is incompatible with ti apm defragmentation seemed to take too much time even so waited patiently till it finished and then ran it again to just to confirm this confirmation dblspace def command for the drive should take no more than seconds much faster on other defragmenters have used but it took minutes discovered that if moved the mouse defragmentation checking ran faster the figure ticked more rapidly it dawned on me that this had to do with ti battery saver advanced power management apm module which slows the clock down when it thinks that the cpu is idle and it obviously thought ds defragmentation was an idle process after disabling the ti power saver this operation took only seconds microsft programmers think ti4000 and gateway nomad users are idiots in the readme txt file you can find the the following running microsoft backup with ti4000 and gateway nomad computers to avoid conflict between the turbo feature and microsoft backup for windows or ms dos add l0 switch to the device command in your config sys that loads the battery pro file or before you run microsoft backup type setpower l0 at the command prompt if you checked ti manual on the l0 option you will realise that it means disable all power saving features of your notebook why would anyone want to run driver disabled as have found out not only does ti power management interfere with microsoft backup as the readme txt claims but chkdsk and dblspace and who knows what else are crippled by the ti power saver it is obvious that there is not such thing as apm specifications if there indeed is such thing then either microsoft programmers or ti programmers dont know how to read these specifications you dont have to guess as to who are the idiots by the way if you run the advance power management utility power exe in dos6 when you check the status it says power management status setting adv max cpu idle of time this figure of seems to be the steady state value on my notebook when am running nothing windows with only program manager in iconised form does that mean that windows takes up of my cpu all for itself and that have at best only left for useful work is such an overhead justified whether or not windows is an operating system or just another user interface in dos alone it reports idle time looks like windows is good example of busy waiting type of package that like my students to study as the classical negative example of our times microsoft programmers do not know batch programming like to structure my startup script and thus have the equivalent of addpath statements like this set path dos set path etc bin path bin set path etc windows path windows set path path bcc bin set path path mouse even though the new dos was installed in the same directory as the old one dos dos installation program modifes each and every path statement and prepends dos to its value as result my resultant path has so many dos if the installation program wanted to remove the old dos path and add the new dos path clearly it has to only scan for the path statement containg the old dos directory and replace it by the new dos path even this should only be done if the new dos is installed in directory different from the old one being upgraded instead the microsoft programmer if you can call this person one decided to meddle every path statement had in the autoexec and prepend dos to the value wonder if microsoft is so desparate that it would not fire programmers who are incapable of the thought process started thread on this when dos came up and the microsoft representative in singapore called me about this poster in fact he specifically said his us counterparts saw the poster and relayed the information to him as he did not have access to internet now that has not changed one bit in fact if you have path statement with path already in it is it not obvious that the this statement should not be touched for any reason as another example of the inability of microsoft programmers to understand batch programming had the mouse driver invoked as set mouse etc mouse set path path mouse loadhigh mouse mouse com guess what memmaker did it replaced the last statement with lh etc mouse mouse com why is it so difficult just to replace loadhigh with lh and its parameters without touching the rest of the line do not understand dos software quality dos is the only operating system know in which under normal usage you end up creating file that you cannot get rid of using of the commands that come with it am deliberately being cryptic about this challenge microsoft to use all its programmers to catch this bug and publish it if they dont within week will post how you can create this ghost file surely if can pick this bug without even looking for it after using particular command only twice am sure two dozen microsoft idiot programmers randomly banging on their keyboards over week could find it that is what was told how microsoft tests the quality of their products think it is funny that microsoft has found ways to test quality when it is accepted in the industry that quality cannot be tested but can only be built into the product no wonder they cannot provide any form of guarantees on their products not even decent list of bugs that will prevent scores of user from destroying their disks beyond repair also if you run dblspace def often enough repeatedly when the disk is fully defragmented you may get errors that was created by the defragmenters got my io sys file size error and it got truncated when did the chkdsk this happend only after five successive defragmentation efforst after the first one supposedly did its job and with no new file creation since microsft dont you dare reply to this poster on the network until you admit that your ds has bugs and are willing to let us know what we should watch out for if we have already used ds jaya dr jayasooriah cse cs unsw sign in paris hotel box kensington nsw tel fax sports jacket may be worn to dinner internet jayas vast unsw edu au but not trousers dr jayasooriah cse cs unsw sign in norwegian cocktail lounge box kensington nsw ladies are requested tel fax not to have children internet jayas vast unsw edu au in the bar xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc comp os ms windows apps newsgroups comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc comp os ms windows apps path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester galileo cc rochester edu ub zaphod mps ohio state edu sol ctr columbia edu usenet ucs indiana edu silver ucs indiana edu ntaib from ntaib silver ucs indiana edu iskandar taib subject re please help an amiga user find comfort in windows message id c778o5 y2 usenet ucs indiana edu sender news usenet ucs indiana edu usenet news system nntp posting host silver ucs indiana edu organization indiana university references t9ada og0 fitz tc cornell edu date tue may gmt lines in article t9ada og0 fitz tc cornell edu stlombo eos acm rpi edu steve lombardi writes by night an amiga user by day work with windows be much more comfortable in windows if had two things good personal information manager you know calendar address book reminder list etc rolled into one clean interface prefer infoselect myself but it is strange kind of pim good file manager microsofts is very poor by my standards how about one that has left and right window and allows file operations between them being able to launch programs from the same interface would be nice as well as text reading and graphics viewing those who are familiar with directory opus on the amiga know what looking for well few things might help you like the file manager better to get more than one window simply double click on drive icon that it only gives you one window to work with is fallacy you can drag files between windows to any icon on the tree on the left side of the window and to any drive icon this beats your left and right window as you can have as many open as you wish instead of just two you can launch any app from within file manager by double clicking on the executable icon you can launch any application and open document file by double clicking on the document file icon provided you have associations set correctly this is easily done with the menus the browse capability adds lot of functionality to so if you name all your text files with txt and point all gif tiff etc files towards paintshop or wingif this takes care of your requirement for text reading and graphics viewing know someone who prefers using file manager as his shell setting up all the associations you need is the way to do it if directory opus is half as good as file manager then it must be pretty good indeed file manager just needs you to understand how some things are done iskandar taib the only thing worse than peach ala internet ntaib silver ucs indiana edu frog is frog ala peach bitnet ntaib iubacs path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen nigel msen com sdd hp com usc howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu news cs indiana edu bsu cs news nd edu mono rad nd edu mono from mono rad nd edu newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject biobliography program info needed please message id mono rad nd edu date may gmt sender news news nd edu usenet news system distribution world local organization radiation laboratory of notre dame lines think somebody posted some info about biobliography program one or two months ago don rember the detail what like to have is one software to organize the literature refereing for scientific publications the functions like would be able to do data base managment able to print with special formats for different journals any info would be appreciated yi ming wang radiation laboratory university of notre dame wang nd edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net gatech news feed peachnet edu emory ogicse netnews nwnet net news washington edu mead washington edu newsman from newsman mead washington edu christian ricci newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject re head to head win and os message id t9govinn7qo news washington edu date may gmt article news t9govinn7qo references habl may16153324 castello vision auc dk may17 mtu edu organization university of washington seattle lines nntp posting host mead washington edu forgive me if this is stupid but didn see rumor somewhere that apple was working on an intel platform os say like system for x86 chris newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu utnut utcsri newsflash concordia ca vax2 concordia ca xchen from xchen vax2 concordia ca chen xia subject how message id may199322025296 vax2 concordia ca news software vax vms vnews sender usenet newsflash concordia ca usenet news system nntp posting host vax2 concordia ca organization concordia university date tue may gmt lines newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu utnut utcsri newsflash concordia ca vax2 concordia ca xchen from xchen vax2 concordia ca chen xia subject how can install the printshop deluxe in windows with the norton desktop message id may199322062207 vax2 concordia ca news software vax vms vnews sender usenet newsflash concordia ca usenet news system nntp posting host vax2 concordia ca organization concordia university date tue may gmt lines path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc hacgate lyra root from root lyra scg hac com dave fisher newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject screen snapshot message id hacgate scg hac com date may gmt sender news hacgate scg hac com reply to fisher lyra hac com dave fisher organization hughes aircraft co carlsbad ca lines is there way can save snapshot of my screen to file under windows similar to the way one can press cmd shift on mac please email rather than posting thanks dave fisher fisher lyra hac com xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc comp os ms windows apps newsgroups comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc comp os ms windows apps path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester galileo cc rochester edu ub zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net xlink net rz uni karlsruhe de uni heidelberg homo mgen uni heidelberg de andreas from andreas sun0 urz uni heidelberg de andreas helke subject re please help an amiga user find comfort in windows message id andreas sun0 urz uni heidelberg de lines sender news sun0 urz uni heidelberg de netnews organization molekulare genetik universitaet heidelberg germany references t9ada og0 fitz tc cornell edu date tue may gmt in article t9ada og0 fitz tc cornell edu stlombo eos acm rpi edu steve lombardi writes from stlombo eos acm rpi edu steve lombardi subject please help an amiga user find comfort in windows date may gmt by night an amiga user by day work with windows be much more comfortable in windows if had two things good personal information manager you know calendar address book reminder list etc rolled into one clean interface good file manager microsofts is very poor by my standards how about one that has left and right window and allows file operations between them being able to launch programs from the same interface would be nice as well as text reading and graphics viewing those who are familiar with directory opus on the amiga know what looking for have written the file manager hfm wich has two windows which compare the files in two directorys to find out wether there are equal or similar files the most important operations copy move delete show the file start progam navigate in the directory tree can be invoked by dragging directory entry with the mouse this is very convenient because the selection of the file and the operation to be performed occur in one move for bitmap graphic viewing the program vpic can be integrated for spreadsheat and database files use the view program from pctools hfm can be configured to use arbitrary viewers to show special data formats it does also present archives from pkzip etc as simulated subdirectorys this filemanager has somewhat non standart user interface but it is very convienient to use and is the prefered file manager in several labs in our university the drawback of this filemanager is it still dos program and the development of windows version has not yet begun use the program package run18 zip where run tells its windows companion sched exe which windows program should be started in this way you can start windows program from dosbox the new version to be released soon includes new command for automating this windows program start ftp archives for the mentioned programs all these archives have several mirror sites simtel oak oakland edu filutl hfm318 zip gif vpic60e zip garbo garbo uwasa fi dirutil hfm318 zip cica ftp cica indiana edu util run18 zip andreas helke molekulare genetik universitaet heidelberg germany email un69ef genius embnet dkfz heidelberg de the header of this posting does not contain valid smtp mail address xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci med occupational sci med comp os ms windows misc newsgroups sci med occupational sci med comp os windows misc comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen uunet mdisea mothost dnbf01 bram cdx mot com dnbf01 jloong from jloong dnbf01 bram cdx mot com jackson loong subject looking for medical cliparts message id may17 dnbf01 bram cdx mot com followup to jloong dnbf01 bram cdx mot com keywords medical cliparts sender jloong dnbt01 bram cdx mot com jackson loong nntp posting host dnbt01 bram cdx mot com reply to jloong dnbf01 bram cdx mot com jackson loong organization motorola codex canada date mon may gmt lines my wife is physiotherapist and she is looking for some cliparts of skeleton and male female body we re currently using windows draw which can import all kind of graphic formats therefore anything will do please advise of the existance of any freeware or commerical source that we can turn to since don normally read this newsgroup please responds via mail thanks in advance jackson loong feeder networking engineering internet jloong dnbf01 bram cdx mot com motorola codex canada macintosh ljl004 email mot com matheson blvd voice x6681 mississauga ont l5r m1 fax disclaimer my opinions are my own not motorola newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net xlink net sol ctr columbia edu news kei com news oc com utacfd uta edu trsvax spudge johnm from johnm spudge lonestar org john munsch subject re ati avi drivers organization etc organization date tue may gmt message id c777zm spudge lonestar org references qfwynh200wb78rzvpv andrew cmu edu lines in article qfwynh200wb78rzvpv andrew cmu edu andrew houghton ah0i andrew cmu edu writes noticed ati had posted beta avi drivers for their mach32 boards on compuserve has anyone had the chance tgo try them how well do they work very well indeed at home vl bus version of the graphics pro can stretch an avi window to x480 and it will continue to play back smoothly it drops few more frames but on most machines even attempting such thing would mean one frame update every seconds an isa graphics was able to do zoom by without any perceptible performance penalty it is the best performance ve seen so far with the possible exception of an intel indeo board which uses overlay so it doesn have to move the decompressed data over the isa bus at any point john munsch newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu malgudi oar net hyperion wright edu stu1016 from stu1016 discover wright edu chris thompson subject font size for dos in window x600x256 message id c77hbc em hyperion wright edu sender news hyperion wright edu usenet news system nntp posting host discgate organization wright state university newsreader tin version pl8 date tue may gmt lines path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu asuvax ncar noao arizona amethyst organpipe uug arizona edu bigdog engr arizona edu ece from ece bigdog engr arizona edu the crazy diamond newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject winprinter real deal keywords winprinter from lasermaster corp message id may18 organpipe uug arizona edu date may gmt references snkspinn6qq escargot xx rmit oz au sender news organpipe uug arizona edu organization university of arizona lines hello netters recenlty aquired enough money to purchase laser printer the other day bought the computer shopper mag was looking through printer review section and noticed the winprinter800 the machine is incredibly low priced for all the features it has dpi meg ram postscript compatable envelope printing my question is does anyone have one of these or know why the price is so cheap would appricaiate it if someone would pass on their knowledge on this subject thanks alot dave donuts are girls best friend xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet microsoft hexnut cliffga from cliffga microsoft com clifford garrett subject re re challenge to microsoft supporters message id may18 microsoft com date may gmt organization microsoft corp references c76u3h alp hawnews watson ibm com c6ywjx prm hawnews watson ibm com timbolc6wh1d hz netcom com may07 microsoft com may10 microsoft com c6vd0q e2s uceng uc edu may13 microsoft com may17 microsoft distribution usa lines get the picture just find it humorous that running windows apps for is what makes os more credible cliff xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net darwin sura net news feed peachnet edu concert duke news duke edu kdb from kdb sunbar mc duke edu kurt bollacker newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc subject re challenge to microsoft supporters message id news duke edu date may gmt references may18 infodev cam ac uk sender news news duke edu followup to alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc lines nntp posting host bal1 mc duke edu newsreader tin version pl9 tim glauert thg cam orl co uk wrote in article news duke edu kdb teer13 acpub duke edu kurt bollacker writes tim glauert thg cam orl co uk wrote in article news duke edu kdb sunbar mc duke edu kurt bollacker writes none of this changes the fact that msw3 is objectively inferior to its competition do you mean that msw3 is objectively inferior in some respects which is trivially true that it is objectively inferior in all respecets which is trivially false or do you mean something else what criteria have you chosen for your objective assesment are you sure that these criteria are themselves objective believe that enough is inferior to make it overall as product inferior to its competition apple system os nextstep unix xwindows pick your favorite flavor in other words it is your opinion that msw3 is inferior to its competition that not the same as msw3 being objectively inferior no it is technically inferior to the os guis that listed have already described why to say briefly system easier to learn and use there have been independent studies to that effect os can run msw applications and has more stable multitasking nextstep easier to learn use and program more stable multitasking unix as easy to learn and use more stable multitasking with the prpoer setup all of these will exchange data with msw machines as well as msw machines will amongst themselves so interoperability is not an issue by this criterion it is inferior if you have another then perhaps am incorrect do you pick up the glove kurt bollacker duke university medical center kdb sunbar mc duke edu durham nc xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os ms windows apps comp os ms windows misc from chrisa hpwarr hp com chris almy date tue may gmt subject re winfax files in ascii format message id hpwala wal hp com organization none path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu swrinde sdd hp com apollo hp com cupnews0 cup hp com hpscit sc hp com hplextra hpcss01 hpwala hpwarr chrisa newsgroups comp os ms windows apps comp os ms windows misc references zhao may14123957 sparta nmsu edu sender netnews hpwala wal hp com reply to chrisa hpwarr hp com chris lines winfax pro provides you with ocr it is the ocr from omnipage although it is not as customizable it does the job and is auto matic if you want and much cheaper than the same package omni page professional sold separatly last time check winfax pro was only xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os msdos misc comp os ms windows misc comp os msdos apps path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net news centerline com uunet mcsun uknet yorkohm minster george from george minster york ac uk newsgroups comp os msdos misc comp os ms windows misc comp os msdos apps subject epson stylus message id minster york ac uk date may gmt organization department of computer science university of york england lines does anyone have any information or better first hand experience of the new epson bubblejet printer stylus particularly interested in hearing how well it works under windows presume that special printer driver is required is it supplied as standard is it able to print everything that standard postscript laserprinter could many thanks for any replies george george bolt dept of psychology univ of york uk path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net agate ames olivea grapevine lcs mit edu ai lab almond frost wslee from wslee almond frost ai mit edu whay sing lee newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject re challenge to microsoft supporters date may gmt organization mit artificial intelligence lab lines sender wslee almond frost whay sing lee distribution usa message id tbd5ninn1rn life ai mit edu references c6z06i uceng uc edu su19n transfer stratus com c76h13 zy fig citib com tasvi qu lll winken llnl gov nntp posting host almond frost ai mit edu in article tasvi qu lll winken llnl gov fuess writes for one like windows prior to had little use for it because of early problems since it is my preferred operating system nah if ms windows were an operating system so would be windows motif geoworks desqview the shareware win boss library and that what it name text based windowing system written in applesoft that ran on the old faithful apple ii note the similarity all of the above rely on some underlying real os imho they are windowing systems and just that some are cooler than others though whay newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net agate linus linus mitre org mwunix mitre org jcmorris from jcmorris mwunix mitre org joe morris subject re smartdrv and dblspace message id may18 linus mitre org sender news linus mitre org news service nntp posting host mwunix mitre org organization mitre corporation mclean va references rcaldrn epistat date tue may gmt lines in recent article rcaldrn med miami edu richard calderon writes just received gateway with windows and dos ran it few times with no apparent problems decided to give double space try after compressing the drive with no problems decided to load windows it took minute seconds to load after dblspace seconds before dblspace tinkered little with the machine and noticed an error message saying smartdrive cannot work with dblspace not unreasonable since the smartdrv packaged with dos is version make sure that all your drivers himem emm386 smartdrv are being executed from the dos directory loss of the cache provided by smartdrv could be your problem if not don know what might cause the startup delay my testbed for dblspace which has very minimal amount of data on the disk so that don eat up too much time as install and uninstall dblspace boots in about seconds from the starting ms dos herald to the end of the autoexec bat execution don have handy system with more realistic volume of data to time joe morris mitre xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu utnut torn nott bnrgate corpgate crchh327 bnr ca grier from grier bnr ca brian grier subject re challenge to microsoft supporters sender news news rich bnr ca news server message id c78lve jqe news rich bnr ca date tue may gmt references may18 infodev cam ac uk news duke edu nntp posting host organization bell northern research lines since started this twist of this thread kdb teer13 acpub duke edu kurt bollacker writes believe that enough is inferior to make it overall as product inferior to its competition apple system os nextstep unix xwindows pick your favorite flavor in other words it is your opinion that msw3 is inferior to its competition that not the same as msw3 being objectively inferior no it is technically inferior to the os guis that listed have already described why to say briefly actually you fell into the above because you said believe if you had used the rest of this post in your previous post do not think anyone would have agrued with you system easier to learn and use there have been independent studies to that effect os can run msw applications and has more stable multitasking nextstep easier to learn use and program more stable multitasking unix as easy to learn and use more stable multitasking the following three are not the competition for windows imho of course system does not currently run on intel boxes nextstep rather expensive should be competitor to windows nt not unix with the exception of os all of the above will require most users to spend very large sum of money to upgrade applications to ones that run under these os and basically money speaks louder than anything else you keep saying more stable multitasking is what you mean not multi finder gem geoworks co operative multi tasking but real honest to goodness prioritized pre emptive multi tasking with the prpoer setup all of these will exchange data with msw machines as well as msw machines will amongst themselves so interoperability is not an issue basically this is moot since most users have been able to share data for quite long time but are still to blind to know it by this criterion it is inferior if you have another then perhaps am incorrect do you pick up the glove why pick it up you stated the reasons behind your opinions stated them in very straight forward though over protective manner and aside from my earlier comments about who actually is competitor think we are in agreement does tim glauert agree let wait and see disclaimer the opinions expressed are mine not those of bnr brian ws1s st tt user developer if wanted computer to play games bell northern research on buy an amiga however have research triangle park nc real work to do so please get lost xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu utnut torn nott bnrgate bnr co uk uknet mcsun news funet fi hydra klaava lukka from lukka klaava helsinki fi tuomas lukka subject re challenge to microsoft supporters message id may18 klaava helsinki fi organization university of helsinki references may18 infodev cam ac uk news duke edu date tue may gmt lines in article news duke edu kdb sunbar mc duke edu kurt bollacker writes system easier to learn and use there have been independent studies to that effect os can run msw applications and has more stable multitasking nextstep easier to learn use and program more stable multitasking unix as easy to learn and use more stable multitasking also more customizable can make the computer do what want it to do whereas with msw have to do what microsoft wants me to do how do bind control left mousebutton to type hello world not that want to do that but tjl newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu uunet world paladin from paladin world std com thomas schlatter subject re smartdrv and dblspace message id c79abh fgk world std com organization the world public access unix brookline ma references rcaldrn epistat date wed may gmt lines in article rcaldrn epistat rcaldrn med miami edu richard calderon writes just received gateway with windows and dos ran it few times with no apparent problems decided to give double space try after compressing the drive with no problems decided to load windows it took minute seconds to load after dblspace seconds before dblspace tinkered little with the machine and noticed an error message saying smartdrive cannot work with dblspace the reason for the change from smartdrv exe included with windows to smartdrv exe included with dos is compatability with dblspace be sure you are running smartdrv from your dos directory path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen saimiri primate wisc edu zaphod mps ohio state edu menudo uh edu elroy uh edu st1pb from st1pb elroy uh edu burris dean newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject pctools for windows demo date may cdt organization university of houston lines distribution world message id may199323085474 elroy uh edu nntp posting host elroy uh edu news software vax vms vnews if someone has downloaded the pctools demo from compuserve please upload it to cica or other ftp site thanks dean st1pb elroy uh edu newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net torn nott emr1 jagrant from jagrant emr1 emr ca john grant subject re afterdark startrek out of memory message id may19 emr1 emr ca organization energy mines and resources ottawa references may18 informix com date wed may gmt lines in article may18 informix com jerry doodles informix com writes have the startrek version of afterdark running but it nearly always reports space out of memory which floats across the top of the screen what have not set correctly ve got of ram jerry you re right it doesn appear to working correctly it really should say space the last frontier across the top john grant jagrant emr1 emr ca airborne geophysics geological survey of canada ottawa xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester galileo cc rochester edu ub news kei com sol ctr columbia edu zaphod mps ohio state edu darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet olivea charnel rat zeus joule elee calpoly edu dly from dly joule elee calpoly edu dixon ly subject re challenge to microsoft supporters message id may19 zeus calpoly edu sender news zeus calpoly edu organization cal poly san luis obispo references may17 microsoft com news duke edu distribution usa date wed may gmt lines in article news duke edu kdb teer13 acpub duke edu kurt bollacker writes rick schaut richs microsoft com wrote in article news duke edu kdb sunbar mc duke edu kurt bollacker writes agree no one ever definitively met my challenge only batted around semantics oh well guess things did turn out as expected hmmm gave two examples which matched your objective criteria and your response was some subjective claptrap about them being lame you never did counter the fact that those examples fit your objective criteria repeat what are they you mentioned what you tried to present as innovative but what new concept was brought to market an efficient basic basic existed before and efficiency is not original either ole what new concept does that bring document oriented computing the mac had that before msw you simply haven made your point the burden of proof is upon you my exact challenge what new computing concept has ms brought to market first nothing more nothing less explain how your examples fit that criterion hmm has anyone of us computer geeks me included ever consider that inovation is not limited to software hardware true ms products do not boast features that ms invented but how many products out there by other vendors out there are truely innovative in their continuing development think what makes ms special to the public is thier innovative pricing it is true the xwindows mac next all have some feature in thier gui that are better than ms but people like me can afford them it is true that apple has lower their pricing on the low end models but they are just that low end system is better operating system but the machines they operate on just are too expensive for my tastes unix platform is powerful enuf but tell the common user to set up xdefault am still confused on what some of them things do and they either puke or faint if think about it low prices aint innovative if come down to it but for the product it offers and on the lower cost and powerful hardware that it runs on as compare to macs ms is kinda innovative oh yea guess the fact that the support products and applications they have garnered for mswindows does make them kinda innovative too dixon ly dly joule elee calpoly edu dly oboe calpoly edu electrical and electronic engineering cal poly slo newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell uw beaver netnews nwnet net news uoregon edu cs uoregon edu getafix cs uoregon edu akm from akm getafix cs uoregon edu anant kartik mithal subject re info menu choice in file manager message id may19 cs uoregon edu sender news cs uoregon edu netnews owner organization university of oregon computer and information sciences dept references may18 trintex uucp shenoy pv025f vincent iastate edu date wed may gmt lines in article shenoy pv025f vincent iastate edu shenoy iastate edu shiva shenoy writes in may18 trintex uucp charles tinman dev prodigy com charles emmons writes description of file manager info menu option edit the winfile ini file if there is section addons in it great else add the following two lines if the addons section exists then just add the second line addons info filesize dll note that the filesize dll is part of the windows resource kit if you install it and you can download it from cica it will make the appropriate changes itself kartik if you quote my article remember to trim it down to the essentials anant kartik mithal akm cs uoregon edu network manager ph student comp science of oregon eugene or fax newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell uw beaver cs ubc ca newsserver sfu ca sfu ca presiden from presiden fraser sfu ca pat presidente subject re pctools for windows demo message id presiden sfu ca sender news sfu ca organization simon fraser university burnaby canada references may199323085474 elroy uh edu date wed may gmt lines st1pb elroy uh edu burris dean writes if someone has downloaded the pctools demo from compuserve please upload it to cica or other ftp site thanks dean st1pb elroy uh edu sorry don have the demo but do have the program and have been using it for the past few weeks since now have dos as well don use many of the features of pct4win but do so use the pct desktop with drag and drop printing folders in folders and multiple desktops the file manager which is far superior to win fm pat presidente ppreside cln etc bc ca path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu uunet pipex uknet acorn pcolmer from pcolmer acorn co uk philip colmer newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject re capturing screen shots message id acorn co uk date may gmt references acorn co uk sender pcolmer acorn co uk organization acorn computers ltd cambridge england lines in article acorn co uk wrote am trying to capture some colour screenshots from windows currently have tried pressing print screen to copy the screen to the clipboard then paste the clipboard into the windows paint package many thanks for the replies received to this couple of people suggested how could get the paint package to work properly but in the end took the advice of someone else to try paintshop pro from cica indiana edu thanks again philip practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net paladin american edu news univie ac at blekul11 wimvh nntp posting host date wed may newsgroups comp os ms windows misc from wimvh liris tew kuleuven ac be wim van holder distribution world references may16 samba oit unc edu t8fl2 ehs balsam unca edu message id may19 liris tew kuleuven ac be organization leuven applied economic sciences department subject re head to head win and os lines in article t8fl2 ehs balsam unca edu kepley photon phys unca edu writes in article may16 samba oit unc edu dil admin mhs unc edu dave laudicina writes question the next question is even if did want to run os and had this big monster machine to run it on is there diverse think you re deliberatly overstating the requirements for os considering that os is multi threaded true multitasking os and takes the place of dos and windows and more actually think the requirements for os are very reasoable also think that anyone using windows without megs of ram and megs of hard drive space is beating their head against wall those are also legitimate requirements for os in fact the requirements for windows and os are about equal exquise me since when does mankind consider twice to be equal the natural progress of things is for government to gain ground and for liberty to yield thomas jefferson brad kepley kepley photon phys unca edu voice days wim van holder katholieke universiteit leuven tel departement fax dekenstraat leuven mail wimvh liris tew kuleuven ac be belgium fdbaq03 cc1 kuleuven ac be newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu uwm edu msuinfo uchinews att out cbnewsd cbnewsc cbfsb cbnewsg cb att com bdr from bdr cbnewsg cb att com brian reed subject terminal woes message id c76dpi g5g cbfsb cb att com keywords terminal modem sender news cbfsb cb att com organization at distribution na date mon may gmt lines have vlb machine with wang fax modem when using the windows terminal application the only way can get it to see the modem is to change it to com2 then go back and change it to com4 then it works fine have it set to com4 as the port to use don have anything plugged into com2 and ve looked over the manual for all it worth but what am missing the modem is jumpered for com4 irq3 which understand means can use the second serial port and the modem at the same time but not using the second serial port anyway also when using procomm for dos it always sees the modem and dials but doesn always connect me when the other end answers don know if that helps any thanks brian reed bdr cbnewsg cb att com xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os ms windows setup comp os ms windows misc newsgroups comp os ms windows setup comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet pipex uknet mcsun sun4nl relay philips nl prle waa9 prl philips nl vharten from vharten prl philips nl peter van harten subject ati graphics ultra pro problem message id vharten prl philips nl lines sender news prl philips nl usenet news system organization philips research date wed may gmt have the following problem on dell se with the ati graphics ultra pro eisa when start windows the first times try to run an application it does not start windows will show the following error message error executing application there is not enough memory to run the application after the first tries the application want to run will start and afterwards there are no more problems when change the video driver from mach to this problem does not occur so suspect the ati drivers tried both the build and build driver does anyone have clue van harten philips research laboratories tel prof holstlaan fax aa eindhoven email vharten prl philips nl the netherlands xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc newsgroups alt fan bill gates comp os ms windows advocacy comp os ms windows misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net wupost uunet pipex uknet pavo csi cam ac uk cam orl co uk thg from thg cam orl co uk tim glauert subject re challenge to microsoft supporters message id may19 infodev cam ac uk sender news infodev cam ac uk usenet news nntp posting host okra cam orl co uk organization olivetti research ltd cambridge england references may18 infodev cam ac uk news duke edu date wed may gmt lines in article news duke edu kdb sunbar mc duke edu kurt bollacker writes tim glauert thg cam orl co uk wrote in other words it is your opinion that msw3 is inferior to its competition that not the same as msw3 being objectively inferior no it is technically inferior to the os guis that listed ok now you are starting to define your criteria by this criterion it is inferior afraid that you haven actually proved that you have shown that some aspects of msw3 are technically inferior to other systems as said earlier if this is all you are trying to say then it is trivially true but some aspects of msw3 are actually technically superior to each of the other systems resource requirements performace device support printer support gui etc btw love to see the studies which show that unix is as easy to learn as windows but might even agree that on balance msw3 is technically inferior to some of the competition this still does not prove your point if you have another then perhaps am incorrect range of available applications base os cost cost of applications cost of hardware multi platform support quality of the after sales service availability of books training materials support for visual and physical handicaps suitability for use in mobile computing quality of documentation if you think that technical excellence is the only factor when deciding on an os or indeed the primary factor you need to think again path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu uwm edu msuinfo news from tom carter carter photon cem msu edu newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject corrected microcal origin package uploaded to cica date may gmt organization department of chemistry michigan state university lines message id td88j krk msuinfo cl msu edu reply to carter photon cem msu edu nntp posting host exciton cem msu edu ve recently re uploaded to cica the current v2 version of the working model of microcal origin scientific and technical graphics and data analysis package for windows the working model is only and puts promo message on hardcopies but is largely identical to the full version saving origin files is disabled but you can save ascii data sets produced with origin it also says it has an expiration date of sept try it you may like it as do it currently at ftp cica indiana edu in the directory pub pc win3 uploads as origin2 zip the file origin zip is unfortunately incomplete sorry bout that include std disclaimer tom carter carter photon cem msu edu michigan state university carter msucem bitnet chemistry department path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net europa eng gtefsd com news from hstarke europa eng gtefsd com hal starke newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject enchaced mode with scsi disk date may gmt organization gte fsd lines message id tdbik l0o europa eng gtefsd com reply to hstarke europa eng gtefsd com hal starke nntp posting host hstarke eng gtefsd com just removed an ide drive and reformated two scsi disk to use as boot disk in system that did run windows fine in enhanced mode its dx50 with meg ram and an adaptec with bios enabled system runs fine and runs windows in standard mode fine but it returns to the dos prompt when trying to run mode ve tried emmexclude and sysrombreakpoint what gives thanks in advance hal my views are my own xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt news media alt politics elections talk politics misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester rutgers usc nic csu net vmsb is csupomona edu mpye from mpye vmsb is csupomona edu newsgroups alt news media alt politics elections talk politics misc subject re media horrified at perot investigating bush message id jun25 vmsb is csupomona edu date jun gmt references tom jun23082822 amber ssd csd harris com visser convex convex com jun25 vmsb is csupomona edu visser convex convex com organization california state polytechnic university pomona lines nntp posting host acvax1 nntp posting user cvads008 visser convex com lance visser writes can find my source but if you state that you will retract your claim ll go dig one up at the library fair enough are you serious not talking about retracting anything until you have produced something if you were not just talking off the top of your head would assume that you have some memory of what your source is put up now without conditions yes very serious claim that can substantiate my statement that rudman says he doesn believe perot was investigating him you claim perot was investigating him if you will state that you were in error on this point provided produce the source ll go dig it up now give me one reason why should go to the trouble if you won agree to this it is simple enough you know but don have time to waste if you ll just blow it off with more of the tripe you usually post michael pye email mpye csupomona edu xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt security ripem sci crypt comp security misc alt security comp mail misc comp answers news answers newsgroups alt security ripem sci crypt comp security misc alt security comp mail misc comp answers news answers path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu wupost spool mu edu caen sol ctr columbia edu usenet ucs indiana edu silver ucs indiana edu mvanheyn from marc vanheyningen mvanheyn cs indiana edu subject ripem frequently asked questions content type text usenet faq version title ripem faq message id c3juww dru usenet ucs indiana edu followup to alt security ripem originator mvanheyn silver ucs indiana edu sender news usenet ucs indiana edu usenet news system supersedes jan25 news cs indiana edu nntp posting host silver ucs indiana edu organization computer science indiana university date mon mar gmt approved news answers request mit edu expires fri apr gmt lines archive name ripem faq last update sun mar about this posting this is still rather rough listing of likely questions and information about ripem program for public key mail encryption it this faq not ripem was written and will be maintained by marc vanheyningen mvanheyn whale cs indiana edu it will be posted to variety of newsgroups on monthly basis follow up discussion specific to ripem is redirected to the group alt security ripem this month have reformatted this posting in an attempt to comply with the standards for hypertext faq formatting to allow easy manipulation of this document over the world wide web let me know what you think disclaimer nothing in this faq should be considered legal advice or anything other than one person opinion if you want real legal advice talk to real lawyer questions and answers what is ripem ripem is program which performs privacy enhanced mail pem using the cryptographic techniques of rsa and des it allows your electronic mail to have the properties of authentication who sent it can be confirmed and privacy nobody can read it except the intended recipient ripem was written primarily by mark riordan mrr scss3 cl msu edu most of the code is in the public domain except for the rsa routines which are library called rsaref licensed from rsa data security inc how can get ripem ripem contains the library of cryptographic routines rsaref which is considered munitions and thus is export restricted from distribution to people who are not citizens or permanent residents of the or canada therefore the following request is quoted from the readme file please do not export the cryptographic code in this distribution outside of the usa or canada this is personal request from me the author of ripem and condition of your use of ripem note that rsaref is not in the public domain and license for it is included with the distribution you should read it before using ripem the best way to get it is to ask friend for copy since this will reduce the load on those sites that do carry it not to mention the humans that run them naturally this requires that you trust the friend ripem is available via anonymous ftp to citizens and permanent residents in the from rsa com cd to rsaref and read the readme file for info last looked this site contains only the source tree and does not contain compiled binaries or the nice mac version ripem as well as some other crypt stuff has its home site on rpub cl msu edu which is open to non anonymous ftp for users in the and canada who are citizens or permanent residents to find out how to obtain access ftp there cd to pub crypt and read the file getting access for convenience binaries for many architectures are available here in addition to the full source tree will ripem run on my machine probably it has already been ported to ms dos and most flavors of unix sunos next linux aix ultrix solaris etc ports to macintosh include standard unix style port and rather nice mac like port written by raymond lau author of stuffit more ports are expected and help of users is invited will ripem work with my mailer probably how easy and clean the effective interface is will depend on the sophistication and modularity of the mailer though the users guide included with the distribution discusses ways to use ripem with many popular mailers including berkeley mush elm and mh code is also included in elisp to allow easy use of ripem inside gnu emacs if you make new interface for ripem or create an improvement on one in the distribution which you believe is convenient to use secure and may be useful to others feel free to post it to alt security ripem what is rsa rsa is crypto system which is asymmetric or public key this means that there are two different related keys one to encrypt and one to decrypt because one cannot reasonably be derived from the other you may publish your encryption or public key widely and keep your decryption or private key to yourself anyone can use your public key to encrypt message but only you hold the private key needed to decrypt it note that the message sent with rsa is normally just the des key to the real message see what is des note that the above only provides for privacy for authentication the fingerprint of the message see what is fingerprint like md5 is encrypted with the sender private key the recipient can use the sender public key to decrypt it and confirm that the message must have come from the sender rsa was named for the three men rivest shamir and adleman who invented it to find out more about rsa ftp to rsa com and look in pub faq or look in sci crypt what is des des is the data encryption standard widely used symmetric or secret key crypto system unlike rsa des uses the same key to encrypt and decrypt messages however des is much faster than rsa ripem uses both des and rsa it generates random key and encrypts your mail with des using that key it then encrypts that key with the recipient public rsa key and includes the result in the letter allowing the recipient to recover the des key des is sometimes considered weak because it is somewhat old and uses key length considered too short by modern standards however it should be reasonably safe against an opponent smaller than large corporation or government agency it is not unlikely that future ripems will strengthen the symmetric cipher possibly by using multiple encryption with des what is pem and how does ripem relate pem is privacy enhanced mail system for allowing easy transfer of encrypted electronic mail it is described in rfcs these documents have been approved and obsolete the old rfcs ripem is not really complete implementation of pem because pem specifies certificates for authenticating keys which ripem does not handle at this time their addition is planned what this about distributing and authenticating keys for remote user to be able to send secure mail to you she must know your public key for you to be able to confirm that the message received came from her you must know her public key it is important that this information be accurate if bad guy convinces her that his key is in fact yours she will send messages which he can read ripem allows for three methods of key management central server the distributed finger servers and flat file all three are described in the ripem users guide which is part of the distribution none of them provide perfect security why do all ripem public keys look very similar ripem public keys begin with pkcs identifier describing various characteristics about the key so the first bunch of characters in your key may be the same as those of lots of other people keys this does not mean your keys are similar but only that they are the same class of key were generated with the same program are of the same length etc what is fingerprint like md5 md5 is message digest algorithm produced by rsa data security inc it provides bit fingerprint or cryptographically secure hash of the plaintext it is cryptographically secure because it is not possible in reasonable amount of computation to produce different plaintext which produces the same fingerprint thus instead of signing the entire message with the sender private key only the md5 of the message needs to be signed for authentication md5 is sometimes used for other purposes for example it is often used to map an input of arbitrary length to bits of data as passphrase interpreter or cookie generator md5 is described in its entirety including an implementation in in rfc what is pgp pgp is another cryptographic mail program called pretty good privacy pgp has been around longer than ripem and works somewhat differently pgp is not compatible with ripem in any way though pgp does also use rsa some major differences between pgp and ripem pgp has more key management features particularly for users without direct network connection ripem conforms to the pem rfcs and thus has greater probability of working with other pem software pgp makes no attempt to be compatible with anything other than pgp in fact pgp is not compatible with pgp ripem uses rsaref library of rsa routines from rsa data security inc rsaref comes with license which allows noncommercial use pgp uses its own implementation of rsa which is not licensed thus pkp the firm holding the patents on the rsa algorithm claims that it is infringement of that patent to make use or sell pgp in the or canada in acknowledgement of this pgp original author phil zimmermann says in the documentation in fact if you live in the usa and you are not federal agency you shouldn actually run pgp on your computer because public key partners wants to forbid you from running my software pgp is contraband both pgp and ripem are export restricted and cannot be sent outside the and canada however pgp already exists on many ftp sites in europe and other places whether you use pgp or ripem or whatever the documentation to pgp is recommended reading to anyone interested in such issues note that the above facts both regarding patent and export restrictions are somewhat controversial many people think it shouldn be that way and some people interpret various documents differently unfortunately discussions of it on the net inevitably seem to produce more heat than light and probably belong in misc legal computing see disclaimer what about rpem rpem stands for rabin privacy enhanced mail it was similar to ripem but used public key cipher invented by rabin which is not rsa in an attempt to avoid the patent on rsa it was written by mark riordan the same author as ripem its distribution was halted when contrary to the beliefs of many including rabin public key partners pkp claimed that their patent was broad enough to cover any public key cipher whose strength rested in the difficulty of factoring products of large primes not just rsa this claim is not universally accepted by any means but was not challenged for pragmatic reasons rpem is not really used anymore it is not compatible with ripem or pgp what is mime mime stands for multipurpose internet mail extensions and is described in rfc you can find out about it in the newsgroup comp mail mime how pem should interact with mime is not yet entirely clear some people use the stopgap solution of having mime type application ripem in order to send ripem messages as mime ones hope some standards will emerge draft internet documents exist on the matter have this simple way to defeat the security of ripem you may wish to check the companion post ripem attacks which discusses some of the more obvious attacks on ripem security and what procedures will minimize the risk ripem main weak area is probably key distribution xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt security ripem sci crypt comp security misc alt security comp mail misc alt answers comp answers news answers path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu ux1 cso uiuc edu usenet ucs indiana edu silver ucs indiana edu mvanheyn from mvanheyn cs indiana edu marc vanheyningen newsgroups alt security ripem sci crypt comp security misc alt security comp mail misc alt answers comp answers news answers subject ripem frequently asked questions message id c4qoa0 ca6 usenet ucs indiana edu date mar gmt article usenet c4qoa0 ca6 expires thu may gmt sender news usenet ucs indiana edu usenet news system followup to alt security ripem organization computer science indiana university lines approved news answers request mit edu content type text usenet faq version title ripem faq originator mvanheyn silver ucs indiana edu nntp posting host silver ucs indiana edu mime version archive name ripem faq last update mar about this posting this is listing of likely questions and information about ripem program for public key mail encryption it this faq not ripem was written and will be maintained by marc vanheyningen mvanheyn cs indiana edu it will be posted to variety of newsgroups on monthly basis follow up discussion specific to ripem is redirected to the group alt security ripem what new am now running world wide web archive of ripem information it does not contain much of anything that isn available elsewhere but it has convenient pointers to the most current version of this faq and some other stuff the url is http cs indiana edu ripem dir html this month version has fair amount of new pointers to information on patents and stuff like that ve also reordered few things to have more sensible ordering hope don have to edit this again soon disclaimer nothing in this faq should be considered legal advice or anything other than one layperson opinion if you want real legal advice talk to real lawyer preferably one with experience in patent law export regulations or whatever area of law is in question list of questions what is ripem how can get ripem will ripem run on my machine will ripem work with my mailer what is rsa what is des what is fingerprint like md5 what is pem what this about distributing and authenticating keys isn it bad idea to use patented algorithms in standards like pem what about rsadsi pkp why do all ripem public keys look very similar what is pgp what about rpem what is mime what is tis pem have this simple way to defeat the security of ripem questions and answers what is ripem ripem is not yet complete but useful implementation of privacy enhanced mail pem ripem allows your electronic mail to have the four security facilities provided by pem disclosure protection optional originator authenticity message integrity measures and non repudiation of origin always see what is pem ripem was written primarily by mark riordan mrr scss3 cl msu edu most of the code is in the public domain except for the rsa routines which are library called rsaref licensed from rsa data security inc the current version of ripem is the current version of the macintosh port of ripem is how can get ripem ripem uses the library of cryptographic routines rsaref which is considered munitions and thus is export restricted from distribution to persons who are not citizens or permanent residents in the or canada without an export license no such license has been obtained nor would one likely be granted unless the rsa key exchange were shortened to bits and the symmetric cipher changed to something weaker than des there are some suggestions that this situation may change now that clinton is in office the author requests in the readme file that this law not be violated please do not export the cryptographic code in this distribution outside of the usa or canada this is personal request from me the author of ripem and condition of your use of ripem note that rsaref is not in the public domain and license for it is included with the distribution you should read it before using ripem ripem is available via anonymous ftp to citizens and permanent residents in the from rsa com cd to rsaref and read the readme file for info note that the non rsaref portion of ripem is not product of rsa data security incorporated they merely are helping distribute it ripem as well as some other crypt stuff has its home site on ripem msu edu which is open to non anonymous ftp for users in the and canada who are citizens or permanent residents to find out how to obtain access ftp there cd to pub crypt and read the file getting access for convenience binaries for many architectures are available here in addition to the full source tree will ripem run on my machine probably it has already been ported to ms dos and most flavors of unix sunos next linux aix ultrix solaris etc ports to macintosh include standard unix style port and rather nice mac like port written by raymond lau author of stuffit more ports are expected and help of users is invited will ripem work with my mailer probably how easy and clean the effective interface is will depend on the sophistication and modularity of the mailer though the users guide included with the distribution discusses ways to use ripem with many popular mailers including berkeley mush elm and mh code is also included in elisp to allow easy use of ripem inside gnu emacs if you make new interface for ripem or create an improvement on one in the distribution which you believe is convenient to use secure and may be useful to others feel free to post it to alt security ripem what is rsa rsa is crypto system which is asymmetric or public key this means that there are two different related keys one to encrypt and one to decrypt because one cannot reasonably be derived from the other you may publish your encryption or public key widely and keep your decryption or private key to yourself anyone can use your public key to encrypt message but only you hold the private key needed to decrypt it note that the message sent with rsa is normally just the des key to the real plaintext see what is des note that the above only provides for disclosure protection for originator authenticity message integrity and non repudiation of origin services to be implemented the fingerprint of the message see what is fingerprint like md5 is encrypted with the sender private key the recipient or dispute resolving authority can use the sender public key to decrypt it and confirm that the message must have come from the sender and was not altered rsa was named for the three men rivest shamir and adleman who invented it to find out lots more about rsa and modern cryptography in general ftp to rsa com and look in pub faq some information also may be in sci crypt what is des des is the data encryption standard widely used symmetric or secret key crypto system unlike rsa des uses the same key to encrypt and decrypt messages however des is much faster than rsa ripem uses both des and rsa it generates random key and encrypts your mail with des using that key it then encrypts that key with the recipient public rsa key and includes the result in the letter allowing the recipient to recover the des key des is sometimes considered weak because it is somewhat old and uses key length considered too short by modern standards however it should be reasonably safe against an opponent smaller than large corporation or government agency it is not likely that the pem standard will incorporate support for other symmetric ciphers in the near future because there is strong feeling that pem should be stable so it can become utilized widely without early problems with interoperability what is fingerprint like md5 md5 is message digest algorithm produced by rsa data security inc it provides bit fingerprint or cryptographically secure hash of the plaintext it is cryptographically secure because it is not possible in reasonable amount of computation to produce different plaintext which produces the same fingerprint thus instead of signing the entire message with the sender private key only the md5 of the message needs to be signed for authentication md5s can also be exchanged directly for authentication for example ripem public keys include an md5 of the public key in the file so parties wishing to confirm their keys are authentic via separate channel merely need exchange md5s of keys and verify their accuracy md5 is sometimes used for other purposes for example it is often used to map an input of arbitrary length to bits of data as passphrase interpreter or cookie generator md5 is described in its entirety including an implementation in in rfc there have been some recent suggestions that md5 may not be as strong hash as was originally believed presumably some other hash function will be used if this is accepted as true what is pem pem is privacy enhanced mail standard for allowing transfer of encrypted electronic mail generated over long period of time by working group of experts it is described in rfcs these documents have been approved and obsolete the old rfcs ripem is not really complete implementation of pem because pem specifies certificates for authenticating keys which ripem does not handle at this time their addition is planned what this about distributing and authenticating keys for remote user to be able to send secure mail to you she must know your public key for you to be able to confirm that the message received came from her you must know her public key it is important that this information be accurate if bad guy convinces her that his key is in fact yours she will send messages which he can read ripem allows for three methods of key management central server the distributed finger servers and flat file all three are described in the ripem users guide which is part of the distribution none of them provide perfect security the pem standard calls for key management by certificates the addition of this feature to ripem is planned but chicken egg issues still exist isn it bad idea to use patented algorithms in standards like pem this issue has been considered in the standards process rfc the specification for internet standards has discussion section on what specifications for nondiscriminatory availability must be met for patented method to be included in standard rfc addresses this issue with regard to the patents covering public key cryptography this does not of course mean that all questions are settled or that everyone is in agreement an interesting exchange on the use of patented algorithms in standards with regard to public key cryptography is in the league for programming freedom archive available via ftp ftp uu net doc lpf in the files bidzos letter and bidzos response amusingly the lpf files on ftp uu net are compressed with patented algorithm what about rsadsi pkp rsa data security inc rsadsi is california based company specializing in cryptographic technologies public key partners is firm which holds exclusive sub licensing rights of the following patents and all of their corresponding foreign patents cryptographic apparatus and method diffie hellman no public key cryptographic apparatus and method hellman merkle no cryptographic communications system and method rsa no exponential cryptographic apparatus and method hellman pohlig no pkp claims these four patents cover all known methods of public key cryptography the two businesses are rather closely related for example the same person jim bidzos is president of both of them pkp has licensed this technology to considerable number of companies ibm dec motorola at lotus for use in their products pkp has also threatened and filed lawsuits defending their patents ripem was originally created with no connection to rsadsi other than its use of the rsaref library and for no reason other than its author desire to see widespread use of public key cryptography however after the ball started rolling people at rsadsi got interested rsadsi decided to carry ripem on its ftp site and some people there started making their own ripem keys and contributing code ripem even won the best application built on rsaref in award why do all ripem public keys look very similar ripem public keys begin with pkcs public key cryptography standards identifier describing various characteristics about the key so the first bunch of characters in your key may be the same as those of lots of other people keys this does not mean your keys are similar but only that they are the same class of key were generated with the same program are of the same length etc what is pgp pgp is another cryptographic mail program called pretty good privacy pgp has been around longer than ripem and works somewhat differently pgp is not compatible with ripem in any way though pgp does also use rsa few major differences between pgp and ripem pgp has more key management features particularly for users without direct network connection ripem conforms to the pem rfcs and thus has greater probability of working with other pem software pgp makes no attempt to be compatible with anything other than itself ripem uses rsaref library of rsa routines from rsadsi which comes with license allowing noncommercial use pgp uses its own implementation of rsa pkp claims that it is violation of its patents to make use or sell pgp in the or canada without either license or written permission see disclaimer see what about rsadsi pkp phil zimmermann the author of pgp stopped distributing it after being threatened with legal action he believed that licensing scheme could be arranged but it hasn happened and there seems little prospect of it happening in the future he acknowledges in the pgp user guide in fact if you live in the usa and you are not federal agency you shouldn actually run pgp on your computer because public key partners wants to forbid you from running my software pgp is contraband both pgp and ripem are export restricted and cannot be sent outside the and canada without an export license however pgp already exists on many ftp sites in europe and other places whether you use pgp or ripem or whatever the documentation to pgp is recommended reading to anyone interested in such issues unfortunately it not distributed separately from the program which can be difficult to find in the on ftp sites due to liability concerns what about rpem rpem stands for rabin privacy enhanced mail it was similar to ripem but used public key cipher invented by rabin which is not rsa in an attempt to avoid the patents on public key systems it was written by mark riordan who later wrote ripem its distribution was halted when contrary to the beliefs of many including rabin pkp claimed that their patents were broad enough to cover the cipher employed this claim is not universally accepted but was not challenged for pragmatic reasons rpem is not really used anymore it is not compatible with ripem or pgp what is mime mime stands for multipurpose internet mail extensions and is described in rfc you can find out about it in the newsgroup comp mail mime faq exists on it how pem should interact with mime is not yet entirely clear some people use the stopgap solution of having mime type application ripem in order to send ripem messages as mime ones hope some standards will emerge draft internet documents exist on the matter what is tis pem trusted information systems is working on version of privacy enhanced mail for general availability last heard it was rumored to be integrated into an existing mail user agent mh rather than stand alone system and in beta test don know much more than that have this simple way to defeat the security of ripem you may wish to check the companion post ripem attacks which discusses some of the more obvious attacks on ripem security and what procedures will minimize the risk ripem main weak area is probably key distribution xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt security ripem sci crypt comp security misc alt security comp mail misc alt answers comp answers news answers path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu ux1 cso uiuc edu usenet ucs indiana edu silver ucs indiana edu mvanheyn from mvanheyn cs indiana edu marc vanheyningen newsgroups alt security ripem sci crypt comp security misc alt security comp mail misc alt answers comp answers news answers subject ripem frequently noted vulnerabilities message id c4qoh8 che usenet ucs indiana edu date mar gmt article usenet c4qoh8 che expires thu may gmt sender news usenet ucs indiana edu usenet news system followup to alt security ripem organization computer science indiana university lines approved news answers request mit edu content type text usenet faq version title ripem attacks originator mvanheyn silver ucs indiana edu supersedes c3jvk9 ey1 usenet ucs indiana edu nntp posting host silver ucs indiana edu mime version archive name ripem attacks last update mar some possible attacks on ripem this is living list of potential weaknesses to keep your eyes open for when using ripem for secure electronic mail it does not go into great detail and is almost certainly not exhaustive obviously many of the weaknesses are weaknesses of cryptographically secured mail in general and will pertain to secure mail programs other than ripem it is maintained by marc vanheyningen mvanheyn cs indiana edu it is posted monthly to variety of news groups followups pertaining specifically to ripem should go to alt security ripem cryptanalysis attacks breaking rsa would allow an attacker to find out your private key in which case he could read any mail encrypted to you and sign messages with your private key rsa is generally believed to be resistant to all standard cryptanalytic techniques even standard key about bits with ripem is long enough to render this impractical barring huge investment in hardware or breakthrough in factoring breaking des would allow an attacker to read any given message since the message itself is encrypted with des it would not allow an attacker to claim to be you des has only bits in its key and thus could conceivably be compromised by brute force with sufficient hardware but few agencies have such money to devote to simply read one message since each message has different des key the work for each message would remain high key management attacks stealing your private key would allow the same benefits as breaking rsa to safeguard it it is encrypted with des key which is derived from passphrase you type in however if an attacker can get copy of your private keyfile and your passphrase by snooping network packets tapping lines or whatever he could break the whole scheme the main risk is that of transferring either the passphrase or the private key file across an untrusted link so don do that run ripem on trusted machine preferably one sitting right in front of you ideally your own machine in your own home or maybe office which nobody else has physical access to fooling you into accepting bogus public key for someone else could allow an opponent to deceive you into sending secret messages to him rather than to the real recipient if the enemy can fool your intended recipient as well he could re encrypt the messages with the other bogus public key and pass them along it is important to get the proper public keys of other people the most common mechanism for this is finger assuming the opponent has not compromised routers or daemons or such finger can be given fair amount of trust the strongest method of key authentication is to exchange keys in person however this is not always practical having other people vouch for you by signing statement containing your key is possible although ripem doesn have features for doing this as automatically as pgp ripem does generate and check md5 fingerprints of public keys in the key files they may be exchanged via separate channel for authentication playback attacks even if an opponent cannot break the cryptography an opponent could still cause difficulties for example suppose you send message with mic only pem mode which does not provide disclosure protection to alice which says ok let do that your opponent intercepts it and now resends it to bob who now has message which is authenticated as from you telling him to do that of course he may interpret it in an entirely different context or your opponent could transmit the same message to the same recipient much later figuring it would be seen differently at later time or the opponent could change the originator name to himself register your public key as his and send message hoping the recipient will send him return mail indicating perhaps even quoting the unknown message to defeat playback attacks the plaintext of each message should include some indication of the sender and recipient and unique identifier typically the date good front end script for ripem should do this automatically imho as recipient you should be sure that the originator name header and the sender indicated within the plaintext are the same that you really are recipient and that the message is not an old one some this also can and should be automated the author of this faq has made modest attempt at automating the process of generating and checking encapsulated headers the programs are included in the standard distribution in the utils directory local attacks clearly the security of ripem cannot be greater than the security of the machine where the encryption is performed for example under unix super user could manage to get at your encrypted mail although it would take some planning and effort to do something like replace the ripem executable with trojan horse or to get copy of the plaintext depending how it stored in addition the link between you and the machine running ripem is an extension of that if you decrypt with ripem on remote machine which you are connected to via network or worse yet modem an eavesdropper could see the plaintext and probably also your passphrase ripem should only be executed on systems you trust obviously in the extreme case ripem should only be used on your own machine which you have total control over and which nobody else has access to which has only carefully examined software known to be free of viruses and so on however there very real trade off between convenience and security here more moderately cautious user might use ripem on unix workstation where other people have access even root access but increase security by keeping private keys and the statically linked of course executable on floppy disk some people will keep ripem on multi user system but when dialing in over an insecure line they will download the message to their own system and perform the ripem decryption there however the security provided by such mechanism is somewhat illusory since you presumably type your cleartext password to log in you ve just given away the store since the attacker can now log in as you and install traps in your account to steal your private key next time you use it from less insecure line this will likely remain the situation as long as most systems use the rather quaint mechanism of cleartext password authentication find it nice to put brief statement of how carefully manage my security arrangement in my plan next to my public key so that potential correspondents can be aware what level of precautions are in place some people use two keys short one which is not carefully managed for ordinary use and longer one which is treated with greater care for critical correspondence untrusted partner attacks ripem encryption will ensure that only person with the private key corresponding to the public key used to encrypt the data may read the traffic however once someone with that key gets the message she may always make whatever kind of transformations she wishes there exist no cryptographic barriers to recipient say taking an encrypted message and converting it to mic only message signed by you and readable by anyone although ripem does not provide this functionality indeed the latest pem draft have seen specifically states that such transformations should be possible to allow forwarding functions to work including the recipients in the plaintext as mentioned above will make it possible for recipients of redistributed message to be aware of its original nature naturally the security of the cryptography can never be greater than the security of the people using it path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech udel wupost uunet psinntp suite com usenet from jim miller suite com newsgroups sci crypt subject certifying authority question answered date apr gmt organization suite software lines message id ppvai l79 bilbo suite com reply to jim miller suite com nntp posting host nimrod suite com if you have access to ftp try ftping to rsa com login as anonymous there are several documents there including frequently asked questions about today cryptography document it has faq in its name believe this document explains the idea behind the certifying authorities good luck john kelsey c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu thanks ve ftp ed the faq file and it is just what was looking for jim miller suite com newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech udel wupost mont mizzou1 missouri edu c445585 from c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu john kelsey subject rubber hose cryptanalysis message id ba613dff c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu sender news mont cs missouri edu nntp posting host mizzou1 missouri edu organization university of missouri references c4tnm5 oa cs uiuc edu pfq7p transfer stratus com c4u3a6 b7 cs uiuc edu apr2 ucsu colorado edu apr3 infodev cam ac uk date sun apr cdt lines some sick part of me really liked that phrase actually merely the threat of long prison sentence even without beating can get most people to give in especially if it also punctuated with trip to the county jail where one just happens to get locked up with all the drunk stoned crazy folks that are too violent to be left in cells with other people newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com emory swrinde sdd hp com decwrl netcomsv netcom com grady from grady netcom com ef221 subject declassifying media message id gradyc513sa mb3 netcom com organization capriccioso newsreader tin version pl6 date mon apr gmt lines there are many urban legends maybe this ought to be in the crypt faq about what is actually sufficient to clear or declassify magnetic media when used for classified data here is some information from the horse mouth regarding the sufficient overwriting of media clearing meant to be retained within the controlled environment or declassifying the material to be reused outside the controlled environment from national telecommunications and information systems security ntiss advisory memorandum on office automation security guidelines ntissam compusec clearing of magnetic media certain types of removable media magnetic tape floppy disk cassettes and magnetic cards may be cleared by overwriting the entire media one time with any one character floppy disks may be cleared by applying vendor formatting program that overwrites each location with given character fixed media winchester disks should be cleared by overwriting at least one time with any one character one way to do this is by applying vendor supplied formatting program that overwrites each location on the disk with given character if it can be shown that this program actually works as advertised the user should beware some programs that purport to overwrite all locations do not actually do this cleared media may be resides within the controlled facility or released for destruction however they should be marked and controlled at the level of the most restrictive sensitivity of information ever recorded declassification of magnetic media certain types of removable media can be declassified using degaussing device that has been approved for declassifying media of that type list of approved devices is maintained by the nsa if fixed medium for example hard or winchester disk is operative an approved method of declassifying the disk pack is to employ an overwrite procedure which must overwrite all addressable locations at least three times by writing any character then its complement binary ones and binary zeros alternatively when fixed media become inoperative it is impossible to declassify the media by the overwrite method in this case there are two alternate procedures that may be used disassemble the disk pack and degauss each platter with the appropriate approved degaussing equipment and courier the inoperative media to the vendor facility have the magnetic media disk platter removed in sight of the courier and returned to the courier for destruction at the secure site the vendor can then install new platters and repair any other problems with the disk unit destruction of magnetic media see dod computer security center department of defense magnetic remanence security guideline csc std for official use only this and many other interesting documents many that are more informative than probably intended on computer security procedures can be obtained free from executive secretary national telecommunications and informations systems security committee national security agency fort george meade md write them it fun to be on the nsa mailing list grady netcom com ef221 e2 ad d3 d1 c6 f3 fc ac f7 path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com emory sol ctr columbia edu usc wupost uunet pipex demon gtoal com gtoal newsgroups sci crypt from gtoal gtoal com graham toal subject re hard drive security for fbi targets date sun apr message id aa01578 pizzabox demon co uk sender usenet demon co uk lines from res colnet cmhnet org rob stampfli separate locations to gain credibility if they are seized and you are compelled to decrypt it you simply explain that you are an amateur cryptologist playing around with one time pads and that the first file is the pad for the second they xor the two files and sure enough out pops copy of war and peace so judging from recent history at this point they drop the original charges preemptively find you guilty of copyright violations and seize your computer your home and your financial reserves under federal forfeiture laws ah no what really happens is that they turn up at the court with another file which when exored with your document gives up the famous e911 document and tell you some judges would fall for it xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security pgp path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech enterpoop mit edu senator bedfellow mit edu news mit edu warlord from warlord mit edu derek atkins newsgroups sci crypt alt security pgp subject re disk safety measure date apr gmt organization massachusetts institute of technology lines message id warlord apr5202341 steve dallas mit edu references apr5 ucsu colorado edu gradyc50mf5 tv netcom com pq0re gc2 network ucsd edu nntp posting host steve dallas mit edu in reply to loki sdphu3 ucsd edu message of apr gmt begin pgp signed message in article pq0re gc2 network ucsd edu loki sdphu3 ucsd edu lance cottrell writes btw have not been able to get pgp to produce signature that can attatch to the end of this message what is the procedure thanks try pgp sat clearsig on this will do the clearsig signing enjoy derek pgp key available upon request on the key server pgp public keys toxicwaste mit edu begin pgp signature version iqbuagubk8dnazh0k1zbsgrxaqfozqlec xkxmodhcpf az3aoqslfz w400udk ng6prxnpueuszqeiiusmcvcrcgnwbavrxfja1o4yubh01czcg3zc9wljolxlxjn7 isjh etzxmjnnynjxlgs0ao ezb end pgp signature derek atkins mit electrical engineering and computer science secretary mit student information processing board sipb mit media laboratory speech research group warlord mit edu pp asel n1nwh xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security pgp newsgroups sci crypt alt security pgp path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech swrinde zaphod mps ohio state edu wupost gumby yale yale edu ira uka de rz uni karlsruhe de stepsun uni kl de uklirb posthorn bloch neuhaus from neuhaus bloch informatik uni kl de stephan neuhaus hiwi mattern subject re pgp general comments message id neuhaus bloch sender news posthorn informatik uni kl de news system account nntp posting host bloch informatik uni kl de organization university of kaiserslautern germany references gradyc4xd9p ok netcom com neuhaus vier date mon apr gmt lines neuhaus vier informatik uni kl de stephan neuhaus hiwi mattern writes lots of stuff hate to follow up to my own posting but should perhaps clarify some things so won get flamed first of all when talking about factoring the modulus or breakthrough in factoring what really mean is breakthrough in the cryptanalysis of rsa know that factoring and breaking rsa are not proven to be equivalent it just so damn convenient not to repeat this every time also have to admit that don really know if the non group property of cipher is essential only for key chaining have thought about it little while but can find way that cryptanalyst could exploit group structure that of course means nothing at all then wrote please note that as long as it is much harder to factor rsa modulus than it is to generate it the increase in computer speed alone will keep key lengths and modulus factoring in lock step people will simply start using longer moduli and still be safe what meant was that as long as the only advantage of the cryptanalyst is faster computer then we will probably have rsa for long time to come because even if bit moduli somehow could be broken with fast computers not with new algorithm then people would simply use longer moduli both users and cryptanalysts benefit from better technology in the same way hope this keeps the flames away have fun stephan neuhaus informatik uni kl de sig closed for inventory please leave your pickaxe outside pgp public key available on request note the expiration date newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech swrinde zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com nigel msen com yale edu yale cs yale edu news mail gateway daemon from whmurray dockmaster ncsc mil subject licensing message id dockmaster ncsc mil sender whmurray issa dockmaster ncsc mil organization yale cs mail news gateway date tue apr gmt lines this thread brings up the more general question can any crypto implementation for which highly publicly scrutinized source code is not available ever be trusted after ibm had invented the des and the nbs had advertised for proposals but before ibm had decided to respond argued strenuously that they should not they should keep it proprietary the biggest proponent of proposing was dr lewis branscomb dr branscomb was the ibm chief scientist and had come to ibm from nbs fortunately for all of us dr branscomb understood the answer to the above question much better than he realized how difficult it would be to gain acceptance for any cryptographic mechanism because of the necessary complexity publicity would not be sufficient and neither would authority in fact it has taken both of those plus more than years we have also had independence the des was solicited by nbs invented and proposed by ibm and vetted by nbs it has also been examined and vetted by experts like adi shamir who are not subject to influence by any of these even now there are still people posting on this list who do not trust the des in spite of all the time all of the analysis and all of the public scrutiny of course it is just this point that nist misses when it attempts to gain acceptance for novel mechanism developed in secret on the basis of authority alone we had long thread here about whether or not the nsa can break the des that is silly question at some cost and in some time they can break anything the important question is at what cost and in what time the fundamental strength of the des and rsa are not nearly so important as what we know about their strength as long as we understand the cost and duration for an attacker then we can use them in safe way at this point we may never replace either because of the inability of any successor to overcome this knowledge gap des and rsa are among the most significant inventions of the century and the most important inventions in the history of cryptography we are damned lucky to have them william hugh murray executive consultant information system security locust avenue suite new canaan connecticut att wmurray whmurray at dockmaster ncsc mil path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com news ans net cmcl2 arizona ho from ho cs arizona edu hilarie orman newsgroups sci crypt subject re licensing of public key implementations message id optima cs arizona edu date apr gmt references dockmaster ncsc mil sender news cs arizona edu organization of arizona cs dept tucson lines with regard to your speculations on nsa involvement in the creation of pkp find that it fails the test of occam butcher knife never attribute to conspiracy what can be explained by forthright greed hilarie orman path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net wupost uunet walter rutgers fdurt1 fdu edu wisdom bubble org sugra ken from ken sugra uucp kenneth ng newsgroups sci crypt subject re identifying securing files message id apr5 sugra uucp date apr gmt references almaden ibm com bb29f4c mash boulder co us organization private computer totowa nj lines in article bb29f4c mash boulder co us rmashlan mash csn org robert mashlan writes tarnold vnet ibm com todd arnold said in article almaden ibm com it ok as long as you trust the end user to stay out of your application program or as long as it runs in system where the user can get to it otherwise you can stop him from finding the load module code in your program and simply bypassing the check for valid module the devious user can either modify the object code before running the program or he can run the program under debugger and change the instructions in memory there is way to foil debuggers by clearing the single step interrupt on which debugger depends every few instructions in the sensitive areas of the code this assumes the person is using the hardware debug instruction of an x86 type processor it can be negated by nop ing the clear debug instruction or by running the code on machine simulator like one wrote as senior project in college it can bypass and trace practically anything one could write in software kind of like being on star trek holideck kenneth ng please reply to ken eies2 njit edu for now all this might be an elaborate simulation running in little device sitting on someone table picard st tng path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net wupost uunet enterpoop mit edu senator bedfellow mit edu athena mit edu ninassup from ninassup athena mit edu nikos nassuphis newsgroups sci crypt subject lga ncrypt source date apr gmt organization massachusetts institute of technology lines message id pqu9dinnit1 senator bedfellow mit edu nntp posting host w20 mit edu got number of requests for code so here it is its written in x86 asm borland tasm will do tasm lga asm tlink lga asm the code lga ncryption by nick nassuphis code segment assume cs code ds code org start jmp begin gas particle assigment bit particle moving east bit particle moving west bit particle moving north bit particle moving south bit particle moving east bit particle moving west bit particle moving north bit particle moving south collisiong rules gas rules if and then if and then for nibbles and for bytes reflection rules just swap bits along directions this look up table implements two particle collisions for the hpp lattice gas hpprule db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db this rule implements the velocity reversal needed to run the gas evolution in reverse its called wallrule because its the same as is all particles hit wall head on wallrule db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db maxbyte equ lineno equ srcptr dw offset buffer1 desptr dw offset buffer2 savebuff db maxbyte lineno dup buffer1 db maxbyte lineno dup db dup buffer2 db maxbyte lineno dup db dup data db db db db this is test for lattice gas based encryption db algorithm the data is encoded as particles of db digital gas whose time evolution is then simulated db with cellular automaton type algorithm decryption db can be achieved by running the simulation in reverse db thermodynamic argument ensures that even if single db bit is flipped no decryption of the data is possible db db after the gas is let to evolve for timesteps db one can either run the reverse evolution by pressing db space or flip bit and then run by pressing db db for cryptographic application the key would consist db of the number of time steps and the time and location db of specific bit inversions db db db db db fill the gas with piece of code initgas mov di cs srcptr mov si offset data mov cx lineno ig0 push di push cx mov cx maxbyte ig1 mov al cs si mov cs di al inc si inc di loop ig1 pop cx pop di add di maxbyte loop ig0 mov si cs srcptr mov di offset initgas mov cx maxbyte mov al lg2 mov byte ptr cs si al not al inc si loop lg2 ret display gas molecules bouncing around showgas push es push si push di push cx push bx mov ax b800h mov es ax mov si cs srcptr mov di mov cx lineno add si maxbyte sg1 push cx push di mov cx maxbyte sg2 mov al cs si mov byte ptr es di al inc si add di dec cx jnz sg2 pop di pop cx add di loop sg1 pop bx pop cx pop di pop si pop es ret cs si sourse of data cs di destination of data scanonemiddleline first byte is special case because of warparound mov bl al is the assembled byte mov bh cs si maxbyte north is one line up lower and bh and at bits and or bl bh or them into the assembled byte mov bh cs si maxbyte south is one line down higher and bh and at bits and or bl bh place the stuff into al mov bh cs si maxbyte west is one byte left lower and bh and at bits and or bl bh mov bh cs si east is one byte right higher and bh and at bits and or bl bh mov bh mov al byte ptr cs bx offset hpprule mov cs di al inc si inc di middle bytes can be handled in loop mov cx maxbyte sol1 mov bl al is the assembled byte mov bh cs si maxbyte north is one line up lower and bh and at bits and or bl bh or them into the assembled byte mov bh cs si maxbyte south is one line down higher and bh and at bits and or bl bh place the stuff into al mov bh cs si west is one byte left lower and bh and at bits and or bl bh mov bh cs si east is one byte right higher and bh and at bits and or bl bh mov bh mov al byte ptr cs bx offset hpprule mov cs di al inc si inc di loop sol1 last byte is also special mov bl al is the assembled byte mov bh cs si maxbyte north is one line up lower and bh and at bits and or bl bh or them into the assembled byte mov bh cs si maxbyte south is one line down higher and bh and at bits and or bl bh place the stuff into al mov bh cs si west is one byte left lower and bh and at bits and or bl bh mov bh cs si maxbyte east is one byte right higher and bh and at bits and or bl bh mov bh mov al byte ptr cs bx offset hpprule mov cs di al inc si inc di ret cs si sourse of data cs di destination of data scanfirstline first byte is special case because of warparound mov bl mov bh cs si maxbyte lineno and bh and at bits and or bl bh or them into the assembled byte mov bh cs si maxbyte and bh and at bits and or bl bh place the stuff into al mov bh cs si maxbyte west is one byte left lower and bh and at bits and or bl bh mov bh cs si east is one byte right higher and bh and at bits and or bl bh mov bh mov al byte ptr cs bx offset hpprule mov cs di al inc si inc di middle bytes can be handled in loop mov cx maxbyte sfl1 mov bl al is the assembled byte mov bh cs si maxbyte lineno and bh and at bits and or bl bh or them into the assembled byte mov bh cs si maxbyte and bh and at bits and or bl bh place the stuff into al mov bh cs si west is one byte left lower and bh and at bits and or bl bh mov bh cs si east is one byte right higher and bh and at bits and or bl bh mov bh mov al byte ptr cs bx offset hpprule mov cs di al inc si inc di loop sfl1 last byte is also special mov bl al is the assembled byte mov bh cs si maxbyte lineno and bh and at bits and or bl bh or them into the assembled byte mov bh cs si maxbyte and bh and at bits and or bl bh place the stuff into al mov bh cs si west is one byte left lower and bh and at bits and or bl bh mov bh cs si maxbyte east is one byte right higher and bh and at bits and or bl bh mov bh mov al byte ptr cs bx offset hpprule mov cs di al ret cs si sourse of data cs di destination of data scanlastline first byte is special case because of warparound mov bl al is the assembled byte mov bh cs si maxbyte and bh and at bits and or bl bh or them into the assembled byte mov bh cs si maxbyte lineno and bh and at bits and or bl bh place the stuff into al mov bh cs si maxbyte west is one byte left lower and bh and at bits and or bl bh mov bh cs si east is one byte right higher and bh and at bits and or bl bh mov bh mov al byte ptr cs bx offset hpprule mov cs di al inc si inc di middle bytes can be handled in loop mov cx maxbyte sll1 mov bl al is the assembled byte mov bh cs si maxbyte and bh and at bits and or bl bh or them into the assembled byte mov bh cs si maxbyte lineno and bh and at bits and or bl bh place the stuff into al mov bh cs si west is one byte left lower and bh and at bits and or bl bh mov bh cs si east is one byte right higher and bh and at bits and or bl bh mov bh mov al byte ptr cs bx offset hpprule mov cs di al inc si inc di loop sll1 last byte is also special mov bl al is the assembled byte mov bh cs si maxbyte and bh and at bits and or bl bh or them into the assembled byte mov bh cs si maxbyte lineno and bh and at bits and or bl bh place the stuff into al mov bh cs si west is one byte left lower and bh and at bits and or bl bh mov bh cs si maxbyte east is one byte right higher and bh and at bits and or bl bh mov bh mov al byte ptr cs bx offset hpprule mov cs di al inc si inc di ret invert all velocities in the gas invertall push bx push cx push si mov si cs srcptr mov bx mov cx lineno ia1 push cx mov cx maxbyte ia2 mov bl cs si mov al byte ptr cs bx offset wallrule mov cs si al inc si loop ia2 pop cx loop ia1 pop si pop cx pop bx ret iterateonce mov si cs srcptr mov di cs desptr mov cs srcptr di mov cs desptr si push si push di call scanfirstline pop di pop si add si maxbyte add di maxbyte mov cx lineno dont scan first and last l1 push si push di push cx call scanonemiddleline pop cx pop di pop si add si maxbyte add di maxbyte loop l1 push si push di call scanlastline pop si pop di l3 ret iterate hpp rule cx times iterate push cx call iterateonce pop cx call showgas loop iterate ret iterate hpp rule cx times iterateuntil mov si mov cx offset iu4 offset iu3 iu00 mov al byte ptr cs si offset iu3 xor byte ptr cs si offset iu4 al inc si loop iu00 iu0 call iterateonce call showgas mov si cs srcptr mov cx maxbyte mov bx mov ah mov al iu1 mov bl byte ptr cs si mov dl byte ptr cs bx wallrule not ah xor dl ah and al dl inc si loop iu1 mov si mov cx offset iu4 offset iu3 iu2 mov ah byte ptr cs si offset iu4 and ah al xor byte ptr cs si offset iu3 ah inc si loop iu2 jmp iu3 iu3 mov ax offset iu0 push ax ret db dup iu4 push ax push bx push cx push dx push ds mov ah mov dx cs msgptr int pop ds pop dx pop cx pop bx pop ax ret db dup msgptr dw offset msg msg db this message is printed out by db code decrypted using data from the lattice db which was applied to the decoding routine db after every time step db the decoding function left the code unchanged db except after the gas evolution had completelly db reversed the thermalization times equ repetitions are enough to equilibrate the gas begin mov ax mov bh mov dh mov dl mov cx int mov ah mov bh mov dh mov dl int call initgas call showgas mov ah int push cx mov cx times call iterate call invertall call showgas mov ah int cmp al jne begin0 mov si cs srcptr xor byte ptr cs si begin0 mov cx times call iterateuntil call invertall call showgas mov ax c00h int code ends end start xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt comp org eff talk path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu husc news harvard edu zariski kubo newsgroups sci crypt comp org eff talk subject re illegal wiretaps was denning trust message id apr6 husc3 harvard edu from kubo zariski harvard edu tal kubo date apr edt references apr3 qualcomm com apr3 husc3 harvard edu ppg02 i2k bigboote wpi edu distribution inet organization dept of math harvard univ nntp posting host zariski harvard edu lines in article ppg02 i2k bigboote wpi edu ear bigwpi wpi edu mr neat tm writes it is apparently quite easy to get hold of person calling records through the phone company police and some lawyers are able to acquire such information without any warrant or judicial supervision whether or not the target is suspected of specific crimes pardon me but isn this very illegal was under the impression that warrent is needed to get this information out of the phone company in order to protect people privacy legal or not ve seen it done phone records were obtained in order to establish probable cause rather than as result of it in other words for fishing expedition local worcester ma police officer spoke with only couple of nights ago told me that they usually only subpeona the phone companies records in extreme conditions because it so much of hassle and does the phone company require written subpoena able evidence of probable cause in order to process the request suggest that the officer was disinterested in pursuing your case even if you could prove the offender had called you at certain time your chances of winning harassment suit on the strength of this evidence are nil my contact with several people who have dealt with cases of extreme phone harassment several thousand calls in one case teaches me that police in this area are quite lethargic about pursuing such matters tal newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net newsserver jvnc net yale edu ira uka de news dfn de rzsun2 informatik uni hamburg de fbihh bontchev from bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de vesselin bontchev subject re licensing of public key implementations message id bontchev fbihh sender news informatik uni hamburg de mr news reply to bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de organization virus test center university of hamburg references dockmaster ncsc mil strnlghtc4yzdu pa netcom com date tue apr gmt lines strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes will provide one hint it is reported that rsa expressed puzzlement at their conference that nobody has asked for permission to use ripem to write pgp compatible program this actually supports bill speculation if there is backdoor in rsaref and if pkp is supported secretly by the nsa then it is more than natural that they will welcome any public key implementation that uses rsaref and will strongly oppose themselves against any implementation that doesn personally cannot see how one could put backdoor in long precision modular arithmetic library that comes in source but of course the fact that cannot see it means nothing regards vesselin vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center university of hamburg tel fax fachbereich informatik agn pgp public key available on request vogt koelln strasse rm mail bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de hamburg germany newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net wupost uunet math fu berlin de ifmsun8 ifm uni hamburg de rzsun2 informatik uni hamburg de fbihh bontchev from bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de vesselin bontchev subject re opinions of rc2 alg message id bontchev fbihh sender news informatik uni hamburg de mr news reply to bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de organization virus test center university of hamburg references dockmaster ncsc mil date tue apr gmt lines markowitz dockmaster ncsc mil writes it is interesting to note in this regard that permission to export pkzip encryption scheme has twice been denied by nsa draw you own conclusions uh afraid that your information is slightly out of date pkware has obtained license to export their program to the whole world except very limited list of countries draw your own conclusions about the strength of the algorithm regards vesselin vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center university of hamburg tel fax fachbereich informatik agn pgp public key available on request vogt koelln strasse rm mail bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de hamburg germany newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net gatech enterpoop mit edu ira uka de news dfn de rzsun2 informatik uni hamburg de fbihh bontchev from bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de vesselin bontchev subject re disk safety measure message id bontchev fbihh sender news informatik uni hamburg de mr news reply to bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de organization virus test center university of hamburg references c4zqna a7 panix com apr5 ucsu colorado edu date tue apr gmt lines cuffell spot colorado edu tim cuffel writes there is no guarantee that the deleted space would be overwritten during optimization likely but no guarantee quicker and more secure method would be batch file that overwrote all of your free space for example fill bat echo out fill bat this is off the top of my head include std disclaimer it is much easier faster and probably even more secure to use norton utilties talking ibm pc here and to tell wipeinfo to clean the free disk space and clean the slack space at the end of the files use to government standard option for more careful overwriting regards vesselin vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center university of hamburg tel fax fachbereich informatik agn pgp public key available on request vogt koelln strasse rm mail bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de hamburg germany newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net wupost gumby yale cs yale edu news mail gateway daemon from whmurray dockmaster ncsc mil subject licensing message id dockmaster ncsc mil sender whmurray issa dockmaster ncsc mil organization yale cs mail news gateway date tue apr gmt lines this actually supports bill speculation if there is backdoor in rsaref and if pkp is supported secretly by the nsa then it is more than natural that they will welcome any public key implementation that uses rsaref and will strongly oppose themselves against any implementation that doesn my speculation does not include or depend upon trapdoor in rsaref do not believe that rsa would consent to such however there are other limitation in the concept of rsaref in which nsa has an interest it has an interest in limited number of implementations targets it has an interest in fixed key or maximum modulus size it has legitimate literally right to pursue such interests within bounds it probably has right to pursue those interests by covert means at least it has the same right as the rest of us not to disclose all of its motives and intentions institutions are not self aware they do not know their intentions in any meaningful sense william hugh murray executive consultant information system security locust avenue suite new canaan connecticut att wmurray whmurray at dockmaster ncsc mil newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov ames data nas nasa gov taligent tom vanvleck taligent com user from tom van vleck taligent com tom van vleck subject re looking for one way trap door password encryption etc algorithms message id tom van vleck tom vanvleck taligent com followup to sci crypt sci math sender usenet taligent com more bytes than you can read organization references mar30 husc3 harvard edu distribution usa date mon apr gmt lines michael levin wrote am looking for references to algorithms which can be used for password encryption someone has clear text word runs it through the algorithm and it becomes some other sequence of symbols want this algorithm to have the property that it is next to impossible to reverse and would take too long to try all possible words to see which one works even by use of high speed computer please send references or ideas to mlevin husc8 harvard edu the original one way encryption put into multics about as suggested by joe weizenbaum was invertible an air force tiger team demonstrated this to me in may then asked an expert who requested anonymity what should use instead the expert suggestion was to treat the byte password as both key and data for the lucifer encryption algorithm which is similar or identical to des this method or something stronger should take care of issue is discussed in comp security misc longer passwords and quality control on what users can choose as passwords are the common tactics tom vanvleck taligent com newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet decwrl pa dec com engage pko dec com cthulu enet dec com yerazunis from yerazunis cthulu enet dec com subject re hard drive security for fbi targets message id apr6 engage pko dec com sender newsdaemon engage pko dec com usenet news daemon organization turing police date tue apr gmt lines cme ellisun sw stratus com carl ellison writes for example if had program on my disk which created totally random files looking like encrypted messages and could demonstrate that the file in question could have been created by that program then my claim that it was in fact created by that program must stand as true since innocent unless someone can prove me wrong hmmm that brings up neat idea unfortunately it sooo neat think ought to patent it so can tell you about it sorry bill copyright william yerazunis aka crah the merciless all rights reserved no responsibility taken love the smell of flash powder in the morning it smells like like theatre path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech howland reston ans net bogus sura net darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet decwrl pacbell com pacbell osc jgk from jgk osc com joe keane newsgroups sci crypt subject re hard drive security for fbi targets summary encrypted data looks random keywords entropy message id osc com date apr gmt references pfq7p transfer stratus com c4u3a6 b7 cs uiuc edu apr2 ucsu colorado edu reply to joe keane jgk osc com organization versant object technology lines weather mostly cloudy high low moon phase waxing gibbous of full in article apr2 ucsu colorado edu cuffell spot colorado edu tim cuffel writes how about this create bunch of sets of random data and encrypt it keep only one of the sets of random data around to show that encypt random data for kicks the rest delete with their keys tell all my friends think this establishes reasonable doubt about the contents of any encrypted files and my ability to provides keys since anyone could do this any law that forces user to provide keys on demand is worthless the law is much worse than worthless it gives police the power to put innocent people in jail because they the police find something they don understand most police don know what the return key does never mind the difference between core file and classified military secrets there are plenty of scenarios where the user would have no idea what something is either it could be uninitialized junk the burden of proof is on the user to show that it something normal upstanding citizen should have no one should ever be put in that situation especially in america what disgusting about this is how easily most people go along with it to provide bargaining chip against some hypothetical alleged child molester or drug dealer or whatever bad thing is in style at the time basically most people don have clear distinction between criminals and suspects as an analogy it like they find loose screw in your house and they insist that you re building bomb or machine gun they ask you where it came from like you know and ask you to prove your claim when you explain it in such simple terms people may start to get the idea as matter of fact do keep random files on my disk the reason is without special purpose hardware it takes long time to generate good random bits have programs that crank out couple bits per minute which is pretty conservative but over time that more than need if you think about it there no point in actually encrypting random data because it just gives you different random data if you want some data to look like an encrypted file you just put an appropriate header on it if enough people do this some of them will be put in jail when you get arrested and the police ask for your keys you can tell them it just random junk although of course they won believe you while you re sitting in jail you can take consolation in the fact that the government will burn few cpu years trying to find something that not there joe keane amateur cryptologist jgk osc com uunet amdcad osc jgk newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net agate doc ic ac uk pipex bnr co uk demon gtoal from graham toal gtoal gtoal com subject re hard drive security for fbi targets message id c52t2c kf demon co uk originator gtoal pizzabox demon co uk keywords entropy sender news demon co uk nntp posting host pizzabox demon co uk reply to graham toal gtoal gtoal com organization cuddlehogs anonymous references c4u3a6 b7 cs uiuc edu apr2 ucsu colorado edu osc com date tue apr gmt lines in article osc com joe keane jgk osc com writes as matter of fact do keep random files on my disk the reason is without special purpose hardware it takes long time to generate good random bits have programs that crank out couple bits per minute which is pretty conservative but over time that more than need sounds like useful program interested in posting it to alt sources path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net noc near net transfer stratus com ellisun sw stratus com cme from cme ellisun sw stratus com carl ellison newsgroups sci crypt subject re hard drive security date apr gmt organization stratus computer software engineering lines message id psrgi sd transfer stratus com references c4u3tf l7q telebit com c4uior e3z news claremont edu m5c5fkj rpi edu nntp posting host ellisun sw stratus com keywords cooperation in article m5c5fkj rpi edu antonh rpi edu writes say can anyone send my info on how to encrpyt hard disk ps would also like know the consequences of those types of actions if so chose to do them in the future in this country and european countries people have been encrypting notes in their notebooks for hundreds of years maybe over thousand it long tradition dating at least back to the alchemists know of nothing bad happening to them would assume that nothing bad would happen to you given this long history establishing encryption as the property of individuals to do with as they please disclaimer all opinions expressed are my own of course carl ellison cme sw stratus com stratus computer inc m3 bkw tel fairbanks boulevard marlborough ma fax path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net noc near net transfer stratus com ellisun sw stratus com cme from cme ellisun sw stratus com carl ellison newsgroups sci crypt subject re licensing of public key implementations date apr gmt organization stratus computer software engineering lines message id pssee h9 transfer stratus com references dockmaster ncsc mil apr4 magnus acs ohio state edu nntp posting host ellisun sw stratus com in article apr4 magnus acs ohio state edu jebright magnus acs ohio state edu james ebright writes guess we will have to wait for the time in the far future when everyone uses such good crypto that the nsa has no job then the agency will be disbanded and its files opened after the approprate historical delay you ve overlooked fundamental truth both headcount and budget of any government agency are monotonic increasing functions given that truth you need to look for what the agency can do to occupy all those people and spend all that money when crypto is unbreakable perhaps they could talk the world telephone companies into making equipment they could break into and tap maybe they could convince people that distributed computing was good idea so that even the internal state of process would be available for access by wiretapping maybe disclaimer all opinions expressed are my own of course carl ellison cme sw stratus com stratus computer inc m3 bkw tel fairbanks boulevard marlborough ma fax newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net wupost uunet nwnexus amc gw thebes ole ray from ray ole cdac com ray berry subject re hard drive security for fbi targets message id apr6 ole cdac com organization cascade design automation references c4tnm5 oa cs uiuc edu pfq7p transfer stratus com c4u3a6 b7 cs uiuc edu apr2 ucsu colorado edu apr3 infodev cam ac uk date tue apr gmt lines rja14 cl cam ac uk ross anderson writes in article apr2 ucsu colorado edu cuffell spot colorado edu tim cuffel writes this suggests new pc security product design approach first fill the hard drive with random files and files encrypted under number of known keys then whenever new secret file is created you delete random file and replace it with real encrypted data new non secret files are encrypted under known key better yet instead of thrashing around on the dos file system take it step further write yourself minimal file system program that is used to create delete files en decrypt them to ramdisk list directory put the util password protected on floppy the catch is that the storage space used by this util is not part of the dos file system instead defrag your disk thus packing all allocated clusters into clusters then use the back end of the partition to hold your stealth file system or leave small nd partition on the disk that is not assigned to dos another approach might be to use directory that contains set of invariant files dos system files for instance due to dos allocating minimum storage unit of cluster there is unused physical space on the disk between the tail end of each file and the end of its associated cluster these dead spaces could be concatenated and used to hold your stealth file system now you have situation where no encrypted data appears on your disk at all ray berry kb7ht ray ole cdac com rjberry eskimo com compuserve com newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net wupost psuvax1 eiffel cs psu edu so from so eiffel cs psu edu nicol so subject re source of random bits on unix workstation message id c5ja6s a59 cs psu edu sender news cs psu edu usenet nntp posting host eiffel cs psu edu organization penn state computer science references pivot sbi com date thu apr gmt lines in article pivot sbi com bet sbi com bennett todd salomon brothers inc ny writes this came up because decided to configure up mit magic cookie security for x11r5 for this to work you need to stick some bits that an intruder can guess in file readable only by you which client applications read they pass the bits back to the server when they want to establish connection what settled on was grabbing bunch of traffic off the network basically ran etherfind greater compress and skipped over of output then grabbed my bits as best can tell these are bits that can be expected to be reasonably uniformly distributed and quite unguessable by an intruder for your application what you can do is to encrypt the real time clock value with secret key path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net sol ctr columbia edu news cs columbia edu ji from ji cs columbia edu john ioannidis newsgroups sci crypt subject re source of random bits on unix workstation message id c5jp0k p5 cs columbia edu date apr gmt article cs c5jp0k p5 references pivot sbi com c5ja6s a59 cs psu edu sender news cs columbia edu the daily news organization columbia university department of computer science lines in article c5ja6s a59 cs psu edu so eiffel cs psu edu nicol so writes in article pivot sbi com bet sbi com bennett todd salomon brothers inc ny writes this came up because decided to configure up mit magic cookie security for x11r5 for this to work you need to stick some bits that an intruder can guess in file readable only by you which client applications read they pass the bits back to the server when they want to establish connection what settled on was grabbing bunch of traffic off the network basically ran etherfind greater compress and skipped over of output then grabbed my bits as best can tell these are bits that can be expected to be reasonably uniformly distributed and quite unguessable by an intruder for your application what you can do is to encrypt the real time clock value with secret key for good discussion of cryptographically good random number generators check out the draft ietf security randomness txt internet draft available at your local friendly internet drafts repository reasonably source of randomness is the output of cryptographic hash function md5 when fed with large amount of more or less random data for example running md5 on dev mem is slow but random enough source of random bits there are bound to be bits of entropy in the tens or hundreds of megabytes of data in modern workstation memory as fair amount of them are system timers buffers etc ji newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu ncar csn qwerty gw fsl noaa gov kestrel fsl noaa gov bear from bear kestrel fsl noaa gov bear giles subject re fifth amendment and passwords message id apr15 fsl noaa gov sender news fsl noaa gov usenet news system organization forecast systems labs noaa boulder co usa references apr15 magnus acs ohio state edu date thu apr gmt lines in article apr15 magnus acs ohio state edu ashall magnus acs ohio state edu andrew hall writes am postive someone will correct me if am wrong but doesn the fifth also cover not being forced to do actions that are self incriminating the police couldn demand that you silently take them to where the body is buried or where the money is hidden but they can make you piss in jar and possibly provide dna semen and hair samples or to undergo tests for gunpowder residues on your hand btw that was why the chemical engineer arrested in the wtc explosion thrust his hands into toilet filled with urine as the cops were breaking down the door the nitrogen in the urine would mask any residue from explosives found it interesting the news reported his acts but not his reasons somewhere perhaps privacy group they discussed the legal ramifications of using password like shot jimmy hoffa and his body is in storage locker in camden while back the impression got was that real judges would dismiss arguments that this password is self incrimination as first year law school sophistry the fact that you use statement for password has no bearing on the veracity of that phrase you are not being asked to incrimidate yourself where did you bury the body you are being asked to provide information necessary to execute legal search warrant refusing to provide the password is akin to refusing to provide key to storage locker except that they could always force their way into the locker of course that doesn mean you have to help them understand what they find or point out things they overlooked in their search bear giles bear fsl noaa gov xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp org eff talk sci crypt newsgroups comp org eff talk sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc sdd hp com network ucsd edu munnari oz au uniwa cujo cc curtin edu au zrepachol from zrepachol cc curtin edu au paul repacholi subject what is going on message id apr16 cc curtin edu au lines sender news cujo curtin edu au news manager organization curtin university of technology references apr14 mnemosyne cs du edu qhc2p d8 transfer stratus com distribution inet date thu apr gmt in article qhc2p d8 transfer stratus com cme ellisun sw stratus com carl ellison writes in article apr14 mnemosyne cs du edu rwebb nyx cs du edu russell webb writes call me paranoid but this is the same kind of scare story which dorothy denning was citing while calling for the limitation of cryptography doubt that dd is behind this but suspect that the fbi and maybe nsa are behind dd and those agencies could easily be mounting nationwide campaign with our tax dollars to build up public outcry against digital communication especially against unbreakable encrypted communication what going on here haven you read any of noam chomsky works widely used information net outside the control of the right people is unthinkable hundreds of billions of dollars will be spent to wipe it out sorry regulate and order it once the major media and poitical powers wake up to the efect it can have if you can be bothered reading get the video manufacturing consent paul path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu utnut nott cunews revcan balsam uuisis tanda marc from marc tanda isis org marc thibault newsgroups sci crypt subject re hard drive security for fbi targets message id dn5 tanda isis org date wed apr references c4uior e3z news claremont edu c4ukkz g6 telebit com bu edu apr13 yuma acns colostate edu reply to marc tanda isis org distribution world organization thibault friends lines do straight encryption of your keyrings and put the results with misleading names somewhere they won be noticed eg in the windows directory nobody knows what half those files are do straight encryption of bat file that will decrypt the keyrings to ramdisk and will set pgppath to point at it set up another bat file to decrypt and execute the first again on ram disk have it take the name of the target file as an argument so that there is no link between this file and the non existent batch file referred to by the rest of the system comment it so it looks like test script for fooling around with pgp set pgppath to the pgp directory leave the original keyrings that came with pgp in the directory with pgp good indication that you are playing with but haven made serious use of pgp add set of keys with your name and really simple passphrase never use it or use it as your widely published key for low security mail when needed run the second bat file make sure all intermediate and plainfiles are generated on ramdisk when you hear the concussion grenade hit the power switch cheers marc marc thibault cis put another log marc tanda isis org nc freenet aa185 on the fire begin pgp public key block version mqbnaiqxytkaaaecalfehyp0yc80s1scfvjspj5escao hihtnefrrn vuecsavh aauwpiugyv2n8n lftpnnlc42ms c8pjupykvi8abrg0i01hcmmgvghpymf1bhqg pg1hcmnadgfuzgeuaxnpcy5vcmc hlnv end pgp public key block xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt security pgp sci crypt comp sys mac apps newsgroups alt security pgp sci crypt comp sys mac apps path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net gatech news feed peachnet edu umn edu csus edu netcom com grady from grady netcom com ef221 subject source to mactinosh pgp in available message id gradyc5jq9r huo netcom com organization capriccioso newsreader tin version pl6 date thu apr gmt lines source code to macintosh pgp now available via anonymous ftp ftp netcom com cd pub grady mget macpgp2 src sea hqx mget macpgp2 srcsignature convert to compact pro self extracting archive with binhex if appropriate check the digital signature of the hqx file with your copy of pgp non macintosh users wishing to check the digital signature please note that cr denotes the end of line on macintosh not lf or crlf for the purposes of the itar act this unclassified technical documentation is hereby released into the public domain however no representation is made as to copyright or other commercial rights that may exist in this package full source code symantec think projects and full user documentation is included for both and versions of pretty good privacy strong public key encryption and digital signature application using the rsa algorithm patented in the united states and the idea cipher patented in switzerland no executables are included executables are available via anonymous ftp from leif thep lu se sweden night nig ac jp japan van bc wimsey bc ca canada soda berkeley edu of berkeley src doc ic ac uk united kingdom ghost dsi unimi it italy plaza aarnet edu au australia nic funet fi finland other public keys are available from anonymous server sites send message subject help for more information internet sites pgp public keys junkbox cc iastate edu michael graff explorer iastate edu ftp tbird cc iastate edu usr explorer public keys pgp pgp public keys toxicwaste mit edu derek atkins warlord mit edu ftp toxicwaste mit edu pub keys public keys pgp pgp public keys phil utmb edu john perry perry phil utmb edu ftp phil utmb edu pub pgp public keys pgp pgp public keys demon co uk mark turner mark demon co uk ftp ftp demon co uk pub pgp pubring pgp uucp site pgp public keys jpunix com john perry perry jpunix com the executable application built from these sources has not been licensed by rsa data security inc nor has the rsa public key algorithm or the idea block cipher algorithm been approved by the national security agency this unclassified technical documentation is made available for educational use only possession distribution or use of an executable binary built from this source may be civil or criminal offense suggested improvements bugs or comments should be directly posted to alt security pgp or to the principal developers listed among the source documents general questions and comments about public key cryptography or the idea cipher may be posted to alt security pgp or to the sci crypt usenet groups grady netcom com ef221 e2 ad d3 d1 c6 f3 fc ac f7 newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu cs uiuc edu kadie from kadie cs uiuc edu carl kadie subject re fifth amendment and passwords message id c5jzsz jzo cs uiuc edu organization university of illinois dept of comp sci urbana il references apr15 magnus acs ohio state edu date fri apr gmt lines ashall magnus acs ohio state edu andrew hall writes am postive someone will correct me if am wrong but doesn the fifth also cover not being forced to do actions that are self incriminating from mike godwin mnemonic eff org posted with permission carl sadly it does not suspects can be compelled to give handwriting and voice exemplars and to take blood and dna tests the police couldn demand that you silently take them to where the body is buried or where the money is hidden no but they could compell you to produce the key to safe where as it happens evidence that will convict you is stored the crypto key disclosure issue hasn come up yet but current law suggests that it loser for the defendant he ll be compelled to turn over the key the test for compelled self incrimination is whether the material to be disclosed in itself tends to inculpate the discloser in the example gave above the safe key itself has no testimonial value ergo it can be disclosed under compulsion subpoena duces tecum moreover the government can always immunize the disclosure of crypto key compelling you to disclose the key at the price of not using the fact of your disclosure as evidence in the case against you of course they can use whatever they discover as result of this disclosure against you mike carl kadie do not represent any organization this is just me kadie cs uiuc edu xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp org eff talk news admin policy comp admin policy sci crypt newsgroups comp org eff talk news admin policy comp admin policy sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com portal natasha bob from bob natasha portal com bob cain subject re pgp pem and rfc was cryptography patents message id apr16 natasha portal com followup to comp org eff talk news admin policy comp admin policy sci crypt organization oce graphics usa newsreader tin version pl7 references apr10 umr edu date fri apr gmt lines charles kincy ckincy cs umr edu wrote all have to say is yeah right if you re willing to pay them mucho big bucks and or use the routines they tell you to do doesn sound very reasonable to me all have to say is this is full of shit have negotiated license and the bucks are incredibly reasonable with an upfront charge on sliding scale depending on your capitalization if you are startup and can afford it you can afford to start up in the first place why do people insist on making unequivocal statements about that which they know nothing but don guess pkp and rsa are interested in big bucks maybe they have some other agenda secure communications only for government agents perhaps have you considered treatment for paranoia the government is the single biggest thorn in rsa side some limitation let me guess don use the code in any way pkp or rsa doesn like such as providing secure communications for the average citizen that was exactly its purpose if you know anything about it there is nothing at all preventing the average citizen using it only selling it hope my cynicism is misplaced here go ahead not afraid to be wrong every once in while but have an uneasy feeling that am right it is and you are wrong yet you emotionally state bunch of crap as fact with tiny disclaimer at the end check your facts first and grow up why is there such strong correlation between interest in cryptography and immaturity wonder bob cain normally rcain netcom com xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt privacy alt answers sci answers news answers path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net pad thai aktis com pad thai aktis com not for mail from ld231782 longs lance colostate edu detweiler newsgroups sci crypt alt privacy alt answers sci answers news answers subject privacy anonymity on the internet faq of supersedes net privacy part1 gza com followup to poster date apr organization tmp enterprises lines sender faqserv gza com approved news answers request mit edu expires may gmt message id net privacy part1 gza com reply to ld231782 longs lance colostate edu nntp posting host pad thai aktis com summary email and account privacy anonymous mailing and posting encryption and other privacy and rights issues associated with use of the internet and global networks in general last updated archive name net privacy part1 last modified version identity privacy and anonymity on the internet detweiler not for commercial use except by permission from author otherwise may be freely copied not to be altered please credit if quoted summary information on email and account privacy anonymous mailing and posting encryption and other privacy and rights issues associated with use of the internet and global networks in general search for for exact section search for underline for next section part this file identity what is identity on the internet why is identity un important on the internet how does my email address not identify me and my background how can find out more about somebody from their email address why is identification un stable on the internet what is the future of identification on the internet privacy what is privacy on the internet why is privacy un important on the internet how in secure are internet networks how in secure is my account how in secure are my files and directories how in secure is windows how in secure is my email how am not liable for my email and postings how do provide more less information to others on my identity who is my sysadmin what does he know about me why is privacy un stable on the internet what is the future of privacy on the internet anonymity what is anonymity on the internet why is anonymity un important on the internet how can anonymity be protected on the internet what is anonymous mail what is anonymous posting why is anonymity un stable on the internet what is the future of anonymity on the internet part next file resources what unix programs are related to privacy how can learn about or use cryptography what is the cypherpunks mailing list what are some privacy related newsgroups faqs what is internet privacy enhanced mail pem what are other request for comments rfcs related to privacy how can run an anonymous remailer what are references on privacy in email what are some email usenet and internet use policies what is the mit crosslink anonymous message tv program miscellaneous what is digital cash what is hacker or cracker what is cypherpunk what is steganography and anonymous pools what is security through obscurity what are identity daemons what standards are needed to guard electronic privacy issues what is the electronic frontier foundation eff who are computer professionals for social responsibility cpsr what was operation sun devil and the steve jackson game case what is integrated services digital network isdn what is the national research and education network nren what is the fbi proposed digital telephony act what other legislation is related to privacy on networks what are references on rights in cyberspace what is the computers and academic freedom caf archive footnotes what is the background behind the internet how is internet anarchy like the english language most wanted list change history part last file anonymizing what are some known anonymous remailing and posting sites what are the responsibilities associated with anonymity how do kill anonymous postings what is the history behind anonymous posting servers what is the value of anonymity should anonymous posting to all groups be allowed what should system operators do with anonymous postings what is going on with anon penet fi maintained by helsingius identity what is identity on the internet generally today people identity on the internet is primarily determined by their email address in the sense that this is their most unchanging face in the electronic realm this is your login name qualified by the complete address domain information for example ld231782 longs lance colostate edu people see this address when receiving mail or reading usenet posts from you and in other situations where programs record usage some obsolete forms of addresses such as bitnet still persist in email messages additional information on the path that message takes is prepended to the message received by the recipient this information identifies the chain of hosts involved in the transmission and is very accurate trace of its origination this type of identify and forward protocol is also used in the usenet protocol to lesser extent forging these fields requires corrupted mailing software at sites involved in the forwarding and is very uncommon not so uncommon is forging the chain at the origination point so that all initial sites in the list are faked at the time the message is created tracing these messages can be difficult or impossible when the initial faked fields are names of real machines and represent real transfer routes why is identity un important on the internet the concept of identity is closely intertwined with communication privacy and security which in turn are all critical aspects of computer networks for example the convenience of communication afforded by email would be impossible without conventions for identification but there are many potential abuses of identity possible that can have very severe consequences with massive computer networks at the forefront of the issue which can potentially either exacerbate or solve these problems verifying that an identity is correct is called authentication and one classic example of the problems associated with it is well war of the worlds radio broadcast that fooled segments of the population into thinking that an alien invasion was in progress hoaxes of this order are not uncommon on usenet and forged identities makes them more insidious people and their reputations can be assaulted by forgery however the fluidity of identity on the internet is for some one of its most attractive features identity is just as useful as it is harmful professor might carefully explain topic until he finds he is talking to an undergraduate person of particular occupation may be able to converse with others who might normally shun him some prejudices are erased but on the other hand many prejudices are useful scientist might argue he can better evaluate the findings of paper as reviewer if he knows more about the authors likewise he may be more likely to reject it based on unfair or irrelevant criteria on the other side of the connection the author may find identities of reviewers useful in exerting pressure for acceptance identity is especially crucial in establishing and regulating credit not necessarily financial and ownership and usage many functions in society demand reliable and accurate techniques for identification heavy reliance will be placed on digital authentication as global economies become increasingly electronic many government functions and services are based on identification and law enforcement frequently hinges on it hence employees of many government organizations push toward stronger identification structures but when does identification invade privacy the growth of the internet is provoking social forces of massive proportions decisions made now on issues of identity will affect many future users especially as the network becomes increasingly global universal widespread and entrenched and the positive or adverse affects of these actions intended and inadvertent will literally be magnified exponentially how does my email address not identify me and my background your email address may contain information that influences people perceptions of your background the address may identify you as from department at particular university an employee at company or government worker it may contain your last name initials or cryptic identification codes independent of both in the us some are based on parts of social security numbers others are in the form u2338 where the number is incremented in the order that new users are added to the system standard internet addresses also can contain information on your broad geographical location or nationhood however none of this information is guaranteed to be correct or be there at all the fields in the domain qualification of the username are based on rather arbitrary organization such as mostly invisible network cabling distributions the only point to make is that early fields in the address are more specific such as specific computer names or local networks and the later ones the most general such as continental domains typically the first field is the name of the computer receiving mail gleaning information from the email address alone is sometimes an inspired art or an inconsistent and futile exercise for more information see the faqs on email addresses and known geographical distributions below however unix utilities exist to aid in the quest see the question on this common suffixes us united states uk united kingdom ca canada fi finland au australia edu university or college com commercial organization org other nonprofit organization gov government mil military site how can find out more about somebody with given email address one simple way is to send email to that address asking another way is to send mail to the postmaster at that address postmaster address although the postmaster job is more to help find user id of particular people given their real name and solve mail routing problems the sysadmin root address may also be able to supply information users with related email address may have information however all of these methods rely on the time and patience of others so use them minimally one of the most basic tools for determining identity over the internet is the unix utility finger the basic syntax is finger user here there everywhere this utility uses communication protocols to query the computer named in the address for information on the user named the response is generated completely by the receiving computer and may be in any format possible responses are as follows message unknown host meaning some aspect of the address is incorrect two lines with no information and message in real life in which case the receiving computer could not find any kind of match on the username the finger utility may return this response in other situations listing of information associated with multiple users some computers will search only for matching user ids others will attempt to find the username you specified as substring of all actual full names of users kept in local database at some sites finger can be used to get list of all users on the system with finger address in general this is often considered weak security however because attackers know valid user id to crack passwords more information on the fields returned by finger is given below more information on finger and locating people email addresses is given in the email faq such as the whois lookup utility just as you can use these means to find out about others they can use them to find out about you you can finger yourself to find out what is publicly reported by your unix system about you be careful when modifying finger data virtually anyone with internet access worldwide can query this information in one amazing case the new york times writer markoff uncovered the identity of morris author of the internet worm through the use of an anonymous tip and finger see the book cyberspace by hafner and markoff why is identification un stable on the internet generally identity is an amorphous and almost nonexistent concept on the internet for variety of reasons one is the inherent fluidity of cyberspace where people emerge and submerge frequently and absences are not readily noted in the community most people remember faces and voices the primary means of casual identification in the real world the arbitary and cryptic sequences of letters and digits comprising most email addresses are not particularly noticeable or memorable and far from unique identification of an individual who may use multiple accounts on multiple machines anywhere in the world currently internet users do not really have any great assurances that the messages in email and usenet are from who they appear to be person mailing address is far from an identification of an individual anyone with access to the account they know the password either legitimately or otherwise can send mail with that address in the from line email addresses for an individual tend to change frequently as they switch jobs or make moves inside their organizations as part of current mailing protocol standards forging the from line in mail messages is fairly trivial operation for many hackers the status and path information prepended to messages by intermediate hosts is generally unforgeable in general while possible forgeries are fairly rare on most newsgroups and in email besides these pathological cases abve there are many basic problems with today internet protocols affecting identification on the internet internet mail standards described in rfc are still evolving rapidly and not entirely orderly for example standards for mail address munging or parsing tend to vary slightly between sites and frequently mean the difference between finding addresses and bouncing mail domain names and computer names are frequently changed at sites and there are delays in the propagation of this data addresses cannot be resolved when certain critical computers crash such as the receiving computer or other computers involved in resolving names into addresses called nameservers whole slew of problems is associated with nameservers if they are not updated they will not find name addresses and even the operation of what constitutes updating has different interpretations at different sites the current internet mailing and addressing protocols are slightly anachronistic in that they were created when the network was somewhat obscure and not widespread with only fraction of the traffic it now sees today large proportion of internet traffic is email comprising millions of messages what is the future of identification on the internet some new technologies and standards are introducing facial images and voice messages into mail and these will improve the sense of community that comes from the familiarity of identification however they are not currently widespread require large amounts of data transfer standardized software and make some compromises in privacy promising new cryptographic techniques may make digital signatures and digital authentication common see below also the trend in usenet standards is toward greater authentication of posted information on the other hand advances in ensuring anonymity such as remailers are forthcoming see below privacy what is privacy on the internet generally while privacy has multiple connotations in society and perhaps even more on the internet in cyberspace most take it to mean that you have exclusive use and access to your account and the data stored on and and directed to it such as email and you do not encounter arbitrary restrictions or searches in other words others may obtain data associated with your account but not without your permission these ideas are probably both fairly limiting and liberal in their scope in what most internet users consider their private domains some users don expect or want any privacy some expect and demand it why is privacy un important on the internet this is somewhat debatable and inflammatory topic arousing passionate opinions on the internet some take privacy for granted and are rudely surprised to find it tenuous or nonexistent most governments have rules that protect privacy such as the illegal search and seizure clause of the constitution adopted by others but have many that are antithetical to it such as laws prohibiting secret communications or allowing wiretapping these rules generally carry over to the internet with few specific rules governing it however the legal repercussions of the global internet are still largely unknown and untested no strong legal precedents and court cases the fact that internet traffic frequently passes past international boundaries and is not centrally managed significantly complicates and strongly discourages its regulation how in secure are internet networks theoretically people at any site in the chain of sites with access to hardware and network media that transmits data over the internet could potentially monitor or archive it however the sheer volume and general noise inherent to this data makes these scenarios highly improbable even by government agencies with supposedly vast funding and resources technologies exist to tap magnetic fields given off by electrical wires without detection less obscurely any machine with network connection is potential station for traffic detection but this scenario requires knowledge and access to very low level hardware the network card to pursue if even possible company network general inc is one of many that manufactures and markets sophisticated network monitoring tools that can filter and read packets by arbitrary criteria for troubleshooting purposes but the cost of this type of device is prohibitive for casual use known instances of the above types of security breaches at major scale such as at network hubs are very rare the greatest risks tend to emerge locally note that all these approaches are almost completely defused with the use of cryptography how in secure is my account by default not very there are multitude of factors that may reinforce or compromise aspects of your privacy on the internet first your account must be secure from other users the universal system is to use password but if it is weak easy to guess this security is significantly diminished somewhat surprisingly and frighteningly to some certain users of the system particularly the administrator generally have unlimited access regardless of passwords and may grant that access to others this means that they may read any file in your account without detection furthermore not universally known most unix systems keep fairly extensive accounting records of when and where you logged in what commands you execute and when they are executed in fact login information is usually public most features of this auditing or process accounting information are enabled by default after the initial installation and the system administrator may customize it to strengthen or weaken it to satisfy performance or privacy aims this information is frequently consulted for troubleshooting purposes and may otherwise be ignored this data tracks unsuccessful login attempts and other suspicious activities on the system traditional part of the unix system that tracks user commands is easily circumvented by the user with the use of symbolic links described in man ln unix implementations vary widely particularly in tracking features and new sophisticated mechanisms are introduced by companies regularly typically system adminstrators augment the basic unix functionality with public domain programs and locally developed tools for monitoring and use them only to isolate suspicious activity as it arises remote accesses to the passwd file incorrect login attempts remote connection attempts etc generally you should expect little privacy on your account for various reasons potentially every keystroke you type could be intercepted by someone else system administrators make extensive backups that are completely invisible to users which may record the states of an account over many weeks erased files can under many operating systems be undeleted most automated services keep logs of use for troubleshooting or otherwise for example ftp sites usually log the commands and record the domain originations of users including anonymous ones some software exacerbates these problems see the section on windows in security indepedent of malevolent administrators are fellow users much more commonly harmful threat there are multiple ways to help ensure that your account will not be accessed by others and compromises can often be traced to failures in these guidelines choose secure password change it periodically make sure to logout always do not leave machine unattended for long make sure no one watches you when you type your password avoid password references in email be conservative in the use of the rhost file use utilities like xlock to protect station but be considerate be wary of situations where you think you should supply your password there are only several basic situations where unix prompts you for password when you are logging in to system or changing your password situations can arise in which prompts for passwords are forged by other users especially in cases where you are talking to them such as internet relay chat also be aware that forged login screens are one method to illegitimately obtain passwords thanks to jim mattson mattson cs ucsd edu for contributions here how in secure are my files and directories the most important privacy considerations are related to file rights and many lapses can be traced to their misunderstood nature or haphazard maintenance be aware of the rights associated with your files and directories in unix if the execute right on your parent directory is off for users groups and other these users cannot gain information on anything in your directories anything less may allow others to read change or even delete files in your home directory the rights on directory supersede the rights associated with files in that directory for directory means that access to the files or subdirectories in the directory is possible if you know their names to list the contents of the directory however requires the right by default most accounts are accessable only to the owner but the initial configuration varies between sites based on administrator preference the default file mode specifies the initial rights associated with newly created files and can be set in the shell with umask the details of rights implementations tend to vary between versions of unix consult man pages on chmod and ls examples traver lance ls ld drwx ld231782 jan users ld231782 here is listing of the rights associated with user home directory denoted by the columns at the left identify what rights are available the first column identifies the entry as directory and the next three columns mean that read write and execute rights respectively are permitted for that user for directories the right means that contents file and subdirectory names within that directory can be listed the subsequent columns indicate that no other users have any rights to anything in the directory tree originating at that point they can even see any lower files or subdirectories the hierarchy is completely invisible to them traver lance ls msg rw ld231782 jan msg traver lance chmod rw msg traver lance ls msg rw ld231782 jan msg here the modes on the file msg were changed to take away rights from group and other note that ls file requires both the right to get the list of files and subdirectories and the right to access the files and subdirectories in order to get their size etc for example suppose the directory foo has rights dr the following is possible ls foo these commands would fail independent of file rights ls foo ls foo file cat foo file cd foo if the directory foo has rights the following are possible if it is known beforehand that foo contains an readable file named file ls foo file cat foo file cd foo the following commands fail ls foo ls foo thanks to uwe waldmann uwe mpi sb mpg de for contributions here how in secure is windows windows is the primary software developed by the mit athena project which is funded by government grants to develop applications to harness the power of networks in enhancing computational tasks particularly the human computer interface the software implements client server interface to computer via graphical windows in this case the client is the application requesting or utilizing graphical resources such as windows or mouse and the server is the machine that provides them in many situations the client is an application program running on the same machine as the server the great utility of windows comes from its complete dissociation of the client and server so that windows may be broadcast to server at remote location from the client unfortunately this dynamic power also introduces many deep intricate and complicated security considerations the primary security and privacy issue associated with windows is that much more sensitive data may be sent over network and over wider regions than in the case where the human is situated near the host computer currently there is no encryption of data such as screen updates and keystrokes in windows due to either intentional design decisions or unintentional design flaws early versions of the window system are extremely insecure anyone with an account on the server machine can disrupt that display or read it electronically based on access to the device unix by any regular user there are no protections from this type of access in these versions the problem arises because the security is completely based on machine addresses rather than users such that any user at trusted machine is himself trusted quoting from documentation man xsecurity any client on host in the host access control list is allowed access to the server this system can work reasonably well in an environment where everyone trusts everyone or when only single person can log into given machine this system does not work well when multiple people can log in to single machine and mutual trust does not exist with the access control list the xhost command may prevent some naive attempts those other than the direct access unix evasion the syntax as typed on the host machine is xhost name where name is the domain name or internet address of an authorized client machine by default clients running nonlocal to the host are disabled public domain programs to disrupt display momentarily such as flip or slowly mirror the screen image or cause pixels to melt down to the bottom have been circulating on the internet among hackers for several years and played as pranks on unsuspecting or inexperienced users much more serious security breaches are conceivable from similar mechanisms exploiting this inherent weaknesses the minimal easily bypassed trusted security mode of xhost has been jokingly referred to as hanging open security terrible new versions of the window system x11r5 and higher by default make server access as secure as the file system using xauthority file and magic cookies remote machines must have code in the xauthority file in the home directory that matches the code allowed by the server many older programs and even new vendor supplied code does not support or is incompatible with magic cookies the basic magic cookie mechanism is vulnerable to monitoring techniques described earlier because no encryption of keys occurs in transmission x11r5 also includes other sophisticated encryption mechanisms try man xsecurity to find out what is supported at your site even though improved security mechanisms have been available in windows since local sites often update this software infrequently because installation is extremely complex thanks to marc vanheyningen mvanheyn whale cs indiana edu jim mattson mattson cs ucsd edu and bill marshall marshall cs iastate edu for contributions here how in secure is my email by default not very the characters that you are reading are almost certainly encoded in ascii the american standard code for information interchange that maps alphabetic and symbolic characters onto numeric codes and vice versa virtually every computer system uses this code and if not has ways of converting to and from it when you write mail message by default it is being sent in ascii and since the standard is virtually universal there is no intrinsic privacy despite milleniums worth of accumulated cryptographic knowledge cryptographic technologies are only recently being established that afford high priority to privacy as primary criteria in computer and network design some potential pitfalls in privacy are as follows the most serious threats are instances of immature or unscrupulous system operators reading private mail in the spool files at local site at the source or destination of the message such as university system administrators may also release files to law enforcement agencies but conventions and protocols for warrants involving computer searches have still not been strongly established and tested legally note that bounced messages go to postmasters at given site in their entirety this means that if you address mail with an incorrect address it has good chance of being seen by human other than the recipient typically new user accounts are always set up such that the local mail directory is private but this is not guaranteed and can be overridden finally be aware that some mailing lists email addresses of everyone on list are actually publicly accessable via mail routing software mechanisms this feature can be disabled most potential compromises in email privacy can be thoroughly avoided with the use of strong end to end cryptography which has its own set of caveats for example unscrupulous administrators may still be threat if the encryption site is shared or nonlocal see the sections on email privacy and email policies how am not liable for my email and postings as punishment or whatever your system administrator can revoke certain privileges such as emailing usenet posting or reading certain groups file transferring remote communications or generally any subset of capabilities available from your account this all is completely at the discretion of the local administrator and under the procedures followed at particular site which in many cases are haphazard and crisis oriented currently there are virtually no widespread uniform guidelines or procedures for restricting use to any internet services and local administrators are free to make arbitrary decisions on access today punitive measures are regularly applied in various situations in the typical scenario complaint reach system adminstrator regarding abuses by user usually but not necessarily preceded by complaints to the user in email regarding that person objectionable email or postings abusive posters to usenet are usually first given admonitions from their system administrators as urged by others on the net the debate persists endlessly on many newsgroups whether this is also used as questionable means of attacking or silencing harmless crackpots or censoring unpopular opinions system administrators at remote sites regularly cooperate to squelch severe cases of abuse in general however by tradition usenet readers are remarkably tolerant of diverse views and uses of the system but colorful vocabularly of slang helps describe their alternatives when this patience is sapped the options wielded by the individual user are to simply advance to the next message referred to as hitting the key or to plonk annoying posters according to the hacker dictionary the sound jerk makes at the end of fall to the bottom of kill file in cases where punitive actions are applied generally system administrators are least likely to restrict email usenet postings are much more commonly restricted either to individual users or entire groups such as university campus restrictions are most commonly associated with the following abuses harassing or threatening notes email terrorism illegal uses piracy or propagation of copyrighted material ad hominem attacks insulting the reputation of the poster instead of citing the content of the message intentional or extreme vulgarity and offensiveness inappropriate postings esp binary files in regular groups mail bombing inundating mail boxes with numerous or massive files major problems originate from lack of distinctions in private and official email or postings most users have internet access via accounts at businesses or universities and their activities on the internet can be construed as representative of their parent organizations many people put disclaimers in their signatures in an attempt dissociate their identity and activities from parent organizations as precaution recent visible political case involves the privacy of electronic mail written by white house staff members of the bush administration following are some guidelines acquaint yourself with your company or university policy if possible avoid use of your company email address for private communication use disclaimer keep low profile avoid flamewars or simply don post avoid posting information that could be construed to be proprietary or internal the following references are available from ftp eff com see also the section on internet use policies pub academic banned pub academic banned computer material that was banned challenged in academia in and including usenet hierarchies pub academic cases this is an on line collection of information about specific computers and academic freedom cases file readme is detailed description of the items in the directory pub academic faq netnews liability notes on university liability for usenet how do provide more less information to others on my identity the public information of your identity and account is mostly available though the unix utility finger described above you have control over most of this information with the utility chfn the specifics vary between sites on some systems use passwd you can provide unlimited information in the plan file which is copied directly to the destination during the fingering technique that works at some sites allows you to find out who is finger ing you and even to vary the plan file sent to them your signature is determined by the environment variable signature usenet signatures are conventionally stored in the signature file in your home directory providing less information on your online identity is more difficult and involved one approach is to ask your system adminstrator to change or delete information about you such as your full name you may be able to obtain access on public account or one from someone unrelated to you personally you may be able to remotely login via modem or otherwise to computers that you are not physically near these are tactics for hiding or masking your online activities but nothing is foolproof consult man pages on the chmod command and the default file mode generally files on shared system have good safeguards within the user pool but very little protection is possible from corrupt system administrators to mask your identity in email or on usenet you can use different accounts more untraceable are new anonymous posting and remailing services that are very recently being established see below who is my sysadmin what does he know about me the requirements and screening for getting system administration job and thereby access to all information on system vary widely between sites and are sometimes frighteningly lax especially at universities many unix systems at universities are largely managed by undergraduates with background in computing and often hacking in general commercial and industrial sites are more strict on qualifications and background and government sites are extremely strict the system adminstrator root user can monitor what commands you used and at what times he may have record backups of files on your account over few weeks he can monitor when you send email or post usenet messages and potentially read either he may have access to records indicating what hosts you are using both locally and elsewhere administrators sometimes employ specialized programs to track strange or unusual activity which can potentially be misused why is privacy un stable on the internet for the numerous reasons listed above privacy should not be an expectation with current use of the internet furthermore large parts of the internet are funded by the nsf national science foundation which places certain restrictions on its use such as prohibiting commercial use some high level officials in this and other government agencies may be opposed to emerging techniques to guarantee privacy such as encryption and anonymous services historically the major threats to privacy on the internet have been local perhaps the most common example of this are the widespread occurrences of university administrators refusing to carry some portion of usenet newsgroups labelled as pornographic the alternative hierarchy in the usenet system which has virtually no restrictions on propagation and new group creation is frequently targeted although this material may appear anywhere from the global point of view traffic is generally completely unimpeded on the internet and only the most egregious offenders are pursued for example verbatim transcriptions of copyrighted material such as newspaper or magazine articles are posted to usenet with regularity without major consequences some email complaints may ensue more astonishing to some is that currently significant portions of usenet traffic and less so internet traffic is comprised of sexually explicit digitized images almost entirely originating from copyrighted material newsgroups such as alt sex regularly have the highest traffic what is the future of privacy on the internet some argue that the internet currently has an adequate or appropriate level of privacy others will argue that as prototype for future global networks it has woefully inadequate safeguards the internet is growing to become completely global international superhighway for data and this traffic will inevitably entail data such as voice messages postal mail and many other items of extremely personal nature computer items that many people consider completely private such as their local hard drives will literally be inches from global network connections also sensitive industrial and business information is exchanged over networks currently and this volume may conceivably merge with the internet most would agree that for these basic but sensitive uses of the internet no significant mechanisms are currently in place to ensure much privacy new standards are calling for uniform introduction of privacy enhanced mail pem which uses encryption technologies to ensure privacy so that privacy protection is automatic and may significantly improve safeguards the same technology that can be extremely destructive to privacy such as with surreptitious surveilance can be overwhelmingly effective in protecting it with encryption some government agencies are opposed to unlimited privacy in general and believe that it should lawfully be forfeited in cases of criminal conduct court authorized wiretapping however powerful new technologies to protect privacy on computers are becoming increasingly popular provoking some to say that the cat is out of the bag and the genie can be put back in the bottle in less idiomatic terms they believe that the spread of strong cryptography is already underway will be socially and technically unstoppable to date no feasible system that guarantees both secure communication and government oversight has been proposed the two goals are largely incompatible proposals for registration of secret keys by denning on sci crypt for example have been met with hot controversy at best and ridicule and derision at worst mainly because of concerns for the right to privacy and objections of inherent feasibility electronic privacy issues and particularly the proper roles of networks and the internet will foreseeably become highly visible and explosive over the next few years anonymity what is anonymity on the internet simply stated anonymity is the absence of identity the ultimate in privacy however there are several variations on this simple theme person may wish to be consistently identified by certain pseudonym or handle and establish reputation under it in some area providing pseudo anonymity person may wish to be completely untraceable for single one way message sort of hit and run or person may wish to be openly anonymous but carry on conversation with others with either known or anonymous identities via an anonymous return address user may wish to appear as regular user but actually be untraceable sometimes user wishes to hide who he is sending mail to in addition to the message itself the anonymous item itself may be directed at individuals or groups user may wish to access some service and hide all signs of the association all of these uses are feasible on the internet but are currently tricky to carry out in practice because of all the tracking mechanisms inherent to operating systems and network protocols officials of the nsf and other government agencies may be opposed to any of these uses because of the potential for abuse nevertheless the inherent facelessness of large networks will always guarantee certain element of anonymity why is anonymity un important on the internet anonymity is another powerful tool that can be beneficial or problematic depending on its use arguably absence of identification is important as the presence of it it may be the case that many strong benefits from electronic anonymity will be discovered that were unforeseen and unpredicted because true anonymity has been historically very difficult to establish one can use anonymity to make personal statements to colleague that would sabotage relationship if stated openly such as employer employee scenarios one can use it to pass information and evade any threat of direct retribution for example whistleblowers reporting on government abuses economic social or political can bring issues to light without fear of stigma or retaliation sensitive personal potentially damaging information is often posted to some usenet groups risky situation where anonymity allows conversations to be carried on completely independent of the identities of the participants some police departments run phone services that allow anonymous reporting of crimes such uses would be straightforward on the network unfortunately extortion and harassment become more insidious with assurances of anonymity how can anonymity be protected on the internet the chief means as alluded to above are masking identities in email and posting however anonymous accounts public accounts as accessable and anonymous as public telephones may be effective as well but this use is generally not officially supported and even discouraged by some system adminstrators and nsf guidelines the nonuniformity in the requirements of obtaining accounts at different sites and institutions makes anonymous accounts generally difficult to obtain to the public at large many communications protocols are inherently detrimental to anonymity virtually every protocol in existence currently contains information on both sender and receiver in every packet new communications protocols will likely develop that guarantee much higher degrees of secure anonymous communication what is anonymous mail one approach to anonymizing mail has been to set up an anonymous server that when activated by email to its address responds by allocating and supplying an anonymous id that is unique to the person requesting it based on his email address this will vary for the same person for different machine address email originations to send anonymous mail the user sends email directed to the server containing the final destination the server anonymizes the message by stripping of identification information and forwards the message which appears to originate from the anonymous server only from the corresponding anonymous user id this is the interactive use of anonymity or pseudonymity mentioned above another more fringe approach is to run cypherpunk remailer from regular user account no root system privileges are required these are currently being pioneered by eric hughes and hal finney hal alumni caltech edu the operator runs process on machine that anonymizes mail sent to him with certain characteristics that distinguish it from his regular incoming mail typically fields in the header one has been implemented as perl script running on unix several of these are in existence currently but sites and software currently are highly unstable they may be in operation outside of system administrator knowledge the remailers don generally support anonymous return addresses mail that is incorrectly addressed is received by the operator generally the user of the remailer has to disavow any responsibility for the messages forwarded through his system although actually may be held liable regardless these approaches have several serious disadvantages and weaknesses the anonymous server approach requires maintaining mapping of anonymous id to real addresses that must be maintained indefinitely one alternative is to allow deallocation of aliases at the request of the user but this has not been implemented yet although an unlikely scenario traffic to any of these sites could conceivably be monitored from the outside necessitating the use of cryptography for basic protection local administrators can shut them down either out of caprice or under pressure from local network or government agencies unscrupulous providers of the services can monitor the traffic that goes through them most remailers currently keep logs that may be inspected the cypherpunk approach tends to be highly unstable because these operators are basically network users who do not own the equipment and are accountable to their own system administrators who may be unaware of the use and unsympathetic to the philosophy of anonymity when the operation is discovered regarding it as illicit use in all cases high degree of trust is placed in the anonymous server operator by the user currently the most direct route to anonymity involves using smtp protocols to submit message directly to server with arbitrary field information this practice not uncommon to hackers and the approach used by remailers is generally viewed with hostility by most system administrators information in the header routing data and logs of network port connection information may be retained that can be used to track the originating site in practice this is generally infeasible and rarely carried out some administrators on the network will contact local administrators to request message be tracked and its writer admonished or punished more severely such as revoking the account all of this actually happening occasionally but infrequently see the sections known anonymous mail and posting sites and responsibilities associated with anonymity what is anonymous posting anonymous servers have been established as well for anonymous usenet posting with all the associated caveats above monitored traffic capricious or risky local circumstances logging make sure to test the system at least once by anonymous posting to misc test however some operators don recommend this because many sites autorespond to test messages possibly causing the anonymous server to allocate anonymous ids for those machines see the responsibilties associated with anonymous posting before proceeding another direct route involves using nntp protocols to submit message directly to newserver with arbitrary field information this practice not uncommon to hackers is also generally viewed with hostility by most system administrators and similar consequences can ensue see the sections known anonymous mail and posting sites and responsibilities associated with anonymity why is anonymity un stable on the internet as noted many factors compromise the anonymity currently available to the general internet community and these services should be used with great caution to summarize the technology is in its infancy and current approaches are unrefined unreliable and not completely trustworthy no standards have been established and troubling situations of loss of anonymity and bugs in the software are prevalent here are some encountered and potential bugs one anonymous remailer reallocated already allocated anonymous return addresses others passed signature information embedded in messages unaltered address resolution problems resulting in anonymized mail bounced to remailer are common forgeries to the anonymous server itself are problem possibly allowing unauthorized users to potentially glean anon id email address mappings in the alias file this can be remedied with the use of passwords infinite mail loops are possible with chaining remailers source code is being distributed tested and refined for these systems but standards are progressing slowly and weakly the field is not likely to improve considerably without official endorsement and action by network agencies the whole idea is essentially still in its infancy and viewed with suspicion and distrust by many on the internet seen as illegitimate or favorable to criminality the major objection to anonymity over regular internet use is the perceived lack of accountability to system operators invulnerability to account restrictions resulting from outside complaints system adminstrators at some sites have threatened to filter anonymous news postings generated by the prominent servers from their redistribution flows this may only have the effect of encouraging server operators to create less characteristically detectable headers probably the least problematic approach and the most traditional to usenet is for individual users to deal with anonymous mail however they prefer ignoring it or filtering it with kill files what is the future of anonymity on the internet new anonymous protocols effectively serve to significantly increase safeguards of anonymity for example the same mechanism that routes email over multiple hosts thereby threatening its privacy can also be used to guarantee it in scheme called chaining an anonymous message is passed through multiple anonymous servers before reaching destination in this way generally multiple links of the chain have to be broken for security to be compromised re encryption at each link makes this scenario even more unlikely even more significantly the anonymous remailers could be spread over the internet globally so that local weaknesses such as corrupt governments or legal wiretapping within nation would be more unlikely to sacrifice overall security by message tracing however remailers run by corrupt operators are possible the future of anonymous services on the internet is at this time highly uncertain and fraught with peril while specific groups seem to benefit significantly from anonymous posting capabilities many feel that unlimited newsgroup scope for anonymous posting is disruptive and dangerous idea and detracts from discussions in serious groups the introduction of unlimited group anonymity may have fundamental repercussions on usenet conventions and distribution mechanisms such as moderated and alt groups have had in the past for example as part of new group creation the charter may specify whether anonymous posting is un welcome nevertheless the widespread introduction and use of anonymity may be inevitable based on traffic statistics anonymous services are in huge demand pervasive and readily available anonymity could carry significant and unforeseen social consequences however if its use is continued to be generally regarded as subversive it may be confined to the underground the ramifications of widespread introduction of anonymity to usenet are still largely unknown it is unclear whether it will provoke signficant amounts of new traffic or instead of expansion cause shift where greater portion of existing traffic is anonymized conceivably the services could play role in influencing future mainstream social acceptance of usenet this is part of the privacy anonymity faq obtained via anonymous ftp to pit manager mit edu pub usenet news answers net privacy or newsgroups news answers sci answers alt answers every days written by detweiler ld231782 longs lance colostate edu all rights reserved xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt privacy alt answers sci answers news answers path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net pad thai aktis com pad thai aktis com not for mail from ld231782 longs lance colostate edu detweiler newsgroups sci crypt alt privacy alt answers sci answers news answers subject privacy anonymity on the internet faq of supersedes net privacy part2 gza com followup to poster date apr organization tmp enterprises lines sender faqserv gza com approved news answers request mit edu expires may gmt message id net privacy part2 gza com references net privacy part1 gza com reply to ld231782 longs lance colostate edu nntp posting host pad thai aktis com summary email and account privacy anonymity file encryption academic computer policies relevant legislation and references eff and other privacy and rights issues associated with use of the internet and global networks in general last updated archive name net privacy part2 last modified version identity privacy and anonymity on the internet detweiler not for commercial use except by permission from author otherwise may be freely copied not to be altered please credit if quoted summary email and account privacy anonymity file encryption academic computer policies relevant legislation and references eff and other privacy and rights issues associated with use of the internet and global networks in general search for for exact section search for underline for next section part this file resources what unix programs are related to privacy how can learn about or use cryptography what is the cypherpunks mailing list what are some privacy related newsgroups faqs what is internet privacy enhanced mail pem what are other request for comments rfcs related to privacy how can run an anonymous remailer what are references on privacy in email what are some email usenet and internet use policies what is the mit crosslink anonymous message tv program miscellaneous what is digital cash what is hacker or cracker what is cypherpunk what is steganography and anonymous pools what is security through obscurity what are identity daemons what standards are needed to guard electronic privacy issues what is the electronic frontier foundation eff who are computer professionals for social responsibility cpsr what was operation sun devil and the steve jackson game case what is integrated services digital network isdn what is the national research and education network nren what is the fbi proposed digital telephony act what other legislation is related to privacy on networks what are references on rights in cyberspace what is the computers and academic freedom caf archive footnotes what is the background behind the internet how is internet anarchy like the english language most wanted list change history resources what unix programs are related to privacy for more information type man cmd or apropos keyword at the unix shell prompt passwd change password finger obtain information about remote user chfn change information about yourself obtainable by remote users sometimes passwd chmod change the rights associated with file or directory umask shell change the default on creation file access rights ls list the rights associated with files and directories xhost allow or disable access control of particular users to an xwindow server last list the latest user logins on the system and their originations who list other users login idle times originations list other users and what they are running xhost access control list for window client use xauth control window server authentication signature file in the home directory appended to usenet posts forward file used to forward email to other accounts xauthority file used for window server authentication keys signature variable used for name in email and usenet postings the tcpdump packet tracing program is loosely based on smi etherfind although none of the etherfind code remains it was originally written by van jacobson lawrence berkeley laboratory as part of an ongoing research project to investigate and improve tcp and internet gateway performance current version is available via anonymous ftp from host ftp ee lbl gov currently at address file tcpdump tar compressed unix tar file this program is subject to the standard berkeley network software copyright how can learn about or use cryptography general introduction to mostly theoretical cryptographic issues especially those frequently discussed in sci crypt is available in faq form compiled by cme ellisun sw stratus com carl ellison gwyn brl mil doug gwyn smb ulysses att com steven bellovin nist national institute for standards and technology publishes an introductory paper on cryptography special publication public key cryptograhy by james nechvatal april available via anonymous ftp from csrc ncsl nist gov file pub nistpubs txt also via available anonymous ftp from wimsey bc ca as crypt txt in the crypto directory covers technical mathematical aspects of encryption such as number theory more general information can be found in faq by paul fahn of rsa labortories via anonymous ftp from rsa com in pub faq ps see the readme file for information on the tex version also available as hardcopy for from rsa laboratories marine parkway redwood city ca send questions to faq editor rsa com phil zimmerman pgp pretty good privacy public domain package for public key encryption is available at numerous sites and is in widespread use over the internet for general unix based file encryption including email consult the archie ftp database also see the newsgroup alt security pgp mailing list requests to info pgp request lucpul it luc edu from the ripem faq by marc vanheyningen mvanheyn whale cs indiana edu on news answers ripem is program which performs privacy enhanced mail pem using the cryptographic techniques of rsa and des it allows your electronic mail to have the properties of authentication who sent it can be confirmed and privacy nobody can read it except the intended recipient ripem was written primarily by mark riordan mrr scss3 cl msu edu most of the code is in the public domain except for the rsa routines which are library called rsaref licensed from rsa data security inc ripem is available via anonymous ftp to citizens and permanent residents in the from rsa com cd to rsaref and read the readme file for info ripem as well as some other crypt stuff has its home site on rpub cl msu edu which is open to non anonymous ftp for users in the and canada who are citizens or permanent residents to find out how to obtain access ftp there cd to pub crypt and read the file getting access note cryptography is generally not well integrated into email yet and some system proficiency is required by users to utilize it what is the cypherpunks mailing list eric hughes hughes toad com runs the cypherpunk mailing list dedicated to discussion about technological defenses for privacy in the digital domain send email to cypherpunks request toad com to be added or subtracted from the list from the charter the most important means to the defense of privacy is encryption to encrypt is to indicate the desire for privacy but to encrypt with weak cryptography is to indicate not too much desire for privacy cypherpunks hope that all people desiring privacy will learn how best to defend it what are some privacy related newsgroups faqs newsgroups alt comp acad freedom news alt comp acad freedom talk moderated and unmoderated issues related to academic freedom and privacy at universities documented examples of violated privacy in email documented examples of censorship as in limiting usenet groups local availability alt cyberpunks virtual reality science fiction by william gibson and bruce sterling cyberpunk in the mainstream alt hackers usenet network news transfer protocol nntp posting mechanisms simple mail transfer protocol smtp obligatory hack reports alt privacy general privacy issues involving taxpaying licensing social security numbers etc alt security comp security misc computer related security issues faq in news answers below alt security pgp alt security ripem dedicated to discussing public domain cryptographic software packages pgp or pretty good privacy software developed by phil zimmerman for public key encryption and ripem by mark riordan for public key and des encryption comp society privacy privacy issues associated with computer technologies examples caller identification social security numbers credit applications mailing lists etc moderated comp eff news comp eff talk moderated and unmoderated groups associated with the electronic frontier foundation started by mitch kapor for protecting civil and constitutional rights in the electronic realm news admin news admin policy concerns of news administrators nntp standards and mechanisms news lists usenet traffic distributions most frequent posters most voluminous groups most active sites etc sci crypt considers scientific and social issues of cryptography examples legitimate use of pgp public key patents des cryptographic security cypher breaking etc faqs faqs or frequently asked questions are available in the newsgroups answers or via anonymous ftp to pit manager mit edu also rtfm mit edu from the directory pub usenet news answers where is the archive name this faq is archived in the file net privacy others are network info part1 sources of information about the internet and how to connect to it through the nsf or commercial vendors alt security faq computer related security issues arising in alt security and comp security misc mostly unix related ssn privacy privacy issues associated with the use of the social security number ssn pdial public dialup internet accounts list college email part1 how to find email addresses for undergraduate and graduate students faculty and staff at various colleges and universities ripem faq information on ripem program for public key mail encryption officially sanctioned by public key partners inc the company that owns patents on public key cryptography unix faq faq part1 frequently asked questions about unix including information on finger and terminal spying distributions known geographic university and network distributions what is internet privacy enhanced mail pem internet drafts on privacy enhanced mail pem describe standard under revision for six years delineating the official protocols for email encryption the standard has only recently stabilized and implementations are being developed rfc privacy enhancement for internet electronic mail part message encryption and authentication procedures linn mcimail com rfc privacy enhancement for internet electronic mail part ii certificate based key management kent kent bbn com rfc privacy enhancement for internet electronic mail part iv key certification and related services kaliski burt rsa com rfc privacy enhancement for internet electronic mail part iii algorithms modes and identifiers balenson belenson tis com send email to pem info tis com for more information see rfcs related to privacy for information on how to obtain rfcs what are other requests for comments rfcs related to privacy rfc smtp simple mail transfer protocol rfc nntp network news transfer protocol rfc standard for interchange of network news messages rfc glossary of networking terms rfc answers to experienced internet user questions rfc answers to new internet user questions rfc privacy issues in network information center databases rfc is fyi answers to commonly asked new internet user questions and includes basic terminology on the internet tcp ip smtp ftp internet organizations such as iab internet activities board and ietf internet enbgineering task force and glossary of terms also from ftp eff org pub internet info internet rfcs can be obtained via ftp from nic ddn mil with the pathname rfc rfcnnnn txt or rfc rfcnnnn ps where nnnn refers to the number of the rfc login with ftp username anonymous and password guest the nic also provides an automatic mail service for those sites which cannot use ftp address the request to service nic ddn mil and in the subject field of the message indicate the rfc number as in subject rfc nnnn or subject rfc nnnn ps for postscript rfcs rfcs can also be obtained via ftp from nis nsf net using ftp login with username anonymous and password guest then connect to the rfc directory cd rfc the file name is of the form rfcnnnn txt where nnnn refers to the number of the rfc the nis also provides an automatic mail service for those sites which cannot use ftp address the request to nis info nis nsf net and leave the subject field of the message blank the first line of the text of the message must be send rfcnnnn txt where nnnn is replaced by the rfc number how can run an anonymous remailer cypherpunk remailer source is at soda berkeley edu in the pub cypherpunks directory it written in perl and is relatively easy to install no administrative rights are required karl barrus elee9sf menudo uh edu has more information and modifications also most remailer operators mentioned above are amenable to discussing features problems and helping new sites become operational address all points in the section responsibities of anonymous use in this document prior to advertising your service you should be committed to the long term stability of the site and avoid running one surreptitiously what are references on privacy in email brown bob ema urges users to adopt policy on mail privacy network world oct bairstow jeffrey who reads your electronic mail electronic business june electronic envelopes the uncertainty of keeping mail private scientific american february ftp eff org pub eff papers email privacy article on the rights of email privacy by ruel hernandez pub academic law privacy email computer electronic mail and privacy an edited version of law school seminar paper by ruel hernadez pub eff papers email privacy biblio compilation of bibliography on mail and its privacy issues part of the work compiled by stacy veeder pub eff papers email privacy research the author at digital research tried to formalize their employee privacy policy on mail the casesightings are divided into two groups us constitutional law and california law pub eff papers company email formulating company policy on access to and disclosure of electronic mail on company computer systems by david johnson and john podesta for the electronic mail assocation pub cud alcor information on alcor co an mail privacy suit pub academic law privacy email email privacy search at berkeley what are some email usenet and internet use policies the computer policy and critiques archive is collection of the computer policies of many schools and networks run by the computers and academic freedom group on the electronic frontier foundation ftp site the collection also includes critiques of some of the policies if you have gopher the archive is browsable with the command gopher academic policies gopher eff org the archive is also accessible via anonymous ftp and email ftp to ftp eff org it is in directory pub academic policies for email access send email to archive server eff org include the line send acad freedom policies filenames where filenames is list of the files that you want file readme is detailed description of the items in the directory for more information to make contributions or to report typos contact greenfield greeny eff org directory widener contains additional policies but not critiques ftp eff org pub cud networks acceptable use policies for various networks including compuserve file compuserve nsfnet file nsfnet with information on research and commercial uses see pub cud networks index pub cud networks email policies from various sysadmins about how they handle the issue of email privacy control and abuse compiled by hooper hooper ta cc curtin edu au pub cud schools computer use policies of number of schools see schools index for full list and description commentary pub academic faq policy best opinions on the best academic computer policies pub academic faq email policies do any universities treat email and computer files as private pub academic faq netnews writing policies on what users write on usenet pub academic faq netnews reading policies on what users read on usenet should my university remove or restrict netnews newsgroups because some people find them offensive pub academic faq policy what guidance is there for creating or evaluating university academic computer policy what is the mit crosslink anonymous message tv program crosslink is an anonymous message system run on mit student cable tv it provides an anonymous medium through which mit students can say those things they might otherwise find difficult inconvenient or impossible to say in person it also way to send fun or totally random messages to your friends over the air it is similar to the anonymous message pages found in many college newspapers except that it electronic in nature and it free messages can be posted to the service via email for more information send email to crosslink athena mit edu miscellaneous what is digital cash with digital encryption and authentication technologies the possibility of widespread digital cash system may someday be realized system utilizing codes sent between users and banks similar to today checking system except entirely digital may be one approach the issues of cryptography privacy and anonymity are closely associated with transfer of cash in an economy see the article in scientific american by david chaum dec an experimental digital bank is run by karl barrus elee9sf menudo uh edu based on suggestions by hal finney on the cypherpunks mailing list to use the server send mail to elee7h5 rosebud ee uh edu message with the following text command help user host where user host is your email address what is hacker or cracker these terms arouse strong feelings by many on their meaning especially on the internet in the general news media in the past person who uses computers and networks to malicious ends such as breaking into systems has been referred to as hacker but most internet users prefer the term cracker for this instead hacker is perceived as benign but intensely ambitious curious and driven computer user who explores obscure areas of system for example something of proud electronic pioneer and patriot this is the sense intended in this document see also the hacker dictionary and the faq alt security faq what is cypherpunk from the charter of the cypherpunk mailing list cypherpunks assume privacy is good thing and wish there were more of it cypherpunks acknowledge that those who want privacy must create it for themselves and not expect governments corporations or other large faceless organizations to grant them privacy out of beneficence cypherpunks know that people have been creating their own privacy for centuries with whispers envelopes closed doors and couriers cypherpunks do not seek to prevent other people from speaking about their experiences or their opinions see information on the cypherpunk mailing list below see also the cryptoanarchist manifesto and the cryptography glossary in soda berkeley edu pub cypherpunks what is steganography and anonymous pools closely associated with encryption is steganography or the techniques for not only pursuing private encrypted communication but concealing the very existence of the communication itself many new possibilities in this area are introduced with the proliferation of computer technology for example it is possible to encode messages in the least significant bits of images typically the most noisy in addition when such an item is posted in public place such as newsgroup virtually untraceable communication can take place between sender and receiver for steganographic communications in the electronic realm one another possibility is setting up mailing list where individual messages get broadcast to the entire list and individual users decode particular messages with their unique key an anonymous pool has been set up by miron cuperman miron extropia wimsey com for experiments send email to pool0 request extropia wimsey com with one of the following commands in the subject line subscribe unsubscribe help what is security through obscurity security through obscurity refers to the attempt to gain protection from system weaknesses by hiding sensitive information or programs relating to them for example company may not make public information on its software encryption techniques to evade attacks based on knowledge of it another example would be concealing data on the existence of security holes or bugs in operating systems or some reliance may be made on the fact that some standard or mechanism with potential problems is serious because they are not widely known or not widely used this argument is occasionally applied to mechanisms for email and usenet posting forgery security through obscurity is regarded as very feeble technique at best and inappropriate and ineffective at worst also called the head in the sand approach see the faq for alt security some remarks of john perry barlow cofounder of the electronic frontier foundation directed to nsa agents at the first international symposium on national security national competitiveness held in mclean virginia dec digitized information is very hard to stamp classified or keep contained this stuff is incredibly leaky and volatile it almost life form in its ability to self propagate if something hits the net and it something which people on there find interesting it will spread like virus of the mind believe you must simply accept the idea that we are moving into an environment where any information which is at all interesting to people is going to get out and there will be very little that you can do about it this is not bad thing in my view but you may differ what are identity daemons rfc describes protocol standard that allows unix programs to query remote user login name after connection to local communication socket connection of this type is established during ftp and telnet sessions for example the standard is not widely supported perhaps of internet sites currently implement it but the number is increasing the mechanism is detrimental to anonymity regular users cannot disable it but system adminstrators can circumvent it this standard may represent trend toward greater authentication mechanisms what new standards are needed to guard electronic privacy remailing posting stable secure protected officially sanctioned and permitted publicly and privately operated anonymous servers and hubs official standards for encryption and anonymity in mail and usenet postings truly anonymous protocols with source and destination information obscured or absent and hidden routing mechanisms chaining encrypted addresses etc standards for anonymous email addressing embedding files and remailer site chaining general recognition of anonymity cryptography and related privacy shields as legitimate useful desirable and crucial by the general public and their governments widespread use and implementation of these technologies by systems designers into hardware software and standards implemented securely seamlessly and transparently general shift of use dependence and reliance to means other than wiretapping and electronic surveillance by law enforcement agencies publicity retraction and dissolution of laws and government agencies opposed to privacy replaced by structures dedicated to strengthening and protecting it issues what is the electronic frontier foundation eff from ftp eff org pub eff mission statement new world is arising in the vast web of digital electronic media which connect us computer based communication media like electronic mail and computer conferencing are becoming the basis of new forms of community these communities without single fixed geographical location comprise the first settlements on an electronic frontier while well established legal principles and cultural norms give structure and coherence to uses of conventional media like newspapers books and telephones the new digital media do not so easily fit into existing frameworks conflicts come about as the law struggles to define its application in context where fundamental notions of speech property and place take profoundly new forms people sense both the promise and the threat inherent in new computer and communications technologies even as they struggle to master or simply cope with them in the workplace and the home the electronic frontier foundation has been established to help civilize the electronic frontier to make it truly useful and beneficial not just to technical elite but to everyone and to do this in way which is in keeping with our society highest traditions of the free and open flow of information and communication eff was started by the multimillionaire mitchell kapor founder of lotus software and john barlow lyricist for the grateful dead rock band highly publicized endeavor of the organization involved the legal defense of steve jackson games after an fbi raid and an accompanying civil suit see section on steve jackson games the foundation publishes eff news effector online electronically send requests to effnews request eff org in letter to mitchell kapor from the chairman of the subcommittee with primary jurisdiction over telecommunications policy dated november representative edward markey complemented mitchell kapor on his insights on the development of national public information infrastructure which were appreciated greatly by myself and the members of the subcommittee complete text in ftp eff com pub pub infra we need to pursue policies that encourage the bell companies to work with other sectors of the communications industry to create consumer oriented public information network please let me or my staff know what policies you and others in the computer industry believe would best serve the public interest in creating reasonably priced widely available network in which competition is open and innovation rewarded also want to learn what lessons from the computer industry over the past ten to fifteen years should apply to the current debate on structuring the information and communications networks of the future ask your help in gaining input from the computer industry so that the subcommittee can shape policies that will bring this spirit of innovation and entrepreneurship to the information services industry ftp eff org pub eff about eff file of basic information about eff including goals mission achievements and current projects contains membership form pub eff mission statement eff mission statement pub eff historical founding announcement eff founding press release pub eff historical eff history john perry barlow not terribly brief history of the eff july how eff was conceived and founded major legal cases and the organizational directions pub eff historical legal case summary eff legal case summary who are computer professionals for social responsibility cpsr the computer professionals for social responsibility have been working to protect and promote electronic civil liberties issues since the group has three offices palo alto cambridge washington dc and chapters it is involved in litigation against the fbi the nsa nist the secret service and other other government agencies to declassify and provide documentation on issues such as operation sundevil the fbi wiretap proposal nsa interference in crypography the breakup of the raid in arlington va in nov members speak frequently in front on congress state legislators and public utility commissions to testify on privacy information policy computer security and caller identification cpsr has created an extensive internet privacy library available via ftp gopher wais and email at cpsr org currently comprising the largest collection of privacy documents on the internet for more information anonymous ftp cpsr org cpsr thanks to dave banisar banisar washofc cpsr org for contributions here what was operation sundevil and the steve jackson game case in the early fear spread among law enforcement agencies on the illicit activities of hackers and phreakers involved in such activities as credit card fraud and long distance call thievery see ftp eff org pub sjg general information effector1 operation sundevil the phoenix inspired crackdown of may concentrated on telephone code fraud and credit card abuse and followed this seizure plan with some success bulletin board systems went down all over america terrifying the underground and swiftly depriving them of at least some of their criminal instruments it also saddled analysts with some floppy disks and confronted harried justice department prosecutors with the daunting challenge of gigantic nationwide hacker show trial involving highly technical issues in dozens of jurisdictions massive show trials never materialized although isolated instances of prosecution were pursued the movement reached crescendo in texas with the highly publicized case of illegal search and seizure involving the steve jackson games company of austin texas on march from the column gurps labour lost by bruce sterling bruces well sf ca us in fantasy and science fiction magazine in an early morning raid with an unlawful and unconstitutional warrant agents of the secret service conducted search of the sjg office when they left they took manuscript being prepared for publication private electronic mail and several computers including the hardware and software of the sjg computer bulletin board system yet jackson and his business were not only innocent of any crime but never suspects in the first place the raid had been staged on the unfounded suspicion that somewhere in jackson office there might be document compromising the security of the telephone system fbi agents involved in the seizure were named in civil suit filed on behalf of steve jackson games by the electronic frontier foundation see information on eff below from an article by joe abernathy in the houston chronicle feb austin an electronic civil rights case against the secret service closed thursday with clear statement by federal district judge sam sparks that the service failed to conduct proper investigation in notorious computer crime crackdown and went too far in retaining custody of seized equipment secret service special agent timothy foley of chicago who was in charge of three austin computer search and seizures on march that led to the lawsuit stoically endured spark rebuke over the service poor investigation and abusive computer seizure policies while the service has seized dozens of computers since the crackdown began in this is the first case to challenge the practice sparks grew visibly angry when it was established that the austin science fiction magazine and game book publisher was never suspected of crime and that agents did not do even marginal research to establish criminal connection between the firm and the suspected illegal activities of an employee or to determine that the company was publisher indeed agents testified that they were not even trained in the privacy protection act at the special secret service school on computer crime how long would it have taken you mr foley to find out what steve jackson games did what it was asked sparks an hour was there any reason why on march you could not return to steve jackson games copy in floppy disk form of everything taken did you read the article in business week magazine where it had picture of steve jackson law abiding tax paying citizen saying he was computer crime suspect did it ever occur to you mr foley that seizing this material could harm steve jackson economically foley replied no sir but the judge offered his own answer you actually did you just had no idea anybody would actually go out and hire lawyer and sue you more than has been spent by the electronic frontier foundation in bringing the case to trial the eff was founded by mitchell kapor amid civil liberties movement sparked in large part by the secret service computer crime crackdown ftp eff org pub cud papers sundevil collection of information on operation sundevil by the epic nonprofit publishing project everything you wanted to know but could never find pub cud papers sj resp steve jackson response to the charges against him what is integrated services digital network isdn isdn is high speed data communications standard that utilizes existing copper telephone lines and is possible inexpensive and intermediate alternative to laying fiber optic cable for phone networks the speeds involved may be sufficient for audio and video transmission applications der leun in the file ftp eff org pub pub infra telecommunications in the united states is at crossroads with the regional bell operating companies now free to provide content the shape of the information networking is about to be irrevocably altered but will that network be the open accessible affordable network that the american public needs you can help decide this question the electronic frontier foundation recently presented plan to congress calling for the immediate deployment of national network based on existing isdn technology accessible to anyone with telephone connection and priced like local voice service we believe deployment of such platform will spur the development of innovative new information services and maximize freedom competitiveness and civil liberties throughout the nation the eff is testifying before congress and the fcc making presentations to public utility commisions from massachusetts to california and meeting with representatives from telephone companies publishers consumer advocates and other stakeholders in the telecommunications policy debate the eff believes that participants on the internet as pioneers on the electronic frontier need to have their voices heard at this critical moment to automatically receive description of the platform and details send mail to archive server eff org with the following line send documents open platform overview or send mail to eff eff org see also the introduction to the eff open platform proposal in ftp eff org pub pub infra references digital data on demand macworld page kbps vs isdn services and products see comments by powers in ftp eff org pub pub infra telephone service that rings of the future by joshua quittner newsday tue jan implications of isdn for the masses written in popular science style john perry barlow cofounder eff regional telephone companies ohio bell isdn as technological rorschach test anecdotes about mcdonald barbara bush teleconferencing see complete text in ftp eff org pub pub infra ftp eff org pub pub infra files through containing email from the eff public infrastructure group organized by month opinions and facts on the pros and cons of isdn integrated services digital network uses of isdn phone video audio etc japanese model alternatives to isdn hdsl adsl fiber optics technical specifications of isdn implementation details cost issues political obstacles rboc regional bell operating companies or baby bells net new england telephone influencing development of future networks isdn and nren national research and education network encouraging competition cable tv systems press releases and news articles letter from rep markey to kapor what is the national research and education network nren the nation research and education network was introduced in legislation cosponsored by sen gore to promote high speed data network infrastructure augmenting the internet with up to times faster transmission rates the bill passed the house on november the senate on november and was signed by the president on december ftp eff org pub eff legislation nren bill text the complete text of the house senate compromise version of the high performance computing act pub internet info gore bill nd congress st session text of high performance computing bill cosponsored by sen gore pub eff legislation gore infrastructure bill the text of the information infrastructure and technology act of introduced by senator gore to expand federal efforts to develop technologies for applications of high performance computing and high speed networking and to provide for coordinated federal program to accelerate development and deployment of an advanced information infrastructure said to play favorites in promoting nationwide computer network by john markoff times dec president bush legislation for natiowide computer data superhighway ibm mci venture as monopoly destructive to fair competition and innovation national science foundation nsfnet complete text in pub pub infra commentary pub academic statements nren privacy cpsr proposed privacy guidelines for the nren statement of marc rotenberg washington director computer professionals for social responsibility cpsr pub internet info cisler nren the national research and education network two meetings steve cisler senior scientist apple computer library december summary of meetings exploring educational issues of nren by diverse members of academia and industry pub internet info privatized nren feb essay by kapor advocating advantages of private national public network and specific recommendations for open nren policies encouraging competition pub eff papers netproposition an fyi about the proposed nren setup what is the fbi proposed digital telephony act providers of electronic communication services and private branch exchange operators shall provide within the united states capability and capacity for the government to intercept wire and electronic communications when authorized by law from bbs legislative watch fbis wiretapping proposal thwarted by steele in boardwatch magazine feb in move that worried privacy experts software manufacturers and telephone companies the fbi proposed legislation to amend the communications act of to make it easier for the bureau to perform electronic wiretapping the proposed legislation entitled digital telephony would have required communications service providers and hardware manufacturers to make their systems tappable by providing back doors through which law enforcement officers could intercept communications furthermore this capability would have been provided undetectably while the communications was in progress exclusive of any communications between other parties regardless of the mobility of the target of the fbi investigation and without degradation of service under the proposal the department of justice doj can keep communications products off the market if it determines that these products do not meet the doj own guidelines this could result in increased costs and reduced competitiveness for service providers and equipment manufacturers since they will be unlikely to add any features that may result in doj rejection of their entire product the fbi proposal suggests that the cost of this wiretapping service to the bureau would have to be borne by the service provider itself the electronic frontier foundation organized broad coalition of public interest and industry groups from computer professionals for social responsibilty cpsr and the aclu to at and sun microsystems to oppose the legislation white paper produced by the eff and ratified by the coalition entitled an analysis of the fbi digital telephony proposal was widely distributed throughout the congress the justice department lobbied hard in the final days to get congress to take up the bill before congress adjourned but the bill never found congressional sponsor and was therefore never officially introduced the fbi may reintroduce digital telephony when the rd congress convenes in january ftp eff org pub eff legislation fbi wiretap bill pub eff legislation new fbi wiretap bill bill to ensure the continuing access of law enforcement to the content of wire and electronic communications when authorized by law and for other purposes version of the bill after fbi changes in response to public response pub cud law hr3515 house of rep bill telecommunications law commentary pub eff papers eff fbi analysis the eff sponsored analysis of the fbi digital telephony proposal pub eff papers ecpa layman the electronic communications privacy act of layman view pub eff papers nightline wire transcript of abc nightline of may on the fbi privacy and proposed wire tapping legislation featured are marc rotenberg of the cpsr and william sessions director of the fbi pub eff papers edwards letter letter from the director of the secret service to us rep don edwards california in response to questions raised by edwards subcommittee this copy came from computer professionals for social responsibility in washington pub eff papers fbi systems description of how information is stored on the fbi computer systems what other legislation is related to privacy ftp eff org pub cud law state state computer crime laws al ak az ca co ct de fl ga hi ia id il in md mn nc nj nm ny or tx vt va wa wi wv pub cud law country current computer crime laws for the united states federal code canada ghana and great britain pub cud law bill senate bill addressing registration of encryption keys with the government pub cud law improve improvement of information access bill pub cud law monitoring senate bill concerning abuses of electronic monitoring in the workplace pub cud law us privacy title relating to computer crime email privacy pub academic law privacy electronic bill the text of simon electronic privacy bill to prevent potential abuses of electronic monitoring in the workplace what are references on rights in cyberspace ftp eff org pub cud papers const in cyberspace laurence tribe keynote address at the first conference on computers freedom privacy the constitution in cyberspace pub cud papers denning paper presented to th nat comp security conf concerning hackers who break into computer systems by dorothy denning pub cud papers privacy computer privacy vs first and fourth amendment rights by michael borella pub cud papers rights of expr rights of expression in cyberspace by baird pub academic eff rights bill of rights meaning in the electronic frontier what is the computers and academic freedom caf archive the caf archive is an electronic library of information about computers and academic freedom run by the computers and academic freedom group on the electronic frontier foundation ftp site if you have gopher the archive is browsable with the command gopher academic gopher eff org it is available via anonymous ftp to ftp eff org in directory pub academic it is also available via email for information on email access send email to archive server eff org in the body of your note include the lines help and index for more information to make contributions or to report typos contact greenfield greeny eff org ftp eff org pub academic statements caf statement codifies the application of academic freedom to academic computers reflecting seven months of on line discussion about computers and academic freedom covers free expression due process privacy and user participation pub academic books directory of book references related to computers and academic freedom or mentioned in the caf discussion the file books readme is bibliography pub academic faq archive list of files available on the computers and academic freedom archive pub academic news directory of all issues of the computers and academic freedom news full list of abstracts is available in file abstracts the special best of the month issues are named with their month for example june footnotes what is the background behind the internet the article internet in fantasy and science fiction by bruce sterling bruces well sf ca us contains general and nontechnical introductory notes on origins of the internet including the role of the rand corporation the goal of network resilience in face of nuclear attack mit ucla arpanet tcp ip nsf nren etc arpanet itself formally expired in happy victim of its own overwhelming success its users scarcely noticed for arpanet functions not only continued but steadily improved the use of tcp ip standards for computer networking is now global in mere twenty one years ago there were only four nodes in the arpanet network today there are tens of thousands of nodes in the internet scattered over forty two countries with more coming on line every day three million possibly four million people use this gigantic mother of all computer networks the internet is especially popular among scientists and is probably the most important scientific instrument of the late twentieth century the powerful sophisticated access that it provides to specialized data and personal communication has sped up the pace of scientific research enormously the internet pace of growth in the early is spectacular almost ferocious it is spreading faster than cellular phones faster than fax machines last year the internet was growing at rate of twenty percent month the number of host machines with direct connection to tcp ip has been doubling every year since the internet is moving out of its original base in military and research institutions into elementary and high schools as well as into public libraries and the commercial sector references bowers laquey reynolds roubicek stahl and yuan where to start bibliography of general internetworking information rfc cnri texas isi bbn sri mitre august the whole internet catalog user guide by ed krol reilly and associates inc clear non jargonized introduction to the intimidating business of network literacy written in humorous style krol the hitchhikers guide to the internet rfc university of illinois urbana september the user directory to computer networks by tracy laquey the matrix computer networks and conferencing systems worldwide by john quarterman digital press bedford ma massive and highly technical compendium detailing the mind boggling scope and complexity of global internetworks directory of electronic mail addressing and networks by donnalyn frey and rick adams the internet companion by tracy laquey with jeanne ryer addison wesley evangelical etiquette guide to the internet featuring anecdotal tales of life changing internet experiences foreword by senator al gore zen and the art of the internet beginner guide by brendan kehoe prentice hall brief but useful internet guide with plenty of good advice on useful databases see also ftp eff com pub internet info thanks to bruce sterling bruces well sf ca us for contributions here general cunningham scott and alan porter communication networks dozen ways they ll change our lives the futurist january february brian kahin ed building information infrastructure new york mcgraw hill isbn essays on information infrastructure policy and design issues research and nren future visions information markets see table of contents in ftp eff org pub pub infra shapard jeffrey observations on cross cultural electronic networking whole earth review winter varley pamela electronic democracy technology review november december how internet anarchy like the english language according to bruce sterling bruces well sf ca us the internet anarchy may seem strange or even unnatural but it makes certain deep and basic sense it rather like the anarchy of the english language nobody rents english and nobody owns english as an english speaking person it up to you to learn how to speak english properly and make whatever use you please of it though the government provides certain subsidies to help you learn to read and write bit otherwise everybody just sort of pitches in and somehow the thing evolves on its own and somehow turns out workable and interesting fascinating even though lot of people earn their living from using and exploiting and teaching english english as an institution is public property public good much the same goes for the internet would english be improved if the the english language inc had board of directors and chief executive officer or president and congress there probably be lot fewer new words in english and lot fewer new ideas most wanted list hopefully you have benefitted from this creation compilation and condensation of information from various sources regarding privacy identity and anonymity on the internet the author is committed to keeping this up to date and strengthening it but this can only be effective with your feedback in particular the following items are sought short summaries of rfc documents and other references listed esp cpsr files more data on the specific uses and penetration of rfc internet traffic statistics how much is email how much usenet what are the costs involved famous or obscure examples of compromised privacy on the internet ftp site for the code not the code to turn the plan file into named pipe for sensing reacting to remote fingers knowledge on the promiscuous mode of receipt or transmission on network cards details on the infamous experiment where scientist resubmitted previously accepted papers to prominent journal with new and unknown authors that were subsequently rejected windows eff cpsr faqhood in news answers commerical use of this document is negotiable and is way for the author to recoup from significant time investment email feedback to ld231782 longs lance colostate edu please note where you saw this which newsgroup etc change history v2 current cpsr pointer new unix mode examples digital telephony act steve jackson incident additions reorganization to anonymity section part note v2 post to sci crypt alt privacy news answers alt answers sci answers was cancelled by kamens because of incorrect subject line v2 major revisions new section for windows some email privacy items reorganized to network security section new sections for email liability issues anonymity history and responsibilities split into three files many new sources added particularly from eff and caf in new issues part commentary from news admin policy day automated posting starts v1 more newsgroups faqs added more most wanted posted to news answers future monthly posting to sci crypt alt privacy v0 formatted to columns for quoting etc miscellaneous resources sections added with cypherpunk servers and use warnings more unix examples ls and chmod posted to alt privacy comp society privacy v0 identity and privacy sections added anonymity expanded remailer addresses removed due to lack of information and instability posted to sci crypt v0 originally posted to the cypherpunks mailing list on as call to organize list of anonymous servers email ld231782 longs lance colostate edu for earlier versions see also part previous file what is identity on the internet why is identity un important on the internet how does my email address not identify me and my background how can find out more about somebody from their email address why is identification un stable on the internet what is the future of identification on the internet what is privacy on the internet why is privacy un important on the internet how in secure are internet networks how in secure is my account how in secure are my files and directories how in secure is windows how in secure is my email how am not liable for my email and postings how do provide more less information to others on my identity who is my sysadmin what does he know about me why is privacy un stable on the internet what is the future of privacy on the internet what is anonymity on the internet why is anonymity un important on the internet how can anonymity be protected on the internet what is anonymous mail what is anonymous posting why is anonymity un stable on the internet what is the future of anonymity on the internet part next file what are some known anonymous remailing and posting sites what are the responsibilities associated with anonymity how do kill anonymous postings what is the history behind anonymous posting servers what is the value of anonymity should anonymous posting to all groups be allowed what should system operators do with anonymous postings what is going on with anon penet fi maintained by helsingius this is part of the privacy anonymity faq obtained via anonymous ftp to pit manager mit edu pub usenet news answers net privacy or newsgroups news answers sci answers alt answers every days written by detweiler ld231782 longs lance colostate edu all rights reserved xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt privacy alt answers sci answers news answers path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net pad thai aktis com pad thai aktis com not for mail from ld231782 longs lance colostate edu detweiler newsgroups sci crypt alt privacy alt answers sci answers news answers subject privacy anonymity on the internet faq of supersedes net privacy part3 gza com followup to poster date apr organization tmp enterprises lines sender faqserv gza com approved news answers request mit edu expires may gmt message id net privacy part3 gza com references net privacy part1 gza com reply to ld231782 longs lance colostate edu nntp posting host pad thai aktis com summary notes on the use history and value of anonymous usenet posting and email remailing services last updated archive name net privacy part3 last modified version notes on anonymity on the internet compiled by detweiler ld231782 longs lance colostate edu what are some known anonymous remailing and posting sites what are the responsibilities associated with anonymity how do kill anonymous postings what is the history behind anonymous posting servers what is the value of anonymity should anonymous posting to all groups be allowed what should system operators do with anonymous postings what is going on with anon penet fi maintained by helsingius what are some known anonymous remailing and posting sites currently the most stable of anonymous remailing and posting sites is anon penet fi operated by julf penet fi for several months who has system adminstrator privileges and owns the equipment including anonymized mail usenet posting and return addresses no encryption send mail to help penet fi for information hal finney has contributed an instruction manual for the cypherpunk remailers on the ftp site soda berkeley edu pub cypherpunks hal instructions see also scripts tar unix scripts to aid remailer use and anonmail arj msdos batch files to aid remailer use ebrandt jarthur claremont edu anonymized mail request information from above address elee7h5 rosebud ee uh edu experimental anonymous remailer run karl barrus elee9sf menudo uh edu with encryption to the server request information from that address hal alumni caltech edu experimental remailer with encryption to server and return addresses request information from above address hh soda berkeley edu hh cicada berkeley edu hh pmantis berkeley edu experimental remailer include header request remailing to nowhere bsu cs bsu edu experimental remailer allowing one level of chaining run by chael hall request information from above address phantom mead washington edu experimental remailer with encryption to server finger site address for information notes cypherpunk remailers tend to be unstable because they are often running without site administrator knowledge liability issues are wholly unresolved so far all encryption is based on public key cryptography and pgp software see the question on cryptography encryption aspects message text destination address replies vary between sites multiple chaining alias unlinking and address encryption are mostly untested problematic or unsupported at this time what are the responsibilities associated with anonymity users use anonymity only if you have to frivolous uses weaken the seriousness and usefulness of the capability for others do not use anonymity to provoke harass or threaten others do not hide behind anonymity to evade established conventions on usenet such as posting binary pictures to regular newsgroups if posting large files be attentive to bandwidth considerations remember simply sending the posting to the service increases network traffic avoid posting anonymously to the regular hierarchy of usenet this is the mostly likely place to alienate readers the alt hierarchy is preferred give as much information as possible in the posting references etc remember that content is the only means for readers to judge the truth of the message and that any inaccuracies will tend to discredit the entire message and even future ones under the same handle be careful not to include information that will reveal your identity or enable someone to deduce it test the system by sending anonymized mail to yourself be aware of the policies of the anonymous site and respect them be prepared to forfeit your anonymity if you abuse the privilege be considerate and respectful of other objections to anonymity hit and run anonymity should be used with utmost reservation use services that provide anonymous return addresses instead be courteous to the system operator who may have invested large amounts of time be personally risking his account or dedicating his hardware all for your convenience operators document thoroughly acceptable and unacceptable uses in an introductory file that is sent to new users have coherent and consistent policy and stick to it state clearly what logging and monitoring is occurring describe your background interest and security measures will the general approach be totalitarian or lassaiz faire formulate plan for problematic ethical situations and anticipate potentially intense moral quandaries and dilemmas what if user is blackmailing someone through your service what if user posts suicidal messages through your service remember your users trust you to protect them in the site introductory note give clear examples of situations where you will take action and what these actions will be warn the user limit anonymity to email or posting only revoke the account out the user contact local administrator etc describe exactly the limitations of the software and hardware address the bandwidth limitations of your site report candidly and thoroughly all bugs that have occurred work closely with users to isolate and fix bugs address all bugs noted below under in stability of anonymity document the stability of the site how long has it been running what compromises have occured why are you running it what is your commitment to it include disclaimer in outgoing mail and messages include an address for complaints ideally appended to every outgoing item consult lawyer about your liability be committed to the long term stability of the site be prepared to deal with complaints and hate mail addressed to you if you do not own the hardware the system runs on or are not the system adminstrator consult those who do and are be considerate of providing anonymity to various groups if possible query group readers keep uniformity and simplicity of style in outgoing message format that can be screened effectively by kill files ensure the key text anon is somewhere in every header take precautions to ensure the security of the server from physical and network based attacks and infiltrations readers do not complain attack or discredit poster for the sole reason that he is posting anonymously make blanket condemnations that equate anonymity with cowardice and criminality or assail anonymous traffic in general for mostly neutral reasons its volume is heavy or increasing react to the anonymous information unemotionally abusive posters will be encouraged further if they get irrationally irate responses sometimes the most effective response is silence notify operators if very severe abuses occur such as piracy harassment extortion etc do not complain about postings being inappropriate because they offend you personally use kill files to screen anonymous postings if you object to the idea of anonymity itself avoid the temptation to proclaim that all anonymous postings should be barred from particular groups because no possible or conceivable need exists references see ftp eff org pub academic anonymity this article is an excerpt from an issue of fidonews on individual privacy and the use of handles it accepts the need of system operator to know the name of user but suggests that the use of handle is analogous to request to withhold the name in letter to the editor the article concludes with set of guidelines for preserving the right to be anonymous how do kill anonymous postings james thomas green jgreen zeus calpoly edu try putting this in your kill file anon anonymous this will search the headers of the messages and kill any that contain anon or anonymous in them not perfect and won kill followups note that anonymous server operators have the capability to mask anonymous postings under which the above method will not work so far this practice is not widespread but it may become more common as countermeasure to widespread anonymous filtering what is the history behind anonymous posting servers originally anonymous posting services were introduced for individual particularly volatile newsgroups where anonymity is almost the preferred method of communication such as talk abortion and alt sex bondage one of the first was one by dave mack started in for alt sex bondage another early one was wizvax methuen ma us run by stephanie gilgut gilgut enterprises but was disbanded due to lack of funds the system provided anonymous return addresses n7kbt rain com john opalko took up the functions of this server including reinstating the anonymous alias file the group alt personals has been chewing through servers like there no tomorrow spurred by the disappearance of wizvax and interested in researching the idea karl kleinpaste karl kleinpaste godiva nectar cs cmu edu developed his own system from scratch in six hours by this time the idea of extending the server to new more mainstream groups was starting to emerge and he explored the possibility partly at the specific request by multiple users for anonymity in other groups the intended advantage of my system was specifically to allow multiple group support with single anon identifier across all this was arguably the single biggest deficiency of previous anon systems kleinpaste posted message on rec nude asking users whether an anonymous service would be welcome there and judged consensus against it kleinpaste introduced what he calls fire extinguisher to squelch or plonk abusive users in response to complaints and used this in three cases nevertheless after few months of intense traffic he was eventually overwhelmed by the abuses of his server even as restricted as it was my system was subjected to abuses to the point where it was ordered dismantled by the facilities staff here such abuses started right after it was created in nov johan helsingius julf penet fi set up the most controversial anonymous site to date anon penet fi is based on scripts and code written by kleinpaste and supports anonymized mail posting and return addresses he initially wanted to confine the service to scandinavian users but expanded it to worldwide accessability in response to lots of international requests helsingius policy of allowing anonymous posting to every usenet newsgroup has been met with strong and serious ideological opposition by news adminstrators in news admin policy because of the relative newness and recent emergence of the medium abuses by anonymous posters tend to have higher visibility than routine abuses his total commitment to preservation of anonymity is also controversial for example in highly controversial and publicized case in feb an anonymous user posted supposed transcript of desperate crew dialogue during the challenger shuttle disaster via anon penet fi to sci astro despite that the transcript had been posted in the same place up to year earlier then non anonymously and actually originated not with the poster but new york news tabloid subsequent responses consisted largely of vociferous outrage at the poster use of anonymity reverberating through many newsgroups the original poster using the same anonymous handle later conceded that the story seemed likely to have been fabricated suggesting the plausible possibility that the original intent was not to provoke outrage but gauge reactions on the authenticity of the story albeit crudely free of personal risk from perceived association with the item the ensuing commotion generated queries for the original article by late entering readers the anonymous user later posted deliberately offensive comments at his detractors despite piercingly irate and outraged complaints and even the vocal opposition and verbal abuse of kleinpaste and eminent news operators helsingius has largely avoided use of the fire extingisher and the group bouncer mechanisms that limit the scope of the service as of march the anon penet fi site is best described as inundated it has registered over users in its initial three months of operation forwards messages day and approximately of all usenet postings are anonymized through the site the immense popularity is probably largely due to the capability for global anonymity which has allowed users to find creative uses in diverse areas not previously envisioned johan helsingius has been subject to extraordinary pressure to dismantle his server in feb at one point kleinpaste threatened publicly to organize sort of vigilante group of irate news operators to send out revocation commands on all messages originating from the site helsingius has also alluded to threats of flooding the server the server has crashed several times at least once due to saturation mailbombing through it by an anonymous user mr helsingius reports spending up to hours per day answering email requests alone associated with the service administration in response to the serious threats he disabled global group access temporarily for one week and encouraged his users to defend the service publicly based on fast moving dialogue and creative suggestions by cypherpunks helsingius has identified many security weaknesses and valuable new features for the service and is currently in the process of code development and testing he is planning on upgrading the ibm compatible machine to soon to handle the voluminous load and is considering integrating new system with very sophisticated functionality including multiple email aliases alias allocation control public key encryption etc very sophisticated anonymous posting system was set up in dec by clunie dclunie pax tpa com au that used cryptography in both directions to from the server for the highest degree of confidentiality seen so far however it was running on public access account and he had to shut it down after only several weeks upon receiving requests and conditions apparently ultimately originating from nsf representatives clunie has released the software to the public domain recently the idea of newsgroup devoted to whistleblowing on government abuses has received wide and focused attention and group formation is currently underway in the basic scenario the group would allow people to post pseudonymously using remailers and even establish reputations based on their authentifiable digital signatures the traffic may eventually reach reporters in the mainstream news media deltorto aol com has volunteered to attack multiple aspects of this project including distributing easy to read documentation on posting anonymization and encryption see also sections on views on anonymous posting below and what is going on with anon penet fi in this document thanks to carl kleinpaste karl kleinpaste godiva nectar cs cmu edu david clunie dclunie pax tpa com au and johan helsingius julf penet fi for contributions here what is the value of anonymity kondared purccvm bitnet think anonymous posts do help in focusing our attention on the content of one message sure lot of anonymous posts are abusive or frivolous but in most cases these are by users who find the anon facility novel once the novelty wears off they are stopping their pranks morgan engr uky edu wes morgan don mind seeing the miscellaneous hatred prejudice racism those things are part of our nature however the notion of providing anonymity shield for these ideas repulses me if they have such strong feelings why can they put their name on their postings quite frankly loathe communication with people who refuse to use their names dclunie pax tpa com au david clunie many seem to question the value of anonymity but who are they to say what risks another individual should take there is no question that in this rather conservative society that we live in holding certain views making certain statements adopting certain lifestyle are likely to result in public censure ridicule loss of status employment or even legal action given the heterogeneity of the legal jurisdictions from where the many contributors to usenet post who knows what is legal and what is not some say that anonymous posters are cowards and should stand up and be counted perhaps that is one point of view but what right do these detractors have to exercise such censorship from doug cc ysu edu doug sewell why is it censorship to not expect someone to speak for themselves without the cloak of anonymity this is at best lame argument you tell me why what you have to say requires anonymity and you tell me why the wishes of majority of non anonymous users of newsgroup should be disregarded when they don want anonymous posts anonymous users have less rights than any others they are not legitimate usenet participants would not honor rfds cfvs control messages or votes from one brad clarinet com brad templeton can think of no disadvantage caused by anon posting sites that doesn already exist other than the fact that they do make more naive net users who don know how to post anonymously the old way more prone to do it from mandel netcom com tom mandel cannot speak for others but regard anonymous postings in serious discussion as pretty much worthless views that hide behind the veil of anon are hardly worth the trouble of reading n8729 anon penet fi hank pankey since began posting anonymously to show support for general principles of personal privacy have been subject to far more abuse and attack than ever received before people seem to find it easier to flame and insult someone whose name they don know perhaps it easier to pretend that there is no person behind the email address who feels the sting of abusive comments anonymity does hinder some methods of controlling other posters actions people who seek such control will naturally oppose it from acearl leo bsuvc bsu edu instead of making this free er medium by allowing posters to protect themselves with anonymity simply require that all posters be prepared to discuss their sources of information and take the heat for unsubstantiated dribble this seems to be the way things are currently done xtkmg trentu ca kate gregory in misc kids there are three threads going on started by anonymous posters one was about changing jobs so as to work less hours job sharing and so on from woman who didn want anyone at her current place of work to know she was thinking of looking for work elsewhere the next was from woman who is thinking of having baby sometime soon and doesn want coworkers friends family etc etc to know all about it but who wants advice the third is about sex after parenthood actually this was started by people posting in the usual way but then it was pointed out that the anonymous posting service might let more people participate misc kids doesn seem to be suffering any harm from the presence of anonymous posters in fact it seems to have been helped by it hoey zogwarg etl army mil dan hoey while there has never been any real security against anonymous or forged postings on usenet the process has until now been sufficiently inconvenient error prone and undocumented to limit its use by persons who have not learned the culture of the net on the other hand recent use of the anonymous posting service on sci math seemed seemed to be student asking help on homework problem it has now been attributed to teacher asking for an explanation of dubious answer in his teaching guide he says his news posting is broken so he is using the anonymous service as mail to news gateway karl barrus elee9sf menudo uh edu some argue that the opinions of the people who hide behind veil of anonymity are worthless and that people should own up to their thoughts agree with the latter point in an ideal world we would all be sitting around engaging in socratic dialogues freely exchanging our opinions in an effort to learn but in an ideal world nobody will threaten you for your thoughts or ridicule you but we live in world where the people who don agree with you may try to harm you let face it some people aren going to agree with your opinion no matter how logically you try to present it or how reasoned out it may be this is sad since it does restrict people from voicing their opinions red redpoll neoucom edu richard depew the consensus seems to be that general anonymous posting service such as that at anon penet fi seems sufficiently corrosive of the trust and civility of the net that this particular experiment should be ended perhaps the next time the question comes up we can say we tried it we learned it does more harm than good and we stopped it from c96 vm urz uni heidelberg de alexander eichener anonymous posting has not created major problems aside from angering irate people like you who would rather ban anonymous pseudonymous posting altogether because real men can stand up for what they said or comparable puerile arguments as others have brought up dave elxr jpl nasa gov dave hayes what primal example of human nature have three questions for you folks do people really say different things to each other based upon whether their identity is or isn known are people really so affected by what other people say that the verbage is labeled abuse most importantly on forum that prizes itself on the freedom of communication that it enjoys is there really such thing as freedom of communication from terry geovision gvc com terry mcgonigal sigh just how many anon services are needed will everybody start running one soon what the purpose who stands to benefit when there are anon services then then out there where has this sudden fasination with anon services come from for better or imho worse it looks like we er gonna get stuck with these things and as much as don like the idea of services like this becoming the norm don really think there much to be done since it obvious that anyone who wants to can set one up with bit of work karl kleinpaste cs cmu edu karl kleinpaste weak reasoning with freedom comes responsibility dave elxr jpl nasa gov dave hayes responsibility isn real if it is enforced true responsibilty comes with no coercion should anonymous posting to all groups be allowed morgan engr uky edu wes morgan will be the first to admit that hold some controversial opinions indeed sure that none of us are completely orthodox in our opinions however ve received hundreds of anonymous email messages over the last few years fewer than of them were reasonable posts made with good motives it getting more and more difficult to remember why we need anonymity at all the abusers are once again lousing things up for those who truly need the service or those who would put it to good use not suggesting that we should ban anonymous servers as ve said there are several situations in which anonymity is good thing tm however the notion that anonymity shield should be automatically extended to every usenet discussion is ridiculous it opens the door to further abuse twpierce unix amherst edu tim pierce of course how does one determine whether group requests the service flat majority of posters voting in favor positive margin of votes or what no one speaks for newsgroup not convinced by the arguments that an anonymous posting service for all newsgroups is inherently bad idea simply because it diversion from the status quo since the status quo previously permitted anonymous posting to no newsgroups any anonymous posting service would reject the status quo hartman ulogic uucp richard hartman writes it is facist to suggest that newsgroup is best able to decide whether it wants to allow anonymous postings instead of having them forced upon them by an service administrator ogil quads uchicago edu brian ogilvie the service provides mechanism for forwarding mail to the original poster since most usenet readers don know john smith from jane doe except by their opinions and their address the effect of having an anonymous posting to which mail replies can be directed is minimal except for those who personally know the poster and the lack of anonymity could be serious any mechanism like this is liable to abuse but the benefits as well as the costs must be weighed limiting the service to alt groups or specific groups would not help those who want advice on sensitive issues in more professional newsgroups from tarl sw stratus com tarl neustaedter an additional point is that some of us find anonimity in technical matters to be profoundly offensive anonimity in different forums has different meanings if get phone call from someone who won identify himself hang up if get mail with no return address it goes into the garbage unopened if someone accosts me in the street while wearing mask back away carefully and expecting violence in technical discussion anonimity means that the individual isn willing to associate himself with the matter being discussed which discredits his utterances and makes listening to them waste of time anonimity leads to fun psych experiments the literature is filled with all the various things that people will do anonymously that they won otherwise including one notorious study involving torture that would not have passed today ethical standards fun stuff in any case fine leave us out of it from jbuck forney berkeley edu joe buck you obviously have never submitted an article to refereed journal where you will receive anonymous reviews through server the editor that behaves much like the one in finland you may reply and the editor will maintain the anonymity your comparison of someone who wants to express him herself on technical issue anonymously with person who approaches you on dark street with ski mask is just emotionally overwrought nonsense such posters pose no physical threat to you jik mit edu kamens it seems obvious to me that the default should be not to allow anonymous postings in newsgroup the usenet has always operated on the principle that the status quo should be kept unless there large number of people who want to change it if someone really needs to post message anonymous in newsgroup in which this usually isn done they can usually find someone on the net to do this for them they don need an automated service to do it and the automated service is by its nature incapable of making the judgment call necessary to decide whether particular posting really needs to be anonymous from twpierce unix amherst edu tim pierce for any newsgroup you name bet can envision scenario involving need for secrecy if an accurate content based filter of each anonymous posting could be devised to screen out those that don require secrecy wonderful but it can be done from lhp daimi aau dk lasse hiller petersen if newsgroup wants to be noise and nuisance free then it should call for moderation this should happen on per newsgroup basis and not as general usenet ban on anonymous postings of course one principle of moderation might be to keep out all anonymous postings and could be achieved automatically it would still be moderation personally would prefer moderation criteria being based on actual content david clunie dclunie pax tpa com au if group doesn want to receive certain posts it should become moderated there are clearly defined mechanisms on non alt groups for this to take place an automated moderator excluding posts from certain eg anonymous sites or individuals could easily be established if anyone wants to take such draconian approach then they are welcome to do so and good luck to them doubt if will be reading their group from dave frackit uucp dave ratcliffe what possible need would someone have for posting anonymously to sci group sure most adults are willing to post under their own names why would they want to hide behind an anonymous posting service ashamed of what they have to say or just trying to rile people without fear of being identified anonymous posting have their place in certain groups if or anyone else needs to tell you what those groups are then you ve been on another planet breathing exotic gases for too long from karl kleinpaste cs cmu edu it bloody fascinating that all the proponents of unimpeded universal anon posting access can seem to find any middle ground at all why is there such perception of absolutism where does this instant gratification syndrome come from want anon access and want it now who are the control freaks here from acearl leo bsuvc bsu edu remember this is newsgroup for posters writing about scientific issues anonymous discussion of scientific issues leads to bad science from noring netcom com jon noring though many have personal philosophical arguments against anonymous posters their arguments have not been compelling enough to convince me that omni newsgroup anonymous posting should be banned or severely restricted though cannot prove it it seems to me that those who do not like anonymous posting in principle do so for reasons that are personal read psychological discomfort rather than for reasons related to maintaining the integrity of usenet remember it is impossible to be able to ascertain all the conceivable and legitimate motives for anonymous posting to newsgroups one normally would not deem to be sensitive in general fear even letting newsgroup readers vote on either allowing or not allowing anonymous posting since priori they cannot know all the motives of legitimate posters and do not believe that any system should ever be instituted that would inhibit the posting of legitimate and informative posts lestat wixer cactus org lyle mackey writes personally don believe that pseudonymous postings are appropriate in serious discussion area if there is legitimate reason for concealing the posters identity perhaps but simply because they re not so sure if they want their name attached doesn qualify as legitimate in my book oh and if you can come up with legitimate purpose for anonymous postings please enlighten me sderby crick ssctr bcm tmc edu stuart derby three of our the founding fathers madison hamilton and jay seemed to think anonymous posting was ok the federalist papers were originally printed in new york newspapers with authorship attributed to publius wonder if you would find their purpose legitimate what should system operators do with anonymous postings from emcguire intellection com ed mcguire would like to know how to junk all articles posted by the anonymous service currently being discussed ideally would actually tell my feed site not to feed me articles posted by the anonymous service assuming the news performance release what is simple way to accomplish this or where should look to learn how to do it myself from dclunie pax tpa com au david clunie that bit draconian isn it have your users unanimously decided that they would like you to do this or have you decided for them from emcguire intellection com ed mcguire good question nobody has decided have no definite plan to do this just wanted the technical data carl kleinpaste karl kleinpaste godiva nectar cs cmu edu were to be in the position of offering such service again my promises of protection of anonymity would be limited not on the basis of personal opinion of what gets posted but on the basis of postings which disrupt the smooth operation of the usenet the most obvious and direct recourse would be to out the abusive individual less drastic possibilities exist the software supports fire extinguisher by which individuals can be prevented from posting john iastate edu john hascall since when is usenet democracy if someone wants to run an anonymous service that their business if you want to put that host in your killfile that your business if newsadmin wants to blanket drop all postings from that site that between them and the other people at that site if everyone ignores service the service effectively doesn exist from jik athena mit edu jonathan kamens nntp servers that allow posting from anyone are not service to the net they do the net disservice terminal servers have the same problems as open nntp servers they allow people who want to do illegal immoral unethical things on the internet to do so without accountability there are by now public access sites all over this country if not all over the world that allow very inexpensive access to the usenet and the internet there is no reason for nntp servers to allow anyone to post messages through them and there is no reason for terminal servers to allow anyone to connect to them and then make outbound connections through them perhaps when it was harder to get to the internet or the usenet open servers could be justified but not now jbotz mtholyoke edu jurgen botz think that what these points show clearly is that an anonymous posting service has great deal of responsibility both towards its clients and towards the net as whole such service should imho have set of well defined rules and contract that its clients should sign under the terms of which they are assured anonymity from an8785 anon penet fi is the problem that some are used to punishing posters who are upsetting in some vague way by complaining to the usually acquiescent sysadmin or organizations that the poster belongs to that surely is the most gutless approach to solving problems but my experience on the net shows that the same users who vilify anonymous postings are the first to write obsessively detailed grievances to the poster supervisor when his or her tranquility is disturbed by some intrusive or subversive post or another anonymous postings prevent just this kind of intimidation from gandalf cyberspace org eric schilling the main point would like to make here is that while we can go through and revise the news sw to reject anon posts to technical newsgroups or some such thing think the attempt will prove futile each attempt to modify news can result in changed approach by anon service providers to thwart the change think this would be pointless from julf penet fi johan helsingius have tried to stay out of this discussion and see where the discussion leads but now rally feel like have to speak up have repeatedly made clear that do block users if they continue their abuse after having been warned in many cases the users have taken heed of the warning and stopped and in some cases even apologized in public and when the warning has not had the desired effect have blocked number of users have also blocked access to groups where the readership has taken vote to ban anonymous postings although feel changing the newsgroup status to moderated is the only permanent solution for newsgroups that want to formalize discussion red redpoll neoucom edu richard depew does this mean that you are volunteering to issue request for discussion to ban anonymous postings or to moderate each of the newsgroups that your server can reach don think so but this illustrates the trouble that your server is causing please listen to the consensus of the news administrators in this group any newsgroup should be consulted before letting your server post messages to that group from c96 vm urz uni heidelberg de alexander eichener there is no pompous consensus of the news administrators here maybe you would like to invent one there is sizeable number of people who are concerned about the possible and to minor extent about the actual abuse of the server as it is configured now these concerns are respectable johan is dealing with them there are some few who rage with foam before their mouth and condemn the service altogether and number who defend it pointing out like kate gregory that even group like misc kids can benefit from pseudonymous postings from julf penet fi johan helsingius have answered lot of personal mail related to server abuse and as result of that blocked number of abusive users have also withdrawn the service from several newsgroups where the users have taken vote on the issue have not made any comments on news admin policy partly because the newly implemented password feature as emergency measure against security hole has kept me really busy answering user queries the last two weeks and partly because feel it is not for me to justify the service but for the users the problem with news admin policy is that the readership is rather elective representing people whith strong interest in centralised control from hartman ulogic uucp richard hartman this seems to be rather bigoted attitude would consider that this group is for anyone who wishes to discuss how the net should be controlled saying that we only have an interest in centralized control is clear indication of bias you are perfectly welcome to join in the discussions here to promote your views on control jbuck ohm berkeley edu this whole debate is lot of sound and fury signifying nothing because even if you all decide to ban anonymous posting servers it is not enforceable the only people who conceivably could enforce retrictions are those that control the international links policy changes should be made by cooperation not by attempting to dictate you need to persuade those who run the services to act like this through friendly persuasion not by trying to beat them over the head with stick especially stick you don even have spp zabriskie berkeley edu steve pope am finding this bias against pseudonymity boring our friend posting through penet has point the old guard would like to keep their network the way it always has been and this new thing these pseudonymous servers cuts into their turf so they whine and bitch about it and every time there the slightest abuse such as somebody sig being too long they try to parlay that into an argument against pseudonymity ll go on record as saying three cheers for the admins at anon servers like penet pax and n7kbt and for all the access service providers who are willing to preserve their clients privacy and pox on those who try to defeat and restrict pseudonymity mimir stein washington edu al billings wouldn help people get rid of anon postings as group if you don like what someone says then you put that anon address in your kill file not all of them of course if and when get an anon site going just going to assign fake names like jsmith instead of anon5564 to avoid most of the hassles you ll never know it is anonymous will you from anne alcor concordia ca anne bennett must admit to some astonishment at this argument see the value of anonymous postings under some circumstances yet believe strongly that these should be identified as such so that people who do not wish to read material from people who won identify themselves don have to fail to see what good you would be accomplishing and indeed surmise that you will cause many people inconvenience and annoyance by hiding the anonymity of postings from your anonymous site would you care to justify where the hell you get the gall to try to prevent people from effectively filtering their news as they see fit from dclunie pax tpa com au david clunie thought was out of reach here in australia too unfortunately one of the us sites involved in the us aus feed complained to the australian academic reasearch network through whom my site is connected not about anything in particular just the concept of anonymous mail having no redeeming features and consuming narrow bandwidth link with which can argue and that was that stop the service or face disconnection consider the demise of my service to have been rather unfortunate and wish the finnish remailer luck it is pity that there are very few if any similar services provided with in the us guess that the benefit of having constitution that guarantees one freedom of speech and legal and political system that conspires to subvert it in the name of the public good what is going on with anon penet fi run by helsingius from karl kleinpaste cs cmu edu funny how beating the rest of the usenet over the head with stick is ok if it anon penet fi and universal anon access but somehow people on the other side of the same equation not even arguing to shut it off entirely but rather just to have some control applied to the abuses that manifest themselves aren allowed to do that have written to johan several times in the last couple of weeks he used to reply to me quite readily after all was the source of the software as originally delivered to him he used to be downright prompt about replying to me funny now he being an impolite bastard who doesn answer mail at all even when it consists of really very civil queries from julf penet fi johan helsingius in your mail you told me you sent me one or more messages on feb th feb th and th the server was down and the flood of mail that resulted from the server coming up again crashed my own mail host the problem was aggregated by an abusive user sending thousands of messages to another user filling up that users mailbox the bounce messages ended up in my mailbox overflowing my local disk as well can only suppose that your message got lost in that hassle as have tried to answer as much as possible of the anon related messages get from routine mis addessed messages to complaints about the service on the average spend hours per day answering anon related messages from karl kleinpaste cs cmu edu why is it that everybody else has to put up with the impoliteness and insensitivity of the misuse of anon penet fi whose definitions of polite and sense apply and why why is universal anon access considered to be within the realm of this fuzzy concept of politeness in the first place think johan has long since crossed the line into being rude bastard and told him so in private mail little while ago at this point deeply regret having created an anonymous system supporting newsgroup and having given the code to johan didn copyright it but thought that some concept of politeness and good sense might follow it to new homes interesting that johan ideas of politeness and good sense seem to have nearly no interesection with mine could even cope with universal anon access if johan would be willing to engage in abuse control but somehow that seems to be outside the range of reality from julf penet fi johan helsingius there is no way for me to convey how sad and upset your message made me do to some extent understand your feelings but it still feels really bad running the server requires getting used to lot of flames but mindlessly abusive hate mail is so much easier to deal with than something like this as do respect and value your views and opinions to high degree no not asking for sympathy just wanted you to know that am really giving your views quite lot of weight when asked for the software was actually only going to provide the service to scandinavian users but lot of people requested that keep the service open to the international community now realize that ought to have contacted you at that point to ask how you feel about me using your stuff in such context again really want to apologise and will replace the remaining few pieces of code thet still stem from your system unfortunately there is no way to remove the ideas and structure got from you again am really sorry that the results of your work ended up being used in way that you don approve of and will be giving lot of hard thought to the possibility of shutting down the server alltogether from karl kleinpaste cs cmu edu think feeling especially rude and impolite if it good for johan it good for me after all he didn ask the greater usenet whether universal anon access was good idea he just did it yes seriously rude pain in the ass now and think ll arm the usenet death penalty slightly modified not for strategic whole site attack but tactical assault just an anon penet fi destruction only outside alt too let say to parrot this line people have been doing things like the udp that is cancelling others postings for years no one could ever stop them and it only politeness and good sense that has prevented them up to now in fact have people who have expressed privately the desire and ability to arm the udp ps no in fact there are not newsadmins ready to arm the udp it would be amusing to know how many people gulped hard when they read that though don see it as any different from johan configuration pps now that ve calmed some fears by the above ps there are newsadmins ready to arm the udp they ve asked for my code haven sent it yet only one site would be necessary to bring anon penet fi to screeching halt anyone can implement the udp on their own if they care to politeness and good sense prevents them from doing so wonder how long before one form of impoliteness brings on another form from julf penet fi johan helsingius it would be trivially easy to bring anon penet fi to screeching halt in fact it has happened couple of times already but as we are talking threats here let me make one as well very simple one if somebody uses something like the udp or maliciously brings down anon penet fi by some other means it will stay down but will let the users know why and name the person who did it ok as somebody said on this thread you have to take personal responsibility for your actions right from avs20 ccc amdahl com atul salgaonkar am very grateful and appreciative of this service courtesey of penet fi some important questions about my personal life career job were resolved due to kind help of other people who had been thru similar situations in return have also replied to anon postings where thought could make positive contribution in general anon service is great in my opinion although like any tool some people will not use it responsibly suggest that it should be kept alive wasting bandwidth is less important than saving lives think from us273532 mmm serc com elisa collins have been informed that the anonymous posting service to many newsgroups has been turned off as result of discussions in this newsgroup over people abusing it had been posting to nontechnical misc newsgroup about an intimate topic for which felt required privacy have received immeasurable help from the people in that newsgroup and have never used anonymity to behave in an abusive immature or unethical fashion toward anyone please folks believe me need this service please consider my point of view and permit admin anon penet fi to turn the service back on thank you see also part first file what is identity on the internet why is identity un important on the internet how does my email address not identify me and my background how can find out more about somebody from their email address why is identification un stable on the internet what is the future of identification on the internet what is privacy on the internet why is privacy un important on the internet how in secure are internet networks how in secure is my account how in secure are my files and directories how in secure is windows how in secure is my email how am not liable for my email and postings how do provide more less information to others on my identity who is my sysadmin what does he know about me why is privacy un stable on the internet what is the future of privacy on the internet what is anonymity on the internet why is anonymity un important on the internet how can anonymity be protected on the internet what is anonymous mail what is anonymous posting why is anonymity un stable on the internet what is the future of anonymity on the internet part previous file what unix programs are related to privacy how can learn about or use cryptography what is the cypherpunks mailing list what are some privacy related newsgroups faqs what is internet privacy enhanced mail pem what are other request for comments rfcs related to privacy how can run an anonymous remailer what are references on privacy in email what are some email usenet and internet use policies what is the mit crosslink anonymous message tv program what is digital cash what is hacker or cracker what is cypherpunk what is steganography and anonymous pools what is security through obscurity what are identity daemons what standards are needed to guard electronic privacy what is the electronic frontier foundation eff who are computer professionals for social responsibility cpsr what was operation sun devil and the steve jackson game case what is integrated services digital network isdn what is the national research and education network nren what is the fbi proposed digital telephony act what other legislation is related to privacy on networks what are references on rights in cyberspace what is the computers and academic freedom caf archive what is the background behind the internet how is internet anarchy like the english language most wanted list change history this is part of the privacy anonymity faq obtained via anonymous ftp to pit manager mit edu pub usenet news answers net privacy or newsgroups news answers sci answers alt answers every days written by detweiler ld231782 longs lance colostate edu all rights reserved xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp org eff talk sci crypt newsgroups comp org eff talk sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu moe ksu ksu edu usenet feed umr edu ckincy from ckincy cs umr edu charles kincy subject re pgp pem and rfc was cryptography patents followup to comp org eff talk misc test sci crypt alt flame references apr10 umr edu apr16 natasha portal com date fri apr gmt nntp posting host next4 cs umr edu organization university of missouri rolla rolla mo sender cnews umr edu umr usenet news post message id apr16 umr edu lines in article apr16 natasha portal com bob natasha portal com bob cain writes hope my cynicism is misplaced here go ahead not afraid to be wrong every once in while but have an uneasy feeling that am right it is and you are wrong yet you emotionally state bunch of crap as fact with tiny disclaimer at the end check your facts first and grow up why is there such strong correlation between interest in cryptography and immaturity wonder oh see flame someone tell them that they are immature tell them they are wrong and then don offer any proof for your assertions you really are putz put up or shut up cpk it been days do you know where your wallet is path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu swrinde elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl waikato ac nz aukuni ac nz cs18 cs aukuni ac nz pgut1 newsgroups sci crypt subject re fifth amendment and passwords message id apr16 cs aukuni ac nz from pgut1 cs aukuni ac nz peter gutmann date fri apr gmt references apr15 magnus acs ohio state edu c5jzsz jzo cs uiuc edu organization computer science dept university of auckland lines in c5jzsz jzo cs uiuc edu kadie cs uiuc edu carl kadie writes the crypto key disclosure issue hasn come up yet but current law suggests that it loser for the defendant he ll be compelled to turn over the key it has actually come up or it will in week or two in nz ll post the outcome when the trial finishes which could take months btw overall it looks like you can be forced to reveal password if anyone can provide convincing legal argument to the contrary ie an actual court case be most interested peter pgut1 cs aukuni ac nz gutmann cs aukuni ac nz gutmann kosmos wcc govt nz peterg kcbbs gen nz peter nacjack gen nz peter phlarnschlorpht nacjack gen nz in order of preference one of em bound to work think or thwim newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech udel darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu spool mu edu agate linus linus mitre org shirey mac mitre org shirey from rob shirey shirey mitre org subject isoc symposium on net security message id apr16 linus mitre org xxmessage id a7f43aaa5a058c64 shirey mac mitre org xxdate fri apr gmt sender news linus mitre org news service nntp posting host shirey mac mitre org organization the mitre corporation mclean virginia usa useragent nuntius v1 d20 date fri apr gmt lines call for papers the internet society symposium on network and distributed system security february catamaran hotel san diego california the symposium will bring together people who are building software and hardware to provide network or distributed system security services the symposium is intended for those interested in practical aspects of network and distributed system security rather than in theory symposium proceedings will be published by the internet society topics for the symposium include but are not limited to the following design and implementation of services access control authentication availability confidentiality integrity and non repudiation including criteria for placing services at particular protocol layers design and implementation of security mechanisms and support services encipherment and key management systems authorization and audit systems and intrusion detection systems requirements and architectures for distributed applications and network functions message handling file transport remote file access directories time synchronization interactive sessions remote data base management and access routing voice and video multicast and conferencing news groups network management boot services mobile computing and remote special issues and problems in security architecture such as very large systems like the international internet and high speed systems like the gigabit testbeds now being built interplay between security goals and other goals efficiency reliability interoperability resource sharing and low cost general chair dan nessett lawrence livermore national laboratory program chairs russ housley xerox special information systems rob shirey the mitre corporation program committee dave balenson trusted information systems tom berson anagram laboratories matt bishop dartmouth college ed cain defense information systems agency jim ellis cert coordination center steve kent bolt beranek and newman john linn independent consultant clifford neuman information sciences institute michael roe cambridge university rob rosenthal national institute of standards and technology jeff schiller massachusetts institute of technology ravi sandhu george mason university peter yee national aeronautics and space administration submissions the committee seeks both original technical papers and proposals for panel discussions on technical and other topics of general interest technical papers should be pages in length panels should include three or four speakers panel proposal must name the panel chair include one page topic introduction authored by the chair and also include one page position summaries authored by each speaker both the technical papers and the panel papers will appear in the proceedings submissions must be made by august submissions should be made via electronic mail to symposium smiley mitre org submissions may be in either of two formats ascii or postscript if the committee is unable to read postscript submission it will be returned and ascii requested therefore postscript submissions should arrive well before august if electronic submission is absolutely impossible submissions should be sent via postal mail to robert shirey mail stop z202 the mitre corporation mclean virginia usa all submissions must include both an internet electronic mail address and postal address each submission will be acknowledged through the medium by which it is received if acknowledgment is not received within seven days please contact either rob shirey shirey mitre org or russ housley housley mclean csd xerox com or telephone mana weigand at mitre in mclean authors and panelists will be notified of acceptance by october instructions for preparing camera ready copy for the proceedings will be postal mailed at that time the camera ready copy must be received by november path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech news feed peachnet edu darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu utnut nott cunews revcan balsam uuisis tanda marc from marc tanda isis org marc thibault newsgroups sci crypt subject re pem and mime message id dn5 tanda isis org date thu apr edt references qfi4binnqk3 shelley washington edu qg8m2 e5 nigel msen com reply to marc tanda isis org distribution world organization thibault friends lines in article qg8m2 e5 nigel msen com edward vielmetti writes would suggest that attractive mime formatted news messages day would be sufficient to get few people thinking about adding mime support to news readers esp if the content is really worth it but that just the problem there is no such thing as mime formatted by analogy mime is content labelling standard for the box not specification for the contents themselves it provides standard for like minded individuals to exchange mail containing an agreed upon data format you say tomahto say tomaeto you say postscript say sgml cheers marc marc thibault cis put another log marc tanda isis org nc freenet aa185 on the fire begin pgp public key block version mqbnaiqxytkaaaecalfehyp0yc80s1scfvjspj5escao hihtnefrrn vuecsavh aauwpiugyv2n8n lftpnnlc42ms c8pjupykvi8abrg0i01hcmmgvghpymf1bhqg pg1hcmnadgfuzgeuaxnpcy5vcmc hlnv end pgp public key block newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet dove csrc ncsl nist gov clipper from clipper csrc ncsl nist gov clipper chip announcement subject text of white house announcement and as on clipper chip encryption message id c5l17v gh5 dove nist gov sender news dove nist gov organization national institute of standards technology distribution na date fri apr gmt lines note this file will also be available via anonymous file transfer from csrc ncsl nist gov in directory pub nistnews and via the nist computer security bbs at the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april statement by the press secretary the president today announced new initiative that will bring the federal government together with industry in voluntary program to improve the security and privacy of telephone communications while meeting the legitimate needs of law enforcement the initiative will involve the creation of new products to accelerate the development and use of advanced and secure telecommunications networks and wireless communications links for too long there has been little or no dialogue between our private sector and the law enforcement community to resolve the tension between economic vitality and the real challenges of protecting americans rather than use technology to accommodate the sometimes competing interests of economic growth privacy and law enforcement previous policies have pitted government against industry and the rights of privacy against law enforcement sophisticated encryption technology has been used for years to protect electronic funds transfer it is now being used to protect electronic mail and computer files while encryption technology can help americans protect business secrets and the unauthorized release of personal information it also can be used by terrorists drug dealers and other criminals state of the art microcircuit called the clipper chip has been developed by government engineers the chip represents new approach to encryption technology it can be used in new relatively inexpensive encryption devices that can be attached to an ordinary telephone it scrambles telephone communications using an encryption algorithm that is more powerful than many in commercial use today this new technology will help companies protect proprietary information protect the privacy of personal phone conversations and prevent unauthorized release of data transmitted electronically at the same time this technology preserves the ability of federal state and local law enforcement agencies to intercept lawfully the phone conversations of criminals key escrow system will be established to ensure that the clipper chip is used to protect the privacy of law abiding americans each device containing the chip will have two unique keys numbers that will be needed by authorized government agencies to decode messages encoded by the device when the device is manufactured the two keys will be deposited separately in two key escrow data bases that will be established by the attorney general access to these keys will be limited to government officials with legal authorization to conduct wiretap the clipper chip technology provides law enforcement with no new authorities to access the content of the private conversations of americans to demonstrate the effectiveness of this new technology the attorney general will soon purchase several thousand of the new devices in addition respected experts from outside the government will be offered access to the confidential details of the algorithm to assess its capabilities and publicly report their findings the chip is an important step in addressing the problem of encryption dual edge sword encryption helps to protect the privacy of individuals and industry but it also can shield criminals and terrorists we need the clipper chip and other approaches that can both provide law abiding citizens with access to the encryption they need and prevent criminals from using it to hide their illegal activities in order to assess technology trends and explore new approaches like the key escrow system the president has directed government agencies to develop comprehensive policy on encryption that accommodates the privacy of our citizens including the need to employ voice or data encryption for business purposes the ability of authorized officials to access telephone calls and data under proper court or other legal order when necessary to protect our citizens the effective and timely use of the most modern technology to build the national information infrastructure needed to promote economic growth and the competitiveness of american industry in the global marketplace and the need of companies to manufacture and export high technology products the president has directed early and frequent consultations with affected industries the congress and groups that advocate the privacy rights of individuals as policy options are developed the administration is committed to working with the private sector to spur the development of national information infrastructure which will use new telecommunications and computer technologies to give americans unprecedented access to information this infrastructure of high speed networks information superhighways will transmit video images hdtv programming and huge data files as easily as today telephone system transmits voice since encryption technology will play an increasingly important role in that infrastructure the federal government must act quickly to develop consistent comprehensive policies regarding its use the administration is committed to policies that protect all americans right to privacy while also protecting them from those who break the law further information is provided in an accompanying fact sheet the provisions of the president directive to acquire the new encryption technology are also available for additional details call mat heyman national institute of standards and technology questions and answers about the clinton administration telecommunications initiative does this approach expand the authority of government agencies to listen in on phone conversations no clipper chip technology provides law enforcement with no new authorities to access the content of the private conversations of americans suppose law enforcement agency is conducting wiretap on drug smuggling ring and intercepts conversation encrypted using the device what would they have to do to decipher the message they would have to obtain legal authorization normally court order to do the wiretap in the first place they would then present documentation of this authorization to the two entities responsible for safeguarding the keys and obtain the keys for the device being used by the drug smugglers the key is split into two parts which are stored separately in order to ensure the security of the key escrow system who will run the key escrow data banks the two key escrow data banks will be run by two independent entities at this point the department of justice and the administration have yet to determine which agencies will oversee the key escrow data banks how strong is the security in the device how can be sure how strong the security is this system is more secure than many other voice encryption systems readily available today while the algorithm will remain classified to protect the security of the key escrow system we are willing to invite an independent panel of cryptography experts to evaluate the algorithm to assure all potential users that there are no unrecognized vulnerabilities whose decision was it to propose this product the national security council the justice department the commerce department and other key agencies were involved in this decision this approach has been endorsed by the president the vice president and appropriate cabinet officials who was consulted the congress industry we have on going discussions with congress and industry on encryption issues and expect those discussions to intensify as we carry out our review of encryption policy we have briefed members of congress and industry leaders on the decisions related to this initiative will the government provide the hardware to manufacturers the government designed and developed the key access encryption microcircuits but it is not providing the microcircuits to product manufacturers product manufacturers can acquire the microcircuits from the chip manufacturer that produces them who provides the clipper chip mykotronx programs it at their facility in torrance california and will sell the chip to encryption device manufacturers the programming function could be licensed to other vendors in the future how do buy one of these encryption devices we expect several manufacturers to consider incorporating the clipper chip into their devices if the administration were unable to find technological solution like the one proposed would the administration be willing to use legal remedies to restrict access to more powerful encryption devices this is fundamental policy question which will be considered during the broad policy review the key escrow mechanism will provide americans with an encryption product that is more secure more convenient and less expensive than others readily available today but it is just one piece of what must be the comprehensive approach to encryption technology which the administration is developing the administration is not saying since encryption threatens the public safety and effective law enforcement we will prohibit it outright as some countries have effectively done nor is the saying that every american as matter of right is entitled to an unbreakable commercial encryption product there is false tension created in the assessment that this issue is an either or proposition rather both concerns can be and in fact are harmoniously balanced through reasoned balanced approach such as is proposed with the clipper chip and similar encryption techniques what does this decision indicate about how the clinton administration policy toward encryption will differ from that of the bush administration it indicates that we understand the importance of encryption technology in telecommunications and computing and are committed to working with industry and public interest groups to find innovative ways to protect americans privacy help businesses to compete and ensure that law enforcement agencies have the tools they need to fight crime and terrorism will the devices be exportable will other devices that use the government hardware voice encryption devices are subject to export control requirements case by case review for each export is required to ensure appropriate use of these devices the same is true for other encryption devices one of the attractions of this technology is the protection it can give to companies operating at home and abroad with this in mind we expect export licenses will be granted on case by case basis for companies seeking to use these devices to secure their own communications abroad we plan to review the possibility of permitting wider exportability of these products path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu hobbes physics uiowa edu news iastate edu iscsvax uni edu sunfish charlie usd edu vkub newsgroups sci crypt subject re keeping your mouth shut was hard drive security message id c5k1ce sunfish usd edu from vkub charlie usd edu vince kub date fri apr gmt reply to vkub charlie usd edu sender news sunfish usd edu references c4ukkz g6 telebit com bu edu apr13 yuma acns colostate edu apr13 cadkey com organization the university of south dakota computer science dept nntp posting host charlie lines in article apr13 cadkey com eric cadkey com eric holtman writes in article apr13 yuma acns colostate edu holland cs colostate edu douglas craig holland writes not lawyer so correct me if wrong but doing that could be considered obstruction of justice which could land you in prison for quite while the thing that great about the secret key is it is idea encrypted so even if the fbi do get the key they re sol unless they know the magic word if they try to force you to give them your pass phrase just say oops forgot since the burden of proof is still on the prosecution in this country if you keep your mouth shut how can they prove that you didn forget your pass phrase well no lawyer but ll supply some ancedotal evidence which may change your mind note do not agree at all with what went on in this case and neither will most of you that doesn change the fact that it did happen right here in america even about three or four years ago there was rather nasty custody case in or around washington the upshot was an ex husband was suing for visitation rights which were granted the woman believed that the man had been sexually molesting her children much like allen farrow but not as famous anyhows she spirits away the kids and refuses to tell the court where they are and denies him visitation rights she keeps her mouth shut and what happens she sits in jail for almost year on contempt of court until the legislature passes special law limiting the time person can be held if they hadn passed the law she most likely still be there the kids were in new zealand belive now story finished commetary starting imho the only reason the legislature moved was because there was an outpouring of public sympathy for this woman most people believed she was right and were outraged not likely to happen for joe random drug dealer child molester or perfectly innocent privacy lover who might have something to hide innocent until proven guilty doesn mean you get to walk out of court humming happy tune because the fbi can read your disk just ask those held for contempt those who can make bail etc etc again disagree totally with the concept of holding someone based on suspicion but people who keep thinking that it won happen are bound to get rude shock when it does also not lawyer etc but if remember correctly the contempt of court business is used in order to compel cooperation with what is perhaps questionably different issue the legitimate business of that court quite literally the party is found guilty of holding the court in contempt now the original scheme as suggested here would be to have the key disappear if certain threatening conditions are met once the key is gone there is no question of contempt of court as there is nothing to compell the key is no longer there to be produced obstruction of justice would be different issue but if the suspect in question would have some legitmate reason to protect his data from prying eyes however extenuated think that this charge would be hard nut to make perhaps it is time for lawyer to step in and clear this all up vincent kub wd0dbx saints should always be judged guilty until they are proven vkub charlie usd edu innocent geo orwell cherry st it is good to die before one has vermillion dakota done anything deserving of death phone or fax to anaxandirdes king of sparta begin pgp public key block version mqbnaiudo1maaaecakrkuuww tqsoa1nd gasbpxcdhsrhpmebpjklyikuijzat6 auo hnqw yicvajlxspb5d2gimc09tg2sgy0abrg0cvzpbmnliet1yg iuub end pgp public key block newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com emory sol ctr columbia edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu utnut torn news ccs queensu ca hooper from hooper ccs queensu ca andy hooper subject re text of white house announcement and as on clipper chip encryption message id c5l4l8 lp knot ccs queensu ca sender news knot ccs queensu ca netnews control organization queen university kingston references c5l17v gh5 dove nist gov distribution na date fri apr gmt lines isn clipper trademark of fairchild semiconductor andy hooper newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com paladin american edu gatech swrinde elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl netcomsv netcom com tcmay from tcmay netcom com timothy may subject re text of white house announcement and as on clipper chip encryption message id tcmayc5l564 f8g netcom com organization netcom on line communication services guest newsreader tin pl5 references c5l17v gh5 dove nist gov distribution na date fri apr gmt lines well it now seems obvious what professor denning was doing last fall when this key escrow trial balloon was raised all the more need for end to end encryption schemes that bypass the government approved system by the way the clipper name isn this already used for the clipper processor from intergraph doubt they re the ones making the chip so name conflict may be present tim may timothy may crypto anarchy encryption digital money tcmay netcom com anonymous networks digital pseudonyms zero knowledge reputations information markets aptos ca black markets collapse of governments higher power public key pgp and mailsafe available newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com news ans net malgudi oar net zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com hpscit sc hp com nsa hp com jad from jad nsa hp com john dilley subject compress crypt foo des foo sender news nsa hp com news message id jad apr16100318 pimlico nsa hp com date fri apr gmt distribution sci lines organization networked systems architecture have bunch of questions about the encryption scheme referenced in the subject of this message what is the relative data privacy provided by the above sequence as compared with straight des does the addition of compression then encrypting make the cyphertext significantly harder to crack using current methods than straight des would running crypt after des provide greater data privacy is it important to remove the constant compress header before encryption thank you net for your wisdom jad john dilley jad nsa hp com xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp org eff talk sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu usc rand org jim from jim rand org jim gillogly newsgroups comp org eff talk sci crypt subject clipper chip and crypto key escrow summary bohica keywords encryption wiretap clipper key escrow mykotronx message id rand org date apr gmt sender news rand org organization banzai institute lines nntp posting host mycroft rand org this document is in the anonymous ftp directory at nist looks to me like the other shoe has dropped jim gillogly trewesday astron note this file will also be available via anonymous file transfer from csrc ncsl nist gov in directory pub nistnews and via the nist computer security bbs at the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april statement by the press secretary the president today announced new initiative that will bring the federal government together with industry in voluntary program to improve the security and privacy of telephone communications while meeting the legitimate needs of law enforcement the initiative will involve the creation of new products to accelerate the development and use of advanced and secure telecommunications networks and wireless communications links for too long there has been little or no dialogue between our private sector and the law enforcement community to resolve the tension between economic vitality and the real challenges of protecting americans rather than use technology to accommodate the sometimes competing interests of economic growth privacy and law enforcement previous policies have pitted government against industry and the rights of privacy against law enforcement sophisticated encryption technology has been used for years to protect electronic funds transfer it is now being used to protect electronic mail and computer files while encryption technology can help americans protect business secrets and the unauthorized release of personal information it also can be used by terrorists drug dealers and other criminals state of the art microcircuit called the clipper chip has been developed by government engineers the chip represents new approach to encryption technology it can be used in new relatively inexpensive encryption devices that can be attached to an ordinary telephone it scrambles telephone communications using an encryption algorithm that is more powerful than many in commercial use today this new technology will help companies protect proprietary information protect the privacy of personal phone conversations and prevent unauthorized release of data transmitted electronically at the same time this technology preserves the ability of federal state and local law enforcement agencies to intercept lawfully the phone conversations of criminals key escrow system will be established to ensure that the clipper chip is used to protect the privacy of law abiding americans each device containing the chip will have two unique keys numbers that will be needed by authorized government agencies to decode messages encoded by the device when the device is manufactured the two keys will be deposited separately in two key escrow data bases that will be established by the attorney general access to these keys will be limited to government officials with legal authorization to conduct wiretap the clipper chip technology provides law enforcement with no new authorities to access the content of the private conversations of americans to demonstrate the effectiveness of this new technology the attorney general will soon purchase several thousand of the new devices in addition respected experts from outside the government will be offered access to the confidential details of the algorithm to assess its capabilities and publicly report their findings the chip is an important step in addressing the problem of encryption dual edge sword encryption helps to protect the privacy of individuals and industry but it also can shield criminals and terrorists we need the clipper chip and other approaches that can both provide law abiding citizens with access to the encryption they need and prevent criminals from using it to hide their illegal activities in order to assess technology trends and explore new approaches like the key escrow system the president has directed government agencies to develop comprehensive policy on encryption that accommodates the privacy of our citizens including the need to employ voice or data encryption for business purposes the ability of authorized officials to access telephone calls and data under proper court or other legal order when necessary to protect our citizens the effective and timely use of the most modern technology to build the national information infrastructure needed to promote economic growth and the competitiveness of american industry in the global marketplace and the need of companies to manufacture and export high technology products the president has directed early and frequent consultations with affected industries the congress and groups that advocate the privacy rights of individuals as policy options are developed the administration is committed to working with the private sector to spur the development of national information infrastructure which will use new telecommunications and computer technologies to give americans unprecedented access to information this infrastructure of high speed networks information superhighways will transmit video images hdtv programming and huge data files as easily as today telephone system transmits voice since encryption technology will play an increasingly important role in that infrastructure the federal government must act quickly to develop consistent comprehensive policies regarding its use the administration is committed to policies that protect all americans right to privacy while also protecting them from those who break the law further information is provided in an accompanying fact sheet the provisions of the president directive to acquire the new encryption technology are also available for additional details call mat heyman national institute of standards and technology questions and answers about the clinton administration telecommunications initiative does this approach expand the authority of government agencies to listen in on phone conversations no clipper chip technology provides law enforcement with no new authorities to access the content of the private conversations of americans suppose law enforcement agency is conducting wiretap on drug smuggling ring and intercepts conversation encrypted using the device what would they have to do to decipher the message they would have to obtain legal authorization normally court order to do the wiretap in the first place they would then present documentation of this authorization to the two entities responsible for safeguarding the keys and obtain the keys for the device being used by the drug smugglers the key is split into two parts which are stored separately in order to ensure the security of the key escrow system who will run the key escrow data banks the two key escrow data banks will be run by two independent entities at this point the department of justice and the administration have yet to determine which agencies will oversee the key escrow data banks how strong is the security in the device how can be sure how strong the security is this system is more secure than many other voice encryption systems readily available today while the algorithm will remain classified to protect the security of the key escrow system we are willing to invite an independent panel of cryptography experts to evaluate the algorithm to assure all potential users that there are no unrecognized vulnerabilities whose decision was it to propose this product the national security council the justice department the commerce department and other key agencies were involved in this decision this approach has been endorsed by the president the vice president and appropriate cabinet officials who was consulted the congress industry we have on going discussions with congress and industry on encryption issues and expect those discussions to intensify as we carry out our review of encryption policy we have briefed members of congress and industry leaders on the decisions related to this initiative will the government provide the hardware to manufacturers the government designed and developed the key access encryption microcircuits but it is not providing the microcircuits to product manufacturers product manufacturers can acquire the microcircuits from the chip manufacturer that produces them who provides the clipper chip mykotronx programs it at their facility in torrance california and will sell the chip to encryption device manufacturers the programming function could be licensed to other vendors in the future how do buy one of these encryption devices we expect several manufacturers to consider incorporating the clipper chip into their devices if the administration were unable to find technological solution like the one proposed would the administration be willing to use legal remedies to restrict access to more powerful encryption devices this is fundamental policy question which will be considered during the broad policy review the key escrow mechanism will provide americans with an encryption product that is more secure more convenient and less expensive than others readily available today but it is just one piece of what must be the comprehensive approach to encryption technology which the administration is developing the administration is not saying since encryption threatens the public safety and effective law enforcement we will prohibit it outright as some countries have effectively done nor is the saying that every american as matter of right is entitled to an unbreakable commercial encryption product there is false tension created in the assessment that this issue is an either or proposition rather both concerns can be and in fact are harmoniously balanced through reasoned balanced approach such as is proposed with the clipper chip and similar encryption techniques what does this decision indicate about how the clinton administration policy toward encryption will differ from that of the bush administration it indicates that we understand the importance of encryption technology in telecommunications and computing and are committed to working with industry and public interest groups to find innovative ways to protect americans privacy help businesses to compete and ensure that law enforcement agencies have the tools they need to fight crime and terrorism will the devices be exportable will other devices that use the government hardware voice encryption devices are subject to export control requirements case by case review for each export is required to ensure appropriate use of these devices the same is true for other encryption devices one of the attractions of this technology is the protection it can give to companies operating at home and abroad with this in mind we expect export licenses will be granted on case by case basis for companies seeking to use these devices to secure their own communications abroad we plan to review the possibility of permitting wider exportability of these products jim gillogly trewesday astron path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu usc rand org jim from jim rand org jim gillogly newsgroups sci crypt subject secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow keywords encryption wiretap clipper key escrow mykotronx message id rand org date apr gmt references rand org sender news rand org organization banzai institute lines nntp posting host mycroft rand org may as well look at one piece of this at time this paragraph to demonstrate the effectiveness of this new technology the attorney general will soon purchase several thousand of the new devices in addition respected experts from outside the government will be offered access to the confidential details of the algorithm to assess its capabilities and publicly report their findings means they aren planning to make it public as was done with des as it says in both sci crypt faqs there no way we are going to achieve the same level of comfort with clipper that we finally have with des if we can actually get our hands on the bits and watch them flow around even the best experts aren going to think of everything look how long it took biham and shamir to get handle on just how good des is and for all we know there still more to learn jim gillogly trewesday astron newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech usenet ins cwru edu agate linus linus mitre org bistromath mitre org ptrei from ptrei bistromath mitre org peter trei subject re fifth amendment and passwords message id apr16 linus mitre org sender news linus mitre org news service nntp posting host bistromath mitre org organization the mitre corporation references apr15 magnus acs ohio state edu c5jzsz jzo cs uiuc edu date fri apr gmt lines in article c5jzsz jzo cs uiuc edu kadie cs uiuc edu carl kadie writes ashall magnus acs ohio state edu andrew hall writes am postive someone will correct me if am wrong but doesn the fifth also cover not being forced to do actions that are self incriminating from mike godwin mnemonic eff org posted with permission carl no but they could compell you to produce the key to safe where as it happens evidence that will convict you is stored the crypto key disclosure issue hasn come up yet but current law suggests that it loser for the defendant he ll be compelled to turn over the key the test for compelled self incrimination is whether the material to be disclosed in itself tends to inculpate the discloser in the example gave above the safe key itself has no testimonial value ergo it can be disclosed under compulsion subpoena duces tecum moreover the government can always immunize the disclosure of crypto key compelling you to disclose the key at the price of not using the fact of your disclosure as evidence in the case against you of course they can use whatever they discover as result of this disclosure against you mike lets carry this one step further suppose the text of the key is in itself conclusive evidence of the same crime for which the encrypted material is further evidence find myself envisaging scenario like this you have made some scans of peanuts strips you encrypt them the key is phrase the comic police haul you in they seize your system they find the encrypted file cp whats that file you take the fifth cp what the keyphrase to that file you take the fifth judge you have to reveal the keyphrase disagree but not judge you your honor revealing the keyphrase in it own right would tend to incriminate me of breaking laws independent of what may or may not be in the encrypted file judge grant you immunity from whatever may be learned from the key itself you the keyphrase is confess to deliberately evading copyright the file encoded with this keyphrase contains illegal scans of copyrighted peanuts strips judge and cp oh how will they get you now not saying that they won or can or even that they shouldn but what legal mechanism will they use should we be crossposting this to misc legal peter trei ptrei mitre org newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sol ctr columbia edu ira uka de math fu berlin de ifmsun8 ifm uni hamburg de rzsun2 informatik uni hamburg de fbihh bontchev from bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de vesselin bontchev subject re text of white house announcement and as on clipper chip encryption message id bontchev fbihh sender news informatik uni hamburg de mr news reply to bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de organization virus test center university of hamburg references c5l17v gh5 dove nist gov distribution na date fri apr gmt lines clipper csrc ncsl nist gov clipper chip announcement writes the president today announced new initiative that will bring the federal government together with industry in voluntary program to improve the security and privacy of telephone communications while meeting the legitimate needs of law enforcement nice formulation for the introduction of the first encryption devices with built in trapdoors just like the feds wanted for too long there has been little or no dialogue between our private sector and the law enforcement community to resolve the tension between economic vitality and the real challenges of protecting americans rather than use technology to accommodate the sometimes competing interests of economic growth privacy and law enforcement previous policies have pitted government against industry and the rights of privacy against law enforcement bla bla protect electronic mail and computer files while encryption technology can help americans protect business secrets and the unauthorized release of personal information it also can be used by terrorists drug dealers and other criminals indeed and the current proposal does nothing to prevent the latter an ordinary telephone it scrambles telephone communications using an encryption algorithm that is more powerful than many in commercial use today this doesn say much there are many incredibly weak encryption algorithms in commercial use today this new technology will help companies protect proprietary information protect the privacy of personal phone conversations and prevent unauthorized release of data transmitted electronically except from the government at the same time this technology preserves the ability of federal state and local law enforcement agencies to intercept lawfully the phone conversations of criminals nope the criminals won be stupid enough to use the new chip they ll use something secure this technology provides only means to intercept the phone conversations of people who are stupid enough to use it agencies to decode messages encoded by the device when the device is manufactured the two keys will be deposited separately in two key escrow data bases that will be established by the attorney general access to these keys will be limited to government officials with legal authorization to conduct wiretap that is the government has the keys it doesn matter much if they are in one or in two of its hands the clipper chip technology provides law enforcement with no new authorities to access the content of the private conversations of americans correct it does however provide those americans with the false sense of privacy devices in addition respected experts from outside the government will be offered access to the confidential details of the algorithm to assess its capabilities and publicly report their findings if the screening is not public it cannot be trusted some people do not trust des even today after all the examinations only because some parts of its design were kept secret the chip is an important step in addressing the problem of encryption dual edge sword encryption helps to protect the privacy of individuals and industry but it also can shield criminals and terrorists we need the clipper chip and other approaches that can both provide law abiding citizens with access to the encryption they need and prevent criminals from using it to hide their illegal activities in order to assess technology so they ll use different technology to hide their illegal activities so will those law abiding citizens who do not trust their government not to misuse its abilities to decrypt their conversations the privacy of our citizens including the need to employ voice or data encryption for business purposes except from the government the need of companies to manufacture and export high technology products huh later it says that the new technology will be export restricted since encryption technology will play an increasingly important role in that infrastructure the federal government must act quickly to develop consistent comprehensive policies regarding its use the administration is committed to policies that protect all americans right to privacy while also protecting them from those who break the law in short the new technology can protect the law abiding citizen privacy from the casual snooper it cannot protect him from the government if it decides to misuse its ability to decrypt the conversations protect him from the criminals who succeed to break the new encryption scheme or to steal the keys or to bribe the people who handle them etc prevent the criminals from using secure encryption for communication does this approach expand the authority of government agencies to listen in on phone conversations no clipper chip technology provides law enforcement with no new authorities to access the content of the private conversations of americans correct however it does not provide them that much privacy as it claims who will run the key escrow data banks the two key escrow data banks will be run by two independent entities at this point the department of justice and the administration have yet to determine which agencies will oversee the key escrow data banks two candidates the nsa and the mafia how strong is the security in the device how can be sure how strong the security is this system is more secure than many other voice encryption systems readily available today that is trust us while the algorithm will remain classified to protect the security of the key escrow security through obscurity system we are willing to invite an independent panel of cryptography experts to evaluate the algorithm to assure all potential users that there are no unrecognized vulnerabilities if it not entirely open to public examination it cannot be trusted besides who can prove that the devices used for examination and the ones built into your phones will be the same whose decision was it to propose this product the national security council the justice department the the nsa and the fbi who was consulted the congress industry we have on going discussions with congress and industry on encryption issues and expect those discussions to intensify as we carry out our review of encryption policy we have briefed members of congress and industry leaders on the decisions related to this initiative why did they forget the academia will the government provide the hardware to manufacturers the government designed and developed the key access encryption microcircuits but it is not providing the microcircuits to product manufacturers product manufacturers can acquire the microcircuits from the chip manufacturer that produces them doesn this smell to monopolism who provides the clipper chip mykotronx programs it at their facility in torrance california and will sell the chip to encryption device manufacturers the programming function could be licensed to other vendors in the future like the mafia if the administration were unable to find technological solution like the one proposed would the administration be willing to use legal remedies to restrict access to more powerful encryption devices this is the main question why was it buried at the end this is fundamental policy question which will be considered during the broad policy review the key escrow we ll see mechanism will provide americans with an encryption product that is more secure more convenient and less expensive than others readily available today but it is just one trust us the administration is not saying since encryption threatens the public safety and effective law enforcement we will prohibit it outright as some countries have in short if we decide to outlaw strong crypto we ll tell you effectively done nor is the saying that every american as matter of right is entitled to an unbreakable commercial encryption product there is since the us government seems to consider strong crypto as munitions and since the us constitutions guarantees the right to every american to bear arms why is not every american entitled as matter of right to an unbreakable commercial encryption product it indicates that we understand the importance of encryption technology in telecommunications and computing and are committed to working with industry and public interest groups to find innovative ways to protect americans privacy help businesses to compete and ensure that law enforcement agencies have the tools they need to fight crime and terrorism bullshit the proposed technology provides false sense of security encryption devices with built in capabilities for breaking the encryption does not prevent the criminals to use strong crypto and is step to outlaw strong crypto will the devices be exportable will other devices that use the government hardware voice encryption devices are subject to export control requirements case by case review for each export is required to ensure appropriate use of these devices the who was the optimist who believed that the new administration will leave the export controls on strong crypto devices ok not american it not my business but just couldn resist to comment the whole plot looks so totalitaristic it up to you americans to fight for your rights regards vesselin now is the time for david sternlight to pop up and claim that the new system is great vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center university of hamburg tel fax fachbereich informatik agn pgp public key available on request vogt koelln strasse rm mail bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de hamburg germany xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com elroy jpl nasa gov nntp server caltech edu hal from hal cco caltech edu hal finney newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee subject re text of white house announcement and as on clipper chip encryption date apr gmt organization california institute of technology pasadena lines distribution na message id qmugcinnpu9 gap caltech edu references c5l17v gh5 dove nist gov nntp posting host alumni caltech edu the key question is whether non clipper encryption will be made illegal the administration is not saying since encryption threatens the public safety and effective law enforcement we will prohibit it outright as some countries have effectively done nor is the saying that every american as matter of right is entitled to an unbreakable commercial encryption product there is false tension created in the assessment that this issue is an either or proposition rather both concerns can be and in fact are harmoniously balanced through reasoned balanced approach such as is proposed with the clipper chip and similar encryption techniques the clear middle ground implied by these statements is to say that americans have the right to clipper encryption but not to unbreakable encryption this implies that ultimately non clipper strong encryption must become illegal as an aside isn the language here jarring all this talk about harmonious balance when they re talking about taking away people right to communications privacy although the article emphasizes voice communication data and mail encryption is mentioned as well sophisticated encryption technology has been used for years to protect electronic funds transfer it is now being used to protect electronic mail and computer files the privacy of our citizens including the need to employ voice or data encryption for business purposes it looks like the worst nightmares raised by dorothy denning proposals are coming true if the government continues on this course imagine that we will see strong cryptography made illegal encryption programs for disk files and email as well as software to allow for encrypted voice communications will be distributed only through the underground people will have to learn how to hide the fact that they are protecting their privacy it shocking and frightening to see that this is actually happening here hal finney hal alumni caltech edu newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu spool mu edu uunet walter qualcom qualcomm com servo qualcomm com karn from karn servo qualcomm com phil karn subject the battle is joined message id apr16 qualcomm com sender news qualcomm com nntp posting host servo qualcomm com organization qualcomm inc date fri apr gmt lines it looks like dorothy denning wrong headed ideas have gotten to the administration even sooner than we feared it time to make sure they hear the other side of the story and hear it loudly phil forwarded message subject text of white house announcement and as on clipper chip encryption note this file will also be available via anonymous file transfer from csrc ncsl nist gov in directory pub nistnews and via the nist computer security bbs at the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april statement by the press secretary the president today announced new initiative that will bring the federal government together with industry in voluntary program to improve the security and privacy of telephone communications while meeting the legitimate needs of law enforcement the initiative will involve the creation of new products to accelerate the development and use of advanced and secure telecommunications networks and wireless communications links for too long there has been little or no dialogue between our private sector and the law enforcement community to resolve the tension between economic vitality and the real challenges of protecting americans rather than use technology to accommodate the sometimes competing interests of economic growth privacy and law enforcement previous policies have pitted government against industry and the rights of privacy against law enforcement sophisticated encryption technology has been used for years to protect electronic funds transfer it is now being used to protect electronic mail and computer files while encryption technology can help americans protect business secrets and the unauthorized release of personal information it also can be used by terrorists drug dealers and other criminals state of the art microcircuit called the clipper chip has been developed by government engineers the chip represents new approach to encryption technology it can be used in new relatively inexpensive encryption devices that can be attached to an ordinary telephone it scrambles telephone communications using an encryption algorithm that is more powerful than many in commercial use today this new technology will help companies protect proprietary information protect the privacy of personal phone conversations and prevent unauthorized release of data transmitted electronically at the same time this technology preserves the ability of federal state and local law enforcement agencies to intercept lawfully the phone conversations of criminals key escrow system will be established to ensure that the clipper chip is used to protect the privacy of law abiding americans each device containing the chip will have two unique keys numbers that will be needed by authorized government agencies to decode messages encoded by the device when the device is manufactured the two keys will be deposited separately in two key escrow data bases that will be established by the attorney general access to these keys will be limited to government officials with legal authorization to conduct wiretap the clipper chip technology provides law enforcement with no new authorities to access the content of the private conversations of americans to demonstrate the effectiveness of this new technology the attorney general will soon purchase several thousand of the new devices in addition respected experts from outside the government will be offered access to the confidential details of the algorithm to assess its capabilities and publicly report their findings the chip is an important step in addressing the problem of encryption dual edge sword encryption helps to protect the privacy of individuals and industry but it also can shield criminals and terrorists we need the clipper chip and other approaches that can both provide law abiding citizens with access to the encryption they need and prevent criminals from using it to hide their illegal activities in order to assess technology trends and explore new approaches like the key escrow system the president has directed government agencies to develop comprehensive policy on encryption that accommodates the privacy of our citizens including the need to employ voice or data encryption for business purposes the ability of authorized officials to access telephone calls and data under proper court or other legal order when necessary to protect our citizens the effective and timely use of the most modern technology to build the national information infrastructure needed to promote economic growth and the competitiveness of american industry in the global marketplace and the need of companies to manufacture and export high technology products the president has directed early and frequent consultations with affected industries the congress and groups that advocate the privacy rights of individuals as policy options are developed the administration is committed to working with the private sector to spur the development of national information infrastructure which will use new telecommunications and computer technologies to give americans unprecedented access to information this infrastructure of high speed networks information superhighways will transmit video images hdtv programming and huge data files as easily as today telephone system transmits voice since encryption technology will play an increasingly important role in that infrastructure the federal government must act quickly to develop consistent comprehensive policies regarding its use the administration is committed to policies that protect all americans right to privacy while also protecting them from those who break the law further information is provided in an accompanying fact sheet the provisions of the president directive to acquire the new encryption technology are also available for additional details call mat heyman national institute of standards and technology questions and answers about the clinton administration telecommunications initiative does this approach expand the authority of government agencies to listen in on phone conversations no clipper chip technology provides law enforcement with no new authorities to access the content of the private conversations of americans suppose law enforcement agency is conducting wiretap on drug smuggling ring and intercepts conversation encrypted using the device what would they have to do to decipher the message they would have to obtain legal authorization normally court order to do the wiretap in the first place they would then present documentation of this authorization to the two entities responsible for safeguarding the keys and obtain the keys for the device being used by the drug smugglers the key is split into two parts which are stored separately in order to ensure the security of the key escrow system who will run the key escrow data banks the two key escrow data banks will be run by two independent entities at this point the department of justice and the administration have yet to determine which agencies will oversee the key escrow data banks how strong is the security in the device how can be sure how strong the security is this system is more secure than many other voice encryption systems readily available today while the algorithm will remain classified to protect the security of the key escrow system we are willing to invite an independent panel of cryptography experts to evaluate the algorithm to assure all potential users that there are no unrecognized vulnerabilities whose decision was it to propose this product the national security council the justice department the commerce department and other key agencies were involved in this decision this approach has been endorsed by the president the vice president and appropriate cabinet officials who was consulted the congress industry we have on going discussions with congress and industry on encryption issues and expect those discussions to intensify as we carry out our review of encryption policy we have briefed members of congress and industry leaders on the decisions related to this initiative will the government provide the hardware to manufacturers the government designed and developed the key access encryption microcircuits but it is not providing the microcircuits to product manufacturers product manufacturers can acquire the microcircuits from the chip manufacturer that produces them who provides the clipper chip mykotronx programs it at their facility in torrance california and will sell the chip to encryption device manufacturers the programming function could be licensed to other vendors in the future how do buy one of these encryption devices we expect several manufacturers to consider incorporating the clipper chip into their devices if the administration were unable to find technological solution like the one proposed would the administration be willing to use legal remedies to restrict access to more powerful encryption devices this is fundamental policy question which will be considered during the broad policy review the key escrow mechanism will provide americans with an encryption product that is more secure more convenient and less expensive than others readily available today but it is just one piece of what must be the comprehensive approach to encryption technology which the administration is developing the administration is not saying since encryption threatens the public safety and effective law enforcement we will prohibit it outright as some countries have effectively done nor is the saying that every american as matter of right is entitled to an unbreakable commercial encryption product there is false tension created in the assessment that this issue is an either or proposition rather both concerns can be and in fact are harmoniously balanced through reasoned balanced approach such as is proposed with the clipper chip and similar encryption techniques what does this decision indicate about how the clinton administration policy toward encryption will differ from that of the bush administration it indicates that we understand the importance of encryption technology in telecommunications and computing and are committed to working with industry and public interest groups to find innovative ways to protect americans privacy help businesses to compete and ensure that law enforcement agencies have the tools they need to fight crime and terrorism will the devices be exportable will other devices that use the government hardware voice encryption devices are subject to export control requirements case by case review for each export is required to ensure appropriate use of these devices the same is true for other encryption devices one of the attractions of this technology is the protection it can give to companies operating at home and abroad with this in mind we expect export licenses will be granted on case by case basis for companies seeking to use these devices to secure their own communications abroad we plan to review the possibility of permitting wider exportability of these products xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt security pgp sci crypt comp sys mac apps newsgroups alt security pgp sci crypt comp sys mac apps path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu swrinde elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl netcomsv netcom com grady from grady netcom com ef221 subject re macpgp source problems message id gradyc5le6y e2h netcom com organization capriccioso newsreader tin version pl6 references gradyc5la4y dl netcom com date fri apr gmt lines yes my error you will need the diff between the standard console and console supplied with symantec think and the specially modified one that works with macpgp added the two diffs to the end of the signature file macpgp2 srcsignature in pub grady of netcom com please download via anonymous ftp and using sed oops cutting and pasting fix em up will one of you mac geniuses please port this to macapp or appmaker or grady grady netcom com ef221 e2 ad d3 d1 c6 f3 fc ac f7 newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net sol ctr columbia edu eff harding eff org djw from danny weitzner djw eff org subject re inventing crypto policy an eff statement message id apr16 eff org xxmessage id a7f49385ac03ac80 harding eff org xxdate fri apr gmt sender usenet eff org nntp news poster nntp posting host harding eff org organization electronic frontier foundation useragent nuntius v1 d17 date fri apr gmt lines april initial eff analysis of clinton privacy and security proposal the clinton administration today made major announcement on cryptography policy which will effect the privacy and security of millions of americans the first part of the plan is to begin comprehensive inquiry into major communications privacy issues such as export controls which have effectively denied most people easy access to robust encryption and law enforcement issues posed by new technology however eff is very concerned that the administration has already reached conclusion on one critical part of the inquiry before any public comment or discussion has been allowed apparently the administration is going to use its leverage to get all telephone equipment vendors to adopt voice encryption standard developed by the national security agency the so called clipper chip is an bit split key escrowed encryption scheme which will be built into chips manufactured by military contractor two separate escrow agents would store users keys and be required to turn them over law enforcement upon presentation of valid warrant the encryption scheme used is to be classified but the chips will be available to any manufacturer for incorporation into its communications products this proposal raises number of serious concerns first the administration has adopted solution before conducting an inquiry the nsa developed clipper chip may not be the most secure product other vendors or developers may have better schemes furthermore we should not rely on the government as the sole source for the clipper or any other chips rather independent chip manufacturers should be able to produce chipsets based on open standards second an algorithm cannot be trusted unless it can be tested yet the administration proposes to keep the chip algorithm classified eff believes that any standard adopted ought to be public and open the public will only have confidence in the security of standard that is open to independent expert scrutiny third while the use of the use of split key dual escrowed system may prove to be reasonable balance between privacy and law enforcement needs the details of this scheme must be explored publicly before it is adopted what will give people confidence in the safety of their keys does disclosure of keys to third party waive an individual fifth amendment rights in subsequent criminal inquiries these are but few of the many questions the administrations proposal raised but fails to answer in sum the administration has shown great sensitivity to the importance of these issues by planning comprehensive inquiry into digital privacy and security however the clipper chip solution ought to be considered as part of the inquiry and not be adopted before the discussion even begins details of the proposal escrow the bit key will be divided between two escrow agents each of whom hold bits of each key the manufacturer of the communications device would be required to register all keys with the two independent escrow agents key is tied to the device however not the person using it upon presentation of valid court order the two escrow agents would have to turn the key parts over to law enforcement agents according to the presidential directive just issued the attorney general will be asked to identify appropriate escrow agents some in the administration have suggested that one non law enforcement federal agency perhaps the federal reserve and one non governmental organization could be chosen but there is no agreement on the identity of the agents yet classified algorithm and the possibility of back doors the administration claims that there are no back doors means by which the government or others could break the code without securing keys from the escrow agents and that the president will be told there are no back doors to this classified algorithm in order to prove this administration sources are interested in arranging for an all star crypto cracker team to come in under security arrangement and examine the algorithm for trap doors the results of the investigation would then be made public the clipper chipset was designed and is being produced and sole source secret contract between the national security agency and two private firms vlsi and mycotronx nsa work on this plan has been underway for about four years the manufacturing contract was let months ago government as market driver in order to get market moving and to show that the government believes in the security of this system the feds will be the first big customers for this product users will include the fbi secret service vp al gore and maybe even the president at today commerce department press briefing number of people asked this question though why would any private organization or individual adopt classified standard that had no independent guaranty of security or freedom from trap doors comprehensive policy inquiry the administration has also announced that it is about to commence an inquiry into all policy issues related to privacy protection encryption and law enforcement the items to be considered include export controls on encryption technology and the fbi digital telephony proposal it appears that the this inquiry will be conducted by the national security council unfortunately however the presidential directive describing the inquiry is classified some public involvement in the process has been promised but they terms have yet to be specified from more information contact jerry berman executive director jberman eff org daniel weitzner senior staff counsel djw eff org full text of the press releases and fact sheets issued by the administration will be available on eff ftp site danny weitzner senior staff counsel eff xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl netcomsv netcom com grady from grady netcom com ef221 subject re text of white house announcement and as on clipper chip encryption message id gradyc5leyk g2w netcom com organization capriccioso newsreader tin version pl6 references qmugcinnpu9 gap caltech edu distribution na date fri apr gmt lines am eager to hear the legal theory behind restricting exchange of cryptographic data and encrypted messages given the first admendment the theory behind regulating the personal encryption of one personal thoughts and feelings seems even less tenable perhaps if we make treaty with say iceland to restrict crypto paraphernalia can good end run around the constitution happen treaties as someone pointed out has the force of any other law of the land like the bill of rights amendment congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof or abridging the freedom of speech or of the press or the right of the people peaceably to assemble and to petition the government for redress of grievances amendment well regulated militia being necessary to the security of free state the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed amendment no soldier shall in time of peace be quartered in any house without the consent of the owner nor in time of war but in manner to be prescribed by law amendment the right of the people to be secure in their persons houses papers and effects against unreasonable searches and seizures shall not be violated and no warrants shall issue but upon probable cause supported by oath or affirmation and particularly describing the place to be searched and the persons or things to be seized amendment no person shall be held to answer for capital or otherwise infamous crime unless on presentment or indictment of grand jury except in cases arising in the land or naval forces or in the militia when in actual service in time of war or public danger nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be witness against himself nor be deprived of life liberty or property without due process of law nor shall private property be taken for public use without just compensation well at least for few minutes we had some privacy grady netcom com ef221 e2 ad d3 d1 c6 f3 fc ac f7 xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rec puzzles sci crypt sci math newsgroups rec puzzles sci crypt sci math path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net agate ames biersch jru from jru comtech com jimmy upton subject rubick shortest path algorithm status message id apr16 comtech com followup to rec puzzles organization comtech labs inc date fri apr gmt lines what is the expected run time factor of on dx using the best known algorithm for finding the shortest path solution for rubicks cube from randomly chosen position have read the faq and followed the recent discussion on rubicks cube but don believe this question has been answered notice that am specifically looking for an algorithm that finds the shortest path not just any solution it seems to me that the underlying assumption is that such program would need to do brute force search though positions that seems an unreasonably pessimistic assumption to me and want to know if someone has significantly improved on that have some ideas of my own on how to approach this problem but before spend to much time developing them wanted to know if someone else has already done the work administrivia have posted this to three groups and attempted to set the followup to rec puzzles which seems to me to be the place to continue this discussion will cross post summary when and if it becomes appropriate email replies gladly accepted jimmy jru comtech com xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp org eff talk misc test sci crypt alt flame newsgroups comp org eff talk misc test sci crypt alt flame path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech howland reston ans net noc near net uunet portal natasha bob from bob natasha portal com bob cain subject re pgp pem and rfc was cryptography patents message id apr16 natasha portal com organization oce graphics usa newsreader tin version pl7 references apr16 umr edu date fri apr gmt lines charles kincy ckincy cs umr edu wrote in article apr16 natasha portal com bob natasha portal com bob cain writes hope my cynicism is misplaced here go ahead not afraid to be wrong every once in while but have an uneasy feeling that am right it is and you are wrong yet you emotionally state bunch of crap as fact with tiny disclaimer at the end check your facts first and grow up why is there such strong correlation between interest in cryptography and immaturity wonder oh see flame someone tell them that they are immature tell them they are wrong and then don offer any proof for your assertions you really are putz put up or shut up will provide any proof you wish in private name it dickhead putz cain xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt privacy sci crypt alt security comp security misc comp org eff talk newsgroups alt privacy sci crypt alt security comp security misc comp org eff talk path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net uunet dove csrc ncsl nist gov clipper from clipper csrc ncsl nist gov clipper chip announcement subject white house public encryption management fact sheet message id c5lgaz dove nist gov sender news dove nist gov organization national institute of standards technology distribution na date fri apr gmt lines note the following was released by the white house today in conjunction with the announcement of the clipper chip encryption technology fact sheet public encryption management the president has approved directive on public encryption management the directive provides for the following advanced telecommunications and commercially available encryption are part of wave of new computer and communications technology encryption products scramble information to protect the privacy of communications and data by preventing unauthorized access advanced telecommunications systems use digital technology to rapidly and precisely handle high volume of communications these advanced telecommunications systems are integral to the infrastructure needed to ensure economic competitiveness in the information age despite its benefits new communications technology can also frustrate lawful government electronic surveillance sophisticated encryption can have this effect in the united states when exported abroad it can be used to thwart foreign intelligence activities critical to our national interests in the past it has been possible to preserve government capability to conduct electronic surveillance in furtherance of legitimate law enforcement and national security interests while at the same time protecting the privacy and civil liberties of all citizens as encryption technology improves doing so will require new innovative approaches in the area of communications encryption the government has developed microcircuit that not only provides privacy through encryption that is substantially more robust than the current government standard but also permits escrowing of the keys needed to unlock the encryption the system for the escrowing of keys will allow the government to gain access to encrypted information only with appropriate legal authorization to assist law enforcement and other government agencies to collect and decrypt under legal authority electronically transmitted information hereby direct the following action to be taken installation of government developed microcircuits the attorney general of the united states or her representative shall request manufacturers of communications hardware which incorporates encryption to install the government developed key escrow microcircuits in their products the fact of law enforcement access to the escrowed keys will not be concealed from the american public all appropriate steps shall be taken to ensure that any existing or future versions of the key escrow microcircuit are made widely available to communications hardware manufacturers consistent with the need to ensure the security of the key escrow system in making this decision do not intend to prevent the private sector from developing or the government from approving other microcircuits or algorithms that are equally effective in assuring both privacy and secure key escrow system key escrow the attorney general shall make all arrangements with appropriate entities to hold the keys for the key escrow microcircuits installed in communications equipment in each case the key holder must agree to strict security procedures to prevent unauthorized release of the keys the keys shall be released only to government agencies that have established their authority to acquire the content of those communications that have been encrypted by devices containing the microcircuits the attorney general shall review for legal sufficiency the procedures by which an agency establishes its authority to acquire the content of such communications procurement and use of encryption devices the secretary of commerce in consultation with other appropriate agencies shall initiate process to write standards to facilitate the procurement and use of encryption devices fitted with key escrow microcircuits in federal communications systems that process sensitive but unclassified information expect this process to proceed on schedule that will permit promulgation of final standard within six months of this directive the attorney general will procure and utilize encryption devices to the extent needed to preserve the government ability to conduct lawful electronic surveillance and to fulfill the need for secure law enforcement communications further the attorney general shall utilize funds from the department of justice asset forfeiture super surplus fund to effect this purchase newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu moe ksu ksu edu ux1 cso uiuc edu cs uiuc edu kadie from kadie cs uiuc edu carl kadie subject eff initial eff analysis of clinton privacy and security proposal message id c5lh1y lsm cs uiuc edu followup to sci crypt comp org eff talk organization university of illinois dept of comp sci urbana il date fri apr gmt lines an article from comp org eff news effector online carl april initial eff analysis of clinton privacy and security proposal the clinton administration today made major announcement on cryptography policy which will effect the privacy and security of millions of americans the first part of the plan is to begin comprehensive inquiry into major communications privacy issues such as export controls which have effectively denied most people easy access to robust encryption as well as law enforcement issues posed by new technology however eff is very concerned that the administration has already reached conclusion on one critical part of the inquiry before any public comment or discussion has been allowed apparently the administration is going to use its leverage to get all telephone equipment vendors to adopt voice encryption standard developed by the national security agency the so called clipper chip is an bit split key escrowed encryption scheme which will be built into chips manufactured by military contractor two separate escrow agents would store users keys and be required to turn them over law enforcement upon presentation of valid warrant the encryption scheme used is to be classified but they chips will be available to any manufacturer for incorporation into their communications products this proposal raises number of serious concerns first the administration appears to be adopting solution before conducting an inquiry the nsa developed clipper chip may not be the most secure product other vendors or developers may have better schemes furthermore we should not rely on the government as the sole source for clipper or any other chips rather independent chip manufacturers should be able to produce chipsets based on open standards second an algorithm can not be trusted unless it can be tested yet the administration proposes to keep the chip algorithm classified eff believes that any standard adopted ought to be public and open the public will only have confidence in the security of standard that is open to independent expert scrutiny third while the use of the split key dual escrowed system may prove to be reasonable balance between privacy and law enforcement needs the details of this scheme must be explored publicly before it is adopted what will give people confidence in the safety of their keys does disclosure of keys to third party waive individual fifth amendment rights in subsequent criminal inquiries in sum the administration has shown great sensitivity to the importance of these issues by planning comprehensive inquiry into digital privacy and security however the clipper chip solution ought to be considered as part of the inquiry not be adopted before the discussion even begins details of the proposal escrow the bit key will be divided between two escrow agents each of whom hold bits of each key upon presentation of valid warrant the two escrow agents would have to turn the key parts over to law enforcement agents most likely the attorney general will be asked to identify appropriate escrow agents some in the administration have suggested one non law enforcement federal agency perhaps the federal reserve and one non governmental organization but there is no agreement on the identity of the agents yet key registration would be done by the manufacturer of the communications device key is tied to the device not to the person using it classified algorithm and the possibility of back doors the administration claims that there are no back door means by which the government or others could break the code without securing keys from the escrow agents and that the president will be told there are no back doors to this classified algorithm in order to prove this administration sources are interested in arranging for an all star crypto cracker team to come in under security arrangement and examine the algorithm for trap doors the results of the investigation would then be made public government as market driver in order to get market moving and to show that the government believes in the security of this system the feds will be the first big customers for this product users will include the fbi secret service vp al gore and maybe even the president from more information contact jerry berman executive director daniel weitzner senior staff counsel carl kadie do not represent any organization this is just me kadie cs uiuc edu xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp org eff talk sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net transfer stratus com ellisun sw stratus com cme from cme ellisun sw stratus com carl ellison newsgroups comp org eff talk sci crypt subject re clipper crypto date apr gmt organization stratus computer software engineering lines distribution inet message id qn7en ph3 transfer stratus com references apr16 eff org nntp posting host ellisun sw stratus com keywords crypto eff sent response to the white house at mcimail com white house and received nice automatic reply from micmail noting in passing that if had included snail address would get reply in due course for those who care my reply was yes let protect the voice network privately developed crypto has always been available and always will be so let think about how to do law enforcement given that fact not about how to hope to legislate against it my needs for crypto as system designer are not met by the clipper chip want freely to export uses of algorithms like des rsa which are already freely available in the destination country disclaimer all opinions expressed are my own of course carl ellison cme sw stratus com stratus computer inc m3 bkw tel fairbanks boulevard marlborough ma fax newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com emory swrinde elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl netcomsv netcom com strnlght from strnlght netcom com david sternlight subject re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow message id strnlghtc5lgfi jqa netcom com keywords encryption wiretap clipper key escrow mykotronx organization dsi uscrpac references rand org rand org date fri apr gmt lines though some may argue about the nose of the camel it worth noting that the government proposal is limited to scrambled telephony if it is only used for that purpose and does not extend to electronic mail or file encryption then it is an improvement over the current mass produced standard civilian technology which with few exceptions is limited to easy to break inverters note that the big issue for the feds is the continued ability to wiretap before we go off the deep end with long discusions about secure crypto for mail and files let focus on this one question that was not asked in the release is whether this proposal is limited to telephony or if the government intends to expand it though share many of the concerns expressed by some find the proposal less threatening than many others since right now most americans have no secure telephony and any jerk with pair of clip leads and goat can eavesdrop this would also plug up the security hole in cellular and cordless phones reading between the lines infer that the system is highly secure without access to the keys this would meet the needs of businesses confronted by rich and powerful adversaries including french and japanese security services and rich japanese companies it allows the nsa to make available some of its better stuff while protecting law enforcement needs most legitimate corporations trust the nsa and would be delighted to have high security system certified by them even at the price of depositing keys in escrow see no difficulty in creating reliable escrow corporations entrust their secrets to attorneys every day of the week and that system has worked pretty well from my point of view this is fair starting point there are concerns that need to be addressed including the reliability of the escrows but in return we get access to high security crypto many have suggested that des and other systems may be breakable by the nsa and hence others similarly skilled and endowed there is at least good possibility which should be checked that the proposed system is not so breakable it doesn have to be nor does it have to have trapdoors if the government can get the keys pursuant to legitimate court order thus they can protect legitimate communications against economic adversaries while still being able to eavesdrop on crooks pursuant to court order in discussing this let try to avoid the nastiness personal attacks and noise of some previous threads this is substantive and technical issue and personal remarks have no place in such discussion david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu linac uwm edu ux1 cso uiuc edu moe ksu ksu edu hobbes physics uiowa edu news uiowa edu news weeg uiowa edu lbrintle from lbrintle news weeg uiowa edu lee brintle subject re re inventing crypto policy an eff statement message id apr16 news weeg uiowa edu summary bit key half is way too small organization project panda inc references apr16 eff org date fri apr gmt lines in article apr16 eff org danny weitzner djw eff org writes the bit key will be divided between two escrow agents each of whom hold bits of each key presumably the key split is so that no one group controls the privacy of the key and that it would be infeasible to illicitly gain access from both agents however if one agent wishes to break the crypto without the cooperation of the other agent bit key is not going to stand in the way of brute force attack if an agency for example the nsa were to hold one of the two key halves then don imagine they really need the other half of the key to start listening in or was that the point grin this is not to imply at all that like the idea of the rest of the system lee brintle and so leave you with this final word director project panda twang path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu linac uwm edu cs utexas edu sdd hp com saimiri primate wisc edu eng ufl edu usenet ufl edu gatech howland reston ans net agate apple kaleida com jfenton kaleida com fenton from jay fenton fenton kaleida com newsgroups sci crypt subject how to detect use of an illegal cipher date apr gmt organization kaleida labs inc lines distribution world message id qn74ninni38 golden kaleida com references c5l17v gh5 dove nist gov bontchev fbihh qmugcinnpu9 gap caltech edu nntp posting host jfenton kaleida com useragent nuntius v1 d12 xxmessage id a7f46f47ea010b1c jfenton kaleida com xxdate fri apr gmt how can the government tell which encryption method one is using without being able to decode the traffic in order to accuse me of using an unauthorized strong encryption technique they would have to take both keys out of escrow run them against my ciphertext and draw blank can imagine the ciphertext exhibiting certain statistical characteristics that might give clue as to the encryption technique used but not enough to give handle for diferential cryptoanalysis however superencipherment or some other scheme that shapes the percieved properties of my ciphertext could thwart this newsgroups sci crypt from mike avon demon co uk mike path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu linac uwm edu caen uunet pipex demon avon demon co uk mike subject re another data hiding scheme distribution world references apr13 colorado edu organization boring reply to mike avon demon co uk mailer simple news ka9q dis lines date fri apr message id snz avon demon co uk sender usenet demon co uk in article apr13 colorado edu bear tigger cs colorado edu writes since the price of floppies were still high until the last few years if you store old data with old file times in the public filesystem the casual observer may miss the hd especially if you accidently cover it with something bear giles bear cs colorado edu fsl noaa gov it has been done already in the uk the atari st box was shipped with disks in the first few years and then later disks in order to make life less complicated many freebie disks on mags were double formatted like this side of the disk had on it and could be read by any st it also had flip side program this would swap the sides around so that side became side mike mike avon demon co uk xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu linac uwm edu cs utexas edu wupost howland reston ans net agate headwall stanford edu nntp stanford edu arc from arc leland stanford edu andrew richard conway subject re text of white house announcement and as on clipper chip encryption message id apr16 leland stanford edu sender news leland stanford edu mr news organization dsg stanford university ca usa references c5l17v gh5 dove nist gov qmugcinnpu9 gap caltech edu date fri apr gmt lines in article qmugcinnpu9 gap caltech edu hal cco caltech edu hal finney writes the key question is whether non clipper encryption will be made illegal the administration is not saying since encryption threatens the public safety and effective law enforcement we will prohibit it outright as some countries have effectively done nor is the saying that every does anyone know what countries are these american as matter of right is entitled to an unbreakable commercial encryption product there is false tension created in the assessment that this issue is an either or proposition rather both concerns can be and in fact are harmoniously balanced through reasoned balanced approach such as is proposed with the clipper chip and similar encryption techniques the clear middle ground implied by these statements is to say that americans have the right to clipper encryption but not to unbreakable encryption this implies that ultimately non clipper strong encryption must become illegal with the following logical consequences using any code designed to obscure informatio which is not easily breakable will be illegal including using code words such as project p5 ii speaking language other than english iii ever refering implicitly to events not known to everyone eg hi john how was last night for all the listener knows this may be code for did you pick up the drugs ok last night of be code for ok we blow up the pentagon at midnight iv mentioning anything that could not be perfectly understood by an average person with no education words with more than one syllable vi speaking with heavy accent that could bemisunderstood by people not used to it vii books with an inner meaning such as animal farm as an aside isn the language here jarring all this talk about harmonious balance when they re talking about taking away people right to communications privacy yes it looks like the worst nightmares raised by dorothy denning proposals are coming true if the government continues on this course imagine that we will see strong cryptography made illegal encryption programs for disk files and email as well as software to allow for encrypted voice communications will be distributed only through the underground people will have to learn how to hide the fact that they are protecting their privacy have wonderful encrypter you can borrow that converts message eg meet me at to bomb the white house bring some dynamite to an apparently relatively innoculous message this message here is an example of the output for the above message it shocking and frightening to see that this is actually happening here it is shockiong that it could happen anywhere it is shocking that it could happen in country that has the arrogance to call itself free what you can do write to your congress person in plain text write to your congress person in encrypted text decrypter optional send some random keystroked to your congressperson send some random keystrokes accross the us boundaries and keep the spooks busy trying to decode it write your own encryption algorithms don buy clipper products can work out why the us government doesn want to sell them overseas after all they are rather easy for us interests to decode so make perfect tool for industrial military espionage lulling anyone stupid enough to buy it into false sense of security you will notice that there is no mention anywhere about safety for non americans disclaimer my opinions are mine alone and do not represent anyone elses have nothing that particularly want to hide at the moment though consider the right to be able to use whatever method of coding data like to be high on my list of priorities andrew conway arc leland stanford edu phone usa xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt privacy comp org eff talk alt security alt dcom telecom newsgroups sci crypt alt privacy comp org eff talk alt security alt dcom telecom path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu linac uwm edu wupost howland reston ans net gatech emory sol ctr columbia edu eff coolidge eff org banisar from dave banisar banisar washofc cpsr org subject cpsr statement on white house crypto plan message id apr16 eff org xxmessage id a7f4a1214f01ac81 coolidge eff org xxdate fri apr gmt sender usenet eff org nntp news poster nntp posting host coolidge eff org organization cpsr civil liberties and computing project useragent nuntius v1 d17 date fri apr gmt lines april washington dc computer professionals call for public debate on new government encryption initiative computer professionals for social responsibility cpsr today called for the public disclosure of technical data underlying the government newly announced public encryption management initiative the new cryptography scheme was announced today by the white house and the national institute for standards and technology nist which will implement the technical specifications of the plan nist spokesman acknowledged that the national security agency nsa the super secret military intelligence agency had actually developed the encryption technology around which the new initiative is built according to nist the technical specifications and the presidential directive establishing the plan are classified to open the initiative to public review and debate cpsr today filed series of freedom of information act foia requests with key agencies including nsa nist the national security council and the fbi for information relating to the encryption plan the cpsr requests are in keeping with the spirit of the computer security act which congress passed in in order to open the development of non military computer security standards to public scrutiny and to limit nsa role in the creation of such standards cpsr previously has questioned the role of nsa in developing the so called digital signature standard dss communications authentication technology that nist proposed for government wide use in after cpsr sued nist in foia lawsuit last year the civilian agency disclosed for the first time that nsa had in fact developed that security standard nsa is due to file papers in federal court next week justifying the classification of records concerning its creation of the dss david sobel cpsr legal counsel called the administration apparent commitment to the privacy of electronic communications as reflected in today official statement step in the right direction but he questioned the propriety of nsa role in the process and the apparent secrecy that has thus far shielded the development process from public scrutiny at time when we are moving towards the development of new information infrastructure it is vital that standards designed to protect personal privacy be established openly and with full public participation it is not appropriate for nsa an agency with long tradition of secrecy and opposition to effective civilian cryptography to play leading role in the development process cpsr is national public interest alliance of computer industry professionals dedicated to examining the impact of technology on society cpsr has chapters in the and maintains offices in palo alto california cambridge massachusetts and washington dc for additional information on cpsr call or mail cpsr csli stanford edu xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt privacy comp org eff talk alt security alt dcom telecom newsgroups sci crypt alt privacy comp org eff talk alt security alt dcom telecom path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu linac uwm edu wupost howland reston ans net europa eng gtefsd com emory sol ctr columbia edu eff coolidge eff org banisar from dave banisar banisar washofc cpsr org subject cpsr statement on white house crypto plan message id apr16 eff org xxmessage id a7f4a1214f01ac81 coolidge eff org xxdate fri apr gmt sender usenet eff org nntp news poster nntp posting host coolidge eff org organization cpsr civil liberties and computing project useragent nuntius v1 d17 date fri apr gmt lines april washington dc computer professionals call for public debate on new government encryption initiative computer professionals for social responsibility cpsr today called for the public disclosure of technical data underlying the government newly announced public encryption management initiative the new cryptography scheme was announced today by the white house and the national institute for standards and technology nist which will implement the technical specifications of the plan nist spokesman acknowledged that the national security agency nsa the super secret military intelligence agency had actually developed the encryption technology around which the new initiative is built according to nist the technical specifications and the presidential directive establishing the plan are classified to open the initiative to public review and debate cpsr today filed series of freedom of information act foia requests with key agencies including nsa nist the national security council and the fbi for information relating to the encryption plan the cpsr requests are in keeping with the spirit of the computer security act which congress passed in in order to open the development of non military computer security standards to public scrutiny and to limit nsa role in the creation of such standards cpsr previously has questioned the role of nsa in developing the so called digital signature standard dss communications authentication technology that nist proposed for government wide use in after cpsr sued nist in foia lawsuit last year the civilian agency disclosed for the first time that nsa had in fact developed that security standard nsa is due to file papers in federal court next week justifying the classification of records concerning its creation of the dss david sobel cpsr legal counsel called the administration apparent commitment to the privacy of electronic communications as reflected in today official statement step in the right direction but he questioned the propriety of nsa role in the process and the apparent secrecy that has thus far shielded the development process from public scrutiny at time when we are moving towards the development of new information infrastructure it is vital that standards designed to protect personal privacy be established openly and with full public participation it is not appropriate for nsa an agency with long tradition of secrecy and opposition to effective civilian cryptography to play leading role in the development process cpsr is national public interest alliance of computer industry professionals dedicated to examining the impact of technology on society cpsr has chapters in the and maintains offices in palo alto california cambridge massachusetts and washington dc for additional information on cpsr call or mail cpsr csli stanford edu xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp org eff talk news admin policy comp admin policy sci crypt newsgroups comp org eff talk news admin policy comp admin policy sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu linac uwm edu cs utexas edu uunet news cs jhu edu beanworld eifrig from eifrig beanworld cs jhu edu jonathan eifrig subject re pgp pem and rfc was cryptography patents message id c5lj0t k52 blaze cs jhu edu sender news blaze cs jhu edu usenet news system organization the johns hopkins university cs department references apr10 umr edu apr16 natasha portal com date fri apr gmt lines in article apr16 natasha portal com bob natasha portal com bob cain writes check your facts first and grow up why is there such strong correlation between interest in cryptography and immaturity wonder hmmm check your facts good advice let check mr cain facts bit shall we charles kincy ckincy cs umr edu wrote some limitation let me guess don use the code in any way pkp or rsa doesn like such as providing secure communications for the average citizen that was exactly its purpose if you know anything about it there is nothing at all preventing the average citizen using it only selling it fact it is unlawful to distribute code implementing rsa without license to do so from pkp whether or not one is charging for it furthermore any use of rsa other than for research purposes allowed under us patent law is similarly unlawful therefore the average citizen cannot use rsa to encrypt message traffic in the us without license from pkp there is no licensed freely available product in the us that uses rsa encryption other than rsaref and hence ripem at least as far as am aware if you know of another please post it here all have to say is yeah right if you re willing to pay them mucho big bucks and or use the routines they tell you to do doesn sound very reasonable to me all have to say is this is full of shit have negotiated license and the bucks are incredibly reasonable with an upfront charge on sliding scale depending on your capitalization if you are startup and can afford it you can afford to start up in the first place why do people insist on making unequivocal statements about that which they know nothing fact the last contact had with rsa data security inc was with some guy trying to sell me license unsolicited might add for tipem cost plus percent royalties suppose it is matter of opinion as to whether or not these terms count as mucho bucks or incredibly reasonable either way however this definitely falls into the routines they tell you to use but don guess pkp and rsa are interested in big bucks maybe they have some other agenda secure communications only for government agents perhaps have you considered treatment for paranoia the government is the single biggest thorn in rsa side fact there are no restrictions yet on the use of cryptography under us law although this is beginning to look like it will change the only impediments to widespread use of rsa cryptography in the us are pkp patents mr cain please shut up until you get your facts straight better than the whole world be destroyed and crumble to dust than free man deny one of his desires benito mussolini italian anarchist and poet jack eifrig eifrig cs jhu edu the johns hopkins university dept path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu linac uwm edu cs utexas edu uunet not for mail from avg rodan uu net vadim antonov newsgroups sci crypt subject re re inventing crypto policy an eff statement date apr organization uunet technologies inc falls church va lines message id qna0tinnf5p rodan uu net references apr16 eff org apr16 news weeg uiowa edu nntp posting host rodan uu net in article apr16 eff org danny weitzner djw eff org writes the bit key will be divided between two escrow agents each of whom hold bits of each key somehow started to doubt technical competence of the people who designed the system why on the earth split the bit key in bit parts to keep them in escrow separately having bit and large volumes of data voice links produce it should be relatively easy to break it when they simply could keep bit sequences in independent places and then xor all the partial keys to get the actual key sequences should obviously be selected randomly and nth is the actual key xor ed with the random sequences or is it conspiracy vadim newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu linac uwm edu cs utexas edu sdd hp com elroy jpl nasa gov swrinde gatech howland reston ans net noc near net uunet walter qualcom qualcomm com servo qualcomm com karn from karn servo qualcomm com phil karn subject re keeping your mouth shut was hard drive security message id apr16 qualcomm com sender news qualcomm com nntp posting host servo qualcomm com reply to karn chicago qualcomm com organization qualcomm inc references c4ukkz g6 telebit com bu edu apr13 yuma acns colostate edu apr13 cadkey com c5k1ce sunfish usd edu date fri apr gmt lines in article c5k1ce sunfish usd edu vkub charlie usd edu vince kub writes now the original scheme as suggested here would be to have the key disappear if certain threatening conditions are met once the key is gone there is no question of contempt of court as there is nothing to compell the key is no longer there to be produced getting rid of the keys is actually pretty easy to do automatically on communications link as opposed to storage where the keys have to be retained somehow as long as the owner wants to be able to retrieve the data the right way to do communications security is to generate random session key with diffie hellman use it for while and then destroy it once it gone there no getting it back and no way to decrypt recordings of the conversation to make sure you aren being attacked by man in the middle you have to authenticate your dh exchanges the at secure phone does this by displaying the dh key so you can compare them verbally over the phone this is nice and simple but it relies on user awareness plus the inability of the man in the middle to duplicate the users voices better way is to authenticate the exchanges with rsa since you never use rsa for actual encryption compromising your rsa secret key would only allow someone to impersonate you in future conversation and even that only until you revoke your public key they would still not be able to decrypt recordings of prior conversations for which the session keys have been destroyed convinced that this is how the government own secure phones the stu iii must work neat eh phil path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech howland reston ans net agate ames haven umd edu darwin sura net udel news intercon com digex com digex com not for mail from pcw access digex com peter wayner newsgroups sci crypt subject the old key registration idea date apr organization express access online communications greenbelt md usa lines message id qn1ic hp6 access digex net nntp posting host access digex net okay let suppose that the nsa nist mykotronix registered key system becomes standard and able to buy such system from my local radio shack every phone comes with built in chip and the government has the key to every phone call go and buy phone and dutifully register the key what to prevent me from swapping phones with friend or buying used phone at garage sale whooa the secret registered keys just became unsynchronized when the government comes to listen in they only receive gobbledly gook because the secret key registered under my name isn the right one that leads me to conjecture that the system isn that secure there are just two master keys that work for all the phones in the country the part about registering your keys is just bogus or the system is vulnerable to simple phone swapping attacks like this criminals will quickly figure this out and go to town in either case think we need to look at this bit deeper jbl mw wxld2 xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt privacy sci crypt alt security comp security misc comp org eff talk path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com emory sol ctr columbia edu ira uka de rz uni karlsruhe de fg70 rz uni karlsruhe de ig25 from ig25 fg70 rz uni karlsruhe de thomas koenig newsgroups alt privacy sci crypt alt security comp security misc comp org eff talk subject re white house public encryption management fact sheet date apr gmt organization university of karlsruhe germany lines distribution na message id ig25 fg70 references c5lgaz dove nist gov nntp posting host fg70 rz uni karlsruhe de mime version content type text plain charset iso content transfer encoding bit clipper csrc ncsl nist gov clipper chip announcement writes the president has approved directive on public encryption management the directive provides for the following when exported abroad it can be used to thwart foreign intelligence activities critical to our national interests the attorney general of the united states or her representative shall request manufacturers of communications hardware which incorporates encryption to install the government developed key escrow microcircuits in their products quite interesting how does the us administration intend to persuade non us governments to let the nsa eavesdrop on them or should companies install these chips in communication systems sold abroad without the customer knowedge or consent or not at all thomas koenig ig25 rz uni karlsruhe de ig25 dkauni2 bitnet the joy of engineering is to find straight line on double logarithmic diagram newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu usenet ins cwru edu howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu bradley bradley edu camelot betel from betel camelot bradley edu robert crawford subject re how to detect use of an illegal cipher message id betel camelot sender news bradley bradley edu nntp posting host camelot bradley edu organization bradley university references c5l17v gh5 dove nist gov bontchev fbihh qmugcinnpu9 gap caltech edu qn74ninni38 golden kaleida com date apr gmt lines jay fenton fenton kaleida com writes how can the government tell which encryption method one is using without being able to decode the traffic in order to accuse me of using an unauthorized strong encryption technique they would have to take both keys out of escrow run them against my ciphertext and draw blank was thinking about this also it quite possible the system transmits in clear the serial number of the device being used that way they can start tap get the serial number and use the warrant for the first tap to get the key if they tap someone who apparently using encryption but don find that prefix then they ll assume it an un authorized encryption scheme may the kloo gnomes be generous to you robert crawford betel camelot bradley edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu usenet ins cwru edu gatech darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet charon cto citicorp com charon cto citicorp com not for mail from philip charon cto citicorp com philip gladstone newsgroups sci crypt subject more clipper stuff date apr organization citicorp lines message id qnark g8 charon cto citicorp com nntp posting host charon cto citicorp com newsreader tin version pl6 as of yet there has been no description of the general principles behind the clipper proposal for example is this public key system or private key system if the latter then don see how the system could work given that the keys are tied to the device and not the person further the escrowed bit keys are split into two bit chunks would guess that the availability of one of these bit chunks and reasonable key search machine would allow you to read the traffic not suggesting that this is deliberate weakness of the system but it does make you think of course this is easily fixable by giving out two bit chunks which could be ored to generate the real bit key philip xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt privacy sci crypt alt security comp security misc comp org eff talk path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net transfer stratus com ellisun sw stratus com cme from cme ellisun sw stratus com carl ellison newsgroups alt privacy sci crypt alt security comp security misc comp org eff talk subject re white house public encryption management fact sheet date apr gmt organization stratus computer software engineering lines distribution na message id qnav4 r3l transfer stratus com references c5lgaz dove nist gov nntp posting host ellisun sw stratus com in article c5lgaz dove nist gov clipper csrc ncsl nist gov clipper chip announcement writes procurement and use of encryption devices the attorney general will procure and utilize encryption devices to the extent needed to preserve the government ability to conduct lawful electronic surveillance and to fulfill the need for secure law enforcement communications further the attorney general shall utilize funds from the department of justice asset forfeiture super surplus fund to effect this purchase talk about adding insult to injury for one believe that the use of civil forfeiture should be abolished by decent administration not continued instead it looks like that ill gotten gain will be used to help pay for wiretap equipment disclaimer all opinions expressed are my own of course carl ellison cme sw stratus com stratus computer inc m3 bkw tel fairbanks boulevard marlborough ma fax xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt security sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech news feed peachnet edu darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet news larc nasa gov news larc nasa gov usenet from palmer larc nasa gov michael palmer newsgroups alt security sci crypt subject re text of white house announcement and as on clipper chip encryption date apr gmt organization nasa langley research center hampton va lines message id qmp88inn1gc rave larc nasa gov references c5l12t gci dove nist gov nntp posting host oldtown larc nasa gov in article c5l12t gci dove nist gov clipper csrc ncsl nist gov clipper chip announcement writes suppose law enforcement agency is conducting wiretap on drug smuggling ring and intercepts conversation etc great nice choice of bad guys to convince everyone how bad unrestricted encryption is why not use child molester instead of course the word suspect is never used here so guess these people have already been convicted and are operating this drug ring from their jail cells how about this question instead suppose law enforcement agency is conducting wiretap on political opponent of senior administration official and intercepts conversation kinda changes your interpretation of the event doesn it and yes the presence of the clipper chip does change things because it will not only give the people talking on the phone false sense of security it will also give federal law enforcement agencies the justification to deny use of strong encryption methods that are inconvenient to them dang it all it supposed to be inconvenient but not impossible that the only sure way to make sure that abuses are minimized while still allowing legitimate law enforcement access how strong is the security in the device how can be sure how strong the security is this system is more secure than many other voice encryption systems readily available today while the algorithm will remain classified to protect the security of the key escrow system we are willing to invite an independent panel of cryptography experts to evaluate the algorithm to assure all potential users that there are no unrecognized vulnerabilities uh huh sure predict that within two months weeks of the chip debut the full technical details will be posted to sci crypt and if this has any impact on the security of the key escrow system then we ve been lied to any cryptosystem worth its salt can withstand the light of public scrutiny and there is no way you can be sure that an algorithm has no unrecognized vulnerabilities unless you have half the world trying to break it for decade or so even then you gotta be careful michael palmer man is crazy who writes secret in any palmer larc nasa gov other way than one which will conceal it ripem key on server from the vulgar roger bacon newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet walter qualcom qualcomm com servo qualcomm com karn from karn servo qualcomm com phil karn subject re re inventing crypto policy an eff statement message id apr16 qualcomm com sender news qualcomm com nntp posting host servo qualcomm com reply to karn chicago qualcomm com organization qualcomm inc references apr16 eff org apr16 news weeg uiowa edu qna0tinnf5p rodan uu net date fri apr gmt lines in article qna0tinnf5p rodan uu net avg rodan uu net vadim antonov writes somehow started to doubt technical competence of the people who designed the system why on the earth split the bit key in bit parts to keep them in escrow separately having bit and large volumes of data voice links produce it should be relatively easy to break it when they simply could keep bit sequences in independent places and then xor all the partial keys to get the actual key sequences should obviously be selected randomly and nth is the actual key xor ed with the random sequences without real technical details it hard to answer this question but suppose they already are xoring the two bit parts to produce only bits of real key material maybe they re using the exportable version of rc2 phil xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp security misc comp org eff talk alt security alt security pgp alt privacy sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc nic csu net oleg newsgroups comp security misc comp org eff talk alt security alt security pgp alt privacy sci crypt subject text of white house announcement and as on clipper chip encryption message id oleg apr16140053 gd cs csufresno edu from oleg gd cs csufresno edu oleg kibirev date apr references c5l15a gf6 dove nist gov distribution na organization computer science departement of california state university infresno nntp posting host gd cs csufresno edu in reply to clipper csrc ncsl nist gov message of fri apr gmt lines in article c5l15a gf6 dove nist gov clipper csrc ncsl nist gov clipper chip announcement writes here is an article found today in comp security misc ll send my reply in separate post to comp off eff org so thayt you guys can get original text have fun oleg relay version vms news v6 b5 vax vms v5 site nic csu net path nic csu net csus edu netcom com netcomsv decwrl uunet dove csrc ncsl nist gov clipper newsgroups comp security misc from clipper csrc ncsl nist gov clipper chip announcement date fri apr gmt sender news dove nist gov distribution na organization national institute of standards technology lines note this file will also be available via anonymous file transfer from csrc ncsl nist gov in directory pub nistnews and via the nist computer security bbs at the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april statement by the press secretary the president today announced new initiative that will bring the federal government together with industry in voluntary program to improve the security and privacy of telephone communications while meeting the legitimate needs of law enforcement the initiative will involve the creation of new products to accelerate the development and use of advanced and secure telecommunications networks and wireless communications links for too long there has been little or no dialogue between our private sector and the law enforcement community to resolve the tension between economic vitality and the real challenges of protecting americans rather than use technology to accommodate the sometimes competing interests of economic growth privacy and law enforcement previous policies have pitted government against industry and the rights of privacy against law enforcement sophisticated encryption technology has been used for years to protect electronic funds transfer it is now being used to protect electronic mail and computer files while encryption technology can help americans protect business secrets and the unauthorized release of personal information it also can be used by terrorists drug dealers and other criminals state of the art microcircuit called the clipper chip has been developed by government engineers the chip represents new approach to encryption technology it can be used in new relatively inexpensive encryption devices that can be attached to an ordinary telephone it scrambles telephone communications using an encryption algorithm that is more powerful than many in commercial use today this new technology will help companies protect proprietary information protect the privacy of personal phone conversations and prevent unauthorized release of data transmitted electronically at the same time this technology preserves the ability of federal state and local law enforcement agencies to intercept lawfully the phone conversations of criminals key escrow system will be established to ensure that the clipper chip is used to protect the privacy of law abiding americans each device containing the chip will have two unique keys numbers that will be needed by authorized government agencies to decode messages encoded by the device when the device is manufactured the two keys will be deposited separately in two key escrow data bases that will be established by the attorney general access to these keys will be limited to government officials with legal authorization to conduct wiretap the clipper chip technology provides law enforcement with no new authorities to access the content of the private conversations of americans to demonstrate the effectiveness of this new technology the attorney general will soon purchase several thousand of the new devices in addition respected experts from outside the government will be offered access to the confidential details of the algorithm to assess its capabilities and publicly report their findings the chip is an important step in addressing the problem of encryption dual edge sword encryption helps to protect the privacy of individuals and industry but it also can shield criminals and terrorists we need the clipper chip and other approaches that can both provide law abiding citizens with access to the encryption they need and prevent criminals from using it to hide their illegal activities in order to assess technology trends and explore new approaches like the key escrow system the president has directed government agencies to develop comprehensive policy on encryption that accommodates the privacy of our citizens including the need to employ voice or data encryption for business purposes the ability of authorized officials to access telephone calls and data under proper court or other legal order when necessary to protect our citizens the effective and timely use of the most modern technology to build the national information infrastructure needed to promote economic growth and the competitiveness of american industry in the global marketplace and the need of companies to manufacture and export high technology products the president has directed early and frequent consultations with affected industries the congress and groups that advocate the privacy rights of individuals as policy options are developed the administration is committed to working with the private sector to spur the development of national information infrastructure which will use new telecommunications and computer technologies to give americans unprecedented access to information this infrastructure of high speed networks information superhighways will transmit video images hdtv programming and huge data files as easily as today telephone system transmits voice since encryption technology will play an increasingly important role in that infrastructure the federal government must act quickly to develop consistent comprehensive policies regarding its use the administration is committed to policies that protect all americans right to privacy while also protecting them from those who break the law further information is provided in an accompanying fact sheet the provisions of the president directive to acquire the new encryption technology are also available for additional details call mat heyman national institute of standards and technology questions and answers about the clinton administration telecommunications initiative does this approach expand the authority of government agencies to listen in on phone conversations no clipper chip technology provides law enforcement with no new authorities to access the content of the private conversations of americans suppose law enforcement agency is conducting wiretap on drug smuggling ring and intercepts conversation encrypted using the device what would they have to do to decipher the message they would have to obtain legal authorization normally court order to do the wiretap in the first place they would then present documentation of this authorization to the two entities responsible for safeguarding the keys and obtain the keys for the device being used by the drug smugglers the key is split into two parts which are stored separately in order to ensure the security of the key escrow system who will run the key escrow data banks the two key escrow data banks will be run by two independent entities at this point the department of justice and the administration have yet to determine which agencies will oversee the key escrow data banks how strong is the security in the device how can be sure how strong the security is this system is more secure than many other voice encryption systems readily available today while the algorithm will remain classified to protect the security of the key escrow system we are willing to invite an independent panel of cryptography experts to evaluate the algorithm to assure all potential users that there are no unrecognized vulnerabilities whose decision was it to propose this product the national security council the justice department the commerce department and other key agencies were involved in this decision this approach has been endorsed by the president the vice president and appropriate cabinet officials who was consulted the congress industry we have on going discussions with congress and industry on encryption issues and expect those discussions to intensify as we carry out our review of encryption policy we have briefed members of congress and industry leaders on the decisions related to this initiative will the government provide the hardware to manufacturers the government designed and developed the key access encryption microcircuits but it is not providing the microcircuits to product manufacturers product manufacturers can acquire the microcircuits from the chip manufacturer that produces them who provides the clipper chip mykotronx programs it at their facility in torrance california and will sell the chip to encryption device manufacturers the programming function could be licensed to other vendors in the future how do buy one of these encryption devices we expect several manufacturers to consider incorporating the clipper chip into their devices if the administration were unable to find technological solution like the one proposed would the administration be willing to use legal remedies to restrict access to more powerful encryption devices this is fundamental policy question which will be considered during the broad policy review the key escrow mechanism will provide americans with an encryption product that is more secure more convenient and less expensive than others readily available today but it is just one piece of what must be the comprehensive approach to encryption technology which the administration is developing the administration is not saying since encryption threatens the public safety and effective law enforcement we will prohibit it outright as some countries have effectively done nor is the saying that every american as matter of right is entitled to an unbreakable commercial encryption product there is false tension created in the assessment that this issue is an either or proposition rather both concerns can be and in fact are harmoniously balanced through reasoned balanced approach such as is proposed with the clipper chip and similar encryption techniques what does this decision indicate about how the clinton administration policy toward encryption will differ from that of the bush administration it indicates that we understand the importance of encryption technology in telecommunications and computing and are committed to working with industry and public interest groups to find innovative ways to protect americans privacy help businesses to compete and ensure that law enforcement agencies have the tools they need to fight crime and terrorism will the devices be exportable will other devices that use the government hardware voice encryption devices are subject to export control requirements case by case review for each export is required to ensure appropriate use of these devices the same is true for other encryption devices one of the attractions of this technology is the protection it can give to companies operating at home and abroad with this in mind we expect export licenses will be granted on case by case basis for companies seeking to use these devices to secure their own communications abroad we plan to review the possibility of permitting wider exportability of these products xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp org eff talk sci crypt newsgroups comp org eff talk sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu linac att csn qwerty gw fsl noaa gov kestrel fsl noaa gov bear from bear kestrel fsl noaa gov bear giles subject how do they know what keys to ask for re clipper message id apr16 fsl noaa gov sender news fsl noaa gov usenet news system organization forecast systems labs noaa boulder co usa references apr16 umr edu apr16 natasha portal com date fri apr gmt lines this may be stupid question but how does the government know which keys to ask for will owners be required to register their phones faxes modems etc and inform the government when they are moved to different phone number will there be penalities if the public does not do this will identification the national health care id perhaps be required when purchasing clipper equipted phone or will each chip transmit identifying information at the start of conversation identification which could be used to automatically log who calls whom the phone company keeps records but this information would be accessable by well placed van near microwave relay station this raises the question of how the two phones agree on communications encryption key will it be something that is derived from information exchanged at the start of the conversation and hence derivable by an eavesdropper bear giles bear fsl noaa gov xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet looking brad from brad clarinet com brad templeton subject re text of white house announcement and as on clipper chip encryption organization clarinet communications corp distribution na date sat apr gmt message id apr17 clarinet com references c5l17v gh5 dove nist gov qmugcinnpu9 gap caltech edu lines the stragegy of the government is interesting the real fear comes from them doing more than this this is voluntary program and thus harder for us to object to on the surface their strategy is business one rather than legal one they are pushing to get standard in place secret standard and if they get it as standard then they will drive competitors out of the market it will be legal to sell better untapable encryption that doesn have registered keys but it will be difficult and thus not plan for most phone companies you see with clipper chip phones you ll be able to talk to any cellular company or other phones or ports because they will follow the standard at has already announced clipper chip encryption product the government has marketed hard to get major vendors to use these chips if they get enough market share they will rule and thus there will be very little market for systems that can be tapped by the police the public isn that concerned about it now after all they freely do calls that anybody with an old tv can listen to today they won pay big extra bucks for proprietary phones that secure them only from the police well some people will buy these phones but they will only work with other proprietary phones so the market will be small and the phones expensive unless they are made in numbers large enough to sell them cheap only the mob will buy them and this means that the fbi will want to track the customer lists of better encryption phones because the only reason person would want one is to evade the police interesting brad templeton clarinet communications corp sunnyvale ca newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com nigel msen com yale edu news yale edu wardibm2 med yale edu user from matt wardsgi med yale edu matt healy subject re illegal wiretaps was message id matt wardibm2 med yale edu followup to sci crypt sender news news yale edu usenet news system nntp posting host wardibm2 med yale edu organization yale genetics references uupcb ssr com date sat apr gmt lines in article uupcb ssr com dick zeitlin acc1bbs ssr com dick zeitlin wrote pk perhaps we need the telephony equivalent of an anonymous remailer for the telephone network back in prohibition days alcohol that is understand device called the cheesebox was popular means to thwart the tracing of telephone calls it connected two phone lines in the back room of an otherwise uninvolved business it was the conceptual predecesso of today anonymous email remailer the old cheesebox was the pre carterphone version of the call diverter after the carterphone decision there were several vendors that sold call diverters ve got couple in my basement that were used to redirect my office phone to my home number when didn feel like going into the office it be quite easy to generate an anonymous redialer version of the call diverter about months ago heard report on npr about number sto pper or some such for placing untraceable calls you call them and on bong tone dial the number you want to call they told the npr interviewer that nothing short of court order which they fight would make them release their records matt healy pretend to be network administrator the lab net pretends to work matt wardsgi med yale edu newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu sample eng ohio state edu purdue yuma ld231782 from ld231782 lance colostate edu detweiler subject an open letter to mr clinton sender news yuma acns colostate edu news account message id apr16 yuma acns colostate edu date fri apr gmt nntp posting host dolores lance colostate edu organization colorado state university fort collins co lines quite astonished shocked and appalled at this serious frontal assault on emerging american freedoms the clinton administration nor any other government agency has any legitimate role whatsoever in regulating cryptography to do so is tantamount to regulating acceptable speech and is blatantly unconstitutional perhaps we should rename this year in honor of such an illustrious proposal let the crappy chip live in infamy and the adminstration receive great shame and discredit for this bizarre misadventure am outraged that my tax money is being used to develop technology to restrict my freedoms far beyond reasonable measures the government will have my full uncooperation and disobedience on any serious threat to my liberties such as this and call on everyone with an interest in sensible government to resist and defy this proposal the administration does not seem to understand that they are merely subservient instrument to implement the will of the public and hence anyone involved in this proposal in this respect is wholly negligent and remiss in performing their lawful duty while encryption technology can help americans protect business secrets and the unauthorized release of personal information it also can be used by terrorists drug dealers and other criminals it seems to me that diplomatic communications should be tappable by the whenever any countries produce warrant to the in fact think we should stop paying the nsa billions of dollars year to produce unbreakable codes for this reason these actions violate the sovereignity of international law hope mr clinton is shrewd enough to recognize my sarcasm and satire here but if he isn it modest and reasonable proposal so he should find merit with it nevertheless cryptography is neutral technology if everybody has strong cryptography including policemen bureacrats businessmen housewives thugs and hoodlums we have sustainable equilibrium anything less is an unworkable anti egaltarian arrangement intrinsically antithetical to american freedoms and guaranteed to collapse under its own weight of inherent impracticality we don need to compromise on issues of freedom for too long there has been little or no dialogue between our private sector and the law enforcement community to resolve the tension between economic vitality and the real challenges of protecting americans for too long our government has demonstrated itself to be increasingly hostile and serious obstacle to economic vitality and protecting americans since encryption technology will play an increasingly important role in that infrastructure the federal government must act quickly to develop consistent comprehensive policies regarding its use the administration is committed to policies that protect all americans right to privacy while also protecting them from those who break the law it is not possible for the federal government to act quickly or develop consistent comprehensive policies period and even if by some grandiose miracle such thing were possible it would only be an efficient way to deprive american citizens of fundamental and inalienable rights the administration has to be committed to leaving private industries alone esp on this issue the government has no legitimate role in regulating the content of communications law enforcement agencies must be prepared to forfeit their surveillance bludgeon they are soon and inevitably to be disarmed of it if the administration were unable to find technological solution like the one proposed would the administration be willing to use legal remedies to restrict access to more powerful encryption devices no such laws can be constitutionally sound and this is equivalent to veiled threat which don appreciate this kind of extortion tends to agitate me and others into radicalism will trade threats for threats and violation for violation the administration is not saying since encryption threatens the public safety and effective law enforcement we will prohibit it outright as some countries have effectively done if the administration did say this it would find itself impeached for reckless and outrageous disregard of essential established entrenched and explicit constitutional privacy guarantees the administration would have no legal standing whatsoever such an action would be egregiously illegal and criminal and wholly untolerated and disregarded by vast segments of the population nor is the saying that every american as matter of right is entitled to an unbreakable commercial encryption product the comprised of vast majority of people fanatically committed to preserving their privacy in the face of an increasingly totalitarian government is saying just that take your chips and give them to nsa employees as christmas bonuses we can run any algorithm on our computers we damn well please and we will make any chips we please and we will send any bit pattern over our data highways we please and if you try to stop us you will be gradually or abruptly dissolved into nothingness privacy vs law enforcement there is false tension created in the assessment that this issue is an either or proposition this is an outright dingaling denning lie the two aims of privacy and surveillance are intrinsically and fundamentally incompatible and you have to work for the nsa to think otherwise americans are about to discover ways through the use of technology to preserve their inalienable but forgotten freedoms that have slowly been eroded away by an increasingly distant and unresponsive and unrepresentative government ld231782 longs lance colostate edu newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu swrinde emory news feed peachnet edu umn edu csus edu netcom com tcmay from tcmay netcom com timothy may subject clipper an infringement on intergraph name message id tcmayc5lr0h ahh netcom com organization netcom on line communication services guest newsreader tin pl5 date sat apr gmt lines besides being an infringement on our civil liberties not the subject in this post the name clipper chip seems very confusable with the clipper chip of intergraph originally designed by team at fairchild semiconductor clipper was bit risc microprocessor it is still used in some workstations notably those from intergraph the supplier of cad tools intergraph acquired the clipper product line when fairchild was sold to national semiconductor several years back when first saw clipper chip in the announcement immediately thought the article was referring to the clipper chip know this seems to be grounds for intergraph to sue but then not lawyer say cryptologist but don want to incriminate myself under the laws of the new regime tim may timothy may crypto anarchy encryption digital money tcmay netcom com anonymous networks digital pseudonyms zero knowledge reputations information markets aptos ca black markets collapse of governments higher power public key pgp and mailsafe available newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com think com yale edu news yale edu wardibm2 med yale edu user from matt wardsgi med yale edu matt healy subject re patents was rc2 rc4 message id matt wardibm2 med yale edu followup to sci crypt sender news news yale edu usenet news system nntp posting host wardibm2 med yale edu organization yale genetics references dockmaster ncsc mil eouk5 eoe co uk bontchev fbihh date sat apr gmt lines in article bontchev fbihh bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de vesselin bontchev wrote ahaley eoe co uk andrew haley writes coca cola has always understood it coca cola is made under licence in dozens of countries around the world you re crazy if you think pepsico doesn know the recipe in all those countries coca cola is distributed in form of concentrate what the local producers simply mix with water and other simple ingredients the trick is to know what is in the concentrate don know if this is still true but at one time coca cola took elaborate measures to keep the formula secret for instance several plants in different cities each made one of six partial concentrates which were then shipped back and forth and remixed in complicated scheme so that no single plant made the whole formula by now would guess that pepsico chemists would have reverse engineered it can be all that exotic actually prefer pepsi anyhow in about minutes gonna put money into pepsi vending machine matt healy pretend to be network administrator the lab net pretends to work matt wardsgi med yale edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu cs utexas edu uunet olivea hal com decwrl csus edu netcom com rlglende from rlglende netcom com robert lewis glendenning newsgroups sci crypt subject re the old key registration idea message id rlglendec5lrwc netcom com date apr gmt references qn1ic hp6 access digex net organization netcom online communication services guest lines the clipper chip will have no effect current generation pcs portable and desktop all have analog voice digital voice and vice versa capabilities so only need modem output to the telephone and can interpose any encryption screen on my voice traffic want not even big deal but it will pass muster if the have way of checking whether am using their clipper chip encryption without full decoding have been chided for stating that dorthy denning was intellectually dishonest in the acm debate and in this newsgroup have previously refrained from suggesting that she is arguing on behalf of consulting clients now say that it is clear that dorthy denning has been functioning as lobbyist not computer scientist she has used legal ethics truth is what you can convince anyone of not scientific ethics truth is understanding the external world maybe we can revoke her acm membership lew lew glendenning rlglende netcom com perspective is worth iq points niels bohr or somebody like that path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu usc cs utexas edu uunet tis com mjr from mjr tis com marcus ranum newsgroups sci crypt subject re how to detect use of an illegal cipher date apr gmt organization trusted information systems inc lines message id qnmnp db8 sol tis com references qmugcinnpu9 gap caltech edu qn74ninni38 golden kaleida com betel camelot nntp posting host sol tis com how can the government tell which encryption method one is using without being able to decode the traffic in order to accuse me of using an unauthorized strong encryption technique they would have to take both keys out of escrow run them against my ciphertext and draw blank was thinking about this also it quite possible the system transmits in clear the serial number of the device being used that way they can start tap get the serial number and use the warrant for the first tap to get the key if they tap someone who apparently using encryption but don find that prefix then they ll assume it an un authorized encryption scheme this doesn handle superencrypted traffic if the clipper doesn impose any unfortunate performance side effects there no reason not to use it to superencrypt stream of triple des encrypted traffic that way your traffic looks normal and perhaps anyone desiring to listen in won even bother since they know nobody going to really trust crypto that has classified internals for important stuff mjr path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu usc elroy jpl nasa gov news claremont edu ucivax news service uci edu beckman com dsg4 dse beckman com rubin newsgroups sci crypt subject re pgp pem and rfc was cryptography patents message id rubin dsg4 dse beckman com from rubin dsg4 dse beckman com arthur rubin date apr gmt references apr10 umr edu apr16 natasha portal com c5lj0t k52 blaze cs jhu edu organization beckman instruments inc nntp posting host dsg4 dse beckman com lines in c5lj0t k52 blaze cs jhu edu eifrig beanworld cs jhu edu jonathan eifrig writes fact it is unlawful to distribute code implementing rsa without license to do so from pkp whether or not one is charging for it furthermore any use of rsa other than for research purposes allowed under us patent law is similarly unlawful therefore the average citizen cannot use rsa to encrypt message traffic in the us without license from pkp wrong don think even pkp claims this one it is not unlawful to distribute code implementing rsa it appears to be unlawful to use it so agree with your last sentence fact there are no restrictions yet on the use of cryptography under us law although this is beginning to look like it will change the only impediments to widespread use of rsa cryptography in the us are pkp patents yes that correct arthur rubin rubin dsg4 dse beckman com work beckman instruments brea mcimail com compuserve com arthur pnet01 cts com personal my opinions are my own and do not represent those of my employer newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu usc elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl netcomsv netcom com jhesse from jhesse netcom com john hesse subject re text of white house announcement and as on clipper chip encryption message id jhessec5ltt5 imc netcom com organization netcom online communication services guest references c5l17v gh5 dove nist gov bontchev fbihh distribution na date sat apr gmt lines stupid me believed the democrats stood for principles of personal privacy while it was the neanderthal republicans that wanted into every aspect of our lives clinton is just more clever than the other guy looks like gun control for privacy technology one small step at time wait minute let me think about this hmmm feel better now believe the white house when they tell us this first step is in fact the final step all is ok we ve nothing to fear they re here to help us god bless america john hesse man jhesse netcom com plan moss beach calif canal bob xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu usc cs utexas edu uunet tis com mjr from mjr tis com marcus ranum newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee subject re text of white house announcement and as on clipper chip encryption date apr gmt organization trusted information systems inc lines distribution na message id qnn7b ddc sol tis com references c5l17v gh5 dove nist gov qmugcinnpu9 gap caltech edu apr17 clarinet com nntp posting host sol tis com brad clarinet com brad templeton writes and this means that the fbi will want to track the customer lists of better encryption phones because the only reason person would want one is to evade the police then they ll probably also want to start tracking the customer lists of people purchasing soundblaster and similar boards which can be configured with the use of some code and modem to act as pretty decent digital encrypting telephone it expensive though and kind of awkward don know any drug lords but sure they favor something tappable over something secure as long as the user interface is nice when you ve got hrh prince of wales saying stupid things over cordless phones it not hard to imagine that drug dealers child pornographers commies lisp programmers and other threats to the civilized world might transact incriminating business over encrypting cellular phones mjr newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu usc elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl netcomsv netcom com jhesse from jhesse netcom com john hesse subject re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow message id jhessec5lumc ex netcom com keywords encryption wiretap clipper key escrow mykotronx organization netcom online communication services guest references rand org rand org strnlghtc5lgfi jqa netcom com date sat apr gmt lines in article strnlghtc5lgfi jqa netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes though share many of the concerns expressed by some find the proposal less threatening than many others since right now most americans have no secure telephony and any jerk with pair of clip leads and goat can eavesdrop this would also plug up the security hole in cellular and cordless phones oh great wonderful news nobody can listen in except the feds you believe that the feds offer the least threat to liberty of anyone and sure do too glad that jerk won be tapping my phone anymore john hesse man jhesse netcom com plan moss beach calif canal bob xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt privacy sci crypt alt security comp security misc comp org eff talk newsgroups alt privacy sci crypt alt security comp security misc comp org eff talk path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet noc near net chpc chpc org rboudrie from rboudrie chpc org rob boudrie subject re white house public encryption management fact sheet message id apr17 chpc org organization center for high perf computing of wpi marlboro ma references c5lgaz dove nist gov distribution na date sat apr gmt lines security of the key escrow system in making this decision do not intend to prevent the private sector from developing or the government from approving other microcircuits or algorithms that are equally effective in assuring both privacy and secure key escrow system yeah but does he intend to prevent the private sector from developing other applications that are equally effective in assuring privacy but do not have key escrow system xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu malgudi oar net ucbeh san uc edu att out att bu edu acs bu edu uni newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee subject re text of white house announcement and as on clipper chip encryption message id bu edu from uni acs bu edu shaen bernhardt date apr gmt sender news bu edu followup to sci crypt references c5l17v gh5 dove nist gov qmugcinnpu9 gap caltech edu distribution na organization boston university boston ma usa lines in article qmugcinnpu9 gap caltech edu hal cco caltech edu hal finney writes the key question is whether non clipper encryption will be made illegal the administration is not saying since encryption threatens the public safety and effective law enforcement we will prohibit it outright as some countries have effectively done nor is the saying that every american as matter of right is entitled to an unbreakable commercial encryption product there is false tension created in the assessment that this issue is an either or proposition rather both concerns can be and in fact are harmoniously balanced through reasoned balanced approach such as is proposed with the clipper chip and similar encryption techniques the clear middle ground implied by these statements is to say that americans have the right to clipper encryption but not to unbreakable encryption this implies that ultimately non clipper strong encryption must become illegal text deleted no value judgement implied it shocking and frightening to see that this is actually happening here hal finney hal alumni caltech edu more than shocking what this says to me is no less than that government is very interested in monitoring the public this does more than scare me it mortifies me pgp and ripem must become widespread enough to resist what mr finney has imho correctly identified as the next logical step what was once an academic discussion with regard to concealing cyphertext has now become real consideration the rhetoric that the clinton administration seems obsessed with harmony either or propositions tension tells me that they know how difficult it will be to sell this proposition the phrase hear more and more is can believe this is actually happening here call me conserative clinton was huge mistake that we ll all be paying for tommorow and many years from now have we approached the age of speakeasy public key depositiories uni dark uni acs bu edu public keys by finger and or request public key archives at pgp public keys junkbox cc iastate edu sovereignty is the sign of brutal past xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu usc elroy jpl nasa gov nntp server caltech edu hal from hal cco caltech edu hal finney newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee subject re text of white house announcement and as on clipper chip encryption date apr gmt organization california institute of technology pasadena lines distribution na message id qnpjuinn8ci gap caltech edu references c5l17v gh5 dove nist gov qmugcinnpu9 gap caltech edu apr17 clarinet com nntp posting host alumni caltech edu brad clarinet com brad templeton writes their strategy is business one rather than legal one they are pushing to get standard in place secret standard and if they get it as standard then they will drive competitors out of the market it will be legal to sell better untapable encryption that doesn have registered keys but it will be difficult and thus not plan for most phone companies if brad analysis is correct it may offer an explanation for why the encryption algorithm is being kept secret this will prevent competitors from coming out with clipper compatible phones which lack the government installed back door the strategy brad describes will only work as long as the only way to get compatible phones is to have ones with the government chips it would be nice from the point of view of personal privacy if brad turns out to be right as long as people still have the power to provide their own encryption in place of or in addition to the clipper privacy is still possible but the wording of several passages in the announcement makes me doubt whether this will turn out to be true hal finney newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu caen uunet news centerline com noc near net chpc chpc org rboudrie from rboudrie chpc org rob boudrie subject re the old key registration idea message id apr17 chpc org organization center for high perf computing of wpi marlboro ma references qn1ic hp6 access digex net date sat apr gmt lines in article qn1ic hp6 access digex net pcw access digex com peter wayner writes okay let suppose that the nsa nist mykotronix registered key system becomes standard and able to buy such system from my local radio shack every phone comes with built in chip and the government has the key to every phone call go and buy phone and dutifully register the key what to prevent me from swapping phones with friend or buying used phone at garage sale whooa the secret registered keys just became unsynchronized when the government comes it very possible even likely that the serial number of the invididual chip is broadcast either in standard encrypted format so that all the big brother types need to do is listen to the traffic get court order generally just by saying that they think you may be crook and go to it to listen in they only receive gobbledly gook because the secret key registered under my name isn the right one that leads me to conjecture that the system isn that secure there are just two master keys that work for all the phones in the country the part about registering your keys is just bogus or the system is vulnerable to simple phone swapping attacks like this criminals will quickly figure this out and go to town in either case think we need to look at this bit deeper jbl mw wxld2 path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu usc elroy jpl nasa gov ames olivea uunet news centerline com noc near net chpc chpc org rboudrie from rboudrie chpc org rob boudrie newsgroups sci crypt subject why the algorithm is secret message id apr17 chpc org date apr gmt references c5l17v gh5 dove nist gov qmugcinnpu9 gap caltech edu bu edu distribution na organization center for high perf computing of wpi marlboro ma lines my thoughts on why the algorithm is secret the chip is regretably likely to become standard there will be many applications where economic factors dictate use of this chip like it or not if the alrogithm is public and the code is as secure absent the access to escrowed keys as represented an enterprising sort would make compatible crypto chips for which no key had been escrowed this is likely what the release was refering to when they refered to the secrecy of the algorithm protecting the security of the escrow system rob boudrie xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt security sci crypt newsgroups alt security sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu caen uunet ddsw1 chinet schneier from schneier chinet chi il us bruce schneier subject issa conference message id c5lvro yg chinet chi il us organization chinet public access unix distribution usa date sat apr gmt lines if there is anyone attending the issa conference in arlington va next week would appreciate them getting in touch with me bruce xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp org eff talk sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu usc elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl olivea uunet looking brad from brad clarinet com brad templeton newsgroups comp org eff talk sci crypt subject re how do they know what keys to ask for re clipper message id apr17 clarinet com date apr gmt references apr16 umr edu apr16 natasha portal com apr16 fsl noaa gov organization clarinet communications corp lines the actual algorithm is classified however their main thrust here is for cellular phones and encryption is only over the radio end not end to end think end to end will come later and of course you have to identify yourself to the phone company and since the phone company complies with court orders they will know the magic number of your chip when they sign out warrant on you and then can present the warrant to the key escrow house brad templeton clarinet communications corp sunnyvale ca xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu ames olivea uunet looking brad from brad clarinet com brad templeton newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee subject re text of white house announcement and as on clipper chip encryption message id apr17 clarinet com date apr gmt references qmugcinnpu9 gap caltech edu apr17 clarinet com qnn7b ddc sol tis com distribution na organization clarinet communications corp lines in article qnn7b ddc sol tis com mjr tis com marcus ranum writes when you ve got hrh prince of wales saying stupid things over cordless phones it not hard to imagine that drug dealers child pornographers commies lisp programmers and other threats to the civilized world might transact incriminating business over encrypting cellular phones let assume for the moment that the system really is secure unless you get both halves of the encryption key from the two independent escrow houses let say you even trust the escrow houses one is the aclu and the other is the eff and not entirely joking about those two names in that case the prince of wales has nothing to worry about on this system indeed as pointed out since the current systems even the current digital systems are very easy to decode right now anybody with an old tv can hear them for most people this will be viewed as an oh goody step upwards and look at how tolerant the public is they re willing to let the neighbours with the radios hear right now it was suggested by one person that lot of non evidentiary wiretapping is going on right now without warrants because anybody can do it and it just an ecpa violation this would stop that all tapping would need warrant or breach of security at the escrow houses brad templeton clarinet communications corp sunnyvale ca xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu usc elroy jpl nasa gov ames olivea uunet looking brad from brad clarinet com brad templeton newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee subject once tapped your code is no good any more message id apr17 clarinet com date apr gmt references c5l17v gh5 dove nist gov qmugcinnpu9 gap caltech edu distribution na organization clarinet communications corp lines it occurs to me that if they get wiretap order on you and the escrow houses release your code to the cops your code is now no longer secure it in the hands of cops and while am sure most of the time they are good their security will not be as good as the escrow houses what this effectively means is that if they perform wiretap on you at the end of the wiretap they should be obligated to inform you that tap was performed and replace for free the clipper chip in your cellular phone so that it is once again code known only to the escrow houses do the police normally reveal every tap they do even if no charges are laid in many ways it would be positive step if they had to judges set time limits on warrants assume at the end of the time limit they should have to renew or replace your chip that if we go with this scheme which am not sure agree with brad templeton clarinet communications corp sunnyvale ca path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel news intercon com usenet from amanda intercon com amanda walker newsgroups sci crypt subject re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow date fri apr organization intercon systems corporation herndon va usa lines distribution world message id qnupd jpm news intercon com references jhessec5lumc ex netcom com reply to amanda intercon com amanda walker nntp posting host chaos intercon com keywords encryption wiretap clipper key escrow mykotronx newsreader intercon tcp connect ii jhesse netcom com john hesse writes oh great wonderful news nobody can listen in except the feds hey it better than the status quo am far less worried about the feds tapping my phone than high school scanner surfers who get their kicks out of eavesdropping on cellular and cordless phone calls it would be stupid to rely on even clipperized channel for truly sensitive material but it does seem to finally offer reasonable way to guard against casual eavesdropping for example even with my strong right to bear arms view of the private right to possess and use strong cryptosystems the system as described provides enough security that would actually buy cordless phone and would be much less wary of using cellular phones walkie talkies and so on as long as it only used for mass market voice scrambling actually don see problem with it if you want more security than it offers use something different use pkcs for electronic mail celp over des or triple des with diffie hellman key exchange for your voice traffic or whatever and yes rather just see all crypto restrictions lifted but this is at least an incrememental improvement for certain applications amanda walker intercon systems corporation path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel news intercon com usenet from amanda intercon com amanda walker newsgroups sci crypt subject re text of white house announcement and as on clipper chip encryption date fri apr organization intercon systems corporation herndon va usa lines distribution world message id qnv8d jrf news intercon com references bu edu reply to amanda intercon com amanda walker nntp posting host chaos intercon com newsreader intercon tcp connect ii in article bu edu uni acs bu edu shaen bernhardt writes more than shocking what this says to me is no less than that government is very interested in monitoring the public this does more than scare me it mortifies me if this is any surprise to you shocked amanda walker intercon systems corporation xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt sci answers news answers path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu cs utexas edu uunet noc near net pad thai aktis com pad thai aktis com not for mail from crypt comments math ncsu edu newsgroups sci crypt sci answers news answers subject cryptography faq overview followup to poster date apr organization the crypt cabal lines sender faqserv gza com approved news answers request mit edu expires may gmt message id cryptography faq part01 gza com reply to crypt comments math ncsu edu nntp posting host pad thai aktis com summary part of of the sci crypt faq overview table of contents for subsequent sections contributors feedback archives administrivia last updated archive name cryptography faq part01 last modified faq for sci crypt part overview this is the first of ten parts of the sci crypt faq the parts are mostly independent but you should read this part before the rest we don have the time to send out missing parts by mail so don ask notes such as kah67 refer to the reference list in the last part disclaimer this document is the product of the crypt cabal secret society which serves the national secu uh no seriously we re the good guys and we ve done what we can to ensure the completeness and accuracy of this document but in field of military and commercial importance like cryptography you have to expect that some people and organizations consider their interests more important than open scientific discussion trust only what you can verify firsthand and don sue us many people have contributed to this faq in alphabetical order eric bach steve bellovin dan bernstein nelson bolyard carl ellison jim gillogly mike gleason doug gwyn luke connor tony patti william setzer we apologize for any omissions if you have suggestions comments or criticism please let the current editors know by sending mail to crypt comments math ncsu edu we don assume that this faq is at all complete at this point archives sci crypt has been archived since october on cl next2 cl msu edu though these archives are available only to and canadian users please contact crypt comments math ncsu edu if you know of other archives the sections of this faq are available via anonymous ftp to rtfm mit edu as pub usenet news answers cryptography faq part xx the cryptography faq is posted to the newsgroups sci crypt sci answers and news answers every days table of contents overview net etiquette what groups are around what faq who am why am here do political discussions belong in sci crypt how do present new encryption scheme in sci crypt basic cryptology what is cryptology cryptography plaintext ciphertext encryption key what references can start with to learn cryptology how does one go about cryptanalysis what is brute force search and what is its cryptographic relevance what are some properties satisfied by every strong cryptosystem if cryptosystem is theoretically unbreakable then is it guaranteed analysis proof in practice why are many people still using cryptosystems that are relatively easy to break mathematical cryptology in mathematical terms what is private key cryptosystem what is an attack what the advantage of formulating all this mathematically why is the one time pad secure what ciphertext only attack what known plaintext attack what chosen plaintext attack in mathematical terms what can you say about brute force attacks what key guessing attack what entropy product ciphers what is product cipher what makes product cipher secure what are some group theoretic properties of product ciphers what can be proven about the security of product cipher how are block ciphers used to encrypt data longer than the block size can symmetric block ciphers be used for message authentication what exactly is des what is triple des what is differential cryptanalysis how was nsa involved in the design of des is des available in software is des available in hardware can des be used to protect classified information what are ecb cbc cfb and ofb encryption public key cryptography what is public key cryptography what rsa is rsa secure how fast can people factor numbers what about other public key cryptosystems digital signatures and hash functions what is one way hash function what is the difference between public private secret shared etc what are md4 and md5 what is snefru technical miscellany how do recover from lost passwords in wordperfect how do break vigenere repeated key cipher how do send encrypted mail under unix pgp ripem pem is the unix crypt command secure how do use compression with encryption is there an unbreakable cipher what does random mean in cryptography what is the unicity point unicity distance what is key management and why is it important can use pseudo random or chaotic numbers as key stream what is the correct frequency list for english letters what is the enigma how do shuffle cards can foil pirates by encrypting my cd rom can you do automatic cryptanalysis of simple ciphers what is the coding system used by vcr other miscellany what is the national security agency nsa what are the us export regulations what is tempest what are the beale ciphers and are they hoax what is the american cryptogram association and how do get in touch is rsa patented what about the voynich manuscript references books on history and classical methods books on modern methods survey articles reference articles journals conference proceedings other how may one obtain copies of fips and ansi standards cited herein electronic sources rfcs available from ftprf related newsgroups xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt sci answers news answers path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu cs utexas edu uunet noc near net pad thai aktis com pad thai aktis com not for mail from crypt comments math ncsu edu newsgroups sci crypt sci answers news answers subject cryptography faq mathematical cryptology followup to poster date apr organization the crypt cabal lines sender faqserv gza com approved news answers request mit edu expires may gmt message id cryptography faq part04 gza com references cryptography faq part01 gza com reply to crypt comments math ncsu edu nntp posting host pad thai aktis com summary part of of the sci crypt faq mathematical cryptology private key systems types of attacks brute force cyphertext plaintext etc mathematical formulation of cryptography security of one time pads last updated archive name cryptography faq part04 last modified faq for sci crypt part mathematical cryptology this is the fourth of ten parts of the sci crypt faq the parts are mostly independent but you should read the first part before the rest we don have the time to send out missing parts by mail so don ask notes such as kah67 refer to the reference list in the last part the sections of this faq are available via anonymous ftp to rtfm mit edu as pub usenet news answers cryptography faq part xx the cryptography faq is posted to the newsgroups sci crypt sci answers and news answers every days contents in mathematical terms what is private key cryptosystem what is an attack what the advantage of formulating all this mathematically why is the one time pad secure what ciphertext only attack what known plaintext attack what chosen plaintext attack in mathematical terms what can you say about brute force attacks what key guessing attack what entropy in mathematical terms what is private key cryptosystem private key cryptosystem consists of an encryption system and decryption system the encryption system is collection of functions indexed by keys mapping some set of plaintexts to some set of ciphertexts similarly the decryption system is collection of functions such that for every plaintext that is succesful decryption of ciphertext into plaintext is accomplished using the same key index as was used for the corresponding encryption of plaintext into ciphertext such systems wherein the same key value is used to encrypt and decrypt are also known as symmetric cryptoystems what is an attack in intuitive terms passive attack on cryptosystem is any method of starting with some information about plaintexts and their corresponding ciphertexts under some unknown key and figuring out more information about the plaintexts it possible to state mathematically what this means here we go fix functions and of variables fix an encryption system and fix distribution of plaintexts and keys an attack on using assuming giving with probability is an algorithm with pair of inputs and one output such that there is probability of computing if we have and note that this probability depends on the distribution of the vector the attack is trivial or pointless if there is probability at least of computing if and here range uniformly over the possible ciphertexts and have no particular relation to in other words an attack is trivial if it doesn actually use the encryptions an attack is called one ciphertext if two ciphertext if and so on what the advantage of formulating all this mathematically in basic cryptology you can never prove that cryptosystem is secure read part we keep saying strong cryptosystem must have this property but having this property is no guarantee that cryptosystem is strong in contrast the purpose of mathematical cryptology is to precisely formulate and if possible prove the statement that cryptosystem is strong we say for example that cryptosystem is secure against all passive attacks if any nontrivial attack against the system as defined above is too slow to be practical if we can prove this statement then we have confidence that our cryptosystem will resist any passive cryptanalytic technique if we can reduce this statement to some well known unsolved problem then we still have confidence that the cryptosystem isn easy to break other parts of cryptology are also amenable to mathematical definition again the point is to explicitly identify what assumptions we re making and prove that they produce the desired results we can figure out what it means for particular cryptosystem to be used properly it just means that the assumptions are valid the same methodology is useful for cryptanalysis too the cryptanalyst can take advantage of incorrect assumptions often he can try to construct proof of security for system see where the proof fails and use these failures as the starting points for his analysis why is the one time pad secure by definition the one time pad is cryptosystem where the plaintexts ciphertexts and keys are all strings say byte strings of some length and is just the sum let say the exclusive or of and it is easy to prove mathematically that there are no nontrivial single ciphertext attacks on the one time pad assuming uniform distribution of keys note that we don have to assume uniform distribution of plaintexts here the proof let be an attack an algorithm taking two inputs and producing one output with some probability that whenever and then because the distribution of is uniform and independent of the distribution of must also be uniform and independent of but also the distribution of is uniform and independent of hence there is probability exactly that whenever and over all and thus fortiori is trivial on the other hand the one time pad is not secure if key is used for more than one plaintext there are nontrivial multiple ciphertext attacks so to be properly used key must be thrown away after one encryption the key is also called pad this explains the name one time pad what ciphertext only attack in the notation above ciphertext only attack is one where is constant given only some information about ciphertexts the attack has to have some chance of producing some information about the plaintexts the attack is trivial if it has just as good chance of producing when given for random for example say and say is the first bit of we can easily write down an attack the guessing attack which simply guesses that is this attack is trivial because it doesn use the ciphertext it has fifty fifty chance of guessing correctly no matter what on the other hand there is an attack on rsa which produces one bit of information about with success using if it is fed random then the success rate drops to so this is nontrivial attack what known plaintext attack the classic known plaintext attack has and depending only on in other words given two ciphertexts and and one decryption the known plaintext attack should produce information about the other decryption note that known plaintext attacks are often defined in the literature as producing information about the key but this is pointless the cryptanalyst generally cares about the key only insofar as it lets him decrypt further messages what chosen plaintext attack chosen plaintext attack is the first of an increasingly impractical series of active attacks on cryptosystem attacks where the cryptanalyst feeds data to the encryptor these attacks don fit into our model of passive attacks explained above anyway chosen plaintext attack lets the cryptanalyst choose plaintext and look at the corresponding ciphertext then repeat until he has figured out how to decrypt any message more absurd examples of this sort of attack are the chosen key attack and chosen system attack much more important form of active attack is message corruption attack where the attacker tries to change the ciphertext in such way as to make useful change in the plaintext there are many easy ways to throw kinks into all of these attacks for instance automatically encrypting any plaintext as where is time key sequence number chosen anew for each message is random number and is one way hash function here comma means concatenation and plus means exclusive or in mathematical terms what can you say about brute force attacks consider the following known plaintext attack we are given some plaintexts and ciphertexts we re also given ciphertext we run through every key when we find such that for every we print if is big enough that only one key works this attack will succeed on valid inputs all the time while it will produce correct results only once in blue moon for random inputs thus this is nontrivial attack its only problem is that it is very slow if there are many possible keys what key guessing attack what entropy say somebody is using the one time pad but isn choosing keys randomly and uniformly from all bit messages as he was supposed to for our security proof in fact say he known to prefer keys which are english words then cryptanalyst can run through all english words as possible keys this attack will often succeed and it much faster than brute force search of the entire keyspace we can measure how bad key distribution is by calculating its entropy this number is the number of real bits of information of the key cryptanalyst will typically happen across the key within guesses is defined as the sum of log where is the probability of key xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt sci answers news answers path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu usc cs utexas edu uunet noc near net pad thai aktis com pad thai aktis com not for mail from crypt comments math ncsu edu newsgroups sci crypt sci answers news answers subject cryptography faq technical miscellany followup to poster date apr organization the crypt cabal lines sender faqserv gza com approved news answers request mit edu expires may gmt message id cryptography faq part08 gza com references cryptography faq part01 gza com reply to crypt comments math ncsu edu nntp posting host pad thai aktis com summary part of of the sci crypt faq technical miscellany recovering word perfect passwords breaking vigenerre ciphers encrypting unix files email security of unix crypt command encryption and compression key management letter frequency the german enigma code card shuffling piracy last updated archive name cryptography faq part08 last modified faq for sci crypt part technical miscellany this is the eighth of ten parts of the sci crypt faq the parts are mostly independent but you should read the first part before the rest we don have the time to send out missing parts by mail so don ask notes such as kah67 refer to the reference list in the last part the sections of this faq are available via anonymous ftp to rtfm mit edu as pub usenet news answers cryptography faq part xx the cryptography faq is posted to the newsgroups sci crypt sci answers and news answers every days contents how do recover from lost passwords in wordperfect how do break vigenere repeated key cipher how do send encrypted mail under unix pgp ripem pem is the unix crypt command secure how do use compression with encryption is there an unbreakable cipher what does random mean in cryptography what is the unicity point unicity distance what is key management and why is it important can use pseudo random or chaotic numbers as key stream what is the correct frequency list for english letters what is the enigma how do shuffle cards can foil pirates by encrypting my cd rom can you do automatic cryptanalysis of simple ciphers what is the coding system used by vcr how do recover from lost passwords in wordperfect wordperfect encryption has been shown to be very easy to break the method uses xor with two repeating key streams typed password and byte wide counter initialized to the password length full descriptions are given in bennett ben87 and bergen and caelli ber91 chris galas writes someone awhile back was looking for way to decrypt wordperfect document files and think have solution there is software company named accessdata east south orem ut that has software package that will decrypt any wordperfect lotus quatro pro ms excel and paradox files the cost of the package is steep prices but if you think your pw key is less than characters or char give them call and ask for the free demo disk the demo disk will decrypt files that have char or less pw key how do break vigenere repeated key cipher repeated key cipher where the ciphertext is something like the plaintext xor keykeykeykey and so on is called vigenere cipher if the key is not too long and the plaintext is in english do the following discover the length of the key by counting coincidences see gaines gai44 sinkov sin66 trying each displacement of the ciphertext against itself count those bytes which are equal if the two ciphertext portions have used the same key something over of the bytes will be equal if they have used different key then less than will be equal assuming random bit bytes of key covering normal ascii text the smallest displacement which indicates an equal key is the length of the repeated key shift the text by that length and xor it with itself this removes the key and leaves you with text xored with itself since english has about bit of real information per byte streams of text xored together has bits of info per bit byte providing plenty of redundancy for choosing unique decryption and in fact one stream of text xored with itself has just bit per byte if the key is short it might be even easier to treat this as standard polyalphabetic substitution all the old cryptanalysis texts show how to break those it possible with those methods in the hands of an expert if there only ten times as much text as key see for example gaines gai44 sinkov sin66 how do send encrypted mail under unix pgp ripem pem here one popular method using the des command cat file compress des private key uuencode mail meanwhile there is de jure internet standard in the works called pem privacy enhanced mail it is described in rfcs through to join the pem mailing list contact pem dev request tis com there is beta version of pem being tested at the time of this writing there are also two programs available in the public domain for encrypting mail pgp and ripem both are available by ftp each has its own newsgroup alt security pgp and alt security ripem each has its own faq as well pgp is most commonly used outside the usa since it uses the rsa algorithm without license and rsa patent is valid only or at least primarily in the usa ripem is most commonly used inside the usa since it uses the rsaref which is freely available within the usa but not available for shipment outside the usa since both programs use secret key algorithm for encrypting the body of the message pgp used idea ripem uses des and rsa for encrypting the message key they should be able to interoperate freely although there have been repeated calls for each to understand the other formats and algorithm choices no interoperation is available at this time as far as we know is the unix crypt command secure no see ree84 there is program available called cbw crypt breaker workbench which can be used to do ciphertext only attacks on files encrypted with crypt one source for cbw is ftpcb how do use compression with encryption number of people have proposed doing perfect compression followed by some simple encryption method xor with repeated key unfortunately you can only compress perfectly if you know the exact distribution of possible inputs for all practical purposes it impossible to describe the typical english text beyond coarse characteristics such as single letter frequencies you can build up more and more sophisticated models of your inputs but if the enemy has slightly more accurate model he ll be able to find some redundancy in your compressed output note that nearly all practical compression schemes unless they have been designed with cryptography in mind produce output that actually starts off with high redundancy for example the output of unix compress begins with well known three byte magic number that can serve as an entering wedge for cryptanalysis this is not to say that compression before encryption is inherently bad idea it just has to be done very very carefully and by no means removes the need for strong encryption compression after encryption is silly is there an unbreakable cipher yes the one time pad is unbreakable see part unfortunately the one time pad requires secure distribution of as much key material as plaintext of course cryptosystem need not be utterly unbreakable to be useful rather it needs to be strong enough to resist attacks by likely enemies for whatever length of time the data it protects is expected to remain valid what does random mean in cryptography cryptographic applications demand much more out of pseudorandom number generator than most applications for source of bits to be cryptographically random it must be computationally impossible to predict what the nth random bit will be given complete knowledge of the algorithm or hardware generating the stream and the sequence of th through st bits for all up to the lifetime of the source software generator also known as pseudo random has the function of expanding truly random seed to longer string of apparently random bits this seed must be large enough not to be guessed by the opponent ideally it should also be truly random perhaps generated by hardware random number source those who have sparcstation workstations could for example generate random numbers using the audio input device as source of entropy by not connecting anything to it for example cat dev audio compress foo gives file of high entropy not random but with much randomness in it one can then encrypt that file using part of itself as key for example to convert that seed entropy into pseudo random string when looking for hardware devices to provide this entropy it is important really to measure the entropy rather than just assume that because it looks complicated to human it must be random for example disk operation completion times sound like they might be unpredictable to many people but spinning disk is much like clock and its output completion times are relatively low in entropy what is the unicity point unicity distance see sha49 the unicity distance is an approximation to that amount of ciphertext such that the sum of the real information entropy in the corresponding source text and encryption key equals the number of ciphertext bits used ciphertexts significantly longer than this can be shown probably to have unique decipherment this is used to back up claim of the validity of ciphertext only cryptanalysis ciphertexts significantly shorter than this are likely to have multiple equally valid decryptions and therefore to gain security from the opponent difficulty choosing the correct one unicity distance like all statistical or information theoretic measures does not make deterministic predictions but rather gives probabilistic results namely the minimum amount of ciphertext for which it is likely that there is only single intelligible plaintext corresponding to the ciphertext when all possible keys are tried for the decryption working cryptologists don normally deal with unicity distance as such instead they directly determine the likelihood of events of interest let the unicity distance of cipher be characters if fewer than ciphertext characters have been intercepted then there is not enough information to distinguish the real key from set of possible keys des has unicity distance of characters which is less than ciphertext blocks each block corresponds to ascii characters this may seem alarmingly low at first but the unicity distance gives no indication of the computational work required to find the key after approximately characters have been intercepted in fact actual cryptanalysis seldom proceeds along the lines used in discussing unicity distance like other measures such as key size unicity distance is something that guarantees insecurity if it too small but doesn guarantee security if it high few practical cryptosystems are absolutely impervious to analysis all manner of characteristics might serve as entering wedges to crack some cipher messages however similar information theoretic considerations are occasionally useful for example to determine recommended key change interval for particular cryptosystem cryptanalysts also employ variety of statistical and information theoretic tests to help guide the analysis in the most promising directions unfortunately most literature on the application of information statistics to cryptanalysis remains classified even the seminal work of alan turing see koz84 for some insight into the possibilities see kul68 and goo83 what is key management and why is it important one of the fundamental axioms of cryptography is that the enemy is in full possession of the details of the general cryptographic system and lacks only the specific key data employed in the encryption of course one would assume that the cia does not make habit of telling mossad about its cryptosystems but mossad probably finds out anyway repeated use of finite amount of key provides redundancy that can eventually facilitate cryptanalytic progress thus especially in modern communication systems where vast amounts of information are transferred both parties must have not only sound cryptosystem but also enough key material to cover the traffic key management refers to the distribution authentication and handling of keys publicly accessible example of modern key management technology is the stu iii secure telephone unit which for classified use employs individual coded crypto ignition keys and central key management center operated by nsa there is hierarchy in that certain ciks are used by authorized cryptographic control personnel to validate the issuance of individual traffic keys and to perform installation maintenance functions such as the reporting of lost ciks this should give an inkling of the extent of the key management problem for public key systems there are several related issues many having to do with whom do you trust can use pseudo random or chaotic numbers as key stream chaotic equations and fractals produce an apparent randomness from relatively compact generators perhaps the simplest example is linear congruential sequence one of the most popular types of random number generators where there is no obvious dependence between seeds and outputs unfortunately the graph of any such sequence will in high enough dimension show up as regular lattice mathematically this lattice corresponds to structure which is notoriously easy for cryptanalysts to exploit more complicated generators have more complicated structure which is why they make interesting pictures but cryptographically strong sequence will have no computable structure at all see knu81 exercise ree77 and boy89 what is the correct frequency list for english letters there are three answers to this question each slightly deeper than the one before you can find the first answer in various books namely frequency list computed directly from certain sample of english text of course any such list will be correctly computed but exactly which list you get depends on which sample was taken the second answer is that the question doesn make sense what do you mean by english letters the english language is not fixed finite closed object that can be exactly characterized it has changed over time it is different between different authors any particular message will have different statistics from those of the language as whole the third answer is that yes no particular message is going to have exactly the same characteristics as english in general but for all reasonable statistical uses these slight discrepancies won matter in fact there an entire field called bayesian statistics other buzzwords are maximum entropy methods and maximum likelihood estimation which studies questions like what the chance that text with these letter frequencies is in english and comes up with reasonably robust answers so make your own list from your own samples of english text it will be good enough for practical work if you use it properly what is the enigma for project in data security we are looking for sources of information about the german enigma code and how it was broken by the british during wwii see wel82 dea85 koz84 hod83 kah91 how do shuffle cards card shuffling is special case of the permutation of an array of values using random or pseudo random function all possible output permutations of this process should be equally likely to do this you need random function modran which will produce uniformly distributed random integer in the interval given that function you can shuffle with the following code assuming arrlth is the length of array arr and swap interchanges values at the two addresses given for arrlth swap arr modran arr modran can not be achieved exactly with simple ranno since ranno interval may not be divisible by although in most cases the error will be very small to cover this case one can take ranno modulus mod call that number and if ranno returns value less than go back and get another ranno value can foil pirates by encrypting my cd rom someone will frequently express the desire to publish cd rom with possibly multiple pieces of software perhaps with each encrypted separately and will want to use different keys for each user perhaps even good for only limited period of time in order to avoid piracy as far as we know this is impossible since there is nothing in standard pc or workstation hardware which uniquely identifies the user at the keyboard if there were such an identification then the cd rom could be encrypted with key based in part on the one sold to the user and in part on the unique identifier however in this case the cd rom is one of kind and that defeats the intended purpose if the cd rom is to be encrypted once and then mass produced there must be key or set of keys for that encryption produced at some stage in the process that key is useable with any copy of the cd rom data the pirate needs only to isolate that key and sell it along with the illegal copy can you do automatic cryptanalysis of simple ciphers schneier chinet chi il us bruce schneier says accessdata of orem utah sells products that break the password scheme of number of popular macintosh and pc software packages their telephone number is no pd software has been cited but there are many papers on the subject peleg and rosenfeld breaking substitution ciphers using relaxation algorithm comm acm vol pp nov lucks michael constraint satisfaction algorithm for the automated decryption of simple substitution ciphers advances in cryptology crypto springer lecture notes in computer science vol the paper also contains references to earlier work on the subject john carrol and steve martin the automated cryptanalysis of substitution ciphers cryptologia vol number oct p193 john carrol and lynda robbins automated cryptanalysis of polyalphabetic ciphers cryptologia vol xi number oct p193 martin kochanski survey of data insecurity packages cryptologia vol xi number jan p1 martin kochanski another data insecurity package cryptologia vol xii number july p165 cryptologia vol xiii number pp king and bahler probabilistic relaxation in the cryptanalysis of simple substitution ciphers cryptologia king and bahler an algorithmic solution of sequential homophonic ciphers cryptologia april in press spillman et al use of genetic algorithms in cryptanalysis of simple substitution ciphers cryptologia vol xvii number jan p31 what is the coding system used by vcr one very frequently asked question in sci crypt is about how the vcr codes work the following article attempts to describe it shirriff welch kinsman decoding vcr controller code cryptologia july pp xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt sci answers news answers path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu usc cs utexas edu uunet noc near net pad thai aktis com pad thai aktis com not for mail from crypt comments math ncsu edu newsgroups sci crypt sci answers news answers subject cryptography faq references followup to poster date apr organization the crypt cabal lines sender faqserv gza com approved news answers request mit edu expires may gmt message id cryptography faq part10 gza com references cryptography faq part01 gza com reply to crypt comments math ncsu edu nntp posting host pad thai aktis com summary part of of the sci crypt faq references history and classical methods modern methods survey and reference articles journals and conference proceedings electronic sources ftp sites related newsgroups last updated archive name cryptography faq part10 last modified faq for sci crypt part references this is the tenth of ten parts of the sci crypt faq the parts are mostly independent but you should read the first part before the rest we don have the time to send out missing parts by mail so don ask notes such as kah67 refer to the reference list in this part the sections of this faq are available via anonymous ftp to rtfm mit edu as pub usenet news answers cryptography faq part xx the cryptography faq is posted to the newsgroups sci crypt sci answers and news answers every days contents books on history and classical methods books on modern methods survey articles reference articles journals conference proceedings other electronic sources rfcs available from ftprf related newsgroups books on history and classical methods cf lambros callimahos william friedman military cryptanalytics aegean park press dea85 cipher deavours louis kruh machine cryptography and modern cryptanalysis artech house washington st dedham ma frie2 william friedman solving german codes in world war aegean park press gai44 gaines cryptanalysis study of ciphers and their solution dover publications hin00 hinsley et al british intelligence in the second world war cambridge university press vol so far xxx years and authors fix xxx hod83 andrew hodges alan turing the enigma burnett books ltd kah91 david kahn seizing the enigma houghton mifflin kah67 kahn the codebreakers macmillan publishing history the abridged paperback edition left out most technical details the original hardcover edition is recommended koz84 kozaczuk enigma university publications of america kul76 kullback statistical methods in cryptanalysis aegean park press sin66 sinkov elementary cryptanalysis math assoc am wel82 gordon welchman the hut six story mcgraw hill yardl herbert yardley the american black chamber aegean park press books on modern methods bek82 beker piper cipher systems wiley bra88 brassard modern cryptology tutorial spinger verlag den82 denning cryptography and data security addison wesley publishing company kob89 koblitz course in number theory and cryptography springer verlag kon81 konheim cryptography primer wiley mey82 meyer and matyas cryptography new dimension in computer security wiley pat87 wayne patterson mathematical cryptology for computer scientists and mathematicians rowman littlefield pfl89 pfleeger security in computing prentice hall pri84 price davies security for computer networks wiley rue86 rueppel design and analysis of stream ciphers springer verlag sal90 saloma public key cryptography springer verlag wel88 welsh codes and cryptography claredon press survey articles ang83 angluin lichtenstein provable security in crypto systems survey yale university department of computer science bet90 beth algorithm engineering for public key algorithms ieee selected areas of communication dav83 davio goethals elements of cryptology in secure digital communications longo ed dif79 diffie hellman privacy and authentication an introduction to cryptography ieee proceedings dif88 diffie the first ten years of public key cryptography ieee proceedings fei73 feistel cryptography and computer privacy scientific american fei75 feistel notz lynn smith some cryptographic techniques for machine to machine data communications ieee ieee proceedings hel79 hellman the mathematics of public key cryptography scientific american lak83 lakshmivarahan algorithms for public key cryptosystems in advances in computers yovtis ed academic press lem79 lempel cryptology in transition computing surveys mas88 massey an introduction to contemporary cryptology ieee proceedings sim91 simmons ed contemporary cryptology the science of information integrity ieee press reference articles and83 andelman reeds on the cryptanalysis of rotor and substitution permutation networks ieee trans on inform theory ben87 john bennett analysis of the encryption algorithm used in the wordperfect word processing program cryptologia ber91 bergen and caelli file security in wordperfect cryptologia january bih91 biham and shamir differential cryptanalysis of des like cryptosystems journal of cryptology vol bi91a biham shamir differential cryptanalysis of snefru khafre redoc ii loki and lucifer in proceedings of crypto ed by feigenbaum boy89 boyar inferring sequences produced by pseudo random number generators journal of the acm bri86 brickell moore purtill structure in the boxes of des in proceedings of crypto odlyzko ed bro89 brown proposed design for an extended des computer security in the computer age elsevier science publishers north holland ifip caelli ed bro90 brown pieprzyk seberry loki cryptographic primitive for authentication and secrecy applications in proceedings of austcrypt cae90 gustafson dawson caelli comparison of block ciphers in proceedings of auscrypt seberry and piepryzk eds cam93 campbell wiener proof the des is not group in proceedings of crypto ell88 carl ellison solution of the hebern messages cryptologia vol xii jul eve83 even goldreich des like functions can generate the alternating group ieee trans on inform theory vol gar91 garon outerbridge des watch an examination of the sufficiency of the data encryption standard for financial institutions in the cryptologia vol xv gil80 gillogly cryptologia gm82 shafi goldwasser silvio micali probabilistic encryption and how to play mental poker keeping secret all partial information proceedings of the fourteenth annual acm symposium on theory of computing hum83 hunter and mckenzie experiments with relaxation algorithms for breaking simple substitution ciphers computer journal kam78 kam davida structured design of substitution permutation encryption networks ieee trans information theory kin78 kinnucan data encryption gurus tuchman and meyer cryptologia vol ii xxx kru88 kruh cryptologia lai90 lai massey proposal for new block encryption standard eurocrypt lub88 rackoff luby how to construct psuedorandom permutations from psuedorandom functions siam journal of computing vol mas88 massey an introduction to contemporary cryptology ieee proceedings me91a merkle fast software encryption functions in proceedings of crypto menezes and vanstone ed mey78 meyer ciphertext plaintext and ciphertext key dependence vs number of rounds for the data encryption standard afips conference proceedings nbs77 data encryption standard national bureau of standards fips pub washington dc january ree77 reeds cracking random number generator cryptologia ree84 reeds and weinberger file security and the unix crypt command at bell laboratories technical journal vol part october sha49 shannon communication theory of secrecy systems bell system technical journal she88 kaliski rivest sherman is the data encryption standard group journal of cryptology vol shi88 shimizu miyaguchi fast data encipherment algorithm feal eurocrypt sor84 sorkin lucifer cryptographic algorithm cryptologia journals conference proceedings crypto eurocrypt ieee transactions on information theory cryptologia cryptology journal quarterly since jan cryptologia rose hulman institute of technology terre haute indiana general systems analysis history journal of cryptology international association for cryptologic research published by springer verlag quarterly since the cryptogram journal of the american cryptogram association west hickory street mundelein il primarily puzzle cryptograms of various sorts cryptosystems journal published by tony patti box newtown pa usa or tony patti cup portal com publisher comment includes complete cryptosystems with source and executable programs on diskettes tutorial the typical cryptosystems supports multi megabit keys and galois field arithmetic inexpensive hardware random number generator details computer and communication security reviews published by ross anderson sample issue available from various ftp sites including black ox ac uk editorial rja14 cl cam ac uk publisher comment we review all the conference proceedings in this field including not just crypto and eurocrypt but regional gatherings like auscrypt and chinacrypt we also abstract over journals and cover computer security as well as cryptology so readers can see the research trends in applications as well as theory other address of note aegean park press box laguna hills ca answering machine at the orange book is dod std published december as part of the rainbow book series write to department of defense national security agency attn s332 savage road fort meade md and ask for the trusted computer system evaluation criteria or call bamfd bamford the puzzle palace penguin books goo83 good good thinking the foundations of probability and its applications university of minnesota press knu81 knuth the art of computer programming volume seminumerical algorithms addison wesley kul68 soloman kullbach information theory and statistics dover yao88 yao computational information theory in complexity in information theory ed by abu mostafa how may one obtain copies of fips and ansi standards cited herein many textbooks on cryptography contain complete reprints of the fips standards which are not copyrighted the following standards may be ordered from the department of commerce national technical information service springfield va fips pub data encryption standard this is des fips pub guidelines for implementing as using the nbs des fips pub des modes of operation fips pub computer data authentication using des the following standards may be ordered from the american national standards institute sales office broadway new york ny phone ansi x3 data encryption algorithm identical to fips ansi x3 dea modes of operation identical to fips notes figure in fips pub is in error but figure in x3 is correct the text is correct in both publications electronic sources anonymous ftp ftpbk ftp uu net bsd sources usr bin des ftpcb ftp uu net usenet comp sources unix volume10 cbw ftpdf ftp funet fi pub unix security destoo tar ftpey ftp psy uq oz au pub des ftpmd rsa com ftpmr cl next3 cl msu edu pub crypt newdes tar ftpob ftp com com orange book ftppf prep ai mit edu pub lpf ftppk ucsd edu hamradio packet tcpip crypto des tar ftprf nic merit edu documents rfc ftpsf beta xerox com pub hash ftpso chalmers se pub des des tar ftpuf ftp uu net usenet comp sources unix volume28 ufc crypt ftpwp garbo uwasa fi pc util wppass2 zip rfcs available from ftprf kaliski privacy enhancement for internet electronic mail part iv key certification and related services february format txt bytes balenson privacy enhancement for internet electronic mail part iii algorithms modes and identifiers february format txt bytes obsoletes rfc kent privacy enhancement for internet electronic mail part ii certificate based key management february format txt bytes obsoletes rfc linn privacy enhancement for internet electronic mail part message encryption and authentication procedures february format txt bytes obsoletes rfc related newsgroups there are other newsgroups which sci crypt reader might want also to read some have their own faq as well alt comp compression discussion of compression algorithms and code alt security general security discussions alt security index index to alt security alt security pgp discussion of pgp alt security ripem discussion of ripem alt society civil liberty general civil liberties including privacy comp org eff news news reports from eff comp org eff talk discussion of eff related issues comp patents discussion of patents including rsa comp risks some mention of crypto and wiretapping comp society privacy general privacy issues comp security announce announcements of security holes misc legal computing sci math general math discussion xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp org eff talk sci crypt alt flame newsgroups comp org eff talk sci crypt alt flame path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu moe ksu ksu edu usenet feed umr edu ckincy from ckincy cs umr edu charles kincy subject bob putz cain was pgp and other bs references apr16 umr edu apr16 natasha portal com date sat apr gmt nntp posting host next7 cs umr edu organization university of missouri rolla rolla mo sender cnews umr edu umr usenet news post message id apr17 umr edu lines in article apr16 natasha portal com bob natasha portal com bob cain writes charles kincy ckincy cs umr edu wrote in article apr16 natasha portal com bob natasha portal com bob cain writes oh see flame someone tell them that they are immature tell them they are wrong and then don offer any proof for your assertions you really are putz put up or shut up will provide any proof you wish in private name it dickhead don bother c5j0t k52 blaze cs jhu edu has pretty much made your pathetic ass superfluous you lose pack up your bags and go home putz cain well if the shoe fits cpk xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt sci answers news answers path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen uwm edu cs utexas edu uunet noc near net pad thai aktis com pad thai aktis com not for mail from crypt comments math ncsu edu newsgroups sci crypt sci answers news answers subject cryptography faq basic cryptology followup to poster date apr organization the crypt cabal lines sender faqserv gza com approved news answers request mit edu expires may gmt message id cryptography faq part03 gza com references cryptography faq part01 gza com reply to crypt comments math ncsu edu nntp posting host pad thai aktis com summary part of of the sci crypt faq basic cryptology definitions of basic terms beginner references cryptanalysis and theoretical practical strength of ciphers last updated archive name cryptography faq part03 last modified faq for sci crypt part basic cryptology this is the third of ten parts of the sci crypt faq the parts are mostly independent but you should read the first part before the rest we don have the time to send out missing parts by mail so don ask notes such as kah67 refer to the reference list in the last part the sections of this faq are available via anonymous ftp to rtfm mit edu as pub usenet news answers cryptography faq part xx the cryptography faq is posted to the newsgroups sci crypt sci answers and news answers every days contents what is cryptology cryptography plaintext ciphertext encryption key what references can start with to learn cryptology how does one go about cryptanalysis what is brute force search and what is its cryptographic relevance what are some properties satisfied by every strong cryptosystem if cryptosystem is theoretically unbreakable then is it guaranteed analysis proof in practice why are many people still using cryptosystems that are relatively easy to break what is cryptology cryptography plaintext ciphertext encryption key the story begins when julius caesar sent messages to his trusted acquaintances he didn trust the messengers so he replaced every by every by and so on through the alphabet only someone who knew the shift by rule could decipher his messages cryptosystem or cipher system is method of disguising messages so that only certain people can see through the disguise cryptography is the art of creating and using cryptosystems cryptanalysis is the art of breaking cryptosystems seeing through the disguise even when you re not supposed to be able to cryptology is the study of both cryptography and cryptanalysis the original message is called plaintext the disguised message is called ciphertext encryption means any procedure to convert plaintext into ciphertext decryption means any procedure to convert ciphertext into plaintext cryptosystem is usually whole collection of algorithms the algorithms are labelled the labels are called keys for instance caesar probably used shift by encryption for several different values of it natural to say that is the key here the people who are supposed to be able to see through the disguise are called recipients other people are enemies opponents interlopers eavesdroppers or third parties what references can start with to learn cryptology for an introduction to technical matter the survey articles given in part are the best place to begin as they are in general concise authored by competent people and well written however these articles are mostly concerned with cryptology as it has developed in the last years or so and are more abstract and mathematical than historical the codebreakers by kahn kah67 is encyclopedic in its history and technical detail of cryptology up to the mid introductory cryptanalysis can be learned from gaines gai44 or sinkov sin66 this is recommended especially for people who want to devise their own encryption algorithms since it is common mistake to try to make system before knowing how to break one the selection of an algorithm for the des drew the attention of many public researchers to problems in cryptology consequently several textbooks and books to serve as texts have appeared the book of denning den82 gives good introduction to broad range of security including encryption algorithms database security access control and formal models of security similar comments apply to the books of price davies pri84 and pfleeger pfl89 the books of konheim kon81 and meyer matyas mey82 are quite technical books both konheim and meyer were directly involved in the development of des and both books give thorough analysis of des konheim book is quite mathematical with detailed analyses of many classical cryptosystems meyer and matyas concentrate on modern cryptographic methods especially pertaining to key management and the integration of security facilities into computer systems and networks the books of rueppel rue86 and koblitz kob89 concentrate on the application of number theory and algebra to cryptography how does one go about cryptanalysis classical cryptanalysis involves an interesting combination of analytical reasoning application of mathematical tools pattern finding patience determination and luck the best available textbooks on the subject are the military cryptanalytics series frie1 it is clear that proficiency in cryptanalysis is for the most part gained through the attempted solution of given systems such experience is considered so valuable that some of the cryptanalyses performed during wwii by the allies are still classified modern public key cryptanalysis may consist of factoring an integer or taking discrete logarithm these are not the traditional fare of the cryptanalyst computational number theorists are some of the most successful cryptanalysts against public key systems what is brute force search and what is its cryptographic relevance in nutshell if and you know and can compute you can find by trying every possible that brute force search example say cryptanalyst has found plaintext and corresponding ciphertext but doesn know the key he can simply try encrypting the plaintext using each possible key until the ciphertext matches or decrypting the ciphertext to match the plaintext whichever is faster every well designed cryptosystem has such large key space that this brute force search is impractical advances in technology sometimes change what is considered practical for example des which has been in use for over years now has or about possible keys computation with this many operations was certainly unlikely for most users in the mid the situation is very different today given the dramatic decrease in cost per processor operation massively parallel machines threaten the security of des against brute force search some scenarios are described by garron and outerbridge gar91 one phase of more sophisticated cryptanalysis may involve brute force search of some manageably small space of possibilities what are some properties satisfied by every strong cryptosystem the security of strong system resides with the secrecy of the key rather than with an attempt to keep the algorithm itself secret strong cryptosystem has large keyspace as mentioned above the unicity distance is measure which gives the minimum amount of ciphertext that must be intercepted to uniquely identify the key and if for some key the unicity distance is much longer than the amount of ciphertext you intend to encrypt under that key the system is probably strong strong cryptosystem will certainly produce ciphertext which appears random to all standard statistical tests see for example cae90 strong cryptosystem will resist all known previous attacks system which has never been subjected to scrutiny is suspect if system passes all the tests mentioned above is it necessarily strong certainly not many weak cryptosystems looked good at first however sometimes it is possible to show that cryptosystem is strong by mathematical proof if joe can break this system then he can also solve the well known difficult problem of factoring integers see part failing that it crap shoot if cryptosystem is theoretically unbreakable then is it guaranteed analysis proof in practice cryptanalytic methods include what is known as practical cryptanalysis the enemy doesn have to just stare at your ciphertext until he figures out the plaintext for instance he might assume cribs stretches of probable plaintext if the crib is correct then he might be able to deduce the key and then decipher the rest of the message or he might exploit isologs the same plaintext enciphered in several cryptosystems or several keys thus he might obtain solutions even when cryptanalytic theory says he doesn have chance sometimes cryptosystems malfunction or are misused the one time pad for example loses all security if it is used more than once even chosen plaintext attacks where the enemy somehow feeds plaintext into the encryptor until he can deduce the key have been employed see kah67 why are many people still using cryptosystems that are relatively easy to break some don know any better often amateurs think they can design secure systems and are not aware of what an expert cryptanalyst could do and sometimes there is insufficient motivation for anybody to invest the work needed to crack system newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen malgudi oar net zaphod mps ohio state edu swrinde emory news feed peachnet edu umn edu csus edu netcom com strnlght from strnlght netcom com david sternlight subject re an open letter to mr clinton message id strnlghtc5m2cv hx netcom com organization dsi uscrpac references apr16 yuma acns colostate edu date sat apr gmt lines here simple way to convert the clipper proposal to an unexceptionable one make it voluntary that is you get high quality secure nsa classified technology if you agree to escrow your key otherwise you are on your own david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl netcomsv netcom com tcmay from tcmay netcom com timothy may subject re once tapped your code is no good any more message id tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com organization netcom on line communication services guest newsreader tin pl5 references apr17 clarinet com distribution na date sat apr gmt lines brad templeton brad clarinet com wrote it occurs to me that if they get wiretap order on you and the escrow houses release your code to the cops your code is now no longer secure it in the hands of cops and while am sure most of the time they are good their security will not be as good as the escrow houses what this effectively means is that if they perform wiretap on you at the end of the wiretap they should be obligated to inform you that tap was performed and replace for free the clipper chip in your cellular phone so that it is once again code known only to the escrow houses getting the court order to reveal the key also makes decipherable all past conversations which may be on tape or disk or whatver as understand the proposal could be wrong but ve seen no mention of session keys being the escrowed entities as the eff noted this raises further issues about the fruits of one bust leading to incrimination in other areas but is it any worse than the current unsecure system it becomes much worse of course if the government then uses this clinton clipper to argue for restrictions on unapproved encryption this is the main concern of most of us think the camel nose in the tent etc and it may also become much worse if the ostensible security is increased thus allowing greater access to central office records by the government the conversations being encrypted who will object to letting the government have access to them perhaps even automatically archiving large fractions this was one of the main objections to the proposal that it would force telecom suppliers to provide easy access for the government one the government has had access to months or years of your encrypted conversations now all it takes is one misstep one violation that gets them the paperwork needed to decrypt all of them do we want anyone to have this kind of power tim may whose sig block may get him busted in the new regime timothy may crypto anarchy encryption digital money tcmay netcom com anonymous networks digital pseudonyms zero knowledge reputations information markets aptos ca black markets collapse of governments higher power public key pgp and mailsafe available xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt sci answers news answers path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu cs utexas edu uunet noc near net pad thai aktis com pad thai aktis com not for mail from crypt comments math ncsu edu newsgroups sci crypt sci answers news answers subject cryptography faq net etiquette followup to poster date apr organization the crypt cabal lines sender faqserv gza com approved news answers request mit edu expires may gmt message id cryptography faq part02 gza com references cryptography faq part01 gza com reply to crypt comments math ncsu edu nntp posting host pad thai aktis com summary part of of the sci crypt faq net etiquette related newsgroups appropriate topics how to introduce an encryption scheme last updated archive name cryptography faq part02 last modified faq for sci crypt part net etiquette this is the second of ten parts of the sci crypt faq the parts are mostly independent but you should read the first part before the rest we don have the time to send out missing parts by mail so don ask notes such as kah67 refer to the reference list in the last part the sections of this faq are available via anonymous ftp to rtfm mit edu as pub usenet news answers cryptography faq part xx the cryptography faq is posted to the newsgroups sci crypt sci answers and news answers every days contents what groups are around what faq who am why am here do political discussions belong in sci crypt how do present new encryption scheme in sci crypt what groups are around what faq who am why am here read news announce newusers and news answers for few weeks always make sure to read newsgroup for some time before you post to it you ll be amazed how often the same question can be asked in the same newsgroup after month you ll have much better sense of what the readers want to see do political discussions belong in sci crypt no in fact some newsgroups notably misc legal computing were created exactly so that political questions like should rsa be patented don get in the way of technical discussions many sci crypt readers also read misc legal computing comp org eff talk comp patents sci math comp compression et al for the benefit of people who don care about those other topics try to put your postings in the right group questions about microfilm and smuggling and other non cryptographic spy stuff don belong in sci crypt either how do present new encryption scheme in sci crypt just came up with this neat method of encryption here some ciphertext fhdsijoyw ogbujhkfsyuire is it strong without doubt questions like this are the most annoying traffic on sci crypt if you have come up with an encryption scheme providing some ciphertext from it is not adequate nobody has ever been impressed by random gibberish any new algorithm should be secure even if the opponent knows the full algorithm including how any message key is distributed and only the private key is kept secret there are some systematic and unsystematic ways to take reasonably long ciphertexts and decrypt them even without prior knowledge of the algorithm but this is time consuming and possibly fruitless exercise which most sci crypt readers won bother with so what do you do if you have new encryption scheme first of all find out if it really new look through this faq for references and related methods familiarize yourself with the literature and the introductory textbooks when you can appreciate how your cryptosystem fits into the world at large try to break it yourself you shouldn waste the time of tens of thousands of readers asking question which you could have easily answered on your own if you really think your system is secure and you want to get some reassurance from experts you might try posting full details of your system including working code and solid theoretical explanation to sci crypt keep in mind that the export of cryptography is regulated in some areas if you re lucky an expert might take some interest in what you posted you can encourage this by offering cash rewards for instance noted cryptographer ralph merkle is offering to anyone who can break snefru but there are no guarantees if you don have enough experience then most likely any experts who look at your system will be able to find flaw if this happens it your responsibility to consider the flaw and learn from it rather than just add one more layer of complication and come back for another round different way to get your cryptosystem reviewed is to have the nsa look at it full discussion of this procedure is outside the scope of this faq among professionals common rule of thumb is that if you want to design cryptosystem you have to have experience as cryptanalyst xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt sci answers news answers path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu usc cs utexas edu uunet noc near net pad thai aktis com pad thai aktis com not for mail from crypt comments math ncsu edu newsgroups sci crypt sci answers news answers subject cryptography faq product ciphers followup to poster date apr organization the crypt cabal lines sender faqserv gza com approved news answers request mit edu expires may gmt message id cryptography faq part05 gza com references cryptography faq part01 gza com reply to crypt comments math ncsu edu nntp posting host pad thai aktis com summary part of of the sci crypt faq product ciphers theory and security of product ciphers differential cryptanalysis des encryption standard nsa role in des design des hardware and software availability last updated archive name cryptography faq part05 last modified faq for sci crypt part product ciphers this is the fifth of ten parts of the sci crypt faq the parts are mostly independent but you should read the first part before the rest we don have the time to send out missing parts by mail so don ask notes such as kah67 refer to the reference list in the last part the sections of this faq are available via anonymous ftp to rtfm mit edu as pub usenet news answers cryptography faq part xx the cryptography faq is posted to the newsgroups sci crypt sci answers and news answers every days contents what is product cipher what makes product cipher secure what are some group theoretic properties of product ciphers what can be proven about the security of product cipher how are block ciphers used to encrypt data longer than the block size can symmetric block ciphers be used for message authentication what exactly is des what is triple des what is differential cryptanalysis how was nsa involved in the design of des is des available in software is des available in hardware can des be used to protect classified information what are ecb cbc cfb and ofb encryption what is product cipher product cipher is block cipher that iterates several weak operations such as substitution transposition modular addition multiplication and linear transformation block cipher just means cipher that encrypts block of data bytes say all at once then goes on to the next block the notion of product ciphers is due to shannon sha49 examples of modern product ciphers include lucifer sor84 des nbs77 sp networks kam78 loki bro90 feal shi84 pes lai90 khufu and khafre me91a the so called feistel ciphers are class of product ciphers which operate on one half of the ciphertext at each round and then swap the ciphertext halves after each round lucifer des loki and feal are examples of feistel ciphers the following table compares the main parameters of several product ciphers cipher block length key bits number of rounds lucifer des loki feal pes what makes product cipher secure nobody knows how to prove mathematically that product cipher is completely secure so in practice one begins by demonstrating that the cipher looks highly random for example the cipher must be nonlinear and it must produce ciphertext which functionally depends on every bit of the plaintext and the key meyer mey78 has shown that at least rounds of des are required to guarantee such dependence in this sense product cipher should act as mixing function which combines the plaintext key and ciphertext in complex nonlinear fashion the fixed per round substitutions of the product cipher are referred to as boxes for example lucifer has boxes and des has boxes the nonlinearity of product cipher reduces to careful design of these boxes list of partial design criteria for the boxes of des which apply to boxes in general may be found in brown bro89 and brickell et al bri86 what are some group theoretic properties of product ciphers let be product cipher that maps bit blocks to bit blocks let be the encryption of under key then for any fixed the map sending to is permutation of the set of bit blocks denote this permutation by the set of all bit permutations is called the symmetric group and is written the collection of all these permutations where ranges over all possible keys is denoted if were random mapping from plaintexts to ciphertexts then we would expect to generate large subset of coppersmith and grossman cop74 have shown that very simple product cipher can generate the alternating group given sufficient number of rounds the alternating group is half of the symmetric group it consists of all even permutations all permutations which can be written as an even number of swaps even and goldreich eve83 were able to extend these results to show that feistel ciphers can generate given sufficient number of rounds the security of multiple encipherment also depends on the group theoretic properties of cipher multiple encipherment is an extension over single encipherment if for keys k1 k2 there does not exist third key k3 such that k2 k1 k3 which indicates that encrypting twice with two independent keys k1 k2 is equal to single encryption under the third key k3 if for every k1 k2 there exists k3 such that eq is true then we say that is group this question of whether des is group under this definition was extensively studied by sherman kaliski and rivest she88 in their paper they give strong evidence for the hypothesis that des is not group in fact des is not group cam93 what can be proven about the security of product cipher recall from above that is permutation produced by under some key the goal of the designer of is to ensure that appears to be random element of the symmetric group let be an element of selected randomly we will say that and are indistinguishable if an observer given and in some order cannot distinguish between these two permutations in polynomial time that is with time bounded resources the observer cannot determine which of the permutations is produced by the optimal decision is no better than simply guessing luby and rackoff lub88 have shown that class of feistel ciphers are secure in this sense when the round mapping is replaced by random boolean functions how are block ciphers used to encrypt data longer than the block size there are four standard modes of operation and numerous non standard ones as well the standard modes of operation are defined in the department of commerce federal information processing standard fips published in see the question about ecb below for more details although they are defined for the des block cipher the modes of operation can be used with any block cipher can symmetric block ciphers be used for message authentication one may use symmetric cryptosystem block cipher to prove to himself that he did or did not generate message and to prove to himself whether his message was altered or unaltered since generation but one cannot prove these things to another without revealing the key and thereafter that key cannot be used to prove anything about any messages that were authenticated using that key see ansi x3 and fips for standard method of message authentication using des what exactly is des des is the government data encryption standard product cipher that operates on bit blocks of data using bit key it is defined in fips which supersedes fips fips are federal information processing standards published by ntis des is identical to the ansi standard data encryption algorithm dea defined in ansi x3 what is triple des triple des is product cipher which like des operates on bit data blocks there are several forms each of which uses the des cipher times some forms use two bit keys some use three the des modes of operation may also be used with triple des some people refer to k1 k2 k1 as triple des this method is defined in chapter of the ansi standard x9 financial institution key management and is intended for use in encrypting des keys and ivs for automated key distribution its formal name is encryption and decryption of single key by key pair but it is referenced in other standards documents as ede that standard says section key encrypting keys may be single dea key or dea key pair key pairs shoud be used where additional security is needed the data protected by the key has long security life key pair shall not be encrypted or decrypted using single key others use the term triple des for k1 k2 k3 or k1 k2 k3 one of us carl ellison keeps advocating des triple use in the form k1 tran k2 tran k3 compress where each des instance has its own key and iv for cbc mode and tran has been posted on sci crypt it is large block transposition program taking its key from the data stream itself so that it is not an encryption program on its own part what is differential cryptanalysis differential cryptanalysis is statistical attack that can be applied to any iterated mapping ie any mapping which is based on repeated round function the method was recently popularized by biham and shamir bih91 but coppersmith has remarked that the boxes of des were optimized against this attack some years ago this method has proved effective against several product ciphers notably feal bi91a differential cryptanalysis is based on observing large number of ciphertexts whose corresponding plaintexts satisfy known difference where is componentwise xor in the basic biham shamir attack such plaintext pairs are required to determine the key for des substantially fewer pairs are required if des is truncated to or rounds in these cases the actual key can be recovered in matter of minutes using few thousand pairs for full des this attack is impractical because it requires so many known plaintexts the work of biham and shamir on des revealed several startling observations on the algorithm most importantly if the key schedule was removed from des and bit key was used the key could be recovered in less than steps thus independent subkeys do not add substantial security to des further the boxes of des are extremely sensitive in that changing even single entries in these tables yields significant improvement in the differential attack adi shamir is quoted to say nytimes oct would say that contrary to what some people believe there is no evidence of tampering with the des so that the basic design was weakened how was nsa involved in the design of des according to kinnucan kin78 tuchman member of the group that developed des at ibm is quoted as saying we developed the des algorithm entirely within ibm using ibmers the nsa did not dictate single wire tuchman and meyer another developer of des spent year breaking ciphers and finding weaknesses in lucifer they then spent two years strengthening lucifer their basic approach was to look for strong substitution permutation and key scheduling functions ibm has classified the notes containing the selection criteria at the request of the nsa the nsa told us we had inadvertently reinvented some of the deep secrets it uses to make its own algorithms explains tuchman on the other hand document called involvement of the nsa in the development of des unclassified summary of the united states select committee on intelligence printed in the ieee communications magazine p53 states in the development of des nsa convinced ibm that reduced keysize was sufficient indirectly assisted in the development of the box structures and certified that the final des algorithm was to the best of their knowledge free from any statistical or mathematical weakness clearly the key size was reduced at the insistence of the nsa the article further states that the nsa did not tamper with the algorithm itself just the parameters which in some sense resolves the apparent conflict in the remarks of meyer and tuchman presented above is des available in software several people have made des code available via ftp see part for pathnames stig ostholm ftpso bsd ftpbk eric young ftpey dennis furguson ftpdf mark riordan ftpmr phil karn ftppk pascal listing of des is also given in patterson pat87 fips says the algorithm specified in this standard is to be implemented using hardware not software technology software implementations in general purpose computers are not in compliance with this standard despite this software implementations abound and are used by government agencies is des available in hardware the following paragraphs are quoted from messages sent to the editors we don vouch for the quality or even existence of the products chip rosenthal says dallas semiconductor makes des encryption decryption device for use on standard digital kbps pcm telecom data streams it is capable of processing data in real time one sample frame it is the ds2160 their phone number is you would probably need to talk with dewight in telecom marketing christian franke franke informatik rwth aachen de says cryptech cry12c102 mbit according to data sheet with bit interface we use this one because it was the only one available when we started the project no problems pijnenburg pcc100 mbit according to data sheet address pijnenburg boxtelswweg nl ne vught the netherlands infosys des chip germany boxes must be loaded by software so you can modify the algorithm sorry don have the data sheet handy please mail me if you need further information mjr tis com marcus ranum says supercrypt mb sec and faster des and proprietary storage for bit keys key stream generator integrated hardware des3 procedure extended mode with bit keys computer elektronik infosys herndon parkway herndon va thember gandalf ca tim hember says newbridge microsystems sells an am9568 compatible des chip that operates at mhz performs round of encryption in clocks has three stage pipeline supports ecb cbc cfb and cfb further it is very reasonable priced as opposed to other high end des chips call newbridge microsystems ottawa there are no import export issues with canada and the us if you require custom des or public key ics then timestep engineering developed newbridge crypto chips and ics for other commercial and educational establishments they can be reached at can des be used to protect classified information des is not intended to protect classified data fips says this standard will be used by federal departments and agencies for the cryptographic protection of computer data when the following conditions apply cryptographic protection is required and the data is not classified according to the national security act of as amended or the atomic energy act of as amended what are ecb cbc cfb and ofb encryption these are methods for using block ciphers such as des to encrypt messages files and blocks of data known as modes of operation four modes of operation are defined in fips december and also in ansi x3 fips specifies that when bit ascii data is sent in octets the unused most significant bit is to be set to fips also specifies the padding for short blocks the four des modes of operation are electronic code book ecb cipher block chaining cbc bit cipher feedback cfb and bit output feedback ofb these methods are explained below in language like notation some symbols the th block of plaintext input to encryption output from decryption size of block determined by the mode the th block of ciphertext output from encryption input to decryption size of block determined by the mode the des encryption function performed on bit block using the key schedule derived from some bit key the des decryption function performed on bit block using the same key schedule as in except that the keys in the schedule are used in the opposite order as in iv bit initialization vector secret value which along with the key is shared by both encryptor and decryptor the th value of bit variable used in some modes the th value of bit variable used in some modes lsb the least significant right most bits of msb the most significant left most bits of operators as defined in the langage electronic code book ecb and are each bits long encryption decryption cipher block chaining cbc and are each bits long encryption decryption iv iv bit cipher feedback cfb and are each bits long encryption decryption iv iv all msb msb all note that for this reduces to iv iv all all cfb notes since depends only on the plain or cipher text from the previous operation the function can be performed in parallel with the reception of the text with which it is used bit output feedback ofb and are each bits long encryption decryption iv iv all msb msb all note that for this reduces to iv iv all all ofb notes encryption and decryption are identical since is independent of and the function can be performed in advance of the receipt of the plain cipher text with which it is to be used additional notes on des modes of operation ecb and cbc use to encrypt and to decrypt but the feedback modes use to both encrypt and decrypt this disproves the erroneous claim that systems which feature but not cannot be used for data confidentiality and therefore are not subject to export controls xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt sci answers news answers path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu cs utexas edu uunet noc near net pad thai aktis com pad thai aktis com not for mail from crypt comments math ncsu edu newsgroups sci crypt sci answers news answers subject cryptography faq public key cryptography followup to poster date apr organization the crypt cabal lines sender faqserv gza com approved news answers request mit edu expires may gmt message id cryptography faq part06 gza com references cryptography faq part01 gza com reply to crypt comments math ncsu edu nntp posting host pad thai aktis com summary part of of the sci crypt faq public key cryptography basics of public key cryptography the rsa version its security speed of factoring other approaches last updated archive name cryptography faq part06 last modified faq for sci crypt part public key cryptography this is the sixth of ten parts of the sci crypt faq the parts are mostly independent but you should read the first part before the rest we don have the time to send out missing parts by mail so don ask notes such as kah67 refer to the reference list in the last part the sections of this faq are available via anonymous ftp to rtfm mit edu as pub usenet news answers cryptography faq part xx the cryptography faq is posted to the newsgroups sci crypt sci answers and news answers every days contents what is public key cryptography what rsa is rsa secure how fast can people factor numbers what about other public key cryptosystems what is public key cryptography in classic cryptosystem we have encryption functions and decryption functions such that for any plaintext in public key cryptosystem can be easily computed from some public key which in turn is computed from is published so that anyone can encrypt messages if cannot be easily computed from then only the person who generated can decrypt messages that the essence of public key cryptography published by diffie and hellman in in classic cryptosystem if you want your friends to be able to send secret messages to you you have to make sure nobody other than them sees the key in public key cryptosystem you just publish and you don have to worry about spies this is only the beginning of public key cryptography there is an extensive literature on security models for public key cryptography applications of public key cryptography other applications of the mathematical technology behind public key cryptography and so on what rsa rsa is public key cryptosystem defined by rivest shamir and adleman for full details there is faq available by ftp at rsa com here small example plaintexts are positive integers up to keys are quadruples with bit prime number bit prime number and and large numbers with de divisible by we define mod pq mod pq now is easily computed from the pair pq but as far as anyone knows there is no easy way to compute from the pair pq so whoever generates can publish pq anyone can send secret message to him he is the only one who can read the messages is rsa secure nobody knows an obvious attack on rsa is to factor pq into and see below for comments on how fast state of the art factorization algorithms run unfortunately nobody has the slightest idea how to prove that factorization or any realistic problem at all for that matter is inherently slow it is easy to formalize what we mean by rsa is isn strong but as hendrik lenstra jr says exact definitions appear to be necessary only when one wishes to prove that algorithms with certain properties do not exist and theoretical computer science is notoriously lacking in such negative results how fast can people factor numbers it depends on the size of the numbers in october arjen lenstra and dan bernstein factored into primes using about three weeks of maspar time the maspar is processor simd machine each processor can add about integers per second the algorithm there is called the number field sieve it is quite bit faster for special numbers like than for general numbers but it takes time only about exp log log log in any case an older and more popular method for smaller numbers is the multiple polynomial quadratic sieve which takes time exp log log log faster than the number field sieve for small but slower for large the breakeven point is somewhere between and digits depending on the implementations factorization is fast moving field the state of the art just few years ago was nowhere near as good as it is now if no new methods are developed then bit rsa keys will always be safe from factorization but one can predict the future before the number field sieve was found many people conjectured that the quadratic sieve was asymptotically as fast as any factoring method could be what about other public key cryptosystems we ve talked about rsa because it well known and easy to describe but there are lots of other public key systems around many of which are faster than rsa or depend on problems more widely believed to be difficult this has been just brief introduction if you really want to learn about the many facets of public key cryptography consult the books and journal articles listed in part xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt sci answers news answers path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu cs utexas edu uunet noc near net pad thai aktis com pad thai aktis com not for mail from crypt comments math ncsu edu newsgroups sci crypt sci answers news answers subject cryptography faq digital signatures followup to poster date apr organization the crypt cabal lines sender faqserv gza com approved news answers request mit edu expires may gmt message id cryptography faq part07 gza com references cryptography faq part01 gza com reply to crypt comments math ncsu edu nntp posting host pad thai aktis com summary part of of the sci crypt faq digital signatures and hash functions theory of one way hash functions distinctions of terms md4 and md5 snefru last updated archive name cryptography faq part07 last modified faq for sci crypt part digital signatures and hash functions this is the seventh of ten parts of the sci crypt faq the parts are mostly independent but you should read the first part before the rest we don have the time to send out missing parts by mail so don ask notes such as kah67 refer to the reference list in the last part the sections of this faq are available via anonymous ftp to rtfm mit edu as pub usenet news answers cryptography faq part xx the cryptography faq is posted to the newsgroups sci crypt sci answers and news answers every days contents what is one way hash function what is the difference between public private secret shared etc what are md4 and md5 what is snefru what is one way hash function typical one way hash function takes variable length message and produces fixed length hash given the hash it is computationally impossible to find message with that hash in fact one can determine any usable information about message with that hash not even single bit for some one way hash functions it also computationally impossible to determine two messages which produce the same hash one way hash function can be private or public just like an encryption function here one application of public one way hash function like md5 or snefru most public key signature systems are relatively slow to sign long message may take longer than the user is willing to wait solution compute the one way hash of the message and sign the hash which is short now anyone who wants to verify the signature can do the same thing another name for one way hash function is message digest function what is the difference between public private secret shared etc there is horrendous mishmash of terminology in the literature for very small set of concepts when an algorithm depends on key which isn published we call it private algorithm otherwise we call it public algorithm we have encryption functions and decryption functions so that for any message we also have hashing functions and verification functions such that if and only if public key cryptosystem has public encryption and private decryption checksums such as the application mentioned in the previous question have public hashing and public verification digital signature functions have private hashing and public verification only one person can produce the hash for message but everyone can verify that the hash is correct obviously when an algorithm depends on private key it meant to be unusable by anyone who doesn have the key there no real difference between shared key and private key shared key isn published so it private if you encrypt data for friend rather than for your eyes only are you suddenly doing shared key encryption rather than private key encryption no what are md4 and md5 md4 and md5 are message digest functions developed by ron rivest definitions appear in rfc and rfc see part code is available from ftpmd note that transcription error was found in the original md5 draft rfc the corrected algorithm should be called md5a though some people refer to it as md5 what is snefru snefru is family of message digest functions developed by ralph merkle snefru is an round function the newest in the family definitions appear in merkle paper me91a code is available from ftpsf xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt sci answers news answers path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu usc cs utexas edu uunet noc near net pad thai aktis com pad thai aktis com not for mail from crypt comments math ncsu edu newsgroups sci crypt sci answers news answers subject cryptography faq other miscellany followup to poster date apr organization the crypt cabal lines sender faqserv gza com approved news answers request mit edu expires may gmt message id cryptography faq part09 gza com references cryptography faq part01 gza com reply to crypt comments math ncsu edu nntp posting host pad thai aktis com summary part of of the sci crypt faq other miscellany national security agency us export restrictions tempest electromagnetic interference monitoring beale ciphers hoax american cryptographic association rsa public key patents last updated archive name cryptography faq part09 last modified faq for sci crypt part other miscellany this is the ninth of ten parts of the sci crypt faq the parts are mostly independent but you should read the first part before the rest we don have the time to send out missing parts by mail so don ask notes such as kah67 refer to the reference list in the last part the sections of this faq are available via anonymous ftp to rtfm mit edu as pub usenet news answers cryptography faq part xx the cryptography faq is posted to the newsgroups sci crypt sci answers and news answers every days contents what is the national security agency nsa what are the us export regulations what is tempest what are the beale ciphers and are they hoax what is the american cryptogram association and how do get in touch is rsa patented what about the voynich manuscript what is the national security agency nsa the nsa is the official security body of the government it was given its charter by president truman in the late and has continued research in cryptology till the present the nsa is known to be the largest employer of mathematicians in the world and is also the largest purchaser of computer hardware in the world governments in general have always been prime employers of cryptologists the nsa probably possesses cryptographic expertise many years ahead of the public state of the art and can undoubtedly break many of the systems used in practice but for reasons of national security almost all information about the nsa is classified bamford book bamfd gives history of the people and operations of the nsa the following quote from massey mas88 highlights the difference between public and private research in cryptography if one regards cryptology as the prerogative of government one accepts that most cryptologic research will be conducted behind closed doors without doubt the number of workers engaged today in such secret research in cryptology far exceeds that of those engaged in open research in cryptology for only about years has there in fact been widespread open research in cryptology there have been and will continue to be conflicts between these two research communities open research is common quest for knowledge that depends for its vitality on the open exchange of ideas via conference presentations and publications in scholarly journals but can government agency charged with responsibilities of breaking the ciphers of other nations countenance the publication of cipher that it cannot break can researcher in good conscience publish such cipher that might undermine the effectiveness of his own government code breakers one might argue that publication of provably secure cipher would force all governments to behave like stimson gentlemen but one must be aware that open research in cryptography is fraught with political and ethical considerations of severity than in most scientific fields the wonder is not that some conflicts have occurred between government agencies and open researchers in cryptology but rather that these conflicts at least those of which we are aware have been so few and so mild what are the us export regulations in nutshell there are two government agencies which control export of encryption software one is the bureau of export administration bxa in the department of commerce authorized by the export administration regulations ear another is the office of defense trade controls dtc in the state department authorized by the international traffic in arms regulations itar as rule of thumb bxa which works with cocom has less stringent requirements but dtc which takes orders from nsa wants to see everything first and can refuse to transfer jurisdiction to bxa the newsgroup misc legal computing carries many interesting discussions on the laws surrounding cryptographic export what people think about those laws and many other complex issues which go beyond the scope of technical groups like sci crypt make sure to consult your lawyer before doing anything which will get you thrown in jail if you are lucky your lawyer might know lawyer who has at least heard of the itar what is tempest tempest is standard for electromagnetic shielding for computer equipment it was created in response to the discovery that information can be read from computer radiation from crt at quite distance and with little effort needless to say encryption doesn do much good if the cleartext is available this way what are the beale ciphers and are they hoax thanks to jim gillogly for this information and john king for corrections the story in pamphlet by ward goes thomas jefferson beale and party of adventurers accumulated huge mass of treasure and buried it in bedford county virginia leaving three ciphers with an innkeeper the ciphers describe the location contents and intended beneficiaries of the treasure ward gives decryption of the second cipher contents called b2 it was encrypted as book cipher using the initial letters of the declaration of independence doi as key b1 and b3 are unsolved many documents have been tried as the key to b1 aficionados can join group that attempts to solve b1 by various means with an eye toward splitting the treasure the beale cypher association box beaver falls pa you can get the ciphers from the rec puzzles faql by including the line send index in message to netlib peregrine com and following the directions there are apparently several different versions of the cipher floating around the correct version is based on the pamphlet says john king kingj hpcc01 corp hp com some believe the story is hoax kruh kru88 gives long list of problems with the story gillogly gil80 decrypted b1 with the doi and found some unexpected strings including abfdefghiijklmmnohpp hammer president of the beale cypher association agrees that this string couldn appear by chance but feels there must be an explanation gwyn sci crypt expert is unimpressed with this string what is the american cryptogram association and how do get in touch the aca is an organization devoted to cryptography with an emphasis on cryptanalysis of systems that can be attacked either with pencil and paper or computers its organ the cryptogram includes articles and challenge ciphers among the more than cipher types in english and other languages are simple substitution playfair vigenere bifid bazeries grille homophonic and cryptarithm dues are for one year issues more outside of north america less for students under and seniors subscriptions should be sent to aca treasurer west hickory st mundelein il is rsa patented yes the patent number is filed granted for further discussion of this patent whether it should have been granted algorithm patents in general and related legal and moral issues see comp patents and misc legal computing for information about the league for programming freedom see ftppf note that one of the original purposes of comp patents was to collect questions such as should rsa be patented which often flooded sci crypt and other technical newsgroups into more appropriate forum what about the voynich manuscript nelson reed edu nelson minar says there is mailing list on the subject the address to write to subscribe to the vms mailing list is voynich request rand org the ftp archive is rand org pub voynich there all sorts of information about the manuscript itself of course good bibliography can be found on the ftp site kahn the codebreakers gives good introduction xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp org eff talk sci crypt newsgroups comp org eff talk sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu usc venice gumby dsd trw com trwacs fp trw com trwacs johnson from johnson trwacs fp trw com steve johnson subject re how do they know what keys to ask for re clipper message id johnson trwacs organization trw systems division fairfax va references apr16 umr edu apr16 natasha portal com apr16 fsl noaa gov apr17 clarinet com date sat apr gmt lines brad clarinet com brad templeton writes and of course you have to identify yourself to the phone company and since the phone company complies with court orders they will know the magic number of your chip when they sign out warrant on you and then can present the warrant to the key escrow house who makes them forget and destroy all copies of the key once they ve decided you re not criminal today just curious brad templeton clarinet communications corp sunnyvale ca any views expressed are those of myself and not my employer steven johnson wb3iru vk2gds trw johnson trwacs fp trw com fp1 federal systems park drive phone fairfax virginia fax any views expressed are those of myself and not my employer steven johnson wb3iru vk2gds trw johnson trwacs fp trw com fp1 path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel news intercon com psinntp internet sbi zeuswtc pivot bet from bet sbi com bennett todd salomon brothers inc ny newsgroups sci crypt subject re source of random bits on unix workstation message id pivot sbi com date apr gmt references pivot sbi com c5ja6s a59 cs psu edu c5jp0k p5 cs columbia edu sender news pivot sbi com lines nntp posting host sandstorm for your application what you can do is to encrypt the real time clock value with secret key well almost if only had to solve the problem for myself and were willing to have to type in second password the secret key whenever logged in it could work however trying to create solution that anyone can use and which once installed is just as effortless to start up as the non solution of just using xhost to control access ve got religeous problems with storing secret keys on multiuser computers for good discussion of cryptographically good random number generators check out the draft ietf security randomness txt internet draft available at your local friendly internet drafts repository thanks for the pointer it was good reading and liked the idea of using several unrelated sources with strong mixing function however unless missed something the only source they suggested aside from hardware rng that seems available and unguessable by an intruder when unix is fresh booted is buffers related to network traffic believe my solution basically uses that strategy without requiring me to reach into the kernel reasonably source of randomness is the output of cryptographic hash function md5 when fed with large amount of more or less random data for example running md5 on dev mem is slow but random enough source of random bits there are bound to be bits of entropy in the tens or hundreds of megabytes of data in modern workstation memory as fair amount of them are system timers buffers etc heard about this solution and it sounded good then heard that folks were experiencing times of seconds to run this on reasonably configured workstations not willing to add that much delay to someone login process my approach etherfind compress skip takes second or two to run considering writing the be all and end all of solutions that launches the md5 and simultaneously tries to suck bits off the net and if the net should be sitting so idle that it can get after compression before md5 finishes use the md5 this way could have guaranteed good bits and deterministic upper bound on login time and still have the common case of login take only couple of extra seconds bennett bet sbi com xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt comp windows ms comp os msdos apps path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com elroy jpl nasa gov ames haven umd edu uunet pipex uknet uknet yorkohm minster george from george minster york ac uk newsgroups sci crypt comp windows ms comp os msdos apps subject non word password generator message id minster york ac uk date apr gmt organization department of computer science university of york england lines does anyone know of non word password generator program for pc it will produce nonsense word but still be pronouncible lisgollan wanted to force users to adopt more secure passwords but still be memorable thanks george bolt please email me as well if possible george psychmips york ac uk xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu usc elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl olivea uunet looking brad from brad clarinet com brad templeton newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee subject re once tapped your code is no good any more message id apr17 clarinet com date apr gmt references apr17 clarinet com tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com distribution na organization clarinet communications corp lines in article tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com tcmay netcom com timothy may writes getting the court order to reveal the key also makes decipherable all past conversations which may be on tape or disk or whatver as understand the proposal could be wrong but ve seen no mention of session keys being the escrowed entities true in theory in practice the technology of cellular phones will probably be spread spectrum and quite difficult to record the crypttext without the key if the frequency path depends on they key as understand it to it could be made effectively impossible to record once it hits land you can record it if you have telco access the telco isn supposed to give that without warrant that the rule today but even so the evidence would not be admissible think unless the judge so ordered think that even interception of the crypttext without warrant would be illegal cops can record today plain cellular calls and then ask judge hey can we have permission to listen to those tapes can they worse of course if the government then uses this clinton clipper to argue for restrictions on unapproved encryption this is the main concern of most of us think the camel nose in the tent etc yes that is major concern but think that they think they can win just by having of the usa use this system they don even have to care about the cautious that left they don catch the really smart crooks anyway john gotti who would have to be retarded not to realize he was likely to be wiretapped glibly chatted away on his tapped phone about murder plans that why he in jail now hard to believe but true this scheme can succeed without laws forbidding more which people would fight lot harder they like this enough that they are dropping the so called digital telephony proposal according to rumours however the meaning of that is complex since they still want to get at the crypttext on telco systems and that requires bit of work brad templeton clarinet communications corp sunnyvale ca xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester news crd ge com uunet usc venice gumby dsd trw com trwacs fp trw com trwacs johnson from johnson trwacs fp trw com steve johnson subject re once tapped your code is no good any more message id johnson trwacs organization trw systems division fairfax va references apr17 clarinet com tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com distribution na date sat apr gmt lines tcmay netcom com timothy may writes brad templeton brad clarinet com wrote it occurs to me that if they get wiretap order on you and the escrow houses release your code to the cops your code is now no longer secure it in the hands of cops and while am sure most of the time they are good their security will not be as good as the escrow houses what this effectively means is that if they perform wiretap on you at the end of the wiretap they should be obligated to inform you that tap was performed and replace for free the clipper chip in your cellular phone so that it is once again code known only to the escrow houses getting the court order to reveal the key also makes decipherable all past conversations which may be on tape or disk or whatver as understand the proposal could be wrong but ve seen no mention of session keys being the escrowed entities as the eff noted this raises further issues about the fruits of one bust leading to incrimination in other areas but is it any worse than the current unsecure system it becomes much worse of course if the government then uses this clinton clipper to argue for restrictions on unapproved encryption this is the main concern of most of us think the camel nose in the tent etc and it may also become much worse if the ostensible security is increased thus allowing greater access to central office records by the government the conversations being encrypted who will object to letting the government have access to them perhaps even automatically archiving large fractions this was one of the main objections to the proposal that it would force telecom suppliers to provide easy access for the government one the government has had access to months or years of your encrypted conversations now all it takes is one misstep one violation that gets them the paperwork needed to decrypt all of them do we want anyone to have this kind of power tim may whose sig block may get him busted in the new regime remark heard the other day is beginning to take on increasingly frightening significance the comment was made that in other parts of the world the democrats note the big would be known as socialists note the small democrat who wonders what thomas jefferson on this the th anniversary of his birth would have thought of the state of affairs between the government and the governed any views expressed are those of myself and not my employer steven johnson wb3iru vk2gds trw johnson trwacs fp trw com fp1 federal systems park drive phone fairfax virginia fax any views expressed are those of myself and not my employer steven johnson wb3iru vk2gds trw johnson trwacs fp trw com fp1 newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech swrinde network ucsd edu pacbell com att out cbnewsh cbnewsh cb att com wcs from wcs anchor ho att com bill stewart subject re text of white house announcement and as on clipper chip encryption organization mary ellen carter salvage crew distribution na date sat apr gmt message id wcs apr17024857 rainier att com in reply to jhesse netcom com message of sat apr gmt keywords big bubba is watching references c5l17v gh5 dove nist gov bontchev fbihh jhessec5ltt5 imc netcom com sender news cbnewsh cb att com netnews administrator nntp posting host rainier ho att com lines in article jhessec5ltt5 imc netcom com jhesse netcom com john hesse writes stupid me believed the democrats stood for principles of personal privacy while it was the neanderthal republicans that wanted into every aspect of our lives clinton is just more clever than the other guy looks like gun control for privacy technology one small step at time remember defend firearms defeat dukakis followed by bush soon after election support for gun control this is the democrats version defend free speech reject republicans followed by speech control wait minute let me think about this hmmm feel better now believe the white house when they tell us this first step is in fact the final step all is ok we ve nothing to fear they re here to help us god bless america hey like the grrreat bob dobbs says you ve got to pull the wool over your own eyes pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com at bell labs m312 holmdel nj no from new jersey only work in cyberspace white house commect line fax newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu usc elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl csus edu sfsuvax1 sfsu edu sphughes from sphughes sfsuvax1 sfsu edu shaun hughes subject clipper crap message id apr17 csus edu sender news csus edu organization san francisco state university date sat apr gmt lines encryption dual edge sword encryption helps to protect the privacy of individuals and industry but it also can shield criminals and terrorists we need the clipper chip and other just random passing thought but can anyone cite documented use of encryption technology by criminals and terrorists excluding the iran contra gang shaun hughes sphughes sfsuvax1 sfsu edu finger for pgp public key xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt privacy sci crypt alt security comp security misc comp org eff talk newsgroups alt privacy sci crypt alt security comp security misc comp org eff talk path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu swrinde network ucsd edu pacbell com att out cbnewsh cbnewsh cb att com wcs from wcs anchor ho att com bill stewart subject white house wiretap chip disinformation sheet organization ministry of truth date sat apr gmt message id wcs apr17034914 rainier att com in reply to clipper csrc ncsl nist gov message of fri apr gmt keywords big bubba is watching references c5lgaz dove nist gov sender news cbnewsh cb att com netnews administrator nntp posting host rainier ho att com lines fascinating most of the content of the white house announcements was in what was not said it gives us almost nothing of value threatens to take away lot and does it with sincere smile on its face and the nice friendly word management fact sheet public encryption management the first thing it doesn say is we re giving you stronger encryption what it says is the government has developed microcircuit that not only provides privacy through encryption that is substantially more robust than the current government standard but also permits escrowing of the keys needed to unlock the encryption the system for the escrowing of keys will allow the government to gain access to encrypted information only with appropriate legal authorization but des is strong enough that only the government can break it now so the major effect is to make it easier for government to break at best it makes it more difficult for the nsa to break since they need to get one of the two escrowed keys to do brute force search for the other bit key similarly it didn say we re making encryption is commercially available because encryption is already commercially available including forms the nsa may not be able to break like triple des or idea and phone companies could offer des based systems now if they were convinced the government would let them and they could make enough money the next thing it didn say is we re making encryption legal because of course encryption has always been legal and the president can change the first amendment merely by decree what it did say was in making this decision do not intend to prevent the private sector from developing or the government from approving other microcircuits or algorithms that are equally effective in assuring both privacy and secure key escrow system which clearly means we re making encryption illegal unless we get your keys soon once business buys into this another thing it didn say is we re going to ask congress for money to do lots more wiretapping because of course there budget crisis and congress might debate the policy issues or not give them the cash what it did say was the attorney general will procure and utilize encryption devices to the extent needed to preserve the government ability to conduct lawful electronic surveillance and to fulfill the need for secure law enforcement communications further the attorney general shall utilize funds from the department of justice asset forfeiture super surplus fund to effect this purchase which means we ve got money congress can control and we re going to buy lots of wiretapping equipment with it to detect non approved crypto that what preserve the government ability to conduct surveillance means pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com at bell labs m312 holmdel nj no from new jersey only work in cyberspace white house commect line fax path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu zaphod mps ohio state edu caen uunet looking brad from brad clarinet com brad templeton newsgroups sci crypt subject re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow keywords encryption wiretap clipper key escrow mykotronx message id apr17 clarinet com date apr gmt article clarinet apr17 references rand org rand org strnlghtc5lgfi jqa netcom com organization clarinet communications corp lines interestingly enough in designing the escrow we may want to use some rather unusual technology such as sealed boxes of paper or destructive read memory rather than typical computer databases which is fun for database of hundreds of millions of keys the greatest danger of the escrow database if it were kept on disk would be the chance that complete copy could somehow leak out you can design lots of protection but with enough corruption complete copy is always possible storing it on paper or something very hard to copy at once may actually make sense or medium that can be copied for example something with very slow access times or which leaves destructive trail if it is even read of course then it hard to backup however think the consequences of no backup the data is not there when warrant comes are worse than the consequences of secret backup an audit trail that reveals when data has been access that can be erased by the humans involved is also necessary brad templeton clarinet communications corp sunnyvale ca xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp org eff talk sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse emory swrinde network ucsd edu qualcom qualcomm com qualcom rdippold from rdippold qualcomm com ron asbestos dippold newsgroups comp org eff talk sci crypt subject re clinton boost in spy spending message id rdippold qualcom date apr gmt article qualcom rdippold references apr16 daffy cs wisc edu apr16 lambda msfc nasa gov alasnik merle apr17 csus edu sender news qualcomm com organization qualcomm inc san diego ca lines originator rdippold qualcom qualcomm com nntp posting host qualcom qualcomm com right on the heels of the clinton registered encryption key debacle comes sphughes sfsuvax1 sfsu edu shaun hughes writes from yesterdays chronicle president clinton has asked congress for authority to spend more money on spy agencies satellites and other intelligence activities in fiscal than it allotted for congressional and administration officials say clinton had promised to slash intelligence spending by billion over four years although the size of the nations vast intelligence budget remains an official secret administration and congressional officials disclosed yesterday that it would total about billion if the increase requested by clinton is approved wonder how much of that extra money goes into coming up with encryption schemes they can easily crack the theorem theorem if if then then xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt privacy sci crypt alt security comp security misc comp org eff talk path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse network ucsd edu qualcom qualcomm com qualcom rdippold from rdippold qualcomm com ron asbestos dippold newsgroups alt privacy sci crypt alt security comp security misc comp org eff talk subject re white house wiretap chip disinformation sheet keywords big bubba is watching message id rdippold qualcom date apr gmt article qualcom rdippold references c5lgaz dove nist gov wcs apr17034914 rainier att com sender news qualcomm com organization qualcomm inc san diego ca lines originator rdippold qualcom qualcomm com nntp posting host qualcom qualcomm com wcs anchor ho att com bill stewart writes fascinating most of the content of the white house announcements was in what was not said it gives us almost nothing of value threatens to take away lot and does it with sincere smile on its face and the nice friendly word management the computer err government is your friend have nice day under penalty of law to refuse praise is to seek praise twice path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse network ucsd edu qualcom qualcomm com qualcom rdippold from rdippold qualcomm com ron asbestos dippold newsgroups sci crypt subject re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow keywords encryption wiretap clipper key escrow mykotronx message id rdippold qualcom date apr gmt article qualcom rdippold references rand org rand org strnlghtc5lgfi jqa netcom com jhessec5lumc ex netcom com sender news qualcomm com organization qualcomm inc san diego ca lines originator rdippold qualcom qualcomm com nntp posting host qualcom qualcomm com jhesse netcom com john hesse writes oh great wonderful news nobody can listen in except the feds and anybody who can get the keys from the escrow company this is database that going to take plenty of updating they think they can keep it secure please and that just primary not secondary sources such as police using the key under warrant would anyone be surprised if they just neglected to erase the key if it turned out they couldn nail you on anything nourish waif and it will pick out your eyes newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu ames haven umd edu uunet looking brad from brad clarinet com brad templeton subject re how to detect use of an illegal cipher organization clarinet communications corp date sat apr gmt message id apr17 clarinet com references qn74ninni38 golden kaleida com betel camelot qnmnp db8 sol tis com lines in article qnmnp db8 sol tis com mjr tis com marcus ranum writes traffic that way your traffic looks normal and perhaps anyone desiring to listen in won even bother since they know nobody going to really trust crypto that has classified internals for important stuff nice to think but naive the fact is that millions of people today are sending highly confidential information over unencoded easy to receive cellular phones they figure the chances of being heard are small so they risk it and of people don understand crypto the way the least of the sci crypt newbies does if clinton tells them it good crypto they ll believe him and send important stuff over it and be thankful that they re no longer using clear voice fm cellular phones only tiny fraction of people will want more crypto worse in the eyes of the government which swears up and down the algorithim is spook level secure and it may indeed be the only reason you could possibly want this extra level is to avoid police by using it you ll attract attention as likely lawbreaker your honour the suspect suddenly started using another level of cryptography and we can tap his phone calls any more he must have something to hide please sign the warrant to search his house brad templeton clarinet communications corp sunnyvale ca xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt privacy sci crypt alt security comp security misc comp org eff talk path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu cs utexas edu uunet psgrain ee und ac za tplinfm from barrett lucy ee und ac za alan barrett newsgroups alt privacy sci crypt alt security comp security misc comp org eff talk subject re white house public encryption management fact sheet date apr organization elec eng univ natal durban africa lines distribution inet message id qoapv rn lucy ee und ac za references c5lgaz dove nist gov nntp posting host lucy ee und ac za in article c5lgaz dove nist gov clipper csrc ncsl nist gov clipper chip announcement writes distribution na no thanks this topic is of interest to much wider audience in making this decision do not intend to prevent the private sector from developing or the government from approving other microcircuits or algorithms that are equally effective in assuring both privacy and secure key escrow system in making this decision intend to prevent the private sector from developing except with the government approval other microcircuits or algorithms that are more effective in assuring privacy apb alan barrett dept of electronic eng univ of natal durban south africa rfc822 barrett ee und ac za xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu ames olivea uunet haven umd edu ni umd edu sayshell umd edu louie from louie sayshell umd edu louis mamakos newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee subject re once tapped your code is no good any more message id qovj8 ni umd edu date apr gmt references apr17 clarinet com tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com distribution na organization the university of maryland college park lines nntp posting host sayshell umd edu in article tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com tcmay netcom com timothy may writes but is it any worse than the current unsecure system it becomes much worse of course if the government then uses this clinton clipper to argue for restrictions on unapproved encryption this is the main concern of most of us think the camel nose in the tent etc excuse me this has already happened there couple of humps in the tent already ask the folks at qualcomm what became of the non trivial encryption scheme they proposed for use in their cdma digitial cellular phone standard there already are restrictions in place louis mamakos path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu swrinde cs utexas edu rutgers fdurt1 fdu edu wisdom bubble org sugra ken from ken sugra uucp kenneth ng newsgroups sci crypt subject re fifth amendment and passwords message id apr17 sugra uucp date apr gmt references apr15 magnus acs ohio state edu c5jzsz jzo cs uiuc edu apr16 linus mitre org organization private computer totowa nj lines in article apr16 linus mitre org ptrei bistromath mitre org peter trei writes judge grant you immunity from whatever may be learned from the key itself you the keyphrase is confess to deliberately evading copyright the file encoded with this keyphrase contains illegal scans of copyrighted peanuts strips judge and cp oh how will they get you now not saying that they won or can or even that they shouldn but what legal mechanism will they use should we be crossposting this to misc legal hm could another court try you via bypass of the double jeopardy amendment like they are doing in the lapd trial ie your judge is state judge and then federal judge retries you under the justification that its not the same trail kenneth ng please reply to ken blue njit edu for now all this might be an elaborate simulation running in little device sitting on someone table picard st tng newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com emory wupost zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu linac att att allegra ulysses ulysses smb from smb research att com steven bellovin subject re the old key registration idea message id apr17 ulysses att com date sat apr gmt references qn1ic hp6 access digex net rlglendec5lrwc netcom com organization at bell laboratories lines in article rlglendec5lrwc netcom com rlglende netcom com robert lewis glendenning writes have been chided for stating that dorthy denning was intellectually dishonest in the acm debate and in this newsgroup have previously refrained from suggesting that she is arguing on behalf of consulting clients now say that it is clear that dorthy denning has been functioning as lobbyist not computer scientist she has used legal ethics truth is what you can convince anyone of not scientific ethics truth is understanding the external world maybe we can revoke her acm membership suggest that you refrain from such insults unless and until you can produce some evidence to back up that claim given the measures proposed or passed in the last year or so such as and the scanner ban her proposal need not be any more than her own attempt at technical solution it entirely possible in fact that it was the notion of splitting the key which came up in the debate that softened this proposal newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech swrinde zaphod mps ohio state edu sol ctr columbia edu news cs columbia edu ji from ji cs columbia edu john ioannidis subject re source of random bits on unix workstation message id c5msgj l4 cs columbia edu sender news cs columbia edu the daily news organization columbia university department of computer science references pivot sbi com c5ja6s a59 cs psu edu c5jp0k p5 cs columbia edu pivot sbi com date sat apr gmt lines in article pivot sbi com bet sbi com bennett todd salomon brothers inc ny writes heard about this solution and it sounded good then heard that folks were experiencing times of seconds to run this on reasonably configured workstations not willing to add that much delay to someone login process my approach etherfind compress skip takes second or two to run considering writing the be all and end all of solutions that launches the md5 and simultaneously tries to suck bits off the net and if the net should be sitting so idle that it can get after compression before md5 finishes use the md5 this way could have guaranteed good bits and deterministic upper bound on login time and still have the common case of login take only couple of extra seconds seconds to hash of core bet know who the source of your information is no it not acceptable if it part of your login process but if you are going to use network traffic as the source of pseudo random information do the right thing and pass it through cryptographic hash function not compressor aside from the fact that it will run faster it will give better results think of cryptographic hash as function that distills randomness something along the lines of etherfind dd bs count dev null md5 should do the trick gives you timestamps and the lack of makes sure that dd does not get ten lines as opposed to ten the above takes couple of seconds on lightly loaded ethernet bennett bet sbi com ji xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp org eff talk sci crypt newsgroups comp org eff talk sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech swrinde network ucsd edu munnari oz au uniwa cujo cc curtin edu au zrepachol from zrepachol cc curtin edu au paul repacholi subject re how do they know what keys to ask for re clipper message id apr17 cc curtin edu au lines sender news cujo curtin edu au news manager organization curtin university of technology references apr16 umr edu apr16 natasha portal com apr16 fsl noaa gov apr17 clarinet com johnson trwacs date sat apr gmt in article johnson trwacs johnson trwacs fp trw com steve johnson writes brad clarinet com brad templeton writes and of course you have to identify yourself to the phone company and since the phone company complies with court orders they will know the magic number of your chip when they sign out warrant on you and then can present the warrant to the key escrow house lets hope years ago telecom tech refused to tap line unless he saw the warrant the managment type who told him to do it fired him the appeal against the dismissal was lost who makes them forget and destroy all copies of the key once they ve decided you re not criminal today just curious good luck paul xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp org eff talk sci crypt newsgroups comp org eff talk sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech swrinde network ucsd edu munnari oz au uniwa cujo cc curtin edu au zrepachol from zrepachol cc curtin edu au paul repacholi subject re what is going on message id apr17 cc curtin edu au lines sender news cujo curtin edu au news manager organization curtin university of technology references apr14 mnemosyne cs du edu qhc2p d8 transfer stratus com apr16 cc curtin edu au distribution inet date sat apr gmt in article apr16 cc curtin edu au zrepachol cc curtin edu au paul repacholi writes if you can be bothered reading get the video manufacturing consent in reply to mail queries don know if video is available yet asked about month ao and was told rsn several have also asked which of chomskys books my answer is all of them and anything else you can get as well how ever due to irritations like the hr day etc would say manafacturing conscent first them th last parts of detering democracy ie the bits about the domestic rd world chilling anyone at mit have good st noam bibliography paul xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt privacy sci crypt alt security comp security misc comp org eff talk newsgroups alt privacy sci crypt alt security comp security misc comp org eff talk path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet clarkson deuelpm from deuelpm craft camp clarkson edu hobbit subject re white house public encryption management fact sheet message id deuelpm craft camp clarkson edu sender news news clarkson edu nntp posting host logic clarkson edu organization clarkson university references c5lgaz dove nist gov distribution na date sat apr gmt lines have question about digital communications encryption the fact sheet mentioned encryption decryption microcircuitry with special keys for law enforcement for wire tapping purposes if wanted to couldn develop encryption of my own that is if me and partner in crime had unique encryption decryption devices installed before the tappable one couldn we circumvent the keys system or replace it be really interested in knowing how the microcircuits might be made to prevent such befuddlement laymans language please maybe bit technical please mail to me as not in net news as much as like to be pete deuelpm craft camp clarkson edu deuelpm craft camp clarkson edu regret is rough sheet to sleep on herman brooks path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com emory swrinde elroy jpl nasa gov ames haven umd edu uunet pipex ibmpcug news ibmpcug co uk news ibmpcug co uk not for mail from gtoal news ibmpcug co uk graham toal newsgroups sci crypt subject re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow date apr organization etc organization lines message id qp9d1 e37 dorothy ibmpcug co uk references rand org rand org strnlghtc5lgfi jqa netcom com nntp posting host dorothy ibmpcug co uk keywords encryption wiretap clipper key escrow mykotronx in article strnlghtc5lgfi jqa netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes though some may argue about the nose of the camel it worth noting that the government proposal is limited to scrambled telephony if it is only used for that purpose and does not extend to electronic mail or file encryption then it is an improvement over the current mass produced standard civilian technology which with few exceptions is limited to easy to break inverters try reading between the lines david there are strong hints in there that they re angling for nren next and the only conceivable meaning of applying this particular technology to computer network is that they intend it to be used in exclusion to any other means of encryption don be lulled by the wedge because its end looks so thin graham xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee misc legal newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee misc legal path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech swrinde zaphod mps ohio state edu malgudi oar net news ans net cmcl2 panix eck from eck panix com mark eckenwiler subject re once tapped your code is no good any more message id c5mxsk a10 panix com followup to comp org eff talk comp security misc organization nwo steering committee references c5l17v gh5 dove nist gov qmugcinnpu9 gap caltech edu apr17 clarinet com distribution na date sat apr gmt lines in apr17 clarinet com brad clarinet com sez do the police normally reveal every tap they do even if no charges are laid in many ways it would be positive step if they had to judges set time limits on warrants assume under the relevant federal law usc sec the authorizing judge must notify the targets within days after the tap period with extensions expires this is the normal practice of course no wiretap law would be complete without the unless clause which in subsection reads like this on an ex parte showing by the gov without opposition since that would obviously involve notice to the targets of good cause to judge of competent jurisdiction the serving of the inventory required by this subsection the order itself dates of interception etc may be postponed emphasis added followups directed to few select groups moral always choose the right sort of parents before you start in to be rough george ade mark eckenwiler eck panix com cmcl2 panix eck xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp org eff talk sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net nic umass edu caen zaphod mps ohio state edu swrinde elroy jpl nasa gov ames olivea charnel rat decwrl src dec com src dec com murray from murray src dec com hal murray newsgroups comp org eff talk sci crypt subject re how do they know what keys to ask for re clipper message id apr17 src dec com date apr gmt references apr16 umr edu apr16 natasha portal com apr16 fsl noaa gov apr17 clarinet com sender news src dec com news organization dec systems research center lines in article apr17 clarinet com brad clarinet com brad templeton writes the actual algorithm is classified however their main thrust here is for cellular phones and encryption is only over the radio end not end to end think end to end will come later encrypting just the radio link doesn make sense to me that means the telco has to do the decryption and hence they need the keys how are they going to be kept secure xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net nic umass edu caen nigel msen com fmsrl7 lynx unm edu dns1 nmsu edu amolitor from amolitor nmsu edu andrew molitor newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee subject re once tapped your code is no good any more date apr gmt organization department of mathematical sciences lines distribution na message id qpg8finn982 dns1 nmsu edu references apr17 clarinet com tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com nntp posting host moink nmsu edu in article tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com tcmay netcom com timothy may writes but is it any worse than the current unsecure system it becomes much worse of course if the government then uses this clinton clipper to argue for restrictions on unapproved encryption this is the main concern of most of us think the camel nose in the tent etc not to pick on mr may in particular of course but isn this kind of the domino theory when one little country falls its neighbor will surely follow and before you know it we re all mining salt in siberia for not turning in our captain crunch secret decoder rings surely the hypothesis relying on the least wild assumptions is to take this at face value our lads at the fort were asked to cook up something that pretty secure with key that can be escrowed neatly and they did the government plans to sell this thing for the reasons they state yes those evil guys in the fbi can probably with some effort abuse the system got news for you if the evil guys in the fbi decide they want to persecute you they re gonna and you re gonna hate it fact is the fbi doesn want to listen to your phone calls and if they do and if you re using triple des they ll just get parabolic microphone and point it at your head this is pretty clearly an effort by the government to do exactly what they re saying they re doing as is typical with governments it mismanaged and full of holes and compromises as is typical with our government it not too bad could be worse my interpretation andrew tim may whose sig block may get him busted in the new regime isn this just little melodramatic xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt security pgp sci crypt comp org eff talk alt privacy newsgroups alt security pgp sci crypt comp org eff talk alt privacy path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com emory sol ctr columbia edu usc elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl netcomsv netcom com grady from grady netcom com ef221 subject powerful similarity too message id gradyc5n33m ta netcom com organization capriccioso newsreader tin version pl6 date sat apr gmt lines unix tool of cryptographic significance is available for anonymous ftp agrep fast approximate pattern matching tool source code project available from cs arizona edu in directory agrep agrep is very fast fuzzy search tool with tremendous number of powerful search options the one most obviously applicable to cryptography key selection is to be able to specify the similarity of matches in the data for example say you make up password phrase of qimwe7l of course you rightly suspect that this key itself is not in any dictionary or word list but how close is it to en entry that could be varied by some crack program to brute force search for it you use agrep to find out looking with argument for none one or two errors no matches good so far but agrep qimwe7l bigwordandphraselist finds that the pattern qimwe7l is too close to the pattern imsel part of himself and host of others to be of any cryptographic value as key an error of level two corresponds to simple transposition of letters like teh for the minimally acceptable password would have to pass as least level in order not immediately ruled out as even remote possibility of being good password in real cryptographic use my personal passphrases clear at least level on my rather large meg word and phrase lists and for searching for key words in human typed data lots typos the tool is unexcelled for example for example say want to find out what people think about gibson sf book neuromancer in the huge sf lover archives even with an error distance specification as small as of will find all those people who think the title was necromancer or other common typos why miss anything also the program can look for up to patterns in parallel at boyer moore sublinear speeds great for nsa wannabe to look for your name terrorists names special tagalog or religious words etc in the news or mail spool directories you can even search for ciphertext by using say random three byte combinations and eliminate all texts that don score the chi square birthday hits on message size you think some crypto terrorist is try to foil you by changing the pattern on you no problem try agrep nsa to find nsa national security agency nsecag no such agency national scrabble association etc you can also specify fixed areas looking for license plate xyz123 when you know that the letters are correct you might say agrep xyz licenseplatedatabase will find all plates starting with xyz with up to two errors addition substitution deletion in the number area you can also weight the relative cost for substiutions additions or deletion errors for example when searching dna patterns for particular protein combination you might know that some kinds of damage cause the nucelotide to drop out more than other errors you could adjust for this bias by setting dc where you set the deletion cost to count as errors steganographic use even used agrep steg eograp just now to find the correct spelling would be to intentionally introduce errors of certain type and magnitude into plaintext and then later recover the orginal it via an agrep pipe lots of possibilities here when only outlaws can have ciphertext also with agrep powerful extraction options it makes it easy to abstract the hits into useful form for example agrep from pgp passphrase zimmerman nsa says output the entire mail record delimited by from that contains pgp and contains either passphrase zimmerman or nsa and agrep has been measured an order of magnitude faster than the second best similarity tool publicly available as usual will be glad to mail the source and docs to those who reqest them by mail if they cannot do an anonymous ftp get this now it is too powerful to stay in the hands of the nsa grady ward vendor to the nsa and proud of it grady netcom com ef221 e2 ad d3 d1 c6 f3 fc ac f7 xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com emory sol ctr columbia edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu cs utexas edu sun barr decwrl csus edu netcom com mearle from mearle netcom com mark earle subject pgp vs message id mearlec5n449 y1 netcom com organization netcom online communications services login guest references apr17 clarinet com tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com qpg8finn982 dns1 nmsu edu distribution na date sat apr gmt lines ve seen pgp mentioned for the mac platform use on ms dos is there for ms dos if so site or two that has it available need executables although source would be nice to review what was fixed or changed from thanks mwe mearle netcom com finger for pgp2 public key xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp org eff talk sci crypt newsgroups comp org eff talk sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech usenet ins cwru edu magnus acs ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu caen destroyer cs ubc ca newsserver sfu ca sfu ca gthomas from gthomas fraser sfu ca guy thomas subject re what is going on message id gthomas sfu ca sender news sfu ca organization simon fraser university burnaby canada references apr14 mnemosyne cs du edu qhc2p d8 transfer stratus com apr16 cc curtin edu au apr17 cc curtin edu au distribution inet date sat apr gmt lines zrepachol cc curtin edu au paul repacholi writes in article apr16 cc curtin edu au zrepachol cc curtin edu au paul repacholi writes if you can be bothered reading get the video manufacturing consent in reply to mail queries don know if video is available yet asked about month ao and was told rsn yes it is from the national film board of canada guy gthomas native ed bc ca xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt comp security misc alt security comp org eff talk alt privacy newsgroups sci crypt comp security misc alt security comp org eff talk alt privacy alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com emory swrinde zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu linac att att ulysses ulysses smb from smb research att com steven bellovin subject clipper some new thoughts message id apr17 ulysses att com date sat apr gmt organization at bell laboratories followup to sci crypt lines desparately prefer it if we didn rehash the same arguments that went on ad infinitum last time that especially true for sci crypt for that matter ve created alt privacy clipper since the traffic is appearing in many different groups right now going to focus here on some technical aspects of the plan hence my followup to sci crypt frankly if you re not an absolutist your feelings may turn on some of these issues for example with an bit key simply splitting it into two bit pieces is much less acceptable than other schemes because it means that if just one repository is shall we say overly pliable would be eavesdropper would need to recover just more bits of key need not point out in this newsgroup that that pretty easy to do by exhaustive search slightly more complex scheme xor ing the key with random number and then with its complement would produce two bit subkeys neither of which is useful alone that variant is much more resistant to attack clearly one can get even more sophisticated to protect the subkeys even more other thoughts some people have noted the size and complexity of the databases necessary but the id strings the phones emit could be their back door key double encrypted with the escrow repositories public keys for that matter they could do that only with session keys and have no back door at all in that case the fbi would have to bring every intercept to the repositories to be decrypted this would answer many of the objections along the lines of how do you make sure they stop we can even combine that with variant of the digital telephony back door have the switch do the tap but with digitally signed record of the time phone number etc of the call that provides proof to the escrow agents that the tap was done in compliance with the terms of the warrant can suggest other variations too suppose each clipper chip had public key pairs each would be used times after which you need more keying material not bad idea in any event this could be used to enforce time limits or rather usage limits on each warrant the keys the repository agents would deliver wouldn last for very long suspect that the cryptographic algorithm itself is secure apart from the obvious why push weak algorithm when you ve already got the back door think that the government is still genuinely concerned about foreign espionage especially aimed at commercial targets this scheme lets the spooks have their cake and eat it too ve heard rumors over the years that some factions within nsa were unhappy with des because it was too good not that they couldn crack it but it was much too expensive to do so as easily as they want they re keeping the details secret so that others don build their own implementations without the back door the cryptographic protocol though is another matter see no valid reasons for keeping it secret and as hope ve shown above there are lot of ways to do things that aren quite as bad newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech usenet ufl edu eng ufl edu spool mu edu news cs indiana edu mvanheyn cs indiana edu from marc vanheyningen mvanheyn cs indiana edu subject how does it really work was re text of white house announcement and as on clipper chip encryption message id moose cs indiana edu sender mvanheyn cs indiana edu organization computer science dept indiana university references c5l17v gh5 dove nist gov distribution na date sat apr lines this announcement is somewhat disconcerting it doesn do anything evil in and of itself but bodes badly for the future of open algorithms and standards in information security won start panicking until unless des or rsa or stuff like that is prohibited but little anxious no doubt it won be long before someone posts explaining how this just small part of some far ranging and long lived nsa pkp irs fbi cia handguncontrolinc clinton conspiracy to subvert freedom democracy and mathematics my feeling is that the administration probably isn that worried about things like des and rsa and pgp and ripem since they ll never be used by group much wider than us computer geeks the fact that this just came out now suggests one of two things the nsa has been working on this for long time and it only just now happened to be ready to release to the world at this time the nsa has been working on this for long time but wasn able to get the bush administration to go along with this plan find it unlikely that this would have been because of sympathy for the unescrowed use of cryptography more likely the administration felt that even escrowed secret algorithm and for all we know trivially breakable cryptography should not be made widely available thus said clipper csrc ncsl nist gov clipper chip announcement this new technology will help companies protect proprietary information protect the privacy of personal phone conversations and prevent unauthorized release of data transmitted electronically at the same time this technology preserves the ability of federal state and local law enforcement agencies to intercept lawfully the phone conversations of criminals the majority of the discussion involving this clipper chip seems to pertain to the encryption of telephone conversations does anyone know if that means this chip is designed to work primarily with analog signals the language sort of suggests this but it hard to say the main thing just don get is whether this chip implements symmetric or asymmetric cryptographic techniques anybody know guessing symmetric but they don get very clear about it if it is symmetric how is it useful for anything other than link level encryption with an identical chip at each end how can you negotiate per session key using symmetric cryptography without using trusted third party who knows your key or does it even use per session key if it asymmetric what about pkp patents which they claim cover all methods of doing asymmetric cryptography are they getting royalties or is hiding infringement the real reason for keeping the algorithm secret marc vanheyningen mvanheyn cs indiana edu mime ripem accepted kirk won hurt you alien you hit me kirk well won hit you again xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech asuvax ncar csn boulder ucsu spot colorado edu cuffell from cuffell spot colorado edu tim cuffel subject re once tapped your code is no good any more message id apr17 ucsu colorado edu sender news ucsu colorado edu usenet news system nntp posting host spot colorado edu organization university of colorado boulder references apr17 clarinet com tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com apr17 clarinet com distribution na date sat apr gmt lines change login passwords every couple of months sure would suck if had to get new sparc station everytime wanted to do this it seems that this is what they expect you to do if you want to routinely change your password on your phone sure the government contractor doesn mind but system where you can cheaply change keys des has inherent security advantages regardless of the algorithms involved tim cuffel finger for pgp the cia has admitted that the assassination of saddam hussien was one of their goals they failed of course seems as though that motorcade through downtown dallas trick only works once newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com emory swrinde cs utexas edu zaphod mps ohio state edu rpi smythw from smythw vccnw03 its rpi edu william smythe subject re how to detect use of an illegal cipher message id wv5 rpi edu sender smythw rpi edu bill smythe nntp posting host vccnw03 its rpi edu organization rensselaer polytechnic institute troy ny references qmugcinnpu9 gap caltech edu qn74ninni38 golden kaleida com betel camelot date sat apr gmt lines in article betel camelot betel camelot bradley edu robert crawford writes jay fenton fenton kaleida com writes how can the government tell which encryption method one is using without being able to decode the traffic in order to accuse me of using an unauthorized strong encryption technique they would have to take both keys out of escrow run them against my ciphertext and draw blank was thinking about this also it quite possible the system transmits in clear the serial number of the device being used that way they can start tap get the serial number and use the warrant for the first tap to get the key if they tap someone who apparently using encryption but don find that prefix then they ll assume it an un authorized encryption scheme from the limited details released so far it seems that the clipper chip system must employ some sort of public key cryptography otherwise the key management problems inherent to symetric ciphers would make the system unworkable it probably has some sort of public key exchange that takes place at the start of each call thats how they would identify the private key in their data base this means that either the nsa has developed some non rsa public key algorythm or the feds have decided to subsidize pkp rsadsi the former is rather an exciting posibility since keeping the algorythm secret while making chip implimentations widely avalibe will be exceptionally hard if the feds are forced to make it avalible in order to gain public acceptance than that could break rsa stranglehold on public key crypto in the as for my impressions of the whole scheme it seems that instead of trying to ban strong crypto they are trying to co opt it their contention that they need to keep the algorythm secret to protect the security of the key registration suggests possible inherent weakness to the algorythm more likely is that they dont want anyone constructing black market devices which dont have the keys registered anyone else notice that in their session they talk about releasing the keys only to people with proper autiorization but carefully dance around stating that the keys will simply have to be supeonaed they seem to be trying to keep open the posibility of obtaining keys without court order even though tapping phone line requires one also pick up on their implicit threat of eithe accept this or we ll ban strong crypto outright dont trust this plan at all and plan to oppose it in all legal ways possible bill smythe xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt security sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech udel news intercon com usenet from amanda intercon com amanda walker newsgroups alt security sci crypt subject re once tapped your code is no good any more date sat apr organization intercon systems corporation herndon va usa lines distribution world message id qpn3o qao news intercon com references tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com reply to amanda intercon com amanda walker nntp posting host chaos intercon com newsreader intercon tcp connect ii tcmay netcom com timothy may writes but is it any worse than the current unsecure system it becomes much worse of course if the government then uses this clinton clipper to argue for restrictions on unapproved encryption this is the main concern of most of us think the camel nose in the tent etc agree this is the danger see not the system itself that is to say this is political issue not technical one amanda walker intercon systems corporation path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech udel news intercon com usenet from amanda intercon com amanda walker newsgroups sci crypt subject re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow date sat apr organization intercon systems corporation herndon va usa lines distribution world message id qpniq qat news intercon com references qp9d1 e37 dorothy ibmpcug co uk reply to amanda intercon com amanda walker nntp posting host chaos intercon com keywords encryption wiretap clipper key escrow mykotronx newsreader intercon tcp connect ii gtoal news ibmpcug co uk graham toal writes try reading between the lines david there are strong hints in there that they re angling for nren next where honestly didn see any and the only conceivable meaning of applying this particular technology to computer network is that they intend it to be used in exclusion to any other means of encryption disagree if for no other reason than that there are already other standards in place besides even if they restrict encryption on the nren who cares most of the internet is commercial anyway the nren is only for geovernment and university research read the proposals it data superhighway for cray users not anything having to do with the internet amanda walker intercon systems corporation xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt comp org eff talk path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech news feed peachnet edu umn edu gaia ucs orst edu connected com beauty rwing pat from pat rwing uucp pat myrto newsgroups sci crypt comp org eff talk subject new clipper chip proposal from the guv keywords encryption privacy individual rights legalities big brother message id rwing uucp date apr gmt organization totally unorganized lines saw this article posted in local newsgroup haven seen it or any followup traffic relating to it in these groups or other groups which subscribe to so am posting it here so others can read it check it out and comment on it and provide ideas for handling these sorts of things have no verification to the accuracy or lack of accuracy of this article but if accurate find it extremely disturbing especially in light of various abuses of the ssn number regarding privacy understand it is now to be required in ca to renew drivers license or to register car and other proposals regarding smart national identity cards wiretap proposals and such one simply wonders what other gems are in the wings ready to be sprung on the people by our government perhaps suggestions and ideas for preventing this and other such proposals from acquiring the force of law would be useful the cost simply outweighs any possible benefits imo btw reading this makes me think of some ideas prof denning has been promoting in an even more disturbing form that said with no further comment the article follows begin included article note this file will also be available via anonymous file transfer from csrc ncsl nist gov in directory pub nistnews and via the nist computer security bbs at the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april statement by the press secretary the president today announced new initiative that will bring the federal government together with industry in voluntary program to improve the security and privacy of telephone communications while meeting the legitimate needs of law enforcement the initiative will involve the creation of new products to accelerate the development and use of advanced and secure telecommunications networks and wireless communications links for too long there has been little or no dialogue between our private sector and the law enforcement community to resolve the tension between economic vitality and the real challenges of protecting americans rather than use technology to accommodate the sometimes competing interests of economic growth privacy and law enforcement previous policies have pitted government against industry and the rights of privacy against law enforcement sophisticated encryption technology has been used for years to protect electronic funds transfer it is now being used to protect electronic mail and computer files while encryption technology can help americans protect business secrets and the unauthorized release of personal information it also can be used by terrorists drug dealers and other criminals state of the art microcircuit called the clipper chip has been developed by government engineers the chip represents new approach to encryption technology it can be used in new relatively inexpensive encryption devices that can be attached to an ordinary telephone it scrambles telephone communications using an encryption algorithm that is more powerful than many in commercial use today this new technology will help companies protect proprietary information protect the privacy of personal phone conversations and prevent unauthorized release of data transmitted electronically at the same time this technology preserves the ability of federal state and local law enforcement agencies to intercept lawfully the phone conversations of criminals key escrow system will be established to ensure that the clipper chip is used to protect the privacy of law abiding americans each device containing the chip will have two unique keys numbers that will be needed by authorized government agencies to decode messages encoded by the device when the device is manufactured the two keys will be deposited separately in two key escrow data bases that will be established by the attorney general access to these keys will be limited to government officials with legal authorization to conduct wiretap the clipper chip technology provides law enforcement with no new authorities to access the content of the private conversations of americans to demonstrate the effectiveness of this new technology the attorney general will soon purchase several thousand of the new devices in addition respected experts from outside the government will be offered access to the confidential details of the algorithm to assess its capabilities and publicly report their findings the chip is an important step in addressing the problem of encryption dual edge sword encryption helps to protect the privacy of individuals and industry but it also can shield criminals and terrorists we need the clipper chip and other approaches that can both provide law abiding citizens with access to the encryption they need and prevent criminals from using it to hide their illegal activities in order to assess technology trends and explore new approaches like the key escrow system the president has directed government agencies to develop comprehensive policy on encryption that accommodates the privacy of our citizens including the need to employ voice or data encryption for business purposes the ability of authorized officials to access telephone calls and data under proper court or other legal order when necessary to protect our citizens the effective and timely use of the most modern technology to build the national information infrastructure needed to promote economic growth and the competitiveness of american industry in the global marketplace and the need of companies to manufacture and export high technology products the president has directed early and frequent consultations with affected industries the congress and groups that advocate the privacy rights of individuals as policy options are developed the administration is committed to working with the private sector to spur the development of national information infrastructure which will use new telecommunications and computer technologies to give americans unprecedented access to information this infrastructure of high speed networks information superhighways will transmit video images hdtv programming and huge data files as easily as today telephone system transmits voice since encryption technology will play an increasingly important role in that infrastructure the federal government must act quickly to develop consistent comprehensive policies regarding its use the administration is committed to policies that protect all americans right to privacy while also protecting them from those who break the law further information is provided in an accompanying fact sheet the provisions of the president directive to acquire the new encryption technology are also available for additional details call mat heyman national institute of standards and technology questions and answers about the clinton administration telecommunications initiative does this approach expand the authority of government agencies to listen in on phone conversations no clipper chip technology provides law enforcement with no new authorities to access the content of the private conversations of americans suppose law enforcement agency is conducting wiretap on drug smuggling ring and intercepts conversation encrypted using the device what would they have to do to decipher the message they would have to obtain legal authorization normally court order to do the wiretap in the first place they would then present documentation of this authorization to the two entities responsible for safeguarding the keys and obtain the keys for the device being used by the drug smugglers the key is split into two parts which are stored separately in order to ensure the security of the key escrow system who will run the key escrow data banks the two key escrow data banks will be run by two independent entities at this point the department of justice and the administration have yet to determine which agencies will oversee the key escrow data banks how strong is the security in the device how can be sure how strong the security is this system is more secure than many other voice encryption systems readily available today while the algorithm will remain classified to protect the security of the key escrow system we are willing to invite an independent panel of cryptography experts to evaluate the algorithm to assure all potential users that there are no unrecognized vulnerabilities whose decision was it to propose this product the national security council the justice department the commerce department and other key agencies were involved in this decision this approach has been endorsed by the president the vice president and appropriate cabinet officials who was consulted the congress industry we have on going discussions with congress and industry on encryption issues and expect those discussions to intensify as we carry out our review of encryption policy we have briefed members of congress and industry leaders on the decisions related to this initiative will the government provide the hardware to manufacturers the government designed and developed the key access encryption microcircuits but it is not providing the microcircuits to product manufacturers product manufacturers can acquire the microcircuits from the chip manufacturer that produces them who provides the clipper chip mykotronx programs it at their facility in torrance california and will sell the chip to encryption device manufacturers the programming function could be licensed to other vendors in the future how do buy one of these encryption devices we expect several manufacturers to consider incorporating the clipper chip into their devices if the administration were unable to find technological solution like the one proposed would the administration be willing to use legal remedies to restrict access to more powerful encryption devices this is fundamental policy question which will be considered during the broad policy review the key escrow mechanism will provide americans with an encryption product that is more secure more convenient and less expensive than others readily available today but it is just one piece of what must be the comprehensive approach to encryption technology which the administration is developing the administration is not saying since encryption threatens the public safety and effective law enforcement we will prohibit it outright as some countries have effectively done nor is the saying that every american as matter of right is entitled to an unbreakable commercial encryption product there is false tension created in the assessment that this issue is an either or proposition rather both concerns can be and in fact are harmoniously balanced through reasoned balanced approach such as is proposed with the clipper chip and similar encryption techniques what does this decision indicate about how the clinton administration policy toward encryption will differ from that of the bush administration it indicates that we understand the importance of encryption technology in telecommunications and computing and are committed to working with industry and public interest groups to find innovative ways to protect americans privacy help businesses to compete and ensure that law enforcement agencies have the tools they need to fight crime and terrorism will the devices be exportable will other devices that use the government hardware voice encryption devices are subject to export control requirements case by case review for each export is required to ensure appropriate use of these devices the same is true for other encryption devices one of the attractions of this technology is the protection it can give to companies operating at home and abroad with this in mind we expect export licenses will be granted on case by case basis for companies seeking to use these devices to secure their own communications abroad we plan to review the possibility of permitting wider exportability of these products end included article pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle wa if all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and am not sure about the former albert einstien newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com emory swrinde zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu linac att att allegra ulysses ulysses smb from smb research att com steven bellovin subject re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow message id apr17 ulysses att com date sat apr gmt references rand org rand org strnlghtc5lgfi jqa netcom com qp9d1 e37 dorothy ibmpcug co uk organization at bell laboratories keywords encryption wiretap clipper key escrow mykotronx lines in article qp9d1 e37 dorothy ibmpcug co uk gtoal news ibmpcug co uk graham toal writes try reading between the lines david there are strong hints in there that they re angling for nren next and the only conceivable meaning of applying this particular technology to computer network is that they intend it to be used in exclusion to any other means of encryption umm beg to differ with the phrase only conceivable meaning the sdns protocols for example make explicit provision for multiple encryption systems as does pem and love to see how they mandate this new system for pem without disclosing it mind you not saying that multiple algorithms will actually be used but the relevant technologies certainly provide for them which certainly casts doubt on your choice of words xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester news bbn com noc near net uunet gatekeeper us oracle com decwrl netcomsv netcom com rlglende from rlglende netcom com robert lewis glendenning subject don fight clipper chip subvert or replace it message id rlglendec5naji ue netcom com organization netcom online communication services guest references apr17 clarinet com tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com distribution na date sat apr gmt lines clipper chip is response to the fact that there is no business or professional body in position to establish standard and provide chipsets to implement it for analog or digial transmission systems rsa might be in position to do it if they had active cooperation of couple of manufacturers of cellular phones or desktop phones large companies in the voice data comm business are out because they all have contracts with the gov which would be used to pressure them if we as professionals in crypto organizations eff etc were to put our collective minds and interests toward establishing crypto standard for transmission and getting our companies to implement it we might avoid government control otherwise think it will happen to us by default gov isn probably strong enough or foolish enough to prevent strong crypt they are strong enough and we may be foolish enough to push through the clipper chip is rsa independt of the gov enough to spearhead this for one would gladly pay royalties via purchasing secure phones if not this we should provide an algorithm which can be implemented in either sw or hw and publish it then push to make it the defacto standard in the way that pgp and ripem are becoming such we are opposing charging the bunker we should be nimble and clever the gov is strong not clever lew lew glendenning rlglende netcom com perspective is worth iq points niels bohr or somebody like that path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet pipex uknet uknet gdt masjhd from masjhd gdr bath ac uk james davenport newsgroups sci crypt subject re trinomial based prng message id apr17 gdr bath ac uk date apr gmt organization school of mathematical sciences university of bath uk lines tried to mail peter boucher who posted the question but my mail bounced so apologies to thsoe who are not interested trinomials are all of the form where have you read bremner on trinomials of type ax math scand pp zbl mr ljunggren on the irreducibility of certain trinomials and quadrinomials math scand pp tverberg on the irreducibility of the trinomials mpm mpm math scand pp tverberg on cubic factors of certain trinomials math scand pp zbl james davenport jhd maths bath ac uk xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt comp org eff talk newsgroups sci crypt comp org eff talk path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet zaphod mps ohio state edu moe ksu ksu edu ux1 cso uiuc edu cs uiuc edu kadie from kadie cs uiuc edu carl kadie subject re clipper crap message id c5nbpq ii cs uiuc edu organization university of illinois dept of comp sci urbana il references apr17 csus edu date sat apr gmt lines encryption dual edge sword encryption helps to protect the privacy of individuals and industry but it also can shield criminals and terrorists we need the clipper chip and other necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom it is the argument of tyrants it is the creed of slaves william pitt carl kadie do not represent any organization this is just me kadie cs uiuc edu xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech darwin sura net bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu csus edu netcom com tcmay from tcmay netcom com timothy may subject re don fight clipper chip subvert or replace it message id tcmayc5nc3e l8a netcom com organization netcom on line communication services guest newsreader tin pl5 references rlglendec5naji ue netcom com distribution na date sat apr gmt lines robert lewis glendenning rlglende netcom com wrote clipper chip is response to the fact that there is no business or professional body in position to establish standard and provide chipsets to implement it for analog or digial transmission systems rsa might be in position to do it if they had active cooperation of couple of manufacturers of cellular phones or desktop phones is rsa independt of the gov enough to spearhead this for one would gladly pay royalties via purchasing secure phones hear hear completely agree that we need to work quickly to establish alternatives to the government clinton clipper as brad templeton and others have noted once the clipper becomes ensconced in enough phones there will be enormous pressure to make it the legal standard and it will become the market standard as well there is lot of confusion in the proposal about whether the use of clipper is mandated about whether non escrow alternatives will be allowed etc there are also unclear issues about how hard or how illegal it will be to make workalikes which meet the standard but which generate phony or untappable keys sure the next several weeks will see these issues thrashed out in this and other groups meanwhile be interested to hear rsa data security reaction often criticized in this group for their licensing policies the usual complaints about mailsafe costing too much at or so and the general issue of software patents we may find that allying ourselves with rsa is the best thing we can do what mere licensing fee when our liberty may be at stake if everyone who wanted true security paid say for lifetime use of all of rsa patents which expire in the period or so then rsa would make tons of money and be happy sure small price to pay for those to whom sounds like too much sure the actual terms could be different spread out over several years whatever to me it small price to pay strong crypto means strong privacy escrowing keys sending copies of keys to large databases and splitting keys into two bit pieces all done with secret and non analyzable protocols and algorithms is not strong crypto whatever some of us may think about the abstract principles of patenting number theory applications this minor issue pales in comparison with the potential dangers of the clipper proposal note that said potential we ll presumably learn more in the coming months the rsa algorithms are at least public have been analyzed and attacked for years and source code is available to better ensure no deliberate weakenesses or trapdoors know of number of groups putting together voice encryption systems using off the shelf hardware like soundblaster boards for the pc and celp type software the new generations of pcs using fast and pentiums are fast enough to do real time voice encryption combined with diffie hellman key exchange this should provide an alternative to the clipper system of course we don really know if the administration proposes to outlaw competing systems it seems to me that their goal of tapping terrorists child pornographers and hilary bashers would be thwarted if low cost alternatives to clipper proliferated not to defend child pornographers or terrorists but limiting basic freedoms to catch few criminals is not the american way of doing things end of soapbox mode suggest we in these groups set aside any differences we may have had with rsa and don look at me have both macpgp and fully legal copy of mailsafe and instead work with them as quickly as we can rsa jim are you listening tim may reserve the right to retract these opinions if it should turn out that rsa data security was involved in the clipper proposal timothy may crypto anarchy encryption digital money tcmay netcom com anonymous networks digital pseudonyms zero knowledge reputations information markets aptos ca black markets collapse of governments higher power public key pgp and mailsafe available newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com emory news feed peachnet edu darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet looking brad from brad clarinet com brad templeton subject re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow organization clarinet communications corp date sat apr gmt message id apr17 clarinet com keywords encryption wiretap clipper key escrow mykotronx references strnlghtc5lgfi jqa netcom com jhessec5lumc ex netcom com rdippold qualcom lines one presumes the system could work as follows blank clips are manufactured by mykotronx and vlsi the number produced is carefully audited and they are shipped to the first escrow house it programs the chips with its half the key and prints out paper slip with the key half and non secret chip serial number the reams of paper are filed in locked boxes in the vault fuse is burnt in the chip so that the key is now unreadable the chip then goes to the next escrow house where the same thing is done this continues through escrow houses perhaps could be more than the last one provides the chip to the cellular phone maker and yes this has to be public key system or it would be almost impossible to handle it might not be rsa but that does not mean that pkp doesn get paid until pkp has the patent on the general concept of public key encryption as well as the particular implementation known as rsa brad templeton clarinet communications corp sunnyvale ca newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech rpi zaphod mps ohio state edu darwin sura net bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu csus edu netcom com jhesse from jhesse netcom com john hesse subject re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow message id jhessec5nehl q9 netcom com keywords encryption wiretap clipper key escrow mykotronx organization netcom online communication services guest references jhessec5lumc ex netcom com qnupd jpm news intercon com date sat apr gmt lines in article qnupd jpm news intercon com amanda intercon com amanda walker writes jhesse netcom com john hesse writes oh great wonderful news nobody can listen in except the feds hey it better than the status quo am far less worried about the feds tapping my phone than high school scanner surfers who get their kicks out of eavesdropping on cellular and cordless phone calls really why are so you worried about high school kids getting their kicks with scanners as compared to what the feds can do and have done to their targets better than the status quo isn good enough say the same technology could be implemented without back door open to the state we all know about power and corruption but we all know that abuse is something that only happens to the other guy amanda walker intercon systems corporation john hesse man jhesse netcom com plan moss beach calif canal bob path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com emory news feed peachnet edu darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu linac att att allegra alice reeds from reeds alice att com jim reeds newsgroups sci crypt subject re patents was rc2 rc4 summary pop patent law message id alice att com date apr gmt article alice references dockmaster ncsc mil eouk5 eoe co uk matt wardibm2 med yale edu organization at bell laboratories murray hill nj lines in article matt wardibm2 med yale edu matt wardsgi med yale edu matt healy writes and bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de vesselin bontchev wrote and ahaley eoe co uk andrew haley writes about coca cola and pepsi cola and what they can teach us surely if we must use pop patent law examples to discuss rc2 and rc4 it would make more sense to consider the case of rc cola jim reeds xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu linac att bu edu acs bu edu uni from uni acs bu edu shaen bernhardt newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee subject re once tapped your code is no good any more message id bu edu date apr gmt references apr17 clarinet com tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com qpg8finn982 dns1 nmsu edu sender news bu edu followup to sci crypt distribution na organization boston university boston ma usa lines in article qpg8finn982 dns1 nmsu edu amolitor nmsu edu andrew molitor writes in article tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com tcmay netcom com timothy may writes but is it any worse than the current unsecure system it becomes much worse of course if the government then uses this clinton clipper to argue for restrictions on unapproved encryption this is the main concern of most of us think the camel nose in the tent etc not to pick on mr may in particular of course but isn this kind of the domino theory when one little country falls its neighbor will surely follow and before you know it we re all mining salt in siberia for not turning in our captain crunch secret decoder rings wish could agree with you ask yourself this why would any private sector entity wish to buy crypto system that was known to be at least partially compromised key escrows in this instance why would any private sector entity wish to buy crypto system that had not been properly evaluated algorythm not publically released the answer seems obvious to me they wouldn there is other hardware out there not compromised des as an example triple des as better one my suspicion is that the prices will drop dramatically on these non clipper systems if not we re in trouble given that the clinton administration is not entirely stupid although we like to think so cannot believe that they have failed to realize this they know their initiative will fail much as crippled des was never taken seriously the only way their moves can work is by coercion you know little about politics if you don realize that this is just first step in the next move it makes no sense otherwise the next move banning or severly crippling crypto not using the clipper system is easily justified why would anyone want other encryption unless they were trying to subvert the government we ve provided you with very secure alternative so use it or go to jail be fined whatever how can you reconcile the administrations self proclaimed purpose of providing law enforcement with access to encrypted data without making the clipper system the only crypto available in the you simply can and the administration knows it anyone who wanted to keep the govt out of their hair be it for drug dealing or whatever would just buy still available non clipper systems don sell our crafty clinton types short they can be that stupid either banning non clipper crypto is the next answer or the administrations collective is about that of potato why do you think at jumped on so fast they know it going to be big and not because it better right on the face of it noone will buy the stuff that doesn have to at must know this too think man why the hell would they jump the gun my interpretation andrew tim may whose sig block may get him busted in the new regime isn this just little melodramatic really wonder to wit the letter just sent to clinton the white house office of the press secretary presidential comment line fax april sir and or madam must object most strongly to the administrations evolving position on encryption and cryptography am shocked at the clinton regimes increasing lean towards authoritarian approach with regard to privacy and freedom from government oversight in day to day life it is apparent to me that those who drafted the clipper chip proposal which is incidentally gaining notoriety as the big brother proposal are either incredibly ignorant or very sly indeed anyone knowledgeable in the nuances of cryptographic development and research must understand that key step in the development of new algorithm especially one destined for standardization is the full disclosure of the algorithm to the private and academic sectors the proper evaluation of an algorithm dep ends on careful scrutiny by these sectors and only such scrutiny can provide true public confidence in the security of the algorithm the assumption that new algorithm will be accepted based on assurances from experts without full disclosure is plain ignorance in addition the assumption that an algorithm will be marketable over other technology such as des when it is characterized by key escrow is lunacy it seems an easy step in the logic chain that probable consumers will prefer to purchase equipment not crippled by government key escrow no matter how tamper proof the key escrows might be cannot believe that even the least educated policy maker would have failed to realize these flaws can only assume then that the drafters of the clipper chip proposal knew very well the difficulties of selling crippled system to the private sector the only way this proposal makes any sense or has any chance of succeeding is in coercion even the language of the proposal makes it painfully clear that the next logical step is the outlawing of other encryption devices and hardware that do not uti lize the big brother chip unfortunately the public at large is not educated enough on the issue to realize what they are losing expect the big brother proposal to encounter little resistance from the american people who you will have so efficiently duped once again with pretty words like harmony right to encryption and voluntary it mortifies me that the phrase that seems to be used more and more often to characterize the clinton administration is can believe it happening here more startling is question colleague of mine posed and the realization that everyday it becomes more and more relevant when is the reichstag fire planned for most concerned signature shaen logan bernhardt uni acs bu edu uni acs bu edu public keys by finger and or request public key archives at pgp public keys junkbox cc iastate edu df610670f2467b99 de2b5c3749148c sovereignty is the sign of brutal past cryptography is not crime fight the big brother proposal path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl olivea uunet news claremont edu jarthur claremont edu ebrandt from ebrandt jarthur claremont edu eli brandt newsgroups sci crypt subject re how to detect use of an illegal cipher message id c5nmb1 cof news claremont edu date apr gmt references betel camelot qnmnp db8 sol tis com apr17 clarinet com sender news news claremont edu the news system organization harvey mudd college claremont ca lines in article apr17 clarinet com brad clarinet com brad templeton writes your honour the suspect suddenly started using another level of cryptography and we can tap his phone calls any more he must have something to hide please sign the warrant to search his house what they would need to do though is make sure that nobody has access to decent crypto in the first place they probably can tell clippered voice from clippered triple desed voice until they get their copy of your key any criminal who going to use encryption will do it under cover of clipper the only way to avoid this will be to try to prohibit strong encryption probably shouldn say this but they could try to detect the use of an illegal cypher by transmitting in the clear some statistical properties of the plaintext an old fashioned wiretap could then detect the use of pre encryption which would drastically increase the measured entropy of the input countermeasure to this would be to use steganographic techniques which put out voice you can tell if the nsa built this feature in blow on the mike and observe whether band of thugs comes through your ceiling pgp key by finger or mail eli ebrandt jarthur claremont edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov nntp server caltech edu hal from hal cco caltech edu hal finney newsgroups sci crypt subject re how does it really work was re text of white house announcement and as on clipper chip encryption date apr gmt organization california institute of technology pasadena lines distribution na message id qq9dbinn7sr gap caltech edu references c5l17v gh5 dove nist gov moose cs indiana edu nntp posting host alumni caltech edu marc vanheyningen mvanheyn cs indiana edu writes the main thing just don get is whether this chip implements symmetric or asymmetric cryptographic techniques anybody know don know but as willing to speculate as anyone several people have suggested that the chips use public key cryptography another possibility is to use diffie hellman key exchange or some other algorithm which has similar effect dh allows both ends to agree on session key which they use with symmetric cryptography something like des for the encryption how could the back door keys work in this system can see few possibilities one is that the dh like algorithm has the property that the session key can be deduced by an eavesdropper who knows the back door keys for one or possibly both communicants perhaps the random numbers used in the dh are seeded by the back door key or some such another possibility as was suggested here earlier is that the chips simply broadcast the session key encrypted with the chip own internal secret key in this system the back door keys are secret keys usable for decrypting this session key broadcast actually the chip secret key doesn need to be public key in this usage but can be identical to the secret back door key this proposal seems most straightforward to me still another possibility is that the encryption algorithm used for the message itself has dual key property that possession of either of two keys can be used to decrypt it one key would be the session key from the dh exchange and the other would be the back door key for the chip it worth noting that one of the proposals dorothy denning raised during her amazingly prescient on line discussion last november and december was variation on diffie hellman in which third party would participate in deriving the session keys this doesn quite fit into what we know of how clipper works but it hints that those who had early knowledge of clipper or whose thinking was somehow synchronized with clipper designers may have had diffie hellman on their minds hal finney newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc news service uci edu ucivax news claremont edu jarthur claremont edu ebrandt from ebrandt jarthur claremont edu eli brandt subject re the battle is joined message id c5nn9i d5q news claremont edu sender news news claremont edu the news system organization harvey mudd college claremont ca references apr16 qualcomm com date sun apr gmt lines in article apr16 qualcomm com karn servo qualcomm com phil karn writes it looks like dorothy denning wrong headed ideas have gotten to the administration even sooner than we feared lay long odds that it was the other way around clinton didn just pull this plan out of any bodily orifices the nsa has to have been working on it for years while it possible that denning and other prominent people just happened to start arguing for such system it seems more likely that there was suggestion involved if this guess is wrong apologize pgp key by finger or mail eli ebrandt jarthur claremont edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech howland reston ans net bogus sura net darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet think com enterpoop mit edu senator bedfellow mit edu news mit edu marc from marc mit edu marc horowitz n1nzu newsgroups sci crypt subject the source of that announcement date apr gmt organization massachusetts institute of technology lines distribution world message id marc apr17211937 oliver mit edu nntp posting host oliver mit edu the message from the nist about the clipper chip comes from the following address clipper csrc ncsl nist gov clipper chip announcement just who is that asked myself or rather asked the computer telnet csrc ncsl nist gov trying connected to csrc ncsl nist gov escape character is first org sendmail nist ready at sat apr edt expn clipper csspab mail gw ncsl nist gov denning cs georgetown edu hoffman seas gwu edu mkapor eff org rotenberg cpsr org rivest mit edu mhellman stanford edu alanrp aol com dparker sri com jim rsa com branstad tis com mgrsplus csmes ncsl nist gov quit first org closing connection connection closed well isn that interesting dorothy denning mitch kapor marc rotenberg ron rivest jim bidzos and others the government rsa tis cpsr and the eff are all represented don suppose anybody within any of these organizations would care to comment or is this just the white house idea of cruel joke on these peoples inboxes marc marc horowitz n1nzu marc mit edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov nntp server caltech edu silly from silly ugcs caltech edu brad threatt newsgroups sci crypt subject remote file system security date apr gmt organization california institute of technology pasadena lines message id qqb8sinn8kj gap caltech edu nntp posting host vex ugcs caltech edu in light of my recent paranoia concerning government proposals love to see unix based encryption scheme that kept some files encrypted on the host machine say all the files in your home directory used key system that could not be compromised by eavesdropping over modem line it seems that this would require modifications to shell program and way of telling whether file was encrypted or not among other things love to know about potential security holes in such system does such system exist if it were made easy to use and readily available think it would be good thing tm realize that this would probably just involve putting nice front end on readily available and very secure encryption scheme but it should be done thanks for the ear brad newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet haven umd edu darwin sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu csus edu netcom com jef from jef netcom com jef poskanzer subject re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow message id jefc5nqhs sy netcom com face upie zmf49l pde nx j22 bouyx42y miety mcm fyd jm lxop b8 ha ef golyu nevymj ue4 h4 kgjmp no ur f6w8 t9bxh reply to jef poskanzer jef netcom com organization paratheo anametamystikhood of eris esoteric references apr17 clarinet com date sun apr gmt lines brad clarinet com brad templeton and yes this has to be public key system or it would be almost impossible to handle it might not be rsa but that does not mean that pkp doesn get paid until pkp has the patent on the general concept of public key encryption as well as the particular implementation known as rsa hmm my first thought was that they re using diffie hellman exponential session key exchange or an equivalent however the diffie hellman patent like the hellman merkle one on public key systems claims all equivalents so the basic point stands interestingly quote from jim bidzos showed up in the media real soon after the announcement and he sounded very pissed maybe he hadn yet realized that pkp might have just struck gold all they have to do is get someone to admit the general scheme that the clipper uses jef jef poskanzer jef netcom com jef well sf ca us an object never serves the same function as its image or its name rene magritte xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech swrinde ringer lonestar utsa edu whughes from whughes lonestar utsa edu william hughes subject re once tapped your code is no good any more message id apr18 ringer cs utsa edu sender news ringer cs utsa edu nntp posting host lonestar utsa edu organization university of texas at san antonio references apr17 clarinet com tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com qpg8finn982 dns1 nmsu edu distribution na date sun apr gmt lines in article qpg8finn982 dns1 nmsu edu amolitor nmsu edu andrew molitor writes in article tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com tcmay netcom com timothy may writes tim may whose sig block may get him busted in the new regime isn this just little melodramatic not at all two weeks ago registered concern about some programming that was being conducted by student organisation here at the university of texas at san antonio as result was interrogated by the capus police who also attempted to create positive identification file photo fingerprints etc refused to permit this and filed complaint with the university administration the vice president for business affairs the boss of the campus police stated that he had no interest in the legal constitutional implications of those actions the greatest threat facing the citizens of the united states in the decade of the is the united states government at all levels federal state local all opinions are mine and reserve the right to deny them at any time wwh newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net agate linus linus mitre org bistromath mitre org ptrei from ptrei bistromath mitre org peter trei subject re fifth amendment and passwords message id apr18 linus mitre org sender news linus mitre org news service nntp posting host bistromath mitre org organization the mitre corporation references c5jzsz jzo cs uiuc edu apr16 linus mitre org apr17 sugra uucp date sun apr gmt lines in article apr17 sugra uucp ken sugra uucp kenneth ng writes in article apr16 linus mitre org ptrei bistromath mitre org peter trei writes judge grant you immunity from whatever may be learned from the key itself you the keyphrase is confess to deliberately evading copyright the file encoded with this keyphrase contains illegal scans of copyrighted peanuts strips judge and cp oh how will they get you now not saying that they won or can or even that they shouldn but what legal mechanism will they use should we be crossposting this to misc legal hm could another court try you via bypass of the double jeopardy amendment like they are doing in the lapd trial ie your judge is state judge and then federal judge retries you under the justification that its not the same trail no the lapd officers were tried first by the state of california on charges of police brutality and secondly by the federal government on depriving rk of his civil rights different crime the scenario outline is more similar to the oliver north trial ollie confessed to treason aiding an enemy of the us during senate hearings under immunity the team which was later to prosecute him on criminal charges had to sequester itself from all reports of on immunized testimony on lawyer brought up the probability that at least someone on the team had heard about the senate testimony and it was strong factor against the prosecution which is one of the reasons this on is still walking around free today peter trei ptrei mitre org path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet enterpoop mit edu senator bedfellow mit edu athena mit edu wesommer from wesommer mit edu bill sommerfeld newsgroups sci crypt subject re the source of that announcement date apr gmt organization massachusetts institute of technology lines distribution world message id wesommer apr17231535 bill the cat mit edu references marc apr17211937 oliver mit edu nntp posting host bill the cat mit edu in reply to marc mit edu message of apr gmt telnet csrc ncsl nist gov trying connected to csrc ncsl nist gov escape character is first org sendmail nist ready at sat apr edt expn clipper csspab mail gw ncsl nist gov denning cs georgetown edu hoffman seas gwu edu mkapor eff org rotenberg cpsr org rivest mit edu mhellman stanford edu alanrp aol com dparker sri com jim rsa com branstad tis com mgrsplus csmes ncsl nist gov quit first org closing connection connection closed note also telnet csmes ncsl nist gov trying connected to csmes ncsl nist gov escape character is csmes ncsl nist gov sendmail nist rbj dougm ready at sat apr edt expn mgrsplus mcnulty ecf ncsl nist gov irene gilbert igilbert dennis branstad branstad robert rosenthal rmr gene troy troy smid st1 ncsl nist gov dennis steinauer dds katzke st1 ncsl nist gov telnet mail gw ncsl nist gov trying connected to mail gw ncsl nist gov escape character is mail gw ncsl nist gov sendmail rbj jck ready at sat apr edt expn csspab burrows ecf mcnulty ecf bill colvin colvin gangemi dockmaster ncsc mil john kuyers kuyers slambert cgin cto citicorp com lipner mitre org gallagher dockmaster ncsc mil cindy rand postmaster dot gov walker tis com willis rand org eddie zeitler zeitler cris castro castro whitehurst vnet ibm com telnet st1 ncsl nist gov trying connected to st1 ncsl nist gov escape character is st1 ncsl nist gov sendmail nbs rbj ready at sat apr edt expn smid miles smid smid expn katzke stuart katzke katzke quit st1 ncsl nist gov closing connection connection closed by foreign host telnet ecf ncsl nist gov trying connected to ecf ncsl nist gov escape character is ecf ncsl nist gov tgv multinet smtp service ready expn burrows burrows james burrows expn mcnulty mcnulty lynn mcnulty quit ecf ncsl nist gov tgv multinet smtp service complete whois rs internic net first org national institute of standards and technology first dom a216 nist gaithersburg md domain name first org administrative contact wack john jpw18 wack enh nist gov fts technical contact zone contact hunt craig cwh3 hunt enh nist gov fts record last updated on dec domain servers in listed order dove nist gov ames arc nasa gov the internic registration services host only contains internet information networks asn domains and poc please use the whois server at nic ddn mil for milnet information newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu jebright from jebright magnus acs ohio state edu james ebright subject re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow message id apr18 magnus acs ohio state edu keywords encryption wiretap clipper key escrow mykotronx sender news magnus acs ohio state edu nntp posting host top magnus acs ohio state edu organization the ohio state university references rand org strnlghtc5lgfi jqa netcom com apr17 clarinet com date sun apr gmt lines in article brad clarinet com brad templeton writes the greatest danger of the escrow database if it were kept on disk would be the chance that complete copy could somehow leak out you of course then it hard to backup however think the consequences of no backup the data is not there when warrant comes are worse than the consequences of secret backup if the data isn there when the warrant comes you effectively have secure crypto if secret backups are kept then you effectively have no crypto thus this poster is essentialy arguing no crypto is better than secure crypto if the data isn there when the warrant comes then the government will just have to use normal law enforcement techniques to catch crooks is this so bad btw bugging isn yet normal law enforcement technique with the privacy clipper it will become normal technique jim information farming at for addr phone finger the ohio state university jebright magnus acs ohio state edu jim ebright mail jre osu edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech enterpoop mit edu senator bedfellow mit edu athena mit edu sethf from sethf athena mit edu seth finkelstein newsgroups sci crypt subject re the source of that announcement date apr gmt organization massachvsetts institvte of technology lines distribution world message id qqi4ainn4ks senator bedfellow mit edu references marc apr17211937 oliver mit edu wesommer apr17231535 bill the cat mit edu nntp posting host frumious bandersnatch mit edu also note from branstad tis com and walker tis com whois rs internic net tis dom trusted information systems inc tis dom washington road route glenwood md domain name tis com administrative contact walker stephen stw3 walker tis com technical contact zone contact dalva david did1 dave tis com record last updated on jul domain servers in listed order tis com la tis com and dockmaster is an infamous address seth finkelstein sethf athena mit edu the road to hell is paved with good intentions newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net newsserver jvnc net howland reston ans net noc near net lynx mkagalen from mkagalen lynx dac northeastern edu michael kagalenko subject re how to detect use of an illegal cipher message id apr18 lynx dac northeastern edu organization northeastern university boston ma usa references qnmnp db8 sol tis com apr17 clarinet com c5nmb1 cof news claremont edu date sun apr gmt lines in article c5nmb1 cof news claremont edu ebrandt jarthur claremont edu eli brandt writes probably shouldn say this but they could try to detect the use of an illegal cypher by transmitting in the clear some statistical properties of the plaintext an old fashioned wiretap could then detect the use of pre encryption which would drastically increase the measured entropy of the input countermeasure to this would be to use steganographic techniques which put out voice this way to detect pre encryption may be defeated one can do transformation of the spectrum of encrypted signal just by adding some pre arranged in the beginning of communication function think so say you can do fft of your encrypted signal just thinking for pgp2 public key finger mkagalen lynx dac northeastern edu newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu csus edu netcom com strnlght from strnlght netcom com david sternlight subject re once tapped your code is no good any more message id strnlghtc5nrhw qb netcom com organization dsi uscrpac references tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com qpg8finn982 dns1 nmsu edu bu edu distribution na date sun apr gmt lines in article bu edu uni acs bu edu shaen bernhardt writes wish could agree with you ask yourself this why would any private sector entity wish to buy crypto system that was known to be at least partially compromised key escrows in this instance why would any private sector entity wish to buy crypto system that had not been properly evaluated algorythm not publically released the answer seems obvious to me they wouldn there is other hardware out there not compromised des as an example triple des as better one what follows is my opinion it is not asserted to be the truth so no flames please it comes out of background of years as senior corporate staff executive in two fortune companies be happy to use crypto system supplied by the nsa for business if they told me it was more secure than des and in particular resistant to attempts by japanese french and other competitive companies and governments to break be happy to do so even with escrowed keys provided was happy about the bona fides of the escrow agencies the federal reserve would certainly satisfy me as would something set up by one of the big accounting firms trust the nsa or the president if they stated there were no trap doors be even happier if committee of independent experts examined the thing under seal of secrecy and reported back that it was secure trust something from the nsa long before trust something from some swiss or anybody japanese this may seem surprising to some here but suggest most corporations would feel the same way most many some pick one corporations have an attitude that the nsa is part of our government and we support our government as one very famous ceo put it to me one day just some perspective from another point of view david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu pitt edu dsinc ub clarkson sunspot ece clarkson edu tuinstra from tuinstra sunspot ece clarkson edu soe dwight tuinstra newsgroups sci crypt subject re wh announcement message id apr18 news clarkson edu date apr gmt sender news news clarkson edu reply to tuinstra sunspot ece clarkson edu soe organization sun microsystems inc lines nntp posting host sunspot ece clarkson edu cc tuinstra who was consulted the congress industry we have on going discussions with congress and industry on encryption issues and expect those discussions to intensify as we carry out our review of encryption policy we have briefed members of congress and industry leaders on the decisions related to this initiative congress so we re playing politics before we talk to cpsr academia the public internet users ve heard of top down design but top down democracy just whose state district are the chip manufacturers in if the administration were unable to find technological solution like the one proposed would the administration be willing to use legal remedies to restrict access to more powerful encryption devices this is fundamental policy question which will be considered during the broad policy review bs about the wonderfulness of the key escrow system the administration is not saying since encryption threatens the public safety and effective law enforcement we will prohibit it outright as some countries have effectively done they ll just provide an easily compromised version to jq public nor is the saying that every american as matter of right is entitled to an unbreakable commercial encryption product maybe we need cra cryptographic rights amendment there is false tension created in the assessment that this issue is an either or proposition rather both concerns can be and in fact are harmoniously balanced through reasoned balanced approach such as is proposed with the clipper chip and similar encryption techniques nice lullaby but why am not soothed also in article leland stanford edu arc leland stanford edu andrew richard conway writes can work out why the us government doesn want to sell them overseas after all they are rather easy for us interests to decode so make perfect tool for industrial military espionage lulling anyone stupid enough to buy it into false sense of security you will notice that there is no mention anywhere about safety for non americans why repeat themselves it appears to some and the story looks pretty convincing to me too that the justice department stole case tracking system modified it and distributed it to friendly police and suchlike agencies around the world eg the canadian mounties of course have no doubt they swore scout honor that there were no backdoors with that kind of intelligence who want to be swamped with terabytes of commercial traffic dwight tuinstra best tuinstra sandman ece clarkson edu tolerable tuinstrd craft camp clarkson edu homo sapiens planetary cancer news at six newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu swrinde network ucsd edu qualcom qualcomm com qualcom rdippold from rdippold qualcomm com ron asbestos dippold subject re the battle is joined message id rdippold qualcom originator rdippold qualcom qualcomm com sender news qualcomm com nntp posting host qualcom qualcomm com organization qualcomm inc san diego ca references apr16 qualcomm com c5nn9i d5q news claremont edu date sun apr gmt lines in article apr16 qualcomm com karn servo qualcomm com phil karn writes it looks like dorothy denning wrong headed ideas have gotten to the administration even sooner than we feared if the administration is this far along is it possible that the government been working on it for while and has been using the dennings to prime the pump so to speak or as the judas goat whether paid off just gullible or what doesn really matter it might also be possible that the nsa whoever has had the idea for this for quite while has been promoting it denning et al and siezed the new opportunity new administration who wants to spend more money on espionage than bush did whatever not so sure that the cause effect order is totally obvious you will lose your drug free and proud ribbon two days later you will catch neighborhood kid smoking it newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net agate linus linus mitre org bistromath mitre org ptrei from ptrei bistromath mitre org peter trei subject re the battle is joined message id apr18 linus mitre org sender news linus mitre org news service nntp posting host bistromath mitre org organization the mitre corporation references apr16 qualcomm com c5nn9i d5q news claremont edu date sun apr gmt lines in article c5nn9i d5q news claremont edu ebrandt jarthur claremont edu eli brandt writes in article apr16 qualcomm com karn servo qualcomm com phil karn writes it looks like dorothy denning wrong headed ideas have gotten to the administration even sooner than we feared lay long odds that it was the other way around clinton didn just pull this plan out of any bodily orifices the nsa has to have been working on it for years first heard rumors of similar government proposal in risks digest in or peter trei ptrei mitre org newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net uunet uunet ca canrem dosgate dosgate dan mckinnon canrem com from dan mckinnon dan mckinnon canrem com subject clipper chip message id apr17 dosgate reply to dan mckinnon dan mckinnon canrem com organization canada remote systems distribution sci date apr est lines have lurked here bit lately and though some of the math is unknown to me found it interesting thought would post an article found in the saturday april toronto star clipper chip to protect privacy washington reuter president bill clinton announced yesterday plan to plant new clipper chip in every government telephone and computer line to prevent eavesdropping eventually the chips developed by the government national institute for standards and technology would be used by commercial and private electronics communication users the white house said that to assure privacy each device containing the encryption devices would be assigned two unique keys numbers that will be needed by government agencies to decode messages the attorney general has been assigned the task of arranging that the keys are deposited in two key escrow data bases access to them would be limited to government officials with legal authorization to conduct wiretap the white house said in statement dan mckinnon canada remote systems toronto ontario newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu wupost csus edu netcom com tcmay from tcmay netcom com timothy may subject re the source of that announcement message id tcmayc5o715 mrs netcom com organization netcom on line communication services guest newsreader tin pl5 references marc apr17211937 oliver mit edu date sun apr gmt lines marc horowitz n1nzu marc mit edu wrote the message from the nist about the clipper chip comes from the following address clipper csrc ncsl nist gov clipper chip announcement just who is that asked myself or rather asked the computer telnet csrc ncsl nist gov list of name elided for brevity well isn that interesting dorothy denning mitch kapor marc rotenberg ron rivest jim bidzos and others the government rsa tis cpsr and the eff are all represented don suppose anybody within any of these organizations would care to comment or is this just the white house idea of cruel joke on these peoples inboxes know that at least one person on that list says the first he heard of clipper was in the friday morning newspaper and another has already fired off letter of protest to nist my point suspect this list interesting as it is for various reasons does not represent the cabal that put this proposal together some of them yes others no this may be nothing more than mailing list of people who get crypto related announcements from nsa er mean nist tim may timothy may crypto anarchy encryption digital money tcmay netcom com anonymous networks digital pseudonyms zero knowledge reputations information markets aptos ca black markets collapse of governments higher power public key pgp and mailsafe available xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp org acm sci crypt comp security misc comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu swrinde network ucsd edu pacbell com amdahl key news zeev from zeev ccc amdahl com ze ev wurman newsgroups comp org acm sci crypt comp security misc comp org ieee subject is there any security in the clipper date apr organization amdahl corp sunnyvale ca lines message id zeev apr18014822 sepia ccc amdahl com nntp posting host sepia key amdahl com it seems to me that all discussions about clipper security are almost irrelevant if cannot choose the key but have to use key chosen for me by the foundry the security of the whole universe of users is as good or as bad as the security of vlsi technologies inc it is trivial effort to run any ciphertext agains all the keys ever manufactured after all we are talking about to million keys that will ever be manufactured the key depositories can be as secure and incorruptible as they wish to be nobody cares anyway now if someone would convince me that the shipping docks of vti att and others are impenetrable remember the chips have to ship with the key you or the dealer are going to submit it to the authorities eventually be bit happier but do we really believe that the various governments including ours won have the full lists of all the keys ever manufactured did miss something here my own opinions quite obviously from ze ev wurman email zeev key amdahl com or zeev ccc amdahl com organization amdahl corp landing parkway freemont ca phone office fax attn zeev wurman path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech enterpoop mit edu senator bedfellow mit edu news mit edu warlord from warlord mit edu derek atkins newsgroups sci crypt subject re the old key registration idea date apr gmt organization massachusetts institute of technology lines message id warlord apr18051159 hodge mit edu references qn1ic hp6 access digex net nntp posting host hodge mit edu in reply to pcw access digex com message of apr begin pgp signed message in article qn1ic hp6 access digex net pcw access digex com peter wayner writes the system is vulnerable to simple phone swapping attacks like this criminals will quickly figure this out and go to town depends its possible that the phone sends its serial number in the clear at some specified interval so all listener needs to do is get that sn and then get the key for it so swapping phones isn problem for the gov that is they still know that this line belongs to you so they just watch the line and see the sn and then they get the key for that sn in either case think we need to look at this bit deeper jbl mw wxld2 well think this is understood the major problem is that lot of people just don trust this key escrow stuff and the fact that the algorithms are classified so yes lot of this needs to be looked at closer derek pgp key available upon request on the key server pgp public keys toxicwaste mit edu begin pgp signature version iqbuagubk9ebxdh0k1zbsgrxaqhzcalcalvwtnvi7ayswf565id1mn nsybtwqi jqlgpkx tx6qjgc69buqrzatmqutkovnvx mqt5ezfm7uundrwd4cowbb7cc4gy gt7jtlrqu0af9vsf4sgnqqg fgrj end pgp signature derek atkins mit electrical engineering and computer science secretary mit student information processing board sipb mit media laboratory speech research group warlord mit edu pp asel n1nwh xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu news admin policy comp admin policy sci crypt comp mail mime path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov isolar isolar not for mail from earle isolar tujunga ca us greg earle newsgroups news admin policy comp admin policy sci crypt comp mail mime subject re pem and mime followup to comp mail mime date apr organization personal usenet site tujunga ca usa lines distribution world message id qq3fk s7q isolar tujunga ca us references qfi4binnqk3 shelley washington edu qg8m2 e5 nigel msen com in article qg8m2 e5 nigel msen com emv garnet msen com edward vielmetti writes newell jr wcn washington edu wrote before we can have global multimedia mail solution there must be some definition of minimum service level and mime does not provide for this yet before the internet will invest in software people need to see content would suggest that attractive mime formatted news messages day would be sufficient to get few people thinking about adding mime support to news readers esp if the content is really worth it imho we have long way to go before the unix specific muas newsreaders etc reach the service levels of the other commercial platforms there ought to be such definition consisting of known object data types and rules for their handling included in the transport specification document yes but there is also long way to go before most mac pc and windows muas and newsreaders are ready to handle the sheer volume of news and mail that many unix specific tools are able to cope with when the choice is more feechurs or make the damn thing fast enough to keep up with the flood you have to bet that fast enough wins ed as usual makes very good point one time friend of mine at sun sent me an mail he composed it using the sun openwindows mailtool which handles non mime attachments and the like since don use mailtool had to manually save it cut paste and then uudecode the actual attachment what got after not inconsiderable amount of time spent doing this was an audio file the original message was over kb of mail headers and uuencoded data the resulting audio message was single sentence that transcribed as character message if he had sent me the sentence in plain text the mail would have been around bytes and it would have taken me about seconds to process it at most instead it was and it took at least minute complete waste of my time and bandwidth as far as concerned sending plain text is still the most efficient method of transmission given the same transport mechanism shudder to think what would happen if everyone started posting their usenet articles as audio files instead of plain text meltdown of the net predicted film at eleven back to mono this sub thread no longer has anything to do with pem or administrative policy so ve redirected followups back to comp mail mime greg greg earle phone fax internet earle isolar tujunga ca us uucp isolar earle elroy jpl nasa gov elroy isolar earle path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net paladin american edu news univie ac at fstgds15 tu graz ac at fstgds15 tu graz ac at schinagl from schinagl fstgds15 tu graz ac at hermann schinagl newsgroups sci crypt subject need source of feal encrytion algorithm date apr gmt organization technical university of graz austria lines message id qr8duinnj4a fstgds15 tu graz ac at nntp posting host fstgds15 tu graz ac at newsreader tin version pl9 hi am interested in the source of feal encryption algorithm does someone of you know where can get the source from or where can find documentation about feal thanks in advance ciao hermann please email me xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com network ucsd edu mvb saic com unogate news service uci edu ucivax ucla cs ucla se wright ygoland from ygoland wright seas ucla edu the jester newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee subject re don fight clipper chip subvert or replace it message id ygoland wright date apr gmt references apr17 clarinet com tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com rlglendec5naji ue netcom com sender news seas ucla edu followup to sci crypt distribution na lines the clipper chip is just the culmination of dorthy denning et all but lets ignore that for the moment the fundamental question is can the government stop me from using encryption ignoring for the moment the question of patented processes such as public keys can the government stop me from using an encryption process if the answer is yes then what freedom we have in this country is truly gone and its time to get out the guns or the lawyers depending upon which causes more damage and to whom however assuming that can still encrypt things as please who cares about the clipper chip as far as concerned phone line is insecure period don care if they encrypt it ways from sunday if didn do the encrypting don trust it this is the attitude that everyone else should have instead of worrying about clipper chip simply connect your handset to your computer and feed the voice single through process encrypt and transmit over the phone the guy on the other hand then does the same in reverse can work you say no standard you say obviously you have never uses pgp anyone who expects the government to protect their freedoms is kidding themselves only you can protect your own freedoms one final thought addressed to eff do you support the implementation of any form of encryption where the encryption key must be revealed if you do why if not why what specific actions are you planning to take to either support or stop this proposal if you do not support this proposal what alternatives do you offer the jester proof windows is virus it is very widespread it eats up your disk space it slows down your computer it takes control over your computer it performs disk access at random times it displays silly messages on your screen it randomly crashes the computer vesselin path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu ub clarkson sunspot ece clarkson edu tuinstra from tuinstra sunspot ece clarkson edu soe dwight tuinstra newsgroups sci crypt subject wh proposal from police point of view message id apr18 news clarkson edu date apr gmt sender news news clarkson edu reply to tuinstra sunspot ece clarkson edu soe organization sun microsystems inc lines nntp posting host sunspot ece clarkson edu it might pay to start looking at what this proposal might mean to police agency it just might be bad idea for them too ok suppose the ny state police want to tap suspect phone they need warrant just like the old days but unlike the old days they now need to get two federal agencies to give them the two parts of the key now what happens if there tiff between the two escrow houses posession release of keys becomes political bargaining chit state and lower level police agencies have to watch the big boys play politics while potentially good leads disappear lives and property are lost statutes of limitations run out etc not to mention moderately clever person who suspects the police are after her him will be buying new phones faster than tap requests can be processed or using stolen ones will the turing police come and arrest you for transmitting without dialing license there also bureacracy and security problems within each escrow house how will requests for key disclosure be authenticated put in enough safeguards of the kind bureaucrats and activists feel comfortable with and it might take long time to get that key even when request is approved how is the key going to be disclosed will it be encrypted by clipper type chip for transmission in bureaucracy the size of the federal government with databank of the necessary size and data traffic of the projected volume there going to be lot of weak links how many of these kinds of problems will be open for public or expert scrutiny furthermore the feds might be leery of handing completed keys around even to state police agencies trust and security issue this would be an especially acute issue if some other state police had mishandled key resulting in lawsuits financial settlements and political embarassment so the feds implement it this way some federal agency gets the keys performs the tap and turns the results over to the ny state police but let say cuomo been causing some problems over clinton aid to urban areas proposal or there just happens to be turf war going on between the state cops and the justice department on case now not only do we have the keys as political chit we have an extra player in the game and we have the tap tapes as another bargaining chit again the state police lose understand that legal wiretaps are quite expensive to maintain in scenario who pays the bill dwight tuinstra best tuinstra sandman ece clarkson edu tolerable tuinstrd craft camp clarkson edu homo sapiens planetary cancer news at six xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech swrinde sdd hp com network ucsd edu munnari oz au bruce cs monash edu au monu6 dec05 cs monash edu au bena from bena dec05 cs monash edu au ben aveling subject re text of white house announcement and as on clipper chip encryption message id apr18 monu6 cc monash edu au followup to sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee sender news monu6 cc monash edu au usenet system organization computer science monash university australia newsreader tin version pl8 references apr16 leland stanford edu date sun apr gmt lines andrew richard conway arc leland stanford edu wrote can work out why the us government doesn want to sell them overseas after all they are rather easy for us interests to decode so make perfect tool for industrial military espionage lulling anyone stupid enough to buy it into false sense of security you will notice that there is no mention anywhere about safety for non americans don forget you are in the country that wouldn let the russians buy apple ii because of security concerns ben bena bruce cs monash edu au path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet enterpoop mit edu senator bedfellow mit edu athena mit edu jfc from jfc athena mit edu john carr newsgroups sci crypt subject re don fight clipper chip subvert or replace it date apr gmt organization massachusetts institute of technology lines distribution na message id qri7pinngj8 senator bedfellow mit edu references tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com rlglendec5naji ue netcom com ygoland wright nntp posting host achates mit edu in article ygoland wright ygoland wright seas ucla edu the jester writes ignoring for the moment the question of patented processes such as public keys can the government stop me from using an encryption process following precedent in other areas the government is likely to put tax on encryption technology once the tax is imposed it becomes federal matter and suspicision of an unlicensed cryptographic tool will bring the batf or fbi tossing grenades into your house the batf appears to be the logical agency to enforce such regulations federal control over alocohol tobacco and firearms is similary based on taxes look at the fcc they won allow sale of any receiever that can receive bands that are supposed to be private this has nothing to do with any desire to prevent harmful interference if the government can make radio receiver illegal what makes you think they won claim the right to control encryption john carr jfc athena mit edu newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net wupost emory sol ctr columbia edu ira uka de math fu berlin de news netmbx de germany eu net mcsun uknet pipex ibmpcug demon gtoal from graham toal gtoal gtoal com subject re the battle is joined message id c5o4wa mz2 demon co uk originator gtoal pizzabox demon co uk sender news demon co uk nntp posting host pizzabox demon co uk reply to graham toal gtoal gtoal com organization cuddlehogs anonymous references apr16 qualcomm com c5nn9i d5q news claremont edu date sun apr gmt lines in article c5nn9i d5q news claremont edu ebrandt jarthur claremont edu eli brandt writes in article apr16 qualcomm com karn servo qualcomm com phil karn writes it looks like dorothy denning wrong headed ideas have gotten to the administration even sooner than we feared lay long odds that it was the other way around clinton didn just pull this plan out of any bodily orifices the nsa has to have been working on it for years while it possible that denning and other prominent people just happened to start arguing for such system it seems more likely that there was suggestion involved if this guess is wrong apologize sure dorothy denning is an honest person and wouldn lie to us simply think up question to ask her about her involvement but be very careful to phrase it in such way that there can be no jesuitical evasion or true but wholly misleading answer in this country mi5 are experts at answering these questions for instance there was british journalist jonathon moyle killed in south america couple of years ago parliament asked was he an mi5 employee no turns out afterwards he wasn paid therefore wasn an employee they could equally have said he wasn an agent he went abroad on his private business with no brief from mi5 but was interviewed and debriefed at length only on his return path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net wupost udel news intercon com digex com digex com not for mail from steve access digex com steve brinich newsgroups sci crypt subject re text of white house announcement and as on clipper chip encryption date apr organization express access online communications greenbelt md usa lines distribution na message id qrubp fcp access digex net references c5l17v gh5 dove nist gov bontchev fbihh nntp posting host access digex net the dead giveaway is the repeated protestations that the new plan is aimed at criminals drug dealers terrorists etc you think the tactic would be too obvious to trot out yet again after decade of sarah and the rest of the brady bunch using it to destroy the second amendment but evidently the control nuts feel it will serve them one more time as far as the export needs of american companies are concerned could almost believe that the plan to saddle the us industry with hidden sabotaged algorithm was invented by cabal of japanese lobbyists xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse flop engr orst edu gaia ucs orst edu connected com beauty rwing pat from pat rwing uucp pat myrto newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee subject re once tapped your code is no good any more message id rwing uucp date apr gmt article rwing references apr17 clarinet com tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com apr17 clarinet com distribution na organization totally unorganized lines in article apr17 clarinet com brad clarinet com brad templeton writes in article tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com tcmay netcom com timothy may writes getting the court order to reveal the key also makes decipherable all past conversations which may be on tape or disk or whatver as understand the proposal could be wrong but ve seen no mention of session keys being the escrowed entities true in theory in practice the technology of cellular phones will probably be spread spectrum and quite difficult to record the crypttext without the key if the frequency path depends on they key as understand it to it could be made effectively impossible to record am not an expert in the cryptography science but some basic things seem evident to me things which this clinton clipper do not address the all pertain to opportunites for abuse and conclusions based on what have seen the membership of this group except for two notable persons agree to if anything bad is possible by the government in theory it almost always ends up happening in fact so the key is to make abuse impossible question authority and remember power does corrupt think one has to regard this whole idea in the sense that it will be expanded to include other data forms such as data transfer and stored data and as such should be treated as if it were expanded or such expansion will be almost impossible to stop using clipper as precident there was hint of that in the proposal remember that said please bear with me am not very articulate so take more words to say what others could say much more briefly thank you once it hits land you can record it if you have telco access the telco isn supposed to give that without warrant that the rule today as suggested this is now the hint is in the proposal that this or similar proposals are being considered for other forms of encryptions such as data transfer data files and such largely dependent on how this thing is accepted or flies think one would be wise to treat this in the manner one would when not if it gets expanded to other areas than cellular phones think this is guaranteed to happen if this proposal gets by salami politics it has been and is used in several other areas it is certain to be used here government is not going to easily give up on the idea that they should be able to eavesedrop whenever they want to court order required has proven to be rather flimsy guarantee if the case warrants they can always sieze the material and force one to give the key or sit in jail forever on periodically renewed contempt charges so it is not denying the justice system the information nor the ability to lock someone up if guilty or refuses to divulge the means to access the info this is not protected under the fifth one can be forced to perform acts that would result in divulging incriminating evidence so blocking restrictions on private encryption is not preventing legitimate law enforcement it does make illegitimate law enforcement bunch more difficult especially fishing expeditions without the target knowlege don give up the right to be safe from that that should be non negotiable and clinton and co know it which is probably why they quietly developed this thing figuring if they get it this far they can ram it on through how come those consulted could be roughly described as us insiders they cannot quietely impliment it though when they ban other schemes to ensure its exclusive use hence the nice pr document to try and reassure everyone don buy into it has government really earned that kind of trust past or future to be secure and free one must keep government honest and the only way to do that is to make abuse impossible not unlikely or difficult but even so the evidence would not be admissible think unless the judge so ordered think that even interception of the crypttext without warrant would be illegal cops can record today plain cellular calls and then ask judge hey can we have permission to listen to those tapes can they so what one could use information gained by re use of the keys saved after the last case was finished or other means master key backdoor easily broken algorithm to find other evidence which given to judge would authorize tap which wouldn have been possible otherwise this has been the more common manner of abuse of wiretaps in the past for local cops this might be workable to keep them honest but the feds have workaround somehow bet on it does anyone really believe for example that the government will use scheme nsa cannot listen in on scanning for keywords either easily defeated in realtime or via master key sure don this whole thing sounds like something to eliminate the need to use old fashioned police work to build case in the past eavesdropping was rather easy with or without court order think the law enforcement community has become bit spoiled and will resist changes that require them to revert to using old fashioned detective work just find it somewhat surprising coming from bunch that cares so much about civil and individual rights that puts people first the question is put people first to where with the innards not being revealed how is one to be sure there doesn exist master key for use by nsa etc so they can do their keyword scan etc on conversations they routinely monitor without specific court order remember the cellular phone limitiation is only temporary bet on it and so far have not heard about police telling people that they have been tapped and nothing incriminating was found what is to keep them from simply keeping the keys on file for next time after awhile they would have quite collection kept especially for folks they deem disruptive and if they get only one key that would reduce the search space lot unless it is an rsa scheme remember nixon years need for court orders really slowed them down didn it and unless the escrow accounts are not government controlled fat chance see one ending up being under say treasury the other under justice it could be worth some serious bucks to some folks to get keys to competitor clinton clipper or descendent when this idea is expanded to be used for all non government encryption enough bucks would get one the keys or the innards for this algorithm perhaps not an important concern but given past government behavior and the other problems worse of course if the government then uses this clinton clipper to argue for restrictions on unapproved encryption this is the main concern of most of us think the camel nose in the tent etc yes that is major concern but think that they think they can win just by having of the usa use this system they don even have to care about the cautious that left they don catch the really smart crooks anyway john gotti who would have to be retarded not to realize he was likely to be wiretapped glibly chatted away on his tapped phone about murder plans that why he in jail now hard to believe but true what will one do when it is expanded to data storage encryption you can bet that if clipper is accepted that will be next on the agenda it is even hinted at in the proposal read it carefully expect the argumet well if you got nothing to hide fine then using that argument one should not object to video cameras being installed in every room of one home granted an exteme expansion of the idea but the principle holds private stuff should remain private even from govt fishing expedition and laws rules may change in the future as to safeguards when it comes to the fed government safeguards are pretty meaningless if they want to do get something don work so hard to give up some rather treasured rights or establish bad precidents please the price could be hell to pay later this scheme can succeed without laws forbidding more which people would fight lot harder they like this enough that they are dropping the so called digital telephony proposal according to rumours however the meaning of that is complex since they still want to get at the crypttext on telco systems and that requires bit of work people would fight laws forbidding more now but in say two years because we have this crisis situation which must be addressed by some drastic action just this added reasonable restriction will only bother those who have someting to hide etc please don buy into it if the clinton clipper is so very good why not make its algrithm public so many people can exchange ideas and examine it rather than few isolated respected experts respected by whom for what perhaps certain professor who likes key banks would be one of the selected experts this does seem to expand on some ideas the person was advocating if recall how would anybody know that what the experts examine is the same as what will end up being used in the clipper chip if it is kept secret perhaps the clipper will use crippled version with master key provision or features not present in the version subjected for study and evaluation by the experts and who chooses the expertes the government no conflict of interest there and isn it requirement for any decent encryption scheme that it not have its effectiveness reduced by having the algrorithm widely known was lead to believe that one should assume the other side has everything you have except for the key recall ideas presented to this group are rejected if requirement exists the algorithm be secret another question since it is safe bet this clipper thing would not be used for government security they are regarding it as not real secure but good enough for common folk think would like to see full description not pr non statement of just what good enough means think when saying how strong it is good enough really means not very the excuse that other countries have these restrictions is not acceptable other countries do not have our bill of rights and constitution which the people not the governments of those other countries often regard with envy what we have as rights they have as revokable privileges and if we expect to retain those rights and protections we must not allow them to be gutted because we just gotta have this thing to fight crime we have allready have our bill of rights pretty much torn to shreds we should not permit more weakining for yet another noble cause instead we should be trying to repair the damage our crime problem may have number of causes but too many rights and safeguards is not signifigant one broken court system and poor police work are much more signifigant cause as having too many rights disregarding addressing the root causes for crime etc btw those who suggest that this is just an attack on clinton believe this would be going ballistic reagardless who seriously proposed this thing it is just another step in gradual erosion of our rights under the constitution or bill of rights the last couple of decades have been non stop series of end runs around the protections of the constitution it has to stop now is as good time as any if it isn too late allready brad templeton clarinet communications corp sunnyvale ca pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle wa if all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and am not sure about the former albert einstien xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net news centerline com uunet grebyn escom al from al escom com al donaldson subject re once tapped your code is no good any more message id apr18 escom com reply to al escom com al donaldson organization escom corp oakton va usa references apr17 clarinet com tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com qpg8finn982 dns1 nmsu edu distribution na date sun apr gmt lines amolitor nmsu edu andrew molitor writes yes those evil guys in the fbi can probably with some effort abuse the system got news for you if the evil guys in the fbi decide they want to persecute you they re gonna and if richard nixon had had this kind of toy he wouldn have had to send people into the watergate but that not really the issue the real issue is whether this will be used to justify ban against individuals use of private anything else encryption methods unrelated question isn the term clipper as neat as it is already taken by intergraph al path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net spool mu edu uwm edu msuinfo scss3 cl msu edu mrr from mrr scss3 cl msu edu mark riordan newsgroups sci crypt subject re source of random bits on unix workstation date apr gmt organization michigan state university lines message id qs6cg cq msuinfo cl msu edu references pivot sbi com nntp posting host scss3 cl msu edu newsreader tin version pl8 bennett todd salomon brothers inc ny bet sbi com wrote however unless missed something the only source they suggested aside from hardware rng that seems available and unguessable by an intruder when unix is fresh booted is buffers related to network traffic believe my solution basically uses that strategy without requiring me to reach into the kernel few more sources are statistics on your filesystems easily and quickly obtained and the output from the rusage system call you can also exec finger to one or more favorite heavily used systems though this can take several seconds cf the source code to ripem on ripem msu edu mark newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net sol ctr columbia edu eff ddsw1 chinet schneier from schneier chinet chi il us bruce schneier subject re an open letter to mr clinton message id c5oy0z ily chinet chi il us organization chinet public access unix references apr16 yuma acns colostate edu strnlghtc5m2cv hx netcom com date sun apr gmt lines in article strnlghtc5m2cv hx netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes here simple way to convert the clipper proposal to an unexceptionable one make it voluntary that is you get high quality secure nsa classified technology if you agree to escrow your key otherwise you are on your own as long as you are on your own means that you can use your own encryption sold bruce newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net wupost gumby destroyer cs ubc ca newsserver sfu ca sfu ca eldar from eldar fraser sfu ca danny eldar subject need help message id eldar sfu ca keywords firewall gateway model kerberos sender news sfu ca organization simon fraser university burnaby canada date sun apr gmt lines am currently writing paper on computer protocols security would appreciate your help currently have no insight into these topics except that they relate to security in multilevel security network please semd me any references books faqs or contact persons names and internet addresses the topics am interested in the firewall gateway model as implemented in internet gateways kerberos authentication service please send me private mail at eldar sfu ca and or post it on the board thanks lot danny xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech ncar csn yuma holland from holland cs colostate edu douglas craig holland subject re once tapped your code is no good any more sender news yuma acns colostate edu news account message id apr18 yuma acns colostate edu date sun apr gmt distribution na references apr17 clarinet com tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com qpg8finn982 dns1 nmsu edu nntp posting host beethoven cs colostate edu organization colorado state university computer science department lines in article qpg8finn982 dns1 nmsu edu amolitor nmsu edu andrew molitor writes in article tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com tcmay netcom com timothy may writes but is it any worse than the current unsecure system it becomes much worse of course if the government then uses this clinton clipper to argue for restrictions on unapproved encryption this is the main concern of most of us think the camel nose in the tent etc not to pick on mr may in particular of course but isn this kind of the domino theory when one little country falls its neighbor will surely follow and before you know it we re all mining salt in siberia for not turning in our captain crunch secret decoder rings surely the hypothesis relying on the least wild assumptions is to take this at face value our lads at the fort were asked to cook up something that pretty secure with key that can be escrowed neatly and they did the government plans to sell this thing for the reasons they state yes those evil guys in the fbi can probably with some effort abuse the system got news for you if the evil guys in the fbi decide they want to persecute you they re gonna and you re gonna hate it fact is the fbi doesn want to listen to your phone calls and if they do and if you re using triple des they ll just get parabolic microphone and point it at your head with mail if they can break your pgp encryption they ll just call up one of their tempest trucks and read the electromagnetic emmisions from your computer or terminal note that measures to protect yourself from tempest surveillance are still classified as far as know this is pretty clearly an effort by the government to do exactly what they re saying they re doing as is typical with governments it mismanaged and full of holes and compromises as is typical with our government it not too bad could be worse my interpretation andrew tim may whose sig block may get him busted in the new regime isn this just little melodramatic if the new regime comes to fruition make sure you protect your first amendment rights by asserting your second amendment rights doug holland xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net wupost uunet nwnexus camco1 bill from bill celestial com bill campbell subject re once tapped your code is no good any more organization celestial software mercer island wa distribution na date sun apr gmt message id apr18 celestial com references c5l17v gh5 dove nist gov qmugcinnpu9 gap caltech edu apr17 clarinet com lines in apr17 clarinet com brad clarinet com brad templeton writes it occurs to me that if they get wiretap order on you and the escrow houses release your code to the cops your code is now no longer secure very good point it in the hands of cops and while am sure most of the time they are good their security will not be as good as the escrow houses why should we expect the cops to be honest they re underpaid for the risks they face every day the media dumps on the all the time and blames them for all sorts of discrimination brutality how can we expect them to be more than human besides there are lots of cases of police abuses ranging from protection scams to outright robbery when worked in there was breakin at local radio shack and the alarm company heard the cops responding to the call over the audio pickup in the store what this effectively means is that if they perform wiretap on you at the end of the wiretap they should be obligated to inform you that tap was performed and replace for free the clipper chip in your cellular phone so that it is once again code known only to the escrow houses then you would know that big brother had been listening does he really want to let you know do the police normally reveal every tap they do even if no charges are laid in many ways it would be positive step if they had to judges set time limits on warrants assume at the end of the time limit they should have to renew or replace your chip that if we go with this scheme which am not sure agree with completely against anything that makes it easier for the government to encroach on the rights of individuals the founders of this country spent lot of effort limiting the power of the government and specifying exactly what the governments rights were and this didn include gov spy in every bedroom imho there are entirely too many things going on today designed to preserve the government organism at the expense of individuals look around and reread and many early heinlein books aren there many parallels between the thought police can you spell waco texas and heinlein crazy years bill internet bill celestial com bill campbell celestial software uucp thebes camco bill east mercer way uunet camco bill mercer island wa speed costs money how fast do you want to go newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech ncar csn yuma holland from holland cs colostate edu douglas craig holland subject re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow sender news yuma acns colostate edu news account message id apr18 yuma acns colostate edu date sun apr gmt references rand org rand org strnlghtc5lgfi jqa netcom com nntp posting host beethoven cs colostate edu organization colorado state university computer science department keywords encryption wiretap clipper key escrow mykotronx lines in article strnlghtc5lgfi jqa netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes though some may argue about the nose of the camel it worth noting that the government proposal is limited to scrambled telephony if it is only used for that purpose and does not extend to electronic mail or file encryption then it is an improvement over the current mass produced standard civilian technology which with few exceptions is limited to easy to break inverters note that the big issue for the feds is the continued ability to wiretap before we go off the deep end with long discusions about secure crypto for mail and files let focus on this one question that was not asked in the release is whether this proposal is limited to telephony or if the government intends to expand it though share many of the concerns expressed by some find the proposal less threatening than many others since right now most americans have no secure telephony and any jerk with pair of clip leads and goat can eavesdrop this would also plug up the security hole in cellular and cordless phones reading between the lines infer that the system is highly secure without access to the keys this would meet the needs of businesses confronted by rich and powerful adversaries including french and japanese security services and rich japanese companies it allows the nsa to make available some of its better stuff while protecting law enforcement needs most legitimate corporations trust the nsa and would be delighted to have high security system certified by them even at the price of depositing keys in escrow see no difficulty in creating reliable escrow corporations entrust their secrets to attorneys every day of the week and that system has worked pretty well from my point of view this is fair starting point there are concerns that need to be addressed including the reliability of the escrows but in return we get access to high security crypto many have suggested that des and other systems may be breakable by the nsa and hence others similarly skilled and endowed there is at least good possibility which should be checked that the proposed system is not so breakable it doesn have to be nor does it have to have trapdoors if the government can get the keys pursuant to legitimate court order thus they can protect legitimate communications against economic adversaries while still being able to eavesdrop on crooks pursuant to court order let me ask you this would you trust richard nixon with your crypto keys wouldn doug holland newsgroups sci crypt alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net spool mu edu uwm edu linac att att allegra ulysses ulysses smb from smb research att com steven bellovin subject clipper chip technical details message id apr18 ulysses att com date sun apr gmt organization at bell laboratories lines received the following two notes from martin hellman with details on how clipper will work they are posted with his permission the implications of some details are fascinating date sat apr pdt from martin hellman hellman isl stanford edu to long list of recipients subject clipper chip most of you have seen the announcement in friday ny times etc about nist national institute of standards technology announcing the clipper chip crypto device several messges on the net have asked for more technical details and some have been laboring under understandable misunderstandings given the lack of details in the news articles so here to help out is your friendly nsa link me was somewhat surprised friday to get call from the agency which supplied many of the missing details was told the info was public so here it is the cc of this to dennis branstad at nist is mostly as double check on my facts since assume he is aware of all this please let me know if have anything wrong the clipper chip will have secret crypto algorithm embedded in silicon each chip will have two secret bit keys one will be the same for all chips ie system wide key and the other will be unit specific don know what nist and nsa will call them but will call them the system key sk and unit key uk in this message the ic will be designed to be extremely difficult to reverse so that the system key can be kept secret aside it is clear that they also want to keep the algorithm secret and in my opinion it may be as much for that as this stated purpose the unit key will be generated as the xor of two bit random numbers k1 and k2 uk k1 k2 which will be kept by the two escrow authorities who these escrow authorities will be is still to be decided by the attorney general but it was stressed to me that they will not be nsa or law enforcement agencies that they must be parties acceptable to the users of the system as unbiased when law enforcement agency gets court order they will present it to these two escrow authorities and receive k1 and k2 thereby allowing access to the unit key uk in addition to the system key each user will get to choose his or her own key and change it as often as desired call this key plain old when message is to be sent it will first be encrypted under then will be encrypted under the unit key uk and the serial number of the unit added to produce three part message which will then be encrypted under the system key sk producing uk serial number sk when court order obtains k1 and k2 and thence the law enforcement agency will use sk to decrypt all information flowing on the suspected link aside it is my guess that they may do this constantly on all links with or without court order since it is almost impossible to tell which links over which message will flow this gives the agency access to uk serial number in the above message they then check the serial number of the unit and see if it is on the watch list for which they have court order if so they will decrypt uk to obtain and then decrypt to obtain am still in the process of assessing this scheme so please do not take the above as any kind of endorsement of the proposed scheme all am trying to do is help all of us assess the scheme more knowledgably but will say that the need for just one court order worries me would feel more comfortable though not necessarily comfortable if two separate court orders were needed one per escrow authority while no explanation is needed the following story adds some color in researching some ideas that silvio micali and have been kicking around spoke with gerald gunther the constitutional law expert here at stanford and he related the following story when edward levi became pres ford attorney general right after watergate he was visited by an fbi agent asking for the wiretap authorizations when levy asked for the details so he could review the cases as required by law the agent told him that his predecessors just turned over blank signed forms every time levi did not comply and changed the system but the lesson is clear no single person or authority should have the power to authorize wiretaps or worse yet divulging of personal keys sometimes he or she will be an edward levi and sometimes john mitchell martin hellman date sun apr pdt from martin hellman hellman isl stanford edu to smb research att com subject re clipper chip it is fine to post my previous message to sci crypt if you also post this message with it in which ask recipients to be sparse in their requesting further info from me or asking for comments on specific questions by this posting apologize for any messages am unable to respond to already spend too much time answering too much mail and am particularly overloaded this week with other responsibilities note probably correction sent to me by dorothy denning she met with the person from nsa that talked with by phone so her understanding is likely to better than mine on this point where said the transmitted info is uk serial number sk she says the message is not double encrypted the system key or family key as she was told it is called only encrypts the serial number or the serial number and the encrypted unit key this is not major difference but thought it should be mentioned and thank her for bringing it to my attention it makes more sense since it cuts down on encryption computation overhead newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu linac uwm edu cs utexas edu uunet psinntp shearson com newshost pmetzger from pmetzger snark shearson com perry metzger subject re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow in reply to amanda intercon com message of fri apr message id pmetzger apr18141006 snark shearson com sender news shearson com news reply to pmetzger lehman com organization lehman brothers references jhessec5lumc ex netcom com qnupd jpm news intercon com date sun apr gmt lines in article qnupd jpm news intercon com amanda intercon com amanda walker writes from amanda intercon com amanda walker jhesse netcom com john hesse writes oh great wonderful news nobody can listen in except the feds hey it better than the status quo am far less worried about the feds tapping my phone than high school scanner surfers who get their kicks out of eavesdropping on cellular and cordless phone calls political dissident scared shitless of the feds listening in on my calls my opinions are the sort that would get me disappeared in slightly less free society and who knows what sort of society we will be in in five or ten years have friends who have had their phones tapped none of this is theoretical to me as for its better than the status quo well first of all you can get cryptophone from companies like cylink today and they work well in addition number of groups are now working on building software to turn any pc into privacy enhanced phone right now and they are all working in overdrive mode and yes rather just see all crypto restrictions lifted but this is at least an incrememental improvement for certain applications there are no crypto restrictions yet you can use anything you want right now the point is to maintain that right perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer le monde va de lui meme xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu linac uwm edu cs utexas edu uunet psinntp shearson com newshost pmetzger from pmetzger snark shearson com perry metzger subject re once tapped your code is no good any more in reply to louie sayshell umd edu message of apr gmt message id pmetzger apr18142223 snark shearson com sender news shearson com news reply to pmetzger lehman com organization lehman brothers references apr17 clarinet com tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com qovj8 ni umd edu distribution na date sun apr gmt lines in article qovj8 ni umd edu louie sayshell umd edu louis mamakos writes in article tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com tcmay netcom com timothy may writes but is it any worse than the current unsecure system it becomes much worse of course if the government then uses this clinton clipper to argue for restrictions on unapproved encryption this is the main concern of most of us think the camel nose in the tent etc excuse me this has already happened there couple of humps in the tent already ask the folks at qualcomm what became of the non trivial encryption scheme they proposed for use in their cdma digitial cellular phone standard there already are restrictions in place you have it slightly wrong they dumped the encryption system because they could not export it not because they could not produce it for use there are no legal restraints on citizen use of strong cryptography yet perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer le monde va de lui meme xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu linac uwm edu cs utexas edu uunet psinntp shearson com newshost pmetzger from pmetzger snark shearson com perry metzger subject are we being hysterical no in reply to amolitor nmsu edu message of apr gmt message id pmetzger apr18143642 snark shearson com sender news shearson com news reply to pmetzger lehman com organization lehman brothers references apr17 clarinet com tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com qpg8finn982 dns1 nmsu edu distribution na date sun apr gmt lines in article qpg8finn982 dns1 nmsu edu amolitor nmsu edu andrew molitor writes in article tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com tcmay netcom com timothy may writes but is it any worse than the current unsecure system it becomes much worse of course if the government then uses this clinton clipper to argue for restrictions on unapproved encryption this is the main concern of most of us think the camel nose in the tent etc not to pick on mr may in particular of course but isn this kind of the domino theory as john gilmore has pointed out repeatedly if you produce the infrastructure that would permit police state to function all that is required to suddenly find yourself living in one is change of attitude on the part of the government our constitution was built by men who had to risk their lives to ensure freedom in our country they designed the system to make it difficult for tyranny to arise for instance one of the reasons the fourth amendment was put there was to make it harder for the government to try to make smuggling crime think jest john hancock made all his money smuggling rum which is after all drug think about it the government has everyones keys in escrow and the fbi gets their pet wiretap without leaving the office scheme there is coup which happens every day all around the world within hours everyone in the country who might oppose the tyrants is being monitored more closely than ever before possible without the tools being in place tyranny cannot stand with tools like this in place tyrannical dictatorship could actually be successfully imposed why give the government tools with which to enslave you maybe you can trust bill clinton but are you willing to tell me that you can trust every government that will ever arise in the hereafter am not willing to make that leap of faith tim may whose sig block may get him busted in the new regime isn this just little melodramatic political dissident as such am acutely aware of what happens to political dissidents in most of the world in most of the world could be killed for my beliefs call amnesty international some time to find out what happens to dissidents in most of the world all that seperates the from most of those places is thin piece of parchment in the national archives thats being constantly more and more eroded by such farces as the war on drugs coups have happened in countries that have had stable democracies for over hundred years governments throughout history have fallen no government has lasted for more than few hundred years often they are replaced by dictatorships do you really believe so intensely that it could never ever ever happen here that you are willing to bet your own life and the lives of your children and other loved ones on it if we construct the tools with which tyranny could be enforced we make it orders of magnitude more likely that it could happen because if it happened with the tools already in place it could actually stick naive fools such as our leadership believe they can protect us where hundreds that have gone before have failed thriving democracies led by men far more skillfull than bill clinton have fallen to dictatorship rome had thriving republic run by exquisitely skilled men before they became tyranny for one am unwilling to trust that it could never happen here only hubris would allow us to believe we are immune to what has happened elsewhere perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer le monde va de lui meme path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech enterpoop mit edu senator bedfellow mit edu news mit edu marc from marc mit edu marc horowitz n1nzu newsgroups sci crypt subject re the source of that announcement date apr gmt organization massachusetts institute of technology lines message id marc apr18174241 oliver mit edu references marc apr17211937 oliver mit edu tcmayc5o715 mrs netcom com nntp posting host oliver mit edu in reply to tcmay netcom com message of sun apr gmt in article tcmayc5o715 mrs netcom com tcmay netcom com timothy may writes know that at least one person on that list says the first he heard of clipper was in the friday morning newspaper and another has already fired off letter of protest to nist my point suspect this list interesting as it is for various reasons does not represent the cabal that put this proposal together some of them yes others no received mail from mitch kapor saying that he did not ask to be on the list and does not know why he was added sure the same applies to others on the list so guess my initial theory was right that the clipper list was just someone idea of bad joke guess should be happy it wasn conspiracy marc marc horowitz n1nzu marc mit edu xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net wupost csus edu netcom com strnlght from strnlght netcom com david sternlight subject re once tapped your code is no good any more message id strnlghtc5p7zp zm netcom com organization dsi uscrpac references tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com qpg8finn982 dns1 nmsu edu apr18 yuma acns colostate edu distribution na date sun apr gmt lines in article apr18 yuma acns colostate edu holland cs colostate edu douglas craig holland writes note that measures to protect yourself from tempest surveillance are still classified as far as know think this to be inaccurate one can buy tempest equipment commercially even macs david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net agate ucbvax silverton berkeley edu djb from djb silverton berkeley edu bernstein newsgroups sci crypt alt privacy clipper subject re clipper chip technical details message id apr1821 silverton berkeley edu date apr gmt references apr18 ulysses att com organization ir lines short summary of what bellovin says hellman says the nsa says there is global key plus one key for each chip the user can choose new session key for each phone call he makes chip knows three keys its own and the user the government as whole knows and every apparently message is encrypted as that it the system as described here can possibly work what happens when someone plugs the above ciphertext into receiving chip to get the receiving chip needs to get the receiving chip needs the only information it can work with is if can be computed from then the system is cryptographically useless and the key escrow is bullshit otherwise how is message decrypted dan xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net wupost uwm edu msuinfo caen malgudi oar net uoft02 utoledo edu jupiter steiner newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee subject re once tapped your code is no good any more message id apr18 uoft02 utoledo edu from steiner jupiter cse utoledo edu jason think steiner date apr est followup to sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee references apr18 yuma acns colostate edu distribution na nntp posting host jupiter cse utoledo edu newsreader tin version pl9 lines douglas craig holland holland cs colostate edu writes with mail if they can break your pgp encryption they ll just call up one of their tempest trucks and read the electromagnetic emmisions from your computer or terminal note that measures to protect yourself from tempest surveillance are still classified as far as know are lcd displays vulnerable to tempest if the new regime comes to fruition make sure you protect your first amendment rights by asserting your second amendment rights ll second that jason stood up on my van yelled excuse me sir ain nothing wrong with this country that few plastic explosives won cure steve taylor blew up the clinic real good steiner jupiter cse utoledo edu xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net bogus sura net jhunix hcf jhu edu fmsrl7 lynx unm edu dns1 nmsu edu amolitor from amolitor nmsu edu andrew molitor newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee subject re once tapped your code is no good any more date apr gmt organization department of mathematical sciences lines distribution na message id qsip1innnj2 dns1 nmsu edu references tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com qpg8finn982 dns1 nmsu edu apr18 escom com nntp posting host moink nmsu edu al escom com al donaldson writes amolitor nmsu edu andrew molitor writes yes those evil guys in the fbi can probably with some effort abuse the system got news for you if the evil guys in the fbi decide they want to persecute you they re gonna and if richard nixon had had this kind of toy he wouldn have had to send people into the watergate this appears to be generic calling upon the name of the anti christ just for the hell of it let destroy this remark let us imagine that the executive branch actually could extract keys from the escrow houses without anyone knowing or telling now what dick has bits of data what the hell he gonna do with it trot around to the telco and say we like an unauthorised decrypting tap uh huh break in to watergate and install his own tap so his people still do have to break in neat huh record some noise then get the executive branch phone decryption box huh they ve got one goodness wait til the washington post gets hold of this and decrypt the noise more likely stare at the key and say oh hell it not worth all this bloody hassle truth is even granted lots of covert power on the part of the executive branch this system is more difficult to tap with than pots gear the fact that it is easier to tap than some hypothetical system neither you nor am going to place on our phones is neither here nor there the only rational concerns am seeing raised are is the key really just chopped in half and not some xor arrangement that is has some egregious technical error been built in to the plan is this is the first step toward strict regulation of strong encryption but that not really the issue the real issue is whether this will be used to justify ban against individuals use of private anything else encryption methods this is of course suspect not if the government actually wanted to make such regs they just do it few hundred people on usenet yelling about it wouldn even slow the machine down besides who is this mysterious they who going to take away all our rights the instant we let our guard down congress that gang of buffoons can even balance their checkbooks the fbi but they don make the laws the nsa ditto the white house bill clinton is probably still looking for the bathroom it big place after all andrew al path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel wupost uwm edu linac att bu edu acs bu edu uni from uni acs bu edu shaen bernhardt newsgroups sci crypt subject re an open letter to mr clinton message id bu edu date apr gmt references apr16 yuma acns colostate edu strnlghtc5m2cv hx netcom com c5oy0z ily chinet chi il us sender news bu edu organization boston university boston ma usa lines in article c5oy0z ily chinet chi il us schneier chinet chi il us bruce schneier writes in article strnlghtc5m2cv hx netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes here simple way to convert the clipper proposal to an unexceptionable one make it voluntary that is you get high quality secure nsa classified technology if you agree to escrow your key otherwise you are on your own as long as you are on your own means that you can use your own encryption sold bruce as am if high quality secure nsa classified technology means handing my key over to whomever ll take pgp any day right now they are billing it as voluntary bend over here it comes as soon as enough wiretap chip based units are out there how much easier do you think it will be to redefine on your own to mean write it yourself and don even think about distributing it get honest no one is going to buy this trash if they know it compromised already and less will buy it if the algorithm is not disclosed the nsa knows that making this stuff available to the public means handing it to whatever foreign powers are interested in the process since when has export control stopped anyone especially software wise ask yourself carefully if high quality secure nsa classified technology is something they are going to hand out not unless you can drive nsa van through the holes uni dark uni acs bu edu public keys by finger and or request public key archives at pgp public keys pgp iastate edu df610670f2467b99 de2b5c3749148c sovereignty is the sign of brutal past cryptography is not crime fight the big brother proposal newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel news udel edu darwin sura net wupost csus edu sfsuvax1 sfsu edu sphughes from sphughes sfsuvax1 sfsu edu shaun hughes subject who should be hearing my views on clipper message id apr18 csus edu sender news csus edu organization san francisco state university distribution na date sun apr gmt lines being browser of this group for some time and being very concerned about the clipper chip proposal am hoping someone with more knowledge can help out who would be the most influential people to write to protesting the obvious next step hinted at by this proposal heads of what committees etc what are the major flaws in the plan from cryptological standpoint shaun hughes facts are stupid things sphughes sfsuvax1 sfsu edu ronald reagan republican national finger for pgp public key convention xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet math fu berlin de ifmsun8 ifm uni hamburg de news dkrz hamburg de dscomsa dscomsa desy de hallam from hallam dscomsa desy de phill hallam baker subject re once tapped your code is no good any more message id c5pgfu ia4 dscomsa desy de lines sender hallam vxdesy desy de phill hallam baker reply to hallam zeus02 desy de organization deutsches elektronen synchrotron experiment zeus bei hera references apr17 clarinet com tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com qpg8finn982 dns1 nmsu edu apr18 ringer cs utsa edu distribution na date mon apr gmt in article apr18 ringer cs utsa edu whughes lonestar utsa edu william hughes writes in article qpg8finn982 dns1 nmsu edu amolitor nmsu edu andrew molitor writes in article tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com tcmay netcom com timothy may writes tim may whose sig block may get him busted in the new regime isn this just little melodramatic not at all two weeks ago registered concern about some programming that was being conducted by student organisation here at the university of texas at san antonio as result was interrogated by the capus police who also attempted to create positive identification file photo fingerprints etc refused to permit this and filed complaint with the university administration the vice president for business affairs the boss of the campus police stated that he had no interest in the legal constitutional implications of those actions in article johnson trwacs johnson trwacs fp trw com steve johnson writes remark heard the other day is beginning to take on increasingly frightening significance the comment was made that in other parts of the world the democrats note the big would be known as socialists we might get further if we begin by accepting that the government really couldn be bothered less about the political opinions of the right wing pro establishment types just about the only circumstances in which could think that they would be interested in their political views would be to recruit them as spooks they can be guaranteed to give the government line when it counts in us history it has been the socialists such as myself who have been persecuted now before people start asserting that there is no mechanism by which the administration can get their new chip adopted without legal force lets try thinking in the first place the clipper chip must have existed for several years as defense project therefore this is not party matter at all george bush was in any case hardly adverse to tapping calls he was chief spook remember secondly the govt can quite easily apply pressure they simply ask their chums who they give huge defense contracts to motorola etc to be nice boys after all bill is giving them nice little trade monopoly since the chips won be avaliable to foreign firms thirdly the people who consider the democrats to be socialist are not the same as the ones who consider socialists to be communist people might know this if the us education system did not suffer from the mcarthyite and dewy version of political correctness the sort with tribunals and show trials ever seen ed meese pissed have it was when he said that socialism and communism were the same thing and brought the house down with laughter it took several minutes before we realised that he was serious phill hallam baker phill hallam baker newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet well well sf ca us artmel from artmel well sf ca us arthur melnick subject big brother clipper chip message id artmel well sf ca us summary some thoughts on the use of the big brother clipper chip keywords clipper sender news well sf ca us nntp posting host well sf ca us organization the whole earth lectronic link sausalito ca date sun apr gmt lines there are some issues which come to mind when one considers the law enforcement aspects of the use of the big brother clipper chip the drug dealers and terrorists aren going to let themselves be caught by using this type of encryption in the new york times reported that government investigators broke up narcotics ring that was operating highly sophisticated equipment capable of allowing the leaders of the ring to eavesdrop on the law enforcement agents who were trying to arrest them mr deely an nsa official said there are lot of medium sized countries that would have been proud to have the signals intelligence operation of this group for every john gotti there are probably many more people who have the sophistication to know what the risks of unsecure communications are the press given to the big brother chip will only increase their numbers even if there is some benefit to law enforcement through the use of big brother it must be weighed against the constitutional and civil liberties questions involved for example in some areas of the world torture is used as an investigative tool by the local law enforcement people suspect it is an effective means of obtaining information and shortening many investigations it probably also helps keep the conviction rate high the fact that the torture tool is not used in this country even with court order obtained by showing probable cause is because we have rightly balanced the questions of expediency and what is ethically and morally right think that the same question of expediency versus morality should come into play when considering the use of big brother vote for morality am quite disturbed by what interpret as veiled threat to prohibit the use of all encryption if this big brother chip is not put into wide spread use after quick reading of the white house press release came away with that impression to most of the american public the word hacker has rightly or wrongly come to mean high tech adolescent vandal it has struck me that most of the people posting to sci crypt regarding this issue are intelligent thoughtful individuals who have genuine concerns about the privacy and constitutional issues surrounding big brother hope that the use of big brother does not become mandatory and other encryption become illegal would hate to see this become some kind of high tech volstead act the high speed digital communications revolution is coming at us with the speed of an sst the times they are changing and just as ibm is learning that they can do business the same way they have done it for the past years maybe nsa should evaluate another approach eff who have correctly questioned the cryptographic strength of big brother may need to send stronger message out regarding the constitutional issues involved al gore may want to think this one through little more and as for dorothy elizabeth robling denning en quoi cela vous concerne cheri newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net wupost mont mizzou1 missouri edu c445585 from c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu john kelsey subject clipper chip and key exchange methods message id bb4103ef c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu sender news mont cs missouri edu nntp posting host mizzou1 missouri edu organization university of missouri date sun apr cdt lines was wanting to ask the same question dan bernstein asked how does the clipper chip exchange keys if the public key is only or bits long does anyone know of any public key schemes that are secure with that key size diffie hellman or maybe el gamal with set to constant value presumably the real scheme is something like exchange verify public keys send encrypted randomly generated session key encrypt decrypt voice trafic with some sort of fast stream cipher can anyone elaborate on this or show me what missing here john kelsey c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp org acm sci crypt comp security misc comp org ieee newsgroups comp org acm sci crypt comp security misc comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc sdd hp com nigel msen com yale edu ira uka de math fu berlin de news from rclark nyx cs du edu subject re is there any security in the clipper message id socbauf math fu berlin de sender news math fu berlin de math department organization cold media references zeev apr18014822 sepia ccc amdahl com date mon apr gmt lines zeev ccc amdahl com ze ev wurman writes but do we really believe that the various governments including ours won have the full lists of all the keys ever manufactured yes but they ll be encrypted with cripple chip encryption the encryption algorithm so great it top secret and so unbreakable they won even let you look at it doesn that make you feel secure robert clark just say no to the rclark nyx cs du edu big brother chip xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org acm comp org ieee newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel wupost uwm edu ux1 cso uiuc edu news iastate edu pv343d vincent iastate edu jyork from jyork iastate edu justin york subject clipper chip how would it work message id jyork pv343d vincent iastate edu sender news news iastate edu usenet news system organization iowa state university ames ia date mon apr gmt lines with all the talk about this clipper chip have developed one question how does it work if you use this then how does it get decrypted on the other end does the other party receiving the phone call mail etc have to know some code to undo it do use different method for calling one party than would for another if the other party can decrypt it doesn that mean that someone else could also assume that if everyone has different key the only use would be storing secure data for later retrieval by the same key this seems like fundamental question to me but have very little experience with cryptosystems other than des if someone could give me an explanation as to how it would be used remember that have had little experience with this sort of thing it would be very much appreciated justin york jyork iastate edu xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net noc near net lynx random ccs northeastern edu rogue from rogue ccs northeastern edu free radical subject re once tapped your code is no good any more message id apr18 random ccs northeastern edu followup to alt security sender news random ccs northeastern edu nntp posting host damon ccs northeastern edu organization college of cs northeastern references tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com qpg8finn982 dns1 nmsu edu apr18 yuma acns colostate edu distribution alt date sun apr gmt lines in article apr18 yuma acns colostate edu holland cs colostate edu douglas craig holland writes with mail if they can break your pgp encryption they ll just call up one of their tempest trucks and read the electromagnetic emmisions from your computer or terminal note that measures to protect yourself from tempest surveillance are still classified as far as know don know about classified but do seem to remember that unless you re authorized by the govt it illegal to tempest shield your equipment besides effective tempest shielding is much more difficult than you might think hi jim ra rogue cs neu edu rogue agent sod the nsa is now funding research not only in cryptography but in all areas of advanced mathematics if you like circular describing these new research opportunities just pick up your phone call your mother and ask for one xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security pgp newsgroups sci crypt alt security pgp path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu linac uwm edu cs utexas edu asuvax ncar sage cgd ucar edu prz from prz sage cgd ucar edu philip zimmermann subject fighting the clipper initiative message id apr19 ncar ucar edu summary ways to fight it sender news ncar ucar edu usenet maintenance organization climate and global dynamics division ncar boulder co date mon apr gmt lines here are some ideas for those of you who want to oppose the white house clipper chip crypto initiative think this is going to be tough measure to fight since the government has invested lot of resources in developing this high profile initiative they are serious about it now it won be as easy as it was defeating senate bill in possible actions to take in response mobilize your friends to to all the things on this list and more work the press talk with your local newspaper science and technology reporter write to your favorite trade rags better yet write some articles yourself for your favorite magazines or newspapers explain why the clipper chip initiative is bad idea remember to tailor it to your audience the general public may be slow to grasp why it bad idea since it seems so technical and arcane and innocent sounding try not to come across as flaming libertarian paranoid extremist even if you are one lobby congress write letters and make phone calls to your member of congress in your own district as well as your two us senators many members of congress have aides that advise them of technology issues talk to those aides involve your local political parties the libertarian party would certainly be interested there are also libertarian wings of the democrat and republican parties the right to privacy has surprisingly broad appeal spanning all parts of the political spectrum we have many natural allies the aclu the nra other activist groups that may someday find themselves facing government that can suppress them much more efficiently if these trends play themselves out but you must articulate our arguments well if you want to draw in people who are not familiar with these issues contribute money to the electronic frontier foundation eff and computer professionals for social responsibility cpsr assuming these groups will fight this initiative they need money for legal expenses and lobbying mobilize opposition in industry companies that will presumably develop products that will incorporate the clipper chip should be lobbied against it from within and from without if you work for telecommunications equipment vendor first enlist the aid of your coworkers and fellow engineers against this initiative and then present your company management with united front of engineering talent against this initiative write persuasive memos to your management with your name and your colleagues names on it hold meetings on it publicize deploy and entrench as much guerrilla techno monkeywrenching apparatus as you can that means pgp anonymous mail forwarding systems based on pgp pgp key servers etc the widespread availability of this kind of technology might also be used as an argument that it can be effectively suppressed by government action will also be working to develop new useful tools for these purposes be prepared to engage in an impending public policy debate on this topic we don know yet how tough this fight will be so we may have to compromise to get most of what we want if we can outright defeat it we may have to live with modified version of this clipper chip plan in the end so we better be prepared to analyze the government plan and articulate how we want it modified philip zimmermann path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse flop engr orst edu leela csos orst edu atlantis csos orst edu mcbeeb from mcbeeb atlantis csos orst edu brian mcbee newsgroups sci crypt subject how can clipper stay classified message id qstqs jmt leela csos orst edu date apr gmt article leela qstqs jmt distribution world organization cs dept oregon state university corvallis oregon lines nntp posting host atlantis csos orst edu maybe don know enough to know what am asking but with millions of these things about how could the algorythm possibly stay secret couldn some clever hackers just grind the thing down layer by layer and see how it worked brian mcbee mcbeeb atlantis cs orst edu finger me for pgp key newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet world iecc johnl from johnl iecc cambridge ma us john levine subject why the clipper algorithm is secret message id apr18 iecc cambridge ma us organization references apr17 ulysses att com date sun apr gmt lines the cryptographic protocol though is another matter see no valid reasons for keeping it secret and as hope ve shown above there are lot of ways to do things that aren quite as bad it just occurred to me why the algorithm is secret if it were published one could then build physically identical clone versions of the chip that would interoperate with official clipper chips but the cloner wouldn provide the keys to the escrow houses hmmn or is there technical hack that ve missed how about if the chips were made unprogrammed but serialized and then shipped to the two escrow houses who programmed in their halves of the keys but in way that requires that secret keys known only to the escrow houses be installed as well without which clone versions wouldn interoperate this is getting awfully complicated but that crypto for you john levine iecc pob cambridge ma johnl iecc cambridge ma us ima spdcc world iecc johnl time is money steal some today xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet olivea mintaka lcs mit edu hal gnu ai mit edu not for mail from rjc hal gnu ai mit edu ray newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee subject re once tapped your code is no good any more message id qsuko mfg hal gnu ai mit edu date apr gmt references qpg8finn982 dns1 nmsu edu apr18 ringer cs utsa edu c5pgfu ia4 dscomsa desy de sender news mintaka lcs mit edu distribution na organization etc organization lines in article c5pgfu ia4 dscomsa desy de hallam zeus02 desy de writes views would be to recruit them as spooks they can be guaranteed to give the government line when it counts in us history it has been the socialists such as myself who have been persecuted and in russia capitalists were persecuted for trading goods on the black market and in the us capitalist minded types are imprisoned and killed for things such as selling drugs guns pornography and other victimless activities it doesn matter whether you are socialist or capitalist power and control are central to government since citizens can be trusted to run their own affairs the government must watch them for their own good of course mean with strong cryptography citizens might gasp start to hide things from the irs sell drugs guns pornography and that cannot be allowed trials ever seen ed meese pissed have it was when he said that socialism and communism were the same thing and brought the house down with laughter it took several minutes before we realised that he was serious not very surprising to anyone who believes in hands off government if you believe that your private life both social and financial are none of anyone else business the difference between socialism and communism is like the difference between murder by lethal injection or by chainsaw the more centralized the economy is the more potential abuses for accumulation of information on individuals if you think credit companies are bad well sure democratic socialist society would vote for absolute privacy of all citizens not newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc sdd hp com news cs indiana edu mvanheyn cs indiana edu from marc vanheyningen mvanheyn cs indiana edu subject re clipper chip technical details message id moose cs indiana edu sender mvanheyn cs indiana edu organization computer science dept indiana university references apr18 ulysses att com apr1821 silverton berkeley edu date sun apr lines thus said djb silverton berkeley edu bernstein short summary of what bellovin says hellman says the nsa says there is global key plus one key for each chip the user can choose new session key for each phone call he makes chip knows three keys its own and the user the government as whole knows and every apparently message is encrypted as that it the system as described here can possibly work what happens when someone plugs the above ciphertext into receiving chip to get the receiving chip needs to get the receiving chip needs the only information it can work with is if can be computed from then the system is cryptographically useless and the key escrow is bullshit otherwise how is message decrypted given the description of the algorithm given the only plausible explantion can find is that must be agreed to out of bandwidth in advance by the two parties it standard shared symmetric key marc vanheyningen mvanheyn cs indiana edu mime ripem accepted security through diversion theory which states that the public availability of good computer games is vital to maintaining system safety contrast security through obscurity xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu lynx unm edu dns1 nmsu edu amolitor from amolitor moink nmsu edu andrew molitor newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc subject what the clipper nay sayers sound like to me date apr gmt organization department of mathematical sciences lines distribution na message id qsvfcinnq9v dns1 nmsu edu nntp posting host moink nmsu edu originator amolitor moink nmsu edu the following is available in some ftp archive somewhere insert my comments liberally throughout this demonic memo of big brotherdom white house announcement on screw thread standards this is to announce that the american national standards institute or whatever it is has been given the authority to define standard dimensions for screw threads look this is clearly the first step toward outlawing our own screw thread specifications if this madness isn fought tooth and nail every step of the way it ll be crime to use screw threads other than those our fearless leaders so graciously define for us the purpose of this is to permit industry to draw upon standard pool of specifications and designations to ensure interoperability of various threaded objects across vendors rubbish say ansi standard screw threads will have subtle weaknesses allowing their agents to disassemble our automobiles more easily causing our mufflers to fall off at inoppurtune moments questions and answers on the ansi screw thread standards will the screw threads defined by ansi be as good as other screw thread designs available elsewhere yes hah trust us will be able to use my own screw threads if desire of course but this will make your threaded objects unlikely to interoperate correctly with others within the industry see see this is the first step it is clear we must band together write your congressman use pretty good screw threads not this devil inspired ansi trash protect your constitutional right to use whatever screw thread you desire guerilla screw thread activism must become the order of the day boycott gm and build your own car using screws from stz screw thread associates screw you bill clinton you and your totalitarianist thugs amolitor nmsu edu finger for pgst personal screw thread pitch or screw threads see the screw thread servers must be freed xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt privacy sci crypt alt security comp security misc comp org eff talk newsgroups alt privacy sci crypt alt security comp security misc comp org eff talk path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net agate ames noc arc nasa gov howland from howland noc arc nasa gov curt howland subject re white house wiretap chip disinformation sheet message id apr19 news arc nasa gov keywords big bubba is watching sender usenet news arc nasa gov organization nasa science internet project office references c5lgaz dove nist gov wcs apr17034914 rainier att com date mon apr gmt lines the attorney general will procure and utilize encryption devices to the extent needed to preserve the government ability to conduct lawful electronic surveillance and to fulfill the need for secure law enforcement communications further the attorney general shall utilize funds from the department of justice asset forfeiture super surplus fund to effect this purchase this is the one part that really scares me without the keys it can likely be determined if person is using the state approved encryption method and if not then that persons life is forfet and the profits go to making more busts and more profit power corrupts absolute power corrupts absolutely human nature has not changed very much in only few hundred years curt howland howland nsipo nasa gov nsi operations center nasa ames xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech purdue yuma ns111310 from ns111310 lance colostate edu nathaniel sammons subject re what the clipper nay sayers sound like to me message id apr19 yuma acns colostate edu sender news yuma acns colostate edu news account date mon apr gmt distribution na references qsvfcinnq9v dns1 nmsu edu nntp posting host blanca lance colostate edu organization colorado state engineering college lines bunch of well meaning maybe cynnical text about screw thread sizes the rights of people to have their own standards and the non right of the gov to regulate screw threads well as funny as your little comment may seem it has very little to do with your personal privacy as citizen and about the governemnt being able to look at everything you have ever typed into computer at one point or another this clipper chip stuff is the seeds for nightmares to make the nightmare on elmstreet cheese on celluloid movies look like episodes of mr roger neighborhood if the gov establishes cryptography standard that has to be used by everyone and everyone personal key is divided into two segments and stored at two separate albeit easy to find places and that key is only bits to begin with we are screwed pardon the allusion to the affore mentioned article the gov believe as do many others probably already have the cracking chips for this clipper chip made hell they probably based the encoder on the chip that cracks it that way it easier to break the code but since it is classified algorythm no one knows that they can crack it so easily for one and quite scared of this kind of thing and plan to support organizations and even disorganizations who are fighting against this clipper chip in any way that can do not want the government to be able to have access even with search warrant to my keys and don want those keys to be only bits long to begin with nate sammons hate quotations this message brought you by tell me what you know nate sammons and the number ralph waldo emerson ns111310 longs lance colostate edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc usc not for mail from jed pollux usc edu jonathan demarrais newsgroups sci crypt subject crypto conference date apr organization university of southern california los angeles ca lines sender nntp pollux usc edu distribution usa message id qt3t9inn21o pollux usc edu nntp posting host pollux usc edu need to know the following information about the upcoming crypto conference the address to submit articles and the number of copies needed thanks jonathan demarrais jed pollux usc edu jay jed pollux usc edu university of southern california what depressingly stupid machine marvin newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net bogus sura net darwin sura net rouge srl03 cacs usl edu pgf from pgf srl03 cacs usl edu phil fraering subject re once tapped your code is no good any more message id pgf srl03 cacs usl edu sender anon usl edu anonymous nntp posting organization univ of southwestern louisiana references tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com qpg8finn982 dns1 nmsu edu bu edu strnlghtc5nrhw qb netcom com date mon apr gmt lines strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes what follows is my opinion it is not asserted to be the truth so no flames please it comes out of background of years as senior corporate staff executive in two fortune companies be happy to use crypto system supplied by the nsa for business if they told me it was more secure than des and in particular resistant to attempts by japanese french and other competitive companies and governments to break be happy to do so even with escrowed keys provided was happy about the bona fides of the escrow agencies the federal reserve would certainly satisfy me as would something set up by one of the big accounting firms trust the nsa or the president if they stated there were no trap doors be even happier if committee of independent experts examined the thing under seal of secrecy and reported back that it was secure trust something from the nsa long before trust something from some swiss or anybody japanese lot of us out here in the hinderland will trust the japanese before we ll trust the nsa the president or those stupid fortune companies you re so proud of this may seem surprising to some here but suggest most corporations would feel the same way most many some pick one corporations have an attitude that the nsa is part of our government and we support our government as one very famous ceo put it to me one day just some perspective from another point of view and since the japanese corps aren part of our government governors they may be more trusted out htere than you are people are getting tired of this be patriotic do whatever we say without question and pay more taxes attitude that comes from america political party or should that be caste david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted phil fraering seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff pgf srl02 cacs usl edu like how the ancient mayans had televison repo man xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net bogus sura net darwin sura net rouge srl03 cacs usl edu pgf from pgf srl03 cacs usl edu phil fraering subject re once tapped your code is no good any more message id pgf srl03 cacs usl edu sender anon usl edu anonymous nntp posting organization univ of southwestern louisiana references apr17 clarinet com tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com qpg8finn982 dns1 nmsu edu apr18 yuma acns colostate edu distribution na date mon apr gmt lines holland cs colostate edu douglas craig holland writes with mail if they can break your pgp encryption they ll just call up one of their tempest trucks and read the electromagnetic emmisions from your computer or terminal note that measures to protect yourself from tempest surveillance are still classified as far as know don think they are classified could independently invent about half dozen right off the top of my head if had studied advanced little better could probably come up with very good system if the new regime comes to fruition make sure you protect your first amendment rights by asserting your second amendment rights doug holland phil fraering seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff pgf srl02 cacs usl edu like how the ancient mayans had televison repo man xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security newsgroups sci crypt alt security path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net lynx mkagalen from mkagalen lynx dac northeastern edu michael kagalenko subject some thoughts on clipper proposal message id apr19 lynx dac northeastern edu organization division of academic computing northeastern university boston ma usa date mon apr gmt lines envision incorporation of new standart into various communication systems thus making it prevalent on the market therefore cheap the way to do that may be detaching crypto chip from communication equipment it seems logical to provide clipper chip to the end user not as part of phone fax modem like but in the form of smart card compatible with various telecomm products banks will encourage extensive use of new cards to make transactions by phone natural step will be to cross reference this card to the person in the government databases or else this new version of wiretap proposal make no sence at all one wish to eavesdrop spell on the particular person not on the particular modem or phone as side note disagree with one poster who said he won care about ability of the government to eavesdrop since they can do that now anyway clipper will take away electronic survelliance from citizens making it monopoly of the government may be we can find examples when interceptions made by unauthorised people uncovered crimes of state officials for pgp2 public key finger mkagalen lynx dac northeastern edu xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech swrinde sgiblab cs uoregon edu news uoregon edu netnews nwnet net news washington edu serval owl csrv uidaho edu snake cs uidaho edu tribe831 from tribe831 snake cs uidaho edu mr duane tribe esq newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc subject underground encryption was re text of white house announcement date apr gmt organization university of idaho moscow lines distribution na message id qt2h4inna0k owl csrv uidaho edu references c5l17v gh5 dove nist gov qmugcinnpu9 gap caltech edu nntp posting host snake cs uidaho edu in article qmugcinnpu9 gap caltech edu hal cco caltech edu hal finney writes it looks like the worst nightmares raised by dorothy denning proposals are coming true if the government continues on this course imagine that we will see strong cryptography made illegal encryption programs for disk files and email as well as software to allow for encrypted voice communications will be distributed only through the underground people will have to learn how to hide the fact that they are protecting their privacy some thoughts has any work been done on encapsulating encrypted data inside non encrypted data files many file formats can be written with gaps in them to hide other data new file formats could be designed to have alternate data hidden by dispersing it amongst the legitimate data the hidden data would only show up with the right key and file with hidden data would be indistinguishable from one without so only the correct key would reveal the presence of an illegal document if devise custom file compression algorithm and only and friend have the uncompressor and otherwise the file appears to be total gigerish do have the right to transmit the file will we have to escrow all our data file formats are gangs required to escrow their hand signals colors and catch phrases think that it important to evaluate the content of electronic speach by replacing the media with pen and paper or verbal speach and then re ask the question newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet psinntp wrldlnk usenet from douglas johnson p00450 psilink com subject unix crypt for dos message id p00450 psilink com sender usenet worldlink com nntp posting host organization class technology corporation date mon apr gmt mailer psilink dos lines ve recently moved from unix to dos box and have number of files that used crypt to protect does anyone know of dos version of crypt ve found one but it insists on six letter keys and used some shorter ones thanks for your help doug xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc sol ctr columbia edu eff ddsw1 chinet ignatz from ignatz chinet chi il us dave ihnat subject re once tapped your code is no good any more message id c5pon8 q7 chinet chi il us summary but for all its flaws the domino theory was right sender dave ihnat organization chinet public access unix references apr17 clarinet com tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com qpg8finn982 dns1 nmsu edu distribution na date mon apr gmt lines in article qpg8finn982 dns1 nmsu edu amolitor nmsu edu andrew molitor writes not to pick on mr may in particular of course but isn this kind of the domino theory when one little country falls its neighbor will surely follow and before you know it we re all mining salt in siberia for not turning in our captain crunch secret decoder rings but for all the wrongness of our attempt to correct it vietnam et al the domino theory wasn disproved at all path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net agate dog ee lbl gov network ucsd edu news acns nwu edu uicvm uic edu u23590 organization university of illinois at chicago academic computer center date sun apr cdt from u23590 uicvm uic edu message id u23590 uicvm uic edu newsgroups sci crypt subject re clipper some new thoughts references apr17 ulysses att com lines the cryptographic algorythm must be kept secret or private individuals could make clipperclones with which they could transmit messages which the feds would not have ready access to this is clearly unacceptable hope somebody starts doing this soon after the first ones are released xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net spool mu edu uwm edu linac att att out cbnewsh cbnewsh cb att com wcs from wcs anchor ho att com bill stewart subject re once tapped your code is no good any more organization your typical phone company involved in your typical daydream distribution na date mon apr gmt message id wcs apr19011557 rainier att com in reply to brad clarinet com message of apr gmt references apr17 clarinet com tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com apr17 clarinet com sender news cbnewsh cb att com netnews administrator nntp posting host rainier ho att com lines in article apr17 clarinet com brad clarinet com brad templeton writes once it hits land you can record it if you have telco access the telco isn supposed to give that without warrant that the rule today but even so the evidence would not be admissible think unless the judge so ordered think that even interception of the crypttext without warrant would be illegal cops can record today plain cellular calls and then ask judge hey can we have permission to listen to those tapes can they how long do you think it will be before it becomes legal for the police to record encrypted conversations it not violating your privacy because we can read the encryption without warrant with the usual good faith exception if they accidentally record non encrypted conversation besides it covered by the drug exception to the fourth amendment pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com at bell labs m312 holmdel nj no from new jersey only work in cyberspace white house commect line fax newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net wupost csus edu netcom com strnlght from strnlght netcom com david sternlight subject re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow message id strnlghtc5pucl kp netcom com keywords encryption wiretap clipper key escrow mykotronx organization dsi uscrpac references rand org strnlghtc5lgfi jqa netcom com apr18 yuma acns colostate edu date mon apr gmt lines in article apr18 yuma acns colostate edu holland cs colostate edu douglas craig holland writes let me ask you this would you trust richard nixon with your crypto keys wouldn take it you mean president nixon not private citizen nixon sure nothing doing would be of the slightest interest to president nixon david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt privacy sci crypt alt security comp security misc comp org eff talk newsgroups alt privacy sci crypt alt security comp security misc comp org eff talk path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net agate dog ee lbl gov network ucsd edu qualcom qualcomm com unix ka9q ampr org karn from karn unix ka9q ampr org phil karn subject re white house wiretap chip disinformation sheet message id apr19 qualcomm com keywords big bubba is watching sender news qualcomm com nntp posting host unix ka9q ampr org reply to karn servo qualcomm com organization qualcomm inc references c5lgaz dove nist gov wcs apr17034914 rainier att com date mon apr gmt lines in article wcs apr17034914 rainier att com wcs anchor ho att com bill stewart writes the attorney general will procure and utilize encryption devices to the extent needed to preserve the government ability to conduct lawful electronic surveillance and to fulfill the need for secure law enforcement communications further the attorney general shall utilize funds from the department of justice asset forfeiture super surplus fund to effect this purchase this is very curious thing to say stu iiis nsa designed secure telephones cleared for classified traffic are already readily available to law enforcement agencies word has it they re standard in every fbi office for example something like several hundred thousand of these phones exist in all they are clearly the us government standard so why does the doj need to buy new phones that unlike stu iiis will not be certified for classified traffic and in all likelihood will not be compatible with existing stu iiis unless of course they re gearing up for large scale decryption of civilian clipper users and they need compatible hardware phil newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net wupost csus edu netcom com strnlght from strnlght netcom com david sternlight subject re wh proposal from police point of view message id strnlghtc5puor netcom com organization dsi uscrpac references apr18 news clarkson edu date mon apr gmt lines dwight tuinstra posts very interesting message in which he comments on the effects of the clipper chip on state and local police actually reading between the lines it could be very good thing for civil liberties in one respect since it will at least prevent cowboy cops and cowboy state and local agancies from reading your traffic if they tap it illegally there has been extensive discussion in the eff forum for example about inadmissible taps being used to develop information that could then lead to admissible evidence this might put stop to such things which must from time to time be simple fishing expeditions david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov nntp server caltech edu hal from hal cco caltech edu hal finney newsgroups sci crypt subject re clipper chip technical details date apr gmt organization california institute of technology pasadena lines message id qtgl4innhli gap caltech edu references apr18 ulysses att com apr1821 silverton berkeley edu nntp posting host alumni caltech edu djb silverton berkeley edu bernstein writes summary elided the system as described here can possibly work what happens when someone plugs the above ciphertext into receiving chip to get the receiving chip needs to get the receiving chip needs the only information it can work with is if can be computed from then the system is cryptographically useless and the key escrow is bullshit otherwise how is message decrypted the description of the chip operation evidently leaves out some of the key management aspects either the is the secret key corresponding to public key which is broadcast at message initiation or it is the result of diffie hellman key exchange or something similar either way there must be some protocols beyond those described here it isn clear whether they are implemented in the clipper wiretap chip or must be provided by other system components hal finney newsgroups sci crypt alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu uwm edu linac att att allegra ulysses ulysses smb from smb research att com steven bellovin subject re clipper chip technical details message id apr19 ulysses att com date mon apr gmt references apr18 ulysses att com apr1821 silverton berkeley edu organization at bell laboratories lines in article apr1821 silverton berkeley edu djb silverton berkeley edu bernstein writes short summary of what bellovin says hellman says the nsa says there is global key plus one key for each chip the user can choose new session key for each phone call he makes chip knows three keys its own and the user the government as whole knows and every apparently message is encrypted as that it the system as described here can possibly work what happens when someone plugs the above ciphertext into receiving chip to get the receiving chip needs to get the receiving chip needs the only information it can work with is if can be computed from then the system is cryptographically useless and the key escrow is bullshit otherwise how is message decrypted via of course nothing was said about where comes from it the session key though and it chosen however you usually choose session keys exponential key exchange shared secret rsa etc but however you choose it the chip will apparently emit the escrow header when you do newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net wupost mont mizzou1 missouri edu c445585 from c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu john kelsey subject corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip message id bb51156 c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu sender news mont cs missouri edu nntp posting host mizzou1 missouri edu organization university of missouri references tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com qpg8finn982 dns1 nmsu edu bu edu strnlghtc5nrhw qb netcom com pgf srl03 cacs usl edu date mon apr cdt lines strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes what follows is my opinion it is not asserted to be the truth so no flames please it comes out of background of years as senior corporate staff executive in two fortune companies be happy to use crypto system supplied by the nsa for business if they told me it was more secure than des and in particular resistant to attempts by japanese french and other competitive companies and governments to break be happy to do so even with escrowed keys provided was happy about the bona fides of the escrow agencies the federal reserve would certainly satisfy me as would something set up by one of the big accounting firms don doubt that this will be the attitude of many corporate leaders it understandable most corporate execs don know much about cryptology and it easy to get taken in by someone peddling snake oil and the proposed scheme is major improvement in telephone security to what exists now the problem is that with any security scheme of this kind you have to concern yourself with the weakest link in the chain suspect that nsa has put fairly strong encryption algorithm in this wiretap chip of theirs probably at least as strong as say des in ofb mode unfortunately the existence of the key registry system seems to make possible all kinds of possible attacks at small fraction of the expense of trying to build say des keysearch machine as originally described it sounded like any police court combination could acquire the key for given chip hope that not the case since it would imply glaring hole how much does it cost to find one crooked jodge and one crooked cop especially for foreign intelligence agency or organized crime boss however even if more intelligent schemes are used to allow access to the unencrypted phone conversations there will be weak nesses they may be very expensive and very difficult but who would trust his her confidential information to an encryption scheme that for say could by cracked one time in hundred des for all the complaints about bit key would probably cost several million dollars to build keysearch machine for how many million dollars would the confidential phone messages of the gm headquarters be worth to nissan chrysler or audi how about home phones of major execs and important engineers and designers gee mr jones understand you ve had some financial problems lately maybe can help trust something from the nsa long before trust something from some swiss or anybody japanese indeed if nsa really designed the algorithm to be secure it very likely as secure as idea or key des however the system as whole isn resistant to practical cryptanalysis in the puzzle palace bamford describes how several nsa employees were turned by foreign presumably kgb agents despite security measures that doubt any big accounting firm could match and nsa confidential data was not subject to being requested by thousands of police organizations and courts across the land john kelsey c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet psinntp panix dfl from dfl panix com danny bedlam subject re why the clipper algorithm is secret message id c5pstr lu2 panix com organization panix new yawk city references apr17 ulysses att com apr18 iecc cambridge ma us date mon apr gmt lines in apr18 iecc cambridge ma us johnl iecc cambridge ma us john levine writes quoting someone else here the cryptographic protocol though is another matter see no valid reasons for keeping it secret and as hope ve shown above there are lot of ways to do things that aren quite as bad it just occurred to me why the algorithm is secret if it were published one could then build physically identical clone versions of the chip that would interoperate with official clipper chips but the cloner wouldn provide the keys to the escrow houses hmmn yeah the algorithm is classified because military contract or similar government equivalent to military has been let for this proprietary design that the feds say that nsa developed is there patent is that patent publicly available my betting is that that too is classified if the algorithm were made public or reverse engineered it would compromise not only the goal of justice of being able to read every chip users cypto data but would reduce profits for the selected chip maker wouldn that just be too bad danny bedlam dfl panix com cmcl2 panix dfl danny lieberman po box church st station new yawk new yawk usa newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu ukma mont mizzou1 missouri edu c445585 from c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu john kelsey subject the wiretap chip clones and secure key exchange message id bb51825 c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu sender news mont cs missouri edu nntp posting host mizzou1 missouri edu organization university of missouri references apr17 ulysses att com u23590 uicvm uic edu date mon apr cdt lines u23590 uicvm uic edu writes the cryptographic algorythm must be kept secret or private individuals could make clipperclones with which they could transmit messages which the feds would not have ready access to not necessarily ve been thinking about this and if this chip scheme is to provide any real security there must be some sort of key exchange either using public key encryption scheme or using key exchange scheme like diffie hellman if there an out of band transmission of shared session key then what protects that band from eavesdropping if the phone company or some other online central authority generates session key and sends it to both users then what the point of going to the trouble of having some complicated key depositories just ask the phone company for copy of the session key for each call now it probably not practical for each user to keep an online copy of every public key used by anyone anywhere right so probably there will be some way of getting these keys verified this might be digitally signed by the chip manufacturer copy of the public key in this unit stored by this unit it might also be an online directory with access to everyone public keys this would introduce another weakness to the security of the scheme of course presumably if you don use your designated key you can get verified connection to other standard chips it might be useful to have modified chip which would allow you to use either the original public private key pair or some other key pair and verification scheme unfortunately this would not allow you to call most people and establish secure communications john kelsey hope somebody starts doing this soon after the first ones are released newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net wupost uunet looking brad from brad clarinet com brad templeton subject re how to detect use of an illegal cipher organization clarinet communications corp date mon apr gmt message id apr19 clarinet com references qnmnp db8 sol tis com apr17 clarinet com c5nmb1 cof news claremont edu lines in article c5nmb1 cof news claremont edu ebrandt jarthur claremont edu eli brandt writes get their copy of your key any criminal who going to use encryption will do it under cover of clipper the only way to avoid this will be to try to prohibit strong encryption this isn true today criminals regularly use all sorts of unsafe methods from cordless phones to cellular phones to plain old copper wire analog phones that you can put alligator clips on to plan and execute their crimes it is amazing how stupid they are which is why the fbi was so keen on the digital telphony law and its successor the clipper chip they re hoping here that most crooks will remain stupid feel safe using clipper chip phones and get caught brad templeton clarinet communications corp sunnyvale ca newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet looking brad from brad clarinet com brad templeton subject re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow organization clarinet communications corp date mon apr gmt message id apr19 clarinet com keywords encryption wiretap clipper key escrow mykotronx references strnlghtc5lgfi jqa netcom com apr17 clarinet com apr18 magnus acs ohio state edu lines in article apr18 magnus acs ohio state edu jebright magnus acs ohio state edu james ebright writes in article brad clarinet com brad templeton writes the greatest danger of the escrow database if it were kept on disk would be the chance that complete copy could somehow leak out you of course then it hard to backup however think the consequences of no backup the data is not there when warrant comes are worse than the consequences of secret backup if the data isn there when the warrant comes you effectively have secure crypto if secret backups are kept then you effectively have no crypto thus this poster is essentialy arguing no crypto is better than secure crypto no the poster me has his brain in the wrong gear as you can infer from the first sentence meant the consequences of no backup are better than the consequences of an easy to copy database brad templeton clarinet communications corp sunnyvale ca newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet wupost mont mizzou1 missouri edu c445585 from c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu john kelsey subject competing standard message id bb51c9e c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu sender news mont cs missouri edu nntp posting host mizzou1 missouri edu organization university of missouri date mon apr cdt lines perhaps one way of getting away from this cripple chip that the government seems to be pushing would be to come up with good alternative for example how about scheme using rsa and some hybrid of des cfb and another strong stream cipher maybe idea cfb this could be substantially the same as the cripple chip except that instead of key registration the police could demand that you give up your secret key to them with court issued warrant then they could read the last few months of wiretapped messages you ve sent and assuming you ve committed no crimes you could generate new key pair and go about your business find that be willing to pay rsa for the right to use such system especially given the alternative if you were unwilling to give up your secret key then you probably stay in jail has anyone got real legal precedent for this this would allow court issued warrants to be used to gather information on suspected criminals but it couldn be done in secrecy and there would be enormously less likelihood of corruption or theft of escrowed keys maybe someone from the law enforcement or intelligent community will correct me but this doesn seem like such big loss in terms of law enforcement capabilities any comments john kelsey path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net agate ucbvax silverton berkeley edu djb from djb silverton berkeley edu bernstein newsgroups sci crypt alt privacy clipper subject re clipper chip technical details message id apr1907 silverton berkeley edu date apr gmt references apr18 ulysses att com apr1821 silverton berkeley edu apr19 ulysses att com organization ir lines in article apr19 ulysses att com smb research att com steven bellovin writes nothing was said about where comes from oh hellman said each user will get to choose his or her own key that the key which called the session key according to hellman if alice and bob are communicating with the clipper chip then alice chooses her own key and bob chooses his own key this is incompatible with the suggestion that when alice and bob are talking they use common chosen by classical or public key approaches the protocol key management description published so far is either incomplete or incorrect it leaves me with no idea of how the system would actually work hope the cpsr foia request succeeds so that we get full details dan xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security pgp newsgroups sci crypt alt security pgp path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net wupost crcnis1 unl edu moe ksu ksu edu hobbes physics uiowa edu news uiowa edu news weeg uiowa edu holthaus from holthaus news weeg uiowa edu james holthaus subject re fighting the clipper initiative message id apr19 news weeg uiowa edu organization university of iowa iowa city ia usa references apr19 ncar ucar edu date mon apr gmt lines prz sage cgd ucar edu philip zimmermann writes philip think your ideas are well taken and constructive thanks for articulating them in this forum work the press talk with your local newspaper science and technology reporter write to your favorite trade rags better yet write some articles yourself for your favorite magazines or newspapers explain why the clipper chip initiative is bad idea remember to tailor it to your audience the general public may be slow to grasp why it bad idea since it seems so technical and arcane and innocent sounding try not to come across as flaming libertarian paranoid extremist even if you are one as flaming libertarian paranoid extremist at loss for specific objections that don sound frighteningly technical any suggestions perhaps somebody could post list of these mobilize opposition in industry companies that will presumably develop products that will incorporate the clipper chip should be lobbied against it from within and from without if you work for telecommunications equipment vendor first enlist the aid of your coworkers and fellow engineers against this initiative and then present your company management with united front of engineering talent against this initiative write persuasive memos to your management with your name and your colleagues names on it hold meetings on it one way to do this might be to suggest that these companies should be implementing their own schemes not being limited to the govt scheme find that most of my reasons for opposition to the clipper scheme are algoritm insecurity and mistrust of the govt nsa these are hard to sell in letters to the editor and to nontechnical people any hints or advice maybe small faq type thing why should hate clipper would be good idea james holthaus james holthaus uiowa edu government is an association of men who do violence to the rest of us leo tolstoy pgp public key available on request or from key server path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet vtserf cc vt edu csugrad cs vt edu csugrad cs vt edu not for mail from finchm csugrad cs vt edu michael finchmfinchmfinchmfinchmfinchmfinchmfinchmfinchmfinchmfinchmfinchmfinchmfinchmfinchmfinchmfinchmfinchmfinchmfinchmfinchmfinchmfinchmfinchmfinchmfinchmfinchmfinchmfinchmfinchmfinchm finch newsgroups sci crypt subject re why the clipper algorithm is secret date apr organization virginia tech computer science dept blacksburg va lines message id qtnbf cv6 csugrad cs vt edu references apr18 iecc cambridge ma us nntp posting host csugrad cs vt edu johnl iecc cambridge ma us john levine writes the cryptographic protocol though is another matter see no valid reasons for keeping it secret and as hope ve shown above there it just occurred to me why the algorithm is secret if it were published one could then build physically identical clone versions recall seeing post some time ago saying that if the details of an encryption scheme couldn be revealed then the encryption scheme is worthless believe the statement was in response to somebody saying that they had some new snazzy scheme but the algorithm was secret does this algorithm depend on the fact that the scheme is secret or is it for the stated reasons above mike xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net wupost sdd hp com ncr sd blkhole titipu ed from ed titipu resun com edward reid newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee subject re clipper chip please restrict your followups date sun apr edt organization accuracy ltd message id ve2cqb titipu resun com reply to ed titipu resun com edward reid distribution na mailer uaccess macintosh release v0 lines too many newsgroups nough said thanx edward reid greensboro fl ed titipu resun com or nosc blkhole ed looking for programming contracts especially unisys series xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security pgp path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet digex com digex com not for mail from steve access digex com steve brinich newsgroups sci crypt alt security pgp subject re fighting the clipper initiative date apr organization express access online communications greenbelt md usa lines message id qu0mt mlh access digex net references apr19 ncar ucar edu apr19 news weeg uiowa edu nntp posting host access digex net as flaming libertarian paranoid extremist at loss for specific objections that don sound frighteningly technical the idea that foisting the cripple chip standard on us manufacturers would result in saying sayonara to yet another high tech market isn technical isn in the least difficult to understand and plays on concern lots of people are worried about already xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu spdcc merk tacobel stan from stan tacobel uucp stan newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp or subject re text of white house announcement and as on clipper chip encryp message id x9d92b4w165w tacobel uucp date sun apr edt references apr17 clarinet com organization the temple of stan tbs world hq concord mass usa brad clarinet com brad templeton writes let assume for the moment that the system really is secure unless you get both halves of the encryption key from the two independent escrow houses let say you even trust the escrow houses one is the aclu and the other is the eff and not entirely joking about those two names hi new to internet so this is bit of test message so even token reply would be very appreciated anyways reading this figure this would be as excellent method of corrupting the aclu and the eff as could be wished for who gaurds the guardians etc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet pipex demon gtoal com gtoal newsgroups sci crypt from gtoal gtoal com graham toal subject re automatic online encryption of data date sun apr message id aa12613 pizzabox demon co uk sender usenet demon co uk lines from andersom spot colorado edu marc anderson also how about box that you plug your phone into which would allow encrypted voice communications with someone who has similar box digitizing input speech transmitting and decrypting on the other end don know how public key system could work in this regard but it might heh heh posted this just before reading all the clinton chip messages guess they beat me to it anyway think it would be great idea to develop such product perhaps in the underground as it would otherwise probably become illegal pretty quickly here it really very feasible and shouldn be too expensive all that needed is box with phone jack on one side dsp in the middle to do codec functions of speech compressed bytestream and an rs232 on the other side you plug your phone into it plug the rs232 into your computer and have good old fashioned normal modem on your other rs232 port the cpu in the middle would do the encryption with version of pgp modified to work on byte stream with v32bis or better modems to carry the bytestream it should work quality would only be marginally lower than normal telephone at the very highest price you could use one of those voice mail compatible modems to do the digitisation that puts an upper bound of about on the cost of such box in practice you really ought to be able to get the price well below could do it now in software on my cheap nasty home risc box acorn archimedes with the digitising microphone bought for pounds if knew how to write good speech compression software which don the reason it won work of course is that hardly anyone will have one the only consumer equipment to have encryption will use the wiretap chip economics afraid however we can get about kcps throughput on the internet even with the bottleneck of v32bis modem when we get isdn for all ha ha ha and the new nren it might then be trivial to run compressed speech over tcp ip connection on the internet perhaps we should start thinking now of standard to keep voice on the internet compatible for everyone and side step the clipper stuff and use internet for all our phone calls in future joking path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet pipex demon gtoal com gtoal newsgroups sci crypt from gtoal gtoal com graham toal subject re clipper chip technical details date sun apr message id aa12523 pizzabox demon co uk sender usenet demon co uk lines the protocol key management description published so far is either incomplete or incorrect it leaves me with no idea of how the system would actually work hope the cpsr foia request succeeds so that we get full details wouldn it be easier just to ask denning cs georgetown edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet pipex demon gtoal com gtoal newsgroups sci crypt from gtoal gtoal com graham toal subject re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip date sun apr message id aa12458 pizzabox demon co uk sender usenet demon co uk lines indeed if nsa really designed the algorithm to be secure it very likely as secure as idea or key des however the system as whole isn resistant to practical cryptanalysis in the puzzle palace bamford describes how several nsa employees were turned by foreign presumably kgb agents despite security measures that doubt any big accounting firm could match and nsa confidential data was not subject to being requested by thousands of police organizations and courts across the land ah yes don anyone mention ronald william pelton heh heh heh how embarrassing nsa kgb newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet uunet ca promis com news promis com bell from bell mars dev promis com mike bell subject clipper proposal key length message id bell news promis com sender usenet promis com usenet news system organization promis systems corp references apr16 eff org date mon apr gmt lines danny weitzner djw eff org writes april initial eff analysis of clinton privacy and security proposal details of the proposal escrow the bit key will be divided between two escrow agents each of whom hold bits of each key the manufacturer of the communications device would be required to register all keys with the two independent escrow agents key is tied to the device however not the person using it so if we subvert one of the two escrow agents we only have bit space to search through doesn sound that big is digital telephony subject to known plaintext attack in which case half the key seems to be all that is needed and the two agent escrow arrangement is pointless of course the unknown algorithm might turn gaps in speech into pseudo random sequences or there might be some magic involved or mike bell promis com newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet iris mbvlab wpafb af mil blackbird afit af mil afterlife rlward1 from rlward1 afterlife ncsc mil robert ward subject re text of white house announcement and as on clipper chip encryption message id apr19 afterlife ncsc mil sender rlward1 afterlife ncsc mil robert ward organization national computer security center references c5l17v gh5 dove nist gov bontchev fbihh distribution na date mon apr gmt lines in article bontchev fbihh bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de writes and since the us constitutions guarantees the right to every american to bear arms why is not every american entitled as matter of have you read the applicable part of the constitution and interpreted it in context if not please do so before posting this misinterpretation again it refers to the right of the people to organize militia not for individuals to carry handguns grenades and assault rifles robert ward path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet utcsri eecg toronto edu lewis newsgroups sci crypt from lewis eecg toronto edu david lewis subject off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip message id apr19 jarvis csri toronto edu organization csri university of toronto references tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com qpg8finn982 dns1 nmsu edu bu edu strnlghtc5nrhw qb netcom com pgf srl03 cacs usl edu bb51156 c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu date apr gmt lines in article bb51156 c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu john kelsey writes strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes stuff deleted existence of the key registry system seems to make possible all kinds of possible attacks at small fraction of the expense of trying to build say des keysearch machine as originally described it sounded like any police court combination could acquire the key for given chip hope that not the case since it would imply glaring hole how much does it cost to find one crooked jodge and one crooked cop especially for foreign intelligence agency or organized crime boss however even if more intelligent schemes are used to allow access to the unencrypted phone conversations there will be weak nesses they may be very expensive and very difficult but who would trust his her confidential information to an encryption scheme that for say could by cracked one time in hundred des for all the complaints about bit key would probably cost several million dollars to build keysearch machine for can buy des keysearch machine off the shelf now for approx but it is not sold by that name go buy circuit emulation machine eg quickturn containing bunch of fpgas say to and program each to be des search engine lets say chips running at mhz tests sec time is e6 sec max weeks weeks average can wait that long buy bigger machine david lewis xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net wupost uwm edu cs utexas edu csc ti com tilde csc ti com fstop csc ti com usenet from jdailey asic sc ti com jim dailey subject re once tapped your code is no good any message id c5qfsa ow csc ti com followup to alt privacy clipper sender usenet csc ti com nntp posting host tidss2 asic sc ti com reply to jdailey asic sc ti com organization design automaton div texas instruments inc references qpg8finn982 dns1 nmsu edu date mon apr gmt lines amolitor nmsu edu andrew molitor writes not to pick on mr may in particular of course but isn this kind of the domino theory when one little country falls its neighbor will surely follow and before you know it we re all mining salt in siberia for not turning in our captain crunch secret decoder rings there was an interesting column on the editorial page of the dallas morning news on saturday by walter williams who believe is professor at georgetown wonder if he knows of dorothy you re not in kansas anymore denning the article was titled government slowly eroding our liberties and in it he tells story attributed to the late leonard read who explained that if you wanted to take liberty away from americans you had to know how to cook frog mr read said you can cook frog by boiling pot of water and then throwing the frog in his reflexes are so quick that as soon as his feet touch the water he will leap away you must put the frog in pot of cold water and heat it up bit by bit by the time the frog realizes he being cooked it is too late it is the same with americans if anyone tried to take our freedoms all at once we would naturally rebel and suppress the tyrant but as with successful frog cooking our liberties can be taken little bit at time the last line of the article says it not too late for us but the water is getting pretty warm have toagree that it warm and the clipper is keeping the temperature on an upward course note followups redirected to alt privacy clipper jim jdailey asic sc ti com ti pays absolutely no attention to me or my opinions therefore the foregoing information cannot possibly represent ti viewpoint xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet haven umd edu purdue mentor cc purdue edu noose ecn purdue edu ecn purdue edu prm from prm ecn purdue edu philip moyer subject re text of white house announcement and as on clipper chip encryption message id c5qfwa fzb noose ecn purdue edu sender news noose ecn purdue edu usenet news organization engineering computer network references qmugcinnpu9 gap caltech edu apr17 clarinet com qnn7b ddc sol tis com apr17 clarinet com distribution na date mon apr gmt lines in article apr17 clarinet com brad clarinet com brad templeton writes let assume for the moment that the system really is secure unless you get both halves of the encryption key from the two independent escrow houses let say you even trust the escrow houses one is the aclu and the other is the eff and not entirely joking about those two names in that case the prince of wales has nothing to worry about on this system must respectfully disagree with this assertion brad the government is notoriously sloppy with physical communications and information security they can keep their computers safe and they re trying read dea is not adequately protecting national security information gao imtec for an excellent example of what talking about private sector organizations tend to be even more lax in their security measures believe that the escrow organizations will be penetrated by foreign intelligence services within months if not weeks of their selection private organizations that lack the resources of full fleged intelligence service will take longer perhaps on the order of one to two years nonetheless the penetrations will take place without question philip moyer ecn software staff engineering computer network voice prm ecn purdue edu fax newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet math fu berlin de ifmsun8 ifm uni hamburg de rzsun2 informatik uni hamburg de fbihh bontchev from bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de vesselin bontchev subject re an open letter to mr clinton message id bontchev fbihh sender news informatik uni hamburg de mr news reply to bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de organization virus test center university of hamburg references apr16 yuma acns colostate edu strnlghtc5m2cv hx netcom com date mon apr gmt lines strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes here simple way to convert the clipper proposal to an unexceptionable one make it voluntary as usually you are not reading the proposal does say that it is voluntary program this doesn make it more desirable though that is you get high quality secure nsa classified technology if you agree to escrow your key otherwise you are on your own secure how do you know because nsa is trying to make you believe it trust us yeah right otherwise you are on your own how do you know that tomorrow they will not outlaw encrypring devices that don use their technology because they are promising you gee they are not doing even that read the proposal again regards vesselin vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center university of hamburg tel fax fachbereich informatik agn pgp public key available on request vogt koelln strasse rm mail bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de hamburg germany newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net wupost gumby yale yale edu ira uka de math fu berlin de ifmsun8 ifm uni hamburg de rzsun2 informatik uni hamburg de fbihh bontchev from bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de vesselin bontchev subject re once tapped your code is no good any more message id bontchev fbihh sender news informatik uni hamburg de mr news reply to bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de organization virus test center university of hamburg references tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com qpg8finn982 dns1 nmsu edu bu edu strnlghtc5nrhw qb netcom com distribution na date mon apr gmt lines strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes what follows is my opinion it is not asserted to be the truth so no flames please it is incompetent like almost anything you have posted here so you ll be flamed sorry it comes out of background of years as senior corporate staff executive in two fortune companies your years of background in two fortune companies ve lived years under totalitarian regime and boy can recognize totalitarian plot when see one be happy to use crypto system supplied by the nsa for business if they told me it was more secure than des and in particular resistant to am sure that you would be happy to use anything they tell you is secure we re talking about the intelligent people here or the criminal ones if you don like the previous sentence or those who don want their privacy to be guaranteed to be invadable by the government any current and future government mind you be happy to do so even with escrowed keys provided was happy about the bona fides of the escrow agencies the federal reserve would certainly satisfy me as would something set up by one of the big accounting firms even if you ignore the nonsense of the above statement for moment and even if you are happy with such system and the current escrow agencies now what guarantees that you ll be happy with them tomorrow when the government changes or when the current government throws away the sheep skin all the sheep who are reasoning like you will get caught by surprise but it will be too late because then cryptography that is not guaranteed to be breakable by the government will already have been outlawed after all you ve already got privacy that is said to be breakable only by the law enforcement agencies so if you are law abiding you have no reasons to use stronger one right so if you are using stronger one you have something to hide from the law enforcement agencies right something unlawful right therefore strong crypto is clear idndication that you are doing something unlawful trust the nsa or the president if they stated there were no trap considering the level of competence in cryptology that you have demonstrated in your messages you would trust just anything and no this is not an ad hominem attack it an attack against the contents of your messages grin doors be even happier if committee of independent experts examined the thing under seal of secrecy and reported back that it was secure and how do you know that these experts are not corrupted and how do you know that they will not make mistake and how do you know that the version of the algorithm they will be let to examine is the same as the one that will be really used regarding the mistake even the few information they have let out has revealed serious security hole in the protocol the bit key is split in two bit ones thus the whole system is easily breakable if you have only one of the keys trust something from the nsa long before trust something from some swiss or anybody japanese the swiss or the japanese are motivated by simple greed nsa is motivated by their wish to control the people that why the drug dealers have their accounts in swiss banks instead of in american ones for some reason they do trust the swiss banks more guess they ll trust the swiss encryption more too see idea becoming suddenly popular this may seem surprising to some here but suggest most corporations would feel the same way most many some pick one corporations have an attitude that the nsa is part of our government and we support our government as one very famous ceo put it to me one day it not surprising at all but not because of the reason you give it because it is obvious that the us government has put lot of money behind this program and it will support it thus most corporations will try to get their piece from the pie by supporting it too the same good old greed strong encryption is not widely available now not because of some plot but because the companies don see much money in it it will be available even less if the companies can see any penalties associated with it just some perspective from another point of view yeah just as predicted you are here again to support the new system regards vesselin vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center university of hamburg tel fax fachbereich informatik agn pgp public key available on request vogt koelln strasse rm mail bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de hamburg germany xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net wupost uwm edu cs utexas edu utnut nott bnrgate bcars267 bmdhh130 ricktait from ricktait bnr co uk rick tait subject re what the clipper nay sayers sound like to me message id apr19 bnr ca followup to sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc sender news bnr ca news administrator nntp posting host organization network management systems bell northern research newsreader tin version pl8 references apr19 yuma acns colostate edu distribution na date mon apr gmt lines nathaniel sammons ns111310 lance colostate edu wrote on mon apr gmt if the gov establishes cryptography standard that has to be used by everyone and everyone personal key is divided into two segments and stored at two separate albeit easy to find places and that key is only bits to begin with we are screwed pardon the allusion to the affore mentioned article the gov believe as do many others probably already have the cracking chips for this clipper chip made hell they probably based the encoder on the chip that cracks it that way it easier to break the code but since it is classified algorythm no one knows that they can crack it so easily agreed no agency such as the nsa or whoever would approve the public release of crypto system if they didn already have the technical means or the know how to decrypt everything at their whim surely the whole point of all this madness is to make joe public think that his her communications will be kept safe while james bond at the nsa can if need be have full decrypted access to someone communications that ll be quite heist if they can pull it off thought that the us government were going to release the algorithm to panel of carefully chosen experts who would then study it deeply and report their findings exactly who will these people be academics or government sponsored researchers tiny toons for one and quite scared of this kind of thing and plan to support organizations and even disorganizations who are fighting against this clipper chip in any way that can can only hope that the same sort of thing doesn start filtering over into the ears of the uk government and if the european parliament gets wind of it well we can kiss goodbye to any form of democracy in europe at all do not want the government to be able to have access even with search warrant to my keys and don want those keys to be only bits long to begin with hallelujah rick tait bell northern research europe tel fax network management systems pgp public key available on request new southgate london uk email ricktait bnr co uk rt cix compulink co uk ricktait bnr ca newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc sdd hp com nigel msen com math fu berlin de ifmsun8 ifm uni hamburg de rzsun2 informatik uni hamburg de fbihh bontchev from bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de vesselin bontchev subject re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow message id bontchev fbihh keywords encryption wiretap clipper key escrow mykotronx sender news informatik uni hamburg de mr news reply to bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de organization virus test center university of hamburg references rand org rand org strnlghtc5lgfi jqa netcom com date mon apr gmt lines strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes though some may argue about the nose of the camel it worth noting that the government proposal is limited to scrambled telephony if it is only used for that purpose and does not extend to electronic mail or file as usual david sternlight is demonstrating his inability to read the proposal clearly states the initiative will involve the creation of new products to accelerate the development and use of advanced and secure telecommunications networks and wireless communications links it speaks about telecommunications in general read it again david maybe you ll understand it the next time nah probably not encryption then it is an improvement over the current mass produced standard civilian technology which with few exceptions is limited to easy to break inverters that exactly what the government wants all sheep minded people to think let look at the current situation it allows to almost anybody to eavesdrop almost everybody unless secure and mean secure encryption is used what will happen when if ha optimists the new proposal gets accepted almost nobody except some will be able to eavesdrop everybody else but the ability of these some to eavesdrop will be guaranteed the proposal emphasizes on the former almost nobody which is clearly an improvement and forgets to mention the drawbacks of the latter guaranteed yes my statement assumes that the next step will be to make the strong crypto unlawful you think that it will not happen good luck note that the big issue for the feds is the continued ability to wiretap it not just continued ability it guaranteed ability before we go off the deep end with long discusions about secure crypto for mail and files let focus on this yeah that exactly what your government wants you to think let take small steps one at time concentrate on the current one don think about the future trust us one question that was not asked in the release is whether this proposal is limited to telephony or if the government intends to expand it it not asked because the proposal clearly says that this is the intention they unlike you read what they write though share many of the concerns expressed by some find the proposal less threatening than many others since right now most americans have no secure telephony and any jerk with pair of clip leads and goat can eavesdrop this would also plug up the security hole in cellular and cordless phones yes it will it will stop the jerk who is eavesdropping now it will allow only to the government to eavesdrop if the scheme is secure of course which is yet to be proven but how do you know that the jerk you are fearing now will not get government job tomorrow the new proposal guarantees him the ability to eavesdrop then hell that will even motivate him to get that job if he indeed is that mentally pervert reading between the lines infer that the system is highly secure without access to the keys great the greatest cryptographer of all times david sternlight tm has succeeded to evaluate the new system in the absense of any details whatsoever and has concluded that it is highly secure guess that comes from the background of working some years for the two major crypto evaluating companies right gee now the government can save all that money and trouble to ask secret council of crypto experts to secretly analyse the new secret method for david sternlight has already done all the job for them this would meet the needs of businesses confronted by rich and powerful adversaries including french and japanese security services and rich japanese companies it allows the nsa to make available some of its better stuff while protecting law enforcement needs trust us we re from the government and we re here to help you most legitimate corporations trust the nsa and would be delighted to have high security system certified by them even at the price of depositing keys in escrow see no difficulty in creating reliable those who are prepared to trade their liberties for the promises of future safety do not deserve either this or something like that don have the exact quote but the meaning is the same has been said by one of your great men maybe you should study their works more carefully if you have the brains to understand them of course from my point of view this is fair starting point there are concerns that need to be addressed including the reliability of the escrows but in the main question is to guarantee to availability of really secure cryptography to the masses gee if the proposal was saying we guarantee that every american will still have the full right to use any kind of encryption he would like and regard this proposal as just default voluntary implementation there would have been much less opposition for some reason they didn even try to promise you that wonder why was orwell off only by years return we get access to high security crypto no in return you get crypto that is guaranteed to be crippled many have suggested that des and other systems may be breakable by the nsa and hence others similarly skilled and endowed while the above is just rumors and while even if it is true it is not done easily the new scheme can is guaranteed to be easily breakable by anybody who has the two keys it might be also breakable by somebody who does not have them but knows the right trick or who has only one of them nsa also told you that des is secure why don you simply trust them huh there is at least good possibility which should be checked that the proposed system is not so breakable it doesn have to it is guaranteed to be easily breakable just get the keys it might be even easier but until there is some evidence this is just wild speculation be nor does it have to have trapdoors if the government can get the keys the trapdoors are there in government hands the keys pursuant to legitimate court order thus they can protect legitimate communications against economic adversaries while still being able to eavesdrop on crooks pursuant to court order legitimate and who decides what communications are legitimate oh guess it the government right the guys who already have the keys it kinda if have the keys from your car and am asked to decide who has the right to use it legitimately in discussing this let try to avoid the nastiness personal attacks and noise of some previous threads impossible since you are demonstrating the same level of incompetence and ignorance as in the provious threads this is substantive and technical issue and personal remarks have no place in such discussion unfortunately have yet to see you posting technically competent message regards vesselin vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center university of hamburg tel fax fachbereich informatik agn pgp public key available on request vogt koelln strasse rm mail bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de hamburg germany newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet math fu berlin de ifmsun8 ifm uni hamburg de rzsun2 informatik uni hamburg de fbihh bontchev from bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de vesselin bontchev subject re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow message id bontchev fbihh keywords encryption wiretap clipper key escrow mykotronx sender news informatik uni hamburg de mr news reply to bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de organization virus test center university of hamburg references rand org strnlghtc5lgfi jqa netcom com apr18 yuma acns colostate edu strnlghtc5pucl kp netcom com date mon apr gmt lines strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes nothing doing would be of the slightest interest to president nixon typical example of seep minded thinking we all know that david sternlight is jerk but afraid that in this case of the population will think like him realize it guys nsa dorothy denning and the us government have already won the battle unless unless you succeed to wake up the people but nah that too unlikely the events are happening too fast cryptography is too sophisticated issue and almost nobody cares anyway few thousand of net readers won make the difference if millions are caught asleep too sad regards vesselin vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center university of hamburg tel fax fachbereich informatik agn pgp public key available on request vogt koelln strasse rm mail bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de hamburg germany newsgroups sci crypt alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net wupost uwm edu linac att att allegra ulysses ulysses smb from smb research att com steven bellovin subject more technical details message id apr19 ulysses att com date mon apr gmt organization at bell laboratories lines here are some corrections and additions to hellman note courtesy of dorothy denning again this is reposted with permission two requests first note the roles of s1 and s2 it appears to me and others that anyone who knows those values can construct the unit key and the nature of the generation process for k1 and k2 is such that neither can be produced alone thus the scheme cannot be implemented such that one repository generates the first half key and another generates the second that is ominous second these postings are not revealed scripture nor are they carefully crafted spook postings don attempt to draw out hidden meanings as opposed to say the official announcements of clipper leave denning out of this given hellman record of opposition to des which goes back before some folks on this newsgroup knew how to read don think you can impugn his integrity oh yeah the folks who invented clipper aren stupid if you think something doesn make sense it almost certainly because you don understand their goals steve bellovin date sun apr edt from denning cs georgetown edu dorothy denning subject re clipper chip to long list of folks was also briefed by the nsa and fbi so let me add few comments to marty message the clipper chip will have secret crypto algorithm embedded in the algorithm operates on bit blocks like des and the chip supports all des modes of operation the algorithm uses rounds of scrambling compared with in des in addition to the system key each user will get to choose his or her own key and change it as often as desired call this key plain old when message is to be sent it will first be is the session key shared by the sender and receiver any method public key can be used to establish the session key in the at telephone security devices which will have the new chip the key is negotiated using public key protocol encrypted under then will be encrypted under the unit key uk and the serial number of the unit added to produce three part message which will then be encrypted under the system key sk producing uk serial number sk my understanding is that is not encrypted under sk called the family key and that the decrypt key corresponding to sk is held by law enforcement does anyone have first hand knowledge on this will also check it out but this is am sunday so did not want to wait the unit key will be generated as the xor of two bit random numbers k1 and k2 uk k1 k2 which will be kept by the two escrow the unit key also called the chip key is generated from the serial number as follows let n1 n2 and n3 be bit blocks derived from and let s1 and s2 be two bit seeds used as keys compute the bit block r1 n1 s1 s2 s1 note that this is like using the des in triple encryption mode with two keys similarly compute blocks r2 and r3 starting with n2 and n3 unlear about whether the keys s1 and s2 change the fact that they re called seeds suggests they might then r1 r2 and r3 are concatenated together giving bits the first bits form k1 and the next bits form k2 the remaining bits are discarded authorities who these escrow authorities will be is still to be decided by the attorney general but it was stressed to me that they will not be nsa or law enforcement agencies that they must be parties acceptable to the users of the system as unbiased marty is right on this and the fbi has asked me for suggestions please pass them to me along with your reasons in addition to marty criteria would add that the agencies must have an established record of being able to safeguard highly sensitive information some suggestions ve received so far include sri rand mitre the national labs sandia lanl los alamos treasury gao when court order obtains k1 and k2 and thence the law enforcement agency will use sk to decrypt all information flowing on the suspected link aside it is my guess that they may do this constantly on all links with or without court order since it is almost impossible to tell which links over which message will flow my understanding is that there will be only one decode box and that it will be operated by the fbi the service provider will isolate the communications stream and pass it to the fbi where it will pass through the decode box which will have been keyed with for the wiretap authorizations when levy asked for the details so he could review the cases as required by law the agent told him that his predecessors just turned over blank signed forms every time levi did not comply and changed the system but the lesson is clear no single person or authority should have the power to authorize wiretaps no single person does at least for fbi taps after completing mound of paperwork an agent must get the approval of several people on chain that includes fbi legal counsel before the request is even taken to the attorney general for final approval dorothy denning newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet math fu berlin de ifmsun8 ifm uni hamburg de rzsun2 informatik uni hamburg de fbihh bontchev from bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de vesselin bontchev subject re wh proposal from police point of view message id bontchev fbihh sender news informatik uni hamburg de mr news reply to bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de organization virus test center university of hamburg references apr18 news clarkson edu strnlghtc5puor netcom com date mon apr gmt lines strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes dwight tuinstra posts very interesting message in which he comments on the effects of the clipper chip on state and local police actually reading between the lines it could be very good thing for civil liberties in one respect since it will at least prevent cowboy cops and cowboy state and local agancies from reading your traffic if they tap it illegally instead of reading between the lines try to think little bit ok if that way too difficult to you here are some hints indeed the new proposal imposes some additional burocratic burden on the local police if they badly want to tape the magic cookie recipie that your mom is telling you on the phone so guess what they will do propose that the new technology is removed or implement some facilitations of course you won want to wait until they get the approval from two different agencies to decrypt the conversation between two child molesters because meanwhile those two child molesters might be conspiring about molesting your child right so there should be some way for them to get access to those keys quickly right like they could have copy of the database and worry about warrant later regards vesselin vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center university of hamburg tel fax fachbereich informatik agn pgp public key available on request vogt koelln strasse rm mail bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de hamburg germany xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt security pgp sci crypt comp org eff talk alt privacy newsgroups alt security pgp sci crypt comp org eff talk alt privacy path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net wupost csus edu netcom com grady from grady netcom com ef221 subject re powerful similarity too message id gradyc5qjn7 ali netcom com organization capriccioso newsreader tin version pl6 references gradyc5n33m ta netcom com date mon apr gmt lines ve been asked to supply more specific directions for automated fetching of the source and documentation for agrep the powerful similarity pattern matching tool it is at cs arizona edu in directory agrep readme agrep agrep tar agrep agrep ps agrep agrep ps the ps suffixed files are the optional postscript docs reasonably good research report with benchmarks is included note for macintosh mpw users after few hours of drudgery ported the tool to mpw running under system if you would like me to mail binhexed copy of the tool suitable for dropping in to your mpw tools folder please write other than the more purely cryptographic uses for the tool ve been having lots of fun picking up the lost references to things interested in for example starting search like agrep burning chrome cyberpunkspool immediately finds references like burning crome that have always missed before see how many times john gilmore name is mentioned in the cud archives and how often misspelled how about your name as usual will mail the uuencoded tar upon request if you cannot do anonymous ftp grady netcom com ef221 e2 ad d3 d1 c6 f3 fc ac f7 newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net agate ames purdue mentor cc purdue edu sage cc purdue edu aj from aj sage cc purdue edu john dormer subject re text of white house announcement and as on clipper chip encryption message id c5qjs9 fwf mentor cc purdue edu summary misinterretation got us here today keywords constitution misinterpretation law sender news mentor cc purdue edu usenet news organization purdue daemons references c5l17v gh5 dove nist gov bontchev fbihh apr19 afterlife ncsc mil distribution na date mon apr gmt lines misinterpretation though it should be crime in itself is what united states lawyers use to make their bread and butter in manchester ct few years ago small company wanted to run game system galled lasergames similar in many aspects to photon tm three lawyers and about hundred citizens found an ancient law in manchester books which clearly from context was designed to prohibit travelling carnivals by enumerating the features of carnival which they felt at the time made the prohibition obvious among these things was shooting galleries which is what the lawyers for the opposition to lasergames wanted to harp upon the judge took the two words from this law completely out of context and ruled that lasergames could not operate in manchester keep in mind that most travelling carnivals use projectile weapons in their shooting galleries and not light beams clearly from context lasergames got shafted but if the two words are applied their denial of operating permission was justified if had the text of the law post it but afraid don remember it all well enough to even try that little bit with the two words stuck well though john dormer jad expert cc purdue edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu linac uwm edu cs utexas edu uunet mcsun sun4nl cwi nl brands from brands cwi nl stefan brands newsgroups sci crypt subject report on privacy protecting off line cash available message id charon cwi nl date apr gmt sender news cwi nl organization cwi amsterdam lines recently published new privacy protecting off line electronic cash system as technical report at cwi being phd student at david chaum cryptography group our group has long history in research in the field of privacy protecting cash systems the report is called cs r9323 ps contains pages and can be retrieved from ftp cwi nl from the directory pub cwireports aa the postscript file is suitable for dpi laserprinters abstract from coverpage we present new off line electronic cash system based on problem called the representation problem of which little use has been made in literature thus far our system is the first to be based entirely on discrete logarithms using the representation problem as basic concept some techniques are introduced that enable us to construct protocols for withdrawal and payment that do not use the cut and choose methodology of earlier systems as consequence our cash system is much more efficient in both computation and communication complexity than any such system proposed previously another important aspect of our system concerns its provability contrary to previously proposed systems its correctness can be mathematically proven to very great extent specifically if we make one plausible assumption concerning single hash function the ability to break the system seems to imply that one can break the diffie hellman problem our system offers number of extensions that are hard to achieve in previously known systems in our opinion the most interesting of these is that the entire cash system including all the extensions can be incorporated in setting based on wallets with observers which has the important advantage that double spending can be prevented in the first place rather than detecting the identity of double spender after the fact in particular it can be incorporated even under the most stringent requirements conceivable about the privacy of the user which seems to be impossible to do with previously proposed systems another benefit of our system is that framing attempts by bank have negligible probability of success independent of computing power by simple mechanism from within the system which is something that previous solutions lack entirely furthermore the basic cash system can be extended to checks multi show cash and divisibility while retaining its computational efficiency cryptographers are challenged to try to break this system made particular effort to keep the report as self contained as possible nevertheless if you have any questions please mail to me and will try to reply as good as can any comments are also welcome stefan brands cwi kruislaan sj amsterdam the netherlands tel mail brands cwi nl newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet psinntp panix habs from habs panix com harry shapiro subject re the source of that announcement message id c5qf4a ag panix com organization panix public access unix nyc references marc apr17211937 oliver mit edu tcmayc5o715 mrs netcom com marc apr18174241 oliver mit edu date mon apr gmt lines in marc apr18174241 oliver mit edu marc mit edu marc horowitz n1nzu writes received mail from mitch kapor saying that he did not ask to be on the list and does not know why he was added sure the same applies to others on the list so guess my initial theory was right that the clipper list was just someone idea of bad joke guess should be happy it wasn conspiracy have also been in contact with mitch about this believe him when he says he didn ask to be on the clipper list he also forwarded the traffic he had recieved through that list to me which will be placed at some ftp site however the first alias on the clipper list was csspab which was another mailing list it basically contained the addresses for staffers and board members of the nist security board several of these people had their accounts within the dockmaster domain these are the people we might wish to foia harry harry shapiro habs panix com list administrator of the extropy institute mailing list private communication for the extropian community since path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net bogus sura net udel news intercon com usenet from amanda intercon com amanda walker newsgroups sci crypt subject re once tapped your code is no good any more date mon apr organization intercon systems corporation herndon va usa lines distribution world message id qufsg edt news intercon com references bu edu reply to amanda intercon com amanda walker nntp posting host chaos intercon com newsreader intercon tcp connect ii uni acs bu edu shaen bernhardt writes wish could agree with you ask yourself this why would any private sector entity wish to buy crypto system that was known to be at least partially compromised to use for sensitive but not strategically important traffic if the system was cheap for example don own cordless phone with clipper would if the local men in blue really want to listen to me talk to my friends or order pizza no worse off than am now and don have to worry about local kids or nosy neighbors that is to say clipper raises the bar on insecure channels it doesn make them secure by any means but wall even if the fbi can get master key by court order is still better than keep off the grass sign the answer seems obvious to me they wouldn there is other hardware out there not compromised des as an example triple des as better one so where can buy des encrypted cellular phone how much does it cost personally cylink stuff is out of my budget for personal use how can you reconcile the administrations self proclaimed purpose of providing law enforcement with access to encrypted data without making the clipper system the only crypto available in the the second and fourth amendments do come to mind amanda walker intercon systems corporation newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net sol ctr columbia edu ira uka de math fu berlin de ifmsun8 ifm uni hamburg de rzsun2 informatik uni hamburg de fbihh bontchev from bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de vesselin bontchev subject re text of white house announcement and as on clipper chip encryption message id bontchev fbihh sender news informatik uni hamburg de mr news reply to bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de organization virus test center university of hamburg references c5l17v gh5 dove nist gov bontchev fbihh apr19 afterlife ncsc mil distribution na date mon apr gmt lines rlward1 afterlife ncsc mil robert ward writes and since the us constitutions guarantees the right to every american to bear arms why is not every american entitled as matter of have you read the applicable part of the constitution and interpreted it in context yes btw the appropriate amendments were posted here some time ago if not please do so before posting this misinterpretation again it refers to the right of the people to organize militia not for individual to carry handguns grenades and assault rifles it ok it ok just month ago expressed my belief that the right to have means to shoot your neighbor is not that much necessary to ensure people right to be free and got flamed by lots of american gun supporters so thought that never mind the new cripple chip is purely american problem so deal with the mess yourselves just wanted to share with you bit of my experience of living years under totalitarian regime bulgarian because thought that it might be useful to you oh well regards vesselin vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center university of hamburg tel fax fachbereich informatik agn pgp public key available on request vogt koelln strasse rm mail bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de hamburg germany path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu gatech concert duke srt from srt duke cs duke edu stephen tate newsgroups sci crypt subject re why the clipper algorithm is secret message id pike cs duke edu date apr gmt references apr17 ulysses att com apr18 iecc cambridge ma us organization duke university computer science dept durham lines in article apr18 iecc cambridge ma us johnl iecc cambridge ma us john levine writes it just occurred to me why the algorithm is secret if it were published one could then build physically identical clone versions of the chip that would interoperate with official clipper chips but the cloner wouldn provide the keys to the escrow houses hmmn not necessarily they could release the details of the algorithm without releasing the system key called sk by hellman that would make most people happy and with some sort of verification procedure before key exchange the official chips would only work with other official chips in other words secrecy of sk makes physically identical clone versions impossible secrecy of the algorithm shouldn be necessary of course revealing the algorithm opens them up to attacks on sk since all units share this key compromising it may be big deal personally wouldn feel too comfortable knowing that one secret bit number held in many places was all that guaranteed my security of course compromise of sk doesn necessarily mean that the system is compromised but it impossible to tell whether or not that true with secret algorithm incidentally what to keep secret algorithm from using the secret sk as the main key with uk being only marginally important then court order for uk may not even be necessary to do wiretap steve tate srt cs duke edu the reason why mathematics enjoys special esteem dept of computer science above all other sciences is that its laws are duke university absolutely certain and indisputable while those of all durham nc other sciences are to some extent debatable einstein newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net wupost uunet pipex uknet glasgow skt from skt dcs glasgow ac uk simon train subject help me please message id c5qlju b1q dcs glasgow ac uk organization glasgow university computing science dept distribution net date mon apr gmt lines am phd student can get the sci crypt group posted directly to me also would like some feed back on the encryption schemes that my research in finite fields can be applied to any takers reply to gamv25 udcf gla ac uk thanks yours gavin path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net bogus sura net udel news intercon com usenet from amanda intercon com amanda walker newsgroups sci crypt subject re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow date mon apr organization intercon systems corporation herndon va usa lines distribution world message id quhao ek3 news intercon com references pmetzger apr18141006 snark shearson com reply to amanda intercon com amanda walker nntp posting host chaos intercon com newsreader intercon tcp connect ii pmetzger snark shearson com perry metzger writes political dissident scared shitless of the feds listening in on my calls my opinions are the sort that would get me disappeared in slightly less free society and who knows what sort of society we will be in in five or ten years have friends who have had their phones tapped none of this is theoretical to me understand believe it or not and there are any number of kinds of conversation and communication engage in that wouldn even consider using this scheme for on the other hand don see clipper as providing secure channel it just prevents casual eavesdropping this is part of why am not worried about it per se trying to look at clipper as serious security tool is simply ludicrous it voice scrambler nothing more there is still plenty of market for real crypto as for its better than the status quo well first of all you can get cryptophone from companies like cylink today and they work well they cost an arm and leg though clipper is obviously aimed at the mass market it certainly won put cylink out of business in addition number of groups are now working on building software to turn any pc into privacy enhanced phone right now and they are all working in overdrive mode this is old news can do this now there are no crypto restrictions yet you can use anything you want right now the point is to maintain that right there are restrictions example we re networking software vendor with large overseas share of our market we cannot currently ship pem or even simple des in our products without case by case approval from the department of state itar presents material trade barrier to us firms trying to compete in international information systems markets sure you can use whatever freebie software you want to talk over bbs in the usa on the other hand want strong crypto pkcs for example to be the default for electronic mail worldwide want priests to be able to hear confession over email want lawyers to be able to talk to clients in confidence over email or doctors talk with patients want to be able to order products from my favorite japanese mail order catalog over the net want to be able to sign contracts transact business and so on electronically this is so far infeasible as result of the current restrictions on crytographic systems especially beyond the borders of the usa clipper is irrelevant and if it distracts the authorities into feeling safe all the better its only danger is if it emboldens them into trying to put more restrictions into place on the theory that it is good enough for anyone who has nothing to hide that argument is of course utter bs just as much as no one needs an assault rifle amanda walker intercon systems corporation path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net bogus sura net udel news intercon com usenet from amanda intercon com amanda walker newsgroups sci crypt subject re text of white house announcement and as on clipper chip encryption date mon apr organization intercon systems corporation herndon va usa lines distribution world message id quheo ek4 news intercon com references apr19 afterlife ncsc mil reply to amanda intercon com amanda walker nntp posting host chaos intercon com newsreader intercon tcp connect ii rlward1 afterlife ncsc mil robert ward writes it refers to the right of the people to organize militia not for individuals to carry handguns grenades and assault rifles false as federal courts have affirmed on many occasions this is getting out of sci crypt territory though amanda walker intercon systems corporation newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu mstar n8emr colnet res from res colnet cmhnet org rob stampfli subject re fifth amendment and passwords message id apr18 colnet cmhnet org organization little to none references apr15 magnus acs ohio state edu c5jzsz jzo cs uiuc edu date sun apr gmt lines am postive someone will correct me if am wrong but doesn the fifth also cover not being forced to do actions that are self incriminating from mike godwin mnemonic eff org posted with permission carl sadly it does not suspects can be compelled to give handwriting and voice exemplars and to take blood and dna tests am sure that mike is correct on this point am also pretty sure that administering truth serum would be ruled violation of your right not to incriminate yourself but what is the salient difference both drawing blood and injecting truth serum incapacitate you for while but do no permanent damage is it simply that we have come to view one as acceptable while the other is viewed as fundamental violation of one rights if this is the case how do we expand the protections of the th amendment to incorporate new technologies without the results being hodgepodge of different judges personal opinions rob stampfli rob colnet cmhnet org the neat thing about standards ham radio kd8wk n8jyv oh there are so many to choose from xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net noc near net uunet news cs jhu edu jyusenkyou arromdee from arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu ken arromdee subject re once tapped your code is no good any more message id c5qnj2 is8 blaze cs jhu edu sender news blaze cs jhu edu usenet news system organization johns hopkins university cs dept references apr17 clarinet com tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com qpg8finn982 dns1 nmsu edu date mon apr gmt lines in article qpg8finn982 dns1 nmsu edu amolitor nmsu edu andrew molitor writes yes those evil guys in the fbi can probably with some effort abuse the system got news for you if the evil guys in the fbi decide they want to persecute you they re gonna and you re gonna hate it fact is the fbi doesn want to listen to your phone calls and if they do and if you re using triple des they ll just get parabolic microphone and point it at your head just because they can do it anyway somehow does not mean it is smart to make the job easier for them on the first day after christmas my truelove served to me leftover turkey on the second day after christmas my truelove served to me turkey casserole that she made from leftover turkey days deleted flaming turkey wings pizza hut commercial and tlu gic bait ken arromdee arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu newsgroups sci crypt alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com emory cs utk edu lambda msfc nasa gov robichau from robichau lambda msfc nasa gov paul robichaux subject suggestions for escrow agencies was re more technical details message id apr19 lambda msfc nasa gov reply to robichau lambda msfc nasa gov organization new technology inc references apr19 ulysses att com date mon apr gmt lines below is my response to dr denning letter to steven bellovin comments are invited paul in alt privacy clipper steve bellovin posted your message to him which included brief passage concerning selection of agencies as escrow agencies am glad to see that the proposal as written states that the escrow agencies won be law enforcement agencies would argue however that one of the escrow agencies shouldn be federal at all as private citizen would feel much more secure in my person and papers knowing that an organization committed to individual civil liberties the aclu and the nra come to mind was safeguarding half of my key both the aclu and the nra are resistent to government pressure by the simple expedient fact that they are not supported funded or overtly controlled by the government of those federal and federally funded candidate agencies that you mentioned have the following comments sri rand mitre and national labs agree that they have great experience safeguarding sensitive information am not convinced that they would adequately safeguard this information since in any case requiring disclosure there likely to be sigificant pressure for disclosure possibly wrongful disclosure gao perhaps would like to see more concrete evidence of their fidelity and ability treasury surely you re joking perhaps you ask batf to safeguard keys maybe the federal reserve would be better choice ever since last fall trial balloon was posted in sci crypt your name has been synonymous with those who place great deal of trust in the ability of government agencies and agents to act within the law agree with you in part those agencies and agents almost always act properly however there have been enough cases where sworn agents of the federal government have acted wrongly to make me feel that having two federal agencies as key repositories is unacceptable respectfully paul robichaux not speaking for nti bcss or nasa paul robichaux kd4jzg help stop the big brother chip nti mission software development div ripem key on request path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com paladin american edu howland reston ans net wupost uunet digex com digex com not for mail from steve access digex com steve brinich newsgroups sci crypt subject re text of white house announcement and as on clipper chip encryption date apr organization express access online communications greenbelt md usa lines distribution na message id quidn bqv access digex net references c5l17v gh5 dove nist gov bontchev fbihh apr19 afterlife ncsc mil nntp posting host access digex net you re drifting off topic in any case if you check on any of the topics devoted to gun rights issues you will find ample evidence that the misinformation is your assertion that the term the people in the second amendment has mysteriously taken on meaning diametrically opposite the meaning of the exact same term in the first and fourth amendments newsgroups sci crypt alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net noc near net uunet mcsun chsun bernina caronni from caronni nessie cs id ethz ch germano caronni subject re more technical details message id apr19 bernina ethz ch sender news bernina ethz ch usenet news system organization swiss federal institute of technology eth zurich ch references apr19 ulysses att com date mon apr gmt lines in article apr19 ulysses att com smb research att com steven bellovin writes here are some corrections and additions to hellman note courtesy of dorothy denning again this is reposted with permission two requests first note the roles of s1 and s2 it appears to me and others that anyone who knows those values can construct the unit key and the nature of the generation process for k1 and k2 is such that neither can be produced alone thus the scheme cannot be implemented such that one repository generates the first half key and another generates the second that is ominous second these postings are not revealed scripture nor are they carefully crafted spook postings don attempt to draw out hidden meanings as opposed to say the official announcements of clipper leave denning out of this given hellman record of opposition to des which goes back before some folks on this newsgroup knew how to read don think you can impugn his integrity oh yeah the folks who invented clipper aren stupid if you think something doesn make sense it almost certainly because you don understand their goals this is an addition posted with permission to some tech details of cliper they enligthen the use of s1 and s2 for keygeneration date mon apr edt from denning cs cosc georgetown edu dorothy denning subject re clipper chip just had another conversation with nsa to clarify some of the features of clipper please feel free to distribute this and my other messages on clipper the name of the encryption algorithm is skipjack martin hellman had written and the serial number of the unit added to produce three part message which will then be encrypted under the system key sk producing uk serial number sk to which responded my understanding is that is not encrypted under sk called the family key and that the decrypt key corresponding to sk is held by law enforcement does anyone have first hand knowledge on this was correct in that is not encrypted under sk however skipjack being single key system there is of course not separate decrypt key for the family key sk the unit key also called the chip key is generated from the serial number as follows let n1 n2 and n3 be bit blocks derived from and let s1 and s2 be two bit seeds used as keys compute the bit block r1 n1 s1 s2 s1 note that this is like using the des in triple encryption mode with two keys similarly compute blocks r2 and r3 starting with n2 and n3 unlear about whether the keys s1 and s2 change the fact that they re called seeds suggests they might then r1 r2 and r3 are concatenated together giving bits the first bits form k1 and the next bits form k2 the remaining bits are discarded the seeds s1 and s2 do not change the whole process is performed on laptop computer and s1 and s2 are supplied by two independent people so that no one person knows both the same s1 and s2 are used during an entire programming session to generate keys for stream of serial numbers everything is discarded at the end the computer could be thrown out if desired the serial number is bits and the values n1 n2 and n3 are formed by padding the serial number with fixed bit blocks separate padding for each value the resulting keys k1 and k2 are output onto separate floppy disks paired up with their serial number each pair is stored in separate file the floppy disks are taken away by two separate people on behalf of the two escrow agencies dorothy denning denning cs georgetown edu am sure more technical detail will be known when time goes by please remark that in posting this do not automatically agree with it contents and implications so don swamp my mailbox just think this is an valuable addition to the less than technical discussion that is rising here and no don mind if you call s1 and s2 backdoor as could imagine the key generation process working without these seeds and the dependency of k1 k2 from the serial number friendly greetings germano caronni instruments register only through things they re designed to register space still contains infinite unknowns pgp key id germano caronni caronni nessie cs id ethz ch fd560ccf586f3da747ea3c94dd01720f newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net sol ctr columbia edu caen uwm edu cs utexas edu hermes chpc utexas edu news utdallas edu corpgate crchh327 crchh403 ethridge from ethridge crchh403 allen ethridge subject re once tapped your code is no good any more sender news news rich bnr ca news server message id c5qo1y bki news rich bnr ca date mon apr gmt references qufsg edt news intercon com nntp posting host crchh403 organization bnr inc newsreader tin version pl6 lines amanda walker amanda intercon com wrote uni acs bu edu shaen bernhardt writes deletions how can you reconcile the administrations self proclaimed purpose of providing law enforcement with access to encrypted data without making the clipper system the only crypto available in the the second and fourth amendments do come to mind think heard someplace misc legal comp org eff talk that the courts have pretty much eliminated the fourth amendment already allen well sf ca us words got me the wound ethridge bnr ca and will get me well my opinions are my own if you believe it jim morrison newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net gatech purdue yuma holland from holland cs colostate edu douglas craig holland subject re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow sender news yuma acns colostate edu news account message id apr19 yuma acns colostate edu date mon apr gmt references strnlghtc5lgfi jqa netcom com apr18 yuma acns colostate edu strnlghtc5pucl kp netcom com nntp posting host beethoven cs colostate edu organization colorado state university computer science department keywords encryption wiretap clipper key escrow mykotronx lines in article strnlghtc5pucl kp netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes in article apr18 yuma acns colostate edu holland cs colostate edu douglas craig holland writes let me ask you this would you trust richard nixon with your crypto keys wouldn take it you mean president nixon not private citizen nixon sure nothing doing would be of the slightest interest to president nixon are you sure you aren being watched let me remind you that watergate was only the tip of the iceberg nixon extensively used the nsa to watch people because he didn like them according to decrypting the puzzle palace presumably the nsa is restricted from conducting american surveillance by both the foreign intelligence surveillance act of fisa and series of presidential directives beginning with one issued by president ford following richard nixon bold misuse of the nsa in which he explicitly directed the nsa to conduct widespread domestic surveillance of political dissidents and drug users of course just because there are laws saying the gov is not supposed to conduct illegal surveillance doesn mean those laws can be broken when they are in the way doug holland xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp org eff talk sci crypt newsgroups comp org eff talk sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov sdd hp com caen batcomputer munnari oz au uniwa cujo cc curtin edu au zrepachol from zrepachol cc curtin edu au paul repacholi subject re what is going on message id apr20 cc curtin edu au lines sender news cujo curtin edu au news manager organization curtin university of technology references apr14 mnemosyne cs du edu qhc2p d8 transfer stratus com apr16 cc curtin edu au apr17 cc curtin edu au gthomas sfu ca distribution inet date mon apr gmt in article gthomas sfu ca gthomas fraser sfu ca guy thomas writes zrepachol cc curtin edu au paul repacholi writes in article apr16 cc curtin edu au zrepachol cc curtin edu au paul repacholi writes if you can be bothered reading get the video manufacturing consent in reply to mail queries don know if video is available yet asked about month ao and was told rsn yes it is from the national film board of canada ah not in the usa thats relief thought reality must be slipping for second st noam was on the radio tonight he has just published new book years published by south end guess could some bostonian confirm please would love to hear what he thinks of the clipper scam paul ps the first posting saw thought was joke in very bad taste my appologies to the person who broke the news newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu csn boulder ucsu spot colorado edu cuffell from cuffell spot colorado edu tim cuffel subject re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow message id apr19 ucsu colorado edu keywords encryption wiretap clipper key escrow mykotronx sender news ucsu colorado edu usenet news system nntp posting host spot colorado edu organization university of colorado boulder references strnlghtc5lgfi jqa netcom com apr18 yuma acns colostate edu strnlghtc5pucl kp netcom com date mon apr gmt lines in article strnlghtc5pucl kp netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes in article apr18 yuma acns colostate edu holland cs colostate edu douglas craig holland writes let me ask you this would you trust richard nixon with your crypto keys wouldn take it you mean president nixon not private citizen nixon sure nothing doing would be of the slightest interest to president nixon david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted ergo if your life is sufficiently boring you have no need for privacy this is not meant to be personal just the logical conclusion of your statement tim cuffel finger for pgp the cia has admitted that the assassination of saddam hussien was one of their goals they failed of course seems as though that motorcade through downtown dallas trick only works once newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc sdd hp com swrinde network ucsd edu qualcom qualcomm com unix ka9q ampr org karn from karn unix ka9q ampr org phil karn subject re fifth amendment and passwords message id apr19 qualcomm com sender news qualcomm com nntp posting host unix ka9q ampr org reply to karn servo qualcomm com organization qualcomm inc references apr15 magnus acs ohio state edu c5jzsz jzo cs uiuc edu apr18 colnet cmhnet org date mon apr gmt lines in article apr18 colnet cmhnet org res colnet cmhnet org rob stampfli writes sadly it does not suspects can be compelled to give handwriting and voice exemplars and to take blood and dna tests am sure that mike is correct on this point am also pretty sure that administering truth serum would be ruled violation of your right not to incriminate yourself but what is the salient difference you can find the salient difference in any number of th amendment related supreme court opinions the court limits th amendment protections to what they call testimonial evidence as opposed to physical evidence the whole question would hinge on whether crypto key would be considered testimonial evidence suppose arguments could be made either way though obviously would hope it would be considered testimonial phil path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech concert duke srt from srt duke cs duke edu stephen tate newsgroups sci crypt alt privacy clipper subject re more technical details message id pike cs duke edu date apr gmt references apr19 ulysses att com apr19 bernina ethz ch followup to sci crypt organization duke university computer science dept durham lines in article apr19 bernina ethz ch caronni nessie cs id ethz ch germano caronni actually dorothy denning writes the seeds s1 and s2 do not change let me see if have this straight if person knows s1 and s2 and the serial number of the unit it easy to reconstruct uk of course if they know sk the family key they can easily get the serial number of any unit that has made transmission so with s1 and s2 being used for while batch of the unit keys the number of used s1 s2 pairs will probably be fairly low of course you have to believe that the nsa fbi name your favorite government agency will know sk so all it needs is the s1 s2 pairs and presto nasty details like court orders for wire taps are no longer necessary now not one of the people who distrusts the government at every turn but taking someone word for it that the s1 s2 pairs are not kept around is pushing what willing to believe just little bit too far steve tate srt cs duke edu the reason why mathematics enjoys special esteem dept of computer science above all other sciences is that its laws are duke university absolutely certain and indisputable while those of all durham nc other sciences are to some extent debatable einstein newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net wupost gumby yale cs yale edu news mail gateway daemon from grant dockmaster ncsc mil lynn grant subject re key registering bodies message id dockmaster ncsc mil sender grant ca1 dockmaster ncsc mil organization yale cs mail news gateway date mon apr gmt lines if we do not trust the nsa to be registrar of clipper chip key halves would not trust mitre either mitre does lots of work for nsa at least in the trusted product evaluation program evaluation of commercial off the shelf software for its efficacy in safeguarding classified information and assume in other less open programs there are at least two other ffrdcs federally funded research and development corporations that work for nsa aerospace corporation and the institute for defense analysis now if nsa were to be untrustworthy position that am neutral about for purposes of this posting it would be in position to exert economic pressure upon mitre to release key halves on demand it could just say if you don cooperate with us we ll place all our evaluation contracts with aerospace and ida am not saying that people at nsa mitre aerospace or ida are dishonest folk but since they are people and people occasionally go bad the system works better if organizations that you are depending upon to be independent really are and of course speak for myself not my employer lynn grant newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net bogus sura net udel news intercon com psinntp shearson com newshost pmetzger from pmetzger snark shearson com perry metzger subject re wh proposal from police point of view in reply to strnlght netcom com message of mon apr gmt message id pmetzger apr19122105 snark shearson com sender news shearson com news reply to pmetzger lehman com organization lehman brothers references apr18 news clarkson edu strnlghtc5puor netcom com date mon apr gmt lines in article strnlghtc5puor netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes there has been extensive discussion in the eff forum for example about inadmissible taps being used to develop information that could then lead to admissible evidence this might put stop to such things which must from time to time be simple fishing expeditions far more likely these things will continue to be done no matter what assurances we are given key escrow is likely going to prove to be joke perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer le monde va de lui meme newsgroups sci crypt alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu sol ctr columbia edu ira uka de scsing switch ch bernina caronni from caronni nessie cs id ethz ch germano caronni subject re more technical details message id apr19 bernina ethz ch sender news bernina ethz ch usenet news system organization swiss federal institute of technology eth zurich ch references apr19 ulysses att com apr19 bernina ethz ch date mon apr gmt lines hmm followup on my own posting well who cares first let me try to work out the facts that we get to know about the clipper chip from what hellman and denning were able to tell us the chip itself is not confined to digital telephony but performs general encryption in symmetric manner the chip supports cfb ofb ecb and whatever the fourth mode of operation for des is the algorithm consists of rounds of whatever and takes bit keys input data seems to be bit yes so if two people want secure communication whatever that means when clipper is involved they have first to agree on one secret key or is it one key per direction they can exchange this key via dh schemes or however somehow the two feed their so won secret key into the clipper chip which is now ready to work the clipper chip carries an unique serial number bit and key bits these key bits seem to have been gained by encrypting the serial number with seed bits the seed bits seem not to be stored in the chip at beginning of communication and perhaps at certain invtervals whithin before sending the fist real bit output of the first encryption the clipper chip put out packets guess which represent the serial number and the session key this might look like chipkeyk1 k2 serial number where is transformation of these packets involving family key this family sp key is equal for all chips might be simple xor after that the digital phone call can be done as usual every packet being encrypted and decrypted by clipper denning describes how k1 and k2 shall be generated using seed of bit now leaving alone politics which does not concern me as much as you not being an american citicien tm there are some weak points in this scheme which might be exploited by several parties as far as know about the generation of k1 k2 s1 and s2 look like the obvious backdoor they could be used to generate the chip keys by knowing the serial number and also the family key of the chip really can imagine why these seeds would be needed otherwise as true random sources for the generation of the k1 k2 can be bought for not to much money then the escrows each of them will get bit of bit key security could as little as existant be maximized by giving them bits each which have to be xored together to give the k1 k2 now let simply assume the escrows are trustworthy and can be fooled by criminals or law enforchemnt agencies and there will be no quarrel between escrows and which would hinder the in doing their duties and so on and so on once the keys are surrendered the corresponding chip is compromised forever not very clever imho how about sending in the encrypted session keys for each phone call that the police or whoever want to listen to escrows could then simply decode this session key and send it back to police and would naturally not do this after the warrant has expired this would be better technical solution but guess politics will not work that way apparently as miss dennings stated the only one performing actually decodes of intercepted messages shall be the fbi great so local guys can not inter cept understand your traffic anymore does this mean that the fbi monopolizes the right to do legal wiretaps how is law over there have no idea who is allowed to tap and who not this certainly means that watched communi cations will be routed automatically from the service providing company to the fbi if the communicaiton is watched one and this means as far as understand it that the family key has to be known by each switching company and those providing cellular phone servies etcetc so the family key will not be very secret and thus serial numbers of calls will be readable by anybody who cares like traffic analysis what do you guess what happens if you use the chip in ecb mode and the first few packets of the chip are somehow lost or garbled so the session key would not be actually broadcasted over the line hmmm shouldn be so difficult to do that and now last point for the other side after all have read and heard about clipper not the programming language for dbase is it it seems to have many advantages which shold not be overseen now an afterthought to your rights please note that have no idea what am talking about from grady netcom com ef221 amendment congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof or abridging the freedom of speech or of the press or the right of the people peaceably to assemble and to petition the government for redress of grievances if this text is actually in your bill of rights who can overrule this but freedom of speech is not secrecy of speech maybe you need to extend your amendment to cover information and communication too am not very sure in what position your government actually is legally when it tries to ban cryptography and arms amendment say you may have them but not under what conditions hmm tricky situation actually it will make not much sense to discuss that topic in sci crypt discussion of technical details and vulnerabilites of the system are highly suggested and appreciated friendly greetings germano caronni disclaimer everything in here is derived from things heard and read from other persons so everything could be wrong all opinions and thoughts in here are mine and subject to change without further notification no warranty neither implicit not explicit etc etc etc ad nauseam please don ask me about political opinions as might not bother to re ply for further information read the last line of metzgers signature instruments register only through things they re designed to register space still contains infinite unknowns pgp key id germano caronni caronni nessie cs id ethz ch fd560ccf586f3da747ea3c94dd01720f xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt privacy sci crypt alt security comp security misc comp org eff talk newsgroups alt privacy sci crypt alt security comp security misc comp org eff talk path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net agate ames nsisrv news1 gsfc nasa gov charon gsfc nasa gov paul from paul charon gsfc nasa gov paul olson subject re white house public encryption management fact sheet message id apr199313020883 charon gsfc nasa gov news software vax vms vnews sender usenet skates gsfc nasa gov organization mission operations and data systems references c5lgaz dove nist gov qnav4 r3l transfer stratus com distribution na date mon apr gmt lines in article qnav4 r3l transfer stratus com cme ellisun sw stratus com carl ellison writes in article c5lgaz dove nist gov clipper csrc ncsl nist gov clipper chip announcement writes further the attorney general shall utilize funds from the department of justice asset forfeiture super surplus fund to effect this purchase talk about adding insult to injury for one believe that the use of civil forfeiture should be abolished by decent administration not continued instead it looks like that ill gotten gain will be used to help pay for wiretap equipment wholeheartedly agree knowing that we have let our law enforcement agencies seize our property against the fifth amendment of our constitution tells me that we are absolving ourselves of our responsibility for self governance we have to take our government back from the self serving politicians who create laws and rules only to better their positions within the government we have allowed them to take too much power from the people of this nation that situation has to be changed allowing the law enforcement agencies to use the seized property to pay off drug informants who lie and continue to deal in drugs is tantamount to making pact with the devil himself it vicious cycle the law enforcement agencies are motivated to seize property to fund their own activities and having no easy way for the citizen to regain the property intact once taken gives even more incentive for the agencies to take property it also interesting to note that two months ago rush limbaugh said that clinton would have the plumbers out in force shortly clinton and his henchmen firmly believe in strong ubiquitous government control anytime leader believes in that the leader will use every means possible to retain that control and take more we have to take our government back otherwise we will end up living in the equivalent of high tech third world dictatorship we have to take responsibility for ourselves our personal welfare and our actions paul olson vax systems manager resident amiga addict voice decnet charon paul internet paul charon gsfc nasa gov xx disclaimer statements in my messages are wholely my own amiga ignorance is renewable resource rourke xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp org eff talk sci crypt newsgroups comp org eff talk sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com network ucsd edu munnari oz au uniwa cujo cc curtin edu au zrepachol from zrepachol cc curtin edu au paul repacholi subject re clipper chip long follow up message id apr20 cc curtin edu au lines sender news cujo curtin edu au news manager organization curtin university of technology references rand org date mon apr gmt in article rand org jim rand org jim gillogly writes this document is in the anonymous ftp directory at nist looks to me like the other shoe has dropped jim gillogly trewesday astron thanks for posting this and making it available this post will be long will comment on most of it and am reluctantly leaving all of the original in place to provide context please note that an alt group has been set up for the clipper stuff note this file will also be available via anonymous file transfer from csrc ncsl nist gov in directory pub nistnews and via the nist computer security bbs at the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april statement by the press secretary the president today announced new initiative that will bring the federal government together with industry in voluntary hum at vlsi and mykotronx are industry wonder what happened to ibm this should be right up their street and mandateed scheme is voluntary mr orwell would love this program to improve the security and privacy of telephone communications while meeting the legitimate needs of law enforcement telephone encryption and scrambleing are years behind digital ones like rsa idea or even des the above while literaly true is clasic straw man claim in the context of non real time circuits such as mail and the like the initiative will involve the creation of new products to accelerate the development and use of advanced and secure telecommunications networks and wireless communications links would modestly propose that mandated use of isdn would do more for commun ications than this lot for too long there has been little or no dialogue between our private sector and the law enforcement community to resolve the tension between economic vitality and the real challenges of protecting americans rather than use technology to accommodate the sometimes competing interests of economic growth privacy and law enforcement previous policies have pitted government against industry and the rights of privacy against law enforcement sophisticated encryption technology has been used for years to protect electronic funds transfer it is now being used to protect electronic mail and computer files while encryption normmaly des technology can help americans protect business secrets and the unauthorized release of personal information it also can be used by terrorists drug dealers and other criminals note the use of the word business in the above the whole tenor of this release seems to be establishing ground rule that only business use is legitimate for debate if you want the nothings you drop in your wife ear to remain secret and private that is not even on the agenda for debate note that there is no role for you to contain private info in this the only reference is to information already in the hands of others the unauthorized release bit is also drawing long bow most of these cases are by people who have legitimate access abusing it and revealing or often selling the info these people are of course in this proposal the people who will have the keys the criminals also use lawers courts the cia white house officials and pens to go about their business when will they be outlawed as well yeah several of them would be better idea than clipper them again the protections of law and the courts have been seriously erroded over the last decade ofr so state of the art microcircuit called the clipper chip has been developed by government engineers the chip represents nsa new approach to encryption technology yeah this bit is very true it can be used in new relatively inexpensive encryption devices that can be attached to an ordinary telephone it scrambles telephone communications using an encryption algorithm that is more powerful than many in commercial use today note the repeated mixing of telephone scrabeling and encryption demo of the above claim on an ordanary pots would be good nights entertainment suspect note also the many not all as the general tone implies this new technology will help companies protect proprietary information protect the privacy of personal phone conversations and prevent unauthorized release of data transmitted electronically at the same time this technology preserves the ability of federal state and local law enforcement agencies to intercept lawfully the phone conversations of criminals the case record seems to indicate that what is needed is brutal tightening of the current abuses have not heard yet of case that was impeaded by the use of secure encryption by the men in black the other side abuse by law enforcers is well documented even by govt agencies and the phone vs other coms is blurred yet again key escrow system will be established to ensure that the clipper chip is used to protect the privacy of law abiding americans key escrow system will be established to ensure that the clipper chip is used to protect the privacy of law abiding americans lets run that line twice not very carefully what it says the stated purpose of the key eschrow is to make the use of clipper compulsory note the word ensure as to protect or law abiding will leave to you so to the person who asked if it included the outlawing of other encryptions the answer in this press release is yes each device containing the chip will have two unique keys numbers that will be needed by authorized government agencies to decode messages encoded by the device when the device is manufactured the two keys will be deposited separately in two key escrow data bases that will be established by the attorney general access to these keys will be limited to government officials with legal authorization to conduct wiretap just as they only can wiretap now with warrent the clipper chip technology provides law enforcement with no new authorities to access the content of the private conversations of americans just makes sure that the illegal ones are preserved to demonstrate the effectiveness of this new technology the attorney general will soon purchase several thousand of the new devices in addition respected experts from outside the government will be offered access to the confidential details of the algorithm to assess its capabilities and publicly report their findings where do you find many experts any ex kgb people looking for contract and as later posting asks what of the stu iiis they already have it will be very interesting to see if the military and us embasies start to use it after all it is secure isn it the govt will answer that point by its own actions the chip is an important step in addressing the problem of encryption dual edge sword encryption helps to protect the privacy of individuals and industry but it also can shield criminals and terrorists we need the clipper chip and other approaches that can both provide law abiding citizens with access to the encryption they need and prevent criminals from using it to hide their illegal activities in order to assess technology trends and explore new approaches like the key escrow system the president has directed government agencies to develop comprehensive policy on encryption that accommodates the privacy of our citizens including the need to employ voice or data encryption for business purposes again personal use seems to be unaskable question the ability of authorized officials to access telephone calls and data under proper court or other legal order when necessary to protect our citizens ah so warrents are not always needed it seems the effective and timely use of the most modern technology to build the national information infrastructure needed to promote economic growth and the competitiveness of american industry in the global marketplace and the need of companies to manufacture and export high technology products the itars seem to slightly impeed this the president has directed early and frequent consultations with affected industries the congress and groups that advocate the privacy rights of individuals as policy options are developed the administration is committed to working with the private sector to spur the development of national information infrastructure which will use new telecommunications and computer technologies to give americans unprecedented access to information this infrastructure of high speed networks information superhighways will transmit video images hdtv programming and huge data files as easily as today telephone system transmits voice note that all this wonderfull stuff will be in secret only the proper people will be able to express an opinion hence only the desired result will emerge since encryption technology will play an increasingly important role in that infrastructure the federal government must act quickly to develop consistent comprehensive policies regarding its use the administration is committed to policies that protect all americans right to privacy while also protecting them from those who break the law encryption and codes have been around for millenia they are generaly in equilibrium with the technology of the time the systematic study of cyphers has resulted in swing in favor of the encrypter at the moment have no doubt that the factoring problem will fall in time probably fofr practical purposes by the middle of the next century further information is provided in an accompanying fact sheet the provisions of the president directive to acquire the new encryption technology are also available for additional details call mat heyman national institute of standards and technology questions and answers about the clinton administration telecommunications initiative does this approach expand the authority of government agencies to listen in on phone conversations no clipper chip technology provides law enforcement with no new authorities to access the content of the private conversations of americans suppose law enforcement agency is conducting wiretap on drug smuggling ring and intercepts conversation encrypted using the device what would they have to do to decipher the message they would have to obtain legal authorization normally court order to do the wiretap in the first place they would then present documentation of this authorization to the two entities responsible for safeguarding the keys and obtain the keys for the device being used by the drug smugglers the key is split into two parts which are stored separately in order to ensure the security of the key escrow system who will run the key escrow data banks the two key escrow data banks will be run by two independent entities at this point the department of justice and the administration have yet to determine which agencies will oversee the key escrow data banks it is little hard to critisise non proposal how strong is the security in the device how can be sure how strong the security is this system is more secure than many other voice encryption systems readily available today note we drop back to phone mode again if this is true answer it can be rephrased as it sucks big time anyone who can drive the crypt work bench will use it for light amusement before breakfast while the algorithm will remain classified to protect the security of the key escrow system this link between the security of the key eschrow and the actual algorithm is real winner given that have secret bit numbers could someone please explain how the details of an encryption algorithm will reveal them we are willing to invite an independent panel of cryptography experts to evaluate the algorithm to assure all potential users that there are no unrecognized vulnerabilities just make sure you read the cvs real carfully ok whose decision was it to propose this product the national security council the justice department the commerce department and other key agencies were involved in this decision this approach has been endorsed by the president the vice president and appropriate cabinet officials quick with out looking back what name is missing from that list who was consulted the congress industry we have on going discussions with congress and industry on encryption issues and expect those discussions to intensify as we carry out our review of encryption policy we have briefed members of congress and industry leaders on the decisions related to this initiative the people who agree with us and who think there is buck in it for them will the government provide the hardware to manufacturers the government designed and developed the key access encryption microcircuits but it is not providing the microcircuits to product manufacturers product manufacturers can acquire the microcircuits from the chip manufacturer that produces them the reverse engineering provisions of the mask work act could be relevent here who provides the clipper chip mykotronx programs it at their facility in torrance california and will sell the chip to encryption device manufacturers the programming function could be licensed to other vendors in the future how do buy one of these encryption devices we expect several manufacturers to consider incorporating the clipper chip into their devices you don not unless you are one of the right people if the administration were unable to find technological solution like the one proposed would the administration be willing to use legal remedies to restrict access to more powerful encryption devices this is fundamental policy question which will be considered during the broad policy review the key escrow they missed the word secret here he needs grammar lesson too mechanism will provide americans with an encryption product that is more secure more convenient and less expensive than others readily available today but it is just one piece of what must be the comprehensive approach to encryption technology which the administration is developing would say less secure less conveniant more expensive pgp is free less available and more prone to being comprimised proofs to the contarary will be welcome note proof the administration is not saying since encryption threatens the public safety and effective law enforcement we will prohibit it outright as some countries have effectively done nor is the saying that every american as matter of right is entitled to an unbreakable commercial encryption product they don seem to be saying anything that makes much sense and this proposal does prohibit it except in very limited way and this is the one explicit reference to personal rights it is denial and yes don think that the mexicans brazilians and canucks are included in clinton et als magnanamous gesture there is false tension created in the assessment that this issue is an either or proposition rather both concerns can be and in fact are harmoniously balanced through reasoned balanced approach such as is proposed with the clipper chip and similar encryption techniques the false tension is false the balance is between two repugnant points the right to privacy is hand waved to non existance by putting it behind the false assessment it is assumed that the removal of the right to take what ever steps you deem suitable to protect your privacy is non negotiable hence is defined in the govenment language to be non existant if you don agree you must be criminal as only criminals don agree with out laws also note the non question if what is here was not possible what does this decision indicate about how the clinton administration policy toward encryption will differ from that of the bush administration it indicates that we understand the importance of encryption technology in telecommunications and computing and are committed to working with industry and public interest groups to find innovative ways to protect americans privacy help businesses to compete and ensure that law enforcement agencies have the tools they need to fight crime and terrorism it indicates we know that bush dropped the ball in squashing that nasty insert suitable retoric and will stamp out this disorderly unruley outbreak of freedom and ultra national sentiment will the devices be exportable will other devices that use the government hardware voice encryption devices are subject to export control requirements case by case review for each export is required to ensure appropriate use of these devices the same is true for other encryption devices one of the attractions of this technology is the protection it can give to companies operating at home and abroad with this in mind we expect export licenses will be granted on case by case basis for companies seeking to use these devices to secure their own communications abroad we plan to review the possibility of permitting wider exportability of these products this one is real giggle in australia or france they will have to reveal the keys and the algorithm don think it at the top of my list of things must have so the restrictions will protect me from saleks trying to sell me bill of crock any for any others using it they must be nuts good luck folks paul xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com ncr sd blkhole titipu ed from ed titipu resun com edward reid newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee subject re clipper chip please restrict your followups date mon apr edt organization accuracy ltd message id vg80i0 titipu resun com reply to ed titipu resun com edward reid distribution na mailer uaccess macintosh release v0 lines too many newsgroups nough said thanx edward reid greensboro fl ed titipu resun com or nosc blkhole ed looking for programming contracts especially unisys series newsgroups sci crypt alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet well rab from rab well sf ca us bob bickford subject re more technical details message id c5qxnx bmm well sf ca us sender news well sf ca us nntp posting host well sf ca us organization whole earth lectronic link references apr19 ulysses att com date mon apr gmt lines the system or family key would appear to be cryptographically useless since every chip must know it and be able to remove its effects from the bitstream daresay that it will be widely known almost immediately after this system is deployed and since it been pointed out that there is not separate decrypt key the same key is used for both encryption and decryption there goes any benefit to the use of system wide key in skipjack robert bickford hacker is any person who derives joy from rab well sf ca us discovering ways to circumvent limitations rab recognize that class of criminals and juvenile delinquents has taken to calling themselves hackers but consider them irrelevant to the true meaning of the word just as the mafia calls themselves businessmen but nobody pays that fact any attention rab newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu linac att att out cbnewsh cbnewsh cb att com wcs from wcs anchor ho att com bill stewart subject re once tapped your code is no good any more organization sorcerer apprentice cleaning services date mon apr gmt message id wcs apr19135349 rainier att com in reply to amanda intercon com message of mon apr references bu edu qufsg edt news intercon com sender news cbnewsh cb att com netnews administrator nntp posting host rainier ho att com lines for example don own cordless phone with clipper would if the local men in blue really want to listen to me talk to my friends or order pizza no worse off than am now and don have to worry about local kids or nosy neighbors do tend to agree sigh so where can buy des encrypted cellular phone how much does it cost of course if we didn have government monopolies on cellular phone service there probably would be some available how can you reconcile the administrations self proclaimed purpose of providing law enforcement with access to encrypted data without making the clipper system the only crypto available in the the second and fourth amendments do come to mind the second amendment is especially apt given the itar definitions of crypto equipment as munitions and the gun control people increasing ability to define things as assault weapons and make them illegal triple des is obviously used for assault phones while cripple will be legal and triple cripple may fall into the gray area of illegally upgrading to an assault phone pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com at bell labs m312 holmdel nj no from new jersey only work in cyberspace white house commect line fax newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net gatech purdue yuma holland from holland cs colostate edu douglas craig holland subject re text of white house announcement and as on clipper chip encryption sender news yuma acns colostate edu news account message id apr19 yuma acns colostate edu date mon apr gmt distribution na references c5l17v gh5 dove nist gov bontchev fbihh apr19 afterlife ncsc mil nntp posting host beethoven cs colostate edu organization colorado state university computer science department lines in article apr19 afterlife ncsc mil rlward1 afterlife ncsc mil robert ward writes in article bontchev fbihh bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de writes and since the us constitutions guarantees the right to every american to bear arms why is not every american entitled as matter of have you read the applicable part of the constitution and interpreted it in context if not please do so before posting this misinterpretation again it refers to the right of the people to organize militia not for individuals to carry handguns grenades and assault rifles read the constitution yourself the second amendment says the right to bear arms shall not be infringed so well regulated militia may be more easily formed have an interpretation of the second that shows there are no qualifications to the right to keep and bear arms if you want can mail it to you by the way gun talk belongs in talk politics guns doug holland path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu swrinde network ucsd edu news service uci edu beckman com dsg4 dse beckman com rubin newsgroups sci crypt subject re once tapped your code is no good any more message id rubin dsg4 dse beckman com from rubin dsg4 dse beckman com arthur rubin date apr gmt references tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com qpg8finn982 dns1 nmsu edu bu edu strnlghtc5nrhw qb netcom com distribution na organization beckman instruments inc nntp posting host dsg4 dse beckman com lines in strnlghtc5nrhw qb netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes in article bu edu uni acs bu edu shaen bernhardt writes wish could agree with you ask yourself this why would any private sector entity wish to buy crypto system that was known to be at least partially compromised key escrows in this instance why would any private sector entity wish to buy crypto system that had not been properly evaluated algorythm not publically released the answer seems obvious to me they wouldn there is other hardware out there not compromised des as an example triple des as better one what follows is my opinion it is not asserted to be the truth so no flames please it comes out of background of years as senior corporate staff executive in two fortune companies no wonder american businesses are going down the tubes be happy to use crypto system supplied by the nsa for business if they told me it was more secure than des and in particular resistant to attempts by japanese french and other competitive companies and governments to break it nist not nsa nsa is not supposed to have anything to do with this they didn say that they said is was better than some commercial grade encryptions for one wouldn trust them if they did unless they release the algorithm for investigation be happy to do so even with escrowed keys provided was happy about the bona fides of the escrow agencies the federal reserve would certainly satisfy me as would something set up by one of the big accounting firms maybe the aclu and eff it would have to be non profit so the big would be out trust the nsa or the president if they stated there were no trap doors be even happier if committee of independent experts examined the thing under seal of secrecy and reported back that it was secure wouldn trust the nsa think would trust the president on this but not certain he would be told trust something from the nsa long before trust something from some swiss or anybody japanese that your problem this may seem surprising to some here but suggest most corporations would feel the same way most many some pick one corporations have an attitude that the nsa is part of our government and we support our government as one very famous ceo put it to me one day want to emphasize the am not speaking for beckman instruments at this point however we are an international company and would like to think that our customers come first ahead of our government whims arthur rubin rubin dsg4 dse beckman com work beckman instruments brea mcimail com compuserve com arthur pnet01 cts com personal my opinions are my own and do not represent those of my employer xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu usc ucla cs geoff from geoff ficus cs ucla edu geoffrey kuenning subject re once tapped your code is no good any more message id apr19 cs ucla edu sender usenet cs ucla edu mr usenet nntp posting host ogmore cs ucla edu organization ucla computer science department references apr17 clarinet com tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com apr17 clarinet com rwing uucp distribution na date mon apr gmt lines in article rwing uucp pat rwing uucp pat myrto writes fishing expeditions without the target knowlege don give up the right to be safe from that that should be non negotiable and clinton and co know it which is probably why they quietly developed this thing figuring if they get it this far they can ram it on through it always amazes me how quick people are to blame whatever administration is current for things they couldn possibly have initiated this chip had to take years to develop yet already we re claiming that the clinton administration sneaked it in on us bullshit the bush administration and the career gestapo were responsible for this horror and the careerists presented it to the new presidency as fait accompli that doesn excuse clinton and gore from criticism for being so stupid as to go for it but let lay the body at the proper door to start with geoff kuenning geoff maui cs ucla edu geoff itcorp com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com emory ogicse psgrain m2xenix agora jhart from jhart agora rain com jim hart newsgroups sci crypt subject screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only summary we need privacy chips for phones not computer bound station message id c5qy3m de3 agora rain com date apr gmt article agora c5qy3m de3 organization open communications forum lines since the wiretap chip is being distributed internationally allowing the government to spy on foreign governments companies and people as as well as to wiretap domestic citizens this is world wide issue please put distribution world on the distrubution line thank you ygoland wright seas ucla edu the jester writes however assuming that can still encrypt things as please who cares about the clipper chip you don care that people are being lied to fooled into believing the chip gives privacy when it fact it allows wiretaps you don give shit about anybody privacy except your own and not even your own are you so smart that you know when you re talking to somebody who has wiretap chip on their phone instead of privacy chip with private keys attitude that everyone else should have instead of worrying about clipper chip simply connect your handset to your computer and feed the voice single through process encrypt and transmit over the phone the guy on the other hand then does the same in reverse simply everyone should have this attitude the only people who can have this attitude are the most hard core computer hackers who never make phone calls away from their computer who apparently never call anybody except another computer hacker or perhaps another spook classified agents refuse to use their own system only oblivious civilian dupes get that dubious privilege only spooks and hard core hackers need privacy huh we do need an alternative to nsa bugged telephones but we re talking inexpensive telephones here including hand sized cellulars that need strong crypto real privacy make shift computer hacker rigs that require living by your computer to talk privately over the phone are just dumb stunt that doesn do anything for anybody privacy in the real world what we need is true privacy chip for example real time voice encryption rsa put it into silicon compiler and spit out asic put this chip on the market as de facto standard for international business diplomats and private communications if the bans it we make it somewhere else and import it the japanese german dutch taiwanese korean etc electronics companies don want the nsa spying on them workers lose more jobs to government fascist stupidity jhart agora rain com xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net europa eng gtefsd com emory swrinde network ucsd edu qualcom qualcomm com qualcom rdippold from rdippold qualcomm com ron asbestos dippold subject re once tapped your code is no good any more message id rdippold qualcom originator rdippold qualcom qualcomm com sender news qualcomm com nntp posting host qualcom qualcomm com organization qualcomm inc san diego ca references apr17 clarinet com tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com apr17 clarinet com rwing uucp apr19 cs ucla edu distribution na date mon apr gmt lines geoff ficus cs ucla edu geoffrey kuenning writes bullshit the bush administration and the career gestapo were responsible for this horror and the careerists presented it to the new presidency as fait accompli that doesn excuse clinton and gore from criticism for being so stupid as to go for it but let lay the body at the proper door to start with the final stages of denial can hardly imagine what the result would have been if the clinton administration had actually supported this plan instead of merely acquiescing with repugnance as they ve so obviously doing don believe the chip originated with the clinton administration either but the clinton administration has embraced it and brought it to fruition both of the major parties have what they consider excellent reasons for limiting your freedoms and violating your privacy and even seem to feel that they re doing you favor if this is really surprising to anyone it means they ve been willfully ignoring quite bit of previous evidence there only one political party not calling anarchists party that considers your freedom and privacy goals worthy in and of themselves if you re voting for the big two you re supporting reduction of those rights given their goals and their histories regardless of whether you personally support that reduction to paint clinton and gore as unwitting tools is really stretching things when you have to kill man it costs nothing to be polite churchill xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu sol ctr columbia edu news unomaha edu cwis trussell from trussell cwis unomaha edu tim russell subject re once tapped your code is no good any more message id trussell cwis sender news news unomaha edu uno network news server organization university of nebraska at omaha references apr17 clarinet com tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com apr17 clarinet com rwing uucp apr19 cs ucla edu distribution na date mon apr gmt lines geoff ficus cs ucla edu geoffrey kuenning writes it always amazes me how quick people are to blame whatever administration is current for things they couldn possibly have initiated this chip had to take years to develop yet already we re claiming that the clinton administration sneaked it in on us no kidding the most recent post saw in alt privacy clipper and hope anyone interested in this topic ends up there states that clipper has been in development for over four years am however more than little po that clinton put his name on this monstrosity or even allowed it to get out the door for that matter he already heard from me and hope you ll all take the time to voice your extreme displeasure as well tim russell omaha ne trussell unomaha edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu pitt edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu geraldo cc utexas edu ccwf cc utexas edu mccoy from mccoy ccwf cc utexas edu jim mccoy newsgroups sci crypt subject re fifth amendment and passwords message id qv83m i2 geraldo cc utexas edu date apr gmt references apr15 magnus acs ohio state edu c5jzsz jzo cs uiuc edu apr18 colnet cmhnet org apr19 qualcomm com reply to mccoy ccwf cc utexas edu jim mccoy organization the university of texas austin lines nntp posting host tramp cc utexas edu originator mccoy tramp cc utexas edu in article apr19 qualcomm com karn unix ka9q ampr org phil karn writes in article apr18 colnet cmhnet org res colnet cmhnet org rob stampfli writes sadly it does not suspects can be compelled to give handwriting and voice exemplars and to take blood and dna tests am sure that mike is correct on this point am also pretty sure that administering truth serum would be ruled violation of your right not to incriminate yourself but what is the salient difference you can find the salient difference in any number of th amendment related supreme court opinions the court limits th amendment protections to what they call testimonial evidence as opposed to physical evidence have question that is slight variation on the previously mentioned examples that perhaps people could give me some pointers on it has been couple of years since my con law class in college so hope am not missing something obvious here basic scenario set up bbs that uses public key encryption and encryption of files on disk the general setup is designed so that when users connect they send private key encrypted using the system public key and the user public private keypair is used to wrap the one time session keys used for encrypting the files on disk the result of this is that even if reveal the system private key it is impossible for anyone to gain access to the files stored on the machine what is possible is for someone to use the revealed system private key to entice users into revealing thier personal private keys during the authentication sequence questions does the fact that the system private key does not provide any information useful for search give me any protection as far as being coerced to reveal the key doubt it myself it seems providing the system private key does not mean that am assisting in entrapment the users would send thier key anyway and are not being enticed into doing something they would not otherwise do but is there any other hook that can be used would the user private key enticement require wiretap approval any answers or general musings on the subject would be appreciated jim jim mccoy ut unix sysadmin tiger team mccoy ccwf cc utexas edu include disclaimer mccoy nwu edu pgp key available via finger or upon request path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech mailer cc fsu edu sun13 langley from langley dirac scri fsu edu randolph langley newsgroups sci crypt subject re text of white house announcement and as on clipper chip encryption message id langley apr19172901 dirac scri fsu edu date apr gmt references c5l17v gh5 dove nist gov sender news sun13 scri fsu edu distribution na organization fsu supercomputer computations research institute lines in reply to clipper csrc ncsl nist gov message of apr gmt gee guess they should also have such repository for house keys car keys safety deposit keys rdl xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu linac att bu edu acs bu edu uni from uni acs bu edu shaen bernhardt newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc subject re what the clipper nay sayers sound like to me message id bu edu date apr gmt references qsvfcinnq9v dns1 nmsu edu sender news bu edu followup to sci crypt distribution na organization boston university boston ma usa lines in article qsvfcinnq9v dns1 nmsu edu amolitor moink nmsu edu andrew molitor writes the following is available in some ftp archive somewhere insert my comments liberally throughout this demonic memo of big brotherdom white house announcement on screw thread standards this is to announce that the american national standards institute or whatever it is has been given the authority to define standard dimensions for screw threads look this is clearly the first step toward outlawing our own screw thread specifications if this madness isn fought tooth and nail every step of the way it ll be crime to use screw threads other than those our fearless leaders so graciously define for us sarcastic text deleted no value judgement implied screw you bill clinton you and your totalitarianist thugs amolitor nmsu edu finger for pgst personal screw thread pitch or screw threads see the screw thread servers must be freed at first was going to complain that your analogy was completely irrelevant but then remembered something remember that move to get the to the metric system all those years ago as far as know we were supposed to be there by now the government sold it as better for the people easier to be in tune with the rest of the world they had decided it was for our own good then when the plan was released it soon became apparant that the government were bunch thickies think about it change all the railroad track widths signs screws abolish the old regime at the cost of millions of dollars your point is well taken you think there is nothing to worry about you could care less who designs your cryptography any more than who designs your screws or the system of measurement you use sit back that right just relax we ll take care of all your needs mr molitor uni acs bu edu public keys by finger and or request public key archives pgp public keys pgp iastate edu sovereignty is the sign of brutal past fight clinton wiretap chip df610670f2467b99 de2b5c3749148c crypto is not crime ask me how newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net agate dog ee lbl gov network ucsd edu pacbell com well well sf ca us artmel from artmel well sf ca us arthur melnick subject some questions regarding big brother clipper message id artmel well sf ca us summary some thoughts and questions regarding clipper keywords clipper sender news well sf ca us nntp posting host well sf ca us organization the whole earth lectronic link sausalito ca date mon apr gmt lines in previous postings by hellman bellovin etal it was reported the big brother clipper chip will encrypt plaintext in bit blocks as is done with des the users key which can be derived from rsa diffy hellman etc is used to encrypt plaintext and is then used to form three part message this three part message consists of encrypted with some other key and the chip serial number this three part message is then encrypted by still another key my question is what is message for example say we are dealing with an encrypted digitized voice application the speech waveform is sampled and digitized and then some number of samples are grouped into bit block this block is then encrypted and transmitted over non secure communications link where is the three part message is something appended to each bit block is header sent at the beginning of the session if the header is sent at the beginning of the session how do they insure the equipment manufacturer using the chip does just that can just anyone manufacture products using the chip is facility clearance required to manufacture any ideas path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse flop engr orst edu gaia ucs orst edu connected com beauty rwing pat from pat rwing uucp pat myrto newsgroups sci crypt subject re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow keywords encryption wiretap clipper key escrow mykotronx message id rwing uucp date apr gmt article rwing references strnlghtc5lgfi jqa netcom com apr18 yuma acns colostate edu strnlghtc5pucl kp netcom com organization totally unorganized lines in article strnlghtc5pucl kp netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes in article apr18 yuma acns colostate edu holland cs colostate edu douglas craig holland writes let me ask you this would you trust richard nixon with your crypto keys wouldn take it you mean president nixon not private citizen nixon sure nothing doing would be of the slightest interest to president nixon am sure you didn miss the implication that we could have another richard nixon type president in the future perhaps not too distant future acutally with that in mind then take it you also would not object to the gov coming up with decision not proposal just like clinton cripple is decision not proposal sprung on us to start placing video cameras with sound in every room of your house which could be activated without your knowlege they would be well concealed so you wouldn know the location to prevent you from covering the lens opening after all nothing you re doing would be of the slightest interest to government official right so you surely should not object to such proposal not the best anology but the principle is pretty close the ability to eavesdrop on your activity with little or no effort without your knowlege protected by entirely by government safeguards you can still draw your curtains so you can still have your privacy from everyone else except big brother after all we need this for protection from drug dealers and terrorists and other criminals like enemies of the state and you don really have right to unbreakable privacy anyway sort of as the press release of the clinton cripple decision puts it find it curious they use the word unbreakable when the term really should be difficult to break without proper authorization which the government most certainly has at their disposal right they wouldn want to be able to break it illegally would they nawww not for the people clinton can you while my mind is on it give us one good reason that the algorithm should be secret algorithm unless this encryption scheme either is joke or contains features like master key or other back door for unauthorized eavesdropping if it was really even moderately secure and the government really meant to require the proper court order and the keys that are in the escrow accounts to be able to decipher the traffic what is the need to keep the algorithm secret seems hear rather often that if an encryption scheme requires the algorithm to remain secret to be effective it is not worthwhile scheme is this just idle talk or is the administration bullshitting everyone with great skepticism and many doubts on our administrations intentions and wait we haven been told the next gem the administration has in mind for mail and datafile security the press release does say that this is part of comprehensive thing on data security for us unprivileged citizens perhaps subjects would be the better term citizens somehow does not seem appropriate that implies free people subjects better fits population who serve at the pleasure of their rulers one thing for certain the government no longer regards the citizens as their bosses anymore but the other way around pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle wa if all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and am not sure about the former albert einstien newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net europa eng gtefsd com news ans net newsgate watson ibm com yktnews watson ibm com uri from uri watson ibm com uri blumenthal subject re key registering bodies sender news watson ibm com nntp news poster message id c5r745 t0x watson ibm com date mon apr gmt distribution usa reply to uri watson ibm com disclaimer this posting represents the poster views not necessarily those of ibm references dockmaster ncsc mil nntp posting host kingbee watson ibm com organization ibm watson research center lines in article dockmaster ncsc mil grant dockmaster ncsc mil lynn grant writes if we do not trust the nsa to be registrar of clipper chip key halves would not trust mitre either wouldn trust mitre for another reason remember the cuckoo egg how great was their security eh nsa well with the list of known turncoats does it make you wonder how many more unknown still are there regards uri uri watson ibm com scifi angmar uri disclaimer newsgroups sci crypt from pla sktb demon co uk paul allen path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net agate doc ic ac uk uknet pipex demon sktb demon co uk pla subject re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow references jhessec5lumc ex netcom com qnupd jpm news intercon com pmetzger apr18141006 snark shearson com reply to pla sktb demon co uk organization chaos lines newsreader archimedes readnews date mon apr message id aohonj024n sktb demon co uk sender usenet demon co uk begin pgp signed message in article pmetzger apr18141006 snark shearson com pmetzger snark shearson com perry metzger writes in article qnupd jpm news intercon com amanda intercon com amanda walker writes from amanda intercon com amanda walker jhesse netcom com john hesse writes oh great wonderful news nobody can listen in except the feds hey it better than the status quo am far less worried about the feds tapping my phone than high school scanner surfers who get their kicks out of eavesdropping on cellular and cordless phone calls political dissident scared shitless of the feds listening in on my calls my opinions are the sort that would get me disappeared in slightly less free society and who knows what sort of society we will be in in five or ten years have friends who have had their phones tapped none of this is theoretical to me as for its better than the status quo well first of all you can get cryptophone from companies like cylink today and they work well in addition number of groups are now working on building software to turn any pc into privacy enhanced phone right now and they are all working in overdrive mode and yes rather just see all crypto restrictions lifted but this is at least an incrememental improvement for certain applications there are no crypto restrictions yet you can use anything you want right now the point is to maintain that right the point you all seem to have missed was covered when the uk cellphone scrambling system was discussed incidentally my mp has responded to my questions on that issue and it appears that the uk and other approved countries will get the secure a5 encryption and dodgy countries will get a5x existing mobile equipment will drop to clear mode when used with a5x systems but newer equipment will use a5 a5x clear depending on the capabilities of the base station the cops feds do not need to be able to get hold of your private key to listen in to cellular conversations encryption is not end to end but cellphone to base station it has to be this way so that cellular users and fixed installations can talk to each other for cellular to cellular calls the transmission is decrypted at the base station passed to another base station and re encrypted the cops feds can listen to the unscrambled call provided they get warrant to tap into the cellular provider equipment the only reason for wanting crackable system is so they can listen without having to obtain warrant but maybe the clipper system is secure and they really do need warrant to get the key out of escrow before they can listen in using scanner see above they don have to go down this route anyway have my doubts but even if true once they have the key they will never again need warrant to tap into that particular phone whenever they want well judge it appears he wasn drug dealer after all so naturally we ll stop listening in you have every reason to be scared shitless take look at the records of mccarthy hoover edgar not the cleaner though they both excelled at sucking and nixon paul begin pgp signature version iqcvagubk9ial2v14asak9pnaqevxgqaoxrviaggvpvrdlwzchbnqo6yhunuj8my cvpx2zvkhhjzkfs5luw6z63rrwejvhxegv79ex4xzssswvuzblvyqukgs08sz2eq blsuij9afxalv5gj4jb hu40qvu6i7gkkrvgtlxeypkvxfd tfc4n9hovumvnruc ve5zy8988py nocg end pgp signature path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu uunet vnet ibm com from ameline vnet ibm com ian ameline message id almaden ibm com date mon apr edt subject screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only newsgroups sci crypt references c5qy3m de3 agora rain com organization set development ibm canada lab disclaimer this posting represents the poster views not those of ibm lines suspect that this clipper thing could backfire on the gov in big hurry expect that products using these chips will socket them rather than soldering them since once the keys are handed over by the escrow agencies the chip is so much garbage and will need to be replaced expect that someone will come along with pin compatible chip that uses secure encryption possibly even disguised so that it not possible to tell it from the clipper chip until you try to use the backdoor keys if were to manufacture such chip as part of my marketing strategy would try to subvert one or both escrow agencies either through bribes or industrial espionage and then publicize the fact doing my best not to be connected with such activities which would likely not be legal publicly discrediting the escrow agencies would go quite far towards creating market for secure alternative also believe that someone will reverse engineer the clipper chip and knowlege of the algorithm will likely be fairly widespread any back doors or weaknesses would further discredit the scheme and help grow the market demand for secure alternative believe that the company that provides such an alternative will make few friends in the le community but lots of money also believe that the government will do it best to make such plug replacements illegal expect that they will see the same success in limiting the availability of such alternatives as they have seen in limiting the availability of certain illicit drugs ie little to none regards ian ameline of course the ramblings above have nothing to do with my employer nor do necessarily advocate doing any of the things described here just believe that the events above are likely to take place newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel news udel edu darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu sol ctr columbia edu ira uka de scsing switch ch bernina caronni from caronni nessie cs id ethz ch germano caronni subject re fifth amendment and passwords message id apr20 bernina ethz ch sender news bernina ethz ch usenet news system organization swiss federal institute of technology eth zurich ch references apr18 colnet cmhnet org apr19 qualcomm com qv83m i2 geraldo cc utexas edu date tue apr gmt lines in article qv83m i2 geraldo cc utexas edu mccoy ccwf cc utexas edu jim mccoy writes set up bbs that uses public key encryption and encryption of files on disk the general setup is designed so that when users connect they send private key encrypted using the system public key and the user public private keypair is used to wrap the one time session keys used for encrypting the files on disk the result of this is that even if reveal the system private key it is impossible for anyone to gain access to the files stored on the machine what is possible is for someone to use the revealed system private key to entice users into revealing thier personal private keys during the authentication sequence any answers or general musings on the subject would be appreciated just question as provider of public bbs service aren you bound by law to gurantee intelligble access to the data of the users on the bbs if police comes with sufficent authorisation guessed this would be basic condition for such systems did run bbs some time ago but that was in switzerland friendly greetings germano caronni instruments register only through things they re designed to register space still contains infinite unknowns pgp key id germano caronni caronni nessie cs id ethz ch fd560ccf586f3da747ea3c94dd01720f newsgroups sci crypt alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net spool mu edu uunet well rab from rab well sf ca us bob bickford subject re more technical details message id c5r99i l42 well sf ca us sender news well sf ca us nntp posting host well sf ca us organization whole earth lectronic link references apr19 ulysses att com c5qxnx bmm well sf ca us date mon apr gmt lines another objection occurred to me there was comment about how supposedly there would only be one decode box operated by the fbi this is flat ridiculous and don believe it for millisecond even if they in fact only build one or two or some other small number of these that won stop others from building one make it work like two clipper chip phones one listening to each side of the recorded conversation ll have to have another look at the specs posted so far but offhand didn see anything that would preclude this sort of thing robert bickford rab well sf ca us treasurer and newsletter editor lib party of marin county ca don blame me voted libertarian member ca state central committee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu news acns nwu edu uicvm uic edu u23590 organization university of illinois at chicago academic computer center date mon apr cdt from u23590 uicvm uic edu message id u23590 uicvm uic edu newsgroups sci crypt subject cripple chip lines how about this the telco has your clipper key the telco has your intended partner key if he is using one whenever you call the message gets decrypted and reencrypted wihtout key exchange know it stupid system but for the feds it be great the point of this isn to take over the crypto market btw clinton doen not want people to have any sort of crypto at all just like busch but he needs some support for the technology initiative garbage he pushing industrial policy stuff and computer hip designed by the gov is just the thing who going to thing about the literal billions of dollars it took for government agency to design watkins earth eecs uic edu xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net gatech emory sol ctr columbia edu eff world ksr jfw from jfw ksr com john woods newsgroups sci crypt comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee subject re once tapped your code is no good any more message id ksr com date apr edt references apr17 clarinet com tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com johnson trwacs followup to alt flame distribution na organization kendall square research corp lines johnson trwacs fp trw com steve johnson writes tim may whose sig block may get him busted in the new regime remark heard the other day is beginning to take on increasingly frightening significance the comment was made that in other parts of the world the democrats note the big would be known as socialists and in other parts of the world european socialists would be known as fascist capitalist pigs get your head out of your labels and think carefully for once according to the eff announcement on this thing the nsa has been developing this turkey for four years the manufacturing contract was let months ago anyone out there who believes that the fact that clinton name was on this white house announcement means that bush or any other republican is staunch supporter of personal privacy is fool if this topic disturbs you can the political finger pointing and talk about what you can do about it if you ve just got to point fingers remember that this scheme was started when secret policeman was president newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu jebright from jebright magnus acs ohio state edu james ebright subject re wh proposal from police point of view message id apr20 magnus acs ohio state edu sender news magnus acs ohio state edu nntp posting host bottom magnus acs ohio state edu organization the ohio state university references apr18 news clarkson edu strnlghtc5puor netcom com pmetzger apr19122105 snark shearson com date tue apr gmt lines in article pmetzger apr19122105 snark shearson com pmetzger lehman com writes in article strnlghtc5puor netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes there has been extensive discussion in the eff forum for example about inadmissible taps being used to develop information that could then lead to admissible evidence this might put stop to such things which must from time to time be simple fishing expeditions far more likely these things will continue to be done no matter what assurances we are given key escrow is likely going to prove to be joke feel like winston churchill in but the privacy clipper will to the extent key escrow is legitimate stop most of the abuse of wiretaps by local cops company cops angry husbands wives etc it is going to be hard for the keystone cops the proctor gamble cops etc to bypass even product as flawed as the clipjob now admit am hard pressed to find anything else good to say about it except that if it actually takes off someone will certainly come up with real crypto chip pin compatable that we can buy unless of course big brother makes it illegal to have real crypto cause good honest law abiding citizens will be happy to let the government listen to their every word me did say that am not crook president richard nixon information farming at for addr phone finger the ohio state university jebright magnus acs ohio state edu jim ebright mail jre osu edu newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu csn qwerty gw fsl noaa gov kestrel fsl noaa gov bear from bear kestrel fsl noaa gov bear giles subject re fifth amendment and passwords message id apr20 fsl noaa gov sender news fsl noaa gov usenet news system organization forecast systems labs noaa boulder co usa references apr19 qualcomm com qv83m i2 geraldo cc utexas edu apr20 bernina ethz ch date tue apr gmt lines in article apr20 bernina ethz ch caronni nessie cs id ethz ch germano caronni writes just question as provider of public bbs service aren you bound by law to gurantee intelligble access to the data of the users on the bbs if police comes with sufficent authorisation guessed this would be basic condition for such systems did run bbs some time ago but that was in switzerland that sounds like an old dragnet episode joe and went to the apartment of prime suspect nobody answered the door but his landlord gave us permission to search the apartment perhaps that worked in california in the but as understand the law landlords do not have authority to grant permission to search space rented by third party provided the lease is not in default etc not even sure if they can provide the master key when shown search warrant since the subject of the search is supposed to be notified at this point the question becomes did the user rent the disk space her encrypted file occupies if she did it should fall under the same body of case law that applies to apartments storage lockers etc as to whether any court would recognize this fact if she did not no compensation exchanged don know how it would be treated there doesn seem to be non cyberspace equivalent bear giles bear fsl noaa gov newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech usenet ins cwru edu magnus acs ohio state edu csn qwerty gw fsl noaa gov kestrel fsl noaa gov bear from bear kestrel fsl noaa gov bear giles subject re why the clipper algorithm is secret message id apr20 fsl noaa gov sender news fsl noaa gov usenet news system organization forecast systems labs noaa boulder co usa references apr17 ulysses att com apr18 iecc cambridge ma us c5pstr lu2 panix com date tue apr gmt lines in article c5pstr lu2 panix com dfl panix com danny bedlam writes the algorithm is classified because military contract or similar government equivalent to military has been let for this proprietary design that the feds say that nsa developed is there patent is that patent publicly available my betting is that that too is classified unless there has been major change in the law there no such beast as classified patent patents exist to encourage communications and develop the state of the art the year lock is nuisance but historically has been pretty trivial it only in an industry which doubles performance every three years or months for some hardware that years is an eternity the same thing applies in civilian development you can patent something and declare it trade secret however you can and should mark all software including proprietary code unpublished copyright so that it ever does get exposed you still have some legal protection post berne this isn required since everything is born copyrighted but it takes while for people to learn the new rules bear giles bear fsl noaa gov newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet mdisea mothost lmpsbbs johng from johng ecs comm mot com john gilbert subject clipper chip bush did it organization motorola land mobile products sector distribution na date mon apr gmt message id apr19 lmpsbbs comm mot com keywords big bubba is watching references bontchev fbihh jhessec5ltt5 imc netcom com wcs apr17024857 rainier att com sender news lmpsbbs comm mot com net news nntp posting host lines in article wcs apr17024857 rainier att com wcs anchor ho att com bill stewart writes this is the democrats version defend free speech reject republicans followed by speech control this must have been in the works for some time the bush administration must have been working on it for quite while clinton simply took the credit or blame depending on how you look at it john gilbert johng ecs comm mot com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu darwin sura net guvax acc georgetown edu denning from denning guvax acc georgetown edu newsgroups sci crypt subject the clipper chip technical summary message id apr19 guvax acc georgetown edu date apr distribution world organization georgetown university lines the following document summarizes the clipper chip how it is used how programming of the chip is coupled to key generation and the escrow process and how law enforcement decrypts communications since there has been some speculation on this news group about my own involvement in this project like to add that was not in any way involved found out about it when the fbi briefed me on thursday evening april since then have spent considerable time talking with the nsa and fbi to learn more about this and attended the nist briefing at the department of commerce on april the document below is the result of that effort dorothy denning the clipper chip technical summary dorothy denning april introduction on april the president announced new initiative that will bring together the federal government and industry in voluntary program to provide secure communications while meeting the legitimate needs of law enforcement at the heart of the plan is new tamper proof encryption chip called the clipper chip together with split key approach to escrowing keys two escrow agencies are used and the key parts from both are needed to reconstruct key chip structure the clipper chip contains classified bit block encryption algorithm called skipjack the algorithm uses bit keys compared with for the des and has rounds of scrambling compared with for the des it supports all des modes of operation throughput is mbits second each chip includes the following components the skipjack encryption algorithm an bit family key that is common to all chips bit serial number an bit secret key that unlocks all messages encrypted with the chip encrypting with the chip to see how the chip is used imagine that it is embedded in the at telephone security device as it will be suppose call someone and we both have such device after pushing button to start secure conversation my security device will negotiate session key with the device at the other end in general any method of key exchange can be used the key and message stream digitized voice are then fed into the clipper chip to produce two values the encrypted message stream and law enforcement block the law enforcement block thus contains the session key encrypted under the unit key concatenated with the serial number all encrypted under the family key chip programming and escrow all clipper chips are programmed inside scif secure computer information facility which is essentially vault the scif contains laptop computer and equipment to program the chips about chips are programmed during single session the scif is located at mikotronx at the beginning of session trusted agent from each of the two key escrow agencies enters the vault agent enters an bit value s1 into the laptop and agent enters an bit value s2 these values serve as seeds to generate keys for sequence of serial numbers to generate the unit key for serial number the bit value is first padded with fixed bit block to produce bit block n1 s1 and s2 are then used as keys to triple encrypt n1 producing bit block r1 r1 n1 s1 s2 s1 similarly is padded with two other bit blocks to produce n2 and n3 and two additional bit blocks r2 and r3 are computed r2 n2 s1 s2 s1 r3 n3 s1 s2 s1 r1 r2 and r3 are then concatenated together giving bits the first bits are assigned to u1 and the second bits to u2 the rest are discarded the unit key is the xor of u1 and u2 u1 and u2 are the key parts that are separately escrowed with the two escrow agencies as sequence of values for u1 u2 and are generated they are written onto three separate floppy disks the first disk contains file for each serial number that contains the corresponding key part u1 the second disk is similar but contains the u2 values the third disk contains the unit keys agent takes the first disk and agent takes the second disk the third disk is used to program the chips after the chips are programmed all information is discarded from the vault and the agents leave the laptop may be destroyed for additional assurance that no information is left behind the protocol may be changed slightly so that four people are in the room instead of two the first two would provide the seeds s1 and s2 and the second two the escrow agents would take the disks back to the escrow agencies the escrow agencies have as yet to be determined but they will not be the nsa cia fbi or any other law enforcement agency one or both may be independent from the government law enforcement use when law enforcement has been authorized to tap an encrypted line they will first take the warrant to the service provider in order to get access to the communications line let us assume that the tap is in place and that they have determined that the line is encrypted with clipper they will first decrypt the law enforcement block with the family key this gives them they will then take warrant identifying the chip serial number to each of the key escrow agents and get back u1 and u2 u1 and u2 are xored together to produce the unit key and is decrypted to get the session key finally the message stream is decrypted all this will be accomplished through special black box decoder operated by the fbi acknowledgment and distribution notice all information is based on information provided by nsa nist and the fbi permission to distribute this document is granted path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech ncar noao arizona arizona edu violet ccit arizona edu hagberg from hagberg violet ccit arizona edu hagberg jr newsgroups sci crypt subject clipper and ranting libertarians keywords clipper clinton rant rave libertarians message id apr199318412005 violet ccit arizona edu date apr gmt distribution usa local organization university of arizona lines nntp posting host violet ccit arizona edu news software vax vms vnews would think that you could reduce the defense of using non clipper based encryption technologies to defending freedom of expression ie free speech that you have to right to express whatever you want in whatever form your little heart desires so long as you do not impinge on the rights of others encrypted text sound video is just another form of expression of that particular text sound video just like digitized sound is another means of expression of sound streams of instead of continuous waveforms also it shouldn be up to the government at all encryption standards can be decided upon by independent standards orgainizations apologies for the acronym one can note how well this has worked with iso and the metric system sae etc independent entities or consortia of people industries in that particular area are far more qualified to set standards than any one government agency consider for example what the ascii character set would have looked like if it was decided by the government hope this helps folks to formulate their defenses still working on mine and hope to be faxing my congressmen soon hagberg hagberg ccit arizona edu finger for info and pgp public key xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp org eff talk sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu ucbvax silverton berkeley edu djb from djb silverton berkeley edu bernstein newsgroups comp org eff talk alt privacy clipper sci crypt subject does any organization fight encryption is harmful statements message id apr2003 silverton berkeley edu date apr gmt references c5l1d2 gmw dove nist gov followup to comp org eff talk alt privacy clipper organization ir lines here are two quotes from the white house the administration is not saying since encryption threatens the public safety and effective law enforcement we will prohibit it outright as some countries have effectively done nor is the saying that every american as matter of right is entitled to an unbreakable commercial encryption product in making this decision do not intend to prevent the private sector from developing or the government from approving other microcircuits or algorithms that are equally effective in assuring both privacy and secure key escrow system these quotes bother me in three ways many people will read and remember that encryption threatens the public safety and effective law enforcement the administration is explicitly failing to acknowledge that every american is entitled to use strong encryption to ensure his own privacy the president by implication may intend to outlaw any cryptographic devices which ensure privacy but do not have key escrow system want to see an organization which will combat such statements encryption does not threaten the public safety any more than ski masks do every american is entitled to use strong encryption which ensures his own privacy and is not crippled by key escrow system guess looking for league for cryptographic freedom or national cryptography association to what extent does the eff serve this purpose is new organization necessary does it already exist dan newsgroups sci crypt alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc sol ctr columbia edu eff kadie from kadie eff org carl kadie subject would clipper make good cover for other encryption method message id apr20 eff org originator kadie eff org sender usenet eff org nntp news poster nntp posting host eff org organization the electronic frontier foundation date tue apr gmt lines clipper might be good way to cover the use of another layer of encryption currently when you send an encrypted message an opponent can usually tell that you are using encryption which encryption method you are using because that information is usually in the clear with clipper most opponents will only know that you are sending clipper text they won know that your clipper text is itself encoded only those few opponents who get your clipper keys will know that your message is double encrypted kind of like safety deposit box containing lock box so don just think of replacements for clipper also think of front ends carl carl kadie do not represent eff this is just me kadie eff org kadie cs uiuc edu xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet nwnexus beauty rwing pat from pat rwing uucp pat myrto newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee subject re text of white house announcement and as on clipper chip encryption message id rwing uucp date apr gmt references qmugcinnpu9 gap caltech edu apr17 clarinet com qnpjuinn8ci gap caltech edu distribution na organization totally unorganized lines in article qnpjuinn8ci gap caltech edu hal cco caltech edu hal finney writes brad clarinet com brad templeton writes their strategy is business one rather than legal one they are pushing to get standard in place secret standard and if they get it as standard then they will drive competitors out of the market it will be legal to sell better untapable encryption that doesn have registered keys but it will be difficult and thus not plan for most phone companies if brad analysis is correct it may offer an explanation for why the encryption algorithm is being kept secret this will prevent competitors from coming out with clipper compatible phones which lack the government installed back door the strategy brad describes will only work as long as the only way to get compatible phones is to have ones with the government chips it would be nice from the point of view of personal privacy if brad turns out to be right as long as people still have the power to provide their own encryption in place of or in addition to the clipper privacy is still possible but the wording of several passages in the announcement makes me doubt whether this will turn out to be true even if what brad says turns out to be accurate you can bet that the administration will have made it very clear to the vendors that it would very much be in their best interests to institute voluntary policy of refusing to sell anything but clinton cripple equipped equipment to anyone other than authorized government agencies and law enforcement or individuals and corporations who have been been determined by the administration to have valid need on case by case basis for an effective system note that this is very much like the language used in many gun control bills laws the administration is pushing for or otherwise supporting the logic and actual rationale as opposed to the excuses that get fed to the media is the same in both cases only the items or technology in question are different think this is no accident it comes from the same philosophy that the government rules controls the people not the people controlling the government that the unconnected citizens are not sophisticated enough to know what is best for them so the government must tell the people what they need or do not need we know best and the idea that that commoner can defend himself against government eavesdropping or unlawful attack is totally unacceptable to people with this outlook hal finney combine this all with pushing for national identity cards with smart chips to encode anything they please internal passport under the guise of streamlining the state people health care system and with you can be certain more jewels yet to come and one sees an extremely ominous trend so what if will be ten years late it still is turning out to be an amazingly accurate prophecy unless lot of people wake up and in hurry one should always have every red warning light and bell and danger flag come up when the government seeks to set itself apart in regard to rights etc from the unconnected unprivileged citizen or should we now be saying subject instead why shouldn the average person have good secure system of data security not dependent on nebulous safeguards for maintaining that security why shouldn the average person be able to defend himself from an agency gone rogue am sure the feds could break into any data they really wanted to but it would take some work and using the same logic one should not be allowed to have good safe unless duplicate of the key or combination are submitted for safekeeping by the government don really see difference philosophically encrypted data sure won evaporate not with such high tech tools as tape recorder pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle wa if all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and am not sure about the former albert einstien newsgroups sci crypt alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com news cs indiana edu mvanheyn cs indiana edu from marc vanheyningen mvanheyn cs indiana edu subject re more technical details message id moose cs indiana edu sender mvanheyn cs indiana edu organization computer science dept indiana university references apr19 ulysses att com date mon apr lines encrypted under then will be encrypted under the unit key uk and the serial number of the unit added to produce three part message which will then be encrypted under the system key sk producing uk serial number sk my understanding is that is not encrypted under sk called the family key and that the decrypt key corresponding to sk is held by law enforcement does anyone have first hand knowledge on this will also check it out but this is am sunday so did not want to wait ok so there are in fact two distinct components transmitted by the chip the real message encrypted with the conventional key and the serial number and encrypted conventional key encrypted with the imho kind of bogus as the whole concept of one key that millions of people use which can be changed doesn seem reasonable family key suppose analyze the output of this chip and able to determine which bits are the encrypted packet which contains the serial number and session key suppose also design simple algorithm based on this information which takes the data containing the encrypted session key and twiddles bit or several before it sent down the line mind you sure the nsa thought of this along with dozen other attacks can imagine and the system is probably somehow designed so that manipulation of this information will cause compliant receiving chip to somehow fail to decrypt successfully but how what if the two parties agree in advance on some kind of consistent bit twiddling scheme so the decryption chip sees the restored proper bitstream but an eavesdropper gets uk packet that wrong suppose this could be easily defeated if the chip sends that information out many times in slightly different ways making it effectively impossible to be certain you know all the information being sent marc vanheyningen mvanheyn cs indiana edu mime ripem accepted if your theory predicts different outcomes depending on whether you use discrete mathematics or continuous mathematics then you ve got the wrong theory bruce maclennan newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet shearson com snark pmetzger from pmetzger snark shearson com perry metzger subject re more technical details message id apr20 shearson com sender news shearson com news organization partnership for an america free drug references apr19 ulysses att com apr19 bernina ethz ch pike cs duke edu date tue apr gmt lines srt duke cs duke edu stephen tate writes now not one of the people who distrusts the government at every turn but taking someone word for it that the s1 s2 pairs are not kept around is pushing what willing to believe just little bit too far even if they somehow address this issue it is unlikely to be the only back door in they might even have few intentionally visible to distract from the ones that aren visible perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer le monde va de lui meme newsgroups sci crypt alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet shearson com snark pmetzger from pmetzger snark shearson com perry metzger subject the escrow database message id apr20 shearson com sender news shearson com news organization partnership for an america free drug references apr18 news clarkson edu strnlghtc5puor netcom com bontchev fbihh date tue apr gmt lines here is disturbing thought now we no longer live in the days of big filing cabinets we live in the electronic age asked myself how big could the escrow database get how hard might it be to steal the whole thing particularly were an nsa official operating with the tacit permission of the escrow houses we can pretend that such will not happen but thats naive well lets see ten bytes of each escrow half lets asume ten bytes of serial number in fact believe the serial number is smaller but this is an order of magnitude calculation we assume as the population and that each person has key get five gigabytes for each of the two escrow databases fits conveniently on single very valuable exabyte tape this can only get easier with time but who cares can already hold all the clipper keys in the country in my pocket on two mm tapes admittely they will think of safeguards they won put the whole database on one disk prehaps maybe they will throw stumbling blocks in the way this changes nothing they keys will be needed every day by hundreds if not thousands of law enforcement types so convenience will dictate that the system permit quick electronic retrieval at some point with or without collusion by the agencies those exabyte tapes are going to get cut dorothy denning and david sternlight will doubtless claim this can happen but we know that can is prayer not word that in this instance connotes realism with two exabyte tapes in your pocket you would hold the keys for every person conversations in the country in your hands yeah you need the master key two but thats just ten bytes of information that have to be stored an awful lot of places come to think of it even if the nsa getting copy of the database isn threat to you because unlike me you have no contraversial political views consider foreign intelligence services you know the ones that david sternlight wants to protect us from because of the evil industrial espionage that they do the french apparently do have big spying operation in friendly countries to get industrial secrets so he isn being completely irrational here although why our companies couldn use cryptosystems without back doors is left unexplained by those that point out this threat presumably foreign intelligence services can get moles into the nsa and other agencies we have proof by example of this its happened many times presumably someday they will get their hands on some fraction of the keys you can avoid that sort of thing don pretend that no one unauthorized will ever get their hands on the escrow databases we crypto types are all taught something very important at the beginning of intro to cryptography security must depend on the easily changed key that you pick to run your system and not on secret the escrow databases aren the sorts of secrets that our teachers told us about but they are the sort of big secrets they would lump into this category imagine trying to replace million clipper chips cannot believe that the nsa or whomever it is thats doing this doesn realize all this already they are too smart there are too many of them who have made their bones in the real world suspect that they know precisely what they are doing and that what they are doing is giving us the appearance of safety so that they can continue to surveil in spite of the growth of strong cryptography suspect that they realize that they can put things off forever but they can try to delay things as long as possible who knows maybe even some of the higher ups the inevitable bureaucratic types that rise in any organization really do believe that this scheme might give people some security even as their subordinates in fort meade wring their hands over the foolishness of it all perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer le monde va de lui meme newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet shearson com snark pmetzger from pmetzger snark shearson com perry metzger subject re text of white house announcement and as on clipper chip encryption message id apr20 shearson com followup to talk politics guns sender news shearson com news organization partnership for an america free drug references c5l17v gh5 dove nist gov bontchev fbihh apr19 afterlife ncsc mil distribution na date tue apr gmt lines rlward1 afterlife ncsc mil robert ward writes in article bontchev fbihh bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de writes and since the us constitutions guarantees the right to every american to bear arms why is not every american entitled as matter of have you read the applicable part of the constitution and interpreted it in context if not please do so before posting this misinterpretation again it refers to the right of the people to organize militia not for individuals to carry handguns grenades and assault rifles the supreme court seems to disagree with you they have stated that the people is term of art refering to an individual right and have explicitly mentioned the second amendment as an example quote the people seems to have been term of art employed in select parts of the constitution the preamble declares that the constitution is ordained and established by the people of the the the second amendment protects the right of the people to keep and bear arms supreme court of the uerdugo uriquidez furthermore in the miller decision they only permitted prosecution for possession of sawed off shotgun because the defense had not presented testimony and they therefore accepted the argument of the government that such weapons have no military value they held that the amendment protected the individual right to possess military weapons unfortunately no second amendment case has successfully gotten to the court in fifty years however that does not change the interpretation furthermore it appears that others disagree with you as well vis the conclusion is thus inescapable that the history concept and wording of the second amendment to the constitution of the united states as well as its interpretation by every major commentator and court in the first half century after its ratifi cation indicates that what is protected is an individual right of private citizen to own and carry firearms in peaceful manner report of the subcommittee on the constitution of the committee on the judiciary united states senate th congress second session february you might rightfully ask well then what does that first bit about militias mean well militia in historical context basically means the whole of the adult males of the country indeed the code still defines militia as all armed men over the age of the militia comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense and these men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time supreme court of the united states miller the reason for the phrase being there was to explain the rationale behind the amendment which was this by depending on the people to bear arms in defense of the country no centralization of military power could ever occur which would permit tyranny in short the government would remain perpetually in fear of the people rather than the other way around no free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms the strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is as last resort to protect themselves against tyranny in government thomas jefferson proposal virginia constitution june thomas jefferson papers boyd ed and what country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that this people preserve the spirit of resistance let them take arms the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants thomas jefferson letter to william smith in jefferson on democracy padover ed before standing army can rule the people must be disarmed as they are in almost every kingdom of europe the supreme power in america cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword because the whole body of the people are armed and constitute force superior to any bands of regular troops that can be on any pretense raised in the united states noah webster an examination into the leading principles of the federal constitution in pamphlets on the constitution of the united states ford you may disagree with the second amendment and wish that it be repealed but please do not pretend that it isn there and that it doesn mean what it says you might argue that conditions have changed and that it should no longer be present but you can imagine it away could fill book with detailed argumentation many have already however none of this has anything to do with cryptography lets get it out of here if you insist on discussing this please do it in talk politics guns where people will gladly discuss this matter with you perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer le monde va de lui meme xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security pgp path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu hermes chpc utexas edu cfi org dogface metatron news from metatron joe dogface austin tx us joe zitt newsgroups sci crypt alt security pgp subject re fighting the clipper initiative message id b6 rusnews w165w metatron uucp date mon apr cst references apr19 ncar ucar edu apr19 news weeg uiowa edu qu0mt mlh access digex net organization metatron press human systems performance group austin tx newsreader rusnews v1 lines steve access digex com steve brinich writes as flaming libertarian paranoid extremist at loss for specific objections that don sound frighteningly technical the idea that foisting the cripple chip standard on us manufacturers would result in saying sayonara to yet another high tech market isn technical isn in the least difficult to understand and plays on concern lots of people are worried about already could you expand on this have feeling you re right but don quite understand you could be an ocarina salesman going metatron press austin texas from door to door laurie anderson human systems performance group newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net agate dog ee lbl gov network ucsd edu qualcom qualcomm com qualcom rdippold from rdippold qualcomm com ron asbestos dippold subject re clipper chip bush did it message id rdippold qualcom originator rdippold qualcom qualcomm com keywords big bubba is watching sender news qualcomm com nntp posting host qualcom qualcomm com organization qualcomm inc san diego ca references bontchev fbihh jhessec5ltt5 imc netcom com wcs apr17024857 rainier att com apr19 lmpsbbs comm mot com distribution na date tue apr gmt lines johng ecs comm mot com john gilbert writes this must have been in the works for some time the bush administration must have been working on it for quite while clinton simply took the credit or blame depending on how you look at it and the initiative for actual implementation clinton is not just an innocent bystander here they didn just slap his name on it without consulting him what exactly is his extensive history of individual rights advocacy that people are assuming he really has nothing to do with this he just went back on his pledge to cut the espionage budget and is now asking for more money than even bush wanted ve left my body to science and science is contesting the will xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net agate ames pacbell com amdahl netcomsv netcom com tcmay from tcmay netcom com timothy may subject re once tapped your code is no good any more message id tcmayc5riyd dle netcom com organization netcom on line communication services guest newsreader tin pl5 references c5pon8 q7 chinet chi il us distribution na date tue apr gmt lines dave ihnat ignatz chinet chi il us wrote in article qpg8finn982 dns1 nmsu edu amolitor nmsu edu andrew molitor writes not to pick on mr may in particular of course but isn this kind of the domino theory when one little country falls its neighbor will surely follow and before you know it we re all mining salt in siberia for not turning in our captain crunch secret decoder rings but for all the wrongness of our attempt to correct it vietnam et al the domino theory wasn disproved at all ironically the domino theory in fact was reasonable metaphor for the collapse of communism from the liberalizations in poland and hungary to the border crossings in the summer of to the fall of the wall later that year and then to the ultimate collapse of the ussr tim may timothy may crypto anarchy encryption digital money tcmay netcom com anonymous networks digital pseudonyms zero knowledge reputations information markets aptos ca black markets collapse of governments higher power public key pgp and mailsafe available newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet mdisea mdivax1 van bc markh from markh wimsey bc ca mark henderson subject re source of random bits on unix workstation organization wimsey information services date mon apr gmt message id c5r3ju wimsey bc ca references pivot sbi com qs6cg cq msuinfo cl msu edu lines in article qs6cg cq msuinfo cl msu edu mrr scss3 cl msu edu mark riordan writes few more sources are statistics on your filesystems easily and quickly obtained and the output from the rusage system call you can also exec finger to one or more favorite heavily used systems though this can take several seconds cf the source code to ripem on ripem msu edu mark other alternatives include output of vmstat iostat pstat and friends with various flags or even better crash on an rs aix you can get lots of relatively unpredicatble data out of crash the output from the following script usually gives about of goo on moderately busy system bin sh crash proc tty stack pcb callout vfs socket vnode inode mbuf file mst buffer le mark henderson markh wimsey bc ca ripem key available by key server finger mail md5ofpublickey f1f5f0c3984cbeaf3889adafa2437433 xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt privacy sci crypt alt security comp security misc comp org eff talk newsgroups alt privacy sci crypt alt security comp security misc comp org eff talk path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu moe ksu ksu edu osuunx ucc okstate edu constellation speclab cr usgs gov ngorelic from ngorelic speclab cr usgs gov cr usgs gov noel gorelick subject re white house public encryption management fact sheet originator news essex ecn uoknor edu sender usenet constellation ecn uoknor edu usenet administrator message id c5ras1 mv constellation ecn uoknor edu date tue apr gmt reply to ngorelic speclab cr usgs gov references qoapv rn lucy ee und ac za nntp posting host essex ecn uoknor edu organization mercworks denver newsreader tin version pl6 lines alan barrett barrett lucy ee und ac za wrote in article c5lgaz dove nist gov clipper csrc ncsl nist gov clipper chip announcement writes in making this decision do not intend to prevent the private sector from developing or the government from approving other microcircuits or algorithms that are equally effective in assuring both privacy and secure key escrow system in making this decision intend to prevent the private sector from developing except with the government approval other microcircuits or algorithms that are more effective in assuring privacy doesn this just mean that the government might not approve something for use by other government agencies this does not sound to me to be any form of threat that joe user can develop and use his own encryption algorithm you want it should sing too yeah we got dogs and valvoline ngorelic speclab cr usgs gov its pretty damn good time life is pain anyone that tells you different is trying to sell you something newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet shearson com snark pmetzger from pmetzger snark shearson com perry metzger subject do we need the clipper for cheap security message id apr20 shearson com sender news shearson com news organization partnership for an america free drug references bu edu qufsg edt news intercon com date tue apr gmt lines amanda intercon com amanda walker writes the answer seems obvious to me they wouldn there is other hardware out there not compromised des as an example triple des as better one so where can buy des encrypted cellular phone how much does it cost personally cylink stuff is out of my budget for personal use if the clipper chip can do cheap crypto for the masses obviously one could do the same thing without building in back doors indeed even without special engineering you can construct good system right now standard codec chip chip to do vocoding des chip v32bis integrated modem module and small processor to do glue work are all you need to have secure phone you can dump one or more of the above if you have fast processor with integration you could put all of them onto single chip and in the future they can be yes cheap crypto is good but we don need it from the government you can do everything the clipper chip can do without needing it to be compromised when the white house releases stuff saying this is good because it gives people privacy note that we didn need them to give us privacy the capability is available using commercial hardware right now indeed were it not for the government doing everything possible to stop them qualcomm would have designed strong encryption right in to the cdma cellular phone system they are pioneering were it not for the nsa and company cheap encryption systems would be everywhere as it is they try every trick in the book to stop it had it not been for them sure cheap secure phones would be out right now they aren the ones making cheap crypto available they are the ones keeping cheap crypto out of people hands when they hand you clipper chip what you are getting is mess of pottage your prize for having traded in your birthright and what did we buy with our birthright did we get safety from foreigners no they can read conference papers as well as anyone else and are using strong cryptography did we get safety from professional terrorists suspect that they can get cryptosystems themselves on the open market that work just fine most of them can be idiots like the guys that bombed the trade center are we getting cheaper crypto for ourselves no because the market would have provided that on its own had they not deliberately sabotaged it someone please tell me what exactly we get in our social contract in exchange for giving up our right to strong cryptography perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer le monde va de lui meme newsgroups sci crypt alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com darwin sura net haven umd edu wam umd edu tedwards from tedwards wam umd edu technopagan priest subject re would clipper make good cover for other encryption method message id apr20 wam umd edu sender usenet wam umd edu usenet news system nntp posting host rac2 wam umd edu organization university of maryland college park references apr20 eff org date tue apr gmt lines in article apr20 eff org kadie eff org carl kadie writes clipper might be good way to cover the use of another layer of encryption true but will traditional encryptions schemes when further encrypted by clipper be more vulnerable to attacks such as partially known plaintext thomas path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet psgrain ee und ac za tplinfm from barrett lucy ee und ac za alan barrett newsgroups sci crypt subject re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only date apr organization elec eng univ natal durban africa lines message id r06ro lg lucy ee und ac za references c5qy3m de3 agora rain com nntp posting host lucy ee und ac za in article c5qy3m de3 agora rain com jhart agora rain com jim hart writes since the wiretap chip is being distributed internationally allowing the government to spy on foreign governments companies and people as as well as to wiretap domestic citizens this is world wide issue please put distribution world on the distrubution line thank you no distribution keywords are case sensitive what you want is distribution world or no distribution line at all world in capital letters is wrong apb alan barrett dept of electronic eng univ of natal durban south africa rfc822 barrett ee und ac za xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp org eff talk sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu agate ucbvax silverton berkeley edu djb from djb silverton berkeley edu bernstein newsgroups comp org eff talk alt privacy clipper sci crypt subject does any organization fight encryption is harmful statements message id apr1918 silverton berkeley edu date apr gmt references c5l1d2 gmw dove nist gov followup to comp org eff talk alt privacy clipper organization ir lines here are two quotes from the white house the administration is not saying since encryption threatens the public safety and effective law enforcement we will prohibit it outright as some countries have effectively done nor is the saying that every american as matter of right is entitled to an unbreakable commercial encryption product in making this decision do not intend to prevent the private sector from developing or the government from approving other microcircuits or algorithms that are equally effective in assuring both privacy and secure key escrow system these quotes bother me in three ways many people will read and remember that encryption threatens the public safety and effective law enforcement the administration is explicitly failing to acknowledge that every american is entitled to use strong encryption to ensure his own privacy the president by implication may intend to outlaw any cryptographic devices which ensure privacy but do not have key escrow system want to see an organization which will combat such statements encryption does not threaten the public safety any more than ski masks do every american is entitled to use strong encryption which ensures his own privacy and is not crippled by key escrow system guess looking for league for cryptographic freedom or national cryptography association to what extent does the eff serve this purpose is new organization necessary does it already exist dan xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp org eff talk sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu agate ucbvax silverton berkeley edu djb from djb silverton berkeley edu bernstein newsgroups comp org eff talk alt privacy clipper sci crypt subject does any organization fight encryption is harmful statements message id apr1922 silverton berkeley edu date apr gmt references c5l1d2 gmw dove nist gov followup to comp org eff talk alt privacy clipper organization ir lines here are two quotes from the white house the administration is not saying since encryption threatens the public safety and effective law enforcement we will prohibit it outright as some countries have effectively done nor is the saying that every american as matter of right is entitled to an unbreakable commercial encryption product in making this decision do not intend to prevent the private sector from developing or the government from approving other microcircuits or algorithms that are equally effective in assuring both privacy and secure key escrow system these quotes bother me in three ways many people will read and remember that encryption threatens the public safety and effective law enforcement the administration is explicitly failing to acknowledge that every american is entitled to use strong encryption to ensure his own privacy the president by implication may intend to outlaw any cryptographic devices which ensure privacy but do not have key escrow system want to see an organization which will combat such statements encryption does not threaten the public safety any more than ski masks do every american is entitled to use strong encryption which ensures his own privacy and is not crippled by key escrow system guess looking for league for cryptographic freedom or national cryptography association to what extent does the eff serve this purpose is new organization necessary does it already exist dan newsgroups sci crypt alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu csus edu netcom com tcmay from tcmay netcom com timothy may subject re the escrow database message id tcmayc5rs6n lz8 netcom com organization netcom on line communication services guest newsreader tin pl5 references apr20 shearson com date tue apr gmt lines perry metzger pmetzger snark shearson com wrote here is disturbing thought good stuff elided don pretend that no one unauthorized will ever get their hands on the escrow databases secret the escrow databases aren the sorts of secrets that our teachers told us about but they are the sort of big secrets they would lump into this category imagine trying to replace million clipper chips sounds to me like great gimmick for replacement market every so often issue clipper alert announcing that some key backup tapes are missing that some drug lords got em whatever then the owners of these clipperphones have to trot down to their local key escrow agency and buy new chips and have them programmed microtoxin the clipper supplier will make killing maybe this was the real idea anybody know if janet reno has stock in microtoxin vlsi technology or at could be good opportunity to undermine this with some disinformation float rumors that the key database has been stolen all the chips need replacing it angers people undermines confidence even more and kills sales after the waco massacre and the big brother wiretap chip any tactic is fair tim may timothy may crypto anarchy encryption digital money tcmay netcom com anonymous networks digital pseudonyms zero knowledge reputations information markets aptos ca black markets collapse of governments higher power public key pgp and mailsafe available xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet nwnexus camco1 bill from bill celestial com bill campbell subject re once tapped your code is no good any more organization celestial software mercer island wa distribution na date tue apr gmt message id apr20 celestial com references tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com qpg8finn982 dns1 nmsu edu apr18 yuma acns colostate edu strnlghtc5p7zp zm netcom com lines in strnlghtc5p7zp zm netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes in article apr18 yuma acns colostate edu holland cs colostate edu douglas craig holland writes note that measures to protect yourself from tempest surveillance are still classified as far as know think this to be inaccurate one can buy tempest equipment commercially even macs sure you can buy tempest approved mac if you have enough money haven had any reason to look at this type of pricing for about years but tempest rating in would raise the price of radio shack model iii to something around bill internet bill celestial com bill campbell celestial software uucp thebes camco bill east mercer way uunet camco bill mercer island wa speed costs money how fast do you want to go path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech enterpoop mit edu senator bedfellow mit edu athena mit edu jfc from jfc athena mit edu john carr newsgroups sci crypt subject re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only date apr gmt organization massachusetts institute of technology lines message id r0ausinni01 senator bedfellow mit edu references c5qy3m de3 agora rain com almaden ibm com nntp posting host achates mit edu in article almaden ibm com ameline vnet ibm com ian ameline writes also believe that someone will reverse engineer the clipper chip and knowlege of the algorithm will likely be fairly widespread the chip and algorithm are classified if you reverse engineer it and tell people you are likely to go to jail perhaps some foreign governments or corporations could help us out by cracking the system outside the usa the us government could probably stop importation of clone hardware but software implementation should be practical john carr jfc athena mit edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu uunet mcsun uknet pipex demon gtoal com gtoal newsgroups sci crypt from gtoal gtoal com graham toal subject re do we need the clipper for cheap security date mon apr message id aa10506 pizzabox demon co uk sender usenet demon co uk lines from pmetzger snark shearson com perry metzger indeed were it not for the government doing everything possible to stop them qualcomm would have designed strong encryption right in to the cdma cellular phone system they are pioneering were it not for the nsa and company cheap encryption systems would be everywhere as it is they try every trick in the book to stop it had it not been for them sure cheap secure phones would be out right now in the uk it impossible to get approval to attach any crypto device to the phone network anything that plugs in to our bt phone sockets must be approved for some reason crypto devices just never are was wondering some time ago how big market there was for good old fashion acoustic coupler technology to build secure phone is it possible to mask out all the real voice well enough so that none of it strays into the mouthpiece perhaps well sealed coupler attachment that was as well blocked as possible then white noise generator on the outside to muffle any real speech path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet mcsun uknet pipex demon gtoal com gtoal newsgroups sci crypt from gtoal gtoal com graham toal subject re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow date mon apr message id aa10390 pizzabox demon co uk sender usenet demon co uk lines the cops feds do not need to be able to get hold of your private key to listen in to cellular conversations encryption is not end to end but cellphone to base station it has to be this way so that cellular users and fixed installations can talk to each other for cellular to cellular calls the transmission is decrypted at the base station passed to another base station and re encrypted the cops feds can listen to the unscrambled call provided they get warrant to tap into the cellular provider equipment the only reason for wanting crackable system is so they can listen without having to obtain warrant but maybe the clipper system is secure and they really do need warrant to get the key out of escrow before they can listen in using scanner see above they don have to go down this route anyway have my doubts but even if true once they have the key they will never again need warrant to tap into that particular phone whenever they want well judge it appears he wasn drug dealer after all so naturally we ll stop listening in that was true for the uk paul but fairly sure they re talking about building end to end encryption phones out of this chip it not for cellular though it certainly could be used there in the way you suggest newsgroups sci crypt alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet psgrain percy agora jhart from jhart agora rain com jim hart subject screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only message id c5rrtd gz agora rain com organization open communications forum references c5qy3m de3 agora rain com date tue apr gmt lines since the at wiretap chip is scheduled to be distributed internationally allowing the government to spy on foreign governments companies and people as as well as to wiretap domestic citizens this is world wide issue thus distribution world ygoland wright seas ucla edu the jester writes however assuming that can still encrypt things as please who cares about the clipper chip why do we hackers care about the clipper chip do we give shit about anybody privacy accept our own and perhaps not even our own are we so smart that we always know when we re talking to somebody who has wiretap on their phone find the call thru your computer ideas may reflect this attitude ideas that are of by and for hackers and don help anybody in the real world aren going to do anybody much good including ourselves where voice phones are concerned we do need an alternative to nsa bugged telephones but we re talking inexpensive telephones here including hand sized cellulars that need strong crypto real privacy make shift computer hacker rigs that require living by your computer to talk privately over the phone are just dumb stunt that doesn do anything for anybody privacy in the real world what we need is true privacy chip for example real time voice encryption rsa silicon compile it and spit out asic put this chip on the market as de facto standard for international business diplomats and private communications if the bans it we make it somewhere else and import it the japanese german dutch taiwanese korean etc electronics companies don want the nsa spying on them workers lose more jobs to government fascist stupidity jhart agora rain com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net news centerline com uunet enterpoop mit edu cambridge news cygnus com dumb gumby from gumby tweedledumb cygnus com henkel wallace newsgroups sci crypt subject screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only date apr organization cygnus support cambridge ma usa lines message id gumby apr20073629 tweedledumb cygnus com references c5qy3m de3 agora rain com nntp posting host tweedledumb cygnus com in reply to jhart agora rain com message of apr gmt date apr gmt from jhart agora rain com jim hart simply everyone should have this attitude the only people who can have this attitude are the most hard core computer hackers who never make phone calls away from their computer in yeards everybody will be talkig into his or her pda anyway that should solve most of the problem xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security pgp path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net bogus sura net udel news intercon com digex com digex com not for mail from steve access digex com steve brinich newsgroups sci crypt alt security pgp subject re fighting the clipper initiative date apr organization express access online communications greenbelt md usa lines message id r0nov p3e access digex net references apr19 ncar ucar edu apr19 news weeg uiowa edu qu0mt mlh access digex net b6 rusnews w165w metatron uucp nntp posting host access digex net as flaming libertarian paranoid extremist at loss for specific objections that don sound frighteningly technical the idea that foisting the cripple chip standard on us manufacturers would result in saying sayonara to yet another high tech market isn technical isn in the least difficult to understand and plays on concern lots of people are worried about already could you expand on this simple if you have choice between american manufacturers peddling cripple chips with secret untested algorithm whose keys are held by people with history of untrustworthy behavoir or japanese to pick the obvious example manufacturers peddling encryption chips with an algorithm that has faced public scrutiny and keys under the control of the user which would you choose at most the american government can deny this choice to american citizens and probably not that if the glorious success of the war on drugs is any example it can do much about the global market newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net bogus sura net udel news intercon com psinntp shearson com newshost pmetzger from pmetzger snark shearson com perry metzger subject re fifth amendment and passwords in reply to caronni nessie cs id ethz ch message of tue apr gmt message id pmetzger apr20062134 snark shearson com sender news shearson com news reply to pmetzger lehman com organization lehman brothers references apr18 colnet cmhnet org apr19 qualcomm com qv83m i2 geraldo cc utexas edu apr20 bernina ethz ch date tue apr gmt lines in article apr20 bernina ethz ch caronni nessie cs id ethz ch germano caronni writes just question as provider of public bbs service aren you bound by law to gurantee intelligble access to the data of the users on the bbs if police comes with sufficent authorisation guessed this would be basic condition for such systems did run bbs some time ago but that was in switzerland you are obliged to let the police search the equipment if they have proper court order you are under no legal obligation to keep the data intelligble if you wish to run your bbs entirely with all data encrypted such that if the police show up they cannot read anything well thats their problem there are no legal restrictions on domestic use of cryptography in the united states yet perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer le monde va de lui meme newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net bogus sura net udel news intercon com psinntp shearson com newshost pmetzger from pmetzger snark shearson com perry metzger subject facinating facts bit serial number possibly fixed s1 and s2 in reply to denning guvax acc georgetown edu message of apr message id pmetzger apr20065402 snark shearson com sender news shearson com news reply to pmetzger lehman com organization lehman brothers references apr19 guvax acc georgetown edu date tue apr gmt lines denning guvax acc georgetown edu vidkun abraham lauritz quisling writes each chip includes the following components the skipjack encryption algorithm an bit family key that is common to all chips bit serial number an bit secret key that unlocks all messages encrypted with the chip hmmm thirty bit serial number and we are told the unit key is derived deterministically from this serial number that means that there are only one billion possible unit keys to generate the unit key for serial number the bit value is first padded with fixed bit block to produce bit block n1 s1 and s2 are then used as keys to triple encrypt n1 producing bit block r1 r1 n1 s1 s2 s1 similarly is padded with two other bit blocks to produce n2 and n3 and two additional bit blocks r2 and r3 are computed r2 n2 s1 s2 s1 r3 n3 s1 s2 s1 r1 r2 and r3 are then concatenated together giving bits the first bits are assigned to u1 and the second bits to u2 the rest are discarded the unit key is the xor of u1 and u2 u1 and u2 are the key parts that are separately escrowed with the two escrow agencies hmmm we must assume that generating the unit key from the serial number rather than generating it from randomly selected u1 and u2 is an intentional way of assuring fail safe for the government is completedly determined given s1 s2 and if s1 and s2 do not change they constitute effective master keys along with the theft of which or the possession of which by various authorities completely obviates the security of the system however more interestingly we know for fact that if s1 and s2 are fixed no matter what the keyspace for is no more than why not pick u1 and u2 at random why this interesting restriction of they key space if it not to provide an additional back door find it disturbing that at the very best my security is dependant on approximately bytes worth of information that could be written on the back of napkin even if s1 and s2 change periodically the rationale behind this restriction in the size of the keyspace seems strange if one is assuming that the goal is security and makes perfect sense if the goal is an illusion of security if s1 and s2 do not change even if they remain secret wonder if they can somehow be back derived given enough unit key serial number pairs we are assured that this cannot happen but no one understands how skipjack works outside of government officials and soon foreign intelligence services that gain the information via espionage presumably we will eventually have the information as well reverse engineering gets more and more advanced every year but by the time we know it may be too late as sequence of values for u1 u2 and are generated they are written onto three separate floppy disks the first disk contains file for each serial number that contains the corresponding key part u1 the second disk is similar but contains the u2 values the third disk contains the unit keys agent takes the first disk and agent takes the second disk the third disk is used to program the chips after the chips are programmed all information is discarded from the vault and the agents leave the laptop may be destroyed for additional assurance that no information is left behind none of this makes me feel the least bit secure the silly notion of destroying the laptop appears to be yet another bizarre distraction we all know that you can read data from dram that has been turned off for more than few moments on the other hand what we don know is why there is need to generate the unit keys from s1 and s2 in the first place other than to weaken the system we don know if the agents in question would resist million in cash piece for their information its probably worth hundreds of million so you can make the bribe arbitrarily hard to resist and to tell you the truth doing this in vault rather than in joe random tempest shielded room with laptop computer seems like melodrama designed to make high school dropouts from peoria impressed but it does very little for most of the rest of us the protocol may be changed slightly so that four people are in the room instead of two the first two would provide the seeds s1 and s2 and the second two the escrow agents would take the disks back to the escrow agencies what would this provide lets say the escrow agencies are the aclu and the nra and their agents personally take back the disks and are always honest who cares the nsa must be laughing out loud because they have the algorithm to regenerate given and likely don need to steal they keys as they effectively already have them perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer le monde va de lui meme xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security pgp newsgroups sci crypt alt security pgp path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu jebright from jebright magnus acs ohio state edu james ebright subject re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip message id apr20 magnus acs ohio state edu summary fort meade has lots of compute power more than anywhere else sender news magnus acs ohio state edu nntp posting host bottom magnus acs ohio state edu organization the ohio state university references pgf srl03 cacs usl edu bb51156 c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu apr19 jarvis csri toronto edu date tue apr gmt lines in article apr19 jarvis csri toronto edu lewis eecg toronto edu david lewis writes in article bb51156 c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu john kelsey writes strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes stuff deleted but who would trust his her confidential information to an encryption scheme that for say could by cracked one time in hundred des for all the complaints about bit key would probably cost several million dollars to build keysearch machine for can buy des keysearch machine off the shelf now for approx but it is not sold by that name go buy circuit emulation machine eg quickturn containing bunch of fpgas say to and program each to be des search engine lets say chips running at mhz tests sec time is e6 sec max weeks weeks average can wait that long buy bigger machine oh but can big brother afford such things in these times of tight budgets don know how many folks noticed it but dorothy trust me denning gave real clue to the current state of the art at nsa on decrypto machines when she said the nsa told her they didn even want to be the holder of any part of the key now why is that doubt there is trapdoor in skipjack but we will never know and doubt the nsa would promote mass market chip they couldn compromise ergo nsa is now capable of compromising probably with brute force keysearch engines of the complexity of skipjack look at the specs why bet they have thousands of little chips chugging away in their crypto busters maybe even tens of thousands complexity not much more than how many such machines will fit into fort meade think pgp2 should have bit idea keys information farming at for addr phone finger the ohio state university jebright magnus acs ohio state edu jim ebright mail jre osu edu support privacy support encryption newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu jebright from jebright magnus acs ohio state edu james ebright subject re once tapped your code is no good any more message id apr20 magnus acs ohio state edu sender news magnus acs ohio state edu nntp posting host bottom magnus acs ohio state edu organization the ohio state university references bu edu strnlghtc5nrhw qb netcom com rubin dsg4 dse beckman com distribution na date tue apr gmt lines in article rubin dsg4 dse beckman com arthur rubin writes in strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes be happy to use crypto system supplied by the nsa for business if they told me it was more secure than des and in particular resistant to attempts by japanese french and other competitive companies and governments to break it nist not nsa nsa is not supposed to have anything to do with this with all the activity in sci crypt these past few days am not supprised you missed it nist got skipjack from the nsa trust the nsa or the president if they stated there were no trap doors be even happier if committee of independent experts examined the thing under seal of secrecy and reported back that it was secure wouldn trust the nsa think would trust the president on this but not certain he would be told am not crook president richard nixon information farming at for addr phone finger the ohio state university jebright magnus acs ohio state edu jim ebright mail jre osu edu support privacy support encryption path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net uunet mcsun uknet pipex demon gtoal com gtoal newsgroups sci crypt from gtoal gtoal com graham toal subject re text of white house announcement and as on clipper chip encryption date mon apr message id aa13262 pizzabox demon co uk sender usenet demon co uk lines from brad clarinet com brad templeton let assume for the moment that the system really is secure unless you get both halves of the encryption key from the two independent escrow houses let say you even trust the escrow houses one is the aclu and the other is the eff and not entirely joking about those two names really not entirely sure trust eff any more to be honest anyway any organisation can be deeply infiltrated look at cnd in britain dozen years ago one of their top members was an sis spy who stole their complete address list how hard would it be to get one person to sneak in and copy the escrow data to disk path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet pipex demon gtoal com gtoal newsgroups sci crypt from gtoal gtoal com graham toal subject re text of white house announcement and as on clipper chip encryption date mon apr message id aa13170 pizzabox demon co uk sender usenet demon co uk lines bred wrote and this means that the fbi will want to track the customer lists of better encryption phones because the only reason person would want one is to evade the police they don have to track customer lists they merely have to digitally listen to any phone line and eliminate any that don have the clipper header signature no one has said how it will be modulated want bet it non standard and hence easily recognisable baudrate devices to scan exchanges and detect modems etc already exist ve seen them advertised in the trade press once you eliminate crippled crypto devices and ordinary data modems what left is crypto worth looking more closely at guess any substitute scheme will have to be v32bis or fast to disguise it though then they just start looking at the data too whatever happens though the effect of this new chip will be to make private crypto stand out like sore thumb newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net uunet math fu berlin de ifmsun8 ifm uni hamburg de rzsun2 informatik uni hamburg de fbihh bontchev from bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de vesselin bontchev subject re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow message id bontchev fbihh keywords encryption wiretap clipper key escrow mykotronx sender news informatik uni hamburg de mr news reply to bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de organization virus test center university of hamburg references strnlghtc5lgfi jqa netcom com apr18 yuma acns colostate edu strnlghtc5pucl kp netcom com rwing uucp date tue apr gmt lines pat rwing uucp pat myrto writes can you while my mind is on it give us one good reason that the algorithm should be secret algorithm unless this encryption scheme either is joke or contains features like master key or other back door for unauthorized eavesdropping hmm here are couple if the algorithm becomes known it will be easy to produce pin compatible non crippled chips that provide real encryption and privacy because their keys are only in their users hands since skipjack is symmetric key cypher it needs some way to agree on session key the released information says that any protocol may be used dh from theoretical point of view this is probably true however from practical point of view those chips must have some kind of key exchange protocol built in what if it is good old rsa this will mean that the producer will have to pay lots of bucks to pkp by keeping the details secret this can be avoided regards vesselin vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center university of hamburg tel fax fachbereich informatik agn pgp public key available on request vogt koelln strasse rm mail bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de hamburg germany newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu linac att att out cbnewsh cbnewsh cb att com wcs from wcs anchor ho att com bill stewart subject re fifth amendment and passwords organization brought to you by the numbers and date tue apr gmt message id wcs apr20115239 rainier att com in reply to pmetzger snark shearson com message of tue apr gmt references apr18 colnet cmhnet org apr19 qualcomm com qv83m i2 geraldo cc utexas edu apr20 bernina ethz ch pmetzger apr20062134 snark shearson com sender news cbnewsh cb att com netnews administrator nntp posting host rainier ho att com lines in article apr20 bernina ethz ch caronni nessie cs id ethz ch germano caronni writes just question as provider of public bbs service aren you bound by law to gurantee intelligble access to the data of the users on the bbs if police comes with sufficent authorisation guessed this would be basic condition for such systems did run bbs some time ago but that was in switzerland the us doesn yet have many laws covering bbss they re not common carriers they re not phone companies they re just private machines or services operated by businesses there no obligation to keep records as perry metzger points out if the police come with search warrant you have to let them see what the warrant demands if it exists and they generally can confiscate the equipment as evidence which is not constitutionally valid but we re only beginning to develop court cases supporting us court may be able to compel you to tell them information you know such as the encryption password for the disk there aren any definitive cases yet since it new situation and there probably aren laws specifically covering it but the court can force you to know the keys and there are no laws preventing you from allowing your users to have their own keys for their own files without giving them to you even in areas that do have established law there is uncertainty there was guy in idaho few years ago who had his business records subpoenaed as evidence for taxes or some other business restriction law so he gave the court the records which were in hebrew the us doesn have laws forcing you to keep your records in english and these were the originals of the records he didn speak hebrew and neither did anybody in the court organization don think they were able to do much about it it might be illegal for your bbs to deny access to potential customers based on race religion national origin gender or sexual preference it probably hasn been tested in court but it seems like plausible extension of anti discrimination laws affecting other businesses pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com at bell labs m312 holmdel nj no from new jersey only work in cyberspace white house commect line fax path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net gatech pitt edu dsinc ub clarkson signal ece clarkson edu tuinstra from tuinstra signal ece clarkson edu soe dwight tuinstra newsgroups sci crypt subject new reason for clipper alg secrecy message id apr20 news clarkson edu date apr gmt references x9d92b4w165w tacobel uucp sender news news clarkson edu reply to tuinstra signal ece clarkson edu soe organization sun microsystems inc lines nntp posting host signal ece clarkson edu apologies for not posting to alt clipper or whatever but it seems it may not be in the newsfeed here there may be another reason good from nsa point of view horrible from everyone else why the algorithm chip design might be secret first note that the experts will only look at details and of just the algorithm in addition respected experts from outside the government will be offered access to the confidential details of the algorithm to assess its capabilities and publicly report their findings why not the chip design well here the possiblity in addition to encryption the chip pre processes voice signals to make them easier to analyze transcribe electronically the chip once widespread might effectively be part of massively parallel computer for voice grepping the us phone network or the criminal wrong thinking patrons thereof wouldn put it past the nsa think how much easier it would make life for them and if this is indeed the case think of the possible public outcry should it become widely known thus the secrecy it might be good idea to have experts in dsp voice recognition and ai conversation understanding to be on that panel and insist they be given authenticatable design specs and implementation documentation dwight tuinstra best tuinstra sandman ece clarkson edu tolerable tuinstrd craft camp clarkson edu look out kid it something that you did god knows when but you re doin it again path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet vnet ibm com from ameline vnet ibm com ian ameline message id almaden ibm com date tue apr edt subject facinating facts bit serial number possibly fixed s1 and s2 newsgroups sci crypt references apr19 guvax acc georgetown edu pmetzger apr20065402 snark shearson com organization set development ibm canada lab disclaimer this posting represents the poster views not those of ibm lines hmmm we must assume that generating the unit key from the serial number rather than generating it from randomly selected u1 and u2 is an intentional way of assuring fail safe for the government is completedly determined given s1 s2 and if s1 and s2 do not change they constitute effective master keys along with the theft of which or the possession of which by various authorities completely obviates the security of the system however more interestingly we know for fact that if s1 and s2 are fixed no matter what the keyspace for is no more than why not pick u1 and u2 at random why this interesting restriction of they key space if it not to provide an additional back door find it disturbing that at the very best my security is dependant on approximately bytes worth of information that could be written on the back of napkin even if s1 and s2 change periodically the rationale behind this restriction in the size of the keyspace seems strange if one is assuming that the goal is security and makes perfect sense if the goal is an illusion of security if s1 and s2 do not change even if they remain secret wonder if they can somehow be back derived given enough unit key serial number pairs we are assured that this cannot happen but no one understands how skipjack works outside of government officials and soon foreign intelligence services that gain the information via espionage presumably we will eventually have the information as well reverse engineering gets more and more advanced every year but by the time we know it may be too late perhaps the trusted escrow agencies can be the ones who come up with s1 and s2 and if these agencies are really trusted aclu nra is an interesting example we can hope that they ll use some physical process to come up with truly random numbers if the nsa comes up with the numbers that trap door you could drive truck through none of this makes me feel the least bit secure me either it seems from the following that the cpsr is atleats starting to question this bogosity april washington dc computer professionals call for public debate on new government encryption initiative computer professionals for social responsibility cpsr today called for the public disclosure of technical data underlying the government newly announced public encryption management initiative the new cryptography scheme was announced today by the white house and the national institute for standards and technology nist which will implement the technical specifications of the plan nist spokesman acknowledged that the national security agency nsa the super secret military intelligence agency had actually developed the encryption technology around which the new initiative is built according to nist the technical specifications and the presidential directive establishing the plan are classified to open the initiative to public review and debate cpsr today filed series of freedom of information act foia requests with key agencies including nsa nist the national security council and the fbi for information relating to the encryption plan the cpsr requests are in keeping with the spirit of the computer security act which congress passed in in order to open the development of non military computer security standards to public scrutiny and to limit nsa role in the creation of such standards cpsr previously has questioned the role of nsa in developing the so called digital signature standard dss communications authentication technology that nist proposed for government wide use in after cpsr sued nist in foia lawsuit last year the civilian agency disclosed for the first time that nsa had in fact developed that security standard nsa is due to file papers in federal court next week justifying the classification of records concerning its creation of the dss david sobel cpsr legal counsel called the administration apparent commitment to the privacy of electronic communications as reflected in today official statement step in the right direction but he questioned the propriety of nsa role in the process and the apparent secrecy that has thus far shielded the development process from public scrutiny at time when we are moving towards the development of new information infrastructure it is vital that standards designed to protect personal privacy be established openly and with full public participation it is not appropriate for nsa an agency with long tradition of secrecy and opposition to effective civilian cryptography to play leading role in the development process cpsr is national public interest alliance of computer industry professionals dedicated to examining the impact of technology on society cpsr has chapters in the and maintains offices in palo alto california cambridge massachusetts and washington dc for additional information on cpsr call or mail cpsr csli stanford edu regards ian ameline xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu moe ksu ksu edu phys ksu edu rjq from rjq phys ksu edu rob quinn newsgroups sci crypt alt privacy clipper subject stray thought was re more technical details date apr gmt organization kansas state university lines message id r18kp bn moe ksu ksu edu references apr19 ulysses att com nntp posting host bohr phys ksu edu in apr19 ulysses att com smb research att com steven bellovin writes date sun apr edt from denning cs georgetown edu dorothy denning the clipper chip will have secret crypto algorithm embedded in the algorithm operates on bit blocks like des and the chip supports all des modes of operation the algorithm uses rounds of scrambling compared with in des so in few years there could be millions of these chips in the usa all networked together sounds like good science fiction story the government wants to crack foreign des or whatever messages so they con the public into individually buying all of the components and installing them soon the us could be covered by the largest parallel computer in the world built on top of our current phone net those who suppress freedom always rob quinn do so in the name of law rjq phys ksu edu and order john lindsay quinnbob ksuvm bitnet xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp programming sci math sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu msuinfo scss3 cl msu edu mrr from mrr scss3 cl msu edu mark riordan newsgroups comp programming sci math sci crypt subject list of large integer arithmetic packages date apr gmt organization michigan state university lines message id r19e7 jkr msuinfo cl msu edu nntp posting host scss3 cl msu edu summary functions to do arbitrary precision arith newsreader tin version pl8 this is the file bignums txt from ripem msu edu last updated april in response to email requests have assembled this list of large integer arithmetic packages of which have heard most of these are function libraries available in source form for your convenience have placed copies of some of these on ripem msu edu they are available for anonymous ftp in the directory pub bignum however what have may not be the most current version in all cases here they are in no particular order mp multiple precision package that comes with some unixes multiple precision package accessed via lmp flag on your compiler provides gcd exponentiation sqrt comes with sunos next mach bbn mach and probably few others see man mp object code only of course pari henri cohen et al universite bordeaux paris france multiple precision desk calculator and library routines contains optimized assembly code for motorola semi optimized code for sparc and apparently rather slow generic version does both integers and reals does vectors and matrices as well as scalars contains number of advanced functions some of which ve never heard of weber function has factorization function primality test other related stuff plenty of tex documentation public domain but you can distribute modified versions available via anonymous ftp from math ucla edu there seem to be mac and next specific versions there in addition to filename pari tar arithmetic in global fields arith kevin coombes david grant package of routines for arbitrary precision integers or polynomials over finite fields includes basic and few others like gcd source code in distributed under the terms of the gnu public license includes man pages and tex documentation filename arith tar arbitrary precision math library lloyd zusman los gatos ca package which supports basic provides for radix points non integers not as polished as the others here posted to comp sources misc in october filename apml tar bignum vuillemin inria france and others distributed by digital equipment paris research lab decprl portable and efficient arbitrary precision integer package code with generic kernel plus assembly kernels for mc680x0 intel i960 mips ns32032 pyramid and of course vax this is probably one of the better known packages of this type implements mod plus logical operations or and xor both signed and unsigned arithmetic available available via email from librarian decprl dec com you will receive shell archives give your postal address and you will also receive printed documentation from france package includes tex documentation publicly available for non commercial use removed this from my archive when heard rumor that prl doesn like others to distribute it however bignum is distributed as part of ecpp see below lenstra package arjen lenstra bellcore portable unsigned integer package written entirely in includes exponentiation mod primality testing sqrt random number generator and few others the package was uncommented and undocumented have tried to add enough comments to get by this is the only of these packages that have actually used it works well and is very portable haven done any benchmarks against the others but the code looks clever lenstra is an accomplished number theorist unlike the other packages here this one requires you to allocate storage statically only problem if your numbers are really huge arjen has placed the code in the public domain filename lenstra tar lenstra arjen lenstra bellcore an improved version of arjen package above this one does signed arithmetic and dynamic allocation which can be turned off as an option has few new routines too lenstra contains minor bugfixes to the previously available lenstra and lenstra filename lenstra bmp brent multiple precision brent vintage fortran code to do extended precision floating fixed point arithmetic includes most of the mathematical functions you find in fortran run time library this code is an acm algorithm number to obtain send mail message to netlib ornl gov containing the line send mp from bmp or better yet perhaps just start with help spx kannan alagappan joseph tardo dec this is huge prototype public key authentication system based on rsa mention it here because those who have heard of spx have probably correctly guessed that it contains large integer package and want to inform you that the large integer package it contains is indeed dec bignum from france you can get beta test copy of spx from crl dec com use it only for testing as it may expire on certain date don know whether this has expired yet amp antti multiple precision antti louko alo kampi hut fi multiple precision integer package in includes pow mod mod random sqrt gcd available for non commercial use the package includes share secret public key system based on the diffie hellman algorithm this is normally part of the well known des dist tar but have removed the des part to avoid having to deal with cryptographic export laws and have named the result filename amp tar gennum per bothner of wisconsin madison routines and classes to do generic arithmetic both integer and rational formerly available on sevenlayer cs wis edu however it seems to have disappeared sorry miracl by someone in dublin ireland integer and fractional multiple precision package includes factorization primality testing encryption not public domain apparently it is available from the austin code works see ads in byte magazine or dr dobbs precision dave barrett barrettd tigger colorado edu multiple precision integer package in with sqrt rand mod pow log simple vector support does dynamic allocation of memory free as long as you don sell it or any program that uses it filename precision tar ubasic prof yuji kida rikkyo university nishi ikebukuro tokyo japan kida rkmath rikkyo ac jp multiple precision version of the basic programming language for ms dos includes floating point said by keith briggs to be pretty fast object only think ervin morekypr bitnet says this is the best package that know of for fast arithmetic has version optimized for machines includes routines to do mpqs the fastest currently known general factoring algorithm an additional file is at both sites to allow mpqs to use hard drives so that it can factor up to digits many number theoretical functions are included in ubasic it allows over digits of precision available via anonymous ftp from shape mps ohio state edu or simtel20 army mil or wuarchive wustl edu calc v22 unknown ms dos like language that allows infinite precision nice intrinsic functions ervin morekypr bitnet reports problems when changing precision on the fly see simtel20 or wuarchive briggs arith keith briggs kbriggs mundoe maths mu oz au turbo pascal source for routines that do multiple precision sqrt gcd factoring rand for integers also includes and rand for rational numbers filename briggs arith pas institute fur experimentelle mathematik dr gerhard schneider fast multiple precision subroutine library don know anything about it sl25 ely cl cam ac uk says to contact mat420 de0hrz1a bitnet for more info postal address institute fur experimentelle mathematik ellernstr d4300 essen germany longint markus mueller mueller komsys tik ethz ch multi precision arithmetic written in modula with the most time critical parts written in assembler includes basic arithmetics as well as arithmetics modulo number an additional module provides collection of procedures for primality testing gcd multiplicative inverse and more the package is part of privacy enhanced mail pem package which includes pem mailer rsa key generator and certificate generation tools source is in modula and assembler for sun longint has also been ported to ms dos under logitech modula and turbo assembler availability free for university use research and education otherwise source license is required to obtain write or email to markus mueller bertastrasse ch dietikon switzerland email mueller komsys tik ethz ch bignum henrik johansson nexus comm se bignum package written in portable will in the future conform to the common lisp functions that handles integers currently includes exponentiation exptmod comparison random numbers and gcd filename bignum gnu multiple precision gnu free software foundation multiple precision package haven looked at it yet this is current as of april but there may be more recent version by the time you read this this package is very widely available on ftp sites filename gmp tar elliptic curve primality proving francois morian france large package to prove the primality of any prime includes inria bignum package obtained from ftp inria fr filename ecpp v3 tar pgp pretty good privacy philip zimmermann prz sage cgd ucar edu intel based crypto package that includes bignum routines in said to be quite fast for intel processors unix and mac versions also available the crypto package violates rsa patents but the bignum routines can be used without fear of legal repercussions bell arbitrary precision calculator david bell australia dbell pdact pd necisa oz au arbitrary precision calculator with good online help like language many builtin functions support for integers rational numbers they work like floating point complex numbers matrices strings lists files objects includes gcd primality testing even trig functions recommended large package though obtained from comp sources unix filename calc tar built in support in other languages various multiple precision arithmetic is available in number of programming languages such as lisp and abc cf mcsun eu net perl by larry wall available from devvax jpl nasa gov includes source in perl for such package but it probably not suitable for serious use for some of these source code may be available this list is long enough so not going to pursue it aggressively thanks to ed vielmetti and several others who contributed to this list mark riordan mrr ripem msu edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu lynx unm edu dns1 nmsu edu opus ted from ted nmsu edu ted dunning newsgroups sci crypt subject re text of white house announcement and as on clipper chip encryption date apr organization computing research lab lines distribution na message id ted apr20105137 lole nmsu edu references c5l17v gh5 dove nist gov nntp posting host lole nmsu edu in reply to clipper csrc ncsl nist gov message of fri apr gmt nobody seems to have noticed that the clipper chip must have been under development for considerably longer than the months that clinton has been president this is not something that choosing choosing bush over clinton would have changed in the slightest it has been in the works for some time path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net noc near net uunet pipex demon gtoal com gtoal newsgroups sci crypt from gtoal gtoal com graham toal subject re facinating facts bit serial number possibly fixed s1 and s2 date mon apr message id aa14273 pizzabox demon co uk sender usenet demon co uk lines from pmetzger snark shearson com perry metzger denning guvax acc georgetown edu vidkun abraham lauritz quisling writes each chip includes the following components the skipjack encryption algorithm an bit family key that is common to all chips bit serial number an bit secret key that unlocks all messages encrypted with the chip hmmm thirty bit serial number and we are told the unit key is derived deterministically from this serial number that means that there are only one billion possible unit keys oh hell it much worse than that you think they ll ever make more than million of them serial numbers aren handed out at random you know they start at and work up call it bit space maybe xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt privacy clipper newsgroups sci crypt alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net noc near net uunet pipex pavo csi cam ac uk rja14 from rja14 cl cam ac uk ross anderson subject re clipper chip technical details message id apr20 infodev cam ac uk sender news infodev cam ac uk usenet news nntp posting host ely cl cam ac uk organization of cambridge computer lab uk references apr18 ulysses att com apr1821 silverton berkeley edu apr19 ulysses att com apr1907 silverton berkeley edu date tue apr gmt lines in article apr19 ulysses att com smb research att com steven bellovin writes nothing was said about where comes from if you ve got secure device you don need public keys if the secret key which all chips share is sk you can just use kp myname yourname date sk maybe that why jim bidzos was reported as being cheesed off ross xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu mstar n8emr colnet res from res colnet cmhnet org rob stampfli subject re once tapped your code is no good any more message id apr20 colnet cmhnet org organization little to none references qpg8finn982 dns1 nmsu edu apr18 yuma acns colostate edu pgf srl03 cacs usl edu distribution na date tue apr gmt lines with mail if they can break your pgp encryption they ll just call up one of their tempest trucks and read the electromagnetic emmisions from your computer or terminal note that measures to protect yourself from could independently invent about half dozen right off the top of my head if had studied advanced little better could probably come up with very good system wouldn second monitor of similar type scrolling gibberish and adjacent to the one being used provide reasonable resistance to tempest attacks rob stampfli rob colnet cmhnet org the neat thing about standards ham radio kd8wk n8jyv oh there are so many to choose from newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu mstar n8emr colnet res from res colnet cmhnet org rob stampfli subject re the old key registration idea message id apr20 colnet cmhnet org organization little to none references qn1ic hp6 access digex net date tue apr gmt lines in article qn1ic hp6 access digex net pcw access digex com peter wayner writes that leads me to conjecture that the system is vulnerable to simple phone swapping attacks seriously doubt that any practical implementation of this proposal would place the onus on the individual to register keys realistically the clipper chip will probably emit an id code which will serve as the identifier when requesting the key fragments the chip manufacturer would register this identifier code vs key combination when the chip is made and the uninitiated end user can therefore remain completely outside the loop the chip could be used in cellular phone modem or other device it really makes no difference when the authorities detect the use of this encryption standard during surveillance they would then capture the id and apply for the key in order to decrypt the data rob stampfli rob colnet cmhnet org the neat thing about standards ham radio kd8wk n8jyv oh there are so many to choose from xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu chinacat balkan ccird felixg from felixg coop com felix gallo subject re once tapped your code is no good any more organization cooperative computing inc distribution na date tue apr gmt message id apr20 coop com references apr17 clarinet com tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com apr17 clarinet com rwing uucp lines pat rwing uucp pat myrto writes if the clinton clipper is so very good please note that bill clinton probably has little if anything to do with the design implementation or reasoning behind this chip or behind any moves being made using this chip as pawn remember when you elect president of the united states it not the case that all the republicans etc in the nsa and fbi and cia immediately pack their bags and get replaced by team of fresh young democrats most of the government say is appointed or hired rather than elected since this clipper device has been in production for over six months it probably has little or no foundation in the currently elected democratic executive body btw those who suggest that this is just an attack on clinton believe this would be going ballistic reagardless who seriously proposed this thing it is just another step in gradual erosion of our rights under the constitution or bill of rights the last couple of decades have been non stop series of end runs around the protections of the constitution it has to stop now is as good time as any if it isn too late allready could be however the sky hasn fallen yet chicken little pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle wa if all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and am not sure about the former albert einstien path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net spool mu edu torn nott uotcsi2 revcan balsam uuisis tanda marc from marc tanda isis org marc thibault newsgroups sci crypt subject re don fight clipper chip subvert or replace it message id dn5 tanda isis org date mon apr edt references apr17 clarinet com tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com rlglendec5naji ue netcom com ygoland wright reply to marc tanda isis org distribution na organization thibault friends lines in article ygoland wright the jester writes proof windows is virus it is very widespread it eats up your disk space it slows down your computer it takes control over your computer it performs disk access at random times it displays silly messages on your screen it randomly crashes the computer vesselin this sounds like version unix solaris path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net agate netsys pagesat olivea sgigate sgi wdl1 phobos koontzd from koontzd phobos lrmsc loral com david koontz newsgroups sci crypt subject spoofing clipper serial number message id apr20 wdl loral com date apr gmt references apr20 wdl loral com sender news wdl loral com distribution usa organization loral rolm mil spec computers lines secrecy in clipper chip the serial number of the clipper chip is encrypted with the system key and transmitted as one part of three part message presumably the protocol can be recovered if by nothing else differential analysis postulate if you will chip or logic sitting between the clipper chip and its communications channel the purpose of this chip is twofold transmit channel the spoof chip xors the bit encrypted serial number with secondary keying variable this renders the serial number unrecoverable with just the system key recieve channel the spoof chip xors the incoming encrypted serial number with secondary keying variable assuming the serial number is necessary for local operation this has the net result of hiding the serial number this gets more interesting when the number of serial numbers issued becomes large making it difficult to distinguish between valid serial numbers and spoofed serial number without knowing the system key you could lie about the serial number but risk detection of the lie if you had the system key and the encryption algorithm you could successfully lie with lower probability of detection by emulating the format of your own serial number makes you wonder whats being hidden here seems like the secrecy is to prevent you from lying about who you are newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu sample eng ohio state edu maumee butzerd from butzerd maumee eng ohio state edu dane butzer subject how large are commercial keys message id apr20 ee eng ohio state edu sender news ee eng ohio state edu organization the ohio state university dept of electrical engineering date tue apr gmt lines what are the typical sizes for keys for commercial secret key algorithms know des is bits tripple des is bits and idea is bits is there anything made in the us that has bit keys anything anywhere that has larger keys ve heard that rc2 can be scaled to arbitrarily large keys but is this actually implemented anywhere finally can anyone even concieve of time place where bit keys aren sufficient certainly can even at trillion keys second it would take about billion years to search just one billionth of that keys space thanks dane path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net bogus sura net udel news intercon com usenet from amanda intercon com amanda walker newsgroups sci crypt subject re do we need the clipper for cheap security date tue apr organization intercon systems corporation herndon va usa lines distribution world message id r1f62 rh5 news intercon com references apr20 shearson com reply to amanda intercon com amanda walker nntp posting host chaos intercon com newsreader intercon tcp connect ii pmetzger snark shearson com perry metzger writes if the clipper chip can do cheap crypto for the masses obviously one could do the same thing without building in back doors agree so why is cylink the only and expensive game in town note think cylink is great and if my boss would double my salary buy bunch of their stuff one thing that clipper offers is interoperability at higher degree of security than we currently have in non proprietary voice encryption systems this means it will be cheaper than anyone proprietary scheme and easier to deploy this is of course either bug or feature depending on how you look at it indeed even without special engineering you can construct good system right now standard codec chip chip to do vocoding des chip v32bis integrated modem module and small processor to do glue work are all you need to have secure phone great where can buy it another note if clipper increases the incentive to bring stronger encryption to the mass market all the better it far overpriced at the moment yes cheap crypto is good but we don need it from the government don care where we need to get it from care where we can get it from and whether it will interoperate with everyone else indeed were it not for the government doing everything possible to stop them qualcomm would have designed strong encryption right in to the cdma cellular phone system they are pioneering were it not for the nsa and company cheap encryption systems would be everywhere as it is they try every trick in the book to stop it had it not been for them sure cheap secure phones would be out right now you can build them right now as long as you don want to export restriction firmly oppose the only thing stopping people from making cheap encryption is greed they want lock on the market they aren the ones making cheap crypto available they are the ones keeping cheap crypto out of people hands when they hand you clipper chip what you are getting is mess of pottage your prize for having traded in your birthright oh come on only if you trust it farther than it deserves clipper phone is not substitute for cylink phone or stu iii it substitute for the voice scramblers advertised in the back of radio electronics are we getting cheaper crypto for ourselves no because the market would have provided that on its own had they not deliberately sabotaged it disagree modulo itar it not the government that has sabotaged the market someone please tell me what exactly we get in our social contract in exchange for giving up our right to strong cryptography can you tell me where exactly we have given up that right amanda walker intercon systems corporation xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt comp org eff talk path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester rochester news crd ge com uunet optilink brad from brad optilink com brad yearwood newsgroups sci crypt comp org eff talk subject clipper considered harmful message id optilink com date apr gmt organization optilink corporation petaluma ca lines if clipper comes to cellular phones along with legal proscriptions against using other cipher systems on these phones new and potentially dangerous class of crime is created criminals who very badly want inscrutable tactical communications specifically the terrorists and drug dealers who proponents of key escrow cite as threats will be highly motivated to steal the cipher phone of legitimate user and to kill this person or hold them hostage so discovery of compromise of the device will be delayed once suitable collection of devices is stolen criminals can communicate with impunity assuming the cipher system carries no trapdoors apart from key escrow until and unless the compromise is discovered by some other means because life is cheap criminals are currently willing to kill people to steal very large and conspicuous property luxury cars it is reasonable to assume that they will be willing to kill people to steal small and inconspicuous property cipher cellular phone just as we have seen in the past with blue box technology and in the present with modified cellular phones we can expect to see among high stakes criminals lucrative market for stolen cipher phones which can be used for few days the high stakes criminals will pay the life is cheap types substantial amounts for stolen instruments because person is typically discovered as missing or dead in few days stolen instrument will be usable for only few days there will be continuing demand for fresh phones fresh bodies in other words clipper and similar systems have the potential to turn current inconvenience to law enforcement into direct vicious and persistent threat to the general public on the other hand if criminal were to apply some arbitrary cipher to device in mostly non ciphered network the communication will at least stand out as being unusual and perhaps worthy of other means of investigation finally because there is essentially no possibility of intercepting in realtime the scrutable content of communications between stolen instruments there will exist strong motivation to record and archive all communications in the network for ex post facto scrutiny once some criminal act is discovered and the instruments involved have been identified while recording and archiving may not be feasible for wireline networks it is probably feasible across the more limited bandwidth of radio networks the existence of these recordings could open up vast potential for abuse brad yearwood brad optilink com uunet pyramid optilink brad petaluma ca xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu sample eng ohio state edu maumee butzerd from butzerd maumee eng ohio state edu dane butzer subject re once tapped your code is no good any more message id apr20 ee eng ohio state edu sender news ee eng ohio state edu organization the ohio state university dept of electrical engineering references apr18 yuma acns colostate edu pgf srl03 cacs usl edu apr20 colnet cmhnet org distribution na date tue apr gmt lines in article apr20 colnet cmhnet org res colnet cmhnet org rob stampfli writes with mail if they can break your pgp encryption they ll just call up one of their tempest trucks and read the electromagnetic emmisions from your computer or terminal note that measures to protect yourself from could independently invent about half dozen right off the top of my head if had studied advanced little better could probably come up with very good system wouldn second monitor of similar type scrolling gibberish and adjacent to the one being used provide reasonable resistance to tempest attacks actually old video games and pinball machines are supposed to work pretty good at blocking em eavesdropping too those things put out lot of em noise back in the read about computer companies putting bunches of games in their buildings for just this purpose not to mention the dane xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp org acm sci crypt comp security misc comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com network ucsd edu ucsbcsl spectrum cmc com lars from lars spectrum cmc com lars poulsen newsgroups comp org acm sci crypt comp security misc comp org ieee subject re is there any security in the clipper message id apr20 spectrum cmc com date apr gmt references zeev apr18014822 sepia ccc amdahl com organization cmc network systems rockwell dcd santa barbara ca usa lines in article zeev apr18014822 sepia ccc amdahl com zeev ccc amdahl com ze ev wurman writes it seems to me that all discussions about clipper security are almost irrelevant if cannot choose the key but have to use key chosen for me by the foundry the security of the whole universe of users is as good or as bad as the security of vlsi technologies inc or their handlers it is trivial effort to run any ciphertext agains all the keys ever manufactured after all we are talking about to million keys that will ever be manufactured the key depositories can be as secure and incorruptible as they wish to be nobody cares anyway they key depositories are irrelevant in order for the applicable law enformcement agencies to be able to know what keys to request from escrow the system will have to squawk its serial number in clear text as part of the link establishment protocol whoever owns the program that assigns keys to each serial number won need access to the key depository in other words the fbi may need court ordered release of escrowed keys but the nsa has the keys before the chip is ever manufactured there is no need to go through the escrow or to try all keys while relations between law enforment agencies have sometimes been strained there is also long history of trading favors this will re establish the nsa as very important agency for everyone to get along with because they can give you untraceable encryption leaks without court orders the more think about this affair the fouler it smells rather have des with an engineered in backdoor lars poulsen smts software engineer internet mail lars cmc com cmc network products rockwell int telephone santa barbara ca telefax path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet digex com news intercon com usenet from amanda intercon com amanda walker newsgroups sci crypt subject re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only date tue apr organization intercon systems corporation herndon va usa lines distribution world message id r1g82 rui news intercon com references c5qy3m de3 agora rain com reply to amanda intercon com amanda walker nntp posting host chaos intercon com newsreader intercon tcp connect ii jhart agora rain com jim hart writes you don care that people are being lied to fooled into believing the chip gives privacy when it fact it allows wiretaps it does give privacy just not absolute privacy the announcement was very up front about this and about allowing wiretaps how is this fooling anyone are you so smart that you know when you re talking to somebody who has wiretap chip on their phone instead of privacy chip with private keys sure the two don interoperate you couldn talk to say cylink phone from clipper phone would expect even multiprotocal phones to come with indicators saying which kind of link encryption is in use we do need an alternative to nsa bugged telephones but we re talking inexpensive telephones here including hand sized cellulars that need strong crypto real privacy so start company and build them this is still mostly capitalist economy what we need is true privacy chip for example real time voice encryption rsa put it into silicon compiler and spit out asic put this chip on the market as de facto standard for international business diplomats and private communications agree go for it amanda walker intercon systems corporation newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu csus edu netcom com tcmay from tcmay netcom com timothy may subject re text of white house announcement and as on clipper chip encryption message id tcmayc5snw8 dsf netcom com organization netcom on line communication services guest newsreader tin pl5 references ted apr20105137 lole nmsu edu distribution na date tue apr gmt lines ted dunning ted nmsu edu wrote nobody seems to have noticed that the clipper chip must have been under development for considerably longer than the months that clinton has been president this is not something that choosing choosing bush over clinton would have changed in the slightest it has been in the works for some time actually many of us have noted this we have noted that the program started at least years ago that the contracts with vlsi technology and microtoxin were let at least months ago that production of the chips is well underway and so forth nobody know has claimed clinton intitiated the program but he chose to go ahead with it tim may timothy may crypto anarchy encryption digital money tcmay netcom com anonymous networks digital pseudonyms zero knowledge reputations information markets aptos ca black markets collapse of governments higher power public key pgp and mailsafe available path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net das news harvard edu ogicse netnews nwnet net news washington edu spiff seattleu edu thebes ole ray from ray ole cdac com ray berry newsgroups sci crypt subject clipper business as usual message id apr20 ole cdac com date apr gmt article ole apr20 organization cascade design automation lines notwithstanding all the legitimate fuss about this proposal how much of change is it att last product in this area was priced over as suspect clipper phones will be came to the customer with the key automatically preregistered with government authorities thus aside from attempting to further legitimize and solidify the fed posture clipper seems to be more of the same rather than new direction yes technology will eventually drive the cost down and thereby promote more widespread use but at present the man on the street is not going to purchase crypto telephone especially when the guy on the other end probably doesn have one anyway am missing something the real question is what the gov will do in year or two when air tight voice privacy on phone line is as close as your nearest pc that has got to problematic scenario for them even if the extent of usage never surpasses the underground stature of pgp ray berry kb7ht ray ole cdac com rjberry eskimo com compuserve com xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net agate sprite berkeley edu shirriff from shirriff sprite berkeley edu ken shirriff newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee subject re once tapped your code is no good any more date apr gmt organization university of california berkeley lines distribution na message id r1gt2 fbu agate berkeley edu references tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com qpg8finn982 dns1 nmsu edu apr18 yuma acns colostate edu nntp posting host hijack berkeley edu in article apr18 yuma acns colostate edu holland cs colostate edu douglas craig holland writes with mail if they can break your pgp encryption they ll just call up one of their tempest trucks and read the electromagnetic emmisions from your computer or terminal note that measures to protect yourself from tempest surveillance are still classified as far as know note that tempest is the name of the shielding standard tempest is not the name of the surveillance technique ken shirriff shirriff sprite berkeley edu disclaimer this is what ve heard and it in the sci crypt faq so it probably true but can guarantee it like to know if wrong path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net noc near net uunet digex com news intercon com usenet from amanda intercon com amanda walker newsgroups sci crypt subject re text of white house announcement and as on clipper chip encryption date tue apr organization intercon systems corporation herndon va usa lines distribution world message id r1gmi s3c news intercon com references aa13170 pizzabox demon co uk reply to amanda intercon com amanda walker nntp posting host chaos intercon com newsreader intercon tcp connect ii gtoal gtoal com graham toal writes whatever happens though the effect of this new chip will be to make private crypto stand out like sore thumb it already does amanda walker intercon systems corporation xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt privacy clipper newsgroups sci crypt alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net agate linus linus mitre org linus mbunix eachus from eachus spectre mitre org robert eachus subject re would clipper make good cover for other encryption method in reply to kadie eff org message of tue apr gmt message id eachus apr20140314 spectre mitre org sender news linus mitre org news service nntp posting host spectre mitre org organization the mitre corp bedford ma references apr20 eff org date tue apr gmt lines in article apr20 eff org kadie eff org carl kadie writes clipper might be good way to cover the use of another layer of encryption but if you are making custom equipment in any case why not just roll your own clipper implementation and report the wrong keys to the escrow agency tells us who is going to be in the chip business if this thing goes through nsa and those with something to hide from nsa if anyone can verify that your phone is not using the key registered to that serial number either they have court ordered wiretap but what are they going to do tell the judge that this individual really does have privacy all they know is that the keys are not enough but not why they have court ordered wiretap on phone in this series this part is really scary since the expectation is that all chips in particular batch will uses seeds based on the same s1 and s2 and the serial number getting the keys for one of batch may give access to all there is backdoor which allows all messages to be deciphered without the keys find this one especially threatening since the scheme seems very open to known plaintext attacks what need to decipher is the data in the header if talk to someone who has one of these phones presumably there will be an automatically negotiated key generated not trying to decipher the record of the conversation to know what was said use it as known plaintext to recover the backdoor represented by the header but know what the header says for conversations participate in even worse if the phones in series have related keys can buy phone chip from the same production lot then can recover its keys either elegantly by talking to myself or by brute force analysis of the actual chip then apply the key generation process with those seeds to find the target keys hmmm don think want to ever come close to these phones even des is starting to look good two cans and string will provide much better security robert eachus with standard disclaimer use standard disclaimer function message text in clever ideas return better ideas is path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu noc msc net vixvax mgi com cepek from cepek vixvax mgi com newsgroups sci crypt subject tempest vs lcd was re once tapped message id apr20 vixvax mgi com date apr cdt organization management graphics inc lines douglas craig holland holland cs colostate edu writes with mail if they can break your pgp encryption they ll just call up one of their tempest trucks and read the electromagnetic emmisions from your computer or terminal note that measures to protect yourself from tempest surveillance are still classified as far as know steiner jupiter cse utoledo edu jason think steiner writes are lcd displays vulnerable to tempest can see high voltage type display devices being vulnerable crts plasma displays etc but jason beat me to this question what about em radiation from low voltage items like lcd displays perhaps the critical element is the driver circuitry the cabling what about portable pc mac etc where all the noise is bunched into one tiny area xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy clipper newsgroups sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu linac att att ulysses ulysses smb from smb research att com steven bellovin subject re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip message id apr20 ulysses att com date tue apr gmt references pgf srl03 cacs usl edu bb51156 c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu apr19 jarvis csri toronto edu apr20 magnus acs ohio state edu organization at bell laboratories lines in article apr20 magnus acs ohio state edu jebright magnus acs ohio state edu james ebright writes now why is that doubt there is trapdoor in skipjack but we will never know and doubt the nsa would promote mass market chip they couldn compromise ergo nsa is now capable of compromising probably with brute force keysearch engines of the complexity of skipjack look at the specs why bet they have thousands of little chips chugging away in their crypto busters maybe even tens of thousands complexity not much more than how many such machines will fit into fort meade think pgp2 should have bit idea keys thousands tens of thousands do some arithmetic please skipjack has possible keys let assume brute force engine like that hypothesized for des microsecond per trial million chips that trials per second or about years for trials well maybe they can get chips running at one trial per nanosecond and build machine with million chips sure only years for each solution idea uses bit keys shall bother doing the calculations for you hint multiply years by and you can do idea at that speed key setup takes much too long wouldn be surprised if that were the case for skipjack too though there no way of knowing just yet des used only xor because that what was feasible with mid technology modern chips can do lot more nsa may or may not know how to crack skipjack and idea doubt it for the former have no idea for the latter though it does seem to be strong cryptosystem but it ain gonna be by exhaustive search xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester rochester udel gatech concert fletcher kepley from kepley photon phys unca edu brad kepley subject re once tapped your code is no good any more message id apr20 cs unca edu sender news cs unca edu usenet news adm organization university of north carolina at asheville references apr17 clarinet com rwing uucp apr20 coop com distribution na date tue apr gmt lines in article apr20 coop com felixg coop com felix gallo writes pat rwing uucp pat myrto writes if the clinton clipper is so very good please note that bill clinton probably has little if anything to do with the design implementation or reasoning behind this chip or behind can we move the political bickering to more appropriate group brad kepley internet kepley photon phys unca edu work days voice xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt comp org eff talk newsgroups sci crypt comp org eff talk path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet math fu berlin de ifmsun8 ifm uni hamburg de rzsun2 informatik uni hamburg de fbihh bontchev from bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de vesselin bontchev subject re clipper considered harmful message id bontchev fbihh sender news informatik uni hamburg de mr news reply to bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de organization virus test center university of hamburg references optilink com date tue apr gmt lines brad optilink com brad yearwood writes criminals who very badly want inscrutable tactical communications specificall the terrorists and drug dealers who proponents of key escrow cite as threats will be highly motivated to steal the cipher phone of legitimate user and to kill this person or hold them hostage so discovery of compromise of the device will be delayed why doing it in such rough manner it is much more professional to steal the chip from the phone and even to replace it with pin compatible do nothing chip that does not encrypt at all chances are that the victim will not notice anything especially if it is done professionally once suitable collection of devices is stolen criminals can communicate with impunity assuming the cipher system carries no trapdoors apart from key escrow until and unless the compromise is discovered by some other means no because the feds will still be able to decrypt the conversations true they ll blame the wrong guys but nevertheless one cannot say something like the drugs arrive tommorrow on the ship terminus when the feds are listening even if they cannot identify who the speaker is no the criminals will just use some secure encryption the new proposal does not stop criminals it ensures that the government will be able to wiretap the average citizen and stops the casual snooper to me it also clearly looks as step towards outlawing any other strong encryption devices regards vesselin vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center university of hamburg tel fax fachbereich informatik agn pgp public key available on request vogt koelln strasse rm mail bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de hamburg germany newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet math fu berlin de ifmsun8 ifm uni hamburg de rzsun2 informatik uni hamburg de fbihh bontchev from bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de vesselin bontchev subject re how large are commercial keys message id bontchev fbihh sender news informatik uni hamburg de mr news reply to bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de organization virus test center university of hamburg references apr20 ee eng ohio state edu date tue apr gmt lines butzerd maumee eng ohio state edu dane butzer writes finally can anyone even concieve of time place where bit keys aren sufficient it depends on the algorithm used bit secret keys for rsa are definitively not secure enough regards vesselin vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center university of hamburg tel fax fachbereich informatik agn pgp public key available on request vogt koelln strasse rm mail bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de hamburg germany newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu lll winken llnl gov fastrac llnl gov wsrcc com wetware spunky redbrick com psinntp psinntp shearson com snark pmetzger from pmetzger snark shearson com perry metzger subject re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only message id apr20 shearson com sender news shearson com news organization partnership for an america free drug references c5qy3m de3 agora rain com almaden ibm com r0ausinni01 senator bedfellow mit edu date tue apr gmt lines jfc athena mit edu john carr writes in article almaden ibm com ameline vnet ibm com ian ameline writes also believe that someone will reverse engineer the clipper chip and knowlege of the algorithm will likely be fairly widespread the chip and algorithm are classified if you reverse engineer it and tell people you are likely to go to jail well not lawyer but from what can tell this is completely and utterly untrue you see this country has this thing called constitution if you legitimately aquire the device and you yourself are not government employee or otherwise encumbered don think they can stop you from revealing anything about the device you can determine remember the pentagon papers precedent the first amendment applies here the does not have an official secrets act we do have laws that will punish you for revealing what classified information you learned in your capacity as government official contractor etc and we have laws that prohibit stealing such information however if they sell you the chip can see that they can make reverse engineering it and revealing the details illegal perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer le monde va de lui meme path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net agate doc ic ac uk uknet pipex demon gtoal com gtoal newsgroups sci crypt from gtoal gtoal com graham toal subject re how does it really work was re text of white house announcement and as on clipper chip encryption date mon apr message id aa16183 pizzabox demon co uk sender usenet demon co uk lines from marc vanheyningen mvanheyn cs indiana edu the majority of the discussion involving this clipper chip seems to pertain to the encryption of telephone conversations does anyone know if that means this chip is designed to work primarily with analog signals the language sort of suggests this but it hard to say lay few bucks that its just data in data out in parallel suspect to make it phone you need codec and speech compression there would be loss of bandwidth on the speech signal which suspect would scupper any of the suggestions ve seen here about putting different encryption front end on it there no hint of any modulation scheme in the docs sure it purely digital chip the back end will come later but positive it won be left to the manufacturers they all have to be the same modulation scheme to make it easy for the nsa to tap them the only other possibility is that this is intended only for isdn phones puts whole new spin on effs obsession about isdn if true bwahahaha xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net agate doc ic ac uk pipex demon gtoal from graham toal gtoal gtoal com subject re once tapped your code is no good any more message id c5so84 hxv demon co uk originator gtoal pizzabox demon co uk sender news demon co uk nntp posting host pizzabox demon co uk reply to graham toal gtoal gtoal com organization cuddlehogs anonymous references tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com apr17 clarinet com rwing uucp distribution na date tue apr gmt lines in article rwing uucp pat rwing uucp pat myrto writes if the clinton clipper is so very good why not make its algrithm public so many people can exchange ideas and examine it rather than few isolated respected experts respected by whom for what perhaps certain professor who likes key banks would be one of the selected experts this does seem to expand on some ideas the person was advocating if recall how would anybody know that what the actually am completely baffled by why dorothy denning has chosen to throw away her academic respectability like this it looks to me like major career limiting move there can be very few people who know what she been saying who take her seriously any more wonder if she landed such fat fee from cooperation with the nsa in the design and propoganda stages that she doesn care any more path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net agate doc ic ac uk uknet pipex demon gtoal com gtoal newsgroups sci crypt from gtoal gtoal com graham toal subject re clipper chip date mon apr message id aa16125 pizzabox demon co uk sender usenet demon co uk lines from dan mckinnon dan mckinnon canrem com have lurked here bit lately and though some of the math is unknown to me found it interesting thought would post an article found in the saturday april toronto star clipper chip to protect privacy politics is of course dirty pool old man and here we have classic example the nsa and the administration have been working on this for long time and in parallel with the announcement to us techies we see they re hitting the press with propoganda it my bet the big magazines byte scientific american et all will be ready to run with pre written government slanted story on this in the next issue just keep us some pages spare boys we ll give you the copy in time for the presses we must get big names in the industry to write well argued pieces against this proposal can you call it that when it de facto announcement and get them into the big magazines before too much damage is done it would be well worth folks archiving all the discussions from here since the day of the announcement to keep all the arguments at our fingertips think between us we could write quite good piece now who among us carries enough clout to guarantee publication phil don parker mitch kapor path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net agate doc ic ac uk uknet pipex demon gtoal com gtoal newsgroups sci crypt from gtoal gtoal com graham toal subject re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow date mon apr message id aa16280 pizzabox demon co uk sender usenet demon co uk lines gtoal news ibmpcug co uk graham toal writes try reading between the lines david there are strong hints in there that they re angling for nren next where honestly didn see any hint sophisticated encryption technology has been used for years to protect electronic funds transfer it is now being used to protect electronic mail and computer files while encryption hint this new technology will help companies protect proprietary information protect the privacy of personal phone conversations and prevent unauthorized release of data transmitted electronically at the same time this technology preserves the the privacy of our citizens including the need to employ voice or data encryption for business purposes the ability of authorized officials to access telephone calls and data under proper court or other legal order when necessary to protect our citizens very big hint the administration is committed to working with the private sector to spur the development of national information infrastructure which will use new telecommunications and computer technologies to give americans unprecedented access to information this infrastructure of high speed networks information superhighways will transmit video images hdtv programming and huge data files as easily as today telephone system transmits voice very big hint see above since encryption technology will play an increasingly important role in that infrastructure the federal government must act quickly to develop consistent comprehensive policies regarding its use and the only conceivable meaning of applying this particular technology to computer network is that they intend it to be used in exclusion to any other means of encryption disagree if for no other reason than that there are already other standards in place besides even if they restrict encryption on the nren who cares most of the internet is commercial anyway the nren is only for geovernment and university research read the proposals it data superhighway for cray users not anything having to do with the internet oh see your point think you re wrong but if you sit back and wait to find out if right it ll be too late just listen very carefully for the first such and such will not be permitted on network xyz shoe to drop path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu wupost bigboy sbc com news mtholyoke edu jbotz from jbotz mtholyoke edu jurgen botz newsgroups sci crypt subject re the secret source of that announcement date apr gmt organization mount holyoke college lines distribution world message id r1om5 c5m slab mtholyoke edu references marc apr17211937 oliver mit edu nntp posting host orixa mtholyoke edu in article marc apr17211937 oliver mit edu marc mit edu marc horowitz n1nzu writes just who is that asked myself or rather asked the computer telnet csrc ncsl nist gov trying connected to csrc ncsl nist gov escape character is first org sendmail nist ready at sat apr edt expn clipper csspab mail gw ncsl nist gov first org closing connection connection closed well isn that interesting dorothy denning mitch kapor even more interesting the smtp server at csrc ncsl nist gov no longer recognizes the expn and vrfy commands telnet csrc ncsl nist gov smtp trying connected to csrc ncsl nist gov escape character is first org sendmail nist ready at tue apr edt expn clipper command unrecognized seems like sombody didn like your snooping around marc jurgen botz jbotz mtholyoke edu vending machines should respond to finger south hadley ma usa request with list of all items currently unix is dead long live unix available for purchase rfc1288 newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu usc sdd hp com network ucsd edu qualcom qualcomm com qualcom rdippold from rdippold qualcomm com ron asbestos dippold subject re text of white house announcement and as on clipper chip encryption message id rdippold qualcom originator rdippold qualcom qualcomm com sender news qualcomm com nntp posting host qualcom qualcomm com organization qualcomm inc san diego ca references c5l17v gh5 dove nist gov ted apr20105137 lole nmsu edu distribution na date tue apr gmt lines ted nmsu edu ted dunning writes nobody seems to have noticed that the clipper chip must have been under development for considerably longer than the months that clinton has been president this is not something that choosing choosing bush over clinton would have changed in the slightest it has been in the works for some time ve got no doubts that this would probably have gone ahead if bush was still president what puzzling to me are the people who are apparently amazed that clinton is going along with it other than that mrs lincoln how did you like the play newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech howland reston ans net usc sdd hp com nigel msen com yale edu yale cs yale edu news mail gateway daemon from grant dockmaster ncsc mil lynn grant subject another key registration body bites the dust imho message id dockmaster ncsc mil sender grant ca1 dockmaster ncsc mil organization yale cs mail news gateway date tue apr gmt lines one of the candidates that has been suggested for key registration body is the aclu think this is poor choice the aclu is essentially group of auditors they audit how people civil liberties are administered traditionally auditors do not like to get involved in the design or operational aspects of things and with good reason when was systems programmer it always infuriated me that the auditors would come in and tell us our implementation stunk from security point of view but wouldn tell us how to fix it always figured they just liked to critcize without doing the work to help fix the problem then took stint as an auditor and found out the real reason auditors don like to recommend solutions because it puts them in bad position if they have to criticize the implementation later the auditee can say well you told us this way would be ok it compromises the independence that is necessary part of the auditor job taking the case at hand suppose aclu becomes key half registrar suppose that perhaps through some error on aclu part key half gets away that shouldn and is used to deprive someone of her civil liberties the aclu gets wind of this and wants to take it to court but they end up being at the same time on the side of the defendant and of the plaintiff which is not an easy position to be in there are exceptions to the complete independence of auditors at one place where worked when payroll checks were printed they were signed automatically by signature drum on the bursting machine this drum was kept by the auditors who also kept the check stock and was brought down to data processing when it was time to do the checks believe the difference between this situation and the key registration situation is that it is fairly obvious when it is time to do the payroll checks if they were done yesterday and someone wants to do them again today he better be able to produce yesterday checks so that they can be destroyed determining which of the many requests for key halves are legit is trickier process one much more prone to mistakes that could put the aclu in protecting the client versus protecting the aclu conflict of interest as always my opinions are my own lynn grant grant dockmaster ncsc mil xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security pgp path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu lynx unm edu dns1 nmsu edu amolitor from amolitor nmsu edu andrew molitor newsgroups sci crypt alt security pgp subject re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip date apr gmt organization department of mathematics lines message id r1otuinndb2 dns1 nmsu edu references apr19 jarvis csri toronto edu apr20 magnus acs ohio state edu apr20 ulysses att com nntp posting host moink nmsu edu in article apr20 ulysses att com smb research att com steven bellovin writes responding to claims about skipjack cracking engines thousands tens of thousands do some arithmetic please skipjack has possible keys let assume brute force engine like that hypothesized for des microsecond per trial million chips that trials per second or about years for trials well maybe they can get chips running at one trial per nanosecond and build machine with million chips sure only years for each solution think should also point out that the mystical des engines are known plaintext engines unless you add ton of really smart hardware the plaintext is digitized voice and exists for very short time probably in couple inches of copper tops it flatly not available your bug in my office can hear my voice and even digitize it but it going to get different bitstream it is horribly naive to suppose that regular folks can figure out how to crack skipjack or clipper based telephones certainly not devoting great deal of thought to it andrew molitor xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt comp org eff talk newsgroups sci crypt comp org eff talk alt law enforcement path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu ames kronos arc nasa gov hanson from hanson kronos arc nasa gov robin hanson subject estimating wiretap costs benefits message id apr20 kronos arc nasa gov sender usenet kronos arc nasa gov will edgington wedgingt ptolemy arc nasa gov nntp posting host jabberwock arc nasa gov organization nasa arc information sciences division date tue apr gmt lines attempting to write serious policy paper examining whether the proposed wiretap or clipper chip is cost effective tool for police investigation that is ignoring concerns about government intrusions into individual privacy is the value of easy wiretaps to investigators greater than the cost to the communications industry and their customers to support this wiretap technology rough estimate suggests that wiretaps are worth about five million dollars per year to law enforcement agencies in wiretaps led to arrests while total police expenditures of billion led to million arrests ref us statistical abstracts working on estimating this wiretap benefit more accurately but like to ask hardware experts out there to help me with estimating the costs of the new proposed wiretap technology please send me quotable citeable estimates for how many chips which would need to be made per year to keep all phones with wiretap chips how much would it cost to make each chip how much did it cost to develop this technology in the first place how much more would supporting hardware people etc cost per chip what percentage cheaper would encryption chips and support have been if private enterprise could compete to meet customer encryption needs what percentage of phone traffic would be taken up by the proposed law enforcement blocks what is the total cost of handling all phone traffic per year put another way the question asking is what if each police agency that wanted particular wiretap had to pay for it being charged their share of the full social cost of forcing communication to be wiretap compatible would they choose to buy such wiretaps or would they find it more cost effective to instead investigate crimes in other ways robin hanson hanson ptolemy arc nasa gov ms nasa ames research center moffett field ca male terrace fremont ca newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net sol ctr columbia edu destroyer gumby yale cs yale edu news mail gateway daemon from markowitz dockmaster ncsc mil subject exportability of pkzip was re rc2 message id dockmaster ncsc mil sender markowitz catwalk2 dockmaster ncsc mil organization yale cs mail news gateway date tue apr gmt lines vesselin bontchev bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de writes markowitz dockmaster ncsc mil writes it is interesting to note in this regard that permission to export pkzip encryption scheme has twice been denied by nsa draw you own conclusions uh afraid that your information is slightly out of date pkware has obtained license to export their program to the whole world except very limited list of countries draw your own conclusions about the strength of the algorithm sorry if was less than clear was referring to our own efforts to receive export permission from nsa for the pkzip encryption algorithm not to any effort on the part of phil katz or pkware should point out that the original version of this algorithm was designed by roger schlafly and that we meaning roger and myself were twice denied an export license for it the second go round was just this past fall had no knowledge of phil attempts in this do not even know for sure if he choose to implement the algorithm as it was designed by roger though believe that was at least the case for versions prior to and then there the question of key management and even if our applications were identical there is no reason to assume the nsa would treat them that way mjm michael markowitz vp markowitz dockmaster ncsc mil information security corp fax lake cook rd suite mci deerfield il cis xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security pgp path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu lynx unm edu dns1 nmsu edu amolitor from amolitor nmsu edu andrew molitor newsgroups sci crypt alt security pgp subject re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip date apr gmt organization department of mathematics lines message id r1piminndjh dns1 nmsu edu references apr20 magnus acs ohio state edu apr20 ulysses att com r1otuinndb2 dns1 nmsu edu nntp posting host moink nmsu edu in article r1otuinndb2 dns1 nmsu edu amolitor nmsu edu andrew molitor writes the plaintext is digitized voice and exists for very short time probably in couple inches of copper tops it flatly not available your bug in my office can hear my voice and even digitize it but it going to get different bitstream am an idiot the plaintext that relevant is the session key if you know that you probably don need roomful of chips do you if you were going to brute force something interesting that be the message stream which is sort of approximately known by say bug in my office then your roomful of chips could get the session key which change every morning really it just whole lot easier for the illicit wiretappers to stick bug in your phone andrew molitor xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt comp org eff talk newsgroups sci crypt comp org eff talk path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com darwin sura net sgiblab news kpc com kpc hollasch from hollasch kpc com steve hollasch subject re clipper considered harmful message id apr20 kpc com summary buckets of blood pouring from peoples heads sender usenet kpc com organization kubota pacific computer inc references optilink com date tue apr gmt lines brad optilink com brad yearwood writes if clipper comes to cellular phones along with legal proscriptions against using other cipher systems on these phones new and potentially dangerous class of crime is created criminals who very badly want inscrutable tactical communications specifically the terrorists and drug dealers who proponents of key escrow cite as threats will be highly motivated to steal the cipher phone of legitimate user and to kill this person or hold them hostage so discovery of compromise of the device will be delayed yow get some sleep brad you mean that people life is cheap terrorists drug dealing warlords who want to communicate in privacy will prefer to break into my house kill or kidnap me and steal my telephone rather than spending at mart to buy new phone purchasing load of phones from the black market flea market super market talking gasp face to face walking down to any one of millions of pay phones using messengers going to excruciating effort to think of code phrases like had blowout on the freeway today look this system does nothing to threaten folks who know they re being wiretapped since it trivial to find other avenues of communication they have no reason to resort to extreme measures since plethora of simple alternatives are easily available to them among all the legitimate reasons to damn the proposed system don think we need to worry about terrorist commie drug warlord assasin thugs murdering our families kicking the dog and leaving the toilet seat up just to steal telephone the system is more like urine testing it catches some small number of very stupid people has no effect on the bad guys with at least three neurons working in unison who wish to subvert it and penalizes most heavily those who have no cause to be subject to it steve hollasch kubota pacific computer inc hollasch kpc com santa clara california path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net bogus sura net udel news intercon com usenet from amanda intercon com amanda walker newsgroups sci crypt subject re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow date tue apr organization intercon systems corporation herndon va usa lines distribution world message id r1q24 uj news intercon com references aa16280 pizzabox demon co uk reply to amanda intercon com amanda walker nntp posting host chaos intercon com newsreader intercon tcp connect ii gtoal gtoal com graham toal writes oh see your point think you re wrong but if you sit back and wait to find out if right it ll be too late just listen very carefully for the first such and such will not be permitted on network xyz shoe to drop ve been very intent nren spectator of the nren for years as commercial ip software vendor it really is my professional opinion that the nren at this point is irrelevant to private sector networking if it had been deployed five years ago it would have been major development now however it just an upgrade to the nsfnet and an attempt to revive the lagging use of the national supercomputer centers you could cut out the nsfnet completely and the internet would continue chugging along without hiccup aside from few universities long haul networking and internet connectivity have long since ceased to be under federal sponsorship or regulation at least in the usa the success of the cix commercial internet exchange is prime example of this while our dear vp has been promoting his data superhighway the private sector has been building it without the nsfnet restrictions to illustrate connection from the machine on my desk to the machine your article was posted from pizzabox demon co uk involves only commercial ip providers until it hits amsterdam no nsfnet no nren no appropriate use restrictions it even mbps t1 until it hits the eunet gateway qed amanda walker intercon systems corporation newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu news cso uiuc edu usenet from usenet news cso uiuc edu net noise owner subject re facinating facts bit serial number possibly fixed s1 and s2 date tue apr gmt message id c5sxct j5e news cso uiuc edu references apr19 guvax acc georgetown edu pmetzger apr20065402 snark shearson com organization university of illinois urbana champaign lines the only way to view this method of generating unit keys is as back door what else can you call key deterministically generated from the serial number to generate the unit key for serial number the bit value is first padded with fixed bit block to produce bit block n1 s1 and s2 are then used as keys to triple encrypt n1 producing bit block r1 r1 n1 s1 s2 s1 similarly is padded with two other bit blocks to produce n2 and n3 and two additional bit blocks r2 and r3 are computed r2 n2 s1 s2 s1 r3 n3 s1 s2 s1 r1 r2 and r3 are then concatenated together giving bits the first bits are assigned to u1 and the second bits to u2 the rest are discarded the unit key is the xor of u1 and u2 u1 and u2 are the key parts that are separately escrowed with the two escrow agencies what happens is that the need for the escrow houses is completely eliminated or should say the need to access the escrow houses to decrypt the data the houses will still serve real purpose as far as generating the illusion of protection and small town cops won be let in on the secret so they will still go through the motions of going to the escrow houses but the fact is the federal government can and will build chip which generates the unit keys from the encrypted serial number nuff said xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net spool mu edu enterpoop mit edu senator bedfellow mit edu news mit edu warlord from warlord mit edu derek atkins newsgroups sci crypt alt privacy clipper subject re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only date apr gmt organization massachusetts institute of technology lines message id warlord apr20175546 deathtongue mit edu references c5qy3m de3 agora rain com c5rrtd gz agora rain com nntp posting host deathtongue mit edu in reply to jhart agora rain com message of tue apr gmt begin pgp signed message why do we hackers care about the clipper chip do we give shit about anybody privacy accept our own and perhaps not even our own are we so smart that we always know when we re talking to somebody who has wiretap on their phone find this very disturbing view yes we do care about everyone privacy even if they don know it what happens if the gov starts creating legislation such that the clipper and such technologies become the only legal encryption forms what happens when the clipper is the only type of encryption chips available to the masses sure you might have your own method of encryption but if you don have anyone else to talk to what use is it you can assume that everyone will be as open as you appear to be about encryption the point here is not the specific instance of the wiretap chip rather it is like having the government telling you that they want copy of your house key safe deposit box keys etc and telling you that they wont use them unless its totally neccessary sure wouldn want that why should encryption be any different derek pgp key available upon request on the key server pgp public keys toxicwaste mit edu begin pgp signature version iqbuagubk9rxvjh0k1zbsgrxaqhd8aledi3ear7remr1uhuxqv2yiblh6px6vxnb sjlcugzzxtcfxbrqif7mslp98p0evyynlzbboryvhfszyyhyheqqqilhek3lpqe ap29 od6yzrccharnrs024e ftek end pgp signature derek atkins mit electrical engineering and computer science secretary mit student information processing board sipb mit media laboratory speech research group warlord mit edu pp asel n1nwh newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu usc sol ctr columbia edu ira uka de math fu berlin de news netmbx de germany eu net mcsun uknet pipex ibmpcug exnet dcs ed ac uk pdc from pdc dcs ed ac uk paul crowley subject re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow message id c5s6i7 n0m dcs ed ac uk sender cnews dcs ed ac uk usenet news admin reply to pdc dcs ed ac uk paul crowley organization edinburgh university references jhessec5lumc ex netcom com qnupd jpm news intercon com pmetzger apr18141006 snark shearson com aohonj024n sktb demon co uk date tue apr gmt lines quoting pla sktb demon co uk in article aohonj024n sktb demon co uk you have every reason to be scared shitless take look at the records of mccarthy hoover edgar not the cleaner though they both excelled at sucking and nixon history does not record whether edgar hoover was any good at sucking as for the cleaners ll stick with my electrolux and damn the carpet paul crowley pdc dcs ed ac uk trust me know what doing fold fish for jesus xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu lynx unm edu dns1 nmsu edu amolitor from amolitor nmsu edu andrew molitor newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc subject re once tapped your code is no good any more date apr gmt organization department of mathematical sciences lines distribution na message id r1r3ninnebn dns1 nmsu edu references apr17 clarinet com rwing uucp c5so84 hxv demon co uk nntp posting host moink nmsu edu in article c5so84 hxv demon co uk graham toal gtoal gtoal com writes actually am completely baffled by why dorothy denning has chosen to throw away her academic respectability like this it looks to me like major career limiting move there can be very few people who know what she been saying who take her seriously any more actually ve been following her remarks for some time with interest also member of academia and her remarks have nothing but elevate her respectability in my eyes it remains to be seen whether you are the radical fringe or it is generally an error to assume that your beliefs are held by the majority or even sizable minority especially when you re seeing tens nay dozens of people on usenet agreeing with you andrew molitor newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net bogus sura net darwin sura net sgiblab wetware iggy gw vitalink com nocsun noc vitalink com dgr from dgr eng vitalink com daniel robinson subject re text of white house announcement and as on clipper chip encryption message id apr20 noc vitalink com sender usenet noc vitalink com usenet news admin nntp posting host rodin eng vitalink com organization vitalink communications network systems corp fremont ca references c5l17v gh5 dove nist gov bontchev fbihh apr19 afterlife ncsc mil distribution na date tue apr gmt lines in article apr19 afterlife ncsc mil rlward1 afterlife ncsc mil robert ward writes in article bontchev fbihh bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de writes and since the us constitutions guarantees the right to every american to bear arms why is not every american entitled as matter of have you read the applicable part of the constitution and interpreted it in context if not please do so before posting this misinterpretation again it refers to the right of the people to organize militia not for individuals to carry handguns grenades and assault rifles hmmm this could become flame war very quickly the text is well regulated militia when that amendment was written and approved regulated meand armed remember all of those westerns where bounty hunters were called regulators this is now an archaic usage of the word but the original intent of the amendment was about weapons not control my dan robinson xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy clipper newsgroups sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu utnut torn nott bnrgate bnr co uk demon gtoal from graham toal gtoal gtoal com subject re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip message id c5sy1z td demon co uk originator gtoal pizzabox demon co uk sender news demon co uk nntp posting host pizzabox demon co uk reply to graham toal gtoal gtoal com organization cuddlehogs anonymous references apr19 jarvis csri toronto edu apr20 magnus acs ohio state edu apr20 ulysses att com date tue apr gmt lines in article apr20 ulysses att com smb research att com steven bellovin writes thousands tens of thousands do some arithmetic please skipjack has possible keys we don yet know if all bits count anyway its looking like the keys and escrow arrangements are smoke and mirrors to cover the way the nsa can regenerate the key from the transmitted serial number path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net bogus sura net darwin sura net haven umd edu news umbc edu olson from olson umbc edu bryan olson cmsc newsgroups sci crypt subject re wh proposal from police point of view date apr organization university of maryland baltimore county campus lines sender olson umbc edu mr bryan olson cmsc distribution world message id r20f7innji2 umbc7 umbc edu references apr18 news clarkson edu nntp posting host umbc7 umbc edu auth user olson in article apr18 news clarkson edu tuinstra sunspot ece clarkson edu soe dwight tuinstra writes it might pay to start looking at what this proposal might mean to police agency it just might be bad idea for them too ok suppose the ny state police want to tap suspect phone they need warrant just like the old days but unlike the old days they now need to get two federal agencies to give them the two parts of the key now what happens if there tiff between the two escrow houses posession release of keys becomes political bargaining chit while think it is unrealistic to suppose that the federal agencies will fail to promptly comply with court order there is still good point here local law enforcement will be unable to perform wiretap without bringing in federal agencies based on the possibly incomplete understanding of the system quoted from denning only the fbi will be able to decrypt the system key encryption layer which seems to be needed even to identify what escrowed keys to request this moves great deal of law enforcement power to the federal level the reason like this point is that it may sway or even persuade people who don generally line up with the civil liberties crowd national police force is opposed by people from broad range of political viewpoints olson umbc edu xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester rochester udel news intercon com digex com digex com not for mail from steve access digex com steve brinich newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee subject re once tapped your code is no good any more date apr organization express access online communications greenbelt md usa lines distribution na message id r20js bd access digex net references qpg8finn982 dns1 nmsu edu apr18 yuma acns colostate edu pgf srl03 cacs usl edu apr20 colnet cmhnet org nntp posting host access digex net for that matter it shouldn be that difficult to design black box that gives off emr similar to monitor with gibberish on the screen xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester rochester udel darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu swrinde network ucsd edu qualcom qualcomm com qualcom rdippold from rdippold qualcomm com ron asbestos dippold subject re once tapped your code is no good any more message id rdippold qualcom originator rdippold qualcom qualcomm com sender news qualcomm com nntp posting host qualcom qualcomm com organization qualcomm inc san diego ca references tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com apr17 clarinet com rwing uucp c5so84 hxv demon co uk distribution na date tue apr gmt lines graham toal gtoal gtoal com writes actually am completely baffled by why dorothy denning has chosen to throw away her academic respectability like this it looks to me like major career limiting move there can be very few people who know what she been saying who take her seriously any more not sure it is major limiting move in the academic circles ve seen arguing for increased government intervention and management is almost always plus not the least because it usually means more high paying jobs for academics as advisors also consider that it looks like denning has some decent nsa government connections which is always plus for an academic institute that wants more government funding and work tossed their way despicable yes career limiting well the publicity probably outweighs the drawbacks and there are whole bunch of people who think the whole thing is just peachy keen if it only going to be used against drug dealers child pornographers and terrorists well it must be good truth is hard to find and harder to obscure xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt comp org eff talk path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net bogus sura net udel news intercon com digex com digex com not for mail from steve access digex com steve brinich newsgroups sci crypt comp org eff talk subject re clipper considered harmful date apr organization express access online communications greenbelt md usa lines distribution inet message id r21n2 cb access digex net references optilink com bontchev fbihh nntp posting host access digex net criminals who very badly want inscrutable tactical communications specifically the terrorists and drug dealers who proponents of key escrow cite as threats will be highly motivated to steal the cipher phone of legitimate user and to kill this person or hold them hostage so discovery of compromise of the device will be delayed why doing it in such rough manner it is much more professional to steal the chip from the phone and even to replace it with pin compatible do nothing chip that does not encrypt at all chances are that the victim will not notice anything especially if it is done professionally assuming that the bad guys can easily obtain substitute chips which don cause any noticeable effect to either the user or the person at the other end of the line if there is any significant difficulty to obtaining such chips some of the criminals will decide to fall back on the murder kidnap method once suitable collection of devices is stolen criminals can communicate with impunity assuming the cipher system carries no trapdoors apart from key escrow until and unless the compromise is discovered by some other means no because the feds will still be able to decrypt the conversations true they ll blame the wrong guys but nevertheless one cannot say something like the drugs arrive tommorrow on the ship terminus when the feds are listening even if they cannot identify who the speaker is this assumes that the feds are tapping clipper phones belonging to ordinary citizens getting such phone is the whole point of the crime under discussion to be sure wouldn put it past them but raising the possibility of such crime has the benefit of forcing the feds to either fess up about such intentions in advance or state that using clipper exposes the user to an additional criminal threat no the criminals will just use some secure encryption the new proposal does not stop criminals it ensures that the government will be able to wiretap the average citizen and stops the casual snooper to me it also clearly looks as step towards outlawing any other strong encryption devices agreed path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net bogus sura net udel news intercon com usenet from amanda intercon com amanda walker newsgroups sci crypt subject re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow date tue apr organization intercon systems corporation herndon va usa lines distribution world message id r22me vi news intercon com references c5s6i7 n0m dcs ed ac uk reply to amanda intercon com amanda walker nntp posting host chaos intercon com newsreader intercon tcp connect ii pdc dcs ed ac uk paul crowley writes as for the cleaners ll stick with my electrolux and damn the carpet nah nothing sucks like vax amanda walker intercon systems corporation xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net bogus sura net udel news intercon com digex com digex com not for mail from steve access digex com steve brinich newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee subject re once tapped your code is no good any more date apr organization express access online communications greenbelt md usa lines distribution na message id r21t1 mc access digex net references tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com apr17 clarinet com rwing uucp c5so84 hxv demon co uk nntp posting host access digex net wonder if she landed such fat fee from cooperation with the nsa in the design and propoganda stages that she doesn care any more which is to say is the nsa totally perfidious or does it at least have the redeeming virtue of taking care of its own xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt comp org eff talk newsgroups sci crypt comp org eff talk alt law enforcement path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net agate news ossi com news fai com amdahl netcomsv netcom com rlglende from rlglende netcom com robert lewis glendenning subject re estimating wiretap costs benefits message id rlglendec5t133 en3 netcom com organization netcom online communication services guest references apr20 kronos arc nasa gov date tue apr gmt lines in article apr20 kronos arc nasa gov hanson kronos arc nasa gov robin hanson writes attempting to write serious policy paper examining whether the proposed wiretap or clipper chip is cost effective tool for police investigation that is ignoring concerns about government intrusions into individual privacy is the value of easy wiretaps to investigators greater than the cost to the communications industry and their customers to support this wiretap technology rough estimate suggests that wiretaps are worth about five million dollars per year to law enforcement agencies in wiretaps led to arrests while total police expenditures of billion led to million arrests ref us statistical abstracts working on estimating this wiretap benefit more accurately but like to ask hardware experts out there to help me with estimating the costs of the new proposed wiretap technology please send me quotable citeable estimates for how many chips which would need to be made per year to keep all phones with wiretap chips how much would it cost to make each chip how much did it cost to develop this technology in the first place how much more would supporting hardware people etc cost per chip what percentage cheaper would encryption chips and support have been if private enterprise could compete to meet customer encryption needs what percentage of phone traffic would be taken up by the proposed law enforcement blocks what is the total cost of handling all phone traffic per year put another way the question asking is what if each police agency that wanted particular wiretap had to pay for it being charged their share of the full social cost of forcing communication to be wiretap compatible would they choose to buy such wiretaps or would they find it more cost effective to instead investigate crimes in other ways robin hanson hanson ptolemy arc nasa gov ms nasa ames research center moffett field ca male terrace fremont ca first what the fuck is nasa doing wasting my tax dollars doing policy papers on stuff far outside of their purvew mission second this isn problem of economics this is problem of the incremental accumulation of police state powers by our government how exactly do you put price on the loss of freedom of society maybe use the dollars life lost calculations for the extra people killed by the gov the pain and suffering cases for those tortured the dollars life lost caused by the inevitable collapse of the economy and all the secondary effects of diseases diet etc plus the inevitable collapse of the economy as the gov controls it becomes corrupt etc do us favor resign rather than right this paper for nasa go do useful work for the society lew lew glendenning rlglende netcom com perspective is worth iq points niels bohr or somebody like that path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu not for mail from boucher csl sri com peter boucher newsgroups sci crypt subject pseudo random character generators large state date apr organization utexas mail to news gateway lines sender daemon cs utexas edu message id aa19100 lorax csl sri com nntp posting host cs utexas edu here are four pseudo random character generators based on irreducible trinomials each contains separate trinomials one of which is selected on initialization there are distinct trinomials between the prcgs the prcgs are initialized with bit seed and bit trinomial selector would like to get comments on these by anyone who is interested enough to look them over please email because our news is on the fritz note that this was posted via email peter boucher boucher csl sri com clip clip begin rnd tar yv0 mr0b j7 bph bbh ab lb c1l4 vs4b si c6v bqi jtj c2 j71kq ma0h0 bp jt h1ripr gc z9 m3 pp bo9 ls rx a4xb x0 bt20 bk b089 c485 a6 l9 dy fv msf salv lsmrn mo k7 dl v5zy v1 vyep gp qm9 ap t3w mjx9 d889 q8f bik uqw tw m968 iaap8hu11qmut8 a821 aqs6 b8 hal e1af630 qd pj maa hqfz6c ou5 vm qa xpf m6y er wtjo x9l9dea pz bd q0 bw1 mhhv6 j4lts jj unfg ld prd hjjje v1jzj npnt zq8 tv lk nrq ri l2 rwq8 lik fu nvxiinly0 zjx ijk7 ev momy3 zk sp mp sb drkj aor mjzzs eql mrr ti d4kcprfrmscc8h xpdd pwq plqd dx dsrsu o2i p9puq rs vv ik r20p mpq mqr6 qtvzv pasnu bhpj3cc niy zy m761 cb m0aql5gf nui0 j0 yx mx gogm p4m n1d xi s6 d9 vppo oke nt zqq wx8y mnm w9 b7k ct1t dz wn ucwc7bx mj h26y pi esk m4x gs yv1 wh w3x e6 icf fe z2pwr jxj ho3b9 mq a8s zysv j6q hb0nsr lx d3ediwnpqz hd2 mm z2i74hfr9 q9ign ya3ra mg j2s9it2y23 ubi fd c2 iw oir li2 nz0 wuair i8s z4mj8 rtc si rov yfj s37e js m6 ly2us cw sf kigm f0 iaj sd n63v 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de aj mw wu x1dx kv n8 x98 p88w fi7 z8t xl f8ps uk dt de68ri vdu8g xh3 k8hh n9 upij5r my k0 o4 tpf8py xq ty wf u197w6 idc5 hv af049f na61 m5f g5a lf c0 lv ai1y m0v3 v07ef ll61dh mb vv1 ea ht1 deb mef8p haa io s0 w2 ea7u fx dvawp6a ab ab fw ef1 aaf p1f jb01ka m66jkt1jo njaba fm4 p1s p0 h6o481w8h1t2 fs r6823f a5r ft hft1uvur b08 eyb dpb meb tqkp a3u xdv ha ir1 pfx r4 er7 b85 t5flannib9l yw vtb9r aa hh tg o9wl9 as awbl w6 ms vd dh7f bts w7o m1rd ze fnv qpx wiqes q9s tazc m87n ep gr gn rnp w2neuf rjys wlz xq zr y1 qd vjag wn9 g1 sl nf w7ahgludzrf9s jnt m0b wr dwuv sx gurm rc4u wv4 st vwwt gxf6 x8z mr vsn7yly ex pt wyspd qt is jswhl xm9 lf mbx j8p lpx yd e8 rf m6 hjj i6x i8 x817 k2 x4 e58 uax5r1 x5 m6sa be yn4m xf b7fxhhz8x z4lm ot mj dc ca5h b8 j4wq jfxi r927v964 eps nbjx r6 y9 ob r6 sc lf rzi9 x5 sv hg k4nu lfy7 wce ic rsvu4ay m9 xz q6 btc ry fuv2zr1 xdbg la94 z99 cf jh m2 f9f st lz up9 ztdklx pj mb qa e4 jc gv b9j j9hu n6 dacxt ph l1l if526 mg z5 r6 j6 jd lbl t4 o426 yilz r1 f6 iqpv ag 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zh6 m4 yn zjpq un tt59 yi8qr mf8 xl mv wc4 x0 xm w3 fahsy fqcb qfj jv m7u jo0 ozw0o f8 uj m4v k6ca v0 kvo b1w xg rqp n665xa ni cs lj1 kaj20 pmau ga r1f i91n qb6 gc t2n hn bx9ld mpt jr ed vqf l7e br owb mb5 dcdg lb lj r6 gbwhs uf r5 mi ivtro ej6 x41fc vv gnb3 svf8385beit2 m6e p3h f2 z6c36s dl i5 fxt9 dy mg9d jvafk ixqj kch ej vk v0rt mdad c2yc djvj3hb biih l8 xrq bhd mc rsto8 do w2pjf dcx08 sl y73 dz6zfe ja9g mh qcej9dji m3 uev mym m18 yk vmuk uc runn ei ma fj j9h8a wn mp vw3 mydb et epwv v7 z6 u8 whz x84 x3 bm2fkv4 nob rk9 mmgsxax mclwm vwx m9dr mr mqdw le ntgw hmn zo koyp p8bty i8c mv cm ycw jm x3 zwp4q p9 m0 igm p9 g3 ccq dbq b40 ua mchlb zz dszz9 ra me hyr yp s8 gzp m4 qcap0 f3p fckkatangc apvjh y5 rnr mx ta kd kb q1 bx ysv ci m6 xz0 cjcf6h br vp7j y7idi bw3k iz0 tdk mqv6wa k5eo fa6 g66ha a0l sf7 vv irgsi nr1 kk ny3 mbw1e adqe ola mpkjao w9 r5h b23j6t ot qsq mt3 ds4sau itk dp0a e1 ww wq4 h442a yf aoqw h5 end xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt comp org eff talk path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net agate sprite berkeley edu shirriff from shirriff sprite berkeley edu ken shirriff newsgroups sci crypt comp org eff talk subject re clipper considered harmful date apr gmt organization university of california berkeley lines distribution inet message id r24us oeh agate berkeley edu references optilink com nntp posting host hijack berkeley edu in article optilink com brad optilink com brad yearwood writes finally because there is essentially no possibility of intercepting in realtime the scrutable content of communications between stolen instruments there will exist strong motivation to record and archive all communications in the network for ex post facto scrutiny once some criminal act is discovered and the instruments involved have been identified it seems likely to me that that large subset of encrypted communications would be archived to tape so they could be read if sometime in the future probable cause arises and warrant is obtained can even imagine this being found legal and constitutional since nothing is actually listened to until valid warrant is issued and the keys are obtained imagine archiving all pay phone conversations so if someone turns out to be drug dealer you can listen to all their past drug deals and archive calls to from suspected mafia members potential terrorists radicals etc imagine the convenience for the police of being able to get warrant now and listening to all the calls the world trade center bombers made in the past year since archiving would be such powerful tool and so easy to do why wouldn it happen ken shirriff shirriff sprite berkeley edu newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc sdd hp com apollo hp com netnews from sommerfeld apollo hp com bill sommerfeld subject little political philosophy worth reading sender usenet apollo hp com usenet news message id sommerfeld apr20205717 blatt apollo hp com date wed apr gmt lines nntp posting host snarfblatt ch apollo hp com organization hewlett packard read this through once or twice then replace prince with government or president as appropriate and read it again from chapter xx of the prince by macchiavelli as translated by daniel donno in order to keep their lands secure some princes have disarmed their subjects others have prompted division within the cities they have subjugated some have nurtured animosities against themselves others have sought to win the approval of those they initially distrusted some have erected fortresses others have destroyed them now although it is impossible to set down definite judgements on all of these measures without considering the particular circumstances of the states where they may be employed shall nevertheless discuss them in such broad terms as the subject itself will allow to begin with there has never been case of new prince disarming his subjects indeed whenever he found them disarmed he proceeded to arm them for by arming your subjects you make their arms your own those among them who are suspicious become loyal while those who are already loyal remain so and from subjects they are transformed into partisans though you cannot arm them all nonetheless you increase your safety among those you leave unarmed by extending privileges to those you arm your different treatment of the two categories will make the latter feel obligated to you while the former will consider it proper thoat those who assume added duties and dangers should receive advantages when you disarm your subjects however you offend them by showing that either from cowardliness or from lack of faith you distrust them and either conclusion will induce them to hate you moreover since it is impossible for you to remain unarmed you would have to resort to mercenaries whose limitations have already been discussed even if such troops were good however they could never be good enough to defend you from powerful enemies and doubtful subjects therefore as have said new prince in newly acquired state has always taken measures to arm his subjects and history is full of examples proving that this is so but when prince takes posession of new state which he annexes as an addition to his original domain then he must disarm all the subjects of the new state except those who helped him to acquire it and these as time and occasion permit he must seek to render soft and weak he must arrange matters in such way that the arms of the entire state will be in the hands of soldiers who are native to his original domain and since the subject demands it will not fail to remind any prince who has acquired new state by the aid of its inhabitants that he soundly consider what induced them to assist him if the reason is not natural affection for him but rather dissatisfaction with the former government he will find it extremely difficult to keep them friendly for it will be impossible to please them if he will carefully think the matter through in the light of examples drawn from ancient and modern affairs he will understand why it is much easier to win the favor of those who were happy with their former government and hence were his enemies than to keep the favor of those who out of dissatisfaction with the former rule helped him to replace it newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu swrinde gatech ukma mont mizzou1 missouri edu c445585 from c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu john kelsey subject re how large are commercial keys message id bb61049a c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu sender news mont cs missouri edu nntp posting host mizzou1 missouri edu organization university of missouri references apr20 ee eng ohio state edu date tue apr cdt lines in article apr20 ee eng ohio state edu butzerd maumee eng ohio state edu dane butzer writes finally can anyone even concieve of time place where bit keys aren sufficient certainly can even at trillion keys second it would take about billion years to search just one billionth of that keys space it depends on the attack adding bit to the key doubles the amount of work to be done in straight brute force attack where you try every single possible key until one works processing and storage requirements for this kind of attack on bit key seem like they ought to make it effectively impossible however there may be other attacks whose difficulty is for example proportional to say sqrt or some such also long key does you little good if there is way to incrementally guess little of the key at time thanks dane john xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet boulder ucsu spot colorado edu andersom from andersom spot colorado edu marc anderson subject re once tapped your code is no good any more message id apr21 ucsu colorado edu sender news ucsu colorado edu usenet news system nntp posting host spot colorado edu organization university of colorado boulder references rwing uucp apr19 cs ucla edu rdippold qualcom distribution na date wed apr gmt lines in article rdippold qualcom rdippold qualcomm com ron asbestos dippold writes geoff ficus cs ucla edu geoffrey kuenning writes bullshit the bush administration and the career gestapo were responsible for this horror and the careerists presented it to the new presidency as fait accompli that doesn excuse clinton and gore from criticism for being so stupid as to go for it but let lay the body at the proper door to start with the final stages of denial can hardly imagine what the result would have been if the clinton administration had actually supported this plan instead of merely acquiescing with repugnance as they ve so obviously doing don believe the chip originated with the clinton administration either but the clinton administration has embraced it and brought it to fruition the date have for this is note clinton statements about encryption in the rd paragraph guess this statement doesen contradict what you said though cut here washington upi the war on drugs is about to get fresh start president clinton told delegates to the national federation of police commisioners convention in washington in the first speech on the drug issue since his innaugural clinton said that his planned escalation of the drug war would make everything so far seem so half hearted that for all practical purposes this war is only beginning now he repeatedly emphasized his view that regardless of what has been tried or who has tried it or how long they ve been trying it this is day one to me the audience at the convention whose theme is how do we spell fiscal relief interrupted clinton frequently with applause clinton program presented in the speech follows the outline given in his campaign position papers cabinet level drug czar and boot camps for first time youthful offenders he did however cover in more detail his plans for improved enforcement methods this year crime bill will have teeth not bare gums clinton said in particular his administration will place strict controls on data formats and protocols and require the registration of so called cryptographic keys in the hope of denying drug dealers the ability to communicate in secret clinton said the approach could be used for crackdowns on other forms of underground economic activity such as the deficit causing tax evaders who live in luxury at the expense of our grandchildren clinton expressed optimism that the drug war can be won because even though not everyone voted for bill clinton last november everyone did vote for candidate who shares my sense of urgency about fighting the drug menace the advocates of legalization the advocates of surrender may be very good at making noise clinton said but when the american people cast their ballots it only proved what knew all along that the advocates of surrender are nothing more than microscopic fringe xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt privacy clipper newsgroups sci crypt alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester rochester udel bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu csus edu netcom com strnlght from strnlght netcom com david sternlight subject re the escrow database message id strnlghtc5t3k6 inf netcom com organization dsi uscrpac references apr20 shearson com tcmayc5rs6n lz8 netcom com date tue apr gmt lines in article tcmayc5rs6n lz8 netcom com tcmay netcom com timothy may writes after the waco massacre and the big brother wiretap chip any tactic is fair this is pernicious nonsense david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt privacy clipper newsgroups sci crypt alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester rochester udel bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu csus edu netcom com strnlght from strnlght netcom com david sternlight subject re would clipper make good cover for other encryption method message id strnlghtc5t3nh is1 netcom com organization dsi uscrpac references apr20 eff org date tue apr gmt lines in article apr20 eff org kadie eff org carl kadie writes so don just think of replacements for clipper also think of front ends this only makes sense if the government prohibits alternative non escrowed encryption schemes otherwise why not just use the front end without clipper david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted newsgroups sci crypt from pla sktb demon co uk paul allen path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net torn nott bnrgate bnr co uk demon sktb demon co uk pla subject re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow references aa10390 pizzabox demon co uk reply to pla sktb demon co uk organization chaos lines newsreader archimedes readnews date tue apr message id aoeuej024n sktb demon co uk sender usenet demon co uk begin pgp signed message in message aa10390 pizzabox demon co uk you write the cops feds do not need to be able to get hold of your private key to listen in to cellular conversations encryption is not end to end but cellphone to base station that was true for the uk paul but fairly sure they re talking about building end to end encryption phones out of this chip it not for cellular though it certainly could be used there in the way you suggest lost the white house deathless prose when posted that what happens when you read news at home when you re rat arsed but did have bunch of follow ups going on about cellular cordless comms the original article has reappeared so the president today announced new initiative that will bring the federal government together with industry in voluntary program to improve the security and privacy of telephone communications while meeting the legitimate needs of law enforcement hmm telephone communications could indeed include end to end encryption on ordinary landlines the initiative will involve the creation of new products to accelerate the development and use of advanced and secure telecommunications networks and wireless communications links but the next paragraph says telecoms networks and wireless communications links ok it far from clear exactly what cripple what an apposite anagram will be applied to but the reason joe public wants secure comms is to stop people listening in to his cellular or cordless phones and he wouldn even be bothered about that were it not for wingnut and squidqy misfortunes yes cripple might be for end to end encyption dropping to clear when the other end doesn have cripple but then cordless to ordinary conversation would be in clear leaving the cordless end just as vulnerable as at present nope suspect that cripple will only be used on radio links ok it possible telecommunications networks could mean ordinary phone lines but betting it means the microwave links used by the telcos my apologies if wrong particularly if the turgid press release makes it clear that wrong and missed it but as far as can see it was full of obfuscation and anyone expecting end to end encryption is in for surprise imho btw graham ve posted questions to alt security pgp and not seen any replies followups from outside europe how about you have made it into everyone kill file or is there some problem paul begin pgp signature version iqcvagubk9spbmv14asak9pnaqgjbwp zokyrm0gemlyysnj8bqoh8l8qljomrbo eocclpkstavebtdcligqhnzowc6ar2k1blibpua2twnqwrgva15ogoc7xxkjj093 yb7p vwvqbxyia6zdj5zkqsdep7x6ckidvdrz5cdis onxtiothk3s3b3wjqbjcu vks8kov8gfg gvy0 end pgp signature path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu gaia ucs orst edu connected com beauty rwing pat from pat rwing uucp pat myrto newsgroups sci crypt subject re text of white house announcement and as on clipper chip encryption message id rwing uucp date apr gmt references c5l17v gh5 dove nist gov bontchev fbihh apr19 afterlife ncsc mil followup to talk politics guns distribution na organization totally unorganized lines in article apr19 afterlife ncsc mil rlward1 afterlife ncsc mil robert ward writes in article bontchev fbihh bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de writes and since the us constitutions guarantees the right to every american to bear arms why is not every american entitled as matter of have you read the applicable part of the constitution and interpreted it in context if not please do so before posting this misinterpretation again it refers to the right of the people to organize militia not for individuals to carry handguns grenades and assault rifles read it again yourself then re apply the admonition you gave to the previous poster to yourself as well the first clause is not condition it is reason for explicitly supporting the right which exists militia or not that the people have right to keep and bear arms this is not right granted by the constitution it is right presumed to exist by default the constitution mentioning right is to prevent the government from removing that right by stating very clearly the government shall not infringe mess with block limit that right remember the constitution is bunch of negative things things the government cannot do all rights etc not epxressly given to the government go to the states and the people the same people the other amendments in the bill of rights talk about since am sure you will summarily reject my interpretation am appending linguistic analysis by one far more expert than myself and you suspect am sure you will find his qualifications adequate if that isn enough can send you the senate subcommitee to the judiciary on the constitution report on the same thing there are some things in there that big brother types like biden etc must have really had to swallow hard to admit think you will find that people that seriously study the constitution and state what it means will say the same thing those who come up with new improved meanings are those who are trying to subvert the constitution for given agenda like clinton and his clinton cripple gun control people control and control control and the whole nasty mess please tell us how this person is in error won you and please back it up with some proof since am backing my assertion up with independent proof and have bunch more can provide note followups set to talk politics guns begin included article the unabridged second amendment by neil schulman if you wanted to know all about the big bang you ring up carl sagan right and if you wanted to know about desert warfare the man to call would be norman schwarzkopf no question about it but who would you call if you wanted the top expert on american usage to tell you the meaning of the second amendment to the united states constitution that was the question asked brocki editorial coordinator of the los angeles unified school district and formerly senior editor at houghton mifflin publishers who himself had been recommended to me as the foremost expert on english usage in the los angeles school system mr brocki told me to get in touch with roy copperud retired professor journalism at the university of southern california and the author of american usage and style the consensus little research lent support to brocki opinion of professor copperud expertise roy copperud was newspaper writer on major dailies for over three decades before embarking on distinguished year career teaching journalism at usc since copperud has been writing column dealing with the professional aspects of journalism for editor and publisher weekly magazine focusing on the journalism field he on the usage panel of the american heritage dictionary and merriam webster usage dictionary frequently cites him as an expert copperud fifth book on usage american usage and style the consensus has been in continuous print from van nostrand reinhold since and is the winner of the association of american publisher humanities award that sounds like an expert to me after brief telephone call to professor copperud in which introduced myself but did not give him any indication of why was interested sent the following letter am writing you to ask you for your professional opinion as an expert in english usage to analyze the text of the second amendment to the united states constitution and extract the intent from the text the text of the second amendment is well regulated militia being necessary for the security of free state the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed the debate over this amendment has been whether the first part of the sentence well regulated militia being necessary to the security of free state is restrictive clause or subordinate clause with respect to the independent clause containing the subject of the sentence the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed would request that your analysis of this sentence not take into consideration issues of political impact or public policy but be restricted entirely to linguistic analysis of its meaning and intent further since your professional analysis will likely become part of litigation regarding the consequences of the second amendment ask that whatever analysis you make be professional opinion that you would be willing to stand behind with your reputation and even be willing to testify under oath to support if necessary my letter framed several questions about the test of the second amendment then concluded realize that am asking you to take on major responsibility and task with this letter am doing so because as citizen believe it is vitally important to extract the actual meaning of the second amendment while ask that your analysis not be affected by the political importance of its results ask that you do this because of that importance after several more letters and phone calls in which we discussed terms for his doing such an analysis but in which we never discussed either of our opinions regarding the second amendment gun control or any other political subject professor copperud sent me the follow analysis into which have inserted my questions for the sake of clarity copperud the words well regulated militia being necessary to the security of free state contrary to the interpretation cited in your letter of july constitutes present participle rather than clause it is used as an adjective modifying militia which is followed by the main clause of the sentence subject the right verb shall the to keep and bear arms is asserted as an essential for maintaining militia in reply to your numbered questions schulman can the sentence be interpreted to grant the right to keep and bear arms solely to well regulated militia copperud the sentence does not restrict the right to keep and bear arms nor does it state or imply possession of the right elsewhere or by others than the people it simply makes positive statement with respect to right of the people schulman is the right of the people to keep and bear arms granted by the words of the second amendment or does the second amendment assume preexisting right of the people to keep and bear arms and merely state that such right shall not be infringed copperud the right is not granted by the amendment its existence is assumed the thrust of the sentence is that the right shall be preserved inviolate for the sake of ensuring militia schulman is the right of the people to keep and bear arms conditioned upon whether or not well regulated militia is in fact necessary to the security of free state and if that condition is not existing is the statement the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed null and void copperud no such condition is expressed or implied the right to keep and bear arms is not said by the amendment to depend on the existence of militia no condition is stated or implied as to the relation of the right to keep and bear arms and to the necessity of well regulated militia as requisite to the security of free state the right to keep and bear arms is deemed unconditional by the entire sentence schulman does the clause well regulated militia being necessary to the security of free state grant right to the government to place conditions on the right of the people to keep and bear arms or is such right deemed unconditional by the meaning of the entire sentence copperud the right is assumed to exist and to be unconditional as previously stated it is invoked here specifically for the sake of the militia schulman which of the following does the phrase well regulated militia mean well equipped well organized well drilled well educated or subject to regulations of superior authority copperud the phrase means subject to regulations of superior authority this accords with the desire of the writers for civilian control over the military schulman if at all possible would ask you to take account the changed meanings of words or usage since that sentence was written years ago but not take into account historical interpretations of the intents of the authors unless those issues can be clearly separated copperud to the best of my knowledge there has been no change in the meaning of words or in usage that would affect the meaning of the amendment if it were written today it might be put since well regulated militia is necessary tot he security of free state the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be abridged schulman as scientific control on this analysis would also appreciate it if you could compare your analysis of the text of the second amendment to the following sentence well schooled electorate being necessary to the security of free state the right of the people to keep and read books shall not be infringed my questions for the usage analysis of this sentence would be is the grammatical structure and usage of this sentence and the way the words modify each other identical to the second amendment sentence and could this sentence be interpreted to restrict the right of the people to keep and read books only to well educated electorate for example registered voters with high school diploma copperud your scientific control sentence precisely parallels the amendment in grammatical structure there is nothing in your sentence that either indicates or implies the possibility of restricted interpretation professor copperud had only one additional comment which he placed in his cover letter with well known human curiosity made some speculative efforts to decide how the material might be used but was unable to reach any conclusion so now we have been told by one of the top experts on american usage what many knew all along the constitution of the united states unconditionally protects the people right to keep and bear arms forbidding all governments formed under the constitution from abridging that right as write this the attempted coup against constitutional government in the soviet union has failed apparently because the will of the people in that part of the world to be free from capricious tyranny is stronger than the old guard desire to maintain monopoly on dictatorial power and here in the united states elected lawmakers judges and appointed officials who are pledged to defend the constitution of the united states ignore marginalize or prevaricate about the second amendment routinely american citizens are put in american prisons for carrying arms owning arms of forbidden sorts or failing to satisfy bureaucratic requirements regarding the owning and carrying of firearms all of which is an abridgement of the unconditional right of the people to keep and bear arms guaranteed by the constitution and even the american civil liberties union aclu staunch defender of the rest of the bill of rights stands by and does nothing it seems it is up to those who believe in the right to keep and bear arms to preserve that right no one else will no one else can will we beg our elected representatives not to take away our rights and continue regarding them as representing us if they do will we continue obeying judges who decide that the second amendment doesn mean what it says it means but means whatever they say it means in their orwellian doublespeak or will be simply keep and bear the arms of our choice as the constitution of the united states promises us we can and pledge that we will defend that promise with our lives our fortuned and our sacred honor by the new gun week and second amendment foundation informational reproduction of the entire article is hereby authorized provided the author the new gun week and second amendment foundation are credited all other rights reserved about the author neil schulman is the award winning author of novels endorsed by anthony burgess and nobel economist milton friedman and writer of the cbs twilight zone episode in which time traveling historian prevents the jfk assassination he also the founder and president of softserv publishing the first publishing company to distribute paperless books via personal computers and modems most recently schulman has founded the committee to enforce the second amendment cesa through which he intends to see the individual right to keep and bear arms recognized as constitutional protection equal to those afforded in the first fourth fifth ninth and fourteenth amendments end included article can you still honestly say the second is state run militia only right pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle wa if all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and am not sure about the former albert einstien path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu gaia ucs orst edu connected com beauty rwing pat from pat rwing uucp pat myrto newsgroups sci crypt subject re text of white house announcement and as on clipper chip encryption message id rwing uucp date apr gmt references bontchev fbihh apr19 afterlife ncsc mil bontchev fbihh distribution na organization totally unorganized lines in article bontchev fbihh bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de writes rlward1 afterlife ncsc mil robert ward writes and since the us constitutions guarantees the right to every american to bear arms why is not every american entitled as matter of have you read the applicable part of the constitution and interpreted it in context yes btw the appropriate amendments were posted here some time ago if not please do so before posting this misinterpretation again it refers to the right of the people to organize militia not for individual to carry handguns grenades and assault rifles it ok it ok just month ago expressed my belief that the right to have means to shoot your neighbor is not that much necessary to ensure people right to be free and got flamed by lots of american gun supporters so thought that never mind the new cripple chip is purely american problem so deal with the mess yourselves just wanted to share with you bit of my experience of living years under totalitarian regime bulgarian because thought that it might be useful to you oh well think your experiences under the bulgarian regime are highly relevant we have too many people with their heads in the sand saying it cannot happen here as our constitutional rights are being trashed every day because the government justifies doing some end run around the protections by crisis requiring drastic action it is most likely that in the future possession of secure encryption tools will be regarded as possession of terrorist and drug dealers tools and be some serious fedaral felony just like common tools are burgular tools if the police say so common computer programs even computers themselves are now hackers tools and will become terrorist tools bet on it the insights of someone who has lived throught this are very important if the us goes the way of the old soviet union and its client states as far as individual rights privacy and overall freedom are concerned the rest of the world remember new world order will not be far behind only few years please keep posting anything you find that is deficient or that threatens ones rights in this thing for example conversation between suspect and lawyer will no longer be private from big brother eavesdropping political dissent allready is very dangerous in this country all it takes is the government to decide that enough people will take one seriously then one becomes guilty of plotting to overthrow the government by illegal means the phrase illegal means is defined as whatever the government wants it to be defined as couple this with clinton pressing for smart national id card an internal passport with the added wrinkle that anything about you and your past can be put on it and you can only take the government word as to what is really on it since they will be the only ones with the means to completely read and reprogram the thing isn that nice while the feds can bust into one safe without the keys the owner knows his safe has been broken into when they break into your secure phone conversations or other stored transmitted data in the near future you have no way of knowing so accountability as to the legalities has gone out the window just like safe if they have legal cause they can get the keys from the suspect just like they can get the keys to safe or the combination from the suspect same with encryption record everything get the warrants then decode it with the keys obtained from the suspect this clinton cripple along with its natural extensions will make any priviliged communications between client and lawyer and any meaningful political dissent virtually impossible which is the general idea any propeganda about its being secure and the safeguards and all of that are just that propeganda to reassure people so they will by into this monstrosity don be suckered big brother is listening regards vesselin vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center university of hamburg tel fax fachbereich informatik agn pgp public key available on request vogt koelln strasse rm mail bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de hamburg germany pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle wa if all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and am not sure about the former albert einstien path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu gaia ucs orst edu connected com beauty rwing pat from pat rwing uucp pat myrto newsgroups sci crypt subject re an open letter to mr clinton message id rwing uucp date apr gmt references apr16 yuma acns colostate edu strnlghtc5m2cv hx netcom com bontchev fbihh organization totally unorganized lines in article bontchev fbihh bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de writes strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes here simple way to convert the clipper proposal to an unexceptionable one make it voluntary as usually you are not reading the proposal does say that it is voluntary program this doesn make it more desirable though that is you get high quality secure nsa classified technology if you agree to escrow your key otherwise you are on your own secure how do you know because nsa is trying to make you believe it trust us yeah right otherwise you are on your own how do you know that tomorrow they will not outlaw encrypring devices that don use their technology because they are promising you gee they are not doing even that read the proposal again one minor nitpick it is not proposal it is decision from their point of view it is done deal the chips are being manufactured it obviously has been budgeted the whole thing that is what is so upsetting this was all done in secret because they didn want the people to know what was going on until it is too late otherwise agree with you percent how come it always takes someone who has lived under the eastern bloc to remind us about how precious and fragile our liberties are please keep up the good work hopefully you will wake someone up regards vesselin vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center university of hamburg tel fax fachbereich informatik agn pgp public key available on request vogt koelln strasse rm mail bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de hamburg germany pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle wa if all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and am not sure about the former albert einstien xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt privacy clipper newsgroups sci crypt alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu csus edu netcom com strnlght from strnlght netcom com david sternlight subject re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only message id strnlghtc5t4d6 jn8 netcom com organization dsi uscrpac references c5qy3m de3 agora rain com c5rrtd gz agora rain com date wed apr gmt lines in article c5rrtd gz agora rain com jhart agora rain com jim hart writes what we need is true privacy chip for example real time voice encryption rsa silicon compile it and spit out asic put this chip on the market as de facto standard for international business diplomats and private communications if the bans it we make it somewhere else and import it the japanese german dutch taiwanese korean etc electronics companies don want the nsa spying on them workers lose more jobs to government fascist stupidity some countries have laws about importing crypto gear believe the does without license the above scheme won work at least not legally in such countries including at least france and the david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt privacy clipper newsgroups sci crypt alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net agate news ossi com news fai com amdahl netcomsv netcom com strnlght from strnlght netcom com david sternlight subject re would clipper make good cover for other encryption method message id strnlghtc5t42t j9b netcom com organization dsi uscrpac references apr20 eff org eachus apr20140314 spectre mitre org date wed apr gmt lines in article eachus apr20140314 spectre mitre org eachus spectre mitre org robert eachus writes but if you are making custom equipment in any case why not just roll your own clipper implementation and report the wrong keys to the escrow agency tells us who is going to be in the chip business if this thing goes through nsa and those with something to hide from nsa this won work if there is checksum on the keys you don know about neither will registering clipper chip and then substituting counterfeit one if the serial number contains checksum chances are the government has thought of this and just anyone won be permitted access to enough of the internals to make fake clipper chip chances are that the government has classified some details of the internals at very high level and manufacturers are required to observe security safeguards and clearances corresponding to that level while not perfect it would prevent joe hacker from rolling his own spoofing chip since not many counterfeiters can survive background investigation some of the more notorious self styled dissidents here for example have already got their heads so high above the tall grass that they have little chance of getting clearance of course it not impossible that someone do this but probably extremely difficult chances are there will also be very heavy criminal penalties for phony clipper chips on some national security classified info grounds or other thus making the game not worth the candle david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt privacy clipper newsgroups sci crypt alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu csus edu netcom com strnlght from strnlght netcom com david sternlight subject re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only message id strnlghtc5t4o3 k5p netcom com organization dsi uscrpac references c5qy3m de3 agora rain com c5rrtd gz agora rain com warlord apr20175546 deathtongue mit edu date wed apr gmt lines in article warlord apr20175546 deathtongue mit edu warlord mit edu derek atkins writes the point here is not the specific instance of the wiretap chip rather it is like having the government telling you that they want copy of your house key safe deposit box keys etc and telling you that they wont use them unless its totally neccessary sure wouldn want that why should encryption be any different actually the govrnment is telling you that if you want to use their product the manufacturer actually better yet some trusted pair of escrow agencies has to have the key most of us already are in this situation our car makers have keys to our cars or can get them quickly from the vin number and have no doubt that if presented with court order they surrender copies to the government chances are that many locksmiths have the code numbers for house locks they ve installed and in an emergency can cut keys thus they also provide such keys to the government pursuant to court order the state has no difficulty gaining access to your safe deposit box if they have court order bad analogy this is not to argue for or against the proposal but rather better distinctions are required in thinking about it than house key safe deposit keys etc david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp org eff talk alt privacy clipper sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net das news harvard edu husc news harvard edu zariski kubo newsgroups comp org eff talk alt privacy clipper sci crypt subject organized lobbying for cryptography message id apr20 husc3 harvard edu from kubo zariski harvard edu tal kubo date apr edt references apr2003 silverton berkeley edu organization dept of math harvard univ nntp posting host zariski harvard edu lines in article apr2003 silverton berkeley edu djb silverton berkeley edu bernstein writes want to see an organization which will combat such statements encryption does not threaten the public safety any more than ski masks do every american is entitled to use strong encryption which ensures his own privacy and is not crippled by key escrow system guess looking for league for cryptographic freedom or national cryptography association an excellent idea to what extent does the eff serve this purpose is new organization necessary does it already exist while don know the full scope of the activities of the eff from what little ve seen think it would be better to lobby for strong cryptography through distinct organization the eff has been associated with efforts to prevent the banning of sex and pictures newsgroups at various universities horror stories about the contents of those groups exploitative pictures of possibly underaged models have already surfaced in the press the white house bulletin already raised the specter of drug dealing and terrorism which is only one step removed from the old crypto wielding child molester argument an eff lobbying effort for cryptography would be too easily derailed by the connection to child pornography and the like similarly lpf is connected with stallman and his gnu project in light of say the gnu manifesto this means that in public debate it stands to be labelled as communist anarchist hackers radical etc don know about cpsr but if it is an offshoot of physicians for social responsibility best known for helen caldicott and her hysterical antinuclear lobbying then it probably also carries unwelcome political baggage perhaps for practical reasons lobbying organization for cryptography would best be formed under the umbrella of eff or some other existing group but its charter should then be distinct independent and limited to advocacy for the right to cryptography to reiterate dan bernstein question does any suitable organization exist if not what are you going to do about it having mentioned the possible dangers of unwelcome political associations would be remiss not to suggest something in the opposite direction gathering the support of the nra by emphasizing the rkba side of the issue as well as the first amendment side tal kubo math harvard edu newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet shearson com snark pmetzger from pmetzger snark shearson com perry metzger subject re do we need the clipper for cheap security message id apr21 shearson com sender news shearson com news organization partnership for an america free drug references aa10506 pizzabox demon co uk date wed apr gmt lines gtoal gtoal com graham toal writes in the uk it impossible to get approval to attach any crypto device to the phone network anything that plugs in to our bt phone sockets must be approved for some reason crypto devices just never are whats the difference between bis modem and bis modem not being entirely silly here what pointing out is that the modems that they have already approved for data transmission will work just fine to transmit scrambled vocoded voice perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer le monde va de lui meme newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu linac uchinews quads smk5 from smk5 quads uchicago edu steve kramarsky subject re hard drive security for fbi targets message id apr21 midway uchicago edu keywords cooperation sender news uchinews uchicago edu news system reply to smk5 midway uchicago edu organization university of chicago references c4ukkz g6 telebit com bu edu apr13 yuma acns colostate edu date wed apr gmt lines in article apr13 yuma acns colostate edu holland cs colostate edu douglas craig holland writes not lawyer so correct me if wrong but doing that could be considered obstruction of justice which could land you in prison for quite while the thing that great about the secret key is it is idea encrypted so even if the fbi do get the key they re sol unless they know the magic word if they try to force you to give them your pass phrase just say oops forgot since the burden of proof is still on the prosecution in this country if you keep your mouth shut how can they prove that you didn forget your pass phrase ok doug is right it would be obstruction of justice blah blah blah but saying forgot is lie which is just as bad from moral point of view if you think lawfulness is good in and of itself which admittedly most people do not but there an even better way out of this provided the government is prosecuting you criminally you can probably plead the fifth amendmeent and thus legally avoid revealing your key the government cannot demand information from criminal defendant which may tend to incriminate that defendant though this has never been applied in the cryptography context at least as far as can tell it seems an obvious application to me this may be common suggestion in this group but if it not new here love to hear what people have to say about it since don really read this group and since the subject matter is more legal than cryptoid maybe misc legal computing would be an appropriate place steve steve kramarsky university of chicago law school steve faerie chi il us or smk5 quads uchicago edu all did was kiss girl jake the night before his hanging xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu darwin sura net mojo eng umd edu tedwards from tedwards eng umd edu thomas grant edwards newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc subject re once tapped your code is no good any more date apr gmt organization project glue university of maryland college park lines distribution na message id r28rsinnclb mojo eng umd edu references rwing uucp c5so84 hxv demon co uk r1r3ninnebn dns1 nmsu edu nntp posting host pipa src umd edu in article r1r3ninnebn dns1 nmsu edu amolitor nmsu edu andrew molitor writes in article c5so84 hxv demon co uk graham toal gtoal gtoal com writes actually am completely baffled by why dorothy denning has chosen to throw away her academic respectability like this actually ve been following her remarks for some time with interest also member of academia and her remarks have nothing but elevate her respectability in my eyes it remains to be seen whether you are the radical fringe or it is generally an error to assume that your beliefs are held by the majority or even sizable minority especially when you re seeing tens nay dozens of people on usenet agreeing with you the people on usenet are clearly special bunch we live the net which is the future of our culture usenetters have rapid electronic access to information society in general must depend on cnn can only hope we can make this information accessable by the public before the radical fringe which is the majority destroys the fabric of this country freedom is never easily won thomas newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu msuinfo uchinews quads smk5 from smk5 quads uchicago edu steve kramarsky subject re keeping your mouth shut was hard drive security message id apr21 midway uchicago edu keywords cooperation sender news uchinews uchicago edu news system reply to smk5 midway uchicago edu organization university of chicago references apr13 cadkey com apr13 magnus acs ohio state edu apr14 qualcomm com date wed apr gmt lines in article apr14 qualcomm com karn servo qualcomm com phil karn writes say in theory because in another case woman was held in contempt for refusing to reveal the location of her child even after taking the th in this case the woman was suspected of having murdered the kid so taking the th wasn surprising sure so she was probably guilty but that not good enough in our system you re not supposed to be able to force suspect to confess to crime no matter how strongly you think they re guilty you have to develop your evidence independently doing otherwise might catch few more crooks but only at the cost of turning the clock back to the middle ages when confessions were routinely tortured out of suspects both guilty and innocent ok should have read the thread before posting my own would just add to phil very infomative discussion the following caveat the fifth amendment applies only in crinial cases nor shall any person be compelled in any criminal case to be witness against himself thus if the father sued for custody of the children the case would be civil and the defendant mother would not have fifth amendment protection oddly enough her refusal to give information in civil case can lead to criminal contempt charges thus landing her in jail the interesting part of all this is that in murder trial the woman can plead the fifth as to the location of the child this is routine computer crime prosecution thus would seem to be fertile ground for this kind of defense where suit by party injured by hackers would not if am accused for example of sending encrypted kiddie porn over the nets the fifth should protect my key if am accused of sending copyrighted material however it proabably will not copyright infringement not being crime in the technical sense the really tricky question is say do both naughty boy that am can the government use the information gained in the civil trial ie my key to gain access to my files for use in the criminal prosecution the answer should certainly be no but lord only knows how this would work out steve steve kramarsky university of chicago law school steve faerie chi il us or smk5 quads uchicago edu all did was kiss girl jake the night before his hanging path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu bgsuvax uoft02 utoledo edu jupiter steiner newsgroups sci crypt subject re don fight clipper chip subvert or replace it message id apr20 uoft02 utoledo edu from steiner jupiter cse utoledo edu jason think steiner date apr est references dn5 tanda isis org distribution na nntp posting host jupiter cse utoledo edu newsreader tin version pl9 lines marc thibault marc tanda isis org writes the jester writes proof windows is virus it is very widespread it eats up your disk space it slows down your computer it takes control over your computer it performs disk access at random times it displays silly messages on your screen it randomly crashes the computer vesselin this sounds like version unix solaris as someone who just lived through switch from sunos4 to solaris ll heartily agree with this obcrypt one of my main gripes with solaris is its braindead mailx which is almost enough like mail to get you hoping but crashes horribly when you try to do anything useful with it like use pgp capable sendmail replacements jason stood up on my van yelled excuse me sir ain nothing wrong with this country that few plastic explosives won cure steve taylor blew up the clinic real good steiner jupiter cse utoledo edu newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov ncar uchinews quads smk5 from smk5 quads uchicago edu steve kramarsky subject re fifth amendment and passwords message id apr21 midway uchicago edu sender news uchinews uchicago edu news system reply to smk5 midway uchicago edu organization university of chicago references c5jzsz jzo cs uiuc edu apr16 linus mitre org apr17 sugra uucp date wed apr gmt lines in article apr17 sugra uucp ken sugra uucp kenneth ng writes in article apr16 linus mitre org ptrei bistromath mitre org peter trei writes judge grant you immunity from whatever may be learned from the key itself you the keyphrase is confess to deliberately evading copyright the file encoded with this keyphrase contains illegal scans of copyrighted peanuts strips can we use murder instead of copyright violation just to keep things straight the th applies only to criminal cases which copyright infringements are not they are civil steve sorry to waste bandwidth on quibble just don want anyone to get confused think bunch of kiddie porn gifs make better test case than bunch of peanuts strips and that is criminal both in posession and distribution steve kramarsky university of chicago law school steve faerie chi il us or smk5 quads uchicago edu all did was kiss girl jake the night before his hanging xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp org eff talk alt privacy clipper sci crypt newsgroups comp org eff talk alt privacy clipper sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu ux1 cso uiuc edu cs uiuc edu kadie from kadie cs uiuc edu carl kadie subject re organized lobbying for cryptography message id c5tbpd lt cs uiuc edu organization university of illinois dept of comp sci urbana il references apr2003 silverton berkeley edu apr20 husc3 harvard edu date wed apr gmt lines kubo zariski harvard edu tal kubo writes the eff has been associated with efforts to prevent the banning of sex and pictures newsgroups at various universities so what justices william brennan thurgood marshall john paul stevens and byron white are associated with plurality supreme court decision that prevented the removal of anti american anti christian anti semitic and just plain filthy books from public high school library board of education pico does this mean that they could no longer defend free expression and privacy carl carl kadie do not represent any organization this is just me kadie cs uiuc edu xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt comp org eff talk newsgroups sci crypt comp org eff talk alt law enforcement path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu moe ksu ksu edu hobbes physics uiowa edu news uiowa edu news weeg uiowa edu holthaus from holthaus news weeg uiowa edu james holthaus subject re estimating wiretap costs benefits message id apr21 news weeg uiowa edu organization university of iowa iowa city ia usa references apr20 kronos arc nasa gov rlglendec5t133 en3 netcom com date wed apr gmt lines rlglende netcom com robert lewis glendenning writes in article apr20 kronos arc nasa gov hanson kronos arc nasa gov robin hanson writes attempting to write serious policy paper examining whether the proposed wiretap or clipper chip is cost effective tool for police investigation that is ignoring concerns about government intrusions into individual privacy is the value of easy wiretaps to investigators greater than the cost to the communications industry and their customers to support this wiretap technology first what the fuck is nasa doing wasting my tax dollars doing policy papers on stuff far outside of their purvew mission do us favor resign rather than right this paper for nasa go do useful work for the society whew take it easy on the guy maybe he going to do this in his spare time maybe he going to do this to see how much wiretap really costs maybe he going to do this so he can add to the opposition to clipper don know fully why he might do this but maybe we shouldn start flaming at the drop of hat james holthaus james holthaus uiowa edu government is an association of men who do violence to the rest of us leo tolstoy pgp public key available on request or from key server xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net ira uka de math fu berlin de ifmsun8 ifm uni hamburg de rzsun2 informatik uni hamburg de fbihh bontchev from bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de vesselin bontchev subject re text of white house announcement and as on clipper chip encryption message id bontchev fbihh sender news informatik uni hamburg de mr news reply to bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de organization virus test center university of hamburg references apr16 leland stanford edu apr18 monu6 cc monash edu au q5 rusnews w165w mantis co uk date wed apr gmt lines mathew mathew mantis co uk writes bena dec05 cs monash edu au ben aveling writes don forget you are in the country that wouldn let the russians buy apple ii because of security concerns that nothing they wouldn let the british buy inmos transputer systems because of security concerns and we designed the damn things funny we had plenty of them in bulgaria regardless of the embargo so much for export controls regards vesselin vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center university of hamburg tel fax fachbereich informatik agn pgp public key available on request vogt koelln strasse rm mail bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de hamburg germany newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu moe ksu ksu edu hobbes physics uiowa edu news uiowa edu news weeg uiowa edu holthaus from holthaus news weeg uiowa edu james holthaus subject cryptology in the world message id apr21 news weeg uiowa edu keywords cryptology international restrictions organization university of iowa iowa city ia usa date wed apr gmt lines what is the status of cruptology for private citizens throughout the world or more clearly is there listing of countries and their policies on citizens encrypting electronic data curious how the europeans handle this for instance james holthaus james holthaus uiowa edu government is an association of men who do violence to the rest of us leo tolstoy pgp public key available on request or from key server xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp org eff talk alt privacy clipper sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net noc near net transfer stratus com coyoacan sw stratus com tarl from tarl coyoacan sw stratus com tarl neustaedter newsgroups comp org eff talk alt privacy clipper sci crypt subject re organized lobbying for cryptography date apr gmt organization stratus computer software engineering lines distribution inet message id r2gb5 h0r transfer stratus com references apr2003 silverton berkeley edu apr20 husc3 harvard edu c5tbpd lt cs uiuc edu nntp posting host coyoacan sw stratus com in article c5tbpd lt cs uiuc edu kadie cs uiuc edu carl kadie writes the eff has been associated with efforts to prevent the banning of sex and pictures newsgroups at various universities so what justices william brennan thurgood marshall john paul stevens and byron white are associated with it means that the eff public stance is complicated with issues irrelevant to the encryption issue per se there may well be people who care about the encryption issue who don care to associate themselves with the network erotica issue or may even disagree with the eff position ending up with pallets of baggage to drag around is frequent problem with permanent organizations eff is no exception tarl path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu ames network ucsd edu munnari oz au ariel ucs unimelb edu au ucsvc ucs unimelb edu au lugb news newsgroups sci crypt subject looking for ms dos crypto programs message id apr21 lugb latrobe edu au from extdsm lure latrobe edu au maddison david date wed apr gmt sender news lugb latrobe edu au usenet news system organization la trobe university news reader vms news lines am new reader of sci crypt would like to obtain copy of public domain program that can encrypt files preferably using des that runs under ms dos would also like to obtain program which will password protect floppy disks if this is possible thanks david maddison melbourne australia xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp programming sci math sci crypt newsgroups comp programming sci math sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech howland reston ans net bogus sura net darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet utcsri utnut torn newshub ccs yorku ca newshub ccs yorku ca oz from oz ursa sis yorku ca ozan yigit subject re list of large integer arithmetic packages in reply to mrr scss3 cl msu edu message of apr gmt message id oz apr21001611 ursa sis yorku ca sender news newshub ccs yorku ca usenet news system organization york student information systems project references r19e7 jkr msuinfo cl msu edu date wed apr gmt lines mark riordan writes list of large integer arithmetic packages elided thought would note that except lenstra packages none of the large integer packages are in the public domain as an alternative straightforward pd implementation of knuth algorithms may be found as part of uof arizona icon distribution oz with diligence it is possible to make electric oz sis yorku ca anything run slowly tom duff ph xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy clipper newsgroups sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com nigel msen com hela iti org lokkur scs from scs lokkur dexter mi us steve simmons subject re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip message id apr21 lokkur dexter mi us organization inland sea references pgf srl03 cacs usl edu bb51156 c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu apr19 jarvis csri toronto edu apr20 magnus acs ohio state edu apr20 ulysses att com date wed apr gmt lines smb research att com steven bellovin writes thousands tens of thousands do some arithmetic please skipjack has possible keys let assume brute force engine like that hypothesized for des microsecond per trial million chips that trials per second or about years for trials well maybe they can get chips running at one trial per nanosecond and build machine with million chips sure only years for each solution normally be the last to argue with steve but shouldn that read years for all solutions mean if we can imagine the machine that does trial nanosecond we can imagine the storage medium that could index and archive it shadwell hated all southerners and by inference was standing at the north pole good omens by neil gaiman and terry pratchett xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp org eff talk sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net bogus sura net udel news intercon com usenet from amanda intercon com amanda walker newsgroups comp org eff talk sci crypt subject re clipper considered harmful date wed apr organization intercon systems corporation herndon va usa lines distribution world message id r2jn2 news intercon com references r24us oeh agate berkeley edu reply to amanda intercon com amanda walker nntp posting host chaos intercon com newsreader intercon tcp connect ii shirriff sprite berkeley edu ken shirriff writes since archiving would be such powerful tool and so easy to do why wouldn it happen not enough magtape seriously do you have any idea how much traffic flows through the us phone system in single day amanda walker intercon systems corporation path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu ub clarkson signal ece clarkson edu tuinstra from tuinstra signal ece clarkson edu soe dwight tuinstra newsgroups sci crypt subject clipper will corrupt cops was wh proposal from police point of view message id apr21 news clarkson edu date apr gmt references bontchev fbihh sender news news clarkson edu reply to tuinstra signal ece clarkson edu soe organization sun microsystems inc lines nntp posting host signal ece clarkson edu in article fbihh bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de vesselin bontchev writes strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes dwight tuinstra posts very interesting message in which he comments on the effects of the clipper chip on state and local police actually reading between the lines it could be very good thing for civil liberties in one respect since it will at least prevent cowboy cops and cowboy state and local agancies from reading your traffic if they tap it illegally instead of reading between the lines try to think little bit ok if that way too difficult to you here are some hints indeed the new proposal imposes some additional burocratic burden on the local police if they badly want to tape the magic cookie recipie that your mom is telling you on the phone so guess what they will do propose that the new technology is removed or implement some facilitations of course you won want to wait until they get the approval from two different agencies to decrypt the conversation between two child molesters because meanwhile those two child molesters might be conspiring about molesting your child right so there should be some way for them to get access to those keys quickly right like they could have copy of the database and worry about warrant later perhaps should have been clearer and more concise in my post but that what get from posting at am the central point made is that local state police agencies attempting to play by the rules and get warrants legit escrowed keys etc may find themselves at the mercy of bureaucratic inertia and agency infighting at the federal level disagree that this would assist civil liberties by hobbling the cowboy cops it would be strong incentive as vesselin points out for more police agencies to go rogue and try to get keys through more efficient but less constitutional means notice what the release said suppose law enforcement agency is conducting wiretap on drug smuggling ring and intercepts conversation encrypted using the device what would they have to do to decipher the message they would have to obtain legal authorization normally court order to do the wiretap in the first place the clear implication is that there are legal authorizations other than court order just how leaky are these and who knows what in those pages that authorized the nsa there may well arise black market of sorts within police agencies in which keys are traded furthermore the police will be in an excellent position to carry out this kind of thing without being caught they already have communication infrastructure with secure portions there are few laws that know of that limit citizens rights to access police communications or use the information they get it may be very difficult to prove police misuse the fact that you have such evidence may itself be evidence that you have broken some other law throw in private detectives who have even fewer policy constitutional restrictions also consider mercenaries who ve retired from intelligence agencies william gibson must be loving it great story material don think it ll happen well consider the michigan state police generally very professional organization which for years kept red files on thousands of suspected commies knowing full well it was not consititutional the standards of evidence were just about zero people were in the file because they happened to park near place where say us china people friendship rally was happening the police went around writing down license plate numbers if you happened to be visiting friend who lived near the meeting place well the state police wound up filing you as subversive they were eventually found out and court ruled against carrying on any more such nonsense believe thay may have had to destroy the tapes as well even with well meaning cops and sure there are many there will be strong pressure to bend the constitutional safeguards we don need to assume corrupt or unbalanced officers it will all be in the interest of enforcing sensible laws saving lives and protecting property compromises will be made by well meaning officers facing what to them will be moral dilemma clipper will make criminals out of cops do we want to do this to our police forces dwight tuinstra best tuinstra sandman ece clarkson edu tolerable tuinstrd craft camp clarkson edu homo sapiens planetary cancer news at six path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech swrinde elroy jpl nasa gov news claremont edu ucivax news service uci edu beckman com dsg4 dse beckman com rubin newsgroups sci crypt subject re once tapped your code is no good any more message id rubin dsg4 dse beckman com from rubin dsg4 dse beckman com arthur rubin date apr gmt references bu edu strnlghtc5nrhw qb netcom com rubin dsg4 dse beckman com apr20 magnus acs ohio state edu distribution na organization beckman instruments inc nntp posting host dsg4 dse beckman com lines in apr20 magnus acs ohio state edu jebright magnus acs ohio state edu james ebright writes in article rubin dsg4 dse beckman com arthur rubin writes wouldn trust the nsa think would trust the president on this but not certain he would be told am not crook president richard nixon this president and could easily be wrong arthur rubin rubin dsg4 dse beckman com work beckman instruments brea mcimail com compuserve com arthur pnet01 cts com personal my opinions are my own and do not represent those of my employer xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu usc enterpoop mit edu senator bedfellow mit edu news mit edu warlord from warlord mit edu derek atkins newsgroups sci crypt alt privacy clipper subject re would clipper make good cover for other encryption method date apr gmt organization massachusetts institute of technology lines message id warlord apr21020732 deathtongue mit edu references apr20 eff org strnlghtc5t3nh is1 netcom com nntp posting host deathtongue mit edu in reply to strnlght netcom com message of tue apr gmt begin pgp signed message in article strnlghtc5t3nh is1 netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes in article apr20 eff org kadie eff org carl kadie writes so don just think of replacements for clipper also think of front ends this only makes sense if the government prohibits alternative non escrowed encryption schemes otherwise why not just use the front end without clipper david david they the gov have already said that they hope to do this in the long run derek pgp key available upon request on the key server pgp public keys toxicwaste mit edu begin pgp signature version iqbuagubk9tkndh0k1zbsgrxaqeaqglfefnh9hlhyovhuwr5rwd9y mbrxkykwsc aazo1x1wxhca5fg uk9 tyyobpbtlqgsurgkgdzpxwfh8 zxgxrggwf6wp2edst byccyb9jrx3lozcg5whgoi4 h7y end pgp signature derek atkins mit electrical engineering and computer science secretary mit student information processing board sipb mit media laboratory speech research group warlord mit edu pp asel n1nwh xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt privacy clipper sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net bogus sura net udel news intercon com usenet from amanda intercon com amanda walker newsgroups alt privacy clipper sci crypt subject re would clipper make good cover for other encryption method date wed apr organization intercon systems corporation herndon va usa lines distribution world message id r2kju news intercon com references strnlghtc5t42t j9b netcom com reply to amanda intercon com amanda walker nntp posting host chaos intercon com newsreader intercon tcp connect ii strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes chances are the government has thought of this and just anyone won be permitted access to enough of the internals to make fake clipper chip once the chips are released in phones or whatever they are vulnerable to phsyical inspection and observation now will grant that there will no doubt be safeguards against peeling the chip but the nsa has no monopoly on cleverness the chip and the algorithms it uses will not remain secret for very long any university with vlsi lab has the required equipment as does any offshore semiconductor manufacturer amanda walker intercon systems corporation xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech rpi smythw from smythw vccsouth23 its rpi edu william smythe subject re once tapped your code is no good any more message id tx5hqa rpi edu sender smythw rpi edu bill smythe nntp posting host vccsouth23 its rpi edu organization rensselaer polytechnic institute troy ny references qpg8finn982 dns1 nmsu edu apr18 escom com qsip1innnj2 dns1 nmsu edu distribution na date mon apr gmt lines in article qsip1innnj2 dns1 nmsu edu amolitor nmsu edu andrew molitor writes al escom com al donaldson writes amolitor nmsu edu andrew molitor writes this appears to be generic calling upon the name of the anti christ just for the hell of it let destroy this remark let us imagine that the executive branch actually could extract keys from the escrow houses without anyone knowing or telling now what dick has bits of data what the hell he gonna do with it trot around to the telco and say we like an unauthorised decrypting tap uh huh break in to watergate and install his own tap so his people still do have to break in neat huh record some noise then get the executive branch phone decryption box huh they ve got one goodness wait til the washington post gets hold of this and decrypt the noise more likely stare at the key and say oh hell it not worth all this bloody hassle no he gives the keys to the fbi who may then give them to the local police on request who then simply put some alagator clips on your phone junction box and conduct an illegal tap they then decrypt when they recover the tape its just doing what the government does best breaking the law bill smythe xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy comp org eff talk newsgroups sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy comp org eff talk path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu csus edu netcom com strnlght from strnlght netcom com david sternlight subject re the secret source of that announcement message id strnlghtc5uhwu netcom com organization dsi uscrpac references apr21 leland stanford edu gradyc5uamw bng netcom com date wed apr gmt lines grady netcom com suggests using common but restricted distribution private key to allow public key system encrypted postings in theory that will work fine as long as the privae key remains secure in practice it would be good idea to check to see if that would be violation of some net rule practice custom etc don say it would be just that it would be good idea to check this is not like rot13 where everybody can have the key trivially it would also be good idea to check to see if such posts would be forwarded by the sites needed to make the chain work of course there be no problem with discussion group travelling over facilities entirely under the control of the members probably there would also be no problem with mailing list approach it might even be fun for some david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu csus edu netcom com strnlght from strnlght netcom com david sternlight subject re once tapped your code is no good any more message id strnlghtc5uij4 netcom com organization dsi uscrpac references bu edu strnlghtc5nrhw qb netcom com elee9sf apr21095141 menudo menudo uh edu distribution na date wed apr gmt lines in article elee9sf apr21095141 menudo menudo uh edu elee9sf menudo menudo uh edu karl barrus writes would you trust black box from the nsa versus an open system from elsewhere absolutely if were assured by someone trusted that the black box was more secure have nothing to conceal from the government but would like to be sure that any russian japanese french or other competitors for my services can read my traffic like to be sure that competitive bid information was safe from commercial competitors and foreign governments which would aid them believe the nsa has identical motivations with respect to my activities the president and many other senior government officials have made it very clear that they share these motivations thus trust them on the coincidence of interests argument as well as on basic trust in their professionalism and high confidence in their skills david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu wupost mont mizzou1 missouri edu c445585 from c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu john kelsey subject bit keyseach machine message id bb71018 c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu sender news mont cs missouri edu nntp posting host mizzou1 missouri edu organization university of missouri references pgf srl03 cacs usl edu bb51156 c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu apr19 jarvis csri toronto edu apr20 magnus acs ohio state edu apr20 ulysses att com apr21 lokkur dexter mi us date wed apr cdt lines in article apr21 lokkur dexter mi us scs lokkur dexter mi us steve simmons writes normally be the last to argue with steve but shouldn that read years for all solutions mean if we can imagine the machine that does trial nanosecond we can imagine the storage medium that could index and archive it hmmmm think with really large keyspaces like this you need to alter the strategy discussed for des attempt decryption of several blocks and check the disctribution of the contents don think it at all feasible to keep encryptions of known plaintext block on any amount of tape or cd rom and certainly not such encrypted blocks anyone know cheap way of converting every atom in the solar system into one bit storage device actually keysearch of this kind shouldn be much worse than the simpler kind in terms of speed it just that you have to do it over for every encrypted message dumb question has anyone ever done any serious research on how many legitimate ascii encoded byte blocks there are that could be part of an english sentence for attacking des in ecb mode it seems like dictionary of this kind might be pretty valuable john kelsey xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security pgp newsgroups sci crypt alt security pgp path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu csus edu netcom com strnlght from strnlght netcom com david sternlight subject re fighting the clipper initiative message id strnlghtc5toc6 kiu netcom com organization dsi uscrpac references qu0mt mlh access digex net b6 rusnews w165w metatron uucp r0nov p3e access digex net date wed apr gmt lines in article r0nov p3e access digex net steve access digex com steve brinich writes american manufacturers peddling cripple chips with secret untested algorithm whose keys are held by people with history of untrustworthy behavoir or er excuse me but since the escrow agencies aren yet chosen how can you say they have history of untrustworthy behavoir sic sure each of us can think of agencies without such history price waterhouse has kept the secret of the academy awards for many years even in the face of an aggressive press the federal reserve open market committee has successfully kept decisions from leaking for the statutory period until publication even the department of agriculture has successfully kept crop forecasts from leaking prematurely frankly trust the above not the of of course since they might be subject to political pressure far sooner than the aclu eff or cpsr which though not exactly government apologists have no particular track record for internal security that know of david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu magnus acs ohio state edu jebright from jebright magnus acs ohio state edu james ebright subject re bit keyseach machine message id apr21 magnus acs ohio state edu sender news magnus acs ohio state edu nntp posting host top magnus acs ohio state edu organization the ohio state university references apr20 ulysses att com apr21 lokkur dexter mi us bb71018 c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu date wed apr gmt lines in article bb71018 c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu john kelsey writes in article apr21 lokkur dexter mi us scs lokkur dexter mi us steve simmons writes normally be the last to argue with steve but shouldn that read years for all solutions mean if we can imagine the machine that does trial nanosecond we can imagine the storage medium that could index and archive it hmmmm think with really large keyspaces like this you need to alter the strategy discussed for des attempt decryption of several blocks and check the disctribution of the contents don think it at all feasible to keep encryptions of known plaintext block on any amount of tape or cd rom and certainly not such encrypted blocks anyone know cheap way of converting every atom in the solar system into one bit storage device don claim to be crypto analyist there isn whole lot of good literature on the subject and the best people don seem to publish their work but rather doubt the approach such folks use is brute force sorry to have implied that in my previous post the history of these things is folks find clever ways of limiting the search and bang from there guess my real problem with skipjack is can not believe nsa would make publicly available system they couldn break if they wanted it just isn in their charter remember des came from ibm not nsa and when first published was given useful life of years think we are well past that point now remember based on the size of the nsa budget they spend lot more on the technology of decryption than most computer companies spend on have to imagine their stuff is real interesting friend who once worked for them he is dead now said he always enjoyed monitoring sac strategic air command crypto traffic and rather suspect that stuff is bit more complex than skipjack or was it the military got the stuff from the nsa just like we get skipjack from them btw folks nsa wasn being given the keys and the walker spy case shows for some of the systems the kgb didn need them either information farming at for addr phone finger the ohio state university jebright magnus acs ohio state edu jim ebright mail jre osu edu support privacy support encryption newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc news service uci edu ucivax news claremont edu jarthur claremont edu ebrandt from ebrandt jarthur claremont edu eli brandt subject re do we need the clipper for cheap security message id c5trgt ew4 news claremont edu sender news news claremont edu the news system organization harvey mudd college claremont ca references apr20 shearson com r1f62 rh5 news intercon com date wed apr gmt lines in article r1f62 rh5 news intercon com amanda intercon com amanda walker writes one thing that clipper offers is interoperability at higher degree of security than we currently have in non proprietary voice encryption systems this means it will be cheaper than anyone proprietary scheme and easier to deploy may be an anarchist nutcase but wouldn have frothed overmuch had the government proposed secure encryption standard in fact if the nsa had come up with privacy chip rather than wiretap chip would have been happy they could have done this set up an ansi committee picked secure cryptosystem defined protocol and interface and said hey start building them instead we have deliberately brain dead version of cryptosystem that has not even been peer reviewed yes the nsa owns some smart people but if they pulled feal well at is going to be left with lot of dud phones on its hands perry said someone please tell me what exactly we get in our social contract in exchange for giving up our right to strong cryptography can you tell me where exactly we have given up that right heh heh the government already gave it up for us remember in the announcement they described this scheme as balancing the two extremes of having no privacy and claiming that citizens had constitutional right to encryption so much for clinton support of the right of privacy pgp key by finger or mail void when prohibited eli ebrandt jarthur claremont edu xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp org eff talk sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen usenet cis ufl edu usenet ufl edu gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu swrinde network ucsd edu calmasd jpb from jpb calmasd prime com jan bielawski newsgroups comp org eff talk sci crypt subject re clipper chip long follow up message id calmasd prime com date apr gmt references rand org apr20 cc curtin edu au followup to comp org eff talk organization computervision san diego ca lines in article apr20 cc curtin edu au zrepachol cc curtin edu au paul repacholi writes questions and answers about the clinton administration telecommunications initiative suppose law enforcement agency is conducting wiretap on drug smuggling ring and intercepts conversation encrypted using the device what would they have to do to decipher the message they would have to obtain legal authorization normally court order to do the wiretap in the first place they would then present documentation of this authorization to the two entities responsible for safeguarding the keys and obtain the keys for the device being used by the drug smugglers the key is split into two parts which are stored separately in order to ensure the security of the key escrow system apologize for being so dense but this sentence reads as if it was lifted from luis bunuel screenplay am missing something why on earth would drug smugglers even use the device then obviously they ll be using something like triple encryption des instead as long as alternatives to clipper remain legal clipper accomplishes absolutely nothing zero as far as law enforcement is concerned the whole scheme is an absolute total incredible waste of government time and money as long as other encryption schemes that are any good remain legal in order for clipper to work as intended all strong cryptosystems have to be outlawed jan bielawski computervision san diego jpb calmasd prime com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu caen batcomputer ghost dsi unimi it univ lyon1 fr scsing switch ch arnes si cathy ijs si lavrencic from borut lavrencic ijs si newsgroups sci crypt subject re cryptology in the world message id apr21 cathy ijs si date apr references apr21 news weeg uiowa edu reply to borut lavrencic ijs si organization stefan institute lj slovenia lines in article apr21 news weeg uiowa edu holthaus news weeg uiowa edu james holthaus writes what is the status of cruptology for private citizens throughout the world or more clearly is there listing of countries and their policies on citizens encrypting electronic data curious how the europeans handle this for instance good question also wanted to find out and did while ago in our former communist times such activity sending crypto emails would be prevented sooner ot later law or no law but now there is no law against it so we are free to use it we now have an ec conformant law for protection and registration of personal files you must remember that the situation in small countries is vastly different from the big ones borut lavrencic sc si mail ac ijs lavrencic stefan institute internet borut lavrencic ijs si university of ljubljana phone si ljubljana slovenia pgp public key available on request dolgo smois kalis ovraz nikei njihk ocnoo dkril ivseb ipika path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel louie newsserver jvnc net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu moe ksu ksu edu crcnis1 unl edu stevew from stevew helios unl edu steve wu newsgroups sci crypt subject crypto final call date apr gmt organization university of nebraska lincoln lines message id r45oqinn9ni crcnis1 unl edu nntp posting host helios unl edu crypto conference announcement final call for papers the thirteenth annual crypto conference sponsored by the international association for cryptologic research iacr in cooperation with the ieee computer society technical committee on security and privacy the computer science department of the university of california santa barbara and bell northern research subsidiary of northern telecom will be held on the campus of the university of california santa barbara on august original research papers and technical expository talks are solicited on all practical and theoretical aspects of cryptology it is anticipated that some talks may also be presented by special invitation of the program committee instructions for authors authors are requested to send copies of detailed abstract not full paper by april to the program chair at the address given below limit of pages of pt type not counting the bibliography or the title page is placed on all submissions submissions must arrive on time or be postmarked no later than april and sent by airmail in order to receive consideration by the program committee it is required that submissions start with succinct statement of the problem addressed the solution proposed and its significance to cryptology appropriate for non specialist reader technical development directed to the specialist should follow as needed abstracts that have been submitted to other conferences that have proceedings are not eligible for submission submissions must be anonymous this means that names and affiliations of authors should only appear on the title page of the submission it should be possible to remove this page and send the papers to program committee members latex style file that produces output in this format is available by email from the program chair authors will be informed of acceptance or rejection in letter mailed on or before june compilation of all accepted abstracts will be available at the conference in the form of pre proceedings authors of accepted abstracts will be allowed to submit revised versions for the pre proceedings revised abstract should contain only minor changes and corrections to the originally submitted abstract all revised abstracts must be received by the program chair by july the page limit will be strictly enforced for the pre proceedings complete conference proceedings are expected to be published in springer verlag lecture notes in computer science series at later date pending negotiation the program committee consists of stinson chair nebraska bellare ibm watson biham technion israel brickell sandia national labs feigenbaum at bell labs impagliazzo ucsd odlyzko at bell labs okamoto ntt japan pfitzmann hildesheim germany rueppel r3 switzerland vanstone waterloo canada send submissions to the program chair douglas stinson crypto computer science and engineering department ferguson hall university of nebraska lincoln ne usa telephone fax internet stinson bibd unl edu for other information contact the general chair paul van oorschot crypto bell northern research mail stop carling ave nepean ontario k2h e9 canada telephone fax internet crypto93 bnr ca crypto general information august the program crypto is the thirteenth in series of workshops on cryptology held at santa barbara and is sponsored by the international association for cryptologic research in cooperation with the ieee computer society technical committee on security and privacy the computer science department of the university of california santa barbara and bell northern research subsidiary of northern telecom the program for the workshop will cover all aspects of cryptology extended abstracts of the papers presented at the conference will be distributed to all attendees at the conference and formal proceedings will be published at later date in addition to the regular program of papers selected or invited by the program committee there will be rump session on tuesday evening for informal presentations facilities will also be provided for attendees to demonstrate hardware software and other items of cryptographic interest if you wish to demonstrate such items you are urged to contact the general chair so that your needs will be attended to the social program will include hosted cocktail parties on sunday and monday in addition there will be beach barbecue on wednesday evening the price of the barbecue is included in the room and board charge and extra tickets may be purchased about the conference facilities the workshop will be held on the campus of the university of california santa barbara the campus is located adjacent to the santa barbara airport and the pacific ocean accommodations are available in the university dormitories at relatively low cost for conference participants children under the age of are not allowed to stay in the dormitories so those bringing small children will need to make separate arrangements in one of several nearby hotels more information on hotels is enclosed parking on campus is available at no cost to the participants however participants must indicate on the registration form if they desire parking permit travel information the campus is located approximately miles from the santa barbara airport which is served by several airlines including american america west delta united and us air free shuttle bus service will be provided between the santa barbara airport and the campus on sunday and thursday afternoons all major rental car agencies are also represented in santa barbara and amtrak has rail connections to san francisco from the north and los angeles from the south santa barbara is approximately miles north of los angeles airport and miles south of san francisco registration participation is invited by interested parties but attendance at the workshop is limited and pre registration is strongly advised late registrations subject to late registration fee may be accepted if space is available but there are no guarantees to register fill out the attached registration form and return to the address on the form along with payment in full before july campus accommodations will be available on first come first serve basis for attendees who register by july the conference fees include participation in the program and all social functions as well as membership to the iacr and subscription to the journal of cryptology the room and board charges include dormitory lodging and meals from dinner on sunday to lunch on thursday technical sessions will run from monday morning to thursday at noon very limited number of stipends are available to those unable to obtain funding applications for stipends should be sent to the general chair before june crypto crypto registration form registration deadline july last name first name sex affiliation mailing address phone fax electronic mail payment of the conference fee entitles you to membership in the international association for cryptologic research for one year at no extra charge including subscription to the journal of cryptology published by springer verlag at no extra charge do you wish to be an iacr member yes no the conference fee also includes the conference proceedings when they become available containing final versions of conference papers the book of extended abstracts distributed at the conference will contain only shortened preliminary versions of these papers maximum pages conference fee regular us attended eurocrypt norway full time student deduct if you do not wish proceedings total conference fee us room and board nights smoking non smoking single room per person double room per person roommate name extra barbecue tickets each one is included in room and board late fee for registration after july registration not guaranteed after july total funds enclosed dollars us payment must be by check payable in funds by money order in funds or by bank draft payable to crypto payment should be mailed to the general chair paul van oorschot crypto bell northern research mail stop carling ave nepean ontario k2h e9 canada crypto hotel information for those who choose not to stay in the dormitories the following is partial list of hotels in the area those who choose to stay off campus are responsible for making their own reservations and early reservations are advised since august is popular season in santa barbara note that goleta is closer to ucsb than santa barbara but that car will probably be required to travel between any hotel and the campus all prices are subject to change prices should be confirmed by calling the individual hotels directly however mention crypto when you are making your reservation and in several of the hotels listed you will be eligible for the university rate which can be significantly less than the normal rates we are not able to block rooms in these hotels so please make reservations as early as possible the quality of the hotels range from rather expensive beach front resorts to basic inexpensive accommodations for further information try contacting the santa barbara convention and visitors center south coast inn calle real goleta ca regular rates single double call for university rates contact murrill forrester at or toll free at cathedral oaks lodge calle real santa barbara single rates not available double rates start at including breakfast no university rates call tom patton at or toll free at motel calle real goleta ca single double no university rate available call the sandman inn state st santa barbara ca regular rates single or double for king size university rate call jean ingerle at or toll free at miramar hotel beachfront miles south of santa barbara on at san ysidro turnoff regular rates no university rates call pepper tree inn state st santa barbara ca regular rates for two people university rates for two people call christopher oliphant at or toll free at encina lodge bath street santa barbara ca regular rates for two people no university rates call carol wolford at or toll free at quality suites hollister ave santa barbara ca close to campus regular rates single double university rates double must mention you are attending ucsb program call michael ensign at upham hotel bed and breakfast de la vina road santa barbara ca university rate mention you are from crypto call sheila donegan at stevew helios unl edu fender smoke on the water fire in the sky smoke on the water stevew hoss unl edu bars guitar solo deep purple the best xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt comp org eff talk path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet news news world net connected com beauty rwing pat from pat rwing uucp pat myrto newsgroups sci crypt comp org eff talk subject re clipper considered harmful message id rwing uucp date apr gmt references optilink com organization totally unorganized lines in article optilink com brad optilink com brad yearwood writes if clipper comes to cellular phones along with legal proscriptions against using other cipher systems on these phones new and potentially dangerous class of crime is created aside from possession of terrorist tools unapproved encryption devices or programs criminals who very badly want inscrutable tactical communications specifically the terrorists and drug dealers who proponents of key escrow cite as threats will be highly motivated to steal the cipher phone of legitimate user and to kill this person or hold them hostage so discovery of compromise of the device will be delayed once suitable collection of devices is stolen criminals can communicate with impunity assuming the cipher system carries no trapdoors apart from key escrow until and unless the compromise is discovered by some other means because life is cheap criminals are currently willing to kill people to steal very large and conspicuous property luxury cars it is reasonable to assume that they will be willing to kill people to steal small and inconspicuous property cipher cellular phone just as we have seen in the past with blue box technology and in the present with modified cellular phones we can expect to see among high stakes criminals lucrative market for stolen cipher phones which can be used for few days the high stakes criminals will pay the life is cheap types substantial amounts for stolen instruments because person is typically discovered as missing or dead in few days stolen instrument will be usable for only few days there will be continuing demand for fresh phones fresh bodies and since clinton is also going full bore to deny unconnected citizens the means to defend themselves we will protect you is good enough for you by perverting or trashing the second amendment the targeted individuals will be guaranteed easy prey what is few bodies compared to the greater good of the fed being able to defeat citizen security with impunity you don think there doesn exist means by which the nsa can do their usual eavesdropping scanning for keywords with or without court order or any keys do you if so got some great florida real estate you might be interested in perhaps the idea of escrowed keys is meant to divert the discussion to how they will be safeguarded and away from the basic fact that the government is systematically taking away our right to privacy to be secure for the means of self defense and just about every other right spelled out in the bill of rights nawwww they are the government trust us in other words clipper and similar systems have the potential to turn current inconvenience to law enforcement into direct vicious and persistent threat to the general public what is more important to the government law enforcement people control or the safety of the general public the gun control issue should answer that one look at how good that works in making cities safer the places that are the worst in that regard are also the places with the best gun control government is not about public good it is about control never forget that our founding fathers sure were concerned about it remainder deleted pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle wa if all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and am not sure about the former albert einstien xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp programming sci math sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net ira uka de sbusol rz uni sb de coli uni sb de vieta marc from marc math uni sb de marc conrad newsgroups comp programming sci math sci crypt subject re list of large integer arithmetic packages date apr gmt organization computational linguistics dept saarbruecken lines message id marc vieta math uni sb de references r19e7 jkr msuinfo cl msu edu nntp posting host vieta math uni sb de mrr scss3 cl msu edu mark riordan writes not very comprehensive list deleted there is very comprehensive list in sci math symbolic which detailed descriptions of many packages especially you mark should update your list here it is available systems this is the list of currently developed and distributed software for symbolic math applications no informations is supplied on systems no longer being supported like saint formac alpak altran mathlab sin sac camal scratchpad mumath sheep trigman analitik smp or ccalc for more detailed info on any of the systems below look into the directory pub symbolic math in the anonymous ftp of math berkeley edu no particular recommendation is made for any of these if you want prices contact the company programs are listed by aprox the reverse order of the number of machines they run on in each class general purpose systems first if you have any information to add to this list we know we are missing mupad felix please send it to ca math berkeley edu paulo ney de souza department of mathematics university of california berkeley ca desouza math berkeley edu general purpose maple type commercial machines most impressive list of machines seen for program workstations dec hp ibm mips sun sgi apollo pc mac amiga atari at b2 gould convex ncr pyramid sequent unisys and cray contact maple daisy waterloo edu waterloo maple software columbia street west waterloo ontario canada n2l l3 phone version release comments general purpose source available for most routines graphics support in demo of the program for pc dos can be obtained from anonymous ftp at wuarchive wustl edu edu math msdos modern algebra maplev zip mathematica type commercial machines cray ymp down to mac and pc contact info wri com phone math wolfram research inc trade center drive champaign il version comments general purpose notebook interface on next mac nice graphics macsyma type commercial machines sun sun sparc vax unix and vms apollo hp dec risc pc386 dos symbolics computers and no sx pc contact macsyma service macsyma com phone macsyma macsyma inc academy st arlington ma version depends on machine is the latest for sun hp and dec risc for pc comments general purpose many diverse capabilities one of the oldest around includes propietary improvements from symbolics and macsyma inc descendant of mit macsyma doe macsyma type distribution fee only machines gigamos symbolics and ti explorer lisp machines the nil version runs on vaxes using the vms system the public domain franz lisp version runs on unix machines including suns and vaxes using unix contact estsc energy science technology software center box oak ridge tn phone comments help with doe macsyma general and help with issues such as obtaining support new versions etc lph paradigm com leon harten from paradigm assoc paradigm associates inc putnam avenue suite cambridge ma maxima type licence for fee get licence from estc before download machines unix workstations sun mips hp pc and pc dos beta contact wfs rascal utexas edu bill schelter version comments general purpose mit macsyma family common lisp implementation by william schelter based on kyoto common lisp modified version of doe macsyma available to estsc doe sites get the licence from estsc phone and then dowload the software from dos math utexas edu pub beta max zip or unix rascal ics utexas edu pub maxima tar currently their charge for machine license is to universities site licenses are also available aljabr type commercial machines mac with meg of ram contact aljabr fpr com phone fort pond research fort pond road acton ma us version comments mit macsyma family descendant uses franz lisp paramacs type commercial machines vax vms sun sun sgi and mac on the works contact lph paradigm com version comments vaxima type distribution fee only machines vax unix contact estsc see doe macsyma above version comments general purpose mit macsyma family descendant includes source and binaries with assembler for macsyma and franz lisp opus reduce type commercial machines all unix workstations variety of mainframes ms dos mbyte and atari st contact reduce netlib rand org version comments general purpose form type public domain verison version commercial machines msdos atarist mac sun3 sun4 sparc apollo next vax vms vax ultrix decstation and others contact t68 nikhef nl jos vermaseren binary versions of version are available by anonymous ftp from nikhef nikhef nl version and comments general purpose designed for big problems batch like interface axiom type commercial machines ibm rs and other ibm plataforms contact ryan nag com phone fax nag numerical algorithms group inc opus place suite downers grove il version comments general purpose simath type anonymous ftp machines suns apollo dn and siemens workstations contact simath math uni sb de version comments general purpose derive type commercial machines runs on pc and hp contact soft warehouse inc harding ave suite honolulu hawaii version comments said to be very robust gets problems that other larger programs fail on low cost theorist type commercial machines mac contact prescien well sf ca us phone fax prescience corp howard st san francisco ca version comments general purpose graphics if you like the mac interface you ll love this fixed precision digits runs on smaller mac than mma mas type anonymous ftp machines atari st tdi and spc modula compilers ibm pc at m2sds and topspeed modula compilers and commodore amiga m2amiga compiler contact kredel computer algebra group university of passau germany version comments mas is an experimental computer algebra system combining imperative programming facilities with algebraic specification capabilities for design and study of algebraic algorithms mas is available via anonymous ftp from alice fmi uni passau de mockmma type anonymous ftp from peoplesparc berkeley edu machines anywhere running common lisp contact fateman cs berkeley edu version comments it does matematica or mispelled that weyl type anonymous ftp from ftp cs cornell edu pub weyl contact rz cs cornell edu version comments intended to be incorporated in larger more specialized systems flac type machines ibm pc dos contact victor kistlerov institute for control sciences profsoyuznaya moscow ussr version comments functional language group theory cayley type cost recovery machines sun sun ibm aix and vm machines apollo dec vax vms mac running ux or higher and convex contact cayley maths su oz au phone fax computational algebra group university of sydney nsw australia version comments designed for fast computation with algebraic and combinatorial structures such as groups rings fields modules and graphs although it began as group theory system it has recently evolved into general abstract algebra system gap type anonymous ftp free but not pd basically gnu copyleft machines all unix workstations atari st ibm pc and mac contact gap samson math rwth aachen de ftp site samson math rwth aachen de math ucla edu version to be released dec comments group theory calculations algebra number theory pari type anonymous ftp machines most workstations mac and next contact pari mizar greco prog fr anonymous ftp to math ucla edu in the directory pub pari version comments number theoretical computations source available key routines are in assembler ascii and xwindows graphics pc dos version available from anonymous ftp at wuarchive wustl edu edu math msdos modern algebra pari386 macaulay type anonymous ftp machines complete source available binary mac versions available contact anonymous ftp to zariski harvard edu version comments focused on algebra type computations polynomial rings over finite fields things like that kant type machines contact kant group prof dr pohst dr johannes graf schmettow mathematisches institut heinrich heine universit at universit atsstr usseldorf pohst dd0rud81 bitnet or schmetto dd0rud81 bitnet version comments kant computational algebraic number theory is subroutine package for algorithms from geometry of numbers and algebraic number theory there are two versions of kant kant v1 is written in ansi fortran while kant v2 is built on the cayley platform and written in ansi lie type commercial machines unix workstations sun dec sgi ibm next pc atari and mac contact lie can nl phone fax can expertise centre kruislaan sj amsterdam the netherlands version comments lie group computations ubasic type anonymous ftp ubas830 zip machines mac and ibm pc contact malm argo acs oakland edu phone donald malm department of mathematical sciences oakland university rochester mi version comments basic like environment for number theory in the collection of programs written for it one can find malm collection of ubasic number theory programs malm zip by donald malm and copyrighted by him including baillie wagstaff lucas pseudoprime test algorithm for chinese remaindering elliptic curve method to factorize fermat method of factoring general periodic continued fraction to quadratic routine evaluates carmichael function lehmer method of solving mod ubmpqs prime factorization program for numbers over digits ubmpqs32 zip that can be found in the wurst archives wuarchive wustl edu numbers type free but not public domain registration required machines pc dos contact ivo dntsch phone rechenzentrum fax universitt osnabrck bitnet duentsch dosuni1 postfach osnabrck germany version comments numbers is calculator for number theory it performs various routines in elementary number theory some of which are also usable in algebra or combinatorics available in the anonymous ftp in ftp rz uni osnabrueck de in the directory pub msdos math cocoa type machines mac contact cocoa igecuniv bitnet version comments computations in commutative algebra galois type commercial machines ibm pc dos contact cifeg inc kalkgruberweg linz austria version comments algebra and number theory microcomputer written by lidl matthews and wells from the tasmania in turbo pascal v3 ganith type anonymous ftp machines any system with vanilla common lisp and has at least rudimentary lisp interface contact chanderjit bajaj andrew royappa department of computer science purdue university west lafayette in bajaj and royappa cs purdue edu version comments ganith is an algebraic geometry toolkit for computing and visualising solutions to systems of algebraic equations it is written in common lisp and and runs under version of the window system ganith is available from the anonymous ftp at cs purdue edu in the file pub avr ganith src tar tensor analysis schoonship type machines contact mentioned in comp phys comm version comments have heard this program mentioned supposely it designed for large problems thousands of terms in series expansions developed at cern for cdc7600 stensor type machines vax sun apollos orion atari amiga contact lh vand physto se lars hornfeldt physics department university of stockholm vanadisv stockholm sweden version comments system for tensor calculus and noncommutative algebra lisp calculators jacal type gnu copyleft machines needs lisp either common or scheme contact available by anon ftp to altdorf ai mit edu version comments an ibm pc version on floppy for is available from aubrey jaffer pleasant st wakefield ma usa gnu calc type gnu copyleft machines where emacs runs contact free software foundation version comments it runs inside gnu emacs and is written entirely in emacs lisp it does the usual things arbitrary precision integer real and complex arithmetic all written in lisp scientific functions symbolic algebra and calculus matrices graphics etc and can display expressions with square root signs and integrals by drawing them on the screen with ascii characters it comes with well written page online manual you can ftp it from any gnu site differential equations delia type informal distribution machines ibm pc dos contact bocharov program systems institute ussr academy of science pereslavl box ussr tlx boat version comments differetial equation computations pc shareware symbmath type shareware student and advanced versions machines ibm pc contact chen deakin oz au version comments runs on plain dos machines the shareware version is available in the file sm211a zip on the wurst archives more capable versions are available by mail order from the author cla type anonymous ftp machines pc dos contact version comments linear or matrix algebra package which computes rank determinant rwo reduced echelon form jordan canonical form characteristic equation eigenvalues etc of matrix file cla20 zip on the wurst archives xpl type anonymous ftp machines pc dos contact david meredith department of mathematics san francisco state university san francisco ca meredith sfsuvax1 sfsu edu version comments formerly called ccalc well integrated graphics and some numerical matrix manipulation routines intended for calculus students prentice hall sells this with book isbn or by calling but it is also available without the manual but with comprehensive help system by anonymous ftp from wuarchive wustl edu edu math msdos calculus cc4 zip amp type commercial evaluation copy available by anonymous ftp machines pc dos contact mark garber compuserve com ph cerebral software po box chamblee ga version comments the algebraic manipulation program amp is written in modula and is symbolic calculation tool amp functions in an interpreter mode and program mode it has tensor manipulation using index notation the evaluation copy is available in the anonymous ftp at ftp rz uni osnabrueck de pub msdos math amp30 zip mercury type shareware machines pc dos contact version comments limited in symbolic capabilities but is extremely adept at numerically solving equations and produces publication quality graphical output this used to be borland eureka but when borland abandoned it its original author started selling it as shareware under the name mercury available from anonymous ftp at wuarchive wustl edu edu math msdos calculus mrcry206 zip pfsa type public domain machines pc dos contact version comments available from the anonymous ftp at wuarchive wustl edu edu math msdos modern algebra vol546 zip lie type public domain machines pc dos contact head rivett mst csiro au head csiro division of materials science and technology melbourne australia or locked bag clayton vic australia phone telex aa fax version comments lie is program written in the mumath language not package for lie analysis of differential equations available from anonymous ftp at wuarchive wustl edu edu math msdos adv diff equations lie33 calculus type shareware machines pc dos with ega contact byoung keum dept of mathematics university of il urbana il version comments program for calculus and differential equations it has symbolic diff integration simple functions graphs very unstable program no reason to use it except for price suggested registration fee is available from anonymous ftp at wuarchive wustl edu edu math msdos calculus calc arc marc conrad universitaet des saarlandes luxemburg marc math uni sb de france germany these opinions are not necessarily these you are here of the simath group and maybe even not mine path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet pipex demon gtoal com gtoal newsgroups sci crypt from gtoal gtoal com graham toal subject re do we need the clipper for cheap security date tue apr message id aa05465 pizzabox demon co uk sender usenet demon co uk lines gtoal gtoal com graham toal writes in the uk it impossible to get approval to attach any crypto device to the phone network anything that plugs in to our bt phone sockets must be approved for some reason crypto devices just never are whats the difference between bis modem and bis modem not being entirely silly here what pointing out is that the modems that they have already approved for data transmission will work just fine to transmit scrambled vocoded voice absolutely just meant that no secure dedicated crypto device has ever been given approval guerrilla underground devices should be well possible with today high speed modems not that can think of many v32bis modems that are approved either mind you just the overpriced couriers can someone tell me if hardware compression is or is not needed to run digital speech down think it is ve heard it not lets say bit samples would raw data at the corresponding sampling rate be usable if not how fancy does the compression need to be path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet pipex demon gtoal com gtoal newsgroups sci crypt from gtoal gtoal com graham toal subject re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip date tue apr message id aa05240 pizzabox demon co uk sender usenet demon co uk lines think should also point out that the mystical des engines are known plaintext engines unless you add ton of really smart hardware assume the ton of smart hardware it doesn really have to be that smart path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu uunet pipex demon gtoal com gtoal newsgroups sci crypt from gtoal gtoal com graham toal subject re the secret source of that announcement date tue apr message id aa05213 pizzabox demon co uk sender usenet demon co uk lines even more interesting the smtp server at csrc ncsl nist gov no longer recognizes the expn and vrfy commands telnet csrc ncsl nist gov smtp trying connected to csrc ncsl nist gov escape character is first org sendmail nist ready at tue apr edt expn clipper command unrecognized seems like sombody didn like your snooping around marc or mine or the dozen or so other people who probably had the same idea so does this rush to shut it down imply that some of the names on that list are heavy duty spooks path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet pipex demon gtoal com gtoal newsgroups sci crypt from gtoal gtoal com graham toal subject re text of white house announcement and as on clipper chip encryption date tue apr message id aa05148 pizzabox demon co uk sender usenet demon co uk lines actually many of us have noted this we have noted that the program started at least years ago that the contracts with vlsi technology and microtoxin were let at least months ago that production of the chips is well underway and so forth nobody know has claimed clinton intitiated the program but he chose to go ahead with it perhaps the nsa realised that no one would even contemplate falling for the dual escrow bluff while under the bush administration and had to wait for democrat govt to con into promoting this because people might just believe they were honest didn work did it xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech psuvax1 rutgers mcdhup src4src olias redsonja from redsonja olias linet org red sonja newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee subject re text of white house announcement and as on clipper chip encryption message id apr20 olias linet org date apr gmt references c5l17v gh5 dove nist gov qmugcinnpu9 gap caltech edu distribution na organization long island pubnet long may it rave lines in article qmugcinnpu9 gap caltech edu hal cco caltech edu hal finney writes the key question is whether non clipper encryption will be made illegal it seems pretty obvious that it will be made illegal if very loud noise is not made about this immediately to congress and the house it looks like the worst nightmares raised by dorothy denning proposals are coming true if the government continues on this course imagine that we will see strong cryptography made illegal encryption programs for disk files and email as well as software to allow for encrypted voice communications will be distributed only through the underground people will have to learn how to hide the fact that they are protecting their privacy don know what worse the waste of money or the fact that in spite of all clinton rhetoric to the contrary this is feeble attempt by large group of bored intelligence bureaucrats to justify their currently useless jobs clinton said he was going to trim the fat from the government this doesn look very dietetic to me as said before in this group drug dealing and terrorism both tend to be international crimes which are not going to cease if the us starts to regulate encryption the drug dealers and terrorists will simply go to other countries to communicate their plans and will still carry them out here and or wherever else this is not the solution to the problem they try to invent new problem by saying we need encryption guess it good thing bill gates isn star general or we would all need our own copies of ms dos too right und vee haff vays uff findink out iff you are usink doctor dos it shocking and frightening to see that this is actually happening here our health care and education systems are in the toilet and they come up with this pearl if this goddamned government doesn get clue real quick and start trying to repair the infrastructure of the country rather than inventing someone to blame germany and japan are going to eat the us alive and we will deserve it it not like there any shortage of real problems to solve guys clipper chip is really going to help the homeless clipper chip is really going to help educate the children in the ghettos of our cities just think of the generation gap that can be developed when they rehire dod engineer dad to work on clipper chips that will be used to decrypt slightly rebellious adolescent hacker son naughty gif files can see the shitcom already if that wasn forged post or sick joke popping that dead kennedys tape into the car stereo and tearing ass to canada clinton on white horse is near it the suede denim secret police they have come for your uncool niece don worry it only phone shit knew should have gotten some of those consent to monitoring stickers they keep on autovon phones when had the chance should have known need them in civilian life redsonja olias linet org rs self possession is of the law alien we control the laws of nature how come when it human it an joel and you still dress that way abortion but when it chicken mst3k gamera vs guiron it an omelet george carlin xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security pgp path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net bogus sura net udel news intercon com digex com digex com not for mail from steve access digex com steve brinich newsgroups sci crypt alt security pgp subject re fighting the clipper initiative date apr organization express access online communications greenbelt md usa lines message id r3b4a ppi access digex net references qu0mt mlh access digex net b6 rusnews w165w metatron uucp r0nov p3e access digex net strnlghtc5toc6 kiu netcom com nntp posting host access digex net er excuse me but since the escrow agencies aren yet chosen how can you say they have history of untrustworthy behavoir sic refer to the federal law enforcement apparatus which is ultimately in charge of this generally xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net wupost uunet sci34hub presto random from random presto uucp jeff hyche newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee subject re once tapped your code is no good any more message id j4os zk2 presto uucp reply to presto random uunet uu net references apr17 clarinet com tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com qpg8finn982 dns1 nmsu edu apr18 escom com distribution na newsreader arn v1 lines date apr cst organization just me in article apr18 escom com al donaldson writes unrelated question isn the term clipper as neat as it is already taken by intergraph yes clipper is trademark of intergraph its the risc chip used in some of thier workstations wonder what intergraph is going to do to this infringement on thier name sake jeff hyche there can be only one presto random uunet uu net newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu csus edu netcom com strnlght from strnlght netcom com david sternlight subject re an open letter to mr clinton message id strnlghtc5ujw9 uz netcom com organization dsi uscrpac references vkcsbl mbeckman mbeckman com date wed apr gmt lines in article vkcsbl mbeckman mbeckman com mbeckman mbeckman com writes as an economist sure you can see the flaws in this logic if the naive market is flooded with proprietary but weak encryption then truly strong encryption will be unable to compete this is true for the mass market but not for those who need strong crypto and are willing to pay the price after all one can buy strong crypto today if one is willing to spend enough thus the concern is not economic the issue most worth worrying about is that after the system takes hold the government will outlaw other systems and something voluntary will become the only system available that is political not an economic issue as separate matter you may be making an implied advocacy for cheap secure crypto for everyone it true that the clipper chip would probably prevent that except via clipper but cheap secure crypto for everyone is political discussion not an economic one and the whole point of clipper is to resolve that political policy tension between securing legitimate communications and tapping the crooks david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel news intercon com usenet from amanda intercon com amanda walker newsgroups sci crypt subject re do we need the clipper for cheap security date wed apr organization intercon systems corporation herndon va usa lines distribution world message id r466c an3 news intercon com references c5trgt ew4 news claremont edu reply to amanda intercon com amanda walker nntp posting host chaos intercon com newsreader intercon tcp connect ii ebrandt jarthur claremont edu eli brandt writes instead we have deliberately brain dead version of cryptosystem that has not even been peer reviewed yes the nsa owns some smart people but if they pulled feal well at is going to be left with lot of dud phones on its hands agreed remember don even think of clipper as encryption in any real sense if did probably be lot more annoyed about it heh heh the government already gave it up for us remember in the announcement they described this scheme as balancing the two extremes of having no privacy and claiming that citizens had constitutional right to encryption that not for clinton or anyone under him to say though only the federal and supreme courts can say anything about the constitutionality anything the administration or any governmental agency says is opinion at best amanda walker intercon systems corporation xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy clipper newsgroups sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net agate linus linus mitre org linus mbunix eachus from eachus spectre mitre org robert eachus subject re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip in reply to scs lokkur dexter mi us message of wed apr gmt message id eachus apr21140358 spectre mitre org sender news linus mitre org news service nntp posting host spectre mitre org organization the mitre corp bedford ma references pgf srl03 cacs usl edu bb51156 c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu apr19 jarvis csri toronto edu apr20 magnus acs ohio state edu apr20 ulysses att com date wed apr gmt lines smb research att com steven bellovin writes thousands tens of thousands do some arithmetic please skipjack has possible keys let assume brute force engine like that hypothesized for des microsecond per trial million chips that trials per second or about years for trials well maybe they can get chips running at one trial per nanosecond and build machine with million chips sure only years for each solution but there is much more pernicious problem with the scheme as proposed building brute force machine to test possible keys if you have the other half from one escrow agent is easy one chip one test per microsecond gives you one break every two weeks and that break gives you all messages involving that phone the xor scheme so that the files from one escrow agent gives you nothing is an improvement but notice that xoring with truely random bit strings allows for an arbitrary number of escrow agents using for xor sk for the escrowed key and and for two random bit strings hand sk sk and sk to three escrow agents it is possible to come with an encoding scheme to match any escrow pattern for example of such that fewer cooperating escrow agents gives the cracking agency no benefit robert eachus with standard disclaimer use standard disclaimer function message text in clever ideas return better ideas is path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu sol ctr columbia edu eff enterpoop mit edu senator bedfellow mit edu athena mit edu jfc from jfc athena mit edu john carr newsgroups sci crypt subject re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only date apr gmt organization massachusetts institute of technology lines message id r47l1inn8gq senator bedfellow mit edu references almaden ibm com r0ausinni01 senator bedfellow mit edu apr20 shearson com nntp posting host achates mit edu in article apr20 shearson com pmetzger snark shearson com perry metzger writes wrote the chip and algorithm are classified if you reverse engineer it and tell people you are likely to go to jail well not lawyer but from what can tell this is completely and utterly untrue the does not have an official secrets act we do have laws that will punish you for revealing what classified information you learned in your capacity as government official contractor etc and we have laws that prohibit stealing such information however if they sell you the chip can see that they can make reverse engineering it and revealing the details illegal in most cases information you come by properly is yours to use as you wish but there are certainly exceptions if you write paper which includes sufficiently detailed information on how to build nuclear weapon it is classified as understand the law nuclear weapons design is automatically classified even if you do the work yourself believe you are then not allowed to read your own paper less serious example if you tell drivers about speed trap they are about to run into you can be fined even though you might argue that you broke no law when you discovered the location of the policeman the charge is interfering with police officer which is quite similar what you would be doing by reverse engineering the clipper chip don tell me that you think this violates the constitution find some court cases which have struck down such laws many people would not be comforted by the fact that the government violated their rights when it imprisoned them john carr jfc athena mit edu xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt comp lang newsgroups sci crypt comp lang path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net newsserver jvnc net howland reston ans net agate doc ic ac uk warwick uknet brunel ee92jks from ee92jks brunel ac uk jonathan saville subject re freely distributable public key cryptography code where message id c5ukt8 cc1 brunel ac uk followup to sci crypt comp lang organization brunel university uxbridge uk newsreader tin version pl8 references c5ua2j iki gpu utcc utoronto ca date wed apr gmt lines wigglesworth smhanaes gpu utcc utoronto ca wrote do you know of any freely distributable or code for public key cryptography such as rsa ve tried various archie searches to no avail have you heard of pgp assume from your post that you have not pgp is freeware rsa encryption program which includes digital signatures and comprehensive key management facilities most sites also keep the source code growing number of people are using this excellent software to encrypt to very high standard their email and data get it before clinton outlaws it two of the many sites are rsa com pub pgp soda berkeley edu pub cypherpunks pgp hope this helps jon jon saville who alive can say thou art no ee92jks brunel ac uk poet may st not tell thy dreams keats pgp public key available upon request or by finger newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net wupost uunet pipex uknet strath cs memex peter from peter memex co uk peter ilieve subject re clipper chip and crypto key escrow message id apr21 memex co uk organization memex information systems ltd east kilbrde scotland date wed apr gmt lines excerpts from the clipper announcement with some questions the ability of authorized officials to access telephone calls and data under proper court or other legal order when necessary to protect our citizens suppose law enforcement agency is conducting wiretap on drug smuggling ring and intercepts conversation encrypted using the device what would they have to do to decipher the message they would have to obtain legal authorization normally court order to do the wiretap in the first place they would then present documentation of this authorization to the two entities responsible for safeguarding the keys and obtain the keys for the device being used by the drug smugglers the key is split into two parts which are stored separately in order to ensure the security of the key escrow system in these two sections the phrases or other legal order and normally court order imply there is some other way or ways of doing legal wiretap what is are these how do they affect the way people who trust the system of court orders to protect them feel about this escrow system the second section shows the sequence of events the law enforcer armed with his warrant attaches his headphones to the line with his croc clips remember these are the folk who couldn cope with digital telephony and hears load of modem like tones we are talking analogue telephony here what next what modulation scheme do these clipper boxes use is it possible to record the tones for use after the keys are obtained thought it was quite difficult to record modem session at some intermediate point on the line maybe they have taken crash course in data comms and have unit that demodulates the tones and stores the digital stream for decryption later this would still suffer from the same problems as trying to record the tones as the demodulator would not be at one end of the line if calls can be recorded for decryption later it would be quite easy to foil the system by buying lots of clipper units these are supposed to be cheap mass market items and using them in turn how tolerant is the modulation scheme to errors these things are proposed for use by us corporations to secure their foreign offices where phone line quality may well be poor it seems hard enough to me to get digitised speech of any quality into something modem can handle without having to add lots of error correction to keep the decryption in sync will the devices be exportable will other devices that use the government hardware voice encryption devices are subject to export control requirements one of the attractions of this technology is the protection it can give to companies operating at home and abroad with this in mind we expect export licenses will be granted on case by case basis for companies seeking to use these devices to secure their own communications abroad this raises an intersting question in the uk here it is illegal to connect anything to public telecomms network without it being approved by body called babt it has been stated either here or in the uk telecom group that they will not approve equipment that does encryption don know if this is true or not but this would make good test case perhaps friendly countries and the uk may still qualify will get to fish in the escrowed key pool as well peter ilieve peter memex co uk newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net agate headwall stanford edu nntp stanford edu toyon next stanford edu purinton from purinton toyon next stanford edu joshua jordan purinton subject re the secret source of that announcement message id apr21 leland stanford edu sender news leland stanford edu mr news organization stanford university references marc apr17211937 oliver mit edu r1om5 c5m slab mtholyoke edu r3hgqinndaa uwm edu date wed apr gmt lines in article r3hgqinndaa uwm edu rick miller rick ee uwm edu writes jbotz mtholyoke edu jurgen botz writes marc mit edu marc horowitz n1nzu writes seems like sombody didn like your snooping around marc or the more likely explanation is that marc is spoofing sincerely doubt that denning and crew are keen enough to react that quickly and doubt they want to cripple their smtp server boot marc is not spoofing try it yourself at least the commands work exactly as he described they do not work josh no pattern content or thing is the being who looks out from each pair of eyes and only that is important gendlin path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu uwm edu usenet from rick miller former spook rick ee uwm edu newsgroups sci crypt subject alternate legal wiretaps date apr gmt organization just me lines message id r3j8vinndlp uwm edu references bontchev fbihh apr21 news clarkson edu nntp posting host summary nothing spooky it an executive order tuinstra signal ece clarkson edu soe writes it would be strong incentive as vesselin points out for more police agencies to go rogue and try to get keys through more efficient but less constitutional means notice what the release said suppose law enforcement agency is conducting wiretap on drug smuggling ring and intercepts conversation encrypted using the device what would they have to do to decipher the message they would have to obtain legal authorization normally court order to do the wiretap in the first place the clear implication is that there are legal authorizations other than court order just how leaky are these and who knows what in those pages that authorized the nsa there was cryptologic tech in the us navy ctrsn nothing big all spooks in the navy are required to know the gist of ussid the navy way of naming particular presidential executive order it outlines what spooks can and can do with respect to the privacy of us nationals the following information is of course unclassified the whole issue hangs about what you mean by wiretap if the signal can be detected by non intrusive means like radio listening then it may be recorded and it may be analyzed analyzed means that it may be either deciphered and or radio location may be used to locate the transmitter the catch is this any and all record of the signal and its derivatives may only be kept for maximum of days after which they are destroyed unless permission is obtained from the us attorney general to keep them didn you ever wonder how coast guard cutters find those drug runners in all those tens of thousands of square miles of sea even in the dark rick miller rick ee uwm edu ricxjo discus mil wi us ricxjo muelisto send postcard get one back enposxtigu bildkarton kaj vi ricevos alion rick miller woods muskego wis usa xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp org eff talk alt privacy clipper sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com nigel msen com yale edu minerva cis yale edu jgfoot from jgfoot minerva cis yale edu josh goldfoot newsgroups comp org eff talk alt privacy clipper sci crypt subject re organized lobbying for cryptography followup to comp org eff talk alt privacy clipper sci crypt date apr gmt organization yale university lines distribution inet message id r3jgbinn35i eli cs yale edu references r2gb5 h0r transfer stratus com reply to jgfoot minerva cis yale edu nntp posting host minerva cis yale edu newsreader tin version minerva pl9 tarl neustaedter tarl coyoacan sw stratus com wrote it means that the eff public stance is complicated with issues irrelevant to the encryption issue per se there may well be people who care about the encryption issue who don care to associate themselves with the network erotica issue or may even disagree with the eff position perhaps these encryption only types would defend the digitized porn if it was posted encrypted these issues are not as seperable as you maintain xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com network ucsd edu qualcom qualcomm com qualcom rdippold from rdippold qualcomm com ron asbestos dippold subject re once tapped your code is no good any more message id rdippold qualcom originator rdippold qualcom qualcomm com sender news qualcomm com nntp posting host qualcom qualcomm com organization qualcomm inc san diego ca references apr17 clarinet com tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com qpg8finn982 dns1 nmsu edu apr18 escom com j4os zk2 presto uucp distribution na date wed apr gmt lines random presto uucp jeff hyche writes yes clipper is trademark of intergraph its the risc chip used in some of thier workstations wonder what intergraph is going to do to this infringement on thier name sake probably keep quiet and take it lest they get their kneecaps busted good news ten weeks from friday will be good day newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net wupost uwm edu linac att att out cbnewsh cbnewsh cb att com wcs from wcs anchor ho att com bill stewart subject re why the clipper algorithm is secret organization brought to you by the numbers and date tue apr gmt message id wcs apr20142931 rainier att com in reply to bear kestrel fsl noaa gov message of tue apr gmt references apr17 ulysses att com apr18 iecc cambridge ma us c5pstr lu2 panix com apr20 fsl noaa gov sender news cbnewsh cb att com netnews administrator nntp posting host rainier ho att com lines in article apr20 fsl noaa gov bear kestrel fsl noaa gov bear giles writes in article c5pstr lu2 panix com dfl panix com danny bedlam writes the algorithm is classified because military contract or similar government equivalent to military has been let for this proprietary design that the feds say that nsa developed is there patent is that patent publicly available my betting is that that too is classified unless there has been major change in the law there no such beast as classified patent patents exist to encourage communications and develop the state of the art while there aren classified patents there are patent secrecy orders suppose you invent voice scrambler for cb radio and apply for patent the patent office decides the nsa might be interested gives them copy of your application and you get nice note back saying your patent application has now been classified for national security reasons and you re no longer allowed to make and sell it picking this example because it happened in the late it was probably some analog scrambler and would have probably violated fcc rules anyway but it did get classified or suppose you publish paper on your really spiffy algorithm and then file patent application since it been published they can gain anything by classifying it though you can get patents in most countries other than the us where patent laws are different obviously system of classified patents would be highly bogus you can sell that widget because there classified patent on it you re not allowed to see the patent or know who owns the design so just give us all your money and work in progress and maybe we won throw you in jail for espionage some countries might have that kind of system but we don have that here quite yet pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com at bell labs m312 holmdel nj no from new jersey only work in cyberspace white house commect line fax xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy clipper newsgroups sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com emory wupost uwm edu linac att att ulysses ulysses smb from smb research att com steven bellovin subject re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip message id apr21 ulysses att com date wed apr gmt references apr19 jarvis csri toronto edu apr20 magnus acs ohio state edu apr20 ulysses att com c5sy1z td demon co uk organization at bell laboratories lines in article c5sy1z td demon co uk graham toal gtoal gtoal com writes in article apr20 ulysses att com smb research att com steven bellovin writes thousands tens of thousands do some arithmetic please skipjack has possible keys we don yet know if all bits count that doesn worry me at all they re not going to cheat at something they can get caught at and key size is one of the things that can be verified externally feed lots of random key input pairs into the chip then try flipping random key bits and see what happens to the output we already know what should happen about half the output bits should vary on average from bit key change or input change if they were out to build weak cryptosystem it might be the case that some of the bits are much less powerful than others in the sense that they only enter into the encryption very late in the game by contrast des was designed to use each key bit as early as possible the output change rate appears as early as round again though don think nsa is going to cheat that crudely they re likely to get caught remember that they ve promised to let committee of outside experts see the cryptosystem design if you assume something des like biased subkey generation schedule will stick out like sore thumb the committee can and should run lots of tests and retain the output this can be verified later against the chip and yes the civilian community has at least some secure storage facilities that don think even nsa can get into without it being noticed until fort meade gets its transporter working again oops don think was supposed to talk about that the committee members can even retain secure copies of the code in two halves which you have to xor together to recover the program seriously there are think problems with this whole scheme but the people who invented it aren stupid and they ve been in the crypto game and the smoke and mirrors game far longer than most of us they re not going to lie in ways that can be detected easily since their credibility is the only thing they can use to sell this system if they ve lied about the civilian committee no one will believe them about the absence of other back doors if they ve lied about the key size no one will believe that they haven copied the programming disk with the keys if they ve lied about obvious aspects of the strength of the cryptosystem no one will believe the escrow agencies aren in cahoots with them that isn to say that they aren lying about all those other things anyway and certainly not claiming that nsa can build cryptosystem with back door that the committee can find look how long it took for folks to believe that the boxes weren sabotaged it entirely possible that the committee will release an ambiguous report for just such reasons but that subtle point one you can explain to senator anyway its looking like the keys and escrow arrangements are smoke and mirrors to cover the way the nsa can regenerate the key from the transmitted serial number don like the unit key generation process any better than you do however s1 and s2 are supposed to be under control of the same escrow agents if they can be trusted to keep the seed values secure they can be trusted to keep the half keys secure still don know if or when s1 and s2 change thought had seen something about them being constant but just reread denning technical information post and it doesn say anything one way or the other steve bellovin xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt privacy clipper sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel news intercon com usenet from amanda intercon com amanda walker newsgroups alt privacy clipper sci crypt subject re would clipper make good cover for other encryption method date wed apr organization intercon systems corporation herndon va usa lines distribution world message id r49np b5v news intercon com references bontchev fbihh reply to amanda intercon com amanda walker nntp posting host chaos intercon com newsreader intercon tcp connect ii bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de vesselin bontchev writes if there are many as er people in the usa who reason like the above then it should not be surprising that the current plot has been allowed to happen the willingness of the majority of the people to give up their freedom in exchange for sense of safety is hardly limited to the usa and is an endemic problem in any human society of any appreciable size the structure of the us government does try to combat this tendency to some extent but fighting entropy is always losing battle most people would rather have comfort than freedom the paradox is that you can really have the former in the long term unless you have the latter one of the reasons that probably come across to some people as weird cross between libertarian and an establishment tool is that end up taking an utterly pragmatic view of government don get up in arms when the government fails to protect the interests of the people because in my lifetime it never has therefore have no expectation that it will as result protect my own interests rather than expecting the government to be fair will use strong cryptography when think it is needed whether or not it is legal at the time same thing with anything else the government would rather not see in private hands that their problem what important to me is using the right tool for the job if it legal so much the better if it is not but does not violate my very strong sense of personal ethics will use it anyway as long think it is worth it expecting the government to actually protect the interests of its citizens except by accident is utter folly even jefferson one of the major architects of the american system of government figured that in couple hundred years it would become so corrupt and self serving that it would be time dismantle it and try again by revolution if necessary agree and while don go around trying to spark one ll certainly participate if it happens when around there is reason am such strong supporter of individual rights while being so cynical about politics ve already written off politics and yes this may get me in trouble some day if so so be it drive faster than mph too amanda walker intercon systems corporation xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy comp org eff talk newsgroups sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy comp org eff talk path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu csus edu netcom com grady from grady netcom com ef221 subject re the secret source of that announcement message id gradyc5unp0 d21 netcom com organization capriccioso newsreader tin version pl6 references r3vjhinn5iq dns1 nmsu edu distribution inet date wed apr gmt lines andrew molitor amolitor nmsu edu wrote monitor my phonecalls monitor usenet provide only cryptosystems they can easily crack etc etc this is not to say that they don they might but you don know that they do and you have no evidence that they do for almost all values of you it follows therefore that for most values of you your claims about the nsa border on paranoia andrew now wouldn be the one to claim that you are injecting some disinformation into the net andrew but paranoia refers to unwarranted or excessive suspicions or fear not those that have reasonable roots let start with looking at the professionals the nsa itself its birth was by secret executive order by harry truman in until even not even one word of this executive order chartering the nsa was sealed paranoia right on the outside of the nsa complex is ten foot cyclone fence with multiple rows of barbed wire with high voltage complete with signs prohibiting even making sketches under penalty of the internal security act the area is completely scanned by closed circuit television more paranoia these are professionals maybe they know something we don eh do you think it would have helped admiral yamamoto if the japanese had been little more paranoid of their purple cipher or maybe the germans should have been little more paranoid about their engima with respect to turing and the british how about the cracking of the zimmerman telegram would little more paranoia have helped the germans here maybe the nsa should have been little more paranoid about emma woikin or joseph sidney petersen jr or maybe you want to talk about macmillan publishers cooperation with the cia and nsa to suppress yardley japanese diplomatic secrets or even kahn the codebreakers paranoia right the most popular cipher systems in captured soviet spies was the one time pad even with the necessity of keeping incriminating evidence about is known to be the only proven unbreakable system soviet paranoia right and what do you think the nsa does with its wullenwebers and huge rhombics pointed embassy row and their sites near satellite uplink and downlink sites duh when worked in classified mitre communications lab at one time even with secret clearance had to be escorted to the toilet and the entire site was built into mosler type vault with very thick bomb proof door mitre paranoia could cite probably hundred more facts which all support as best hypothesis the notion that the nsa is grabbing as much as it can as fast as it can one would be fool to ignore the pattern of facts and conclude that they were random and we know the government is violent even against children as recent events prove judge william sessions is disgrace but solemn warning to those who ignore the web of evidence that our government institutions have in their contempt for our civil rights and of course we have to err somewhat on the excessive side of caution because that does much less harm than erring on the reckless side as member of the crew of the uss liberty might aver might suggest andrew that you read kahn codebreakers and bamford puzzle palace and come back with some more facts to support your sheepish acquiescence to authority grady netcom com ef221 e2 ad d3 d1 c6 f3 fc ac f7 xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt comp org eff talk path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net noc near net das news harvard edu husc news harvard edu husc harvard edu yuan1 newsgroups sci crypt comp org eff talk subject re clipper considered harmful message id yuan1 husc harvard edu from yuan1 scws7 harvard edu nina yuan date apr gmt references optilink com r24us oeh agate berkeley edu distribution inet nntp posting host scws7 harvard edu lines shirriff sprite berkeley edu ken shirriff writes it seems likely to me that that large subset of encrypted communications would be archived to tape so they could be read if sometime in the future probable cause arises and warrant is obtained can even imagine this being found legal and constitutional since nothing is actually listened to until valid warrant is issued and the keys are obtained imagine archiving all pay phone conversations so if someone turns out to be drug dealer you can listen to all their past drug deals and archive calls to from suspected mafia members potential terrorists radicals etc imagine the convenience for the police of being able to get warrant now and listening to all the calls the world trade center bombers made in the past year imagine if this were available during the elections instead of clumsily searching through the clinton passport file they could have just done voice grep as someone stated earlier on his telephone conversations for the last years not lawyer and don even play one on tv but intuitively there something wrong with having one words archived for possible future use against you this possibility frightens me more than any of the talk about the clipper chip right to cryptography etc since archiving would be such powerful tool and so easy to do why wouldn it happen afraid it just might nhy nina yuan it miracle that curiosity harvard college survives formal education yuan1 husc harvard edu albert einstein xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com think com spdcc steamer clam com mcbay from mcbay clam com george mcbay subject re what the clipper nay sayers sound like to me message id apr21 clam com date wed apr gmt distribution na references qsvfcinnq9v dns1 nmsu edu organization clam associates lines in article qsvfcinnq9v dns1 nmsu edu amolitor moink nmsu edu andrew molitor writes lot of this article has been deleted for space look this is clearly the first step toward outlawing our own screw thread specifications if this madness isn fought tooth and nail every step of the way it ll be crime to use screw threads other than those our fearless leaders so graciously define for us the clipper standard is the first step toward outlawing other strong encryption standards if the government didn intend to outlaw other forms of encryption than clipper is just big waste of time and money why you ask because anyone who is transferring data that any government agency could use against him her would be total fool to use the clipper system so why add the backdoor key if all lawbreakers will use alternate encryption methods because they assume they can just do away with everything else for one am planning on boycotting any equipment that contains clipper technology xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu utnut torn nott dgbt rick dgbt doc ca debra dgbt doc ca jhan from jhan debra dgbt doc ca jerry han subject re once tapped your code is no good any more message id apr21 rick dgbt doc ca sender news rick dgbt doc ca nntp posting host debra dgbt doc ca organization communications research centre ottawa references rdippold qualcom apr21 ucsu colorado edu bontchev fbihh distribution na date wed apr gmt lines in article bontchev fbihh bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de writes and some people thought that am exaggerating when claiming that the cripple chip is just first step in totalitarian plot against the civil liberties in the usa it seems that ve even been an optimist the things are happening even faster than expected that another of the dirty tricks they used to apply on us under the communist regime do something secret then tell the people about is after the fact when nothing can be done any more and of course explaining them how much better the situation is now in my previous messages wrote that the americans should wake up and fight against the new proposal now it seems to me that it is already too late it has already happened the civil liberties have been violated no stollen from the american people while the most part of this people has been sleeping happily too sad as one of the happily sleeping people would just like to ask this aren people just slightly overreacting to this or are we all of sudden going to draw parallels to nazi germany and communist russia the point of the matter is that yes this is serious problem but it is not the end of the world guess what we re doing something now you can do in communist country or nazi germany we re complaining about it or rather you re complaining about it and nobody is shooting at us or rather if they re shooting at me they have real bad aim guess what people you live in one of the few countries in the world where person can complain without getting shot at people are always complaining that somebody did this wrong or somebody did that wrong or whatever sit down and figure out two things what have they done right how much worse can it get and you ll find that you and are pretty damn lucky so let talk about it get some action going decide what going on but let not overreact regards vesselin vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center university of hamburg tel fax fachbereich informatik agn pgp public key available on request vogt koelln strasse rm mail bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de hamburg germany jerry han crc doc div of behavioural research jhan debra dgbt doc ca these are my opinions and my opinions only proud and frozen member of the mighty warriors band memories of those ve left behind still ringing in my ears genesis xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp org eff talk alt privacy clipper sci crypt newsgroups comp org eff talk alt privacy clipper sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu csus edu netcom com rlglende from rlglende netcom com robert lewis glendenning subject re organized lobbying for cryptography message id rlglendec5uqoi dbo netcom com organization netcom online communication services guest references apr20 husc3 harvard edu apr21 gems vcu edu apr21 tessi com date wed apr gmt lines generally an organization has influence in proportion to the narrowness of its objectives the number of members the strength of belief of its members this is why the pro and anti abortion groups are so strong narrow objectives lots of interested members who are real passionate for this reason mixing with the nra is probably bad idea it diffuses the interests of both groups it may well diminish the passion index of the combined organization it is not clear it would greatly enlarge the nra so believe new organization which may cooperate with nra where the two organization interest coincide is the optimum strategy lew lew glendenning rlglende netcom com perspective is worth iq points niels bohr or somebody like that newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net agate dog ee lbl gov network ucsd edu qualcom qualcomm com qualcom rdippold from rdippold qualcomm com ron asbestos dippold subject re do we need the clipper for cheap security message id rdippold qualcom originator rdippold qualcom qualcomm com sender news qualcomm com nntp posting host qualcom qualcomm com organization qualcomm inc san diego ca references aa05465 pizzabox demon co uk date wed apr gmt lines gtoal gtoal com graham toal writes can someone tell me if hardware compression is or is not needed to run digital speech down think it is ve heard it not lets say bit samples would raw data at the corresponding sampling rate be usable if not how fancy does the compression need to be good vocoder like ours will give you bits per second locked at full rate it variable rate voice activity vocoder if you want less quality cut that to bps half rate at full rate variable you could put two full duplex conversations on bis modem this requires dsp or asics though an rs has cpu that could probably do it in real time because it has the add and multiply instruction and few other dsp things if you want to do speech in real time you need about samples second for not very good voice with your bit samples isdn is bit samples second which is kbps you could do fast compression on that to get it down to kbps which is just about bis the quality at this point is very bleah but it should work now add in the time for your encryption method you re going to need sampling hardware which is no problem on new mac an amiga or pc with soundblaster card just because they re so popular and cheap you could also build simple adc the problem with the soundblaster is that it doesn seem to be full duplex you can sample and play backq at the same time making two way conversation bit tough the special hardware or more capable sound card may be required the only thing that worries me is that compression the soundblaster can do it automatically in hardware but other than that don have good feel for how processor intensive it is so can estimate how fast pc you need not all men who drink are poets some of us drink because we are not poets xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security pgp newsgroups sci crypt alt security pgp path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu swrinde sgiblab sgigate sgi rhyolite vjs from vjs rhyolite wpd sgi com vernon schryver subject re fighting the clipper initiative message id he1pb02 rhyolite wpd sgi com organization silicon graphics inc mountain view ca references qu0mt mlh access digex net strnlghtc5toc6 kiu netcom com date wed apr gmt lines in article strnlghtc5toc6 kiu netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes the federal reserve open market committee has successfully kept decisions from leaking for the statutory period until publication how are you sure of that weren there some recent studies that found corelations between not yet announced decisions and market changes aren there continuing early rumors of their deliberations even the department of agriculture has successfully kept crop forecasts from leaking prematurely sheesh remember the big scandal year or two or ago about exactly such leaks vernon schryver vjs sgi com xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy clipper newsgroups sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet well rab from rab well sf ca us bob bickford subject re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine message id c5ursm well sf ca us sender news well sf ca us nntp posting host well sf ca us organization whole earth lectronic link references c5sy1z td demon co uk apr21 ulysses att com tom apr21114536 amber ssd csd harris com date wed apr gmt lines in article tom apr21114536 amber ssd csd harris com tom ssd csd harris com tom horsley writes this isn intended to be flame or anything am just really curious how to manufacture these things while still maintaining the key escrow security without simply saying trust the manufacturer they won look without getting into the really thorny questions about reverse engineering and all of that let me just point out that there already exist gate arrays and suchlike that have what known as security fuse which can be programmed after you ve verified all other programming this makes it impossible to read out the programming of the device again ignoring the reverse engineering questions speaking from experience here had to completely reinvent one of my designs some six or seven years ago when the disk file was zapped the backups were all bad and the devices were unreadable because of the security fuses made me appreciate the value of printouts so on this point at least there not so much worry but whether or not we can get the chips made reliably and securely is really secondary to the question of whether use of the chip is itself likely to be secure methinks robert bickford hacker is any person who derives joy from rab well sf ca us discovering ways to circumvent limitations rab recognize that class of criminals and juvenile delinquents has taken to calling themselves hackers but consider them irrelevant to the true meaning of the word just as the mafia calls themselves businessmen but nobody pays that fact any attention rab path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu caen destroyer cs ubc ca unixg ubc ca kakwa ucs ualberta ca ersys ab from ab ersys edmonton ab ca allan brockman newsgroups sci crypt subject don have ftp live in canada how do get rsa ras my ataris message id jk2c3b1w165w ersys edmonton ab ca date wed apr mdt organization edmonton remote systems edmonton ab canada lines don have ftp and live in canada this means that it would be illeagle for citizen to send the program to me their gigerment wishes to restrict its dispersil but someone in europe must have ported coppy of rsa to the atarist by now how do get coppy of the rsa from non ftp news feed allan brockman ab ersys edmonton ab ca newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net wupost uwm edu linac att att out cbnewsh cbnewsh cb att com wcs from wcs anchor ho att com bill stewart subject re the clipper chip technical summary organization brought to you by the numbers and date tue apr gmt message id wcs apr20151344 rainier att com in reply to denning guvax acc georgetown edu message of apr references apr19 guvax acc georgetown edu sender news cbnewsh cb att com netnews administrator nntp posting host rainier ho att com lines in article apr19 guvax acc georgetown edu denning guvax acc georgetown edu writes prof denning description of skipjack mostly omitted chip structure the clipper chip contains classified bit block encryption algorithm called skipjack the algorithm uses bit keys compared with for the des and has rounds of scrambling compared with for the des it supports all des modes of operation throughput is mbits second an bit family key that is common to all chips bit serial number an bit secret key that unlocks all messages encrypted with the chip the key and message stream digitized voice are then fed into the clipper chip to produce two values the encrypted message stream and law enforcement block three questions it looks like each bits of input gives you bits of output bits bits bits bits bits do you really need to transmit all bits each time or do you only transmit the bits of wiretap block at the beginning all would be really obnoxious for bandwidth limited applications like cellular phones or even regular phones over how do the des modes interact with the two part output do the various feedback modes only apply to the message block or also to the wiretap block or if the wiretap block is only transmitted at the beginning does it get incorporated into everything through feedback modes but not during ecb mode does the clipper chip check the wiretap block itself does the block have to be present at all since the receiving chip doesn know the transmitter it presumably can check the validity of so it limited to checking the form of the wiretap block and maybe checking the serial number for reasonableness unless there some sort of back door structure that lets it recognize valid in that case can you replace the wiretap block with different wiretap block presumably an old valid one to avoid attracting attention the chip won do it so you postprocess the output regular people can do one with their own serial number and dummy key paranoid people can use someone else serial number on the other hand if could think of that solution so easily presumably the nsa could too have they done something to block it like use message encryption that really thanks pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com at bell labs m312 holmdel nj no from new jersey only work in cyberspace white house commect line fax path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu menudo uh edu menudo uh edu elee9sf from elee9sf menudo menudo uh edu karl barrus newsgroups sci crypt subject re once tapped your code is no good any more date apr gmt organization university of houston lines distribution na message id elee9sf apr21095141 menudo menudo uh edu references tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com qpg8finn982 dns1 nmsu edu bu edu strnlghtc5nrhw qb netcom com nntp posting host menudo uh edu in reply to strnlght netcom com message of sun apr gmt david sternlight writes trust something from the nsa long before trust something from some swiss or anbody japanese what this is an incredible statement the nsa tried to suppress public key crypto and rsa and yet they claim to encourage use of strong crypto for us citizens would you trust black box from the nsa versus an open system from elsewhere karl barrus elee9sf menudo uh edu preferred address barrus tree egr uh edu nextmail karl barrus elee9sf menudo uh edu preferred address barrus tree egr uh edu nextmail xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu swrinde cs utexas edu uunet tis com mjr from mjr tis com marcus ranum newsgroups sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy clipper subject re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip date apr gmt organization trusted information systems inc lines message id r4e9d pdo sol tis com references apr20 magnus acs ohio state edu apr20 ulysses att com apr21 lokkur dexter mi us nntp posting host sol tis com mean if we can imagine the machine that does trial nanosecond we can imagine the storage medium that could index and archive it think you have to do some massive data compression just to fit bit of key information on each primary particle of the known universe but hey it fun to imagine mjr xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt comp lang newsgroups sci crypt comp lang path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu utnut utgpu smhanaes from smhanaes gpu utcc utoronto ca wigglesworth subject freely distributable public key cryptography code where message id c5ua2j iki gpu utcc utoronto ca summary do you know organization utcc public access date wed apr gmt lines do you know of any freely distributable or code for public key cryptography such as rsa ve tried various archie searches to no avail thanks dan xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net chpc chpc org rboudrie from rboudrie chpc org rob boudrie subject re once tapped your code is no good any more message id apr21 chpc org organization center for high perf computing of wpi marlboro ma references apr17 clarinet com rwing uucp c5so84 hxv demon co uk distribution na date wed apr gmt lines in article c5so84 hxv demon co uk graham toal gtoal gtoal com writes in article rwing uucp pat rwing uucp pat myrto writes if the clinton clipper is so very good why not make its algrithm public so many people can exchange ideas and examine it rather than few isolated respected experts respected by whom for what perhaps one more time if they released the algorithm it would be possible for someone to come up with an implementation which was identical but lacking an escrowed key note that the press announcement mentioned that the algorithm was being kept secret for security of the key escrow system in this case security means an escrowed key for every clipper chip assuming you believed all that is said about the effective of the algorithm and the escrow system which would you buy chip from firm with the escrowed key second source chip from reputable firm with no key in government escrow there would obviously be powerful economic incentives for second source non escrowed vendor xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net ira uka de news dfn de rzsun2 informatik uni hamburg de fbihh bontchev from bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de vesselin bontchev subject re once tapped your code is no good any more message id bontchev fbihh sender news informatik uni hamburg de mr news reply to bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de organization virus test center university of hamburg references rwing uucp apr19 cs ucla edu rdippold qualcom apr21 ucsu colorado edu distribution na date wed apr gmt lines andersom spot colorado edu marc anderson writes methods this year crime bill will have teeth not bare gums clinton said in particular his administration will place strict controls on data formats and protocols and require the registration of so called cryptographic keys in the hope of denying drug dealers the ability to communicate in secret clinton said the approach could be used for crackdowns on other forms of underground economic activity such as the deficit causing tax evaders who live in luxury at the expense of our grandchildren and some people thought that am exaggerating when claiming that the cripple chip is just first step in totalitarian plot against the civil liberties in the usa it seems that ve even been an optimist the things are happening even faster than expected that another of the dirty tricks they used to apply on us under the communist regime do something secret then tell the people about is after the fact when nothing can be done any more and of course explaining them how much better the situation is now in my previous messages wrote that the americans should wake up and fight against the new proposal now it seems to me that it is already too late it has already happened the civil liberties have been violated no stollen from the american people while the most part of this people has been sleeping happily too sad regards vesselin vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center university of hamburg tel fax fachbereich informatik agn pgp public key available on request vogt koelln strasse rm mail bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de hamburg germany xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt privacy clipper newsgroups sci crypt alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net ira uka de news dfn de rzsun2 informatik uni hamburg de fbihh bontchev from bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de vesselin bontchev subject re would clipper make good cover for other encryption method message id bontchev fbihh sender news informatik uni hamburg de mr news reply to bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de organization virus test center university of hamburg references apr20 eff org eachus apr20140314 spectre mitre org strnlghtc5t42t j9b netcom com date wed apr gmt lines strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes some of the more notorious self styled dissidents here for example have already got their heads so high above the tall grass that they have little chance of getting clearance if there are many as er people in the usa who reason like the above then it should not be surprising that the current plot has been allowed to happen regards vesselin vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center university of hamburg tel fax fachbereich informatik agn pgp public key available on request vogt koelln strasse rm mail bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de hamburg germany xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy comp org eff talk newsgroups sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy comp org eff talk path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu csus edu netcom com grady from grady netcom com ef221 subject re the secret source of that announcement message id gradyc5uamw bng netcom com organization capriccioso newsreader tin version pl6 references apr21 leland stanford edu date wed apr gmt lines guess the cryptowranglers read this group too but of course knew that because it is so easy to do there is not single doubt in my mind that every byte that passes every significant gateway or bone is captured for the colligation of data about maybe your name is here maybe we should start newsgroup for the distribution of encrypted posts intended of members of affinity groups with shared private key for example at the coming up cypherpunks meeting private key corresponding to that particular meeting could be passed out by moderator minutes followup comments to other participants and so on could be posted to the alt encrypted group for the use of the people who attended communiques intended by the group for non attendees could of course just be signed using the private key but otherwises not encrypted starting alt encrypted newsgroup rather than just maintaining mailing lists is better for several reasons first it would be easier to archive for people who might join group late and who might like to easily read earlier posts second traffic analysis to know exactly to whom an affinity message is directed would be foiled three newsgroup is much more public and would serve to publicize available privacy measures on the internet and it would be fun to accumulate secret keyring full of such keys it beats giving out shirts as door prize we could send copy of alt encrypted directly to judge william sessions or admiral studeman to save them the time of having it collected for them grady netcom com ef221 e2 ad d3 d1 c6 f3 fc ac f7 xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt privacy clipper newsgroups sci crypt alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net agate linus linus mitre org bistromath mitre org ptrei from ptrei bistromath mitre org peter trei subject re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only message id apr21 linus mitre org sender news linus mitre org news service nntp posting host bistromath mitre org organization the mitre corporation references c5rrtd gz agora rain com warlord apr20175546 deathtongue mit edu strnlghtc5t4o3 k5p netcom com date wed apr gmt lines in article strnlghtc5t4o3 k5p netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes actually the govrnment is telling you that if you want to use their product the manufacturer actually better yet some trusted pair of escrow agencies has to have the key most of us already are in this situation our car makers have keys to our cars or can get them quickly from the vin number and have no doubt that if presented with court order they surrender copies to the government chances are that many locksmiths have the code numbers for house locks they ve installed and in an emergency can cut keys thus they also provide such keys to the government pursuant to court order of course nothing prevents you from buying new lock with cash and installing it yourself even modifying the core to match some arbitrary key is not difficult to do at home once knew someone who had fixed his locks in this way his house office and cars all took the same key which he took good care of the state has no difficulty gaining access to your safe deposit box if they have court order bad analogy very bad yours that is have you ever had safety deposit box they work on two key system the bank clerk has one and you have the other they are different keys the bank does not keep copy of your key if you lose it they have to drill out the lock and replace the door this is time consuming and expensive process which they will be happy to charge to your account this process is exactly analogous to having private key which is not in escrow system and the state having to crack your cipher to get the data please do not use false analogies peter trei ptrei mitre org xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp org eff talk alt privacy clipper sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu malgudi oar net caen uvaarpa gems vcu edu langford from langford gems vcu edu newsgroups comp org eff talk alt privacy clipper sci crypt subject re organized lobbying for cryptography message id apr21 gems vcu edu date apr references apr2003 silverton berkeley edu apr20 husc3 harvard edu organization medical college of virginia lines in article apr20 husc3 harvard edu kubo zariski harvard edu tal kubo writes having mentioned the possible dangers of unwelcome political associations would be remiss not to suggest something in the opposite direction gathering the support of the nra by emphasizing the rkba side of the issue as well as the first amendment side tal kubo math harvard edu hmmm this gave me an interesting idea how about this argument second amendment gives us the right to keep and bear arms strong cryptography is arms according to the government that why it so hard to export therefore we have constituitional right to strong cryptography however it likely to be as hard or harder to exercise this right as it is getting to exercise the other rights that the government is slowly restricting maybe the nra would be the best existing organization although think new one might be better but perhaps would take too long to start up would certainly join from the electronic desk of bob langford health sciences computing fax virginia commonwealth university mail langford gems vcu edu or langford vcuvax for bitnet xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet digex com digex com not for mail from steve access digex com steve brinich newsgroups sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy clipper subject re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip date apr organization express access online communications greenbelt md usa lines message id r3q2o jj3 access digex net references apr19 jarvis csri toronto edu apr20 ulysses att com c5sy1z td demon co uk apr21 ulysses att com nntp posting host access digex net thousands tens of thousands do some arithmetic please skipjack has possible keys we don yet know if all bits count that doesn worry me at all they re not going to cheat at something they can get caught at and key size is one of the things that can be verified externally feed lots of random key input pairs into the chip then see what happens to the output if the device is designed to use the key that registered with the feds don see how you can feed it different key if the user can change the key to any of the possibilities the main reason for regarding this proposal as unacceptable disappears xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech usenet ufl edu travis csd harris com grouper mkt csd harris com amber tom from tom ssd csd harris com tom horsley newsgroups sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy clipper subject re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip date apr organization harris computer systems division lines message id tom apr21114536 amber ssd csd harris com references apr19 jarvis csri toronto edu apr20 magnus acs ohio state edu apr20 ulysses att com c5sy1z td demon co uk apr21 ulysses att com nntp posting host amber ssd csd harris com in reply to smb research att com message of wed apr gmt don like the unit key generation process any better than you do however s1 and s2 are supposed to be under control of the same escrow agents if they can be trusted to keep the seed values secure they can be trusted to keep the half keys secure hope there is something don understand about this system but can someone tell me how these chips are going to be manufactured while maintaining each half key under total control of the separate escrow agencies don both halfs of the key have to come together in some form at the time the chip is constructed or is it built like fusable prom with the chip being sent to the st escrow agency to program its key then the nd agency to program its key but who invents the safeguards that prevent the nd agency from reading the information already programmed by the st this isn intended to be flame or anything am just really curious how to manufacture these things while still maintaining the key escrow security without simply saying trust the manufacturer they won look domain tahorsley csd harris com usmail tom horsley uucp uunet hcx1 tahorsley kingbird circle delray beach fl censorship is the only form of obscenity wait forgot government tobacco subsidies xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net noc near net lynx foghorn leghorn coe northeastern edu angel from angel foghorn leghorn coe northeastern edu kirill shklovsky subject re once tapped your code is no good any more message id apr21 lynx dac northeastern edu sender usenet lynx dac northeastern edu usenet dummy organization northeastern university references apr21 ucsu colorado edu bontchev fbihh apr21 rick dgbt doc ca distribution na date wed apr gmt lines in article apr21 rick dgbt doc ca jhan debra dgbt doc ca jerry han writes as one of the happily sleeping people would just like to ask this aren people just slightly overreacting to this or are we all of sudden going to draw parallels to nazi germany and communist russia the point of the matter is that yes this is serious problem but it is not the end of the world guess what we re doing something now you can do in communist country or nazi germany we re complaining about it or rather you re complaining about it and nobody is shooting at us or rather if they re shooting at me they have real bad aim guess what people you live in one of the few countries in the world where person can complain without getting shot at people are always complaining that somebody did this wrong or somebody did that wrong or whatever sit down and figure out two things what have they done right how much worse can it get and you ll find that you and are pretty damn lucky so let talk about it get some action going decide what going on but let not overreact us having the liberties to talk about this doesn make the problem go away it doesn make it right rather the opposite if we do not do anything about it you can bet it going to get worse angel foghorn leghorn coe northeastern edu btw these are my opinions and not that of any other entity my god its full of stars dave don know about you but we ve got company epidemic xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp org eff talk alt privacy clipper sci crypt newsgroups comp org eff talk alt privacy clipper sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu csus edu sfsuvax1 sfsu edu sphughes from sphughes sfsuvax1 sfsu edu shaun hughes subject re organized lobbying for cryptography message id apr21 csus edu sender news csus edu organization san francisco state university references r2gb5 h0r transfer stratus com r3jgbinn35i eli cs yale edu distribution inet date wed apr gmt lines in article r3jgbinn35i eli cs yale edu jgfoot minerva cis yale edu writes tarl neustaedter tarl coyoacan sw stratus com wrote it means that the eff public stance is complicated with issues irrelevant to the encryption issue per se there may well be people who care about the encryption issue who don care to associate themselves with the network erotica issue or may even disagree with the eff position perhaps these encryption only types would defend the digitized porn if it was posted encrypted these issues are not as seperable as you maintain now why would anyone post anything encrypted encryption is only of use between persons who know how to decrypt the data and why should care what other people look at what does concern me is the continued erosion of my constitutional rights amendments ii iv and to note few shaun hughes facts are stupid things sphughes sfsuvax1 sfsu edu ronald reagan republican national finger for pgp public key convention xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp org eff talk alt privacy clipper sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com nigel msen com yale edu minerva cis yale edu jgfoot from jgfoot minerva cis yale edu josh goldfoot newsgroups comp org eff talk alt privacy clipper sci crypt subject re organized lobbying for cryptography followup to comp org eff talk alt privacy clipper sci crypt date apr gmt organization yale university lines distribution inet message id r3s1vinn5gj eli cs yale edu references apr21 csus edu reply to jgfoot minerva cis yale edu nntp posting host minerva cis yale edu newsreader tin version minerva pl9 shaun hughes sphughes sfsuvax1 sfsu edu wrote in article r3jgbinn35i eli cs yale edu jgfoot minerva cis yale edu writes deletion perhaps these encryption only types would defend the digitized porn if it was posted encrypted these issues are not as seperable as you maintain now why would anyone post anything encrypted encryption is only of use between persons who know how to decrypt the data and why should care what other people look at was responding to another person tarl neustaedter who held that the eff wasn the best organization to fight for crytography rights since the eff also supports the right to distribute pornography over the internet something some crypto people might object to in other words he implying that there are people who will protect any speech just as long as it is encrypted xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel news intercon com digex com digex com not for mail from steve access digex com steve brinich newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee subject re once tapped your code is no good any more date apr organization express access online communications greenbelt md usa lines distribution na message id r4hk4 snu access digex net references apr17 clarinet com rwing uucp apr19 cs ucla edu rwing uucp nntp posting host access digex net agreed this is like the bay of pigs fiasco planned by the eisenhower administration but given the final green light by kennedy to be sure hen it all went down kennedy was at least man enough to take full responsibility which is not what expect from slick willie clinton xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net agate headwall stanford edu nntp stanford edu arc from arc leland stanford edu andrew richard conway subject re once tapped your code is no good any more message id apr21 leland stanford edu sender news leland stanford edu mr news organization society for the conservation of momentum references apr21 ucsu colorado edu bontchev fbihh apr21 rick dgbt doc ca distribution na date wed apr gmt lines in article apr21 rick dgbt doc ca jhan debra dgbt doc ca jerry han writes in article bontchev fbihh as one of the happily sleeping people would just like to ask this aren people just slightly overreacting to this or are we all of sudden going to draw parallels to nazi germany and communist russia yes reasonable parallels though don think russia ever claimed to be communist the point of the matter is that yes this is serious problem but it is not the end of the world guess what we re doing something now you can do in communist country or nazi germany we re complaining about must protest your in communist country how do you know there haven been any and are unlikely to ever be any in some socialist dictatorships you can whilst in some socialist democracies such as france or australia you can of course some people may disagree about france australia being socialist it or rather you re complaining about it and nobody is shooting at us yet or rather if they re shooting at me they have real bad aim guess what people you live in one of the few countries in the world where person can complain without getting shot at in some circumstances was at public meeting last night in the usa where protester who was very nice and calm and just said before the speaker started to beware of his opinions was forced out of the meeting by two armed policemen there are lot of things that one cannot do in the usa you may not notice them but as an australian visitor notice them people are always complaining that somebody did this wrong or somebody did that wrong or whatever sit down and figure out two things what have they done right how much worse can it get and you ll find that you and are pretty damn lucky yes we are lucky at the moment hope that is still true in few years time because it didn just happen it required concious effort so let talk about it get some action going decide what going on but let not overreact of course don over react but don under react andrew disclaimer all my opinions are my own and do not represent the society for the conservation of momentum or any other group hope don lose my student visa as result of these opinions andrew conway arc leland stanford edu phone usa xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy clipper newsgroups sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov news claremont edu jarthur claremont edu ebrandt from ebrandt jarthur claremont edu eli brandt subject re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip message id c5uup3 wp news claremont edu sender news news claremont edu the news system organization harvey mudd college claremont ca references apr20 ulysses att com c5sy1z td demon co uk apr21 ulysses att com date wed apr gmt lines in article apr21 ulysses att com smb research att com steven bellovin writes remember that they ve promised to let committee of outside experts see the cryptosystem design hope there are some silicon jocks on the committee who can follow the algorithm through to hardware while doubt the nsa would pull any monkey business on this point they have to expect that the chip will be reverse engineered sooner or later it an obvious opportunity to introduce additional holes steve bellovin pgp key by finger or mail eli ebrandt jarthur claremont edu xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp org eff talk alt privacy clipper sci crypt newsgroups comp org eff talk alt privacy clipper sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net uunet tessi george from george tessi com george mitchell subject re organized lobbying for cryptography message id apr21 tessi com organization test systems strategies inc beaverton oregon references apr2003 silverton berkeley edu apr20 husc3 harvard edu apr21 gems vcu edu date wed apr gmt lines langford gems vcu edu writes in article apr20 husc3 harvard edu kubo zariski harvard edu tal kubo writes having mentioned the possible dangers of unwelcome political associations would be remiss not to suggest something in the opposite direction gathering the support of the nra by emphasizing the rkba side of the issue as well as the first amendment side hmmm this gave me an interesting idea how about this argument second amendment gives us the right to keep and bear arms strong cryptography is arms according to the government that why it so hard to export therefore we have constituitional right to strong cryptography maybe the nra would be the best existing organization think new organization would be much better idea as the nra carries as much undesireable baggage for me as the eff and cpsr do for others are any hot shot reputable organizers reading this message if an effective group comes into existence it can count on me signing up george mitchell george tessi com xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp org eff talk alt privacy clipper sci crypt newsgroups comp org eff talk alt privacy clipper sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu caen sol ctr columbia edu eff johnson eff org acg from charles gross acg eff org subject have seen the lobby and it is us message id apr21 eff org xxmessage id a7faf1313a01ac87 johnson eff org xxdate wed apr gmt sender usenet eff org nntp news poster nntp posting host johnson eff org organization electronic frontier foundation useragent nuntius v1 d17 references apr20 husc3 harvard edu apr21 magnus acs ohio state edu gfpj4tb0bwwb0dww02 transarc com date wed apr gmt lines in article apr21 gems vcu edu langford gems vcu edu writes however it likely to be as hard or harder to exercise this right as it is getting to exercise the other rights that the government is slowly restricting maybe the nra would be the best existing organization although think new one might be better but perhaps would take too long to start up would certainly join the nra is successful because among number of things on the drop of hat they can get congresspersons office flooded with postcards faxes and phone calls certainly with our way cool internet powers of organization we can act in the same way if such action is appropriate as long as we are kept informed of events anyone on this bboard can make call to action hopefully we re strong enough community to act on those calls realize this is little optomistic and glad eff is working in the loop on these issues but don underestimate the potential of the net for political action adam speak for myself xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy clipper newsgroups sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net uunet harlequin com andyl from andyl harlqn co uk andy latto subject re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip in reply to smb research att com message of wed apr gmt message id andyl apr21114940 epcot harlqn co uk sender usenet harlequin com usenet maintainer nntp posting host epcot harlequin com organization harlequin limited cambridge england references apr19 jarvis csri toronto edu apr20 magnus acs ohio state edu apr20 ulysses att com c5sy1z td demon co uk apr21 ulysses att com date wed apr gmt lines in article apr21 ulysses att com smb research att com steven bellovin writes in article c5sy1z td demon co uk graham toal gtoal gtoal com writes in article apr20 ulysses att com smb research att com steven bellovin writes thousands tens of thousands do some arithmetic please skipjack has possible keys we don yet know if all bits count that doesn worry me at all they re not going to cheat at something they can get caught at and key size is one of the things that can be verified externally feed lots of random key input pairs into the chip then try flipping random key bits and see what happens to the output we already know what should happen about half the output bits should vary on average from bit key change or input change if they were out to build weak cryptosystem it might be the case that some of the bits are much less powerful than others in the sense that they only enter into the encryption very late in the game by contrast des was designed to use each key bit as early as possible the output change rate appears as early as round again though don think nsa is going to cheat that crudely they re likely to get caught consider cryptosytem that starts out by xoring bits and and not using either of these bits except through this xor this system makes early use of every bit but an exhaustive key search would now only have keys to search your test by varying single key bits wouldn turn up anything interesting remember that they ve promised to let committee of outside experts see the cryptosystem design if you assume something des like biased subkey generation schedule will stick out like sore thumb the algorithm suggest above would stick out like sore thumb but sure could design system with more subtle key redundancy which was well hidden but would still make an exhaustive key search take far less than encryptions don believe your claim that the real keysize can be verified externally andy latto andyl harlequin com newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net noc near net uunet pipex uknet mcsun chsun bernina caronni from caronni nessie cs id ethz ch germano caronni subject re do we need the clipper for cheap security message id apr21 bernina ethz ch sender news bernina ethz ch usenet news system organization swiss federal institute of technology eth zurich ch references aa05465 pizzabox demon co uk date wed apr gmt lines in article aa05465 pizzabox demon co uk gtoal gtoal com graham toal writes can someone tell me if hardware compression is or is not needed to run digital speech down think it is ve heard it not lets say bit samples would raw data at the corresponding sampling rate be usable if not how fancy does the compression need to be as far as know isdn call it swissnet here and it being plugged in it bit hz gives you one channel of kbit sec guess you should not go below sampling rate of hz if you want to have same quality as on an analog line anybody knows compression algorithms factors for voice greetings germano caronni instruments register only through things they re designed to register space still contains infinite unknowns pgp key id germano caronni caronni nessie cs id ethz ch fd560ccf586f3da747ea3c94dd01720f path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net uunet pipex ibmpcug mantis tony from tony lezard tony mantis co uk newsgroups sci crypt subject re text of white house announcement and as on clipper chip encryp message id nl4c3b5w165w mantis co uk date wed apr references aa13170 pizzabox demon co uk distribution world organization mantis consultants cambridge uk lines gtoal gtoal com graham toal writes whatever happens though the effect of this new chip will be to make private crypto stand out like sore thumb only if this chip catches on which means alternatives have to be developed which will only happen if clipper is discredited tony lezard is tony mantis co uk pgp public key available from key or tony mantis co uk uknet ac uk servers such as pgp public keys demon co uk or even arl10 phx cam ac uk c85783f bbea0c b86cf9c6 a5fa172 xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet pipex ibmpcug mantis news from mathew mathew mantis co uk newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee subject re text of white house announcement and as on clipper chip encryption message id q5 rusnews w165w mantis co uk date wed apr references apr16 leland stanford edu apr18 monu6 cc monash edu au organization mantis consultants cambridge uk newsreader rusnews v1 lines bena dec05 cs monash edu au ben aveling writes don forget you are in the country that wouldn let the russians buy apple ii because of security concerns that nothing they wouldn let the british buy inmos transputer systems because of security concerns and we designed the damn things mathew xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy clipper newsgroups sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com darwin sura net haven umd edu wam umd edu psionic from psionic wam umd edu haywood blowme subject new encryption message id apr21 wam umd edu sender usenet wam umd edu usenet news system nntp posting host rac3 wam umd edu organization university of maryland college park references apr20 ulysses att com apr21 lokkur dexter mi us r4e9d pdo sol tis com date wed apr gmt lines as promised spoke today with the company mentioned in washington times article about the clipper chip announcement the name of the company is secure communicatiions technology information will be given at the end of this message on how to contact them basically they are disturbed about the announcement for many reasons that we are more specifically however mr bryen of secure communications brought to light many points that might interest most of the readers his belief is that at was made known of the clipper well before the rest of the industry this is for several reasons several of which are company of at size could never be able to make decision to use the new chip on the same day it was announced months ago they proposed using their own chip for at secure telephone devices at basically blew them off as being not interested at all this stuck them as strange until now also spoke with art melnick their cryptographer he expressed several concerns over the new clipper chip the obvious backdoor will be able to let many people decrypt the code once the key is released to authorities the security of the crypto system is lost forever these keys can end up in the hands of any agency of the government the fact that the escrowed keys never change means that the algorithm is vulnerable over time to an attacker the classified algorithm may hide another backdoor but he feels that it is probably to keep people from forging fake serial numbers or changing the keys themselves additionally he feels that the nsa has probably spent enough time and money in working on way to keep this chip from being reversed engineered that he feels that reverse engineering it will be very difficult to do he feels that they have developed suitable technique to protect the chip from this attack also he feels that the chip is hardware encoded with the algorithm and not microcoded onto the chip additonally spoke with mr melnick about their algorithm he couldn tell me much about their new agorithm because it hasn been patented yet however he told me little the algorithm will be released for public review after patents have been granted for it this is so the crypto community can see that it is secure the algorithm is called nea for new encryption algorithm the details were sketchy because now it is held as trade secret until the patent was issued but was told that it will incorporate the following it will have fast encryption of data exact specs not given but mr melnick stated much faster than what an rs can put out it is symmetric cipher just like idea and des it will use bit data blocks for encryption like des and idea the key length was not given to me but mr melnick states that it is adujustable and is more than adequate for security the algorithm is written in and assembler in software form and can be ported to many platforms unlike the the clipper chip which is hardware only and cannot be made into software this consider definite plus for the nea for widespread use the algorithm will accomodate public key distribution techniques such as rsa or diffie hellman this will also be supported in the hardware chip right now the projected cost of the nea chip will be about dollars for each clipper will run each chip that is if it is produced enough which probably won happen they currently sell program called com that uses the algorithm and special streaming protocol that does not divide the encrypted data into blocks this could prevent plaintext attacks if you know what the block header is this program operates at all supported rs speeds and uses the software implementation of the algorithm most importantly it does not have backdoor right now the company is afraid that the new clipper chip will put them out of business this is very real possibility so they really need help in stopping the clipper chip from becoming standard if you want to contact them they can be reached at secure communications technology georgia ave suite silver spring md talked to mr bryen who represents the company he can answer any questions you have any factual errors occurring in this write up are my own and apologize for them ahead of time psionic wam umd edu fight the wiretap chip ask me how craig rowland amiga pgp key available those who would give up liberty for by request security deserve neither newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net ira uka de rz uni karlsruhe de stepsun uni kl de uklirb posthorn vier neuhaus from neuhaus vier informatik uni kl de stephan neuhaus hiwi mattern subject re do we need the clipper for cheap security message id neuhaus vier sender news posthorn informatik uni kl de news system account nntp posting host vier informatik uni kl de organization university of kaiserslautern germany references aa05465 pizzabox demon co uk date wed apr gmt lines gtoal gtoal com graham toal writes can someone tell me if hardware compression is or is not needed to run digital speech down think it is ve heard it not lets say bit samples would raw data at the corresponding sampling rate be usable if not how fancy does the compression need to be note am not cable freak so might have completely misunderstood what you said also my math is frequently noted for being wrong so you ll better check the calculations yourself assume that means bits so if we assume one start and one stopbit and no protocol overhead the effective number of bytes per second is let also assume that you do not want to transmit your speech in stereo so that you can send samples sec this corresponds to nyquist frequency of hz which should be too low especially if you think about the bit low quality sound furthermore your converter will probably not present you with signal that has been cut off at hz but will instead alias in all the higher frequencies although you can definitely build filter to overcome that problem on the other hand speech should be easily compressible for example you could form power spectra or you could simply band pass filter and then linearize the fourier transforms it won be cd quality sound but it ll be discernible the power spectrum method is very good in that respect have once programmed such software compressor and compression rates of with relative errors due to linearization of less than were common although must say that these were musical sounds not speech have fun stephan neuhaus informatik uni kl de sig closed for inventory please leave your pickaxe outside pgp public key available on request note the expiration date xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet news larc nasa gov news larc nasa gov usenet from palmer larc nasa gov michael palmer newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee subject re once tapped your code is no good any more date apr gmt organization nasa langley research center hampton va lines distribution inet message id r3u00inn17q rave larc nasa gov references apr17 clarinet com rwing uucp c5so84 hxv demon co uk apr21 chpc org nntp posting host oldtown larc nasa gov in article apr21 chpc org rboudrie chpc org rob boudrie writes in article c5so84 hxv demon co uk graham toal gtoal gtoal com writes in article rwing uucp pat rwing uucp pat myrto writes if the clinton clipper is so very good why not make its algrithm public so many people can exchange ideas and examine it rather than few isolated respected experts respected by whom for what perhaps one more time if they released the algorithm it would be possible for someone to come up with an implementation which was identical but lacking an escrowed key note that the press announcement mentioned that the algorithm was being kept secret for security of the key escrow system in this case security means an escrowed key for every clipper chip assuming you believed all that is said about the effective of the algorithm and the escrow system which would you buy chip from firm with the escrowed key second source chip from reputable firm with no key in government escrow there would obviously be powerful economic incentives for second source non escrowed vendor but what about second sources for pin compatible non clipper algorithm chips that also have escrowed keys if reputable firm produces chip with escrowed key that is pop in replacement for the clipper chip in my phone and uses an algorithm that is widely known and evaluated and trusted then what the problem the clipper is going to be reverse engineered anyway by any organization with sufficient resources can you say billions of cocaine dollars so those drug dealers they re so worried about will be slipping through the cracks we law abiding non incredibly wealthy citizens naturally will not have this recourse but claiming that the algorithm can be released to prevent people from using non key escrowed chips is plain deceitful analysis of the chip output will provide information on the necessary headers and whatnot so the bad guys could build chips using different algorithm and still not escrow their keys or they could just buy bunches of cheap phones at mart every week and play swap the clipper chip with their cellular phone every day michael palmer man is crazy who writes secret in any palmer larc nasa gov other way than one which will conceal it ripem key on server from the vulgar roger bacon newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net chpc chpc org rboudrie from rboudrie chpc org rob boudrie subject re how to detect use of an illegal cipher message id apr21 chpc org organization center for high perf computing of wpi marlboro ma references qn74ninni38 golden kaleida com betel camelot wv5 rpi edu date wed apr gmt lines as for my impressions of the whole scheme it seems that instead of trying to ban strong crypto they are trying to co opt it their contention that they need to keep the algorythm secret to protect the security of the key registration suggests possible inherent weakness to the algorythm more likely is that they dont want anyone constructing black market devices which dont have the keys registered anyone else notice that in their session they preventing black market chips non escrowed keys is exactly what they mean by protecting the security of the key escrow system there are two parts to the security of such system preventing decruption by unauthorized personel assuring that the gummit can always decrypt clipper traffic when it authorizes itself to do so of course the ministry of propoganda will do lot of tallking about and very little about rob boudrie rboudrie chpc org ps anyone care to guess what encryption scheme the gov is using on its newly formed database of anarch cryptists who oppose this entire lunacy path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net usc news service uci edu beckman com dsg4 dse beckman com rubin newsgroups sci crypt subject re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only message id rubin dsg4 dse beckman com from rubin dsg4 dse beckman com arthur rubin date apr gmt references almaden ibm com r0ausinni01 senator bedfellow mit edu apr20 shearson com r47l1inn8gq senator bedfellow mit edu organization beckman instruments inc nntp posting host dsg4 dse beckman com lines in r47l1inn8gq senator bedfellow mit edu jfc athena mit edu john carr writes in most cases information you come by properly is yours to use as you wish but there are certainly exceptions if you write paper which includes sufficiently detailed information on how to build nuclear weapon it is classified as understand the law nuclear weapons design is automatically classified even if you do the work yourself believe you are then not allowed to read your own paper this has now been thrown out by the courts the progressive case less serious example if you tell drivers about speed trap they are about to run into you can be fined even though you might argue that you broke no law when you discovered the location of the policeman the charge is interfering with police officer which is quite similar what you would be doing by reverse engineering the clipper chip this is outright illegal it does violate the first amendment if you would give case in which your speed trap example has been upheld by the courts arthur rubin rubin dsg4 dse beckman com work beckman instruments brea mcimail com compuserve com arthur pnet01 cts com personal my opinions are my own and do not represent those of my employer path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net usc news service uci edu beckman com dsg4 dse beckman com rubin newsgroups sci crypt subject re once tapped your code is no good any more message id rubin dsg4 dse beckman com from rubin dsg4 dse beckman com arthur rubin date apr gmt references bu edu strnlghtc5nrhw qb netcom com elee9sf apr21095141 menudo menudo uh edu strnlghtc5uij4 netcom com distribution na organization beckman instruments inc nntp posting host dsg4 dse beckman com lines in strnlghtc5uij4 netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes in article elee9sf apr21095141 menudo menudo uh edu elee9sf menudo menudo uh edu karl barrus writes would you trust black box from the nsa versus an open system from elsewhere absolutely if were assured by someone trusted that the black box was more secure have nothing to conceal from the government but would like to be sure that any russian japanese french or other competitors for my services can read my traffic like to be sure that competitive bid information was safe from commercial competitors and foreign governments which would aid them believe the nsa has identical motivations with respect to my activities the president and many other senior government officials have made it very clear that they share these motivations thus trust them on the coincidence of interests argument as well as on basic trust in their professionalism and high confidence in their skills david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted nothing but errors and omissions here arthur rubin rubin dsg4 dse beckman com work beckman instruments brea mcimail com compuserve com arthur pnet01 cts com personal my opinions are my own and do not represent those of my employer path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu wupost csus edu netcom com netcomsv metaflow netcomsv mbeckman mbeckman from mbeckman mbeckman mbeckman com mel beckman newsgroups sci crypt subject re text of white house announcement and as on clipper chip encryption date tue apr pst organization beckman software engineering message id vkcd4j mbeckman mbeckman com reply to mbeckman mbeckman com distribution na world mailer uaccess lite macintosh release v5 lines in article apr17 clarinet com sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee brad clarinet com brad templeton writes let assume for the moment that the system really is secure unless you get both halves of the encryption key from the two independent escrow houses let say you even trust the escrow houses one is the aclu and the other is the eff and not entirely joking about those two names the problem with let assume reasoning is that taken to the extreme and you re close you arrive at let assume this is perfectly ok the assumptions you make are big ones if the system is really secure then why does the government have to keep the algorithm secret there are plenty of encryption algorithms that don depend upon nondisclosure to be secure so why in the world use one that does there are reasons of course but certainly can think of any honest ones next you assume we can trust the escrow houses but the last time checked every single branch of government has experienced unauthorized disclosure corruption and even fabrication of supposedly secure data the govt is saying yeah but now we re serious so you can trust us bullcrypt and finally although you didn state it explicitly you implicitly assume that the warrant mechanism in this country is safe and reasonable the case in ventura county of man shot and killed by officers serving deliberately fraudulant warrant tells me that the govt has long ways to go on this score remember that all this is to catch the drug dealers right as others have pointed out the current proposal will if deployed render truly secure encryption much more expensive and inconvenient than uncle sam brand who will be able to afford and be sufficiently motivated to purchase this expensive inconvenient higher protection somebody with lots of extra cash the following is more true than ever when strong encryption is outlawed only outlaws will have strong encryption mel beckman internet mbeckman mbeckman com beckman software engineering compuserve ventura ca voice fax you can observe lot just by watching yogi bera path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu wupost csus edu netcom com netcomsv metaflow netcomsv mbeckman mbeckman from mbeckman mbeckman mbeckman com mel beckman newsgroups sci crypt subject re an open letter to mr clinton date tue apr pst organization beckman software engineering message id vkcsbl mbeckman mbeckman com reply to mbeckman mbeckman com distribution world mailer uaccess lite macintosh release v5 lines in article strnlghtc5m2cv hx netcom com sci crypt strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes here simple way to convert the clipper proposal to an unexceptionable one make it voluntary that is you get high quality secure nsa classified technology if you agree to escrow your key otherwise you are on your own david as an economist sure you can see the flaws in this logic if the naive market is flooded with proprietary but weak encryption then truly strong encryption will be unable to compete suppose the govt had secret tv broadcast standard and then sold tvs below cost private industry has better standard but it not as widespread due to the govt early flooding of the market with cheap proprietary sets even though the industry technology is better the programming is being broadcast to the govt unduplicatable standard who could compete the other flaw of course is that making something voluntary today ensures that it will be voluntary in the future went to renew my ca drivers license last week and was required not only to give my ssn but to produce an ssn card to veryify the number note that federal law once said that no state or local govt could ever require the use of ssns for drivers license registration specifically do not trust the govt that says trust me on this even though we could have an arrangement that doesn require your trust something is big time fishy if you look more carefully you ll see it mel mel beckman internet mbeckman mbeckman com beckman software engineering compuserve ventura ca voice fax you can observe lot just by watching yogi bera xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt comp org acm newsgroups sci crypt comp org acm path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu wupost csus edu netcom com netcomsv metaflow rschnapp from rschnapp metaflow com russ schnapp subject re once tapped your code is no good any more message id c5udix b94 metaflow com sender usenet metaflow com nntp posting host habu organization metaflow technologies inc references tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com apr17 clarinet com rwing uucp c5so84 hxv demon co uk rdippold qualcom date wed apr gmt lines it might be nice to cut out the ad hominem attacks on prof denning mr sternlight etc if you have something objective to say about their views go ahead and say it subject to point personal attacks reflect more on the attacker more than on the attackee throw light not heat restrict the discussion to appropriate newsgroups submit that comp org acm and comp org ieee are not appropriate for this discussion you have now made subscribers to these newsgroups aware of the issue if they want to know more or participate in the discussion they can easily join sci crypt comp security misc alt security or comp org eff talk russ schnapp email netcom metaflow rschnapp or rschnapp metaflow com or rschnapp bix com metaflow technologies voice x230 fax la jolla california unless otw specified speaking only for myself path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu wupost csus edu netcom com netcomsv metaflow netcomsv mbeckman mbeckman from mbeckman mbeckman mbeckman com mel beckman newsgroups sci crypt subject re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow date tue apr pst organization beckman software engineering message id vkddvn mbeckman mbeckman com reply to mbeckman mbeckman com distribution world mailer uaccess lite macintosh release v5 lines in article apr17 clarinet com sci crypt brad clarinet com brad templeton writes interestingly enough in designing the escrow we may want to use some rather unusual technology such as sealed boxes of paper or destructive read memory rather than typical computer databases which is fun for database of hundreds of millions of keys to me larger problem is that once disclosed your keys could be used to decrypt any previously recorded conversations gather that from this proposal warrant would be required to get the keys but not to collect conversations consider the scenario where an agency collects preemptively all encrypted conversations for certain people likely to be targets and not necessarily legitimate targets then arranges for some unrelated incident that can trigger warrant your honor we know that the suspect has received calls from noted crime figure bugsy butthead said calls arranged by the agency and we must therefore have this warrant to determine whether this suspect in sensitive govt post is corrupt suppose that it is conceivable that there are session keys involved somewhere but that doesn seem likely if there are why wouldn the technical overview mention them when it goes to such details as the number of bits held by each escrow authority this scheme is full of holes and stinks to high heaven mel mel beckman internet mbeckman mbeckman com beckman software engineering compuserve ventura ca voice fax you can observe lot just by watching yogi bera path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net agate dog ee lbl gov network ucsd edu munnari oz au mel dit csiro au its csiro au dmssyd syd dms csiro au metro sunb ocs mq edu au laurel ocs mq edu au ifarqhar from ifarqhar laurel ocs mq edu au ian farquhar newsgroups sci crypt subject re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only date apr gmt organization macquarie university sydney australia lines message id r4iau g44 sunb ocs mq edu au references c5qy3m de3 agora rain com almaden ibm com r0ausinni01 senator bedfellow mit edu nntp posting host laurel ocs mq edu au in article r0ausinni01 senator bedfellow mit edu jfc athena mit edu john carr writes the chip and algorithm are classified if you reverse engineer it and tell people you are likely to go to jail don find this credible argument for two reasons one you have supplied below unless care about entering the usa at any time in the future eg the taiwanese backyard cloners who btw have been known to decap custom silicon and reproduce it on daughterboards when pirating high profit arcade machines and the like who wouldn care less am not going to care much about us confidentiality am only people like the real me who does care about travelling to various countries for business reasons will sit up and follow laws like this but would contend that we re not the main threat also have grave doubts whether an algorythm widely distributed in silicon could possibly be called classified it like handing out military secrets to the whole world in envelopes marked don open me can imagine several credible defences which could be employed if it came to trial one would be the stupidity of the government actions perhaps some foreign governments or corporations could help us out by cracking the system outside the usa the us government could probably stop importation of clone hardware but software implementation should be practical amusing thought could they have employed an algorythm which is infeasable for fast software implementation but which is easy in custom hardware in des the extensive use of permutation tables trivial in hardware you just swap bus lines but relatively slow in software have had big effect on the speed difference between hardware and software implementations of that cipher indeed suspect that lucifer designers were well aware that it would be and approved certain algorythms usually parallel search algorythms can be very slow in software yet can fly in custom hardware have no proof of their employment in clipper it is pure conjecture however as software implementation of this cipher is something that its designers would have been trying to avoid at all costs then the inclusion of such techniques seems credible hmmm also wonder what intergraph thinks about the use of the name clipper for this device ian farquhar phone office of computing services fax macquarie university nsw also australia email ifarqhar laurel ocs mq edu au path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com network ucsd edu munnari oz au mel dit csiro au its csiro au dmssyd syd dms csiro au metro sunb ocs mq edu au laurel ocs mq edu au ifarqhar from ifarqhar laurel ocs mq edu au ian farquhar newsgroups sci crypt subject re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only date apr gmt organization macquarie university sydney australia lines message id r4g7l fdl sunb ocs mq edu au references c5qy3m de3 agora rain com almaden ibm com nntp posting host laurel ocs mq edu au in article almaden ibm com ameline vnet ibm com ian ameline writes also believe that someone will reverse engineer the clipper chip and knowlege of the algorithm will likely be fairly widespread any back doors or weaknesses would further discredit the scheme and help grow the market demand for secure alternative must admit that this point has been running through my mind for most of the discussion one the dice are out there it won be long before someone decaps it and after bit of work has full details of the clipper algorythm this isn trivial to do but then again it is not impossibly difficult either any half way decent vlsi design student should be able to take photograph of technology he is familiar with and given description of the input output control and supply lines figure out the function of various subsystems on the die indeed this is not an uncommon exercise performed during training because it makes you think about design decisions made by other designers could speculate that these chips are going to be manufactured using tamperproof carriers unlikely such techniques are very expensive and this thing is supposed to be relatively cheap to produce or that there will be some legal or legislative framework to prevent publication of the algorythm unlikely please correct me if am wrong but aren these supposed to be sold internationally suppose that the most likely reason the algorythm is remaining secret for the moment is that some idiot bureaucrat untrammeled by the realities of the situation decided that well we should keep it secret because it is supposed to be secret isn it just some random thoughts ian farquhar phone office of computing services fax macquarie university nsw also australia email ifarqhar laurel ocs mq edu au xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net noc near net uunet das wang com wang news from lyle seaman transarc com subject re once tapped your code is no good any more organization mail to news gateway at wang labs distribution na date wed apr gmt message id qfpr74z0bwwbidweyf transarc com references rdippold qualcom apr21 ucsu colorado edu bontchev fbihh apr21 rick dgbt doc ca sender news wang com lines jhan debra dgbt doc ca jerry han writes the point of the matter is that yes this is serious problem but it is not the end of the world guess what we re doing something now you can do in communist country or nazi germany or john edgar hoover usa we re complaining about it or rather you re complaining about it and nobody is shooting at us yet guess what people you live in one of the few countries in the world where person can complain without getting shot at yet people are always complaining that somebody did this wrong or somebody did that wrong or whatever sit down and figure out two things what have they done right how much worse can it get and you ll find that you and are pretty damn lucky so far so let talk about it get some action going decide what going on but let not overreact what harm is there in overreacting this may be the largest single threat to civil liberties yet in my lifetime the us has done some pretty heinous things in the past and we haven yet recovered from all of them there certainly seems to be historical trend towards less liberty with occasional perturbations time to break out the quotes from american political radicals lyle transarc grant street the gulf tower pittsburgh there are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by the gradual and silent encroachment of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpation james madison xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy comp org eff talk path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net bogus sura net jhunix hcf jhu edu fmsrl7 lynx unm edu dns1 nmsu edu amolitor from amolitor nmsu edu andrew molitor newsgroups sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy comp org eff talk subject re the secret source of that announcement date apr gmt organization department of mathematical sciences lines distribution inet message id r3vjhinn5iq dns1 nmsu edu references apr21 leland stanford edu gradyc5uamw bng netcom com nntp posting host moink nmsu edu in article gradyc5uamw bng netcom com grady netcom com ef221 writes guess the cryptowranglers read this group too but of course knew that because it is so easy to do there is not single doubt in my mind that every byte that passes every significant gateway or bone is captured for the colligation of data about maybe your name is here really like these claims where did they come from we hear practically daily that the nsa monitors oh everything they can crack anything they never release cryptosystem they couldn crack where do people get these fascinating facts the puzzle palace if you can get it for buck nd hand it must be true eh pretty sure the nsa is supposed to among many other things provide high quality cryptosystems to variety of places don recall reading anywhere reliable that they re supposed to monitor my phonecalls monitor usenet provide only cryptosystems they can easily crack etc etc this is not to say that they don they might but you don know that they do and you have no evidence that they do for almost all values of you it follows therefore that for most values of you your claims about the nsa border on paranoia andrew xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt privacy alt privacy clipper alt security comp security misc newsgroups sci crypt alt privacy alt privacy clipper alt security comp privacy comp security misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu swrinde elroy jpl nasa gov news aero org usasoc soc mil usasoc soc mil rbrand from rbrand usasoc soc mil raymond brand subject clipper chip facts request message id apr21 usasoc soc mil sender news usasoc soc mil organization is nice thing date wed apr gmt lines having read the various clipper announcements on the net over the last few days and lot of uninformed speculation about the chip its uses government plots etc have the following questions what does the clipper chip actually implement just the skipjack cryptographic algorithm or does it also implement chip to chip communications protocol if it does implement communications protocol can it be used as just crypt chip also where can the chip specifications and spec sheets be obtained who may purchase them and under what conditions are there restrictions as to how the chip may be used in system the security of the algorithm and the encrypted communications does not appear to require that the family key be secret why is it secret what happens when the family key becomes well known if it secret to make traffic analysis more difficult does the law enforcement message contain any random information how much and how random is it can the chip be programmed to reveal the unit key the chip serial number any of the programming parameters raymond brand rbrand usasoc soc mil xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu darwin sura net haven umd edu purdue yuma holland from holland cs colostate edu douglas craig holland subject re once tapped your code is no good any more sender news yuma acns colostate edu news account message id apr21 yuma acns colostate edu date wed apr gmt distribution na references rdippold qualcom apr21 ucsu colorado edu bontchev fbihh nntp posting host beethoven cs colostate edu organization colorado state university computer science department lines in article bontchev fbihh bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de writes andersom spot colorado edu marc anderson writes methods this year crime bill will have teeth not bare gums clinton said in particular his administration will place strict controls on data formats and protocols and require the registration of so called cryptographic keys in the hope of denying drug dealers the ability to communicate in secret clinton said the approach could be used for crackdowns on other forms of underground economic activity such as the deficit causing tax evaders who live in luxury at the expense of our grandchildren and some people thought that am exaggerating when claiming that the cripple chip is just first step in totalitarian plot against the civil liberties in the usa it seems that ve even been an optimist the things are happening even faster than expected that another of the dirty tricks they used to apply on us under the communist regime do something secret then tell the people about is after the fact when nothing can be done any more and of course explaining them how much better the situation is now in my previous messages wrote that the americans should wake up and fight against the new proposal now it seems to me that it is already too late it has already happened the civil liberties have been violated no stollen from the american people while the most part of this people has been sleeping happily too sad definitely going to write my congressman and nobody ever going to make me respect law that violates my freedom of speech and if the feds try to enforce this law on me will protect my freedoms with force if it ever comes to that hopefully it won doug holland doug holland anyone who tries to take away my freedom holland cs colostate edu of speech will have to pry it from my pgp key available by mail cold dead lips newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu swrinde elroy jpl nasa gov news claremont edu jarthur claremont edu ebrandt from ebrandt jarthur claremont edu eli brandt subject re do we need the clipper for cheap security message id c5uwp8 z4 news claremont edu sender news news claremont edu the news system organization harvey mudd college claremont ca references c5trgt ew4 news claremont edu r466c an3 news intercon com date wed apr gmt lines in article r466c an3 news intercon com amanda intercon com amanda walker writes agreed remember don even think of clipper as encryption in any real sense if did probably be lot more annoyed about it agree with this assessment furthermore its promotion as providing greater protection than bare voice is quite true as far as it goes however the only way for it to fulfill its stated goal of letting le wiretap terrorists and drug dealers is to restrict stronger techniques wiretap targets presently use strong encryption weak encryption or the vast majority no encryption the latter two classes can be tapped with weak encryption in every phone the no encryption class is merged into the weak encryption class will the introduction of clipper cause targets presently enjoying strong privacy to give up on it that is to rely for privacy on system expressly designed to deny it to people like them doubt it the mere introduction of this scheme will give the government nothing the stated goal of preventing the degradation of wiretapping capabilities can be fulfilled by restriction of domestic cryptography and only by this restriction clipper appears to be no more than sop given to the public to mute any complaints we would find this grossly inadequate tradeoff but fear the public at large will not care hate to even mention gun control but most people seem to think that an assault weapon as the nyt uses the word is some sort of automatic weapon caliber maybe who wants to have such thing legal well people know even less about cryptology suspect that strong cryptography could easily be labeled too much secrecy for law abiding citizens to need that not for clinton or anyone under him to say though only the federal and supreme courts can say anything about the constitutionality anything the administration or any governmental agency says is opinion at best what they say is opinion but what they do is what matters and will continue unless overturned and the courts are reluctant to annul law or regulation going to some length to decide cases on other grounds furthermore congress can get away with quite bit they could levy burdensome tax this would place enforcement in the hands of the batf who as we ve seen you really don want on your case they could invoke the commerce clause this seems most likely this clause will get you anywhere these days the th was required because the supreme court ruled prohibitory statute unconstitutional in congress prohibited many drugs with textual nod to the commerce clause the controlled substances act of still stands think the government could get away with it amanda walker pgp key by finger or mail eli ebrandt jarthur claremont edu xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt privacy clipper sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel news intercon com usenet from amanda intercon com amanda walker newsgroups alt privacy clipper sci crypt subject re would clipper make good cover for other encryption method date wed apr organization intercon systems corporation herndon va usa lines distribution world message id r4kup cjm news intercon com references r49np b5v news intercon com reply to amanda intercon com amanda walker nntp posting host chaos intercon com newsreader intercon tcp connect ii amanda intercon com amanda walker writes don get up in arms when the government fails to protect the interests of the people because in my lifetime it never has therefore have no expectation that it will just to make sure everyone is clear on this it never has refers to protects not fails to protect in my lifetime have never seen the government consistently protect the interest of citizens except by accident amanda walker intercon systems corporation xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu darwin sura net haven umd edu uunet lehman com snark pmetzger from pmetzger snark shearson com perry metzger subject re once tapped your code is no good any more message id apr21 lehman com sender news lehman com news organization partnership for an america free drug references apr18 yuma acns colostate edu pgf srl03 cacs usl edu apr20 colnet cmhnet org distribution na date wed apr gmt lines res colnet cmhnet org rob stampfli writes wouldn second monitor of similar type scrolling gibberish and adjacent to the one being used provide reasonable resistance to tempest attacks it would be in different location so directional antenna could probably lock in on just the one monitor failing that phased array could likely seperate the signals admittedly this is expensive but so is all the rest of this stuff anyway perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer le monde va de lui meme xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy clipper newsgroups sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu geraldo cc utexas edu portal austin ibm com awdprime austin ibm com arussell from arussell austin ibm com ag russell subject re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip originator arussell pal500 austin ibm com sender news austin ibm com news id message id c5uvn4 mf7 austin ibm com date wed apr gmt references pgf srl03 cacs usl edu bb51156 c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu apr19 jarvis csri toronto edu apr20 magnus acs ohio state edu apr20 ulysses att com apr21 lokkur dexter mi us organization ibm austin lines in article apr21 lokkur dexter mi us scs lokkur dexter mi us steve simmons writes smb research att com steven bellovin writes thousands tens of thousands do some arithmetic please skipjack has possible keys let assume brute force engine like that hypothesized for des microsecond per trial million chips that trials per second or about years for trials well maybe they can get chips running at one trial per nanosecond and build machine with million chips sure only years for each solution normally be the last to argue with steve but shouldn that read years for all solutions mean if we can imagine the machine that does trial nanosecond we can imagine the storage medium that could index and archive it at the company worked for previously received file that was des encryped and the person that had sent it went on vaction rather than wait two weeks set up straight frontal attack with one key at time it only took two days to crack the file no don have any faith in des russell dept a06s oltp section of pals group vm id sc39093 at ausvm1 email arussell austin ibm com phone tieline these are my views on anyone else they would look silly free the berkeley xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt privacy sci crypt alt security comp security misc comp org eff talk path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu usenet coe montana edu news uoregon edu cs uoregon edu ogicse netnews nwnet net news washington edu spiff seattleu edu thebes ole rwing pat from pat rwing uucp pat myrto newsgroups alt privacy sci crypt alt security comp security misc comp org eff talk subject re white house public encryption management fact sheet message id rwing uucp date apr gmt article rwing references c5lgaz dove nist gov qnav4 r3l transfer stratus com apr199313020883 charon gsfc nasa gov distribution na organization totally unorganized lines in article apr199313020883 charon gsfc nasa gov paul charon gsfc nasa gov paul olson writes in article qnav4 r3l transfer stratus com cme ellisun sw stratus com carl ellison writes in article c5lgaz dove nist gov clipper csrc ncsl nist gov clipper chip announcement writes further the attorney general good post describing what is in store for us deleted it also interesting to note that two months ago rush limbaugh said that clinton would have the plumbers out in force shortly clinton and his henchmen firmly believe in strong ubiquitous government control anytime leader believes in that the leader will use every means possible to retain that control and take more we have to take our government back otherwise we will end up living in the equivalent of high tech third world dictatorship we have to take responsibility for ourselves our personal welfare and our actions totally agree but how do you propose we take government back they obviously don listen to the people or want the people to know who is responsibile for what person telnetted the site of the clipper chip release to see what the entity clipper was and got few lists but when another person tried bit later the commands were disabled does not sound like an administration that wants to have any accountability or information they don control given to the people the secret development and implimentation of the clipper chip decision further backs that up you can bet unaurhorized encryption methods and software will be considered terrorist tools and also subject to civil forfeiture along with the systems that are running it you watch see if am wrong the government is not going to be very cooperative about the people taking it back and they have all the resources unlimited access to the media for propeganda and almost all the guns soon to be all the guns if clinton agenda succeeds those that do not play ball waco might be good example of what to expect the warrant just released stated the reason for the raid was the bds spent very large sum for weapons over an undetermined amount of time don recall spending lot of money on guns etc being illegal yet that is clinton might go down in history as the worst thing to ever happen to the us of now to be known as the peoples socalist democratic republic of america psdra big brother is listening hail big brother and sister only ten years late pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle wa if all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and am not sure about the former albert einstien newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel news udel edu darwin sura net bogus sura net howland reston ans net torn nott bnrgate corpgate brtph560 n3ppm007 from cmsph02 nt com steven holton subject re do we need the clipper for cheap security message id cmsph02 n3ppm007 rtpfast nt com followup to sci crypt sender news brtph560 bnr ca usenet news organization northern telecom inc references apr20 shearson com r1f62 rh5 news intercon com date wed apr gmt lines in article r1f62 rh5 news intercon com amanda intercon com amanda walker wrote one thing that clipper offers is interoperability at higher degree of security than we currently have in non proprietary voice encryption systems this means it will be cheaper than anyone proprietary scheme and easier to probably cheaper than you think ll bet some of my and yours tax dollars become subsidy for these chips if these chips don sell well what to stop the us government from giving them away in the interest of national security deploy this is of course either bug or feature depending on how you look at it amanda walker intercon systems corporation steven holton network administrator rtp fast northern telecom inc replies to cmsph02 nt com on bounce sholton aol com compuserve com opinions expressed here are my own xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt privacy clipper newsgroups sci crypt alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net agate netsys ibmpcug exnet dcs ed ac uk pdc from pdc dcs ed ac uk paul crowley subject re would clipper make good cover for other encryption method message id c5upf8 gfo dcs ed ac uk sender cnews dcs ed ac uk usenet news admin reply to pdc dcs ed ac uk paul crowley organization edinburgh university references apr20 eff org strnlghtc5t3nh is1 netcom com date wed apr gmt lines quoting strnlght netcom com david sternlight in article strnlghtc5t3nh is1 netcom com in article apr20 eff org kadie eff org carl kadie writes so don just think of replacements for clipper also think of front ends this only makes sense if the government prohibits alternative non escrowed encryption schemes otherwise why not just use the front end without clipper because that will make private encryption stick out like sore thumb and the government will start to take sharp interest in everything you do paul crowley pdc dcs ed ac uk trust me know what doing fold fish for jesus xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu usenet coe montana edu news uoregon edu cs uoregon edu ogicse netnews nwnet net news washington edu spiff seattleu edu thebes ole rwing pat from pat rwing uucp pat myrto newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee subject re once tapped your code is no good any more message id rwing uucp date apr gmt article rwing references apr17 clarinet com rwing uucp apr20 coop com distribution na organization totally unorganized lines in article apr20 coop com felixg coop com felix gallo writes pat rwing uucp pat myrto writes if the clinton clipper is so very good please note that bill clinton probably has little if anything to do with the design implementation or reasoning behind this chip or behind any moves being made using this chip as pawn uh notice he has not either asked for or allowed public input and he damn sure has not stopped it remember when you elect president of the united states it not the case that all the republicans etc in the nsa and fbi and cia immediately pack their bags and get replaced by team of fresh young democrats most of the government say is appointed or hired rather than elected since this clipper device has been in production for over six months it probably has little or no foundation in the currently elected democratic executive body again if it was something clinton didn like how come he did not stop it or get public input before implimenting the decision he sure has asserted his authority on other things he did not agree with from the bush administrationk notice he is the president therefore he is responsible for the actions of the execuitive branch have not the slightest bit of doubt you would be holding bush or reagan to that standard had they been in office when this thing was cast into stone btw those who suggest that this is just an attack on clinton believe this would be going ballistic reagardless who seriously proposed this thing it is just another step in gradual erosion of our rights under the constitution or bill of rights the last couple of decades have been non stop series of end runs around the protections of the constitution it has to stop now is as good time as any if it isn too late allready could be however the sky hasn fallen yet chicken little thanks for the name calling that really makes your position higly credible lenin had term for folks with your outlook do you really have that much faith in the trustworthiness and honesty of the government that is primarily concerned with people control suspect you will be in for an unpleasant surprise would just as soon see this nipped in the bud while if it still can be done instead of waiting for yet more abridgements of our bill of rights thank you pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle wa if all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and am not sure about the former albert einstien xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu usenet coe montana edu news uoregon edu cs uoregon edu ogicse netnews nwnet net news washington edu spiff seattleu edu thebes ole rwing pat from pat rwing uucp pat myrto newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee subject re once tapped your code is no good any more message id rwing uucp date apr gmt article rwing references apr17 clarinet com rwing uucp apr19 cs ucla edu distribution na organization totally unorganized lines in article apr19 cs ucla edu geoff ficus cs ucla edu geoffrey kuenning writes in article rwing uucp pat rwing uucp pat myrto writes fishing expeditions without the target knowlege don give up the right to be safe from that that should be non negotiable and clinton and co know it which is probably why they quietly developed this thing figuring if they get it this far they can ram it on through it always amazes me how quick people are to blame whatever administration is current for things they couldn possibly have initiated this chip had to take years to develop yet already we re claiming that the clinton administration sneaked it in on us bullshit the bush administration and the career gestapo were responsible for this horror and the careerists presented it to the new presidency as fait accompli that doesn excuse clinton and gore from criticism for being so stupid as to go for it but let lay the body at the proper door to start with you are so correct clinton did not initiate it he just cast it in granite by implimenting not stopping the decision also stated in another post don give damn what administration does it still find it totally unacceptable and whoever impliments it or rams it down our throats ought to be run out of office also bush was not trying to deprive us of our second amendment rights clinton is busting his butt in that regard that reveals total difference in philosophy clinton appears to support the idea of total people control eavesdropping whenever they feel like it no real security for the common person and no ability to defend oneself against illegal attack from whatever source trust us we will protect and control you if we don find it inconvenient clinton has also shown his utter contempt for public disclosure and accountability as well he had plenty of time to change the policy he didn he expanded on it bet had bush been in office you would be in there howling louder than pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle wa if all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and am not sure about the former albert einstien xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp org eff talk alt privacy clipper sci crypt newsgroups comp org eff talk alt privacy clipper sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net agate netsys ibmpcug exnet dcs ed ac uk pdc from pdc dcs ed ac uk paul crowley subject re organized lobbying for cryptography message id c5uprt gmq dcs ed ac uk sender cnews dcs ed ac uk usenet news admin reply to pdc dcs ed ac uk paul crowley organization edinburgh university references r2gb5 h0r transfer stratus com r3jgbinn35i eli cs yale edu distribution inet date wed apr gmt lines quoting jgfoot minerva cis yale edu in article r3jgbinn35i eli cs yale edu perhaps these encryption only types would defend the digitized porn if it was posted encrypted these issues are not as seperable as you maintain in fact since effective encryption makes censorship impossible they are almost the same issue and they certainly fall into the brief of the eff paul crowley pdc dcs ed ac uk trust me know what doing fold fish for jesus path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net bogus sura net darwin sura net guvax acc georgetown edu denning from denning guvax acc georgetown edu newsgroups sci crypt subject revised technical summary of clipper chip message id apr21 guvax acc georgetown edu date apr distribution world organization georgetown university lines here is revised version of my summary which corrects some errors and provides some additional information and explanation the clipper chip technical summary dorothy denning revised april introduction on april the president announced new initiative that will bring together the federal government and industry in voluntary program to provide secure communications while meeting the legitimate needs of law enforcement at the heart of the plan is new tamper proof encryption chip called the clipper chip together with split key approach to escrowing keys two escrow agencies are used and the key parts from both are needed to reconstruct key chip contents the clipper chip contains classified single key bit block encryption algorithm called skipjack the algorithm uses bit keys compared with for the des and has rounds of scrambling compared with for the des it supports all des modes of operation the algorithm takes clock ticks and in electronic codebook ecb mode runs at mbits per second each chip includes the following components the skipjack encryption algorithm an bit family key that is common to all chips bit serial number this length is subject to change an bit secret key that unlocks all messages encrypted with the chip the chips are programmed by mykotronx inc which calls them the myk the silicon is supplied by vlsi technology inc they are implemented in micron technology and will initially sell for about each in quantities of or more the price should drop as the technology is shrunk to micron encrypting with the chip to see how the chip is used imagine that it is embedded in the at telephone security device as it will be suppose call someone and we both have such device after pushing button to start secure conversation my security device will negotiate an bit session key with the device at the other end this key negotiation takes place without the clipper chip in general any method of key exchange can be used such as the diffie hellman public key distribution method once the session key is established the clipper chip is used to encrypt the conversation or message stream digitized voice the telephone security device feeds and into the chip to produce two values the encrypted message stream and law enforcement field which are transmitted over the telephone line the law enforcement field thus contains the session key encrypted under the unit key concatenated with the serial number all encrypted under the family key the law enforcement field is decrypted by law enforcement after an authorized wiretap has been installed the ciphertext is decrypted by the receiver device using the session key chip programming and escrow all clipper chips are programmed inside scif secure compartmented information facility which is essentially vault the scif contains laptop computer and equipment to program the chips about chips are programmed during single session the scif is located at mykotronx at the beginning of session trusted agent from each of the two key escrow agencies enters the vault agent enters secret random bit value s1 into the laptop and agent enters secret random bit value s2 these random values serve as seeds to generate unit keys for sequence of serial numbers thus the unit keys are function of secret random bits where each agent knows only to generate the unit key for serial number the bit value is first padded with fixed bit block to produce bit block n1 s1 and s2 are then used as keys to triple encrypt n1 producing bit block r1 r1 n1 s1 s2 s1 similarly is padded with two other bit blocks to produce n2 and n3 and two additional bit blocks r2 and r3 are computed r2 n2 s1 s2 s1 r3 n3 s1 s2 s1 r1 r2 and r3 are then concatenated together giving bits the first bits are assigned to u1 and the second bits to u2 the rest are discarded the unit key is the xor of u1 and u2 u1 and u2 are the key parts that are separately escrowed with the two escrow agencies as sequence of values for u1 u2 and are generated they are written onto three separate floppy disks the first disk contains file for each serial number that contains the corresponding key part u1 the second disk is similar but contains the u2 values the third disk contains the unit keys agent takes the first disk and agent takes the second disk thus each agent walks away knowing an bit seed and the bit key parts however the agent does not know the other bits used to generate the keys or the other bit key parts the third disk is used to program the chips after the chips are programmed all information is discarded from the vault and the agents leave the laptop may be destroyed for additional assurance that no information is left behind the protocol may be changed slightly so that four people are in the room instead of two the first two would provide the seeds s1 and s2 and the second two the escrow agents would take the disks back to the escrow agencies the escrow agencies have as yet to be determined but they will not be the nsa cia fbi or any other law enforcement agency one or both may be independent from the government law enforcement use when law enforcement has been authorized to tap an encrypted line they will first take the warrant to the service provider in order to get access to the communications line let us assume that the tap is in place and that they have determined that the line is encrypted with the clipper chip the law enforcement field is first decrypted with the family key giving documentation certifying that tap has been authorized for the party associated with serial number is then sent via secure fax to each of the key escrow agents who return also via secure fax u1 and u2 u1 and u2 are xored together to produce the unit key and is decrypted to get the session key finally the message stream is decrypted all this will be accomplished through special black box decoder capstone the next generation successor to the clipper chip called capstone by the government and myk by mykotronx has already been developed it will include the skipjack algorithm the digital signature standard dss the secure hash algorithm sha method of key exchange fast exponentiator and randomizer prototoype will be available for testing on april and the chips are expected to be ready for delivery in june or july acknowledgment and distribution notice this article is based on information provided by nsa nist fbi and mykotronx permission to distribute this document is granted xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp org eff talk alt privacy clipper sci crypt newsgroups comp org eff talk alt privacy clipper sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech purdue yuma ns111310 from ns111310 lance colostate edu nathaniel sammons subject re have seen the lobby and it is us message id apr21 yuma acns colostate edu sender news yuma acns colostate edu news account date wed apr gmt references apr21 magnus acs ohio state edu gfpj4tb0bwwb0dww02 transarc com apr21 eff org nntp posting host casco lance colostate edu organization colorado state engineering college lines in article apr21 eff org charles gross acg eff org writes certainly with our way cool internet powers of organization we can act in the same way if such action is appropriate as long as we are kept informed of events anyone on this bboard can make call to action hopefully we re strong enough community to act on those calls realize this is little optomistic and glad eff is working in the loop on these issues but don underestimate the potential of the net for political action adam speak for myself second the motion all in favor btw few days ago charles fee cxf111 psuvm psu edu posted the names addresses and phone numbers voice and fax of almost all the rd congress members this info along witha great number of cabinet men etc captured it as did many others am sure we should single out few of the people on the list and bombard them with lobbying against the clipper chip et al nate hate quotations this message brought you by tell me what you know nate sammons and the number ralph waldo emerson ns111310 longs lance colostate edu newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net noc near net uunet world ariel from ariel world std com robert ullmann subject re why the algorithm is secret message id c5uzgs e8s world std com organization the world in boston references apr17 chpc org distribution na date thu apr gmt lines exactly but ll add another observation if the chip does become standard the algorithm won remain secret leaving the government with the only remaining option to make use of un escrowed keys illegal which won begin to bother the terrorists and child abusers the government is so fond of referring to note that the federalist papers stress one reason for the right of citizens to bear arms to defend themselves against the army our army imho the primary purpose of private crypto is defend ourselves against the government the odd terrorist not worried about the goverment damages my quality of life every day rob robert ullmann ariel world std com x226 quand maigret poussa la porte du tabac fontaine vers une heure et demie le patron du bar qui venait de se lever descendait lentement un escalier en colima on qui amor ait dans arri re salle arriv derri re le comptoir il repousa le gar on un geste gligent de la main saisit une bouteille de vin blanc un verre langea au vin de eau min rale et la te renvers en arri re se gargarisa simenon text is iso utf universal character set xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt comp org eff talk newsgroups sci crypt comp org eff talk alt law enforcement path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net uunet lvsun carl from carl lvsun com carl shapiro subject re estimating wiretap costs benefits message id c5v08w ewk lvsun com summary benefits probably greater than thought organization las vegas sun references apr20 kronos arc nasa gov rlglendec5t133 en3 netcom com date thu apr gmt lines in article apr20 kronos arc nasa gov hanson kronos arc nasa gov robin hanson writes rough estimate suggests that wiretaps are worth about five million dollars per year to law enforcement agencies in wiretaps led to arrests while total police expenditures of billion led to million arrests ref us statistical abstracts working on estimating this wiretap benefit more accurately but you seem to be assuming that all arrests are of equal value and that the use of wiretaps is spread uniformly among them given this comparatively tiny number of wiretaps and the associated difficulty and cost involved judges technicians etc expect that law enforcement reserves the use of wiretaps for the most valuable cases since the value of an arrest can vary over an enormous range eg jaywalking mass murder think your million estimate may be too low by couple of orders of magnitude newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu agate dog ee lbl gov network ucsd edu news service uci edu ucivax news claremont edu jarthur claremont edu ebrandt from ebrandt jarthur claremont edu eli brandt subject re the secret source of that announcement message id c5v131 news claremont edu sender news news claremont edu the news system organization harvey mudd college claremont ca references r1om5 c5m slab mtholyoke edu r3hgqinndaa uwm edu date thu apr gmt lines in article r3hgqinndaa uwm edu rick miller rick ee uwm edu writes jbotz mtholyoke edu jurgen botz writes seems like sombody didn like your snooping around marc or the more likely explanation is that marc is spoofing while didn try the expansion personally know of at least two other people who did and got the same results your allegation is incorrect at best pgp key by finger or mail eli ebrandt jarthur claremont edu xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp os msdos programmer sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu caen msuinfo scss3 cl msu edu mrr from mrr scss3 cl msu edu mark riordan newsgroups comp os msdos programmer sci crypt subject dos compression api partial answer date apr gmt organization michigan state university lines message id r4r65 c7v msuinfo cl msu edu nntp posting host scss3 cl msu edu newsreader tin version pl8 for those of you looking for information on ms dos file system compression api today called microsoft dos hotline at they told me that the dos resource kit had the specifications for the compression interface the resource kit costs plus tax and shipping ordered copy and will post further when get it and know more about it am posting now because the order turnaround is working days if anyone knows for sure where there good source of info on this api please speak up am slightly skeptical about the resource kit likelihood of having detailed programming info mark mrr ripem msu edu posted also to sci crypt since the api could presumably also be used for file system encryption xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy clipper newsgroups sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu agate linus linus mitre org linus mbunix eachus from eachus spectre mitre org robert eachus subject re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip in reply to mjr tis com message of apr gmt message id eachus apr21194844 spectre mitre org sender news linus mitre org news service nntp posting host spectre mitre org organization the mitre corp bedford ma references apr20 magnus acs ohio state edu apr20 ulysses att com apr21 lokkur dexter mi us r4e9d pdo sol tis com date thu apr gmt lines don get fooled by exponents possible keys is not in the same league with particles in the universe remember avagadro number there are about that many elementary particles not molecules in one mole pretty small universe or if you can put gigabytes on one tape you would need about trillion tapes allowing several bytes per entry still more than all of the existing magnetic media on the planet but wait few years including existing audio and video cassettes in the total ten trillion is about per person worldwide gives new meaning to the suspicions of hiden messages robert eachus with standard disclaimer use standard disclaimer function message text in clever ideas return better ideas is xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt privacy clipper newsgroups sci crypt alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu magnus acs ohio state edu csn news sinet slb com slcs slb com dcd from dcd se houston geoquest slb com dan day subject re the escrow database message id apr21 slcs slb com sender news slcs slb com news administrator nntp posting host castor se houston geoquest slb com organization geoquest system inc houston references strnlghtc5puor netcom com bontchev fbihh apr20 shearson com date wed apr gmt lines in article apr20 shearson com pmetzger snark shearson com perry metzger writes each of the two escrow databases fits conveniently on single very valuable exabyte tape this can only get easier with time but who cares can already hold all the clipper keys in the country in my pocket on two mm tapes excellent point and there related point like to make they ll have to back up these databases themselves won they how many tape copies will there be and how secure will the tapes be if they store them off site it wouldn be too hard to hijack them in transit if they re all kept on site one good bomb attack by some group intent on freeing us from the threat of government snooping will take care of the problem once and for all can see it now hi we re from the government and we um misplaced our copy of your key could you mail us copy xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt privacy clipper newsgroups sci crypt alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com network ucsd edu news service uci edu ucivax news claremont edu jarthur claremont edu ebrandt from ebrandt jarthur claremont edu eli brandt subject re would clipper make good cover for other encryption method message id c5v2i1 xu news claremont edu sender news news claremont edu the news system organization harvey mudd college claremont ca references apr20 eff org date thu apr gmt lines in article apr20 eff org kadie eff org carl kadie writes clipper might be good way to cover the use of another layer of encryption could somebody provide an overview of the proposed systems using the chip ought to see if att has spec sheet skipjack sounds like normal digital encryption algorithm so the data path will have to be voice digitize compress encrypt compression will be necessary to fit the data on the wire unless they want to wait for isdn that we should be so lucky feeding pre encrypted data into the compressor will cause it to chuckle at you you have to tap into the guts of the phone and hack either the compressed data stream or selected parts of the output stream before it hits the modem unless you want to pay for two fast modems on top of the encryption and just plug the box in between your phone and the wall carl pgp key by finger or mail eli ebrandt jarthur claremont edu newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com news ans net cmcl2 panix habs from habs panix com harry shapiro subject re the secret source of that announcement message id c5uxgv dv7 panix com organization panix public access unix nyc references marc apr17211937 oliver mit edu r1om5 c5m slab mtholyoke edu date wed apr gmt lines in r1om5 c5m slab mtholyoke edu jbotz mtholyoke edu jurgen botz writes even more interesting the smtp server at csrc ncsl nist gov no longer recognizes the expn and vrfy commands telnet csrc ncsl nist gov smtp trying connected to csrc ncsl nist gov escape character is first org sendmail nist ready at tue apr edt expn clipper command unrecognized seems like sombody didn like your snooping around marc then it is good thing we already have this the csspub mailing list csspab mail gw ncsl nist gov and address on the clipper mailing list seems to contain basically the members of the nist security board in addition to the names already posted their true names are as follows burrows ecf james burrows director of nist national computer systems laboratory mcnulty ecf lynn mcnulty an associate director for computer security at the national institute of standards and technology computer systems laboratory gangemi dockmaster ncsc mil gaetano gangemi is director of the secure systems program at wang laboratories inc he wrote computer security basics by deborah russell and gangemi sr reilly and associates slambert cgin cto citicorp com sandra lambert is vice president of information security at citibank lipner mitre org lipner is mitre corp director of information systems gallagher dockmaster ncsc mil patrick gallagher director of the national security agency national computer security center and security board member walker tis com stephen walker computer security expert and president of trusted information systems inc in glenwood md willis rand org willis ware the rand corp executive who chairs the security board whitehurst vnet ibm com william whitehurst is security board member and director of ibm corp data security programs harry shapiro habs panix com list administrator of the extropy institute mailing list private communication for the extropian community since harry shapiro habs panix com list administrator of the extropy institute mailing list private communication for the extropian community since newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu sample eng ohio state edu purdue haven umd edu news umbc edu gmuvax2 gravity gmu edu tfs from tfs gravity gmu edu tim scanlon subject re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow message id apr21 gmuvax2 gmu edu summary whatever keywords hmm sender usenet gmuvax2 gmu edu usenet administrator organization george mason university fairfax va references pmetzger apr18141006 snark shearson com aohonj024n sktb demon co uk c5s6i7 n0m dcs ed ac uk distribution world date wed apr gmt expires lines after reading the debate over the clipper have few things to add first most of the people know who activly use encryption privately do not care about most of the issues that surround this debate and any questions about what is or is not ok to use in the us all they care about is wether or not what they are using is secure or not that after all is the bottom line second if look at all the people know who use any form of encryption at all and this group spans people from the morons who still insist that the des is good and secure standard to people looking at trying to improve upon existing strategies can not think of anyone of them who would approve blindly of strategy that leaves their methods open to abuse the clipper does this because people make mistakes by nature and the us government is made up of people who are just as vulnerable to mistakes as everyone else third since most of the people know are at least marginaly familiar with the vulnerabilities present in current software encryption stratigies can see how most of them are going to blindly trust that someone will not figure out good way to compromise the clipper chip that despite any strengths or weaknesses that may exist in it so can not see high degree of confidence developing in the chip fourth when it comes to criminal abuse sure there are many stupid people out there and yes some will be open to being caught via the built in back door of the clipper chip however anyone who is going to do any serious investigation of how best to secure their data is going to run into that problem pretty damned fast and would assume start looking around for other easily obtainible methods of encryption if nothing else were avalible none of this would be an issue however the truth is that most private encryption users that ve ever run into simply do not give damn about the legal status of rsa or pgp or anything else if it works they use it this is not going to change either do not think for moment that anyone with serious criminal intent will be slowed down by the advent of the clipper chip it is all to easy to convert encrypted data into unintellgible garbage as it is if anything the clipper chip just adds another tool to the user the bottom line here is that people will use what works and unavoidibly sure most criminals would rather face an encryption related charge than one which could potentialy lead to death penalty charges in the case of criminals who murder as part of their conspiricy the other thing that has struck me since the advent and wide useage of public encryption has begun is that quite simply the cat is out of the bag or if you have an interest in snooping pandora box has been opened and this is not going to change ve seen blindness to this that ve found utterly stunning and the clipper chip along with the way it has been presented only confirms this to me to larger degree sincerly tim scanlon tfs gravity gmu edu xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt comp org eff talk newsgroups sci crypt comp org eff talk alt law enforcement path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc news service uci edu ucivax news claremont edu jarthur claremont edu ebrandt from ebrandt jarthur claremont edu eli brandt subject re estimating wiretap costs benefits message id c5v39p ag0 news claremont edu sender news news claremont edu the news system organization harvey mudd college claremont ca references apr20 kronos arc nasa gov rlglendec5t133 en3 netcom com date thu apr gmt lines in article rlglendec5t133 en3 netcom com rlglende netcom com robert lewis glendenning writes first what the fuck is nasa doing wasting my tax dollars doing policy papers on stuff far outside of their purvew mission don think they re paying for it do us favor resign rather than right this paper for nasa go do useful work for the society useful find his estimate of the annual value to law enforcement of million quite useful if rough wiretaps may be preferentially used on otherwise hard to catch criminals resulting in an underestimate this comes to twenty cents head over the population would find some rigorous numbers on this quite useful it would make for nice slogans your privacy is worth or whatever it turns out to be lew glendenning rlglende netcom com pgp key by finger or mail eli ebrandt jarthur claremont edu xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu agate dog ee lbl gov newshub nosc mil nosc visicom makey from makey visicom com jeff makey newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee subject re once tapped your code is no good any more message id visicom com date apr gmt references apr17 clarinet com rwing uucp c5so84 hxv demon co uk distribution na organization visicom laboratories inc san diego california lines in article c5so84 hxv demon co uk graham toal gtoal gtoal com writes am completely baffled by why dorothy denning has chosen to throw away her academic respectability like this she hasn dorothy denning has spent many years earning the professional respect of her colleagues and something won in this manner is not easily lost her support of the clipper no matter how unpopular that position may be serves far more to enhance the clipper respectability than to diminish her own jeff makey department of tautological pleonasms and superfluous redundancies department disclaimer all opinions are strictly those of the author domain makey visicom com uucp nosc visicom makey newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu sgiblab sgigate sgi wdl1 phobos koontzd from koontzd phobos lrmsc loral com david koontz subject will feds troll for mutilated law enforcement blocks message id apr22 wdl loral com originator koontzd phobos sender news wdl loral com organization loral rolm computer systems date thu apr gmt lines from denning the skipjack encryption algorithm an bit family key that is common to all chips bit serial number an bit secret key that unlocks all messages encrypted with the chip the encrypted message stream and law enforcement block where the session key is and is transmitted encrypted in the unit key which along with the serial number is encrypted in the family key presumably the protocol can be recovered if by nothing else differential analysis postulate if you will chip or logic sitting between the clipper chip and its communications channel the function of this spoof chip is twofold transmit channel the spoof chip xors the bit encrypted serial number with secondary keying variable this renders the serial number unrecoverable with just the family key receive channel the spoof chip xors the incoming encrypted serial number with secondary keying variable assuming integrity of the law enforcement block is necessary for local operation checksums sequence control etc this has the net result of hiding the serial number it is probable theere is known plaintext pattern used as filler in the block containing bits as used in generating u1 u2 correctness of the law enforcement block can be determined with only the family key whereas no one has proposed federal agencies be denied and because they could recover it themselves the correctness of the serial number can be tested by examining the pad bits of in the one could selectively alter the law enforcement block as above but the mutilation could be detected better approach would be to mutilate the entire law enforcement block if it were done with group encryption scheme such as des or presumably skipjack the chances the law enforcement block can be recovered are lessened what do you want to bet the transmission protocol can be recognized and the serial numbers decrypted in target search when digital transmission becomes widely available would there be requirement that clipper protocol transmissions be refused when containing mutilated law enforcement blocks one way to avoid notice would be to spoof protocol information of the block containing as well as spoofing the law enforcement block the goal is to use secure communications scheme without redress to detection or key interception contained encrypted within the law enforcement block the data stream is returned to its original state for use by the clipper chip or system if required for proper operation it is somewhat improbable that the entire protocol will be contained within the clipper chip yet likely that sequence of events will be tested for requiring valid law enforcement block to be received before accepting and decrypting the spoof chip could be implemented anywhere in the protocols including on the resulting serial data stream existing clipper products could be subborned after all they are high security encryption systems right super encipherment encryption could allow the chip to be used without redress to detection of the use of the chip or disclosure of the serial number security must be adequate to deny the serial number which should not be recoverable by other means one can see the use of cut outs for procurring clipper phones or once the number of units is high enough stealing them it would be mistake on the part of authority but nice from point of privacy if the serial number were not associated with particular clipper chip or lot of chips through the manufacturing and distribution process hopefully the list of known missing or stolen clipper serial numbers encrypted with and the protocols are not sufficient plaintext to attact the super encrypted clipper stream this could be further made difficult by altering the temporal and or spatial relationship of the clipper stream to that of the super encrypted stream detection of an encrypted stream could tip off the use of the aforementioned scheme if you could capture valid law enforcement blocks not your own and use them in codebook sustitution with your own where they point to valid law enforcement block stored in library utilizing session key matching the remainder of the transmission you could simply out and out lie yet deliver to monitoring and or hostile forces seemingly valid law enforcement block these captured law enforcement blocks would be used as authenticators such as in manually keyed encryption system fending this off would require escalation in examining the protocols and blocks in the transmission the code stream might be independently attacked based on knowledge of clipper chip protocols as revealed plaintext this could be invalidated by changing the temporal and or spatial relationship of the clipper stream and the actual transmitted stream under the control of secure key generator synchronized between endpoints the useful life time of captured law enforcement blocks might be limited based on hostile forces using them as targets following transmission interception you would need large number of them but hey there supposed to be millions of these things right adding time stamps to the encrypted law enforcement block is probably impractical who wants an encryption chip with real time clock the entire idea of the law enforcement block can be invalidated newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov ames sgi wdl1 phobos koontzd from koontzd phobos lrmsc loral com david koontz subject re will feds troll for mutilated law enforcement blocks message id apr22 wdl loral com sender news wdl loral com organization loral rolm mil spec computers references apr22 wdl loral com date thu apr gmt lines the code stream might be independently attacked based on knowledge of clipper chip protocols as revealed plaintext this could be invalidated by changing the temporal and or spatial relationship of the clipper stream and the actual transmitted stream under the control of secure key generator synchronized between endpoints the useful life time of captured law enforcement blocks might be limited based on hostile forces using them as targets following transmission interception you would need large number of them but hey there supposed to be millions of these things right adding time stamps to the encrypted law enforcement block is probably impractical who wants an encryption chip with real time clock the entire idea of the law enforcement block can be invalidated just had the thought that you could capture your own law enforcement blocks for session keys that you will not use in actual transmissions as the session key authenticators the proviso that you don mind your own serial number being discovered denning just sent out further information of new version of the clipper chip if hash function were to be embedded in clipper transmission block reflecting the law enforcement block it better not fall on bit block boundaries if it were recognizeable datum you could lie with it too like the randomizer inclusion in the myk remember reading that intel had an approved random noise source on silicon hence the ability to put it inside you ever think that mykotronx sounds like one of those made up names of companies used as fronts for intelligence organizations path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu ub clarkson signal ece clarkson edu tuinstra from tuinstra signal ece clarkson edu soe dwight tuinstra newsgroups sci crypt subject political point of attack clipper infrastructure message id apr22 news clarkson edu date apr gmt references gumby apr20073629 tweedledumb cygnus com sender news news clarkson edu reply to tuinstra signal ece clarkson edu soe organization sun microsystems inc lines nntp posting host signal ece clarkson edu my earlier argument that clipper will encourage state and local cops to commit criminal acts is largely moot now that we ve learned that the fbi will perform the actual tap it will encourage the fbi to commit even more criminal acts but that not the point here but this gives another avenue of attack on the clipper proposal when the eff aclu cpsr foia requests are made they should ask for details on the bureaucratic and equipment infrastructure that is proposed or even already budgeted for the fbi to service tapping requests for now and the projected future from these figures estimate the number of clipper tap requests the fbi is expecting publish this figure compare it on per capita basis with the amount of tapping now known or suspected also estimate how expensive it would be for the fbi to install more clipper tapping stations and how rapidly they could be built and installed ie get the plus or minus epsilon for the near future might be mite disturbing for public to know these things and despite all the technical details btw thanks to those who ve been providing them we still don know how the tapping requests will be transmitted and authenticated though it isn too hard to guess good scheme how the results will be securely transmitted fed ex the audio tapes how privacy will be re established when an investigation is complete dwight tuinstra best tuinstra sandman ece clarkson edu tolerable tuinstrd craft camp clarkson edu homo sapiens planetary cancer news at six newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usenet ins cwru edu magnus acs ohio state edu bgsuvax att att allegra ulysses ulysses smb from smb research att com steven bellovin subject re clipper will corrupt cops was wh proposal from police point of view message id apr22 ulysses att com date thu apr gmt references bontchev fbihh apr21 news clarkson edu organization at bell laboratories lines in article apr21 news clarkson edu tuinstra signal ece clarkson edu soe dwight tuinstra writes the clear implication is that there are legal authorizations other than court order just how leaky are these don have the wiretap statute handy but here what the law says on pen registers this is all from title of the code note how vague is haven had chance to check out yet usc pen registers as of general prohibition on pen register and trap and trace device use exception in general except as provided in this section no person may install or use pen register or trap and trace device without first obtaining court order under section of this title or under the foreign intelligence surveillance act of et seq emergency pen register and trap and trace device installation notwithstanding any other provision of this chapter any investigative or law enforcement officer specially designated by the attorney general the deputy attorney general the associate attorney general any assistant attorney general any acting assistant attorney general or any deputy assistant attorney general or by the principal prosecuting attorney of any state or subdivision thereof acting pursuant to statute of that state who reasonably determines that an emergency situation exists that involves immediate danger of death or serious bodily injury to any person or conspiratorial activities characteristic of organized crime that requires the installation and use of pen register or trap and trace device before an order authorizing such installation and use can with due diligence be obtained and there are grounds upon which an order could be entered under this chapter to authorize such installation and use may have installed and use pen register or trap and trace device if within forty eight hours after the installation has occurred or begins to occur an order approving the installation or use is issued in accordance with section of this title in the absence of an authorizing order such use shall immediately terminate when the information sought is obtained when the application for the order is denied or when forty eight hours have lapsed since the installation of the pen register or trap and trace device whichever is earlier the knowing installation or use by any investigative or law enforcement officer of pen register or trap and trace device pursuant to subsection without application for the authorizing order within forty eight hours of the installation shall constitute violation of this chapter xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt comp org eff talk newsgroups sci crypt comp org eff talk path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu linac att att allegra ulysses ulysses smb from smb research att com steven bellovin subject re clipper considered harmful message id apr22 ulysses att com date thu apr gmt distribution inet references optilink com r24us oeh agate berkeley edu organization at bell laboratories lines in article r24us oeh agate berkeley edu shirriff sprite berkeley edu ken shirriff writes imagine archiving all pay phone conversations so if someone turns out to be drug dealer you can listen to all their past drug deals and archive calls to from suspected mafia members potential terrorists radicals etc imagine the convenience for the police of being able to get warrant now and listening to all the calls the world trade center bombers made in the past year since archiving would be such powerful tool and so easy to do why wouldn it happen apart from the storage and search requirements because the evidence is inadmissible wiretaps require warrant and as soon as one such case comes to light all previous cases are likely to be discovered and thrown out there was an article in the ny times few months ago about how many convictions in the state might be invalidated because they relied on pen registers and the court of appeals ruled that pen registers were equivalent to wiretaps and hence required warrants under new york law xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp org eff talk alt privacy clipper sci crypt newsgroups comp org eff talk alt privacy clipper sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu msuinfo uchinews raistlin uc msc edu msc edu eab from eab msc edu edward bertsch subject re have seen the lobby and it is us message id apr22 uc msc edu sender netnews uc msc edu uc network news organization minnesota supercomputer center minneapolis mn references apr20 husc3 harvard edu apr21 magnus acs ohio state edu gfpj4tb0bwwb0dww02 transarc com apr21 eff org date thu apr gmt lines agree that notifying your elected officials of your feelings on this and any other for that matter issue is the way to go and by the way the phone on the list posted the other day were all in washington for most of you your elected officials will also maintain local office in your area code when manage my elected officials use their local office exclusively and my fax modem and windows print capture software are my tool of choice they see my words as have stated them rather than summary as they would if called in voice and left comment with the office staff edward bertsch eab msc edu minnesota supercomputer center inc operations user services washington avenue south work minneapolis minnesota voice mail disclaimer my opinions not msci xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp lang sci crypt newsgroups comp lang sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com news cs indiana edu mvanheyn cs indiana edu from marc vanheyningen mvanheyn cs indiana edu subject re freely distributable public key cryptography code where message id moose cs indiana edu sender mvanheyn cs indiana edu organization computer science dept indiana university references c5ua2j iki gpu utcc utoronto ca c5ukt8 cc1 brunel ac uk date wed apr lines thus said ee92jks brunel ac uk jonathan saville wigglesworth smhanaes gpu utcc utoronto ca wrote do you know of any freely distributable or code for public key cryptography such as rsa ve tried various archie searches to no avail have you heard of pgp assume from your post that you have not pgp is freeware rsa encryption program which includes digital signatures and comprehensive key management facilities most sites also keep the source code growing number of people are using this excellent software to encrypt to very high standard their email and data get it before clinton outlaws it two of the many sites are rsa com pub pgp soda berkeley edu pub cypherpunks pgp pgp is not available on the archive site rsa com if it were it would be highly amusing since rsa com actually public key partners but it the same entity is the organization holding the patents which they claim are violated if you actually make use or sell pgp believe those patents also apply in canada but not patent lawyer or anything there is no such thing as freely redistributable code for rsa which can be used in north america without legal entanglements you may wish to consider rsaref however which is available from the ftp site rsa com in rsaref but probably doesn meet your definition of freely redistributable it readily available in source in and does rsa md5 etc and comes with license allowing noncommercial use like any other strong crypto software it not exportable legally it can be modified with permission from rsadsi which number of people have received in the past for reasons that aren entirely clear to me rsa says that only people should take rsaref from its server although there aren itar issues regarding canada the ripem distribution site ripem msu edu has rsaref in its distribution and is ok for canadians marc vanheyningen mvanheyn cs indiana edu mime ripem accepted barney the dinosaur is simply rush limbaugh in dinosaur suit lost boy newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net ira uka de math fu berlin de news netmbx de germany eu net mcsun chsun bernina caronni from caronni nessie cs id ethz ch germano caronni subject some questions was revised summary message id apr22 bernina ethz ch sender news bernina ethz ch usenet news system organization swiss federal institute of technology eth zurich ch references apr21 guvax acc georgetown edu date thu apr gmt lines here is revised version of my summary that corrects some errors and provides some additional information and explanation thank you very much after reading the text some distinct questions arised to me which guess will also be asked by other people perhaps would it be interesting to find an answer to these questions the clipper chip technical summary bit serial number this length is subject to change shorter or longer once the session key is established the clipper chip is used to encrypt the conversation or message stream digitized voice the telephone security device feeds and into the chip to produce two values the encrypted message stream and law enforcement field which are transmitted over the telephone line the law enforcement field thus contains the session key encrypted under the unit key concatenated with the serial number all encrypted under the family key the law enforcement field is decrypted by law enforcement after an authorized wiretap has been installed first question when will the lawenforcmentfield be transmitted and how does the remote clipper chip handle it is it transmitted periodically in the stream of encrypted blocks or just at the beginning does the phone at the other side discard those packets via protocol whatsoever or tries it to turn them into voice output which would not be disturbing at the beginning of session trusted agent from each of the two key escrow agencies enters the vault agent enters secret random bit value s1 into the laptop and agent enters secret random bit value s2 these random values serve as seeds to generate unit keys for sequence of serial numbers thus the unit keys are function of secret random bits where each agent knows only second question why why is such strange procedure used and not real rng this turns those s1 s2 in kind of bottleneck for system security when law enforcement has been authorized to tap an encrypted line they will first take the warrant to the service provider in order to get access to the communications line let us assume that the tap is in place and that they have determined that the line is encrypted with the clipper chip the law enforcement field is first decrypted with the family key giving documentation certifying that tap has been authorized for the party associated with serial number is then sent via secure fax to each of the key escrow agents who return also via secure fax u1 and u2 u1 and u2 are xored together to produce the unit key and is decrypted to get the session key finally the message stream is decrypted all this will be accomplished through special black box decoder so no technical provision will be taken to place timeout on these warrants this would be unique possibility to realize such technical restriction by letting the escrow agencies perform the decoding of the session key just take modem lines instead of secure fax is this such bad idea successor to the clipper chip called capstone by the government and myk by mykotronx has already been developed it will include the skipjack algorithm the digital signature standard dss the secure hash algorithm sha method of key exchange fast exponentiator and randomizer prototoype will be available for testing on april and the chips are expected to be ready for delivery in june or july wow how does the randomizer work are the sha and key exchange secret or publicly known key exchange is dh guess it seems that those who are opposed to this chip shall have tough time your government realy means to act friendly greetings germano caronni instruments register only through things they re designed to register space still contains infinite unknowns pgp key id germano caronni caronni nessie cs id ethz ch fd560ccf586f3da747ea3c94dd01720f newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu csn yuma holland from holland cs colostate edu douglas craig holland subject re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only sender news yuma acns colostate edu news account message id apr22 yuma acns colostate edu date thu apr gmt references r0ausinni01 senator bedfellow mit edu apr20 shearson com r47l1inn8gq senator bedfellow mit edu nntp posting host beethoven cs colostate edu organization colorado state university computer science department lines in article r47l1inn8gq senator bedfellow mit edu jfc athena mit edu john carr writes in most cases information you come by properly is yours to use as you wish but there are certainly exceptions if you write paper which includes sufficiently detailed information on how to build nuclear weapon it is classified as understand the law nuclear weapons design is automatically classified even if you do the work yourself believe you are then not allowed to read your own paper hate to mess up your point but it is incredibly easy to learn how to make nuclear weapon the hard part is getting the radioactives to put in it have you ever read tom clancy the sum of all fears it describes in great detail how palestinian terrorist group constructed nuclear bomb using stolen actually found plutonium with some help from an east german nuclear physicist for some non fiction read tom clancy article five minutes till midnight it shows how terrorist group could construct nuke using neptunium low grade radioactive waste product dumped in toxic waste sites and forgotten about he also claims information on constructing nuke is easily found in any large library sounds kind of scary doesn it less serious example if you tell drivers about speed trap they are about to run into you can be fined even though you might argue that you broke no law when you discovered the location of the policeman the charge is interfering with police officer which is quite similar what you would be doing by reverse engineering the clipper chip don tell me that you think this violates the constitution find some court cases which have struck down such laws many people would not be comforted by the fact that the government violated their rights when it imprisoned them don know whether you could get busted for warning of speedtrap doug holland doug holland anyone who tries to take away my freedom holland cs colostate edu of speech will have to pry it from my pgp key available by mail cold dead lips xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet optilink brad from brad optilink com brad yearwood newsgroups sci crypt alt privacy clipper subject re would clipper make good cover for other encryption method message id optilink com date apr gmt references apr20 eff org strnlghtc5t42t j9b netcom com organization optilink corporation petaluma ca lines in article strnlghtc5t42t j9b netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes chances are the government has thought of this and just anyone won be permitted access to enough of the internals to make fake clipper chip chances are that the government has classified some details of the internals at very high level and manufacturers are required to observe security safeguards and clearances corresponding to that level assume in this case the usual canard adversary of narcotraficantes they probably have more cash than the kgb did and they re probably more generous at handing it out it will be easier than ever to find or cultivate walkers and pollards for the keys and it will be easy enough to find someone to reverse engineer the chip unless the tamper proofing is damned clever and effective brad yearwood brad optilink com uunet pyramid optilink brad petaluma ca xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net agate ucbvax silverton berkeley edu djb from djb silverton berkeley edu bernstein newsgroups sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy clipper subject re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine message id apr2207 silverton berkeley edu date apr gmt references apr20 ulysses att com c5sy1z td demon co uk apr21 ulysses att com organization ir lines in article apr21 ulysses att com smb research att com steven bellovin writes and key size is one of the things that can be verified externally gee say they feed the bit key through snefru and take the first bits of the result then use those bits as the real key how do you figure out that each key is one of equal keys you can try birthday attack but if the key can be changed only once second then you will need several lifetimes to get reliable statistics somehow don think you could catch the nsa at this sort of skulduggery dan xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy comp org eff talk newsgroups sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy comp org eff talk path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net agate boulder tigger bear from bear tigger cs colorado edu bear giles subject re the secret source of that announcement message id apr22 colorado edu sender news colorado edu the daily planet nntp posting host tigger cs colorado edu organization national oceanic atmospheric adminstration boulder labs references r3vjhinn5iq dns1 nmsu edu gradyc5unp0 d21 netcom com distribution inet date thu apr gmt lines andrew molitor amolitor nmsu edu wrote monitor my phonecalls monitor usenet they may collect the data but making sense of it is another matter on sci crypt graduate cs major with strong math background and experienced programmer taking cryptology course keyword for alleged nsa filters on sci skeptic an ex physics major who new age flake talking about silly things like how person expectations colors what he sees on talk religion newage physics geek who enjoys squashing interesting idea with wasp science although do write occasional posts showing minimal knowledge of zen mythology etc could go on but sure you see my point single person but react differently on different groups admittedly in part because contrarian you always shouts but on the other hand on top of that loath certainty and have taken public positions in the past for no reason other than to challenge conventional wisdom wish them luck in figuring out who am based on that information they can probably figure out liberal with technical degree but humanistic interests from common thread throughout my posts but that describes fair portion of the users of internet bear giles bear cs colorado edu fsl noaa gov newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu msuinfo uchinews att out cbnewsh cbnewsh cb att com wcs from wcs anchor ho att com bill stewart subject re an open letter to mr clinton organization sorcerer apprentice cleaning services date thu apr gmt message id wcs apr21201322 rainier att com in reply to strnlght netcom com message of sat apr gmt references apr16 yuma acns colostate edu strnlghtc5m2cv hx netcom com sender news cbnewsh cb att com netnews administrator nntp posting host rainier ho att com lines in article strnlghtc5m2cv hx netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes here simple way to convert the clipper proposal to an unexceptionable one make it voluntary that is you get high quality secure nsa classified technology if you agree to escrow your key otherwise you are on your own that the disturbing part use of other products is voluntary for now and the press releases talk about the white house unwillingness to decide that citizens have right to good commercial crypto gear and about how commercial alternatives will be permitted as long as they provide key escrow services that clear implication that they re considering banning alternatives additionally use of real alternatives isn totally legal you re not allowed to export really good crypto equipment except to the government friends the australian government you can only export even bad crypto equipment with their permission and the regulators who control the cellular telephone companies make sure there are only two competitors so joe garage cellular can start offering secure service pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com at bell labs m312 holmdel nj no from new jersey only work in cyberspace white house commect line fax xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt comp org eff talk newsgroups sci crypt comp org eff talk path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu uwm edu msuinfo uchinews att out cbnewsh cbnewsh cb att com wcs from wcs anchor ho att com bill stewart subject re clipper considered harmful organization sorcerer apprentice cleaning services distribution inet date thu apr gmt message id wcs apr21204048 rainier att com in reply to shirriff sprite berkeley edu message of apr gmt references optilink com r24us oeh agate berkeley edu sender news cbnewsh cb att com netnews administrator nntp posting host rainier ho att com lines in article r24us oeh agate berkeley edu shirriff sprite berkeley edu ken shirriff writes in article optilink com brad optilink com brad yearwood writes finally because there is essentially no possibility of intercepting in realtime the scrutable content of communications between stolen instruments there will exist strong motivation to record and archive all communications in the network for ex post facto scrutiny once some criminal act is discovered and the instruments involved have been identified all is very big number the at long distance network has around t3 trunks mbit sec which is on the order of bits sec that doesn even count the amount of traffic in the local phone companies or our long distance competitors it about exabytes tapes second which is pretty large even for the nsa on the other hand can easily see them recording the traffic for interesting people such as dissidents suspected criminals foreign telephone calls and anybody noticed using encryption as ken shiriff speculates recording encrypted traffic will probably be judged not to be an invasion of privacy pretty soon pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com at bell labs m312 holmdel nj no from new jersey only work in cyberspace white house commect line fax xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net agate boulder ucsu spot colorado edu andersom from andersom spot colorado edu marc anderson subject sorry folks read this message id apr22 ucsu colorado edu sender news ucsu colorado edu usenet news system nntp posting host spot colorado edu organization university of colorado boulder references apr19 cs ucla edu rdippold qualcom apr21 ucsu colorado edu distribution na date thu apr gmt lines in article apr21 ucsu colorado edu andersom spot colorado edu marc anderson writes the date have for this is note clinton statements about encryption in the rd paragraph guess this statement doesen contradict what you said though cut here washington upi the war on drugs is about to get fresh start president clinton told delegates to the national federation of police commisioners convention in washington in the first speech on the drug issue since his innaugural clinton said that his planned escalation of the drug war would make everything so far seem so half hearted that for all practical just found out from my source that this article was joke heh heh it seemed pretty damn convincing to me from the start just didn notice the smiley at the end of the article and there were few other hints which should of caught anyway guess this joke did turn out to resemble clinton true feelings at least to some extent sorry about that marc andersom spot colorado edu newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet microsoft wingnut anthonyf from anthonyf microsoft com anthony francisco subject re clipper and ranting libertarians message id apr22 microsoft com date apr gmt organization microsoft corp keywords clipper clinton rant rave libertarians references apr199318412005 violet ccit arizona edu distribution usa lines just little nitpicking wasn it the government that required standard railway gauge didn that improve things please don misunderstand utter suspicious of this clipper chip why hold the design top secret was this work around the law that says that any discoveries made by people working for the government is public domain nih class library etc des has its designs published all over the place and it is considered fairly strong although could be stronger ants path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu crabapple srv cs cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net uunet digex com digex com not for mail from steve access digex com steve brinich newsgroups sci crypt subject fear uncertainty doubt date apr organization express access online communications greenbelt md usa lines message id r4vo3 koj access digex net nntp posting host access digex net suspect that the decisive element in the political battle will be the fud fear uncertainty doubt factor if the people who would be end users of the cripple chip hear of the whole debate only vaguely the government says it solid other people in the field say it swiss cheese the balance of doubt could shift against the feds any attempt to limit other forms of encryption could then be presented as the government covering its own butt by protecting its poor product from superior competition comments path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net noc near net uunet comp vuw ac nz waikato ac nz aukuni ac nz cs18 cs aukuni ac nz pgut1 newsgroups sci crypt subject re how large are commercial keys message id apr22 cs aukuni ac nz from pgut1 cs aukuni ac nz peter gutmann date thu apr gmt references apr20 ee eng ohio state edu organization computer science dept university of auckland lines in apr20 ee eng ohio state edu butzerd maumee eng ohio state edu dane butzer writes what are the typical sizes for keys for commercial secret key algorithms know des is bits tripple des is bits and idea is bits is there anything made in the us that has bit keys anything anywhere that has larger keys ve heard that rc2 can be scaled to arbitrarily large keys but is this actually implemented anywhere my mdc cipher which uses any one way hash function as cfb mode stream cipher the current implementation uses md5 uses key of up to bits that is you can use bit key if you want and copy it over the entire bit range or you can use the entire bits runtime is independant of key size the system runs slightly slower than md5 itself presume rc2 and rc4 use similar system or possibly they just hash an arbitrary length key down to bits maybe using something like md5 peter xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com emory sol ctr columbia edu eff rita from rita eff org rita marie rouvalis subject re sorry folks read this message id apr22 eff org originator rita eff org sender usenet eff org nntp news poster nntp posting host eff org organization enormes rebajas online references rdippold qualcom apr21 ucsu colorado edu apr22 ucsu colorado edu distribution na date thu apr gmt lines in article apr22 ucsu colorado edu andersom spot colorado edu marc anderson writes just found out from my source that this article was joke heh heh it seemed pretty damn convincing to me from the start just didn notice the smiley at the end of the article and there were few other hints which should of caught people took this article seriously mean know it the net and all but the prankster didn even have clinton sound bites right rita rouvalis rita village com xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net noc near net uunet munnari oz au comp vuw ac nz waikato ac nz aukuni ac nz cs18 cs aukuni ac nz pgut1 newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk subject re once tapped your code is no good any more message id apr22 cs aukuni ac nz from pgut1 cs aukuni ac nz peter gutmann date thu apr gmt references rwing uucp apr19 cs ucla edu rdippold qualcom apr21 ucsu colorado edu organization computer science dept university of auckland lines in apr21 ucsu colorado edu andersom spot colorado edu marc anderson writes the date have for this is note clinton statements about encryption in the rd paragraph guess this statement doesen contradict what you said though cut here washington upi the war on drugs is about to get fresh start president clinton told delegates to the national federation of police commisioners convention in washington in the first speech on the drug issue since his innaugural clinton said that his planned escalation of the drug war would make everything so far seem so half hearted that for all practical purposes this war is only beginning now he repeatedly emphasized his view that regardless of what has been tried or who has tried it or how long they ve been trying it this is day one to me the audience at the convention whose theme is how do we spell fiscal relief interrupted clinton frequently with applause clinton program presented in the speech follows the outline given in his campaign position papers cabinet level drug czar and boot camps for first time youthful offenders he did however cover in more detail his plans for improved enforcement methods this year crime bill will have teeth not bare gums clinton said in particular his administration will place strict controls on data formats and protocols and require the registration of so called cryptographic keys in the hope of denying drug dealers the ability to communicate in secret clinton said the approach could be used for crackdowns on other forms of underground economic activity such as the deficit causing tax evaders who live in luxury at the expense of our grandchildren clinton expressed optimism that the drug war can be won because even though not everyone voted for bill clinton last november everyone did vote for candidate who shares my sense of urgency about fighting the drug menace the advocates of legalization the advocates of surrender may be very good at making noise clinton said but when the american people cast their ballots it only proved what knew all along that the advocates of surrender are nothing more than microscopic fringe just doing quick reality check here is this for real or did someone invent it to provoke reaction from people it sounds more like the sort of thing you have heard suitably rephrased from the leader of certain german political party in the peter xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt comp org eff talk newsgroups sci crypt comp org eff talk alt law enforcement path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech news feed peachnet edu umn edu csus edu netcom com rlglende from rlglende netcom com robert lewis glendenning subject re estimating wiretap costs benefits message id rlglendec5vlg1 jsv netcom com organization netcom online communication services guest references apr20 kronos arc nasa gov rlglendec5t133 en3 netcom com c5v39p ag0 news claremont edu date thu apr gmt lines am most embarassed that my irrate intemperate post is still circulating have been chided by experts for my behavior now agree with all of them although some were no more restrained in their speech than was have apologized to robin hanson lew lew glendenning rlglende netcom com perspective is worth iq points niels bohr or somebody like that path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet psgrain ee und ac za csir co za nuustak duck from duck nuustak csir co za paul ducklin newsgroups sci crypt subject re do we need the clipper for cheap security date apr organization csir south africa lines message id duck nuustak references aa05465 pizzabox demon co uk rdippold qualcom nntp posting host nuustak csir co za disclaimer none of the opions expressed herein are the official disclaimer opinions of the csir or any of its subsidiaries disclaimer so don freak out at us about anything gtoal gtoal com graham toal writes can someone tell me if hardware compression is or is not needed to run digital speech down think it is ve heard it not lets say bit samples would raw data at the corresponding sampling rate be usable if not how fancy does the compression need to be it all easy with dsp the olivetti quaderno for example great kg subnotebook palmtop pc sorry for the plug folks but olivetti don seem to be doing good job marketing it themselves includes sound digitisation hardware they provide vocoders for their dsp which produce varous bit rates there one which gives pretty acceptable voice quality at kbit sec just right for bis modem their dsp can play and record at the same time too so you wouldn need to play two way radio you can also download code to the dsp subunit though you need software development kit for the dsp in question dunno which it is if you wanted to produce your own vocoder for say speeds paul paul ducklin duck nuustak csir co za csir computer virus lab box pretoria africa path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech news feed peachnet edu umn edu math fu berlin de fauern ira uka de germany eu net unidus rz uni duesseldorf de lannert rz uni duesseldorf de tsos from tsos uni duesseldorf de detlef lannert newsgroups sci crypt subject re facinating facts bit serial number possibly fixed s1 and s2 date thu apr gmt organization universitaetsrechenzentrum heinrich heine universitaet duesseldorf lines message id tsos uni duesseldorf de references apr19 guvax acc georgetown edu pmetzger apr20065402 snark shearson com nntp posting host lannert rz uni duesseldorf de in article pmetzger apr20065402 snark shearson com pmetzger snark shearson com perry metzger writes hmmm we must assume that generating the unit key from the serial number rather than generating it from randomly selected u1 and u2 is an intentional way of assuring fail safe for the government is completedly determined given s1 s2 and if s1 and s2 do not change even if they remain secret wonder if they can somehow be back derived given enough unit key serial number pairs maybe such pairs suffice to reconstruct s1 and s2 by such back door in the encryption algorithm perhaps it would be possible for the manufacturer to get the keys of all chips that were programmed in one session this would not btw enable anybody else to retrieve the keys in the same way because they ll never get bunch of pairs with identical s1 and s2 note that these have to be constant for the whole batch by the very nature of the procedure they have to be typed in manually by the random number supplying agents and was wondering why they ll always do chips in one session since the procedure described by ms denning imposes high costs on the production of every chip at least three persons for one hour each plus the cost of laptop finally blown to pieces in spectacular hollywood like bonfire add travelling expenses drinks and lighting divide the sum by there won be larger demand not from the private sector anyway and let me mention one other thought that certainly has occurred to all the notoriously paranoid people in this group before who is going to verify that no interested party will perform tempest attacks on the vault where there so much smoke and mirrors there can be nice honest fire but something really worth hiding detlef lannert dc3ek mail tsos rz uni duesseldorf de pgp key via server or finger lannert clio rz uni duesseldorf de am psmith oh you re smith are you with preliminary which however is not sounded wodehouse xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy clipper newsgroups sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu linac att att ulysses ulysses smb from smb research att com steven bellovin subject re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine message id apr22 ulysses att com date thu apr gmt references apr20 ulysses att com c5sy1z td demon co uk apr21 ulysses att com apr2207 silverton berkeley edu organization at bell laboratories lines in article apr2207 silverton berkeley edu djb silverton berkeley edu bernstein writes in article apr21 ulysses att com smb research att com steven bellovin writes and key size is one of the things that can be verified externally gee say they feed the bit key through snefru and take the first bits of the result then use those bits as the real key how do you figure out that each key is one of equal keys you can try birthday attack but if the key can be changed only once second then you will need several lifetimes to get reliable statistics you re right and retract the suggestion still wonder that there are only bits of key information should in principle be detectable maybe some variant of the tests rivest et al did to demonstrate that des was probably not group it should make an interesting paper black box analysis of cryptosystem xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu swrinde ringer lonestar utsa edu whughes from whughes lonestar utsa edu william hughes subject re tempest message id apr22 ringer cs utsa edu sender news ringer cs utsa edu nntp posting host lonestar utsa edu organization university of texas at san antonio references apr20 colnet cmhnet org apr21 lehman com apr22 infodev cam ac uk distribution na date thu apr gmt lines in article apr22 infodev cam ac uk rja14 cl cam ac uk ross anderson writes res colnet cmhnet org rob stampfli writes wouldn second monitor of similar type scrolling gibberish and adjacent to the one being used provide reasonable resistance to tempest attacks we ve got tempest receiver in the lab here and there no difficulty in picking up individual monitors their engineering tolerances are slack enough that they tend to radiate on different frequencies even where they overlap you can discriminate because they have different line synch frequencies you can lock in on one and average the others out the signals are weird in any case with varying polarisations and all sorts of interactions with the building just moving folded dipole around is also highly effective as randomised means of switching from one monitor to another hell just set up spark jammer or some other very electrically noisy device or build an active farrady cage around the room with noise signal piped into it while these measures will not totally mask the emissions of your equipment they will provide sufficient interference to make remote monitoring chancy proposition at best there is of course the consideration that these measures may and almost cretainly will cause certain amount of interference in your own systems it matter of balancing security versus convenience btw an ex air force telecommunications systems control supervisor and telecommunications cryptographic equipment technician remember waco who will the government decide to murder next maybe you opinions are mine don care if you blame the university or the state newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net ira uka de math fu berlin de news th darmstadt de minnie usenet from pom anke imsd uni mainz de prof dr klaus pommerening subject des init vector as additional key message id pqscbcnh minnie zdv uni mainz de keywords des cbc cfb key search sender usenet minnie zdv uni mainz de usenet news system nntp posting host anke imsd uni mainz de organization johannes gutenberg universitaet mainz date thu apr gmt lines the recent discussion in this news group suggests that key search attack against des is quite feasible now but normally des is applied in cbc or cfb mode where one chooses random init vector of bytes questions makes it sense to handle the init vector as an additional key then we have bit key if yes is anything known about the security of this key scheme can we break it faster than by exhaustive search through the bit key space klaus pommerening institut fuer medizinische statistik und dokumentation der johannes gutenberg universitaet obere zahlbacher strasse mainz germany xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu caen uvaarpa murdoch hopper lfoard from lfoard hopper virginia edu lawrence foard subject re once tapped your code is no good any more message id c5vmf3 mbt murdoch acc virginia edu sender usenet murdoch acc virginia edu organization itc uva community access unix internet project references rwing uucp rdippold qualcom apr21 ucsu colorado edu apr22 cs aukuni ac nz date thu apr gmt lines in article apr22 cs aukuni ac nz pgut1 cs aukuni ac nz peter gutmann writes article deleted just doing quick reality check here is this for real or did someone invent it to provoke reaction from people it sounds more like the sort of thing you have heard suitably rephrased from the leader of certain german political party in the it sounds like joke but then the war on drugs has always been joke join the pythagorean reform church repent of your evil irrational numbers and bean eating ways accept into your heart call the pythagorean reform church bbs at path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech swrinde cs utexas edu uunet pilchuck seahcx phred harryb from harryb phred uucp harry barnett newsgroups sci crypt subject re text of white house announcement and as on clipper chip encryption message id phred uucp date apr gmt references apr19 yuma acns colostate edu sender news phred uucp reply to harryb phred uucp followup to sci crypt organization physio control lines in article yuma acns colostate edu holland cs colostate edu douglas craig holland writes in article apr19 afterlife ncsc mil rlward1 afterlife ncsc mil robert ward writes in article bontchev fbihh bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de writes and since the us constitutions guarantees the right to every american to bear arms why is not every american entitled as matter of have you read the applicable part of the constitution and interpreted it in context if not please do so before posting this misinterpretation again it refers to the right of the people to organize militia not for individuals to carry handguns grenades and assault rifles read the constitution yourself the second amendment says the right to bear arms shall not be infringed so well regulated militia may be more easily formed have an interpretation of the second that shows there are no qualifications to the right to keep and bear arms if you want can mail it to you by the way gun talk belongs in talk politics guns doug holland mr ward before you start blathering about your skill interpreting the constitution it might be helpful to learn to read after review with high school english teacher emphasizing participial phrases you might start with the second amendment and follow it up with th congress nd session committee print the right to keep and bear arms of the subcomittee on the constitution of the committee on the judiciary united states senate th congress second session february gpo no this authoritative heavily researched and annotated document clearly turns your interpretation into specious claptrap which is polite way of saying utter bullshit in spite of your false assertion to the contrary the second amendment does protect the right of the individual citizen in his capacity as an individual to keep and bear arms and mr holland imho blatantly and harmfully false information asserted as fact and globally distributed deserves globally distributed rebuttal in the forum in which it is posted and besides this site doesn carry harryb phred data io com phred harryb data io com no free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms the strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is as last resort to protect themselves against tyranny in government thomas jefferson xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security pgp comp org eff talk path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net ira uka de scsing switch ch arnes si cathy ijs si lavrencic from borut lavrencic ijs si newsgroups sci crypt alt security pgp comp org eff talk subject re the secret source of that announcement message id apr22 cathy ijs si date apr references r3vjhinn5iq dns1 nmsu edu gradyc5unp0 d21 netcom com reply to borut lavrencic ijs si distribution inet organization stefan institute lj slovenia lines in article gradyc5unp0 d21 netcom com grady netcom com ef221 writes andrew molitor amolitor nmsu edu wrote monitor my phonecalls monitor usenet provide only cryptosystems they can easily crack etc etc this is not to say that they don they might but you don know that they do and you have no evidence that they do for almost all values of you it follows therefore that for most values of you your claims about the nsa border on paranoia andrew or maybe the germans should have been little more paranoid about their engima with respect to turing and the british how about the cracking of the zimmerman telegram would little more paranoia have helped the germans here maybe the nsa should have been little more paranoid about emma woikin or joseph sidney petersen jr or maybe you want to talk about macmillan publishers cooperation with the cia and nsa to suppress yardley japanese diplomatic secrets or even kahn the codebreakers paranoia right the most popular cipher systems in captured soviet spies was the one time pad even with the necessity of keeping incriminating evidence about is known to be the only proven unbreakable system soviet paranoia right and what do you think the nsa does with its wullenwebers and huge rhombics pointed embassy row and their sites near satellite uplink and downlink sites duh grady netcom com ef221 e2 ad d3 d1 c6 f3 fc ac f7 one case of slovenian paranoia once upon time tried to walk over the famous marathon field not far away from athens could not do that mostly becouse the field is now huge antenna farm probably greek comint installation would you agree borut lavrencic sc si mail ac ijs lavrencic stefan institute internet borut lavrencic ijs si university of ljubljana phone si ljubljana slovenia pgp public key available on request dolgo smois kalis ovraz nikei njihk ocnoo dkril ivseb ipika newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net news centerline com uunet pipex ibmpcug exnet dcs ed ac uk pdc from pdc dcs ed ac uk paul crowley subject re do we need the clipper for cheap security message id c5uphy gh7 dcs ed ac uk sender cnews dcs ed ac uk usenet news admin reply to pdc dcs ed ac uk paul crowley organization edinburgh university references aa10506 pizzabox demon co uk apr21 shearson com date wed apr gmt lines quoting pmetzger snark shearson com perry metzger in article apr21 shearson com whats the difference between bis modem and bis modem how fast do the fastest modems go how far can voice be compressed ve seen various assertions about this but anyone with the straightforward bits per second figures will be my friend forever paul crowley pdc dcs ed ac uk trust me know what doing fold fish for jesus newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net news centerline com uunet pipex ibmpcug exnet dcs ed ac uk pdc from pdc dcs ed ac uk paul crowley subject re hard drive security for fbi targets message id c5uppn gkm dcs ed ac uk sender cnews dcs ed ac uk usenet news admin reply to pdc dcs ed ac uk paul crowley organization edinburgh university references c4ukkz g6 telebit com bu edu apr13 yuma acns colostate edu apr21 midway uchicago edu date wed apr gmt lines if forgot doesn have as much credibility as you like consider this alternative somewhere on the hard disk duplicated few times keep bit random number when the bit digest of your passphrase is computed it is xorred with the random number before being used as the key for your hard disk writing random junk over the random numbers makes the hard disk unreadable by anyone now if you were merely to claim that you have written random junk over the xor key no one would be able to tell whether or not you were telling the truth this is perjury and vunerable to rubber hose cryptography but otherwise effective paul crowley pdc dcs ed ac uk trust me know what doing fold fish for jesus newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net torn nott bnrgate bnr co uk uknet pavo csi cam ac uk gtf1000 from gtf1000 cus cam ac uk falk subject alt security pgp message id apr22 infodev cam ac uk sender news infodev cam ac uk usenet news nntp posting host bootes cus cam ac uk organization of cambridge england date thu apr gmt lines begin pgp signed message hi all does anyone know of unix utility allowing encrypted telnet sessions using public key like something so that nobody can snoop my password or session text while logging in remotely over the network thanks please report unsigned hence unauthorised messages purportedly from me sent after gtf1000 cus cam ac uk begin pgp signature version iqbvagubk9zxmtqrcjh0adt3aqfhrwh9hwbpywwr peoco9glpoz5odkhynw8 ajiif6tsm ymqbwmvholm7bub4jpybqanpkmz8tdd4tyuinsx68cvg gw7z end pgp signature path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net torn nott bnrgate bnr co uk uknet acorn armltd abaum from abaum armltd uucp allen baum newsgroups sci crypt subject re bit keyseach machine message id armltd uucp date apr gmt references apr20 ulysses att com apr21 lokkur dexter mi us bb71018 c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu apr21 magnus acs ohio state edu organization advanced risc machines ltd lines jebright magnus acs ohio state edu james ebright writes regarding nsa monitoring of us military code traffic btw folks nsa wasn being given the keys and the walker spy case shows for some of the systems the kgb didn need them either on the contrary the walker spy case is one where the kgb was given keys as recall allen baum apple computer baum apple com abaum armltd co uk newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel news udel edu darwin sura net bogus sura net howland reston ans net agate ames pacbell com uop csus edu netcom com pdh from pdh netcom com subject re an open letter to mr clinton message id pdhc5vriq l43 netcom com organization netcom on line communication services guest references apr16 yuma acns colostate edu date thu apr gmt lines ld231782 lance colostate edu detweiler writes quite astonished shocked and appalled at this serious frontal assault on emerging american freedoms the clinton administration nor any other government agency has any legitimate role whatsoever in regulating cryptography to do so is tantamount to regulating acceptable speech and is blatantly unconstitutional perhaps we should rename this year in honor of such an illustrious proposal let the crappy chip live in infamy and the adminstration receive great shame and discredit for this bizarre misadventure imho encryption is also protected under the second amendment of the constitution of the united states am outraged that my tax money is being used to develop technology to restrict my freedoms far beyond reasonable measures the government will have my full uncooperation and disobedience on any serious threat to my liberties such as this and call on everyone with an interest in sensible government to resist and defy this proposal the administration does not seem to understand that they are merely subservient instrument to implement the will of the public and hence anyone involved in this proposal in this respect is wholly negligent and remiss in performing their lawful duty am not surprised that this administration is doing this could have told you so cryptography is neutral technology if everybody has strong cryptography including policemen bureacrats businessmen housewives thugs and hoodlums we have sustainable equilibrium anything less is an unworkable anti egaltarian arrangement intrinsically antithetical to american freedoms and guaranteed to collapse under its own weight of inherent impracticality we don need to compromise on issues of freedom privacy has always been something that has the effect of restricting out ability to prosecute criminals we are supposed to have the presumption of innocence have the right to pull the curtains over my windows and close my door and the police may not come in if perform crim in my home they will have to find out by means other than simply looking encryption is to my data as the window curtains are to my home simple enough for too long our government has demonstrated itself to be increasingly hostile and serious obstacle to economic vitality and protecting americans and yet the people vote for these people because they come out lie to them about promising to fix things the administration has to be committed to leaving private industries alone esp on this issue the government has no legitimate role in regulating the content of communications law enforcement agencies must be prepared to forfeit their surveillance bludgeon they are soon and inevitably to be disarmed of it you mean they might have to go back to actually working to do their job oh heavens no such laws can be constitutionally sound and this is equivalent to veiled threat which don appreciate this kind of extortion tends to agitate me and others into radicalism will trade threats for threats and violation for violation perhaps the first amendment definitely the second and fifth if the administration did say this it would find itself impeached for reckless and outrageous disregard of essential established entrenched and explicit constitutional privacy guarantees the administration would have no legal standing whatsoever such an action would be egregiously illegal and criminal and wholly untolerated and disregarded by vast segments of the population unfortunately the vast segments of the population are misinformed they just haven appended sr to the name of out country yet this is an outright dingaling denning lie the two aims of privacy and surveillance are intrinsically and fundamentally incompatible and you have to work for the nsa to think otherwise americans are about to discover ways through the use of technology to preserve their inalienable but forgotten freedoms that have slowly been eroded away by an increasingly distant and unresponsive and unrepresentative government seriously doubt that the nsa thinks that privacy and surveillance are compatible doubt of any smart person in any other agency thinks so either the problem is that they simply hold privacy to be of no value at all phil howard pdh netcom com ka9wgn spell protection a1 right wing conservative capitalists are out to separate you from your money left wing liberal do gooders are out to separate you from everything else xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu utnut torn nott dgbt rick dgbt doc ca debra dgbt doc ca jhan from jhan debra dgbt doc ca jerry han subject overreacting was re once tapped your code is no good any more message id apr22 rick dgbt doc ca sender news rick dgbt doc ca nntp posting host debra dgbt doc ca organization communications research centre ottawa distribution na date thu apr gmt lines in this giant bally ho over this clipper chip noticed rather disturbing trend in some of the mail and posts ve tossing back and forth somebody asked me what was wrong about overreacting in cases such as this the reason is very simple how many people do you want to die in riot in new civil war everybody is jumping up and down and screaming about it and worried that people are going to reach for their hammers and rifles before their pens and paper can people work within the system before trying to break it examine your history books and find out how many armed revolutions led to democratic or democratic style governments think you ll only find one in over five thousand years of written history that not very good odds somebody once said something like armed violence is meant only to be used in response to an armed attack it is not meant to be used in agression this is the difference between self defence and murder let try to avoid killing things eh there enough blood shed in the world without adding couple of riots civil wars etc probably overreacting but what ve read scared me lot don want my children growing up in war zone jerry han crc doc div of behavioural research jhan debra dgbt doc ca these are my opinions and my opinions only proud and frozen member of the mighty warriors band memories of those ve left behind still ringing in my ears genesis xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net agate doc ic ac uk uknet pavo csi cam ac uk rja14 from rja14 cl cam ac uk ross anderson subject re tempest message id apr22 infodev cam ac uk sender news infodev cam ac uk usenet news nntp posting host ely cl cam ac uk organization of cambridge computer lab uk references apr18 yuma acns colostate edu pgf srl03 cacs usl edu apr20 colnet cmhnet org apr21 lehman com distribution na date thu apr gmt lines res colnet cmhnet org rob stampfli writes wouldn second monitor of similar type scrolling gibberish and adjacent to the one being used provide reasonable resistance to tempest attacks we ve got tempest receiver in the lab here and there no difficulty in picking up individual monitors their engineering tolerances are slack enough that they tend to radiate on different frequencies even where they overlap you can discriminate because they have different line synch frequencies you can lock in on one and average the others out the signals are weird in any case with varying polarisations and all sorts of interactions with the building just moving folded dipole around is also highly effective as randomised means of switching from one monitor to another ross xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt privacy clipper newsgroups sci crypt alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel princeton allegra ulysses ulysses smb from smb research att com steven bellovin subject re new reason for clipper alg secrecy message id apr21 ulysses att com date wed apr gmt references x9d92b4w165w tacobel uucp apr20 news clarkson edu organization at bell laboratories lines in article apr20 news clarkson edu tuinstra signal ece clarkson edu soe dwight tuinstra writes first note that the experts will only look at details and of just the algorithm in addition respected experts from outside the government will be offered access to the confidential details of the algorithm to assess its capabilities and publicly report their findings why not the chip design well here the possiblity in addition to encryption the chip pre processes voice signals to make them easier to analyze transcribe electronically the chip once widespread might effectively be part of massively parallel computer for voice grepping the us phone network or the criminal wrong thinking patrons thereof first of all the chip doesn do that it runs at megabits second which is far beyond what you need for voice it obviously intended for data as well and on high speed lines at that second what advantage is there to doing the processing in the phone don care how fancy that chip is it not as fancy as the roomful of analyzers at fort meade running the program they ll have years from now they can update every clipper chip that out there third if they did do this preprocessing in the chip it would probably have serious effect on recognizability of the voice patterns if nothing else that would hurt the acceptability of the product the bis modems are just barely fast enough to do good job on properly massaged voice as is add any more to the mix and you re completely out of the ballpark path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet digex com digex com not for mail from steve access digex com steve brinich newsgroups sci crypt subject s1 s2 date apr organization express access online communications greenbelt md usa lines message id r60ue access digex net nntp posting host access digex net second question why why is such strange procedure used and not real rng this turns those s1 s2 in kind of bottleneck for system security the only theory that makes any sense is that s1 and s2 are either the same for all chips or vary among very few possibilities so that anyone trying to break the encryption by brute force need only plow through the possible serial numbers about one billion multiplied by the number of different s1 s2 combinations path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse cadreor fripp usenet from rj ri cadre com rob defriesse newsgroups sci crypt subject can des code be shipped to canada message id apr22 fripp ri cadre com date apr gmt article fripp apr22 sender usenet fripp ri cadre com usenet news poster account reply to rj ri cadre com organization cadre technologies inc lines nntp posting host someone in canada asked me to send him some public domain des file encryption code have is it legal for me to send it thanx eschew obfuscation rob defriesse mail rj ri cadre com cadre technologies inc phone richmond st fax providence ri don speak for my employer xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt comp org eff talk path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net agate headwall stanford edu rock aurs01 throopw sheol from throopw sheol concert net newsgroups sci crypt comp org eff talk subject re clipper considered harmful message id aurs01 uucp date apr gmt references optilink com r24us oeh agate berkeley edu sender news aurs01 uucp lines from shirriff sprite berkeley edu ken shirriff message id r24us oeh agate berkeley edu it seems likely to me that that large subset of encrypted communications would be archived to tape so they could be read if sometime in the future probable cause arises and warrant is obtained think it is unlikely that data like this could be used in court currently leas can install wiretaps on large numbers of phones record calls without listening to them and then post facto obtain warrants and listen to calls after probable cause is established but this strategy wouldn get the stuff admitted in court at least not in the near term in other words near as can tell the thing that makes such evidence inadmissable is the interception without warrant not the attempt to interpret what was intercepted without warrant be surprised that archiving data without consent would be interpreted as anything but analogous to wiretap by the courts note that that doesn mean think it won be done if technically feasible just as sure many wiretaps are done now without warrants just to fish for avenues to investigate so in the future start surveilance start archiving data trump up some probable cause decrypt post facto after the warrant is in hand and the investigation gets boost from data that sadly won ever be presented to jury while posting for an interesting cautionary tale projecting this archiving scenario to extremes read lacey and his friends collection of sf stories by david drake the us starts down the slippery slope by archiving everyghing but don worry folks it stored in secure repository where nobody but leas with warrants can get to it and by the way we ll be installing cameras on all major streets hey this is nothing new we already have cameras in banks and teller machines don we and then we ll pass laws requiring cameras covering all public places then in some private places then we ll make it crime ever to be out of range of camera except in legally licensed privacy cubicles only alone and with thorough body search before and after but see there still right to privacy we haven curtailed any rights not really and just think how much easier it be to solve crimes in such situation just obtain warrant put on vr helmet and take walk down memory lane and hey nobody ll be tracking you or me no need to be self conscious after all if you re not doing anything illegal funny though while speeding and the radar detector industry became pretty much thing of the past somehow all this didn elminate all crime in the story and somehow politicians got exemptions on grounds of national security and rich corporations got exemptions for their execs on grounds of industrial espionage and the preservation of competition and not everybody was exactly happy with the system can imagine why wayne throop throopw sheol concert net throop aurgate concert net xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security pgp newsgroups sci crypt alt security pgp path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net agate news ucdavis edu csus edu netcom com grady from grady netcom com ef221 subject idea vectors message id gradyc5w2qn netcom com organization capriccioso newsreader tin version pl6 date thu apr gmt lines am testing idea block cipher implementations for correctness and needs some golden test vectors ve looked through the postscript idea chapter but the single example gives me zero degrees of freedom ll contact the inventor if necessary but since we are not paying him money for use of his invention like to offload this from him anybody got vectors no disease vectors please grady netcom com ef221 e2 ad d3 d1 c6 f3 fc ac f7 newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet dove csrc ncsl nist gov clipper from clipper csrc ncsl nist gov clipper chip announcement subject re the secret source of that announcement message id c5w1ac ik9 dove nist gov sender news dove nist gov organization national institute of standards technology references marc apr17211937 oliver mit edu r1om5 c5m slab mtholyoke edu c5uxgv dv7 panix com date thu apr gmt lines in article c5uxgv dv7 panix com habs panix com harry shapiro writes in r1om5 c5m slab mtholyoke edu jbotz mtholyoke edu jurgen botz writes even more interesting the smtp server at csrc ncsl nist gov no longer recognizes the expn and vrfy commands telnet csrc ncsl nist gov smtp trying connected to csrc ncsl nist gov escape character is first org sendmail nist ready at tue apr edt expn clipper command unrecognized seems like sombody didn like your snooping around marc then it is good thing we already have this the csspub mailing list csspab mail gw ncsl nist gov and address on rest of names deleted sigh my version of rn asked me whether really want to send this posting you may as well know that all this stuff about the secret source of the clipper announcement is because of silly mistake am the administrator of csrc ncsl nist gov alias first org it system set up to help out the needs of first forum of incident response and security teams which includes number of world wide incident response teams such as cert cc and other places in europe as to the vrfy and expn commands they are normally disabled since early on we didn want crackers to find out the names of incident response folks on our mailing lists we had disk crash several months ago which required completely rebuilding the files same old story our backups weren especially helpful as you can guess didn remember to re disable vrfy and expn until saw people on the net trying to find out who was behind clipper csrc when saw people names posted here felt it was time to clear things up so expn and vrfy on csrc have always been disabled in the past for reasons having nothing to do with clipper posted the white house announcements at the request of policy folks here because csrc also provides usenet service posted them from an account called clipper also created an alias called clipper that contains the addresses of members of the nist computer security privacy and advisory board set up under law of the computer security act of and addresses of other individuals not affiliated with nist but involved in cryptography security and privacy believe that these individuals were included on this list because nist felt it important to get them the clipper information first hand the clipper alias is there for the benefit of those named above it is not source for information it was set up solely to monitor any initial traffic individuals on the list have requested that they continue to get traffic that is not already duplicated on usenet while you can rightfully say we were bit disorganized in handling this would ask that people stop speculating about any hidden agendas or motives of the individuals on the clipper alias ve already apologized to them for what happened disabling expn and vrfy is an increasingly common practice albeit unfriendly to some and any effect of disabling it again was unintentional john wack path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet ddsw1 not for mail from karl genesis mcs com karl denninger newsgroups sci crypt subject re do we need the clipper for cheap security date apr organization mcsnet chicago il lines message id r6c3r genesis mcs com references aa05465 pizzabox demon co uk nntp posting host localhost mcs com in article aa05465 pizzabox demon co uk gtoal gtoal com graham toal writes gtoal gtoal com graham toal writes in the uk it impossible to get approval to attach any crypto device to the phone network anything that plugs in to our bt phone sockets must be approved for some reason crypto devices just never are whats the difference between bis modem and bis modem not being entirely silly here what pointing out is that the modems that they have already approved for data transmission will work just fine to transmit scrambled vocoded voice absolutely just meant that no secure dedicated crypto device has ever been given approval guerrilla underground devices should be well possible with today high speed modems not that can think of many v32bis modems that are approved either mind you just the overpriced couriers can someone tell me if hardware compression is or is not needed to run digital speech down think it is ve heard it not lets say bit samples would raw data at the corresponding sampling rate be usable if not how fancy does the compression need to be reasonably fancy standard voice circuits run at kbps inter exchange in the us therefore you need to achieve to get standard voice quality if you re willing to give up some quality you need only this is still acceptable from speech standpoint it will be little less faithful to the original but certainly intelligable that all you really need for this application karl denninger karl genesis mcs com you can never please everyone except data line by bankrupting yourself live internet in chicago an mcsnet first xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy clipper newsgroups sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu milano magic mcc com croley from croley magic mcc com david croley subject re new encryption message id apr22 magic mcc com sender news mcc com organization mcc experimental systems lab references apr20 ulysses att com apr21 lokkur dexter mi us r4e9d pdo sol tis com apr21 wam umd edu date thu apr gmt lines in article apr21 wam umd edu psionic wam umd edu haywood blowme writes as promised spoke today with the company mentioned in washington times article about the clipper chip announcement the name of the company is secure communications technology information will be given at the end of this message on how to contact them his belief is that at was made known of the clipper well before the rest of the industry this is for several reasons several of which are this is very good point at obviously knew and participated in the development of the clipper chip this amounts to unfair business practice and gives at an early monopoly on the market hopefully non existant market other companies that compete with at in the cellular market motorola nec etc have grounds to file complaint over this right now the company is afraid that the new clipper chip will put them out of business this is very real possibility so they really need help in stopping the clipper chip from becoming standard if you want to contact them they can be reached at secure communications technology georgia ave suite silver spring md it would seem that the one fact that the government has overlooked in this whole fiasco is the economic standpoint as others have mentioned the most difficulty the clipper chip faces is an economic one let face it the average consumer doesn care or know that the clipper is bad idea if there is perceived need for cellular encryption then the companies will provide one most likely standard will emerge but if the clipper is too expensive and chip is way too much then they will develope their own or buy cheaper one give sct my full support and hope the clipper chip goes the way of the beta video tape format also hope they get sued over re using the name clipper cyberspace david croley mcc exp sys lab place not real no stone no steel croley mcc com ut austin texas ghost unseen the world between path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu pitt edu dsinc ub csn news den mmc com gregb from gregb den mmc com gregb newsgroups sci crypt subject looking for crypto paper message id gregb tosgcla date apr gmt sender news den mmc com news distribution usa organization martin marietta astronautics denver lines nntp posting host tosgcla den mmc com looking for postscript or tex version of paper called public key cryptography written by james nechvatal security technology group national computer systems laboratory national institute of standards and technology gaithersburg md december the version obtained is plain text and all symbolic character formatting has been lost gregb tosgcla den mmc com newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu malgudi oar net chemabs jac55 from jac55 cas org subject re why the clipper algorithm is secret message id apr22 cas org sender usenet cas org organization chemical abstracts service columbus ohio references apr18 iecc cambridge ma us c5pstr lu2 panix com apr20 fsl noaa gov date thu apr gmt lines in article apr20 fsl noaa gov bear kestrel fsl noaa gov bear giles writes in article c5pstr lu2 panix com dfl panix com danny bedlam writes the algorithm is classified because military contract or similar government equivalent to military has been let for this proprietary design that the feds say that nsa developed is there patent is that patent publicly available my betting is that that too is classified unless there has been major change in the law there no such beast as classified patent patents exist to encourage communications and develop the state of the art yes there is the patent can be classified as secret recently saw patent from dealing with nuclear weapons technology that was only declassified in the last couple of years there is of course the problem of enforcing the patent the same thing applies in civilian development you can patent something and declare it trade secret however you can and should mark all software including proprietary code unpublished copyright so that it ever does get exposed you still have some legal protection this is absolutely right alec chambers xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp lang sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com network ucsd edu news service uci edu beckman com dsg4 dse beckman com rubin newsgroups comp lang sci crypt subject re freely distributable public key cryptography code where message id rubin dsg4 dse beckman com from rubin dsg4 dse beckman com arthur rubin date apr gmt references c5ua2j iki gpu utcc utoronto ca c5ukt8 cc1 brunel ac uk moose cs indiana edu organization beckman instruments inc nntp posting host dsg4 dse beckman com lines in moose cs indiana edu marc vanheyningen mvanheyn cs indiana edu writes pgp is not available on the archive site rsa com if it were it would be highly amusing since rsa com actually public key partners but it the same entity is the organization holding the patents which they claim are violated if you actually make use or sell pgp believe those patents also apply in canada but not patent lawyer or anything sorry about double posting but forgot something make use or sell in this context have non standard meanings make means making an encrypted message use may mean using pgp or using an encrypted message sell would probably mean selling an encrypted message it is the message created by patented process incorporated in pgp which infringes arthur rubin rubin dsg4 dse beckman com work beckman instruments brea mcimail com compuserve com arthur pnet01 cts com personal my opinions are my own and do not represent those of my employer path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu usc news service uci edu beckman com dsg4 dse beckman com rubin newsgroups sci crypt subject re key registering bodies message id rubin dsg4 dse beckman com from rubin dsg4 dse beckman com arthur rubin date apr gmt references dockmaster ncsc mil naglec5w79e hl netcom com organization beckman instruments inc nntp posting host dsg4 dse beckman com lines in naglec5w79e hl netcom com nagle netcom com john nagle writes since the law requires that wiretaps be requested by the executive branch and approved by the judicial branch it seems clear that one of the key registering bodies should be under the control of the judicial branch suggest the supreme court or regionally the courts of appeal more specifically the offices of their clerks now that makes sense but the other half must be in non government escrow still like eff but admin their security has not been tested arthur rubin rubin dsg4 dse beckman com work beckman instruments brea mcimail com compuserve com arthur pnet01 cts com personal my opinions are my own and do not represent those of my employer xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security pgp comp org eff talk path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net noc near net uunet mcsun uknet pipex doc ic ac uk dds from dds doc ic ac uk diomidis spinellis newsgroups sci crypt alt security pgp comp org eff talk subject greek comint installation was re the secret source of that announcement followup to soc culture greek date apr gmt organization dept of computing imperial college england lines distribution world message id r6gl0innntl frigate doc ic ac uk references apr22 cathy ijs si nntp posting host scorch doc ic ac uk summary was old us military base keywords marathon us base nea makri from article apr22 cathy ijs si by borut lavrencic ijs si in article gradyc5unp0 d21 netcom com grady netcom com ef221 writes the most popular cipher systems in captured soviet spies was the one time pad even with the necessity of keeping incriminating evidence about is known to be the only proven unbreakable system soviet paranoia right and what do you think the nsa does with its wullenwebers and huge rhombics pointed embassy row and their sites near satellite uplink and downlink sites duh one case of slovenian paranoia once upon time tried to walk over the famous marathon field not far away from athens could not do that mostly becouse the field is now huge antenna farm probably greek comint installation would you agree are you sure that the field is in the area you found the antenna farm the tomb ymvos of marathon which herodotus specifies as near the fighting area is in an area open to the public you must be referring to the army base of nea makri it was built by the in the same manner as bases all over the world germany spain philippines turkey etc were built think it was telecommunications hub over the recent years forces have withdrawn from the base and removed all military equipment the area is currently under the control of the greek navy until the all interested parties local goverment central goverment political parties agree on what should be done with the land park recreation area real estate this has nothing to do with cryptography security and the eff have redirected followups to soc culture greek diomidis diomidis spinellis internet dds doc ic ac uk uucp uknet icdoc dds department of computing imperial college london sw7 include dev tty xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net usc news service uci edu beckman com dsg4 dse beckman com rubin newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org ieee subject re once tapped your code is no good any more message id rubin dsg4 dse beckman com from rubin dsg4 dse beckman com arthur rubin date apr gmt references apr17 clarinet com rwing uucp c5so84 hxv demon co uk visicom com distribution na organization beckman instruments inc nntp posting host dsg4 dse beckman com lines in visicom com makey visicom com jeff makey writes in article c5so84 hxv demon co uk graham toal gtoal gtoal com writes am completely baffled by why dorothy denning has chosen to throw away her academic respectability like this she hasn dorothy denning has spent many years earning the professional respect of her colleagues and something won in this manner is not easily lost her support of the clipper no matter how unpopular that position may be serves far more to enhance the clipper respectability than to diminish her own wouldn think so asking people to trust secret algorithm seems unsound to me arthur rubin rubin dsg4 dse beckman com work beckman instruments brea mcimail com compuserve com arthur pnet01 cts com personal my opinions are my own and do not represent those of my employer xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp lang sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net usc news service uci edu beckman com dsg4 dse beckman com rubin newsgroups comp lang sci crypt subject re freely distributable public key cryptography code where message id rubin dsg4 dse beckman com from rubin dsg4 dse beckman com arthur rubin date apr gmt references c5ua2j iki gpu utcc utoronto ca c5ukt8 cc1 brunel ac uk moose cs indiana edu organization beckman instruments inc nntp posting host dsg4 dse beckman com lines in moose cs indiana edu marc vanheyningen mvanheyn cs indiana edu writes pgp is not available on the archive site rsa com if it were it would be highly amusing since rsa com actually public key partners but it the same entity is the organization holding the patents which they claim are violated if you actually make use or sell pgp believe those patents also apply in canada but not patent lawyer or anything the patents don apply in canada think the free trade agreement may provide for recognition of new patents but not old ones arthur rubin rubin dsg4 dse beckman com work beckman instruments brea mcimail com compuserve com arthur pnet01 cts com personal my opinions are my own and do not represent those of my employer xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net howland reston ans net noc near net uunet digex com digex com not for mail from steve access digex com steve brinich newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee subject re overreacting was re once tapped your code is no good any more date apr organization express access online communications greenbelt md usa lines distribution na message id r6g1n rvb access digex net references apr22 rick dgbt doc ca nntp posting host access digex net somebody asked me what was wrong about overreacting in cases such as this the reason is very simple how many people do you want to die in riot in new civil war not me which is precisely why the government must be cut off at the knees when it pulls stunts like this lest the situation worsen to the point where extreme measures are required newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net agate news ucdavis edu csus edu netcom com nagle from nagle netcom com john nagle subject re key registering bodies message id naglec5w79e hl netcom com organization netcom on line communication services guest references dockmaster ncsc mil date thu apr gmt lines since the law requires that wiretaps be requested by the executive branch and approved by the judicial branch it seems clear that one of the key registering bodies should be under the control of the judicial branch suggest the supreme court or regionally the courts of appeal more specifically the offices of their clerks courts already operate substantial record keeping operations some of these records are confidential so the concept of court holding information in confidence in accordance with law has longstanding legal precedents the judiciary is more immune to pressure from the executive branch than any executive branch agency or contractor can be so judicial control of keys is appropriate for the other half of the key suggest unit of congress the general accounting office the gao is congress staff unit for keeping tabs on the executive branch and has an excellent reputation it controlled strictly by congress the executive branch has no authority over it with keys split between the legislative and judicial branches we might have chance of this system working honestly if of course way can be found to keep the keys from being siphoned off before they reach the repositories this should not be construed as an endorsement by me of the whole clipper concept but if we have to have it splitting control across all three branches of government might make it work john nagle path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net bogus sura net udel sbcs sunysb edu insti physics sunysb edu pjhong from pjhong cs sunysb edu joseph hong newsgroups sci crypt subject hidden markov modeling date apr gmt organization institute for theoretical physics lines message id r6hf0 g2i insti physics sunysb edu nntp posting host clio rad sunysb edu summary nsa use of hmm references keywords markov modeling nsa newsreader tin pl3 in the article at last now you can talk to your computer in the may issue of fortune magazine it was mentioned that phoneme prediction used hidden markov modeling this was the statistical method that markov developed to predict letter sequences in pushkin novel eugene onegin it was then said that this technique worked so well that the nsa used it to crack codes does anyone have any references for hmm and how the nsa used it or is this just an extension of the letter frequency tables that we are all using anyway joe pjhong clio rad sunysb edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net nic umass edu neural agk from agk neural hampshire edu andrew kriger newsgroups sci crypt subject re how to detect use of an illegal cipher date apr gmt organization hampshire college amherst ma lines message id r6ibo t99 nic umass edu references qn74ninni38 golden kaleida com betel camelot wv5 rpi edu apr21 chpc org nntp posting host neural hampshire edu could someone repost or send to me via email the original posting of the clipper chip press release thanks andrew kriger hampshire college agk neural hampshire edu andrew kriger three may keep secret hampshire college if two of them are dead agk neural hampshire edu benjamin franklin xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc sdd hp com network ucsd edu nmt edu msnyder from msnyder nmt edu rebecca snyder subject public awareness wasre text of white house announcement and as on clipper chip encryption message id apr21 nmt edu organization new mexico tech references apr17 clarinet com qnpjuinn8ci gap caltech edu rwing uucp distribution na date wed apr gmt lines in article rwing uucp pat rwing uucp pat myrto writes think this is no accident it comes from the same philosophy that the government rules controls the people not the people controlling the government that the unconnected citizens are not sophisticated enough to know what is best for them so the government must tell the people what they need or do not need we know best and the idea that that commoner can defend himself against government eavesdropping or unlawful attack is totally unacceptable to people with this outlook combine this all with pushing for national identity cards with smart chips to encode anything they please internal passport under the guise of streamlining the state people health care system and with you can be certain more jewels yet to come and one sees an extremely ominous trend so what if will be ten years late it still is turning out to be an amazingly accurate prophecy unless lot of people wake up and in hurry one should always have every red warning light and bell and danger flag come up when the government seeks to set itself apart in regard to rights etc from the unconnected unprivileged citizen or should we now be saying subject instead why shouldn the average person have good secure system of data security not dependent on nebulous safeguards for maintaining that security why shouldn the average person be able to defend himself from an agency gone rogue am sure the feds could break into any data they really wanted to but it would take some work and using the same logic one should not be allowed to have good safe unless duplicate of the key or combination are submitted for safekeeping by the government don really see difference philosophically encrypted data sure won evaporate not with such high tech tools as tape recorder the average amerikan today seems to think that the government should be able to eavesdrop on everyone else opinion polls show that most people belive the bill of rights to grant too much freedom to people when it is not identified as such btw if anyone knows of cite for that love to have it not only does this mean that these people are willing to give up everyone else rights they don even know what the bill of rights actually says how can we show the average person not the average usenet reader that people are actually entitiled to these rights so many people don care if the government is taking more and more control of us all little at time if there was some sort of awareness of what the government is trying to do by majority of the us population just think about what could be accomplished but there are so many that trust unthinkingly in whatever the media and government tell them xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech usenet ufl edu travis csd harris com amber kbeal from kbeal amber ken beal newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk subject re once tapped your code is no good any more followup to sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk date apr gmt organization harris csd ft lauderdale fl lines distribution inet message id r6j3t travis csd harris com references c5vmf3 mbt murdoch acc virginia edu nntp posting host amber ssd csd harris com newsreader tin version pl8 lawrence foard lfoard hopper virginia edu wrote in article apr22 cs aukuni ac nz pgut1 cs aukuni ac nz peter gutmann writes article deleted just doing quick reality check here is this for real or did someone invent it to provoke reaction from people it sounds more like the sort of thing you have heard suitably rephrased from the leader of certain german political party in the it sounds like joke but then the war on drugs has always been joke remember seeing it several months ago and it was marked as joke funny how things circulate kenneth beal jr kbeal amber ssd csd harris com use os often does pavlov ring bell nlp tapes learn keep moving street person my responsibility indigo girls better yourself fnord one man gathers what another man spills dead opinions are mine is your religion batf approved pro con progress xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu ub acsu buffalo edu mckee from mckee cs buffalo edu douglas mckee newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee subject re sorry folks read this message id c5w9qw pb acsu buffalo edu date apr gmt references apr19 cs ucla edu rdippold qualcom apr21 ucsu colorado edu apr22 ucsu colorado edu sender nntp acsu buffalo edu distribution na organization state university of new york at buffalo cedar research group lines originator mckee oschuba cs buffalo edu nntp posting host oschuba cs buffalo edu in article apr22 ucsu colorado edu andersom spot colorado edu marc anderson writes in article apr21 ucsu colorado edu andersom spot colorado edu marc anderson writes the date have for this is note clinton statements about encryption in the rd paragraph guess this statement doesen contradict what you said though cut here washington upi the war on drugs is about to get fresh start president clinton told delegates to the national federation of police commisioners convention in washington in the first speech on the drug issue since his innaugural clinton said that his planned escalation of the drug war would make everything so far seem so half hearted that for all practical just found out from my source that this article was joke heh heh it seemed pretty damn convincing to me from the start just didn notice the smiley at the end of the article and there were few other hints which should of caught well isn this just hoot all read on this group is bunch of ppl fearing the misuses of information by the big bad evil govt this just happens to be case of an ordinary joe netter who decided that he would create and or distribute some misinformation ppl buy into bs posts like this know because forwarded copy of the post to my office mate who turned around and was although he won admit it sorry joe ready to get in fight about please if we re going to hold our govt which admittedly has had and still has its problems to high standards then mustn we follow these too electronic freedoms only go so far anyway guess this joke did turn out to resemble clinton true feelings at least to some extent sorry about that marc andersom spot colorado edu hey willing to forgive after of course my office mate takes his extra anti paranoia pills doug mckee mckee cs buffalo edu xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt privacy clipper newsgroups sci crypt alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu convex convex gardner from gardner convex com steve gardner subject re the escrow database sender usenet news eng convex com news access account message id apr22 news eng convex com date thu apr gmt references apr20 shearson com tcmayc5rs6n lz8 netcom com strnlghtc5t3k6 inf netcom com nntp posting host imagine convex com organization engineering convex computer corp richardson tx usa disclaimer this message was written by user at convex computer corp the opinions expressed are those of the user and not necessarily those of convex lines in article strnlghtc5t3k6 inf netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes after the waco massacre and the big brother wiretap chip any tactic is fair this is pernicious nonsense in what way david our government is totally out of control whether you realize it or not know you find it painful to think of your old buddy uncle sam as evil but it true other democracies have fallen before ours is on its way and knee jerk sheep that instinctively trust government are helping it slide power corrupts david why is that so hard to understand xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu utnut torn nott dgbt rick dgbt doc ca debra dgbt doc ca jhan from jhan debra dgbt doc ca jerry han subject re overreacting was re once tapped your code is no good any more message id apr22 rick dgbt doc ca sender news rick dgbt doc ca nntp posting host debra dgbt doc ca organization communications research centre ottawa references apr22 rick dgbt doc ca r6g1n rvb access digex net distribution na date thu apr gmt lines in article r6g1n rvb access digex net steve access digex com steve brinich writes somebody asked me what was wrong about overreacting in cases such as this the reason is very simple how many people do you want to die in riot in new civil war not me which is precisely why the government must be cut off at the knees when it pulls stunts like this lest the situation worsen to the point where extreme measures are required fine then cut them off with pen and paper and not the sword jerry han crc doc div of behavioural research jhan debra dgbt doc ca these are my opinions and my opinions only proud and frozen member of the mighty warriors band memories of those ve left behind still ringing in my ears genesis xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy clipper newsgroups sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel darwin sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu csus edu netcom com strnlght from strnlght netcom com david sternlight subject re new encryption message id strnlghtc5wc3z erw netcom com organization dsi uscrpac references apr21 lokkur dexter mi us r4e9d pdo sol tis com apr21 wam umd edu date thu apr gmt lines psionic wam umd edu whose parenthesized name is either an unfortunate coincidence or casts serious doubt on his bona fides posts message in which he seems willing to take the word of private firm about which he knows little that their new encryption algorithm is secure and contains no trapdoors while seemingly distrusting that of the government about clipper suppose it depends on how paranoid one wishes to be but how does the writer know the firm isn for example an nsa front for purposes of this message how do we know psionic isn don suggest that but post this to point out that there is class of speculation that has no more truth value without lots of hard evidence than the contrary one by the way if psionic had said in lower case letters that the firm claims there was no back door have no problem with that phrasing david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy clipper newsgroups sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net darwin sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu csus edu netcom com strnlght from strnlght netcom com david sternlight subject re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip message id strnlghtc5wcmo fx5 netcom com organization dsi uscrpac references apr20 ulysses att com apr21 lokkur dexter mi us c5uvn4 mf7 austin ibm com date thu apr gmt lines in article c5uvn4 mf7 austin ibm com arussell austin ibm com ag russell writes at the company worked for previously received file that was des encryped and the person that had sent it went on vaction rather than wait two weeks set up straight frontal attack with one key at time it only took two days to crack the file no don have any faith in des taking this at face value though it seems quite dissonant with much else that has been published here about brute force des cracking unless russell was lucky with respect to the key be very interested in whether the program russell used is available in whether he used cleartext recognition algorithm in the program or whether he had to examine each decryption by hand in whether he used known plaintext attack he probably should also tell us given his address what machine he used desktop workstation or super computer depending on his answer this could be an appalling development calling into question both des and rsa des dunno about rsa idea if any bright programmer with little idle machine time can crack single des message in couple of days assuming no tricks that are message specific then here my clipper key nsa give me the chip at once david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt comp lang newsgroups sci crypt comp lang path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net europa eng gtefsd com uunet kgw2 victori from victori xetron com victor iseli subject re freely distributable public key cryptography code where message id c5wd1p hl5 xetron com sender victori xetron com victor iseli organization xetron corporation cincinnati ohio references c5ua2j iki gpu utcc utoronto ca date thu apr gmt lines numerical recipes in fortran pascal has nice section on encryption and decryption based on the des algorithm there is also source code provided think some versions of this book are distributed with the source code on disk the source code can also be ordered from the publisher victor iseli victori xetron com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu andrew cmu edu jb7m from jon bennett jb7m andrew cmu edu newsgroups sci crypt subject ideas on clipper date thu apr organization robotics institute carnegie mellon pittsburgh pa lines message id fpizbg00wc70qokyw andrew cmu edu nntp posting host andrew cmu edu have an idea as to why the encryption algorithm needs to be keep secret and some things that think it implies of course these could all be wrong from the clipper chip technical summary dorothy denning revised april the clipper chip contains classified single key bit block encryption algorithm called skipjack the algorithm uses bit keys compared with for the des and has rounds of scrambling compared with for the des it supports all des modes of operation the algorithm takes clock ticks and in electronic codebook ecb mode runs at mbits per second each chip includes the following components the skipjack encryption algorithm an bit family key that is common to all chips bit serial number this length is subject to change an bit secret key that unlocks all messages encrypted with the chip encrypting with the chip to see how the chip is used imagine that it is embedded in the at telephone security device as it will be suppose call someone and we both have such device after pushing button to start secure conversation my security device will negotiate an bit session key with the device at the other end this key negotiation takes place without the clipper chip in general any method of key exchange can be used such as the diffie hellman public key distribution method once the session key is established the clipper chip is used to encrypt the conversation or message stream digitized voice the telephone security device feeds and into the chip to produce two values the encrypted message stream and law enforcement field which are transmitted over the telephone line the law enforcement field thus contains the session key encrypted under the unit key concatenated with the serial number all encrypted under the family key the law enforcement field is decrypted by law enforcement after an authorized wiretap has been installed suppose knew how the algorithm worked and knew the for my chip but did not know then by cryptanalysis might be able to determine from if law enforcement field not knowing would might make this much harder now suppose that know either legitimately or not if know either because am involved in the conversation or know for party in the conversation may now be able to determine for the other party if know can also defeat the law enforcement field since could make my own with different then the one am using knowing also allows traffic analysis to be performed so might not know what you are saying but could know who you are saying it too now admit that someone trying to compute will not have lots of messages to work from but since we have no way of knowing that the key generation method does not deliberately generate weak keys or for that matter that the published method is in fact used perhaps the will be chosen from know weak keys for the system obviously the compromise of would be disaster both to law enforcement for whom this whole thing is designed and for the people who believe that it is giving them security is but one number and sure that alot of people more then know what it is and if some panel of experts is going to check it over for flaws then many more will know forget grinding chips bribery and blackmail work just fine so am wrong or are these problems jon xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt privacy clipper newsgroups sci crypt alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu darwin sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu csus edu netcom com strnlght from strnlght netcom com david sternlight subject re the escrow database message id strnlghtc5wdvm hqm netcom com organization dsi uscrpac references tcmayc5rs6n lz8 netcom com strnlghtc5t3k6 inf netcom com apr22 news eng convex com date thu apr gmt lines in article apr22 news eng convex com gardner convex com steve gardner writes in article strnlghtc5t3k6 inf netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes after the waco massacre and the big brother wiretap chip any tactic is fair this is pernicious nonsense in what way david our government is totally out of control whether you realize it or not know you find it painful to think of your old buddy uncle sam as evil but it true other democracies have fallen before ours is on its way and knee jerk sheep that instinctively trust government are helping it slide power corrupts david why is that so hard to understand that wasn my point my point is that your implied position about the waco massacre is an assertion cum political position according to cnn poll about of americans think the fbi acted properly and majority think they should have done it the tear gas lot sooner large majority also believe the fbi was not at all responsible for the death of the victims koresh was let avoid the kind of fruitless argument of the sort if hadn then might not have what you call the big brother chip is right now proposal under discussion and it is not yet clear that strong crypto is going to be banned therefore neither justifies any tactic is fair thus the statement is nonsense it is pernicious because any tactic can lead to damaging others as see you know from the tone of your reply there nothing personal intended david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu caen batcomputer reed ogicse netnews nwnet net news washington edu spiff seattleu edu thebes ole rwing pat from pat rwing uucp pat myrto newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee subject re once tapped your code is no good any more message id rwing uucp date apr gmt article rwing references rwing uucp c5so84 hxv demon co uk r21t1 mc access digex net distribution na organization totally unorganized lines in article r21t1 mc access digex net steve access digex com steve brinich writes wonder if she landed such fat fee from cooperation with the nsa in the design and propoganda stages that she doesn care any more which is to say is the nsa totally perfidious or does it at least have the redeeming virtue of taking care of its own of course they take care of their own very well until the person has outlived his her undefined usefulness then elimination becomes consideration pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle wa if all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and am not sure about the former albert einstien xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu pitt edu dsinc ub acsu buffalo edu boyd from boyd acsu buffalo edu daniel boyd newsgroups sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy clipper subject re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip message id c5wfqh acsu buffalo edu date apr gmt references apr20 ulysses att com apr21 lokkur dexter mi us c5uvn4 mf7 austin ibm com strnlghtc5wcmo fx5 netcom com sender nntp acsu buffalo edu organization ub lines nntp posting host autarch acsu buffalo edu in article strnlghtc5wcmo fx5 netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes in article c5uvn4 mf7 austin ibm com arussell austin ibm com ag russell writes at the company worked for previously received file that was des encryped and the person that had sent it went on vaction rather than wait two weeks set up straight frontal attack with one key at time it only took two days to crack the file taking this at face value though it seems quite dissonant with much else that has been published here about brute force des cracking unless russell was lucky with respect to the key be very interested in whether the program russell used is available in whether he used cleartext recognition algorithm in the program or whether he had to examine each decryption by hand in whether he used known plaintext attack this has to be dictionary attack no other attack makes sense this means that whoever encrypted the file just typed some password which was single dictionary word and then russell tried all the words in the dictionary this isn too implausible especially if he was smart and clipped the first plaintext block off the ciphertext if the first block doesn decrypt then obviously the others won either assuming one attempt second it takes seven hours to try all the words in usr dict words not real tough if you want des to be secure you have to use random keys you can just type your wife name and think aha they ll never guess that one daniel boyd boyd cs buffalo edu welcome to the first church of appliantology the white zone is for loading and unloading only xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt privacy clipper newsgroups sci crypt alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu swrinde emory news feed peachnet edu umn edu csus edu netcom com tcmay from tcmay netcom com timothy may subject re the escrow database message id tcmayc5wf2b e4l netcom com organization netcom on line communication services guest newsreader tin pl5 references strnlghtc5wdvm hqm netcom com date thu apr gmt lines david sternlight strnlght netcom com wrote in article apr22 news eng convex com gardner convex com steve gardner writes cascades elided to preserve our sanity that wasn my point my point is that your implied position about the waco massacre is an assertion cum political position according to cnn poll what you call the big brother chip is right now proposal under discussion and it is not yet clear that strong crypto is going to be banned just to set the record straight steve gardner was not the author of the bit you quoted was steve just took issue with david characterization of my words as pernicious nonsense won further comment on my own views folks either support em or they don and the lines in question were neither central to the points was making in my original post nor to the important debate here in sci crypt and elsewhere tim may who continues to hold the same views but doesn feel like debating politics timothy may crypto anarchy encryption digital money tcmay netcom com anonymous networks digital pseudonyms zero knowledge reputations information markets aptos ca black markets collapse of governments higher power public key pgp and mailsafe available xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy clipper newsgroups sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy clipper alt fan david sternlight path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net gatech usenet ufl edu usenet cis ufl edu caen umeecs quip eecs umich edu dmuntz from dmuntz quip eecs umich edu dan muntz subject re new encryption message id apr22 zip eecs umich edu sender news zip eecs umich edu mr news organization university of michigan eecs dept ann arbor references r4e9d pdo sol tis com apr21 wam umd edu strnlghtc5wc3z erw netcom com date thu apr gmt lines in article strnlghtc5wc3z erw netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes psionic wam umd edu whose parenthesized name is either an unfortunate coincidence or casts serious doubt on his bona fides posts message in which he seems willing to take the word of private firm about which he knows little that their new encryption algorithm is secure and contains no trapdoors while seemingly distrusting that of the government about clipper will someone please post the david sternlight faq to alt privacy clipper before someone unfamiliar with him takes him seriously and starts yet another flame fest dan xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp org eff talk alt privacy clipper sci crypt newsgroups comp org eff talk alt privacy clipper sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech purdue yuma ns111310 from ns111310 lance colostate edu nathaniel sammons subject re have seen the lobby and it is us message id apr22 yuma acns colostate edu sender news yuma acns colostate edu news account date thu apr gmt references gfpj4tb0bwwb0dww02 transarc com apr21 eff org apr22 uc msc edu nntp posting host casco lance colostate edu organization colorado state engineering college lines think that most of us can afford stamp and an envelope and the cost of printing out letter if some kind soul out there would write letter and upload it to the net everyone could capture it print it out and snail mail it out to their local congressional critter btw working on one nate hate quotations this message brought you by tell me what you know nate sammons and the number ralph waldo emerson ns111310 longs lance colostate edu xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp org eff talk alt privacy clipper sci crypt newsgroups comp org eff talk alt privacy clipper sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech purdue yuma ns111310 from ns111310 lance colostate edu nathaniel sammons subject could someone mail me the text from the white house clipper announcement message id apr22 yuma acns colostate edu sender news yuma acns colostate edu news account date thu apr gmt references apr21 eff org apr22 uc msc edu apr22 yuma acns colostate edu nntp posting host casco lance colostate edu organization colorado state engineering college lines thanks bunch nate hate quotations this message brought you by tell me what you know nate sammons and the number ralph waldo emerson ns111310 longs lance colostate edu newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc sdd hp com decwrl apple mumbo apple com wingosmac apple com user from wingo apple com tony wingo subject re new encryption sender news mumbo apple com the news system message id wingo wingosmac apple com date thu apr gmt references apr20 ulysses att com apr21 lokkur dexter mi us r4e9d pdo sol tis com apr21 wam umd edu apr22 magic mcc com organization apple computer followup to sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy clipper lines in article apr22 magic mcc com croley magic mcc com david croley wrote it would seem that the one fact that the government has overlooked in this whole fiasco is the economic standpoint as others have mentioned the most difficulty the clipper chip faces is an economic one let face it the average consumer doesn care or know that the clipper is bad idea if there is perceived need for cellular encryption then the companies will provide one most likely standard will emerge but if the clipper is too expensive and chip is way too much then they will develope their own or buy cheaper one this is an interesting point as very coarse rule of thumb you can figure that the final price of product is to times the cost of goods the exact multiplier depends largely on economies of scale products that sell tens of millions of units year will be at the low end those that sell thousands of units year will be at the high end suspect cellular phones are in the middle this implies that adding chip would increase the cost of the phone by approx or about don think you ll get lot of consumer support for this tony usual disclaimer xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt comp org eff talk path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net transfer stratus com ellisun sw stratus com cme from cme ellisun sw stratus com carl ellison newsgroups sci crypt comp org eff talk subject re clipper considered harmful date apr gmt organization stratus computer software engineering lines distribution inet message id r6s1f c4d transfer stratus com references optilink com bontchev fbihh nntp posting host ellisun sw stratus com in article bontchev fbihh bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de writes no because the feds will still be able to decrypt the conversations true they ll blame the wrong guys but nevertheless one cannot say something like the drugs arrive tommorrow on the ship terminus when the feds are listening even if they cannot identify who the speaker is it not question just of who is holding the phone it question of what circuit to wiretap in the first place if two drug dealers are both using stolen cellular phones the fbi doesn know which lines to tap unless of course they re tapping all phones maybe all cellular phones if they haven tapped the connection ie at least one end of the connection then they don know what key to request disclaimer all opinions expressed are my own of course carl ellison cme sw stratus com stratus computer inc m3 bkw tel fairbanks boulevard marlborough ma fax xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt comp lang newsgroups sci crypt comp lang path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net darwin sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu csus edu netcom com grady from grady netcom com ef221 subject re freely distributable public key cryptography code where message id gradyc5wgrz cvc netcom com organization capriccioso newsreader tin version pl6 references c5wd1p hl5 xetron com date thu apr gmt lines victor iseli victori xetron com wrote numerical recipes in fortran pascal has nice section on encryption and decryption based on the des algorithm there is also source code provided think some versions of this book are distributed with the source code on disk the source code can also be ordered from the publisher victor iseli victori xetron com yes benchmarked the des implementation in the recipes in book it is about orders of magnitude slower than the outerbridge karn gillogly et al implementation it may be instructional but it isn very fast grady netcom com ef221 e2 ad d3 d1 c6 f3 fc ac f7 xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu linac att att ulysses ulysses smb from smb research att com steven bellovin subject re once tapped your code is no good any more message id apr22 ulysses att com date thu apr gmt references rwing uucp rdippold qualcom apr21 ucsu colorado edu apr22 cs aukuni ac nz c5vmf3 mbt murdoch acc virginia edu organization at bell laboratories lines in article c5vmf3 mbt murdoch acc virginia edu lfoard hopper virginia edu lawrence foard writes in article apr22 cs aukuni ac nz pgut1 cs aukuni ac nz peter gutmann writes article deleted just doing quick reality check here is this for real or did someone invent it to provoke reaction from people it sounds more like the sort of thing you have heard suitably rephrased from the leader of certain german political party in the it sounds like joke but then the war on drugs has always been joke seeking permission to repost the actual note but someone on another mailing list checked the archives on nexis upi and all major newspapers and found no mention of that article newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu hermes chpc utexas edu news utdallas edu convex gardner from gardner convex com steve gardner subject re clipper will corrupt cops was wh proposal from police point of view sender usenet news eng convex com news access account message id apr22 news eng convex com date thu apr gmt references bontchev fbihh apr21 news clarkson edu nntp posting host imagine convex com organization engineering convex computer corp richardson tx usa disclaimer this message was written by user at convex computer corp the opinions expressed are those of the user and not necessarily those of convex lines in article apr21 news clarkson edu tuinstra signal ece clarkson edu soe writes clipper will make criminals out of cops do we want to do this to our police forces the war on some drugs has already turned alot of police into criminals this is yet another nail in the constitution coffin smg xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt privacy clipper newsgroups sci crypt alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net agate ames sgi wdl1 phobos koontzd from koontzd phobos lrmsc loral com david koontz subject re new encryption message id apr22 wdl loral com sender news wdl loral com organization loral rolm mil spec computers references r4e9d pdo sol tis com apr21 wam umd edu strnlghtc5wc3z erw netcom com date thu apr gmt lines from denning guvax acc georgetown edu the clipper chip technical summary dorothy denning revised april the chips are programmed by mykotronx inc which calls them the myk the silicon is supplied by vlsi technology inc all clipper chips are programmed inside scif secure compartmented information facility which is essentially vault the scif contains laptop computer and equipment to program the chips about chips are programmed during single session the scif is located at mykotronx acknowledgment and distribution notice this article is based on information provided by nsa nist fbi and mykotronx permission to distribute this document is granted so who is mykotronx inc it would be nice to know that they were not front company used by an intelligence or other agency of the government trusting the fox to guard the chickens and all that seems suspicious when the rest of the sources are foxes while we are at it the chip design should be examined and verified against silicon to insure no trap doors or hidden protocols exist in silicon regardless of the security level of the encryption algorithm it would be shame if some three letter agency had the ability to interrogate my chip when all know is that someone rang and when attempted to go off hook the line went dead could be even worse if the chip were intended to connect directly to modem the design examination should be done to the gate level does anyone have good idea how to tell if there is piggyback design on silicon the model would be extra logic sharing pins with the advertised function tip offs would be circuitry that would ignore incoming data if formats or sequence is not right can think of only two ways an output pin could be used and its possible that might be noticed but could be edited from the netlist think the silicon itself needs to be investigated imagine design done in two layer metalization yet finding third layer under the microscope the government is asking for lot of blind trust the encryption algorithm operating protocols the agency having physical control of the devices the silicon implementation feel like keeping one hand on my wallet xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp org eff talk alt privacy clipper sci crypt newsgroups comp org eff talk alt privacy clipper sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu malgudi oar net news ans net nynexst com rsilvers from rsilvers nynexst com robert silvers subject re have seen the lobby and it is us message id apr22 nynexst com sender news nynexst com for news purposes organization nynex science and technology references apr21 eff org apr22 uc msc edu apr22 yuma acns colostate edu date thu apr gmt lines in article apr22 yuma acns colostate edu ns111310 lance colostate edu nathaniel sammons writes think that most of us can afford stamp and an envelope and the cost of printing out letter if some kind soul out there would write letter and upload it to the net everyone could capture it print it out and snail mail it out to their local congressional critter btw working on one send something to rush linbaugh about clinton taking away our right to privacy and how if the govt standard takes off only people with lots of money drug dealers will be able to justify des stuff he will slam clinton for this on the air rob newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net agate ames kronos arc nasa gov hanson from hanson kronos arc nasa gov robin hanson subject estimating wiretap costs benefits message id apr22 kronos arc nasa gov sender usenet kronos arc nasa gov will edgington wedgingt ptolemy arc nasa gov nntp posting host jabberwock arc nasa gov organization nasa arc information sciences division date thu apr gmt lines would wiretap chip be cost effective by robin hanson draft april summary compared to an average monthly phone bill of sixty dollars wiretaps are only worth two cents month to police so the proposed wiretap chip must raise phone costs by less than one part in three thousand to be cost effective background until now phones have happened to allow the existence of wiretaps detectors which could pick up conversations on phone line and over time law enforcement agencies have come to rely on this capability to aid in criminal investigations however powerful new encryption technologies threaten this status quo by making possible truly private communication small chip in each phone could soon make it literally impossible to overhear conversation without physical microphones at either end in order to preserve the ability of law enforcement agencies to tap phone conversations the government announced on april that it had developed and begun manufacturing special wiretap chip to be placed in future phones instead of the total privacy chips which have been under private development the same day at announced it would use these chips in all its secure telephone products each chip would be created under government supervision when it would be given fixed indentifier and encryption key periodically during each conversation the chip would broadcast its identifier and other info in special law enforcement block law enforcement officers with court order could then obtain the key corresponding to the indentifier from special trust agencies and could thereby listen in on any future or previously recorded conversations on that phone to date most concerns voiced about this plan have been about its security the government won disclose the encryption algorithm and many suspect the government will not limit its access in the way it has claimed the track record of previous governments does not inspire confidence on this point however this paper will neglect these concerns and ask instead whether this new wiretap chip is cost effective tool for police investigation that is which is cheaper way for society to investigate crime force phone communications to support wiretaps or give police agencies more money to investigate crimes in other ways or to put it another way would police agencies be willing to pay for each wiretap if they had to pay their share of the full social cost of forcing phones to support wiretaps to start to answer this question we might compare the current benefits wiretaps provide to law enforcement agencies with projected costs of implementing the new wiretap chip plan and since current benefits are easier to estimate we begin there wiretap benefits is the latest year for which wiretap statistics are available in that year wiretap installations were requested and no requests were denied this figure does not include wiretaps obtained with the consent of party to the conversation arrests resulted from wiretaps started the same year arrests came from wiretaps in previous years and of arrests led to convictions of the wiretaps were for phones vs pagers email etc were regarding drug offenses and were requested by federal authorities each wiretap installation heard an average of calls of them incriminating among people and cost an average of extrapolating from the installations reporting costs mostly for labor thus total of about million was spent on wiretaps to obtain about arrests at per arrest thus these arrests are at least four times more expensive than the per arrest figure one gets by dividing the billion spent by all police nationally by the total million non traffic arrests thus the million per year spent on phone taps is only one thousanth of the total police expenditures and if we divide this by the million phone access lines in the country we get about cents spent per year per phone line or about two cents month in general we deter given class of criminals through combination of perceived probability of being caught and convicted and some expected punishment level if convicted so the social value of having wiretaps is no more than the amount that we would have to pay to get the same criminal deterrence through other means if unable to wiretap particular suspect phone police might instead use hidden microphones or investigate that suspect in other ways or police might focus on suspects more easily investigated without wiretaps or we might raise the fine or prison time for certain types of crime if we generously assume that these substitutes for wiretaps would be on average twice as expensive as wiretaps then the annual social benefit of phone wiretaps is about equal to the current spending level of two cents month per phone line wiretap costs let us for the moment optimistically assume that the us government encryption scheme is as secure as whatever private enterprise would have offered instead protecting our conversations from the spying ears of neighbors corporations and governments both foreign and domestic even so the need to support wiretaps would add many additional costs to build and maintain our communication system extra law enforcement blocks would be added to phone transmissions increasing traffic by some unknown percentage special process must be used to add encryption keys to chips while securely distributing these keys to special agencies which must be funded and monitored the chips themselves are designed by military contractor whose design is to remain secret and are manufactured through special process so that the chip becomes nearly impossible to take apart chips are now offered at the relatively high price of peice in lots of private encryption systems not supporting wiretaps would require none of these extra costs perhaps most important government degree would at least partially replace private marketplace evolution of standards for how voice is to be represented encrypted and exchanged in our future phones it is widely believed that governments are less efficient than private enterprise in procuring products and standards though they may perhaps perform useful brokering role when we choose between competing private standards how much less efficient is matter of debate some say they pay twice as much while others might say only more currently total of billion is spent as operating expenses of phone companies which comes out to about per month per access line if we compare this to the wiretap value of two cents per month we see that if wiretaps raise average operating costs by even as much as one part in then wiretaps are not cost effective and this doesn even include extra costs phone owners pay because their encryption chips are more expensive of course most phones wouldn have encryption chips for while but the wiretap benefit per phone is still the same so this argument still applies conclusion given this dramatic difference between the total cost of running the phone system and the value of wiretaps we can justify only the slightest modification of the phone system to accommodate wiretaps when the only modification required was to allow investigators in to attach clips to phone wires wiretap support may have been reasonable but when we consider substantial modification the burden of proof is clearly on those proposing such modification to show that the costs would really be less than the benefits if consensus cannot be obtain on this cost benefit estimate compromise might be to tax phones which do not support wiretaps at rate of say five cents per month tax payable to police agencies nationwide to compensate them for their loss of wiretap abilities the invisible weapon oxford press isbn report on applications for orders authorizing or approving the interception of wire oral or electronic communications administrative office of courts washington dc statistical abstracts dorothy denning the clipper chip technical summary distributed to sci crypt newsgroup april robin hanson hanson ptolemy arc nasa gov ms nasa ames research center moffett field ca male terrace fremont ca newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com network ucsd edu qualcom qualcomm com qualcom rdippold from rdippold qualcomm com ron asbestos dippold subject re do we need the clipper for cheap security message id rdippold qualcom originator rdippold qualcom qualcomm com sender news qualcomm com nntp posting host qualcom qualcomm com organization qualcomm inc san diego ca references aa10506 pizzabox demon co uk apr21 shearson com c5uphy gh7 dcs ed ac uk date thu apr gmt lines pdc dcs ed ac uk paul crowley writes quoting pmetzger snark shearson com perry metzger in article apr21 shearson com whats the difference between bis modem and bis modem how fast do the fastest modems go how far can voice be compressed ve seen various assertions about this but anyone with the straightforward bits per second figures will be my friend forever how about half friend the motorola codex preliminary fast modem which you can by right now does kbps raw over standard phone lines kbps is what is usually claimed for the final fast but you can go out and buy that right now the standard isn done yet again voice can be compressed quite well down to or bps depending on how good you want it to be but that requires dsp or special asic to do in real time think am think am the little engine that philosophized xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy clipper newsgroups sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy clipper alt fan david sternlight path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet world martin from martin world std com martin hannigan subject re new encryption message id c5wjca bm world std com followup to alt fan david sternlight keywords sternlight afds crypt archive cross post david bart organization twisted pair consulting boston ma references apr21 wam umd edu strnlghtc5wc3z erw netcom com apr22 zip eecs umich edu date thu apr gmt lines in article apr22 zip eecs umich edu dmuntz quip eecs umich edu dan muntz writes in article strnlghtc5wc3z erw netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes psionic wam umd edu whose parenthesized name is either an unfortunate coincidence or casts serious doubt on his bona fides posts message in which he seems willing to take the word of private firm about which he knows little that their new encryption algorithm is secure and contains no trapdoors while seemingly distrusting that of the government about clipper will someone please post the david sternlight faq to alt privacy clipper before someone unfamiliar with him takes him seriously and starts yet another flame fest dan hello am the david sternlight keeper of the faq unfortuantely cannot find it at the present time from the original faq question does anyone take david sternlight serious fact no one takes david sternlight serious they review his opinions and in most cases immediately discard them or jerk them over to alt fan david sternlight which actually should be alt flame david sternlight photograph of david sternlight for the curious david sternlight net police proud dick of the internet david police question why does david continue to relate mis statements regarding encryption and other topics fact david sternlight has chemical imbalance of the right side of his brain martin hannigan twisted pair consulting mac ibm pc mainframe unix xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org ieee newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com gatech pirates news feed peachnet edu umn edu csus edu netcom com strnlght from strnlght netcom com david sternlight subject re once tapped your code is no good any more message id strnlghtc5who2 fk netcom com organization dsi uscrpac references c5so84 hxv demon co uk visicom com rubin dsg4 dse beckman com distribution na date thu apr gmt lines in article rubin dsg4 dse beckman com rubin dsg4 dse beckman com arthur rubin writes wouldn think so asking people to trust secret algorithm seems unsound to me maybe so but it quite common there are millions of macintosh users who have no idea what in apple patented roms many have modems connected how do you know all your business secrets aren being stolen answer because you trust apple because if any such attempt however sophicsticated came out it would destroy apple credibility forever in the clipper case representative body of experts is going to be allowed to audit it and we ll have assurances maybe even from the president that other than the escrowed keys there are no back doors while some may not have confidence in that am not among them it lot more assurance than we get for many things we routinely trust in everyday life david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net gatech pirates news feed peachnet edu umn edu lynx unm edu dns1 nmsu edu opus ted from ted nmsu edu ted dunning newsgroups sci crypt subject re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip date apr organization computing research lab lines message id ted apr22142924 lole nmsu edu references apr20 ulysses att com apr21 lokkur dexter mi us c5uvn4 mf7 austin ibm com strnlghtc5wcmo fx5 netcom com nntp posting host lole nmsu edu in reply to strnlght netcom com message of thu apr gmt in article strnlghtc5wcmo fx5 netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes at the company worked for previously received file that was des encryped and the person that had sent it went on vaction rather than wait two weeks set up straight frontal attack with one key at time it only took two days to crack the file no don have any faith in des taking this at face value though it seems quite dissonant with much else that has been published here about brute force des cracking unless russell was lucky with respect to the key be very interested in whether the program russell used is available key search is very practical in many real situations since people use such stupid keys on the average password crackers know this well depending on his answer this could be an appalling development calling into question both des and rsa des not really in fact public key based communication systems very often pick keys automatically which are much better than passwords or pass phrases if any bright programmer with little idle machine time can crack single des message in couple of days assuming no tricks that are message specific if person picked the password or pass phrase then the key search is pretty straightforward in running english text the average content of single word is about bits in pass phrases this may increase to bits or so searching bit spaces is semi practical even in software and searching bit spaces isn outrageous to imagine with hardware assists of moderate size xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp org eff talk alt privacy clipper sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu husc news harvard edu zariski kubo newsgroups comp org eff talk alt privacy clipper sci crypt subject re organized lobbying for cryptography message id apr22 husc3 harvard edu from kubo zariski harvard edu tal kubo date apr edt references r2gb5 h0r transfer stratus com r3jgbinn35i eli cs yale edu c5uprt gmq dcs ed ac uk distribution inet organization dept of math harvard univ nntp posting host zariski harvard edu lines in article c5uprt gmq dcs ed ac uk pdc dcs ed ac uk paul crowley writes perhaps these encryption only types would defend the digitized porn if it was posted encrypted these issues are not as seperable as you maintain in fact since effective encryption makes censorship impossible they are almost the same issue and they certainly fall into the brief of the eff it also falls within the purview of the aclu but that doesn mean the aclu or the eff would be the most effective instrument to win the hearts and minds in favor of access to cryptography it precisely slogans like cryptography makes censorship impossible which stand to torpedo any attempt to generate broad consensus in favor of encryption it is not true and in the context of public debate it would be dangerous red herring advocates of strong crypto had better prepare themselves to answer such charges in pragmatic terms that laypeople and politicians can sympathize with the usual mumblings about constitutional amendments are not enough tal kubo math harvard edu newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net darwin sura net bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu csus edu netcom com strnlght from strnlght netcom com david sternlight subject re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only message id strnlghtc5wjag netcom com organization dsi uscrpac references apr20 shearson com r47l1inn8gq senator bedfellow mit edu apr22 yuma acns colostate edu date thu apr gmt lines doug holland claims tom clancy has provided the recipe for nuclear bombs clancy himself says he has omitted certain crucial steps further how do we know clancy knows rather than repeating what he read or been told in the unclassified domain david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech emory darwin sura net bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu csus edu netcom com strnlght from strnlght netcom com david sternlight subject re political point of attack clipper infrastructure message id strnlghtc5wjn3 t1 netcom com organization dsi uscrpac references gumby apr20073629 tweedledumb cygnus com apr22 news clarkson edu date thu apr gmt lines in article apr22 news clarkson edu tuinstra signal ece clarkson edu soe writes from these figures estimate the number of clipper tap requests the fbi is expecting publish this figure compare it on per capita basis with the amount of tapping now known or suspected the attorney general publishes the number of court ordered taps each year it isn enough around thousand for the average non crook non spy to worry about in fact considering any reasonable guess about the number of big time crooks and spies around it may not be enough even for most crooks and spies to worry about there no reason to believe that it will go up with clipper since the number of taps now includes many targets too stupid to use encryption based on the playbacks we ve heard in court cases david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt privacy clipper newsgroups sci crypt alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu hermes chpc utexas edu news utdallas edu convex gardner from gardner convex com steve gardner subject re would clipper make good cover for other encryption method sender usenet news eng convex com news access account message id apr22 news eng convex com date thu apr gmt references apr20 eff org strnlghtc5t3nh is1 netcom com nntp posting host imagine convex com organization engineering convex computer corp richardson tx usa disclaimer this message was written by user at convex computer corp the opinions expressed are those of the user and not necessarily those of convex lines in article strnlghtc5t3nh is1 netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes in article apr20 eff org kadie eff org carl kadie writes so don just think of replacements for clipper also think of front ends this only makes sense if the government prohibits alternative non escrowed encryption schemes otherwise why not just use the front end without clipper because everyone but you expects that making alternative methods of encryption illegal is the next step otherwise the cripple chip is utterly worthless it should be obvious that the cripple chip is aimed at spying on ordinary citizens or that other forms of encryption will soon be illegal smg path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse flop engr orst edu gaia ucs orst edu umn edu csus edu netcom com strnlght from strnlght netcom com david sternlight newsgroups sci crypt subject re can des code be shipped to canada message id strnlghtc5wkrt ja netcom com date apr gmt article netcom strnlghtc5wkrt ja references apr22 fripp ri cadre com organization dsi uscrpac lines in article apr22 fripp ri cadre com rj ri cadre com writes someone in canada asked me to send him some public domain des file encryption code have is it legal for me to send it believe it is illegal to send any cryptographic code out of the country without an export license others will correct me if this is inaccurate dunno if you get one for the particular code you have the only way to find out is to apply for license note that you need to distinguish between what is legal to send to canada if you have such license and what is legal to send if you don david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu csus edu netcom com strnlght from strnlght netcom com david sternlight subject wiretapping reality today message id strnlghtc5wkh0 netcom com organization dsi uscrpac references gumby apr20073629 tweedledumb cygnus com apr22 news clarkson edu strnlghtc5wjn3 t1 netcom com date thu apr gmt lines some of the messages here seem to reflect the view that the government is listening in on everything and one will have to hide one clipper messages somehow if non escrowed crypto goes away little perspective might be in order the number of court ordered wire taps is pretty low law enforcement has to present pretty good evidence to get even that limited number of authorizations thus the overwhelming majority of conversations are neither tapped nor recorded by the government and for that to happen they have to have pretty good reason with evidence use this sparingly on highest priority pretty good reasons though the system may be imperfect it is long way from the horror stories some here seem to believe or anticipate david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu umn edu csus edu netcom com strnlght from strnlght netcom com david sternlight subject re fear uncertainty doubt message id strnlghtc5wklq as netcom com organization dsi uscrpac references r4vo3 koj access digex net date thu apr gmt lines in article r4vo3 koj access digex net steve access digex com steve brinich writes suspect that the decisive element in the political battle will be the fud fear uncertainty doubt factor if the people who would be end users of the cripple chip hear of the whole debate only vaguely the government says it solid other people in the field say it swiss cheese the balance of doubt could shift against the feds any attempt to limit other forms of encryption could then be presented as the government covering its own butt by protecting its poor product from superior competition comments since you asked the above is bit inaccurate more accurate is that the government says its solid other people in the field who might be able to find out haven yet done their review of the chip design and there been lot of wild speculation and guesswork from those with little information that it might be swiss cheese david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp org eff talk alt privacy clipper sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse emory news feed peachnet edu umn edu csus edu netcom com strnlght from strnlght netcom com david sternlight newsgroups comp org eff talk alt privacy clipper sci crypt subject re have seen the lobby and it is us message id strnlghtc5wl17 wb netcom com date apr gmt article netcom strnlghtc5wl17 wb references apr21 eff org apr22 uc msc edu apr22 yuma acns colostate edu organization dsi uscrpac lines hin article apr22 yuma acns colostate edu ns111310 lance colostate edu nathaniel sammons writes think that most of us can afford stamp and an envelope and the cost of printing out letter if some kind soul out there would write letter and upload it to the net everyone could capture it print it out and snail mail it out to their local congressional critter btw working on one far more effective than mass mailing of standard letter this is taken usually to represent one pressure group is set of individual letters perhaps nathaniel sammons or someone else would like to prepare set of talking points from which individuals could compose their own letters david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc sdd hp com nigel msen com caen destroyer vela acs oakland edu cs uiuc edu kadie from kadie cs uiuc edu carl kadie subject re political point of attack clipper infrastructure message id c5wmu9 mqj cs uiuc edu organization university of illinois dept of comp sci urbana il references gumby apr20073629 tweedledumb cygnus com apr22 news clarkson edu strnlghtc5wjn3 t1 netcom com date thu apr gmt lines strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes the attorney general publishes the number of court ordered taps each year believe you are mistaken don believe the ag publishes the number of state wiretaps carl carl kadie do not represent any organization this is just me kadie cs uiuc edu xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu andrew cmu edu postman from lyle seaman transarc com newsgroups alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee sci crypt subject re overreacting was re once tapped your code is no good any more date thu apr organization carnegie mellon pittsburgh pa lines distribution na message id fplpdh0bwwbedwenj transarc com references apr22 rick dgbt doc ca nntp posting host po3 andrew cmu edu in reply to apr22 rick dgbt doc ca jhan debra dgbt doc ca jerry han writes somebody asked me what was wrong about overreacting in cases such as this that was probably me meant only that nobody has overreacted yet it seemed to me that jerry was suggesting that people are currently overreacting and vehemently disagree see lot of talk but not much action see now that misunderstood jerry position the reason is very simple how many people do you want to die in riot in new civil war everybody is jumping up and down and screaming about it and worried that people are going to reach for their hammers and rifles before their pens and paper not this bunch they ll just bitch on the net for while and then go back to lurking can people work within the system before trying to break it examine your history books and find out how many armed revolutions led to democratic or democratic style governments think you ll only find one in over five thousand years of written history actually it not quite that bad but it close look we collectively have the power to throw the bums out but we don use it we clearly don need to go burning things down but we clearly do need to throw at least some of the bums out unfortunately the bums have learned to target only small groups of people at single time so the masses won react and throw them out eventually the masses will react unless the bums cease their relentless encroachment on liberty and despoilment of the economy the sooner it happens the less the damages will be don want to live in war zone either want to see the bums thrown out before they do some real damage lyle transarc grant street the gulf tower pittsburgh path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net gatech mephisto gatech edu calkin from calkin math34 gatech neil calkin newsgroups sci crypt subject re political point of attack clipper infrastructure message id calkin apr22185327 math34 gatech date apr gmt article math34 calkin apr22185327 references gumby apr20073629 tweedledumb cygnus com apr22 news clarkson edu strnlghtc5wjn3 t1 netcom com c5wmu9 mqj cs uiuc edu organization home math calkin organization lines nntp posting host math34 gatech edu in reply to kadie cs uiuc edu message of thu apr gmt in article c5wmu9 mqj cs uiuc edu kadie cs uiuc edu carl kadie writes strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes the attorney general publishes the number of court ordered taps each year believe you are mistaken don believe the ag publishes the number of state wiretaps carl carl kadie do not represent any organization this is just me kadie cs uiuc edu hmmm now if we could have keys kept in escrow with one of the groups keeping key being the government then the states would need federal permission to run wiretap interesting possibility neil xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt comp org eff talk path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu cs utexas edu uunet lehman com snark pmetzger from pmetzger snark shearson com perry metzger newsgroups sci crypt comp org eff talk subject re clipper considered harmful message id apr22 lehman com date apr gmt article lehman apr22 references optilink com sender news lehman com news organization partnership for an america free drug lines brad optilink com brad yearwood writes if clipper comes to cellular phones along with legal proscriptions against using other cipher systems on these phones new and potentially dangerous class of crime is created criminals who very badly want inscrutable tactical communications specifically the terrorists and drug dealers who proponents of key escrow cite as threats will be highly motivated to steal the cipher phone of legitimate user and to kill this person or hold them hostage so discovery of compromise of the device will be delayed you obviously haven read the information about the system the chips put out serial number infomation into the cypher stream to allow themselves to be identified the system does not rely on registering people as owning particular phone units am against the proposal but lets be accurate in our objections perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer le monde va de lui meme xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt security pgp alt privacy comp org eff talk sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com sgiblab nec gw netkeeper vivaldi seas smu edu mic montagar davidc from davidc montagar com david cathey newsgroups alt security pgp alt privacy comp org eff talk sci crypt subject re the secret source of that announcement message id apr22 montagar com date apr cdt references apr21 leland stanford edu gradyc5uamw bng netcom com organization montagar software concepts plano tx lines in article gradyc5uamw bng netcom com grady netcom com ef221 writes maybe we should start newsgroup for the distribution of encrypted posts intended of members of affinity groups with shared private key for example at the coming up cypherpunks meeting private key corresponding to that particular meeting could be passed out by moderator minutes followup comments to other participants and so on could be posted to the alt encrypted group for the use of the people who attended communiques intended by the group for non attendees could of course just be signed using the private key but otherwises not encrypted like it pgp would be useful guess although don have working version for vms yet grady netcom com ef221 e2 ad d3 d1 c6 f3 fc ac f7 david cathey inet davidc montagar com montagar software concepts uucp montagar davidc box plano tx fone xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt comp lang path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com decwrl apple apple mumbo apple com lefty apple com user from lefty apple com lefty newsgroups sci crypt comp lang subject re freely distributable public key cryptography code where message id lefty lefty apple com date apr gmt references c5wd1p hl5 xetron com gradyc5wgrz cvc netcom com sender news mumbo apple com the news system organization our lady of heavy artillery lines in article gradyc5wgrz cvc netcom com grady netcom com ef221 wrote victor iseli victori xetron com wrote numerical recipes in fortran pascal has nice section on encryption and decryption based on the des algorithm there is also source code provided think some versions of this book are distributed with the source code on disk the source code can also be ordered from the publisher victor iseli victori xetron com yes benchmarked the des implementation in the recipes in book it is about orders of magnitude slower than the outerbridge karn gillogly et al implementation it may be instructional but it isn very fast it has also apparently been excised from the second edition lefty lefty apple com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse uwm edu cs utexas edu uunet lehman com snark pmetzger from pmetzger snark shearson com perry metzger newsgroups sci crypt subject celp vocoders message id apr22 lehman com date apr gmt article lehman apr22 references aa05465 pizzabox demon co uk sender news lehman com news organization partnership for an america free drug lines gtoal gtoal com graham toal writes absolutely just meant that no secure dedicated crypto device has ever been given approval guerrilla underground devices should be well possible with today high speed modems not that can think of many v32bis modems that are approved either mind you just the overpriced couriers can someone tell me if hardware compression is or is not needed to run digital speech down think it is ve heard it not lets say bit samples would raw data at the corresponding sampling rate be usable if not how fancy does the compression need to be it is said that celp vocoders can run on the highest speed with some room to spare they turn kbit bit samples samples sec into baud however dsp is hairy and have yet to see actual proof of this in the form of an implementation have heard fairly reliable rumors to the effect that famous internetworking guru has celp implementation that runs on sparcstation with some room to spare but have not succeeded thus far in getting my hands on copy the guru in question has reputation for not releasing code without having beaten on it for very very long time first dsp experts are heavily encouraged to try their own hand at this problem perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer le monde va de lui meme xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt privacy clipper sci crypt newsgroups alt privacy clipper sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu swrinde sgiblab sgigate sgi wdl1 phobos koontzd from koontzd phobos lrmsc loral com david koontz subject is key escrow enough message id apr22 wdl loral com sender news wdl loral com organization loral rolm computer systems references apr22 uc msc edu apr22 yuma acns colostate edu strnlghtc5wl17 wb netcom com distribution world date thu apr gmt lines from denning guvax acc georgetown edu revised april the chips are programmed by mykotronx inc which calls them the myk the silicon is supplied by vlsi technology inc all clipper chips are programmed inside scif secure compartmented information facility which is essentially vault the scif contains laptop computer and equipment to program the chips about chips are programmed during single session the scif is located at mykotronx acknowledgment and distribution notice this article is based on information provided by nsa nist fbi and mykotronx permission to distribute this document is granted so who is mykotronx inc it would be nice to know that they are not front company used by an intelligence or other agency of the government while we are at it the chip design should be examined and verified against silicon to insure no trap doors or hidden protocols exist in silicon regardless of the security level of the encryption algorithm there is no proof that the chip won squeel and role over for someone with the proper knowledge to interrogate it via the communications link the design examination should be done to the gate level also how does one verify that what you are looking at is reflected in tapeout or masks the silicon should be examined as well the design in hand clean room publicly defined clipper chip can be merged with another design later or changed between completion and mask out there is little proof that what you are told is in the chip is all that is in the chip put the verified masks in escrow and use them for chip production use third escrow party for programming the chips the government is asking for lot of blind trust the encryption algorithm operating protocols the agency having physical control of the devices the silicon implementation if the government is so trustworthy why escrow anything newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester cornell batcomputer caen uunet lehman com snark pmetzger from pmetzger snark shearson com perry metzger subject re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only message id apr22 lehman com sender news lehman com news organization partnership for an america free drug references c5qy3m de3 agora rain com r1g82 rui news intercon com date thu apr gmt lines amanda intercon com amanda walker writes we do need an alternative to nsa bugged telephones but we re talking inexpensive telephones here including hand sized cellulars that need strong crypto real privacy so start company and build them this is still mostly capitalist economy qualcomm had spare cycles in the dsps for their new cdma digital cellular phones they wanted to put strong crypto into them since they had the capacity the government decided to discourage them really none of this stuff is especially hard all you need for true private phone is an isdn codec vocoder either chip or software an encryptor chip is fine but software is more than fast enough or bis modem module and maybe microcontroller to run the whole thing its easy to do its cheap and any normal company trying to put one out will likely get visit from the boys in the dark suits from washington just like qualcomm did suspect that companies like cylink are tolerated because their products are too expensive however no law yet stops one from building really private phones in spite of the hints the administration has made when discussing the new crime bill and in connection with the clipper skipjack big brother chip someone out there will build unit to do all this better yet prehaps someone will produce package that turns any box with sound card into secure phone perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer le monde va de lui meme xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt security pgp sci crypt newsgroups alt security pgp sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net agate news ucdavis edu csus edu netcom com grady from grady netcom com ef221 subject re transparent cyphertext message id gradyc5wqea qx netcom com organization capriccioso newsreader tin version pl6 references aej7d cmuvm bitnet date thu apr gmt lines aej7d cmuvm bitnet wrote in light of recent events it may soon become very good idea to include the ability to produce transparent or at least non obvious cyphertext in upcoming revisions this won help if the nsa fba axis requires all messages to undergo textual analysis and reduction to canonical form to eliminate concealed messages after reading several national computer security center documents convinced that they are already using this filter doubleplusgoodnot grady netcom com ef221 e2 ad d3 d1 c6 f3 fc ac f7 xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy clipper newsgroups sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu gatech howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu geraldo cc utexas edu portal austin ibm com awdprime austin ibm com arussell from arussell austin ibm com ag russell subject re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip originator arussell pal500 austin ibm com sender news austin ibm com news id message id c5wsa5 qdz austin ibm com date thu apr gmt references apr20 ulysses att com apr21 lokkur dexter mi us c5uvn4 mf7 austin ibm com strnlghtc5wcmo fx5 netcom com organization ibm austin lines in article strnlghtc5wcmo fx5 netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes in article c5uvn4 mf7 austin ibm com arussell austin ibm com ag russell writes at the company worked for previously received file that was des encryped and the person that had sent it went on vaction rather than wait two weeks set up straight frontal attack with one key at time it only took two days to crack the file no don have any faith in des taking this at face value though it seems quite dissonant with much else that has been published here about brute force des cracking unless russell was lucky with respect to the key be very interested in whether the program russell used is available in whether he used cleartext recognition algorithm in the program or whether he had to examine each decryption by hand in whether he used known plaintext attack given that certain archival methods have certain key cleartext in file used programatic dictionary attack used the des library provided with the system that was using what is to keep anyone from being lucky with key he probably should also tell us given his address what machine he used desktop workstation or super computer my previous employment has nothing to do with my current address other than the fact that the fastest machine in the office was an ibm risc system model with meg of memory not super computer depending on his answer this could be an appalling development calling into question both des and rsa des dunno about rsa idea really think this more of statement of the limitations placed on the key by the interface ascii char no padding and most programs don bother to clear off the archival front and backend id if any bright programmer with little idle machine time can crack single des message in couple of days assuming no tricks that are message specific then here my clipper key nsa give me the chip at once yes any moderatly bright programmer with little idle machine time can crack most of todays real world encryption sure that you or could select key and prepare the data inorder that the decryption will become worst case but that is not the real world and sure that is how any agency would start an attack on message as you pointed out there are some very good recognition algorithms availible just not familiar with them russell dept a06s oltp section of pals group vm id sc39093 at ausvm1 email arussell austin ibm com phone tieline these are my views on anyone else they would look silly free the berkeley xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu swrinde elroy jpl nasa gov ames pacbell com iggy gw vitalink com wetware spunky redbrick com psinntp psinntp bacon newshost rens from rens stimpys imsi com rens troost newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee subject re overreacting was re once tapped your code is no good any more message id rens apr22153654 stimpys imsi com date apr gmt references apr22 rick dgbt doc ca sender news bacon imsi com reply to rens imsi com rens troost followup to sci crypt distribution na organization investment management services inc lines in reply to jhan debra dgbt doc ca message of apr gmt in article apr22 rick dgbt doc ca jhan debra dgbt doc ca jerry han writes in this giant bally ho over this clipper chip noticed rather disturbing trend in some of the mail and posts ve tossing back and forth me too tendency on the part of some people to hide their head in the sand the reason is very simple how many people do you want to die in riot in new civil war how many people do you want jailed for their convictions for their insistence on real privacy why sit by quietly while the preconditions for real civil war are put in place by short sighted government everybody is jumping up and down and screaming about it and worried that people are going to reach for their hammers and rifles before their pens and paper the terminal is mightier than the pen can people work within the system before trying to break it examine your history books and find out how many armed revolutions led to democratic or democratic style governments think you ll only find one in over five thousand years of written history really guess you mean the revolution how about england india mexico france holland that not very good odds you are misinformed but this whole issue is off the topic somebody once said something like armed violence is meant only to be used in response to an armed attack it is not meant to be used in agression this is the difference between self defence and murder when the cops kick in your door for using pgp tell them that all we re doing here is exercising our so called rapidly narrowing right to free speech probably overreacting but what ve read scared me lot don want my children growing up in war zone perhaps you should talk to the government about that or are you disciple of david the cops are our friends sternlight the implied threat of the illegalization of private crypto the not so subtle subtext of the clipper announcement is what worries me don want my children growing up in police state rens disclaimer all opinions herein are mine and mine alone and do not necessarily represent those of any organization with which may be affiliated laurens troost unix systems at work rens imsi com investment management svcs inc at play rens century com east th street th floor phone new york new york fax ims is unlikely to share any of the above opinions xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet digex com digex com not for mail from steve access digex com steve brinich newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee subject re overreacting was re once tapped your code is no good any more date apr organization express access online communications greenbelt md usa lines distribution na message id r77ph access digex net references apr22 rick dgbt doc ca r6g1n rvb access digex net apr22 rick dgbt doc ca nntp posting host access digex net it is my intent to cut the government off at the knees with the pen and keyboard true the lawyer and the lawbook only go so far but agree that it is best to use those resources to the maximum extent before seriously contemplating anything more disruptive xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu uunet digex com digex com not for mail from steve access digex com steve brinich newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org ieee subject re once tapped your code is no good any more date apr organization express access online communications greenbelt md usa lines distribution na message id r78f2 access digex net references c5so84 hxv demon co uk visicom com rubin dsg4 dse beckman com strnlghtc5who2 fk netcom com nntp posting host access digex net maybe so but it quite common there are millions of macintosh users who have no idea what in apple patented roms many have modems connected how do you know all your business secrets aren being stolen answer because you trust apple because if any such attempt however sophicsticated came out it would destroy apple credibility forever the reason could theoretically trust apple though pc person myself is that apple has to worry about their customers deserting them if they screw up badly enough the government doesn have any such worry it can change the rules by force to get the outcome it wants this is the ultimate reason why private enterprise is usually more efficient than government agencies path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu rutgers uwvax spool cs wisc edu mjs from mjs behemoth genetics wisc edu mike schmelzer newsgroups sci crypt subject re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow message id mjs apr22194125 behemoth genetics wisc edu date apr gmt references rand org strnlghtc5lgfi jqa netcom com apr18 yuma acns colostate edu strnlghtc5pucl kp netcom com sender news cs wisc edu the news organization uw genetix lines in reply to strnlght netcom com message of mon apr gmt in article strnlghtc5pucl kp netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes in article apr18 yuma acns colostate edu holland cs colostate edu douglas craig holland writes let me ask you this would you trust richard nixon with your crypto keys wouldn take it you mean president nixon not private citizen nixon sure nothing doing would be of the slightest interest to president nixon mr sternlight your naivete and historical ignorance is appalling history lesson detailing deleted mike schmelzer mjs genetics wisc edu finger for pgp people didn riot the minute they saw that film they waited on justice which never came ice path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu uunet tis com mjr from mjr tis com marcus ranum newsgroups sci crypt subject re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only date apr gmt organization trusted information systems inc lines message id r7e5e rai sol tis com references c5qy3m de3 agora rain com r1g82 rui news intercon com apr22 lehman com nntp posting host sol tis com pmetzger snark shearson com perry metzger writes really none of this stuff is especially hard all you need for true private phone is an isdn codec vocoder either chip or software an encryptor chip is fine but software is more than fast enough or bis modem module and maybe microcontroller to run the whole thing its easy to do its cheap and any normal company trying to put one out will likely get visit from the boys in the dark suits from washington just like qualcomm did have the feds shut down the people making sound blaster what about apple and next apple next sun and others make systems that can handle cd quality audio in and out and can perform arbitrary transformation on it in the process of transmitting it across network or modem perhaps there market for portable vocoder not crypto device simply an rs232 voice converter make it capable of recording speech and playing it back simultaneously it has applications for multimedia computing for the handicapped internet talk radio irc etc etc etc it wouldn be cryptographic device at all but suppose someone could have it hooked to laptop with bis modem and some crypto software market the thing with an api for text to speech using simple phonemes and the ability to use speech samples and of course publish the interface to it so other folks could write any applications they wanted to talk to the thing mjr path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu ogicse usenet ee pdx edu pdxgate rigel tauren from tauren rigel cs pdx edu tauren mills newsgroups sci crypt subject thoughts and questions message id pdxgate uucp date apr gmt article pdxgate sender news pdxgate uucp lines just joined this group recently and really do not know much about cryptography but couple things came to mind while reading through the posts is the clipper chip going to be exported if not how will people communicate with other countries will they have to do that in un crypt mode will other encryption techniques be legal assuming the government cracks down on using others when going overseas but not within the states ve read about authentication systems that use an electronic security card that looks like calculator to create an encrypted pin based on the time date the host system has the algorithm built into it as well so that it can authenticate user is there some form of encryption technology that would create keys that are only valid at certain instant in time the systems would then allow window of time around this instant where the key would work realize that this technique would increase the amount of information needing to be stored because you would need entire algorithms rather than just keys but for smaller scale things it might work could some similar method be used to make the two bit keys that are issued to police fbi etc to tap phone only usable for one week for instance if further surveilance was needed they would have to go back to the escrow service to get another key this would make it useless for local police to database keys they have used assume this is not possible because the receiving phone would need to be able to decypher the message but any thoughts on the subject thanks tauren mills tauren mills tauren rigel cs pdx edu path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu andrew cmu edu jb7m from jon bennett jb7m andrew cmu edu newsgroups sci crypt subject re ideas on clipper date thu apr organization robotics institute carnegie mellon pittsburgh pa lines message id gfpo wu00wc70qoq4o andrew cmu edu references aa09097 mycroft rand org nntp posting host andrew cmu edu in reply to aa09097 mycroft rand org jim gillogly jim mycroft rand org writes in article fpizbg00wc70qokyw andrew cmu edu you write suppose knew how the algorithm worked and knew the for my chip but did not know then by cryptanalysis might be able to determine from if law enforcement field not knowing would might make this much harder they re betting that you can do this even if you know even if you know in fact which they re trying to keep secret if you can find by grinding down the chip presumably you can find as well but we can do this right now with des even knowing the encryption method without doing almost the whole bit search that is not true with chosen plaintext attacks des keys can be determined without the full search now suppose that know either legitimately or not if know either because am involved in the conversation or know for party in the conversation may now be able to determine for the other party again they re betting that you can find given they claim the encryption is strong trust us am not willing to take that bet if know can also defeat the law enforcement field since could make my own with different then the one am using knowing also allows traffic analysis to be performed so might not know what you are saying but could know who you are saying it too not sure there ll be way to shove arbitrary key and data through your chip but if so this part ok we re assuming is unknown you can obviously shove arbitrary data through your chip as for the key it is stated that the sesion key exchange is external to the chip so can pick my keys too now admit that someone trying to compute will not have lots of messages to work from but since we have no way of knowing that the key generation method does not deliberately generate weak keys or for that matter that the published method is in fact used perhaps the will be chosen from know weak keys for the system they assume that you won be able to find no matter how many messages you have if they could break they wouldn need the key escrow bing bing bing bing bing that exactly my point since we cant know that they do not have this capability the only safe assumption is that they do admit that most of my cryptographic complaints are probably unfounded but since we cant know one way or the other im not gonig to take their word for it obviously the compromise of would be disaster both to law enforcement for whom this whole thing is designed and for the people who believe that it is giving them security is but one number and sure that alot of people more then know what it is and if some panel of experts is going to check it over for flaws then many more will know forget grinding chips bribery and blackmail work just fine it not clear that the experts will be told in fact be surprised expect something more of the form of the fips pub describing des so that they could look at the algorithm in general rather than with the specific set of keys chosen oh come on thats like saying you could evaluate des without the box constants jon xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt comp org acm newsgroups sci crypt comp org acm path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech swrinde sdd hp com elroy jpl nasa gov ames pacbell com amdahl netcomsv metaflow rschnapp from rschnapp metaflow com russ schnapp subject re overreacting was re once tapped your code is no good any more message id c5wtwn c8w metaflow com keywords paranoia cryptography clipper sender usenet metaflow com nntp posting host habu organization metaflow technologies inc references apr22 rick dgbt doc ca distribution na date fri apr gmt lines in article apr22 rick dgbt doc ca jhan debra dgbt doc ca jerry han writes in this giant bally ho over this clipper chip noticed rather disturbing trend in some of the mail and posts ve tossing back and forth somebody asked me what was wrong about overreacting in cases such as this the reason is very simple how many people do you want to die in riot in new civil war everybody is jumping up and down and screaming about it and worried that people are going to reach for their hammers and rifles before their pens and paper well know one person who is ready to kill me and the victim is this whole topic damnit please stop copying all this crap to comp org acm please russ schnapp email netcom metaflow rschnapp or rschnapp metaflow com or rschnapp bix com metaflow technologies voice x230 fax la jolla california unless otw specified speaking only for myself xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy clipper newsgroups sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu gatech howland reston ans net agate ames purdue yuma holland from holland cs colostate edu douglas craig holland subject re new encryption sender news yuma acns colostate edu news account message id apr23 yuma acns colostate edu date fri apr gmt references r4e9d pdo sol tis com apr21 wam umd edu strnlghtc5wc3z erw netcom com nntp posting host beethoven cs colostate edu organization colorado state university computer science department lines in article strnlghtc5wc3z erw netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes psionic wam umd edu whose parenthesized name is either an unfortunate coincidence or casts serious doubt on his bona fides posts message in which he seems willing to take the word of private firm about which he knows little that their new encryption algorithm is secure and contains no trapdoors while seemingly distrusting that of the government about clipper have couple reasons why would be more likely to trust this algorithm the algorithm will be made totally public once it is patented the keys will not be escrowed of course if either of these is not true will not use this new algorithm since have never seen this new algorithm have no idea how secure it is yet suppose it depends on how paranoid one wishes to be but how does the writer know the firm isn for example an nsa front for purposes of this message how do we know psionic isn don suggest that but post this to point out that there is class of speculation that has no more truth value without lots of hard evidence than the contrary one by the way if psionic had said in lower case letters that the firm claims there was no back door have no problem with that phrasing can make any judgements about the algorithm itself yet but do notice that the creators of this algorithm are being more open about how the thing works and is willing to make it public showing that after bit of scrutiny any weaknesses will probably be revealed while we don know about clipper doug holland doug holland anyone who tries to take away my freedom holland cs colostate edu of speech will have to pry it from my pgp key available by mail cold dead lips xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy clipper newsgroups sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov ames pacbell com att out cbnewsh cbnewsh cb att com wcs from wcs anchor ho att com bill stewart subject re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip organization the best minds of generation destroyed by madness date fri apr gmt message id wcs apr22193809 rainier att com in reply to ebrandt jarthur claremont edu message of wed apr gmt keywords penn and teller could sneak out of the key generation vault with your keys the nsa probably can too references apr20 ulysses att com c5sy1z td demon co uk apr21 ulysses att com c5uup3 wp news claremont edu sender news cbnewsh cb att com netnews administrator nntp posting host rainier ho att com lines in article c5uup3 wp news claremont edu ebrandt jarthur claremont edu eli brandt writes in article apr21 ulysses att com smb research att com steven bellovin writes remember that they ve promised to let committee of outside experts see the cryptosystem design hope there are some silicon jocks on the committee who can follow the algorithm through to hardware while doubt the nsa would pull any monkey business on this point they have to expect that the chip will be reverse engineered sooner or later it an obvious opportunity to introduce additional holes the chip isn the place to pull the monkey business you do it in the key generation either by having mathematical backdoor or by having the program on the laptop that supposedly generates the keys also save copy of s1 and s2 and leak it out somehow or by having the program that supposedly puts the official keys on the chip actually put different key there very hard to detect since the escrow agents have to either trust the nsa laptop or give each other the keys and they still don know the algorithm or have the chip burner at the factory make copies of the keys or whatever pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com at bell labs m312 holmdel nj no from new jersey only work in cyberspace white house commect line fax newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net agate ames pacbell com uop csus edu netcom com rlglende from rlglende netcom com robert lewis glendenning subject re do we need the clipper for cheap security message id rlglendec5wx7b rx netcom com organization netcom online communication services guest references apr21 shearson com c5uphy gh7 dcs ed ac uk rdippold qualcom date fri apr gmt lines there are chips which perform the voice compression expansion they can be expensive because they exist in many phones connected to pbxs or on the pbx line cards as well as in lot of equipment which compresses voice grade circuits to save the cost of long distance leased t1s or satellite circuits can remember the generic term for these chips my impression is that this was big deal years ago but circuits have gotten so cheap that it isn done much now lew lew glendenning rlglende netcom com perspective is worth iq points niels bohr or somebody like that newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net agate ames pacbell com att out walter qualcom qualcomm com qualcom rdippold from rdippold qualcomm com ron asbestos dippold subject re wiretapping reality today message id rdippold qualcom originator rdippold qualcom qualcomm com sender news qualcomm com nntp posting host qualcom qualcomm com organization qualcomm inc san diego ca references gumby apr20073629 tweedledumb cygnus com apr22 news clarkson edu strnlghtc5wjn3 t1 netcom com strnlghtc5wkh0 netcom com date fri apr gmt lines strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes some of the messages here seem to reflect the view that the government is listening in on everything and one will have to hide one clipper messages somehow if non escrowed crypto goes away little perspective might be in order right people here believe the government is listening in on everything sure if you can provide an answer change the assumptions to something you can deal with it not matter of the government listening on on everything it matter of the government listening on anyone they take an interest in say if you do something heinous like attend computer meeting at mall the secret service decides to go for warrantless search and acquires your name it matter of any number of possible wiretap abuses that cryptology makes far less likely and this chip can sabotage par for the course though predicted that you be jumping in in favor of this the reply was that you justify anything up to and including death camps as long as the government backed them and had written policy statement perhaps little extreme but not much seattle is an indian word meaning degrees and raining newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net agate ames pacbell com att out cbnewsh cbnewsh cb att com wcs from wcs anchor ho att com bill stewart subject re do we need the clipper for cheap security organization the best minds of generation destroyed by madness date fri apr gmt message id wcs apr22203503 rainier att com in reply to pdc dcs ed ac uk message of wed apr gmt references aa10506 pizzabox demon co uk apr21 shearson com c5uphy gh7 dcs ed ac uk sender news cbnewsh cb att com netnews administrator nntp posting host rainier ho att com lines in article c5uphy gh7 dcs ed ac uk pdc dcs ed ac uk paul crowley writes how fast do the fastest modems go fast is targeted for about kbps kbps is and may be here soon too remember to ignore compression figures which make your modem go faster on compressible data because voice gets compressed better than that and encryption makes further compression impossible how far can voice be compressed the stu iii phones on the market from at motorola and forget who else give you choice of and baud the and are celp and think the is some earlier military vocoder stuff is decent is pretty artificial anything less is speak spell can produce quite adequate sound there also some kbps celp around dsps have made it possible to do all this in real time for cheap old hand government crypto have trouble adjusting to systems faster than baud because if the voice on the other end sounds good you assume the crypto hasn been turned on yet pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com at bell labs m312 holmdel nj no from new jersey only work in cyberspace white house commect line fax newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net agate ames purdue yuma holland from holland cs colostate edu douglas craig holland subject re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only sender news yuma acns colostate edu news account message id apr23 yuma acns colostate edu date fri apr gmt references r47l1inn8gq senator bedfellow mit edu apr22 yuma acns colostate edu strnlghtc5wjag netcom com nntp posting host beethoven cs colostate edu organization colorado state university computer science department lines in article strnlghtc5wjag netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes doug holland claims tom clancy has provided the recipe for nuclear bombs clancy himself says he has omitted certain crucial steps further how do we know clancy knows rather than repeating what he read or been told in the unclassified domain tom clancy omitted these key steps to try to prevent groups of people from building nuclear bomb however he asserts that you can find these key steps in any university library the main point of five minutes to midnight is that it is impossible to prevent the proliferation of nuclear weapons since it has become easy to acquire the knowledge to build one and fissible materials are nearly impossible to control read this article or better yet run to your library yourself and dig up some stuff on constructing nuclear weapon doug holland doug holland anyone who tries to take away my freedom holland cs colostate edu of speech will have to pry it from my pgp key available by mail cold dead lips newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net agate ames pacbell com uop csus edu netcom com rlglende from rlglende netcom com robert lewis glendenning subject re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only message id rlglendec5wyr5 u6 netcom com organization netcom online communication services guest references c5qy3m de3 agora rain com almaden ibm com r4g7l fdl sunb ocs mq edu au date fri apr gmt lines in article r4g7l fdl sunb ocs mq edu au ifarqhar laurel ocs mq edu au ian farquhar writes in article almaden ibm com ameline vnet ibm com ian ameline writes also believe that someone will reverse engineer the clipper chip and knowlege of the algorithm will likely be fairly widespread any back doors or weaknesses would further discredit the scheme and help grow the market demand for secure alternative there are companies one in canada as recall which specialize in analyzing chips to understand process technology design rules to understand the probable yield of the assembly line making them and therefore the probable current cost and possible future cost curves given design shrinks statistical quality control better yields etc taiwanese japanese and especially korean semiconductor manufacturers have all korea continues reverse engineered foreign chips and produced the chip taiwan and japan have signed intellectual property treaties and now at least extract the gate transitor level design before laying the chip out again the koreans still use mask level copying believe at least they are under lot of pressure to pass laws to meet international intellectual property standards all this despite lots of attempts to hide the designs there are lots of techniques to do so in both hardware and software design for complex chip there will be real intellectual effort extracting the gate design from the transistor design and the algorithm from the gate design but it won take two smart guys even months working hour weeks koreans work or more lew lew glendenning rlglende netcom com perspective is worth iq points niels bohr or somebody like that xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt privacy clipper alt security pgp path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu andrew cmu edu sl3b from stephen ludwick sl3b andrew cmu edu newsgroups sci crypt alt privacy clipper alt security pgp subject encryption chip availibility date thu apr organization junior mechanical engineering carnegie mellon pittsburgh pa lines message id ofpppcs00iuy0 k3mr andrew cmu edu nntp posting host po5 andrew cmu edu hi everybody does anyone know of companies that are currently manufacturing encryption chips for sale to the general public get them while you can some pointers would be greatly appreciated thanks steve path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net usc rand org jim from jim rand org jim gillogly newsgroups sci crypt subject re ideas on clipper message id rand org date apr gmt references aa09097 mycroft rand org gfpo wu00wc70qoq4o andrew cmu edu sender news rand org organization banzai institute lines nntp posting host mycroft rand org was annoyed to find that this guy posted my private mail response to him but since believe what said ll defend it anyway in article gfpo wu00wc70qoq4o andrew cmu edu jb7m andrew cmu edu jon bennett writes jim gillogly jim mycroft rand org writes in private mail they re betting that you can cryptanalyze to get given but we can do this right now with des even knowing the encryption method without doing almost the whole bit search that is not true with chosen plaintext attacks des keys can be determined without the full search by almost mean the differential cryptanalysis attack the chosen plaintext attack requires detailed analysis of about chosen plaintexts drawn from total of about that need to be run if understand the situation correctly this is certainly break under the meaning of the act but does not constitute much less work than the brute force keysearch the rest of his article assumes that we can figure out the skipjack encryption algorithm by choosing the correct data to send through it and observe the results wish him joy of it and choose not to try that attack am not defending the system and in fact am offended by the ideas of escrowed keys or secret algorithm becoming de facto industry standard however also object to opposing it for the wrong reasons since that weakens the case against it said in my private mail it not clear that the experts will be told in fact be surprised expect something more of the form of the fips pub describing des so that they could look at the algorithm in general rather than with the specific set of keys chosen oh come on thats like saying you could evaluate des without the box constants no it quite different the government would have no percentage in choosing to be weak key since it not to their advantage to have anybody else know it the experts could thus assume that is no worse than anything else during their analysis totally different situation from unknown boxes again not saying it would be good or satisfactory for the experts to just be given the raw algorithm without the rest of the surrounding details regarding the chip and protocols and so on simply that doubt that they would be given all the information jim gillogly trewesday thrimidge path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net transfer stratus com ellisun sw stratus com cme from cme ellisun sw stratus com carl ellison newsgroups sci crypt subject re text of white house announcement and as on clipper chip encryption date apr gmt organization stratus computer software engineering lines message id r72b8 gad transfer stratus com references apr19 afterlife ncsc mil bontchev fbihh rwing uucp nntp posting host ellisun sw stratus com in article rwing uucp pat rwing uucp pat myrto writes for example conversation between suspect and lawyer will no longer be private from big brother eavesdropping now almost years later we have the right words for the problem here phone calls are virtual visits those experienced in virtual reality would know from that title that phone calls need to have all the properties of walk in the park with your friend security from casual overhearing and easy verification to see if anyone is listening secretively as designed they fail at that trouble is telephones were invented long time ago and people didn realize the danger or the concept of virtual reality back then disclaimer all opinions expressed are my own of course carl ellison cme sw stratus com stratus computer inc m3 bkw tel fairbanks boulevard marlborough ma fax xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net transfer stratus com ellisun sw stratus com cme from cme ellisun sw stratus com carl ellison newsgroups sci crypt alt privacy clipper subject re do we need the clipper for cheap security followup to alt privacy clipper date apr gmt organization stratus computer software engineering lines message id r73ik gqf transfer stratus com references apr20 shearson com r1f62 rh5 news intercon com c5trgt ew4 news claremont edu nntp posting host ellisun sw stratus com in article c5trgt ew4 news claremont edu ebrandt jarthur claremont edu eli brandt writes remember in the announcement they described this scheme as balancing the two extremes of having no privacy and claiming that citizens had constitutional right to encryption so much for clinton support of the right of privacy there an out for him the announcement talked about strong cryptography believe specifically nor is the saying that every american as matter of right is entitled to an unbreakable commercial encryption product every vendor claims his product is unbreakable so this was sloppy wording am not claiming that we private citizens should have access to the nsa best secret algorithms don want any nsa algorithms actually ll let them break my pitiful amateur algorithms and rsa all want is what have already the ability and right to invent and use my own algorithms share them with my friends and sell them disclaimer all opinions expressed are my own of course carl ellison cme sw stratus com stratus computer inc m3 bkw tel fairbanks boulevard marlborough ma fax xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt privacy clipper comp org eff talk path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net transfer stratus com ellisun sw stratus com cme from cme ellisun sw stratus com carl ellison newsgroups sci crypt alt privacy clipper comp org eff talk subject write to clinton date apr gmt organization stratus computer software engineering lines distribution world message id r74a4 h2t transfer stratus com nntp posting host ellisun sw stratus com ve been reading the sci crypt alt privacy clipper and comp org eff talk discussions about the clipper chip and find as usual that most of us think alike so there lot of repitition if each of these messages were sent to clinton as well as to the net or instead of to the net we might actually have some effect mcimail com white house disclaimer all opinions expressed are my own of course carl ellison cme sw stratus com stratus computer inc m3 bkw tel fairbanks boulevard marlborough ma fax xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp org eff talk alt privacy clipper sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net transfer stratus com ellisun sw stratus com cme from cme ellisun sw stratus com carl ellison newsgroups comp org eff talk alt privacy clipper sci crypt subject re organized lobbying for cryptography date apr gmt organization stratus computer software engineering lines distribution inet message id r74ta hcs transfer stratus com references r2gb5 h0r transfer stratus com r3jgbinn35i eli cs yale edu nntp posting host ellisun sw stratus com in article r3jgbinn35i eli cs yale edu jgfoot minerva cis yale edu writes perhaps these encryption only types would defend the digitized porn if it was posted encrypted these issues are not as seperable as you maintain to paraphrase may not agree with what you re encrypting but defend your right to encrypt it disclaimer all opinions expressed are my own of course carl ellison cme sw stratus com stratus computer inc m3 bkw tel fairbanks boulevard marlborough ma fax xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt privacy comp org eff talk sci crypt alt security pgp path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu andrew cmu edu sl3b from stephen ludwick sl3b andrew cmu edu newsgroups alt privacy comp org eff talk sci crypt alt security pgp subject encryption chips date thu apr organization junior mechanical engineering carnegie mellon pittsburgh pa lines distribution inet message id ifpqp1e00iuy0 k8di andrew cmu edu nntp posting host po3 andrew cmu edu does anyone know where can get hold of some secure encrypting chips or devices before they are banned completely steve if encryption is outlawed only outlaws will have encryption newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov ames haven umd edu uunet well well sf ca us artmel from artmel well sf ca us arthur melnick subject new encryption algorithm message id artmel well sf ca us summary the history of nea keywords nea sender news well sf ca us nntp posting host well sf ca us organization the whole earth lectronic link sausalito ca date fri apr gmt lines ever since craig rowland posted his piece new encryption to sci crypt there has been some discussion of our company secured communications technologies inc and on encryption algorithm nea spoke to craig at length on and we covered lot of ground some of the information in the posting requires some clarification and would like to answer some of the questions raised on sci crypt sct is small company based in silver spring maryland our two main products at this time are pc based secure communications program called secom and general purpose encryption chip which uses the nea algorithm developed for secom secom provides an encrypted secure communication link between two pc connected over dial up telephone lines it supports simultaneous bi directional file transfer and keyboard to screen chat it has its own proprietary communications protocol which is tightly integrated to the encryption all though it is packetized link the data stream appears to be continuous because the packet boundaries are hidden when secom was initially developed it was implemented to use des encryption business decision was made to seek export approval for the product because it was perceived that the overseas market was large one and provided good marketing opportunity we soon found out that we would never be granted general export approval for anything using des all though the reason for this was never explicitly stated it seems to have something to do with secret government to government agreements which are still in effect in any event the decision was made to develop new and different algorithm which would take the place of des this was the reason nea new encryption algorithm was born at this time nea is being held as trade secret the preliminary work of patenting it has begun and the plan is to make it public once the patent process is complete all though one can make certain legal arguments for keeping it an ongoing secret think in the case of an encryption algorithm it is necessary to let people shoot at it over an extended period of time to prove its worth in order to get export approval for secom nea it was necessary to go through nsa and to reveal to them the details of the program and algorithm this was done only after we had finished product to submit let me state unequivocally that there is no back door to the program or the algorithm secured communications technologies is closely held private company and nsa fbi cia nist whatever has no financial interest in any way whatsoever with the company or any of the people involved from practical business standpoint we are interested in selling chips and software hopefully in large quantities and back door to the encryption if found out could destroy our credibility and our business with the encryption algorithm approved for export we set out to talk to number of potential customers for encryption products and systems we were able to identify several common threads of functionality requirements this led to the design of chip with the encryption algorithm cast in silicon and certain other capabilities added so that the chip could fulfill the broad range of requirements that we identified we are strongly opposed to the clipper capstone chips in press release today our president dr stephen bryen stated it seems as if the government has an unlimited source of funds to use to push its new bugged chips on the american public but do we not understand how the national security agency which is not supposed to be involved in domestic spying can fund the development of commercial chip intended to accommodate government domestic spying activities if they had asked me to put back door in nea would have told them to ed can nsa break nea or for that matter can they break des rsa idea diffy hellman pgp rc2 rc4 or whatever don know and probably never will path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech news byu edu news mtholyoke edu nic umass edu twain ucs umass edu not for mail from quilty twain ucs umass edu lulu of the lotus eaters newsgroups sci crypt subject info on mathematics of encryption wanted date apr organization university of massachusetts amherst lines distribution world message id r7s4cinnjud twain ucs umass edu nntp posting host twain ucs umass edu just signed up for this group so hope not missing something in faq but looking for good introduction to the mathematics of encryption particularly des and public key though others would be interesting also probably good library could help me out but thought it might be even easier if could obtain nice article entirely electronically besides have this rather rational phobia of libraries for reasons stemming from this dissertation thing hanging over my head have basic knowledge of mathematics number theory is bit unfamiliar to me but ve had few graduate level math courses in some other areas anyway not complete novice to the field so probably something aimed at basic graduate introductory level would be about right something anyway which is more specific than really big prime number is generated to code the message if someone knows of good text available by ftp or gopher or would like to email me one please let me know ll probably keep reading this group but it would be nice if you would email me at the same time so don miss it thanx lulu this message was brought to you by postmodern enterprises quilty philos umass edu the opinions expressed here must be those of my employer surely you don think that believe them xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy comp org eff talk newsgroups sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy comp org eff talk path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet mailgate mobil com dlpcbc awful lerami merlin from merlin lerami lerctr org david hayes subject re the secret source of that announcement message id c5x2xs ef0 lerami lerctr org date fri apr gmt distribution inet references apr21 leland stanford edu gradyc5uamw bng netcom com r3vjhinn5iq dns1 nmsu edu organization not bloody likely lines in article r3vjhinn5iq dns1 nmsu edu amolitor nmsu edu andrew molitor writes in article gradyc5uamw bng netcom com grady netcom com ef221 writes if you can get it for buck nd hand it must be true eh pretty sure the nsa is supposed to among many other things provide high quality cryptosystems to variety of places don recall reading anywhere reliable that they re supposed to monitor my phonecalls monitor usenet provide only cryptosystems they can easily crack etc etc this is not to say that they don they might but you don know that they do and you have no evidence that they do for almost all values of you it follows therefore that for most values of you your claims about the nsa border on paranoia andrew ok andrew ll provide some evidence friend of mine worked for an electronics manufacturer on with west coast office they routinely sold equipment to the japanese one day the japanese started showing up with discount demands that were amazingly close to the cost to manufacture the products this company routinely sent most of the manufacturing data to the field offices the japanese had simply intercepted it so my friend the computer systems admin came up with solution he started sending the data out double block encrypted with des two days after this new distribution plan was implemented the president of the company got visit from pair of government agents they told him to knock it off the president gave in since his company did considerable business with the federal government now if the government wasn monitoring the communications how would they even know that the encryption system was installed further since encryp tion isn illegal and des certainly isn what is the basis of the government cease and desist demand the spooks do whatever they think is necessary with or without the blessings of the law ll say no thanks to clipper or anything else the government produces for the moment double or triple des is probably adequate and when the line is idle send random garbage just to keep em busy david hayes merlin lerami lerctr org xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu cis ohio state edu pacific mps ohio state edu zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net agate headwall stanford edu bu edu acs bu edu uni from uni acs bu edu shaen bernhardt newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee subject re overreacting was re once tapped your code is no good any more message id bu edu date apr gmt references apr22 rick dgbt doc ca sender news bu edu followup to sci crypt distribution na organization boston university boston ma usa lines in article apr22 rick dgbt doc ca jhan debra dgbt doc ca jerry han writes in this giant bally ho over this clipper chip noticed rather disturbing trend in some of the mail and posts ve tossing back and forth somebody asked me what was wrong about overreacting in cases such as this the reason is very simple how many people do you want to die in riot in new civil war everybody is jumping up and down and screaming about it and worried that people are going to reach for their hammers and rifles before their pens and paper can people work within the system before trying to break it circut court judge in illinois once said when dealing with government that seeks continually new and more creative ways to spy on its citizenry one cannot discourage the move to empower the common citizen with the means to parry this attack on personal privacy unfortunately the comment was with regard to the banning of radar detectors the point remains more and more see the government slowly washing away privacy even unwittingly do you think will ever live in soceity that issues smart cards to citizens at birth do you think will live in soceity that insists register my crypto keys so they can keep track of what saying even if there is no evidence of my guilt do you think will ever live in soceity that seeks to meddle in the affairs of its citizenry without recourse of any kind tired of it there is imho no compromise with an administration that seeks to implement these proposals under the guise of enhancing privacy more than the proposals themselves read the language of the press releases the obvious deception involved in presenting these pieces to the public and am sickened am revolted am repulsed perhaps even of this country could care less about the clipper chip the wiretap bill the smart card because they are so entrapped in the rhetoric of the clinton administration this saddens and frightens me am conserveative believe it or not law and order conserveative but the move to centralized authoratarian regime really scares me mostly because know you cant go far wrong underestimating the intelligence of the american people tell them it going to keep them safe from drug dealers and terrorists and they will let you put cameras in their home even in the wake of waco you find those who support the increasingly totalatarian moves somebody once said something like armed violence is meant only to be used in response to an armed attack it is not meant to be used in agression this is the difference between self defence and murder to be quite honest the way things are going call it self defense let try to avoid killing things eh there enough blood shed in the world without adding couple of riots civil wars etc probably overreacting but what ve read scared me lot don want my children growing up in war zone and dont want mine growning up in the eyes of security camera hours day jerry han crc doc div of behavioural research jhan debra dgbt doc ca these are my opinions and my opinions only proud and frozen member of the mighty warriors band memories of those ve left behind still ringing in my ears genesis uni uni acs bu edu public keys by finger and or request public key archives pgp public keys pgp iastate edu sovereignty is the sign of brutal past fight clinton wiretap chip df610670f2467b99 de2b5c3749148c crypto is not crime ask me how newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu emory europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net agate ames pacbell com uop csus edu netcom com tcmay from tcmay netcom com timothy may subject re estimating wiretap costs benefits message id tcmayc5x7zv ceo netcom com organization netcom on line communication services guest newsreader tin pl5 references apr22 kronos arc nasa gov date fri apr gmt lines robin hanson hanson kronos arc nasa gov wrote would wiretap chip be cost effective summary compared to an average monthly phone bill of sixty dollars wiretaps are only worth two cents month to police so the proposed wiretap chip must raise phone costs by less than one part in three thousand to be cost effective robin calculation is interesting and important even if it off by an order of magnitude for example even if hardware costs for the clipper chip phones were zero the protocol overhead in transmitting the escrow field would be much higher than the part in thousand it depends on the exact details of the phone call length protocol etc shorter calls get proportionately greater hit however suspect most americans will not find this line of reasoning as persuasive as the analogies about escrowing keys to one house are tim may timothy may crypto anarchy encryption digital money tcmay netcom com anonymous networks digital pseudonyms zero knowledge reputations information markets aptos ca black markets collapse of governments higher power public key pgp and mailsafe available path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu usenet coe montana edu news washington edu netnews nwnet net spiff seattleu edu thebes ole rwing pat from pat rwing uucp pat myrto newsgroups sci crypt subject re the clipper chip technical summary message id rwing uucp date apr gmt references apr19 guvax acc georgetown edu organization totally unorganized lines in article apr19 guvax acc georgetown edu denning guvax acc georgetown edu writes the following document summarizes the clipper chip how it is used how programming of the chip is coupled to key generation and the escrow process and how law enforcement decrypts communications interesting tell us what happens if were to say ok want to have something else if the law enforcement wants my traffic they can record it then get search warrant and get the keys from me just like they would the keys to stout private safe etc lets say suspect that there is way to trivially crack this at the fed level with no warrant say for nsa scanning for keywords etc and the government has abused great power in the past so say mr vendor want something different independent am paranoid sort ya understand will the result be sorry without government permission we cannot sell you anything secure or would it be sorry we know which side our bread is buttered on we cannot sell except to government people law enforcement and special people what in your opinion would be the chances of sure we will sell you this secure system be happy to also please be so kind as to tell us what the plans are for private encryption of say files transferred by modem or ftp or data stored on disk surely you have feel for what the administration is planning for us people on that with your rather intimate relationship with the fbi nsa etc you must certainly have an idea you are surely not going to say the people are not to know until it is too late this is supposed to be government of the people by the people isn it that is the people are the government bosses the bosses want to know what the is going on here you see am kind of nervous because in the last month or so have seen non stop stream of ideas coming out of wash dc that at least appear very strongly to have common trait to limit privacy freedom from govt eavesdropping and the ability to defend ourselves against violent attack no is not good enough for common folk they arrive only in time to clean up the mess would be dead if had to depend on you see with all that talk about national smart id cards limiting of encryption to government approved denial of means to effective personal defense eight bills in congress right now it looks an awfully lot like the whole thing is to be able to trace every activity of an individual from cradle to grave all it would take is requiring that national id card to be used in all transactions and with no effective data protection and with the people suitably disarmed there would not be helluva lot they could do about it now would there all in the name of the war on the constitu er drugs and of course that catch word terrorists what is wrong with good old fashioned police work to build case they don want to have to be burdened to leave the office it seems please read the bill of rights first ten amendments to the us constitution and tell us how you can reconcile this big brother ish policy of the administration always for crisis of some kind isn it with that bill of rights in the context of the people who wrote it reassure us please or is that no longer regarded as necessary seeing as apparantly the people have no input on this agenda the administration preferring to make all the decisions in secret then springing it on us doesn sound much like by the people to me cannot help notice that the congress people involved were not mentioned on the press release find that more than little bit curious don you sure would like to know who to not vote for come election time yes am upset feel you are part of this because recall it was you that was posting heavily in favor of very similar idea could have been the same thing it was so close few months ago also recall it was not well received apparantly powers that be really didn care or were not told or both from what see clipper will only be useful for conversations don want the neighborhood kid listening in on any serious security don think would want to trust it bit might as well use cleartext certainly corporations would be rather dumb to depend on this for serious trade secret data especially if millions depended on that security given enough money one could buy any keys they wanted buy crooked judge and crooked cop given few hundred thou they wouldn be hard to find so we end up with only criminals terrorists and the government with real security and the ability to eavesdrop you know the first two if they are serious ain going to use this thing for their communications bet the government won either except perhaps to order pizza tell us will that be prima face evidence of criminal activity someone not using the government approved methods that just desire to have privacy is no longer regarded as legitimate right of an unconnected citizen will that be grounds for fly through the door raid and confiscation of all one equipment as terrorist tools using civil forfeiture so there will be no inconvenient need to prove any wrongdoing on the part of the citizen have yet another question are we going to see articles in all the public magazines consisting of soothing text telling us how great this is how nice the government is by letting us have this illusion of privacy that the government is going to be so kind as to let us sort of exercise right what you want to bet that am correct here please answer these questions as citizens of the united states we hava right to know what our government plans to let us have out of the goodness of their hearts funny thing though with all these proposals don feel one bit safer from drug dealers terrorists or common street thug am beginning to wonder if the greater danger lies in the above entities or our own government gone out of control re assure us please so far haven seen much to reassure me and lot to greatly disturb me pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle wa if all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and am not sure about the former albert einstien path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet digex com digex com not for mail from steve access digex com steve brinich newsgroups sci crypt subject re fear uncertainty doubt date apr organization express access online communications greenbelt md usa lines message id r7ija iu9 access digex net references r4vo3 koj access digex net strnlghtc5wklq as netcom com nntp posting host access digex net more accurate is that the government says its solid other people in the field who might be able to find out haven yet done their review of the chip design and there been lot of wild speculation and guesswork from those with little information that it might be swiss cheese oh that puts the debate on excellent terms for our side feds you people saying that clipper is insecure don have any real information to support that judgment me fine show me this information that would prove me wrong feds that secret when it comes down to that it looks suspiciously like some government official pasting top secret stamps over embarrasing information in order to save his own hide in fact framing the secrecy issue in that perspective is more likely to turn joe sixpack suspicions against the feds than the constitutional argument point urge the others on the pro freedom side to consider when making their case newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech ukma mont mizzou1 missouri edu c445585 from c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu john kelsey subject re clipper considered harmful message id bb9f30 c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu sender news mont cs missouri edu nntp posting host mizzou1 missouri edu organization university of missouri date fri apr cdt lines the clipper chip user key is formed by r1 n1 s1 s2 s1 r2 n2 s1 s2 s1 r3 n3 s1 s2 s1 why is the triple encrytion used is it just to gain an effective increase in keyspace to defeat potential keysearch if so why use bit keys not knowing anything about the skipjack algorithm it not really possible to guess whether this makes it harder or easier to guess s1 s2 why are n1 n2 and n3 formed as they are it would be facinating to see the skipjack algorithm to look for ways of attacking it that require three ciphertext blocks formed in that odd way where do the bit constant values that are concatenated with the serial number to form n1 n2 n3 come from are they changed from chip to chip or session to session even if they re published in the ny times if skipjack is resistant to known plaintext attacks when using triple encryption then there no break in security but why allow that kind of weird format if those three bit values are truly random bits then maybe it used to ensure that known plaintext attack on skipjack if it exists can be easily used to derive s1 and s2 for whole production run of these chips does dorothy denning read this group if not is someone on the group forwarding questions like these to her or martin hellman or anyone else who seen more details about the chip john kelsey xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt privacy clipper sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet digex com digex com not for mail from steve access digex com steve brinich newsgroups alt privacy clipper sci crypt subject re is key escrow enough date apr organization express access online communications greenbelt md usa lines distribution world message id r7p86 access digex net references apr22 uc msc edu apr22 yuma acns colostate edu strnlghtc5wl17 wb netcom com apr22 wdl loral com nntp posting host access digex net the points raised about checking what is actually in the chip as opposed to what is allegedly programmed therein raise yet another trust issue even if we assume that these trusted agents are really entering wide range of s1 and s2 seeds rather than using the same one all the time to reduce the key search space to bits assume they are not doing so by picking up an iron filing and poking it into the circuitry at carefully selected points to encode data they would presumably be punching numbers into computer which for all they know could program the chips in manner completely independent of the s1 and s2 values they are feeding into the system path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet digex com digex com not for mail from servalan access digex com servalan newsgroups sci crypt subject re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only date apr organization express access online communications usa lines message id r7urf ku access digex net references c5qy3m de3 agora rain com r1g82 rui news intercon com apr22 lehman com nntp posting host access digex net in article apr22 lehman com pmetzger snark shearson com perry metzger writes qualcomm had spare cycles in the dsps for their new cdma digital cellular phones they wanted to put strong crypto into them since they had the capacity the government decided to discourage them you re blowing smoke qualcomm wants to sell to nice lucrative overseas markets like japan and the ec the government told them don do encryption if you ever hope to export this technology the reason that cdma doesn have encryption is not because the men came knocking at qualcomm door it because qualcomm doesn think that the us market for digital cellular is big enough for them this is just the international traffic in arms regulations all over again if you don believe me call qualcomm and ask them don just throw out conspicracy theories at least don do it on sci crypt there are whole other newsgroups devoted to this kind of uninformed claptrap any normal company trying to put one out will likely get visit from the boys in the dark suits from washington just like qualcomm did suspect that companies like cylink are tolerated because their products are too expensive hah they re not that much more expensive besides if drug dealer can afford rolex and mercedes he can darn well afford cylink phones no cylink sells their phones because they re willing to make different stuff for domestic use vs export qualcomm isn so cylink makes money that capitalism comrade someone out there will build unit to do all this better yet prehaps someone will produce package that turns any box with sound card into secure phone someone this and someone that if you think it so easy why are you whining on the net instead of getting your butt in gear and writing it your name would become known and loved by dozens but no that would require actual effort servalan newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech ukma mont mizzou1 missouri edu c445585 from c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu john kelsey subject crypto papers on the net message id bb91429 c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu sender news mont cs missouri edu nntp posting host mizzou1 missouri edu organization university of missouri date fri apr cdt lines ve recently been reading paper of merkle publixhed only on the net think discussing three potential replacements for des was anyting ever done with these are khufu khafre and or snefru still being discussed anywhere know snefru is referenced in the rsa faq and think it may also be in the sci crypt faq on related topic can anyone point me toward good sites to find papers articles discussions of cryptology think ve about exhausted the math sci library here which doesn seem to have anything more recent than about thanks john kelsey newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech ukma mont mizzou1 missouri edu c445585 from c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu john kelsey subject pgp ideas for ibm systems message id bb915c6 c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu sender news mont cs missouri edu nntp posting host mizzou1 missouri edu organization university of missouri date fri apr cdt lines ve been thinking about how difficult it would be to make pgp available in some form on ebcdic machines the message authentication would be ugly but think at least the idea encryption could work if pgp had switch to tell it to use idea in ofb mode or ecb mode in ofb mode errors in translating ebcdic ascii ebcdic would only affect their byte not the bytes that would be affected under cbc is pgp set up to use different idea modes don recall notincing it in the executable but haven gone through it as carefully as probably should john kelsey newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net spool mu edu mixcom com peter white from peter white peter white mixcom mixcom com subject why are we being censored in free america this node specificaly message id apr23 mixcom mixcom com sender ffaaff mixcom mixcom com peter white organization milwaukee internet xchange bbs milwaukee wi distribution usa date fri apr gmt lines have been scanning and trying to read the articles in the sci crypt area but what do get surprisingly the blurb comes upon the screen file xxx has either been cancelled or expired now ask you if it expired wouldn it be out of the available file cache am and not paranoid but the older get the greater my cynicism of both federal and state governments becomes the censorship of this internet and it is no less than censorship stupid me it the govt is ridiculous the japanese have far outstripped our ciphertechnology and our government is now before your very observant eyes trying to force the crypto standard onto framefork where the standard is now an ancient relic in terms of modern japanese security techniques now pose the question why censor folks on the net and send the warning shown above cancelled or expired when it would be wiser to not let people see the post at all which article of the constitution gives me the right of revolution if things seem to be going cockeyed hmmm peter white president synthesis inc milwaukee wisconsin peter white mixcom com newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet well rab from rab well sf ca us bob bickford subject re new encryption algorithm message id c5xjxs well sf ca us keywords nea sender news well sf ca us nntp posting host well sf ca us organization whole earth lectronic link references artmel well sf ca us date fri apr gmt lines in article artmel well sf ca us artmel well sf ca us arthur melnick writes in order to get export approval for secom nea it was necessary to go through nsa and to reveal to them the details of the program and algorithm this was done only after we had finished product to submit with the encryption algorithm approved for export we set please don be insulted but based on this would say that your encryption algorithm is very likely not worth the paper it printed on if the nsa gave export approval that means they felt confident that they could crack it that their job mandated by law and sure they believe in what they do if they gave export approval to an encryption algorithm which they weren confident of being able to crack they would be derelict in their sworn duty to monitor foreign communications for us national security related material just because many most of us think that the government and the spooks are pugnacious slimeballs is no reason to lose sight of the fact that they do their jobs to the best of their ability and further that said ability is rather high hope that one day we can make them all obsolete but until then we have to cope with their existence export approvals are one thing they do that we can learn lot from for example robert bickford rab well sf ca us don blame me voted libertarian xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy clipper nntp posting host gode ifi uio no newsgroups sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet pipex sunic ugle unit no news uit no trane uninett no nntp uio no ifi uio no jon from jon lnes jon ifi uio no subject re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip in reply to strnlght netcom com david sternlight message of thu apr gmt message id cmm jon gode ifi uio no sender jon ifi uio no jon lnes organization dept of informatics university of oslo norway references apr20 ulysses att com apr21 lokkur dexter mi us c5uvn4 mf7 austin ibm com strnlghtc5wcmo fx5 netcom com date fri apr gmt lines originator jon gode ifi uio no in article strnlghtc5wcmo fx5 netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes in article c5uvn4 mf7 austin ibm com arussell austin ibm com ag russell writes at the company worked for previously received file that was des encryped and the person that had sent it went on vaction rather than wait two weeks set up straight frontal attack with one key at time it only took two days to crack the file no don have any faith in des taking this at face value though it seems quite dissonant with much else that has been published here about brute force des cracking unless russell was lucky with respect to the key be very interested in whether the program russell used is available in whether he used cleartext recognition algorithm in the program or whether he had to examine each decryption by hand in whether he used known plaintext attack he probably should also tell us given his address what machine he used desktop workstation or super computer depending on his answer this could be an appalling development calling into question both des and rsa des dunno about rsa idea if any bright programmer with little idle machine time can crack single des message in couple of days assuming no tricks that are message specific then here my clipper key nsa give me the chip at once david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted person know belonging to research lab of rivate company claimed to me during priavte conversation that given the equipment in his lab he could crack kerberos ticket in minutes to an hour he had access to rather powerful des hardware but not of an extraordinare kind believe the attack was possible because of the amount of known plaintext in the ticket which itself constitutes small message this was two years ago des is no longer usable for encryption of really sensitive data for lot of purposes however it is still very adequate jon olnes norwegian computing centre oslo norway mail jon olnes nr no or jon ifi uio no xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp org eff talk alt privacy clipper sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu spdcc merk tacobel stan from stan tacobel uucp stan newsgroups comp org eff talk alt privacy clipper sci crypt subject re have seen the lobby and it is us message id g7vf3b3w165w tacobel uucp date thu apr edt references apr21 yuma acns colostate edu organization the temple of stan tbs world hq concord mass usa ns111310 lance colostate edu nathaniel sammons writes second the motion all in favor in favor if all have any newsletters or are taking down addresses for any in the future feel free to put me on such list xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc rutgers mcdhup src4src olias redsonja from redsonja olias linet org red sonja newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee subject re once tapped your code is no good any more message id apr22 olias linet org date apr gmt references apr18 yuma acns colostate edu strnlghtc5p7zp zm netcom com apr20 celestial com distribution na organization utter chaos in islip long island new york we think lines in article apr20 celestial com bill celestial com bill campbell writes in strnlghtc5p7zp zm netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes in article apr18 yuma acns colostate edu holland cs colostate edu douglas craig holland writes note that measures to protect yourself from tempest surveillance are still classified as far as know think this to be inaccurate one can buy tempest equipment commercially even macs sure you can buy tempest approved mac if you have enough money haven had any reason to look at this type of pricing for about years but tempest rating in would raise the price of radio shack model iii to something around or just dig deep enough hole in the ground feet should do it redsonja olias linet org rs self possession is of the law alien we control the laws of nature how come when it human it an joel and you still dress that way abortion but when it chicken mst3k gamera vs guiron it an omelet george carlin xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt privacy comp org eff talk newsgroups sci crypt alt privacy comp org eff talk path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu jebright from jebright magnus acs ohio state edu james ebright subject re the secret source of that announcement message id apr23 magnus acs ohio state edu sender news magnus acs ohio state edu nntp posting host bottom magnus acs ohio state edu organization the ohio state university references gradyc5uamw bng netcom com r3vjhinn5iq dns1 nmsu edu c5x2xs ef0 lerami lerctr org distribution inet date fri apr gmt lines in article merlin lerami lerctr org david hayes writes in article amolitor nmsu edu andrew molitor writes if you can get it for buck nd hand it must be true eh pretty sure the nsa is supposed to among many other things provide high quality cryptosystems to variety of places don recall reading anywhere reliable that they re supposed to monitor my phonecalls monitor usenet provide only cryptosystems they can easily crack etc etc this is not to say that they don they might but you don know that they do and you have no evidence that they do for almost all values of you it follows therefore that for most values of you your claims about the nsa border on paranoia andrew ok andrew ll provide some evidence friend of mine worked for an electronics manufacturer on with west coast office they routinely sold story deleted let me give you another story that actually happened to me we sell communications boards that use they used to be high tech our agent in the uk sold system to company in ch which packaged it in product for cz london bern prague telexed the brits and told them the swiss need to pass export paperwork through the us as at the time you needed an export lisence for these systems now knew the nsa was watching this traffic just like they are watching this traffic and what do you know two weeks later an agent of the us government shows up in my office to remind me if we or our agents sold systems into the evil empire we had better make sure the export lisences were handled properly he was part of five man office in columbus ohio who did this stuff based on sources he could not reveal assume most of the time these guys sat around the office with their thumbs up their ass as there isn that much stuff coming out of columbus wow the electric utility in prague sure is big worry for these folks the point is we have created giant bureaucracy nsa with budget bigger than the cia who like all bureaucracies fill their time looking for things to do the evil empire is gone the nsa is not they will do something to fill their time and justify their budgets just wish they too would sit around with their thumbs up their ass but that is too much to hope for they will spy on us and do things like skipjack and subvert people like dorothy denning sigh information farming at for addr phone finger the ohio state university jebright magnus acs ohio state edu jim ebright mail jre osu edu support privacy support encryption xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp org eff talk alt privacy clipper sci crypt newsgroups comp org eff talk alt privacy clipper sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet world smoir from smoir world std com scott moir subject re organized lobbying for cryptography message id c5xp8c lvd world std com organization the world public access unix brookline ma references r2gb5 h0r transfer stratus com r3jgbinn35i eli cs yale edu apr21 csus edu distribution inet date fri apr gmt lines in article apr21 csus edu sphughes sfsuvax1 sfsu edu shaun hughes writes in article r3jgbinn35i eli cs yale edu jgfoot minerva cis yale edu writes perhaps these encryption only types would defend the digitized porn if it was posted encrypted these issues are not as seperable as you maintain now why would anyone post anything encrypted encryption is only of use between persons who know how to decrypt the data you mean something like uuencode it isn super crypto but it is encrypted scott scott moir satyr on irc there really only one requirement smoir world std com for prophet and you ve got it b4 what that also pentangl ursa major spdcc com mouth god to bob dobbs path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet vnet ibm com from tarnold vnet ibm com todd arnold message id almaden ibm com date fri apr edt newsgroups sci crypt subject re can des code be shipped to canada organization ibm cryptographic facility development disclaimer this posting represents the poster views not those of ibm news software ureply references apr22 fripp ri cadre com strnlghtc5wkrt ja netcom com lines in article apr22 fripp ri cadre com rj ri cadre com writes someone in canada asked me to send him some public domain des file encryption code have is it legal for me to send it believe it legal to send des code or equipment from the us to canada with no export license think this is the only place you can do this all other countries require license as an aside ve always thought it should be legal to send des software anywhere if you follow these rules encrypt your des software with des send the encrypted software to the recipient send the key to the recipient the only way the person on the other end can use your des software is if he she already has des available otherwise they can decrypt your program and it is useless if you ve guaranteed they already have des have you really violated any law by sending it to them in the form of your program sure it still illegal but it seems like good idea todd xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp org eff talk sci crypt alt rush limbaugh alt fan rush limbaugh path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu uwm edu usenet from rick miller rick ee uwm edu newsgroups comp org eff talk sci crypt alt rush limbaugh alt fan rush limbaugh subject does rush read his mail date apr gmt organization just me lines distribution inet message id r8lokinne95 uwm edu references apr22 uc msc edu apr22 yuma acns colostate edu apr22 nynexst com nntp posting host summary was have seen the lobby and it is us rsilvers nynexst com robert silvers writes send something to rush linbaugh about clinton taking away our right to privacy and how if the govt standard takes off only people with lots of money drug dealers will be able to justify des stuff he will slam clinton for this on the air rob seem to recall rush saying that he has compuserve account if anyone wants to mail him all we need is his account number and then we could mail him via gateway by using dot instead of comma like so compuserve com this is not his address so does anyone know his mail address he says he uses it all the time wonder if he reads alt fan rush limbaugh his ego is big enough rick miller rick ee uwm edu ricxjo discus mil wi us ricxjo muelisto send postcard get one back enposxtigu bildkarton kaj vi ricevos alion rick miller woods muskego wis usa newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet pipex uknet pavo csi cam ac uk rja14 from rja14 cl cam ac uk ross anderson subject re key registering bodies message id apr23 infodev cam ac uk sender news infodev cam ac uk usenet news nntp posting host ely cl cam ac uk organization of cambridge computer lab uk references dockmaster ncsc mil naglec5w79e hl netcom com rubin dsg4 dse beckman com date fri apr gmt lines in article rubin dsg4 dse beckman com rubin dsg4 dse beckman com arthur rubin writes in naglec5w79e hl netcom com nagle netcom com john nagle writes since the law requires that wiretaps be requested by the executive branch and approved by the judicial branch it seems clear that one of the key registering bodies should be under the control of the judicial branch suggest the supreme court or regionally the courts of appeal more specifically the offices of their clerks now that makes sense but the other half must be in non government escrow good idea but why put all the eggs in one basket given that the escrow keys are generated at time on floppy disks why not keep them there rather than creating one huge database that will have to be guarded better than fort knox give each floppy to different bank for safekeeping the usa has over banks and thrifts there are not likely to be more than clipper phones sold ross xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu gatech howland reston ans net noc near net uunet vnet ibm com from russotto vnet ibm com matthew russotto message id almaden ibm com date fri apr edt newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org ieee subject re once tapped your code is no good any more disclaimer this posting represents the poster views not those of ibm news software ureply references c5so84 hxv demon co uk visicom com rubin dsg4 dse beckman com strnlghtc5who2 fk netcom com lines in strnlghtc5who2 fk netcom com david sternlight writes in the clipper case representative body of experts is going to be allowed to audit it and we ll have assurances maybe even from the president that other than the escrowed keys there are no back doors while some may not have confidence in that am not among them wow assurances from the president why those are almost as good as campaign promises don see why anyone wouldn have confidence in those xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet pipex ibmpcug mantis news from mathew mathew mantis co uk newsgroups sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy clipper subject re new encryption message id c0 rusnews w165w mantis co uk date fri apr references apr21 lokkur dexter mi us r4e9d pdo sol tis com apr21 wam umd edu organization mantis consultants cambridge uk newsreader rusnews v1 lines psionic wam umd edu haywood blowme writes additonally spoke with mr melnick about their algorithm he couldn tell me much about their new agorithm because it hasn been patented yet right now the company is afraid that the new clipper chip will put them out of business this is very real possibility so they really need help in stopping the clipper chip from becoming standard if they re planning on patenting an algorithm then hope they go out of business as quickly as possible and you can tell them said that sure many other readers of these newsgroups will agree too mathew xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt privacy clipper newsgroups sci crypt alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net uunet mdisea mothost lmpsbbs comm mot com dougb from dougb comm mot com doug bank subject re revised technical summary of clipper chip reply to dougb ecs comm mot com organization motorola land mobile products sector date fri apr gmt message id apr23 lmpsbbs comm mot com references apr21 guvax acc georgetown edu sender news lmpsbbs comm mot com net news nntp posting host lines in article apr21 guvax acc georgetown edu denning guvax acc georgetown edu writes the chips are programmed by mykotronx inc which calls them the myk the silicon is supplied by vlsi technology inc they are implemented in micron technology and will initially sell for about each in quantities of or more the price should drop as the technology is shrunk to micron hmmmmmm seems bit expensive how big is the chip what kind of packages will be used volt or volt technology how much current will it draw think there are many practical questions that haven been answered especially since this chip already exists all clipper chips are programmed inside scif secure compartmented information facility which is essentially vault the scif contains laptop computer and equipment to program the chips about chips are programmed during single session the scif is located at mykotronx at the beginning of session trusted agent from each of the two key escrow agencies enters the vault agent enters secret random bit value s1 into the laptop and agent enters secret random bit value s2 these random values serve as seeds to generate unit keys for sequence of serial numbers thus the unit keys are function of secret random bits where each agent knows only ok ve got big problem with all of this how in the world do you expect to sell these chips for even after all the overhead involved in this programming procedure people laptop only chips at time give me break and how long does all of this take even if it is minute per chip it will take the greater part of day to turn out of these things how long do you suppose it will take to program those chips mentioned above this is highly impractical to see how the chip is used imagine that it is embedded in the at telephone security device as it will be suppose call someone and we both have such device after pushing button to start secure conversation my security device will negotiate an bit session key with the device at the other end so where can find info on this at device what kind of vocoder does it use does it require isdn phone lines if not is it full duplex how does it sound what kind of synchronization scheme is used will all other little black boxes have to conform to at ts choices of protocol etc will anybody else be allowed to build boxes that conform to these specifications doug bank private systems division dougb ecs comm mot com motorola communications sector dougb nwu edu schaumburg illinois dougb casbah acns nwu edu xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy comp org eff talk path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com decwrl decwrl waikato ac nz aukuni ac nz cs18 cs aukuni ac nz pgut1 newsgroups sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy comp org eff talk subject re the secret source of that announcement message id apr23 cs aukuni ac nz from pgut1 cs aukuni ac nz peter gutmann date fri apr gmt references apr21 leland stanford edu gradyc5uamw bng netcom com r3vjhinn5iq dns1 nmsu edu c5x2xs ef0 lerami lerctr org organization computer science dept university of auckland lines in c5x2xs ef0 lerami lerctr org merlin lerami lerctr org david hayes writes ok andrew ll provide some evidence friend of mine worked for an electronics manufacturer on with west coast office they routinely sold equipment to the japanese one day the japanese started showing up with discount demands that were amazingly close to the cost to manufacture the products this company routinely sent most of the manufacturing data to the field offices the japanese had simply intercepted it so my friend the computer systems admin came up with solution he started sending the data out double block encrypted with des two days after this new distribution plan was implemented the president of the company got visit from pair of government agents they told him to knock it off the president gave in since his company did considerable business with the federal government now if the government wasn monitoring the communications how would they even know that the encryption system was installed further since encryp tion isn illegal and des certainly isn what is the basis of the government cease and desist demand something similar has happened to me ages ago when we were working on pgp we used to send short messages about development issues or simply to test new features around now at this time pgp and certainly the newer version was unknown over here suddenly the admin at the site was using received request that stop sending encrypted email now there is almost no way that some automatic scanner could have found this since they wouldn have known about pgp they must have checked for unknown data types in the message tried to unscramble it found they couldn get past the pem armour part and then contacted the sysadmin and asked me to stop luckily the current email carriers are less picky about what goes over their networks in case people think email scanning doesn take place can assure you that it is done regularly by many sites usually not by government agencies or at least not that know of but by local administrators who for reasons of their own have decided to monitor all communications sure you can all think of whole mess of reasons stop hackers terrorists child pornographers drug dealers evil commies whatever there have been several occasions when ve got people into trouble simply by including the traditional nsa bait in message don try it any more now friend of mine was once picked up for mentioning the name of the uk town of scunthorpe hint look for words embedded in it sure there are many more examples of this happening in fact if anyone has any examples appreciate hearing from them could use them as ammunition during talks on privacy issues peter pgut1 cs aukuni ac nz gutmann cs aukuni ac nz gutmann kosmos wcc govt nz peterg kcbbs gen nz peter nacjack gen nz peter phlarnschlorpht nacjack gen nz in order of preference one of em bound to work don vote you ll only encourage them xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt security pgp alt privacy clipper sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net europa eng gtefsd com fs7 ece cmu edu news sei cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu andrew cmu edu postman from lyle seaman transarc com newsgroups alt security pgp alt privacy clipper alt fan david sternlight sci crypt subject re new encryption date fri apr organization carnegie mellon pittsburgh pa lines message id sfpzmnz0bwwbmdwhuc transarc com references apr21 wam umd edu strnlghtc5wc3z erw netcom com apr22 zip eecs umich edu c5wjca bm world std com nntp posting host po2 andrew cmu edu in reply to c5wjca bm world std com martin world std com martin hannigan writes hello am the david sternlight keeper of the faq unfortuantely cannot find it at the present time cool it will you let people form their own opinions even mr sternlight might be right sometime and you guys are setting things up so that the only way he can regain any credibility is to renounce his previous statements and move towards the mainstream of net opinion this does not bespeak tolerance imo david sternlight net police indeed lyle transarc grant street the gulf tower pittsburgh newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net torn nott dgbt rick dgbt doc ca debra dgbt doc ca jhan from jhan debra dgbt doc ca jerry han subject re overreacting was re once tapped your code is no good any more message id apr23 rick dgbt doc ca sender news rick dgbt doc ca nntp posting host debra dgbt doc ca organization communications research centre ottawa references apr22 rick dgbt doc ca rens apr22153654 stimpys imsi com distribution na date fri apr gmt lines in article rens apr22153654 stimpys imsi com rens imsi com rens troost writes in this giant bally ho over this clipper chip noticed rather disturbing trend in some of the mail and posts ve tossing back and forth me too tendency on the part of some people to hide their head in the sand never advocated hiding in the sand advocating peaceful solution while peaceful solution is possible unless you want blood on your hands how many people do you want jailed for their convictions for their insistence on real privacy why sit by quietly while the preconditions for real civil war are put in place by short sighted government read the above everybody is jumping up and down and screaming about it and worried that people are going to reach for their hammers and rifles before their pens and paper the terminal is mightier than the pen type corrected really guess you mean the revolution how about england india mexico france holland english revolution what revolution they never had one india if they could get around their religion restrictions mexico point taken forgot about this one france napoleon bonepart would have something to say about this holland didn know they had one won comment because don know enough that not very good odds you are misinformed but this whole issue is off the topic actually consider the issue on topic when you start gambling with fire crackers sooner or later somebody is going to lose hand when the cops kick in your door for using pgp tell them that all we re doing here is exercising our so called rapidly narrowing right to free speech fine exercise the right to free speech that great but don resort to armed violence until there no other possibility perhaps you should talk to the government about that or are you disciple of david the cops are our friends sternlight no believe there are bad cops and good cops there are bad people and good people and all that grey inbetween have had the pleasure of knowing police officer who did his best to uphold the laws he swore to defend have also seen what happens when police power is abused don generalize in either direction it just causes problems the implied threat of the illegalization of private crypto the not so subtle subtext of the clipper announcement is what worries me don want my children growing up in police state me either nice can of worms ain it jerry han crc doc div of behavioural research jhan debra dgbt doc ca these are my opinions and my opinions only proud and frozen member of the mighty warriors band memories of those ve left behind still ringing in my ears genesis newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net torn nott dgbt rick dgbt doc ca debra dgbt doc ca jhan from jhan debra dgbt doc ca jerry han subject re overreacting was re once tapped your code is no good any more message id apr23 rick dgbt doc ca sender news rick dgbt doc ca nntp posting host debra dgbt doc ca organization communications research centre ottawa references apr22 rick dgbt doc ca bu edu distribution na date fri apr gmt lines in article bu edu uni acs bu edu shaen bernhardt writes the point remains more and more see the government slowly washing away privacy even unwittingly do you think will ever live in soceity that issues smart cards to citizens at birth do you think will live in soceity that insists register my crypto keys so they can keep track of what saying even if there is no evidence of my guilt do you think will ever live in soceity that seeks to meddle in the affairs of its citizenry without recourse of any kind tired of it there is imho no compromise with an administration that seeks to implement these proposals under the guise of enhancing privacy more than the proposals themselves read the language of the press releases the obvious deception involved in presenting these pieces to the public and am sickened am revolted am repulsed perhaps even of this country could care less about the clipper chip the wiretap bill the smart card because they are so entrapped in the rhetoric of the clinton administration this saddens and frightens me am conserveative believe it or not law and order conserveative but the move to centralized authoratarian regime really scares me mostly because know you cant go far wrong underestimating the intelligence of the american people tell them it going to keep them safe from drug dealers and terrorists and they will let you put cameras in their home even in the wake of waco you find those who support the increasingly totalatarian moves to be quite honest the way things are going call it self defense and dont want mine growning up in the eyes of security camera hours day never advocated not saying what you believe in advocating second thought and calm smart warrior defeats the enemy in ambush on the battlefield smarter warrior defeats the enemy in open warfare on the battlefield the smartest warrior defeats the enemy without using the battlefield think about it uni acs bu edu public keys by finger and or request public key archives pgp public keys pgp iastate edu sovereignty is the sign of brutal past fight clinton wiretap chip df610670f2467b99 de2b5c3749148c crypto is not crime ask me how jerry han crc doc div of behavioural research jhan debra dgbt doc ca these are my opinions and my opinions only proud and frozen member of the mighty warriors band memories of those ve left behind still ringing in my ears genesis xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt security pgp alt privacy clipper comp protocols kerberos sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net europa eng gtefsd com fs7 ece cmu edu news sei cmu edu bb3 andrew cmu edu andrew cmu edu postman from lyle seaman transarc com newsgroups alt security pgp alt privacy clipper comp protocols kerberos sci crypt subject re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip date fri apr organization carnegie mellon pittsburgh pa lines message id afpzsul0bwwbidwjdb transarc com references apr20 ulysses att com apr21 lokkur dexter mi us c5uvn4 mf7 austin ibm com strnlghtc5wcmo fx5 netcom com cmm jon gode ifi uio no nntp posting host po5 andrew cmu edu in reply to cmm jon gode ifi uio no jon lnes jon ifi uio no writes person know belonging to research lab of rivate company claimed to me during priavte conversation that given the equipment in his lab he could crack kerberos ticket in minutes to an hour he had access to rather powerful des hardware but not of an extraordinare kind believe the attack was possible because of the amount of known plaintext in the ticket which itself constitutes small message this was two years ago that would be v4 ticket presumably not v5 ticket the v4 ticket format can even be complicated several more orders of magnitude lyle transarc grant street the gulf tower pittsburgh xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt security pgp alt privacy clipper sci crypt newsgroups alt security pgp alt privacy clipper alt fan david sternlight sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc cs utexas edu uunet world martin from martin world std com martin hannigan subject re new encryption message id c5xxsf z8 world std com organization twisted pair consulting boston ma references apr22 zip eecs umich edu c5wjca bm world std com sfpzmnz0bwwbmdwhuc transarc com date fri apr gmt lines in article sfpzmnz0bwwbmdwhuc transarc com lyle seaman transarc com writes martin world std com martin hannigan writes hello am the david sternlight keeper of the faq unfortuantely cannot find it at the present time cool it will you let people form their own opinions even mr sternlight might be right sometime and you guys are setting things up so that the only way he can regain any credibility is to renounce his previous statements and move towards the mainstream of net opinion this does not bespeak tolerance imo david sternlight net police indeed lyle transarc grant street the gulf tower pittsburgh hopefully he doesnt take it personal martin hannigan twisted pair consulting mac ibm pc mainframe unix xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt comp org eff talk misc legal computing path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net transfer stratus com ellisun sw stratus com cme from cme ellisun sw stratus com carl ellison newsgroups sci crypt comp org eff talk misc legal computing subject strong encryption date apr gmt organization stratus computer software engineering lines distribution world message id r90jt v9 transfer stratus com nntp posting host ellisun sw stratus com just posted this reply to comp risks answering risks digest summary re mark seecof key escrow references cmm risks chiron csl sri com from mark seecof marks wimsey latimes com subject key escrow clipper chip risks advances in digital computing have made it possible for ordinary people to use powerful machine cipher techniques it is tempting albeit chauvinistic to believe that we have new situation here thanks to our pet computers this is not true david kahn the codebreakers history of cryptography makes two things obvious cryptography is spontaneous invention of private human individuals and has been going on for thousands of years teen age slang and cipher inventions provide modern example of this spontaneous creation the systems people created on their own were roughly as secure as and sometimes more secure than those used by military and diplomatic users of that time although they seem very simple and insecure today in places the bible used more complex simple substitution than caesar did for his military dispatches but before caesar commend kahn book to all who might be interested disclaimer all opinions expressed are my own of course carl ellison cme sw stratus com stratus computer inc m3 bkw tel fairbanks boulevard marlborough ma fax xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net news centerline com uunet mcsun sun4nl tuegate tue nl blade stack urc tue nl johan from johan blade stack urc tue nl johan wevers newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org ieee subject re once tapped your code is no good any more date apr gmt organization department of physics eindhoven university of technology lines message id r909s s8q tuegate tue nl references c5so84 hxv demon co uk rubin dsg4 dse beckman com strnlghtc5who2 fk netcom com almaden ibm com nntp posting host blade stack urc tue nl russotto vnet ibm com matthew russotto writes in the clipper case representative body of experts is going to be allowed to audit it and we ll have assurances maybe even from the president that other than the escrowed keys there are no back doors while some may not have confidence in that am not among them wow assurances from the president why those are almost as good as campaign promises don see why anyone wouldn have confidence in those don think mr clinton can even understand the technical details of the clipper encryption scheme so his assurances are of no value at al if he gives them he just says what panel of experts told him if lived in the usa would hope those experts were not paid by the fill here you favorite letter combination wevers the only nature of reality is physics johan stack urc tue nl xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp org eff talk alt privacy clipper sci crypt newsgroups comp org eff talk alt privacy clipper sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net gatech ukma morgan from morgan engr uky edu wes morgan subject re have seen the lobby and it is us message id c5xxga gav ms uky edu sender morgan ms uky edu wes morgan organization university of kentucky engineering computing center references apr21 eff org apr22 uc msc edu apr22 yuma acns colostate edu date fri apr gmt lines ns111310 lance colostate edu nathaniel sammons wrote if some kind soul out there would write letter and upload it to the net everyone could capture it print it out and snail mail it out to their local congressional critter btw working on one you should realize that form letters are the worst way to influence your congresscritters exact copies are routinely placed on the lowest rung of the opinion ladder if you want to write and think you should take the time to really write letter things to emphasize it been said that usenet is available to the technical elite the techies at corporate sites and universi ties emphasize that you are part of the group that will be making developing using clinton data superhighway explain how you are intimately familiar with both computing and data communications if this is the case don call your self an expert after wiring in bps modem this will distinguish your letter from the random flamers don turn it into braggadocio just tell them that you know the technical sides of the issue don overdo jargon and gobbledygook remember your letter will be first read in all likelihood by staffer who may even be college student if they don understand it your views won even make the running total sheets be concise don ramble rants are definitely out of place cite references if necessary but only use accepted references like academic journals my neighbor jim is not real refer ence unfortunately very few congresscritters really understand electronic communications encourage them to pick up access to compuserve america online or one of the free nets offer to send them samples if you are in position to do so offer them or their staffers back in the home state access to your systems offer to give demonstration the next time they re in town your offer to get personally involved in helping them will give your opinions more credence in addition to sending mail to your representatives send mail to the members of the committee or subcommittee that is dealing with the issue if your congresscritter isn on the committee they can be of much help until the matter comes to the floor wes ps suggest drawing analogies between digital communication and the more traditional media but usenet doesn have decent track record in the analogy department rachel elizabeth morgan am oh yeah can be reached as pounds ounces despite coming weeks early morgan engr uky edu to netters who gave constant encouragement and prayer thanks for everything path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu uunet pipex ibmpcug mantis news from mathew mathew mantis co uk newsgroups sci crypt subject re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only message id x7 rusnews w165w mantis co uk date fri apr references almaden ibm com r0ausinni01 senator bedfellow mit edu r4iau g44 sunb ocs mq edu au organization mantis consultants cambridge uk newsreader rusnews v1 lines ifarqhar laurel ocs mq edu au ian farquhar writes hmmm also wonder what intergraph thinks about the use of the name clipper for this device not to mention computer associates ll have to be careful to stop telling people clipper programmer they might lynch me mathew xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp org eff talk sci crypt alt rush limbaugh alt fan rush limbaugh path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu ogicse henson n9045178 from n9045178 henson cc wwu edu sean dean newsgroups comp org eff talk sci crypt alt rush limbaugh alt fan rush limbaugh subject re does rush read his mail message id apr23 henson cc wwu edu date apr gmt article henson apr23 references apr22 uc msc edu apr22 yuma acns colostate edu apr22 nynexst com r8lokinne95 uwm edu distribution inet organization western washington university lines rick ee uwm edu rick miller writes rsilvers nynexst com robert silvers writes send something to rush linbaugh about clinton taking away our right to privacy and how if the govt standard takes off only people with lots of money drug dealers will be able to justify des stuff he will slam clinton for this on the air rob seem to recall rush saying that he has compuserve account if anyone wants to mail him all we need is his account number and then we could mail him via gateway by using dot instead of comma like so compuserve com this is not his address so does anyone know his mail address he says he uses it all the time wonder if he reads alt fan rush limbaugh his ego is big enough rick miller rick ee uwm edu ricxjo discus mil wi us ricxjo muelisto send postcard get one back enposxtigu bildkarton kaj vi ricevos alion ve heard he doesn read alt fan rush but have no idea of compuserve mail address xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee sci crypt newsgroups alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net noc near net nic umass edu umassd edu hshubs from hshubs cis umassd edu howard shubs subject re overreacting was re once tapped your code is no good any more message id c5y2sq ij8 umassd edu sender usenet umassd edu usenet news system organization university of massachusetts dartmouth references apr22 rick dgbt doc ca fplpdh0bwwbedwenj transarc com distribution na date fri apr gmt lines in fplpdh0bwwbedwenj transarc com lyle seaman transarc com writes look we collectively have the power to throw the bums out but we don use it we clearly don need to go burning things down but we clearly do need to throw at least some of the bums out unfortunately the bums have learned to target only small groups of people at single time so the masses won react and throw them out eventually the masses will react unless the bums cease their relentless encroachment on liberty and despoilment of the economy the sooner it happens the less the damages will be don want to live in war zone either want to see the bums thrown out before they do some real damage before they do some real damage you haven been paying attention it seems the so called war on drugs has already done major damage to the us constitution howard shubs hshubs bix com for to win victories in the denim adept hshubs cis umassd edu battles is not the acme of skill xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp org eff talk sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu pitt edu gatech howland reston ans net noc near net news bbn com levin from levin bbn com joel levin newsgroups comp org eff talk sci crypt subject re does rush read his mail message id ltg78dinnds3 news bbn com date apr gmt references apr22 uc msc edu apr22 yuma acns colostate edu apr22 nynexst com followup to comp org eff talk lines nntp posting host fred bbn com rsilvers nynexst com robert silvers writes send something to rush linbaugh about clinton taking away our right to privacy and how if the govt standard takes off only people with lots of money drug dealers will be able to justify des stuff he will slam clinton for this on the air he ll slam clinton for anything at all on the air just do not understand why he remains so popular he ll take piece of video of clinton walking along find frame in which clinton wrinkles his nose say freeze on it and blow it up full screen and then rant for five minutes on how no one could possibly trust someone with such face and such beady greedy little eyes ve seen this on his tv show it was around the time of the inauguration can anyone call this stuff legitimate hate to say informed commentary how can anyone with half brain in his or her head continue to watch it the american tv watching and guess radio listening public never ceases to amaze me oops have just inadvertently answered my own question myself only see it when run across it every couple months when channel surfing late at night the longest ve been able to stand him was about minutes apologies for stripping the alt fan rush groups from the newsgroups line the software here apparently rejects anything with groups we don carry and we don carry those also removed sci crypt from followups nets levin bbn com there were sweetheart roses on yancey wilmerding pots bureau that morning wide eyed and distraught she n1mnf stood with all her faculties rooted to the floor perelman xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp org eff talk alt privacy clipper sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net transfer stratus com ellisun sw stratus com cme from cme ellisun sw stratus com carl ellison newsgroups comp org eff talk alt privacy clipper sci crypt subject re organized lobbying for cryptography date apr gmt organization stratus computer software engineering lines distribution inet message id r96lc transfer stratus com references apr2003 silverton berkeley edu apr20 husc3 harvard edu apr21 gems vcu edu nntp posting host ellisun sw stratus com in article apr21 gems vcu edu langford gems vcu edu writes second amendment gives us the right to keep and bear arms strong cryptography is arms according to the government that why it so hard to export therefore we have constituitional right to strong cryptography better think is our right peacably to assemble have right to meet you in park and talk privately have right to see if anyone is nearby listening in cyberspace cryptography gives us right to assemble with control over who overhears us disclaimer all opinions expressed are my own of course carl ellison cme sw stratus com stratus computer inc m3 bkw tel fairbanks boulevard marlborough ma fax xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt comp security misc path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc lkimes from lkimes alshain usc edu lance moof kimes newsgroups sci crypt comp security misc subject re overreacting was re once tapped your code is no good any more date apr organization university of southern california los angeles ca lines sender lkimes alshain usc edu distribution na message id r97dq f05 alshain usc edu references apr22 rick dgbt doc ca bu edu nntp posting host alshain usc edu in article bu edu uni acs bu edu shaen bernhardt writes am conserveative believe it or not law and order conserveative but the move to centralized authoratarian regime really scares me mostly because know you cant go far wrong underestimating the intelligence of the american people tell them it going to keep them safe from drug dealers and terrorists and they will let you put cameras in their home there is one point like to make that most people seem to have forgotten that is that one of the underlining principles in the constitution is distrust of governmental authority and control all those checks balances is because they realize that you should distrust those in power what everyone seems to have forgotten as well is the original reason that the bill of rights guaranteed the right to bear arms it inclusion was not to allow you to protect yourself against other citizens but to prevent the government from taking away your only means of protecting yourself from an armed and aggressive government its hard to oppress your citizenry when its armed against you am not fanatic retired naval officer because have spent so much time defending it perhaps understand its purpose as well as its plan lance kimes xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp org eff talk sci crypt alt rush limbaugh alt fan rush limbaugh path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu cs utexas edu tamsun tamu edu zeus tamu edu r1b6116 from r1b6116 zeus tamu edu mr weather newsgroups comp org eff talk sci crypt alt rush limbaugh alt fan rush limbaugh subject re does rush read his mail date apr cdt organization texas university academic computing services lines distribution inet message id apr199312294241 zeus tamu edu references apr22 uc msc edu apr22 yuma acns colostate edu apr22 nynexst com apr23 henson cc wwu edu nntp posting host zeus tamu edu news software vax vms vnews n9045178 henson cc wwu edu sean dean writes other posts deleted ve heard he doesn read alt fan rush but have no idea of compuserve mail address does anyone have rush limbaugh mail address is there anyone out there on compuserve who might be able to look it up or otherwise find it maybe it would be impossible but thought should at least ask mr weather r1b6116 zeus tamu edu ken blair path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov news claremont edu ucivax news service uci edu beckman com dsg4 dse beckman com rubin newsgroups sci crypt subject re write to clinton message id rubin dsg4 dse beckman com from rubin dsg4 dse beckman com arthur rubin date apr gmt references r74a4 h2t transfer stratus com organization beckman instruments inc nntp posting host dsg4 dse beckman com lines in r74a4 h2t transfer stratus com cme ellisun sw stratus com carl ellison writes ve been reading the sci crypt alt privacy clipper and comp org eff talk discussions about the clipper chip and find as usual that most of us think alike so there lot of repitition if each of these messages were sent to clinton as well as to the net or instead of to the net we might actually have some effect mcimail com white house ve already written char commentary from my mci mail account so can be accused of being hacker arthur rubin rubin dsg4 dse beckman com work beckman instruments brea mcimail com compuserve com arthur pnet01 cts com personal my opinions are my own and do not represent those of my employer path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc helleset from helleset solar usc edu tor helleseth newsgroups sci crypt subject program eurocrypt may lofthus norway date apr organization university of southern california los angeles ca lines sender helleset solar usc edu distribution world message id r9afn jep solar usc edu nntp posting host solar usc edu program eurocrypt may lofthus norway general chair kaare presttun email eurocrypt93 alcatel no program chair tor helleseth department of informatics university of bergen bergen norway email torh ii uib no monday may session authentication chair seberry welcome and opening remarks on the relation between codes and codes correcting independent errors johansson smeets lund university sweden and kabatianskii institute for problems of information transmission russia optimal authentication systems safavi naini and tombak university of wollongong australia coffee or tea session public key chair odlyzko factoring integers using simd sieves dixon princeton university usa and lenstra bellcore usa new elliptic curve based analogue of rsa demytko telecom research laboratories australia weaknesses of public key cryptosystem based on factorization of finite groups stern ens france lunch session block ciphers chair de santis differentially uniform mappings for cryptography nyberg technical university of vienna austria on permutations against differential cryptanalysis beth and ding eiss university of karlsruhe germany two new classes of bent functions carlet inria france boolean functions satisfying higher order strict avalanche condition cusick suny buffalo usa coffee or tea session secret sharing chair desmedt size of shares and probability of cheating in threshold schemes carpentieri de santis and vaccaro university of salerno italy nonperfect secret sharing schemes and matroids kurosawa okada sakano ogata and tsujii tokyo institute of technology japan tuesday may session streamciphers chair helleseth from the memoars of norwegian cryptolog selmer university of bergen norway invited talk on the linear complexity of products of shift register sequences gottfert and niderreiter austrian academy of sciences vienna austria coffee or tea session streamciphers ii chair gollman resynchronisation weaknesses in synchronous stream ciphers daemen govaerts and vandewalle esat ku leuven belgium blind synchronization of sequences with even span games and rushanan mitre usa on constructions and nonlinearity of correlation immune functions seberry zhang and zheng university of wollongong australia lunch session digital signatures chair schnorr practical and provable secure release of secret and exchange of signatures damgard aarhus university denmark subliminal communication is easy using the dsa simmons can oss be repaired naccache gemplus france coffee or tea session protocols chair kurosawa limitations of logical analysis of cryptographic protocols boyd and mao university of manchester united kingdom practical anonymous and secure voting scheme itoh park and kurosawa tokyo institute of technology japan untransferable rights in client independent server environment domingo ferrer university of barcelona spain interactive hashing simplifies zero knowledge protocol design ostrovsky uc berkeley usa venkatesan bellcore usa and yung ibm watson usa rump session chair ingemarsson accepted paper security in digital mobile communication systems park kurosawa okamoto and tsujii tokyo institute of technology japan wednesday may session hash functions chair preneel one way accumulators decentralized alternative to digital signatures benaloh and de mare clarkson university usa some attacks on the arl hash function damgard and knudsen aarhus university denmark collisions for the compression function of md5 den boer and bosselaers esat ku leuven belgium how to find and avoid collisions for the knapsack hash function patarin bull cp8 france coffee or tea session payment systems chair damgard single term off line coins ferguson cwi amsterdam the netherlands improved privacy in wallets with observers cramer cwi amsterdam the netherlands and pedersen aarhus university denmark how to prevent the mafia fraud using distance bounding protocols brands and chaum cwi amsterdam the netherlands lunch session cryptanalysis chair simmons on the distribution of characteristics in bijective mappings connor university of waterloo canada on the security of the idea block cipher meier htl switzerland linear cryptanalysis method for des cipher matsui mitsubishi japan new types of cryptanalytic attacks using related keys biham technion israel coffee or tea session protocols ii chair landrock reconciliation on secret key through public discussion brassard and salvail university of montreal canada global unpredictable bit generation without broadcast beaver and so penn state university usa iacr business meeting keywords xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy comp org eff talk newsgroups sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy comp org eff talk path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc sdd hp com ux1 cso uiuc edu news cso uiuc edu uxa cso uiuc edu azoghlin from azoghlin uxa cso uiuc edu very old freshman vof subject re the secret source of that announcement date fri apr gmt message id c5y5vd avj news cso uiuc edu distribution inet references r3vjhinn5iq dns1 nmsu edu gradyc5unp0 d21 netcom com apr22 colorado edu sender usenet news cso uiuc edu net noise owner organization university of illinois at urbana lines bear tigger cs colorado edu bear giles writes wish them luck in figuring out who am based on that information they can probably figure out liberal with technical degree but humanistic interests from common thread throughout my posts but that describes fair portion of the users of internet sounds like you are the brother of sibble to me hey that wasn nice oh shut up posting now both of you pipe down or will take control of the arms and sock you in the mouth xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt privacy clipper newsgroups sci crypt alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com hp cv hp pcd hp vcd johne from johne vcd hp com john eaton subject re suggestions for escrow agencies was re more technical details sender news vcd hp com news user message id c5y746 vcd hp com date fri apr gmt references apr19 lambda msfc nasa gov organization hewlett packard vcd newsreader tin pl5 lines paul robichaux robichau lambda msfc nasa gov wrote as private citizen would feel much more secure in my person and papers knowing that an organization committed to individual civil liberties the aclu and the nra come to mind was safeguarding half of my key both the aclu and the nra are resistent to government pressure by the simple expedient fact that they are not supported funded or overtly controlled by the government thats one problem that has so far been overlooked these two escrow agencies will have to create secure database and service the input and output of keys who pays for this if they refuse an illegal request from some congressman to deliver key can their budget by cut to punish them will congress be forced to fund them forever the problem is that laws can change congress may pass law setting up an escrow agency with instructions that keys are private some future congress may change that law suppose pre nazi germany had clipper system do you think the escrow agencies would have told hitler that he could not have the keys without valid court order in effect you must set up escrow agencies as fourth branch of the goverment and isolate them from any outside interferance they will be able to directly tap into federal funds with no accountability to anyone except through court challenge john eaton hp vcd johne xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu comp org eff talk alt privacy clipper sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net transfer stratus com ellisun sw stratus com cme from cme ellisun sw stratus com carl ellison newsgroups comp org eff talk alt privacy clipper sci crypt subject re have seen the lobby and it is us date apr gmt organization stratus computer software engineering lines distribution inet message id r9av2 bg6 transfer stratus com references apr21 magnus acs ohio state edu gfpj4tb0bwwb0dww02 transarc com apr21 eff org nntp posting host ellisun sw stratus com in article apr21 eff org charles gross acg eff org writes the nra is successful because among number of things on the drop of hat they can get congresspersons office flooded with postcards faxes and phone calls certainly with our way cool internet powers of organization we can act in the same way if such action is appropriate don know about you but have nearly forgotten how to generate paper mail if had mail to congress would have written many letters by now haven written one yet as it turns out writing on paper is such complicated job for those of us hooked on our way cool internet disclaimer all opinions expressed are my own of course carl ellison cme sw stratus com stratus computer inc m3 bkw tel fairbanks boulevard marlborough ma fax xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy clipper newsgroups sci crypt alt security pgp alt privacy clipper path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu das news harvard edu noc near net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu linac att att allegra ulysses ulysses smb from smb research att com steven bellovin subject re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate message id apr23 ulysses att com date fri apr gmt references apr20 ulysses att com cmm jon gode ifi uio no organization at bell laboratories lines in article cmm jon gode ifi uio no jon lnes jon ifi uio no writes person know belonging to research lab of rivate company claimed to me during priavte conversation that given the equipment in his lab he could crack kerberos ticket in minutes to an hour he had access to rather powerful des hardware but not of an extraordinare kind believe the attack was possible because of the amount of known plaintext in the ticket which itself constitutes small message this was two years ago des is no longer usable for encryption of really sensitive data for lot of purposes however it is still very adequate this sounds an awful lot like password guesser not weakness in des merritt and pointed out this weakness in kerberos in paper that came out about years ago in both computer communications review and usenix for that matter it was loudly discussed on the kerberos mailing list even earlier the problem has nothing whatsoever to do with des and everything to do with bad password selection perfectly willing to believe that there are cryptanalytic attacks possible on des quite dubious that private research labs know them and the parameters of brute force attack are quite well established see for example the garon and outerbridge paper in the july cryptologia you re not going to do it in an hour with only rather powerful des hardware ll leave the arithmetic as an exercise for the reader on average you ll need to do trials pick your own parameters for how fast the des engine runs and for how many such engines are used path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net noc near net uunet amdahl key canary kliegel from kliegel key amdahl com james kliegel newsgroups sci crypt subject crypto penpals date apr gmt organization amdahl advanced systems lines distribution world message id r9dbd k72 largo key amdahl com reply to kliegel key amdahl com nntp posting host canary key amdahl com came lurked read the faq now having purchased the recommended books and having taken to heart the advice that one knows nothing about crypto without having done stint as cryptanalyst would like to correspond with people interested in cryptology am working on implementing the cryptanalyst workbench example in booch ood with applications hope to start sending ciphers back and forth so each of us can practice cracking them would like to start with simple ceaser ciphers and progress roughly according to david kahn book of course would be interested in general discussions and math also hope to have some foriegn correspondants so that we can test the response time of the men in the suits ve been hearing so much about unfortunately as product of the american education system only know english looking forward to any and all responses james james kliegel kliegel key amdahl com path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu magnesium club cc cmu edu news sei cmu edu fs7 ece cmu edu europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov news claremont edu ucivax news service uci edu beckman com dsg4 dse beckman com rubin newsgroups sci crypt subject re have seen the lobby and it is us message id rubin dsg4 dse beckman com from rubin dsg4 dse beckman com arthur rubin date apr gmt references apr21 magnus acs ohio state edu gfpj4tb0bwwb0dww02 transarc com apr21 eff org r9av2 bg6 transfer stratus com distribution inet organization beckman instruments inc nntp posting host dsg4 dse beckman com lines in r9av2 bg6 transfer stratus com cme ellisun sw stratus com carl ellison writes in article apr21 eff org charles gross acg eff org writes the nra is successful because among number of things on the drop of hat they can get congresspersons office flooded with postcards faxes and phone calls certainly with our way cool internet powers of organization we can act in the same way if such action is appropriate don know about you but have nearly forgotten how to generate paper mail if had mail to congress would have written many letters by now haven written one yet as it turns out writing on paper is such complicated job for those of us hooked on our way cool internet that what mci mail is for compuserve also has congressgrams tm this is not intended as an advertisement that really is what mci mail was intended for according to their ads arthur rubin rubin dsg4 dse beckman com work beckman instruments brea mcimail com compuserve com arthur pnet01 cts com personal my opinions are my own and do not represent those of my employer newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu gatech howland reston ans net ux1 cso uiuc edu milo mcs anl gov anhep3 hep anl gov mgr from mgr anhep3 hep anl gov dr mike subject clipper freedom comments message id c5yc9n m1 mcs anl gov news software vax vms vnews sender usenet mcs anl gov reply to mgr anhep3 hep anl gov organization argonne national laboratory distribution world date fri apr gmt lines begin pgp signed message gasp ve just spent hours catching up on sci crypt here slow reader guess and really have to put out few comments too first let me flame the famous dave he obviously only years old cut him some slack the joke about clinton crypto drugs slammed me thru the roof nice job guys ve been working on marijuana legalization for over years now clinton actions so far have really helped but because of government action taken against various other groups have developed bit des based on public literature to protect my mailing list the boxes are the critical component and since chose out of based on the key cracking this des is going to tough the reason it slows you down touch is that for each key you try you need to use different set of boxes know it only vector but it sure makes random search pain several marijuana legalization groups have had their mailing lists confiscated when people were charged with drug use sales it not crime to be member of legalization org but you will be watched it really is important to write letter to every official you personally vote for to explain why your privacy is being destroyed by the cripple chip amazingly enough they do listen when they get enough mail the doonsbery jokes about nra postcards are real and the imi illinois marijuana initiative has grown to the point where we are seeing some changes it pretty clear that all the hullabaloo is really about the implimentation decision being made behind our backs as vesselin points out this was common practice in communist regimes and may be again depending on how the vote goes but just as criminals have guns and law abiding citizens don and criminals like me have marijuana and law abiding subjects don criminals like me will have secure crypto while law abiding robots don pgp is nice but as time goes on we all can do better and to save our hides we will someone posted an excerpt from machiavelli he my favorite dude years ago he saw clearly how people are and tried to explain that to princes who wanted people to obey one section not quoted ve got the prince at home so ll just paraphrase had to do with conquring free city the only way is to completly destroy it failing that you must appoint locals to high positions and accept the people customs even after years of oppression people will remember their heratige and rise up to overthrow the oppresive government and he gave an example and that was years before thomas jefferson there were questions about watching traffic only interesting traffic is watched stuff that goes overseas and comes back stuff with keywords like marijauana cryptography nsa certain individuals who are known subversives etc it is easy enough to store all that traffic so if you know how to be subversive how to be unseen it pretty easy to go unnoticed for long time the stronger your crypto system and the less you re noticed the better your chances of developing an organization which can diseminate truth to the masses which gets me to the thread about public encrypted conference that just silly the first thing the feds do is send in an infiltrator like dave and they know what you re doing it will be fun for teenagers and college students but for the real world it pretty pointless crypto is useful for more things than hiding where you get your marijuana guns drugs and crypto do have some commonality there are people in government who want you to obey their rules as lundquist says in alt drugs live free or don machiavelli pointed out that just how most people actually live inspite of appearences to the contrary it true that the decision to shove the clipper not the same thing as intergraph down our throats violates the principles of what the was founded on but the government is full of idiotic robots called bureaucrats and there less to worry about than one might think only really innocent read naive subjects of the will be hurt by this the rest of us criminals will live in secure freedom de toqueville pointed out years ago that the tyranny of the majority will be mitigated by the mediocrity of the government and given what see government officials doing where work argonne national lab the level of stupidity makes dave look smart patience persistence truth work dvader hemp imi hep anl gov dr mike home mrosing igc org begin pgp signature version iqbvagubk9hetk3mm e84rlhaqfv gh9exvzfxbnr4x0btg2nqixb5 zmaxt289b g4qjtsv8mszmrzu1dcj8eliq37bwx53jatbh9u4b biqmgkipzhcma s3hf end pgp signature xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu sci crypt alt security comp org ieee newsgroups sci crypt alt security comp org ieee path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu linac att att out cbnewsh cbnewsh cb att com wcs from wcs anchor ho att com bill stewart subject re once tapped your code is no good any more organization mary ellen carter salvage crew distribution na date fri apr gmt message id wcs apr23144919 rainier att com in reply to strnlght netcom com message of thu apr gmt references c5so84 hxv demon co uk visicom com rubin dsg4 dse beckman com strnlghtc5who2 fk netcom com sender news cbnewsh cb att com netnews administrator nntp posting host rainier ho att com lines in article strnlghtc5who2 fk netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes wouldn think so asking people to trust secret algorithm seems unsound to me maybe so but it quite common there are millions of macintosh users who have no idea what in apple patented roms many have modems connected how do you know all your business secrets aren being stolen answer because you trust apple because if any such attempt however sophicsticated came out it would destroy apple credibility forever then there also because it not secret if want to can go look at apple copyrighted roms in mac so they re not keeping any secrets you don even have to pry the top off the chip and use an electron microscope you just have to read the data in memory and see if you can figure out what it means motorola object code isn all that obscure yes it copyrighted so can go selling copies or using the copy myself but can see it and disassemble it they re not asking me to trust their honesty they re asking me to trust the quality of their assembly language programming but can see for myself what the performance price and crashes day are nsa an organization not known for its honesty or openness is asking me to trust them with my privacy but they won trust me feh pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com at bell labs m312 holmdel nj no from new jersey only work in cyberspace white house commect line fax xref cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu alt privacy clipper sci crypt newsgroups alt privacy clipper sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu swrinde network ucsd edu qualcom qualcomm com qualcom rdippold from rdippold qualcomm com ron asbestos dippold subject clipper not good enough for government message id rdippold qualcom originator rdippold qualcom qualcomm com sender news qualcomm com nntp posting host qualcom qualcomm com organization qualcomm inc san diego ca date fri apr gmt lines there been some discussion very recently as to whether the government once again might exempt themselves from something they use to screw us over well from comp dcom telecom from lesreeves attmail com subject odds ends in the news the clipper chip device introduced yesterday by at may not be suitable for government use says house telecom subcommittee chairman markey in letter to commerce secretary brown markey asked whether the use of the technology could lead to inadvertently increased costs to those companies hoping to serve both the government and private markets markey has ordered brown to answer several questions about security and cost concerns by april communications daily show me guy who afraid to look bad and ll show you guy you can beat every time renee auberjonois newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech swrinde sdd hp com zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu linac att att out cbnewsh cbnewsh cb att com wcs from wcs anchor ho att com bill stewart subject re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only organization mary ellen carter salvage crew date fri apr gmt message id wcs apr23150431 rainier att com in reply to servalan access digex com message of apr references c5qy3m de3 agora rain com r1g82 rui news intercon com apr22 lehman com r7urf ku access digex net sender news cbnewsh cb att com netnews administrator nntp posting host rainier ho att com lines in article apr22 lehman com pmetzger snark shearson com perry metzger writes qualcomm had spare cycles in the dsps for their new cdma digital cellular phones they wanted to put strong crypto into them since they had the capacity the government decided to discourage them you re blowing smoke qualcomm wants to sell to nice lucrative overseas markets like japan and the ec the government told them don do encryption if you ever hope to export this technology the reason that cdma doesn have encryption is not because the men came knocking at qualcomm door it because qualcomm doesn think that the us market for digital cellular is big enough for them this is just the international traffic in arms regulations all over again perry has already stated on the net that qualcomm wanted to sell overseas and the government told them they wouldn be allowed to export so he only blowing the same smoke you are sure they probably could have made us version and non crypto export version and contracted with bulgarian or japanese software house to develop an overseas crypto rom but that getting pretty expensive no cylink sells their phones because they re willing to make different stuff for domestic use vs export qualcomm isn so cylink makes money that capitalism comrade well some people like capitalism and others prefer free enterprise they re different using the government to stifle your competition is capitalist someone out there will build unit to do all this better yet prehaps someone will produce package that turns any box with sound card into secure phone someone this and someone that if you think it so easy why are you whining on the net instead of getting your butt in gear and writing it writing good crypto code is something most good programmers can do writing good new crypto algorithms is very specialized skill developing new voice coding algorithms is also pretty specialized but finding ways to implement the more complex ones when you don have enough horsepower is still fairly hairy stuff once the pentium becomes widespread or the next generation of sound boards has dsps on it suspect we ll see it happen maybe the vanilla soundblaster is enough pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com at bell labs m312 holmdel nj no from new jersey only work in cyberspace white house commect line fax newsgroups sci crypt path cantaloupe srv cs cmu edu rochester udel gatech swrinde sdd hp com zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu linac att att out cbnewsh cbnewsh cb att com wcs from wcs anchor ho att com bill stewart subject re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only organization mary ellen carter salvage crew date fri apr gmt message id wcs apr23151011 rainier att com in reply to strnlght netcom com message of thu apr gmt references apr20 shearson com r47l1inn8gq senator bedfellow mit edu apr22 yuma acns colostate edu strnlghtc5wjag netcom com sender news cbnewsh cb att com netnews administrator nntp posting host rainier ho att com lines in article strnlghtc5wjag netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes doug holland claims tom clancy has provided the recipe for nuclear bombs clancy himself says he has omitted certain crucial steps further how do we know clancy knows rather than repeating what he read or been told in the unclassified domain on the other hand when john aristotle phillips was junior at princeton trying to keep from flunking physics by doing terrific term paper his atom bomb design was good enough that it got classified few of the steps were derived from social engineering the name of the explosive but it was fundamentally sound and did get an the pakistan